Comments for the week ending November 18, 2002

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Edge> "I didn't mean for you to take my statements as a personal affront..."
I'm sorry if I jumped down your throat a bit, but this has been a bit of a sore spot with me lately...

"it was just my general thoughts, not an attempt to correct you. We each have different opinions about what the Eye is and what its powers are."
_That_ was what bothered me. There is actually only a small difference in our opinions on the subject, but you didn't notice that. You took a single sentence of mine out of context and decided that, based on that sentence, you knew what I thought about the subject, and proceeded to disagree with me. Which would have been fine, except that at least 95% of your "different" opinion was actually the same as mine. I obviously don't mind when people agree with me, and I usually don't mind when people disagree with me, but I get cranky when people think that they're disagreeing with me a lot more than they really are.

A few years ago, we had a debate here involving time loops. Two people spent the better part of a week debating some tiny little nuance of the subject. They each wrote _pages_, trying to explain their positions and the reasoning behind them. Towards the end of the week, I got the horrible suspicion that the two of them were _not_ arguing at all. After reading the whole debate, it looked to me very much like each of them meant his words in a _slightly_ different way than the other person understood them. In a normal conversation, such tiny differences in meaning have no impact, but with the ridiculously complicated subject of their debate, these _tiny_ little shifts in meaning were enough to make them absolutely certain that they were disagreeing, when that very well may not have been the case. The point of this story? If you were to write a paragraph or two describing your opinions on a certain subject (any complicated subject, such as religion, or a pysch evaluation of Demona :P), and posted your opinion for 100 people to read, there would be 101 different beliefs about what your opinions are. You would have your own beliefs as to what you actually meant, plus 100 other people would have their own beliefs about what you meant, and none of them would be the same. The difference would not be on the _validity_ of your opinions, but on the actual _content_ of your opinions. Yes, you could divide those 100 people up into groups of people whose beliefs are so similar as to (usually) make no difference, but similar is not identical. Again, the point of all this? This is the kind of thing that I think about... all the time. Every time two people believe that they disagree, but don't really, or believe that they agree, when they don't, it drives me slightly mad. ...I'm going to try to sum up quickly before you throw something at me... The whole communication thing is monstrously complicated, and when you really, really think about it, it can be fairly maddening, so that's why I sometimes gets snippy with people and they don't know why. It's not their actual opinions that I have a problem with, it's that there are communication problems that are really causing me stress (even though I _know_ that getting stressed out about it is counterproductive). And I realize that you didn't want to know any of that, and probably have no idea what I'm babbling about anyway, but I just needed to try to explain, because it's been a issue lately. So, basically... I'm slightly crazy. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Airwalker> See above.

Edge & Airwalker> I probably will continue the actual Eye discussion later, now that I actually have a fair idea of which points we actually disagree on. I _do_ enjoy debating nuances, once it's clear which nuances actually need to be debated.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Saturday, November 16, 2002 07:11:44 PM
IP: 24.169.113.216

Yeah, I agree with the similarities between the Eye of Odin and the One Ring as well. But there are just as many differences as well.

Odin traded the Eye for wisdom. Sauron had his Ring taken from him.

The Ring itself desired to return to the hand of its master, the Eye did not seem to be trying to get back to Odin. In fact Goliath almost slayed Odin with it. Wheras the according to the letters of Tolkien, should Sauron have approached anyone that was wielding the Ring (such as Frodo, or even Aragorn, Saruman or Gandalf the White), they would not be able to withhold it from him, and even if they could, they could not use it to best him in combat (makes me wonder how Tolkien had envisioned a battle between Sauron against Elendil and Gil-galad, yeah they both died taking him down but still...)...

What it comes down to, I always thought of the Ring as a living thing while the Eye on the other hand never gave me that impression.

And I just had a weird image of Fox refering to the Eye of Odin as "My Precious." ;)
Greg Bishansky
Saturday, November 16, 2002 07:07:27 PM
IP: 216.179.2.164

AIRWALKER - I agree with you about the similarity between the Eye of Odin and the One Ring; I'd noticed that long before, myself. With the additional parallel that, in both cases, the original owner wants it back since much of his strength passed into it, so that he became weaker when it left him. (Although, on the other hand, Odin wasn't a power-mad Dark Lord out to conquer the entire planet once he got his eye back, and returning the Eye to him proved the right thing to do).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, November 16, 2002 06:50:04 PM
IP: 65.57.59.58

BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [Yes, it _is_ unlikely, but unlikely things _do_ happen on occassion, by definition. The odds against it may be one in a million, but that means that it _does_ happen one time in a million (or billion, or whatever). ]

Theoretically, yes, the Roman Magus could be one of those one in a million chances where the Eye of Odin's amplification of a personality trait will be positive. I didn't mean to give the impression that its impossible, just that I don't think that its likely; if there is a one in a million chance that it'll go that positive way, it also means that there are 999,999 in a million chances that it'll head in the usual direction. :-)

You wrote: [Why is it that two different people are claiming that I said two totally different (and nearly opposite) things, _both_ incorrectly?]

I didn't claim that you said anything and nowhere did I say you were incorrect. I didn't intend for my post to sound like I was putting words in your mouth. I was just trying to emphasis the fact that no matter how benevolent it seems when the Eye is put on that its still projecting negatively even from what may seem like a positive beginning.

You wrote: [What I said is that given that the wearer put the Eye on at point-in-time A, and that the wearer became corrupt at point-in-time C, and given that during the period of time between points A and C the wearer is under the influence but not yet totally corrupt, then it's theoretically possible that a wearer might decide to remove the Eye before they actually become corrupt.]

The way I see it is that the Eye takes the approach that every individual is corrupt in some sort of way and to some sort of extent. So the jump from point A to point C as you suggest is less about the Eye corrupting and more about the individual who wears the Eye allowing the corruption to become more manifest and visible. At point A, from the moment that they put the Eye on, they are already corrupted.

You wrote: [Fox is actually a very good example of this. She was wearing the Eye for a month, and only the werefox part of the time. If someone had come to her during one of her non-werefox times, and showed her evidence of what the Eye was doing to her and that it was killing her, how would she respond? Maybe she was far enough in denial that she'd refuse to believe it (some kind of denial was obviously going on, since she kept waking up naked and outside all month long without saying anything about it), but it's quite possible that she'd be shocked enough to take the damn thing off.]

If she knew that it was killing her the odds are good that she probably would have taken it off no matter what. But without that information (which Xanatos didn't have until late in the game since he only got it in EYE OF THE BEHOLDER and she had been transforming for a while prior to that) I don't think that she would have really taken it off. She is intelligent enough to have figured something out before Xanatos confronted her and tried to take the Eye. But its power (and her desire for that power) had a hold on her that kept her wearing it.

I think that the Eye of Odin is similiar to Sauron's ring in LORD OF THE RINGS; its power calls out to you and once you have it on, its very difficult to remove even if you have manage to get the willpower to resist it. (Look at the time Goliath had trying to take it off first Fox then the Archmage and finally himself.) None of the cases we have seen with the Eye have the person wearing it want to take it off. Fox resisted, the Archmage obviously didn't plan to lose it and constantly resisted attempts to take it, and Goliath kept making excuse after excuse.

You wrote: [Hell, Goliath _did_ remove the Eye of his own free will. He just needed a kick in the ass first.]

True; but he did have a hell of a time taking it off. :-) If he wasn't as strong as he was its questionable if he would have been able to remove it or if the Eye would have overpowered him. After all Xanatos and Angela were unsuccessful in all their attempts to rip the Eye off from whoever was wearing it at the time.

You wrote: [And you think that my theory is unreasonable? Goliath proved that some people only need a sudden dose of perspective to realize what it is that the Eye is doing to them to make them choose to take it off.]

I don't think that your theory is unreasonable; but the perspective Goliath got was that he thought that he almost killed his daughter, a daughter that he had started to accept as a daughter only a very short time prior to this episode. Thats not a a slight realignment of perspective. Thats a radical shock that gave him a moment of clarity and its only the the fact that he acted swiftly that kept the Eye from reasserting itself. (Fox had a sort of similar moment when she attacked Xanatos and was almost about to kill him in the meat packing factory - a moment of clarity that stopped her and that she didn't act on which gave the Eye time to do its thing.)

You wrote: [You are making assumptions about how the entire population of the world (past, present, and future) would react to the Eye based on three examples (Goliath, Fox, and the Archmage).]

I can only base what I know from what I've seen. In all the cases so far it hasn't really started well and it hasn't really ended well. Everything else beyond that and in particular with the Roman Magus is just speculation which I hope makes for an interesting discussion. :-)

You wrote: [No, it's the only thing influencing _your_ view of him.]

Well its not like we really have anything else to base any view of him on. All we know is the story of a Roman Magus who cast a Modesty Spell on the Gargoyles for all times. Everything else beyond that is speculation.

You wrote: [_I_ only suggested that the event might have convinved him that it wasn't a good idea for anyone to have that much power. _I_ know that we have no information on which to base opinions of him. I only stated one possibility.]

True; Again I didn't intend for it to come out as if I were putting words in your mouth. All I know is that everything short of saying that he cast a spell is speculation. I got the impression largely that the view in general here is that the Roman Magus is thought of as a largely benevolent figure due to that spell and its benevolent effects. I was just trying to bring up another possibility, that he might not be as good as I perceived the common "fill in the blanks of what we don't know" perception to be.

You wrote: [Maybe he took the Eye off the Magus by force, but since that's pretty much what happened to the Archmage, it might be kind of redundant.]

At this point I kind of wonder how differently the Roman Magus might have combined the three artifacts (if he did combine them at all)? Would he have taken the same route as the Archmage or is it possible that there might be another way to do it that we haven't figured out yet, one that wouldn't require eating the Grimorium? (If he did the combination in a different manner then Brooklyn taking the Eye by force isn't as redundant.)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, November 16, 2002 04:11:11 PM
IP: 12.88.162.215

Bud-Clare> I didn't mean for you to take my statements as a personal affront... it was just my general thoughts, not an attempt to correct you. We each have different opinions about what the Eye is and what its powers are. What I meant was that I think the eye amplifies traits, but not always to a corrupted extreme. As you've said yourself, there are just not enough examples to be certain about the Eye's nature. For example, I think that Goliath's transformation simply brought to the surface what was already brewing inside him. I don't see his actions as a corruption of protection, but rather an amplification of other emotions: fear of losing those he loved, revenge against those who would threaten his clan, anger at being betrayed by those he cares for, and the overwhelming sense of responsibility for keeping power out of the wrong hands.

Another thing that I consider is that of the four beings who posessed the Eye, the two who underwent dramatic and dangerous changes were the two without any magical ability. (Or controllable ability, in Fox's case.) It's possible that those with an understanding of magic can control the Eye, whereas those without magical ability become overwhelmed by its power.

Anyway, as for the Roman Magus and his personality/motivations, none of us really know. I personally think that he was both wise and pragmatic; knowing the power of the artifacts, I doubt that he would have used them more than a handful of times, and I think he would have given them up willingly. But all we have to go on is that he cast the Spell of Humility and he probably wrote the Grimorum Arcanorum. We don't know his motivations, and any ideas about the Eye's effects on him are just conjecture. Nobody's ideas are more right or wrong than anyone elses in this respect.
Edge
Saturday, November 16, 2002 03:48:05 PM
IP: 130.126.65.81

Airwalker> "Unlikely. Except for Odin the eye has had negative consequences for every single person who has used it/put it on."
A) yes, it _is_ unlikely, but unlikely things _do_ happen on occassion, by definition. The odds against it may be one in a million, but that means that it _does_ happen one time in a million (or billion, or whatever).
B) Yes, it does have negative consequences for everyone. That's what I said. Why is it that two different people are claiming that I said two totally different (and nearly opposite) things, _both_ incorrectly? What I said is that given that the wearer put the Eye on at point-in-time A, and that the wearer became corrupt at point-in-time C (which can't actually be quantified, since corruption is more of a scale than a specific value, but the significance of "C" is really just that it is a point that is not equal to "A"), and given that during the period of time between points A and C (whether that is seconds, minutes, hours, etc., depending on the wearer in question) the wearer is under the influence but not yet totally corrupt, then it's theoretically possible that a wearer might decide to remove the Eye before they actually become corrupt. Fox is actually a very good example of this. She was wearing the Eye for a month, and only the werefox part of the time. If someone had come to her during one of her non-werefox times, and showed her evidence of what the Eye was doing to her and that it was killing her, how would she respond? Maybe she was far enough in denial that she'd refuse to believe it (some kind of denial was obviously going on, since she kept waking up naked and outside all month long without saying anything about it), but it's quite possible that she'd be shocked enough to take the damn thing off. Hell, Goliath _did_ remove the Eye of his own free will. He just needed a kick in the ass first. So, even though he was already well along the path of corruption, he still chose to remove it. And you think that my theory is unreasonable? Goliath proved that some people only need a sudden dose of perspective to realize what it is that the Eye is doing to them to make them choose to take it off. In Goliath's case, Angela contrived to give him that dose of perspective, but under other circumstances it could have come without someone planning it.
C) You are making assumptions about how the entire population of the world (past, present, and future) would react to the Eye based on three examples (Goliath, Fox, and the Archmage). That's a vastly insufficient sample space for reaching conclusions about everyone who ever lived.

"In fact you can even include Odin as having negative consequences from originally having the eye since the only way he was able to gain wisdom and improve himself was through its removal."
No, you can't include Odin. The Eye was the price of gaining wisdom, not the reason for his previous lack of wisdom. It's a completely different situation.

"Aside from the fact that he cast the Modesty Spell on the Gargoyles we have no information on him. That spell is the only thing that is influencing our view of him."
No, it's the only thing influencing _your_ view of him. It had nothing to do with mine. _I_ only suggested that the event might have convinved him that it wasn't a good idea for anyone to have that much power. _I_ know that we have no information on which to base opinions of him. I only stated one possibility. I made no assumptions about his reasons for casting the spell, and I didn't even suggest any _possible_ reasons why he might have done it.

"What if Augustus had ordered him to turn all Gargoyles to stone permanently? And who says that he took a good point of view on the spell?"
No one says that, that's my point. You're making assumptions that _I_ made assumptions which I _didn't_ make.

"I don't know about that - if he was using the Eye of Odin and it was necessary to get it off of him, wouldn't that be kind of a good excuse to get someone to timedance in and get that done?"
Yes, that's possible. I never said that it wasn't. All I said was that _maybe_ it wasn't forcibly removed from him, _maybe_ he removed it himself. Both are possible.

"Greg did mention Brooklyn would come across the Roman Magus eventually. Why bother to do so unless he had some sort of reason to be there, some sort of story that has to be told? Something like dealing with an Eye enhanced Magus?"
Maybe Brooklyn would have done what Angela did for Goliath... shock him into seeing what he was in danger of becoming. Maybe he took the Eye off the Magus by force, but since that's pretty much what happened to the Archmage, it might be kind of redundant. Not entirely, since presumably the Magus would realize that it was for the best (and he didn't eat the Grimorum), but... we have no way of knowing what happened.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Saturday, November 16, 2002 01:41:50 PM
IP: 24.169.113.216

BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [Hmm... the Eye usually has a bad effect on people, but isn't it possible that every once in awhile, it happens to augment a trait that has a good effect on the person?]

Unlikely. Except for Odin the eye has had negative consequences for every single person who has used it/put it on. In fact you can even include Odin as having negative consequences from originally having the eye since the only way he was able to gain wisdom and improve himself was through its removal.

You wrote: [If such a circumstance really were possible (and I think that it's likely, although it'd obviously be _extremely_ rare), then the Roman Magus is certainly a good candidate.]

Why? Aside from the fact that he cast the Modesty Spell on the Gargoyles we have no information on him. That spell is the only thing that is influencing our view of him. But his casting of the spell, while benevolent in influence, didn't exactly happen because he got the urge to do something good for the race of Gargoyles. He was ordered to do so by Caesar. What if Augustus had ordered him to turn all Gargoyles to stone permanently? And who says that he took a good point of view on the spell? His behavior could have been negative and paternalistic in nature in terms of how he acted towards Gargoyles and in relation to the Spell.

You wrote: [The talismans were obviously gotten away from him somehow, so barring the possibility that someone managed to kill him to stop his rampage, it seems likely that he gave them up willingly.]

I don't know about that - if he was using the Eye of Odin and it was necessary to get it off of him, wouldn't that be kind of a good excuse to get someone to timedance in and get that done? :-)

(Greg did mention Brooklyn would come across the Roman Magus eventually. Why bother to do so unless he had some sort of reason to be there, some sort of story that has to be told? Something like dealing with an Eye enhanced Magus?)


EDGE - You wrote: [For the Labyrinth clan... Maybe they have full-spectrum / UV lighting installed? There are technological ways to sidestep the problem, even in the current time period for the clones.]

I'm sure that there are plenty of technological ways to sidestep the issue except for the fact that in the Modern Time period the Labyrinth Clan is extremely poor and cut off. They aren't exactly living off the Xanatos payroll at the time of THE RECKONING. And even later on it would be difficult for them to swallow their pride and take any help from him all things considered.

You wrote: [Or perhaps the clones spend some days outdoors. We don't know that they are underground all the time.]

They could spend the day outside although post HUNTERS MOON that would be dangerous. Again its not like the Mutates have the resources Xanatos has. The Gargoyles can sleep outdoors at the Castle without worrying if they are going to be smashed; outside of establishing a constant daylight guard for the Clones, the Labyrinth doesn't have the ability to offer the same safeguards as Xanatos.

You wrote: [It is rather disconcerting. But the world is full of disconcerting ideas. There aren't always checks and balances to keep everything right.]

I realize that; I'm just saying that even knowing that its still a bit unnerving when I sit down and think about it. The Fey are in the same boat concerning the power and ability to do the same thing but I don't get the same vibe when I consider what they are able to do. Maybe its the more hedonistic lifestyle they pursue; maybe its being a former History Major thats influencing my feeling towards one HUMAN getting that much personal power without a way to keep it check. Even war wouldn't be much of a guarantee; after all lets not forget that Goliath came pretty close to losing to the Archmage on Avalon - he got lucky that his opponent was well, a complete dumbass.

You wrote: [if it weren't for the carelessness with which he lost the Eye, I don't think anything could have stopped him from enslaving the world.]

I don't know about that - wouldn't the Sisters have to step in after he wipes out the Avalon Clan just to make sure that Oberon doesn't find out about what they did? And eventually wouldn't Oberon get personally involved when he eventually decided to go home ala ILL MET BY MOONLIGHT? The Archmage didn't have much of a chance even if he hadn't screwed up his own chances of winning against the Avalonian Gargoyles.

And then there is the question of how easily he could have enslaved the world even without Fey interference. Lets not forget that the Gargoyle Universe is more technologically advanced, at least in private if not in public. And thats without taking into effect normal well known conventional modern weapons. I don't know if the Modern world would be such a pushover. Not to mention that its a dumbass with no head for strategy that they would be dealing with - casualties would be massive but it might be possible to win. With the Roman Magus it could be possible that we would be dealing with someone who could think and plan. The situation would have been massively different in that case. And besides what would the Roman Magus be facing? A Centurian with a sword and a spear? (And the Fey wouldn't get involved with the Roman Magus - he wouldn't be on Avalon and operating from the real world is a recipe to get the Fey not to get involved. What interest would the Sisters or Oberon have if he were running amok in the real world?)


VASHKODA - You wrote: [Greg did say he was considering having thermal energy be the real energy source gargs use from the sun. If that's the case, all they need is to be left near a radiator during the day, or maybe a steam pipe.]

That would be a good solution but if they need to absorb HEAT then wouldn't that sort of imply that the Gargoyles are cold blooded when from all appearances they seem to be warm blooded?

I'm not against the idea although it would probably make life a bit easier for the Gargoyles. I think that its more interesting if they are a race that can't really have the option of long term underground habitation without magical or technological intervention. It strikes me as more interesting if they are more tied into the overall outdoor environment than the other two races and not so much have to live outdoors (since technology can now compensate) but are more inclinded to do so.


TODD - You wrote: [Truth to tell, I rather like the idea of a series of graphic novels continuing where "Gargoyles" left off.]

I think that at this point this is my prefered option for series revival. Not that I wouldn't be happy with a TV or OVA revival, its just that it might be more sustainable in GN format than it would be in todays animation market (i.e. everything outside of CN's Adult Swim) due to S&P differences between the two formats and also because the number of required audience between a TV show and a GN are massively different.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, November 16, 2002 12:09:23 PM
IP: 12.88.162.215

Edge> "... does it? I believe that the Eye simply amplifies the natural tendencies of the wearer."
...Did you actually read my post? Because I don't think it says what you think it says.

It (from everything we've seen, and everything Greg's said) amplifies one specific trait of the wearer: Goliath's protectiveness, Fox's self-loathing, the Archmage's desire for power... Goliath's trait was obviously not a negative one, but taken to the extreme, it became very dangerous. Some wearers would have positive traits amplified (like Goliath), while others would have "negative" traits amplified (like Fox), but the end result would be pretty much the same in all cases. There is no one trait so good that it doesn't have the capacity to become bad, if it becomes too extreme. That's why people have lots of traits, instead of just one. :P

"And Oden himself has said that its standard gift is insight."
Yes, insight into one's own nature. If you want _general_ insight, read a book.

"I'd say that the Eye is neutral or even beneficial by nature, but that it doesn't necessarily do what's best for the wearer."
Kindly refrain from assuming that I haven't a clue.

"the Eye could simply have made him more pacifistic, pragmatic, and genuinely benevolent."
It would be nice if a person could just pop on a magic talisman and become a better person, but life doesn't work that way. Even pacifism, pragmatism, and benevolence can and would be corrupted by the Eye. Such a person would become convinced that they know what's best for the whole world, and they'd try to force "world peace" on everyone... but it wouldn't be _real_, so the people would fight it (rightfully so), and the more people fought against it, the crazier the wearer would get... a lot like Goliath did.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:53:26 AM
IP: 24.169.113.216

Eye of Odin> i agree with Bud-Clare. i don't think the Eye always has a negative effect. i don't think Fox or Goliath are bad people, and i don't think the Eye magnified the worst of them. what the Eye did was cause them to lose control. looking back, it seems that the Archmage maintained the most control over the Eye, though he had the Grimorum to help, i suppose. in some ways wearing the Eye has much in common with becoming an Avatar as we saw in Grief, but its almost like becoming an Avatar gives someone more insight than wearing the Eye. as soon as the Emir became an Avatar he knew he needed to stop being one ASAP, the Eye works just the opposite.
now i'm just rambling...
matt
Saturday, November 16, 2002 09:30:41 AM
IP: 207.230.48.32

AIRWALKER - Plus, there's the advantage that graphic novels are much more durable than television programs (yes, you can tape a television program, but a graphic novel is even more convenient). Truth to tell, I rather like the idea of a series of graphic novels continuing where "Gargoyles" left off. Of course, the real work will be in convincing the Disney administrators that they'd be able to sell.

Regarding the Roman Magus - well, we don't know for certain that he actually did use the three magical artifacts in conjunction (although it is a reasonable assumption, given that he had to have gotten the ability to impact every gargoyle on the planet - and we know that there are gargoyle clans in places that the Romans never even heard of, such as Mesoamerica - and that Greg mentioned that somebody must have done it before the Archmage, to give him the idea for that particular combination).

But the Roman Magus could have indeed managed to successfully withstand the temptations of that power and voluntarily surrender it. He was no doubt much wiser than the Archmage (whom, actually, I suspect to have been not too bright, given that he'd never even decided what he was going to do with all that power when he got it, and even had to be nudged into the obvious Cliched Villain Objective of Taking Over the World).

(As a side-note, it's worth pointing out that Odin wasn't negatively affected by the Eye the way that Fox, the Archmage, and Goliath were - after getting it back, he even apologized to everyone for the trouble that he'd caused - of course, it was his eye, had originated with him, and maybe that would account for it).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, November 16, 2002 07:23:09 AM
IP: 67.28.92.94

Greg> Thanks for passing that on!

Gargs underground> Greg did say he was considering having thermal energy be the real energy source gargs use from the sun. If that's the case, all they need is to be left near a radiator during the day, or maybe a steam pipe. =)
Vashkoda
Saturday, November 16, 2002 02:08:12 AM
IP: 129.98.123.136

Jimmy> "Isn't Greg color-blind? He probably just saw Coldstone's skin as gray."
Red-green color blind. It has no effect on blues (except for maybe blue-greens, which this isn't). If he misremembered, it's just because the two colors aren't all that different, so it'd be easy for them to blur together after awhile.

True.
Jimmy
Saturday, November 16, 2002 01:27:20 AM
IP: 199.74.80.243

Airwalker> For the Labyrinth clan... Maybe they have full-spectrum / UV lighting installed? There are technological ways to sidestep the problem, even in the current time period for the clones. Or perhaps the clones spend some days outdoors. We don't know that they are underground all the time.

Bud-Clare> "the Eye usually has a bad effect on people" ... does it? I believe that the Eye simply amplifies the natural tendencies of the wearer. Fox became more predatory; Goliath's protective and vengeful impulses were taken to the extreme. It granted the Archmage the power and self-control he wanted to absorb the Grimorum. And Oden himself has said that its standard gift is insight. I'd say that the Eye is neutral or even beneficial by nature, but that it doesn't necessarily do what's best for the wearer. To know the Eye's effect on the Roman Magus, we would have to know his character traits; the Eye could simply have made him more pacifistic, pragmatic, and genuinely benevolent. On the other hand, perhaps it was corrupting him, but he was strong enough to understand that and give it up willingly.

Airwalker again> I get what you're saying about the implications of a man so powerful he could force his will on an entire race. It is rather disconcerting. But the world is full of disconcerting ideas. There aren't always checks and balances to keep everything right. Heck, the only reason the Archmage doesn't rule the Gargoyles universe is because he had too much pride - if it weren't for the carelessness with which he lost the Eye, I don't think anything could have stopped him from enslaving the world.
Edge
Saturday, November 16, 2002 12:46:50 AM
IP: 130.126.65.81

Airwalker> "But he was still wearing the Eye of Odin; it doesn't add confidence in the judgement of the Roman Magus when you consider exactly what kind of an effect the Eye has had on everyone else who has worn it."
Hmm... the Eye usually has a bad effect on people, but isn't it possible that every once in awhile, it happens to augment a trait that has a good effect on the person? It generally doesn't corrupt _immediately_, so there's a brief period of time after putting on the Eye when the wearer is... more himself, but not yet corrupted. I'm thinking that on _just_ the right person, who has _just_ the right personality, before reaching the point of corruption the influence of the Eye would cause the person to realize that they ought to take the Eye off immediately. If such a circumstance really were possible (and I think that it's likely, although it'd obviously be _extremely_ rare), then the Roman Magus is certainly a good candidate. The talismans were obviously gotten away from him somehow, so barring the possibility that someone managed to kill him to stop his rampage, it seems likely that he gave them up willingly. Maybe after casting the modesty spell, he realized just how much power he had, and how dangerous it was, and he chose to give up the power, before he caused any harm.

Need sleep... can't type straight...
Bud-Clare
Friday, November 15, 2002 10:41:03 PM
IP: 24.169.113.216

Jimmy> "Isn't Greg color-blind? He probably just saw Coldstone's skin as gray."
Red-green color blind. It has no effect on blues (except for maybe blue-greens, which this isn't). If he misremembered, it's just because the two colors aren't all that different, so it'd be easy for them to blur together after awhile.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Friday, November 15, 2002 10:14:43 PM
IP: 24.169.113.216

EDGE - You wrote: [I think you're right on the money with your remarks on solar energy and sleep. Greg has hinted that staying underground would be very bad for a Gargoyle's health.]

So that opens up the question of how the current Clone Clan can function and how it is possible to even have a Labyrinth Clan in G2198?

You wrote: [While it's an awefully big spell for the average human spellcaster, the Roman Magus was quite a bit stronger than that.]

My problem is not how he did it but that he was able to do it. When the Fey start widespread spellcasting its also objectionable but at least with them there is some sort of check and balance in the form of Oberon and his laws. (Yeah its not much and Oberon can be a bit of an ass but its better than nothing.) With a powered up Human you don't have that sort of safety net - He or She can do literally anything without limit. The loss of free will and control is a little disturbing when I think about it.

And of course if the Roman Magus is doing this with the Eye of Odin, the Phoenix Gate, and the Grimorium then it opens up all sorts of other questions like how trustworthy could his judgement be if he was wearing or dealing in any way with the Eye of Odin? Its a discomforting idea that just because Augustus had his sensibilities offended that he had his Magus cast a spell that has a permanent effect on an entire race. It was a useful and benevolent spell ultimately but still its a bit disturbing with how much ease such a thing was done.

You wrote: [And the Magus was ten times the spellcaster and none of the fool that he was.]

But he was still wearing the Eye of Odin; it doesn't add confidence in the judgement of the Roman Magus when you consider exactly what kind of an effect the Eye has had on everyone else who has worn it.


JIM R - You wrote: [Well, since I've only watched 3 episodes in Japanese, I can't say for sure, but even though I've heard many others (brought up on the Japanese version) mention the English dub for InuYasha is bad, I can't see why.]

I don't think that the English dub is horrible (which is what every INU YASHA fan I know happened to scream and rant at me when it comes up in conversation); its actually not a bad effort for a VIZ release. Its just that its missing something that the original Japanese has - its hard to describe, its more of a tone the Japanese Voice Actors give the characters that is tackled differently by the Dub Actors.

You wrote: [Maybe I'm just biased against sub-titles, but the English version seems to make the series more comical and fun to watch in that traditional American sort of way. :)]

The INU YASHA dub does give it a slightly less serious feel than the Original Japanese has. Its a valid interpretation for the dub to make but I think that I prefer the more dramatic take of the Japanese version.


MATT - You wrote: [If he hadn't been benevolent, he would've been much like Demona casting her Fulfillment Spell in Hunters Moon.]

Actually the Fulfillment Spell wasn't being cast over the Human Race; it was being cast to bond DI-7 with CV-1000 to create a virus that would wipe out Humanity. It would have had as wide an effect as the Modesty Spell ultimately if it had been successful but it wasn't anything like what the Roman Magus did.



GREG WEISMAN - You wrote: [But it should give you an idea of where we stood on the Marathon.]

Its looks good in that your source mentions outright that it did very nicely for them. But is the demographic breakdown that it gives encouraging in terms of getting someone at Disney to get the show back on the air or at the very least to do something with the show?

It did well with Girls 2-11, Teenagers 9-17, and went over very well with Adults but those aren't exactly the main demographic that Disney tends to focus on. According to the e-mail the show lost out big on the the holy grail of Disney demography - Boys Age 2-11.

So would they focus overall on the success of the show in the other demographics or just dwell on the lost Boys 2-11? Are they interested in getting the other demographics that they did get on a permanent basis, particularly the upper Teenage and Adult Demographic?

What direction would Disney like to go in these days? Would they want to start some competition with Cartoon Network in getting the older audience or do they want to stick to the old pattern that they know and tend to dominate best?



Would it be a good idea perhaps to try and pursue show revival in Graphic Novel format? I've been reading about how Tokyopop has been establishing connections with Disney (specifically in their release of the MONSTERS INC manga and more recently in getting the rights to release the DIGIMON manga - click my name to get the paragraph info on it). Perhaps this would be the right angle to approach the series revival from.

(Tokyopop is currently largely into reprinting Japanese Manga mainly but they did have that search a short while back for American Manga artists which could suggest that they want to produce and publish something original or at least domestically produced.) It could reach a larger audience and while we would lose the animation and vocal work we all enjoy so much we would have a vehicle for the series to continue. And on top of that Tokyopop only releases Graphic Novels rather than 32 page comics that dominate American comics.

I just keep thinking if the current S&P would really allow for the shows revival together with the fact that Disney might not get the specific demographic that they tend to shoot for (not to say they wouldn't get an audience, its just that they might not get the specific one they want - if they got an audience largely made up of girls and adults would that make them happy or just sigh that they didn't get the boy 2-11 demographic?). With a GN all the considerations shift (not to mention that the S&P wouldn't be as restricting as it currently is - you could get away with the same S&P level as 1994 at the very least).
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, November 15, 2002 10:06:34 PM
IP: 12.88.165.101

Greg Weisman: Hi! I'm Demona Taina. I've asked a couple of questions at Ask Greg and, well, let me just say this again: I LOVE GARGOYLES! Thank you for creating such a wonderful show that has captured my heart for eight years! Anyway...

I'm glad to hear that the marathon did so well! Do you think this has... well, motivated Toon Disney and Disney itself to do more for the show?
Demona Taina - [demona3@hotmail.com]
Friday, November 15, 2002 07:41:30 PM
IP: 66.50.81.160

FYI - Thought you'd like to see the following correspondence between myself and Toon Disney. It's edited to remove actual Nielson numbers at TD's request (to avoid legal problems w/Nielson itself). But it should give you an idea of where we stood on the Marathon.

-------

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Weisman
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 1:08 PM
To: [Toon Disney]
Subject: Gargoyles Marathon

Hey [Toon Disney],

Sorry to bother you again, but I was kinda curious how the Gargoyles Marathon did in the ratings relative to what you guys usually program in those time periods. Did it perform well for the channel?

Thanks,

Greg Weisman

-----

Subject: RE: Gargoyles Marathon
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:44:23 -0800
From: [Toon Disney]
To: Greg Weisman

hi Greg, no bother at all. the marathon did very nicely for us. below is our research group's ananlysis. let us know if you have any questions.

best,
[Toon Disney]

-----

This Halloween, Toon Disney aired a Gargoyles Halloween Marathon (M-W 3p-12a & Th 3p-3a), featuring all 78 episodes of the series. The marathon increased its total viewers... versus last year and... versus the prior four-week average and increased the time period's ratings among girls 2-11 and girls 6-11. Among key kid demos, Monday and Tuesday earned the highest ratings overall. Adult ratings and audience composition were up versus the prior four-weeks and, with adults 18+ comprising a little over half of the total audience during the marathon.

Ratings Highlights

The Gargoyles Halloween Marathon... earned its highest ratings... among kids 2-5..., kids 2-11..., and girls 2-11....

Versus the prior four-week time period average, ratings were up among girls 2-11... and girls 6-11..., causing the kid 2-11 and kid 6-11 ratings to remain even despite dips among the key boy 2-11... and boy 6-11... demos.

Tween 9-14 ratings were up... versus the prior four weeks..., while teens 12-17 remained even....

Adult 18+ ratings doubled versus the prior four-week average....

The Gargoyles marathon improved the year-ago time period in homes..., and kids 2-5..., but basically declined versus the year-ago average in the remaining key demos.

----

Audience Composition


Over half of the audience was composed of adult viewers..., significantly up versus the prior four-weeks... and year-ago... percentages which were virtually even.

The marathon was comprised of a lower percentage of kids 2-11... and kids 6-11... from the prior four-weeks and year-ago time periods, due to a dramatic loss of boys 2-11 and boys 6-11 and an increase in adults.

In fact, most of the key kid demos percent compositions dipped from the time period histories except for girls 2-11... and girls 6-11..., which remained even versus the prior four weeks and slightly down versus last year.

Greg Weisman
Friday, November 15, 2002 03:32:08 PM
IP: 67.224.7.20

Topic of Coldstone's skin... yes, I got confused by the wording of the question/response in the archive. His skin was originally blue. It's quite possible that Greg forgot this, or always thought that it was gray.

Airwalker> While it's an awefully big spell for the average human spellcaster, the Roman Magus was quite a bit stronger than that. Here's a clue from the Ask Greg archives... "Gidpac" asks how the entire gargoyle race was affected, since the target usually has to see or hear a component of the spell. Greg's reply: "Most magic has that requirement, but some spells are more powerful. Particularly when you combine the Grimorum with the Eye of Odin and the Phoenix Gate."

Remember that the original Magus already had a strong natural talent for magic - he *wrote* the Grimorum Arcanorum. Stories of his power are what inspired the Archmage.

"What if he hadn't been as benevelent?" Well, consider what the Archmage could have done. And the Magus was ten times the spellcaster and none of the fool that he was.
Edge
Friday, November 15, 2002 03:29:28 PM
IP: 128.174.243.38

Edge> Coldstone> "His gray appearance comes from the stone itself, not his natural skin color, which was also gray." actually his natural skin color was a light blue...

Isn't Greg color-blind? He probably just saw Coldstone's skin as gray.
Jimmy
Friday, November 15, 2002 01:21:51 PM
IP: 199.74.80.243

Airwalker> "I was never really happy with the Modesty spell to begin with, mainly because it put way too much power in the hands of that Roman Magus. He had the power and ability to cast a spell over an entire race - what if he hadn't been as benevolent?" if he hadn't been benevolent, he would've been much like Demona casting her Fulfillment Spell in Hunters Moon. remember that spell was over more than just a species, that spell was over all intelligent life!

Edge> Coldstone> "His gray appearance comes from the stone itself, not his natural skin color, which was also gray." actually his natural skin color was a light blue...
matt
Friday, November 15, 2002 12:49:21 PM
IP: 216.178.8.120

Another biology/biotechnology topic, eh?

Jimmy> "Well, if every cell is Goliath's body spontaneously absorbed a nitrogen atom that would be 14/(6.02*10^23) grams times every cell in his body." Avogadro's number! (sigh) Man, and I was really, really trying hard to forget high school chemistry class. I can't believe I remembered that...

Well, let's ask Greg how many cells Goliath has, then we can solve the equation and be one step closer to understanding life in the Gargoyles universe! Heh. :) Say, and while I'm at it, I'm interested in knowing the clock speed of Coldstone's processor. ;)

Seriously, one could write a book on the really strange or odd questions to be answered in the garg universe...

Matt> I think your theory sounds good. Other than butterflies, I'm wondering if there's any other species out there that are slightly comparable to gargoyles and what happens to them if they get smashed while in stone hiberation? I'm pretty sure if I thought about it long enough I could think of one oddity...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vash> "Is there an ETA for your new site? I'm still waiting to see those vidoes." Well, it's quite amazing I've found some time to work on just that this weekend. I was planning on it before you asked. For once in a long time, I've got nothing else to work on or due soon. =) Please forgive me! This semester has been very pressuring... I've got a prototype made, but it will probably change some.

Airwalker> "I think that all things considered the series is pretty good - the animation quality is well done, the voice acting (in Japanese) is excellent (its alright in English but the Japanese is much much better)".

Well, since I've only watched 3 episodes in Japanese, I can't say for sure, but even though I've heard many others (brought up on the Japanese version) mention the English dub for InuYasha is bad, I can't see why. I don't think it's that bad at all either. Maybe I'm just biased against sub-titles, but the English version seems to make the series more comical and fun to watch in that traditional American sort of way. :)
Jim R.
Thursday, November 14, 2002 10:53:29 PM
IP: 65.164.19.93

On the topic of Coldstone, I went through the old Ask Greg archives (the unsorted ones) and found a spot where Greg deals with the nature of Coldstone's body. He has no flesh, only cybernetic parts and stone. The stone is reanimated by magic, in the same way that Puck created the moving stone figures of Renard and Anastasia in "The Gathering". (His gray appearance comes from the stone itself, not his natural skin color, which was also gray.)

For stone sleep in general, I'm also inclined to believe that we can't explain it with our current understanding of biology. But there isn't necessarily magic (magik?) involved - perhaps it is just a new class of biological reactions that have never been seen in other species. Cells that can control the rate of their own metabolism and waste production, chemical processes to crystallize/restore the cytoplasm, etc. These things are indistinguishable from magic anyway, since we don't understand how they work yet. But they don't necessarily lie outside the realm of science.

Airwalker> I think you're right on the money with your remarks on solar energy and sleep. Greg has hinted that staying underground would be very bad for a Gargoyle's health. A few days wouldn't cause much of an effect. But continuous living outside of the reach of the sun's rays would probably cause gargoyles to lose their strength, heal at a slower rate, and be less resistant to disease. Also, I imagine that those gargoyles would need to eat a lot more than others to sustain themselves.
Edge
Thursday, November 14, 2002 04:51:17 PM
IP: 130.126.65.81

AARON - You wrote: [I dunno, overly high expectations, maybe. I was really hoping the anime would be *more* than the manga, not a watered-down version thereof.]

Thats probably why I'm not as disappointed; I expected INU YASHA to be a more or less straight out toned down adaption of the manga and not much more. Like every other Takahashi manga that has been animated. I think that all things considered the series is pretty good - the animation quality is well done, the voice acting (in Japanese) is excellent (its alright in English but the Japanese is much much better), and they have stuck as close to the manga as the were able to. Now all I have to see is how they handle the filler in the later episodes - I'm curious if the quality stays even or if it becomes like Rurouni Kenshin S3.

You wrote: [I liked CN's Gundam Wing dub. C'mon man, Scott McNeil as Duo "Rattrap" Maxwell. What's not to like?]

I just don't like Gundam Wing in general; I found the characters outside of Duo Maxwell to be completely unsympathetic and the philosophy that they kept mouthing in the entire series to be complete and utter nonsense. What they were actually saying sounds a little better in Japanese but in English it sounded like nothing but gibberish.

The animation was good though.

(And yes, Scott McNeil did do a good job voicing the only sane, normal character in the series. And at least Duo managed to get the cool Mobile Suit even if he didn't really get any of the glory.)


STONE SLEEP - I just don't think that it can be explained away with conventional real life science as we know and understand it. I keep throwing in Magic as a possible fill in the gap suggestion but the problem is that Magic comes off as a bit artificial which contradicts what Greg says about how "Stone" Sleep is an entirely natural process.

The thing to consider is that there is a difference between Magic which is what Wizards, Sorcerors, etc use and which is best illustrated in this discussion by the Roman Modesty Spell and Magik which is just the raw natural energy force that the various Wizards, Sorcerors, etc tap to produce those spells.

Magic would be artifical but Magik wouldn't be. Magic is a use of Magik. So "Stone" Sleep would be a function that developed as a result of that Magik having an influence on Gargoyle Evolution. Its the only way I can think of that can explain how a living being can turn to some completely solid stone like substance for the daylight hours.

Otherwise there really isn't any other way to explain it; we can come up with explinations on what good Stone Sleep is for (which is really what Sevarius did) and we can try to figure how it is that if they are completely solid then what triggers the wakeup at nightfall (I personally think that since they are still organic that something still functions of the cellular level that accounts for dreaming with a rock solid head and the ability to wake up) but there really isn't a scientific way to explain how a living being can completely transform into a completely different but still organic substance (and turn solid inside out on top of that) and then turn back.


ERIC - You wrote: [I recall an idea that Gargoyles could be rejuvinated while they sleep by the sun's radiation.]

It would seem to fit but the real question is wouldn't that make it impossible for any Clan to live underground in the long term? For a while it could be possible as Gargoyles can go for a period of time without turning to Stone outdoors (i.e. Broadway in THE SILVER FALCON) but would a Gargoyle Clan such as the Labyrinth Clan be able to function living underground almost on a permanent basis?

(The Moray Clan (Demona's Scotish Patchwork Clan) did live in Caves for a time but they seem to have spent their daylight Sleep period near the mouth of the cave where they managed to be exposed to sunlight; the scene where Crone Demona is about to be smashed has its mood set by the fact that the setting of the sun can be seen on her physically in that the daylight was covering her and then started to receed as sunset occurred. So that seems to suggest that even living underground or in caves that they need some long term access to sunlight or at least to the radiation thats coming along with the sunlight.

And while Demona doesn't turn to stone anymore, her choice in secret hideout design - a platform with high, wall towering windows - seems to be almost subconsciously influenced by her old sleeping habits.)

I think that this possible difference, that Gargoyles might be a bit forced by biology to be outdoors inclinded, is a bit interesting. It would mark them off as even more distinct from Humanity than they already are. And it would make how Gargoyles and Human society approach Urban design a bit interesting. We see some influence in Demona's Nightstone hideaway but how would that be on a citywide scale?)

You wrote: [I wonder what's up with Demona and the whole being human during the day thing. But to answer that we merely look back and respond with the "magick loophole" to answer that question.]

Here we are applying the artificial magic loophole; Puck's spell probably does compensate for what Stone Sleep would have done. I imagine that if Demona were wounded that when she transforms either way that the spell would reset her in the same way that Stone Sleep would have done for her. Greg has mentioned that she now needs to get a little sleep which I think is less for recharging purposes and more for the dreaming aspect. I imagine that she gets fully reset to full power when she transforms and doesn't really need to sleep but that she chooses to sleep. But the question here is would she need to sleep alot or would an hour or two cover the dreaming bit?


VASH - You wrote: [One might be able to bend that definition if you point out, as Airwalker did, that back when the gargoyles first came into being, magic *was* a big part of nature.]

My idea is that Magic is technically still a strong part of the environment of the Gargoyles Universe. After all Avalon has to come from something. Magic is something extra that exists and has influence on development in the Gargoyle Universe and that doesn't really have a real life counterpart. Its like an extra development in that version of the Universe and is a strong part of nature and the natural development in that Universe.

I think that it might be possible that when Gargoyles were evolving that magic might have been less defined and more apparent and influencing in the environment. And that when it came time for Humans to evolve that the environment had changed and so the natural magic had less of an effect. But the magic would still be natural and so would the Gargoyle development.

You wrote: [I wonder if maybe he'd accept the compromise that before the Roman sorceror's spell, it was only the gargoyle's skin that turned to stone during the day.]

I think that this would only complicate matters.

I was never really happy with the Modesty spell to begin with, mainly because it put way too much power in the hands of that Roman Magus. He had the power and ability to cast a spell over an entire race - what if he hadn't been as benevolent? If this had been a Fey spell it wouldn't have been more acceptable but perhaps more understandable. It leaves the Gargoyles powerless and being tossed left and right by anyone with enough power. (And while it was a good spell and I'm sure that the Gargoyles were happy with it, still its not like he really asked all of them or even as many representatives as he could find if they would allow him to do it; he just does it.)


COLDSTONE - I always figured that Xanatos just fit the "Stone" to cybernetics in places where they had to connect and let magic take care of the rest. Just because we only saw Demona cast one spell that night doesn't mean that she wasn't in on the project from the beginning - other spells may have been cast that we didn't see to make the cybernetic/"Stone" attachments possible.

Also Coldstone's "flesh" parts are way too flexible to have remained completely in daylight "Stone" default mode. And when he is described later in the series to the Pack, he is packaged as a Cyborg more than anything else. He'd be more of an animated statue than a Cyborg if his "flesh" parts weren't flesh or at least fleshlike.

He is described by Demona as "Cold Stone brought to life" because that is what he literally is. He was Cold "Stone" bits that have been reawakened, brought to life but not BACK to life. He's still dead and so are the "flesh" parts that make him up. They are just now able to function which implies a transformation of some sort to them to get that. After all a "Stone" Gargoyle isn't exactly flexible. Like DemonSpawn said, he's sort of a Zombie if not in the most strict term of the word.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, November 14, 2002 03:56:10 PM
IP: 12.88.162.109

<<Coldstone>> But Coldstone did turn back from stone, when he was reassembled, and put cybernetics in place of the missing pieces. It seemed to me that the sole purpose of Demona's magic was to bind his soul back into his remains. Essentially, Coldstone is a zombie. And besides, it would be really hard for him to move if the non-cybernetic pieces of him were stone.

<<Stone Sleep>> We should also consider the possibility that we simply can't explain how they change. I mean, there's still things about people that they don't understand yet (like everything). One thought, though, is what temperature gargoyles are in the sun. Heat = energy, so if they're cool to the touch after a full day of sun...well, they have to be using it for something.

<<Advanced tech>> You have to remember that almost all technology is discovered by either universities or companies, and Xanatos has a heck of a lot of money. Plus, we do have rudimentary forms of those technologies. The lasers were particle projection cannons, we have railgun technology. The government's still working on battle armor. Cloning is fairly accurate, and the development can be speeded up somewhat. We also have gene therapy.

<<Inu Yasha>> I haven't seen it, or read the manga, but generally the manga is more detailed than the anime. Manga can pack a lot of stuff into one volume, more than even a movie can usually fit. So, stuff has to be cut. Look at Nausicaa if you want a prime example. They had to entirely re-write the script to have it make sense in the 2 hours they had.
DemonSpawn
Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:22:04 PM
IP: 130.111.42.26

Gore> We've already established that it isn't actual stone they're turning into. Falling back on the "real world rules don't apply" excuse is, of course, the easy way around this (though hardly any fun). But Greg's already said that it's a natural process, not magical. One might be able to bend that definition if you point out, as Airwalker did, that back when the gargoyles first came into being, magic *was* a big part of nature. Barring that, what we've been doing is trying to find way for the sleep-process to make sense according to the rules we know, given the evidence presented in the show and what Greg's told us. As Matt pointed out, the biggest stumbling block is explaining how the entire body can turn to 'stone'.

Matt> It's as good a theory as any. Greg does suggest that we come up with our own explanations whenever biology questions stump him in AG (though I always have wondered if that would break the 'no original ideas' rule). Still, when Ask Greg returns, someone should definitely bring this up again.

I wonder if maybe he'd accept the compromise that before the Roman sorceror's spell, it was only the gargoyle's skin that turned to stone during the day. That would leave the basis of the 'turning to stone' thing a natural phenomenon, but allow for the spell to have further altered this process so that the entire body in and out, as well as hair and feathers, could now exist as 'stone'--granting them extra mass that is made magically light and does not impede biological function.

Old Kathy> You just had to make matters more complicated, didn't you? ;)
Vash
Wednesday, November 13, 2002 09:48:21 PM
IP: 129.98.31.184

Matt> <<Star Trek is in the future, Gargoyles is in the present>> Albeit a present with laser weaponry, mechanized battle armor, quasi-sentient AI, biotechnology able to totally remake people on a genetic level, and cloning tech sufficient to clone (and artificially mature) complex animals about which almost nothing is known. :)

Airwalker> <<SHINESMAN in Japanese for example is good but in the dub is Hillarious.>> The Berserk dub is worth it just for the out takes. Like hearing Gatz say "What you talkin' about Willis?!?"

<<Why do you consider Inu Yasha to be such a disappointment? I understand that it is toned down in terms of graphic violence from the manga but the story is still solid and follows the manga pretty closely in terms of plot>> I dunno, overly high expectations, maybe. I was really hoping the anime would be *more* than the manga, not a watered-down version thereof. Or maybe it's just the only anime I've seen where I'd read the manga first, so I haven't had any real surprises, (good ones anyway) combined with a constant, nagging, "well, that was cooler in the manga" feeling. It's by no means an Episode One level disappointment, or even an End of Eva one, but it's not the beautiful, Fellowship of the Ring level wonderful execution that I hoped it would be.

<<Ewwww.>> I liked CN's Gundam Wing dub. C'mon man, Scott McNeil as Duo "Rattrap" Maxwell. What's not to like?

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Wednesday, November 13, 2002 06:03:42 PM
IP: 66.142.70.253

Gargoyles Turning To Stone:

Greg Weisman has stated that Gargoyles do not turn to stone but rather the matter of their body changes into a substance very much like stone.

In Awakenings we see for fact that gargoyles are this material throughout as Hakon smashes several. Later Goliath returns and we see the "rocks" that were formally Gargoyles and it is very clear they are completely solid.

My guess is that the thin outer skin that is left behind when the Gargoyles awaken at night is more or less a waste product of the Gargoyles stone sleep. This is probably similar to the process snakes go through when shedding their skin.

Keep in mind real-world physics don't neccessarily apply to Gargoyles' stone sleep. This effect was at least augmented by a sorceror back in the Roman times to keep their closes from being shredded when they bust out of the stone sleep.

When in doubt, there's the magick loophole. It's not like Oberon's children must live within the laws of physics. Why should gargoyles?

Now I can't remember if this was a Greg Weisman statement or a theory someone else put forth, or something I came up with while plotting out a never-written fanfic, but I recall an idea that Gargoyles could be rejuvinated while they sleep by the sun's radiation. That radiation could be used to power the creation of new cells to heal wounds and provide the extra sustinence (power) needed to maintain the super-strength they have.

If this idea is canon (which I think it might be) I wonder what's up with Demona and the whole being human during the day thing. But to answer that we merely look back and respond with the "magick loophole" to answer that question.

Bah, that's all I've got at the moment.
Eric - [eric@s8.org]
Wednesday, November 13, 2002 04:33:18 PM
IP: 192.207.57.14

How about throwing Coldstone into the equation? If I remember correctly, Coldstone is still stone. He was never turned back into flesh during the process, hence the name.

In constructing him, Xanatos would have had to connect the cybernetics to something internal; unless that's where Demona's magic came in to play.

Old Kathy
Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:17:58 AM
IP: 198.31.97.254

the crux of this whole problem is that we have every reason to believe that at sunrise only a thin outer layer of gargoyle skin turns to the stone like material but when a garg is smashed they are internally stone as well...
my guess is at sunrise a thin shell is of hardened waste products and dead cells is forced to the surface of a gargoyle's skin. this shell protects a gargoyle from the elements (rain, etc.) but still allows energy to be absorbed and stored for later use. in effect, the stone shell becomes very similiar to a butterfly's cacoon. if you break open a butterfly's cacoon before it is ready however you'll find a partially metamorphosized caterpillar and it'll probably die soon after.so its outside is hard, but its inside is soft. maybe a gargoyle's internal structure during the day resemble's its outer structure but is in fact a different substance. maybe it looks like stone but is more alive than we realize. so when a gargoyle turns to stone its outside layer is hard and shell-like but its inside is still living tissue, albeit in a slightly different form. when a stone garg is smashed these two types of stone garg tissue are more or less indistingushable from each other. probably, not long after being smashed the internal stone dies and hardens to more closely resemble the outer stone.
this is a theory that i thought might explain the process best, what do you guys think? i hope it makes sense to you, if not i'll explain better...
matt
Wednesday, November 13, 2002 01:38:58 AM
IP: 207.230.48.15

Essentially, this is the conflict as I see it:
theory 1: The gargoyles' entire bodies turn into a denser, more solid state at dawn
a) pro - Their bodies are compared to stone. Stone is more solid than flesh.
b) pro - When smashed, they cut in clean fragments and are shown to be composed of a uniform, homogenous matter. (when I asked whether they break in clean fragments, Greg replied, 'What does your observation tell you?'.)

argument 1: This would imply that the gargoyles gain more mass when they turn to stone
a) con - According to physics as we know it, mass does not spontaneously appear from nowhere. Since the gargoyles show no sign of inhaling/ingesting/or otherwise absorbing large quantities of something massive before they sleep, they should not change weight when they turn suddenly to stone. Input = Output.
b) con - There is no evidence in the show that strongly suggests they have gained weight as stone. In fact, there are cases that would argue against it (see various examples cited by others in CR).
c) con - Greg said their weight doesn't change.

argument 2: This would imply that all biological activity stops when the body turns entirely to stone
a) con - Some level of biological activity *must* be occuring to explain processes taking place during stone sleep. ex: wound healing, photosynthesis/energy storage, dreaming (unless it's an *entirely* spiritual and not biological activity), signalling/counting down time to sunset, etc).
(1) sub-argument: if these processes are indeed taking place, it would require delivery of nutrients and oxygen and signal molecules and the removal of waste products and other signals, in a somewhat timely and regular fashion. This would require a liquid medium such as blood. However, being solid stone, a sleeping gargoyle has no circulation - of either air or blood. This means cells undergoing any level of activity would either starve or die from waste product accumulation.
b) con - Greg said that to some limited extent, biological processes are going on inside these cells when the body is 'stone'.

So there you have it. An even greater paradox than time travel ...except in the GU of course. ;)
Vash
Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:40:13 PM
IP: 129.98.31.102

Didn't Greg say a long time ago that there actually should have been some nasty bits when gargoyles are smashed? I'm pretty sure he did, and that would certainly help, because there really isn't anyway to explain how they could be solid "stone." (Plus... they shed the skin when they wake up, but that's just a thin outer layer. If they were solid, what happens to the rest of the "stone"?) I think that Greg said that the skin that is shed is basically the waste product of the transformation, and that it gradually works its way out towards the skin. (This makes sense... The shed skin, while thin, isn't so thin that it could be entirely made up of the "stone" that covers their skin as they fall asleep. They couldn't just spontaneously gain several millimeters of "stone" on their skin, but if it slowly gets thicker as they sleep... that works.) Maybe all of their cells do undergo the transformation, but not all at once. If the transformation only lasted a fraction of a day on a cellular level, there could still be enough non-"stone" cells at any given time to still perform their necessary functions.

*L* Anyone got a cell sample of a sleeping gargoyle handy? ;)
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, November 12, 2002 07:08:02 PM
IP: 24.169.113.216

Vash> Oh... I think we have different understandings of what 'stone sleep' is. I have always thought of it as much more than just hibernation - a type of suspended animation, where all biological processes stop. No blood, no hormones, no nothing. I though that this is why gargoyles age at half the rate of humans - they age at the same speed during the night, but don't age at all during the day. As for "where does the water go", there are many ways to crystallize water. For example, there is a rather interesting chemical in disposable diapers... it can turn water into a crystallized solid with only one part per thousand. But when exposed to chlorine, it immediately dissolves back into water and a harmless chlorine compound.

(Sorry I couldn't pick a color, but I figured if everybody else stops posting in white... ;)

Edge
Tuesday, November 12, 2002 04:43:42 PM
IP: 130.126.65.81

All that white hurts my eyes. O.o

Edge> "The stone-like natural substance is biological, probably cell-based". Okay. But that still doesn't explain how oxygen and hormones and signal molecules goes in, while waste products and other signal molecules go out. You need a medium, like blood, for this to happen. But when a gargoyle is smashed, you don't see them oozing with blood. Despite the fact that water makes up a large percent of an animal's body mass, the liquid in gargoyle bodies mysteriously disappears when they turn to stone. So how would a cell, which is still carrying out biological processes, not die from nutrient depletion or waste product build-up over the course of the day? As for dreaming, yes, it usually deals with memory, which would require access to those neurons. Unless gargoyles don't dream but go through some kind of astral projection, which as you said, is possible. And the 'automatic timer' is possible, except that it doesn't explain how 'dead cells' can change without outside help. And that's a whole other discussion that I'd rather leave alone.
Vash
Tuesday, November 12, 2002 02:47:12 PM
IP: 129.98.123.136

Modesty Spell> How about this...anything that is within an individual gargoyle's genetic code would be turned to stone before the modesty spell. This means, that hair, feathers, etc WOULD be included, but clothing would not.

Simple? maybe?
Siryn - [<--Vote! Only 3 days left!]
Tuesday, November 12, 2002 02:31:00 PM
IP: 66.66.98.101

D'oh, forgot my color. There, that's better.
Vash
Tuesday, November 12, 2002 02:25:18 PM
IP: 129.98.123.136

Matt> Hibernation is one thing--you never completely shut down. If you did stop blood flow completely, unless you're well preserved at subzero temperatures, your appendages would begin to rot (like what happens after severe frostbite, or late stage diabetes). I don't see blood flow happening -at all- during stone sleep, because as everyone's mentioned, the whole body is solid. Cells don't last that long without oxygen. So how would a gargoyle survive the day?

Airwalker> The 'magic in nature' theory provides a good compromise to Greg's insistence that gargs are entirely natural beings. Now if only we could get him to admit it was true.... =P

Jimmy> "its a cartoon, how scientific an explanation do you need?" I thought the whole point of this discussion was to look for a scientific explanation. Or try to. "Gargoyles have to gain weight in the stone sleep since they become harder (density increase) yet the volume stays the same". Actually, was it ever proven in the series that they became 'harder'? Did anyone ever try punching a gargoyle as stone and realize it was more painful than when they were flesh? (you know, that old gag). Just because they look like stone doesn't mean they're as solid as granite. They could be quite porous, which would account for their weight remaining unchanged. But of course, that would mean they'd crumble rather than breaking cleanly when smashed. So now we're back to square one. "there must be a reasonable amount of weight gain. So I just said that maybe their pores start absorbing air". Barring Airwalker's magical interference rule, this wouldn't work. Air just isn't that heavy. If you were to fill a life-size balloon of Goliath with air, how heavy do you think it would be, excluding the weight of the rubber?

Vash
Tuesday, November 12, 2002 02:24:50 PM
IP: 129.98.123.136

Oh, and the hair thing ... while you could go for all sorts of explanations, my personal favorite is that gargoyles were all bald(!) until the spell of humility was cast. The biological roots for hair existed, but never survived the suspension/reanimation process. This also helps explain the total lack of body hair / eyebrows / etc. Of course, this theory is a disaster for Griff and other feathered gargoyles. I guess you could claim that there's a normal skin layer undeneith all the fluff, and that the feathers came as a bit of a shock once the spell was cast. Hrm, I like that idea. Could make for a decent vignette if someone else wants to write it.
Edge
Tuesday, November 12, 2002 02:18:50 PM
IP: 130.126.65.81

Vash> "If the whole body turned to 'stone', their blood would stop pumping and no oxygen would get into the cells, essentially preventing them from functioning. So how do you send a signal across the body telling it to change back into flesh and bone at dusk? How do you get neurons to fire and let you 'dream' while you're stone?"

The stone-like natural substance is biological, probably cell-based even though it has a texture like hard rock. So it stands to reason that there are still small biological processes going on inside the individual cells, even though no blood is flowing, etc. The cells could have natural chemical timers that run out simultaneously, triggering the reanimation process.

Dreaming, consciousness, and that sort of stuff gets more into the mystical. Do you really think that dreams are just neurons firing? Or is there more to consciousness than just brain patterns? Is the mind the same thing as the brain, or is there something deeper at work, like the soul? Those questions are of the kind that philosophers and religious students will debate until the end of time. I don't think people will ever explain the nature of dreams. So it's best left unanswered for Gargoyles as well.

Oh, and Hi everyone... long-time Gargoyles fan de-lurking.
Edge
Tuesday, November 12, 2002 01:51:20 PM
IP: 130.126.65.81

Jimmy> "Well, if every cell is Goliath's body spontaneously absorbed a nitrogen atom that would be 14/(6.02*10^23) grams times every cell in his body"
*L* You want to calculate that for us? ;)

I would love to, if only I knew how many cells were in Goliath's Body.

Vash> Well, the Nitrogen thing was a joke, sorft of, but it was supposed to illustrate a point. Gargoyles have to gain weight in the stone sleep since they become harder (density increase) yet the volume stays the same. So there must be a reasonable amount of weight gain. So I just said that mabye their pores start absorbing air and causing some sort of reaction (possibly a photosensitive one) that turns them to stone. Far-fetched, yes, but hey, its a cartoon, how scientific an explanation do you need?

Jimmy
Tuesday, November 12, 2002 01:16:53 PM
IP: 199.74.80.243

VASH - You wrote: [Matt is right, if they weigh a certain weight right before dawn, their weight can't realistically change only a second later when they turn to stone]

I have no doubt that in terms of real life science that Matt is a hundred percent right. But there has to be some sort of leeway in dealing with the concept of Stone Sleep transformation. Its not something that within the Gargoyles Universe sits completely upon the bedrock of science. Magic is an natural element in play here and it can throw off scientific calculations.

You wrote: [(where would the extra mass come from?]

I figured that they might gain something internally. After all the smashed Gargoyles that we have seen don't have the outline of organs and such that just happened to turn to stone - they are solid inside, like if they had been carved out of a large stone slab.

You wrote: [Then again, a lot of things that happen in the GU aren't realistic in 'our world', and your magic-in-nature theory may play a part in this).]

I don't think that a completely scientific explination can fill the gap since the Gargoyles Universe has an extra element in its natural setting that we don't calculate into our real world science - Magic. Its really just a form of energy but its something that is present and unique in their universe that will shift any calculations that we try to make.

I strongly think that since Gargoyles developed the earliest of all the mortal races the enviroment and situation might have been different and so might the magic in that environment. Its possible that this difference led to the evolution of Stone Transformation and Sleep, something which doesn't exist for Humans who developed later when the magic in the environment might have changed. Trying to use a pure scientific explination that can't account for that random, unknown magical element can cause difficulties in calculations.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, November 12, 2002 12:40:20 PM
IP: 12.88.162.51

Vash> don't be so hard on the stone hibernation many animals do things very similiar and i'm not just talking microbes and bacteria, etc. theres a frog that literally freezes at winter and thaws out in spring. when it thaws out it slowly regains its functions (nueral activity, heart rate, metabolism) and MANY animals use hibernation to one extant or another. even humans in a crisis shut down all blood flow and nueral impulses to non-crucial body parts while only supporting the most needed parts (heart, lungs, brain) after the trauma the body often can reestablish the body to its natural form.
so, i'm willing to suspend my disbelief on the stone hibernation, many animals and plants can hibernate, but no living thing can change its weight in a few seconds without ingesting or inhaling anything...
matt
Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:37:36 AM
IP: 216.178.8.55

Poge> awww, I hate to see you give up that cel - I always think of you when I see that pic of Lex, from the days you used to post here. Good luck with the moving troubles *hug*.

Demonspawn> We aren't talking a few simple chemical reactions here. We're talking about a *system-wide* change of structure. And that still doesn't explain where the mass comes from. The nitrogen thing was a joke (at least I hope it was). Nothing you could breathe in could affect your weight that drastically, especially not in so short a time. It takes you a few seconds to take a deep breath of air. Ok, now how much has your weight changed? Even if you were to take a few swallows of something solid, it barely changes anything (unless you swallow hot lead, maybe. But I don't see the gargoyles doing anything like that just before sunrise). <<Also, mass does change when density does, if the volume remains the same>> I didn't say the density changed, I said it was rearranged. You know, the mass getting shifted to the outside surface of the body to create the hard outer shell? Which isn't what happens either, since Greg said the entire body changed to 'stone', not just the skin. See, I could maybe see the latter happening, but not the former. If the whole body turned to 'stone', their blood would stop pumping and no oxygen would get into the cells, essentially preventing them from functioning. So how do you send a signal across the body telling it to change back into flesh and bone at dusk? How do you get neurons to fire and let you 'dream' while you're stone? You can't. I once tried getting Greg to explain it, and...well, I'm never trying that again. =P

Jim R.> Is there an ETA for your new site? I'm still waiting to see those vidoes. ;)
Vash
Monday, November 11, 2002 09:24:15 PM
IP: 129.98.31.102

(By the way ... that cel I'm selling in the post just below this one? The image is apparently the precise one used in the "Lexington" image that people may choose to post with, and with which I DID post below. Odd -- it's that very cel, it seems.)
Pogo - [pogo101@yahoo.com]
Monday, November 11, 2002 06:22:05 PM
IP: 66.121.56.234

Gargoyles Original production cel of Lex for sale. We may sell more later... but probably not. We're selling this because we also have to sell our house. :(

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=aimee&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25

or seller name "aimee" (my wife)
Pogo - [pogo101@yahoo.com]
Monday, November 11, 2002 06:20:06 PM
IP: 66.121.56.234

Remember, they usually take a couple of seconds (depending on the episode) to break out of their stone shell. Since they also take a couple seconds to turn to stone, I suppose it could be possible that their chemical structure (or whatever) could change. Also, mass does change when density does, if the volume remains the same, which in the case of the gargoyles, it does. So they would gain some weight, but how much would depend on the material that they changed into. The problem would be, where does the extra material come from?

Ammonia - Vampire bats (which are mammals) release ammonia in their urine, and older vampire bat caves are incredibly high in the concentration of ammonia (think the evaporated form of liquid ammonia and it's pretty close) and yet they're able to survive. Since gargoyles have bat wings, it could be that somehow gargoyles share some of the same genetics that bats do.

Additionally, they go into stone sleep, so what if they have some sort of chemical that builds up over time and causes the change? (Like seratonin in humans, is that the right chemical?) Additionally, it could mix with the, er, waste products in the blood, cause let's be honest, nobody ever discusses gargoyles using the facilities.

And what if they don't turn to stone immediately? What if it's a shell at first, and then the reaction goes inward over the course of an hour or so? Admittedly, gargoyles seem to be smashed right before sunset, which kinda cancels that theory, but still.

And man, am I rambling, but the discussion's got my brain all fired up. :)
DemonSpawn
Monday, November 11, 2002 05:55:08 PM
IP: 130.111.42.26

Airwalker> Matt is right, if they weigh a certain weight right before dawn, their weight can't realistically change only a second later when they turn to stone (where would the extra mass come from? Then again, a lot of things that happen in the GU aren't realistic in 'our world', and your magic-in-nature theory may play a part in this). And keep in mind that they don't actually turn into stone, but rather a 'stone-like substance', which doesn't necessarily mean it's as heavy as granite (it could be as light as lava rock, for all we know). The *density* may get rearranged when they turn to 'stone', but the overall mass, and thus weight, cannot. And even if the density were rearranged so that their outer skin was 'more solid' as you put it, it would mean that on the inside, they'd be even 'less solid' than normal. You can't just pull extra mass out of thin air (even if gargs *could* fix atmospheric nitrogen, which only microbes are known to do in our universe, the high levels of ammonia would probably kill them. Not to mention that the enzyme that catalyzes the reaction is sensitive to oxygen, which would be a problem in an aerobic creature).
Vash
Monday, November 11, 2002 05:23:31 PM
IP: 129.98.123.136

MATT - You wrote: [what? they were not solid before? is Goliath a gas or a liquid? partially, but not much, mostly solid.]

What I meant was that everything inside of them becomes completely solid - blood, organs, flesh, black stuff - all that turns into something that resembles solid stone. So I'm figuring that must add on some sort of weight. Not much, nothing tremendous, but there should be some difference.

You wrote: [and besides, where does that 20-50 pounds come from?]

It doesn't have to be that much; I only put that number forward as a suggestion. It could be as little as 5 pounds too but probably not more than 50.

The Stone Sleep process is a natural one meaning that it isn't the result of a magic spell but lets not forget that in the Gargoyles Universe magic is a strong part of nature. The natural magic present there probably did have some effect in the evolution of all the three races and could be a good explination for stone sleep. So ordinary biology and physics can't completely apply; some stuff is going to bend and stretch. I think that a flesh and blood being is going to be slightly different in weight than he or she would be when they turn into a completely solid inside slab of stone like organic material. Not a big difference - certainly nothing near a ton that the Trading Cards suggest - but still a difference.


BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [Ugh! I've been whacked upside the head by an evil nitpick! A gargoyle's hair couldn't turn to "stone," since it's no longer alive.]

I think that this is the point where if we can accept the idea that they can turn into some solid stone like substance for the day that we just accept that their hair is going to transform together with them.

(But if your looking for a possible explination then considering that I think that stone sleep in Gargoyles was due to the influence of the natural magic of the Earth (perhaps magic was stronger in the environment when they were developing) then we can always say that the natural magic found a way to compensate and thus their bodies found a way to get around it.

Alternately we could say that there was a branch of Gargoyles who had hair that didn't turn to stone but they lost out to the branch who's hair did transform and went extinct because uh.... well,..... cause they couldn't get dates due to perpetual bad hair days. :-) :-) )
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, November 11, 2002 02:22:19 PM
IP: 12.88.166.121

you know, when i think about it, alot of our bodies is not living cells and alot of a gargoyles body wouldn't be either, but i can't imagine them only partially turning to stone before the modesty Spell. so i think their bodies componsate for the nonliving body parts like hair, feathers, scales, horn, etc. i don't know though, and i can't imagine how... *shrugs*
matt
Monday, November 11, 2002 12:31:01 PM
IP: 207.230.48.5

Lady B- you're right, I was 6th. I brain blipped you'd come in as number one, and counted you twice when I saw your later post.

Gargoyles and hair -- Maybe Gargoyles were all bald before the modesty spell *^_^* heh... How would that affect things like feathers and scales? Thinking of the British clans and thier bird feathere wings.

MC
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, November 11, 2002 10:46:50 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Did they put wigs on statues at one point, though? I heard somewhere that they did, but I'm not going to trust this too much because it was an Anne Rice book, not a reference material . . . so if anyone can say yay or nay . . .
But it wouldn't look that weird, if they did it right. Although the color contrast would be a bit jarring.
Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Monday, November 11, 2002 09:47:22 AM
IP: 205.222.244.210

matt> Hmmm... maybe. It would depend on the wording of the spell, I suppose. That's a good idea, though.
Bud-Clare
Monday, November 11, 2002 06:14:00 AM
IP: 24.169.113.216

Bud-Clare> "Ugh! I've been whacked upside the head by an evil nitpick! A gargoyle's hair couldn't turn to "stone," since it's no longer alive." i thought of that too. but like you said its THEIR hair, and because of the Modesty Spell cast by the Roman Mage their hair would turn to stone along with their clothes, etc. before the Modesty Spell was cast, hair may not have turned to stone with the rest of the 'goyle. THAT would've looked weird, eh?
matt
Monday, November 11, 2002 06:05:24 AM
IP: 207.230.48.51

Ugh! I've been whacked upside the head by an evil nitpick! A gargoyle's hair couldn't turn to "stone," since it's no longer alive.

Someone shoot me. :P
Bud-Clare
Monday, November 11, 2002 03:58:10 AM
IP: 24.169.113.216

Jimmy> "Well, if every cell is Goliath's body spontaneously absorbed a nitrogen atom that would be 14/(6.02*10^23) grams times every cell in his body"
*L* You want to calculate that for us? ;)
Bud-Clare
Monday, November 11, 2002 03:50:14 AM
IP: 24.169.113.216

Ninth.

I've never seen people have so much trouble counting to ten before. :P
Bud-Clare
Monday, November 11, 2002 03:42:53 AM
IP: 24.169.113.216

eight.
Josh
Monday, November 11, 2002 02:19:39 AM
IP: 64.168.30.104

7th I believe.
Greetings from Westrich
Jenna
Monday, November 11, 2002 12:46:23 AM
IP: 206.148.228.191

Mooncat > I think sixth was right . . . wasn't it?

First Post> Lady Baltimore (1)
Second Post> Jurgan (2)
Third Post> Jurgan (still 2)
Fourth Post> Enigma (3)
Fifth Post> Enigma (still 3)
Sixth Post> Enigma (still 3)
Seventh Post> Lady Baltimore (still 1)
Eighth Post> Gabriel (4)
Ninth Post> Knoxville (5)
Tenth Post> Mooncat (6)
Eleventh Post> Mooncat (still 6)

Did I miss someone?
Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Monday, November 11, 2002 12:42:03 AM
IP: 205.187.255.107

7th in the name of the Fay

MC
(recounting)
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, November 11, 2002 12:33:22 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

6th in the name of the Fay!

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, November 11, 2002 12:32:01 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

5th again...
Knoxville - [knox@ketnar.org]
Monday, November 11, 2002 12:23:08 AM
IP: 208.54.204.177

Fourth this time.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, November 11, 2002 12:06:09 AM
IP: 66.169.210.231

No, you're third, if someone posts twice it doesn't count. At least, I surmise.
Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Monday, November 11, 2002 12:03:38 AM
IP: 205.187.255.107

Fourth, I guess I can't count. :)
Enigma
Monday, November 11, 2002 12:02:51 AM
IP: 24.118.156.5

Ok, third. :)
Enigma
Monday, November 11, 2002 12:02:04 AM
IP: 24.118.156.5

First?
Enigma
Monday, November 11, 2002 12:01:19 AM
IP: 24.118.156.5

Okay, second.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Monday, November 11, 2002 12:01:15 AM
IP: 209.198.12.162

First!
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Monday, November 11, 2002 12:00:55 AM
IP: 209.198.12.162

First! I hope!
Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Monday, November 11, 2002 12:00:41 AM
IP: 205.187.255.107