Comments for the week ending July 29, 2002

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TODD - You wrote: [Well, as I said before, actually wiping the good questions alongside the repetitive ones is unfair to the people who asked them (not to mention all the comments on Greg's rambles of episodes from "Double Jeopardy" to "Heritage" would be lost and need to be rewritten).]

What I meant as an alternative to an overall purge of the archive was to go through it one question at a time and then selectivly clean it out, thus leaving the comments on ramblings and various other good questions while removing all the repeat question. (Takes a lot of time but other than an overall purge I don't really see a way to help shorten out the backlog.)

You wrote: [So the solution will most likely have to be something else.]

Then there really isn't anything that we can do except hope that Greg has enough free time on his hands to go through nine-ten months of backlog.

But I do strongly suggest that some sort of new rules be instituted in the near future to help prevent such a backlog from occuring. (Backlogs in general are impossible to avoid since it all depends on how much time and desire Greg has to answer questions but still it would probably lighten the load a lot if he didn't have to deal with obvious repeat questions.)



TALEWEAVER - You wrote: [Whether by nature or nurture or a combination, most gargoyles are protectors, I wondered how gargoyles perceive and evaluate threats?]

I figure it would depend on mostly if they are protecting at all and if they are, then what they are protecting. If they are like the Manhattan Clan and protect the citizens of a specific area from crime then they are likely to take every major crime seriously. But if they are protecting something more specific then they might concentrate on the threat to that more specific thing. For example if the Xanadu Clan really are mainly protecting Gargoyle Beasts (I'm speculating but it could be possible) then they would mainly react to a threat to the Beasts or the Beasts population while not caring much about the welfare of a crime ridden human village nearby.

After that threat evaluation would be based from the obvious stuff like the specific threat, the circumstances surrounding it, and how much personal effect it would have on them. The more personal the more likely they are to get involved.

You wrote: [Before Griff's return, the London gargs saw the trouble on the street and saw it as not a threat worth defending.]

Because they weren't defining crime on the street as a threat to themselves, their clan or their shop. (They should have though; if the neighborhood goes to hell then their business would too.) Griff saw it differently. But I'm not so sure that they would really adopt to Manhattan style crime fighting. They still have a business to run and a clan to support. I imagine that the London Duo (can't really count Griff anymore since he'd eventually head off with Arthur) would get involved if they saw something happen outside or near the shop but I can't see them going off to stop crime across the city.

(Griff I could see doing it because it fits the heroic "Knight" feel of the character. But the others? It doesn't feel like something that they would start doing. The new beginning that they spoke of to me was more of a "we won't keep our heads in the sand anymore - we'll take an interest in stuff happening in our community because it really does have an effect on us".)

You wrote: [Seeing that indirect threat as a threat seems hard for gargs to jump on.]

Depends on the Gargoyle. Griff saw the nazis as a direct threat. (Technically they were since they were bombing the city at the time; but he doesn't talk about them as a direct threat to him and his home - he rallies against them to Leo and Una and calls for fighting them because he can see them as a threat to everything.) Leo and Una didn't see it like that so much because the nazis hadn't invaded the city yet and so weren't a threat in their eyes. (They were still in a WW I mindset so to speak, discounting airpower; a strange thing for a Gargoyle.) It was more a lack of imagination (and probably a little fear too) that trapped their thinking while Griff saw it differently.

You wrote: [I'm guessing if she ever found another clan it would be a matter of nights before the leader was disposed in some fashion and Demona started calling the shots.]

I wouldn't write out that scenario but I think that its not as likely as you might think. First taking Leadership can't be that easy for a new Gargoyle to just up and take. There is a chain of command. Then there is of course the question of trust to consider. They would give her the benefit of the doubt as a Gargoyle but would they trust her so much after a short period of time completely enough to overturn a second in command and make her leader? We're talking about established Clans here with structure and history, not a patchwork Clan like the one that Demona led in Scotland in the 11th century.

Demona does have an interest in overall leadership but I don't think that she would make the move to take over another Clan outright at this point. Maybe when Humanity is gone but right now I'm not so sure.

She wanted the Manhattan Clan but they were her birth Clan and technically she was still Second in Command until Brooklyn took her place. Her argument was mainly that Goliath was weak and had to be removed so she as Second could become Leader. (The same argument she gave when she thought that Hudson should have been removed and replaced by his Second in Command Goliath in the flashbacks in LONG WAY TO MORNING.)

You wrote: [It does make me wonder though, how did she gain control of the clan in the City of Stone flashbacks.]

It wasn't an established Clan; it was a patchwork of refugee Gargoyles who ended up forming a Clan. It could be possible that they formed the Clan around her rather than her joining them and then taking over as Leader.

(She after all did make a good leader for a Clan just trying to survive. She was completely ruthless and her leadership style at the time could have kept them together in a way that a more mellow leader like Goliath might not have been able to do under the same circumstances. And of course we don't know how she was all the time - we saw the bitter moments but that doesn't mean that she was angry all the time. And we don't know how she behaved in leadership in the castle under Macbeth.)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, July 28, 2002 04:01:55 PM
IP: 12.88.88.170

Bud-Clare> maybe a completly genetic driven human would be pointless, but thats cuz we are human and are very nuture driven. a supernova explodes completly by natural laws, but its implications are hardly meaningless or pointless. in its nature driven explosion it can create new stars, black holes, in fact the very stuff that you and i and everyone is made of! maybe that star wasn't "raised" to be meaningful, but it sure accomplished something meaningful...
matt
Sunday, July 28, 2002 03:04:50 PM
IP: 216.178.8.62

*sheepish grin* Garg stuff fer sale still! Clickie below. ;) *poOf*
Desdemona
Sunday, July 28, 2002 08:20:05 AM
IP: 4.40.20.140

Hello all,

The Protection Debate> It has been an interesting topic. I'd like to add a thought and a question or two to it. It's something I ponder whenever I see or read a time story.

Whether by nature or nurture or a combination, most gargoyles are protectors, I wondered how gargoyles perceive and evaluate threats?

Goliath and his clan come from a time where the threats were pretty direct, but indirect ones were a bit of blindspot. But is it entirely naivete? Different time periods have different mindsets. But consider the modern clans. Before Griff's return, the London gargs saw the trouble on the street and saw it as not a threat worth defending. Seeing that indirect threat as a threat seems hard for gargs to jump on. Just something to think about.

Demona and other clans> I don't think she knew any outside of the London clan. While she isn't as high on the meglomania scale as Xanatos, Demona never struck me as the type the could settle playing subordinate if she could play the leader. Most of her schemes in the 1st season where to control the clan, after a while she wanted to destroy them outright. I'm guessing if she ever found another clan it would be a matter of nights before the leader was disposed in some fashion and Demona started calling the shots. It does make me wonder though, how did she gain control of the clan in the City of Stone flashbacks.

Cya
Taleweaver - [loremaster27@hotmail.com]
Saturday, July 27, 2002 11:28:25 PM
IP: 24.205.111.136

matt> It's pointless for a sentient lifeform. What would be the point of your life if everything that you are and can ever be is dictated exclusively or even largely by your genes? That would mean that your parents needed to take little or no responsibility for the way they raised you, because it didn't mattter anyway, and you wouldn't have to take responsibility for any of your actions, and you'd have no hope of becoming a better person than you are now. That wouldn't be a terribly meaningful existence, would it?
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:44:08 PM
IP: 129.21.10.100

Bud-Clare> mnay animals and plants and fungi etc run entirely on nature, no nuture at all, just instinct and natural drives and urges and i don't think these beings are pointless or uninteresting. humans are social animals and have alot of nuture, so we tend to think of beings driven more by nature as more primitive or whatever... and thats not right! i don't think a gargoyle runs completly on nature, but they wouldn't be uninteresting or pointless if they did!
matt
Saturday, July 27, 2002 08:20:12 PM
IP: 207.230.48.125

matt> And I think it's more nurture, because life would seem fundamentally pointless to me otherwise. But in the end... who the hell cares? ;)
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Saturday, July 27, 2002 03:40:46 PM
IP: 129.21.10.100

Bud-Clare> so essentially what we've been debating about is not whether gargs protecting is nature or nuture, but rather how much of it is nature and how much is nuture...
i can accept that its probably a combonation of nature and nuture, but i tend t think its more nature...
matt
Saturday, July 27, 2002 02:29:46 AM
IP: 207.230.48.38

Gabriel> "You mean the kinds of truths that are true only accoding to the prevailing paradigm, meaning that they will change later when paradigms change?"
I mean the kind of truth that has some kind of evidence to back it up, as opposed to something based entirely on assumption and speculation which the person then _acts_ as if there is actual evidence of, when there isn't.

"Sorta like "thou shalt not kill." It means don't kill. It's cut and clear, no hidden message, no secret way of reading it."
And yet, plenty of people do interpret it other ways. Funny, that. (Plus, there's the question of the reliability of the source...) It must be nice having the final say as to what is or is not true.

matt> "obviouslythis debate will never be resolved without something on tv or word from Greg."
And possibly not even then. If Greg answers with anything other than "both," I won't buy it. This debate is essentially the old nature versus nurture debate, and neither of those can exist in a vacuum. If someone were born and grew up in a cave, with no contact with other lifeforms, the very lack of any upbringing would be a kind of upbringing in itself. A gargoyle in that situation would have relatively little to protect, and nothing to protect against, so even if he was somehow born with a predisposition towards protecting total strangers, that instinct would die out. If, after the gargoyle had grown up, someone wandered into the cave, the gargoyle would protect himself and his food in the same way any animal would. Any grand notions about Gargoyles Protecting would have to be retaught (or taught for the first time, or some freaky combination of the two ;). So, as I see it, the real question is not whether it is biology or upbringing, but rather a question of percentages. And, unfortunately, getting accurate percentages would require actual omniscience, _and_ the percentages would vary somewhat from person to person. (And then you could always bring the matter of souls into the question, and make things _really_ complicated, since that would introduce a third set a traits: those that aren't genetic OR learned, but present nevertheless. (Unless you want to argue that the soul is just the sum of the other two variables, and therefore exerts no influence on the person, which is also probably a valid way to go. :P))

*sighs* I'd better go eat now, before I start babbling again.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Saturday, July 27, 2002 01:15:46 AM
IP: 129.21.11.28

sorry if i'm getting mean or whatever in my posts. obviouslythis debate will never be resolved without something on tv or word from Greg. i asked him, we'll see in about 10 months...
matt
Friday, July 26, 2002 08:24:40 PM
IP: 207.230.48.85

AIRWALKER - [Maybe the Questions Asked Archive has to be cleaned out completely or perhaps it should be shut down for very very limited period, perhaps a week, and during that time all the repeat quesitons in that current archive should be purged to help Greg get over the huge backlog.]

Well, as I said before, actually wiping the good questions alongside the repetitive ones is unfair to the people who asked them (not to mention all the comments on Greg's rambles of episodes from "Double Jeopardy" to "Heritage" would be lost and need to be rewritten). And I've already passed the bulk of the questions (up until the last week or so), so it may be too late to delete the repetitious ones. So the solution will most likely have to be something else.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, July 26, 2002 07:09:14 PM
IP: 65.57.59.8

TODD - You wrote: [Does Demona know about the other clans? We've seen no evidence of it. I certainly doubt that she is aware of the Ishimura clan (even Demona's gift for self-deception would have a hard time weathering the discovery of an entire human community living in peace with gargoyles). As to the London clan, since we have no evidence either for or against it, I will not even speculate at this point.]

Greg mentioned once that its more than likely that she was aware of the London Clan which would make sense considering that she has been wandering around Western Europe for a few hundred years. The odds of her running into a Gargoyle or two who might venture into the city could be good since they'd all be sticking to the high spots to get enough lift for gliding.

Plus of course the fact that the London Clan runs a magic doesn't hurt either. Its supposed to be a shop that has been around for 500 years right? So it would be reasonable that sometime during that period she stopped by to check out the merchandise. Its hard to believe that there would be a magic shop in Europe that she wouldn't have heard about. (Hearing that there are Humans dressed in "masks" running the shop might have gotten her curious enough to take the risk to just walk in. Or she could have tried a break in and found out the truth that way.)

But I don't think that she knows of any other Clans around the world. She definitely didn't know about Avalon or New Olympus. Ishimura, Pukhan, and Guatemala are also highly unlikely - her sphere of living seems to be limited to Western Europe and North America. I doubt that she knows about any Clans that are in Asia or South America. (I'm not sure about Xanadu though - it would depend on where they are specifically. If they are in the Himalayan mountains ala Shangra-la then I could see a scenario where she might have headed in that direction to seek out a source of magic and stumbled across them. Its still highly unlikely that she knows about them but it could be possible. After all if Coldstone could end up in the area then its possible Demona could too.) And she doesn't know about the Lock Ness Clan because she states outright in HUNTERS MOON 2 that she believed the last Scottish Clan (her Clan) to have been wiped out, implying that she doesn't believe that there are any Gargoyles left in that specific part of the world.



MATT - You wrote: [no, the clones are terrible gargoyles to use in the protection argument!! they are not even perfect clones of the Clan. no other gargoyles in the world have green hair (like Brook's clone) or red eyes (like Thailog and Lex's clone) and in their minds they are even more different!]

Their coloring is different but thats only because they were rapidly aged so that they wouldn't be baby Gargoyle Clones. Otherwise they are physically identical to the individuals that they were cloned from.

(The only one who isn't an outright Clone is Delilah since she did have some changes made to have her look like Elisa. She is a Hybrid and on that point it could be argued that she wouldn't be right for this debate since we don't know how much a Hybrid would vary from a normal Gargoyle or Gargoyle Clone. But according to ASKGREG she's mainly Gargoyle with just enough Human DNA to have her look the way she does. Still I'm not throwing her into the argument - just Thailog and the other Clones who aren't Hybrids.)

They make the perfect examples in this argument - they are physically the same Gargoyles as the Clan they were cloned from. That's what a clone is - an exact physical copy. Aside from the coloring there is no difference between them and the Manhattan Clan. And as for their minds being different, that is the whole point. Their minds aren't physically different. They were just taught different so they are reacting differently. They make the best example here that Protection is not just an instinct, that it isn't just a pure biological reaction, that it is something that has to be taught and accepted by the individual. Thailog wasn't raised to believe in Protection so he doesn't. The Clones weren't raised to believe in Protection so they don't. Disqualifying them don't make sense - they are Gargoyles just the same (in fact almost exactly the same) as any of the other Gargoyles in the series. And they help prove a point - that protection isn't just biology.

You wrote: [Thailog is intelligent, but totally driven by his programming, and the clones can barely speak because their minds have been so distorted. lots of biological urges can be averted by brainwashing and mind tinkering.]

So Thailog's programming is to build a huge financial empire so that he can overthrow, humiliate and destroy Xanatos? Sort of seems silly for Xanatos who designed his programming to have him do something like that. All Thailog was programmed with was the Xanatos take on life, the universe, and everything. He is making his own decisions and drawing his own conclusions from that. The only difference between him and Goliath are education and personal experience. Otherwise he's a physical copy of Goliath (with different coloring due to rapid ageing).

The other Clones don't speak because they haven't been given the education to do anything other than speak a few broken sentences here and there. He gave them only what they need to know (in his opinion) - Obey Thailog. They don't need a tremendous vocabulary to do that. (Delilah who was intended to be a consort probably had more education even if it still had Obey Thailog at its heart but we didn't get a chance to see that because she didn't say anything other than two sentences in the episode and didn't show up again. But the sentences she did say weren't broken which suggests she has more education.)

You wrote: [the more we debate this the more i see that gargoyles ARE natural protectors.]

My view shifted slightly since the beginning of this debate. When it first started I wasn't convinced that biology played any role at all and that it was all cultural. Now I'm more inclinded to believe that it may have been a different biological approach to how they raised children (collectively vs individually) that influenced them to develop a culture that places emphasis on protection. But I still don't think that it is biology that is motivating them, only that biology helped shape some of the basis of how they formed their culture and society. I feel now more than ever that the protection culture of Gargoyles is more a result of making a choice which is influenced by the way they are raised and that any pure biological urge to protect is limited in the same way it is in Humans - to family (or more specifically their definition of family).

You wrote: [. i quote greg Weisman, "Their (gargoyles) main purpose in life is to safeguard the weak and innocent- both gargoyle and human- from evil and injustice."]

Their main purpose doesn't mean that they are being biologically motivated to do it, that some overwhelming urge is driving them to protect. Purpose is something that can be adopted. Purpose can mean something that they are taught to pursue and doesn't have to be something that they will pursue.

You wrote: [Goliath, "Gargoyles protect. It is our nature, our purpose. To lose that is to become corrupt, empty, lifeless." the proof is all over teh series and Greg W's ramblings that gargoyles are born to protect, not taught. they are living out a legacy in a sense, but it is not just a tradition, it is an instinct.]

If the argument was that they are physically inclinded to be nocternal protectors then I wouldn't disagree so much. And in a sense I'm not disagreeing with the idea that Gargoyles do protect and that they have embraced the idea of Protection as a serious part of their lives and what they do with them. But the way that Greg put it doesn't have to be seen literally. They are "born to protect". Some people are "born to be wild" :-) Doesn't mean that it is a literal thing, just a figurative statement that describes how they might feel about it and how some people might see them.

You wrote: [but we have to think of something. more stupid questions are being asked a day than Greg answers in a month! its becoming a HUGE problem. desperate times... maybe we should shut Aske Greg down until a solution is found...?]

Maybe the Questions Asked Archive has to be cleaned out completely or perhaps it should be shut down for very very limited period, perhaps a week, and during that time all the repeat quesitons in that current archive should be purged to help Greg get over the huge backlog.



MOONCAT - You wrote: [I see a gargoyles need to protect like a human's need for sex. Not doing it won't kill you, but it will probably make you cranky.]

Not a bad comparison but I'm still not sure I can buy it as a pure biological drive outside of the bare minimum we've been accepting (i.e parent protecting child, etc). We have after all seen enough Gargoyles who don't protect (or who are protecting but don't really want to) who aren't suffering under any withdrawal effects. Thailog isn't affected at all. He seems pretty happy with his Xanatosian life when he isn't losing a battle to Goliath and Company. And Demona's being cranky has a more to do with the general miserableness of her life than with the fact that she isn't protecting. And let's not forget that Yama who was protecting Ishimura wasn't exactly that happy about doing it - he wanted his clan to move onto something else so that they could have a better life. And of course when the Clan moved to the Clocktower but before REAWAKENING they weren't protecting anything and yet didn't seem at all bothered by it. (The Trio were arguing in HER BROTHERS KEEPER but they also had reasons to do that - Lord knows that if I had to spend all my time with my brother like the Trio had to do with each other, then we'd get on each others nerves too. But that doesn't really seem related to any protection instinct.)

I really think that Gargoyle protection instinct is only slightly different from Human protection; at its core its the same. It starts with family protection with the difference between the two is in how they define family. Humans generally apply this to biology while Gargoyle extend this idea to the Clan structure. (Sort of reminds me of the Raptors in Jurassic Park 3.) From there the Gargoyles went a different way and developed a culture around the protection structure that they had and made it a strong element of their culture. But that it isn't something that is binding on them - they won't die if they don't protect and the extent of their being upset if they don't protect is only based on how much they believe in the idea. If its important to them then they are upset and cranky. If it isn't (or isn't that much) then they aren't going to get that upset about it.

For example lets not forget that in METAMORPHASIS Brooklyn wanted to save Maggie because he took an interest in her but Broadway couldn't have cared less. He got out of there when things got messy without having a major interest in Maggie's welfare. (He wasn't even that interested when they first found her (except in that she wasn't Demona) and the GenUTech guys hadn't shown up yet.

You wrote: [For the most part, I take the "Gargoyles protect, it is their nature" the same way I take most fantasy related species traits -- Halflings are inquisitive, Dwarves are mercenary, Elves are stuck up... um, wise? Etc... Could be a culturally induced trait, could be biologically influenced, could be a mix of both. Who knows?]

I accept the idea in general too - in the Gargoyles Universe Gargoyles protect. And in general I don't think about why they do it although it has been an interesting discussion to try and figure out why. :-) Its all fiction after all. There is a lot of leeway to have whatever you want be the truth. I'm just trying to put forward my idea of what might be in that universe based on what I've seen of it because its interesting to figure and its such a realistic fictional universe :-) that I like having an order to it. My explinations/theories aren't going to agree completely with real life science or theory because its not a real life universe. There's tons of opportunity to shift things. And unless its actually specifically stated in the series (whatever form it is in) its all theory anyway. I just think that the theory I'm accepting makes more sense. It does to me anyway. :-) In the end its all just fiction. Interesting fiction but still fiction.



FAIEQ - Welcome!
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, July 26, 2002 03:31:15 PM
IP: 12.88.94.63

Hi, This is the first time I'm posting in here so I'm feeling a bit 'cyber-nervous'.
Anyway, I journeyed to the Disney Store a few days ago to see if I could find these new gargoyles pins I've heard (or rather read) so much about. But to my dismay, I couldn't find any and I was wondering as I live on that jolly little Island across the sea (Britain) whether these pins would have even be on sale in England. Has any one outside of America seen or bought one of these pins?
I saw a few 'Winnie the Pooh' pins, and some various fairytale heroines (Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Tinker bell… etc), but no gargoyle pins. The heroine pins were mood pins; these gargoyle pins aren't in the same collection are they? They could depict the 'angry' side of someone.
BTW, I stumbled across this website, www.jumptheshark.com. For those of you who don't know, jumping the shark is when you realize that 'your favorite television program has reached its peak. The instant that you know from now on… It's all downhill.'
It's a site where people comment on when their favorite show started to go downhill. Obviously I believe that gargoyles never 'jumped the shark' but TGC did from day one, with the exception of 'The Journey'.
Anyone, I checked out the site to see whether gargoyles was there and what people thought of the show. The majority of people agree that gargoyles jumped during TGC and the switch to ABC, but there are a few people who think that there were other elements of the show that led to it's demise, like Thailog and 'The Gathering'. I could understand why people disliked the world tour, but 'The Gathering' was a brilliant episode.
I thought I'd just mention the site here, click on my name if you want to visit it.
bye
Faieq
Friday, July 26, 2002 02:06:47 PM
IP: 213.122.22.90

Ignorance -- actually ignorance means lack of knowledge, and has NOTHING to do with intelligence levels. We are all born ignorant. We become less ignorant over time as we learn things.

By Nature is a saying, usually referring to expressed personal traits. You can say of a person, "She is sweet by nature" or "She is a bitch by nature" and neither would mean she it is an ingrained genetic/biological directive. You could say "Dwarves are mercenary by nature." and it would refer to their mythic cultural love of gold and jewels, but it could be something that is culturally developed, and not ingrained genetically. It would depend a lot on the writer.
Gargoyles, wether it's genetic or cultural for them to protect, is in the end, up to the writer in a given storyline, if they care to address it. I think it's open to interpetation. I mean, after all, Gargoyles, Disney's Gargoyles, Greg's Gargoyles... are Fictional Characters. They don't have actual genetics that we can take a look at real life and study. Their nature is what we make of it, and is malleable, subject to change. Greg is the original developer, but if Disney started a new series tomorrow, and some writer wrote up that Gargoyles were really creatures of pure magic, or were artificially created by aliens, etc, and the script was brought and put into production, then that would be that. Big owie all around, hey?

For the most part, I take the "Gargoyles protect, it is their nature" the same way I take most fantasy related species traits -- Halflings are inquisitive, Dwarves are mercenary, Elves are stuck up... um, wise? Etc... Could be a culturally induced trait, could be biologically influenced, could be a mix of both. Who knows?

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Friday, July 26, 2002 01:03:33 PM
IP: 68.102.1.42

*points down* that was me.
Gabriel "gaygoyle
Friday, July 26, 2002 11:31:23 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

Jimmy> << "Ignorant people are, by nature, an irrational lot.">> <<"Gargoyles are, by nature, a protective species,">>

Well, those two statements are completley differant.

People become ignorant, no one is born ignorant or is ignorant "by nature." There are retarded people, but that goes beyond ignorance into being handicapped. So in order fir natural to retain a pure definition as to being biolgical, being ignorant has to come about as
being gargoyle does, which doesn't happen. Ignorant people HAVE ignorance, gargoyles ARE gargoyles.

find a better quote ;P
Anonymous
Friday, July 26, 2002 11:30:49 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

"By nature" doesn't have to mean biological. For example: "Ignorant people are, by nature, an irrational lot." That doesn't mean it's a biological urge to irrational, it just means that based on their upbringing, their values, and their beliefs, they are irrational. So "Gargoyles are, by nature, a protective species," only means that based on the upbringing and life-experiences of most Gargoyles, (such as cultural, religious, and familial values) they take it upon themselves to protect. I think Gargoyle biological urge to protect only goes up to a certain point, perhaps marginally greater than that of a human. But the majority of the drive is culturally, or self-imposed. I think the same applies in any culture where the community is valued over the family unit.
Jimmy
Friday, July 26, 2002 10:24:24 AM
IP: 172.131.116.98

bud-clare> "scientific truth." You mean the kinds of truths that are true only accoding to the prevailing paradigm, meaning that they will change later when paradigms change? ;)

"Gargoyles are by nature a protective species.:"

You can't go wrong with these lines. "By nature" means "by nature." Sorta like "thou shalt not kill." It means don't kill. It's cut and clear, no hidden message, no secret way of reading it.

mooncat> "sound good" you betcha ;).
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Friday, July 26, 2002 09:10:06 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

Gargoyles protecting> I'm going to agree with Airwalker on this one; I don't think it's really biology, either. It's all well and good to say that gargoyles ought to protect others, but... what about humans? Shouldn't we, ideally, protect others? Shouldn't we abandon greed and selfishness for the good of the whole? Shouldn't we raise children for the sake of raising children, and not out of egotism? (e.g. Refusing to adopt because the child wouldn't be "blood," trying to force your child to grow up to be a carbon-copy of yourself, etc...) We, as humans, have ideals to aspire to... how convenient that gargoyles are collectively born to the ideal. Makes life... kind of pointless, actually.
IMO, there is no "Gargoyle Way," there is only the Way... gargoyles just happen, on the whole, to be closer to that way. I'm prepared to chalk it up to good upbringing. (Which, btw, could also explain how clans from all across the world do share that one trait... they _were_ all one clan (more or less), a long time ago.) I'm getting kind of tired now, so I'm going to finish up by saying that I consider the "biological" solution to be a cheat.

Jimmy> "I have a whole two and a half years of being a teenager left thank you very much."
I say the same thing about college students, so add another four years. ;) [People get very confused when I say that I hate college students, since I _am_ a college student. My response to them is :P~~~]

Airwalker> "one for "I'm not answering this at this time" and one for "Not Sure" and a couple for his more short less random smart ass responses"
How do we know that he doesn't have those already? ;)

Aaron> "The movies void the semi-hopeful ending from the series and go for the Shakespearian ending instead. (i.e., everybody *dies*)"
...Everyone died in the series...

matt> "heres what i ask you: what proof or evidence do you have that a gargoyle's urge to protect isn't at least somewhat biological in nature?"
There's no proof either way.

"Greg also said in his Gargoyles: 2198 Proposal that "Fortunatly for the human race, Gargoyles are by nature a protective species." hear that? "by nature", as in a natural urge..."
It's a figure of speech, not an absolute, scientific truth. And you're sounding rather snotty, which is totally unjustified, since you have no more evidence than Airwalker.

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Friday, July 26, 2002 01:31:43 AM
IP: 129.21.11.6

Protection and Culture - It's what and how you protect that is cultural. If you don't drink water you DIE. If you don't protect the castle, you don't keel over into a grave. When the Wyvern clan moved to the clock tower, they were NOT protecting the castle, and they didn't die. If however they stopped breathing the air, they'd be stone cold dead.

I see a gargoyles need to protect like a human's need for sex. Not doing it won't kill you, but it will probably make you cranky. You can choose who or what you protect the way you can choose who or what you have sex with. They way you are brought up and your culture will influence your views on sex, they way a gargoyle's clan culture may influence their views on protection. Sex is a natural, biologically driven instinct in humans, but humans have such a wide range of sexual tastes and mores, it's obvious that sex contributes to culture and culture shapes sexual expression. So the act of protection may be cultural and be different from clan to clan, or even from gargoyle to gargoyle within the same clan.

Sound good?

Mooncat
>^,,^<


Mooncat
Friday, July 26, 2002 12:56:52 AM
IP: 68.102.1.42

Blaise--that's cool you got to work with Su Blu firsthand on voice stuff. I've been to her personal studio twice, but only once with her there. I got to sit in on the voice auditions for Eduardo for EXTREME GHOSTBUSTERS (voiced by Rino Romano, who was also Johnny Rico for TROOPERS). The other time was actually in Greg Weisman's animation class in 2000, where we used it to pretend to audition from GARGOYLES sides. I was one of I think three people who tried out for Demona, and the class thought I made the best Demona, though no way could I come close to Marina Sirtis! :) Voice acting is hard work, indeed. Have fun!
Shan - [shan@dm.net]
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Friday, July 26, 2002 12:14:50 AM
IP: 198.81.16.172

Drinking water comes out of a bilogical imperative for sustanance; it's not culture. As I've mentioned earlier, ti's more of WHAT the gargoyles protect, not that they protect. You can examine most cultures and find a common thread among them; it's only HOW that particular thing is applied.

Protecting is a drive: what and HOW is the culture, i.e. Bushido.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Friday, July 26, 2002 12:08:33 AM
IP: 24.219.165.75

Clones> the clones are a horrible argumen. Their genetic make-up has been tampered with and altered. Thailog especially since he has been genteically egineered. It's best to not use them to prove anything.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Friday, July 26, 2002 12:05:32 AM
IP: 24.219.165.75

MATT - you quoted Goliath, "Gargoyles protect. It is our nature, our purpose. To lose that is to become corrupt, empty, lifeless."
To me that sounds a great deal more like cultural conditioning than biological imperative. Oh, not that Goliath thinks it's cultural conditioning, but that's because he's got a medieval mindset -- prone to thinking that the customs of one's tribe are the laws of nature. Hudson thinks the same way, only more so. Lines like "Gargoyles protect. It is our nature, our purpose" or "A gargoyle can no more stop protecting the castle than breathing the air" are clearly _taught_ -- i.e., cultural doctrine.
A human can no more stop (f'rinstance) drinking water than breathing air, but nobody bothers to say so because nobody has to; it's a genuine biological imperative. Once somebody has to say "this is our nature," it probably isn't. Unless by 'nature' you mean "the way we are," rather than "the way we are born."
Batya "The Toon" Wittenberg
Friday, July 26, 2002 12:04:22 AM
IP: 172.130.180.187

matt -- umm... how do you know that no gargoyles have green hair? I don't remember Greg ever making this statement, and from what we have seen, Gargoyles come in the entire color spectrum, not to mention different body types like the snake body of the Guatamalan gargoyle, the furry type like Leo, cloven hooves instead of talons like Una, etc.

As for Goliath's pronouncements of "Gargoyles protect" that is his personal take. He doesn't know for squat about biological imperatives, only the culture and example he was brought up in. His clan had a formal alliance with the humans of Castle Wyvern, otherwise he might have grown up thinking his purpose in life was to simply protect his clan FROM humans, instead of protecting humans.

I think you are making too big a deal out of a Gargoyle's inclination to protect. It's not that they HAVE to protect a specific thing. They CHOOSE what they want to protect, and that can be good or bad. Goliath's run in with clans other than the one he grew up in was quite eye opening to him. Not all gargoyles have the same culture or the same values.

I do think Gargoyles have a natural inclination to protect something, and they use their Free Will to decide what it is they will protect. One gargoyles idea of protection may be vastly different from another's idea of protection. I do think Demona is acting out of a protective instinct, as much as revenge, in her quest to annihilate humans. She believes humans will destroy gargoyle kind. She isn't altogether wrong on that point either. If I were a gargoyle I might be inclined to follow Demona, because out of sheer species survival, I can all too easily see Humans snuffing out Gargoyles as a species.

As for the Ask Greg function. Taking it away isn't an improvement of any kind. I'd rather have an imperfect system in play, than no system at all.

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncaat
Friday, July 26, 2002 12:00:07 AM
IP: 68.102.1.42

Airwalker> no, the clones are terrible gargoyles to use in the protection argument!! they are not even perfect clones of the Clan. no other gargoyles in the world have green hair (like Brook's clone) or red eyes (like Thailog and Lex's clone) and in their minds they are even more different! they've been totally played with and messed up. Thailog is intelligent, but totally driven by his programming, and the clones can barely speak because their minds have been so distorted. lots of biological urges can be averted by brainwashing and mind tinkering.
the more we debate this the more i see that gargoyles ARE natural protectors. you can't teach someone to protect, you can teach them to fight or whatever, but protection is natural in itself. does a mother learn to want to protect her child or does it come naturally? to me, its the same with gargoyles, they protect. they can be taught how to protect, they can be taught what to protect, but the fact is, they are not true gargoyles if they don't protect something somehow. its what they live for. i quote greg Weisman, "Their (gargoyles) main purpose in life is to safeguard the weak and innocent- both gargoyle and human- from evil and injustice." and Goliath, "Gargoyles protect. It is our nature, our purpose. To lose that is to become corrupt, empty, lifeless." the proof is all over teh series and Greg W's ramblings that gargoyles are born to protect, not taught. they are living out a legacy in a sense, but it is not just a tradition, it is an instinct. they embrace that instinct and make it their purpose for being. just cuz it benefits those outside their species doesn't mean its not natural.

Ask Greg questions> yes, Todd, they seem to be getting worse and more numerous by the day! would it be possible that somehow if you see that the question is an FAQ, story idea, etc, that you could hit a button that sends a reply saying their question has been erased, why its been erased and where they can find their answer? or maybe we can form a board of people that have to clear all questions before they are even submitted to Ask Greg. i know its crazy, but we have to think of something. more stupid questions are being asked a day than Greg answers in a month! its becoming a HUGE problem. desperate times... maybe we should shut Aske Greg down until a solution is found...?
matt
Thursday, July 25, 2002 11:30:11 PM
IP: 207.230.53.2

Re bizarre "Ask Greg" questions: somebody just submitted a question over whether Prince Valiant would have shown up in the "Pendragon" spin-off. Well, the answer to that one's obvious, given that Prince Valiant is a modern-day addition to the Arthurian cycle and not in the public domain (I'm mildly astonished that the person who asked the question didn't stop to consider that).

I'll admit, though, that I've sometimes wondered what Greg Weisman thinks of the "Prince Valiant" comic strip.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, July 25, 2002 09:15:30 PM
IP: 65.56.170.55

Man, it looks like the whole debate on "gargoyle protection" goes back too far and I don't know where to start reading since I'm behind this week on my usual read-up in the CR. I think I'll just sit this one out. (sigh) It's Fair week in Shippensburg, and life's a little hectic around here this week.
Next week will be better.

BTW, I've been playing that Gargoyes-based computer game "Episode I: Rebirth." It's actually quite interesting, with a nice story too. Once I figured out how to unlock castle Wyvern's gate, everything has been fairly easy to figure out. Only trouble is reading the English subtitles, as the voice speaking is in French. Runs in OS X great too!

Later.
Jim R.
Thursday, July 25, 2002 08:36:12 PM
IP: 65.173.70.136

Regarding Demona and her goals: I do believe that "revenge" is the more accurate reason for it. Of course, a crucial factor here is whether Demona knew about the existence of the clans other than Goliath and Co. during the present-day portion of the series. Was she aware of the gargoyles in London, Ishimura, Guatemala, etc., or does she believe that the survivors of the Wyvern Massacre are the last of their kind?

If the latter, then the motivation would definitely have to be revenge. For one thing, if the only gargoyles left are the ones that we met at the beginning (Goliath, Hudson, the trio, Bronx, and Demona) then the species is doomed to extinction anyway, no matter what the humans do. After all, a species with only six males and one female (and with the very low birth rate that gargoyles have of only one birth per female every twenty years) has no long-term hopes for survival. So the gargoyles are doomed anyway, and destroying humanity will only postpone their extinction, not avert it.

Additionally, Demona repeatedly attempts to wipe out Goliath and Co., especially in "City of Stone". If they are the only gargoyles left beside herself, then destroying them is definitely not in the best efforts of the species; in fact, quite the reverse. The irony then is that Demona is herself carrying out the destruction of her race, instead of the humans.

Demona repeatedly talks about "vengeance" anyway, which does strike me as another sign that that's her foremost goal. (In fact, one could argue that the bulk of her talk about ensuring the survival of the gargoyle race is more propaganda, designed to get the few gargoyles left on her side, than anything that means something to her heart).

Does Demona know about the other clans? We've seen no evidence of it. I certainly doubt that she is aware of the Ishimura clan (even Demona's gift for self-deception would have a hard time weathering the discovery of an entire human community living in peace with gargoyles). As to the London clan, since we have no evidence either for or against it, I will not even speculate at this point.

Of course, it's worth pointing this out about Demona's quest: if Demona is justified in attempting to wipe out humanity for the survival of her race, then likewise, the Hunters and Quarrymen should likewise be viewed as justified, since they see gargoyles as a threat to their kind and something that must be destroyed for the sake of humanity's safety and survival. After all, if it's OK for Race A to destroy Race B out of self-preservation, then logically, it should be OK for Race B to destroy Race A out of self-preservation.

(For my own part, I prefer to stick to Goliath's approach of making peace with the humans and recognizing that not all humans are like that - especially since the bulk of the humans actively engaged in hunting and destroying gargoyles aren't "ordinary citizens" but professional "bad guys" - Hakon, Gillecomgain, Duncan, Canmore, the Pack, etc. Judging humanity as a threat to gargoylekind on the basis of a few bad eggs like Hakon and Gillecomgain is like judging gargoylekind as a threat to humanity on the basis of Demona and Thailog).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, July 25, 2002 05:54:32 PM
IP: 67.28.88.74

MATT - You wrote: [ok, you still havn't explained to me or given any ideas as to why the gargoyles around the world are protecting things outside their own interests, esspecially (as in NY and ancient Wyvern)]

In NYC the Manhattan Clan made a conscious decision to protect the city, expanding their existing definition of castle to include the entire island. (Does that also apply to the outer boroughs? I've always wondered about that.) In Ancient Wyvern, deciding to let the Humans build a castle was a dangerous but calculated move to give themselves and their rookery more protection from the various daylight threats. The gains outweighed the costs so they did it because it was in their own interests.

(Also we don't really know how the Humans acted in the early years of the Wyvern Alliance. I can figure that there was a tremendous amount of fear at first but that doesn't mean that they started out being hostile to the Clan. I think that Malcolm was smart enough to at least try and settle the place with Humans who wouldn't be outwardly completely anti-Gargoyle. It would just be the cause of problems. Hostility wouldn't have to come until later when the Humans have a more secure position, different leadership, and have gotten used to the Gargoyles protection.)

As for the other Clans, I don't know enough about their specific situations, specific location, and history to really say why they have are doing whatever they are doing. I can only guess. But I have suggested in earlier posts that at one point in the past there could have been a single Gargoyle Nation similar to what will be redeveloping by the 2198 period. All the surviving clans could have some memory of that and some of that remaining culture hotwired into there own individually developed cultures. (And in some cases circumstances may have led a clan or two to abandon or lose some of this memory. If the London Clan are into nothing but business that could be because of local circumstances that they had to adapt to so they could survive.)

You wrote: [Thailog and the other clones are a whole other story, they're minds were tinkered with and they are not good substance for this debate.]

Why shouldn't they be included in the debate? Physically they are just like any other Gargoyle in the Gargoyles Universe. The only difference between them and every other Gargoyle in that Universe is just in terms of education.

If anything they should be perfect examples for this debate. After all here we have Gargoyles who haven't been raised with this ideal of Protection and at the same time they are perfect physical copies of the existing Protecting Clan that we know. If they have an overwhelming biological urge to protect then why is it that the Gargoyles that haven't been taught to do so aren't being bothered by it? Thailog isn't showing any effects whatsoever of fighting a biological urge. He's not shuddering at the thought of passing over people who need protection. He's not moved by the idea because he hasn't been brought up to follow or even respect it. The other Clones don't show any effects of fighting any biological urge either. In fact considering how little they were programmed with wouldn't they be less inclinded to be able to supress an overwhelming biological urge like Protection? But they don't protect anything; they just follow the ideal that they were taught - Obey Thailog. They don't even suggest the idea to protect at the end of THE RECKONING. They don't even incline themselves towards it subconsciously. Instead Talon has to take them in and educate them. And they'll probably end up protectors because that's what he's doing and that's what he's going to educate them in.

You wrote: [i did not mean to say that they protect their offspring, which, of course they do, but they also protect other gargoyles offspring and the physical rookery itself. this protection easily extends to a territory and all that it encommpasses, as Blaise said.]

But I adjusted my argument for this in my last post. I'm not against the idea of saying that a biological inclination to protect their different definition of family hasn't influenced their culture and let to the rise of a society and people that are dedicated to the Protection Ideal. My problem is taking away their free will and marking everything off as biological instinct. What is the difference between an animal and a sentient being after all? Isn't it in the extent that they are able to rise above overwhelming biology and embrace logic and rational thought? I think that everytime we make the argument that Gargoyles are protecting based simply on the idea that Biology alone is driving them to it we are dismissing their sentience as well as the nobility of making the choice to protect. I can accept that biology is a PART of it. But not that it ALL of it. (I'm not even really sure that its most of it; but some of it is a strong possibility that I can more easily accept.)

You wrote: [Greg also said in his Gargoyles: 2198 Proposal that "Fortunatly for the human race, Gargoyles are by nature a protective species." hear that? "by nature", as in a natural urge...]

"By Nature" can mean a lot of things. Don't mean that they are biologically forced to protect or that some instinct is calling out to them to protect. What it can mean that they are more physically and emotionally inclinded to head in that Protection direction and embrace that Protection philosophy/culture/religion than some of the other races might. Doesn't mean that they don't have a choice and that if they don't protect then they are going against the natural order and fighting an overwhelming urge.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, July 25, 2002 03:56:20 PM
IP: 12.88.92.204

Airwalker> ok, you still havn't explained to me or given any ideas as to why the gargoyles around the world are protecting things outside their own interests, esspecially (as in NY and ancient Wyvern) when their protection is unappreciated and they are generally hated.
i've never said that a biological urge couldn't be subdued. Demona and others have done this to one extent or another, but the vast majority of gargoyles in the world are driven by their urge to protect. Thailog and the other clones are a whole other story, they're minds were tinkered with and they are not good substance for this debate.
and you missunderstood me when i said gargoyles protect their rookeries. i did not mean to say that they protect their offspring, which, of course they do, but they also protect other gargoyles offspring and the physical rookery itself. this protection easily extends to a territory and all that it encommpasses, as Blaise said. for the Mayan Clan thats the forest and its natural wonders, etc.
for the record though, Greg never said that the Xanadu Clan protects the garg beasts from extinction, he only said if it were not for this clan they would be endangered, which is pretty much the same thing, but i wanted to make that clear. and we don't know if the Xanadu Clan protects more than the beasts, they probably do. Greg said they breed them as guard dogs, afterall.
Greg also said in his Gargoyles: 2198 Proposal that "Fortunatly for the human race, Gargoyles are by nature a protective species." hear that? "by nature", as in a natural urge...

oh, and as for the comments on human promiscuity: in mammals we've discovered you can tell promiscuity by the size of the testicles in the male as compared to body size. bigger testicles are present in more promiscuos species, smaller in more monogamous. Chimps are very promiscous, mating with many partners over a life time, they have proportiantly large testes, Gorillas are very monogamous and its common for a female to have only one or perhaps two partners in a life time, their testes are small. humans are somewhere between our two cousins, meaning we are not as promiscuos as a chimp, but not always as monogamous as a gorilla either.
matt
Thursday, July 25, 2002 02:18:19 PM
IP: 207.230.48.115

GREG BISHANSKY - You wrote: [Ah ha, but Demona does indeed protect somethings. She protects herself, and she protects her species. Humanity is the greatest danger to the Gargoyle species, and by wiping them out, Demona guarantees their safety.]

The first hundred years, when she was really alive and not immortal I'm pretty sure that this was the motivation - to protect herself and the Gargoyles who followed her. But after 1057 I think that she's really moved beyond any semblence of protecting anyone and is in it just for pure revenge. That is her main emphasis most of the time after all, on evening the score and making Humanity pay. That was her rational as far back as AWAKENINGS. And HUNTERS MOON has her state outloud that finding that Tablet in Italy was for revenge sake.

The only time that she comes close to mentioning protection is on the disc the Hunters decrypted where she's talking about making the world safe for her daughter which would end up to be a recent development (a sort of unfreezing and redeveloping mother instinct). And even then she talking about fufilling the dream of her life by eliminating humanity and becoming leader of the surviving Gargoyles.

This of course opens up the question - does she know of other Gargoyles besides the Manhattan Clan prior to any conversation with Angela in THE RECKONING? If she's alone then revenge sake is much more likely. If she knows about other clans (like the London Clan) then an old memory of protection could be kicking in. But on the other hand her desire seems to go beyond that even in this other hand case. She wants to be leader and it even appears that she believes that Humanity showing up on the scene robbed Gargoyles of their rightful place of forming a civilization on the planet. If she knows about the London Clan then she might have an idea based on the fact that they are suburbanites and businesspeople, that after Humanity is gone then Gargoyles will have something to work with. This could be getting less and less about protecting anyone and more about settling a score and setting a new stage. Transformations aside she is the one Gargoyle most likely to think in Humans terms of civilization, advancement, and profit. Protection may be swimming up in her head but I doubt that its anything more than a feeble rationalization for her true plans.

You wrote: [And if she must kill Goliath and his clan also to protect her daughter and the rest of the species from certain death, then so be it.]

Maybe there is a deeper reason that she's turned on Goliath so quickly, more than trying to protect her daughter. (To be honest her daughter keeping company with a clan made up of five protective warriors might be a rationalization for her not to get rid of them - first it would anger Angela but second until she can get rid of Humanity what better protection is Angela going to get?)

If Demona is not just trying to get revenge but go for a civilization change where it would be Gargoyles running cities and shops and producing art and so on and so forth then Goliath is being extremely counterproductive. First of all he doesn't want to get rid of the Humans (which upsets her sense for revenge but that would be more emotional than anything else) but second he doesn't want Gargoyles to found their own civilization (ala the Original Planet of the Apes movies, not that thing they had in the theatres a year or two ago). If she knows about London then she has seeds from which to work with. But Goliath with his ideas about continuing a tradition of Protection she feels is useless and dangerous is more trouble than he is worth.

(This opens up an interesting question - If she knows about the London Clan and they know about her then what might they think of her? Una, Griff, and Leo might not like or get along with her but they have the most interaction with Humans - what might members of the London Clan on the isolated estate think of her? That she's a nut case? That she has a point? Or maybe the Humanity subject just didn't come up and they don't really have any feeling on the subject of Demona other than that she's another Gargoyle they can count as part of the population?)

You wrote: [And for those of you who don't think Demona is the hero of the show, you could also say that she's protecting her own delusions, by blaming everyone else except herself for the Wyvern Massacre.]

I don't think that she is the hero of the show. I can see where her motivation comes from - if I lived an immortal life in Christian Europe as a Gargoyle and spent most of that time being hunted and in a generally bad mood plus with all that guilt then I'd probably be as unstable as she is. I do think that she is an extremely interesting character, possibly the most interesting in the show. But a hero? Maybe on New Olympus and in her own head. Otherwise just a dangerous immortal that can't be neutralized by normal means (i.e. killing her) but needs a more creative way to be dealt with. (Something Goliath seems to be unable to understand.)



BLAISE - You wrote: [It seems possible to me that the universal instinct to protect family/home may be stronger in gargoyles, and that their "protecting" culture grew out of that. And then, that said culture could reinforce the instinct, which strengthens the culture, etc..]

I could buy that they might have a slightly stronger instinct than might exist in a human being - after all they don't just protect their own eggs but the eggs of the entire clan so they are doing more than protecting their own biological children; they are protecting all the children of the clan. In those terms I can see a stronger protection instinct than exists in Humans. But I still can't accept the idea that they are being motivated by biology alone, that its overwhelming instinct that drives them to protect countless hostile Humans.

I can accept thought the idea that you've put forward, that basically a slightly expanded protection instinct in Gargoyles (based on a whole clan parent/child relationship rather than an exclusive biological relationship) could have fed into the building of a culture that glorified protection and led to the motivations and beliefs that current Gargoyles have. But I can't accept that Goliath decided and his clan agreed to put their lives at risk to protect millions of hostile Humans just because some instinct was crying out to them to do so. A slightly stronger instinct might be there but the decision and motivation were to me more culturally related and rationally decided on than anything else.

Demona and Thailog might be the best examples here. Thailog was never educated to have any part in the Protection culture of Gargoyles and he doesn't accept it. Demona was educated into it and has rejected it. Now both of them are villains but they have other reasons for that to have happened as well. And they aren't suffering from any biological effects of not protecting that consciously rejecting an overwhelming urge would bring. But on the other hand an instinct might exist - Demona was concerned with the life of her child and might have reacted the same if it had been another of the Avalon Clan as they are all her children. (On the other hand as the most human in thinking of all the Gargoyles she might take biology more seriously than the rest of the Clan would. She has been far removed from the culture and traditions of her people for hundreds of years after all and has been in more contact with Human Culture.)

I'm willing to accept the idea that its a little from column A and a little from column B. That they might have a slightly more expanded (or you could say a slightly different) protection instinct than Humans in that they will place the Clan in the place Humans put a Biological family. So the instinct to protect (like a mother protecting her children) applies to the entire rookery and not just to an individual egg. But that the motivation and decisions to protect beyond that came from their teachings, culture, and experience which we could argue developed and became more likely because of the slightly different way their instinct is applied.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, July 25, 2002 11:03:11 AM
IP: 12.88.90.139

Hi, all.

You know, all this talk about whether the gargoyle's compulsion to protect is biological or not ... I think one could make a pretty good case in the other direction. That a gargoyle's strongest "natural" (what a stupid word) impulses are precisely the opposite, thus causing a necessity for intense cultural conditioning to prevent their impulses from destroying each other and themselves.

I forget who started comparing it to religion, but that's not a bad comparison at all. Humans have a whole lot of ingrained concepts that aren't "natural" at all, but that are (or at some point were) necessary for long-term survival -- and a lot of those concepts can be found in religion, because how better to ingrain a concept that strongly?
Examples? Well, the biggest one I can think of is monogamy, and its related jealousies. Humans are not "naturally" monogamous, as are certain animals like wolves; we don't mate for life. However, almost all human cultures have this concept ingrained of One Woman, One Man (or at least, only one at a time), to the point where in some cultures, finding your partner in bed with someone else is a valid legal defense for killing either or both of them.

The trouble here, as elsewhere, is the tendency to mistake "habitual" for "natural," and "automatic" for "instinctive."

I think it was Kellie Fay who theorized that gargoyles have a tremendously deep-seated instinct to protect _their own_ progeny, at the expense of all others, and that it was as a social defense against this instinct that they developed the cultural concept of "all hatchlings belong to the entire clan."
Batya "The Toon" Wittenberg
Thursday, July 25, 2002 10:17:35 AM
IP: 172.137.29.21

*Gathering 2003 Mascotts*

There was a fecent issue brought about on the new MGC forum about what the two new mascotts looked like. A thurough description was given and now we have three pics for your viewing enjoyment, hopefully more to come later. Anyhow take a moment to click and Gaze upon Death and Madison.

*END*

Revel - [<<---------Click!!]
Thursday, July 25, 2002 12:48:48 AM
IP: 172.170.157.80

Blaise - I'm so jealous!!! Sue Blu, aka the voice actress for Stormer in JEM and the lead good chick in Visionaries, and countless other shows. soooooo mucking jealous. I wanna take that class!

I got her book on voice acting somewhere.

Mooncat
>^,,^<
mooncat
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 11:00:00 PM
IP: 68.102.1.42

****The Room is filled with a deep, majestic, echoing voice, "...Testing, one, two, three." A boisterous laugh resounds throughout the Room, and the once majestic voice takes on the more playful style of Blaise's voice.**** Just a little practice (for what I'll reveal later). First, I've just got to give my thoughts on the "debate of the week(tm)".

GARGOYLES PROTECT...> I'm pretty sure that SOMEWHERE in "Ask Greg," Greg Weisman has said that there is a heavy biological aspect to "Gargoyles protect" as well as a cultural one. I may be wrong, but....
It seems possible to me that the universal instinct to protect family/home may be stronger in gargoyles, and that their "protecting" culture grew out of that. And then, that said culture could reinforce the instinct, which strengthens the culture, etc..
Hmmmm. Maybe I should start on a different track.
We know that gargoyles are communal and territorial. The family, the clan, is the central part of their life, yes, but it seems that all gargoyles choose to protect more than just their family. They protect their territory--their home--the place where their family lives. And they seem to naturally extend that protection to whoever inhabits their home.
What changes from clan to clan, in my eyes, is the meaning of "home." For Goliath and the others, "home" was the castle, until circumstances made that "not [their] home anymore". Then it was the Clocktower, until Goliath realized that that's just where they roost. Manhattan was their home. And the other clans follow this concept as well. For the London clan, home was the shop (and the out-of-town estate, of course). As Una said, "What goes on outside this shop is none of our business." Griff's idea of home was perhaps a bit larger, though. The New Olympus clan could see home as just Mount Thanatos, and nothing else, giving them little reason to leave. The Loch Ness clan's home is the Loch, and they protect it, and extend that protection to the creatures with them. The largest exception to this rule seems to be the Xanadu clan, which "protects" the gargoyle beast from extinction. They are the one's I'd really like to study in this regard.
As for the "darker" exceptions, "home" seems to be a distant concept. Demona is displaced from any home she might have had, and is striving to re-make the whole world in her image (the, to her, "ideal" vision of "home"). As for Thailog, well, it's doubtful that such ideas as "home" and "family" played a large part in his programming. The same with the other clones. Perhaps a large part of the strength in a gargoyle's urge to protect comes from actually having something to protect. The greatest abberation here, comes from Coldsteel. He's devious, duplicitous, lustful, and dangerous. How'd he grow to become this? Still, according to the DARK AGES pitch, even he would help to "save the day" once in a while. Hmmmm.
Well, I've pretty much rambled to the point where I've lost my train of thought. Bottom line: I wouldn't be surprised that the gargoyles' natural instinct to protect their territory, coupled with a (perhaps, concious) decision to extend that protection to other creatures in residence within their territory, would inspire them to use the idea of "gargoyles protect" as the basis for their culture. And that this culture, with it's variations, continues to influence all the clans to this day (some more subtly (sp?) than others.

But here's what my entrance was about....
SUSAN BLU VOICE-CLASS> Well, last night I took my first class with Susan Blu (who voice-directed STARSHIP TROOPERS). And it was a blast! In one night, I was a "gawky rabbit," a big-headed alien super-villain with a withered body, and a 16-year-old main hero.
The best thing though, came when I was telling the group how I found my way to the class, and I mentioned the Gathering of the Gargoyles 2001. Susan brightened up, and said, "I met you there! I thought you looked familiar!!" She had actually remembered the STARSHIP TROOPERS panel ("at which," she laughingly commented,"there were like, FIVE people!"). She herself has expressed frustration that Sony hasn't released the final few episodes.
She is a fun, energetic woman, and the group is great! I can't wait to go back next week!!

That's all I have to say at the moment, so I'll sign off until I have something else to report. Until then, farewell. ****Sure enough, Blaise adopts a "Gary Owens" tone, and announces, "This is Blaise, signing off." The rest is silence.****
Blaise
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 10:40:48 PM
IP: 128.125.236.95

Damn it! won=own
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 10:23:53 PM
IP: 24.219.165.75

Greg B> Well, one could say Demona is protecting her won self-interests.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 10:23:33 PM
IP: 24.219.165.75

Ah ha, but Demona does indeed protect somethings. She protects herself, and she protects her species. Humanity is the greatest danger to the Gargoyle species, and by wiping them out, Demona guarantees their safety. And if she must kill Goliath and his clan also to protect her daughter and the rest of the species from certain death, then so be it.

And for those of you who don't think Demona is the hero of the show, you could also say that she's protecting her own delusions, by blaming everyone else except herself for the Wyvern Massacre.

Who says Demona doesn't protect anything?
Greg Bishansky
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 10:14:55 PM
IP: 216.179.6.21

Pretty quiet day.



MATT - You wrote: [what proof or evidence do you have that a gargoyle's urge to protect isn't at least somewhat biological in nature?]

Your asking me to prove that that protection isn't biological. But I'm asking you to prove that it IS biological. I lean towards the Protection creed being Gargoyle Cultural Heritage so to speak because we have evidence of Gargoyles who don't do it and aren't bothered by any biological need to do it. As an example, we have Thailog and the other Clones, who don't show any biological urge to protect. Thailog shows no inclination to protect at all; and no evidence that he was supressing any urge to do so the multiple times he was trying to murder people. And the Labyrinth Clones don't show any inclination to protect either. In fact their urge was only what they were educated to do - Obey Thailog. They don't get near any form of Protection or protective urge until they are educated into that by Talon.

As another example we don't have Demona chain smoking and chugging cup after cup of coffee because there is the biological urge to protect that she's resisting. (She has other more pressing reasons to do that. :-) )

You wrote: [you don't know enough about the New Olympus, Loch Ness, Xanadu, Korean, or even Labyrinth Clan to say whether they are protectors/warriors or not, but it seems that they most likely are.]

My argument isn't that they aren't protecting anything; its what the origin of the idea of doing all that protection comes from. I don't buy it as a biological inclination on their part. To me it seems that there is enough evidence in the series that there is something more than just biology motivating them to protect, to follow that ideal and lifestyle. I can only guess as to an alternate theory but I think that its possible that in the past, as far back as Atlantis, probably even further there was a common Gargoyle civilization similar to what we might see reappear in G2198. And I think that the Protection ideals of Gargoyles are a legacy of that unified Gargoyle Nation. And that in more recent times, the relative isolation of the various clans led them to more specifically concentrate this legacy towards something. And in some cases we get Clans that have moved beyond that past ideal, that isolation and specific circumstances have moved them away from that past memory. London seems to be a good example of this - they protect their home but everyone does that. They don't seem inclinded to start protecting London and Humans in general. It doesn't mean that they won't take an interest in helping someone if they come across someone needing help; but they won't look for someone needing help like other clans might do.

You wrote: [Greg may have said the NO Clan were isolationists, but that doesn't mean they don't protect the island! look at the Mahattan Clan, for most the series, they were isolationists too, but they certaintly protected as well]

Technically I don't think we can call the Manhattan Clan isolationist. Nobody actually knew that they existed and I think that they could only refered to as isolationist if they are known to exist by the rest of the population and then make the choice to not interact with the rest of the population.

As for the New Olympian Clan, we don't know much about them except that they are extremely isolationist even to the point of not having anything to do with the New Olympians. We don't have evidence that they are protecting or not protecting New Olympus. But I think its more likely they aren't. Otherwise they would have said something when Goliath and Angela showed up. Someone from that Clan would have seen them. (And besides the New Olympians seem to treat Goliath and Angela as much as strangers as they do Elisa even if they are less hostile to them. They seem to act as if they haven't seen or interacted with that many Gargoyles. That was the impression that I also got from what Boreas says to Goliath at Elisa's trial.)

You wrote: [the London Clan is not made of warriors at all, they are simple shopkeepers, but they still protected their home and store, and by the end of MIA they had decided to extend their protectorate beyond their personal property, just as Goliath did in Reawakening, the London Clan still were not trained warriors, but they had decided to protect their community.]

Actually can we really say that they had decided to establish a protectorate over London at the end of MIA? We know that Griff continues to go out and protect the people and that in response to the years of guilt the other two decide to accompany him at the end of the episode. We also know that Leo and Una pledge to have a new beginning but by PENDRAGON we have Griff out on his own again. But I think that its more likely that they have more of a change in attitude than in action - that they decide to get involved more than they were doing but that they weren't going to go patrolling around looking for all sorts of danger. They do have a business to run and might not have the time to waste doing the job for the police.

On top of all this we've only seen three Gargoyles from that Clan; the rest of them spend their time in the countryside and don't seem to have an interest in protecting London. Otherwise they would have been doing so by now. Nobody is stopping them after all. But we don't have that.

You wrote: [what evidence do you have that the Mayan Clan were warriors? they protect their home and forest.]

They struck me as having been one of the Clans that maintained a Warrior Tradition from ancient times. Also engaging in pitch combat with armed forces constantly and winning most of the time helps define the fighter as a warrior to me. :-)

You wrote: [this probably evolved from their need to protect a rookery for ten years or so and their need for a social group, a clan. without clans and rookeries gargoyles would probably have become extinct, and without an urge to protect, clans and rookeries would've been destroyed.]

The urge to protect a rookery (i.e. their children) is a natural instinct literally that of a parent protecting his or her young. But I don't see how an obvious biological instinct like that is going to translate into a biological instinct to want to protect hostile strangers. I could see how the desire to protect a rookery would lead Gargoyles to develop a culture of protecting the strangers in the area to help guarantee that they won't attack the rookery in exchange. But that decision wouldn't be a biological outgrowth or help lead to new biological development - it would be more politics than anything else.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 07:20:11 PM
IP: 12.88.121.11

Re the Avalon clan becoming Oberon's honor guard: I agree with Airwalker that it's more likely to be a ceremonial function than anything else; after all, anything capable of posing a serious threat to Oberon (a guy who can swell up to the size of the Eyrie Building, magically send an entire city to sleep, animate statues, and control the weather) would probably be able to wipe out a whole clan of gargoyles without much of an effort. (Of course, what the clan could be useful for would be dealing with relatively small-scale enemies who happen to have a lot of cold iron along with them). But I think that it does have some alternate uses.

The big one is that it helps ensure more peaceful relations between the Avalon clan and the Third Race. After all, by being Oberon's honor guard, the gargoyles of Avalon are now linked to his authority. Any attack upon them by a disgruntled fay who dislikes the presence of gargoyles in Avalon is, obliquely, an attack upon Oberon. So the returning "Oberati" will be less likely to respond with hostility towards the gargoyles, knowing that any attempt to drive them off the island will be speedily punished by Oberon. The Avalon gargoyles, as Oberon's honor guard, have been given a place in the structure of Avalonian society. Even the Weird Sisters will have to tread cautiously now, since they can't afford to displease Oberon. So it's a good move on Oberon's part, I'd say.

(Honor guards are more ceremonial than anything else, anyway).

One side thought on the United Nations Gargoyle Minority Protection Act and gargoyles: in some cases, it could actually make gargoyles less popular with certain humans. There are, after all, those people out there who see the UN as part of a global conspiracy to enslave the world, often linked to Satan himself; no doubt, the moment that they heard about the UNGMPA, they'd see it as further proof of it, with an attitude of "now they're recognizing those demonic monsters in order to get everyone to accept them and so move them one step closer to universal devil-worship". The conspiracy theorists would have a field-day with that event.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 06:50:16 PM
IP: 65.56.168.47

Airwalker> i see your points, but i still don't buy it. heres what i ask you: what proof or evidence do you have that a gargoyle's urge to protect isn't at least somewhat biological in nature? you say all the gargs who protect are warriors so they are going to protect as a matter of duty, but i think you have it backwards: they don't protect because they are warriors, they are warriors because they protect.
you don't know enough about the New Olympus, Loch Ness, Xanadu, Korean, or even Labyrinth Clan to say whether they are protectors/warriors or not, but it seems that they most likely are. Loch Ness protects the monsters, Xanadu protects the beast, Labyrinth protects the homeless, Korean protects Pukhan, and New Olympus protects Mt Thanatos, if not the whole island. Greg may have said the NO Clan were isolationists, but that doesn't mean they don't protect the island! look at the Mahattan Clan, for most the series, they were isolationists too, but they certaintly protected as well... the London Clan is not made of warriorsat all, they are simple shopkeepers, but they still protected their home and store, and by the end of MIA they had decided to extend their protectorate beyond their personal property, just as Goliath did in Reawakening, the London Clan still were not trained warriors, but they had decided to protect their community. and what evidence do you have that the Mayan Clan were warriors? they protect their home and forest. hell, Greenpeace does that, but we don't consider Greenpeace warriors. finally, Greg has recently reveiled that even ancient Atlantean gargoyles were natural protectors, so much so that the Atlanteans built them an artifact of protection, the Praying Gargoyle, Greg once said that the Praying Gargoyle was designed to "protect the protectors".
IMHO, Gargoyles are natural protectors, not just of themselves and their property, but of their land and community as well. this probably evolved from their need to protect a rookery for ten years or so and their need for a social group, a clan. without clans and rookeries gargoyles would probably have become extinct, and without an urge to protect, clans and rookeries would've been destroyed. over time gargoyles began to take whole areas under their protection, and when humans entered the scene, they struck deals to provide round the clock protection to their territories (unfortunatly, humans would take advantage of the gargs and eventually destroy them) the gargoyle protection survived on however and all the clans of the modern day still protect (in one way or another) more tahn themselves.
matt
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 04:24:29 PM
IP: 207.230.53.20

TODD - You wrote: [How will they accomodate gargoyles into the human legal system? Especially given that there are clans out there actually living in human cities.]

I always wondered less about the legal issues and more about the political ones. How to deal with the issue of territory and sovereignty? Beyond recognizing that Gargoyles are sentient and thus entitled not to be hunted down and killed like animals, the G2198 outline says that they are being recognized as a nation as well. How do we deal with that? Do the various Clans get control of the territory they happen to live in? Would England and the US be willing to give up huge chunks of London and New York to another nation? Would they be like Indian tribes only on a global scale? How would they be represented in international forums? One member and one vote? Or one for each Clan? Would they even get a vote or would each clan be forced to be represented by the individual nation that they happen to be living in?

(And the legal issue is sort of tied up in this - if the Gargoyles are independent then who tries them if there is trouble? A Gargoyle clan/leadership judgement or a Human court? Where does Gargoyle sovereignty end and Human control begin? And just because the UN put out a "GARGOYLE MINORITY PROTECTION ACT" who says that every nation is going to ratify it and that some, even without Gargoyles, might not stay hostile to them? And that the nations that do ratify it might not add amendments to it to limit sovereignty of the various Clans in ways that the clans might not want or might not agree to?)

While I can see the Gargoyles Universe future being more technologically advanced and slightly more enlightened, I just can't see a utopia in 200 years. India's still going to be fighting Pakistan over Kashmir, there will probably be some form of Arab-Israeli conflict, New Olympus is still going to be armed to the teeth, nations are still going to consider their interests and their borders to be important, and nationalism is still going to be a factor. There might be more development and a bit more of the wealth distributed around the world but its not going to be TGS. (That was one of the biggest problems I had with that - everything got resolved in 200 years into utopia which I find to be highly unrealistic. Even with a massive shakeup induced by some major event (A world war, a spell, something) I don't see things being that great in 200 years. Not that I think that its going to be worse. I just think that there will be some improvements, a few conflicts resolved, a few new ones started, and the world still struggling to keep going, and people still trying to live well.



JIMMY - You wrote: [I've always thought the Gargoyle urge to protect was more of a religious type devotion than anything else.]

I don't think that its an out and out form of Gargoyle religion. Its just that during this debate it seems to clarify in my mind that the entire "Gargoyles Protect" ideal and the way Gargoyles react to it seems similar to religion and religious devotion. I don't think they actually take it as a religious ideal; just that once they adopt it, they tend to treat it the same way a religious person would act towards religion - with some work, with some faith, with some hope, and with some idea that it might be the ideal solution.

You wrote: [If we ever got to see Brooklyn's kids who had spent more time fighting to survive than adopting a protectorte, we could get a better idea of a Gargoyle's nature, since Nashville might not have had the idea of protection drilled into his head.]

I think that Nashiville would have had some feeling towards protecting as I don't think that Brooklyn would have given up on it during his travels and that his son would follow his example. Although I don't know if the protection creed would be as strong with him as it would be among the rest of the clan - he might be more willing to cut corners and be less interested than the others as he might have had to do with his mother and father while travelling. It would be interesting to see. (Although on the other hand I wonder if Nasheville might not be more interesting in protecting once his family returns to NYC - after all how else is a kid who was raised during an adventure going to get around the boredom of castle living? It might be his only outlet to hold onto the adrenaline rush of his old life; so I'm not really sure which way he would react. I do think though that he might be more willing to quesiton things as they come up - the clear truth usually comes from kids after all.)

What I also wonder about is how Brooklyn's wife is going to react to this Protection idea. She's got to be coming in from a time of different values and different ideas. I'm curious how she would take all these ideas that the Manhattan Clan keep following; and I also wonder how the Clan would react to her. (God, this is just making me wish more and more that we can get a few of the spinoffs done somewhere - if not on TV then in print. I'm just curious to see the stories.)



IRC GOLIATH - You wrote: [What I would personally like to see (if the DVDs made it that far and I got off the crack pipe ;D) is a special featurette on one of the DVDs containing Avalon episodes pertaining to Gargoyles around the world, including many of the alternate audio tracks, merchandise, and PR material used.]

I'd love to see that too. Actually what I'd really like to see on GARGOYLES DVDs if they manage to get into putting out the entire series is plans and sketches specifically made concerning the spin-offs as sort of a prelude to actually getting some of those spin-offs made :-) (And if they don't have that kind of material to use, well then they'll just have to develop it, won't they? :-) )



GABRIEL - You wrote: [I think politicians might lean towards, after a good argument, towards granting them "tribal" citizenship.]

That might be the way that they end up going. But even tribes have their own territory. I just can't see a chunk of NY being made into the sovereign territory of another nation. Traffic is a problem now; imagine if we had to have a passport/border check in the middle of town - there'd be a revolution :-) Seriously I think that they might end up have a dual layered sovereignty in cities - where in exchange for giving up a territorial claim, the Gargoyles receive full autonomy in the city and would only be subject to Gargoyle laws rather than human and/or city laws. Gargoyle leadership and law would apply to them and whatever passes for law would go for Humans. And in places where these two might overlap Gargoyle Law would apply over the Human Law for Gargoyles unless the right is waived.



MATT - You wrote: [in fact, theres evidence in the series for this: the Avalon Clan were not raised to be protectors or warriors. they were raised by humans in roughly human fashion, and yet when they are attacked they protect themselves and their family. furthermore, they eventually come to protect all of Avalon and become Oberon's Honor Guard!]

I never in the entire debate denied that they weren't like every other being in existance and wouldn't have the instinct to protect themselves. I did keep refering to an example of a mother protecting her young. I never said that they wouldn't hesitate to protect themselves or their clan or their interests. Everything in existance does that. And in AVALON that is what the Avalon Clan was doing - they were trying not to get killed.

As for becoming Oberon's honor guard, he just appointed them like that without actually asking if they wanted the job. It does give them a purpose although are they really protecting anything? Goliath could barely deal with Puck and lost outright to Oberon - the Fey are way too powerful and don't need protection. The Avalon Clan is basically window dressing and the position is a sincerely given but hollow job. Just something to fill the nighttime hours with. And not exactly something that they were jumping at the chance to get. They mainly asked to stay in what had become their home and Oberon agreed to not only allow them to become tenants but to find them work as well. :-) If he hadn't brought it up would they have even have come up with the idea to do anything like that - become guards for his castle? I don't think so.

You wrote: [most protect, ity is theiur nature]

But again we've only seen mostly warriors. The Clans that aren't warriors aren't rushing out to protect. For example:

The Avalon Clan wasn't protecting anything all those years and even after getting an appointment from Oberon aren't really protecting anything. (Its a mystical island maybe half a dozen outsiders can get to and is filled with insanely powerful beings who can't die; let's me realistic - the only thing the Avalon Clan can be protecting is themselves from Fey practical jokes and temper tantrums.)

The London Clan wasn't exactly patrolling London - just Griff and he kept getting worried looks from the other members of his Trio who ended up helping him in the end because of guilt issues. The rest of the Clan is living quite nicely in the suburbs and probably not worried about the humans and their crime rates in the city (except perhaps in how it effects their store and thus their income).

And the New Olympian Clan doesn't even spend time with the New Olympians. What could they be doing? If they are protecting then what is that they protect? (I don't think they are protecting anything other than themselves.)

You wrote: [but if so inclined they can deny these natural tendencies, as Demona has (though Demona is still protective, just look at her actions in "The Reckoning", shes willing to make her love her enemy, lose her new clan, ally with her sworn enemies and risk her life to PROTECT her daughter.]

Demona was protecting her child which I haven't denied a Gargoyle will do. All mothers have the instinct to protect their children. But she didn't really have a clan in the Clones to begin with as they were all programmed to just obey Thailog. Not obey Thailog and Demona. And she didn't really have a love in Thailog. She might have thought that she loved him but he didn't love her. And I'm pretty sure that she wouldn't have been so quick to hook up with him if he hadn't looked exactly like Goliath but without the moral baggage. :-) They're relationship was over when it began as he was planning to get rid of her from the beginning. The last straw for her was Delilah - essentially Elisa's head on Demona's body. The ultimate insult to her. And she didn't exactly ally with the Manhattan Clan - she just freed them to help her daughter. The rest of the battle was her trying to kill Thailog in a blind rage.

You wrote: [maybe thats why Goliath said there was hope for her, she still has that urge to protect more than herself.]

He said that she might have hope because she was able to show signs of love, that she was ready to fight to protect her child even after being rejected by her. She might have hope because there was an ounce of goodness left in that action when it would have been easier for her to stand back and do nothing.

And as for protecting something other than herself, does an immortal really need to worry about protecting herself?
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 10:41:28 AM
IP: 12.88.81.139

Airwalker> you asked if a gargoyle raised without the whole protection thing being drilled in would still have an urge to protect, and i say most definetly. in fact, theres evidence in the series for this: the Avalon Clan were not raised to be protectors or warriors. they were raised by humans in roughly human fashion, and yet when they are attacked they protect themselves and their family. furthermore, they eventually come to protect all of Avalon and become Oberon's Honor Guard!

sure a gargoyle could choose not to protect. i was born with a sex drive, but taht doesn't mean i HAVE to act on it. i could be celibate my whole life, but we all are born with some desire for sex. thats a natural thing. but many people CHOOSE not to act on it, though the majority do. just as in gargoyles: most protect, ity is theiur nature, but if so inclined they can deny these natural tendencies, as Demona has (though Demona is still protective, just look at her actions in "The Reckoning", shes willing to make her love her enemy, lose her new clan, ally with her sworn enemies and risk her life to PROTECT her daughter. maybe thats why Goliath said there was hope for her, she still has that urge to protect more than herself.)
matt
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 02:42:38 AM
IP: 207.230.48.34

Todd> Oi! That's a tough question. Not many politicains will be keen on getting Gargoyles their rights. For one, they will have to align themselves with a country. Unless, however, they treat teh Gargoyles like indengenous tribes. Then they will, hopefully, be allowed to live on their own terms. I think politicians might lean towards, after a good argument, towards granting them "tribal" citizenship.

Man, oh man, that's still ify though. Gah!

PEACE!
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Tuesday, July 23, 2002 10:49:40 PM
IP: 24.219.165.75

Airwalker wrote:
<<Is there a French dub?>>
I don't know. I'm sure Wingless or one of the Can Clan might know :D

<<And from other Disney DVD's have we seen them include a French dub?>>
Yes. At least 50% of the DVDs released by Disney (including Touchstone, Buena Vista, etc) have a French track and maybe 25% have a Spanish track (and most of those Spanish tracks are included with a French track, there are very few DVDs that have a Spanish exclusive alternate track). However, statistically their older releases are the ones that have the Spanish track and their newer releases are the ones that only have a French track. It could be possible they did not have a Spanish track available when the DVD was in production because I'm guessing the French track is already created for the Quebec theatrical release. (I know it doesn't seem like a big market but many of my Canadian friends have told me Quebec takes their French speaking VERY seriously. They even had Nintendo in a lawsuit at one point because there was not a French version of Pokémon releases in Canada.) But since there's already a Gargoyles Spanish track available, the DVD could very well include it. What I would personally like to see (if the DVDs made it that far and I got off the crack pipe ;D) is a special featurette on one of the DVDs containing Avalon episodes pertaining to Gargoyles around the world, including many of the alternate audio tracks, merchandise, and PR material used. :D
IRC Goliath - [irc_goliath@yahoo.com]
"Remember me, Alex?"
Tuesday, July 23, 2002 08:19:17 PM
IP: 207.126.67.35

Just a note that I've set up my Live Journal page

I'll be doing my Gathering Journal on the Live Journal, bits and pieces when I can find the time.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/mooncatx/

ciao
MC
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Tuesday, July 23, 2002 07:33:35 PM
IP: 68.102.1.42

Protection> I've always thought the Gargoyle urge to protect was more of a religious type devotion than anything else. In "Protection" when Broadway explains a protection racket to Goliath he is enraged and says: "AND THEY CALL THIS PROTECTION!!" Goliath clearly has a certain reverence (almost religiously) for the concept of protecting. There probably is a slight biological urge to protect among Gargoyles, that is existent in all living things, but Gargoyles have elevated the concept. Most of the Gargoyle clans we have seen seem to have the same reverance for protection, but that is probably because of their circumstances. All the clans once co-existed with humans. They had an arrangement, Humans protect them during the day, Gargoyles protect during the night. Naturally, over time, the concept of protection is going to grow to become a more and more important part of their lives since, culturally, they have been saturated by it. Their ancestors were all protectors, so Gargyles would naturally begin to latch on with a certain reverence for the concept of protection, thereby resulting in a cultural, and religious urge to protect that is so strong that it seems like the Gargoyles only purpose.
If we ever got to see Brooklyn's kids who had spent more time fighting to survive than adopting a protectorte, we could get a better idea of a Gargoyle's nature, since Nashville might not have had the idea of protection drilled into his head.

Jimmy
Tuesday, July 23, 2002 07:18:59 PM
IP: 172.140.133.149

Re Gargoyle culture: Greg Weisman mentioned once that there are gargoyles who do have interest in the arts and sciences - although they see themselves as gargoyles who are interested in such matters rather than defining themselves by their pursuits (thus, Lexington would view himself as a gargoyle who just happens to be interested in science and technology, rather than a gargoyle scientist).

Actually, what intrigues me most about "Gargoyles 2198" is more the gargoyle-human interactions, based on this factor: humans have finally come to understand that they're sharing their world with a sentient race other than themselves, one that's a distant cousin of them from the biological standpoint. (Given that gargoyles turn to stone in the daytime, lay eggs, etc., they clearly can't be that closely related to humans). How will they accomodate gargoyles into the human legal system? Especially given that there are clans out there actually living in human cities.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 23, 2002 06:45:55 PM
IP: 65.57.57.250

Airwalker> when I was reffering to the split, I meant he split that hapened among the Wyvern clan before the massacre. I jsut assumed it was the Loch Ness clan (and we know what happens when someone assumes. it makes an ASS out of U and ME--I love that).

*stomach grumbles* mmm foooood.

PEACE!...and phenomenology ;)
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Tuesday, July 23, 2002 04:46:44 PM
IP: 129.120.35.51

GABRIEL - You wrote: [I'll put in my last two cents on the debate.]

Me too. We're not agreeing but still it's an interesting debate.

You wrote: [Goliath did know of other clans. He would have had to have known about the Loch Ness clan since they were split form his clan.]

I checked ASKGREG and I couldn't find anything about the Loch Ness Clan having been a splitoff clan of Goliath's Wyvern Clan. As far as I can see they were a seperate clan that managed to survive up to present times. You might be thinking of the reestablished Wyvern Clan that will come into existance by 2198.

As for if Goliath knew of other clans, while looking up info on the Loch Ness Clan I did come across Greg mentioning that he had plans for other Scottish Clans that no longer exist to occasionally come into contact. So you are right in saying that Goliath knew of other clans. But I don't think it was anything major like he found out about on the World Tour; it seems more likely that he only knew of another clan or two in the area of Scotland and maybe England. Communications have to be taken into effect here.

You wrote: [And he knew of the existence of other clans around the world, else he wouldn't have told Elisa about how Gargoyles once thrived.]

All he told Elisa was that at one point there were Gargoyle Clans all over the world. That doesn't mean that he knew about all of them or had contact with all of them. Just that he knew that at one point in Gargoyle history they were numerous and all over the world.

You wrote: [Protectiong instinct does not take away the fact that they protect. Rather it shows them as uniqe, a more selfless race of sentient, thinking beings.]

My problem in this debate isn't over nature vs nurture which can be seen as the final question in it. Its more that I'm looking at it as a debate of free will vs predestination. I don't believe that everything in life is either nature or nurture. It can be equal parts of both. But if we accept that they have an overwhelming instinct to protect then are they really making the choice to protect and not just rationalizing a way to fufill an overwhelming biological urge?

I think that you could argue successfully that they are physically inclinded to be nocternal protectors for a variety of reasons and that they tend to lean towards protection "professions" for that reason.

But I don't think that they are being forced by biology or instinct to protect; they are instead choosing because the culture/religion/background they have teaches them that is how they should react and this is the "proper" way for a Gargoyle. It could be though that the culture that teaches them this developed the way it did in no small part due to Gargoyle biology.

But a biological influence that develops a culture of protection is different from an overwhelming personal instinct that forces Gargoyles into an almost suicidal type of life (especially when you consider who they protect - usually tons of ungrateful people).

I'd be interested in seeing the London and New Olympian Clans and how they might react to the idea of protection as Goliath sees it. I'd be interested to see Delilah's reaction to it as she seems to have been the only clone who would have been built with a more developed personality (or at least with a greater working knowledge to build from). Would she just accept it because her new master tells her too? Or would she question it and wonder why the hell they are going through all the trouble for? And would she choose to protect due to an "instinct" which seems to be absent in any Gargoyle raised or living without the "Gargoyles Protect" upbringing or would she choose to do so herself for an honest, personal, coherient reason?

You wrote: [Do gargoyles ever see the necessity or ever have the desire to contribute original thought or art (either pictoral or literary)?]

We haven't actually ever come across for a long period of time a completely untouched clan. Guatemala was devastated and the survivors were busy. In London we didn't actually see the clan, just the trio who happen to commute to work for a living :-) And in Ishimura there wasn't enough time to see if they had a culture - they were too busy trying not to become prisoners in the Japanese Disneyworld :-)

I think that G2198 might have answered this question to a much greater extent. I do think that Gargoyles do produce a culture when they aren't spending all their time being hunted and having to just survive. We just haven't come to that point yet. (And with the clans that have reached that peaceful point, we just haven't seen enough of.)



IRC GOLIATH - You wrote: [At they very least I expect they would include a French language track for the people of Qubec]

Is there a French dub? And from other Disney DVD's have we seen them include a French dub? I figure that they would include a Spanish dub because there is one available and they tend to advertise indirectly that it exists at the very beginning of every episode they show. (And they've been doing it since at least the second time it showed in syndication.) So it seems to be a more likely addition to me.

You wrote: [Like Japanese and German]

I would love to hear the Japanese dub for GARGOYLES! I tend to watch way too much anime and it would interesting to see how the characters came out in Japanese. Is there a Japanese dub?



AARON - You wrote: [For the love of your sanity, watch the series first, and if you liked it, *don't watch the movies!!!*]

My anime club screamed this out at me in unison when I brought it up once. :-) I heard that they didn't end up well and that the director was even looking to upset the fans for compaining so much about the original ending of the series. (Wasn't he arrested for drug abuse around the time the second movie came out?)

When I get a series I tend to get all of it so I'll will probably get the movies at one point. But that's the best thing about seperate movie discs - you can imagine that they don't exist or are alternate universe stories. Now I'm a little curious as to why the hell they are so horrible. :-)

You wrote: [that's why the American release date keeps getting pushed back.]

Actually the release date keeps getting pushed back because the company that got the license for the movies isn't able to keep even one of their release dates for everything they have or want to release across the board. I'm still waiting for them to put GUNBUSTER on DVD - they announced that it would be coming out this year, way back in 2000. Now they've said sometime in early 2003 which means 2007, maybe.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, July 23, 2002 04:24:28 PM
IP: 12.88.93.50

Airwalker> <<I figure that I'll wait until all of the series (meaning the movies) gets released. Since that's coming around by the end of the year, it'll probably be that long until I get around to seeing it.>> For the love of your sanity, watch the series first, and if you liked it, *don't watch the movies!!!* The movies void the semi-hopeful ending from the series and go for the Shakespearian ending instead. (i.e., everybody *dies*) The movies killed Eva as a property in Japan, and that's why the American release date keeps getting pushed back.

Spacebabie> <<If I could I'll give you my new inch.>> Awww. Thanks. <<I gotta finish, I'm still on the third disk>> Depends. Have you seen Eva yet? <<NEXT did have the best comedy.>> NEXT had Martina.

Gabrial> <<People can deny their sex drive and choose not to have sex; they're not going to crumble and implode>> Well, that's a matter of opinion... ;)


Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Tuesday, July 23, 2002 02:43:25 PM
IP: 209.33.140.98

Airwalker wrote
<<there is also the fact that they were pretty good about releasing unedited material>>
This is true, especially with their DVD releases. Infact, 9 times out of 10 they add more, either through special features or including it back into the movie/show. With Greg working on it, I'm sure Awakenings will remain uncut. But only time will tell and it doesn't do us any good to worry about it now (a general us, not directed at you Airwalker) because we've still got a year.

<<What I'm really hoping is that they include the Spanish track with the DVD.>>
At they very least I expect they would include a French language track for the people of Qubec (Canada is included in Region 1 encoding so this is why you see a French language track on almost every Region 1 DVD... anime being an exception, of course). But it would be interesting to hear the various tracks Gargoyles has been tranlated to. Like Japanese and German (although Duncan and Guan tell me the German dub is HORRID :D)
IRC Goliath - [irc_goliath@yahoo.com]
Narokath, Redgormor, Mantarok
Tuesday, July 23, 2002 01:53:53 PM
IP: 207.126.67.35

Airwalker>> I'll put in my last two cents on the debate.

Goliath did know of other clans. He would have had to have known about the Loch Ness clan since they were split form his clan. And he knew of the existence of other clans around the world, else he wouldn't have told Elisa about how Gargoyles once thrived.

Protectiong instinct does not take away the fact that they protect. Rather it shows them as uniqe, a more selfless race of sentient, thinking beings. They can choose to deny this instinct if they show wish; it is not a matter of having no choice. People can deny their sex drive and choose not to have sex; they're not going to crumble and implode, they just reject that part of their nature.

Their drive to protect is not on the same level as a human protecting its child. They could possibly see the entire human race as weak and needing protection (which I don't blame them for 8p).

I do see what you are saying: gargs are constantly told they protect and that's what they know; humans, too, are told that success is what we need to accomplish. I believe both have an biologically-imbued grounding for both reasonings.

Following this instinct does not prohibit them from other pursuits. If the massacre had never happened, and the viking problem was dealt with, then there would have been time for recreational pursuits. Now, however, Goliath made Manhatten the castle, so a lot of their time does get eaten up by protecting. And I do have an issue with this:

Do gargoyles ever see the necessity or ever have the desire to contribute original thought or art (either pictoral or literary)? If the answer is no, then I think that is a travesty.

Anyways, I am rambling. Basically: unique biological drive that most choose to follow.

*deposits two cents*
PEACE!
Gabriel "gagoyle"
Tuesday, July 23, 2002 09:51:27 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

*steps in*

ANNOUNCEMENT:

Descriptions of the Mascots for the Gathering 2003 are now up at the MGC board, under the last section, "Gargoyles", in the "Gathering 2003" link.

The site addy is:
http://pub39.ezboard.com/bmgc32513

*Gone*
Lynati - [Lynati_1@hotmail.com]
Tuesday, July 23, 2002 12:30:40 AM
IP: 141.156.220.92

JIM R - You wrote: [I was worried for a minute when I thought that Disney DVD may edit and clip parts of the episode(s) they put on DVD next year.]

I wondered about this too but I'm not that worried anymore. Besides having Greg around to influence and suggest (which is the major reason that I'm not worried about it anymore), there is also the fact that they were pretty good about releasing unedited material - the first Season VHS of everything after AWAKENINGS isn't edited. (And I'm not counting the movie release of AWAKENINGS as an edit since they didn't release it with the intention to have an edited version of the episodes put out - they just happened to have that version available to release faster than the individual episodes.)

What I'm really hoping is that they include the Spanish track with the DVD. I've been watching the series in Spanish on Toon Disney recently and its a good dub. A bit funny to watch at some points (I have to see PROTECTION dubbed!) but something that would make a worthwhile addition to a DVD release.



TODD - You wrote: [We could add Leo and Una to the list; they turn their back on protecting the human community in London - and wind up kidnapping Goliath's friends.]

Actually they weren't protecting London to begin with and they happened to be very pleasant under that non-protection circumstances the real first time Goliath met them. The kidnapping that they engage in had very little to do with the matter of if they had been in the protection business or not. They probably would have done it anyway even if they were conducting nightly patrols around the city when Goliath showed up in the present.

(And do we really know if they stayed consistant after the end of MIA? Do they go off to protect the entire city or just stick to protecting the neighborhood or do they go back into hiding slightly so as to minimize any damage they might have done by letting themselves be seen? After all they have a public address that police can be summoned to and having one of them ask for Leo or Una to take off their "mask" and head downtown would bring extreme heaps of trouble on the clan.

I really wonder if after Griff showed up if they made a major change in how they operated. They might be more inclinded to get involved if something happens outside the shop but were they going out into the city to do something? After all it could speak volumes that Griff was alone when he found Arthur.)



GABRIEL - You wrote: [Protecting is the Gargoyles' nature. That's what they have always known. That's why almost every clan we encounter is protecting something or have decided to protect something other than themselves. It is their instinct.]

But if its all they've ever known, then why write it up to instinct and not upbringing? We all accept that it is a major part of their motivation in most cases, we're just debating on what the exact origin of that motivation is. If all they've ever know is to protect, does that mean that all the protection they are doing is instinct or more likely that this is what has always been taught to them and thus accepted by them as the norm?

You wrote: [The first mistake is thinking the Manhattan clan would be running a shop. Goliath is not interested in that and he would already be erring in running a shop for profit.]

But that wasn't my point. What I meant was that since Goliath is a tenth century warrior who spent his life up to that point as the defender of a castle and its general population, it makes sense that he would seek to apply what he knows towards the modern world. And that if he had not been a warrior, had instead been a shopkeeper that he would not have taken the same approach towards protection that he did end up taking in the modern world.

You wrote: [Yes, they do in fact make the choice; however, the instinct to protect is, arguably, biologically imbued in them.]

Technically every being has a desire to protect; like a said a few posts ago (already in last week archive) as an example a mother will fight to protect her children. So in that sense Gargoyles do have an instinct to protect. But are they driven to go out of their way towards protecting an often hostile population simply by instinct, by biology? They make a choice and if they chose differently then life wouldn't become unbearable for them; they wouldn't get nervous twitches or start pacing from not being able to stop protect. I don't think that instinct is a good explination for what they do and what they choose. It robs the characters of not only a bit of free will but it makes their efforts less noble, less heroic than they are. As I see it they are driven by upbringing and belief to protect and if they are only doing it because biology is forcing them and they just happen to be surrendering to an uncontrollable, even suicidal urge then it takes away something from them.

Its a unique culture idea that was developed with them - protect, even when its not important or personal to you, even when it doesn't matter to you that much. Its familier and alien at the same time - just as a Gargoyle on the earth in that Universe would be. Writing it off as being just instinct that they are following and that they are just agreeing to go with the vibe that they are getting takes away from what they are doing.

You wrote: [Gargoyles have the urge and instinct to protect, and they do, in fact, choose to follow it because it is overwhelming.]

But if it is overwhelming then are they really choosing to follow it? Sentient choice ultimately means that you may have to go against instinct.

If instinct is all that is moving them to do this and they just are finding ways to rationalize that sometimes suicidal instinct then arguments you get from Margot Yale and the Quarrymen end up justified and making sense =

They are just higher up the foodchain dogs that aren't needed in the modern world where man can take care of himself; they are just animals following instinct and causing trouble by doing so; why not lock them up to keep everyone safe? They obviously can't choose to do so themselves since they are throwing themselves into almost a suicidal position due to uncontrollable instinct. Maybe they have to be preserved almost like Panda's to keep themselves safe from themselves.

You wrote: [But it is a hint that he had been denying a part of his nature for the first season. Goliath pretty much sums it up at the end of "Reawakening" in Demona's confrontation with him and Coldstone: "Gargoyles protect; it is our nature, our purpose. To lose that is to become corrupt, empty, lifeless."]

What you see as him hinting that he realizes that he has forsaken his nature in most of the first season, I see as him knowing and rather stating that he lost most of his direction in the first season.

"Gargoyles protect; it is our nature, our purpose. To lose that is to become corrupt, empty, lifeless."

Gargoyles protect - that is what Gargoyles have been doing in his perspective his entire life. But up to that point how many other clans has he seen that might not have protected? He's a tenth century Gargoyle. Let's not forget he's not as well informed and well travelled as a 20th century person or as he will become later in the series. For all he knows his clan were the only Gargoyles in the world in Medeival times and in the present. So this is a true statement from his perspective - Gargoyles protect because every Gargoyle he has ever know has protected. But can we apply his statement to an entire race?

On top of that we shouldn't forget that at that point he is is trying to make an appeal for Coldstone and even for Demona. She's trying to kill them and has them literally in her sight. He's trying to sell them to what he has come to accept and realized is his path in life and the path he sees for his clan. He's not successful; but he realizes where he stands and where he thinks his clan should stand. But that doesn't mean that its biology driving him to figure that or to end up at the decision he ended up at. He came to that conclusion after taking into consideration what Elisa said and showed him, on what Demona said and showed him and finally what Coldstone asked him. But is that biological instinct driving him to it?


The problem with this debate is that we can go endlessly in circles - I don't buy the idea that they are protecting hordes of hostile people because their protection instinct is overriding their survival instinct. I think that it takes away from them by protecting just because they are compelled to do it by biology and that in losing the free will to make that choice, in having biology tell them that they have to protect, it almost puts them in a caste system, stuck in one "profession" forever. It makes them in the argument of their enemies more like animals than rational sentient beings. And I don't figure it like that - I don't see the characters as just slightly more sentient animals who are driven to what they do by biology, by an urge they have no free choice in. I see them consciously making the choice not because they are inclinded to do it due to biology but because they stay true to what they have learned and how they were raised, to a higher ideal. You could almost call it religion. They see how the world is and what they were raised to think and in the end they choose to make a difference of their own free will, not out of instinct thats driving them to it.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, July 22, 2002 11:33:48 PM
IP: 12.88.89.183

<<Experience, Goliath's experience in the life-world and in his confrontation with the Nothing, allows him to sufficiently and subjectively analyze and judge a Gargoyle's being-in-world; to be more clear, his own experiences of life have revealed what it means to be a gargoyle in itself, the very essence of being a gargoyle reveals itself to him>>
Change experiance to intuition. Sorta crucial.

Intuition, Goliath's
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, July 22, 2002 10:38:49 PM
IP: 24.219.165.75

Well, the italics didn't show up! Basically, italisze "it is our nature, our purpose. To lose that is to become corrupt, empty, lifeless."

PEACE!


Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, July 22, 2002 10:10:45 PM
IP: 24.219.165.75

Airwalker> Not gonna cover all your points, but rather the major ones you made.

<<I don't agree that they were going against the very essence of their being in the entire first season. I do agree that they were directionless throughout it though. And that the reawakening of REAWAKENING was a reawakening to a sense of purpose that they had before the massacure which happened to be protecting.>>

Protecting is the Gargoyles' nature. That's what they have always known. That's why almost every clan we encounter is protecting something or have decided to protect something other than themselves. It is their instinct.

<<Would they have been inclinded to start protecting Manhattan if they had been running shops in medieval Scotland is my point?>>

The first mistake is thinking the Manhattan clan would be running a shop. Goliath is not interested in that and he would already be erring in running a shop for profit.

<<I don't think that they are biologically moved to protect, that instead they make a choice to do it, a choice that is more influenced by their past experience and general culture.>>

Yes, they do in fact make the choice; however, the instinct to protect is, arguably, biologically imbued in them. It is shown in the show itself. Just like the desire to know and think is imbued in every human, not every follows up on that urge. Gargoyles have the urge and instinct to protect, and they do, in fact, choose to follow it because it is overwhelming.


<<It doesn't mean that it was a biological inclination.>>

But it is a hint that he had been denying a part of his nature for the first season.

Goliath pretty much sums it up at the end of "Reawakening" in Demona's confrontation with him and Coldstone:

Coldstone: Is that all there is for us, mere survival?

Demona: Isn't that enough?

Goliath: No. Gargoyles protect; it is our nature, our purpose. To lose that is to become corrupt, empty, lifeless.

[italics by me].

Hudson even relates protecting to a natural, unavoidable (and unconscious) function: breathing. It is so imbued in Gargoyles to protect, that it is their nature, jsut as breathing is within every creatures nature. Just listen to Goliath's words about what it is to be a gargoyle. You can't empirically prove that it is in their genetic make-up; but this is where empiricism fails and phenomenology steps in overrides empiricism. Experience, Goliath's experience in the life-world and in his confrontation with the Nothing, allows him to sufficiently and subjectively analyze and judge a Gargoyle's being-in-world; to be more clear, his own experiences of life have revealed what it means to be a gargoyle in itself, the very essence of being a gargoyle reveals itself to him

. What they were protecting is called in to question. If they knew what they were protecting, Brooklyn wouldn't have asked what they were "protecting"; it would have been quite obvious. Hudson jumps on this and says the clock tower, but Goliath knew and saw that as a cop-out and knew that that wasn't true; the clock tower turned out to be a hiding place from Xanatos and anyone else.

So, in the first season, no one knew what they were protecting, which means they were merely struggling for survival. This is why "Protect and Serve" caught on to Goliath's ear; because he knew, in fact, that nothing was being protected.

<<The Japanese Gargoyles are warriors and so having a protectorate isn't out of the ordinary>>

Well this depends on what your definition of a warrior is. Warriors are not traditionally viewed as people that protect for a living and as a functional nature. Warriors are people who go to war and fight for their country over a specific cause (whether just or unjust). Why would Gargoyles need warrior skills to begin with if protecting is nothing more than a favor? What, in their nature, would compel them to become warriors if they owed no allegiance to any country or cause? Certainly not all of humanity trains themselves to protect their homes; certainly not the entire human race.

What I am getting at is that the entire race of gargoyles are warriors. That is their upbringing. And they just don't train to be warriors. They adapt these skills for a inner-purpose, to protect. They are not warriors for the sake of being warriors. Warriors don't adapt a protectorate out of convenience. They protect Ishimura because that is their natural instinct.

<<if the desire to protect all things is so biological then wouldn't the English Gargoyles be fighting their very biology in not doing so? Would they be fighting biological instinct in deciding to be merchants instead of warriors?>>

I yes to all. They are fighting and denying their natural instinct and their purpose.

<<We don't see him fighting the urge to help people; he seems to live rather nicely without protecting anything>>

Mainly because human instinct were programmed into him thanks to Servarius and Xanatos.

<<I think that it would be cultural.>>

If it was, in fact, cultural, then that would have dramatically changed over time. Instincts, however, hardly change. Culture is the way gargoyles dress, sing, their art, their thinking. Protecting is not cultural, it is a drive that can denied or fulfilled. Thinking is not apart of human cultural; it is , rather, our instinct. What thought is grounding for a cultural basis, but the very act of thinking is not cultural, it is drive. Humans are driven to know and understand. Gargoyles are driven to protect by their very instincts. What they protect is their own culture. They very act of protecting is nature; they very act of thinking is nature; what they protect and what we think is a product of their culture.

In sum, protecting is the Gargoyles' nature and it is imbued in them. What they protect is a product of their own individual cultures.

On a side note, I'd like to recommend a book to the room. "Introduction to Phenomenology" by Dermot Moran. If you notice, I never shut the hell up about phenomenology because I love it so! This book provides a great basis for the movement as a whole and presents the ideas and writings of key phenomenologists in plain language. Basically, what I am shamelessly doing is to try and encourage philosophy to be read more widely. Go! Get it! ;)

PEACE!

Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, July 22, 2002 10:09:32 PM
IP: 24.219.165.75

We could add Leo and Una to the list; they turn their back on protecting the human community in London - and wind up kidnapping Goliath's friends. Admittedly, that's not quite on the same level as Demona or Thailog, however.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 22, 2002 06:56:15 PM
IP: 63.208.40.35

And here's the second. Click below. ;)
Desdemona
Monday, July 22, 2002 06:23:33 PM
IP: 4.40.20.84

Last one, I promise! ;) Two Gargoyles Magnetic Notepads available, brand new, still in wrappers! Click below for the first one,
Desdemona
Monday, July 22, 2002 06:21:55 PM
IP: 4.40.20.84

Aaand another: Gargoyles folder. Take a click. ;)
Desdemona
Monday, July 22, 2002 06:16:55 PM
IP: 4.40.20.84

Another one: Gargoyles Panini Sticker book in practically brand new shape (also almost all stickers present and in place... less to collect!), along with matching poster (with ALL stickers in place!). Very rare. :) Hehe, click below.
Desdemona
Monday, July 22, 2002 06:13:47 PM
IP: 4.40.20.84

And here is the official Sega Genesis Gargoyles game guide below! Tells you all the little secrets in the game. Take a click. ;)
Desdemona
Monday, July 22, 2002 05:55:44 PM
IP: 4.40.20.84

Heya,
Well, more for eBay! The hard-to-find Gargoyles Sega Genesis video game, in excellent shape, complete with poster, is available on eBay on the link below. Hehe, here's hoping you guys don't mind me too much. ;) The poor college student,
Desdemona - [allykatty1@hotmail.com]
Monday, July 22, 2002 05:51:05 PM
IP: 4.40.20.84

Vash> Oh it's done. In fact, it's been done. It's in a folder on my hard drive, but I can't upload it from home. Too slow. I uploaded Demona from my university. Copied it onto Zip disk, and used their high speed T3 line to upload the entire thing in 3 minutes. I've tried from here at home, but I always get timed out on the receiving end. Right now, I'm in the process of updating my site, giving it a makeover since its more than a year old, and when I'm done with that, I'm uploading the video. But over the summer, I haven't been able to find a good non-busy, non-lazy day to slip into one of the computer labs unnoticed since there's summer classes going on. Rest assured, I will post it here first thing after it's been uploaded.

Gargoyles DVD> I had a fearful thought today, though I'm sure it probably won't happen. I was worried for a minute when I thought that Disney DVD may edit and clip parts of the episode(s) they put on DVD next year. Like Toon Disney does with anything mildly vulger, blood, or Sept.11 related. I'm sure there's nothing to fear, because I immediately remembered Greg saying he would have some word in the DVD creation, plus why would they edit anything that the consumer chooses to buy? Toon Disney edits because it's TV. If anything, they'll slap a content rating on the DVD(s).
Jim R.
Monday, July 22, 2002 04:16:35 PM
IP: 65.173.84.208

Protection> I'll add my 2 cents once I get back from the orthodontist. Until then!
Jimmy
Monday, July 22, 2002 12:42:19 PM
IP: 172.131.8.2

Awww, Katharine is Angela's clan mother. That's so sweet. *sniff*

Ask Greg queue> You have to wonder whether the people that ask stupid/redundant questions even bother to return to check the answer (and would they have the patience to wait, if they don't even have the patience to look through the FAQ?). I doubt anyone would miss them if they're deleted.

Jim R> Hey, your page says your Pack music video is 100% complete. Where is it? =(
Vashkoda
Monday, July 22, 2002 11:43:22 AM
IP: 129.98.123.136

MATT - You wrote: [if protection isn't wired into a gargoyle biologically, then why do clans around the world, with different cultures, different ways of life, different enviroments and circumstances all do it?]

Of all the clans we've seen, all we have come across are either warriors or adventurers. Warriors fight. And warriors need to have something to fight for, otherwise it just becomes meaningless and they wouldn't be able to maintain a culture of any sort. I think that the Gargoyle instinct (so to speak) to protect is linked more to their warrior culture, which at this point is what most clans have. (Each specific type of warrior culture and tradition varies slightly from clan to clan but overall they are mostly warriors. What would happen if they didn't have to be? Or it wasn't ingrained in them to be so? Would they drop dead from not being able to protect?)

There are clans out there who don't protect (at least not in the Goliath idea of Protection - non-self-interested protection) and they probably get along fine and without being corrupt. We haven't seen the rest of the English Gargoyles. And god knows what those Gargoyles on New Olympus, in isolation even from the New Olympians are doing. But outside of keeping themselves and their interests safe, I'm not sure they would be protecting anything or have a huge desire to.

You wrote: [there isn't one clan that doesn't protect something, and many of these clans have been seperated for millenia and have evolved different racial characteristics, but they all still are protectors.]

Again what about New Olympus? And London? In England outside of an Adventurer and his friends with guilt issues we don't have a clan that is concentrated on the idea of protecting. They're trying to keep a business going. In New Olympus they live in complete isolation even from New Olympians. What could they be doing? Protecting? Protecting what?

My argument isn't that most Gargoyles don't protect or don't want to protect, its rather in where the basis for this protection ideal comes from. I don't accept it as biological, as being something they are compelled to do no matter what they think; I think that it would be cultural. After all we don't know if Gargoyles might have had a common unified culture at one point in the past ala an Atlantis theory. It could be the distant memory of a first clan protecting that had future Gargoyles have protection become embedded into their various clan cultures.

Also in a way you could almost describe the protection idea among Gargoyles as almost being religious in way. And like religion it doesn't have to be hot wired into you; your raised into it or come to accept it or can reject it. But your not biologically tied to it.

You wrote: [throughout the series we hear phrases like "gargoyles protect" and "A gargoyle can now more stop protecting (the Castle), than breatheing the air" that sounds awfully biological to me.]

Then when they stop protecting the castle for most of the first season why don't they stop breathing? :-) Those are Gargoyle culture, creeds, religious saying, however you want to put it that they have been raised with and accept as valid theory. But they aren't biologically connected to anything. If Goliath and Company gave up and didn't protect anyone anymore they wouldn't drop dead. If their descendants stopped protecting they wouldn't stop living and they might not even feel guilty about it after a while. It's something that they have chosen but I don't see how being raised with the idea you have to protect is the same as being biologically forced to protect. I was raised for example with the saying "Keep Kosher". But nothing is biologically forcing me to do it. I choose to do it. It sounds like a very similar situation with the Gargoyles and protection.

You wrote: [Goliath is physically bothered in "Reawakening" because hes not being true to his gargoyle self]

Goliath was having a crisis of faith so to speak, seeing that his surviving clan were basically mocking what he was raised to believe was absolute truth. He was upset at the lack of direction; He was wondering what would happen to them without them being able to fufill the way and ideals that they were all raised with in the world they ended up in. But he wasn't in convultions over not being able to protect anyone.

You wrote: [Desdemona argues to Othello that to do nothing is not the gargoyle way]

Coldstone actually chooses not to accept his "faith" in HIGH NOON. He rejects the idea (for selfish reasons) and ultimately he comes around mainly because the love of his life convinced him to do so. On his own who knows what he might have done. But it wasn't an argument that "Protection has to be done" that got him; it was the argument that even as cybernetic ghosts, they are still who they were in life. And they still have the same responsibilites they had in life. His accepting her argument was his way of choosing life and recognizing that he still had a reason to go on.

(And to be honest let's not forget that in REAWAKENING in the flashback he was actually in favor of just abandoning the humans and the castle and striking out on their own. Biology didn't seem to be speaking to him when he said that. It was only Hudson sort of "scolding" him with the "A Gargoyle can no more stop protecting the castle than breathing the air" bit that got him to back down.)

You wrote: [the Manhattan Clan sends patrols around the city every night]

Patrols started after they decided to protect the city. Before that they happend to help out if they came across something which is noble but not biological.

You wrote: [time and time again we see gargoyles naturally wanting and needing to reach out and protect those who need it, even when they are totally unappreciated for it.]

Wanting to be accepted and not hated and not feared is different from a biological imperative to have to protect. I'm not saying that Protection isn't a major part of their lives; I'm saying that they are choosing to do it and are not being forced to do it through biology. They have a culture that glorifies protection, they have a desire to do good, but that doesn't mean that they are inherently going to protect. The clones might be a good example of this - unless they are taught to protect would they do that? Would a hatchling that is raised without the idea of protection be biologically moved to do so or would they be more likely to be like Thailog who wasn't raised to protect but to be self interested in power and money?



GABRIEL - You wrote: [I also believe Goliath says to Thailog in Double Jeopardy that abandoning the Gargoyle Way (protecting) is to become corrupt.]

Just because Goliath says something doesn't mean that it applies to Gargoyle biology. He believes that without a clear, noble purpose a Gargoyle is eventually going to lose sight of a true path and become corrupt. Sounds more religious than biological.

And for all the argument about biology, Thailog doesn't exactly seem inclinded to want to protect anything. He was raised to believe in profit rather than protection. We don't see him fighting the urge to help people; he seems to live rather nicely without protecting anything. If protection were biological then he must be doing a great job supressing the urge while he was actively trying to kill people. :-)

You wrote: [Also, we see Gargoyles who have abandoned the natural instinct of protection of the Other to protection of the Self and we see how corrupt and un-gargoyle they have become (i.e. Thailog, Demona, and Iago).]

They have other reasons to become corrupt than just abandoning protection. And they wouldn't become less corrupt if they woke up tomorrow and decided to protect something or someone. Demona and Coldsteel have strong character and judgement flaws that led them towards becoming what they are. And Thailog, with his dysfunctional family background, and profit above all upbringing, helped him choose to set down the path he followed.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, July 22, 2002 10:40:34 AM
IP: 12.88.114.235

brief comment *is at work*

to add to what Matt said, I also believe Goliath says to Thailog in Double Jeopardy that abandoning the Gargoyle Way (protecting) is to become corrupt. I think mainly because he is denying what is natural to him/her. Also, we see Gargoyles who have abandoned the natural instinct of protection of the Other to protection of the Self and we see how corrupt and un-gargoyle they have become (i.e. Thailog, Demona, and Iago).

Greg> sign it! Dude, you're writing the friggin' introduction XD lol.

more later
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, July 22, 2002 09:34:03 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

Nice to see some new questions answered at last at "Ask Greg". No big new revelations, although the reason for that strikes me as being the fact that they're not the kind of questions that trigger such responses. (More of the usual "Were you planning to use this legend or that?", "Can you use such-and-such a means of getting to Avalon?", etc.)

We really need more original and insightful questions, and less "Gargoyles trivia" for the question queue at "Ask Greg".
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 22, 2002 06:56:07 AM
IP: 65.57.58.39

oh, and Greg has answered some questions!!!!!!!!
matt
Monday, July 22, 2002 03:25:36 AM
IP: 207.230.48.19

Airwalker> if protection isn't wired into a gargoyle biologically, then why do clans around the world, with different cultures, different ways of life, different enviroments and circumstances all do it? there isn't one clan that doesn't protect something, and many of these clans have been seperated for millenia and have evolved different racial characteristics, but they all still are protectors. if not at least partially biological, then why are they all doing it? theres perfectly good reasons to think it is biological, and throughout the series we hear phrases like "gargoyles protect" and "A gargoyle can now more stop protecting (the Castle), than breatheing the air" that sounds awfully biological to me. Goliath is physically bothered in "Reawakening" because hes not being true to his gargoyle self, Desdemona argues to Othello that to do nothing is not the gargoyle way, the Manhattan Clan sends patrols around the city every night, time and time again we see gargoyles naturally wanting and needing to reach out and protect those who need it, even when they are totally unappreciated for it.

we starting the DCV again this week?
matt
Monday, July 22, 2002 03:24:13 AM
IP: 207.230.48.19

"Metaphysics, Phenomenology, and Gargoyles." - Gabe, when you write that book, I want you to sign my copy.
GDW
Monday, July 22, 2002 01:21:58 AM
IP: 67.224.9.58

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>
Tenth. OMG, that was close!
<EXIT LORD SLOTH>
Lord Sloth
Monday, July 22, 2002 12:45:44 AM
IP: 216.209.138.38

9th?

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, July 22, 2002 12:38:12 AM
IP: 68.102.1.42

8th! ^_^
Zehra
Monday, July 22, 2002 12:33:51 AM
IP: 172.139.249.159

7th?
IRC Goliath - [irc_goliath@yahoo.com]
"May the rats eat your eyes! I am now lost to your cause! The Darkness comes! It will damn us all!!!"
Monday, July 22, 2002 12:27:50 AM
IP: 64.166.63.98

We are the very model of modern major posters,
With posts in the top ten!
Fire Storm and LAdy Mystic
Monday, July 22, 2002 12:22:22 AM
IP: 216.254.103.139

make a note on me number 5,.. there .. :P
Demona May Stephens - [realdemona@yahoo.com]
the Insaine one
Monday, July 22, 2002 12:14:04 AM
IP: 209.208.54.93

NO 4!!!!
Demona May Stephens - [Realdemona@yahoo.com]
Monday, July 22, 2002 12:01:50 AM
IP: 209.208.54.117

Second! ...or something. (this isn't as much fun when you know exactly when the room will be wiped. Where's the challenge?)
Vashkoda
Monday, July 22, 2002 12:01:36 AM
IP: 129.98.123.136

third or fourth!
Kah
Monday, July 22, 2002 12:01:31 AM
IP: 198.142.141.7

Second!


GABRIEL - You wrote: [I think you missed the whole point of "Reawakening." Throughout the first season, the clan was going against the essence of their being: to protect.]

I don't agree that they were going against the very essence of their being in the entire first season. I do agree that they were directionless throughout it though. And that the reawakening of REAWAKENING was a reawakening to a sense of purpose that they had before the massacure which happened to be protecting. Would they have been inclinded to start protecting Manhattan if they had been running shops in medieval Scotland is my point? I don't think that they are biologically moved to protect, that instead they make a choice to do it, a choice that is more influenced by their past experience and general culture.

You wrote: [Goliath almost responds enthusiastically to the cop motto. "Protect whom? Protect what?"]

His questions didn't strike me as being laced with enthusiasm; rather I think that it sounded more like pure curiousity. Protection would be on his mind, on that I do agree. But that would be more likely considering that he spent most of his adult life doing that. It doesn't mean that it was a biological inclination.

You wrote: [The clan knew they were supposed to protect something - but througout the first season they were protecting Nothing. I.e. Goliath was slipping into the nothing (to pull Heideggerian terms out); and when one is pulled into the nothing, the very essence of their being is revealed.]

I don't think that Goliath and company were slipping into nothing the entire season. They did lack specific direction but they also trying to find one while trying to find a place in the new world they were in. They landed onto a direction by expanding the only thing they really knew about which happened to be protecting. But I don't think they chose that way because they were biologically driven to it; they chose it because they were warriors who had spent their lives protecting humans in their castle. Now they decided to shift the idea of what is their castle and just went back to doing what they knew. (I wonder what the reaction would have been if there had been some more elder Gargoyles around besides Hudson who might have remembered a time before this clan was protecting humans. Would they have been so inclinded to agree with Goliath?)

You wrote: [He realized (and most ultimately at the brink of death) what it IS a Gargoyle does. He had been living in the absolute Negation of the gargoyle way of life: to protect nothing.]

But he had been protecting something - his family. He does this the entire first season, sometimes through physically saving them and most of the time through guiding them as they discovered the new world they were in. He wasn't in an abyss of nothing. He just hadn't figured out to apply what he knew (and what he had decided to dedicate his life to, which in Scotland was protection) to his new life. The first season is transition. This still doesn't prove to me how the desire to Protect on the scale Goliath ended up with would be a biological move rather than a rational one that is backed up by his personal history and general culture.

You wrote: [Goliath knew "protecting" the clocktower was not even close to protecting anything. Protecting that led and deepend them toward the protection of nothing.]

I do think that he realised that even with a clocktower to "protect" his clan was still directionless. He saw merit in both Hudson's argument and the Trio's argument. But was he biologically compelled to do that? That's the original question. I think that he made a conscious decision to expand protection because he knew that without some goal in life, without something his clan might start to drift like Demona had. So he expanded his worldview slightly.

You wrote: [As opposed to the Ishimura clan, who went beyond their own personal home into the town, making the town their protectorate.]

The Japanese Gargoyles are warriors and so having a protectorate isn't out of the ordinary. And the culture they have is a warrior one even if they don't have much use for it up to the point when Goliath showed up. So it would be the right thing for them. But the London Clan isn't a Warrior Clan. (Doesn't mean they can't fight or produce fighters. Just means that they aren't inclinded to see the world that way.) And that brings us to the heart of the argument - if the desire to protect all things is so biological then wouldn't the English Gargoyles be fighting their very biology in not doing so? Would they be fighting biological instinct in deciding to be merchants instead of warriors?

You wrote: [Not only was it Griff that angered them so much, but it was their Nihilation of their being]

But it wasn't the fact that they didn't go out to fight the nazis with Griff that was causing them grief. It was that they let Griff go out in the company of some stranger; they basically let him go out alone for all intensive purposes since they knew nothing about Goliath. And he didn't come back. It was guilt at abandoning him that hurt them, that he died (or so they thought) and they stayed at home when going out with him might have made a difference.

You wrote: [In fact, in the end of M.I.A., the London clan decides to protect more than just their shop. Their faith in being-as-gargoyle was restored when Griff was returned, and they saw their Nihilation.]

They decided to make a new beginning and start to make a difference in their neighborhood. But ordinary people make the choice to do that too. It isn't exactly biologically driven. (Also they do have some self interest involved; their business is going to go under if the neighborhood goes to hell. It's not an idea that they might have at first but it might come to them eventually.) And we don't know the reaction of the rest of the London clan. Would they support it? Reject it? Think it unwise that the London Trio revealed themselves on the street in public? Start to think of it in cold terms of self interest rather than the lofty ending that Griff and his presence had inspired in the other two?

You wrote: [To go back to "Awakenings," after the clan is destroyed, Goliath says "We will save the humans, and we will have our revenge!!" He realizes (even in this time of destruction) that it is still his duty and instinct to protect, even those who hated his kind.]

His duty was to protect the castle humans. He was a warrior of that castle after all. And the way he said his statement, he did put more emphasis on the revenge part than on the saving part (understandably of course). But was that biology or duty and honor?

After he said that, it was his desire for revenge that was driving him rather than any protection instinct. If the Captain and Hakon hadn't gone over the cliff he would have gutted them on the spot and then worried about the safety of the Princess afterwards.



PATRICK - You wrote: [Isn't it a flawed argument, though, to say that organized religion in the Middle Ages was anti-gargoyle when at the same time the Church was putting up monumental cathedrals everywhere adorned with stone gargoyles, ostensibly for the purpose of guarding the building and scaring Satan's minions away?]

Yes and no. On the one had you're right and they are building almost sort of monuments to Gargoyles. But on the other hand they aren't exactly doing it to encourage people to think well of Gargoyles when doing so. But in the end it wouldn't be the first time that a conflict of logic would be glossed over by an organized religion in general and specifically in that time period.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, July 22, 2002 12:00:42 AM
IP: 12.88.86.114

FIRST!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, July 22, 2002 12:00:11 AM
IP: 24.219.165.75