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HI Greg!
1,Why did Demona not get everyone out of the castle before the vikings arrived? ,I mean she was in charge when Goliath was gone.
Ultimately, she was afraid.
How could she explain why she was calling for a retreat?
She wanted to believe that the plan that she and the Captain came up with would work. (It probably never would have, but she wanted to believe it.) So she couldn't admit that it was a likely debacle.
But she wasn't about to take any chances herself.
What can I tell you? The lady has a few problems.
Greg, I have loved the show gargoyles for about 4 years now. I am a big DeMona fan, I think she is beautiful, and perfect in almost everyway. My question is, have you ever thought abotu DeMona and Goliath getting back together? Elisa Maza and Goliath is just not good... but DeMona and Goliath are made for each other, I remember city of stone perfectly, and It was clear then that they were perfect for each other, so why should it not continue now? Did you ever consider it? If so, how would you go about getting goliath and her back together? thanks... A HUGE FAN!!!
Demona? Perfect? Maybe she's a perfect fictional character. (I'd like to think so anyway.) But I'd hardly say she's perfect.
And it's Demona. Not DeMona, by the way.
As to her and Goliath getting back together. No. I put that to bed with Vows. Elisa is the true love of Goliath's life. Demona has a couple of true loves coming. But Goliath and her... when it was real, it wasn't that real. It was love, but it was also youth. And no small amount of her hiding her true nature from him. You can't base a GREAT LOVE on deception. Not that the emotions weren't sincere, but Demona and Goliath never truly understood each other. Not the way Goliath and Elisa do. And not the way Demona and xxx will.
Watched this with the family half an hour ago...
More random observations...
RE: Our supporting cast...
Who knew that Brendan & Margot would wind up being so important? Credit Marina Sirtis, for making Margot so gloriously bitchy.
And then there's Vinnie's first appearance on that motorcycle. Of course, no one knew Vinnie existed back then, which is thoroughly appropriate to his character.
And credit Keith David with breathing real life into Morgan the cop. Morgan didn't even have a name then. He was just a place holder, someone for Elisa to respond to. But Keith made me interested in him.
Little things still bug me. Xanatos' floating ponytail in the scene where he and Elisa first meet.
In the Kitchen, the Freezer door was supposed to have one of those easy to open latches on the inside. The irony being that Broadway could easily extricate himself, if he just knew how to operate the latch (or even what it was). Something a kid could do, assuming the kid was born in the 20th century. But BW has to bust down the door.
In the original script and the recording of that script, it's Brooklyn who says "So many wonders..." and it's Broadway who says "Goliath said not to let anybody see us." But in those early days, lots of people in L.A. and in Tokyo kept confusing their names (and Bronx's) so the animation came back as you see it. And it was easier to re-record the voices then to reanimate. (Or am I getting all this totally backwards? I just saw the show again half an hour ago, and already, I'm confused.)
(CAVEAT: In all these little things, I'll probably be pointing out animation errors here and there. But please understand, I think most of the animation we got, particularly from Walt Disney TV Animation - Japan, was brilliant. I think those guys did a great job and don't get enough credit. But anecdotes generally come out of when things go wrong, not when they go right, so it may seem like I'm talking about mistakes more often than not. Sorry, in advance to Roy Sato or anyone else who might take offense.)
When Elisa is first being checked out by the Trio, there was a scene in the original animation where Brooklyn seems inordinantly interested in her behind. We had to call a retake, cuz the guy was practically drooling. I wonder if that's where I got the idea that Brooklyn would fall for anyone in a skirt (or with a tail).
Also, after Goliath saves Elisa from falling off the building we have a point of view shot from her. It begins at Goliath's feet and pans up to his face, as she takes him in. In the original animation, the pan started at his head and panned down. That seemed less effective, so we had our editors reverse the pan, without calling for a retake.
At the end of Act Two, the door slides open revealing Demona in silhouette, clearly plotting something with Xanatos. That always really bugged me. I didn't want to give away that she was alive in this episode. I didn't want to know who Xanatos was talking to. How did you guys react to this? Did that spill everything? Did any of you not know that Demona was alive? Did any of you, by this point, not know that she and Xanatos were the bad guys?
Elisa says something like "This is where Dracula shows up." when she's walking through the corridors of the castle. If you take that literally (and you might as well), then you gotta figure that someday, Dracula will be roaming that very hallway.
Elisa loses the first in her series of guns, when Goliath crushes it near the end of Act One.
Goliath tells a joke: "And please, don't fall off the building this time." Goliath tells a joke. Can you believe it? It wasn't bad either. We should have let him tell jokes more often.
Elisa's surprise that Goliath can talk is indicative of what I thought a 20th (or 21st) century initial response to the gargs would be. That's why Goliath Chronicles' trial episode bugged me so much. I don't think humans would take for granted sentience. And I think most humans, those less open than Elisa, wouldn't even buy talking as enough evidence that the gargs weren't just beasts. (Cf. Margot Yale.)
Goliath is a pretty begruding hero. That's somewhat unique for cartoons. Elisa asks if there are more gargs, and Goliath responds: "Barely." He cuts her very little slack. But already you can see their relationship developing. I still think Hudson's expression after Goliath sweeps Elisa up into his arms is just priceless.
In that same scene, Hudson gets named for the river. I love that scene, as I loved the scene where Tom, Brook and Lex are talking about names. Of course, the desire not to name most of the gargoyles until we got to NYC '94, was mostly pragmatic. It allowed us to use those fun, cool NY names for most of the characters. But once we came up with the rationale for it, and once I managed to explain it to everyone, I really fell in love with the concept. Hudson's lament, here, that humans don't think something is real until they've put there stamp on it, is, to me at least, so damn true. And Elisa's response is so feeble and circular. "Things need names." Pathetic. But I'm no different. <SIGH> I'm such a human. But I aspire to gargoylosity. Anyway, after Hudson points to the river, and Elisa basically tricks him into taking that name, she used to have a line, as I may have mentioned before, where she said (under her breath) "Good thing we weren't facing Queens" -- implication being that Hudson nearly ended up being called Queen, I guess. It was always funny, but S&P didn't care for it, and I couldn't really defend it. So out it went. We tried another version, where she just says, "Good thing we weren't facing East." But it didn't play. So out it went too.
The thing that struck me most, however, was the almost thorough lack of action in this episode. After all that Viking stuff in Part One, and Vikings and a full act of commandos in Part Two, Part Three is a mood and character piece. Sure Elisa falls off a building, but that was a problem easily solved. Until the commandos' Central Park attack in the last seconds of Act Three, nothing else happens that could genuinely qualify as action. That was mostly a result of what was once a four-parter being turned into a five-parter. The reason we made that change is because Michael Reaves wrote a brillaint four-part script. It was amazing. But it was WAY too long. I was faced with either having to make drastic cuts (as I would later have to do in Avalon and Hunter's Moon) or expand it. Fortunately, Gary Krisel and Bruce Cranston saw the wisdom of expansion. For one thing, it would save us money. But also, it made sense because we could run the five parts across a whole week of the Disney Afternoon like a mini-series special event. It wouldn't require us to re-program one day of that first week. So we were all agreed, the four parter would become a five parter.
But that meant adding act breaks, and redividing everything. The episode that most benefited was Part One. In the orignal version, Part One covered all of what is currently part one, plus the first act of what's currently part two, i.e. ALL the Scotland stuff. The episode ended with Goliath's "suicide". A great ending, but we would have obviously had to cut a TON out of the flashback. This way we were able to expand into part two and preserve almost all of the story.
So Part Three winds up being nearly action-free. And by the way, I love that. I still think the episode works great, and it proved to me that the charcters themselves could really hold the audience's attention. (I'm such a proud papa. Unashamedly so. It must be pretty obnoxious.) I wish we had always had the luxury to be so... well, luxurious. To expand and play character. But generally a half-hour format makes it tough. I'm very sick of writing half hours, actually. But the powers that be in Animation believe that kids can't or won't sit through an hour long show.
As usual, I welcome posts here responding to this episode. Both your original reaction to seeing it for the first time, and your current reaction if you've seen it again recently.
My kids and I have started watching the 66 chapters of Gargoyles from start to finish, so I thought I'd give a shot at rambling on each episode as we view them.
So starting at the beginning...
Random thoughts:
In the original script, there was a bit that came right after Princess Katharine reprimands the Captain for inviting the Gargoyles into the Great Hall. She says something to the effect of: "To allow beasts in the dining hall..." Right then, we were supposed to cut to a shot of one of those hounds that you can see milling about in the initial establing shot. The hound was supposed to grab a chunk of meat off of one of the nobles' plates. This would further establish Katharine's hypocracy, but also embarrass her further, lending believability to the things she says and does thereafter. I recall that the scenelet got animated, but not well. Frank refused to include it in the final cut. He may have been right, given what we had to work with. But I still miss the moment I envisioned in my head.
Katharine and the Magus are so nasty in this episode. Boy, did they go through some changes.
I'm also struck by just how much the Trio grew from this first appearance. They're kinda medieval ninja turtles here. But they show potential. I still love their exchange with Tom as he tries to get names out of them and they are baffled as to why names would be important.
I do wish we could have seen more Gargoyles flying around. (It really would have been nice to catch a glimpse of the Coldtrio, but frankly, they hadn't been designed yet. We knew they were coming, but we didn't have time to design them before they were necessary.) But it would have been great to see more beasts, more females. More young and old. But I guess we did all right.
The cliffhangers are interesting too. In both, the threat is the Gargoyles themselves. Princess Katharine says something nasty about gargoyles, just as Goliath enters the Hall. He growls, clearly having heard her statement. And we go to commercial... I could never have gotten away with that by even episode 2. But this early on, we didn't know the gargs well enough to know how they'd react. Clearly they had our sympathy. But would Goliath go berserk? Obviously, not. But that was the tension in that beat. Same thing happens between Acts II & III. The threat seems to be from Brooklyn, Lex and Bronx. Of course, they're bluffing. Annoyed with the humans, they are simply trying to put a scare into them. But the audience doesn't know that yet, so I can get away with the second cliffhanger being a Garg threat as well. Of course, by the end of the episode, we know just how noble they are. And that's a great cliffhanger I think. Goliath roaring to the heavens filled with grief over the death of his "Angel of the Night". 'SCool. (But how many of you really thought she was dead?)
There are also moments that are fairly mundane to us now. Elisa pulling up in her car. Goliath first breaking out of stone. Demona stepping out of the shadows. I'd be curious how all those moments made you guys feel the very first time you saw them, particularly those of you for whom this was in fact the first episode you ever saw.
I invite you to post your comments here on Awakening, Part One.
In how much detail have you plotted the lifes of Macbeth and Demona in the years between 1057 and 1994? Do you know only some tidbits of their lifes (as for example the one you mentioned that Macbeth knew Shakespeare) or have you plotted them and their movements to some greater extent?
Did Macbeth and Demona meet any time between 1057 and 1995? Or was 'City of Stone' their first meeting after so many centuries? Did they meet the Weird Sisters again?
The Weird Sisters were watching them, but I think largely with maybe a couple of exceptions, they stayed out of sight.
Macbeth and Demona definitely had a handful of encounters over the centuries.
As for what I've plotted, well, as you said, I have a few tidbits and a sense of the sweep. But, no, I don't have a detailed account in my head of what happened to each character.
We all know that Demona hates humans, she sees them as being basicly lower on the food chain to Gargoyles...So what is her attitude towards the Fey?
Less overtly hostile. But she doesn't much care for them.
Is Demona aware of the existence of any gargoyle clan other than that of Manhattan and (after The Reckoning) the ones in Avalon and the clones?
Probably. (Haven't I answered this before?)
In the gargoyles bible for the first season you had made mention of the existence of a 'very wise man' who first made an alliance with gargoyles building his castle of a gargoyle rookery and who ushered in the golden age of gargoyle-human relations...
Is this still how you picture it happening? The existence of a specific 'very wise man' was intriguing to me - is he just a generic figure, or someone whose name we would recognize? (I have my own idea on the subject ofcourse but I refrain from suggesting it in case it's considered a story-idea)
I was being generic in the bible on purpose to simplify things. Honestly, I don't think I ever really thought there was just one person who did that. The world was too big a place and there wasn't any internet back then to facilitate communication. So that "wise man" was a place holder in my mind for a number of intelligent humans and gargoyles who made multiple alliances over multiple centuries in multiple places.
One such alliance of "wise men" was the alliance formed between Hudson and Malcolm, which was brokered by Robbie.
Another alliance was that formed between Xanatos and Demona, brokered by Owen, with a little help from Brooklyn, Mary and Finella behind the scenes.
One of the scenes that most intrigued me, was the final action of Demona in the Hunter's Moon incident: throwing the container in the air, a deed through which she risked the annihilation of not only humans but her own race as well, including her daughter.
I always considered this a very nihilistic action of hers (I hope I'm using the term correctly) as if she was saying "I won't choose to destroy the world myself, but if the glass breaks and the virus escapes and we all die, so be it." Others in the fandom see it as just a way for her to buy some time and manage to escape. If so it was a very risky way indeed...
Your thoughts (and Demona's thoughts) on the issue?
I can't put either argument any better than you just did, so my answer would have to be: ALL OF THE ABOVE.
you said that demona would be a ally with the clan by 2158 would she have given up on her vendetta to humanity and accepted them as a part of the world?
Eventually.
when demona told brooklyn about what she did during the centurys what did she tell him,did she tell him about macbeth?
In "Temptation"? No. I think people have the notion that Demona and Brooklyn had a lot going on off-screen and/or between scenes of that episode. (Again, Christine, I've heard the rumors.) But it ain't true in the cannon. What you saw was largely what took place.
do the wierd sisters have any future plans for macbeth and demona?
Yes.
is macbeth still hunting demona?
Not actively.
every time some one asks what demona or macbeth did in world war 2 you say a lot or your not going to write a novel length answer in this format could you at least tell us some of what they did during the war?
No. Not today. Mostly because the ideas I have would require research into WWII that I have not yet had time to do. That kind of relative accuracy was one of the hallmarks of the series, and I'm not about to get sloppy now.
will macbeth and demona ever reconcile?
Depends what you mean...
Hello! This is my first time asking a question, but I was alwayas very curious about gargoyle anatomy. Brooklyn in the character that puzzles me the most. I have noticed that his wings are the type that have little hands on the top of them. I have also noticed that the only other gargoyles that have this type of wing structure are female gargoyles. Why did you decide to make his wings look like that, and what purpose do the little hands serve?
It just so happens that he and Demona have the same wing-type. Angela inherited hers from her mother. Not all females have that type. Coldfire didn't for example. Neither did Una. It's not a male/female thing. It's just one of the many minor garg anitomical variations.
Something else that I've been wondering lately, about the betrayal of Castle Wyvern by the Captain of the Guard and Demona. There was one snag in it (aside from the use of the common enemy as allies in settling an internal dispute - always a Very Bad Idea) that I found myself suddenly noticing. Demona and the Captain's plan was to have the Vikings take away all the humans while the gargoyles were absent (foiled by Goliath deciding to pursue the Vikings with only Hudson), believing that then the gargoyles would have the castle all to themselves. But - did those two *seriously* believe that Goliath would, upon coming home to find that the castle had been sacked and the humans taken prisoner, just say "Well, that's that," and do nothing about it? I certainly can't imagine him just letting the humans be led away by the Vikings and do nothing about it, even if the massacre of the bulk of his clan hadn't taken place.
I think that was a miscalculation.
But I believe that Demona believed that once the humans were gone -- long gone -- she could convince Goliath not to send the clan. The danger of being more than a night's glide from the castle was too great -- as proven by the Viking's ability to sack the place while they were all away.
I think she and the Captain were, of a measure, kidding themselves. But all that self-delusion is hardly out of character for either of them.
Goliath probably would have sent a small expedition. Himself, Hudson, Coldstone. Left Demona in charge back at the ranch. Anyway, that's my guess. We'll never know.
First of all, I'd like to thank everyone who entered: Shauntell, Airwalker, Derek!, Aris Katsaris, Jon and Bud-Clare. I'd like to state for the record that none of you gave a "wrong" answer. But this was, of course, a contest, and I had to choose a winner. My choice is quite subjective, but the winner by a hair is Airwalker with the following entry:
"ALONE: The Demona Contest Answer"
Demona consciously chose the word ALONE for a password because in her perspective she is alone. Only she seems to see that humanity is a threat and that what she is doing has to be done. Her birth clan remains blind to that fact. Only she alone can see it.
Subconsciously Demona chose ALONE as a password because inside Demona lurks Angel, the sane innocent she once was. Angel is alone, trapped inside a villain, unable to stop being alone until Demona can accept a millennia of guilt, forgive herself, and allow Angel to be free once more.
A close runner-up was Derek! who gave another very interesting answer:
ALONE: The Demona Contest
A city of humans had been turned to stone and their only hope was about to be eliminated. And Demona had done it alone. She alone had survived while others didn't and she alone had eluded the Hunters for centuries. But why would the word ALONE suddenly enter her mind?
Subconsciously, the word had been with her since she kissed Goliath on the forehead in 994 AD. She covered up her pain with the mask of a mightly warrior. She made a mistake 1000 years ago and couldn't deal with the consequences, which caused her to forever be alone.
These are both great entries. I particularly liked Derek!'s first paragraph and Airwalker's second. Which is not to say I didn't like the reverse.
Anyway, Airwalker, I'm not at my office right now, so I haven't yet chosen the prize, but I will contact you via e-mail early next week and arrange its delivery to you. As stated, it will be worthless, but it should hopefully be of interest.
Congratulations and thanks for playing.
Praise the Dragon,
I finally got through all the September posts.
That means the next entry you see will be a Ramble that declares a winner to "ALONE: THE DEMONA CONTEST ANSWER".
Sometime next week.
Then, I'm taking on October.
hi greg
1.how could macbeth have gotten his and demonas marriage anulled since he would have needed her there to get it anulled?
I don't know what he had to do legally. I've never done the research. But if a spouse abandons you before the marriage is even consumated, I think that probably helps grease the wheels. It's also possible that Macbeth's lawyers were even able to contact Dominique Destine's representatives. I don't think Demona would have contested the proceeding.
Hi Greg, just one question; whatever did Demona think of the play Macbeth?
Probably that it represented poetic justice.
Hi Greg just a few questions
1. Has Demona been wearing the same coths for a thousand years--but truning to stone would make it five hurdened right?
2. What was Demona thinking of the humans during the Would Wars?
3. Did Demona find another mate other than Goliath during the thousand years when Goliath was stone? If so what was his name?
1. Geez, more clothes questions. Maybe she's changed a couple of times and just likes that style.
2. I'm sure, generally, she was hoping they'd all kill each other. Hiroshima and Nagasaki probably put a scare into her.
3. No.
This is another question I've been meaning to ask for some time, but finally got around to. You once mentioned your feelings about "The Merchant of Venice" and Shylock here, and particularly the reasons for your ambivalent response to the play. What Shylock prompts in me, in relation to "Gargoyles", is this question.
Do you think that there is a certain similarity, in the basics, between Demona and Shylock? I see one myself, since both come from oppressed minority groups, and both became sufficiently embittered by the persecution that they and their people underwent to seek revenge. (Of course, Demona's genocide schemes automatically dwarf Shylock's demand for a pound of Antonio's flesh). I'm curious about what your own thoughts are on this.
It's a great connection. I won't pretend that it was a conscious choice on my part (though wouldn't it have been cool if it was).
But I absolutely agree with your basic analysis. You call me a monster often enough and at some point as Lex put it, you get a desire to "live up to the name".
None of which translates into genocide or pounds of flesh, unless you've got some serious internal problems anyway.
But none of that precludes having some qualities that border on the noble. And I think both Demona and Shylock, for all their faults and flat-out villainy, have noble aspects too.
I think that's what makes them so fascinating.
Suddenly, I'm dying to read Harold Bloom's take on Shylock.
"ALONE: The Demona Contest Answer"
Consciously, Demona chose the password "alone" because she believed that she alone understood that the humans must be destroyed at all costs. She was forced to bear the burden of her crusade against humanity alone, since Goliath and the others were "too blind" to see that she was right.
I would think that her subconscious appreciated the irony of her choice. If Demona had succeeded, she would have truly been alone… permanently. Her murder of the clan would likely have placed her beyond all hope of redemption, and Angela would have been killed during the attack on Avalon.
Another entry just under the wire.
ALONE: The Demona Contest Answer
"Alone..." Demona responded softly. She stood quietly, shoulders slumped in defeat. Her promise, her oath to bring a new world into being would be unkept. She had been the prophet, the visionary who saw the pitiful, cruel humans for what they were. She, and she alone, had seen the truth!
She stood and watched as the Hero Goliath rushed once more to save the world, her eyes filled with tears of hatred and frustration. All was quiet. No one was near. Once more, as it had been, as it forever would be, Demona-- with all her wondrous vision-- stood alone.
Entered just under the wire.
Again, the winner should be announced shortly.
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