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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending July 15, 2002

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Two Towers> Well, we have teh reassurance from Peter Jackson that he will never change the title........so...... :)
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Sunday, July 14, 2002 03:20:59 PM

Well, I am leaving again. If you are a member of sog please e-mail me so i can e-mail you back with new news ta!
Demona - [avalon@rome.com]
Sunday, July 14, 2002 02:49:24 PM

Hi All!

Look, 2 posts, 2 days - 'tis a sign of the Apocalypse. :)

The Two Towers Petition: Oh, boy. What have I started?
Although the website doesn't mention it, this petition was posted as an April Fool's day joke...

Out of Time... Again.

Goodnight all!!

NEW ZEALAND Sunday, July 14, 2002 11:43:35 AM

Two Towers Petition> i wouldn't worry about taht thing too much. did anyone go read the signatures already signed? i read about twenty and they are funny. no one who signed supported the petition. one person sarcastically said we should rename all Centers in America Centre and take 9's and 1's off phone dials and keyboards! lol...
btw, political correctness sucks... IMHO

Sunday, July 14, 2002 02:02:38 AM

Two Towers petition> It is things like this that I'm sure will cause the poor Professor to spin in his grave. How can anyone be so stupid?!? At worse, it is all a bad case of luck on the part of Peter Jackson. I mean would you want a movie you poured your heart and soul into to remind people of one the worse days in American history? No one would do that deliberately. However, I have to wonder if fate might be involved. I saw this first movie in the triligy in November of last year, and since it was only a few months since 9/11, I was still feeling the shock. In one part of the movie, Frodo asks Gandolf why all this was happening in the world, especally to him (in other words, why did the ring and all the trouble that goes with it fall to him). I don't remember exactly how Gandolf replied, but the general gist I got from this is that no one as to live in times like these, and we didn't do anything to have times like this fall to us. But the most important thing we can do, perhaps the only thing, is to be strong, and have the courage to do what is need to perservire. In the wake of 9/11, I found that very insperational and uplifting, and helped me see the tradedy in a whole new light.

Chance or Fate? I don't know, but I thank God for the good timing.

Xeennexx - [xeennexx@accesstoledo.com]
Saturday, July 13, 2002 09:59:05 PM

Re: Two Towers Petition

What a retard!! Load him on a bus and drive em to the zoo.

Saturday, July 13, 2002 09:44:11 PM

Bluth>Yes, but he branched from that, he wanted the movie to catch the eye of the other gender and age groups. And he felt he succeeded at that.
Saturday, July 13, 2002 09:28:29 PM

While we're on the subject of The Two Towers, has anyone seen this:


Fortunately, it looks like the guy has given up...

Jurgan - [Jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Saturday, July 13, 2002 09:02:38 PM

Hi All!!

Whoa! how time flies (or maybe glides), I haven't posted here for...ummm... 9 months? I've barely managed to read all the comments. But I've suddenly got five uninterupted minutes without work and with the computer, phone line and all, so here goes...

First, for those who haven't seen it - the Trailer for Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers is out! Get it here!
Believe it or not, that was all my news... :)

Jurgan: Welcome! You may even hear from me again one day...:)
You wrote: >>is there anyone else here who saw Gargoyles and then read Shakespeare's Macbeth?<<
Not Macbeth, but 'Legion' did encourage me to read 'Othello'.

Gorebash: The search bar is a cool idea. I've had a blast with it.

Taleweaver: A GI Joe Revival? Hopefully it will be good. It will be interesting to see if the... Misinformed people start claiming the GI Joe is a deliberate slur aimed at the government of Great Britain again.

Time to go... The slavedriver is calling..:)

Goodnight All!!

NEW ZEALAND Saturday, July 13, 2002 06:47:57 PM

Jurgan - TGS releases one story per week, but only when TGS is ready to release the entire season of a series.
Saturday, July 13, 2002 04:10:51 PM

Siren - Those were Don's own words. Fox Studio's wanted a hot animated flick with the target audience being 12-14 year old boys. It doesn't matter that it reached a bigger audience than that. ... that was the goal.

... chill.

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Saturday, July 13, 2002 04:04:08 PM

Don Bluth is NOT gone. Fox Animation Studios (the studio that made Anastasia and Titan A.E.) shut down. Don Bluth is apparently doing everything his own way now. Dragon's Lair will be a prequel to the video game. Don Bluth has jumped around animation studios. From Disney, to MGM, to Amblin, to Fox.

Also I personally have liked very Don Bluth movie I have ever seen. I didn't see Titan A.E. geared soley at 12 year old boys, if it was, then they wouldn't have included a love interest or made Akima as world changing for Cale. It was Akima who changed Cale's mind about helping on the Titan mission. Generally, 12 year old boys don't want girls, kissing, and love a part of it. If Akima wasn't included or was almost never seen in the movie, then I would say, yes, 12 year old boys movie. My 3 year old daughter, a friend's 12 year old daughter, and I (23 years old) to my friends (one is 34 years old, and female), all love that movie.

Saturday, July 13, 2002 03:54:12 PM

Land Before Time> that movie is sooo cool, it still makes me want to cry at the end!!! the sequels also make me want to cry... but for an entirely different reason... :)
Saturday, July 13, 2002 02:00:04 PM

JURGAN - "Don Bluth is gone?" ACK! Don't say it that way, you make it sound like he's DEAD! LOL. Yes, he did "All Dogs", "Land Before Time" (the first one, not the rancid sequels) Etc etc. He's working on a "Dragon's Lair" movie (from the video game).

Personally... I'm no so sure he should be attempting to piece "Dragon's Lair" together by himself, but he has no funding for a real writer. :P Had I gone to our family reunion, I could have asked him more about it in detail... but I flaked to go to the Gathering instead. (Don is my Husband's 2nd cousin.)
If Disney is trying to make a movie that is sold to the same audience as Titan A.E. then I fear they will meet the same fate. It's not easy to market "Cartoons" to 12 year old boys. Animation geared to 12 year old girls does better (See Anastasia for an example!)

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Saturday, July 13, 2002 12:54:03 PM

JURGAN - You wrote: [is there anyone else here who saw Gargoyles and then read Shakespeare's Macbeth?]

I actually read MACBETH before ever seeing GARGOYLES. (It was a high school thing at the time more than a pleasure reading thing.) After seeing GARGOYLES though I went through the book again with a slightly different state of mind and attitude towards it (and towards Shakespeare in general; let's just say that high school english doesn't exactly leave you with a good feeling towards the material. GARGOYLES helped to change that.)

MATT - You wrote: [in fact, one of the biggest reasons i liked Tarzan so much was because of how wonderful and well choreographed the music was.]

TARZAN was wonderfully done so much so that even in translation it carried out well. (The very first time that I saw TARZAN I was Israel and it was in a Hebrew dub. I'm still trying to find a copy of it.)

LURKING FISH - You wrote: [Working on that.. don't you worry ;)]

Not worried, just waiting in anticipation and trying to make some friendly non-complaining type suggestions.

(I hope that my TGS posts haven't sounded like I'm complaining or accusing anyone; I just wanted to make some helpful suggestions. I hope that when TGS Season 4 does finally premiere it will be the beginning of a great rebirth for TGS; a sort of relaunch that will respark interest.)

3x3 EYES - This was on the Action Channel last night. I stumbled across it but notice that Greg mentioned in his latest responses that it was going to be on. I've never seen the series before (and they only showed the first four episodes last night for some reason) but the dub was really well done. (Now that I've seen it I really have to make sure that the next DVD I pick up will be the 3x3 EYES collection - the only thing holding me back was the 70 dollar price tag. But I swear I will own it one of these days!)

All the actors did excellent work but I was really impressed by Christian Cambell and Brigitte Bako. I'd only heard him in MAX STEEL before but he really fit the character of Yakumo completely. I can't praise his preformance enough.

And Brigitte was excellent as Pai/Sanjiyan; she played both versions of the character perfectly. As Pai I didn't recognize that it was her voice. She sounded completely different. Very well done.

It was a little easier to recognize that it was her when she was playing Sanjiyan. If she hadn't had to switch over to that version (and I hadn't heard here that it was her) I wouldn't have been completely sure that it was her. She did that well in carrying over Pai's light innocent "Hayashibara" voice and then switching to a serious majestic sound.

And let me just say one word on Keith David, the character that he was playing, and his preformance: Priceless!

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, July 13, 2002 10:13:06 AM

Tarzan and Phil Collins. Okay I can't think of the two withouth thinking of Southpark and Ritalin and Ritalout.

Jurgan---"also remember you saying that a woman touched your breasts to see if they were real, or some such."

Actually that was Mara~sama and Mooncat seeing how they "bounced". "and then read Shakespeare's Macbeth?"

Read Macbeth first. I was in my senior year and it was during the first season of gargoyles.. We watched a tape of man giving a speech about the play and HE pointed out what the REAL Macbeth was like.
"I do plan on reading Midsummer Night's Dream, though, and that's entirely because of Puck et. Al."
See if you college offers a Shakespeare course. I took one and it was fun.

Leo---"It had an animatronic country band lead by a bear named "Billy-Bob." "

I think we have a Billy Bob mug around here.

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Fl, U.S.A
Saturday, July 13, 2002 09:48:35 AM

Re: Disney's "Tarzan" - Greg made a good point at the Gathering about the music in "Tarzan." There's a movie that WANTED to be a musical, SHOULD have been a musical, but was not done as a musical because at the time it was made Disney had decided that they'd done too many musicals and the audiences were getting tired of them. So instead of having the characters sing the songs, Phil Collins was brought in to sing them instead. Or as the term was coined by Lanny, "Tarzan" was "Collinized."

That's not mean to deride Phil Collins. I'm a big fan of Phil Collins and the music he wrote and performed for "Tarzan", for the most part, was very well done. The only song I can't stand on the soundtrack is the movie version of the percussion instrumental "Raiding the Camp" where they let Rosy O'Donnell sing. But when you watch "Tarzan", you can tell that there's a different feel to the way the music meshes with the visuals than from the way movies like "The Lion King" and "Aladdin" were handled.

And that's my two bits on that. ;)

Patrick Toman
Saturday, July 13, 2002 08:36:45 AM

Hold on, question:

I'm new to this, so forgive my ignorance, but I've never seen any new TGS stuff posted since I found it. When they release new ones, do they release one episode at a time or a whole season at once? I thought it was the former, but one comment sounds like it was the other way.

Jurgan - [Jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Saturday, July 13, 2002 01:20:26 AM

No, I eventually had to read Macbeth for school. I do plan on reading Midsummer Night's Dream, though, and that's entirely because of Puck et. al.

Chuckie Cheese and Showbiz are the exact same thing, they just changed the name at some point. I used to be scared of the animatronic bands. I would hide under the tables. Country Bears is just sad. Makes me fear for the future of movies.

Don Bluth is gone? That's a real shame- they were the ones who made "All Dogs Go to Heaven," right?
Jurgan - [Jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Saturday, July 13, 2002 01:16:48 AM

First, see my comments on in the TGS CR about updates to Timedancer's status.

Second, TGS generally works best when one series is being written and another series is in breakdowns. Why? So there is always new season for a series waiting to be written once the new season for a different series is completed and ready to be published. That explains the big time lap. Gargoyles was being released when Timedancer breakdowns began and there were no stories to write until Timedancer breakdowns were completed. When Timedancer season 4 breakdowns was completed, it was fairly obvious that there was no way to have the 1st story of the season ready to be read at the Gathering 2001. That's how long breakdowns lasted.

Saturday, July 13, 2002 01:14:46 AM

Don Bluth>Fox Animation Studios shut down after Titan A.E. They just gave up, just like that. So Don Bluth is still making the Dragon's Lair movie, I am not sure how long before it will be done. Anywhere between 2003-2005, I am guessing. About the Titan A.E. thing, I know it was suttle, and I don't think Don Bluth was going for that at all. I met him and Gary Goldman at DragonCon last year, two very awesome guys! I just find Treasure Planet seems more of a ripoff of Titan A.E. And I do think the moon was intentional. When I met Don Bluth, I gave him a list of suggestions for other movies, whether he has looked into them, I'm not sure. I hope to meet him again and ask. He'll remember me, I was the strange girl who asked for a drawing of "Stith in a dress". He and Gary had a good laugh and I got a funny drawing. Check out www.donbluth.com for updates and you can ask them questions, like Greg, they anwser them themselves.
Saturday, July 13, 2002 01:10:52 AM

Airwalker: " It sounds harsh but it seems like something of a radical shakeup might be needed for TGS to wake it up a bit"

Working on that.. don't you worry ;)

Lurking Fish
Friday, July 12, 2002 11:58:17 PM

Leo> I would be 'whoareyou2" ;)

I'm so glad all you people had fun at the con ^_^

BUD CLARE! Why weren;t you at the con!?

MAui - [Hi my name is MAui and I'm a con staff survivor!]
Friday, July 12, 2002 11:44:23 PM

I'm almost done with my G2002 Photo Gallery. Working on thumbnail pages. I've received many comments about my "bobbing Greg Weisman head." Note to Greg W: A few of my pics ore of you and Greg G. showing the concept drawings for the "comedy" version of the show. Just to be safe, I "pixled out" the drawings in the photos. I hope that's enough. :-)

Treasure Planet> I saw the trailer when I went to see "Lilo." I don't have any high hopes for it. It didn't bother me as much as the "Country Bears" trailer I saw right before it. I started reminiscing about going to "Shobiz Pizza" when I was a kid. (Showbiz was like "Chuckie Cheeze") It had an animatronic country band lead by a bear named "Billy-Bob."
Yorktown, Va
Friday, July 12, 2002 11:15:25 PM

Disney film music> since it was mentioned, i just thought i'd say that Phil Collins doing the music for Tarzan was great, IMHO. in fact, one of the biggest reasons i liked Tarzan so much was because of how wonderful and well choreographed the music was. IMHO, Tarzan would've only been a decent movie without the music it has. with the music i think its one of Disneys best!
Friday, July 12, 2002 10:53:06 PM

Jurgan - Did Gargoyles inspire you to read Macbeth? That is SO COOL! I love this show... I love it goooood. :)
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Friday, July 12, 2002 10:39:13 PM

Just wondering, is there anyone else here who saw Gargoyles and then read Shakespeare's Macbeth? I remember being really confused because I didn't realize just how different it was (for example, I was expecting the Weird Sisters to be more ambiguous than the demonic creatures Shakespeare made).

Oh, and it's just sad when you use an abbreviation for "real life."
Jurgan - [Jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Friday, July 12, 2002 09:56:14 PM

AIRWALKER - Well, the main reason for the hold-up with "Timedancer" is this. Most of the episodes were written and are going through Edits at present. Many of them are even completed. But one of the episodes in the "early middle" is still being written - largely because we had to reassign it after one of the writers (it has a very unique set-up which required multiple writers) disappeared without turning in his part - and so that's been a major source for the delay. We're hoping to get that particular episode fully written soon, however.

As for "Pendragon", it's too late to scrap it for this season, since we've already done some early Breakdowns work on it (although that came to a halt after nearly all the Breakdowns staff stopped working on it for various reasons, to the point where I was turning out outlines and ideas for it only to discover that nobody was commenting on them), and also since we wound up holding an "emergency recruitment drive" for Pendragon Breakdowns people in the TGS Comment Room, which has already received, in the past two weeks, six applicants - and it wouldn't be fair to them to turn them away.

The main problem with TGS was more the fact that the heads of the Writing and Edits Departments wound up with so much RL on their plates that they weren't able to enforce deadlines for writing and editing stories, which resulted in a lot of the writers and editors falling behind, with no date to aim for. Hopefully, we've learned from that.

On a happier note, I may have introduced a few more people to "Gargoyles". I'm a subscriber to a Tolkien newsletter (it's run by a cousin of mine out in California), and I couldn't resist telling my cousin, during one of my letters to her newsletter, a little about "Gargoyles" recently - based on John Rhys-Davies turning up as Gimli in the recent LotR movie. I just received the July 2002 issue from her in the mail today, and it had printed my description of "Gargoyles" (which focused on both the role of Macbeth - on account of the Rhys-Davies connection - stressing in particular how they based him on the historical rather than the Shakespearean Macbeth - and the events in "Eye of the Storm" - I'd seen a certain parallel in them to the conflict with Sauron over the Ring, with the Eye in the role of the Ring and Odin in the role of Sauron; of course, the big difference was that returning the Eye to Odin was the right thing to do here). It was quite a pleasant surprise to actually see my comments in print in the newsletter.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, July 12, 2002 07:12:13 PM

BLAISE - You wrote: [Actually, there was an ALADDIN themed LILO AND STITCH trailer--and you can see a little Quicktime video of it at the official movie site.]

I took a look at it; loved Aladdin's reaction :-)

All the one's they had up at the site were great but I still think that the BEAUTY AND THE BEAST one was the best of the bunch.

JURGAN - Welcome!

ALEX - You wrote: [But whether a story that may or may not involve a revolt by the inhabitants of the second Romulan homeworld, Remus, and the attempts to create an enemy more fearsome that the Borg or the Dominion, will succeed, I cannot say.]

For now I'm just hoping that this new enemy is on the acceptable Trek Movie level; that was the problem with ST9. The villains would have been great for an episode or two but not for a movie. (Same thing happened with ST5.) If this movie can get the same feeling of excitement the other good Trek movies carried to the screen (WRATH OF KHAN, VOYAGE HOME, UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY and FIRST CONTACT) then it'll be a success in my book. (And maybe it'll breathe some life back into TREK; after DS9 ended I thought that TREK had gotten a little tired and needed a short break to recharge itself. And when VOYAGER limped off the air I became sure of that fact.)

SPACEBABIE - You wrote: [They are all pretty good.]

They are all well done (however I might disagree with some of the direction some of them plotlines took) and I don't mean to suggest otherwise. But with a lack of manpower and time something has to give. TGS has been "off the air" for a an extremely long period of time. That kind of schedule is unworkable. You lose casual audience and that doesn't help.

(And again I say something more substancial should be posted on the main TGS page than "1/4 of TGS TIMEDANCER is done"; more regular and detailed postings should be put up letting casual non-comment room attending people know what's going on.)

The whole idea of TGS is to help keep fan interest going and its not doing that when its not there. I accuse nobody for this; I completely accept and understand RL pressures that slow down a voluntary project like TGS. But if there's too much on the plate right now then maybe a little bit of it needs to be taken off.

You wrote: [Timedancer is my personal favorite]

Mine too. And I do want to see many more TGS TIMEDANCER stories done. But we should remember that its a series that has a 40 year time period its set in and that a huge chunk of that time has passed in the series itself already. It's going to end eventually (in fact you could say that the story has already ended because the cast returned to the main series already) so maybe TGS should start to lay down the framework of when they are going to finish it so they can concentrate working on the main series at the very least.

You wrote: [Can't get rid of the main one and there is no way on this God's Green earth that Todd will give up Pendragon or Dark Ages.]

Actually I don't think any work on TGS DARK AGES has been done in a while although I don't know that for sure. I do know that it hasn't even had a third season while fourth seasons are in the works for the other series. So in reality we could already say that this series is effectively cancelled for the time being.

So we basically have only three series - two main series (TGS GARGOYLES and PENDRAGON) and a sidestory series (TGS TIMEDANCER). Given that (and given that TIMEDANCER and TGS GARGOYLES are currently being worked on) I would suggest that it might be a good idea to hold off on starting PENDRAGON until at least TIMEDANCER is done for this season. (And with that statement I can suddenly hear sounds of Todd starting to scream NOOOOOO! ala Pedro from EXCEL SAGA :-) :-) ) And then maybe bring TGS TIMEDANCER to a close so that more manpower can be devoted to the main series.

This won't make anyone happy but something has to be done to bring everything on schedule. As it is if another series starts up work, we'll never see any of the first two series. It sounds harsh but it seems like something of a radical shakeup might be needed for TGS to wake it up a bit. Its been around since 1997 after all - some rearragement and reconstruction might be a good excuse to maybe relaunch the TGS site and respark interest in it.

IRC GOLIATH - You wrote: [I was simply hoping to rouse up a brainstorming session.]

I have some ideas besides what I posted all the way in the beginning of the week. I figure that major brainstorming will happen much more as we get more info or at the very least a release date.

You wrote: [I make a DVD run almost every Tuesday (when new releases come out) and it's weird to think, as I walk down the isles, that one day here soon I'll see Gargoyles sitting upon the shelf]

I also make DVD runs (mainly anime) like that (although I go on Wednsday so I can go comic/manga shopping too).

I can't wait to see GARGOYLES DVDs on the shelf too, then flooding everywhere, selling well, reviving the series, bring along a few spinoffs, helping a comic and novel series start up...... you know so on and so forth.

You pick up any interesting DVDs recently?

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, July 12, 2002 06:16:44 PM

Yes, Spacebabie, I remember you all too well. That costume was certainly... diverting. I also remember you saying that a woman touched your breasts to see if they were real, or some such. I highly doubt that I'll make it to Manhattan next year. That's a long haul.

I just saw L&S yesterday. It was pretty good, though certainly no Lion King, but really, what is? Disney's sort of a victim of their own success, like Squaresoft was when they put out Final Fantasy III. I remember Greg talking about the decline in song quality after Howard Ashram died. That might help explain it. For Lion King they had Elton John, but after that...

Those Treasure Planet ads did look like the Dreamworks logo at first. Yeah, that's probably intentional.

This room is confusing, seeing as there's only one thread. I can't remember all the different topics.
Jurgan - [Jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Friday, July 12, 2002 03:56:44 PM

Treasure Planet> I agree that Titan AE rip-off is a bit harsh, but I know when I originally saw the trailer I thought to myself "YAY! New Don Bluth movie!" Needless to say I was shocked and amazed once I learned the truth. I think part of my assumption that is was Don Bluth is because Dreamworks had their animated movie for the year (Spirit), Disney had theirs (Lilo & Stitch), Fox isn't doing one as far as I know, which kind of left the reign to be taken by Don Bluth... Of course, I should have remembered from meeting him at E3 that he currently has his hands full with Dragon's Lair 3D.
Getting back to the trailer, I think I was typecasting the theme of it to that of Titan AE as opposed to the graphical style (I've heard more people compare that to Final Fantasy 10). But can you blame me? Two animated movies by the same company in one year?! That's unpossible (sic)!!!

Lilo & Stitch> In the meantime, I would like to say that I thoroughly enjoyed Lilo & Stitch and will probably go see it a 4th time here soon. I just hope they put more inter-Stitch-als on the DVD including the 4 that are already out (there were a few characters in the movie poster than never had spoof trailers).

Kingdom Hearts> Since we're on a Disney kick, anybody been following this game's progress?

Gargoyles on DVD> When I originally made the posting suggesting that we collectively pimp the DVD I didn't mean right this second. But it's not something that shouldn't be on our minds either. We have a year to prepare and come up with good ideas to help (and mentioning that the creator of the show was involved with the production of the DVD is a pretty good selling point)... but ultimately, yes, we need to wait for more info. I was simply hoping to rouse up a brainstorming session.
I personally can't wait :) I make a DVD run almost every Tuesday (when new releases come out) and it's weird to think, as I walk down the isles, that one day here soon I'll see Gargoyles sitting upon the shelf (or, hopefully it'll sell out and I wont :D)... Kinna fun! But weird.

IRC Goliath - [(I use ellipses too much)]
Can I be a mongoose-dog?
Friday, July 12, 2002 03:48:26 PM

More fearsome than the borg? How about that species-847 somethingorother, they were pretty scary.

Airwalker> I don't think eliminating one would be the only choice. How about splitting it up.

Friday, July 12, 2002 03:18:37 PM

JURGAN - Welcome! It's great to have you here. Hope you will make it to the next Gathering as well!

SPACEBABIE - "You remember Lady Marmalade don?t you?" Oh yeah! Baby! How could we forget! ::wink wink:: :)

LILO AND STITCH TRAILERS - There was one for the following movies:

Beauty and the Beast
Lion King
The Little Mermaid

Each one ending with someone telling Stitch to "Get your own movie!" (they can all be found on the Disney website)

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Friday, July 12, 2002 11:10:30 AM

Saw the gargoyle gatoraid commercial again. It aired during Beyond Beliefe with Jonathon Frakes, so it added a kind of edge to the commercial.
Taleweaver---"If they bring back the cool characters; Stormshadow, Destro, Dusty, Wild Bill, Alpine and Bazooka, "

Destro was the man. He and the Baroness were my two favorite Cobras. Good point on the Joes, but I also hope they bring back Shipwreck and Snakeeyes

Airwalker---"and eliminate another so that you can concentrate on the remaining two of them which might be easier to work on than four at a time."

I think they work on one or two at a time. As for eliminating which one would you suggest? They are all pretty good. Timedancer is my personal favorite, Can't get rid of the main one and there is no way on this God's Green earth that Todd will give up Pendragon or Dark Ages.

Siryn---"So the orphan boy, key to a treasure, and betraying friend are the similarities."

So it's just slight yet suttle similarities.

Jurgen--"(I was one of the three Xanatoses (Xanati?) and the only one without a Fox accompanying), "

I was right next to you. You remember Lady Marmalade don't you?

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, USA
Friday, July 12, 2002 10:30:28 AM

Re: ST Nemesis - A quick look at the IMDb listing for the film reveals that a non-Trek director named Stuart Baird too over for Frakes, although I can't imagine why. His work as director is limited to the entertaining if slightly absurd "Executive Decision" with Kurt Russell, and "US Marshalls," the semi-sequel to "The Fugitive."

Also of note is that John Logan, who wrote "Gladiator," wrote the screenplay from a story he co-wrote with Rick Berman and Brent Spiner, the latter apparently looking for a way to retire Data while he is still young enough to play an immortal android. For those of us who are tired of Brannon Braga's ever-diminishing contributions to Trek lore, the good news is that he is not involved with the film.

But whether a story that may or may not involve a revolt by the inhabitants of the second Romulan homeworld, Remus, and the attempts to create an enemy more fearsome that the Borg or the Dominion, will succeed, I cannot say.
Alex Wittenberg/Simon DelMonte - [sdelmonte@aol.com]
Flushing, NY, USA
Friday, July 12, 2002 10:20:26 AM

Hello, all! Never been here before, so I'm saying hi to everyone. I was at The Gathering a couple weeks ago (I was one of the three Xanatoses (Xanati?) and the only one without a Fox accompanying), so now I figured I might as well come here. Greetings, all!
Jurgan - [Jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Charleston, SC, USA
Friday, July 12, 2002 02:12:37 AM

Site update> many new and lovely pics in the Gallery, thank you so much to the artists! Clickie or go to http://www.eskimo.com/~vecna/new_stuff.html to see.

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Thursday, July 11, 2002 11:36:47 PM

****Blaise walks into the Room (very normally, through a door) and collapses into a squishy, overstuffed chair (that conveniently appears out of nowhere).**** Man! My temp job ends tomorrow, and though I'll miss the income and the people, I won't miss the phones (12 calls coming in, all within the space of a minute, and each caller acting like they're the only person calling at the time).
Sorry. Just a bout of self-pity. I'm over it now.

AIRWALKER> Actually, there was an ALADDIN themed LILO AND STITCH trailer--and you can see a little Quicktime video of it at the official movie site.

GARGOYLES DVD> Well, since they've asked Greg to be involved, I'm feeling quite a bit more optimistic. I would love to see a commentary track, or the original storyboard pitch and all.

ATLANTIS> I payed money to see it, and I'm glad. I liked it. And I'll try to find that "Special Edition" DVD (when I can afford it again).
As for the ATLANTIS vs. NADIA thing, I've seen sites for both sides of the argument, and I haven't seen anything that pushes me fully into one camp or the other. KIMBA and THE LION KING seems more suspicious to me.

Well, that's enough out of me. At least until I've got another thought that's dying to get out. Until then, farewell. ****Blaise sinks into the chair. No, really! He SINKS straight into the cusions of the chair. The chair gives a little *burp* and then hops out of the Comment Room.****

Thursday, July 11, 2002 10:48:07 PM

Spacebabie>Only slightly, just those two reasons I can think of. I do like Titan A.E. and I don't see it as any rip off of Treasure Island. That one critic who said Titan A.E. is what Star Wars fans have been waiting for is wrong though, I think. I'm not a big fan of Star Wars, but I can say for a fact, Star Wars fans have been waiting for Star Wars Episode 1,2,&3, not Titan A.E. :P Because the gold will only effect those who find it. While the Titan affects all human beings. So the orphan boy, key to a treasure, and betraying friend are the similarities. I just feel Disney is pulling straws these days. Lilo and Stitch was good, but was no Lion King on any level. It was better then Emperor's New Groove and Atlantis, but I liked Mulan and Hunchback better then Lilo and Stitch. For now, Disney has lost that spark. Every now and then, they gain it back. Such as the period between Walt's death till Little Mermaid. The great renassiance of Disney films with Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, and Lion King. After Lion King, Disney found it couldn't top itself again. Not so far anyways. They probably will eventually. The story of Lilo and Stitch was very good I think. Modern, and it really relates to a lot of familes. Also, the first original story ever by Disney. It was based on the ideas and watercolor paintings of Chris Sanders, who also directed and did the voice and designer of Stitch...Forget it he produced it.
Thursday, July 11, 2002 10:27:19 PM

TODD - You wrote: [Um, it's "The Two Towers", not "The Twin Towers".]

Yeah, I realized that slip once it was posted but was kind of hoping nobody would notice :-)

SPACEBABIE - You wrote: [I guess when Timedancer starts in TGS you might return their as well.]

Yeah, I'm waiting for TGS to start up again. I wouldn't want to announce a return and then drop off into the background for god knows how long because there's no new TGS material to talk about.

I understand completely about RL delays behind what's going on but I hope that it can eventually come to some sort of solid schedule again. (Or at least a more regular sort of update on the main TGS page - people who might just keep up with TGS without visiting the comment rooms probably wouldn't have any idea whats going on with it.)

As a suggestion I should say that it might be necessary to trim down one of the series and eliminate another so that you can concentrate on the remaining two of them which might be easier to work on than four at a time. (And also as a side note it might be a good idea to maybe have some sort of short story or a few new illustrations put up on the site to keep reader interest; maybe some sort of Coming Attractions. Or perhaps some short (in the realm of 2-3 pages) side-story; or even maybe trying to get someone working on that Illustrated Quotes idea that has a link on the site that loops back to the main page.)

TALEWEAVER - You wrote: [Beast Wars and Beast Machines was a good-great continuation of Transformers, but TF: Robots in Disguise was abysmal.]

BEAST WARS was great especially in Season 2 and 3. BEAST MACHINES had fabulous CGI and the kernels of some great ideas but I felt that some of it didn't carry out properly. BM S1 felt perfectly paced if you never see S2. But the two of them together has nothing much happen in S1 and too much happen in S2 with a lot of good ideas getting lost along the way.

Frankly I thought that the problem of BM was illustrated extremely well by the last episode - the Primal/Megatron fight aside (because it was so cool except for the ending of it which shouldn't have worked out that way and demands a leap of logic to work) the episode shows that while BW concentrated on the entire cast, BM became just about Primal vs Megatron alone with their two fundamentalist ideologies pitted against each other and the rest of the cast more or less sidelined or dumbed down to accept one view or the other.

The rest of the cast was nothing more than epilogue filler when they should have been major players in the final battle and in the other battles in general. Instead Primal got visions and while everyone waited for him to start sounding sane again. I was a bit suprised that BM Silverbolt (basically pissed off Silverbolt) and Blackarachnia didn't start revolting a bit and starting to do stuff on their own. Or at least trying to force Primal to start thinking for himself instead of trusting hallucinations to help him run a resistance.

(I'm also upset that Silverbolt/BlackArachnia got all that buildup in S1 that took forever and then in S2 once he returns it gets more or less sidelined so they can all talk about how good organics are and how Primal should transform the planet and the captive sparks to it without even bothering to ask them.)

As for TF: Robots in Disguise, that was awful. I remember seeing the Japanese version in college - it was so bad that it was actually funny (which is what the series was written out to be in the original - the first Transformers comedy series).

You wrote: [I know it's possible to record videotape episodes on VCD. I just need to figure out how to do that.]

If you do figure it out then please let me know how. I want to move my first run copies of the episodes to a longer lasting format and at this point other than AWAKENINGS we don't really know if the rest of the series will make it to DVD. I'd rather not lost my unedited episode copies to VHS degration.

JIM R - You wrote: [Star Trek Nemesis does look like it's going to be as good as First Contact, although I'm not sure if it was directed by Frakes.]

It seems that the STAR TREK movie curse might be holding true (you know odd numbered movies were in the acceptable but not great range while even numbered movies tend to be extremely well done). I do hope that it was Frakes that directed NEMESIS. ST9 wasn't badly done; most of its problems had more to do with the material they were dealing with than with anything else - the story just wasn't epic enough especially after FIRST CONTACT.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, July 11, 2002 09:50:00 PM

Star Trek Nemesis does look like it's going to be as good as First Contact, although I'm not sure if it was directed by Frakes. Anyone who's seen the preview trailer has noticed that the TNG crew will be using ground vehicles?! Since when in Star Trek have you ever seen anyone driving ground vehicles or something that doesn't fly or hover in the 24th century? But it does look sweet...

Same with the Two Towers. Man, I can't wait until December, but it's soooo far away!!!

Jim R. - [email-jim@lycos.com]
Thursday, July 11, 2002 04:04:37 PM

Hello all,
I'm glad to hear everyone had a great time at the Gathering. still reading journals and diaries of the event.

Gi Joe> Yes, it's one Tues-Fri at 1 am on Cartoon Network. They just finished the GI Joe movie with Don Johnson. I'm split on the idea of reviving the show. GI Joe, Transformers, Robotech and Voltron where the cartoons I grew up on. I grew up with all cartoons, but those four were the ones that I learned how to operate the VCR for. I'd love to see these shows again.

I'm cautiously optimistic though. Revivals have had mixed results. Beast Wars and Beast Machines was a good-great continuation of Transformers, but TF: Robots in Disguise was abysmal. Voltron 3D was good in the space battles with the lions, but the upclose and personal shots weren't anything to crow about. GI Joe had a weak revival with GI Joe Extreme. If they bring back the cool characters; Stormshadow, Destro, Dusty, Wild Bill, Alpine and Bazooka, and keep it to the miniseries plots, it might be worth it. If it doesn't do more than foil the evil plot of the day, I don't think it will sell.

FYI: I'll be heading to Disneyland next week for my yearly pilmgrimage on its big 47. I'll keep an eye out for the Gargoyle pins. I used to collect pins with a passion. I still of the Disneyland 30th anniversary pins. I'm hanging on to those suckers. But when they started cranking them out like now, it's hard to keep up.

Gargoyles on DVD> I'm all for it. I know it's possible to record videotape episodes on VCD. I just need to figure out how to do that.

On a different note> I'm working on a Communications project, sort of like a thesis. I was wondering if you all could give me any thoughts about stock characters, storylines and devices. Any thoughts?

Well, I'm off to help my mom move. Tune in next week, same Bat-Time, Same Bat-Channel.

Taleweaver - [loremaster27@hotmail.com]
Thursday, July 11, 2002 01:14:15 PM

Gorebash: "So why was the movie remixed then? That's seems like a lot of extra work."
If I recall the story correctly-the movie version of "awakenings" was done first for a "test viewing" of the show(to get an idea how audiences would react to the show". The 5 part "awakenings" eps were re edited and audio remixed to "punch up" the sound. The movie sound effects to me are more subtle and realistic(especially the gun shots). Generally, the audio and sound effects are quieter-so for the TV version they made the sound effects louder and somewhat less "realistic"(IMHO). As for the different lines between the 2, one of these days I'm going to go through both the show and movie and make mp3s of the differences.

Thursday, July 11, 2002 12:17:24 PM

Sowee fer not postin in a while.
Mot much has happened. finally saw Lilo and Stich. Lilo is a very creative girl. I used to make up stories too but I didn't use them as excuses. I didn't listen to Elvis as a child, but I did listen to the Monkees, and this was in the eighties..my first REAL album was Cyni Lauper when I was seven.
Todd---yes, "Kingdom" does precede "Monsters". (They simply aired the eps out of order)

Okay thanks for clearing that up for me.

Happy belated birthday Alex Xanatos

Jennifer A---"and one of the most prodominant of those languages was clearly French."
Poor Mole I think he really liked Kida.
"They only put two episodes each on the VHS. "
There are only two eps of Eva per tape. That's why I'm ordering the DVDs

Airwalker---WB I guess when Timedancer starts in TGS you might return their as well.

Gorebash---"Was it just me or was that Keith David doing the voice-over for the Gatorade commercial,"
I finally saw that commercial last night and was waiting for the voice over. When I heared it I went weeeee.

Greg---"I mean how else would you have them handle the material?"

Good point as much as I love anime I appreciate classic literature more.

Siryn---"Is it just me or does Treaure Planet look more like a bunch of different movies in one.... First, when I saw the preview, I saw the "moon", I thought, "Oh cool, a Dreamworks picture.".

That thought first appeared in my head until is the saw the city and then I thought "It's the Moon Kingdom"

"And the other movie it reminded me of was Titan A.E."Well with those examples you gave does that mean Titan AE is actually a sci fi version of Treasure Island?

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Fl, U.S.A
Thursday, July 11, 2002 12:05:09 PM

AIRWALKER - Um, it's "The Two Towers", not "The Twin Towers".

I was visiting a used bookstore yesterday, and looking through the history section, found a book entitled "Royal Scotland", and looked through it a bit, just to see if it mentioned any of the early Scottish kings like Macbeth. And in the course of it, I came upon one particularly astonishing bit. It was talking about King Malcolm II (the grandfather of Duncan and great-grandfather of Canmore - he briefly shows up in "Avalon Part One" as Kenneth's son who has to make a run for it after Constantine usurps the throne), and mentioned that he died as a result of wounds received in a battle at a place called Hunter's Hill. Given who his descendants were, I couldn't help but find that particular place name a bit - well, uncanny.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, July 11, 2002 08:31:39 AM

Whoa... I loaded the CR and for a minute there I thought I'd been time-warped back to 1998. A big "Welcome back!" to all the old fans. We've missed you guys! :)

Gargoyles on DVD > Putting the same material in "The Heroes Awaken" VHS onto a DVD and calling it done would be cheap and easy, yes, but I've gotta suspect that the Disney marketing people are more savvy than that. The whole advantage DVD has over VHS is the potential for including a value-added features like commentary tracks, unseen footage, and "behind the scenes" type stuff. They're going to want (we hope) to release something that fans will buy in mass quantities because there's cool new stuff included. Something that's merely a retread of what's already gone out on VHS wouldn't have the same kind of consumer appeal.

Patrick Toman
Thursday, July 11, 2002 07:02:31 AM

Wow, it's just total Return of the Old Guard around here lately! Great to see those familiar names again.

Thursday, July 11, 2002 05:02:15 AM

Pins -- I got one for my birthday! HOORAY! FYI, the gift giver (Kevin Broden, for those who might have met him at G2001) says there were about 15 more at the Disney Store at Brea Mall for those in the Los Angeles/Orange County area searching them out.

Jimmy -- GI JOE currently shows up on my local schedule as airing at 1:30 AM weeknights (or is that early weekday mornings) on Cartoon Network. Haven't actually stayed up to confirm that though.

Shan - [shan@dm.net]
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:17:06 PM

Sorry for double post...but...

Treasure Planet>Is it just me or does Treaure Planet look more like a bunch of different movies in one....
First, when I saw the preview, I saw the "moon", I thought, "Oh cool, a Dreamworks picture."...I know how much Dreamworks sticks Disney jabs in its movies, I wonder if that was Disney intential jab back. Also, the animation seemed similar to Atlantis, which I personally found abit annoying, what was with the hands? And the other movie it reminded me of was Titan A.E. Titan A.E. does have a slightly similar story to Treasure Island. Orphan boy is the key to a great treasure. In Treasure Island, gold and jewels. In Titan A.E. a spaceship that can create humans a new home. Also, Korso befriends Cale only to betray him. Just as Long John Silver did. It's been a long time since I've seen the old Disney movie, so those are the only similarites I can think of. I just don't see Treasure Planet doing much better then Atlantis.

Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:11:23 PM

Mooncat about PETA>I was talking about the really extreme PETA members. In their eyes, those animals are suffering anyways. If they spread Mad Cow into the beef industry, they would lose millions. And even if the rich can only buy it, they are the minority, the middle and lower class are the majority. And if they can stop a majority from eating beef, maybe even ever again (Many people in England are afraid to eat beef again, and admit to it, look what happened when Oprah made her statements). Even to stop 10% of the U.S. public from ever eating beef again (either due to money or fear), would make them happy.
I do know about they say spay and neuter all animals and pets are slavery, yadda yadda. A majority of PETA members no longer believe that philosophy, most believe breeding needs to be highly regulated. No more backyard breeders, puppy mills, all pets (as in you have no intentions of breeding your pet) to be neutered/spayed, one litter a year for each female, and only certain dogs/cats/horses can breed,...etc...Personally, yes, I do believe these ideas are good, hard, might be impossible to bring to reality, but are good ideas. I work at a grooming shop and I see a lot of animals that probably show never have been born. Today alone, a man came in with his dog who "just locked up a week ago", so she might be a week pregnant, and he wants us to bathe her. She is also far from any show dog and was doing little for the gene pool. Overbreeding is what caused so many purebreds to have health and behaviour problems. Dalmations and cocker spaniels use to be great dogs, both ruined by overbreeding. So yes, I believe there should be heavy regulations. Puppy mills busts shouldn't happen when 500 animals have been suffering for years. Puppy mills should be stopped before they can start. Why would anyone be buying a bunch of different breeds, males and females?
The other good thing PETA does is linked to fur coats. In the 80s, they would throw cans of red paint of people wearing fur. Today, they still have the naked stars doing billboards, but they have a new way of dealing with furs. If you have a fur coat/stole and are to a point today that you don't want it, you feel bad for buying it, you can take it or send it to PETA. They use them in demostrations. Sometimes they burn piles of them, others they cover them in red paint. And the newest way of using them is giving them to the homeless of New York to keep them warm at night. And recently, they sents 1000s of furs to the war torn Middle East, to keep the innocent refugees warm on the cold nights.

Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:05:21 PM

CRZYDEMONA - You wrote: [Treasure Planet is a redo of Robert Louis Stevenson's Treasure Island... only this time, the setting is in space. Still... when I see that big ship in space with a pirate flag on it... I can't NOT think of Captain Harlock.]

Thanks for the info and the link. The ships they have do sort of remind me of the ones from Captain Harlock but it isn't as strong as I first imagined. Whey you first mentioned the Harlock similarity I had visions of Harlock and Esmereldes done in Disney style standing on the Arcadia and breaking out into long Disney style song. :-) The trailer on the other hand (which looks very good by the way) doesn't even come close in touch with anything Harlock other than the fact that both of them have spacefaring ships and are traveling the universe in them.

GREG - You wrote: [TREASURE PLANET. To be fair, as I understand it (from a distance), the movie is a fairly faithful Sci-Fi adaptation of Stevenson's Treasure Island. So Harlock aside, it's not surprising that it's got space-pirates and space-schooners or whatever. I mean how else would you have them handle the material?]

Now that I've seen the trailer for it I see that its not even that close to Harlock (other than a space setting and the spacefaring ship). I'm just a Harlock fan and while I don't mind homage, I would prefer if Disney didn't try to come up with its own independent take on that epic which would just amount to Harlock with a rename and redesign. That was the first thing I thought they might be doing when this movie was mentioned. Now that I have some more info, I can put that thought aside. I am actually a little curious to see it; the trailer looks very good. But I think I'd rather devote my movie going anticipation to STAR TREK NEMESIS and THE TWIN TOWERS. (I saw the trailers for those two last week when I went to see MEN IN BLACK 2. THE TWIN TOWERS looks magnificent and ST:NEMESIS looks like its going to be as good as FIRST CONTACT was. Anyone know who directed NEMESIS?)

You wrote: [I have to agree that it's premature to do much in the way of PUSHING it. Great to start getting everyone excited. But we need at least a more precise release date than 'sometime in 2003' before we should really launch a fandom campaign.]

I agree. Although it can't hurt to plan ahead and figure out some specifics of what we might do when we actually do have more information. There's nothing worse than getting started on a campaign at the last minute.

You wrote: [As for content, we need to give the folks at Disney a little time. They only just decided to do a DVD two weeks ago.]

I'm not in a rush. A little excited though. Especially when you consider how good Disney DVD releases tend to be. (I love how they have been putting out two editions of their releases - a regular release with the feature and some extras and a collectors release with the regular release and another DVD with even more extra goodies on it. DINOSAUR, ATLANTIS, and TARZAN are excellent examples.)

JIMMY - You wrote: [The most likely outcome would be to release "The Heroes Awaken" just sort of switch it over from the VHS version to DVD.]

I was inclinded to lean towards that happening too until Greg mentioned that they want him to be involved. If they were just going to do a VHS to DVD dump then they probably wouldn't have gone through the trouble to ask him for anything.

You wrote: [I sincerely hope it doesn't happen, but thinking from the perspective of a Disney exec, that would give them the least effort with the most payoff.]

A VHS to DVD would probably be the way of least effort and might appeal to an executive. But for the extremely little we know I get the impression that they are heading in a direction completely different than that. That they want to put out a quality product to test the waters.

POWER RANGERS is gone now and the shows that Disney has to compete with are different. They might want to see if audience is still there and if they'd want GARGOYLES. (Not to mention they know about an organized fanbase and might want to make some money from it - they are a business after all and if GARGOYLES complete on DVD makes money, its more than its doing just sitting in a vault.)

Besides all that Disney tends to put out good product on DVD (at least in terms of its movies - I don't think that they've released any of their series on DVD) and I don't think that they would want to drop quality here just because its a TV series rather than a movie. This is a business trying to make money. Nothing worse than putting out a shoddy product and losing money on it when all you had to do is put a little effort, put out something better, and make more money from it.

You wrote: [I see no reason why darkages shouldn't work.]

It's not that the series itself wouldn't work. I just don't think that any prequel can be a long lasting series. A short highly centralized run can work. A movie (or series of movies) can work. But a prequel that's running as an open ended series is going to run into problems.

You wrote: [It could avoid the prequilitis since there would be so many more characters to work with.]

We would get other characters of course. And they would be interesting despite being dead men walking from the very beginning of the series. But the main cast is Hudson and the rest of the cast we know from the main series. So prequelitis is unavoidable unless it has a highly specific and tightly plotted arc which essentially turns it into a mini-series.

You wrote: [But there would be a whole bunch of other characters to work with to keep it from getting stale.]

I'm not saying that it would get stale. Seeing Hudson as leader would be interesting. Having Goliath and Demona as the main romantic plot thread was be entertaining. Seeing the Trio as kids would be fun. But in the end we know where are this is going to go. Hudson retires. Goliath and Demona end up enemies. The Trio become who they are. Everyone else dies. My main argument isn't with the story which I think can be interesting. It's not with the setting which I think can hold an audience. Its that I don't think any prequel can be open ended and long lasting. And if it isn't open ended, then its essentially just a mini-series.

You wrote: [A comic book revival would be cool, but I don't know about going on forever.]

I don't really mean forever. But a good 100-200 issue run wouldn't be so bad. (With a few Annuals, Mini-series and Specials thrown in of course. And maybe some spin-off series too.) And while comics based on TV shows don't have that long of a life it really depends on if its making money for the publisher. TV show or not if its profitable the comic company that has the rights to put out the comic is still going to do it.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:55:21 PM

DVD> The most likely outcome would be to release "The Heroes Awaken" just sort of switch it over from the VHS version to DVD. I sincerely hope it doesn't happen, but thinking from the perspective of a Disney exec, that would give them the least effort with the most payoff.

I hear GI-Joe is being given a test run on Toonami. Cartoon Network is rumored to be discussing reviving the series. ('Tis the season to renew old cartoons La La La La La La La LA LA.)

I don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but I was playing Warcraft III today and got a new undead unit. It was a Gargoyle. And it has a special ability where it can turn to stone and regenerate. It's a very cool unit and an interesting tie-in. The Archmage unit also looks a whole lot like the Achmage in Gargoyles as well.

Airwalker> I see no reason why darkages shouldn't work. It could avoid the prequilitis since there would be so many more characters to work with. Hudson would be leader so we would see a different side of him. We would watch the trio grow up and the budding romance between Goliath and Demona. But there would be a whole bunch of other characters to work with to keep it from getting stale. I also don't see why the Midevil (sp?) setting should put kids off. Instead if using cool scientific gadgets, they would just use cool magical spells, which I think would make for much cooler imagery. The only thing you have to worry about with that is another Baptist Boycott. (No offense to Baptists, my best friend's dad is a Baptist preacher.)
A comic book revival would be cool, but I don't know about going on forever. Comic books based on TV shows generally only last a little longer than the show. Usually the comics are used as marketing for the show since the TV will make more money than the Comic book. But the Gargoyles show might go on for a while. Who knows, it may be the longest running Cartoon show since the Simpsons, or it may not. It doesn't really bug me when a show is done. It bugs me when I feel that the show still had more potential or never got a proper level of closure. Gargoyles was snuffed out in its prime. Things were just getting more and more interesting. That's why its cancellation was a travesty.

Wednesday, July 10, 2002 07:29:25 PM

So the next Episode Ramble is to be delayed for a couple more weeks? Pity, but I understand why that has to be.

Actually, I just wondered this. Gorebash mentioned that he might need to temporarily "shut down" "Ask Greg" while doing some remodelling there (such as installing a search feature), and obviously, we can't post our replies to Greg's episode rambles there while it's happening. I wonder if we could put the Episode Rambles on hold, therefore, until Gorebash completes the "Ask Greg" revamp.

TREASURE PLANET: Being far more familiar with Stevenson's book than I am with Captain Harlock, I definitely associate the movie far more with the former. (This isn't the first "update" of "Treasure Island" that I've come across, mind; I remember seeing a "book update" in the library some years ago where it was reset in the 20th century, with Captain Flint's treasure now being some submarine loot left over from the Pacific theatre in World War II, and Squire Trelawney renamed Senator Trelawney).

One note about Demona being called the "Gorlois" in the never-made Team Atlantis episode: after reading Greg's just-posted ramble about the Gathering 2002, I found myself again (like Crzy, I believe) noticing how that name evoked King Arthur's "stepfather" (well, if you can call a man your stepfather when he was married to your mother before she married your father). Then I suddenly realized something else. The Arthurian Gorlois lived in the castle of Tintagel, and Greg Weisman mentioned once that Tintagel was the "real-life model" for Castle Wyvern. Very interesting, even if I doubt that Greg had that in mind at the time.

Kind of a pity that it never got made, but, as I said before, the "Loch Ness monster" story that Greg mentioned at the Gathering 2001 indicates that Disney's S&P people may not be ready for those kinds of series these days.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, July 10, 2002 06:54:31 PM

Gore - One sound mix was for the small screen. One for the big screen. They were done simultaneously by two different groups of people because the two media have very different requirements and because we had very tight deadlines for both our World Premiere (on a couple big screens in a Pleasure Island/DisneyWorld/Orlando/Florida theater) in September '94 and for our episodic television premiere in October '94.

FYI - I've begun posting my Gathering Rambles in ASK GREG. I've done Thursday-Saturday so far. Sunday-Tuesday still to come.
Wednesday, July 10, 2002 05:45:16 PM

Greg: thanks for the extra info. it's especially good to hear that they want you involved in the production of the DVD. now i'm doubly excited at the potential of the Gargoyels DVD.

Wingless: i bow to the wiser mind and vast memory you have. i should not have second-guessed a man who works with audio for a living. :)

So why was the movie remixed then? That's seems like a lot of extra work.

gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Wednesday, July 10, 2002 05:09:23 PM

hello! a short post before writing a couple letters for job.

Jen: I didn't know you were a Leiji Matsumoto fan! I love his stuff! Harlock (78, 84, SAGA), Ginga Tetsudo 999, or the OAV Cockpit. This guy as a way to mix technology and myths, give character depths.
if Treasure Planet is anywhere as good as Harlock is... then I must see that movie!

Denis - [malkavien@lft.be]
Wednesday, July 10, 2002 03:20:59 PM


1. DCV. Okay, when I got back to L.A. I was swamped. I haven't even had time to finish my Gathering Rambles, so obviously I'm not going to get to the DCV this week. And next week I'm out of town again. SORRY! Can you wait another couple weeks?

2. TREASURE PLANET. To be fair, as I understand it (from a distance), the movie is a fairly faithful Sci-Fi adaptation of Stevenson's Treasure Island. So Harlock aside, it's not surprising that it's got space-pirates and space-schooners or whatever. I mean how else would you have them handle the material?

3. DVD. I have to agree that it's premature to do much in the way of PUSHING it. Great to start getting everyone excited. But we need at least a more precise release date than 'sometime in 2003' before we should really launch a fandom campaign. As for content, we need to give the folks at Disney a little time. They only just decided to do a DVD two weeks ago. They've told me that they want me to be involved, which suggests that they intend to do more than just dump the movie version onto a disk. I intend to nudge them into making the DVD something that you all won't be able to live without. Just give me a minute, kay?

4. For the record, the movie version and the episodic version had two entirely different sound mixes. Done at two different places by two different groups of people. Having said that we were both working off the same character voice tracks. One version may have lines that the other doesn't have. But you're unlikely to have two different lines in the same space. On the other hand, it is likely that you might have two very different sound effects in the same space.
Wednesday, July 10, 2002 02:49:27 PM

Crzy Demona: I don't know this "Captain Harlock" of which you speak, but the trailer on the link you provided smacks of something else I can't quite.. what is it.. oooohhh that's right! Titan: AE. "Jim blossoms under John's guidance and shows the makings of a fine spacer as he and the alien crew battle supernovas, black holes, and ferocious space storms...but even greater dangers lie ahead when Jim discovers that his trusted friend Silver is actually a scheeming pirate with mutiny in mind. Confronted with a betrayal that cuts deep into his soul blahblah.." no no, that doesn't sound familliar at all.. and.. its SUPERNOVAE not supernovas, geesh!

Now, mind you I don't think it could be said that Titan: AE had a particularly original plot.. but this Jim looks like a dark-haired Cale to me. I think this "Robert Louis Stevenson" thing makes a pretty darned good cover, though.

While being skeptical, I shall reserve judgement until I have actually SEEN the movie.

Lurking Fish
Wednesday, July 10, 2002 12:37:53 PM

Treasure Planet is a redo of Robert Louis Stevenson's Treasure Island... only this time, the setting is in space. Still... when I see that big ship in space with a pirate flag on it... I can't NOT think of Captain Harlock.

The kid from 3rd Rock from the Sun will do Jim's voice... and Brian Murray is Silver. The graphics look great... but they did for Atlantis as well. :P

Click the link to visit the site and view the trailer.

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson - [<--- Treasure Planet Website]
Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:22:42 AM

TODD - You wrote: [And forgive my ignorance, but who *is* Captain Harlock?]

20-25 year going (they have a new series every few years - one is in production in Japan right now) epic style anime staring a wandering space pirate named Captain Harlock. (The character designs of Leiji Matsumoto are pretty unique and easily identifiable - if you saw the Daft Punk videos on Toonami then you'd immediately recognize the Harlock style.)

Some of the anime has been released in the States for a while AND some very recently. (The prequel to GALAXY EXPRESS 999 was released - it's called Maetel Legend.) And the manga (called GALAXY EXPRESS 999) is being released by VIZ here; 5 volumes of it are already out.

It has a rabid fan following both here and in Japan. I haven't seen that much of the anime but the themes about the nature of humanity and the soul that I glanced through in the manga are extremely interesting. I would recommend it but I'm not sure what to recommend first - there's a lot. (And the order of it isn't exactly clear; Every work Leiji Matsumoto has ever done is all set in the same universe. I'll ask and then get back to you on it although I do strongly recommend the single manga that is being released here.)

I haven't seen this TREASURE PLANET promo or if/how much is ripped, uh... I mean independently created, by Disney. But this isn't something like the LION KING where they'd be able to get away with a rip. If Leiji Matsumoto thinks Harlock's being majorly ripped then he'll take them to court. (I'm a bit suprised that Disney got away with it with ATLANTIS. The studio that did NADIA tends to be overprotective of its work so I'm a little suprised.)

What is the matter with Disney? They used to have some originality to what they did. (Or at the very least they stuck to stuff that hadn't been created in Japan in the last 30 years.) It seems like most of the people there spend time just sitting around watching anime and saying "That's a cool idea! Let's do an identical Disney version!" It feels like the last original thing that they did was GARGOYLES. (I feel like I should throw in something on LILO AND STITCH but I haven't seen it so I can't really comment on it. But if it is completely original then I commend them for it; I do know that the promo's for it were great. I loved the BEAUTY AND THE BEAST one. Did they make an ALADDIN version too?) They don't seem to realize that the anime audience has grown large enough in America that a lot more people can recognize a rip when they see it. And especially with Captain Harlock which has a much hardercore fanbase than NADIA ever did.

And in slightly seperate news let me announce two things that WILDSTORM comics is putting out. First (and I figure everyone has heard about this since it was announced by them a while ago in Diamond Previews) is that a THUNDERCATS comic series that is set to take place from where the TV series left off is in the works and will be out soon.

And now on top of that it seems that WILDSTORM has the rights to do a ROBOTECH comic. A prequel series is already heavily planned out and I imagine that eventually they'll get to a setting in the actual main ROBOTECH/MACROSS continuity.

These together with GI JOE and TRANSFORMERS revivals in comic format really get me thinking that it might be strongly possible to get GARGOYLES comic revival. Most of these revivals can be traced to strong fanbases and recent DVD releases (except I think for THUNDERCATS although I imagine that it'll get a DVD release eventually). I think that the same can be done for GARGOYLES.

And while a GARGOYLES comic does have drawbacks to it (it isn't animated and we lose the chance to hear the wonderful voice work), it does have an upside in that the comic format can go in indefintely. A TV revival which I do wish for will still only be limited and eventually come to an end while comics can go on for years. To be completely honest I'd rather have both revivals. (Hell, I'd like to see some GARGOYLES novels ala ROBOTECH (with some illustrations here and there ala the Marvel Comic Novels thrown in)).

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:22:27 AM

It seems that I am following in Batya's footsteps, although I did really intend to post here anyway. :)

But inspired by news from the Gathering and by a Sunday marathon of Roughnecks, I have returned. A few thoughts:

1. I started to play catch-up on Ask Greg. Greg W. wondered in his ramble about Avalon 1 if I read them when he brough up Morgan and his comic book cousin Jeff Goslin. Greg, I love the rambles and try to keep up with them, but never seem to. And I never thought about the similarities between Morgan and Gos, if only because Gos played a much bigger role in Capt. Atom life than Morgan got a chance to in Elisa's life. But I do see the similarities.

2. As noted, I'm now caught up on Roughnecks, which coul also be called the Gargoyles writers reunion. When a friend told me how the show was supposed end, I said "OK, Greg HAD to be the story editor for that. Who else would use Dante's Inferno as an inspiration?" I'm left hoping that the success of Roughnecks DVD sales will convince Sony to make the last episodes, but I doubt it. Still, if you haven't seen this series yet, do so. It's not quite Gargoyles in its writing quality, and it can be very depressing, but it boasts great CGI and great voicework. Kind of wish I'd seen this show before G2001, though, so I could have appreciated the Roughnecks panels.

3. I am quite enthused about the Gargoyles DVD news. I wonder what extras they'll throw in. I also wonder what else Disney is thinking about releasing once we make this DVD a hit. A TaleSpin or Darkwing Duck DVD would be almost as nice.

4. As part of catching up, I was reading the FAQ, and found that yesterday was Alex Xanatos' sixth birthday. Boy, time flies.

That's all for now.

Alex aka Simon
Alex Wittenberg - [sdelmonte@aol.com]
Flushing, NY, USA
Wednesday, July 10, 2002 09:42:04 AM

Gorebash -- just like Derek Jeter in said Gatorade commercial, you hit that one on the screws. I just saw that spot again, listened closely, and sure enough. It's him, all right. Wouldn't you love to hear the outtakes and behind-the-scenes comments from that one?
Ellen - [efstolfa@aol.com]
Wednesday, July 10, 2002 12:44:04 AM

Todd> Re: Harlock. Ever heard of "Star Blazers?(Space Cruiser Yamato)" Harlock's a space pirate in that universe, with his own TV series, movies and loyal fan following. Harlock's ship, Arcadia, sure looks like a lot like the ships flying around in Treasure Planet. Creation of mastermind Leiji Matsumoto.
Roy Sato
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 10:48:51 PM

AIRWALKER - <<Usually the shows tend to turn out to be bumbling horned Vikings fighting endless bloodless battles with some Knight who doesn't want anything except to be heroic and has some static relationship with some helpless princess.>>

Well, at least we know that that wouldn't fit the description of the Vikings in the Gargoyles Universe, given how Hakon and his followers were done in "Awakening". (One of the very first features of "Gargoyles" that caused me to really respect the show, doing Viking costume correctly - but I've mentioned that a few times before).

And forgive my ignorance, but who *is* Captain Harlock?

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 10:28:10 PM

Keith David Returns to Gargoyles?!

Was it just me or was that Keith David doing the voice-over for the Gatorade commercial, which featured stone gargoyles playing baseball, during the All-Star game?

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 09:31:52 PM

WINGLESS - You wrote: [If they are just going to do the 5 awakenings eps on the first DVD, then they'd have room for the movie too.]

Essentially the episodes and movie version of AWAKENINGS are the same story and I doubt that Disney would waste the space on the DVD to give two versions of the same story. I imagine that they are either going to give us the movie version or the episode version. Besides the extra space on the DVD would probably be better used for extras or they'll give the extra bits to the actual program for better video quality.

And given that choice I'd rather get the episodes because while the movie version may have had remixed audio it also had tons of video edited out. I'd rather have all the full unedited versions. Plus like I said in my last post I think going with episodes rather than an edited together movie version would flow better into the rest of the series that they'll hopefully continue to release after this DVD.

You wrote: [BTW, another odd difference was the movie version that aired on UPN-the whole battle scene with the vikings was completely backwards]

I remember that. At first I was sort of wondering "What the Hell is going on? Was it always this way and I'm just misremembering it?" But they only did that the first time it was on if I'm recalling correctly. I seem to recall seeing a UPN edit version without it being backwards in some scenes. Or am I misremembering it? :-)

You wrote: [Disney's gonna do what it wants, no matter what we tell 'em. I just hope they put the love & care into the package that others have when re releasing shows on DVD]

True. I'm just hoping that this isn't a dumped from tape to DVD release and that they put some effort into it. If they can put out all those dual disc special edition (Dinosaur, Atlantis, Tarzan) of their movies then they can work wonders with GARGOYLES. And if they put effort into the first DVD (but still keep it reasonably priced) then not only will we be rewarded with a quality product but they will be rewarded with much more future business. (And maybe multiple same buyer business on this product. I'll probably pick up at least two copies and thats just hearing that its GARGOYLES on DVD. Imagine how many I'll be getting when I actually hear whats going to be on it! :-) )

CRZYDEMONA - You wrote: [Have you seen the Previews for "Treasure Planet"? Big galleons in space... COUGHCOUGH Captain Harlock COUGHCOUGH]

I hadn't seen it yet. They're going after Harlock too!? Unbelievable. Other than GARGOYLES (and maybe LILO AND STITCH which I haven't seen so I can't judge) don't they have any more original ideas? Or at least do they have to be so obvious about it? I mean Anime isn't just a marginal thing here like it was ten or fifteen years ago. People are going to recognize series. I'm shocked that ATLANTIS got made at all especially considering that you could pick up Nadia in any Suncoast.

You wrote: [They only put two episodes each on the VHS. Not sure how they could possibly break up Awakenings onto two different DVDs...]

Standard episode count on a DVD is usually 3-4 episodes. You can put 5 episodes and extras on a DVD-5 without any problems so AWAKENINGS can go all on one DVD. I don't think that they would use the same episode number release for DVD that they used for VHS. Its been a few years and that format is gone. Even VIZ puts at least 3 episodes on a disc.

GORE - You wrote: [It will be interesting to see how many episodes Disney puts on the first DVD.]

I really think that they are going to go with the 5 episodes of AWAKENINGS (in some form - episodes or movie) for this first DVD. If they only have plans for one DVD now then odds are that they want to have a complete story in case this remains the only GARGOYLES DVD that they release. The only real questions here are:

What version of AWAKENINGS they are going to use?
Will there be any extras?
If there are then what will they be?
Will there be more GARGOYLES DVDs?

You wrote: [If Disney is kind and were to up the # of episodes-per-dvd to 8 with say one DVD having 9 on it, then we'd get 8 DVDs for the first two seasons. MUCH nicer.]

It could be possible that they might decide to do a Saber Marionette Style DVD release for Season 2. (Saber Marionette J was released in 3 sets each containing 2 DVDs in a 9/8/9 configuration for that 26 episode series.)

I can see a GARGOYLES DVD release like this:

Disc 1 is AWAKENINGS. (It can possibly be in the new Disney standard of releasing two versions of it - a regular version for the general public and a 2 DVD collectors version.) The rest of Season 1 goes out on 2 discs either in one set as a bargain deal or as two seperate DVDs. I figure it like that because without AWAKENINGS we are left with eight episodes which leaves it to a nice 4/4 split. And then Season 2 can come out in SMJ style which would end up being around 7 sets give or take. (I imagine that if its doing well then CITY OF STONE, AVALON, and HUNTERS MOON might become standalone discs.) This is all assuming that Disney likes the numbers it gets on the first DVD and probably eveything in the first season release.

TODD - You wrote: [But I still have my doubts.]

I do think that there is more of a market for Sci-Fi than there is for Medieval settings. But I think that its more a matter of perception than anything else. Medieval settings can be sold although to be honest if I were trying to sell them, especially in animation, I'd probably try Direct to DVD or Cable. Or I'd just do the sane thing and head out to Japan where animation is just another way to tell any kind of story, not just keep the kids amused while you have work to do.

I don't think that it might be so bad for the Middle Ages. It just depends on how its sold and how the audience is going to approach it. Take a look at the recently released anime BERSERK. Its a medieval setting although its nowhere near being let onto TV here due to violence. But it has a rabid fan following. SLAYERS is another medieval set series except its comedy while BERSERK is drama. I could name a few more but it proves to me that the audience is there. People just aren't being given the shows and aren't tuning in because on TV they know that there is going to be a lot of toning down of the raw feeling that people imagine surrounded such a barbaric, violent era. Usually the shows tend to turn out to be bumbling horned Vikings fighting endless bloodless battles with some Knight who doesn't want anything except to be heroic and has some static relationship with some helpless princess. That's nice for a toddler to watch but I would like a little story and a little realism in my stories. And that's why the audience doesn't come.

IRC GOLIATH - You wrote: [I'm pretty sure Gargoyles will be the first Disney animated series being relesed to DVD]

They've released episodes of Disney series before but I don't think that they've ever released an entire complete series in any format. I hope that GARGOYLES is the first series they manage to get out completely (uncut and also IN ORDER).

You wrote: [So there's really no telling how basic or insane they could make it. Here's hoping for at least plastic case instead of a cardboard one]

Other than editing it and/or mixing up the order of the series and/or leaving out episodes I don't think that there is anything that they can do to actually mess up the release of the series.

As for the cardboard box the standard for Disney DVD are keepsake cases. I'm more worried about the type of cover they'll use. It should be serious and majestic. (I described my idea way down in my first post of the week - black background with Goliath in Shadow ala the Gargoyles Pin with GARGOYLES written in fire letters.) If its AWAKENINGS VHS cover all over again then its them trying to dumbing it down and maybe hurting their own sales by losing the casual customer.

BATYA - You wrote: [* Music videos.]

I'd love to see that. They really should get in touch with Bandai - for SMJ they mixed up actual music videos set to the various songs in the series. It would be fun to see a Gargoyles music video.

You wrote: [* Greg's leica reel for "Bad Guys."]

I've got to get to the next Gathering just to see that. I've been dying to see it for years. But let's not jump ahead of ourselves. If they use that here on the first GARGOYLES DVD, what are they going to use on a first DVD in a BAD GUYS series collection ? :-)

Oh, on a side note I got a new e-mail address. The old one's been getting so much junk that it was time for it to be retired.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 09:26:48 PM

Heeeeeey Seth!
"I told you it would come back to NY! Didn't I tell ya? ;)"
Well, yeah, but you also said it would be the Dreamer Clan running it again ... which hasn't gotten any more likely. (Although there is a distinct possibility that we will get involved in some facet of the con or other ... just as long as we don't have to be in charge!)

And hi Todd, Blaise, everybody else ... wow, it's old home week here.

Stuff I'd like to see on the Gargoyles DVD that is highly unlikely:
* Blooper reels of dialogue recording. Or outtakes in the style of "Toy Story."
* Music videos.
* Greg's leica reel for "Bad Guys."

Anyone else got any wishes too unlikely to even be forlorn hopes?

Batya "The Toon" Wittenberg - [batyatoon@hotmail.com]
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 08:13:12 PM

Gorebash: heh, think it's time to "Ask Greg" himself. I'm pretty sure I remember he did the audio work for the movie, and that it was entirely redun for the 5 epsiodes. I think if you watch the movie and episodes back to back you'll notice alot of audio and dialoge differences(I seem to recall another one where Broadway rips open the roof door to the cyberbiotics building-in the show he says "No Problem" but i think he says something different in the movie.) Many of the sound effects are different as well throughout. Even the sond effects of brooklyn's glasses breaking at the end is drastically different.
*points to his ears* I may have very bad eyes-but me has one great set of ears to pick up this sorta thing. They dont call me Mr. Stereo in my "other life" for nothin. ^_~

Tuesday, July 9, 2002 08:05:14 PM

Gargoyles DVD> Personally, I'd be impressed if the big D included footage of Disney Japan they took oh so long ago. Interviews with voice actors and producers are the norm, but nothing gets me more excited than seeing the actual production artists at work. If they need updated production staff interviews, Disney Japan is still alive and well with most of the original Garg staff there. There is no excuse, really, unless they want to hide the fact foreigners worked on the series.
Roy Sato
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 07:25:58 PM

HI JEN ^_^ *hugs* how are you? :) I missed you at The Gathering :( Drop me an e-mail you crazy thing!

Gore> You're right about the 5.1, what was I thinking? THX!!! ANAMORPHIC WIDESCREEN!!!! *foams at the mouth* err... ahem... seriously though, Disney seems to be more into featurettes on their DVDs (generally speaking) so it would be more likely to see the Interview mixed in with other material from the voice actors/writers/etc (kinna like what was at the beginning of VHS movie) ... then again, there's nothing to compare it to because I'm pretty sure Gargoyles will be the first Disney animated series being relesed to DVD (unless something comes out before Gargoyles) so there's really no telling how basic or insane they could make it. Here's hoping for at least plastic case instead of a cardboard one :D

IRC Goliath - [irc_goliath@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 06:55:19 PM

AIRWALKER - Well, you may be right about the medieval setting not necessarily being an automatic turn-off. I certainly hope that you are, since I'd like to see more of that sort of thing. But I still have my doubts.

I especially recall a specific comment that Greg Weisman made, when he explained why they had the "Next Time on" segments for "Awakening". He said that they particularly chose it for the end of Part One so as to make certain that the audience would understand that the medieval flashback was just the start of the story, and not the exclusive setting for "Gargoyles", out of concerns that if they thought that the entire series would be set in medieval times, they wouldn't find it as appealing.

But I'd definitely like to see more adventure series (whether animated or otherwise) in medieval settings, even if it was something entirely new rather than "Dark Ages".

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 06:41:19 PM

IRC Goliath: 5.1 audio? I doubt you'd see that. It would require a complete remastering of the audio track. How many people have a 5.1 stereo system at home? Is the remastering cost worth the few extra people you entice?

And aren't you forgetting an uncut version of the Interview that Disney did with Greg? We see bits and pieces of it on the Heros Awaken VHS. I'd like to see the whole thing on the DVD.

Commentary tracks would be damn sweet. Does Disney do commentary tracks?

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 05:46:22 PM

Gargoyles DVD: The Gargoyles Movie (aka Heros Awaken) was just an edit of the 5-part Awakenings with a few lines cut out (Xanatos' reference of walking out of Hell being one). So in a sense the audio might have been remixed, but only for a few scenes. I don't think it is a 100% different audio track. I doubt both the 5-part Awakenings and The Heros Awaken would be on the DVD.

It will be interesting to see how many episodes Disney puts on the first DVD. If it is merely the 5 episodes of Awakenings look out, we're in for 13 or 14 DVDs to cover just the first two seasons. That's mui expensive.

However, if Disney is kind and were to up the # of episodes-per-dvd to 8 with say one DVD having 9 on it, then we'd get 8 DVDs for the first two seasons. MUCH nicer. And it still leaves room for the DVD encoding to be at a decent bit rate. Anything more than 12 episodes-per-dvd and I think you run into a lower bit rate on the video streams and thus poorer quality.

Blah. I'll back away from the keyboard now.

Gargoyles - [gorebash@s8.org]
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 05:43:07 PM

Gargoyles DVD> What I'd love to see that isn't too unreasonable :)

• Awakening's 1 - 5 all seperate with full intro, credits, previously on, and next time on for all 5 episodes with an optional "Play all" that plays them back to back w/o the Intro/Credits/Previously/Next
• Uncut (Xanatos "Hell" Elisa "Damn" Broaday Kitchen scene, etc, etc.)
• Stereo original broadcast audio
• Stereo "enhanced" audio (assuming they port it straight from the movie and fill in the few gaps and the only reason I suggested 5.1 before was because I thought the VHS movie was at least 4.0, but it turns out it's stereo)
• English cpations taken FROM the script (so we can get the Latin right ;D)
• Commentary from Greg (at least)
• Bumpers (commerical intros/outros)
• Trailers (Namely the one that was on the Nightmare before Christmas VHS)
• Full-screen format

IRC Goliath - [irc_goliath@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 05:35:47 PM

AIRWALKER: First, welcome back! :) Next,

<< I didn't see it in the theatres (I waited for it to come out on DVD) but you know, it wasn't THAT bad. But I did like it better the first time around when it was called Nadia The Secret of Blue Water.>>

Have you seen the Previews for "Treasure Planet"? Big galleons in space... COUGHCOUGH Captain Harlock COUGHCOUGH

TODD: HEY! So I wasn't dreaming! GO ME!

THE DVD: They only put two episodes each on the VHS. Not sure how they could possibly break up Awakenings onto two different DVDs... that wouldnt make sense (maybe put both versions of it on the same DVD too). Perhaps they will put 4 eps each on the other DVDs... I dunno... I hope we find out more soon! :) WHEE!!

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 05:25:49 PM

Just wanted to say "Hi" to everyone I ran into at the Gathering. Not a lot to say at the moment, but I'll take a stab at the meat question:

A Fan described an interesting method of cattle raising and killing when giving an impromptu lecture on kosher meat in the Con Suite this year. I do have to say I like the idea of range-raising hormone-free beef and then killing them quickly and painlessly by slicing a nerve.

I don't like to see other animals suffer. My response sort of breeds either contempt or compassion for the suffering of other creatures that easily transfers itself into the way I treat people. Admittedly, I don't put any intrinsic value on animals that is comparable to the value I attribute to humans, but even Kant would admit that encouraging and condoning unnecessary cruelty to animals indirectly hurts humans and society, and is hence unethical.

I shy away even more so from killing pets, because it breeds contempt for the emotional bonds we form that also translates to other humans in time.

I'm good with eating meat, but I think we should treat our animals with the proper amount of respect.

Tuesday, July 9, 2002 03:45:18 PM

Airwalker & IRC Goliath: Re Gargs DVD: The reason I suggest that both Awakenings(5 eps) AND the movie(The Heroes Awaken) be on the DVD is that the audio is a completely different mix. If I recall the story correctly, Greg W himself mixed the audio for the movie-thus there are actually different sound effects(check out Goliath Dropping the Magus onto the Grimorum in both and you'll see), not to mention their being bits of dialogue in the movie that Are NOT in the 5 TV eps. As mentioned Hudson's "any port in a storm" line in the subway, Golaith's "God speed lads" as the trio heads off to the cyberbiotics tower and in the airship when the person Goliath is holding by the collar says "wh wh what are you", in the movie goliath answers "Your Worst Nightmare!"(in the same scene, you also hear big differences when demona is trying to pull goliath out of the airship. Even the gunshots are a different sound as I recall. If they are just going to do the 5 awakenings eps on the first DVD, then they'd have room for the movie too.
BTW, another odd difference was the movie version that aired on UPN-the whole battle scene with the vikings was completely backwards(IE everything in the scene was flipped right to left). Plus the infamous Elisa saying "Damn" when she runs out of bullets(I still have to find the original tape of that to double check that again).
Anyway, I'se just stating my thoughts. Disney's gonna do what it wants, no matter what we tell 'em. I just hope they put the love & care into the package that others have when re releasing shows on DVD(if any of you have seen the M*A*S*H first season on DVD, you know what I mean.

Wingless - [canclan@rogers.com]
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 03:33:16 PM

Thanks for the friendly Welcome Back everyone!

WINGLESS - You wrote: [I personally would like to see both the 5 awakenings eps AND the movie.]

I'd rather see just the individual episodes rather than the movie. Mainly because I'm not fond of the editing in the movie (by which I mean I'm not fond of all the footage that was missing, not the actual way that they put everything together once they took the footage out).

Also I think that if this DVD is going to be hopefully the first of the release of the entire series (or at least the first two seasons - I have mixed feeling on seeing any of the episodes past THE JOURNEY make it to DVD; I wouldn't mind it but I'd hate for that to mean that they would have to be counted in any revived series continuity) then it should be in episode format to fit well together with the rest of the series which is completely in episode format.

I think that it would be a more organic release to start with the first few episodes and then move into more episodes rather than start with a movie which is just the first five episodes edited together and then jump into discs and discs of just episodes.

You wrote: [Either that, or lets have the first season-uncut on DVD.]

I have a feeling that if the first disc does moderately well we'll get the rest of the first season on DVD. Most companies are shifting their back catalogues to DVD and the first season is a part of that catalogue. So we probably will get AWAKENINGS on the first DVD and then the rest of the first season split onto two DVDs (4 episodes per disc). The question is if they'll go into the second season which they've never released on any format. (And if they'll get any funny ideas about maybe doing some editing to those episodes; or maybe just releasing the Toon Disney versions.)

BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [Hey! It's about damn time. *hugs* Welcome back. Have some cookies.]

*Hugs back* Thanks for the welcome. I did figure it was sort of damn time to make a comeback. Thanks for the cookies. *Starts swallowing plate after plate of cookies* :-)

TODD - You wrote: [Wow, welcome back, Airwalker! That was quite a pleasant surprise, seeing you back here; I was beginning to fear that you'd left for good.]

Thanks! I wasn't really planning to be gone for as long as I was. It just worked out that way. Well, now I'm back! "The Two Kings" can begin endless debate again :-)

You wrote: [Some interesting comments of yours, too, about bringing "Gargoyles" back. I'll have to post more about them tonight, but one little comment:]

Looking forward to it; I actually didn't really mean to type so much. It just happened that once I got to typing it started flowing and wouldn't stop :-)

You wrote: [You mentioned that "Dark Ages" would face the problem of "prequelitis" (i.e., we all know how the story ends in 994 already). Actually, I think that the other big problem it might face would be the 10th century setting;]

I didn't feel that was such a difficulty actually. There is an audience for fantasy and there have been several popular shows set in medieval settings. There aren't any now (that come to mind at least) but that doesn't mean that it would put the nail in any show that would be set in that time.

The main problem with DARK AGES which I mentioned in my last post is that it is a prequel so we know where everyone is heading. Its not that it wouldn't be interesting; I think that seeing a Hudson led clan with a Goliath and Demona's relationship being the major romantic sub-plot of the series instead of Goliath and Elisa would be extremely entertaining. It's just that since you know where that's going you can't really get into it emotionally; and any new characters you bring in are dead men walking from day one.

And on top of that there is the problem of confusing some of the audience between this prequel and the main series. We, as fans, know the ins and outs of the series. But someone who has only watched GARGOYLES casually is going to turn it on and wonder what's going on; why is eveyone being refered to by different names for example? Why's the castle in the middle of nowhere? Why can medieval humans live with Gargoyles (if not friendly then not violently) but modern humans can't? (That question gets even worse if TGC is all that they might have seen.)

If this series is limited by nature (such as being a flashback movie or a mini-series) then you can have some framing sequence to help answer that or at the very least it won't matter so much because you can get down to the point. But it gets more difficult if its a more expanded series rather than just one story to be told.

Maybe if it were a different cast and the Gargoyles of our main series were only background characters then you can have similier dynamic as G2198 - new cast with a few carryovers who are so different that they can be played as almost completely new characters. But this is a direct prequel with the main GARGOYLES series cast being the cast more or less of this series too.

Maybe I'm just overanalyzing it. I do believe that the story would be good, interesting, and entertaining. I just have a hard time thinking that any prequel will sustain itself for a long period on television. Not a short period but a long period. If it were on paper format though, its a completely different story.

You wrote: [Oh, and sorry about the double post, but it's "Kingdom" that we should be doing this week, not "Monsters".]

I'll try to watch this episode a little later and post something about it.

BLAISE - You wrote: [Welcome back!! [places a welcome wreath around Airwalker's neck] ]

Thanks! *Humbly accepts wreath and then proceed to humiliate myself by breaking out into badly done disco dancing* :-)

IRC GOLIATH - You wrote: [one of the solutions to the problem could be to include a stereo "original broadcast" audio option (cause I'm pretty sure Gargoyles was stereo where available, not surround sound where available but I could be wrong) and a 5.1 "enhanced audio".]

If they were going to release the individual episodes then while I would love to have it, I couldn't see them releasing an enhanced audio set. They would have to go back and actually create it for the individual episodes. If this DVD is an attempt by them to check how much of an audience they actually have then they're aren't going to spend THAT much money on its production. After all they have to be thinking "What if we spend all this money on it and we can't make it back?" I think that we're either going to get a dumped from tape release of the GARGOYLES movie or we're going to get the actual episodes. But I can't see them putting tons of money to remix/redo/enhance audio. And the only way I can see a french/spanish dub is if it already exists. (Is there one by the way?)

You wrote: [So the next question is, now what can we do?]

Other than trying to spread the word I don't know what else we can do. Except each picking up something like 3-5 copies of the DVD per person (in each fan family :-) )when it actually comes out.

Actually a good idea might be to look up the anime/sci-fi clubs at the various colleges across America and letting them know about it and to give showings of the show. Help spread the audience. When I was still in college the anime club I belongs to was crazy about GARGOYLES. But they had no information whatsoever on anything. This is the market we're looking for. It also wouldn't hurt to mention it at the various Star Trek clubs/societies. And maybe at the fanclubs of the various voice actors. If we get the word out then we can if not revive the show then at least get it completely released in a format that can last practically forever.

You wrote: [Part of the problem is we don't know what Disney's marketing campaign will be on it. A TV spot on Disney and the morning cartoon blocks would be nice.]

Don't count on Disney. That should be rule number one. They might do a few ads (which I hope someone will capture and post somewhere - I'd love to get my hands on Quicktime versions of the commercials during the original run) but they might not do much if anything at all. (I hope I'm wrong and that they do try to push it. But I'll err on the side of caution and say they probably won't do much.)

If we want to prove that we really have a fandom and an audience we have to do it ourselves. And we can only do that by being really loud and getting the word out ourselves. (And we don't have that much of a problem; given the amount of Trek voice talent that GARGOYLES had we could easily get a large amount of that particular fandom to help us in terms of numbers. Its just about getting the word out.)

You wrote: [too bad we JUST missed Anime EXPO anybody know when San Diego Comicon is?]

I don't know for sure except that it is coming up soon. I do know that the Big Apple Anime Fest and AXNY are going to happen August 30 - September 2. We could try there. (And also anywhere where the various voice actors attend. Hell, geting them to speak positively about it to an audience at a non-GARGOYLES convention (and maybe push it a bit) can do a lot to help us along.

Of course this would be much clearer a thing to do if we had more information. All we know is that a GARGOYLES DVD is going to be released in 2003. If we know more about what its going to be then it might help a bit. Did Greg mention if he knew if the DVD release is going to be the movie or the episode version of AWAKENINGS?

CRZYDEMONA - You wrote: [If you recall in the movie Atlantis (if you admit to actually paying money to watch it)]

I didn't see it in the theatres (I waited for it to come out on DVD) but you know, it wasn't THAT bad. But I did like it better the first time around when it was called Nadia The Secret of Blue Water.

As for Team Atlantis, from what I read in the AskGreg archive it might have turned out pretty well if it hadn't been cancelled. I'm sorry we didn't get a chance to see it. It sounds like it would have been very interesting and completely original which is more than I can say for the movie that it would have been spinning out of. I think I will pick up the direct to DVD version that the first few episodes will become. Can anyone give a little more information of the series seeing as I'm not up to date on all the little details due to my absence.

Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 02:36:05 PM

Does anybody have Gorebash's e-mail address? I lost my archived e-mail in the course of rebooting my computer, and need to contact him (since among the things that I lost was the password for clearing "Ask Greg" questions).

CRZY - Yep, Gorlois was King Arthur's stepfather, the first husband of his mother Igraine, and the Duke of Cornwall; he was the biological father of Morgause (who married King Lot of Lothian and Orkney and was the mother of Gawain, Agravain, Gaheris, Gareth, and Mordred), and in Malory (but not in Greg's MasterPlan), also the biological father of Morgan le Fay (though in the MasterPlan, she was a changeling and Gorlois's real daughter was Nimue).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 01:45:00 PM

Seth - Hey babe, welcome back to the world of Gargoyles. :)

Your idea sounds great... the only thing you are missing is INFO! Comic con is the first weekend of August... but what do you plan to put on a flyer at this point in time?? "Gargoyles! Coming to DVD... um... eventually?".

You will end up with a lot of questions and NO answers. Sure, the rest of us are posting what little information we have around the web, it's sparked a lot of new interest on several of the boards I frequent. I think flyers and taking it all a step further will be a fantastic way to spread the word... once we have more word to be spread. Keep the buzz going on the message boards... but the serious pimping is going to have to wait until we have more info about it.

I would like to see a panel at Comic con (and other cons, like Fanime and LosCon) next year about the DVD release. Um... in fact... I think I might start working on that. O.O

Vashkoda - The Atlanteans called Gargoyles, "Gorlois" (make Siryn say it 3 times fast!!) If you recall in the movie Atlantis (if you admit to actually paying money to watch it)... they make it clear that the Atlantean language is a language conglomerate. Milo is able to quickly decipher it because it's like a lot of languages rolled up into one... and one of the most prodominant of those languages was clearly French.

... Wasn't Gorlois married to King Arthur's mother at some point?? Maybe it was a dream. ::leaves the Arthur stuff up to Todd::

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 01:08:30 PM

geeeez, now i'm feeling old! Alex X is 6 today!?! wow...

i wonder if Greg is gonna ramble this week on "Kingdom" i hope so!

Tuesday, July 9, 2002 01:04:49 PM

Gabe> Yea, I'm aware of what the quote means, but how often do people honestly read and understand everything the Bible says before twisting it around and trying to interpret it their own way.
Bud> I usually eat meat less than once a week. I really can't understand how some people can eat it everyday. Don't they get tired of it? Eating meat usually makes you lethargic and stuff. Once a week is good enough for the protein, but more than that is ludicrous.

Tuesday, July 9, 2002 01:01:52 PM

And now, on a more positive note:
HI BATYA!!!!!! *pounce!!!* ^_^ Welcome back! :D *throws some confetti in the air* I told you it would come back to NY! Didn't I tell ya? ;)

HI VASH!!!!!! *hugs* Did you get to go to Anime EXPO? Are you gonna be in town this weekend? If you are, e-mail me :)Say hi to Sean when you see him next ^_^

IRC Goliath - [goliath1@pacbell.net]
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 12:28:24 PM

Gargoyles on DVD> Now, even though a great deal of this post will sound negative, please don't get me wrong. I am very, very, very, VERY excited about Gargoyles coming out on DVD *throws more verys in there for good measure* So the next question is, now what can we do?
Ladies and Gentlemen, we've come to the next step! Gargoyles is coming out on DVD (hey, isn't that the 3rd sign of the apocalypse or something?) but the problem is, it's only ONE DVD (or at least one... for the sake of argument we'll assume one) so how do we sell it? In about a year's time we will be given the opportunity to grab Disney by the ear and say "Hey! This show is a damned good thing!" but how?
Part of the problem is we don't know what Disney's marketing campaign will be on it. A TV spot on Disney and the morning cartoon blocks would be nice. A TV spot on the Toonami cartoon block would be VERY nice. But then the bigger question is how do we get the attention of the older audiences (like ourselves) that have a deeper appreciation for the show than the kid, tweens (I hate that term), and teens market? But then beyond Disney's attempts is there anything we can do? I suppose the least we could do right now is find message boards, newsgroups, yahoo groups, etc. dedicated to cartoons and anime and get the word out that it will be coming to DVD. Passing out flyers or word of mouth information at star trek, comic, and other such conventions would be a good idea as well (too bad we JUST missed Anime EXPO anybody know when San Diego Comicon is?). If you are thinking of helping to spread the word, be truthful... the truth is we don't know anything. Gargoyles... DVD... 2003... and that's about it. We don't know how many (at least one), we don't know when, we don't know where, why or how... so it will also be up to us to follow up with more information as it becomes available (and I'm sure Greg will tell us what he can when he can). Anyway, the point of this whole thing is, I'm hoping to spark up some ideas and conversation on what we can do to help the war efforts (figuratively speaking :D)

IRC Goliath - [goliath1@pacbell.net]
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 12:26:51 PM

Wingless: You had mentioned the idea of them releasing both Awakenings 1-5 as well as Gargoyles the movie because of the enhanced audio. I had been thinking about this for quite some time and I think I have a solution.

For those of you that don't know what we're talking about, Gargoyles The Movie: Heroes Awaken had a few enhancements (despite its major scene deletions) one of the most significant (and easiest to spot) are the audio enhancements. An easy place to spot them (because it stands out the most) is the final confrontation between Goliath and Demona. As Demona walks across the rampart towards Goliath (bazooka in hand) there's a point where were down on the ground from Xanatos, Hudson, and The Trio's perspective listening to the Demona recount the tale of the Viking massacre on Castle Wyvern. If you listen carefully during that sequence you'll hear Demona's voice echoing off the castle walls! This echo effect was not in the original broadcast and there are other such audio enhancements through out the rest of the video.

Getting back to the subject, one of the common things studios do with DVDs is release multiple audio tracks that can be selected from in the menus. Most movies will include at least a stereo and some kind of enhanced DD or DTS 5.1, giving the viewer the option depending on how complex (or not) their audio set up is. Another thing you will commonly see on DVDs (at least region 1) is a French track which is put on there to please the French speaking people of Quebec (no offense intended to anybody from Quebec that might be reading this, I'm simply stating the truth). Getting back to Gargoyles one of the solutions to the problem could be to include a stereo "original broadcast" audio option (cause I'm pretty sure Gargoyles was stereo where available, not surround sound where available but I could be wrong) and a 5.1 "enhanced audio".

IRC Goliath - [goliath1@pacbell.net]
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 12:26:24 PM

If I'm not mistaken, I believe today is Alexander Xanatos's 6th birthday, so happy birthday Alex!
(The only reason I remember this is that it's my birthday today, too.) <:)
Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 12:18:18 PM

"The etimology of the word gargoyle goes back a long way. It evolved at least in part from an Atlantean word." [-Greg, Ask Greg]. Was anything about this explained at the con? Was Atlantis the first place humans interacted with gargoyles and were thus forced to come up with a name for them? I thought the word had French origins. Kinda ironic then that this Team Atlantis ep takes place in Paris, but I don't see the connection with the name.

*waves to IRC Goliath*

Tuesday, July 9, 2002 12:15:40 PM

Actually, Rainforests are more likely cleared for human habitation, than for cattle. And the cattle that go there are to feed indigent populations, not to go to Big Macs. Big Mac meat is usually farmed in the heartland of the US, not rain forests of any kind.

People don't eat too much meat. AMERICANS eat too much meat. That's mainly because here meat is so wonderfully plentiful. In Europe and other countries, meat is a lot more scarce. Here however we have tons of grazing land, and thus a lot of yummy meat.

I don't want my meat "euthanized", simply for the fact I don't fancy my dinner being full of additional poison. Thanks anyway. I do prefer the old fashioned method of cutting an animals throat.

I respect my dinner. It feeds me, and I'm thankful that it feeds me. I respect a beautiful ripe tomato as much as I do a lovely tender red meat pattie. But I am not one to stand on saying grace constantly through the day.

Americans, at least a quarter of them if not more. Eat too much of everything, not just meat. Ours is a weathy country in foodstuffs, and it shows in our great percentage of fat people. We started the "All You Can Eat" fad that is now spreading to other countries, now troubling them with obesity too.

What's kind of strange is that so many of us can be rail thin and eat like no tomorrow... up until we turn thirty. Turn thirty and BOOM, everything goes to fat.

I'm working on trimming my own weight down. It's a real chore. In my twenties I never had to worry. Now, it's a constant battle. My problem isn't meat though. It's cheese and other creamy dairy products. sigh... I love cream. >^,,^<

okay, somehow maneuvering the conversation back to Gargoyles. Their needing the equivalent of three cows a day (each) to maintain their energy level, and that being able to be matched by some kind of "solar" absorption always bothered me. I don't think you could get three cows worth of power with passive solar absorption. I would imagine that Gargoyles would be hungry all the time, because three cows from a days sleep just doesn't add up.

Wouldn't absorbing solar energy instead of just eating food make Gargoyles plant life?

"Just water, and make sure they get plenty of sun."


Tuesday, July 9, 2002 10:43:18 AM

Blaise> "I think in elementary school we learned that some Native Americans would actually apologize to any animal they killed and thank it for its meat, and I always liked that"
*L* I do that. I've had my current watch for probably four or five years now, and I _still_ occassionally apologise to the watchband.

"I'd also be happier if conditions in the meat factories were improved"
I wish they'd just euthanize the animals, the way they do pets. It can't possibly cost _that_ much more. (Of course, given the way most people feel about animals, they'd consider even a slight increase in cost a waste of money.)

Although, even if factory conditions were improved, there's still a huge problem with the amount of meat that most people eat. As someone mentioned, cattle eat an atrocious amount of food. Rainforests are leveled to create grazing land for cattle, just so people can eat their big macs and have heart attacks. If everyone just cut back on the amount of meat they eat, it'd be better for the environment and the animals, and the people would be healthier. And yet... there are lots of people who can't seem to go a single meal without killing some poor animal. Argh.

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, July 9, 2002 02:50:11 AM

****A large red flower sprouts from a pot of earth in the corner. The bud opens a bit, and from out of the petals emerge a pair of flowery wreathes. Then the red bloom stands upright, and reveals itself as mearly the red robed form of Blaise.**** Some welcome wreathes for a reunion with more old friends!

AIRWALKER> Welcome back!! [places a welcome wreath around Airwalker's neck]

BATYA> And the same for you!! [Another welcome wreath around Batya's neck]

THE DEBATE OF THE PAST WEEK> [holds up hands] Hey, as far as I'm concerned, to each his/her own (so long as each can respect the views of the others).
Like many here, I wish we had some more respect for the things we eat (I think in elementary school we learned that some Native Americans would actually apologize to any animal they killed and thank it for its meat, and I always liked that). I'd also be happier if conditions in the meat factories were improved (and frankly, I've been playing around with a few ideas, though there's no guarantee any will work).
Anyway, that's pretty much my only thoughts on the subject.

That's enough for now, at least until the DCV (and, like Todd, I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be KINGDOM). Until then, farewell. ****Blaise jumps into the air and dives back into the pot of earth, vanishing completely beneath the soil's surface.****

Monday, July 8, 2002 09:55:15 PM

Hi, Batya. Long time no see.

And, yes, "Kingdom" does precede "Monsters". (They simply aired the eps out of order).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 8, 2002 06:30:29 PM

Bud-Clare> i merely meant that humans have evolved to eat meat if it is available. on a spiritual level people can say eating meat is right or wrong and whatever, hell spirituality can even justify cannabalism. but i'm not talking spiritually, i'm talking naturally, and there is nothing naturally wrong with humans eating meat.
sorry for the confusion, i hope that clears it up a bit!

Monday, July 8, 2002 04:14:18 PM

For anyone who doesn't look back at last week's posts:

My Gathering 2002 picture gallery is up. I still have some more I'd like to add, but here's most of them. Click my name.

Also, my journal is up too, edited better for spelling and grammar.

Matt> Geez. See what you've done! I don't know how you managed to pack the whole "vegetarians vs. carnivores vs. omnivores vs. the world" debate started by you and Gabe and fit it on the plane with you, but I was sure somehow the whole thing would end up as a topic of discussion here. ;) (Sigh, shaking my head) Oh well. :)

Jimmy> "Jim R. that mac is looking better evryday if it means this sort of $#!% wont happen." Yes...yes...! You must join the Mac side. Join the Mac...Oops! Didn't mean to try and hypnotize you there. So you use AOL? Last I heard, AOL was supposedly going to finally update their software for Mac with the overwhelming success OS X seems to be inviting. Mac users are using or still using version 4 or something like that. AOL did release an OS X version, but it was still like version 4. Nothing with any new features like its Windows counterpart has.

Jim R. - [<-- G2002 photos]
Monday, July 8, 2002 04:07:54 PM

Well well well ... Gargoyles coming out on DVD, the Gathering coming back to NYC ...

It might be time to come out of retirement.

Greg Bishansky, would you be so good as to drop me an email?


Batya "The Toon" Wittenberg - [batyatoon at hotmail dot com]
Monday, July 8, 2002 02:38:03 PM

Jimmy "thou shalt have dominion over the earth."

That is a largely misinterpreted line in Gensis. I took a course on trying to understand what is meant by that, and it is not to taken as e"xploit nature to it's fullest extremes. If people read furhter on, it's discovered that God gave rules on how nature is to be treated. For instance, trees could not be cut down during a war under any circumstances; and animals HAD to be killed in a certain manner, else the meat is considered dirty; and hunting for pleasure was considered a wanton destruction of God's creation. When we were given dominion over the earth, it was to be as earth's care takers and stewards since in Genesis we see the Earth not being able to function as God had told it to.
Gabriel "gaygoyle."
Monday, July 8, 2002 12:47:15 PM

Life> Pigs and chickens may be useful to the cycle of life, but the domesticated ones are raised by farmers to be killed and consumed. We only kill horses for glue once they have "outlived their usefulness." It isn't a very respectful thing to do, but that is the way the world works. I agree that if you respect life while you are eating meat, there is no problem. So I guess we all agree that there is nothing "evil" about eating meat. I was arguing for nothing.
But, as far as the lack of respect thing goes, yes that is a shame, but I don't see how we can change that. I think this whole irreverence for other forms of life that seems inherent in so many cultures today comes from that one "Though shalt have dominion over animals," quote. Just gives people freedom to do whatever they want. It's a shame really.

Monday, July 8, 2002 12:26:48 PM

A giant robotic Demona enters the cr and lands in the middle of the room. Steam pours out of the chest seconds before it opens up. Spacebabie exists the Mecha and usea a jet pack to safely land on the ground

Todd>>>Your sure? I could have sworn "Monsters" came before "Kingdom" Of course the episode didn't air until 1996. Stupid Fox 35 screwed that up.

PETA---these people are messed up. They show pictures of animals being tortured to little kids outside of circuses traumatizing them. I won't go to a circus that has an animal act.((Would love to see Circe de Solei)) but I have a problem with people trying to freak out little kids. They also put up anit milk adds showing pics of college students with beer mustaches. They would rather see minors getting drunk that have them drink milk.

Mooncat---They want humans not to have pets, as it's animal slavery.
Oy slavery? My cats do less work than I do. If anything I'm their servant.
Climbs back into the mecha Demona. The chest seals up and a minute later the mecha flies out of the room.

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Fl, USA
Monday, July 8, 2002 11:22:50 AM

Oh, and sorry about the double post, but it's "Kingdom" that we should be doing this week, not "Monsters".
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 8, 2002 08:10:09 AM

Wow, welcome back, Airwalker! That was quite a pleasant surprise, seeing you back here; I was beginning to fear that you'd left for good.

Some interesting comments of yours, too, about bringing "Gargoyles" back. I'll have to post more about them tonight, but one little comment:

You mentioned that "Dark Ages" would face the problem of "prequelitis" (i.e., we all know how the story ends in 994 already). Actually, I think that the other big problem it might face would be the 10th century setting; animated adventure series are generally set in high-tech (modern or futuristic) periods, and one set in the early Middle Ages might be less likely to pull in a vast audience (at least, according to "conventional wisdom" among animation companies) precisely because of that. (I'd eagerly watch such a thing, but I know that I'm definitely far from typical). On the other hand, the recent success of the Lord of the Rings movie (and with two more in the series to come) might have awakened more of an audience for "fantasy settings".

Re "Ask Greg": Yes, a lot of the problem is that poor Greg keeps on getting asked the same questions over and over again: What are gargoyles? Why did the show end? Will it return? And so on. Quite a pity, really. It simply clogs up the queue and takes longer for him to get to the questions that haven't been asked before (or at least, not as often).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 8, 2002 07:01:18 AM

matt> "all living things should be respected, even if you are killing that thing for food. if you can respectfully kill brocolli to eat it than you should be able to respectfully kill a cow to eat."
That's the problem... most people aren't the least bit respectful. They say "it's just a stupid animal. It doesn't matter." And the animals aren't killed in a remotely respectful and kind way. In their last moments of life, they know what is about to happen to them, and they are terrified beyond anything that we can imagine. They die a ghastly, ugly death, and the people who eat them don't give a damn. If they were treated respectfully and humanely, I wouldn't care so much, but they aren't, and that doesn't appear likely to change anytime soon.

"eat meat if you wish, or don't,"
That I can deal with, but...

"but don't say its wrong, thats like saying the sky is the wrong color or Tuesday should fall before Monday instead of after..."
..._that_ I have a problem with. Why is it okay for you to say that it's all right to eat meat, but it's not okay for other people to say that eating meat is wrong? Why is your opinion the only one that matters here? And your analogy is flat wrong, IMO. If someone were to say that it's wrong for _animals_ to eat meat, _then_ your analogy would hold. But people have a choice whether or not to eat meat, and there is no clear answer as to which is the "morally" correct choice. Since there is no clear right answer, your whole sky color/day of the week analogy makes no sense.

And, since I'm now a bit cranky (But just a tiny bit, so don't worry), I'm now going to jump directly into this debate, rather then just lurking around the edges. I do believe that everything has a spirit, the plants, the rocks, everything, so killing anything diminishes the whole. But, since creation and destruction are (in theory) inextricably linked, there is no net change. (Again, in theory. People have a nasty habit of upsetting the balance, but that's another subject.) The problem is the way that the animals are killed. Animals suffer when they are killed, plants do not. (Even if you want to argue that plants might suffer in some way that we don't understand, the way that plants are killed doesn't, IMO, differ significantly from the way that they would die on their own.) Eating animals adds to the aggregate amount of suffering in the universe, eating plants (as far as we know) does not. So, until the animals that are eaten are treated better, eating plants is preferable. IMO.

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, July 8, 2002 03:48:45 AM

Airwalker> Hey! It's about damn time. *hugs* Welcome back. Have some cookies.

Lurking Fish> "it's sucking my soul dry, I swear.. or.. are ALL universities like that? :P"
Mine is... *sighs*

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, July 8, 2002 03:03:31 AM

damn, missed the top ten, you kids are quick!

*takes a look at the Ask Greg queue, ugh, you should have to take a test proving you watch the show and are at least a bit interested in an answer before being allowed to ask questions!*

matts final word on LIFE> every living thing on this planet from a human to a virus from a cow to an oak tree has a common ancestor. we are all related if you go back far enough. furthermore, every living creature is EQUALLY evolved as we are. since we all spring from a common ancestor we all have been evolving for the same amount of time. so any plant is just as evolved as you and i. whether one animal has more legs or abilities or intelligence or whatever is a matter of the course of its evolution. our evolution has led us to be omnivores. we have evolved to have a diet of animals and plants and sometimes fungus and insects as well. whether we choose to eat these things is up to us, but there is nothing wrong with eating any of them. its nature, the circle of life. it doesn't matter if something can feel pain or put together a geometric equation, all living things are alive and all living things share an equal right to life. all living things should be respected, even if you are killing that thing for food. if you can respectfully kill brocolli to eat it than you should be able to respectfully kill a cow to eat. its what we call the food chain, and without it we wouldn't be here and the planet's biology would collapse, eat meat if you wish, or don't, but don't say its wrong, thats like saying the sky is the wrong color or Tuesday should fall before Monday instead of after... 'nuf said...

sorry for yet another ramble... "Monsters" this week???

Monday, July 8, 2002 03:02:45 AM

10th!! :)
Knoxville - [knox@ketnar.org]
Monday, July 8, 2002 01:14:47 AM

Gargoyles DVD: Don't have a player yet(was one of the first people to get a hi fi vcr(beta even) but among the last to get a DVD player.

I personally would like to see both th 5 awakenings eps AND the movie. There are enough differences in the audio mixing to make it worth while. Lines in the movie are not in the 5 awakenings eps. Like Goliath saying "god speed lads" when the trio goes off for the disc at cyberbitoics tower. Or Hudson saying "and port in a storm' when being chased through the subway tunnles. even the sound effects are different. So it would well be worth having them both on there. Either that, or lets have the first season-uncut on DVD.

Just my 2 cents-still not worth much since its Canadian money.

9th or 10th

Monday, July 8, 2002 01:13:14 AM


And tomorrow.. I get to start summer school. Oh what joy.

In happier news, this is my LAST YEAR OF POST SECONDARY EDUCATION!!!!!! Then I will be free FREEEEEEEEE I SAY!!

(and egads, I can't WAIT to get away from that place.. it's sucking my soul dry, I swear.. or.. are ALL universities like that? :P)

Lurking Fish
Monday, July 8, 2002 12:45:39 AM

Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, July 8, 2002 12:42:08 AM


Hi everyone! How's everyone been doing?

It's been such a long time since I was last here I'm almost afraid that nobody will remember me. And there are so many new faces! That's great! I hadn't intended to drop off the face of the earth and disappear from posting the way I did but a whole variety of real life factors (finishing college, moving onto the workforce, etc) diverted my attention. I didn't completely drop out; I had been lurking from time to time. But I finally decided to plunge back into the Comment Room Scene once again.

So let me get down to it :-) -

I hope that everyone who went had a great time at the Gathering and that everyone in general had a Happy Fourth of July. I'm glad to hear that the 2003 Gathering will be in NYC - I might actually be able to stop by at this one.

GARGOYLES ON DVD - I'm really glad to hear about this and I can't wait to get my hands on it. I'll hope that it will be the uncut AWAKENINGS episodes rather than the edited movie or the edited Toon Disney versions. Is it known at this point exactly which version its going to be? I'd still buy the movie version but I'd rather have the invididual unedited episodes.

Hopefully the DVD release will be popular and we'll get the entire series released on DVD. I'm hoping for that since my tapes are starting to wear out. If it doesn't happen I'm going to have to find a way to transfer them to VCD. But I wonder - if the series does make it completely onto DVD do we want to see a release of The Goliath Chronicles? Or would it be preferable for it to stop at the end of HUNTERS MOON 3? On the one hand if TGC isn't released then we don't get THE JOURNEY released. But on the other hand a release of TGC might force its inclusion into any new series continuity. (As alternatives we could have a HUNTERS MOON DVD with THE JOURNEY as an extra. Or perhaps with THE JOURNEY added on with the Season 2 version of the opening and episode breaks edited into it, playing the episode as an epilogue to Season 2 instead of the beginning of Season 3 and then ignoring the rest of TGC.)

And hopefully whatever version they do end up going with, they'll use a better packaging, more fitting to the series, than they did for the VHS version of AWAKENINGS. (They're never going to get the audience that I imagine they're shooting for if they don't get the packaging down right. A cover can make or break a sale on almost anything - and that campy cover from the AWAKENINGS VHS just isn't going to cut it in my opinion. I'd honestly prefer something along the lines of a completely black keepsake with the front basically looking something in design like one of the Gargoyles Pins that Gore put up scans for - Goliath in Shadow with GARGOYLES written in fire underneath.)

You know, after hearing about this DVD news and about Toon Disney's generousity at this year's Gathering I am very encouraged about the possibility of an eventual GARGOYLES revival in the near future. And let me just say in advance of the next point I want to make that I am strongly convinced that the evidence of a strong existing fandom does play a role in that. (By the way, about how many people were at this year's Gathering? And have the numbers been increasing from year to year?)

But I'm also wondering if a larger part might be a desire on Disney's part (and particularly Toon Disney) to get into competition with Cartoon Network and its Toonami and Adult Swim Blocks. To anyone who's been keeping up with them, CN has been killing almost everyone in its weekday and primetime timeslots for the cartoon/animation audience. And they've been making even more headway with the appearance of Adult Swim (the Saturday action version, not the Sunday comedy version). With shows like Cowboy Bebop, Yu Yu Hakusho, Various UC Gundam series and soon to be joined by G-Gundam and Inu Yasha, CN is slowly crushing its competition. I imagine that Disney does want a piece of the action from that audience. And that when they take a look at what they have to offer that might be able to compete with a CN show, that the closest they have is GARGOYLES.

I have no evidence to bear this feeling out but I think that if they see that GARGOYLES (hopefully uncut) does well on DVD then it might be followed with a revival on TV in some form (if not the main GARGOYLES series then at least a likely spinoff - probably G2198). This is probably just Disney's way of seeing if more audience is there for them to tap into aside from the fanbase that is shown to exist by the Gathering.

And knowing the way Disney's been operating recently (you know basically one new idea once in a while and otherwise just endless sequels and spinoffs of existing material), if GARGOYLES could compete with CN with at least a slot in the PrimeTime hours on ToonDisney then Disney might just go with it and give us one or two of the spinoffs together with it and have a block of interrelated but seperate series.

(It's be kind fo fun to see an hour block of GARGOYLES, and BAD GUYS. Or a two hour block made up of GARGOYLES, BAD GUYS, PENDRAGON, and THE NEW OLYMPIANS.

As a side note I should say that I feel that a prequel like DARK AGES and a side story like TIMEDANCER would probably work better as either mini-series or movies. DARK AGES can tell a great story but your audience knows where its heading and unless its short and to the point you can risk people losing interest. STAR WARS prequels worked more or less because they're movies and they get to the point. If they were TV series I'd probably lose interest after a while and sit screaming at the set "Just become Darth Vader already!"

TIMEDANCER had a similier problem in that you know where the character starts and ends up (i.e. in the original series). You care about the character but eventually its all going to loop back to the original series so a lot of the suspence is gone. "Will Brooklyn die? To be Continued!" won't end with the same suspence when you know your going to see an older version of the character in the original series. A mini-series or a movie (or a series of movies or a series of mini-series or outright as a flashback in an existing series) which would be limited by nature and have the audience come in with different expectations would work much better.

G2198 doesn't have the same problems as DARK AGES and TIMEDANCER in that it takes place so far in the future that its practically an independent series without connection to the main series other than being set in the same universe. And while it does share characters from the earlier series (like Brooklyn and Demona) they are so far removed from the original series and can have changed so much from the original series that they can be refered to as almost practically new characters.)

I'm also wondering if ther's an opportunity to also revive the comic through a successful DVD release. Recently Transformers and GI Joe have had comic book revivals (moderately successful ones from what I've heard) that are following on the heals of successful DVD rereleases. Maybe DVD could work its magic with GARGOYLES too.

A comic release has a number of advantages to it - first and most important being that the writer (Greg Weisman of course) can set continuity however he likes. TGC or not, First Comic series continuity counted or not, its much more flexible. Plus the demands for an audience aren't as great. (That's not to say you don't need or want a certain number of audience to keep the book going but that the numbers are much less than you'd need to keep a TV series successful.)

Second is that any number of spinoffs can be tackled at the same time - as mini-series or as backup stories, etc. You don't have to be limited to just one series. And the range of stories you can tackle can be larger since Comic Code Standards and Practices can be looser than what a Disney TV series would have to deal with. (Or can be ditched altogether from time to time.) The main drawbacks though are in pagecount and in time between issues - a short monthly comic schedule would drive me crazy.

While I'd love to see GARGOYLES make it back to TV to be honest even if it does, that only guarantees it with only a limited number of episodes/seasons before the new run eventually also comes to an end. Same going for the spinoffs. Comics (or Graphic Novels or regular books) have the advantage of lasting much much longer than the TV series itself. (For example weren't Robotech novels still coming out long after the series ended?)

I'd love to have both GARGOYLES on TV and then have some sort of Comic/GN/Book start up since it can potentially outlive a limited TV series format (which again I'll say I do really want to see regardless) and continue giving us stories for years.

Airwalker - [war-machine@rocketmail.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, July 8, 2002 12:30:06 AM


Just waiting for the pins to come to our local Disney store... :\

Fire Storm and Lady Mystic
Monday, July 8, 2002 12:18:21 AM


Hey all ^_^ Long time no post :)
All this excitement about Gargoyles on DVD has got the old juices flowing again (heheheh)
Anyway, I'm just writing to say that I stopped by my local Disney store and have 8 of the Gargoyles pins in my possession (I would have more but that's all they had on the rack) if anybody is interested in owning one, please e-mail me. This offer is meant as an attempt to spread the love :) If you can't get to a Disney store or don't have one in your area, all I'm asking is $5 per pin (yes, I'm offering to eat sales tax AND shipping) I'll be picking up more as they become available from my local store but I will be sending them out on a first come, first serve basis. If you DO have a Disney store in your area, I highly recommend getting yours there (if they're available) in an effort to show Disney that there's a market for Gargoyles in other places than just Fresno, California :D

IRC Goliath - [irc_goliath@yahoo.com]
Fresno, CA, USA
Monday, July 8, 2002 12:18:06 AM


Sata> I liked the Xanatos lightbulb one best, although I'm probably biased, as I worship the God of Efficiency. (Owen could give the Borg lessons...)

Jimmy> "whereas horses till the land, etc. so we don't eat them."
But we do make dog food and glue out of them.

"Sort of like not naming your farm animals."
I know someone who bought two cows, a pig, and some chickens, named them, took care of them, and then ate them. I do not like these people.

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, July 8, 2002 12:16:27 AM

And I'm back already. Second.
yes, you beat me this time Phil, but beware!
so, we good for "Monsters" this week?

Lord Sloth - [spunkidge13@hotmail.com]
Kingston, ON, Canada
Monday, July 8, 2002 12:02:53 AM

First! (Did I beat Lord sloth?)
Monday, July 8, 2002 12:00:49 AM