Alix December Frost writes...

I was just reviewing the guidelines for asking question. i just want to make it clear, that I wasn't trying to submit any ideas.

Also, what DID Demona do during WW2?

Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

Greg:
In response to Matthew and also to your answer earlier concerning "All You Zombies," doesn't changing what he did (let alone preventing his own birth) also change history? It is part of the past that the character said certain words in a certain order, and not other words. If he chooses to change the words, he must change history also. Isn't this true of Demona in Vows as well? But in Gargoyles, history cannot be changed.

The reason I focused on whether or not the character remembers the words spoken to their past selves is this: when Demona shows up with the Phoenix Gate, the events of her encounter with herself have not actually happened yet. So they appear not to be predetermined. But she remembers what she her future self said to her when she was on the receiving end, and she remembers watching her future self kick Goliath. The events are already in her memory, and therefore part of the history she has already participated in. If she remembers the events, then either her memories are wrong (and were wrong all along) or else the events were part of history. The other possibility I can think of is that when she went back in time, she temporarily forgot her previous encounter with her future self and was free to make it up from scratch.

What I don't follow is how she (or Heinlein's protagonist) can choose not to play along without altering history.

Matt writes...

Hey Greg. So in "Vows", Demona tries to convince herself to "...rule the gargoyles. Rule the world!" using the Gate. In "Hunter's Moon" she talks about taking her "rightful place" after the humans are all destroyed. And in "Tyrants" she plans to destroy both human forces "leaving the fate of Scotland to {her}". There are probably other examples of this sort of talk, but I think it is clear that destroying humanity is not Demona's only goal. She doesn't just want revenge, but power as well.

Now on to my question. Something occured to me the last time I watched "Enter Macbeth". Macbeth says to Goliath: "It's not you I'm after. You're just a pawn. I want your queen." Naturally, Goliath is puzzled by this statement. But so am I. Macbeth has had a lot of contact with gargoyles afterall. In the same episode he even told Elisa that he "knows all about these creatures". He spent decades dealing with Demona and her clan and he even wrote a book about gargoyles. So, I'm wondering where he got this 'queen' terminology. Gargoyle language is a pretty sparse subject and the only real terms we have ever known about are "Leader" and "Second". So my question is given Demona's particular motivations as I mentioned above, did she call herself a queen during the Demona-Macbeth Alliance or am I just reading into all of this too much?

Thanks Greg!

Vaevictis Asmadi writes...

I read "All You Zombies" by Heinlein a while ago, based on your recommendation that it demonstrated working paradoxes in time travel, and although it was not recent I decided to finally type up and share what I thought from reading it. First of all, the story creeped me out!

But what I'm writing to you about is free will. Did the main character of that story have free will? On the surface at least, it appears to me that he did not for much of the story. He clearly remembered everything that had happened to him, yet he did not have to option not to seduce himself, or not to catch take past self back in the time machine, nor could he choose to change what he said and did in that bar when he was the bartender. When interacting with his past self, I think he had no choice but to say and do exactly what he remembered seeing his future self doing and hearing his future self saying.

He did have options regarding abducting the baby, mainly because he didn't remember being abducted, but one way or another he had to abduct that baby or get someone else to abduct her: he only had options in how he did it. This is comparable to Goliath time-travelling with Griff in M.I.A. Goliath could not possibly get Griff back to his clan in the 1940s, but he had plenty of options of what he could do instead. In that situation Goliath had far more options than the character in "All You Zombies" had when abducting the baby, but still this is a situation with free will.

But what options does a character really have when meeting their past self, if they DO remember the entire encounter? This is apparently what happened to Demona in Vows. She remembered Goliath's "little speech" (or maybe she was lying to him or to herself, but let's assume she was telling the truth this time) and so she must have remembered what her future self said and did. Does that mean she had no free will to change the encounter with her past self when she went back in time? For example, did she really have free will to change what words she said, or not to kick Goliath? It appears to me that this is a situation where she didn't have free will. When the Archmage(+) told his past self that the future is a place of science, not superstition, and that Demona and Macbeth were only "cannon fodder" he couldn't even have understood what he was saying, let alone invented it himself. In fact his entire bizarre mini-timedance seems to abrogate his free will, because as he said "I should (know what to do), I watched you do it."

Demona's PAST self certainly had free will in Vows, since she did not yet remember the encounter. Likewise, the Archmage clearly had free will during his first pass through his time loop. I would think that any time a character is in a stable time loop, they have free will as long as they are unaware of what "already happened." But when they do remember what happened because their past self is there at the scene, they don't have the option to change what already happened. They already KNOW what happened. If they already know what words they spoke to their past self, then those words are something they remember, not something they are thinking up freely, and they don’t have the option of saying anything different from what they remember.

Am I missing something?

Charisma82 writes...

In High Noon, what would Demona and Macbeth have done if Iago hadn’t been the personality to take control over Coldstone? What was their plan if Desdemona or Othello had taken over?

Thank you for your time and all that you do,

-Charisma82

Greg Bishansky writes...

This discussion has been had in Station Eight a few times, and I thought I would bring it up here. It seems to me like one could make a case that Demona is the lead character in the greater story of the GARGOYLES UNIVERSE.

If one looks at "Dark Ages," "Gargoyles," and "Gargoyles 2198" as a three act story, Demona's story is the one story arc that really plays out through the entire timeline. She is there for all three acts.

Yes, Goliath is the lead in "Gargoyles" and Samson is the lead in "Gargoyles 2198." I think Hudson is the lead in "Dark Ages," but I might be wrong. And they all play huge roles, crucial roles. But Goliath and Hudson are not in Act Three, and Samson is not in the first two acts.

Demona, without being the lead in any of the acts, is the constant presence. Sure, she may not appear in "Pendragon," "New Olympians," Heroes of Ulster," and may only have a small role in "TimeDancer" and "Bad Guys." But if "Gargoyles" is the center of the universe here, and "Dark Ages" and "2198" are both acts in that story, it almost makes me wonder if this is really her story. You've got her youth, her fall from grace, her time as the main antagonist (or one of them), and then her eventual redemption.

Not to take anything away from Goliath, because I definitely agree that "Gargoyles" is his story and that he is the most pivotal character in that series. But is his story a large piece of her story?

I'm not saying it's all about her, because it's not. I don't think that or feel that, because this is all one huge ensemble piece made up of many stories, but like I said, she seems to be the most constant character out of all of them in the Big Picture. And all without ever being THE LEAD in any of the "three acts."

Chris writes...

Would Demona and Macbeth still blame each other if they knew how the Weird Sisters had manipulated them, or would they assume that the Sisters were responsible for their betrayals?

Chris writes...

When Demona thought that Macbeth was going to betray her, why didn't she just take her clan and abandon him (or, if she really wanted to make sure he would fall, sabotage Castle Moray's defenses like with what happened to Wyvern)? Why would she work with Canmore, who she hated?

Loralee Dawson writes...

Hello. I was just wondering if Demona & Broadway were related? And I do not mean though Hudson. They are both the most human looking (besides Goliath & Hudson) their wing talons are the same, neither have horns, or weird face. Also their coulouring is very close. In some episode, even the same colour. I just thought they might be cousins.

Anonymous writes...

If Demona got pregnant in her human form could she still turn back into a gargoyle?