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Comments for the week ending August 4, 2003

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Haven't been here in years myself. I think this was the first ep of the second season of Big O. Look for reruns.
thenumber1crab - [latimer@cableone.net]
Sunday, August 3, 2003 11:48:25 PM

Whee! I haven't been here in years. (Of course I only commented a couple of times.) Big O?? They only showed maybe 12 episodes here. I thought that was all they made.
Dernhelm Adanion - [springsprite@email.com]
Oklahoma City, OK, u.s.
Sunday, August 3, 2003 11:37:37 PM

Yeah, Brooklyn was in there also -- on the left.
thenumber1crab - [latimer@cableone.net]
Sunday, August 3, 2003 11:31:14 PM

This is NOT totally confirmed..but I'm watching the Big 0 second season. On one of the buildings, they were showing rather detailed gargoyles (which caught my eye, because its rare for a lot of nice background detail). ONE of them..I SWEAR looked like Goliath, and was holding a very similar pose.

Like I said, not totally confirmed, but at the very least, I think BIG O may have been inspired. (Especially since the series itself was inspired by the Batman animated series in the US)

Thought I would share. ^_^

Sunday, August 3, 2003 11:18:25 PM

>>In any case, sorry, Coma-Man, but as Patrick pointed out, Chris is the one who does that, not me.<<

Aw, sorry man, allways thought you were in charge of it...

However, how can I contact this... "Chris"?

The Coma-man
Berlin, germany
Sunday, August 3, 2003 08:34:16 AM

Well, I think that we'll just have to wait and see what Greg says in his reply to the question (although, given its location in the queue, we're likely to have a long wait).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, August 3, 2003 07:05:00 AM

TODD - You wrote: ["So a thousand years ago, the only human you trusted betrayed your clan". That would certainly be evidence for the Captain being the only pro-gargoyle human living there regularly.]

Its possible although the line does leave enough leeway that its possible there might have been one or two more; I do think that the situation is more interesting if its the Captain as the last remaining Human ally but still its theoretically possible to have at least someone else who would not be anti-Gargoyle. After all just because you don't trust someone doesn't mean that they are automatically your enemy.

But still again I think that it would make it more interesting if looking from the position of AWAKENINGS 1-2 really being the end of DARK AGES; that way the trend from a full friended allience to having only one last old ally left who anyway ends up betraying you is more dramatic.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, August 3, 2003 12:11:45 AM

Todd> thats a good point, but a lack of trust doesn't neccesarily mean hostility or even a negative relationship. i know that there are plenty of people in my life that i have a friendly relationship with, but i wouldn't say i trust them... at least not in the way that Goliath means it.
Airwalker is probably more correct than me in saying that alot of people at Wyvern were probably more nuetral to the situation. the soldiers at least seemed to have a "live and let live" attitude towards the Clan. i'm sure there were a wide range of attitudes about the Gargoyles at Wyvern in 994. in fact, it may have been the controversy of the topic that made things so tense and unstable in the end. perhaps the people who were pro-Gargoyle were feeling afraid and cornered by Katherine's attitude. the Captain's betrayal makes more sense in that light, i think.

Saturday, August 2, 2003 11:05:45 PM

WEHO GOLIATH TRUSTED> You noticed that line too, Todd?


Battle Beast
CanadaSaturday, August 2, 2003 10:26:54 PM

Actually, there is evidence in the series that the Captain was the only human left in Castle Wyvern by 994 (apart from Tom, who didn't regularly live there, but had merely fled there with his mother because of the threat from Hakon) who was pro-gargoyle. In "Awakening Part Three", Elisa's talking to Goliath, learning his story, and says (quoted from memory and probably not completely accurate) "So a thousand years ago, the only human you trusted betrayed your clan". That would certainly be evidence for the Captain being the only pro-gargoyle human living there regularly.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, August 2, 2003 07:25:23 PM

TODD - You wrote: [I still think that it was a good thing for Demona that she used the Grimorum to hide herself from the public at Belvedere Castle, given the way that she was dressed as a human.]

I'm still shocked that a Taxi actually stopped to pick her up given how she was dressed; in reality it wouldn't be that easy - Taxi's tend to drive past more than half naked chicks. :-)

You wrote: [but did he actually pick up on their original illiteracy in that episode?]

Given Broadway's attitude when he was interacting with Macbeth, it wouldn't be hard to guess that he couldn't read.

You wrote: [On the second viewing, however, we know that the stolen cargo also consisted of the three magic artifacts that they stole from Goliath.]

Actually I got the impression from the episode that not only was taking Coldstone a distraction for Goliath but also for Demona. Macbeth throughout the episode seems to be awake to the real goal of getting the 3 magical items. And while Demona used the Grimorium, at the end of the episode she acts very much in a daze about having actually used it while Macbeth on the other hand is going on about the primary objective.

You wrote: [And Iago definitely would be enjoying Demona and Elisa's fight, given that his principal motivation was lust, after all. (He was positively leering.)]

True; although what reaction is anyone supposed to have in that situation? :-) I liked the fact that the fight helped play into the overall theme of total distraction. (I wonder though - could it be more that the goal was to distract ELISA rather than Goliath? After all she is the detective and with all the running around and fighting she is unable to really detect much. Besides this episode is largely split between her and Coldstone. Goliath is more secondary here than anything else.)

You wrote: [Demona calling Puck a "changeling".]

Actually its Macbeth who calls him that. And while its not exactly accurate, its not a bad shorthand expression. Besides from his perspective (more limited experience with the Fey, not to mention interaction with Shakespeare) wouldn't that actually be a bit more accurate?

MATT - You wrote: [are we really all that confident that the general human populace of Wyvern before the Massacre was HOSTILE towards the Clan?]

The real question really should be "Who Make Up the Human Population of Wyvern Castle?" After all the Human refugees are people who live out in the villages surrounding the castle; they are people who have little to no contact with Gargoyles and are mostly hostile. So who would live in the Castle? I think that it was mostly the royals/nobles (i.e Katharine, Magus) and the Soldiers serving them (Captain, Commanders at the Banquet in AWAKENINGS 1). The Nobles are clearly hostile under Katharine. The Commanders, aside from the Captain are not hostile but not friendly either; they are largely neutral although leaning in the direction of the nobles. (Katharine censoring the Captain would teach the rest of the Commanders to be hostile to the Clan or incur her wrath.) I'm sure that some of the common soldiers and perhaps one or two of the staff might have been friendly to the clan; I don't think that the Captain was the only Human friend in the entire castle. But largely there was probably much negative feeling towards the Clan since most people would take their example from Katharine who is basically leader.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, August 2, 2003 03:38:08 PM

Todd> i was just reading your most recently asked question in the Ask Greg queue. are we really all that confident that the general human populace of Wyvern before the Massacre was HOSTILE towards the Clan? we only really got a few characters perspective on this: Katherine and The Magus were obviously hostile, the Captain was obviously friendly, most of the refugees seemed to range from fearful to hostile, but they were not regular occupants of the castle, nor was Tom. so really we only get three points of view: Katherine, Magus and the Captain. now its very likely that some (if not many) of the others in the castle were hostile to the Clan, but i doubt that all of them were. if you watch the battle with the Vikings, i think the other soldiers at least had a certain respect for the gargoyles at least (watch them cheer when the gargs kick Viking butt). maybe the Captain and his soldiers had a friendly relationship with the Clan, while Katherine, Magus and other nobles (and the common folk too) didn't respect, understand or recognize the Clan.

thats just a thought, i could be wrong, but i thought i'd mention it... especially cuz its been so dead in here lately...

Saturday, August 2, 2003 12:04:16 PM

I have not seen "HIgh Noon" since its original airing. It's the only Gargoyles episode that I have not seen more than 3 times. And I remember really liking it too.
Friday, August 1, 2003 03:50:15 PM

MATT - Actually, we get a brief glimpse of Iago and Desdemona in "Possession", where, while Coldstone is warning near the beginning about having to keep Iago under control, we get a scene inside his head where Desdemona is struggling with Iago, keeping him at bay. But, yes, it's only a glimpse.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, July 31, 2003 07:07:32 PM

Hey Everyone,

I come bearing an unsual but semi-desperate request. If anyone would like to write an article for Avalon Mists, or has craft projects, industry news (not necessary relating to gargoyles), choices of their favourite fanfiction. Fanfiction reviews as well, or you just honestly want an excuse to say "Look at me! I'm published on the web."

Please consider (or at least letting me know) about helpful topics for avalon mist.

I would have to get all the information by the evening of the 15th (august) or early morning of the 16th.

I would really love to see this zine come back and once again kinda fill one of the holes in fandom. So please consider.

Even if you want to do an article on this history and growth of a character from the series..that would be wonderful!

Thankyou very much for your time and consideration.

Siryn - [siryn7@aol.com]
Thursday, July 31, 2003 12:20:06 PM

Todd> the word "changling" may have that meaning in a traditional myth sense, but i don't think its the only definition of the word and i don't think the writer's misused it either. i think changling can broadly be defined as anything or anyone that can change their form at will. and Puck certaintly fits that description. also, Demona's use of the word could be another hint that she knew that Puck and Owen are the same person.

i love "High Noon" for alot of reasons:

for one thing it was our first oppurtunity to explore how Demona is reacting to turning into a human during the day, not to mention the transformation process itself.

its also the last time we see Iago and Desdemona in their "gargoyle" forms.

Thursday, July 31, 2003 09:40:03 AM

Well, if we need a topic, here's one....

I watched my tape of "High Noon" today, as a follow-up from watching "City of Stone" last week.

The first time that I saw this episode, I thought that the "coming battle" that the Weird Sisters were talking about at the end was going to be something that would take place in the season finale. I was quite surprised when it turned out to be something that would take place just 8 episodes later.

I still think that it was a good thing for Demona that she used the Grimorum to hide herself from the public at Belvedere Castle, given the way that she was dressed as a human. Just imagine the response she'd have gotten from the male passers-by if they'd noticed her in that get-up! (I still have this little creativity demon of Brendan being among those male passers-by in that alternate scenario, staring at her - and then discovering that Margot's glowering at him in considerable indignation.)

I very much liked the links to "Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" with Broadway and Hudson learning how to read with the newspaper, and then confronting Macbeth in the library (complete with Macbeth's line "And I know how to read them" - but did he actually pick up on their original illiteracy in that episode?).

One line that takes on new meaning in the second viewing: Demona and Macbeth are talking about their "stolen cargo" in Macbeth's plane. In the first viewing, that would seem like a reference to Coldstone. On the second viewing, however, we know that the stolen cargo also consisted of the three magic artifacts that they stole from Goliath. Very clever of the writers, I'd say.

And Iago definitely would be enjoying Demona and Elisa's fight, given that his principal motivation was lust, after all. (He was positively leering.) I recall some comments from people here about how amazed they were that they got that bit past S&P.

Incidentally, I wonder how many viewers, whenever Macbeth refuses to attack the gargoyles in their stone sleep on the grounds that it would be dishonorable, find themselves remembering the scenes in "City of Stone" where Duncan proves himself to be far less honorable?

One line in the episode that still bothers me a little: Demona calling Puck a "changeling". Actually, it's a misuse of the word. A changeling is a faerie who's swapped for a human child and left in the cradle in its place, but there's never been any mention in the series of that happening to Puck. Evidently the writers must have misused the word, misinterpreting it as "shape-shifter". (The only true changeling that we know of in the Gargoyles Universe is Morgan le Fay, according to Greg's Masterplan.)

(Demona's transformation scenes also remind me of that creativity demon that I had here once about some entrepreneur capturing her and putting her on display at dawn and dusk. I recall with some amusement that when I shared this creativity demon here before, somebody promptly asked me if the entrepreneur in question was a eunuch.)

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, July 30, 2003 07:01:50 PM

Wow, its really quiet in here this week. I guess everyone is over in the TGS room. We really could use a topic for discussion in here.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:46:30 AM

It was a sad day, indeed.

I watched "Biography" of Bob Hope and he truely was a great man.

He has over 1,500 awards... 2 guiness records... a SHIP (USNS carrier Bob Hope) a Plane (The Spirit of Bob Hope)...

Holly Wood and Vine named "Bob Hope Square"...


I live in Edmonton, Alberta, and Bob only came here to Alberta a couple times, and only once to Edmonton, in 1977. He did two shows, and my parents went to one of them.


The final joke he made:

"Thank you, Thank you, you've been a great audiance! Now how do I get to L.A. from here? By Moose?"

I recently watched "The Road to Morrocco." I LOVED IT. I thnk Bob Hope was a GREAT man, and there will never be another like him.

All I know is that he's up there somewhere, entertaining frineds and doing another "Road" movie with Bing.

We'll miss ya, Bob.

Battle Beast
CanadaTuesday, July 29, 2003 05:25:42 PM

Greg posted his obituary for Bob Hope at "Ask Greg". You might be interested in reading it.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 08:56:47 AM

Patrick, very well put. I'm a huge fan of him, But I must say out of all times Ive seen him and the shows I heard, Dressed to kill is the best one by far. which has its ups and downs, since for that one you have to see the actions he makes to understand it, but I guess once you've seen him you'll see the show in your head as he talks.We stole countries! That's how you build an empire. We stole countries with the cunning use of flags! Sail halfway around the world, stick a flag in. "I claim India for Britain." And they're going, "You can't claim us. We live here! There's five hundred million of us." "Do you have a flag?" "We don't need a flag, this is our country you bastard!" <-- also Eddie Izzard tp follow up on Patricks

Philly, Pa
Monday, July 28, 2003 03:09:24 PM

I may never make the top ten :(
Monday, July 28, 2003 08:23:06 AM

I mean 10th. :)
Monday, July 28, 2003 07:14:23 AM

Monday, July 28, 2003 07:13:10 AM

Ninth! :: flag ::

"No flag, no country! Those are the rules that I... just made up!" - Eddie Izzard

Monday, July 28, 2003 07:09:13 AM

errr, make that 8th.........
Monday, July 28, 2003 06:49:03 AM

7TH in the name of water, shade, and sleep... three things i'm loving right now!
Monday, July 28, 2003 06:48:36 AM

7th in the name of my tailbone!
Graymonk - [mmckinnongra@hotmail.com]
Monday, July 28, 2003 06:48:33 AM

6th in the name of... FUDGE! And LAWNMOWERS!

and and... um...


Fire Storm
Monday, July 28, 2003 04:58:11 AM

5th in the name of the Fay!


Monday, July 28, 2003 03:03:44 AM

Knoxville - [knox@ketnar.org]
Monday, July 28, 2003 01:20:58 AM

Huh, third. Well, wha'doya know.
Monday, July 28, 2003 12:41:55 AM

#2 in the name of....ummmm......being flightless...grounded...earthbound....glidingly challanged...er, you get the point ^_^
Monday, July 28, 2003 12:38:25 AM

#1 in the name of logic
Monday, July 28, 2003 12:25:27 AM