Sapphire writes...

Wouldn't it be cool if gargoyles was done in amine?

Aaron writes...

City of Stone, 1-4 mini-ramble.

There so much to address here, I should really dig out my tapes before attacking it, but...

A few things still stick out.

I remember the first time I watched it, and thinking something didn't quite add up with what Demona was saying. Before the advent of mass media, exactly how would Demona get enough people together to make a spell like the one she sold Xanatos on worthwhile?

I remember being really impressed with the scene where MacBeth goes skysurfing, or whatever you want to call it, with the line wrapped around Demona's leg. Really good showcase of exactly how determined, not to say completely mental, MacBeth is at this point. Can you imagine how much it would hurt if Demona did succeed in shaking him off? Even if you're immortal that's gotta suck.

And of course, I did love the double punch D&M give Goliath. (But then, I'm a Demona fan, so watching the big purple guy take one usually amuses me)

Slow writes...

Re: High Noon

I have to say that I was very confused about the three Desdemonas. Until someone mentioned it in Ask Greg I just figured it was the writer wanting to do strange and surreal stuff inside Coldstone's head. The animation was so good I never would've noticed the colour mistake. If it wasn't for this venue, I'd never have known.

"This is diverting." "You don't know the half of it."

Sure, I laughed when I first heard the line accompanied by the expression on Coldstone's face. But when I watched the episode again a few years later, I thought that Macbeth's response may have been a hint (subconsciously, maybe) that the entire situation was a diversion (staged to get the talismans). Am I wrong to think that Mac may not have been as interested in the girl-fight as it sounded?

Todd Jensen writes...

A question about Xanatos as portrayed in "Future Tense". This was the last episode in the series where Xanatos was the antagonist (even though it may not count as such, given that it turned out that it wasn't really Xanatos). And what recently struck me about it was that here Xanatos, for once, was acting in a manner more like a conventional cliched cartoon villain than he did anywhere else in the series. He took over Manhattan by force, enslaved the population and plunged them into poverty and misery, had the city patrolled by Mutate soldiers on the ground and Steel Clan robots in the air, murdered his own son without even an ounce of pity or remorse, and was plotting to seize control over the entire planet. All very evocative of the stereotypical super-villain that one would expect to find in a more conventional animated series.

Also, in this episode, Goliath did (momentarily) "destroy" Xanatos (or the Xanatos Program masquerading as him) in the cyberspace battle (just before it turned out that it was really Lexington operating the Xanatos Program behind the scenes), in what could count as their final battle.

So, was "Future Tense" designed, in part, to trick the audience into thinking that "Gargoyles" was going to end with a more conventional showdown between Goliath and Xanatos, a more stereotypical "final battle", before going on to reveal, almost immediately afterwards (given that "The Gathering" was the story that came immediately after "Future Tense"), the real manner in which the Goliath/Xanatos conflict came to an end (through the two making peace after the gargs helped Xanatos against Oberon)? A kind of "tricking the audience raised on more conventional adventure cartoon series" method similar to that used in "Leader of the Pack" (where it initially seems as if Xanatos is out for revenge, but it turns out that it wasn't the real Xanatos and that the real one had very different and much more practical goals)?

Aaron writes...

High Noon

<<Anyway, Demona's in atypical dress and species. Who knew it was her?>>

(raises hand) Aw c'mon Greg, not even human form and frumpy clothing can hide the radiant beauty that is Demona. ;) But seriously, who else has hair like that?

Random observation: When human-form Demona leaves her hair alone, instead of putting it up in that dreadful restrained thing she wears as Domonique Destine, she looks like a red-haired Puma sister. (Dominion Tank Police, in case you didn't get the ref)

Anonymous writes...

Just a quick comment. Actually, Demona's"sexpot posing at the clock tower when she confronts Elisa did seem in character to me. I always imagined her smugly suggesting, See, even as a human I'm better looking than you. Her subconscious jealousy of Elisa and Goliath's "connection"
and her "I'm better than you are attitude, contirbute to her flagrantly exhibiting herself." Or in the words of the immortal and unknown, "When you've got it flaunt it." Got to love the Japanese animators on this one.

Todd Jensen writes...

My "High Noon" ramble.

It's hard to be certain what my original thoughts were when seeing this one for the first time (given that that was back in 1995), but I feel pretty certain that I didn't recognize Demona in her human form until the dialogue actually named her. (And given that, as you'd pointed out, up till then, I'd only seen her as a human briefly at the end of "The Mirror", it was easy enough not to recognize her).

I don't recall now what I'd thought of the Demona/Macbeth team-up or where the Weird Sisters were all this time when I first saw the episode, though. Maybe I was just accepting the story as it went along without asking that many questions.

I very much liked Hudson's question about the "hit the sack" idiom, and the bit where Hudson and Broadway were reading the newspaper as the link back to "Lighthouse in the Sea of Time". Both struck me as very enjoyable touches.

I sometimes wonder if Officer Morgan will ever realize just how helpful he was to Elisa in helping her gain the strength to face Demona at Belvedere Castle. This may very well count as his biggest moment in the series to date.

The revelation at the end that the Sisters were behind it all, and - more importantly - that the real targets were the Grimorum, the Eye of Odin, and the Phoenix Gate definitely surprised me. One thing that I do remember from my first time seeing the episode was this: for some odd reason, I was under the impression that "the coming battle" that the Sisters mentioned was something slated for the end of the season (Episode 65 or close to it), a grand finale conflict of some sort. Well, it was a big battle, but it took place in "Gargoyles" a lot sooner than I was expecting.

(One little thing that I must admit: a good thing for Demona that she was using the Grimorum to shield herself from prying eyes during the day. I don't think that she would have been too appreciative of the way that male humans might have been looking at her in that outfit as a human if they could have seen her :)

Cassandra writes...

Cassandra writes...
Since stroking hair is gargoyle equilvant to a kiss, all the times Goliath touched Elisa's hair was a kiss? And how long would it take him to get used to kissing with lips?

Just feeling a trifle silly with that thought. But I seem to remember Goliath touching her hair fondly before they noticed or decided to act on the feelings they have for each other.

Greg responds...

Kissing is special, particularly romantic kissing. I'm not sure one wants to "get used to it" ever. It will always be special to Goliath.

And yes, everytime he touched her hair in any intimate way (as opposed to by accident or incidentally) it was the basic equivalent of a kiss. But by the way, it wasn't often.

recorded on 02-15-01

Okay, to clarify what I was talking about I think I was remembering the end of "Deadly Force". Goliath brushes Elisa's hair back when he tells her to sleep.

I didn't mean "getting used to it" to equal "become blaise about it". More like kissing is a feels-great-still-weird-but-I-like-it situation and Goliath would feel more comfortable with gargoyle display's of affection.

I know they're both mature adults and both of them realize there is going to be a lot of compromising and explaining in their relationship. It's just a quirky idea that popped in my head.

Todd Jensen writes...

A little thought I've had for some time, inspired by the occasional protests from this "Gargoyles" fan or that who wanted to see Angela pair up with Brooklyn rather than with Broadway. I've never had any problem with Angela choosing Broadway, and actually think that it works very nicely (not to mention that I don't think that Brooklyn would really have been all that happy with Angela - for one thing, there's the way that he feels about her mother). But there is one thing about this business that has amused me.

Although I've seen a number of protests about Brooklyn not becoming Angela's mate, I haven't seen one case of a "Gargoyles" fan, to date, who wanted Lexington to become Angela's mate. Looks as though Lex doesn't have that much of a fan club :)

Aris Katsaris writes...

Justin> You seem to think that "fat" and "obese" are one and the same. They are *not*. Trust me on this, Broadway isn't obese, not by any definition of the word...

Jim R. writes...

Greg,
Not to be rude, but I read some of your rambles about stuff. What are they SUPPOSED to MEAN?! I can't make heads or tails as to what you're talking about or where you're going with these alternative outcomes...Whatever you're rambling about, trust me, you're beginning to make me think of parallel outcomes for everything I saw in Gargoyles which is MORE like something I'd watch on Star Trek. Now, don't scare me. (And you said you tried to avoid such unstrict storylines which Star Trek producers are famous for.)

Jon writes...

Favorite smart-ass remark:

Faieq writes...
In the Gargoyles Universe, how much truth is there in fortune cookies?

Greg responds...

All cookies are true. Especially Peanut Butter cookies.

(Personally, I've known a few disingenuous peanut butter cookies in my time, so I'm not sure I can back you on this one, Greg)

Good luck regaining your edge!

Jim R. writes...

matt,

I thought the skiff was blown up at first, but i remembered that only happened in the "Future Tense" episode, which I suppose wasn't real to Goliath. But no one could accidently go to Avalon, because one would first have to recite the Latin to reach it. I got you on this one buddy. :)

Durax writes...

City of Stone scenelet>> When Gil crushed the rose, I thought this was to tel the audience that, the scars on his face did more than damage his looks. I thought he had lost his sense of smell too. In my mind this provided even greater cause for him to grow more and more embittered against Demona. I don't think this is what you were intending though, not anymore.

Justin writes...

Greg,
A few weeks ago Anonymous writes
<Are there any female gargoyles who are obese? How about muscular or extremely skinny? Are any females bow-legged?
Are there gargoyles with differnent wing and ear types than the types that were shown on the series?
You know how some gargoyles have a sharp elbow or knee spike that juts out, I was wondering if any gargoyles have them on both knees and elbows because it was always on or the other.>

To which you replied...
<Obese? Not likely, but possible, I guess.

Look, it's all sounding possible.>

Now why is not likely for a gargoyle woman to be obese? Must all of them be fairly skinny like Demona? I don't know man, it seems like a sexist notion of what the female form is supposed to be! Sorry if offends you but with the gargoyles anatomy being similar on the surface, this might boys the neanderthal idea of what female beauty is supposed to be, and girls an impossible standard to live up to. Now don't get me wrong I love the show. Another thing that yerked me. You have mentioned that the original Broadway was going to be a girl. But you changed your minds out of fear of feminist groups being concerned about the evil/fat issue among the two female characters.

Now I would think that feminist groups with all sorts of "agendas" as you put it would love to see a none picture perfect woman in the series. Trust me having the two main female gargoyles in the series model thing didn't exactly endear the show to them I'm sure ;)

Sorry if this sounds like a rant. I just wanted your honest thought on what I've said.

Thank you

Aris Katsaris writes...

More of a ramble (or two) than a question but here goes:
I believe that someone here in Ask Greg compared Xanatos to Prospero- both having magical assistants... Anyway I was thinking around the same lines, trying to compare Xanatos with characters from mythology:

My first thought was Gilgamesh (I'll ramble about him next) but then I thought an even better match: namely Sisyphus. And, god, this guy seems the most Xanatosian character I know (I even imagine him played by Frakes). He's *very* intelligent (him and Ulysses are pretty much the two clever men of Greek mythology); something of a trickster; he's considered to be something of a villain; and finally in certain stories he has even tried to find a way to defeat death. Two times in fact. One of them involved binding Thanatos (or Hades - not sure which) pretty similar to what the Emir did in 'Grief'...

So questions:
1. Any thoughts on the above? :-)
2. Sisyphus was punished pretty severely for what was seen as villainy (namely his trying to cheat death and angering Zeus in general)... Other than the brief (though admittedly great) scare that Oberon gave to Xanatos, do you think that Xanatos will get a comeuppance for his crimes? He's done worse than Sisyphus I think...
3. There's a third question but I'll post it serarately in case Todd thinks it a story idea...

Corrine Blaquen writes...

What nationality is Titania's human form supposed to be?

I find it very cool that you have so much ethinic/racial diversity in the human cast, from Elisa's Native American/African background to Xanatos's half Greek. It's such a fresh change from other cartoon characters with no heritage at all.

I myself am French-American, and I LOVE it that Fox, one of my favorite characters, is half French-American. Thanks, Greg!

matt writes...

Faieq, Goliath said, "I grow tired of this, take whats left of your men and begone!" i think he meant he was tired of that particular battle and i doubt there had been previous encounters with Hakon.

Todd Jensen writes...

My "City of Stone Part Four" ramble.

I hadn't noticed the bit about Bronx responding to Demona's tone of voice, but I think that it is a good point. I know from personal experience that dogs do the same thing in real life. My mother used to sometimes, for a joke, when she was telling off our dog for doing something naughty, add, still in a condemning tone of voice "You're the most beautiful dog in the world", etc., and note the way that he'd hang his head and look guilty at that.

The Chorus music in the battle scenes in 1057 reminded me a lot of the music in the battle scenes in "Excalibur". (Kind of appropriate, actually, given Macbeth's affinity to Arthurian matters in "Gargoyles").

Good analysis on Macbeth's secret council, and I certainly don't think myself that he would have agreed to betray the gargoyles. (And I don't think, for that matter, that it would have worked even if he had; given the fact that the English still attack Castle Moray even after the gargoyles' desertion, and continue to support Canmore against Luach even after the destruction of Demona's clan, I certainly suspect that Bodhe was inaccurate in his assumption that they had only invaded Scotland to destroy the gargoyles. Historically speaking, of course, they had a number of non-gargoyle reasons - such as the fact that their real-life leader, Earl Siward of Northumbria, was one of Canmore's relatives - but that's another story).

One thing that strikes me about the bit where Canmore "slays" Macbeth is that it brings across the fact that he was something of a rotter. Instead of slaying Macbeth in fair fight, he waits for him to get into an argument with Demona and then stabs him in the back. Not much honor there. At least his Hunter descendants were a bit of an improvement over him and his father (except for the point when Jon Canmore becomes Castaway and afterwards).

I also find Macbeth and Gruoch's final parting a moving moment. One thing that I've got to say about Gruoch in "City of Stone" - it's hard to believe that she's the historical original of one of the most infamous villainesses in all of literature. Shakespeare may have maligned her even worse than she maligned Macbeth (as I said before in my "Long Way Till Morning" ramble, Demona fits the Lady Macbeth role far better than Gruoch ever did).

Back to the present: the big confrontation at the end still moves me, including the Weird Sisters' lines (even after we learn that they don't really practice what they preach). I can't help but wonder what the impact on Demona must have been when she discovered that the fact that killing her would mean his own death was no longer much of a deterrent to Macbeth - was, in fact, more of an incentive. And I agree that "Death is never the answer. Life is." is a great Goliath line. And Demona's "The access code is 'alone'" is a very moving moment; at least, it was for me.

Thanks for the ramble.

The Mighty Thor writes...

Lawrence Stone writes...
How do gargoyles view Homosexuality?

Greg responds...

On cable, like the rest of us.

This has got to be the best on in the arcive, mostly because you play it out so litteraly like with the "cauldran of life" It just really get's me how a question/magic spell can sound so good and start an intelegent conversation and then take any meaning or insight and compleatly nuke it.

Zombie White writes...

SMART ASS STUFF...
you wanted to know those we loved... I liked the Bunji-jumping new olipians and the fea that evolved from books... I like the sens in the non-sens..

by the way, some people asked "what came first, the egg or the gargoyle"... come on, we all know it's the egg... if gargoyles are part of the evolution then they came from dinosaurs that layed eggs :P
then again, dinosaurs came from unicellulars that didn't O.o
who's the smart-ass now !?

Jim R. writes...

I agree with Chris Maune's post. Gargoyles on the Cartoon Network would be a great thing! It would give a chance for some healthy "American animation" to replace some of that mindless Japanese anime that is polluting the minds of our younger generations in the Toonami block. Kids these days just don't know good cartoons when they see them...

matt writes...

no offense to anyone who has posted stuff about gargs evolving from dinosaurs, but i think that it is extremelly unlikely that they did. only Greg and God could convince me that they are saurian descendants.
dinosaurs were all wiped out!!!! what does a garg evolve from? bones? and as for the triceratops head frill and the pterydactyl wings and whatever else, why would all these dinosaurs mate with each other anyway? for that matter, pterydactyls arn't even dinosaurs!
gargs are far more likely to be related to the platypus, the bat, or some other mammal, not dinosaurs.
sorry if i seem like i'm ranting, but for some reason the dinosaur connection just really bugs me...

Todd Jensen writes...

Wow! A new episode ramble! Well, here's my thoughts on "City of Stone Part Three".

I get a chuckle out of the "I never watch television" scene - although I've occasionally thought that the lady must have been reading the script to know that watching Demona's broadcast was what turned everyone to stone :) (Then again, maybe it isn't such a hard connection to make).

Yes, I'd noted that Lulach's name got spelled wrong (I was aware of the original Lulach of history before "City of Stone" came out); thanks for explaining about how that happened.

I mentioned in my ramble on Part Two that the Duncan of "City of Stone" felt a lot closer to the Shakespearean Macbeth than the Macbeth of "City of Stone" did, and the Weird Sisters scene brings it home all the more. They do their "toil and trouble" scene, as per the play (which delighted me from the very first time that I saw the episode) - but note here the twist from Shakespeare. In Shakespeare, the Weird Sisters' words inspire Macbeth to move against Duncan. In "City of Stone", they inspire Duncan to move against Macbeth, instead. (And it says a lot about Duncan that he should completely forget that Macbeth just saved his life a few minutes before, simply because of the words of three old crones).

The scene where the Sisters transfer Demona and Macbeth's ages is a very effective one (although I don't know if I'd gotten the full story there until Part Four came along). So also is the battle scene, including Duncan's fiery end. (Again, I wasn't too surprised by the basic manner in which Macbeth overthrew Duncan; I'd already read that he did overthrow Duncan in actual history - and that it was in 1040, so I was expecting that incident the moment that the "1040" caption appeared on the screen. I'd also read that Shakespeare seems to have borrowed the more familiar murder story from Holinshed's account of the murder of a certain King Duff - apparently the same Duff who appeared in your "Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers" story as Kenneth II and Prince Malcolm's older brother. Although that Duff's final days reminded me more of Uther Pendragon's, in his going into his final battle in a litter - but I digress).

A couple of thoughts about Demona at the coronation that really stand out to me. First off, when Demona comments that she'd rather that humans feared gargoyles than respected them, I can't help but think that it shows how Demona doesn't always reason things out. For humans do fear gargoyles - and that's what causes the problem. Humans hunt and destroy gargoyles because they're afraid of them. So I don't think that it's clear thinking on Demona's part to desire that her race be feared.

The other part is the astonished, then delighted look upon Demona's face when the humans in the great hall actually cheer her. Another one of those almost sad moments, in that she's given an opportunity to see what it can be like to be loved by humans instead of feared - and seventeen years later, she'll reject it. A moment equal to her brief "What have I done?" moment in 994, before she changed it to "What have they done?"

I very much liked the Weird Sisters' little lurkings in the background throughout (and caught their policewoman role at once).

Oh, and I like the title "City of Stone". True, it indeed does ignore the flashbacks that are so crucial, but it sounds good. I didn't even notice that trait when I watched the multi-parter.

But perhaps the most intriguing part of "City of Stone" remains this: how many animated adventure series would dare air a story that spends so much of its time in medieval Scotland, as opposed to a more high-tech setting (whether modern-day or futuristic), exploring actual events in early Scottish history? "Gargoyles" was definitely unique in that regard.

I'm looking forward to the "Part Four" ramble.

Patricia writes...

My fave S-A Response :) :

Faieq writes...
In the Gargoyles Universe, how much truth is there in fortune cookies?

Greg responds...

All cookies are true. Especially Peanut Butter cookies.

(This is my favorite question this month.)