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Xanatos, David
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Aaron writes...
Hi Greg. Long-winded question, so bear with me.
One of the recurring themes of Western story-telling is that those who "tamper in God's domain", to borrow a phrase, will be struck down for their hubris. After the enterance of Frankenstein into our collective consciousness, one of the "rules" for Western literature is that Frankenstein must always be destroyed by his monster, for his arrogance in playing god.
The reason I bring this up, is that Xanatos is a man who seems to like playing god. And he has left a trail of monsters in his wake.
I'll ignore Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf for the purposes of this question, since it could be argued that they were already monsters who merely allowed their exteriors to be altered to match their true natures. (Although, it could also be argued that those three were tempted by David and his offers of power and vengeance, but at the end of the day, I still think they all damned themselves willingly)
I'd go so far as to even ignore the mutates, because even though they become monsterous looking, they really don't fit the bill as "monsters". They're just ordinary people who, by virtue of making some bad character judgements, find themselves with fur and wings. (Although it probably doesn't help Xanatos' karma any)
But even ignoring those two examples, you still have...
1. Coldstone. Such an obvious Frankenstein archtype that you joked about it. (The "It's alive! ALLLLLLLIVE!" sequence remains one of my favorites from the whole show) Of course, you could lay Coldstone at least partially at Demona's feet as well, so we'll move on.
2. Thailog. Grown in a lab, created with a mixture of different people, (Goliath's body and temper, Xanatos' mind and ethics, Sevarius'... libedo? Whatever accounts for Delilah) he turns almost immediately on his "fathers" You could call Thailog Sevarius' creature rather then Xanatos' except that David is the force behind his creation, and that Anton, for all his mad scientist posturing, could be seen as no more then a lab assistant, an Igor to David's Dr. Frankenstein.
3. The Coyote robot series. Xanatos' most personal "creature", the one to whom he gave his face (well, half of it) and voice. Loyal (?) to David for now, but unless forming the Ultrapack is David's idea, he presumably goes indepentant eventually. That, and we know he sets his sights on galactic domination in 2198, presumably not with his creator's blessing. (Then again, I could be wrong)
4. The Matrix. Created so that David and Fox could reshape the entire planet at their whim. If that's not arrogance, I don't know what is. Admittedly, I don't think it's becoming sentient along the way was part of the plan, and it's inclusion here might be a bit of a stretch, but I thought it was an example of Xanatos' hubris, if nothing else.
So, I guess, after all that lead up, my question is this: Would the pattern hold true? Would one (or all) of Xanatos' "creatures" come back to bite him in the ass later? As Elisa said "I wouldn't want Xanatos' karma."
There is a second part to this question, but I'll submit it separately, in case it's viewed as an idea.
Greg responds...
Well, for starters, I'd argue your premise. Victor Frankenstein's life was certainly decimated by the monster he created and abandoned -- but he survived the experience, sadder and hopefully wiser.
Moreover, it was the abandonment that was his true sin in Mary Shelley's original work. The creation was certainly hybris. But Shelley is pretty darn clear that she viewed the abandonment as worse. And I tend to agree. It's nature vs. nurture. The creature wasn't created evil. He was driven to it.
As to X's karma and whether it will all come back to bite him in the ass, I think the answer is clearly yes. But I really see it as a separate question. That is, it is a karma question more than simply a playing god question. That's one element. But only one. After all, one might argue that David and Fox were playing god by bringing Alexander into the world. But I wouldn't argue that. And I'm sure that's not what you had in mind.
So let's go through the numbers.
I tend to agree that Wolf, Hyena and Jackal built their own cages. And for the record, seem quite happy to live in them.
The Mutates seem to be following the same path as the gargoyles themselves. That is to say, that Xanatos woke the gargoyles, and has often suffered for it since. He then turned these four humans into mutates, and has had to suffer a bit (though admittedly not much) for that. It will be interesting to see Talon's post-Hunter's Moon reaction to Goliath and Co. moving back into the Castle. But the larger truth is that Talon, Maggie and Claw are making lives for themselves.
1. Coldstone. Well, yeah, duh. This is our Frankenstein's monster. But as with most things, Xanatos is too smart to truly follow in Victor's footsteps. He helps create the creature -- and certainly uses it -- but he never simply abandons it. And he also tries to balance (or bury) the Karmic scales, by helping out with Coldstone's Multiple Personality Disorder and by building Coldsteel and Coldfire.
2. Thailog. Here's the big threat, frankly. A guy with something to prove and three fathers to prove it all to. I think Xanatos hasn't seen the last of Thailog. One could argue that Thailog is the only guy to ever beat Xanatos at his own game (in Double Jeopardy). So the hybris of creating him has already bitten X's ass. But I doubt Thailog is through.
3. Coyote... I just don't want to reveal too much on this right now. Sorry.
4. I really think you have to chalk Matrix up to Fox's hybris (and competitive spirit) rather than to David's. She was certainly having the Matrix engineered for her and her man, but that doesn't mean that Xanatos was behind it. That would assume that she cannot operate independently. And I sure as heck wouldn't assume that about her.
So the short answer: yes. But it's all very nuanced.
Doug writes...
I'm sure this has been answered in one episode (probably one of the very few I haven't seen yet), but what exactly does Xanatos Enterprises *do*? I know how Xanatos's fortune got started, but what's he do (tongue-in-cheek) besides sit around and scheme and build robots? I would've liked to see him interact with his company more, but i'll leave it at that because I don't want to border on original ideas :)
Greg responds...
They do many things in many areas. XE is a conglomerate.
They design and manufacture a number of products, including software and hardware and various applications.
Scarab Corp. (the Robotics Company) is a division of XE.
Pack Media and Pack Media Studios are also divisions of XE, producing entertainment properties.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Xanadu writes...
Was the fact that Fox was the only heir to one of Xanatos's biggest competitors have anything to do with his marrying her or does he actually love her?
Greg responds...
As it turns out, as demonstrated in "Eye of the Beholder", BOTH.
Certainly Fox's "compatibility" included her coming inheritence. But Xanatos soon discovered that he actually loved her. Remember?
AngelOfTheNight writes...
Concerning Puck and Demona, In "the Mirror" Demona tells Puck, "You've served the human, now you can serve me", As well as in "City of Stone" she calls Owen "the tricky one".
The rest of us didn't know Owen's true identity until the end of "The Gathering". So my question is, just how and for how long does Demona know Owen is Puck? Sorry if this has already been asked, didnt see it anywhere in the archives. P.S. I was glad to hear that you and yours were safe after the WTC tragedy.
Greg responds...
Um... well, for starters, thanks. But of course, we live in Los Angeles so my family wasn't at tremendous risk.
I'm sure it's in the archives somewhere, but Demona has been aware of Puck/Owen's true identity for quite some time. Puck/Owen introduced Demona to Xanatos some time before the events of AWAKENING.
Samantha writes...
Dexter writes...
Hey Greg,
Call me stupid, but I've seen the pilot "Awakening" several times and I still do not follow the plot! I'm such an idiot. Ok, why did Xanatos got through all that trouble to wake up the Gargoyles just to have them steal disks? Then he used to information on them to makes the Steel Clan, what's the point of that? So now instead of real gargoyles, he had robotic ones. Doesn't make sense. Also, when Goliath and Elisa were attacked in central park, Elisa said she traced the logo back to Cyberbiotics, which Mr. X owned. So does that mean his own people stole disks from him and then he went and restole them back from his own people? Ah! It confuses me. Please clear me up, I've been meaning to ask you about this plot, and now I finally had time to. Thanks!
I can answer part of that! Xanatos did not steal back his own disks. They were from another company, the company that Fox's father owned. Xanatos faked a robbery to make the gargoyles think that when he told them about the disks they were his, when nothing had ever really been stolen from him.
He used the gargoyles to steal these disks to upload his steel clan. By using the Gargoyles, no one would ever suspect him. No one even knew what Gargoyles were I think.
Once he got the stolen disks, he was able to load up his
steel clan, which meant he no longer had a name for the clan.
Since they would be too hard to control, he decided to test his new clan on them. And I'm sure you know the rest. I hope this helps.
Greg responds...
It does. Thank you.
Guys, it just goes to show that the fans are a much better first resource than I am. I just flat out take to long (over a year) to get to your questions.
Dexter writes...
Hey Greg,
Call me stupid, but I've seen the pilot "Awakening" several times and I still do not follow the plot! I'm such an idiot. Ok, why did Xanatos got through all that trouble to wake up the Gargoyles just to have them steal disks? Then he used to information on them to makes the Steel Clan, what's the point of that? So now instead of real gargoyles, he had robotic ones. Doesn't make sense. Also, when Goliath and Elisa were attacked in central park, Elisa said she traced the logo back to Cyberbiotics, which Mr. X owned. So does that mean his own people stole disks from him and then he went and restole them back from his own people? Ah! It confuses me. Please clear me up, I've been meaning to ask you about this plot, and now I finally had time to. Thanks!
Greg responds...
All right, for starters Xanatos made a mistake. He assumed that the Steel Clan would out perform the actual gargoyles, and he was wrong. He was hoping, of course, that he could have both, but Goliath proved less than cooperative. Later, he realized his error and came to value the Gargoyles (even as opponents) much more than he valued his robots.
As to your last bit of confusion, Elisa said she traced the logo back to Xanatos, not Cyberbiotics. You simply misheard.
Lord Sloth writes...
1) After the Gathering (the episode), had the rules of the pact between David and Owen/Puck changed? I'm asking because Owen used his Puck powers in order to save Alexander from Oberon, and then in "Possession" Xanatos actually asked Owen if Puck could wiggle his nose and fix Coldstone for him.
a) In the first case, one could argue that this was something personal that Puck had to settle with Oberon; and so two birds, one stone (is that so?).
b) And in "possession", my only guess is that Xanatos was trying to hint to Puck about how he might turn this into a lesson for Alex, and Puck figured it out latter. Would this be correct?
c) If one or both of these are wrong, could you point out what I am missing?
2) a) Am I right in that training Alex for Oberon takes precedence over not using magic to help Xanatos, and thus Puck is able to work the two into one?
b) Since the Coldstone Dilemma was not really a big priority (like the Oberon one) why did David and Owen try to fond a way to cheat their lifetime of service agreement? It somehow feels that, though Xanatos might cheat other times in his life, this is something he would stay true to, and Owen would hold him to it anyway. (I hope that all came out clearly)
3) And one other thing. I'm sure that playing the part of a straight man has its initial appeal, but fifteen to twenty years of it must be a bit much even for an immortal. So did Puck probably go on many trickster excursions with his time off like in "Future Tense" and "the Mirror" (only without chains) that had nothing to do with Xanatos, in order to relieve some tension?
I don't mean to sound too critical here, as I really love the two above episodes. I'm just trying to understand all of the complex rules that conflict with each other in the show (which, incidentally you did a great job at maintaining).
Dunca Greg.
Greg responds...
1. No, the terms hadn't changed. Puck could justify the Oberon thing, because he was protecting himself from being forced to return to Avalon. And as you may recall, in Possessions, Owen did not just wiggle his nose. Not allowed.
a. More or less.
b. Not really. X was in fact asking for the quick fix. Owen said no. But figured out a way to make a lesson out of it.
c. See above.
2a. Yes.
b. It's clear, but (a) Xanatos wasn't trying that hard to get Owen/Puck to cheat. He made an off-the-cuff-remark. And (b) Puck did what he did (1) to teach Alex (2) because it was fun and (a very distant 3) because it helped Xanatos.
3. Here and there. But I think he really relishes Owen. Don't you?
I don't see any conflict.
Josh Wurzel writes...
Hey Greg,
This one has been bugging me for a while. How on earth did Demona know that raising Castle Wyvern above the clouds would end the spell? She obviously didn't have the entire Grimorum memorized because she said something to the effect of "how could my love be stone at night?" (implying that she didn't recognize the spell, despite studying with the Archmage). And for nearly 1000 years, the book was well out of her reach, first going with the magus and then being whisked to 1970 or some such year by the TimeDancer. By the time Xanatos would have let Demona read it, the castle would already be on top of the tower, best as I can figure.
2) did she tell herself in "Vows" in some scene/dialog we didn't see?
2a) if she didn't tell herself, did her year-974 self look up the spell after the events in "Vows"?
3) Did Demona tell Xanatos about the way to end the spell so that she could get him to raise the castle, or did Xanatos already know about the spell from the Grimorum when he met up with Demona?
4) If he already knew about the spell, then why did he get involved with Demona?
Thanks. I hope these were clear.
Greg responds...
1. You figure wrong. Demona and Xanatos first met before Xanatos even purchased the castle. They began collaborating and planning.
2. No. See above.
2a. See above.
3. I think he may have known about the spell. I'm sure he had the book translated. But he was missing key pieces of information, which Demona provided. Team effort.
4. See above.
matt writes...
i think i figured out when and how Xanatos found out the gargoyles lived in the Clocktower
i don't think Xanatos found out the gargs lived in the Clocktower in Hunters Moon for several reasons.
1) i can't see either Owen or Puck just slipping up like that.
2) Fox and Xanatos just took it way too casually as if they had known for some time.
after viewing some episodes, i'm convinced that Xanatos found out nearly a year before Hunters Moon, possibly before Owen/Puck knew. i think he found out in Eye of the Beholder. heres my reasons.
1) Xanatos places another tracking device on Goliath and then does not remove it for probably at LEAST an hour.
2) when Goliath leaves the castle he takes Elisa with him and in that time Elisa changes into her costume. her costume is probably at one of three places, at her apartment, in her car, or at the police station. if it was at the police station where she put on the costume then Xanatos only has to track them that far and he can figure out the rest (remember that Xanatos was probably tailing them for as much as he could, he may have even snuck into the Clocktower and seen the gargs furnishings). Elisa's car was at the police station and her costume was likely to be there since it is most probable she was planning to go with Goliath directly from the station to the Halloween party. and if her costume was at her apartment it is still very possible that they returned to the Clocktower for Elisa's car at least.
3) the show seemed to suggest that while tracking them, Xanatos was following Goliath and Elisa around and listening to their conversations. its possible that they mentioned the Clocktower and Xanatos could've overheard it.
4) if Elisa could come up with this great home for the gargs, i think that a year later Xanatos has probably had time to think about it and possibly figure it out just by guessing. hes a bright guy, you know...
i also have a couple reasons why Xanatos did not make a big deal or mention that he knew where the gargs were living.
1) this IS Xanatos, why would he reveal his hand, if anything he could save this information for use when he wasn't so busy with other matters.
2) i think that Xanatos is hardly going to make a big deal or even really think about the gargs home being revealed when in this episode (maybe more than any other save The Gathering) he is very emotionally stressed. the woman he loves may die soon, i hardly think he cares at the moment.
3) i think he didn't cause trouble for the gargs after discovering their home due to Goliaths help in saving Fox. this really mirrors his reinstatement of the gargs to Wyvern due to Goliath saving Alex. in fact, immediatly following Eye of the Beholder he certaintly makes large steps in calling truce with Goliath. he was very benevolent to Goliath in Vows and allied with him in City of Stone. i think Xanatos was silently granting Goliath and the clan a break for their help.
so, there is my theory, what do you think? mystery solved?
Greg responds...
If it makes you happy.
matt writes...
1. after i first saw "Awakening" i figured that the rookery of castle Wyvern was behind a door that opened into the same courtyard that the refugees were staying in. if you look at it the Trio and Bronx appear out of that rookery door into the courtyard after the massacre. in "Shadows of the Past" however, we see that if the rookery had been below the castle (or in it) it would've been taken to New York with teh rest of the castle, and it was actually left behind in Wyvern. i'm just curious as to where the rookery actually is (was). below the castle or what? this question isn't intended to find a mistake in the show, just to clarify for me...
2. was there more than one entrance to the rookery?
3. was it a large sequence of caves below the castle and the lands surrounding it?
4. was the rookery in the same place before Castle Wyvern was built?
thanx Greg!
Greg responds...
1. The rookery was beneath the castle proper in a cave. Or rather, the castle was built OVER the rookery.
When Xanatos moved the castle, he moved some of the rock that supported it. We have -- to my knowledge -- never made it clear just how deep into the rock the rookery cave was. It's possible that Xanatos scooped it up too. Or that it was in essence exposed by the removal of castle and "foundation" rock. If X did scoop it up, it's possible he was forced to "fill" the cave in order to create stability. I've never really thought about it before. But I'm not sure why you're sure that the Rookery was left behind in Wyvern. What it comes down to is that it no longer exists as it once did.
2. Probably.
3. It was one largish cave chamber directly below the castle.
4. Yes.
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