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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending June 9, 2003

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Nikerous: "haven't thought about anime (adult swim) in a while, so not really interested in that" I don't actually get the channel with "adult swim".. but I checked out their program listing ( http://www.adultswim.com/gen/faq/#8 ) and I know from personal experience that "Cowboy Bebop" and "Trigun" are WELL worth the investment in time. I don't know if you've ever seen either of them but I would DEFINATELY reccommend them. None of the other ones I've really seen - other than Lupin III (which has a funny story.. I used to watch this dubbed French cartoon called "Nighthood" starring Arsene Lupin.. and it mentions in "the Castle of Cogliostro" sp? that the star of the "Lupin III" is the grandson of Arsene. I thought this was cool but.. probably not too many people have heard of "Nighthood") This one (from experience) is either really funny or really dumb, depending on which you're watching.
But "Cowboy Bebop" and "Trigun?" YEEESSS. They are both excellent. I've only ever seen them subtitled, but I hear the dub of "CB" (both the TV show and the AWESOME movie) is the best anime dub EVER.. so I feel comfortable in reccommending it. Vash from "Trigun" sounds dorky in english :P but the story is worth suffering his voice ;)

Lurking Fish
Sunday, June 8, 2003 09:35:03 PM
IP: 65.93.75.178

Saw my tape of "Awakening Part Four" this afternoon. I have a few comments, but I'll be saving them for after the room clears.

The thing that really seems to be taking over animation, at least on broadcast (as opposed to cable) is anime imports, as far as I can tell. (I suspect that it's seen as simpler by the American networks since all that they have to do is dub the voices and edit out anything that would be objectionable to their S&P people, rather than actually make the series.)

"X-Men: Evolution" is currently on hiatus, but expected back in the fall with more new episodes. (There's some speculation among its fans that Kids WB is cutting back on it because of its being based on Marvel and WB having strong ties to DC Comics and not wanting to "advertise the competition"; I'm inclined to suspect that myself in my more "conspiracy theory" moods.) I'll confess that I'm quite fond of the show myself (are the X-Men really that much of a cult?).

More to say with the new week.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, June 8, 2003 06:58:03 PM
IP: 171.75.195.99

About the only toons I care about anymore are the Batman/Superman reruns on Cartoon Network. I'm almost interested in the new He-man. Got a bunch on tape but haven't wanted to sit down and watch it yet. I have to turn my attention somewhere (everyone needs a hobby, transferring Gargoyles to disc is almost finished). If TD follows schedule today, I'll only need 11 episodes. 7 of those I have original copies of, so technically, I'll only need 4 episodes.

As for new animation, I want to see the new Spider-man toon on MTV. Hadn't heard about Teen Titans. Might check that out. That's about it. Can't sit through an episode of Xmen Evolution, not interested in Justice League, haven't thought about anime (adult swim) in a while, so not really interested in that. I did see the Animatrix a couple days ago. That was alright. I suppose I'll stop with animation for a while and focus on live action. I have the entire Flash tv series from the 90s on tape, as well as Lois and Clark (very questionable quality there). I can always redo the Gargoyles for dvd-specs, but I don't know if I want the whole series. Half of the episodes I won't watch that much.

Anyway. If anyone is interested, I'll do another disc giveaway in a couple weeks. I'm thinking about doing something with the top 10 that goes on in here every Monday morning.

Anyways, back to surfing the net. ^_^

Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC
Sunday, June 8, 2003 02:44:03 PM
IP: 66.220.73.153

Airwalker - <Actually I'd be really interested to see what TIMEDANCER would have turned out like.> So would I, if it was given a good budget for each season so that the research could be done and lots of money available to work on the various backdrops for each adventure.
DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, June 8, 2003 01:48:50 PM
IP: 204.94.193.61

er, Broadcast Standards & Practices.
we really need a spell checker in here

Wingless
Sunday, June 8, 2003 12:24:27 PM
IP: 24.157.76.94

I always knew it as BS & P (broadcast Standars & Practices). I really love Reboot's major stab at ABC TV for all the stupid edits they were making in Reboot in the second season episode "Talent Night" - Dot is auditioning entertainment for enzo's upcoming birthday, and one of the groups is a Village People parody group-and they're singing "BS & P" to the tune of YMCA - "We love to play in the non violent way" - It's no wonder ABC axed the show after that, but it lived on for 2 more seasons reguardless of ABC's lack of vision. ABC also killed off Bump In The Night-which was a great claymation show-unseen on TV in years(think mr bumpy was voiced by Jim Cummings btw). I remember reading that they had produced a third season of the show, and ABC canned it-so it never got aired.
Wingless
Sunday, June 8, 2003 12:18:45 PM
IP: 24.157.76.94

TODD - You wrote: [the current preference where animated adventure series are concerned is more the straightforward super-hero series]

I got the impression that regular television was moving more towards comedy more than superheroics. Aside from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles which is superhero leaning but isn't straightforward superheroics (they'd need stupid brightly colored costumes for that) everything else that's new tends to be more and more comedy based. The only major straightout superhero shows are XMEN EVOLUTION, JUSTICE LEAGUE, and soon TEEN TITANS. And the last two are cable only. (By the way, is XMEN EVOLUTION still on tv? I was never crazy about it since it just came off to me as spending most of its airtime emphasising the XMEN as a cult.)

The way things look, regular TV animation is slowly moving into comedy (if it isn't dying off completely - the way things are going I think its possible that soon there won't even be much animation left even on Saturday Morning) while cable is moving onto more emphasis on everything else. Adult Swim alone has helped to change the face of animation on cable. I never thought in a million years that a show like TRIGUN could ever make it on air anywhere in the US but along came Adult Swim.


MATT - You wrote: [will likly result in only Gargoyles spinoffs being produced.]

While I would love for the main series to make it back to the air and still think that it has as much of a chance as any of the spinoffs making it, it seems more likely that G2198 has the best chance to make it on the air.

You wrote: [the spinoffs (particularly New Olympians, Dark Ages and possibly Pendragon) require very little background to start, making them ideal for new viewers.]

I think that DARK AGES is extremely unlikely to make it to the air as its own series. Not only does it have the drawback on it that it has a medieval setting but its a prequel to a cancelled series that would be completely staffed by younger versions of the main cast from the original cancelled series. It doesn't sound like an easy show to market to the executives.

THE NEW OLYMPIANS is basically a completely seperate, new show so it wouldn't have to worry about the one episode where it appeared in the original series. We know so little specific information about it from the original series that the episode in question doesn't have to be referenced at all. It can go a dozen episodes without even touching on the idea that it is set in the GARGOYLES universe.

The problem I see with it is that the moment the NOlympians show up, it basically resolves the main problem of GARGOYLES as it was left at the end of Season 2. How can Humanity continue to classify and treat Gargoyles as wild animals if for example the NOlympians send a Gargoyle as an ambassador? The appearance of the NOlympians would be such a shock to the world that it would completely reshape it. I think that in order for it to work without damaging the GARGOYLES portion of the Universe it would have to be something that would happen many years after Gargoyles have been largely accepted or at the very least tolerated for a while as sentient beings. I couldn't see NOlympians showing up in the world before the end of the 21st century.

PENDRAGON I think would have difficulties - while it could start out on the road with Griff and Arthur, the Awakening of Arthur is completely tied to the original series. So is Griff the WW2 Warrior being in Modern Times. There is no way to get around those references without introducing major parts of the original series into the new series.


BLAISE - You wrote: [Seriously, I'd rather not choose. I'd prefer the main series first, of course, but after that...like I said, any of the ones with Brooklyn.]

Actually I'd be really interested to see what TIMEDANCER would have turned out like.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, June 8, 2003 11:44:42 AM
IP: 12.88.197.195

i always thought S&P was short for Standards and Procedures, though i am probably wrong... and they are not too different anyway!
matt
Sunday, June 8, 2003 08:29:26 AM
IP: 207.230.48.72

S&P is short for Standards & Practices. It's the group that makes certain that what takes place in a cartoon doesn't overdo the violence, etc.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, June 7, 2003 09:04:03 PM
IP: 171.75.194.54

*Like Blaise, pops his head in*

What's S&P???

*Takes a break from EVERYTHING*

Later~

*SIGH*

Battle Beast
CanadaSaturday, June 7, 2003 09:00:34 PM
IP: 66.222.190.242

Bye, Blaise! Have a nice time in Singapore!
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, June 7, 2003 07:40:52 PM
IP: 171.75.194.54

Todd - "Hudson's "Must you humans name everything?" piece remains one of my favorite quotes in the series, a definite example of how "Gargoyles" was so far above average for cartoons."
that scene is one of my most favorite scenes from the entire series for many reasons. the biggest reason is for the face Hudson makes to Goliath and Elisa when Goliath picks up Elisa. that face is priceless. i've probably seen this episode dozens of times and every time i laugh out loud at that scene. perfect...

matt
Saturday, June 7, 2003 04:05:41 PM
IP: 207.230.48.60

****A suitcase falls down into the center of the Room. It snaps open just wide enough for Blaise to stick his head out.**** Just finishing up packing for my trip to Singapore. Thankfully I'll still have Internet access while I'm there (which is only going to be for a week, but it will be the first time I've seen my Father in over a year).

AWAKENING PART THREE> RE: The Trio in the kitchen--Like Todd, when I heard that GARGOYLES was originally developed as a comedy, this was the first scene to flash into my mind. I remember thinking it was amusing (it's actually gotten a little more so for me as time went on), but I sincerely hoped that it wasn't indicative of the rest of the series (or at least the rest of the Trio's appearances).
One line of Goliath's I really liked: "This world is just as savage as the one I remember." Maybe I like it just because of the idea of a "monster" calling humans "savage" (what can I say, I've tended to like the inhumans better).

GARGOYLES AND ITS SPINOFFS> I'd like 'em all! :D
Or at least any of the ones with Brooklyn in them.
Seriously, I'd rather not choose. I'd prefer the main series first, of course, but after that...like I said, any of the ones with Brooklyn. I'm easy to please!

Welp, better wrap things up here. See you all from the other side of the world! Until then, farewell. ****Blaise's head SHOOP!s back into the suitcase, which snaps shut, spins around, and winks out of existance.****

Blaise
Saturday, June 7, 2003 01:54:19 AM
IP: 209.179.226.67

Saw my tape of "Awakening Part Three" today. This is the one, of course, where Goliath and Elisa meet for the first time and Hudson gets his name.

Elisa's remark about Castle Wyvern most likely having a big heating bill reminded me of a Bugs Bunny cartoon that I saw once where Bugs was visiting an old Scottish castle, and made a similar remark. (Appropriately enough, that particular episode got in a lot of Shakespeare references, especially "Macbeth", but also some "Romeo and Juliet" and "Hamlet".) I wonder now if that line of Bugs Bunny's inspired that line of Elisa's.

Brendan and Margot make their first appearance in the series, doing what they do best: bickering with each other, getting into trouble, getting rescued by the gargoyles (well, by Goliath), and being even less thrilled to see them than they are to see the muggers.

Hudson's "Must you humans name everything?" piece remains one of my favorite quotes in the series, a definite example of how "Gargoyles" was so far above average for cartoons.

When Xanatos is telling Goliath about the three different Cyberbiotics bases that have to be raided, he says that they all need to be hit at once, so that none can warn the others. In Parts Four and Five, the clan's timing winds up a bit off, however; word of the trio's raid reaches the underground base before Hudson and Bronx arrive, and word of both the trio and Hudson's raid reaches Fortress One before Goliath and Demona break into the room where the disk is being guarded. I guess that they should have synchronized things better.

The trio's misadventures in the kitchen definitely feel like something that could have taken place in the original form of the series as a comedy.

Other highlights: Goliath so eloquently describes Xanatos's monitor screen as "like a living tapestry", Xanatos has to explain the stolen discs as "magic talismans containing hundreds of spells" for Goliath's benefit, Goliath and Elisa giving each other that first little look before going off on the big tour of the city.

Re "Dark Ages": I don't think that low-tech fighting would be that much of a S&P nightmare; they were able to handle it in the flashback scenes all right. "Redwall" was able to do a similar style of fighting and aired on PBS. If anything was to be a problem for it, it would be the network execs perceiving a "medieval series" as not likely to interest kids who've got all those "high-tech settings" to choose from in other animated adventure series.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, June 6, 2003 07:04:46 PM
IP: 171.75.195.121

DPH, if you notice, Castle Wyvern was conventiently placed on a cliffside, so people will just keep falling off the cliffs whenever we need someone to die. It'll be lame, but hey, it's the only way. Or they could just show the slash without showing it make contact. As long as people aren't gushing blood a la Ninja Scroll I don't think there will be too many problems. It will look fake, but it is still a kid's show. There were plenty of midevil battle scenes in Gargoyles and they all seemed to work.
Jimmy
Friday, June 6, 2003 01:45:32 PM
IP: 199.74.80.183

Matt - <avoiding any S&P problems having destruction, terrorism and similiar drama in that locale, and it is original> I hate to burst your bubble, but Dark Ages has potential S&P problems. Those guys use swords and arrows. Swords and arrows cause *visible* damage. Unless you want armies of archers who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn and lots of sword fights fought to a draw, there is a problem because of how you are going to depict the wounds from battle.

(BTW, where is Goliath's wound during "Long Way to Morning"? Is it strictly internal? I have been unable to find it.)

DPH
AR, USA
Friday, June 6, 2003 10:49:23 AM
IP: 204.94.193.65

i continue to believe that the large gap in time between the ending of the series in 1996 to whenever a new series is put on the air, combined with Disney's likely reluctance to have a show focusing on realism, not to mention terrorism (Quarrymen) in New York City will likly result in only Gargoyles spinoffs being produced. IMHO, the likelhood of our beloved gargoyles show being resurrected is small, but the spinoffs show alot of potential. the spinoffs (particularly New Olympians, Dark Ages and possibly Pendragon) require very little background to start, making them ideal for new viewers.

i think that Dark Ages would be the most promising of all proposed spinoffs. it requires the least background of any spinoffs since it pretty much prequels everything else, it is not centered in New York avoiding any S&P problems having destruction, terrorism and similiar drama in that locale, and it is original. no other current (and very few older) cartoons are set in a mythical medieval world. i think Dark Ages shows the most promise and is most likely to be picked up by Disney.

and that, my friends, is my two cents...

matt
Friday, June 6, 2003 10:21:32 AM
IP: 216.178.8.54

About Gargoyles 2198: one thing can be certain at least; we'd still get most of the original voice cast. Obviously, we'd still have Marina Sirtis to play Demona and Jeff Bennett to play Brooklyn and Owen. But the people who'd voiced the deceased characters could still play roles; Greg Weisman mentioned just now at "Ask Greg" that Keith David would be voicing Samson, Salli Richardson Delilah, Frank Welker Fu-Dog, and Jonathan Frakes Coyote-X. And it's pretty obvious that Thom Adcox would be voicing all those LXMs.

That is a good point, Airwalker, about New York being a setting that Disney might shy away from as a drama series' chief location after September 11. Which might give the spin-offs better hope for being done in the event of a "Gargoyles" revival.

Ultimately, what I really want is simply a good animated drama-adventure series with all the essential components that made "Gargoyles" effective (a developing storyline behind the episodes where permanent changes take place, effective characters, a strongly literate atmosphere making use of real-world history and legend, etc.), even if it was only set in the Gargoyles Universe but not involving Goliath and Elisa on screen, or even if it was an entirely new series. Whether we'll get one in the near future remains cloudy (the current preference where animated adventure series are concerned is more the straightforward super-hero series like "Batman" where the heroes never do anything but fight crime - of course, in Batman's case, between the childhood trauma and the heavy crime rate in Gotham City, it's not too surprising that he never does anything else.)

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, June 5, 2003 06:56:54 PM
IP: 171.75.194.134

Subway resources for those traveling to NY:

http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/subway/index.html
[Has Individual Line Maps, System Maps, Schedules, etc]

http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/route/nysubway.gif
[another map (I like this one better)]

Leo
Thursday, June 5, 2003 06:17:54 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

The way I see things in the show, and let me remind you this is just the way I think. I really don't see any reason why the WTC shouldn't be in the remake us (ppl of the States) plan to take the WTC out of everything and try to forget about what happened and I understand that its very upsetting, but to just cut them out of our lives is to cut out all the ppl that lost thier lives, and I who knowing ppl that were never counted for see that the WTC is a way that we can remember them. As for the Quarrymen.. Well sry to say I'm not a big fan of the 3rd season and that whole idea of the Quarrymen seemed just alittle to ridiculous to me, how they were played into the show we never heard any peep from them the first 2 season and as soon as the 3rd starts POW thier they are full force. I think if the Gargoyle saga was to begin were it ended would be a tad be messed up w/ the fans that loved all 3 series , just the first 2 or those small amounts that only know about the 3rd. Theres going to be alot of planing to figure out what needs to be done, and cleand up in the show. As for the gap, well I dont think there is a way to sneek it in there without anyone taking notice especially since you would have to put it into the screenplay. And one more thing to think about. Well if your thinking about re-starting the series I guess your going to have to get back the original cast members, and we would have to hope that they wouldn't be asking for higher prices for thier voices. If worse comes to worse always can get new ppl with similar voices.
I think thats all I have to say, sry for any boo boos I'm still kinda sleeping :).

Babs
Thursday, June 5, 2003 12:39:44 PM
IP: 68.83.228.122

TODD - You wrote: [With that much having to take place in the 1996-2003 period, I almost wonder whether it wouldn't be simpler, if Greg Weisman ever got to do more "Gargoyles", to just do the "Gargoyles 2198" spin-off/sequel instead.]

I don't think that the gap would be as big a problem as we make it out to be; As Evermore points out, the series can always just pick up right it left off give or take a few weeks. Developing a creative solution isn't a problem.

I used to think that it was the time gap that would be the biggest problem in a series revival. But now I don't think it is; instead I wonder if the setting itself might cause Disney to not want to revive the main series. In these times would Disney want to have a series set in what mostly looks like real life NYC? This isn't 1994 or even 1996 anymore - even if most people don't think about it this way, NYC is a frontline city in the current war against terror. Would Disney be interested in reviving a series that is going to be set in this area and that is largely going to deal with the reaction to Quarrymen who as I describe in my last post can take on the very specific appearance of a terrorist group?

1994 was different - Gargoyles sort of reflected the reality; showing up and fighting crime secretly fit with the real life developments of Disney moving itself into NYC (more specifically Times Square) and the city moving to clean itself up to allow that to happen. Would Disney want to do a continuation of the show that would continue to reflect reality? (That reflection of reality was one of the great strengths of the show; but with changing times could it be something that would hurt it?)

You wrote: [I'm not so sure that that would work, however; things with Batman are much more "status quo", and Batman's life focuses exclusively on crime-fighting in contrast to all the personal drama that the gargoyles have in their own lives.]

To be fair to Batman, he doesn't have a personal life; everything he is and everyone he cares about is tied into his Batman life of crimefighting. Bruce Wayne is just a mask he wears to keep his real life a secret. (The comics also tend to have an easier time dealing with this specific point than the TV series did.)

BATMAN and all the various spinoffs are really a very differnt type of animal. While being dramatic, they aren't really drama - they are after all just superhero stories. GARGOYLES wasn't a superhero story, it was a drama outright. It had action and crimefighting and such but that was just something extra that happened. It was the characters and their story that mattered. (Typing this out it almost sounds to me like a prime time cop drama; maybe in some ways it was. That description would really stake out the major difference between a superheroic story like BATMAN and a tale like that of GARGOYLES.)

GARGOYLES could essentially take the BATMAN route and just start a few years later. Even being a much less status quo series than BATMAN it might not be such a bad idea. It would make it feel like a very new beginning rather than just picking up where they left off. And in being forced to explain the new context, it could provide an opportunity to easily fill in the gap. For example having a new series have Brooklyn walking around with a family in the background would force an explination.


DEMONA TAIN - You wrote: [He would save himself a lot of trouble, wouldn't he? But wouldn't that destroy the entire purpose of bringing the series back on the air?]

I'd have mixed feelings; on the one hand I would be disappointed in not getting the main series back - I would be missing out on seeing how all those various relationships and events work themselves out. I do want to see Demona/Angela development, I want to see how the Trio deals with formally dissolving itself, I'm curious to see how Elisa reacts to Goliath dating Delilah and how Goliath reacts to Elisa dating Morgan or Jason (or both).

On the other hand I am interested in the G2198 concept and while it doesn't carry over specific relationships, it does carry the plot and development of the original series. It is after all the story of the Manhattan Clan, of Goliath's family and mission, except that it is being carried over to a 200 year gap instead of a 10 year gap.

You wrote: [If Gargoyles 2198 gets done and not Gargoyles, then we won't have the main cast.]

That is true; we wouldn't have Goliath and Elisa, Broadway and Angela, Lexington and whatever :-). We wouldn't have David Xanatos and Fox. We'd lose tons of stories and characters that we are interested in and want to see and know more about. I don't want to lose that and would like for the original series to return. But if it can't and what we can realistically get is G2198 then I would accept that. We wouldn't have Goliath and Elisa but we'd have Samson and Delilah. We wouldn't have David Xanatos but we'd get Alexander Xanatos. And we'd still carry over many main characters - Demona, Brooklyn, Macbeth, Owen/Puck, Cyoti. (And I have a strong suspicion that we'd get others too - I have a feeling about Thailog, Jackal, Hyena, Dingo/Matrix, ColdTrio, Pendragon.) It wouldn't be the same but it may be more possible and realistic that G2198 would be pursued by Disney as a series revival rather than the main series restarting. I would personally continue to push for the main series but I wouldn't cry if they decided to do G2198. It would be a start that could lead to something - massive interest in it could spurn Disney to thinking of other spinoffs as well as the main series.

You wrote: [Isn't that what kids want these days? They'll get more action, more intergalactic wars, and a new cast. What's not to love? In my opinion, lots of things, and I doubt that that's what made us fall in love with the show in the first place.]

If it became a vehicle for mindless action that would be terrible. And we would be losing many elements that we love. The contrast of Medieval mind to Modern times was a great draw. But after a few years of living in the modern era, are the Manhattan Gargoyles still that Medieval in how they approach the world?

I'm not trying to say that G2198 would be a complete substitute to the main series. It is a different show in the type of world that would exist and even in how the characters in it would approach that world. But I don't think that it lose that mature, dramatic edge the main series maintained if Greg were in control. I don't think that the same issues that it would address would be handled any differently in tone just because the series would be more sci-fi oriented.

You wrote: [If we get a spin-off instead of the original show, then I'd rather not get a new series at all.]

I loved the characters of the main series but it was also the universe that they inhabit that interested me. I will say again that I'd prefer to get the main series back rather than a spinoff but if it did turn out that a spinoff got greenlighted rather than the main series then I would give it my attention. After all a spinoff can sometimes be a test of the waters to see if there might be an audience for a main show revival. If BAD GUYS or PENDRAGON were done and did well then it might open up attention to restarting the main series.

You wrote: [Maybe that's just me, but I'm a loyal, loyal fan of this show.]

I'm a loyal fan of this show too; but it was never the only show that I was ever watching. And I'm not closed off to enjoying a spinoff if it happens. I would like to see the main series continue (preferably with a spinoff or two running with it) but if it doesn't and a spinoff happens instead I'd still keep a flame going for the main series but I would be open to enjoying the spinoff on top of that.


Maybe this would all be much easier if despite whatever we get on television we could get a series of novels and comic books done on the main series (and maybe with the spinoffs involved too).

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, June 5, 2003 12:07:59 PM
IP: 12.88.201.162

Hey, everyone. I don't know if this is the place for Gathering related posts, but I'm gonna take a chance. I'm attending the Gathering this year, but being on a student's budget, I need to try and cut corners. So I'm gonna throw my hat in the ring and say that I need a place to sleep at the Gathering, on the nights of the 27th, 28th, and probably the 29th. (planning on getting there Friday afternoon and leaving Monday morning, though I may have to leave Sunday night). I have a sleeping bag and a pillow, so all I need is floor space in someone's room; I'd be glad to chip in for the cost of said room.
I'm okay with a corner of the floor, I'm quiet, and best of all, I don't snore.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. You can drop me a line at whitbourne@hotmail.com
Thanks.

Dylan Blacquiere - [whitbourne@hotmail.com]
Thursday, June 5, 2003 11:03:14 AM
IP: 130.15.104.15

Hello again. I just thought I'd paste what Greg said a couple days ago in Ask Greg.

"Look, I'd treat the series as brand new with a new audience who knows nothing. I simply would be loyal to the already established continuity for the existing fans. I have faith, even if you don't, that I could work in the necessary backstory over time.

I also have been thinking about picking up more or less exactly where I left off. In 1996. I simply wouldn't date it or show shots with the WTC in it. That is, I'd save the dates for the hard core fans here on the internet. Eventually, we'd catch up to the present.

Ultimately, I haven't decided what I'd do. And I'm not going to unless or until it happens."

In my opinion, I would like the second approach much more than picking up after a time gap and working the back story in.

Evermore - [pfog@velocity.net]
Albion, PA, USA
Thursday, June 5, 2003 08:28:27 AM
IP: 65.120.97.113

DEMONA TAINA - Yes, a sequel series that leaves out most of the original cast would certainly be troublesome. Of course, the various "Star Trek" series after the original one did the same thing without any trouble; so did "The Lord of the Rings" (retiring Bilbo from "The Hobbit" at the start), for that matter. But it would still be a problem. (And it would also lose the medieval aspects that initially were what drew me to "Gargoyles").

Obviously a "completely restart the continuity from scratch" approach would be out as well (as in, say, a series which comes up with an entirely different origin for the gargoyles such as simple statues which are brought to life by a freak lightning accident or humans mutated into gargoyle-like creatures by a mad scientist or even humans in high-tech gargoyle-shaped armor who donned it to strike terror in the hearts of "cowardly, superstitious" criminals).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, June 5, 2003 07:29:27 AM
IP: 171.75.194.119

Todd: [With that much having to take place in the 1996-2003 period, I almost wonder whether it wouldn't be simpler, if Greg Weisman ever got to do more "Gargoyles", to just do the "Gargoyles 2198" spin-off/sequel instead.]

Yes, indeed, many years have passed since the series was cancelled... And indeed, it would be simpler to do a spin-off. After all, Greg Weisman wouldn't have to deal with TGC. He wouldn't have to deal with the gap from 1996 to, say, 2004. He could actually start anew! He would save himself a lot of trouble, wouldn't he? But wouldn't that destroy the entire purpose of bringing the series back on the air? If Gargoyles 2198 gets done and not Gargoyles, then we won't have the main cast. We won't have Goliath and Elisa. We won't have Xanatos. We won't have any of the things that made the series great... We will just have an entirely new cast except for Brooklyn the Timedancer and Demona. Many of the characters that we have learned to love and care for will be DEAD and only their descendants will be around. Indeed, many new viewers would probably like it more. Isn't that what kids want these days? They'll get more action, more intergalactic wars, and a new cast. What's not to love? In my opinion, lots of things, and I doubt that that's what made us fall in love with the show in the first place.

If we get a spin-off instead of the original show, then I'd rather not get a new series at all. At least I'd still be able to keep my happy memories about the original show and not dwell on the distant future, where my favorite characters will be long, long gone. And I don't know about you, but I'm more interested in learning about what's going to happen with Goliath and Elisa's relationship instead of an intergalactic war... Maybe that's just me, but I'm a loyal, loyal fan of this show.

And I'm sorry if this came off as a rant... I needed to get that off my chest. Long live Gargoyles!

Demona Taina - [demona3@hotmail.com]
Thursday, June 5, 2003 04:31:41 AM
IP: 196.42.28.22

Maybe I'm being ignorant, but if Gargoyles gets restarted, why not just have the next episode dated 1996 and go on from there. After "X" amount of episodes, the series would eventually get caught up with present time. Although there would have to have a Gargoyles marathon beforehand for those who haven't seen the series before.
Rac
Troy, NY, Troy
Wednesday, June 4, 2003 09:56:04 PM
IP: 24.195.1.11

With that much having to take place in the 1996-2003 period, I almost wonder whether it wouldn't be simpler, if Greg Weisman ever got to do more "Gargoyles", to just do the "Gargoyles 2198" spin-off/sequel instead.

I remember Kathy once suggesting that a returned "Gargoyles" would do what "The New Batman/Superman Adventures" did vis a vis "Batman: TAS" and just restart the series a couple of years later. I'm not so sure that that would work, however; things with Batman are much more "status quo", and Batman's life focuses exclusively on crime-fighting in contrast to all the personal drama that the gargoyles have in their own lives.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, June 4, 2003 07:09:42 PM
IP: 171.75.194.56

BB> Angela. The REckoning.
Gabriel
Wednesday, June 4, 2003 04:58:35 PM
IP: 68.116.248.99

RAC> Correct.

Kid Nickerous> I got you CD's today. THANkS!!!!!!!

43) who make this statement, and from what episode: "I hate you!"? (3 pts)

Later~

Battle Beast
CanadaWednesday, June 4, 2003 04:19:53 PM
IP: 66.222.190.242

TODD - You wrote: [I don't see Demona as having had that much influence in Goliath becoming the clan's leader;]

I didn't mean that she had direct input into the Hudson's ultimate choice. I was thinking more along the lines that her constantly agitating had a considerable effect on Hudson's thinking. She couldn't have just started talking about how the Clan would need a younger leader just that night. I got the feeling that she had been talking about it for a while and that LONG WAY TO MORNING wasn't the only or first time that she had mentioned it with Hudson standing a few steps away from her. If she hadn't been bringing it up and made an issue of it then its possible that Hudson wouldn't have felt such a pressing need to turn over power, even with a damaged eye. Its not like Goliath was in a hurry to take power or to even really bring up the subject. Demona was the main mover in this scenario even if it wasn't in a direct manner.

You wrote: [I doubt that Goliath would have gone down Demona's road, at least.]

I don't know if Goliath would have gone exactly and directly down the road Demona ended up on and I do think that the ending point for him would have been very different but it is possible that it may have been a very similar journey. Let's not forget that before he met and started to trust Elisa, he was extremely skeptical about Humanity in general. Without her as a positive influence it is possible he might have hardened his heart even more than he had towards Humanity. If Goliath had chosen exile rather than suicide then he may have had to spend an extended period completely alone and perhaps even Hunted. (The Hunter wouldn't exist since I Goliath would be less likely to scar Gillcomgain but that doesn't mean that there wouldn't be Humans in general hunting Gargoyles who were looking for food.) It would have to have an effect of some sort on him and his thinking.

You wrote: [In fact, I was more worried by that than over whether Angela was going to live.]

Actually the first time I saw that scene the suprise at it made me forget the circumstances of the situation i.e that Angela was lying there dying. I really wasn't sure if she was really going to die or not - on the one hand the show did kill off characters but on the other hand she was just recently introduced and was directly tied to all the main characters. It made HUNTERS MOON 2 even more interesting.

You wrote: [Would Castaway have wound up losing most of his "ordinary citizen" recruits, resulting in a Quarrymen organization made up almost exclusively of criminals and mercenaries?]

Why assume that Castaway would retain control of the organisation? He may have started the Quarrymen but once movements start, they tend to take on a life of their own. And if the people leading them can't adapt to it and deal with it then they tend to get replaced. If Castaway couldn't deal with the circumstances then I could see the Quarrymen (or the Illuminati or both) take moves to either throw him out, neutralize his power in the organisation, or just have him killed to create a martyr for them.

I can't imagine that Castaway could get away running around NYC for long hunting Gargoyles with electric hammers. My impression was that THE JOURNEY was in the immediate aftermath of HUNTERS MOON which wouldn't be more than a week. That would have given him some time of controlled chaos to operate in but it wouldn't have lasted long. The city and the cops would come down on him pretty hard; in the end he would have to make the organisation into something more "legitimate" and "respectable".

I figure that Castaway would become a figurehead to the "respectable" part of the operation which would be taken over and reshaped by the ordinary citizens while the criminal elements of it would go underground and be treated by the public as fringe elements who associate themselves with the Quarryman cause.

You wrote: [I do suspect that Castaway would be doing all that he could to keep the hammers and other gargoyle-hunting missions a secret from the general public and the police]

Why? That was how he was marketing the group to the mainstream visitors in THE JOURNEY. He's not making a secret that they are on a mission to kill all the Gargoyles. I think that it would take a clampdown by the city and cops plus the threat of court intervention before the organisation would be forced to reorganize itself and swear off violence at least officially. I can see the Quarrymen developing along the lines of a cult and a terrorist group. A cult in how it attracts and keeps people in with ceremonies, uniforms, and offers of acceptance and a place in the world. A terrorist organization in how it organises itself - a political wing that runs all sorts of social services and a military wing that is theoretically independent just so the political leaders can claim ignorance and lack of control. (Sort of like Hizbollah.)


PHIL - You wrote: [None of these things have to be worked around for the show to restart. They could just as well happen in 2004 or after.]

Most of them do have to happen in the gap - not everything can be pushed over to whenever the gap finishes. I can't accept for example that the Clan had tons of adventures from 1994 to 1996 and then nothing major happened until 2004 or whenever the gap is brought to an end. Most of what I listed are things that would probably happen in those gap years. Specifically:

Ultra-Pack, a couple versions of Cyoti - You could push off the Ultra-Pack to later in the gap but not the couple of versions of Cyoti. He can't just upgrade consistantly for two years and then not do so for 10-20 years after.

Goliath dating Delilah - This is part of the Goliath/Elisa development so its not something that can just sit and wait for whenever the gap period is supposed to be over.

Brooklyn Timedancing and returning with a Family - This could technically happen after the gap period but why have Brooklyn just sit around and chew on his heart over not having a significant other for the at least 10 year gap? This seems like something that should happen in the gap.

Fang being broken out and Bad Guys being formed - I always figured that the Director decided to create Bad Guys sort of as a reflection of the fact that the Illuminati formed a small covert group of its own (i.e. Quarrymen). Its true that Bad Guys and Quarrymen have different motives and missions but its hard not to draw a connection between the various similarities in both groups. I can't see Bad Guys just sit around and wait for the time gap to end just to be formed if they are indeed a reaction of the Director to an Illuminati move in the form of the Quarrymen.

Various Pendragon/Griff adventures - Unchangable given that Pendragon and Griff left Manhattan in 1996. They had to have been doing something since then. I imagine that most of PENDRAGON fits into the 10 year gap we currently have.

Demona/Angela interaction - I can't see this sitting still either; one of them is going to have to make a move. I can't see Demona being so hurt by what Angela said in THE RECKONING that she avoids her for at least 10 years.

Avalonian Fey popping in to train Alex and aggrivate the Clan and New Yorkers in general - This probably happens during and after the gap but I can't see it not happening in the gap given that Alex is growing and being trained during the gap. This would be part of his training.

Various adventures involving the Quarrymen - This isn't going to sit and wait for the gap to finish.

At most I could see Coldtrio Adventures and the Trial of Goliath pushed off to the end of a 10-15 year gap. But beyond that something has to happen. Internal Gargoyle Universe time wouldn't stand still and something has to happen in that gap period.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, June 4, 2003 12:35:11 PM
IP: 12.88.198.101

Well, I deceded to go to the Gathering at the last minute. And it seems all the hotels within a 20 mile radius are no more than +/- $40 of the Con hotel, which for the amount of time I want to stay is $500+ total. Too ,much for me alone. Is there anybody arriving the 26 and leaving on the 1st who would be willing to share a room? I can even bring a cot so you wouldn't have to share your bed. :)
Leo - [Lk23693@aol.com]
Wednesday, June 4, 2003 01:09:10 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Airwalker> "Ultra-Pack, a couple versions of Cyoti, Trial of Goliath, Goliath dating Delilah, Brooklyn Timedancing and returning with a Family, Fang being broken out and Bad Guys being formed, various Pendragon/Griff adventures, Demona/Angela interaction, Avalonian Fey popping in to train Alex and aggrivate the Clan and New Yorkers in general, Coldtrio adventures, more crimefighting, various adventures involving the Quarrymen."

Like I repled to DPH, those are all things that don't necessarily have to have already happened. None of these things have to be worked around for the show to restart. They could just as well happen in 2004 or after.

I'm sorry if I'm not being clear about what I'm asking.


Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
Tuesday, June 3, 2003 11:08:10 PM
IP: 63.184.161.237

Todd - <As for the meeting of the various gargoyle clans - that's a strictly TGS idea; Greg Weisman never said anything
about it, as far as I can recall.> Actually, I would say it was almost implied. If leaders from the various gargoyle clans around the world are going to donate their eggs to start a new clan, I would suspect there was some sort of structure in place for the various leaders to meet with each other from time to time. I'd rather not speculate on a date, though.

DPH
AR, USA
Tuesday, June 3, 2003 07:29:44 PM
IP: 204.94.193.12

AIRWALKER - I don't see Demona as having had that much influence in Goliath becoming the clan's leader; the reason why he succeeded Hudson was because he was Hudson's second-in-command and because Hudson felt himself unable to lead properly after being blinded in one eye. Demona didn't bring about either, so far as we know.

I doubt that Goliath would have gone down Demona's road, at least. There was more behind Demona taking that route than just human persecution. She also wanted power (remember her working for the Archmage), and was willing to do whatever it took to get it. Goliath just wanted to protect his clan.

And, yes, when I first saw "Hunter's Moon Part One", I was positively chilled by Goliath's vow to kill the Hunters at the end. (In fact, I was more worried by that than over whether Angela was going to live.) It's certainly one thing that you generally don't see an animated "super-hero" do.

I wonder what sort of changes the Quarrymen would have undergone by 2003. Would Castaway have wound up losing most of his "ordinary citizen" recruits, resulting in a Quarrymen organization made up almost exclusively of criminals and mercenaries? (It's probable, although that would weaken the "bigotry" element of it; such people would hate the gargoyles anyway, regardless of what they looked like, for getting in their way; their hatred of Goliath and Co. would be no more true xenophobia than, say, the Joker's hatred of Batman). I doubt that they'd be driven underground, but I do suspect that Castaway would be doing all that he could to keep the hammers and other gargoyle-hunting missions a secret from the general public and the police (regardless of what they think of gargoyles, such activities would still be troublesome because they would be classified as vigilantism); he'd probably have to arrange things so that the only Quarryman activities that would be generally known outside the organization would be putting up anti-gargoyle billboards, running anti-gargoyle commercials on television, handing out pamphlets, things like that.

As for the meeting of the various gargoyle clans - that's a strictly TGS idea; Greg Weisman never said anything about it, as far as I can recall. (Also, it's Queen Mab, not Queen Maeve.)

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, June 3, 2003 07:14:44 PM
IP: 171.75.194.223

BLAISE - You wrote: [Didn't Greg mention the college from which Terry graduated before he set sail? I thought it was one that's on the eastern USA coastline. MIT, maybe?]

I don't remember this little bit of information. Its possible though - but I'm still not convinced that it would be that simple to hide an island in the Atlantic Ocean.


TODD - You wrote: [Despite this, they still look down on them with scorn and contempt. I find this a bit puzzling.]

I don't. Friendship and Alliance require positive reenforcement and encouragement. Without that it can't last; and the agreement between Gargoyles and Humans at Wyvern wasn't getting anything even close to that by 994.

The tragedy of Wyvern is that leadership on both sides failed completely. Katharine was completely unfit to be a leader - she was immature and short sighted to an extreme degree. She was essentially a spoiled brat who wanted to continue to have Gargoyle protection but not at least pay the necessary diplomatic lip service to them. And Goliath wasn't helping things the way he was leading things. He was so desperate to keep the status quo that had existed under Prince Malcolm that he failed to listion to his own people. Coldstone and Demona couldn't have been the only members of his clan voicing disappointment and discontentment with how they were being treated. He failed to deal with that by trying to ignore the whole situation.

You wrote: [In fact, these circumstances do make Demona's conviction that humans are never going to make peace with the gargoyles more believable, since if 23 years couldn't do the job, what could?]

The question we should really ask is how much contact the two groups really had with each other? Gargoyles are only awake at night when most of the population is asleep so at most they are going to only encounter a few guards here and there which isn't much of the population. Aside from the Human leaders the two groups are pretty much in isolation from each other. So saying that the Clan had 23 years of protection under their belts doesn't mean much. Most of the population didn't see it happen and isn't likely to think that much about it.

The problem with Demona's view of things is the Humans she keeps coming across; first the Archmage, then Katharine and the Magus, the the various Hunters. She does know the Captain but only after first having dealt extensively with the Archmage and in the end even then things don't work out well with the Captain from her perspective. (Later she knows Macbeth but only after having dealt with the Hunter for years.)

You wrote: [And since she was the ruler of Castle Wyvern, that could have influenced the attitudes of a lot of the other humans there (such as the Magus).]

Defintely the Magus. He was so head over heals in love with her that he would have agreed with anything she said or even implied. I do think that the rest of the nobility was influenced by her behavior but I do wonder if they were largely that hostile to the Gargoyles? After all the comments we hear from them in the first episode are directed against the Captain, not the Gargoyles. They do imply through them that they don't think THAT highly of the Gargoyles but its a long road from that to open hatred that Katharine was giving off in huge waves.

You wrote: [It's also quite possible that the gargoyles never did all that much mixing with the humans in the castle, holding themselves apart]

I don't think its so much holding themselves apart - the fact is that while life nowadays especially in the cities tends to run 24 hours a day, in medieval times it didn't. Most of the population wouldn't stay up at late night when Gargoyles lived their lives.

You wrote: [Too bad that Mary and Demona had to then destroy the peace.]

Actually it was Mary who destroyed the peace. Demona wasn't pleased by Tom's approach and interaction with the Trio but she didn't do anything but frown. Mary actually up and attacked Brooklyn. And even at that moment when Demona came down and confronted Mary, she didn't attack her. She started to argue with her. Brooklyn and Lexington interupted. At most all we can say is that Demona didn't stop them from scaring the obviously hostile outsider humans. But I don't think we can really say Demona seriously destroyed the peace at that moment. If anything its mainly Mary with a little help from Brooklyn.

You wrote: [the fact that Goliath was, in effect, committing suicide when he asked the Magus to cast the spell upon him]

I think that largely despite having been leader since 984, he still wasn't really ready or "mature" enough for it; he grows much more once he gets to modern times and has with a much more compact clan to answer to. I don't know if saying tragedy helped him to develop but looking at him in medieval times, he seems much more naive and blind to circumstances. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea for him to take power so early; more troubles caused by Demona trying to change her future.

As for his suicide I think that its just another thing that makes me wonder how much more like Demona he is. I've always wondered how it would have been if he had just decided to turn over the eggs to Katharine and head off into exile. Would he have ended up even more like her? Would his outlook on life change considerably, devolping in a Demona-ish direction? Or would the little bit of optimism he seems to retain make things different?


RAC - You wrote: [Xanatos saying hell was a shock to me way back in the day. Didn't expect US cartoons to swear]

The most suprising moment in the series for me was the end of HUNTERS MOON 1; ending it with Goliath swearing to hunt down and kill his enemies was completely shocking - the way it just ended with him saying that was amazing. The first time I saw it I though I might have imagined hearing a main heroic character on an American Cartoon swear to outright kill someone.


PHIL - You wrote: [Is there anything else that has to have occurred before 2003 that I'm overlooking?]

Ultra-Pack, a couple versions of Cyoti, Trial of Goliath, Goliath dating Delilah, Brooklyn Timedancing and returning with a Family, Fang being broken out and Bad Guys being formed, various Pendragon/Griff adventures, Demona/Angela interaction, Avalonian Fey popping in to train Alex and aggrivate the Clan and New Yorkers in general, Coldtrio adventures, more crimefighting, various adventures involving the Quarrymen - that's pretty much all that comes to mind right now; there probably is tons more. For example I can't imagine that Lexington is going to be left out of all the matchmaking or sidelined due to the Trio being dissolved. He's not just going to sit around from 1996 to 2003 or however long the gap is going to be.


DPH - You wrote: [There's also the 1st meeting of world wide meeting of leaders from the various Gargoyle clans around the world]

I never pictured anything like that happening in mainstream continuity before at least well into the 21st century; I doubt that all the Clans we know exist but having popped up in the actual series are going to suddenly come out of hiding in the existing time gap we have. Without them and without the other Clans knowing about them any meeting of Gargoyle leaders would be incomplete. I don't think that a Gargoyle "UN" meeting could happen for a while - the Clans that are exposed to the world (first Manhattan but possibly others as time goes on - London could be next to be revealed) are going to have to deal first with survival and Gargoyle/Human Relations before moving onto Gargoyle/Gargoyle Relations.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, June 3, 2003 11:49:51 AM
IP: 12.88.165.64

Battle Beast> Actually, it was Lexington who asked what happened to the eggs.

Tuesday, June 3, 2003 11:11:21 AM
IP: 80.148.27.86

DPH> Good thoughts, but those are all things that could still happen. I was looking for things that have to have already happened.
Basically, my point is that if the show were re-started this year and set in 2003, there are only a few things that would have to be worked out to fill the gap between then and now.

I guess its up for discussion whether the Quarrymen will have to have changed their tactics in the past six years.


Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
Tuesday, June 3, 2003 11:09:24 AM
IP: 134.215.241.140

Phil - Yea, assumedly by now, Jon Castaway's organization has gone underground because of constant police persecution. Another event on the Horizon is King Arthur finding Merlin and the founding of New Camelot. There's also Queen Maeve escaping her imprisonment. There's also the 1st meeting of world wide meeting of leaders from the various Gargoyle clans around the world and whatever preceeds that.
DPH
AR, USA
Tuesday, June 3, 2003 10:46:09 AM
IP: 204.94.193.20

Yesterday Greg answered a question about continuity and how to deal with the gap between the end of the series and now (or whenever the series is restarted). That got me thinking about what things have already happened in the Gargoyles Universe that we know about, but never got a chance to see. Things that have to be dealt with "in the gap."

First would be the hatching of gargoyle eggs in 1998. (I feel sorry for Zafiro and the rest of the Mayan Clan; they've had their claws full the past five years.)

Second is Goliath and Elisa's relationship. We can only speculate as to how far it has developed, but it has definitely not stagnated.

There are other things that haven't necessarily happened by 2003 (death of Renard, revelation of New Olympus, etc). Is there anything else that has to have occurred before 2003 that I'm overlooking?


Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
Tuesday, June 3, 2003 09:05:35 AM
IP: 134.215.241.140

Please pardon me; I have never posted here before, but it was suggested I post here about my current predicament.

I recently had a harddrive die on me, and while I *thought* I had gotten all my files saved to disc, apparently a few somehow escaped. I have no idea how. It truely saddens me tho', because some were from the Gathering 2002 art show. If you were there you would recognize Fantastic Four? and Intertwined from the Canon Color category.

http://imaginatorcentral.com/ic/art/fanart/if/artfan20.jpg

http://imaginatorcentral.com/ic/art/fanart/if/artfan16.jpg

Both of these pieces were sold, and I don't know to whom. But if anyone here knows who got either of these pieces, I would greatly appreciate sending my word their way, or getting me in contact with them. I like to have a high rez file of all my pieces in my 'database,' and 2002 will be quite empty without these two.

I thank you ahead of time for any assistance you may provide.

Sara Berkeley - [imaginatorcentral@hotmail.com]
Monday, June 2, 2003 11:01:27 PM
IP: 12.91.108.12

****With a BAMF! and a cloud of brimstone, Blaise appears in the Room.**** What can I say? Nightcrawler always did have one of the cooler sound effects.

BATTLE BEAST> Actually, it was Lexington who asked Xanatos about the eggs.

JIMMY> The executive suggested that Goliath commit "suicide" (that he ask for the Magus to cast the spell on him rather than the Magus offering to do it). The "Castle in the Clouds" was largely a part of development from day 1.

AWAKENING> I remember my first thought before the show started was "Please don't be stupid." I mean, I always had a fondness for gargoyles, and I wanted a series based off of them to be cool. Needless to say, I was not disappointed.
In the beginning the gargoyles that left the greatest impression on me (aside from Goliath and Demona) were Broadway and Lexington (due to girth and wing structure, respectively). And then there's Owen--just ONE scene is all he needs to establish himself in your mind.

Man, posting twice in just a few days--one of the benefits of more free time, I guess. Oh well, later all! Until then, farewell. ****Blaise once again BAMF!s out of the Room.****

Blaise
Monday, June 2, 2003 10:57:40 PM
IP: 209.178.155.161

The castle above the clouds thing was suggested by an exec? What was the plan before?
Jimmy
Monday, June 2, 2003 10:24:20 PM
IP: 199.74.80.183

Battle Beast - <Here is the next question I am going to ask... It will only go to 50.> One small problem, though. The only real battles will be for 2nd through whatever place unless you pop out quite a few 10+ points questions.
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, June 2, 2003 10:21:52 PM
IP: 204.94.193.11

NICKEROUS - I think that the fear that "Gargoyles" would be perceived as a rip-off of "Batman" stemmed from the fact that:

1. The gargoyles and Batman are both nocturnal crime-fighters who live in a major American city (and Gotham City was modelled on New York, in fact, if portrayed as much darker), strike terror into the hearts of criminals, and sport batlike wings (or batlike wing-shaped capes).

2. They both had a similar style of animation.

On the other hand, the gargoyles did differ from Batman, in being non-human, from the medieval period, a group of people rather than a solitary figure, and having other things in their lives besides crime-fighting (while Batman focuses exclusively on crime-fighting). Greg Weisman did a little piece once, in fact, on the differences between them. (He pointed out, in particular, the difference between Bruce Wayne's response to the murder of his parents - scarred for life, never able to move on - and Goliath's response to the Wyvern Massacre - a horrifying event, but he's able to find some peace over it.)

RAC - I liked the scenes, too, where Hudson wondered if the commandoes were sorcerers on account of their weapons (and also Lexington asking the female commando if she was a Viking and Hudson mistaking their helicopter for a dragon). I really enjoyed the "modern world seen through medieval eyes" element. Though my favorite line in that category was in Part Three, where Goliath describes Xanatos's monitor screen as "like a living tapestry". Very poetic.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, June 2, 2003 10:01:45 PM
IP: 171.75.194.7

Battle Beast- "42) What color was Ishimura's Gargoyle Beast? (2 pts) " Dark red, I'm thinking?
warrioress
Monday, June 2, 2003 09:51:09 PM
IP: 65.69.69.75

Summer work has kept me from posting any coherent thought into the comment room which is why I've been gone for awhile (That, and I never get in on time to answer the trivia).

Anyhoo...

Todd:

Eps.1+2

What got me hooked was how Gargoyles wasn't your stereotypical american cartoon (average animation, little plot,the vast amount of stupidity all the characters had, etc.,though I will always like Roadrunner). It already had discrimination, death,hypocrites, betrayal, and decent animation in the first episode. Although I probably miss a large portion of the subtlties when I was 10-12(like Goliath commiting suicide).

In Ep.2,Xanatos saying hell was a shock to me way back in the day. Didn't expect US cartoons to swear (at least that's what my mom said and would get ticked if she caught us saying that ;)). The gargoyles looking stupified when waking up in Mahattan was a nice touch. Still like how Hudson thought the commandoes were socerors.

Battlebeast:
Goliath may have entrusted the eggs to Kat. and Magus but he was already stone before all the eggs were placed in the cart. And I think the whole egg turning into stone thing only applied while the egg was still in the mother's womb and stays normal until the hatchling is born. Though I may have been wrong,I've been reading only the ramblings in the archive.

And I think the Ishimura's Gargoyle Beast was red.

Now for my daily dose of video games.

RAC
Troy, NY, USA
Monday, June 2, 2003 09:25:34 PM
IP: 24.195.1.11

I never thought of it as Goliath "commiting suicide"; I always thought that he just didn't want to be alone, and that there was no other alternative for him.

What really got me was why he didn't put the eggs under the sleep spell. Greg said something to the effect that the eggs turn to stone just like other gargoyles, so *if* the spell had been cast on the eggs, they would have survived as well. Viola! insta-clan.

Another thing that bothered me was why Goliath asked about the eggs in the rookery [to Xanatos], when he knew that the Princess and Magus had taken them. (Although it might have been wishfull thinking on his part.)

1) DPH - 25
2) Demona Taina - 8
2) Matt - 8
4) Enigma - 7
4) Nickerous - 7
6) Gabriel - 6
6) Vashkoda - 6
8) Cassie - 5
8) Rac - 5
8) Todd Jensen - 5
11)Wingless - 4
12) Aaron - 3
12) Spacebabie - 3
14) Blaise - 2
14) Leo - 2
14) Silverbolt - 2
14) Warrioress - 2
18) Jimmy - 1
18) Lurking Fish - 1

Here is the next question I am going to ask... It will only go to 50. 7 to go.

42) What color was Ishimura's Gargoyle Beast? (2 pts)

Later~



*PHEW*

Battle Beast
CanadaMonday, June 2, 2003 09:00:56 PM
IP: 66.222.190.242

Sry bout the double, but.....a rip-off of Batman? Batman?!? Batman is one guy with no powers whatsoever, who only got into the hero gig because of what happened to his parents. If the Waynes had survived, he would have become the ultimate playboy.

If the Magus had not put the spell on Goliath and company, they would have been smashed or either died of old age in a cave somewhere. More than likely, they would have returned to Wyvern, but what band of outlaws could pass up the chance to taking the castle during the day?

What do you folks think?

Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Monday, June 2, 2003 08:41:55 PM
IP: 66.220.73.214

I knew I would do this. I just knew it. I am 8 episodes away from finishing the series (4 of those 8 will hopefully air this weekend). I get the cds exactly the way I want it and I find a deal on a dvd burner that I can't pass up. I caved in, I bought it. Now I gotta redo the entire series to dvd specs (like I said earlier, why upgrade if you're gonna keep the same quality). It's ok though. If I didn't love this series, I wouldn't bother. BTW, I'm considering giving away another disc. I'm thinking about doing it the weekend of the Gathering. Gotta do something, since I'm not going to be there. *sigh* maybe next year. <:)
Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Monday, June 2, 2003 08:34:17 PM
IP: 66.220.73.214

Sorry for the double post (though I'm a bit surprised that not one person posted here in the last several hours), but since I saw my tape of "Awakening Part Two" today, I thought that I'd give my report on it.

One amusing thing about it; the scene that we see directly after Xanatos's famous line "Pay a man enough and he'll walk barefoot into Hell" is of one of the workmen moving blocks of masonry about, and the focus is on his feet. (Well, I find it amusing).

The scene of the gargoyles awakening in New York and rejoicing - then seeing how their surroundings have changed - is great. I've got to admit that New York truly seemed alien in those scenes (it helps that we're seeing it through the gargs' eyes).

I still get a smile out of the scene where Lexington throws the grenade away.

Of course, one revelation of Greg Weisman's that makes this episode all the more interesting is the fact that Goliath was, in effect, committing suicide when he asked the Magus to cast the spell upon him; he didn't know that the castle actually would rise above the clouds someday. (Not to mention the revelation that it was one of the execs who came up with that idea.)

Let's see if *this* post gets the room moving again.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, June 2, 2003 07:11:58 PM
IP: 171.75.194.254

My comments (delayed from yesterday since the room was about to clear) on "Awakening Part One".

One thing that I do find myself wondering about the first episode is this: the humans in Castle Wyvern have been living with gargoyles for twenty-three years, and know that the gargoyles are protecting them from attackers like the Vikings. Despite this, they still look down on them with scorn and contempt. I find this a bit puzzling. The humans in New York have believable reasons for being afraid of the gargoyles; they haven't had time to get used to them yet, and don't know anything about them other than that they're there. But that excuse won't work for the humans in Castle Wyvern (except for the refugees such as Tom's mother, who had only just arrived). In fact, these circumstances do make Demona's conviction that humans are never going to make peace with the gargoyles more believable, since if 23 years couldn't do the job, what could?

I suspect that if "Dark Ages" had been made, the question would have been answered in it. As it is, we can only speculate, based on the information presented in the episodes. We know that Prince Malcolm unwittingly taught his daughter to be afraid of gargoyles by using them as "bogeymen", and that would explain much of her fear of them in 994. And since she was the ruler of Castle Wyvern, that could have influenced the attitudes of a lot of the other humans there (such as the Magus). It's also quite possible that the gargoyles never did all that much mixing with the humans in the castle, holding themselves apart (they were probably still getting used to having humans living in their ancestral home and a castle built on top of it, after all). At any rate, when the submit function in "Ask Greg" is revived, I plan on asking him about this issue.

Greg Weisman mentioned this in his ramble on the episode, but - I wonder how many people picked up on the hypocrisy in Princess Katharine's angry remark about "allowing beasts in the dining-hall", when there had been a bunch of dogs roaming about there even before Goliath and Demona entered, and nobody, including her, seemed to have any problems with that. (Of course, the fact that the dogs didn't have batlike wings might have had something to do with it. :) ).

The expression on Broadway's face as he's sniffing the slime on the rookery walls still makes me smile.

The first time that I saw this episode, the argument between Goliath and Demona after leaving the great hall over their treatment by the humans reminded me a lot of "X-Men" (which I knew at the time, mind you, only from the FOX cartoon) - the same business over humans fearing what seems strange to them. Despite Greg Weisman's remarks about how a lot of people on the production team were nervous that "Gargoyles" would be perceived as a rip-off of "Batman", I really did find myself more reminded of "X-Men" than of "Batman".

I remember definitely warming to gargoyles after their little talk with Tom ending with "But what do you call each other?" "Friend." Lovely moment. Too bad that Mary and Demona had to then destroy the peace.

I still find it interesting that it was a pro-gargoyle human (the Captain) who brought about the Wyvern Massacre rather than, say, the Magus (remembering how a lot of us, including myself, initially thought that it was the Magus meeting with Hakon). It indicated that the humans vs. gargoyles wasn't quite so "black-and-white", that is, that the wrongs could be done by both sides rather than all the virtue being on the pro-gargoyle side and all the villainy on the anti-gargoyle side.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, June 2, 2003 07:26:01 AM
IP: 171.75.194.9

Number 9!

25 days until The Gathering!

Patrick
Monday, June 2, 2003 06:55:32 AM
IP: 65.43.162.101

8TH!!!!!

you know, except for last week, i almost always seem to get 8th...

matt
Monday, June 2, 2003 06:38:21 AM
IP: 207.230.48.25

7th in the name of the Fay!

Mooncat

Mooncat
Monday, June 2, 2003 05:37:55 AM
IP: 68.102.13.206

6th in the name of cute fluffy werewolf pups everywhere!
silverbolt
Monday, June 2, 2003 03:37:36 AM
IP: 81.131.145.63

Wingless:"fuzzy cowgargies-like this one"

Sickeningly cute. {:(p~ That's a cow? It could almost pass for Rockey. :D

*looks again at the pic*

I also see Hudson and what appears to be Brooklyn standing on the monitor

hmmm. Media cart, painted shelf with a row of CDs, generic vidoe boxes with post-it notes stuck to them.
Looks like the media section of a school library. I worked in one once. :p

Leo
Monday, June 2, 2003 01:21:40 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Fifth!

Leo
Monday, June 2, 2003 01:07:37 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

4th in the name of fuzzy cowgargies-like this one
Clicky ^_^

Wingless
Monday, June 2, 2003 12:30:14 AM
IP: 24.157.76.94

3rd in the name of logic!!
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, June 2, 2003 12:25:26 AM
IP: 204.94.193.66

Second !
Babs
Philly
Monday, June 2, 2003 12:00:37 AM
IP: 68.83.228.122

First!!!!!

For me!!!

Late~

Battle Beast
CanadaMonday, June 2, 2003 12:00:04 AM
IP: 66.222.190.242