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GOLIATH AND DEMONA: A RESPONSE
Here's another post I just know I'm going to regret. But I can't seem to help myself.
Mooncat, please don't take this personally, but I think you're viewpoint on Goliath's "shallow" love for Demona is misguided.
Let me make a few parallel changes to illustrate my point.
1. Let's say both Goliath and Demona were humans.
2. Let's say Goliath was a woman named Gina.
3. Let's say Demona was a man named Dan.
4. Let's say that instead of taking place atop rooftops and castles, these events were taking place in a two-bedroom house in suburbia.
5. Let's say that instead of using laser bazookas and the like, Dan was simply using a baseball bat. Or his fists.
Now take your scenario. Once upon a time, when they were young, Gina swore undying love for Dan. They got married. Spent years together. Even had a daughter together. There may have been hints along the way as to Dan's troubling nature, but Gina ignored those hints. She still loved Dan.
But, hey, sometimes things change. They go from good to bad to worse. Now Dan beats her. He hurts her. He's tried to kill her more than once and has nearly succeeded. He runs off. Shows up again, and behaves the same way. He has successfully killed other people in cold blood. Sometimes Gina reaches out to him. Sometimes he pretends to be good. And hey, he never, ever hurts their daughter. But he always winds up hurting Gina again. I can't tell you how many times Gina has been taken to Sunrise Hospital for treatment. Well, I could tell you. You could count for yourself, I guess. But once is too many, and we both know it.
Whatever oath Gina took once upon a time is, as I see it, moot. No one should stay in an abusive relationship. I wouldn't want my daughter to do it. I wouldn't want my son to do it. And I wouldn't want Gina or Goliath to do it either. To not respect Gina for moving on with her life given Dan's behaviour, is IMHO kinda horrendous.
Now I'm not saying Dan is Satan. He may have a decent side to him. He may have taken some hard knocks himself, maybe even as a child. He's certainly lonely as hell inside his own skin. All mitigating factors. Certainly Dan needs help. Would benefit from counseling. But to put that all on Gina's shoulders, the VICTIM, is beyond unreasonable. Love is NEVER enough in these situations. You may feel that Goliath didn't make a big enough effort, but you weren't the one being shot at. (And my comment in the CR about how maybe Goliath looked for her between episodes, was way beside the point as well.)
Personally, I have tremendous empathy for Demona. Not mere sympathy but empathy. I feel that there but for the grace of God, go I, more often than I care to admit. But empathy or sympathy doesn't cut it. She's committed cruel and violent (murderous) acts against other living beings.
And to use your own example, if Elisa went "Dark" and Goliath had to chose between saving her and an innocent. I'd hope he'd save the innocent. I hope that's the kind of guy he is. That he does the right thing, no matter how personally painful.
And if you think what happened with Demona wasn't personally painful for him on every level, then I failed as a storyteller.
Shan writes...
Greg said:
In fact, Goliath's initial reaction to Thailog is not to form a bond. It's to call him an abomination. (You blithely skipped over that, Shan.) Part of what follows is a bit of guilt mixed in with him taking responsibility for Thailog as a parent.
As to Angela, you've again missed his initial reaction to her on Avalon. It is clearly one of paternal pride, just as he is proud of Gabriel and all of his children.
Shan responds:
You're right on both counts. I do remember having fallen asleep and just woken up in time to see the "Double Jeapordy" episode. Probably thought I remembered more than I really did, both about what I had just seen and Angela's situation. Lousy excuse though. I really should have researched better before asking a question of such an involved level (re: attempting to compare Thailog and Angela).
Greg responds...
No biggie. Glad you're interested.
Shavri writes...
In the episode, "Future Tense," didn't it ever--disturb you looking back how Demona and Brooklyn were a couple? I mean, I see Goliath as a father to Brooklyn(even though G's only 10 garg years older). It wouldn't be right for a son to date his father's former wife/girlfriend. It would be downright disgusting. Yick! If my mother was single, I could never, EVER go out with a guy that has dated my her--even if he was around my age. Would you? And to make the B/D relationship concept/idea worse, Demona had been with THAILOG before she'd been with Brooklyn. Talk about hand-me-downs. Wow, that would be quite a marketing idea. I could just see it now: "Come on down and get the all-new 'Hand-Me-Down Demona' action figure! As a bonus you get to choose between Goliath, Thailog, or Brooklyn as her perspective "partner!" Heh heh! Demona would have a different outfit for which ever pairing you choose. Heh! Anyway, I'm just glad the whole thing was a dream-sequence scheme created by Puck and not something that would actually happen in "your" Gargoyle Universe.
Greg responds...
Well, first off it was intentionally done for shock value to freak Goliath (and our audience) out.
But to be fair, I don't see Goliath as a father figure to Brooklyn. I see him as an older brother.
Gipdac writes...
You might have answered this before, but I couldn't find it.
1) Did Goliath and Demona have any children in the 978 (Bronx's) rookery?
2) Did Othelle and Desdemona have any children in the 978 (Bronx's) rookery?
3) Did Hyppolytahave any children in the 978 (Bronx's) rookery?
Greg responds...
1. No. They were too young.
2. No. They were too young.
3. No. She was two young.
Cha-Cha writes...
1. Were Demona and Goliath mates before or after "Vows"?
2. What year did Goliath get his name?
Greg responds...
1. Before or after which part of "Vows"? The modern day stuff or the flashback stuff?
2. You know I haven't worked that out precisely yet.
Todd Jensen writes...
One thing that I thought that I'd mention here today, now that the question queue has gotten started up again, is on Goliath's smashing the Praying Gargoyle and foiling Operation Clean Slate in "Hunter's Moon".
I think that it's obvious to us all that Goliath was taking a big risk there, since if Demona had smashed the vial after that, all the gargoyles would have died alongside all the humans. But I wonder how many of us have noticed something else, that foiling Demona's genocide scheme entirely (as indeed happened here) could be almost as fatal to the gargoyle race. After all, at this point, the existence of gargoyles has been revealed to the world, and the public wasn't too thrilled with that. At the time that Goliath was confronting Demona, St. Damien's Cathedral was surrounded by an angry crowd practically howling for the gargoyles' blood, which was even prepared to charge in vigilante-style if the police didn't do anything. And even afterwards, as we saw in "The Journey", the public attitude towards gargoyles remained hostile; people were eagerly joining the Quarrymen when Castaway set it up, Margot Yale was openly calling for the capture and incarceration of the entire species on television, etc. We know, of course, from your "Gargoyles 2198" announcement that eventually humans do learn to recognize gargoyles' right to exist, and that by 2198, the days of near-universal attempts on humanity's part to hunt down and kill gargoyles are over - but Goliath, obviously, couldn't have known that.
I don't know whether Goliath had time to realize when he smashed the Praying Gargoyle (he took action extremely quickly, after all) that he was thus potentially endangering his species twice over, and that by saving humanity he was potentially dooming his race to brutal massacres (and I'm sure that even if he did know it, he'd have felt that there are just certain things that you have to do that are more important than mere survival and that wiping out one race so that another can survive is wrong - not to mention that he also knew that not all humans were crazed anti-gargoyle zealots), but I still think that that action of his was probably one of the most courageous and altruistic deeds that he performed in the entire series. I just thought that I'd give my thoughts on that here.
Greg responds...
I think his action was considerably less thought out... for me it's as Elisa say: "That's what he does. That's who he is." It was as purely a "Goliath" response to a crisis as any we've seen. Goliath isn't perfect, far from it. But the angel of his better nature is a pure and powerful thing.
Alissa writes...
Morning Greg. I have a little confusion going on reguarding dialog in episode "Hunter's Moon" 3. I was confused between the conversation going on over justice and vengance.
Scene Elisa's apartment after the clock tower bombing.
"The law?! What about Justice?"- Goliath
"I'm sorry but you don't want justice. You want vengance."-Elisa
"What?"
"Look at what this feud has cost us already."-Angela
I followed it just fine until this line "That's exactly why we must have vengance!"-Goliath
I thought he wanted justice? Goliath said Justice. Elisa said vengance. They(The clan)contradicted him then he worded about vengance. Am I missing something or is Goliath? Could you explain to me the scene here. Thank you :)
Greg responds...
No. That is, I could. But I don't see any point. It speaks for itself. If you're asking whether we made a mistake, the answer is no. That is to say, we didn't forget and feed Goliath a word we didn't mean to.
I'll leave it for you to interpret why Goliath switched words.
Shan writes...
This has both an apology and a question. Apparently you answered my recently posted question previously, to Aaron, some time ago. The problem is that I did not see Thailog's archive (somehow my eye missed it that time) and only one for the Clones. The answer I wanted was in Thailog's archive but not in the Clones archive. Therefore, I thought I was asking a new question.
But I've also figured out what bothers me about Goliath's "he is my son" response. If, as you said in your response to Aaron, Goliath feels responsible and wants to bring Thailog into the fold -- where he told Angela she should see the clan as her parents -- should Goliath have said instead "he is the clan's son" or "he is our son" (though THAT would have been odd, since he's talking to Elisa!).
Is that taking it personal attributable to Goliath's personality then? Would most Gargs have said "Thailog is the clan's son" or "He is of my blood. He is one of the clan"???
Greg responds...
You're taking this stuff out of context, as you yourself indicates. The fact that he didn't semantically state it EXACTLY as you might wish he had, is unimportant. You get the idea.
Really, I think you're splitting hairs.
Shan writes...
I just got done watching "Double Jeapordy," and in it Goliath emphasizes to Elisa that he must stay on the rig and talk to/rescue Thailog because "he is (of?) my blood. He is my son."
However, later on he meets his daughter Angela, but doesn't realize the connection at first. After Sevarius clues her in about her biological parents (Goliath and Demona) and Angela starts pressing the point with Goliath, Goliath responds with something to the effect that children belong to the whole clan. It is not until Elisa's mother and Goliath have the heart to heart about children sometimes needing special attention that Goliath and Angela begin to bond more directly, if I'm not mistaken.
But with Thailog, Goliath wants to reach out and make a bond almost from the outset.
Is it the circumstances of Thailog's creation that make Goliath take more responsibility for Thailog from the get-go versus Angela, or is it (though certaintly not her fault) that the fact Angela is also Demona's child somehow alienates Goliath more at first? Is it something else entirely? I found the difference in attitudes striking.
Greg responds...
In fact, Goliath's initial reaction to Thailog is not to form a bond. It's to call him an abomination. (You blithely skipped over that, Shan.) Part of what follows is a bit of guilt mixed in with him taking responsibility for Thailog as a parent.
As to Angela, you've again missed his initial reaction to her on Avalon. It is clearly one of paternal pride, just as he is proud of Gabriel and all of his children.
Later, he NEVER denies her as his child. He simply is uncomfortable with her focus on him as her biological father. This also mixes in guilt -- survivors guilt this time. And a healthy fear that if she responds this way to him being her biological father, then how will she respond when and if she learns that Demona is her biological mother. If she had simply been calling him father from the get go, he'd have had no problem. But she didn't until she got word from Sevarius about biology. That's what troubled him. She wasn't thinking like a gargoyle. When "Goliath responds with something to the effect that children belong to the whole clan" that's not just a means of putting her off, it's not just something to say. That's how he was raised. That means something to him.
In any case, the Thailog and Angela situations are so widely different, it's really comparing apples and oranges. But I certainly don't see any inconsistencies in Goliath's behaviour.
kmd writes...
Hi Greg,
First I must say I adore Gargoyles.
I hope these questions don't offend you.
1. Do gargoyles have sex like humans do?
2. If so, do they experience pleasure?
3. Could a human and a gargoyle have sex? (i.e., Goliath and Elisa)
Greg responds...
1. Largely but not exclusively.
2. Yeah, duh.
3. They can certainly give pleasure to each other. But I'm not going into detail in this forum.
Lord Sloth writes...
1)So could the Magus cast any spell he had memorised ealier without the help of the Grimorum or Avalon? The way I understood it, he needed a conduit to cast any spell.
2)So then why didn't Tom or Goliath do it without a conduit?
Greg responds...
1. A conduit helps. Also certain spells are designed intentionally to be more difficult then others. More difficult to do, and more difficult to remember.
2. Tom and Goliath aren't sorcerers. But memorizing one incantation and using it over and over again isn't too hard. Jumping back and forth between multiple complex spells is a much different thing.
Lord Sloth writes...
1) Given that most gargoyles have a desire to feel the warmth of the sun, wasn't Goliath or Angela tempted to ask for a chance at wearing a Guatimalan sun amulet, if only for a short time? If so, did their politeness outweigh their desire?
One more for the Guatimalan Gargs. 2) I Don't know if it's true, but I heard somewhere that the clan had a lot of eggs. I don't see how it could be more than 2 eggs, for 2 pairs of Gargs, unless the bigger clan was massacered pretty recently. So is that the case?
Greg responds...
1. Tempted briefly, perhaps. But they knew the amulets weren't toys or trifles. So, yes, too polite to ask.
2. Yes. Watch the episode, it makes that fairly clear.
Entity writes...
Hello,
I've recently allowed myself to be engulfed in astrology, and so I'm wondering:
1) What is Xanatos' birthday?
2) What is Elisa's birthday?
3) What is Goliath's "hatch"-day?
4) What is YOUR birthday?
Thanks :)
Greg responds...
4. September 28, 1963. Libra.
As for the others, I have years, not specific dates. At least at this time.
William Cain writes...
In the episode "Temptation", Goliath is placed under the a spell that makes him a slave to whom
Ever holds the Grimorum. OK. (A few point then my question and hopefully an answer.)
Point 1.The confines of the spell were that he would obey whoever held the book.
Point 2. In order to free Goliath from the zombie like state Elisa told him to act as is he was not placed under the magic spell.
Point 3. Demona took the actual counter spell.
I just don't feel that her having him act normal would cancel the effects of the magic as for him running around like a zombie yes but not the magic control its self but… I will leave that to you.
My question is if Demona was to take the book again could she take control over Goliath once more or are the effects of the spell no more?
Thank you for your Time
William Cain
Greg responds...
Here are my points:
1. Whoever held the spell. Not the book. At the end, Elisa was holding the spell.
2. Demona did not have the counterspell. She took other spells, like the one to summon Puck.
3. After Elisa issued her command, I'm betting they destroyed the spell. But who knows? (Well, I do. But I'm not telling.)
zakhur writes...
hi Greg! I was thinking, when at las gargoyles were discovered , I woul assume, that most cientific minds, espeacily biologists, would like to know and study this new species, given the bad history the gargoyles have had (espeacilly with Sevarius) would they give access to themself so they could be studied, I was thinking maybe Goliath would keep an open mind on this, so there would be more trust between gargoyles and humans, but I'm not sure, what do you think?
Greg responds...
I think that early on, Goliath and the rest would be VERY leery of allowing any further experimentation.
Lord Sloth writes...
In "Long way till Morning", Goliath says that they can't keep Demona imprisoned, and he won't consider the alternative. By the enf of hunters moon part 3, would Goliath consider the alternative, now that he knows what Demona was capable of? To what extent would he consider it, taking Angela into consideration?
Greg responds...
I honestly don't believe that when push comes to shove that Goliath could ever kill Demona. Ever. Unless you want to get WAY hypothetical on me. (Which you all know I don't particularly enjoy.)
Sexy Queer writes...
I'm not sure if this was ever asked but did Angela tell her Rookery siblings that Demona was her mother, If so where they in shock about it?
Greg responds...
Well, they didn't really know Demona, except as that garg who attacked them while under a spell. So it held less significance from an "oh my god, Demona!" standpoint.
Also, I'm sure they all have mixed feelings about the whole biological parenting thing. I'm not sure that Angela did tell them that Goliath was her biological father. That would seem too much like unseemly bragging. (So maybe for that reason alone, she didn't mention Demona either.) At any rate, they all would have thought of Goliath and Demona as Clan Parents.
Gabriel writes...
Back again,
Do think Goliath likes James Joyce or William Faulkner? Just wanting to know 'cause I am trying out DUBLINERS, and I always have difficulty reading ABSALOM,ABSALOM! and, after three attempts, can never get past the third chapter! ARGH! I had an easier time with SOUND AND THE FURY. OK, thanks.
Greg responds...
Goliath loves Shakespeare and Dostoyevski. I also love Shakespeare, but have trouble with Dostoyevski. I also LOVE Faulkner and have some trouble with Joyce. It suggests that Goliath's tastes are a bit more mature than mine.
Which is a long way of saying, Yes, he likes both.
Steven L. writes...
Gargoyles mate for life. Does that mean that once two gargoyles show interest in each other, and become intimate, that they've mated, and are officially forevermore monogamous?
If so, what happens if, over the years, the two gargoyles come to drift apart, or realize they have nothing in common? Do they stay together simply because of tradition? I take it there's no gargoyle equivalent of divorce. (Or at least there wasn't until Goliath and Demona kinda set precident).
And in that vein; should a gargoyle have an affair, then what happens if that affair is discovered? Does the unfaithful gargoyle and the one he/she had the affair with get banished from the clan?
Hope this hasn't been asked before.
Greg responds...
Gargoyles mate in both sexual and ritualistic fashion. After that they GENERALLY (and that's the key word) remain monogamous.
They imprint upon each other biologically, and there are strong ties of custom to discourage a split. Affairs, I believe, are quite rare.
But as you noted, sometimes things don't work according to plan. Iago has clearly imprinted on Desdemona, though she is imprinted on Othello and he has imprinted on her.
Goliath and Demona imprinted upon each other, but maybe as a result of a thousand years, that imprinting didn't last. Goliath has clearly imprinted anew on Elisa. (BTW, I'm not sure I'm using the word imprinting correctly. I know it's generally used for babies to imprint on their mothers. But it's the closest thing I can think of.)
So there are issues of both biology and custom that discourage anything like divorce or cheating. But that doesn't mean it NEVER happens.
Lord Sloth writes...
In the Gathering, part 1, how did Goliath feel, upon returning, when Elisa called Broodway "Big Guy"? Why did Elisa use Goliath's nick name on Broodway? I'm not to conserned, just curious.
Greg responds...
"Big Guy" is Goliath's nick name?
Stacey writes...
Hello Mr Weisman!
First of all, congeratulations on such a great show, it's the best cartoon I've ever seen, I've loved it since I was a kid!
Just a quick question. I asume that Demona eventualy finds out about Goliath and Elisa's relationship. How does she feel? I always thought that she retained feelings for him - despite her best efforts - and there's the fact that she probably hates Elisa more than anyone else alive.
When you outlined the space spawn/Samson/2198 or something storyline, there was no mention of Goliath and Elisa ever having children, grandchildren etc. I know that biologicaly speaking, there was very little chance that it would ever happen (unfortunantly), but I always thought that they would find someway of adopting. You don't have to say if you don't want to, but Goliath and Elisa without kids is heartbreaking. They would make such wonderful parents! I know that they would help raise the clans children, but its not quite the same is it? I mean Goliath has taken up the role as sole parent to angela, and Elisa is human anyway. Please give me hope!
Anyway, sorry. I didn't mean to rant on for so long. I need my gargoyles fix.
Good luck for the future.
XXX
Greg responds...
Thanks, Stacey.
You'll worry less if you stop thinking like a human. There will be plenty of children. And Goliath and Elisa will be parents to them. I've discussed them having their own children before. Hinted at it. Check the archives if you want.
As for Demona, I don't think this will come as news to her. And she already doesn't like it.
Mary Mack writes...
At some point at the Gathering, I overheard you telling some lucky fan or fans when Brooklyn learned to read. I was dashing off somewhere, probably trying to chase down Kanthara again (whom I finally caught on Monday-- Hi Kanth!), and I didn't get to eavesdrop on the whole thing. It sounded fascinating, and like part of a larger question about which gargs learned to read when. I sure wish I knew the answer, and I'd bet money that your other faithful readers want to know too. So...
We know when Hudson and Braodway learned to read-- they started right after "Lighthouse on the Sea of Time." When did the other members of the Manhattan clan learn to read?
Thatnk you for your time and I hope everybody pre-registers for the Gathering 2002-- I did!
Greg responds...
Thank you, Mary. I believe Brooklyn learned to read shortly after awakening in the twentieth century. I believe Goliath learned from Demona in the tenth century. I believe Demona learned from the Archmage. I believe Lex learned in the tenth century too. Angela was taught by the Magus.
(Lots of fun tidbits always get revealed at the Gathering.)
Sloth writes...
Who is your favorite character in the garg universe? assuming u have one.
Greg responds...
I don't. Goliath is the prism through which the universe was recreated. But I love 'em all. Even the bad guys and the nobodies.
Anonymous writes...
Will we ever meet the biblical Goliath?
Greg responds...
Sure. He'll be at Virgina Beach, next summer.
Anastasia writes...
Hello Greg!
I loved the show, especialy the Goliath/Elisa story. But I have a question, I heard that gargoyles age at half the rate that humans do. Would that affect Goliath and Elisa's relationship as the years whent on?
(Oh yeah, and just a daft one...do gargoyles shave? Hudson is the only one with facial hair of any description, I just wondered...)
OK. That you very much. How are you today?
Greg responds...
Some gargs shave, some don't.
And yes, the difference in their age rate would of course effect their relationship. But I'm not saying how.
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