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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending September 1, 2003

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Jim R> Yes, it is true. Greg Weisman has said it himself.
Sunday, August 31, 2003 11:56:03 PM

I agree with matt. I fail to see why Disney doesn't take more advantage of the only series that draws a crowd to conventions every year. ;) But I guess they are finally beginning to open their eyes. Everyone's going to buy the DVD, right?

Speaking of which, I read recently (catching up on lots of things) that it was pushed back to 2004 to coincide with a 10th anniversary release. Is this true?

Jim R.
Sunday, August 31, 2003 11:10:46 PM

The reason is fairly simple. As much as Disney hates to fail, they hate a hundred times more to admit they made a mistake. And bringing back any series that they cancelled would amount to doing just that.
Sunday, August 31, 2003 08:45:00 PM

Disney> heres what i don't get. every year Disney launches a few new animated series and the vast majority of these are failures. meanwhile, they have an already existing universe (thereby cutting alot of predroduction costs) that has been around for ten years and still has an ESTABLISHED fan base and they won't give it another try or at least a spinoff. i mean, Disney is a business and like all businesses they are trying and desearve to make money, but isn't it far more profitable to market something you already know will sell than to take a risk with a new product? if Disney makes a new animated series they throw alot of money into it and it'll still likely fail, but if Disney throws money into a new Gargoyles based series they will still spend alot of money and (i hate to admit it) theres still a possibility it could fail, but with a Gargoyles series that failure rate would be much lower because you will already have us as an audience from the first episode! it doesn't make sense...
whats really strange is all these Disney sequels that are coming out! they are trying hard to milk every penny out of those properties, so why are they letting Gargoyles sit in the vault? i don't get it.
maybe if one you guys is a business major or something you can explain this to me, but i've never understood the issue...

Sunday, August 31, 2003 08:20:12 PM

My feelings exactly, Shogun. Disney has never realized what a gem of series they had. First they drove it into the ground with the Goliath Chronicles, now they mostly act as if never existed. In the modern Disney's quest for maximum profits, their smaller properties are getting the short shrift.
James Anatidae AKA Jonathan Parshall - [parshall@citcom.net]
Brevard, NC, USA
Sunday, August 31, 2003 07:03:01 PM

I was watching some gargs tapes a friend of mine lent me and I was wondering...why is disney attempting to do to us what fox did to futurama? they play the other disney stuff multiple times a day but gargs? no such luck, and I can't fathom why, it's intelligent, well-animated well-written and manages to to actually get points across without being preachy, is it because they think kids are so stupid? do they think the show's too frightening? and have we just gotten so afraid of p*$$*ng off the soccer moms that we let these lazy good-for-nothing parents use the TV instead of actually parenting their kids? granted we're getting DVDs but I can't help but shake the feeling we're gonna get stiffed somehow
Shogun raptor
Sunday, August 31, 2003 02:11:47 AM

ON ICE> I never knew about that one, But I remember Gummie Bears on Ice.

They handed out little bottles of "Gummie Berry Juice" which was just a cherry kool-aid give away!


Battle Beast
CanadaSunday, August 31, 2003 01:23:27 AM

The posts about the "spin-off" remeinded me of a commercial I saw in 1996. As long as I can remember the State Fair has had a "Disney On Ice" show every year (not sure if they still do) and in 1996 I saw one commercial for "Gargoyles on Ice." Really! Has anyone else heard of this?
Dernhelm - [springsprite@email.com]
Oklahoma City
Saturday, August 30, 2003 11:55:47 PM

Jimmy> "Why does the room always get so lively when I'm away?"
damnit, Jimmy! you forgot to say *knocks on wood*! looks like you killed the room! :)

Saturday, August 30, 2003 09:18:24 PM

Gabriel - <<Graymonk> Interesting. Was there a particular book that you read that from, or was it mostly lecture? I'd be interested in reading about that.>> Mostly lecture, although the prof has published a book, "The Goddess Unmasked" by Philip Davies. I'm not sure if it has anything about this stuff in it though as I don't own a copy (Prof Davies didn't think it was right to line his pockets by forcing his students to by his book for the course).

I did read an article about early Christian magic but I forget who wrote it, Natalie Zemon Davies maybe?

Graymonk - [mmckinnongra@hotmail.com]
Friday, August 29, 2003 09:56:07 AM

Jimmy> "Why does the room always get so lively when I'm away?"
We just don't love you anymore. ;)

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Thursday, August 28, 2003 06:23:23 PM

Why does the room always get so lively when I'm away?

"A new "Gargoyles-based" spin-off, with the main character (and the very person whom the spin-off is named after) being E--n P-x - and the title sequence includes people chanting "E--n P-x" over and over all the way through."
-I would kill the man that green-lights that show. And not a quick death either. It would be slow and painful.

JJT> I always imagined that the Magus, being educated and not a member of the Clergy raised the Eggs in a Gargoyle fashion. Viewing, all 3 humans as their parents and teaching them the "Gargoyle way." Even Tom, it seemed, was much more influenced by Gargoyle moral standards than Greco-Roman/Judeo-Christian ones. The Magus, acting like a penitent ever since he cursed the clan probably felt that he owed it to Goliath to raise the Eggs as Goliath would have wanted them raised.

Interesting point though. Hope you stick around for some more.

Jim R.> Welcome back.

Thursday, August 28, 2003 06:11:35 PM

This is something that I should have mentioned in my "Avalon Part Three" post yesterday, but I've got a strong suspicion as to who was behind those two suits of armor guarding Arthur's sleeping-place in the Hollow Hill.

Somebody asked Greg about that recently, and he replied that while he didn't want to reveal the answer, we could figure out who had enchanted them by reading his previous comments about "Pendragon" in the archives. And by studying them (well, more by having simply remembered all the biggies that Greg's said in them), I came to my own conclusion.

Greg said that Arthur was brought to Avalon by the Lady of the Lake, Morgan le Fay, and Nimue. These three presumably also had some involvement in placing him in the Hollow Hill. Now, we know that the Lady of the Lake is one of Oberon's Children, which means that she can't do anything to iron armor. Morgan le Fay is also one of the Oberati (although a changeling, left in a cradle in Tintagel in place for the actual human child whom the Third Race stole), so she wouldn't be able to "magic" anything iron either. But Nimue is human (though stolen by the Third Race with Morgan left in her place), so she'd be able to do it. She had both the means and the opportunity, which doesn't apply to anyone else (Merlin was already, from what Greg's said, sealed up in the Crystal Cave).

I could be wrong, but that's still my conclusion based on the evidence.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, August 28, 2003 05:59:38 PM

Graymonk> Interesting. Was there a particular book that you read that from, or was it mostly lecture? I'd be interested in reading about that.
Thursday, August 28, 2003 10:06:18 AM

(Color change for legibility)
I did it again, Mr. Weisman! :(

JJ "Gregarius" (T)
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 11:04:41 PM

Oh, one more thing. After reading today's comments, I think I was mistaken about the "loophole" business. That would probably rule the Magus out.
JJ "Gregarius" (T)
Orlando, FL
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 11:03:16 PM

Thought I'd throw in a screen name of mine. I had developed it for the Gargoyles club on the old PRODIGY service. It was supposed to be Latin for "fellow soldier"; I didn't know the English word "gregarious" at the time. (I learned it quickly, though!)

Enough of that.

Jim R.>>
IIRC, the quest for the Holy Grail would make an appearance in _Pendragon_ (hope I got the series name right). As that is a Christian artifact, that would heavily suggest that Arthur is Christian, but not prove it.

Also, Gargoyles does seem to walk the tightrope concerning religion rather well. I'm just a little piqued over the "Redemption Squad" brouhaha. Getting hit by political correctness gone wild is no fun! What was it that Shakespeare said about lawyers? ;)

Evermore >>
Actually, I was willing to see a corrupt, hypocritical priest. However, a priest seeking a relationship with a women would be quite a stretch. Note to self: Stop thinking like a Protestant.

Greg Weismann >>
Interesting to see I got your attention. Thank you for the kind words; I was actually fearing your response!

* * * *

I think I better let the religious debate die down for the time. Speaking of religious debates*, David Warner, who played Dillenger/Sark/Master Control Program in _Tron_, is quite a good pick for the Archmage, no? Who else can say lines like "If you don't know, don't guess!" or "This means you,"** and send shivers down your spine? It's a good thing the Archmage couldn't show up in the end of "Future Tense," however. I'd probably be laughing so hard I would miss the end of the story.

Why? Remember the background for the battle in the computer? If you watch _Tron_ just after you watch "Future Tense," you will see something *very* *familiar*....

Oh, and thank you, Mr. Weisman, for not having anyone in the computer say "de-rezz." That would have set me off too.

* This a reference to something Dillinger said in _Tron_
** This is a line Sark said in _Tron_. If you want to know more, go watch the movie. I want Disney to see that there is demand for more adventures in the Electronic World. Maybe we can get the suits to OK the script for a sequel to Tron, and have that movie come out around the time the Gargoyles movie does. I can dream, can't I?
JJ "Gregarius" (T)
Orlando, FL
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 10:51:52 PM

BLAISE - Thanks for stopping by. I don't think that it's so odd that the Avalon clan do so poorly against Demona; remember, this was their first battle. Everything on Avalon had been so peaceful before the Archmage and his followers showed up that, as Gabriel pointed out, they'd never needed to do much combat training.

I'm probably going to regret saying this, but, just for the fun of it, here's the "Ultimate Nightmare Scenario" for the return of "Gargoyles":

A new "Gargoyles-based" spin-off, with the main character (and the very person whom the spin-off is named after) being E--n P-x - and the title sequence includes people chanting "E--n P-x" over and over all the way through.

I hope that I haven't given the entire comment room a bad case of nightmares. :)

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 10:39:49 PM

****The whole Room starts to shake, as though in the grip of an earthquake. However, the focal point of the vibration is not from beneath the ground, but from the door to the long corridor. Suddenly, the door bursts open, only to close an instant later. Into the room has dashed the ragged form of Blaise, who has now plastered himself against the door, braced for some sort of onslaught. And the onslaught comes, and for a time it seems as though the door, even the very wall itself, shall be rent assunder, but eventually, the din subsides and the Room is calm and still once more. Blaise slides to the floor with a sigh of relief.**** Sorry...but it was all I could do to get away from the duties of RL. Anyway, time for a little catching up....

TODD> Happy Belated Birthday! (Sorry for the tardiness of this--I hope it was a good one).

JJ T> Welcome to the Comment Room!! I sincerely hope you do stick around--it's always nice to have a fresh perspective.
As for the subject of our discussion:

THE AVALON CLAN'S UPBRINGING> I may try to take some time to search through the ASK GREG archives tonight, but I do remember someone asking Greg a question similar to JJ T's (although I cannot, for the life of me, remember if it was in the new or old archives). At any rate, Greg said that he did not view Katharine and Tom (and the Magus as well, I think--don't hold me to that) as being "particularly devout," but that they did give the hatchlings a basic teaching of Christianity, with "a healthy dose of paganism."
Also, in a later answer (and I'm fairly sure this one would be in the new archives), Greg mentioned that the Magus would have wanted "to do [Goliath] right by [the hatchlings]" (and that's a pretty horrid paraphrasing on my part) and so would have taught the hatchlings all that he knew of Gargoyle beliefs, rituals, and culture. So, all in all, the hatchlings had a smattering of at least three beliefs--though I suppose we could endlessly debate as to whether their Christian learnings were greater than their Gargoylian learnings.
Now, despite all this, we must keep in mind that there was in all likely-hood no bibles on the island, and no priests (and no, I doubt the Magus would be a member of the Christian clergy--nor do I think that he and they were that antagonistic toward each other at Wyvern). This would limit any Christian teachings for the clan to the most basic concepts and figures that the human parents would remember. Of course, Tom made at least 9 trips out into the world before the AVALON three-parter, so who's to say what he may have brought back.
Finally, how can we make a hard and fast assumption for all 33 males and females in the clan (that's 36 minus the three gargoyle beasts)? Angela, Gabriel, and Ophelia may not have been particularly Christian, but we have yet to meet Michael, Raphael (sp?), Azrael, or Archangel (if one of them is actually named that). Heck, Greg Weisman said that even among the Manhatten clan, he didn't see any of them as particularly spiritual (with the exception of Coldfire).
Long story short ("TOO LATE!") the main characters (including Angela), whatever their beliefs, don't seem to "practice" them too much.

GOLIATH AND THE ARCHMAGE> Rather than try to go over the whole multi-parter (which I loved), I'm going to touch on a couple of things. First is this battle.
One thing that really struck me about this later on, is that the Archmage is pretty much the oldest foe that Goliath and his clan has ever faced (with the possible exception of Coldsteel). I mean, yes he is a very cliched fellow (and leave it to the creative staff of Gargoyles to make that a real part of his very character), but when Goliath fights him at the end of this multi-parter I can't help but feel a certain "epic" quality to the confrontation. Here is a foe whose machinations have been foiled by the clan (though to what extent, we don't know since the DARK AGES spinoff never made it) and has been personally defeated at least once by Goliath. Now he returns ("from the dead" so to speak) in a form more powerful than before, and begins to enact vengence on Goliath. The centuries-spanning plan also helps that. And then, too, Greg has speculated that he might show up as an antagonist for Brooklyn in TIMEDANCER. I can't quite do the feeling I have for this any justice in words, but suffice to say there almost seems to be a world of meaning in Goliath's "It is over" after the Archmage is destroyed by the magic he took into his own body. At least...I like to think so.

THE WEIRD SISTERS> The amazing thing about them is that they hold three separate aspects--Fury, Fate, and Grace. So, they could very well have HONESTLY meant what they said about vengence, and yet HONESTLY sought after it.

THE DIVISION OF FINAL BATTLES> Just a footnote here:
Arthur and Macbeth, the timeless kings, square off.
Goliath defeats the Archmage, with help from Angela.
The Magus bravely makes a final stand against the Weird Sisters.
And Demona takes on Elisa...and Gabriel...Bronx, Boudicca, Tom the Guardian, a wounded Ophelia and Princess Catharine. Oh yeah, and those gargs on the battlements who can't aim to save their lives. It takes HALF THE CAST to take that woman down! Sheesh.

Okay, I'm finished. You can rest assured that I will post again, though it's anyone's guess as to when. Until then, farewell. ****Blaise dives into the lit fireplace, and is instantly absorbed by the flames.****

Wednesday, August 27, 2003 10:18:05 PM

JJ "Gregarius" (T)
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 09:41:55 PM

Didn't Greg say that while Goliath and the Archmage were teleporting around that they were actually bouncing in and out of multiple time periods? How much time really passed while those two were wrestling for the eye of odin? Wonder if a Time dancing Brooklyn may have met the two?
Troy, NY, USA
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 08:41:51 PM

EVERMORE - I felt much the same way about the Weird Sisters myself. One thing that has occurred to me is that there are similar cases (kind of) in Shakespeare, where the characters who make impressive speeches about virtue aren't all that virtuous themselves. The first time that I read "Othello" all the way through, I was astonished and even a little shocked to discover that the play was filled with many "famous quotes" about the "right thing to do" (such as "He who steals my purse steals trash" or the bit about jealousy being the "green-eyed monster"), and they're all spoken by Iago! (And generally while he's manipulating Othello, at that.) Or Polonius's advice to Laertes - Polonius actually being a garrulous bore with very little perception (he keeps on believing that the reason why Hamlet's acting oddly is because of Ophelia, even after Claudius, at least, picks up on the fact that there's some other reason for it). So maybe it makes sense that the Weird Sisters (Shakespearean characters themselves) turn out to not quite practice what they preach. (Another familiar line, this one from "The Merchant of Venice", "The Devil can quote Scripture for his purpose.")

At any rate, I saw the final part of "Avalon" on tape today. I very much enjoyed it (especially King Arthur's introduction, though you all knew that). And the Archmage being as malevolent as ever. (One of my favorite bits is where Goliath and the Archmage are fighting and the Phoenix Gate starts teleporting them all about).

One thing that I find interesting (if probably coincidental) is that Elisa is the one who awakens King Arthur. Greg's mentioned that Arthur's role was to be on a much larger stage than Britain, and Elisa's not (at least, not primarily) of British descent, but an American with African and Amerind ancestry. I think that it's just a coincidence, but I still find it fun.

And I've got to say one thing about the Magus: he might have been old, but he was also tough. I'm not talking about his fight with the Weird Sisters; I'm talking about how Elisa is having trouble keeping up with him all the way to the Hollow Hill.

The Magus's death-scene is very moving, especially when Goliath thanks him for saving the eggs. I wonder what the impact on the Magus must have been when he heard Goliath say that, in light of how he'd spent the past "thousand years" (well, less than that by Avalon time) burdened with unending guilt over what he'd done to Goliath, and now learns that Goliath will be remembering him for raising the clan's children rather than cursing the clan. I think that it eases the pain of his death a little.

One possible nit in the episode: Princess Katharine is able to operate Demona's laser cannon just like that, even though she comes from a society that hadn't even developed or thought of conventional firearms. But it's a great scene - and it was a definite case of "don't mess with the momma". (I very much like Tom's awed and admiring response to her defeating Demona with it.)

One amusing note (in light of later episodes): Goliath vows that he'll see to it that the Phoenix Gate and Eye of Odin are never used again; as it turns out, both *are* used again, and by he himself!

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 07:13:51 PM

Gargoyles and religion> Reading over most of everything, the sole thing I can input here is I believe it's safe to agree that King Arthur is Chrisitian, although it wasn't "directly" implied in Gargoyles, just simply that he was "holy" I suppose is the word for it. If any character in the series at all was religious, it's he. After all, his characer has that reputation of Arthurian legend in the series and I believe (if memory serves) it was a church from which he acquired the information about seeking Excalibur, right?

I always thought Gargoyles in general, handled religious exposure pretty well (especially during the World Tour episodes). Enough for viewers to get the message and learn about cultures abroad, but not so much as to sway your beliefs in any way. It was a great "anthropological" show!

Oh yes...and it feels great to be back and post in here again! It's been a LONG time and I intend to get back into my routine at posting often again.

Jim R. - [jim@dialwforwarp.com]
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 06:46:03 PM

I think JJT raises interesting questions -- and politely, no less. It certainly got the room hopping, which has to be a good thing.
Greg Weisman
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 02:27:10 PM

Gabriel - Actually, if I recall my "Occult and Alternative Relgions" class correctly the sort of rabid anti-witchcraft attitude you describe didn't start until the late middle ages/early modern period.

The common people believed in witches and were scared of them but the Chruch's position was something to the effect of (and I'm paraphrasing here)"there is no power but God's power, therefore all these so called spells you think you've seen are nothing but your imgination. Witchcraft is not real, witches aren't real, stop talking about this stuff. And please stop stealling our priest's shirts to protect you from harm, that's not going to work either."

For that matter, a lot of devout Christians practiced magic. Because the mass and Bible were both in Latin at the time it was common for Chirstians to believe with all their heart that God existed but still be ignorant of most of Christianity's tennents, including any provisions against magic. The lord's prayer, either in written or spoken form, was often used in protection spells. The practice of priests putting communion waffers directly into the faithful's mouth began because churchgoers would palm the wafer and take it home to use in the cast of love spells and other charms.

Katherine could have been devout Christians and still tolerated the Magus considering how wide spread Christian Magic was in the earlier middle ages.

Avalon - I remember being blwon away by all the revealations that were thrown at us in two episodes. When I heard the Archmage was the villain I rmember feeling skeptical but willing to believe the guys who wrote the show would make him cool. I didn't catch the meaning of sleeping king until Elisa said "Arthur Pendragon" but once I realised who he was I immediately did a happy dance :) As for the Weird Sisters, I don't remember having a problem with them being bad guys but when part 1 ended I thought they had formed a reluctant alliance with Tom & co becasue I mistook Angela and Gabriel for Demona and Coldtone and assumed that they'd recruited Deomna, Macbeth and Coldstone to fight the Archmage.

Graymonk - [mmckinnongra@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 12:02:43 PM

I doubt K and T were religious at all seeing as how they sought counsel from a *sorceror*. If K and T were true adherents to the Word of God, they would not have suffered a witch among them since the Bible clearly states to not be among praticitoners of magic. And back then, they didn't believe in the "what's true for me is not always true for you" motto that runs rampant in religion today; so the magus would not have been tolerated among them. My conclusion is that they weren't religious, the gargoyles were not brought up to be faithful in Christ, and their biblical names were just that: just names the princess and company liked since they were Angels' names. If they had any religion, they probably didn't believe in it very strongly or were probably pagans.

Just my two cents. :)
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 10:36:35 AM

JJT: While a castle as large as Wyvern probably would have had one, I highly doubt the Magus was a priest. In the episodes he appears in he is proud, wrathful, envious, and lustful. You could even make a case for him being greedy for him not wanting to give up the Grimorum at Avalon's gate. Thats four or five of seven deadly sins which is not a good scorecard for any priest. On top of that, he wears no religious clothing or jewlery and had he been a priest, he would have held a bible in far greater standards than the Grimorum, a book a sorcery.

But, as you say, he is literate and intelligent, so I don't doubt he has a good understanding of Christianity, but he probably was quite knowledgable about all or most religions, pagan or otherwise, that were practiced in the region at the time.

I imagine, like any parents, he, Katherine, and Tom would have taught the young gargoyles everything that they knew and allowed them to make their own choices when they came of age.

Re: "Avalon" Part 1 and 2: The Avalon episodes are really fun to watch. I love the whole backstory of how Tom, Katherine, the Magus and the eggs survived a thousand years. It was (at least for me) a little much to comprehend in one viewing though. The back-and-forth with the two Archmages in the second part is probably the funniest part of the entire series, too.

The one part that disappoints me, though, is the revelation that this was the coming battle the Wierd Sisters spoke of. It just seemed contradictory to their actions in "City of Stone and "High Noon," but I suppose its a minor complaint.

Thats all I've got. Bye now.

Evermore - [pfog@velocity.net]
Albion, PA, USA
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 09:50:23 AM

i want to add this on to Bud-Clare's last post:

even if K, T, and the M WERE devout Christians, that doesn't mean that any or all of the eggs would end up that way. my siblings and i were all raised in a very Christian household. my mom is even a lay minister at our church! over the years now we've changed. as children its easy to accept the stories and beliefs your parents thought you, but as you mature most people began to work it out for themselves. my brother and i are no longer very religious at all, and my sister has gone from a liberal Catholic to a conservative Southern Baptist (much to my chagrin).
so you see, as we get older we can easily change how religious we are. some of us become more devout than how we are brought up and some of us less so.
so assuming that K, T, and the M were devout Christians (which seems unlikely and presents no proof) and assuming they passed on their beliefs (which, again, seems unlikely in a place apart from the rest of the world like Avalon) then there is no guarantee that any of the Avalon Clan would be Christian. its possible, sure, but without any outside influence, it seems improbable...

Wednesday, August 27, 2003 08:58:43 AM

For that matter, the name "Ophelia" could be considered anachronistic, since the evidence indicates that the Avalon gargoyles were hatched (and presumably named) long before Shakespeare ever wrote "Hamlet" (assuming that he was the one who first came up with the name "Ophelia") - Greg indicated once that the Avalon gargs were hatched in the latter half of the 11th century (or the equivalent to that in Avalon time). Of course, the name could have been around but unrecorded long before Shakespeare's time.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 08:44:35 AM

JJT> "I notice you keep on talking about "converting" the "eggs." "
That's funny, since I used the word "convert" exactly once, and it wasn't even specifically related to the eggs.

"I do not understand where you are coming from, as they were raised from when they hatched by Christian parents."
I don't understand how you missed me pointing out that their parents were far from typical Christians.

"I assume, then, that the "eggs" would be raised to believe in Jesus, like any children of Christians."
I'm sure they _do_ believe in him... the same way they believe in any historical figure.

I'm not sure that you understand the situation. The Magus was, in all likelihood, not religious. Tom was a child, so Christianity wouldn't have become particularly ingrained yet, and there would have been heavy Pagan influences to his upbringing anyway. That leaves Katharine, who also would have been somewhat Pagan, and who never showed any signs of being at all devout. These three people moved to a magical island which, according to standard Christian beliefs, should not even exist. They spent years there before the eggs were even hatched, totally cut off from all religious influences. It is not at all unlikely that whatever religious beliefs they had arrived with would have largely lapsed by the time the eggs hatched. I'm sure they told the eggs a lot about Christianity... just not in the way that you seem to think they ought to have. Angela probably _is_ more Christian than the rest of the Manhattan Clan... but she's still less Christian than Christians are. (That sounds very odd.)

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 07:51:38 AM

JJ T > I think you "assume" too much. You assume that Katharine, Tom, and the Magus are devout Christians. You assume that they'd raise the Avalon gargoyles in the faith. You assume that anyone who ever hears about the faith in any way, shape, or form will always choose to blindly follow it. Those are three pretty big leaps of logic. The fact remains, it's Greg Weisman's universe to interpet as he wishes.

Also, just because *some* of the Avalon gargoyles were named after figures from the Judeo-Christian writings doesn't imply anything, either. Angela and Ophelia are not names out of the Bible, so it's pretty obvious that Katharine and the Magus did not just pull out a Bible when picking names.

Anyway... time to head off to the cubes!

"Father, forgive me. I poked a badger with a spoon! / Ah, finally! An *original* sin!" - Eddie Izzard

Wednesday, August 27, 2003 07:27:13 AM

Yes, I am an insomniac!
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 04:48:40 AM

Bud-claire, I apologize for the exclamation point abuse. I hadn't realized how much I used it. Hadn't realized how "hyperactive" my tone became, either. I think this comes from trying to do too much in one post. (Or maybe I was in a jovial mood? I dunno) If I can limit myself to one thought at a time, I think I can write much tighter responses than the ones I have.

I notice you keep on talking about "converting" the "eggs." I do not understand where you are coming from, as they were raised from when they hatched by Christian parents. I assume, then, that the "eggs" would be raised to believe in Jesus, like any children of Christians.

However, I assume that the gargoyles' faith is somehow compatible with Christianity for Greg Weisman wrote, "[The Manhattan Clan] wouldn't recognize that [Judeo-Christian]God as being inconsistent with their faith. " Thus, Angela should follow Christianity and the gargoyle faith. The question is, of course, how can the gargoyle faith be compatible with the Judeo-Christian God? This question can be answered: I've heard of people mixing Taoism and Christianity, for instance.
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 04:43:38 AM

JJT> First off, it's impossible for anyone to take you seriously when you use so many exclamation points. It makes you seem hyperactive.

"Wythern is clearly a part of Christendom at this time."
Yeeessss.... and Wyvern was also in a remote part of Scotland. The more remote the area, the greater the hold that paganism still had on the people. I doubt that Christian-Pagan hybrids would feel any particular compulsion to convert people. (And that's ignoring all the other perfectly good reasons why Katharine and Tom didn't raise the eggs as Christians.)

"Yet the gargoyle who was named after Gabriel wasn't told?"
Obviously he was told. That doesn't mean that he was told that he had to believe it.

"Please forgive me, but this simple oops bears all sorts of bizarre results and funny ironies!"
Both the mistake and the irony exist only in your mind.

"I had assumed Katharine and Tom taught the "eggs" about Christ and about gargoyle tradition. *Both*"
They would have taught the eggs all sorts of things... The problem here, I think, is that you seem to assume that anyone who is taught about Christianity will automatically want to be Christian. This is not the case.

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 03:04:37 AM

First, I thought of some counter examples to my accusation that Disney tries to deny Christianity. If you know where to look, you can find a representation of Jesus in the Haunted Mansion (at least at Disney World). Also, in the Gargoyles episode "Vows" that was a Christian marriage ceremony IIRC.

However, there are still signs that some people at Disney are afraid to even hint the religion. Think about "Redemption Squad" for a minute. While the word "redemption" has a specific Christian meaning, it also has a more generic meaning. "Redemption" is the act of redeeming, and Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) has the following definition under "to redeem":
6. To pay the penalty of; to make amends for; to serve as an
equivalent or offset for; to atone for; to compensate; as,
to redeem an error.
This is most likely the meaning that Weisman had in mind, and the meaning that would come to the show's audience.
Banning the word "redemption" because of a certain religious meaning of the word seems downright paranoid to me! I don't expect Disney to endorse Christianity (where would that put Weisman now?), but going to extremes to deny it is offensive.

Now, I don't expect "VeggieTales." I don't expect everyone to do Christian things in Disney cartoons, just the people who are clearly Christian! Remember Friar Tuck and the church in Walt Disney's Robin Hood? It belonged there, no? Yet it wasn't overly "Christian," was it? That's what I expect to see.

That being said, I am *not* I repeat *not* upset at Weisman! I think he just made an honest mistake. My discussion about the denial of Christianity was prompted more about reading about the name "Redemption Squad" being censored, actually.

A few more points:
* Don't get me wrong: I loved Rabbi Tuck in "Robin Hood: Men in Tights." That was a parody, though. Slightly different beast. ;)

* DPH >Are you sure that the Magus would have read the bible or ran
>across a monk who would have said something about it?
Actually, I would think Castle Wythern would have a priest. And I'm not sure that that priest wasn't the Magus! He's literate, after all. Also, medieval people had a way of allowing for magic, IIRC. A "loophole" if you will. Can't recall what the loophole was, though. (Even today, Harry Potter's magic has been defended by some pastors and such IIRC)

* Telling others about Jesus Christ is a fundamental tenet of Christianity from the time of the Disciples.

* Wythern is clearly a part of Christendom at this time. To see why, think about names like "Tom." Now, the Catholic Church had sweeping power at this time. Would they allow a non-Christian ruler on Christian land?

* Katharine wanted to name the "eggs" after archangels! If she's not Christian, what is she? Muslim? Jewish?? Seriously, IIRC there were Jews in the British Isles at this time, but Jewish royalty?

* Gabriel was the angel who told Mary that she would bear Jesus. Yet the gargoyle who was named after Gabriel wasn't told? *chuckles* Please forgive me, but this simple oops bears all sorts of bizarre results and funny ironies! That's what makes Weisman's goof fun! Pobody's Nerfect, ya know! :)

* To a Christian, it is an act of great love to tell your kids about the "good news" (gospel) of Jesus. It's not a mean act to destroy culture! Until I (mis?)read Weisman, I had assumed Katharine and Tom taught the "eggs" about Christ and about gargoyle tradition. *Both*

* Actually, I think Weisman did *not* mean to say that Angela didn't worship the Judeo-Chrisitan God. I just assumed she would be included in the Manhattan clan.

It's late. I better stop for now.
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 01:33:36 AM

........................Would the third race even believe in a higher power? They ARE a higher power (compared to us humans). They probably consider themselves gods. I don't think they even considered Oberon a god, just their king.


Wednesday, August 27, 2003 01:27:28 AM

Patrick - <Now, to put real life aside for a moment and crawl into the "Gargoyles" universe... are we really sure the Magus
was a devout Christian? A lot of people seem to assume it, but it seems questionable to me given the fact that
if you're a devout Christian, you will not practice sorcery because the Biblical doctrine says witchcraft is of
Satan.> You forget the big assumption. Are you sure that the Magus would have read the bible or ran across a monk who would have said something about it? If I recall right, back then, the bible wasn't exactly in wide scale distribution.

Actually, I would be more interested in the religious beliefs of the members of the 3rd race, if they had any.

Wednesday, August 27, 2003 12:59:14 AM

Disney doesn't specifically endorse ANY particular religion in their programming because they are not in the business of promoting religion. They are in the business of producing shows that will sell to as wide an audience as possible and thus earn them as much return on investment as possible. So it seems a little silly to me to ask why Christianity didn't receive more screen time in "Gargoyles" when "Gargoyles" was not doing anything differently in that regard than any of the other "Disney Afternoon" shows. You might as well be asking why we never saw Aladdin and Jasmine praying to Allah three times an episode, or why we never saw Chip & Dale do anything religious (aside from that unfortunate incident with Mickey's Christmas tree many years back, of course).

Now, to put real life aside for a moment and crawl into the "Gargoyles" universe... are we really sure the Magus was a devout Christian? A lot of people seem to assume it, but it seems questionable to me given the fact that if you're a devout Christian, you will not practice sorcery because the Biblical doctrine says witchcraft is of Satan. And we have nothing in evidence to peg Katharine as a being overly devout, either.

Also, given that this is the 10th century we're talking about, and Christianity didn't develop it's "hard sell" mentality until several centuries later, when the Inquisitions came along... maybe it just never occurred to them that they should be teaching a human religion to those impressionable young gargoyles. They didn't see fit to teach the gargoyles to dress like humans, after all. So that would give us some evidence that they were at least somewhat cognizant of the need for them to retain their own culture.

So there's my two cents on that.

Tuesday, August 26, 2003 11:43:19 PM

>>Christians believe that *everyone* sins
Actually, one who believes in Christ (If the Christian Bible is true) should have help in not sinning (Believing in Christ = letting God into your heart). Nobody's perfect, though. (save the one example I gave, again if Christian belief is true)

>>Do they view gargoyles as mere animals, such as dogs?
That should be "Do Tom and Princess Katharine...," not Christians in general. (That would be a reaching statement, no?)
Tuesday, August 26, 2003 10:27:41 PM

I have so much to say, and so little space and time!

First, let me say I really, really enjoy Gargoyles! However I am afraid I will come off as a troll to some here, and I apologize in advance. I do not wish to offend anyone. I just want to get things off my chest.

Also, sorry about misspelling Weisman.

My real problem with the sort of problem I bring up is that I fear Disney has decided to pretend that Christianity doesn't exist. I have far better examples, such as the rejection of the name "The Redemption Squad" for *apparent* religious connotations. However, I don't have much room to talk about that right now.

Todd, Re: Salvation

I'm not sure how far I want to go on this thread here (I could seed discord here rather easily with this!), but recall Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (NIV translation) Also, John 4:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

For an example the ease of sin and it's dreadful penalty in Christianity, check out Matthew 5:28-9 "...anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery.... If your right eye causes you to sin, gorge it out.... It is better for you to lose [your eye] than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."

From all this I infer that intelligent non-humans, like extraterrestrials and, in this fiction gargoyles, would be sinners by nature as well. It helps that I currently view early Genesis as Judeo-Christian myth -- in this instance then gargoyles may be sons of Adam as they are intelligent! I'm really not sure off this though! My belief is not that radical: I think it's common knowledge that Christians believe that *everyone* sins, with the exception of Christ the begotten Son of God. (Kinda makes him unique, ya know?). It's just too easy to sin!

Would Christians wish to deny their children the eternal life promised by their God? Do they view gargoyles as mere animals, such as dogs? I doubt it; aren't Tom and Princess Katharine willing to fight and die to protect them??? Would they do so for a mere pet?

Orlando, FL
Tuesday, August 26, 2003 10:16:49 PM

Greg> "Um, Greg Weisman never said that the Manhattan Clan worships the Judeo Christian god. I don't know where you ever got that impression. Gargoyles have their own religion, which he has talked about. It's in the FAQ."

You misread the comment.

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, August 26, 2003 08:07:00 PM

Ah, thanks. Sorry about that, Bishansky.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, August 26, 2003 06:59:41 PM

TODD> Actually, it's spelled Ra's al Ghul
Greg B
Tuesday, August 26, 2003 06:48:48 PM

I think that the question over whether gargoyles need to be converted to Christianity to be saved or not depends really on the theological question (a moot one in the real world, for obvious reasons) over what the salvation plan is for non-human sentients. In traditional Christian theology, Jesus's sacrifice on the Cross was to undo the original sin of Adam and Eve which infected all humanity; however, gargoyles aren't humans so that raises the question as to whether the Crucifixion would have made any impact on them. (Since Greg Weisman's Jewish, the issue probably didn't occur to him.)

Watched my tape of "Avalon Part Two" today. The Archmage is a lot of fun here - I LOL at the part where the enhanced Archmage says to the Weird Sisters in 1020, "I'll see you in 975 years", the original Archmage says to him "975 years?", and the enhanced Archmage promptly glowers at him.

Hearing David Warner in action, I can see why Greg decided to bring the Archmage back; Warner does a great job in voicing him. (I find myself recalling that episode of "Batman Beyond" where Talia showed up and turned out to have been mentally taken over by Reis el-Ghul; although her speaking in his voice was physically impossible, I didn't mind because of Warner's delivery.)

At the same time, the original Archmage really doesn't come across as too bright; it takes him forever (almost) to understand what's going on here (he keeps on asking foolish questions until his future self's about ready to climb the wall), and to make matters worse (this is one of my favorite bits here), he hadn't even decided what he was going to do with the Grimorum, the Eye, and the Gate when he got them! (It's almost like Jafar getting his hands on Aladdin's lamp, summoning the Genie, and when the Genie asks him what his three wishes are, saying "I - don't know.") And his future self has to actually nudge him into Taking Over the World, even though that's such an obvious goal for a super-villain (especially a cliched one like the Archmage).

The scene where the Archmage eats the Grimorum is one that particularly lingered with me; I was actually shocked the first time that I saw that scene. The Grimorum had been around since the start of the series, even if usually in the background, and now, all of a sudden, it's gone. (Complete with a little gulp after he eats it.)

One minor bit that interests me: a lot of Gargoyles fans picked up on Gabriel's appearance indicating that he was the biologically offspring of Othello and Desdemona, even before Greg Weisman confirmed it. But I will confess that the idea never even occurred to me before I started reading those speculations. (On the other hand, I suspected correctly from the start who the Sleeping King was - but then I'm an Arthurian nut, as everyone here knows, so that was only to be expected from me. :) ).

One bit that I still find interesting is that the enhanced Archmage is talking about the modern-day world being one of science rather than magic, even though all that he'd seen of it was Avalon (with Demona and Macbeth making use of high-tech weaponry, admittedly); I wondered how he'd found that out. At the Gathering 2001, I read the original script for "Avalon Part Two" before it was shortened to run a half-hour (it was up for auction and I got a peek at it before the auction got started), and in it, the two Archmages briefly show up in New York during the "City of Stone" period to give their instructions to the Weird Sisters about keeping Demona and Macbeth from killing each other (both of them dressing temporarily in modern-day clothing while there), but of course it's not in the actually televised version. It's possible that the Archmage gained the information from eating the Grimorum - but I like to believe that the real reason for it is that it was all part of the time loop, that the Archmage says that the world is now a place of science not because he knows it to be true, but because he's heard himself say it. It's more fun that way. :)

And, of course, we get the introduction of Angela, Gabriel, and Boudicca. (The first two's names show beautifully how Princess Katharine and the Magus's attitudes towards gargoyles have changed; on the other hand, I can't help wondering what they were thinking of when they chose "Boudicca" for the gargoyle beast's name. The original Boudicca was a ruthless and vengeful warrior-queen in 1st century Britain who, to avenge the wrongs that the Romans had done her and her daughters, sacked three entire cities - including London, slaughtering everyone whom she could find in them - practically a real-life Demona! (She even had red hair.) As Greg once said, probably all that the Princess and the Magus knew about Boudicca was that she was a famous warrior-queen.)

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, August 26, 2003 06:44:38 PM

JJT> Um, Greg Weisman never said that the Manhattan Clan worships the Judeo Christian god. I don't know where you ever got that impression. Gargoyles have their own religion, which he has talked about. It's in the FAQ.
Greg Bishansky
Tuesday, August 26, 2003 04:50:52 PM

I have recently discovered the Ask Greg site and this comment room (although I had been lurking on the TGS comment room for a while).

I have been pondering many thoughts from the Ask Greg site. For example, I note that Greg Wiseman explains that none of the Manhattan clan (currently) worships the Judeo-Christian God. (*currently*???)

However, I also note that Princess Katherine and Tom are almost certainly Christian, and that they raised the "eggs" their own children. I find it very puzzling that they would not teach their adopted children about Christ. In their Christian minds, wouldn't that be condemning the "eggs" to damnation? Or did they think salvation by Christ was irrelevant to gargoyles? I recall that there is a suggestion that there is no afterlife for them: one of the gargoyles who made up Coldstone remarked that he expected oblivion when he died (There's a lot of wiggle room in that comment, of course!).

Or, are Angela and her rookery brethren from Avalon Christians, and I just misinterpreted Wiseman?

Any thoughts?


Orlando, FL
Tuesday, August 26, 2003 04:13:31 PM

Looks like Steve should have stayed with crocodiles....
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, August 26, 2003 07:35:05 AM

Can't say I've ever read one with a plot like that, but crikey... if it actually exists, it sounds like it'd be a challenger for the title of "crossover fic from hell." :P

"Lookit that one! Ain't she a beaut! See those glowin' red eyes, mate? That's means she's a-gee-tated. Let's see what 'appens when I poke 'er with this stick..." -- Last words of Steve Irwin as recorded in the "Gargoyles" universe

Tuesday, August 26, 2003 07:07:17 AM

A guy emailed looking for an old piece of Gargoyles fan fiction. I don't recognize it, I was hoping one you guys did and had a copy of it.

"It's a Star Trek Next Generation/Gargoyles crossover. In which a gargoyle was also "assimilated" during the "Best of Both Worlds" along with Picard & was also rescued & rehabilitated. Later, this garg was headed back to earth when he passed through an unstable temporal wormhole--or something like it--to end up in 90' Earth. He emergency beamed out after setting the shuttle he was in to self-desctruct. While on the ground (in the Norhter US), he ran into a local gargoyle & togetehr, they made their way to San Fran.
At the same time the Illuminati hired an AUssie Garg-Hunter to go after them."

James Anatidae AKA Jonathan Parshall - [parshall@citcom.net]
Brevard, NC, USA
Tuesday, August 26, 2003 12:02:07 AM

Greg's gone back to answering five questions a day at "Ask Greg" rather than two (as it was until recently); that certainly bodes well for us.

Watched my tape of "Avalon Part One" today. I remember being genuinely surprised that the eggs had survived; as I've mentioned before, I'd always assumed before that episode came out that they were long gone thanks to the thousand year gap. I hadn't taken into account the possibility that there were places in the Gargoyles Universe where time flowed at a slower rate.

I still would like to know what the book was that Goliath stayed home to read. (Given that his reading tastes include Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky, probably something "classy".) I asked Greg about it once, but he'd forgotten.

The scene where Bronx is whining sadly and feeling left out is kind of funny and cute at the same time.

I suddenly realizing that the yuppie couple appeared in all the multi-parters. In "Awakening" they get introduced when Goliath and Elisa rescue them from the three street thugs. In "City of Stone", the gargoyles rescue them from the terrorists. In "Avalon", they're among the New Yorkers who are staring at Tom in his gargoyle armor with a mixture of bewilderment and amusement. In "The Gathering", we get a shot of them asleep at the wheel (literally) when Oberon puts his spell of sleep on the city. And in "Hunter's Moon", they're among the passengers on the train at the beginning (complete with Margot giving Brendan another tongue-lashing).

I really enjoyed the flashback scene, of course, including the little tidbits such as Constantine setting his wedding day to Michaelmas. One thing that I noticed this time around is that Maol Chalvim (Kenneth's son and the future grandfather of Duncan and Macbeth) is a better judge of character than either his father or Duncan. Maol correctly recognizes Constantine as plotting treason, which Kenneth fails to see. On the other hand, the person whom Maol suspects really is guilty, in contrast to Duncan, who suspected both Findlaech and Macbeth of plotting against him when they weren't.

I wonder how many people, when they were seeing this episode the first time, realized that Kenneth and Constantine were real historical figures (I discovered it quickly when I checked a family tree of medieval Scottish kings that I had, which went all the way back to the 9th century). After seeing this episode, I eagerly did all the research possible on Kenneth and Constantine, although I wasn't able to find out much (10th century Scottish history isn't very well-documented).

Another moment that I really like: Mary saying to Finella as they prepare to head back to the outside world with the Grimorum "Two [women] can cause plenty of [trouble]." Much of it is how she says it.

(As a side-note, I found it interesting that Greg Weisman and Christine Morgan both came up, independently, with the notion that Mary and Finella got transported forward in time with the Grimorum to the United States in the 1970's or thereabouts, though by different routes - Greg using Brooklyn and the Phoenix Gate and Christine using the magic of Avalon that "sends you where you need to be". I wonder if that's another example of the Gargoyles Fan Collective Sub-Conscious.)

Another neat bit: after Constantine announces his intent to marry Princess Katharine, we see the indignant responses from both the Magus (who has to be held back by Mary and Tom) and Finella.

And I wonder what the response was from the first-time viewers about the Archmage being the one threatening the eggs, given that, at the time, we'd all thought that he'd genuinely died in 984. (I know that I was surprised, but can't remember the details.)

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, August 25, 2003 07:20:13 PM

Howdy folks.

Finished the redo of Awakening pts 1-3 dvd. This time, I added chapter points and a few special features. The only features I could think of were the "Next Time on Gargoyles..." and the "Previously on Gargoyles..." segments for the three episodes. I have commercials and a production featurette that I can use, but, if I don't do the Goliath Chronicles, the last dvd will only have 2 episodes on it. Gonna need something to fill up that extra space (or either stick them on a dvd-rw).

Video quality was about the same. I think I had the same settings. Can't remember what I did the other one in. The main thing was chapter points. I didn't think I'd need them, but after watching a little bit and having to stop to do something else, I didn't like having to fast forward back to where I was. Plus, now, each episode has its own menu with its own tunes. I ran out of music for Part 3, so I just captured the "Next time" audio for part 3 and used that for the menu track. Worked out pretty good too.

DPH> Did those discs work for you? I went back and re-checked the files and they worked on this end. Let me know if I can help.

Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
Monday, August 25, 2003 07:18:18 PM

Monday, August 25, 2003 01:30:59 PM

I'll take nine. *picks it up and runs away* bwhahahahaaaa!
Monday, August 25, 2003 01:12:19 PM

What the hey


Monday, August 25, 2003 12:53:45 PM


...ways to live my life or seven ways to die...

The Coma-man
Berlin, Germany
Monday, August 25, 2003 09:34:53 AM


Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
Monday, August 25, 2003 08:40:12 AM

Monday, August 25, 2003 08:29:54 AM

Fourth! :: flag ::
Monday, August 25, 2003 07:13:31 AM

Demona Taina
Monday, August 25, 2003 03:50:11 AM

guess makes me second. Woos! ^_^
Monday, August 25, 2003 12:18:50 AM

Am I first? Wow.
Monday, August 25, 2003 12:16:53 AM