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Goliath
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Kim writes...
Settle a bet, will goliath and elisa ever hook up?
Greg responds...
Define "hook up".
Gipdac writes...
1a) Did Goliath know Jon Canmore and John Castaway were the same person? b) Did Elisa?
Greg responds...
1a. Not at the time of "The Journey".
1b. Ditto.
FanForLife writes...
I was wondering, when exactly did Goliath actually admit to himself consciously that he was in love with Elisa? Actually said to himself, "I love her?" Was it at a specific moment in the series, and if so what scene/episode? Thanks!
Greg responds...
That's a darn good question. I'm sure he hadn't figured it out by "Sentinel". It might, in fact, have been in "Hunter's Moon, Part III" after she returned from the dead. Maybe right after the Praying Gargoyle was smashed. Or maybe after he returned to the castle. It wouldn't surprise me if it was as late as that.
I'd be eager to hear what all of you think on this question.
In any case, he certainly knew by "The Journey".
Vanity writes...
Greg:
This question or line of thoughts may be dismissed by many as hindsight or 'if party "A" knew that party "B" would have acted as such party "A" would have/not done what ever they had done, or something else entirely.
That being said I am not interested in mere allocations of ideas or energy as it is parted to its situation(s). But rather the logical processes which make it happen. (not why did "X" do this instead of this, but how did "X" come to believe that what he/she did was what he/she wanted done in order to further the cause of or to accomplish the objectives of his/her agenda. Even when other noticeable paths of achieving that endeavor where evident and obvious.
--Case point--
-Demona--most irrational
-episode-Temptation--enlightening
Demona not by magic or trickery was able to persuade Brooklyn to believe that humans were bad for gargoyles. How? Through persuasive speech mixed with vived illustration, preying on the emmotion, and excellent visual situations highlighting her position.(the murder, troubled household).
1) she has Brooklyn to the point where he will steal the magic book and lie to Goliath.
Knowing that she has plenty of time in the world to accomplish her goal of a human-free world, why did she rashly cast a 'wierd-spell' on Goliath?
When I first saw this episode age 12 or 13 I had myself thought I knew what she was doing, I was wrong. I easily recognized then her potential ability to persuade the other impressionable minds of the clan with simmilar illustration and glib of tongue. (Lexington's encounter with the Pack) With the help of Brooklyn, "subverting" the clans' mind with tongue not sword.
Still, had she not wanted to wast the time and energy in that long term process she still could have stalled on her plan to 'open Goliath's eyes' why not study the book find a more meaningful spell. Since I do not know exactly all the power held in its pages I cannot give an example, however; I am sure there would be one in there somewhere.
Or even use this oppurtunity to find other usefull information, Brooklyn as a 'double-agent'.
When in the situation present without the liberty of hindsight, I know that what we do is what we do, but again I stress that I am not interested in her decision, cast a 'wierd-zombie' spell fine. Why? "Open Goliath's eyes". So we are here again at the point where all the preperations for planning will eithere pay off big time or backfire. In planning though she must have decided that it would be easier, faster, better to cast a wierd spell than to expend her resources into other side projects ultimately perhaps harvesting a greater chance of sucess through diplomatic channels and patient subversion. This is where I need your help. I reason that she must have chose to cast the wierd spell on Goliath so to accomplish her objective more quickly. Why does she reason that speed is the best way to accomplish her plans?
If it was not just speedily accomplishing her goals that motivated her irrational behavior then what was it?
Greg responds...
Well, I think most would agree that Demona is her own worst enemy. She is extremely intelligent, but also extremely passionate, and she often, often lets her passions rule her brain -- though she rarely, if ever, admits to that.
She may have justified/rationalized that speed was the key. She may have justified/rationalized that Goliath posed such a huge threat both physically and as a "corrupting influence" on the clan that he needed to be dealt with immediately.
But I don't think it was any of that.
I think she was mad at him.
I think she felt betrayed.
I think she wanted vengeance.
I think she wanted to feel superior to him.
I think she wanted to justify all the damnéd choices she had made over a thousand years.
I think she took personal satisfaction out of turning him into a plaything.
I think she made a big mistake.
I think she threw away an incredible opportunity, as you outlined above.
Just my opinion, though.
Stephaneus writes...
Hi Greg Happy New Year all
Vanity(don't you mean Gruouch??)
Know this is about Awakenings (which I think is the best episode in the whole series). Goliath caught Hakon's sword. What is the deal. Hudson's little dagger in Long way to morning cut a statue in half. But Hakons double edged long sword could only scratch Goliath. He's tough and rugged but come on now. And I really loved Hakon's reaction "Fight men they're not invincible" If that isn't invincible what the hell is? Why should Goliath even dodge weapons they just bounce off anyway?
Why did you let that happen? Catching a sword without it even hurting him seriously at all!!
Super Stephaneus
Greg responds...
I don't know what you're referring to vis-a-vis Vanity/Gruoch...?
As to your Awakening question, Hakon's sword did hurt Goliath. Cut down to the bone. He just toughed it out. Cuz he's Goliath. That's who he is. You expected him to cry?
And Hakon's sword could certainly cut THROUGH bone. But he would have needed to put more power behind the swing to do that. Given his position on that tower, Hakon did the best he could, but it wasn't good enough, and Goliath's been in enough fights to know what he can and cannot take. He stopped the blow with his hand before it could gain enough momentum to do serious damage.
What Hakon saw, before he spoke his line, was the Goliath's blood. We made a point of that, and even convinced our S&P exec to let us show the blood. Which is very rare for cartoons. If Goliath had been invincible, there would have been no blood. And the sword would have bounced off his hide. Which it didn't. Weapons don't bounce off our gargs.
Hudson doesn't have a dagger, by the way, but a sword. And a lot of Gargoyle muscle behind his swing.
And you, Super, have a lot of attitude, bordering on disrespect. Just so you know, it's really off-putting.
Vanity writes...
In Hunter's Moon on the Hunter's airship when Goliath and Demona reaching for the laser rifle was he going to shoot her.
Greg responds...
I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but I can't recall the scene at the moment. Odds are he was simply trying to keep the weapon away from her.
Artemis writes...
This isn't really a question, but rather a corrective comment.
Obviously Goliath wouldn't know, but I don't know about you, but Thailog is NOT Goliath's son. They are brothers. Until I went to a genetics seminar with my AP bio class, this would never have crossed my mind.
Anyway, to the point. The reason Thailog can't be Goliath's son is because of genetics. Thailog's genes came from Goliath, which in turn came from Goliaths parents. Now, therefore, technically Thailog has the same parents as Goliath (since all his chormosomes can be traced back through Goliath's parents).
There's more to it that, but I wanted to keep it it terms understandable. Another simpler way to make the argument is that since Thatilog has the same genes as Goliath, they're sort of like identical twins, born years apart (and of course identical twins are siblings of each other). It's the same with the labrynth clones as well, they are bothers of the gargs they were cloned from.
Delilah is a whole different story. I can't explain that one, but i guess she's a half sister to both Elisa and Demona, but I can't prove it genetically.
Sorry if I seemed to have a "you're wrong, I'm right" attitude, but I just wanted to let you know what the real world truth was. Now Gargoyles Universe truth, well, I can't tell you what's right and wrong, that's for you to decide.
Thanx for listening to my lecture :)
Greg responds...
Actually, I found this post very interesting and informative. It doesn't change the emotional reality of how Thailog and Goliath feel about each other. But it's good to know. And I appreciate -- greatly -- that you weren't trying to make me look foolish, just filling me in on an obvious gap in my knowledge.
It's over a year since you posted this, so I don't have any idea if you're still hanging around. But Thank You, Artemis. It is appreciated.
Peter Mason writes...
Anonymous writes...
The Weird Sisters had Demona and MacBeth steal Coldstone so Goliath wouldn't notice the disappearance of the Eye of Odin, the Phoenix Gate and the Grimorum and so he wouldn't go looking for them, but what I don't understand is why were the Weird Sisters afraid that Goliath would go looking for the talisman? I mean he'd never find them considering that the Sisters would have taken the talismans to the Archmage on Avalon where Goliath could never reach them.
Greg responds...
But Goliath did reach them, so the potential was there.
In fact, one could easily argue that the Archmage's greatest mistake was delaying for Goliath's arrival.
recorded on 10-17-01
Are you saying that the Sisters through their connection to fate foresaw the possiblity that Goliath would come to Avalon and had MacBeth and Demona steal Coldstone to try to prevent it from happening?
Greg responds...
Not that I'm disagreeing -- because your not off the mark -- but I think you're overthinking it.
Goliath presented a potential threat, so he was misdirected.
FanForLife writes...
Hi Greg. Just wondering--was the part in the Journey where Goliath went to see Elisa the first time the two talked or saw each other since the kiss at the end of Hunter's Moon 3? If not, when did they first see or talk to each other after the kiss? Thanks!
Greg responds...
Elisa and Goliath kiss on the morning of October 27, 1996.
Goliath goes to see Elisa just after Midnight on October 29, 1996.
I find it hard to believe that they didn't see each other at all on the 27th or 28th. But it's very possible that they had no time alone to discuss what had happened.
Corrie "Cormak" McDermott writes...
Hi Greg,
I have some questions about Goliath and Elisa.
1. You've said that Goliath started falling in love with Elisa pretty early on. And that he fell in love with her before he even understood how attractive she was physically. By Elisa's reactions in various episodes it seemed that she knew he was falling for her and she tried to deny the truth for a while. Not only his feelings but hers as well. Obviously by what happened in Hunter's Moon I , II and III she realized that she was in love with him and she let him know. Did she fall in love him because of the way he has protected her and his personality?
1a. Did she find him attractive physically?
1b. or both?
2. I've read your comments that Elisa and Goliath would realize that their relationship before it really started was impossible and they would date members of their own species, possibly at a Halloween party. Would this party have been the first time they dated since the breakup?
2a. Also would it be at this party that they would both realize that they still loved each other?
2b. or would that have been later on down the road?
3. Does Elisa know that Goliath was watching her and Jason in her apartment? (Hunter's Moon Part II)
3a. If not, would Goliath ever tell her?
Greg responds...
1. Well, I think Elisa probably thinks he's good looking too, but yes, it's who he is inside that really attracts her. In my opinion, anyway.
1a. I think so.
1b. Both, yeah. I gotta start reading ahead.
2. I think so. But it's not a party so much as a night out. At least in my mind.
2a. Yes.
2b. I don't think they ever stopped loving each other, but they tried to let logic and reason dictate their feelings. By the end of this Halloween adventure, they'd realize that it was pointless to supress their feelings. Certainly unfair to their dates.
3. Not sure. Don't think so.
3a. It seems unnecessary now.
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