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Anonymous writes...
When did the New Olympians flee to New Olympus?
Greg responds...
Sometime ago.
Jackal's Love writes...
G'day Greg
Would any of the spinoffs featured the Pack (or at least members of the Pack) as villains?
Thank you for your time.
Greg responds...
Sure. Most. Let's see...
Gargoyles
Bad Guys
Gargoyles 2158 (revised)
for sure...
And I wouldn't be surprised if we also saw them in
Pendragon
New Olympians
TimeDancer
But I would be surprised if they showed up in
Dark Ages
Leon writes...
How did the new Olympians get so advanced in their technology? I mean they were completely Isolated from the rest of the world. Where did they get the reasorces? did they get any ouside help? the fae maybe?
Greg responds...
Why would they need outside help or resources? They were already VERY advanced by human standards when they first went into hiding.
Todd Jensen writes...
In your plans for the Gargoyles Universe, the New Olympians were a hybrid race descended from the offspring of human/fay matings back in the period of Greek mythology. However, you mentioned that the notion of the New Olympians pre-dated the making of "Gargoyles", as a separate series originally developed by Bob Kline.
Obviously, in the original notion of "New Olympians" that Kline developed, Oberon's Children wouldn't have been in it. So what was the origin for the New Olympians in the pre-Gargoyles version?
Greg responds...
It was even simpler. There were a variety of MORTAL creatures that existed back then. They were worshipped, hunted, etc., etc., etc. Eventually, they joined up and fled to New Olympus. Hid there for centuries.
They no more had an "origin" than the Gargoyles themselves do, as a species.
There was, at one point, a very complex notion that involved them time traveling back at some point and being their own originators, but we dropped it.
Tljack2001@aol.com writes...
I'm doing a report in class and I'm having a hard time I'm compering your cartoon "Gargoyles" to Edith Hamilton"s book Mythology could you tell me how you originated the characters in comparison to characters in Mythology, and why you changed the way Gargoyles live compared to Gorgons you know blah blah blah. It's a comparison and contrast report and i'm having a very hard time with it I know I'm on to something please help! Compare and contrast how you used stuff from "mythology" I have to have a source from you and this is all i found please help!! Plus I'm a girl so I have to do well on this because everyone says I don't know what I'm talking about and this is a "boy's" cartoon. Thankyou sooo much
Greg responds...
There was never any particular connection in my mind between Gargoyles and Gorgons. Sorry. I did have a Medusa character in mind for New Olympians. She was largely supplanted by Sphinx. But I was going to use Medusa in a different way if we had done that spin-off.
Gargoyles isn't a boy's cartoon. It's for anyone who likes it, obviously. Don't let anyone tell you different.
But I'm not sure how I can help you. I'm not going to sit here and either (a) write your paper for you or (b) write a paper of my own for you to cite.
In a nutshell, we looked for ways we could adapt mythology that intrigued us into the universe that we had created. We looked for ways to unify and simplify a diverse global mythology, without over-simplifying the characters of that mythology itself. We tried to be respectful and faithful to the ideas the characters and stories suggested to us. But we also tried to make it fit into a dramatic episodic context.
Does that help? It's quotable, I think.
Let me know how it turned out. Post it here when you're done.
Sixshot writes...
How does Hydras, Dragons, Harpies, Cerberus and all other mythological animals/creatures fit in the three races?
Greg responds...
Some may have been Children of Oberon (or Mab). Others may have been New Olympians or the like. That is half-breeds. Some may have been exagerations of something else all together.
LSZ writes...
1) In response to the 'which Coyote' thing in being compared to intelligence with Talos, I mean Coyote 6.0 and 7.0
2) What is it that makes Talos so smart? Extremely advanced AI? Remaining sorcery from Daidolos/a Cyclops' manufacture? All or none of the above?
Greg responds...
1. I don't know. I think probably Talos. The Coyote Robot, no matter how smart it gets, will always have a bit of Wile E. Coyote in its make-up.
2. Advanced A.I. mostly. (Keep in mind he's been rebuilt and upgraded many times. Both in hardware and software. Only his basic design style and memory files have remained consistent.)
LSZ writes...
1) How do the NO gargs look like, considering how vastly different each Gargoyle clan looks from one another..compare the Mayan to the London to the Ishimuran..
2) Since the NOs in NEW OLYMPIANS seem to be divided into these main factions, the peace-with-humanity, the worship-us-you-lousy-humans and the isolationist policy..which side would the majority of the NO gargoyles side with?
Greg responds...
1. I'm not gonna commit til I've worked it out with Guler or someone.
2. All three. Sometimes all at once. Hey, it's an election year!
LSZ writes...
More NO questions, specifically on the characters we saw
1) Is Proteus related to the mythological Proteus?
2) Was that Proteus fae?
3) Would there have been any main NO Gargoyle character in NEW OLYMPIANS?
4) Is Boreas' cool lightning-burst-from-staff thingy a special fae-descended power of his or is that just part of the staff's technological gadgetry?
Greg responds...
1. Probably a descendent.
2. Maybe.
3. Main? No. Recurring, eventually.
4. That's his.
LSZ writes...
New Olympus questions:
1) In which ocean is New Olympus in?
2) How large is it, roughly? The size of Madagascar?
3) How long has its cloaking shield been in use?
4) What prevented humans from finding it in the times before the shield was in use?
5) Talos spoke of the increasing level of human tech; thisi mplies the NO's have been monitoring humanity. For how long have they done so?
5a) And how do they do it?
5b) And what do they specifically look for to monitor?
6) Do the NO's have nuclear tech?
7) What is the population of New Olympus?
8) How many of that population are gargoyles?
Greg responds...
1. It's a secret.
2. Big enough for now.
3. Years and years.
4. Currents.
5. Years and years.
5a. Carefully.
5b. Reruns.
6. Better.
7. An exact number? Come on LSZ don't you know me better by now?
8. A percentage.
LSZ writes...
Which is more intelligent, roughly: Talos, Coyote or the Golem?
Greg responds...
Talos.
Wait, which Coyote?
LSZ writes...
Is Proteus the only shapeshifter on New Olympus?
Greg responds...
Probably not.
Jeff N. writes...
Hey there Mr. Weisman,
In an answer to an earlier question about the origins of the New Olympians, you said that the first New Olympians were the result of various fae-mortal unions, and I was just wondering if, in the Gargoyles Universe, all of the original 12 Olympians from Greek mythology would be classified as full-fledged members of the Third Race (i.e. Oberon's Children)?
Thank you and good luck on resurrecting Gargoyles.
Greg responds...
Not necessarily.
LSZ writes...
Would any of the major characters in NEW OLYMPIANS be one of the NO Gargoyles?
Greg responds...
No.
LSZ writes...
1) Do fae grow weaker magically as they grow older?
2) Is there any limit to how powerful a fae can grow unaided by any magical artefacts?
3) How seriously can fae be hurt by human magic?
4) If gargoyles could develop their own sorcery, would the magic they utilise be identical to human magic?
5) Did the Zeroth/Lost Race use magic?
6) Do the New Olympians use magic these days?
Greg responds...
1. Generally, no.
2. Probably.
3. Seriously.
4. Identical? Garg sorcery + human sorcery = mortal sorcery.
5. Zeroth? Who's that?
6. Rarely.
Sapphire writes...
In the episode The New Olympians Taurus once said to Helios
that he will be out of a job if he didn't do what he was told. Is there such things as poverty and unemployment in New Olympian society like there is today?
Greg responds...
Probably. Unemployment certainly. Relative wealth certainly. I'm not sure poverty is permitted though.
LSZ writes...
1) What religions are there on New Olympus?
2) How many?
3) What is the nature of the more popular religions?
4) Is/are there any organised priesthoods?
5) If so, how much influence do they possess on New Olympian society?
6) Do any of them worship their fae ancestors?
Greg responds...
1. Many.
2. Many.
3. Pantheistic, Monotheistic, and everything in between.
4. Sure.
5. Some.
6. Yes.
Todd Jensen writes...
Oh, one little bit about my question regarding Xanatos in "The New Olympians". I, of course, knew that "Xavier" was merely a "rejected first-draft" name for our favorite scheming billionaire and did not actually exist in the Gargoyles Universe. Rather, I mentioned it because somebody who'd been to your "New Olympians" speech at one of the Gatherings had told me that there would have been a Xanatos-style character named Xavier in it; I may have misunderstood him.
Greg responds...
You did. Or he misunderstood me. XANATOS himself is in the New Olympian pitch. We came up for the idea for New Olympians before Gargoyles. But we brought it back out DURING gargoyles and revised the pitch to include Xanatos.
Anonymous writes...
You once said said that the New Olympians were worshipped as gods. So which gods were New Olympians?
Greg responds...
No. I said they were descended from the Olympians that were worshipped and/or feared as the gods and monsters of classical mythology.
Emmlei writes...
I was thinking recently about Demona and the Canmores/Hunters, and it dawned on me that it's a lot like the Montagues and Caputlets of 'Romeo and Juliet'. Both involve two 'families' battling each other over a past greivance, one whose cause unfortunately became lost in the past (for Gargoyles, it's some kid getting slashed in the face, and we never learn the cause in 'R&J'). In both, the drive for revenge becomes the driving force for keeping the feud going. It's kind of tragic that in both stories, something as low as vengence causes so much pain on both sides. So, was that intentional or did I just come across one of those universal themes?
Greg responds...
Largely the universal theme thing. The obvious piece that's missing to make it truly parallel R&J is the young lovers. And I don't think that Jason & Elisa really fill those rolls, wouldn't you agree?
I was going to do a much more dead-on R&J riff in NEW OLYMPIANS with Terry Chung and Sphinx.
LSZ writes...
How much by 2158 does the human world know about the truth of the New Olympians' origins?
Greg responds...
A lot.
Damien writes...
I had a question, but I wasn't sure if putting it at the bottom of my last post would violate your 'separate posts' rule or not. Anyway, I recently watched 'New Olympians' and when Taurus tells Proteus( masquerading as Golaith) not to interfere, at the Collonadium(sp?), he wasn't surprised that he hadn't turned to stone. You said once that there were gargoyles on New Olympus. Was Taurus not surprised because some of the gargoyles there don't turn to stone?
If so why don't they turn to stone?
Greg responds...
They turn to stone. Taurus was distracted and not thinking.
Kraken writes...
Hello mr. Weisman
On New Olympus, will the Gargoyle clan be divided in three factions or will they all stay in one faction? If one group, which one?
Greg responds...
Haven't thought about that, honestly.
Axem Gold writes...
1) If and when you get to do tose Gargoyle Episodes and Spinoffs do you plan to do crossovers like the following:
Gargoyles: 2158/Timedancer
Dark Ages/Timedancer
Pendragon/Bad Guys
2) Would you still include the Previously On Gargoyles segments when necessary?
Greg responds...
1. 2158(revised) and TimeDancer, definitely.
Dark Ages and TimeDancer, probably.
Pendragon/Bad Guys. Probably, eventually.
Pendragon/Gargoyles. Definitely.
Bad Guys/Gargoyles. Definitely.
New Olympians/Gargoyles. Definitely.
New Olympians/Pendragon/Bad Guys - Eventually.
2. Probably.
Charles writes...
One of my favorite New Olympians was the robot Talos. I was kinda upset when Proteus threw it off that building. Was he destroyed? Did you have further plans for it?
Greg responds...
He was badly damaged. But not for the first or last time. He would absolutely be rebuilt and would have been one of the four leads, alongside Taurus, Sphinx and Terry Chung in the NEW OLYMPIANS spin-off that I had planned.
Graymonk writes...
Sorry for the double post Mr. Weisman but #6 on my list was supposed to be Loch Ness, Scotland, not Loch Ness, Spctland. sorry must have slipped by me while proof reading,
Just so this post isn't a total waste of space I have a few Questions about the extent of Proteus' shape shifting ability:
1) Can he morph into any form he can imagine or is he limited to creatures that exist in the real world?
2) In "The New Olympians" Proteus only assumed the forms of living creatures is he limited to only living creatures or can he become inanimate objects?
Thankyou very much.
Greg responds...
The typo did not escape my attention. But I covered for you.
1. He's got a lot to choose from already.
2. Sure.
Isaac Kelley writes...
Alright, in Hunters Moon, my personal favorite episode, Demona almost unleashed a magical disease that would have killed all sentience. Gargoyles would be immune to it's effects thanks to the Praying Gargoyle.
Now we all know Goliath smashed the statue and saved the world. But what if this was not the case...
1. All humans would have died. Macbeth is obviously human. Would this not have qualified as death at Demona's hands, thus killing Demona (oops)?
2. If not, would she fall prey to it when she turned into human form? How would this work?
3. Would this spread to Avalon and/or the isle of the New Olympians?
4. How would it affect... Oberon's Children?
5. ...New Olympians?
6. ...Gargoyle clones?
7. Any other effects?
Thanks for your time. Love your rambles, by the way, look forward to next season's rambles.
Greg responds...
More hypothetical questions... YAY!
1. I've answered this many times before. Try looking through the Demona or Macbeth archives. Briefly, it would depend on Demona's intent.
2. I'm sure she thought she was safe.
3. No reason why it wouldn't spread to New Olympus. No reason why it would spread to Avalon.
4. Potentially not at all.
5. Kill most of them probably.
6. Not at all.
7. Anyone who asks hypothetical questions based on untread pathes would die. :)
LSZ writes...
What's the New Olympian's religion like?
Greg responds...
There isn't just one.
Laura aka 'ad astra' writes...
I wasn't planning to post another question until you had gotten to the last batch I posted. I figure how long it takes you to get to Ask Greg is a pretty good indication of how swamped you are. However, it is easier to figure out where to start looking for questions posted since I have last looked when I have a landmark post to start from. I guess I am a bit egocentrical since the landmark has to be of my own making:]
Here's a strange little question- As a fan I am happy whenever you expand the Gargoyle universe, so the inclusion of the New Olympian spin-off, and how well it would compare and contrast to the Gargoyle one was just a big plus. However, now that you pitched it as a Gargoyle spin-off, and, for now at least, it did not happen, do you regret having pitched it? I don't know if Disney has any claim to it from your pitch- but I bet they would have to all the characters we saw in the World Tour ep. I suppose you could redesign and alter it a lot, but it would not be the same and you couldn't pitch it as you picture it to another network. So do you, in part, wish you hadn't connected it to Gargoyles, or has it become an organic part of the Gargoyle universe and you really couldn't imagine New Olympians separately anyway?
Greg responds...
Your question pre-supposes some incorrect assumptions. New Olympians was created before Gargoyles, but like Gargoyles it was developed at Disney by Disney full-time employees, so Disney owned it all, independent of whether or not we chose to connect it up to the Gargoyles Universe. So, since it seemed to fit nicely, and might benefit both Universes, we chose to combine them into one Universe. No regrets there.
And by the way, I didn't come up with the initial idea for the New Olympians. The creator of that show was Bob Kline, who was Development Art Director for both New Olympians and Gargoyles, and was later a Director and Producer on Gargoyles. He directed the episode "The New Olympians".
Bob's idea went through a bit of a metamorphosis under my aegis. And we worked on it closely together. Greg Guler was brought in to help design some of the characters. But Bob should get credit for his contribution.
LSZ writes...
Do the New Olympian gargoyles protect New Olympus the way other clans protect an area?
Greg responds...
Yes.
Todd Jensen writes...
According to what I've heard about your discussion of "The New Olympians" spin-off that you'd planned at the Gatherings, Xanatos would have shown up in it as a sort of trading partner to New Olympus, both under his own name and under Xavier. You've mentioned here earlier that Xavier was the "first-draft" name for Xanatos, back when "Gargoyles" was going to be a comedy series. Was Xavier/Xanatos originally created for the "New Olympians" series when it was first thought up, before "Gargoyles" came along, and then transfered to "Gargoyles" when "New Olympians" didn't get off the ground (the same as the New Olympians themselves eventually)?
Greg responds...
First off, there is no Xavier in the Garg Universe. The Xanatos name completely took it's place. And Xavier never appeared in the New Olympian Pitch. We pitched New Olympians first, pre-Gargoyles. (Based on an idea by Bob Kline.) Then after Gargoyles was up and running, we trotted the New Olympian pitch back out, made some minor changes, including the addition of Xanatos and pitched the show again. Still with no success.
But Xanatos was created for Gargoyles. Adding him to New Olympians, was an afterthought.
Todd Jensen writes...
We know how Taurus views the fate of the original Minotaur at Theseus's hands. In your opinion, how does Sphinx view the fate of the original Sphinx (the one who met Oedipus)?
Greg responds...
Haven't thought about it. Probably about the same.
Hesparian General writes...
This got lost in the queue, so I'll post it again.
Why did Micheal did the voice of Taurus, even if he is doind the voice of coldstone?
Greg responds...
Michael Dorn was a natural to play Taurus. It was a very Worf-like character in many ways. But because we already had used him as Coldstone, we decided to hire someone else. That person did NOT work out well at all. (That entire episode was a problem. We had another Proteus and another Boreas as well.) Since we had to re-spend the money to recast so many people, I didn't want to take any chances the second time. (There was no way that we'd be allowed a third chance.) So we went with three people we knew we could count on, i.e. Roddy McDowell as Proteus, Dorian Harewood (am I spelling these correctly?) as Boreas and of course Michael Dorn as Taurus.
Aris Katsaris writes...
Anonymous> Hey, there's a *big* difference between Helius and Apollo! Jeez! :-)
Greg responds...
Yeah. Jeez.
And the New Olympian Helios had flaming hair, but did the Greek God Helios have it? Not that I recall.
LSZ writes...
Technology:
1) How long did it take for the New Olympians to develop their technology to the level seen in New Olympians?
2) In any respects are any of the three races involved in the Space-Spawn war less advanced than what we've seen of Earthly technology? Meaning is there anything in particular technologically Earth has that the aliens don't have? Like say, Sevarius' genetic manipulation, the NO's anti-gravity, Xanatos' Matrix..
3) How advanced were Gargoyles technologically by the time humanity came along? Stone Age-tech?
4) Castle Wyvern is a large stone-built fortress that looks like it was built using construction techniques and concepts that didn't appear in Europe until after the Crusades(I think). So why, in the Gargoyles universe, are the Europeans of 994 more advanced than in history? What in-universe explanation is there?
5) King Arthur of the 6th century seems to wear at least partial plate armour that didn't appear until the 1400's? what's the in-universe explanation here?
Greg responds...
1. Until 1996.
2. Generally, they are more advanced than us. But I won't rule out the possiblility that we might not be able to surprise them.
3. Not very. It was unnecessary to their life-styles. Humans are a much more adaptable race, for better and for worse.
4. In universe, I don't need an explanation if I don't feel like dealing. They just are. Perhaps less was forgotten. Perhaps magic was involved. Perhaps our knowledge is flawed.
5. He had access to sources of Armor that most people didn't. We assume that these things didn't EXIST until later. All we KNOW is that they weren't prevalent until later.
Kraken writes...
Hi (don't stay up night too long)
In all the spinoffs, you mentioned vilains that will show up, like: in Pendragon Duval is the main ennemy and in 2158: the Space-Spawns will be the main threat. What about Timedancer and New Olympians?
Will there be a main vilain in Timedancer and New Olympians?
Thanx...and later
Greg responds...
New Olympians is easy... There's Proteus of course, plus Jove (and his crew, including Helios and Boreas' son) and Ekidna (and her crew, including Kiron and her reluctant daughter Medusa). Plus the usual suspects. Xanatos, Sevarius. You know.
TimeDancer's trickier. I haven't fully decided if there's one over-riding villain. Calaban's a possiblity. So's the Archmage-Plus, believe it or not. I have one story for him for sure. Then there's Constantine. And the Space-Spawn. Duval. Mab. Like I said, I haven't decided.
Matt writes...
Hello I'm a really big fan of Gargoyles, I watch the show all the time.
Well here's my Q.
Is there anywhere on the web that your spin-offs are in print, or are they only at the gatherings?
Greg responds...
Pretty much only at the Gathering. But you can get a lot of info on them by checking the following ASK GREG archives...
Bad Guys
Dark Ages
Gargoyles 2158
New Olympians
Pendragon
TimeDancer
Anonymous writes...
Are there other sentient races living on the Earth besides fay,halflings,humans and gargoyles?
If so could you name them.?
Greg responds...
Well, Nokkar.
And the New Olympians (though they're a spin-off race of the fae).
Otherwise, no.
Todd Jensen writes...
You've indicated that many of the Greek gods (though not all of them) were "New Olympians" - well, before they became *New* Olympians. Now, the Greek gods were particularly noted for their humanlike appearance, especially in contrast with such cases as the animal-headed gods of ancient Egypt (such as Anubis) or the multi-armed gods of India. They all looked like normal humans (if better-looking, with the exception of Hephaestus), and were depicted thus in classical art.
The New Olympians, on the other hand, nearly all seem to have a not-fully-human appearance, fitting more into the category of the animal/human hybrids such as minotaurs, centaurs, sphinxes, echidnae, and other such beings of the Greek myths. The only one of them that looked human all the way was Proteus in his regular form. So, were the Greek gods of Olympus less anthropomorphic in the Gargoyles Universe than the artistic depictions of them by Phidias and the rest claim? Or are there more "human-appearing" New Olympians out there that we didn't get to see during the episode? (Given that the New Olympians only showed up in one episode of the series, that does seem quite possible, I'll admit; there wouldn't have been that much time to introduce them).
Greg responds...
Jove is very humanesque. And aside from the flaming 'do, so is Helios. And except for the wings, so is Boreas. It's a pretty big mix.
But also, I never said ALL of the Greek gods were pre-New New Olympians. Some of them were Children of Mab.
Lexy writes...
Dear Greg,
When you say 'clans' you mean a clan right? In other words..you are not ONLY including Gargoyles right? I mean, when Goliath invited Derek to join his clan, Derek responded saying that he now had his own. And The New Olympions have gargs..but they arent pure either. I just was wondering if it was within the bounderies of the contest to ask this question. Define clan for this contest. Gargoyle only?
Greg responds...
Gargoyle clans.
That doesn't mean that these clans don't have honorary members (as Elisa is to the Manhattan clan).
But I'm not sure what your referring to with regard to the New Olympians. Unpure?
Aris Katsaris writes...
Well if *you* can ramble about Theseus, so can I. :-)
I think that his lifepath began even before his conception. Childless Aegeus, goes to the Delphi to ask how he may get children - the oracle warns him *not* to drink wine; tells him how *not* to have children (which implies that it predicts either Aegeus's own death due to Theseus or Theseus' other deeds)
Aegeus doesn't understand the oracle, but Pittheus does - he gets him drunk and has him sleep with Aethra, Pitheus's daughter. It seems he desires to have his grandson on the throne of Athens - and for that cause he doesn't mind using his daughter. So Theseus is a "bastard" - but not the bastard of a love relationship, not even a bastard caused by lust such as Arthur was. He is a bastard whose birth was just a means to an end, a product of politics.
This *has* to screw him up in some ways. His father figure Pittheus is using him. Aethra never cared for Aegeus, and was herself used by her father in the worst way imaginable - could she subconsciously resent her own son because of that? And his relationship with his real father Aegeus begins through the test he places on him to see if he's worthy - talk about conditional love! Given the relationships which created him, it's no wonder that all the relationship he gets into are twisted and diseased in some way.
Then there's his idol: Heracles. While Theseus is still a kid Hercules comes to Troezen - among the children Theseus is the only one who is not terrified by the lion-skin that Hercules is wearing. He has to have noticed the admiration that everyone was giving to Hercules.
And even if Theseus can't know love, he *can* know admiration. So, when he grows up he goes out of his way to do heroic deeds - most other heroes of antiquity (Jason, Bellerophon, even Hercules to a large extent) had their quests forced on them - others like Odysseus simply stumbled upon heroism. But Theseus pursues heroism. He kills the robbers. But his sickened sense of relationships manifests itself: He 'ravishes' the daughters of both Sinis and Cercyon. One could think of a version where this is consentual - but in my mind it seems more reasonable to think that he saw them as trophies and rewards and didn't care what they thought.
He goes to Athens and once again pursues heroism by going to Crete: so as to kill the Minotaur, he doesn't hesitate to promise marriage to Ariadne - manipulation through lust once again - even though he already had a lover (Periboea) among the young women on the ship. He kills Ariadne's half-brother (the Minotaur) and her full brother Deucalion. And then he abandons her because of the wishes of the gods - but even if it was his own idea I don't mind that one - a woman who'd cause her brothers' death isn't one I'd like sleeping next to me - after all Medea was the last famous woman who did that, and Jason would have been better off if he had abandoned her also...
I agree that Antiope is the most 'equal' relationship he gets into, the most genuine one - Antiope seems to truly love or atleast be attracted to Theseus. But we can't forget that Theseus' mission to the Amazons was originally nothing more than another of his heroic quests: He went with the goal of kidnapping their queen - she was (in the beginning atleast) just another trophy... And in one version of the story he treats her as such abandoning her and marrying Phaedra (though in most versions Hippolyta dies
fighting on his side)
His wedding with Phaedra is once again loveless - no need to expand on that. And after his son's death he has to simply not know what to do but fall back to his own habits seeking something he can't have, vainly pursuing happiness through "heroism": And in the case of Helen, all his negative traits, his lovelessness, his rashness, his viewing women as trophies all manifest themselves...
So in my opinion he *is* a tragic character - His deeds seem to have been sprung through the situation which bore him - I can have pity and understanding for him as the product of an extremely disfunctional family. And he's a fascinating character: But if he's a hero, then I see him as providing a dark vision of what heroism can do when it's sought after, rather than stumbled upon.
Greg responds...
Aris, as always, please ramble all you like...
You're version of the myth however, includes things that mine doesn't. This creates two obvious possibilities:
1) My version is whitewashed.
2) Your version is biased.
Either way, we've got some propaganda going.
Now it would be easy to assume that 1 is more likely than 2. After all, most of what we know from Greek myth, we know via the Athenian culture, where Theseus was a hero. One would tend to think that they'd want to present their guy in the best possible light -- thus the whitewashing. It's also possible that the Athenians told the story straight, and that the whitewashing came down the centuries as people tried to make Theseus more of a roll model than he really was.
But I'm going to argue (from a pro-Thesean bias that I'll admit up-front) for #2. Because I think both versions of the myth come from Athens. Take the negative slant on Pittheus, for example. That sounds like propaganda to me. Aegeus has a kid out of wedlock. Don't blame the Athenian king, blame that Troezen trickster Pittheus. But the trickster (or villain label) doesn't sit with the old man that well. There's no hint of godly justice taking him down for that bit of nefarious business. No hint in the myths that he was trying to push young Theseus to claim the throne of Athens or to unite the kingdoms under Troezen control. So I prefer to assume something different. I prefer to think that there was something real between Aethra and Aegeus. I won't necessarily say love, since they hardly knew each other. But I'd like to think they made a real connection. And they made love. I'd also like to think that after Aegeus left, Poseidon showed up in Aegeus' form, and that he and Aethra made love too. That way NONE of them (including Poseidon) really know whether Theseus is the son of a king or of a god.
At any rate, Aegeus and Aethra didn't marry. Marrying a king is big business. Again, I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt. He was straight with her. She still wanted him. They swam out to the island. Shared a sweet night together. And he swam off, but not before leaving provisions as to what to do in the UNLIKELY event that the union resulted in issue. (Remember, he thought he was sterile.)
She didn't throw a fit. And even after she discovered she was pregnant, she let things ride. Pittheus raises the boy without complaint. Teaches him to be a man. At any rate, I don't believe he grew up not knowing love. I think his mother loved him. I think his grandfather loved him. So I won't give him that excuse for anything he did, good or bad.
As for the Herakles stuff... Well, sure young Theseus might have been impressed, but he always took Herc with a grain of salt. Yes, Herc inspired him to "Great Deeds", but I'm not sure that's as bad as you make it sound. And Theseus was always the thinking man's hero. Always using brains as often as -- or more often than -- brawn. And always in control of his faculties, never going mad and slaughtering loved ones mindlessly. Later, when Herc and Theseus went on a few adventures together, he helped keep the big man from going berserker.
Did he rape the bandits' daughters? I hope not. I'm not sure they ever existed. They're not IN every version of the myth. Again, keep in mind, Athens (or at least Athenians) would have been of two minds on Theseus. Yes, he was their hero. But he also abandoned them. Do you love him for the good days? Or do you revile him for the bad? Maybe, a little of both. And maybe both sides twist his story a bit to suit their interpretations. I can't help thinking the truth is in the middle.
Because, NO, I don't think Theseus is a good roll model. He's clearly more fascinating than flat-out heroic. And he didn't end nearly as well as he began. And there's no divine redemption either. No Herculean ascent to Olympus. No godhood. He is human right until the end. And probably after. He is a bastard. In all the negative and misunderstood and put-upon and over-coming connotations of the term. ALL OF THEM.
But back to the narrative...
Was it rape? Were they even the bandits' daughters? Or might they have been slaves that he set free (after a party)? I don't know. But again, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. Because, I see this YOUNG Theseus as a guy struggling to be Lancelot. He's not like Lancelot. He's too damn clever for his own good to really play the Lancelot roll. Too much of a bastard. But he's trying, I think. Inspired not by the true Herakles but by the big man's press, he's setting out as a knight errant to do right. So that he can walk into Athens as a MAN. As someone who DESERVES his birthright. That's the kind of boy that I think Pittheus and Aethra raised. (As I've mentioned before, my thinking is heavily influenced by Mary Renault.)
It's the noble Lancelot in him that sends him to Crete. And yes, of course he kills the Minotaur. The New Olympians may have gotten us to look at this another way, but from his point of view the Minotaur is an out-and-out monster, literally eating the youth of Athens. And the people of Crete, who keep their dirty secret locked up and feed it on the tribute children of their conquered enemies aren't much better (or are arguably worse) than the creature itself. So I shed no tears for Ariadne's brother. This was a rebellion of slaves against their evil masters. If Deucalion got in Theseus' way, so be it.
As for his Athenian lover, well, again, I'd like to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. I'm assuming, for starters, that by custom if not inclination, that Theseus was bisexual. That most of the Athenian youth were. That desperate people in a desperate situation reached out to each other for comfort doesn't trouble me. That they had multiple partners over (do I have this right?) seven years, doesn't bother me either. I think that Periboea may have been one of many lovers. And that she may have had many herself (of both sexes). This doesn't get in the way of him having sincere feelings for Ariadne. Feelings he believed at the time were true love. Romantic infatuation. A Lancelot looking for his Guinevere, and thinking he has found her.
And I don't need the "Medea-excuse" to justify him leaving her later. I've read enough versions of the myth where Dionysus didn't give Theseus a choice in the matter. And that was before I saw Renault's version wherein -- SPOILERS HERE -- Theseus is horrified to see what Ariadne does during the Dionysian rites. He does still love her. But he won't bring someone capable of that back to Athens as his bride.
And I'm not troubled that his intentions en route to battle the Amazons were less than honorable. After all, he was a king, setting out to conquer. It was part of the job description. Besides, it's what he ultimately did, not what he originally intended that truly frames his character. And I think here, as I've said before, he truly fell in love. A love of equals. One of the ONLY Greek heros to fall for a woman who truly was his equal. Instead of conquering the Amazons, he allies with them. He does right by Antiope, until she dies in battle, by his side. This is the true Theseus. Not the kid looking to be a hero. Not the bitter guy he'd become. This is the hero -- in fact, not by design or default, but defined by his actions. The man who loves equally. Who brings constitutional monarchy to his people. This is the great man. But then she dies. And so it can't last.
Phaedra. Yeah. A political marriage. I like to think he was, at least, fond of her. That maybe he hoped to see a bit of Ariadne in her. But she f**ked with his head. And, yes, he was open to it. He let himself be rashly used. He clearly sinned here. I refuse to absolve him for Hyppolytus' death. But that doesn't mean that I don't think he wasn't more sinned against than sinning. Antiope's death killed something in him. He didn't truly know how to raise Hyppolytus without her. I think he indulged the kid and wound up distanced from him. And he indulged his new young wife and wound up a stranger to her. And then he indulged his own bitter temper. And wound up broken.
Broken, but ironically not bent. He's no longer young. But he's still virile. And in a way, that works out very BADLY for him. No sitting back and enjoying the fruits of his labors. He's got too much damn energy for that. So the energy gets channeled into bad friends, stupid choices and wild schemes.
After Hyppolytus' death, well, I have to agree that it's all downhill. (Though I'd change the subconcious motivations, based on my interpretations.) He doesn't care any more. He's empty. This is the third Theseus. Not the young Lancelot. Not the true hero. But the guy left over. The good-looking, well-trained, virile, vital, empty wreck. He did some truly stupid stuff here. But even with the wildly nutty Helen stunt, I can't help loving him all the more for it.
But that's my problem, I guess. :)
Aris Katsaris writes...
Thanks for the comments on Theseus - I do have to wonder how he'd fit in the Gargoyles universe, especially since it seems that in it much of the minotaur story seems to have been human propaganda... :-)
Another fascinating character connected to Theseus is to me Minos - for different reasons. He has no specific 'heroic deed' attributed to him: on the other hand he has had a long rule of benevolent and just rule, holding a kingdom "of many nations and tongues" together (and yeah, I go by Plutarch's and Plato's belief that the tale of him sacrificing men and women to the minotaur was just a case of Athenean propaganda :-) Such a rule may not have the sparkling heroism of such deeds as those of Theseus and Heracles - yet I wonder if that task was in the end even more beneficient and difficult than the ones of most monster-slayers we hear about...
I really appreciate the suggestion of Mary Renault books - I've definitely put them in my "To Read" list... thanks.
Greg responds...
You're welcome. Let me know what you think.
Michael Norton writes...
Why didn't the gargoyles on New Olympus reveal themselves to
Goliath and Angela? The rare discovery of other clans was my favorite part of the series so I would have loved to see them.
Greg responds...
Good question. And I'm honestly not sure I have a good answer, other than the truth that there wasn't time in the episode to cover THAT too.
Eventually, I'd have had to come up with an answer. Were they present at Elisa's trial? Do they live "in town"? Is they're leader unprepared to make contact with three gargoyles who are making a LOUD point to defend a human being? I haven't decided yet. But now you've got me thinking.
Aris Katsaris writes...
How large do you envision New Olympus's population to be? Counted in a few hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands?
And for that matter how large would New Olympus itself be? And where is it located? (I doubt it's in the Mediterannean because it would have most probably been discovered by humans before they managed to discover the cloaking device...
Greg responds...
I'm guessing Atlantic or Pacific. It's fairly big, but not huge. And populated in the thousands.
Todd Jensen writes...
You mentioned in your post on Sleipnir this evening (January 12) that it's possible that New Olympus might be filled with all manner of "bizarre beasts" that were the offspring of Oberon's Children by animals. Would these include, not only the half-human/half-animal beings that we actually saw in that episode (such as minotaurs and centaurs) but also the fully-animal creatures of Greek mythology (e.g., Cerberus, the Chimera, the Hydra, the Nemean Lion, etc.)? I'd been wondering for some time now about their role in the Gargoyles Universe.
Greg responds...
I won't be specific about any of these, but yes, the idea is possible.
niner writes...
Oops, sorry that last one was me.
As long as I'm here I might as well ask those New Olympian questions.
1) What was Spynx's occupation before she became an ambassador to the outside world?
2) When Taurus said Proteus wasn't like other Olympians did he mean that Proteus was the only criminal on New Olympus or that he was the only one that was an insane murderer?
3) On a scale of one to ten, with ten being a sentient android like Data from "Star Trek: The Next Generation" and one being a Steel Clan robot, how inteligent is Talos?
4) Do the Illuminati know about the existence of New Olympus? If not, how would they react when the New Olympians revealed themselves to the human world?
5) If The New Olympians were to become a cartoon show how much of the series would take place in New York and how much of it would take place in New Olympus?
Thank you very much.
Greg responds...
1. Student.
2. Generally, the latter.
3. I hate quantifying things. I'm not a numbers guy. He's smart, o.k.?
4a. No.
4b. Quickly and with determination.
5. Again, don't ask me for percentages. A good amount in both, but I also saw the series as international in scope.
Todd Jensen writes...
You said once that the different varieties of New Olympians have various different life-spans ranging from 13 years to 250 years. Just out of curiosity:
1) Which sub-species of New Olympian (centaur, minotaur, sphinx, winged humanoid a la Boreas, snake-person a la Ekidne, shape-shifter, etc.) do you see as having the 13 year life-span?
2) Which sub-species do you see as having the 250 year life-span?
Greg responds...
I won't be held to this, but it seems to me that any New Olympian who has the blood of a species with a short life span would tend to water down the fay blood and lifespan more.
Siren writes...
Resubmission:
If the show continued, would you might have introduced other mythology characters, such as Pegasus, unicorns, dragons (besides the stone one), etc. If so, would they be considered New Olympians or Fay? And would they speak?
Greg responds...
Everything we did would be decided on a case-by-case basis. There's no way to answer this blanketly.
Aris Katsaris writes...
Judging from Sleipnir, as well as the brief appearance of a Pegasus-type animal in 'The Gathering I" and ofcourse from one's of various mythologies... is there a species of non-sentient "fay beasts"? Or is Sleipnir, Pegasus, Fenrir and so on all sentient fays which simply choose animal forms as their 'favourite' ones?
Greg responds...
There may be fauna on Avalon. And the magic of the place may have had some small effect on them. Like sorcerous radiation.
But fauna would not have attended the Gathering. So any seeming beast you saw there, like Anansi for example, is one of the Children in a form of his or her choosing. (If you see a polar bear walking around the palace, the odds are it's Odin.)
Now Slepnir is another story. If the legends are true, then Slepnir's mother was the trickster Loki, and his father was an actual horse. Making Slepnir half-horse and half-fey. (Which might serve to explain his modern transition from eight legs to four.) I haven't decided 100% if that's the route I'm taking in the Gargoyles universe, but the notion is appealing.
And it would suggest that New Olympus is filled with all sorts of bizarre beasts who are the descendents of various unions between the fey and so-called lower animals.
Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky writes...
I recently saw the "Hercules" episode you wrote, "Grim Avenger"
I laughed my butt off during it. Great job. I particularly liked the bits where Theseus/Grim Avenger kept narrating outloud without realizing it.
I also liked the bits you wrote with Cassandra falling in love with Theseus. She's usually such a cynic, it was fun to see this other side of her.
On the whole, great job. You are great at everything you write.
Greg responds...
Thanks. I liked writing that one. I've always loved the Superman/Batman relationship. And Herakles/Theseus is the original. I just pointed it up a bit more.
Though I should say that the wordless stuff where Cass is running across the beach toward Theseus wasn't mine. I guess the board artist added it.
It was also fun to have Michael Dorn playing another Minotaur.
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