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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending November 11, 2002

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"Negative First"? That's ludicrous! ^^; Heh . . . if anything, you'd be a positive number attatched to this week . . . and in any case, you can't assure your placement, because if someone were to post after you, you'd be negative-second. And you're not even negative until the next week is started.

Although I'm not going to deny that the only reason I posted is that I haven't posted for a while, not being overly knowledgeable about biology, and got bored. *nodnod*

Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Sunday, November 10, 2002 11:59:39 PM
IP: 205.187.255.107

Negative first!
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Sunday, November 10, 2002 11:56:46 PM
IP: 209.198.12.162

"Where does that weight come from"
Well, if every cell is Goliath's body spontaneously absorbed a nitrogen atom that would be 14/(6.02*10^23) grams times every cell in his body

Jimmy
Sunday, November 10, 2002 07:19:08 PM
IP: 199.74.80.243

Airwalker> "But they probably do put on a little extra weight since they do become completely solid - I'd say that they probably put on something like an extra 20-50 pounds." what? they were not solid before? is Goliath a gas or a liquid? partially, but not much, mostly solid. i think when gargoyles turn to stone their cell membranes harden around each cell in their body. this traps in all the moisture in their bodies. if anything, you are saying they lose moisture when they turn to stone, which means they would LOSE weight not gain it at dawn. and besides, where does that 20-50 pounds come from? suddenly, without eating or anything, this creature spontaneously gains weight, impossible. if Goliath weighs 300 lbs at 1 second before dawn, hes going to weigh 300 lbs 1 second after dawn too.
matt
Sunday, November 10, 2002 06:20:06 PM
IP: 207.230.48.39

ENIGMA - You wrote: [I still think that the gargoyle clans (ie: Ishamura)who had names probably had then due to a lot of human influence.]

I think that it would have been less human insistance on them taking names and more the matter of the type of warrior lifestyle and philosophy that they have adopted compared with what other Clans have. After all you can't take personal honor and glory for yourself without having a name for it to be attributed to.

You wrote: [I just don't think that there'd be that big of a difference in customs between clans.]

I think that there can and would be major differences in thought, philosophy, and custom between the various Clans. Distance and Environment have to have some effect. It would have been interesting to see how Brooklyn and Katana would have interacted in TIMEDANCER considering that his Wyvern/Manhattan values would probably have been radically different than her Ishimuran ones.

Naming is probably a Human influence on the various Clans but some Clans such as the London and Ishimuran might have had a different perspective on it than the Wyvern and Avalon Clans.


BABS - You wrote: [I'm in the section of the site im making about the Garg info, and was wondering if anyone could give me the real facts on the Garg family, including Demona]

Other than the various ages of the characters which are floating around in the ASKGREG archive nothing really specific has been calculated. There are the calculations of the Trading Cards but I don't think that the information on them is considered reliable.


MATT - You wrote: [A gargoyle during the day would weigh pretty much exactly what he/she weighs at night. Theres no way they could be different weights, and theres no reason to think they are.]

I think that at most there is probably a slight difference but nothing really major. I strongly doubt that they go from lets say 300 pounds to about a ton when they transform. But they probably do put on a little extra weight since they do become completely solid - I'd say that they probably put on something like an extra 20-50 pounds. Nothing that really would make a big difference.


JIM R - You wrote: [Maybe the biggest reason why such specifications aren't made up is probably because Greg didn't want us to believe it was so close to reality.]

There isn't really that much stopping anyone from trying to work out the details themselves without much input from Greg. (It would help to have it but some calculations can be made although without his nod they would only really be speculation.)

I think that the main reason that we don't have anyone sitting down to calculate measurements and physical specifications is that there is less interest in it. The Gargoyles Universe has other more interesting concepts to think and debate about than what Goliath's exact wingspan might be. It would be interesting to know but thats not really tied to what makes the show interesting for us.

You wrote: [It's very monotonous don't you think?]

It all depends on your interest. That someone came out with a Klingon Dictonary is a little weird but still interesting if your interested in the Klingon aspect of the Star Trek Universe. That someone went through the trouble of translating Hamlet into Klingon is a bit extreme.

Some Star Trek ideas in manuals and various other supplimental books can be interesting and in the end these materials get written because the fans are interested. I went through an Encyclopedia of Federation Worlds at one point mainly because I was bored at the time and because I was a bit curious about some of the various cultures and worlds that were invented for the Star Trek Universe. It was like reading through a suppliment for an alternate history novel or a GURP guide. I personally wouldn't mind seeing such a thing for the GARGOYLES universe.

You wrote: [It's very depressing that some people actually uphold such information to be true and base their everyday lives on it.]

That is a bit sad. In debate and discussion some suspension of disbelief is necessary - after all the entire "No Name" debate we just had would be impossible if we just answered everything with "Its just a cartoon". But there is a limit to how far you should take suspension of disbelief.


ELIOT - Welcome!


AARON - You wrote: [I think it's important to experience things in their original language.]

I agree that in general you should try to watch shows in their original language to get the full meaning that the creators intended for the audience to have. But at the same time I'm not closed out to also watching a good dub. Sometimes the dub even improves the product. SHINESMAN in Japanese for example is good but in the dub is Hillarious.

You wrote: [Something like Inu-Yasha, (which has turned out to be something of a disappointment, but that's another ramble altogether)]

Why do you consider Inu Yasha to be such a disappointment? I understand that it is toned down in terms of graphic violence from the manga but the story is still solid and follows the manga pretty closely in terms of plot (well up to the more recent in Japan episodes where its filler to let the manga get ahead of it again). Its solid Takahashi material.

You wrote: ["You can't have that kind of tea!"]

That was a CN edit; the uncut dub keeps the Sake reference in.

You wrote: [And yes there are some really bad voice "actors" out there, like everybody who ever worked for ADV.]

Not every ADV dub is bad; PRINCESS NINE had an alright dub. EXCEL SAGA has a great dub.

You wrote: [CN's dubs of Gundam Wing]

Ewwww.

You wrote: [And of course, Greg's 3x3 Eyes dub.]

Now that was a great dub. The 3X3 Eyes manga by the way is coming to an end in Japan with volume 40 and its possible that they might turn the complete series into a long TV series. (There have been rumours for a while that a 3X3 Eyes series will get done once the manga finishes up.)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, November 10, 2002 02:56:42 PM
IP: 12.88.165.217

Aaron> you are correct, my bad. a ton is two thousand pounds, i guess i was so into my rant i forgot my common sense.

but if anything it makes my point even more evident. if Goliath weighs 300 pounds as flesh, how could he suddenly gain 1700 pounds to become a ton at dawn???
and Jim R made the point about the Trekkies and how they can explain a cloaking device, show skematics of a warp core, make maps of the other side of the Galaxy, etc. but the have a couple things working for them that Gargoyles doesn't. first off, Star Trek is in the future, Gargoyles is in the present, its easy to explain things when you know mankind has a couple hundred years to learn and build new things, but Gargoyles is right now. furthermore, most Star trek speculation is scientific and technological in nature, this particular argument in Gargoyles relates more to biology and pyshics. we know that there is probably no real way an animal can naturally increase their weight 6 times or more without ingesting or bringing anything into their body, and all in a few seconds. even a skilled Trekkie couldn't rationlize this, except by magic and Greg has told us time and again it isn't a magical process, but a natural one.

The end of rant part 2

matt
Sunday, November 10, 2002 05:29:14 AM
IP: 216.178.8.76

Spacebabie> <<Wonder what Aaron has to say?>> Other then that I'm being reminded of that great anime video to Van Halen's "Right Now"?

I'm a complete sub snob. And maybe part of it is a "more-otaku-the-thou" thing, but I don't want to watch anything dubbed, be it Slayers, CTHD, Brotherhood of the Wolf, or Das Boot. I think it's important to experience things in their original language.

Something like Inu-Yasha, (which has turned out to be something of a disappointment, but that's another ramble altogether) where I know the story already, I'd rather watch in raw Japanese, with no subbing, then watch it dubbed.

Dubbing, I think, got a bad rep during the days of hack-job S&P editing, and hasn't recovered. Things like HFIL, "You can't have that kind of tea!" and "It won't go unless you're wet?" come to mind. And yes there are some really bad voice "actors" out there, like everybody who ever worked for ADV.

That said, there are a few dubs I like. The Mononoke dub, CN's dubs of Gundam Wing and 8th MS Team, the poke-dub is funny because Brock = Gourry. And of course, Greg's 3x3 Eyes dub.

But generally, I'd rather have subtitles. Unless it's Media Blasters, in which case, I'd rather have fansubs.

Matt> <<if Goliath weighs 300 pounds at night how does he put on 700 pounds in a few seconds at sunrise to become a ton?>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a ton *two* thousand pounds?

Gargs not having names> Hudson's example of the sky and "the river" not needing names: Which river? Is it possible that, gargoyles (usually) being tied to a specific protectorate, with no real urges to travel, there was simply less thought to naming things? After all, if you know the territory like the back of your hand, do you really need names? Just a thought.

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Sunday, November 10, 2002 03:13:40 AM
IP: 66.142.70.253

Thanks for the reply but.. Sadly, I never had the chance to go to any of the Gatherings. I was to young, and convincing my parents to take me would have been almost impossible.
So... In what way's were Goliath's features toned down?... Is there anywhere I can see older concept drawings of Goliath for myself?
-Eliot

Eliot - [eliot@tentoomany.com]
Wpg, MB, Canada
Sunday, November 10, 2002 02:46:59 AM
IP: 24.66.94.140

Heh, I see I forgot my pic from my post below...

Anyways, Greg Guler (who did some of the artwork on Goliath's character) explained at the Gathering how some of the early concepts for Goliath definitely had to be altered because they thought he looked far too Satanic. And after seeing some of those original concepts myself, I must say that Goliath as he appears now is very much toned down. :)

Jim R.
Saturday, November 9, 2002 10:51:37 PM
IP: 65.164.19.202

Get outta here, ya damn newbie, and take your questions with you! Ha, ha, just kidding. I've always wanted to do that. Seriously, it's great to see fresh blood at the comment room.

As for occultism: no clue. I remember Greg said they were at times concerned about not appearing that way. In his ramble on "The Mirror," he said that Demona was originally going to say to Puck "You served him. Now you can serve me," with "him" referring to Xanatos. S&P made them change that because they were afraid people would think "him" meant Satan. So it became "you served the human." Of course, that hurt my understanding, because I thought she said "humans" and didn't realize she meant a specific person. I don't remember ever hearing much about a backlash of any sort. Funny, hearing someone get that in Canada- look at my home town. You'd expect it from The Bible Belt first.

Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Charleston, South Carolina, USA
Saturday, November 9, 2002 10:34:10 PM
IP: 209.198.12.162

Hey! It's great to see that there are still fans of this show! When I was younger Goliath was my hero... And maybe he still is... "sigh" In any case... I have a question for you guys:
I seem to remember Gargoyles being attacked in the media "In my home town at least" as being Occultist and Satanic. I was only 9 at the time so I didn't really notice. Now on the other hand, I would like to find out just what it was about Gargoyles that offended so many people?

The only one that I can remember... Something about using Goliath as a way to desensitize children on demonic imagery? Sounds kinda crazy to me...
If anybody has examples of these arguments, or articles, I'd be grateful.
Thanks.

-Eliot

Eliot - [eliot@tentoomany.com]
Winnipeg, MB, Canada
Saturday, November 9, 2002 02:25:12 PM
IP: 24.66.94.140

Babs> In terms of whether links work or not, I didn't check them all, but the ones I did click worked. I'd also like to say that I like the general design of the site, but there are a few suggestions I have. Feel free to ignore them, after all, you are the site's creator. (And you didn't ask for suggestions either, so REALLY feel free to ignore them.)

1) No sound. Sound takes up bandwidth, so slower connections take longer to load the page. If you do use sound, try and get the quality fairly low, so that it takes less space and loads faster. If you have a link for them to download a sound, it doesn't matter so much how big it is.

2) Images should also be fairly low in terms of size. Most programs have an "export for web" option, so try using it, or try lowering the resolution of the pics. If the lower resolution is smaller without much difference in quality, there's your solution.

3) You might want to change the color of the links. Default blue normally works, but you have a blue background, so you might want to consider something different. The text might also need to be changed somehow, so that it shows up better. Maybe lightening the background would help with this? Not sure, something to think about.

4) The character page. I thought the changing pics was a pretty neat idea (and the circle was nice too), but you had Demona and Goliath in their human forms when the mouse was over them. Perhaps to keep the same "theme" throughout, you might consider doing the same for all of them. Well, except Elisa, maybe have her change into a Gargoyle.

Aside from that, the site was good. You said you've only been doing it for 5 days? That's pretty impressive. Keep at it! :)

DemonSpawn
Saturday, November 9, 2002 12:52:03 PM
IP: 130.111.42.26

That's some good points Matt, I don't think I really gave much thought about it before. Well, maybe a little about Broadway falling onto those rugs, but when you mention that when they turn to stone on the skiff and the skiff doesn't sink (unless it's a super magical skiff), then I'd have to agree that their stone weight probably doesn't change. I guess it's not something you pay too close attention to, at least not me.

Maybe the biggest reason why such specifications aren't made up is probably because Greg didn't want us to believe it was so close to reality. Just a thought. For example, in the Star Trek universe, crazy people write whole books and encyclopedias of blueprints and exact measurements, details and made-up instructions of how things work for most ships, objects, weapons, and technology EVEN THOUGH IT ISN'T REAL! It's very monotonous don't you think? Don't get me wrong, I like ST as a TV show, but all those sort of precise details push it way too far. It's very depressing that some people actually uphold such information to be true and base their everyday lives on it.

Jim R.
Saturday, November 9, 2002 12:46:42 PM
IP: 65.40.128.196

Airwalker - Was about to post the URL last night, but then my net service cut out =( I'll try posting it again later.

Todd - according to the Gargoyles trading cards, the gargs do have different weight in flesh and stone forms. *shrugs* don't know if Greg W. has mentioned one way or the other if the transformation affects their weight.

just quickly passing through

rush! rush!
MC

Mooncat
Saturday, November 9, 2002 09:44:52 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

a gargoyle during the day would weigh pretty much exactly what he/she weighs at night. theres no way they could be different weights, and theres no reason to think they are. just cuz Goliath during the day looks like solid granite doesn't mean he is. and if Goliath weighs 300 pounds at night how does he put on 700 pounds in a few seconds at sunrise to become a ton?
and there is evidence in the series to support gargoyles weighing the same when stone.
1. Goliath manages to get the other five gargoyles carried back and posed on the castle when the Magus puts the spell on them in Awakenings. even using a wagon to haul them back to the castle somehow he got those statues up to the tower and though Goliath is strong, i dunno if he could've carried a 1+ ton Hudson or broadway up the tower stairs...
2. we never saw any of the gargoyles sink into the soil/sand/mud upon turning to stone. which implies that their weight remained the same.
3. when Xanatos moves the Clan to New York in Awakenings we see him pick up Goliath as stone on a wooden plank using a simple crane. no way that system would work if Goliath as stone was weighing in at 1+ tons.
4. i find it unlikely that in The Price a few rugs would've saved Broadway from his fall if he weighed 1+tons him weighing a few hundred pounds makes it more convincing.
5. when Goliath, Bronx and Angela turn to stone aboard the Avalon skiff we didn't see it sink in the water or even unsteady the boat.

ok, done rambling... i'm just getting tired of hearing how Broadway weighs 1 ton at night and 100 tons during the day... it says something like that on Broadway's character card in the Gargoyles trading card series... *sigh*

matt
Saturday, November 9, 2002 05:14:08 AM
IP: 207.230.48.45

Babs: There aren't many "real" facts about the characters beyond the ages Greg has given us, and I suspect those numbers are made up (though not unreasonably so). Remember, these are cartoon characters. Physics and reality do not apply. Considering the damage Goliath does to things he falls on, I'd guess he weighs quite a bit more than 300 lbs. Likewise, a solid stone goliath would weigh more than a ton.

Wingspan is a easy to estimate if you just catch them flying in the show. I'd guess Goliath's wings to each be about 10% longer than he is (sans tail). I think the same is roughly true for the rest of the gargs except for Lex, who's total span is probably 6 feet.

Lastly, you may want to visit the formatting of your site and arrange the text so that its more readable.

Josh
Saturday, November 9, 2002 04:31:35 AM
IP: 64.165.203.162

Once again its time to play.. "the 80's game"
rules are not looking up or asking for the answer
let us begin.
1)On the cartoon 'Gummi Bears' what was the princess's name?

Danke for playing: I'll be on later with the answer


On a other note, I'm in the section of the site im making about the Garg info, and was wondering if anyone could give me the real facts on the Garg family, including Demona; you know like wingspan, age, height,weight during day and night,hobbies etc etc... My site is still in the testing site due to the fact that I'm teaching myself the computer languages and programs as I go along, and only been working on it for 5 days. My link is up there, if you would like to take a peek thats ok, and if you find anything wrong plz mail me and tell me, I'll be fast to fix it. danke for the help.

Babs - [barb018@hotmail.com]
Philly, Pa, U.S of A
Saturday, November 9, 2002 01:52:52 AM
IP: 68.80.98.67

I agree this whole name discussion is a great philisophical discussion that I keep thinking about. I agree with Todd that atleast the Wyvern Clan not having names separated them from humans. From a human perspective it really does seem pretty odd.
I still think that the gargoyle clans (ie: Ishamura)who had names probably had then due to a lot of human influence. Especially when you consider that what Elisa said in Awakenings is true, as humans we do like giving names to things for some reason. Also since it wouldn't make sense for a clan to have a long history (or short history) of names without having a human influence. I just don't think that there'd be that big of a difference in customs between clans.

Enigma
Friday, November 8, 2002 09:38:39 PM
IP: 24.118.156.5

Ah, yes. Sorry about sitting this one out so far, but my attention's been elsewhere lately (mainly, as far as "Gargoyles" is concerned, with writing TGS stories for the "Pendragon" spin-off), so I wound up staying out of this one.

All that I really have to say about the notion of gargoyles originally not having names was that I very much liked it, as one of the elements in the series that gave them the tone of being a unique race with its own way of looking at the world, the depth that made "Gargoyles" stand out among other animated series. I always particularly enjoyed Hudson's puzzled little speech to Elisa in "Awakening Part Three" upon the subject: "Must you humans name everything? Nothing's real to you until you've named it, given it limits.... Does the sky need a name? Does the river?" It's one of my favorite "philosophical moments" in television animation (and won me over from the first time that I saw that scene).

Not very profound by comparison with everything else that's been written here: sorry about that. Hopefully I'll be able to bring more to the next time that we have a "Gargoyles-philosophy" discussion here.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, November 8, 2002 06:30:15 PM
IP: 63.208.60.13

MATT - You wrote: [The Mayan Clan always seemed to hold tradition as an important thing and I think they will continue to not name their children except for the Pendant Wearers. Having the least interacton with humans probably helps...]

The lack of contact with Humans would incline them to continue to not need names. But on the other hand its possible that from this point on they might decide to take, give, and keep names. After all they have encountered Gargoyles who have permanent names; that should have some influence on them.

And on top of that there is the fact that with the existance of Gargoyles revealed, someone is bound to head to Guatemala to investigate the pretty visible sightings there. The odds are that there is going to be greater interaction at the very least or at least the need for the Mayan Clan to learn more about the outside world. Naming might play into that. Besides a dozen or so Hatchlings hearing the only four elders around addressing themselves by names might have some influence on them too; the Children themselves might choose names eventually.

Isolation in general seems to be ending for a lot of Clans; Cyberbiotics might own the land the Mayan Clan lives on but there are farmers and villagers who might object - the Mayan Clan are going to have to learn eventually to be legal nuts as well as environmental nuts. And when you get into legal mumbo jumbo it helps to have a name. :-)

You wrote: [My impression of Beth from the comics is that she was not neccesarily promiscuous, but she seemed more realistic in the comics.]

It wasn't so much that she felt realistic as it was that the comic could take the show on from a slightly different angle. After all in the show Beth Maza has been in 2 episodes (3 if you count her being in the photo of the Maza family in DEADLY FORCE) and only really starred in one. There is plenty of space to work with.

You wrote: [All the characters in the comics seemed more realistic than in the show mainly because the comic was geared towards a more mature audience and thus not restricted by S&P as is the Gargoyles show.]

The comic wasn't geared so much towards a more mature audience as it is that there is more leeway between TV S&P and the Comic Code Authority.

The comic in my understanding was geared for the same 10-15 year old audience that all American Comics are geared for. It was 1995 when the comic came out; Marvel wasn't into experimentation and trying to get a mature audience - it was trying to bleed dry its existing young but shrinking and aging audience.

Personally I think that now with Manga tradepaperbacking taking the industry by storm and with Marvel trying to experiment and get new readers (sorta anyway) and with old franchise revivals in comic form (Transformers and GI Joe) that a GARGOYLES comic (or preferably GNs) might flourish in this day and atmosphere (or at least do moderately well). If the crap that they've turned FF, Captain America, and Avengers into can still sustain themselves then GARGOYLES which would be a million times stronger storywise should be a success.


JURGAN - You wrote: [When has it been established that most gargoyle clans are no more than forty individuals?]

I don't remember if Greg specifically mentioned that ALL Gargoyle Clans are around that number but I do remember him mentioning that the Original Wyvern Clan was around that number. And we know that at one point a chunk of the Clan broke off to settle some other area although we don't know if they did so due to some dispute or due to lack of resources, etc. It seems a good bet to say that at one point (Medieval times to be more specific) once a Clan gets too big it branches off another Clan.

There would be a lot of good reasons to limit a Clan to the area of 40-60 members in Ancient and Medieval times. First there are resources to consider - Gargoyles probably do need a little more than Humans even once the Stone Sleep is factored in. Then there is interaction with Humans - a Clan in allience with Humans would want to keep its numbers from jumping out of control since a Clan of 200-300 members might prompt the locals to do some daytime population control on their own. And then there is the whole "We don't need names cause blah blah blah..." :-) that adds into it. After a certain size point such a philosophy wouldn't be able to function - living without names has a certain population limit. Around 80-100 Gargoyles it would get way too confusing. And once again there is the Human factor involved although this time instead of alliance we have the enemy factor; a huge Clan in one place is vulnerable. It would explain what Demona did with her Wandering/Moray Clan - spliting the group up insures that at least one of the groups is going to survive to til sunset. And it helps to have another "Clan" in existance not far away with a blood link to your permanent Clan that can come to your aid and can act as a backup.

You wrote: [It seems like they might have adapted to small clans for secrecy in an increasingly human-dominated world, but I don't see why there couldn't be a larger one.]

Its possible that in Ancient Times the various Clans were bigger although again there is the resource and no name factors to account for. I honestly don't think though that huge Clans would really be possible until Modern Times. From 1900-up the resource issue isn't an issue and they have names so the only reason to keep a Clan small would be to make sure that it doesn't get smashed all at once by Humans. But other than that there isn't really an obstacle anymore to a larger sized Clan except perhaps that the family feel and structure that a small Clan has would be lost. It would become more a society or tribe than a Clan.

You wrote: [Interestingly enough, she told me that in the comics, Beth Maza was quite promiscuous. Can anyone confirm this?]

From what I remember she was a bit more rebellious rather than promiscuous. But she was only around for an issue or two before she ran back to Arizona. The comic sometimes did seem like it was trying to fit inbetween the various episodes of the series but at the same time be independent of it. Broadway still got the girl though. :-)

You wrote: [Goliath didn't really have much trouble with Xanatos sharing the castle before they found out what he was capable of.]

I don't think that was how Goliath thought of it in AWAKENINGS. On the one hand he saw the Castle as belonging to the Clan in that they lived there, protected it, and that it was all he thought he had left. But on the other hand he knew that Xanatos owned it and that he was staying there in modern times by his invitation. So I don't think that he thought he was sharing it; its possible that until AWAKENINGS 5 he thought that in a way he was serving Xanatos in place of Katharine or Malcolm who were the previous owners of the castle. (Did the Clan even see the Castle as theirs until Modern times? After all Demona talked about the Cliffs in her AWAKENINGS arguement as their ancient home. The castle just happened to be on top of them after the alliance was made. It only became their "ancestral home" in modern times after they were forced to leave, mainly I think because it was all that was left of actual Wyvern - the castle had to have been made from some of that Cliffside after all.)

You wrote: [Goliath also had a lot of trouble adjusting to the idea that Xanatos owned the castle and could legally claim he was in the right to evict them.]

Goliath's problem was less that he couldn't grasp the idea that Xanatos owns that castle and more with the fact that he thinks that once Xanatos was defeated what he has is now ceded to the victor. He appeared to not understand that ownership was no longer tied to physical power. I think that it wasn't that he didn't understand but that it was him indulging in denial more than anything else. After all if what Elisa tells him is true then he has to leave and he didn't want to do that.

You wrote: [When I got the Tenchi Muyo! DVD's (my first anime purchase ever, and also what I spent the first paycheck I ever got on), I compared some of the subtitles with the English text.]

The subtitles did have some problems in the Tenchi OVA set in some places but in general Tenchi was dubbed in such a way that the dub was almost identical to what was being said in the original version.

I thought it was a pretty good dub by the way - I personally like both the dub and sub equally although its difficult listening to the Japanese version of Tenchi without thinking Belldandy is going to magically appear and get into a fight with Ayeka and Ryoko. :-)

(Tenchi's voice actor in Japanese is also the Japanese voice actor for Keichii in Oh My Goddess.)

By the way the OVA set is being released individually to celebrate the anniversary of the series and also for when the third OVA makes it over here in the next year or two.


MOONCAT - You wrote: [He has an online comic now, if anyone is interested I'll look up the url.]

I am curious - could you post the URL?

You wrote: [Sometime I have to track down Amanda Conner, the artist, and commission a Demona picture from her. She really did do a fantastic job on the comic book.]

I thought that her versions were good especially for the atmosphere that the comic book was going for although she tended to make the Gargoyles clothes (well the little that they have) look more like raw rags that they had on as an afterthought. Still I wouldn't mind seeing some more Gargoyle art from her.


ANARCHISM VS COMMUNISM - I don't think that you could really define Medieval Gargoyle Clan Structure along either lines. I think the problem is that we are thinking of the Clans more broadly as a society when they are more along the lines of an extended family with all the rules and structure that a family has.

It is a bit more difficult to think of them along the family social structure line considering that we've become accustomed to thinking in terms of the nuclear sized family. But a Gargoyle Clan's structure seems to be more along the lines of an ancient extended family.

I don't see Communism fitting Gargoyles - if they share and distribute any and everything its more along the lines of helping the family to survive and thrive than to support the power structure. I also don't see Anarchism fitting Gargoyles either - they don't see everyone as inheritly good (that was part of Goliath and Demona's arguement back in AWAKENINGS 1 and essentially Goliath agrees with Demona although he doesn't want to follow through the thought) and while Gargoyles do help others despite it being a threat to them at times they don't seem to think that they are going to get reciprocal help in return. So I don't think they buy into the idea of everyone helping each other as much as I think they buy into the idea that WE (i.e. the Clan) should help and if someone helps us then thats great but if they don't then they don't.


GABRIEL - You wrote: [Gargoyles, out of my own interpretation, don't trust science]

Its not that they don't trust science as much as it is that they don't trust most people not to abuse science. And they are much more concerned over magic than science. Goliath doesn't freak out over genetics (i.e. Thailog) as much as he freaks out of how it was used. He does have a completely mistrust of magic which you could say is a form of science if you want to. I think that magic mistrust amounts to the fact that at least science leaves the window open for some control and explination while magic is almost completely random and defies the rules of nature thus making it more likely to be trouble.

You wrote: [we don't know their attitudes towards statism]

Would Goliath and company think of the state in the same manner as we do? After all the concepts of government and state that we live under today are a recent development - the state as we know it today is different from what existed a thousand years ago. I think he relates to it more within the concepts that he grew up with than with we might automatically think of. It would make a Trial of Goliath very interesting.

You wrote: [nor do we know their attitudes towards stuff like people being able to use drugs or anyone doing what they want]

I don't imagine that they have a very good attitude towards drugs for a lot of reasons; they don't have a very good attitude towards guns after all so why would they have a better one for drugs?

As for people doing what they want, well they don't let people steal so odds are that they have a limit on what they will stand for in that category. :-) I think they might take the attitude that if its legal and your not hurting anyone then go ahead and knock yourself out but that might vary from individual to individual.

You wrote: [I could just be knit-picking, but Goliath seemed pretty strong about the castle being theirs in "Enter MacBeth."]

He had issues at the time that were driving that. If his heart was really into it he would have put up more of a fight when the rest of the Clan confronted him at the end of the episode.


DEMONSPAWN - You wrote: [As an observation, it really shows that you like a series when you're debating the governmental structure of medieval age gargoyle clans. :)]

It almost sounds like a college class - Medieval and Modern Gargoyle Social and Political Structure. :-)

You wrote: [The whole sub/dub issue is rather heated, but longtime anime fans generally prefer subtitles.]

I'm a longtime anime fan but I tend to stick out from the majority in that I while I tend to gravitate towards the subtitled version I don't mind watching a show dubbed if the dub is good. And there are plenty of well done dubs out there contrary to what my entire College Anime Club had to say.

You wrote: [because most companies change the script to make the words fit the mouth movements.]

I don't mind a change like that as long as they convey the core of what was being said in the original version. I hate it when they do something like they did with ORPHEN where the dub is a totally different story from the Japanese version.

You wrote: [Also, Gillian Anderson was AWFUL in Mononoke.]

I liked the Japanese version of Moro much better although I got the idea of what they wanted to get across in the dub version of the character. They wanted a whispful voice, mature and sad, with the weight of the world on her shoulders. A little of that did come through in Gillian Andersons preformance but in general the main thrust of it just didn't sound right to me.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, November 8, 2002 05:37:01 PM
IP: 12.88.164.193

I've noticed the 'discution' about gargoyle and names. I think it's interesting. As someone pointed out we don't really know if the Wyvern Clan is the only one to not chose names. The other gargoyles that were on the show all had names, but that may just be because of human influence/intervention as opposed to tradition.
Enigma - [SnowbabetheKoala@yahoo.com]
Friday, November 8, 2002 04:43:33 PM
IP: 24.118.156.5

I've noticed the 'discution' about gargoyle and names. I think it's interesting. As someone pointed out we don't really know if the Wyvern Clan is the only one to not chose names. The other gargoyles that were on the show all had names, but that may just be because of human influence/intervention as opposed to tradition.
Enigma - [SnowbabetheKoala]
Friday, November 8, 2002 04:43:08 PM
IP: 24.118.156.5

<<<-------She's starting to grow on me.

A discussion on names and society

Communism? Nah

Anarchism? Nope

Socialism? Possibly?

As for names hmmm It can get tricky when the leader is giving out commands. He sends those who are nearbye

"You five glide over the shepherd's' fields." This could be bad. Those clan members who like to kiss up would try to be within eyesight of the leader whenever possible. While those that are lazy would try to keep hidden.

I think Jurgan got it right

Jurgan]----The only real need for names comes when talking about people who are not present. "You know, that one brother with the horns and the round face?"

Yeah that doesn't sound right.

"Where is your brother?"

"Which one?"

"The purple webwing with the spiral horns"

Gotta use this quote "A rose by any other name will smell as sweet"

Where is Todd. I would like to see his two cents.

Now for something completely different.

Sub Vs Dub, Been watching anime since 1997. For me some anime is only good subbed and there are great dubs. This is why I'm getting it on DVD now since I have both versions. For example I like both versions of Slayers, except in the case of Xellos..I only like him subbed.

Wonder what Aaron has to say?

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Friday, November 8, 2002 02:13:30 PM
IP: 67.24.93.126

Gargoyles Original production cel of Lex for sale. I may sell more later... but probably not. We're selling this because we also have to sell our house. :(

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=aimee&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25

or seller name "aimee"

Aimee - [aimee@aimeemajor.com]
Friday, November 8, 2002 11:18:37 AM
IP: 66.121.56.234

I think I asked before and I'll be asking again...

..

right now.

Anyone have some pics from Gathering 2001 of the production art from the show that was on display? I'm especially interested in finding a clear image of the downshot on NYC. I've found a couple images that have glare from the camera flash covering half the image but I haven't found a full big ass copy. Anyone know where I might find such a thing?

Danke.

Eric - [eric@s8.org]
Friday, November 8, 2002 01:30:24 AM
IP: 151.203.252.51

Jurgen> <<They always seemed willing to share their homes with others.>>

In general, it comes off like that. I could just be knit-picking, but Goliath seemed pretty strong about the castle being theirs in "Enter MacBeth." Almost violently so, I would say. But then again, Hudson counters this by saying home is togetherness with the clan, and Goliath accepts this. Perhaps it was showing that Goliath was too rooted in the physical home that the castle was and gave not enough attnetion to the metaphysical home that togetherness with the clan provides. Also, Goliath does say the clock-tower is merely where they sleep, not truly their home, and he does extend "homeness" to Manhatten in general. So, yeah, you got a point :p.

<<mutually dependant symbiosis>>

Interesting. Now I have something new to watch for in the show :D.


I linked a site that hosts Kropotkin's writings for free if you're interested in reading more. To be honest, his most interesting thing on there is his anti-thesis to Darwin's survival of the fittest. Though these ideas do shed a new light on the Gargoyle life-style. Heheheh, it's kinda odd what can slip through the censors >:).

Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Friday, November 8, 2002 01:27:50 AM
IP: 66.169.210.231

<<want the do whatever the hell you idea going>>

Whoa! Don't even ask me what the that's supposed to say :P That's what happens when you have too much going on in your head ^___^.


Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Friday, November 8, 2002 01:13:31 AM
IP: 66.169.210.231

Hmm, this anarchism stuff is interesting. I may look some of that up. Actually, I'm not sure if gargoyles really do think of themselves as "owning" their homes. Their strong thoughts of protection generally apply to protecting something else beyond themselves, rather than something that they can lay claim to. I think it might be more like the Native American idea of land ownership. They don't actually own the land. Rather, the environment supports them and so they feel obligated to repay it by protecting it. It could be a form of mutually dependent symbiosis. They always seemed willing to share their homes with others. Goliath didn't really have much trouble with Xanatos sharing the castle before they found out what he was capable of. His only hesitation seemed to be due to the fear of betrayal (which turned out to be founded). It didn't really have anything to do with territoriality. Goliath also had a lot of trouble adjusting to the idea that Xanatos owned the castle and could legally claim he was in the right to evict them. It wasn't that they owned it, but that, since they protect it, they had a right to take advantage of it.

Subs v. Dubs: I've been into anime for about a year and a half. I've seen a lot of things, and I understand that many "serious" anime fans prefer subtitiled Japanese, but I prefer English dubs (technically, it's incorrect to just say "dubs," seeing as all animation is dubbed- pointless nitpick, I know). People talk about accuracy, but the thing is a lot of subtitles are aimed at literal translation. When translating, some of the words should change. The idea should be to make a script that gives the same impressions and feelings to the audience, not one that has the exact same meaning. When I got the Tenchi Muyo! DVD's (my first anime purchase ever, and also what I spent the first paycheck I ever got on), I compared some of the subtitles with the English text. Take this villainous line: Dub: "She is, how can I put it delicately, waste product." Sub: "She is, how can I put it delicately, incapable." Which sounds better? To me, the former by far. El-Hazard did a lot of dialogue changes too, but it was generally to things that just sounded better in English. Just as long as they don't rewrite the entire script, I like dubs because they make changes. Bad voice acting: generally, I've not had that problem. The thing is, different languages have different expectations of voices. For example, in Japanese, a shrill female voice is often considered sexy, whereas in English, it can just be irritiating. So I think it's pretty hard to say that a voice actor in a foreign language sounds emotional, because I don't really know what that should sound like. There are, of course, exceptions to any rule- the English cast of Vampire Hunter: D was horrid. However, I'm generally forgiving. The last point is that it just feels more real to actually hear the people speaking than to read what they say. After a while, you can get used to it, but I still don't like it as much. Besides which, as you pointed out, dubs are getting better. I like them better already, and I think more people will come that way in the future.

And I didn't have a problem with Gillian Anderson, but to each his own.

Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Friday, November 8, 2002 12:55:28 AM
IP: 199.79.250.254

Demon Spawn> <<Anarachy (as I understand it, and I'm not a history teacher so I could be wrong) is lack of government, laws, or social structure, which is the middle point in a revolution (i.e. the old government has just been overthrown, now the new government is fighting to be established). >>

Almost. THere are anarchists (which Ihaev recetnly encountered) who want no sturcture and want the do whatever the hell you idea going. I don't consider that Anarchy as it is seen in the actual writers. Then there are Anarchists who uphold the mutual-aide ideal (which, to use a better term, turns out to be Libertarian Socialism). There is a structure and an order, the only law there could truly be is my rights cannot impinge on your rights without my consent.

I seriously do not see GArgoyles advocating some sort of revolution or anything like that; and I honsetly don't see them being outspoken against statism. I do still see their life-style as a proto-anarchist style though...but not fully as they still have property and a leader.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Thursday, November 7, 2002 11:06:08 PM
IP: 66.169.210.231

Honestly, I don't think you could consider gargoyles clans to be either anarchy-based or communism based. Anarachy (as I understand it, and I'm not a history teacher so I could be wrong) is lack of government, laws, or social structure, which is the middle point in a revolution (i.e. the old government has just been overthrown, now the new government is fighting to be established). Communism, as someone else stated, is the equal division of material worth (food, money, etc.). Gargoyle clans had a social structure, and probably some sort of law, although it was probably simply "obey the leader in times of crisis," and "don't go against the clan". And since they had no material possessions, I think it's impossible to compare their structure to that of a communism. If anything, they would have had a more hunter/gatherer approach to their society, and as to what type of structure could be said that primitive societies have, I have no idea.

As an observation, it really shows that you like a series when you're debating the governmental structure of medieval age gargoyle clans. :)

Jurgan> I'm curious, have you been watching anime for a long time? The whole sub/dub issue is rather heated, but longtime anime fans generally prefer subtitles. I'm not going to ask why you prefer dubbed anime (because I know a lot of decent reasons), unless it's an unusual one. Although the biggest reasons people prefer dubs is because a lot of voice actors are horrible (which is changing as it becomes more mainstream) and because most companies change the script to make the words fit the mouth movements. And for some reason, they usually don't have the sense to make the dialogue even resemble the original script. That, too, is getting better, but there's still some really horrible examples out there if you look. Actually, Princess Mononoke was one example where they completely changed the dialogue in a couple lines. Also, Gillian Anderson was AWFUL in Mononoke. She couldn't really act in the X-Files either, but at least there she could do body movements to get the point across.

BTW, I'm REALLY into anime if you haven't figured it out. :)

DemonSpawn
Thursday, November 7, 2002 10:42:26 PM
IP: 130.111.42.26

Jurgan> <<Gargoyles: The original communists.>>

I wasn't going to say it :P. Actually, though, I wonder if they boarder more towards Anarchism. The only problem is that in Anarchism, no one is the sole proprieter (sp?) of any property; and it is pretty clear (esp. Enter MacBeth) that Gargoyles are VERY home-bound, meaning Goliath knew that Wyvern belonged to his clan and no one was going to take it.

The differance between the two is that in Communism the state takes people's money and equally distributes it among the citizens; in Anarchism, there is a presupposition that everyone is inherently good (HAHA, yeah right!), and that the state corrupts people, so they say that people will naturally aid each other so that everyone will be equal. Kropotkin (the most prolific Anarchist writer) actually went out into the wild to observe animals like Darwin did; his findings were that nature is not survival of the fittest, but that animals helped one another to survive.

It's interesting thing to point out that Anarchism is not against ALL authority; they almost always bow-down to the superioirty of Science, they even confess so. Gargoyles, out of my own interpretation, don't trust science (well, Goliath for the most part, Lex is sorta the sore thumb for my interpretation :P) and look towards a designated leader for "authority." However, I don't see Goliath or any leader lording their authority over the clan, but is equal among his/her clan unless when the time is called for to be a leader.

I wouldn't go so far as to call them pure anarchists (we don't know their attitudes towards statism [they seem to not care whether they are in Scotland or USA, just as long as they are with their clan and protectorate, but they are not hostile to the state, they seems to be indifferant, however, we never get a truly good look], nor do we know their attitudes towards stuff like people being able to use drugs or anyone doing what thyey want), but they BOARDER on the anachist life-style since they live equally with each other in a cooperative community and help one another, yet they still have a sense of home-property (very-strongly so), but my concsiounce leads me towad believing that their home would be open to friends and good-willed people as long as they are not under the threat of being destroyed.

Anyways, it's fun to talk about this stuff :D
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Thursday, November 7, 2002 10:01:50 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

dang... Now I have to re-read my Gargoyles comics. It was geared for a more adult audience, and I loved the character Venus. I've traded e-mail with the writer a few times. He has an online comic now, if anyone is interested I'll look up the url. It's like a more updated version of Mille the Model. Sometime I have to track down Amanda Conner, the artist, and commission a Demona picture from her. She really did do a fantastic job on the comic book.

MC
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Thursday, November 7, 2002 09:24:11 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Beth Maza> my impression of Beth from the comics is that she was not neccesarily promiscuous, but she seemed more realistic in the comics. of course, all the characters in the comics seemed more realistic than in the show mainly because the comic was geared towards a more mature audience and thus not restricted by S&P as is the Gargoyles show.
one thing i remember about Beth in the comics is that she kept going to this New York night-club. i believe there was drug use and a murder at the club, if i remember correctly, something like that... oh and i remember her sitting around Elisa's apartment in her undies, something we definitly didn't see in the show!

matt
Thursday, November 7, 2002 02:57:58 AM
IP: 207.230.48.80

A very interesting discussion on something I'd always wondered about. Limiting, hmm? Well, I suppose, if it can be proven that for every epsilon greater than zero, there exists a delta such that- oh, wait, we're not talking about that kind of limit. Ah, Calculus humor. Sorry, I've had two math tests this week.

Anyway, most of what people are saying makes sense. I'm confused on one thing: when has it been established that most gargoyle clans are no more than forty individuals? It seems like they might have adapted to small clans for secrecy in an increasingly human-dominated world, but I don't see why there couldn't be a larger one.

As for naming, it seems like some gargoyles would gain titles that would be like names by being almost universally used- everyone would call Goliath "Leader" or Hudson "Mentor," aside from close friends in personal situations. On the other hand, if it is a small clan, then almost everyone would be close friends. The only real need for names comes when talking about people who are not present. "You know, that one brother with the horns and the round face?"

Someone else made a good point about names relating to class distinction. Given the communal nature of the society, I imagine they wouldn't even have last names. Actually, it would probably be "Kai of Clan Ishimura," or some such.

Gargoyles: The original communists.

Actually, the whole labeling question reminds me of Japanese honorifics. Depending on your relationship with the person, you could call him/her "san," "chan," "dono," "sama," "sensei," etc.

Princess Mononoke: One of my favorite movies, and I think the English dub is great. In all fairness, I've never heard it in Japanese. Furthermore, I almost always prefer English dubs, for a variety of reasons that I will not get into unless someone asks.

If I may be allowed to indulge in a ramble on a completely unrelated subject- sorry, but I've been meaning to do this for something like six weeks. A while ago, I went to Anime Weekend Atlanta, the largest anime convention in The South. On Saturday and Sunday, I was sure to wear the Gargoyles shirt I got from The Gathering, seeing as it was the most distinct fanboy-type thing I had (I must have seen a couple dozen NERV shirts). I was pleased to find that there were quite a few people walking the con with fond memories of the show. At least half a dozen people commented positively on my shirt, and at every opportunity, I attempted to plug this site, as well as mentioning the upcoming DVD. I got into one thirty minute or so conversation with someone wearing a shirt that was either proclaiming herself a Satanist or making fun of Coca-Cola. Interestingly enough, she told me that in the comics, Beth Maza was quite promiscuous. Can anyone confirm this? Someone else was a bit confused as to how their version of Macbeth could be more accurate than Shakespeare's, assuming Shakespeare's play was a canonical source. Another conversation was rather mysterious- while I was getting an autograph, someone came up to me and asked me if I had gotten that shirt within the last year, clearly wanting to know if he could get one. I explained the circumstances preclucing that, but then, to cheer him up, I told him about the DVD. He asked who was releasing it. Disney, I assume. "Not Disney! They'll ruin it!" I reminded him that Disney had made the show- he seemed to know that, but still thought they'd screw around with it. I guess he was thinking of the Toon Disney people, and he did point out that they were refusing to play "Lethal Enforcers" (his words, not mine). I think I was able to convince him that for a DVD release, there was very little doubt that it would be uncut. I find it an amusing form of double-speak that people can decry Disney for cutting up the show while ignoring the fact that without Disney it wouldn't exist at all (or if it did, it would be in a radically different form). It's kind of annoying- almost as bad as the people who whine about Cartoon Network cutting anime.

Anyway, I just thought some of you might be pleased to know that there is still a latent fanbase out there. They just need something to trigger them into being active fans again. That certainly bodes well once the DVD arrives.

Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Thursday, November 7, 2002 12:02:24 AM
IP: 199.79.250.254

"I didn't think that the dub was bad. The original version is better but the dub on its own was a pretty good effort. Not every character came off great in the dub but the main cast (San and Ashitaka specifically) was solid; and you can't argue with Keith David as an angry Boar God. :-) "
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep, Keith David was quite good. And most of the primary cast was pretty good, but there were quite a few cheezy lines interspersed. But it was decent as far as mainstream dubs go.

Jimmy
Wednesday, November 6, 2002 03:19:10 PM
IP: 199.74.80.243

just to clear this up, i'm nearly positive that Greg said that besides the Pendant Wearers, the Mayan Clan does not use names. the gargs wearing the pendants are given the traditional names and when they pass on the pendants they are again nameless. so only 4 gargs of that Clan ever have names. of course since there are only 4 surviving members at this time, they whole clan is named. the Mayan Clan always seemed to hold tradition as an important thing and i think they will continue to not name thier children except for the Pendant Wearers. having the least interacton with humans probably helps...
matt
Wednesday, November 6, 2002 02:57:08 PM
IP: 207.230.53.72

GABRIEL - You wrote: [Why wouldn't gargoyles name themselves?]

Actually we've only seen one specific Medieval Clan that didn't take names - we don't really know how widespread the Wyvern "No Names" Philosophy was. Its possible that this idea may have only been limited to Gargoyles in the British Isles while Gargoyles elsewhere might have laughed at the idea. But its also possible that the Wyvern Clan is representative of all Gargoyles in the Ancient or at least in the Medieval world.

I figure that early Gargoyles (or to be more specific Medieval Gargoyles since more Modern Gargoyles did get around to taking names and we know absolutely nothing about Ancient Gargoyles) were influenced by three major factors - location, population size, and biology.

BIOLOGY - By this I don't mean that they have some sort of biological imperative not to name themselves; that is clearly not the case. What I mean by Biology is that no two Gargoyles look alike. Some may look similar (i.e. Demona and Angela) but even then they are different enough visually that it is impossible to confuse them.

In an extremely small community like a Gargoyle Clan names would not be that necessary to function; nobody is going to confuse one individual for another. Among Humans the visual differences can be much more subtle and it is harder to sometimes tell at a glance if that person is the same person your thinking of. (Lord knows how many times I've stared at someone from across a room and though to myself "that person looks familier but I'm not really sure. Do I know him/her?" Names help sort stuff like that out. With a Gargoyle that problem is non-existant. Nobody is going to mistake Angela for Demona. (Even Jason Canmore didn't.))

POPULATION SIZE - This ties into the first point that I made, that basically everyone looks completely different. Add to that the fact that Gargoyles Clans usually don't number more than forty. There aren't that many faces to remember. And before the population gets too large so that the need for a name would come up (with 80 or so Gargoyles names would become a necessity just for everyone to function - "Hey You" would get confusing) the Clan branches off with a good chunk of it going off to colonize a new area.

LOCATION - Most Gargoyle Clans are not only extremely small but they also live in isolation. Wyvern was in the middle of nowhere. Until Malcolm showed up the Gargoyles had no daily interaction with Humans. Humans do tend to be the push behind naming particularly when it comes to Gargoyles; on their own Gargoyles wouldn't really have to change the way they manage things.

Elisa after all was the main force for naming when Wyvern became the Manhattan Clan - once she won over Hudson the rest of the clan jumped on the bandwagon. If she hadn't been successful in convincing him then its doubtful the Trio would have jumped on taking names themselves. (And Goliath probably wouldn't have adopted Goliath as how he defined himself rather than what "you humans call me....")

You wrote: [Why is it resricting, as Hudson says it is?]

Its defining. Before he was Hudson he could be anything to anyone - Leader, Mentor, Love, Friend, Father, etc. Everyone and anyone could see him as they wanted to. And he could see himself as anything he wanted to.

After he took the name he became Hudson. He's still everything he was before he took the name; all the descriptions still apply. But now instead of anything and everything, he's Hudson. He's defined.

You wrote: [It seems the Wyvern clan didn't use names since the London clan had names and so did the Japanese clan and the Mayan clan. So perhaps this is a Wyvern thing.]

Maybe it is a Wyvern thing although there is the possibility that the Mayan Clan was the same way as the Wyvern Clan. It seems that in that Clan the only members with names were the pendant wearers and even then it was more a reference to the pendant than to the individual who was wearing it. The names only seem to have become permanent once the rest of their clan was wiped out.

Its possible that at one point the various Clans such as London and Ishimura didn't have names but then adopted them. Running a shop and teaching Bushido would seem to require that they take names to function with Humans.


DEMONSPAWN - You wrote: [Goliath was the only one who needed a name, since the people of Wyvern only dealt with him.]

Actually he didn't really take it as his name until he had been in Manhattan for a while. When Elisa first asked him who he was his reply was "My kind have no names but you Humans call me Goliath." The way he said it was like he didn't really accept the name or consider it to define him, that it was more an easier way for Humans to relate to him than something he used to describe himself. He only came to describe himself personally as Goliath later on in the series.

You wrote: [I have to agree, Princess Mononoke is good, but only if you watch the subtitled version with Japanese dialogue. The English language version is really, really bad.]

Actually I didn't think that the dub was bad. The original version is better but the dub on its own was a pretty good effort. Not every character came off great in the dub but the main cast (San and Ashitaka specifically) was solid; and you can't argue with Keith David as an angry Boar God. :-)


DEMONA TAINA - You wrote: [As the years passed, this belief that gargoyles didn't need names faded. No longer did it limit them, but it helped them tell each other apart, like Angela said in Avalon: Part II: "How else can we tell each other apart?"]

Actually Angela's saying in AVALON 2 and the fact that they had names was more because the Avalon Clan was raised by Humans than because they specifically adopted the idea of taking names. And they looked at the situation as Humans did, that names were necessary, because they were raised into the idea. Goliath possibly mentioning to them that names might be limiting would probably have been greeted with the same reaction that Elisa had in AWAKENINGS 3.

The "No Name" philosophy is something that seems to me to have faded more because of circumstance than because of desire. Most Clans who took names usually did so because of interaction with Humans. London needed names to be able to run a shop, Ishimura needed names to be able to teach Bushido, and Manhattan needed names to interact with Elisa (well ok they didn't NEED them but it made her life easier). We don't know if the idea was completely abandoned though - if Lock Ness has no contact with Humans then its possible they might have retained the philosophy. And the Mayans might have had it until their clan was devastated. A lot depended on the personal circumstances of the Clan in question although I think that not taking names is a dead idea if not completely so. It is a Human world after all and everything needs a name.


JOSH - You wrote: [The gargoyle tradition of not naming each other definitely keeps them socially even.]

That is a good point. Also the leadership/defining descriptions are interchangable. Goliath can be Brother or Leader or both at the same time but it doesn't have to apply to just him. Hudson can still be "Leader" even though the Clan would look to Goliath - he can still be described that way out of respect and perhaps because to a certain point Goliath always saw him as being his leader even when he had the power passed to him. Its a loose social structure with extremely fluid movement in it. I don't think that its something that could exist outside of a small family; a community using it would fall apart eventually. Since the Gargoyles would view themselves as a family more than a social community they have something else to bond them without the necessity for a solid class structure.


JIM R - You wrote: [Everyone's points about why the gargoyles DON'T choose names are valid ones, but I'm more interested in taking Elisa's standpoint: "It's just that...things need names."]

First - Everything DOES NEED a Name! :-)

I think that it comes down to a different definition of limiting. Gargoyles see a name as limiting (originally anyway) because they seem to see a specific name as only defining one thing. Leader is Leader, Brother is Brother, etc, and if you need another description to describe the person in front of you then you find another description for them. A name for them was just another description but one that prevents you from really using the others. Calling Hudson by that name means that while your not prevented from calling him Mentor or Friend, you generally don't and stick to that one description of him - just Hudson.

Humans on the other hand see names in a wider context. All those various definitions that they were using for themselves - Brother, Sister, Leader, Friend, Love - they all fit into that single name. Its not as limiting as it seems to a Gargoyle - it just doesn't state everything outright. When Elisa calls Hudson by that name, she is refering to all those various details about him - Friend, Mentor, etc - but its all in one compact form. It just makes things less apparent to a stranger than the outright description that the Gargoyles were using to describe themselves before.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, November 6, 2002 12:42:47 PM
IP: 12.88.162.211

Naming > Names are terribly important to humans. We invest pretty much the whole of our identities into it. Those of you who have seen Spirited Away ought to remember what a big deal having/remembering one's name was. When Chihiro lost her name and became Sen, she lost one of the only connections to where she came from, and without knowing where you've come from you can't know where you're going. That's what happens when you put so much importance on names.

Now gargoyles, on the other hand, do not define themselves entirely with names. Gargoyles are all about the clan community, their relationships with one another. That's how they define themselves, first and foremost. And because they do not place so much importance on names, it is much more difficult to take a gargoyle's identity away from them. They are what they are.


Scott Iskow - [smiskow@lycos.com]
Wednesday, November 6, 2002 01:24:39 AM
IP: 68.50.37.201

Naming> Mabye since Gargoyles are so clan oriented in their social structure, they refer to each other by their clan. For example: "Who discovered Aluminum?" "A wise Gargoyle from Ishimura." Perhaps they identify each other by their clan moreso than we would.
Jimmy
Wednesday, November 6, 2002 12:41:02 AM
IP: 199.74.80.243

Josh> <<any noun has a name>>

Well, I think Hudson draws the limit at that. He says, "Does the sky need a name? Or the river?" So identifying something is differant than naming it technically.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Tuesday, November 5, 2002 08:51:21 PM
IP: 66.169.210.231

Babs: the day people are blocked from asking stupid questions is the day I rule the world (and pigs fly, btw)

Jim: <<t's just that...things need names>>: That's right, *things* need names so we can identify them. But whether people need names is dubious. I could get by my whole life just calling my boss "Boss" instead of even *knowing* his actual names. By your point, we'd eventually reduce the language to grunting, because technically any noun has a name (go on, try posting without using any nouns, I dare ya!)

<<we wouldn't wouldn't know aluminum from unnilhexium>>: Sure we would. Aluminum only has 13 protons. We just wouldn't know who discovered either ;-)

Josh
Tuesday, November 5, 2002 08:24:55 PM
IP: 64.170.152.22

Names> Hmm...maybe the gargoyles just liked being called by "Hey you!" :)

Everyone's points about why the gargoyles DON'T choose names are valid ones, but I'm more interested in taking Elisa's standpoint: "It's just that...things need names." Besides, it's election day, so we can vote on it! ;) Just kidding.

Anyways, the truth is, without names, we wouldn't have the basis to build a basic syntax for our forms of language. We'd all be stubborn not to learn to read and Pictionary would be everyone's favorite game. Without names, we wouldn't wouldn't know aluminum from unnilhexium (106). Without names we'd all just sit around and point at each other. And without names, I'd be writing all my code in straight 1s and 0s because high level object-oriented (name-based) languages wouldn't exist, and I hate to say my binary isn't exactly 01110000011001010111001001100110011001010110001101110100. <:)

So, sure Hudson is right, "What's in a name?" Names do limit by breaking things down into a class structure, but structure is order and without order we'd be in chaos...either that or our minds would evolve new ways to think. Telepathy anyone? :)




BTW, just if anyone WAS wondering what the 1s and 0s do spell out, it's the word "perfect". Heh.

Jim R.
Tuesday, November 5, 2002 07:19:39 PM
IP: 65.164.17.57

I'm going to have to start wearing my glasses, or atleast shove my face against the screen and spell check mystuff before I send it :)
Babs
Tuesday, November 5, 2002 06:58:47 PM
IP: 68.80.98.67

Well I took a peek at what kind of questions this site got in the Ask Greg, and well this site is starting to round up some dumb ppl, and what makes it even worse they pots as many questions as they can, and later come back saying that were never answered. I'm no computer qiz, but is there anyway that those type of ppl can be blocked from either A) this site or B) asking stupid and pointless questions that have nothing to do with Gargoyles or anything Greg did. ?
Babs
Tuesday, November 5, 2002 06:56:20 PM
IP: 68.80.98.67

Names - Another thing that would influence names is the relation they had with the humans they protected, as well as the humans perception of the mystical nature of gargoyles. In Wyvern, gargoyles seemed to be created by magic, and since magic was the tool of the devil, gargoyles are inherently creatures of the devil. Naming them would only draw humans and gargoyles together, quite possibly corrupting the humans. In Ishimura, they were viewed either as gods, avatars of gods, or some kind of warrior spirits. I'm not quite sure exactly how they were seen, but I'm sure that it was in a good way, thus names would improve relations between the two races. Also, in ancient Japan it was a sign of disrespect to not give someone your name, which could be why they have names. It would be interesting to see how the name situation in other clans was handled in the past.

Mononoke - I have to agree, Princess Mononoke is good, but only if you watch the subtitled version with Japanese dialogue. The English language version is really, really bad. Additionally, if anyone likes Princess Mononoke, I recommend any other Miyazaki or Studio Ghibli movies, such as Totoro, Laputa, etc.

DemonSpawn
Tuesday, November 5, 2002 02:11:21 PM
IP: 130.111.42.26

Names> I just assumed they thought it was silly human custom that most of them just didn't get into. They probably never came up with the idea of proper nouns, and when humans came by they thought it was wierd that they called each other by name.

Mononoke> I watched Princess Mononoke yesterday and i have to say, it was a quality flick. I highy recommend it and it really would have had a shot at the mainstream if only it was ever marketed.

Jimmy
Tuesday, November 5, 2002 01:36:00 PM
IP: 199.74.80.243

oh yeah, forgot to mention this.

I lost my cell a few weeks ago down in Brownsville (about ten hourse away from where I am presently); so my mother sent me a new one. To make a long story short, I saw there was a composing feature on it, sooooooooooooo, I now have the Gargoyles theme song for my ringer >:D. mwahahahaha
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Tuesday, November 5, 2002 10:51:29 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

matt> well, from the episdes we have seen, they referred to Goliath as "brother," "my leader," and "Goliath." Among Gargoyles, from what I interpret, the actual role of leader was only used when it was needed to be used. Like when they're just mozing-around, I doubt Goliath or any leader actually took charge the whole time, but rather became equal with the clan; only in battle or matters of security would I see the actual role of leader being used. The way I see it, if Goliath truly made his power above others, Othello would have never attacked him in 992 or 993 or whenever Iago decieved Othello.

As for impeaching a leader, I would think it would be a communal decision. Maybe the clan would deicde among themselves or would talk with the second-in-command. Other than that, I don't really see Gargoyles having ANY politics. They live without any social distinction (other than leader and second-in-command, but, as I said earlier, I think these are only used when called for), no classes, no privalages, and they seem to work together in mutual-aide, yet they still have a protectorate that they see as theirs. An obligation to protect seems to run among them, so can protection become a political matter among them?

I can't really say anything about how much freedom they have do what they want., i.e. would Goliath be too happy about Brooklyn shooting-up heroine in the middle of the castle :p.

names> Nice points of what has been said already. Names were used to promote social status, occupation, or anything else to make someone distinct, thus keeping them in that distinction. I have no doubt that if I lived in Old Spain, I would be almost forced into the military carrer there since my last name (Guerrero) is Spanish for "warrior." mwahaha, too bad I'm a pacifist now :p.

Anyways, Gargoyles seem to be heavily bonded by community and equality. What's interesting is that Gargoyles find an awesome balance between individualism and community. Names usually promote individualism. For instnace, a lot of what we teach today revolves around being yourself (not that this is bad or anything), and we usually say the cliche: "you are Gabriel, and only Gabriel can decide Gabriel's life" blah blah blah. A name radically cuts off myself from the Other (except for immediate family).

If you notice, when Goliath first meets Demona in Awakenings in 1994, he says "You!" The word "you" denotes the Other, or the non-self (obviously). So the clan still sees other, not-the-same (when I say "not the same" I mean other than myself) beings among one another.

The only other form of individual denoting among the clan is "brother" "sister" "leader" etc. However, the words brother and sister obviously are familial (DUH!) and have a strong sense of bonding. It's really brilliant, if you ask me: individualism and community are heavily interwoven with one another in these two words.. Even if two Gargoyles in the same clan aren't really related, they are still brother and sister and are still bonded together in a community that prizes no individual over another!

Well, not only did I NOT answer my own questions, but I sorta went into a totally differant direction with it <:D.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Tuesday, November 5, 2002 10:03:42 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

except that often in the Wyvern Clan, names didn't equalize them! we know Desdemona and probably many other Clan members refered to Goliath as, "leader" and probably did the same to Hudson before him, i'm sure they also called Demona and Goliath before her "second in command". having everyone more or less nameless except for the leader and his/her second in command didn't make them equal, it drew a line between those gargs in power and those not. of course, i'm probably exaggerating this a bit for sake of argument.
it does make me think of another question. how do gargoyle socio-politics work? we know that the Clan Leader chooses his/her Second who becomes Leader and so on, but can the Clan have a say in Leader? can they impeach a Leader or Second they don't trust or is there ever a vote?

also we need to remember that the individual gargoyle cultures are probably as varied as the human cultures they neighbor. in 994 the Wyvern Clan may be as different to the Ishimuran Clan as the people of Scotland and Japan were during that time... so Clan politics and naming issues may be very different from clan to clan. the English and Ishimuran Clans sound like they've been using names for a long time, but the Mayan Clan only has names for the 4 Pendant Wearers... naming is cultural.

matt
Tuesday, November 5, 2002 08:40:51 AM
IP: 207.230.48.29

Josh> That is a very good point that I never thought of. Names did indicate status a lot more than they could today. My mother's maiden name is Worthington and occasionally I've been asked if we're related to the Worthington fashion designers, but that's the extent of name status. With a few exceptions, names mean very little, unless you have a name like Rockefeller, Hapsburg, or some other unique polysyllabic name.

Of course, first names mean even less.


Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Camp Bondsteel, Kosovo
Tuesday, November 5, 2002 06:52:59 AM
IP: 136.216.75.6

Demona Taina's got a point, but only in light of this very important fact: at that point in history, names very much limited you. A name could tell which family you came from, your social/financial status, and/or your career. Not just titles like "prince" or "brother". With a certain lineage or family business, your social standing was affected. Names made people unequal.

The gargoyle tradition of not naming each other definitely keeps them socially even. Not a bad idea.

Of course now, names don't mean jack.

Josh
Monday, November 4, 2002 10:15:55 PM
IP: 64.170.155.136

Hello everyone! I'm Demona Taina. I've been lurking for a few weeks, and the question about why gargoyles didn't have names in the 900s interested me...

Why didn't they have names? Well, to me, it's very simple. Hudson himself said why: "Must you humans name everything? Nothing's real to you till you've named it, given it limits!" So, gargoyles believed that having names restricted them from being anything else. They believed that they didn't need names to be real, to exist, and that having names merely limited their personalities. So, they just referred to each other as leader, friend, brother, sister, etc. The only one that got a name was Goliath, of course, because he dealt the most with humans.

As the years passed, this belief that gargoyles didn't need names faded. No longer did it limit them, but it helped them tell each other apart, like Angela said in Avalon: Part II: "How else can we tell each other apart?"

So, you can see that gargoyle traditions have changed with the course of the years...

I hope all this made sense... [LOL]

BTW, does anyone know what Greg Weisman thinks about Toon Disney finally airing Deadly Force?
Demona Taina
Monday, November 4, 2002 09:44:23 PM
IP: 196.42.28.242

As Hudson himself said, " why do you humans have to name everything, give it limits" Since the Wyvern castle was Hudson Clan he probably made up the rule not to name themselves so they are all the same; or maybe he thoughtthat humans have names and he wanted to show that Gargoyles are not like humans so by not that,not having a name would make sure of that. I'm not
sure how Hudson felt when the humans gave Goliath his name. but I do agree that his name fits him well

Babs
Monday, November 4, 2002 06:50:25 PM
IP: 68.80.98.67

Silverbolt, I think I have to respectfully disagree with your third reason. I would think names would make them more equal, not less. But perhaps having names (and thus getting too close with the humans) might make them less scary. Additionally, it seemed like they were supposed to be a force of nature, not a mortal group of beings like humans are. Oh, not to mention the fact that most humans either hated them , or were afraid of them. Goliath was the only one who needed a name, since the people of Wyvern only dealt with him.
DemonSpawn
Monday, November 4, 2002 05:50:45 PM
IP: 130.111.42.26

I'm going to say they just didn't really need names back then (they seemed to be getting on fine without them) Now the reason the other clans had names was because 1. They came from different cultures (After all I think it was the Japanese clan that looked into their home instead of out, looking towards the sun) 2. it's a different time period where names are more important i guess. 3. Maybe not having names was a way of showing they were equal?

I think these are the most probable reasons anyway.

Silverbolt - [silverbolt2012@hotmail.com]
EnglandMonday, November 4, 2002 01:48:49 PM
IP: 213.122.91.249

I'd like to discuss Hudson's comment about names in "Awakenings part 3." I think we did it before, but I don't think we reached a good solid conclusion.

Why wouldn't gargoyles name themselves? Why is it resricting, as Hudson says it is?

In particular, it seems the Wyvern clan didn't use names since the London clan had names and so did the Japanese clan and the Mayan clan. So perhaps this is a Wyvern thing.

Anyways, I'm at work, so I'll post my thoughts on this later.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, November 4, 2002 10:53:03 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

10th! Woohoo.

Spacebabie> Happy Birthday!--1 day late.

Jim R.
Monday, November 4, 2002 09:04:22 AM
IP: 65.164.17.233

9TH!!!!!

barely made it and first time on the Top Ten in months!

matt
Monday, November 4, 2002 07:07:39 AM
IP: 207.230.48.48

I claim 8th in the name of cute fuzzy werewolf pups everywhere!
Silverbolt
Monday, November 4, 2002 02:58:06 AM
IP: 62.7.23.99

Eh, I'm here. 7th.
Josh
Monday, November 4, 2002 02:28:04 AM
IP: 64.165.203.162

6th. Yeah for me.
Princess Alexandria
Monday, November 4, 2002 01:04:21 AM
IP: 64.91.102.64

5th...
Knoxville - [knox@ketnar.org]
Monday, November 4, 2002 12:49:03 AM
IP: 208.54.204.248

forgot my e-mail
babs - [Barb018@hotmail.com]
Monday, November 4, 2002 12:05:09 AM
IP: 68.80.98.67

If I was on time I guess I'd be 4th. :)I'm making a site, and I'm in the Garg section now,so that means if anyone has a Garg site and would like me to add thier link onto my site, of course you would do the same :) just gemme an letter with your name and address, if your site has a little icon, I would be coping that and making that the link for my site. My site isnt up yet, but when it is i'll be sure to drop in and say so

Babs
Monday, November 4, 2002 12:04:38 AM
IP: 68.80.98.67

Third maybe?
Greetings fromt he great city of Westrcih

Jenna
Monday, November 4, 2002 12:03:31 AM
IP: 65.56.186.61

Second?
Bud-Clare
Monday, November 4, 2002 12:02:39 AM
IP: 24.169.113.216

FIRST!!!!
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, November 4, 2002 12:01:18 AM
IP: 66.169.210.231