Comments for the week ending September 15, 2003

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i usually have to go to work on Sunday nights so i don't often get a chance at being first when the room clears...
but i'm on vacation this week and you better watch out! :)

i might get first, assuming i don't get distracted or fall asleep, lol!
matt
Sunday, September 14, 2003 11:45:27 PM
IP: 216.178.8.49

CKayote> It is rather interesting to meet a fellow Golden Knight on the Internet, where we meet people from all over the world.
JJ "Gregarius" (T) - [Nahnah@nana.nah:P!]
Orlando, FL
Sunday, September 14, 2003 09:08:54 PM
IP: 65.244.173.75

BattleBeast- It was France, maybe they do that all the time. Or maybe Elisa went off a bought a French boat permit.

JJ Greg- The point about can't be a hero without a problem was what I was getting at. I just meant people would see Brooklyn show up, and then say "There's Brooklyn. That means there's going to be a problem with something."

I didn't mean to ignore Brooklyn's more positive attributes, but particularly during the early dances, he would not like being controlled, even by a randomness or destiny. He's spent the entire run angry at Demona for "Temptation", and Demona was someone physical he could be angry at. Destiny and the gate would give him no one to express his anger at/to and it would eat him up inside.

By the way, I'm in Orlando too. At UCF.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Sunday, September 14, 2003 01:03:44 PM
IP: 132.170.40.135

I'm back, finally! Got a working laptop again (and internet access!) and just wanted to drop a note and say heyo to you all! Hope you all have a splendid day!

Cheers!
Cassie
Sunday, September 14, 2003 09:44:02 AM
IP: 172.165.105.28

JJ> "Too bad that it has always been such a slow process. People just can't accept things that quickly."
you've got that right. with us silly humans it sometimes is SO slow that one person can't accept it entirely, and it takes generations for acceptence to build. look at the civil rights movement! or better yet, the gay rights movement. most my siblings and cousins are totally cool with it, my mom and her siblings have a harder time with it and my grandparents thinks its evil etc. i think every generation gets a little closer, and i think it'll be this way for Gargoyle acceptance as well.

Goliath> yes, good point, his moral strength is impressive, but it doen't change my point. i still think Goliath is a good leader, but i think Brook has potential to be way better.
matt
Sunday, September 14, 2003 04:10:12 AM
IP: 207.230.48.47

Oh, Matt, don't underestimate Goliath's *moral* strength, for IMHO it is that strength that makes him a leader.
JJ "Gregarius" (T) - [Nahnah@nana.nah:P!]
Orlando, FL
Sunday, September 14, 2003 02:37:01 AM
IP: 65.244.173.75

Matt>You can tell I'm fond of Brooklyn, no :P.
Anyhow....
GREG WEISMAN SEZ: (notes about G 2198)
"BROOKLYN - .... But he has no intention of abandoning Samson or Earth in their time of need. Someday, however, he may have to make a choice."

That's what I'm talking about.

Another thing I thought of after the last post: if Brooklyn *knows*, then it wouldn't be ultimate heroism, It is only that grand if Brook has to take a leap of faith....* Anyway, I think the drama will be more in Brooklyn's fears of leaving the Resistance while it has great need. While the Phoenix Gate subjects him to the force of Destiny, he still has free will. This means the ability to screw up royally, like leaving before the Resistance needs him the most.

As for being a great leader, unless Weisman and his (future) coworkers decide to pull a _Quantum_Leap_ here and have Brooklyn's memory become "swiss cheese" (i.e. Brooklyn forgets significant portions of his Dance), he will have become a sort of prophet when he returns, for he will *know* that humans can slowly learn to accept his kind. Indeed, Brooklyn has always seemed interested in our species. Perhaps his true destiny is to start** building a true friendship between humans and gargoyles. Too bad its such a *slow* process.

Too bad that it has always been such a slow process. People just can't accept things that quickly. :-(


*This time, I didn't intentionally mean to make a _Tron_ reference! You must understand, I saw _Tron_ when I was a wee impressionable kid, and that movie has influenced my thought patterns ever since.

** Actually, Goliath starts things. I'm just suggesting that Brooklyn may have a major hand in this.
JJ "Gregarius" (T) - [Nahnah@nana.nah:P!]
Orlando, FL
Sunday, September 14, 2003 02:34:15 AM
IP: 65.244.173.75

Brooklyn> i agree with your statements generally JJ "Gregarius" (T).
i think Goliath is a great Leader for the Clan, but i think alot of his strength comes from his, well, strength. Could Goliath lead as well without his strength? i don't know, but often he seems more of a "best warrior" than "best leader". don't get me wrong, i do think hes a good leader!
Brook on the other hand has shown his leadership skills to be in many ways more impressive than Goliath. i think Goliath is a better leader during the series, but when Brook returns how from the Timedance? i think Brook will be one of the greatest Clan leaders ever by that point.

i hadn't considered whether Brook would consider staying in 2198 with Samson and all them. its interesting to think he'd be tempted. hes certaintly adjusted to a weird future before... but still, home is home. when Gabriel asked Goliath to bring his Clan to Avalon and stay there, i think Goliath may have been tempted also, but home is home, and i think Goliath made the right and more honest choice. i think brooklyn would too. Brook would be tempted but he'd want to go home more.
matt
Sunday, September 14, 2003 01:10:37 AM
IP: 207.230.48.47

(Still looking for a color I feel comfortable with. Please bear with me.)
More thoughts re: Brooklyn/the TimeDancer and G 2198
CKayote> Considering race relations and the idea some Dances may not go as well as may be hoped, indeed, I can see some dreading the TimeDancer. Yet, I can see others who hear stories of how the TimeDancer showed up when things looked bleak, as if he were some sort of guardian angel. These folk, *should* they learn that Brooklyn is the TimeDancer, may cheer. They may even place unreasonable expectations on poor Brooklyn. (Legends can backfire!) Of course, very few may know of the TimeDancer, and fewer may be able to connect Brooklyn's face to that of the legend.

Also, I agree that Brooklyn can be very sulky and pessimistic. There are other attributes to his personality, though. He can be very level-headed and analytical: witness his attempts to calm Goliath down during the attack on the airship in Hunter's Moon) At other times, he can be ingenious (Upgrade, Kingdom, etc.). Heck, should Brooklyn see a ray of hope, a path that could help the beleaguered world he finds himself in, he can become intensely focused, despite (or because of ) whatever pain the world slings at him.

(Aside: I think one of the reasons Brooklyn is popular is that he is smarter than he realizes. As an audience, we cheer him on to be the clever hero we know he can be.)

As for "destiny," I think that depends on whether Brooklyn has detected any pattern to the Dance yet. Remember, nothing happens in the Gargoyles universe at random. It would also help if Brooklyn has observed any "constructive" time loops, such as the ones Goliath may have told him concerning the Archmage and Griff. Certain conclusions seem inevitable from these.

As for any deeper heroism, that depends on whether Brooklyn has learned that he returns to Manhattan. Notice that Weisman suggests that Brooklyn will have to choose whether to stay with Samson and company. Now, the obvious question is: how can he choose?

Think about it. Kevin Flynn's actions from the climax of _Tron_ seem mighty applicable here, if Brooklyn knows something...
JJ "Gregarius" (T) - [Nahnah@nana.nah:P!]
Orlando, FL
Sunday, September 14, 2003 12:30:56 AM
IP: 65.244.173.75

Hey.

"This is a job..."> I hated that line too. I sounded waaay to cartoony.

Golem> I never liked this episode; although I now see the paralelle between Xanatos and Reynard, each, in his own way, trying to obtain immortality. I like the character of Reynard, though, but this episode disturbed me at first. Not so much now.

Sanctuary> I was impressed with the way Demona and MacBeth were dupped by Thailog. I also like the way Demona wouldn't leave him even though he HAD swindled her.

Demona learning of Angela and Angela learning the truth. It had to happen sometime. Loved the Paris setting; gothic cathedrals, the perfect setting for a clan of Gargoyles.

Thailog is ever-scheeming. Don't you just love how whicked he actually is?

BTW> Don't you think SOMEONE would find three statues on a boat under a bridge? I don't think they were THAT WELL hidden.


Later~
Battle Beast
CanadaSaturday, September 13, 2003 02:48:23 PM
IP: 142.59.111.33

CKayote >>I personally see the people of the future as regarding Brooklyn as a harbinger of ill omen. The kind that shows up when something big (or bad) happens

Post hoc ergo propter hoc?

Anywayhow does one go about being a hero if there's no problematic situation out there to be helped by a hero?
JJ "Gregarius" (T) - [nahnah@nana.nah!]
Orlando, FL
Saturday, September 13, 2003 03:23:32 AM
IP: 65.244.173.75

Regarding Samson's age; Everyone seems to assume that they're is someone older and/or more experienced TO BE the leader of the resistance. Maybe the gargoyle leaders that aren't abducted are as spineless (or under the control of the illumanati) as their human counterparts.
And personally, I see the resistance as being a decentralized, cell-based entity. Samson would be running NYC cell #3 or something like that.

And regarding JJ Greg's comments on Brooklyn; Timedancer won't be very interesting if Brooklyn didn't end up at important points in history, and then somehow be invovled. And assuming that Brooklyn's life story is known in the future, I personally see the people of the future as regarding Brooklyn as a harbinger of ill omen. The kind that shows up when something big (or bad) happens, and then mysteriously disappears, leaving others to clean (and then blaim him) the mess. Brooklyn might not be a welcomed part of the resistance.
And no matter what he thinks of his "destiny", I see Brooklyn as being very angry that a magic piece of metal is controlling his life. He'd be giving some very pessimistic advice ("Um, is that going to do anything? or just make the Space Spawn blow up the Earth?").

The name of the "Space Spawn": The name the SS use for themselves is probably something you or I couldn't pronouce, so
(1)they use the word already given to them, Nokkar's english translation of his people's phrase for them.
(2)the real meaning or such is lost in the translation.
(3)the SS take pride in taking a name meant as an insult and making it their own. This has historic precedent (on Earth), the term 'yankee' was a derogatory British slang for Americans during the Revoultionary War. 230 years later, 'yankee' is widely used by Americans in a positive way.
(4)Nokkar was using the name the SS gave themselves, rather than a name Nokkar's race gave them.

The planetbuster: it was never said that a planetbuster HAD to be at Earth to blow the Earth up.

Just my excessively wordy thoughts.
CKayote@worldnet.at.net
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Saturday, September 13, 2003 12:11:13 AM
IP: 132.170.43.231

Watched my tape of "Sanctuary" this afternoon. A lot of fun things there, including Thailog being definitely Thailog, outscheming Demona and Macbeth, making remarks like "You and what clan?", even leering at Angela (which I still find a very disturbing moment - though pretty typical for him).

Not to mention that we have Angela finding out that Demona is her biological mother and feeling unsettled over it.

(I still cringe a little at Elisa's line "This is a job for the gargoyles", though.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, September 12, 2003 07:13:32 PM
IP: 171.75.244.199

Greetings all...

First, I'm not dead (someone sent me an email asking where the heck I've been lately), just been struggling with work and other r/l concerns.

Second, My grandfather finally got to come home from the hospital this week, follwoing his gall bladder surgery (and the requisite buggling the nursing staff did over his medication). Actually he's been in a half-way house receiving follow-up care, but the troubles didn't end there for us: someone, either a staffer or a patient, STOLE a pair of my grandfather's pajamas and his hearing aid! (snarls!) Well, we got the pajamas back, but the hearing aid never showed up, so the PR manager has assured my mother they will buy him a new one... wonderful state the modern medical system is, eh?

Oh, wanted to send out thanks to everyone that has read and made comments on the first new issue of Avalon Mists. Was a bit longer than expected, but my staff and I are pleased to see the results have been well recieved by the fans.

Of course, we can't make this work without you... so if you have fanfics, art, poetry, or know of an article that you've written that will make for good reading, SUBMIT to us! We're looking for good stuff to share with the fans, and the deadline for subs is October 15th! Send them now!

Also, something of a personal note, I recently received word from the con-staff of NEcronomiCon 2003... I've been slated to do a reading of my novella "Sin City Walker" at this year's convention! YEAH! Something that can get my original writing seen! Will have more details to come before too long. ^_^

Well, that's all from me for now... Maintain and Check Six!

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr. - [ssobotka33616_AT_yahoo.com]
Tampa, FL, USA
Friday, September 12, 2003 06:11:22 PM
IP: 24.164.29.133

I'm looking for an old XOVER (not on GFW--or at least not anymore) where a Gargoyle was a member of STARFLEET & was assimilated along with PICARD in THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS. ALso rescued & returned to normal, he later found himself sent back to the late 20th century--
Please, I have been looking for this tory for years!.
weregargoyle - [weregargoyle@yahoo.com]
Austin, TX, USA
Friday, September 12, 2003 01:14:32 AM
IP: 152.163.252.196

"But the episode isn't talking about the evils of guns but the consequences of someone who's immature and/or mishandles it. But people seem to just jump at the first seemingly negative comment without first reading what the whole arguement/episode/etc. . The NRA of all people should know it's people, not guns, that kill people. I swear, stupid first impression syndrome will cause people to misinterpret everything and make up their own side before they look at all sides of the story. Sorry abot the mini-rant, but I have a hard time respecting people who don't attempt to be open-minded (at the comment,not at Jimmy) and I feel the same way towards Disney, for taking coward's way out through editing all the Gargoyles's episodes and removing Deadly Force. They can't show the truth, that stupid actions can have serious consequences. Like a form of censorship."

-I know the comment was not directed at me, but I feel compelled to comment anyway. I was not talking about the evils of guns. I just think that any weapon that has the power to kill needs to be treated with some respect. Many of the NRA folks I have met don't seem to understand that. They treat their guns like they were toys. Twirling them around their fingers while loaded, aiming out the shop window, etc. The point of Deadly Force was to show that guns are NOT toys. They are weapons designed for a single purpose and people should not be playing around with them. It's something gun nuts and gun control nuts both fail to understand.


Jimmy
Thursday, September 11, 2003 11:53:50 PM
IP: 24.136.49.236

Hoo-ha!!! I'm FINALLY back online. Don't know what happened to my modem on my main comp, but, I needed to setup the internet on my laptop anyway.

Toon Disney> I've gotten most of the episodes from here, but still need a few. While I did not see Deadly Force, I did see a "Previously on Gargoyles.." right before my copy of Enter Macbeth. As far as I know, no season 1 episode (except the Awakening episodes) had a Previously segment. It sumed up Deadly Force....maybe another episode too...can't remember exactly.

DVD> I'll still buy one (or 2, or 3) when it is released, but I'm still not too excited about it. Haven't seen any pics or any spec listings. As far as my own dvds go, I finished the redo on the first 2 dvds (first 6 episodes). I added chapter points, and a few special features. I'm very happy with them right now. As i type this, my main comp is encoding Temptation for the 3rd dvd.

*sigh* just glad to be back online. Now I gotta configure my email filters. Had 875 email messages!! Ack!! Stop the junk mail!!! :)
Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Thursday, September 11, 2003 09:35:24 PM
IP: 66.220.76.173

Watched my tape of "Golem" today. One of the particularly important elements about it is that this is where Goliath discovers that the Avalon World Tour is something that is supposed to happen, and accepts it. And I'm glad that he did it, too.

Good return appearance from Renard and Vogel, and the introduction of Tomas Brod as well as the Golem and Max. (I still find a little startling Greg's mention of Brod as almost the Prague-equivalent of Xanatos, complete with the scene where Max stops the Golem from killing Brod being a parallel to Elisa stopping Goliath from killing Xanatos at the end of "Awakening". I honestly had not seen that parallel before. One reason why I like those rambles of his so much; it's a pity that, so far, he's only been able to do one more after this one.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, September 11, 2003 07:19:09 PM
IP: 171.75.194.35

Then how do they explain Elisa on crutches in "Enter MacBeth" (the next episode)?
But I'll answer my own question, they don't, and the people who are watching Gragoyles on ToonDisney for the first time are just left wondering.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Thursday, September 11, 2003 06:29:12 PM
IP: 132.170.47.251

"The NRA of all people should know it's people, not guns, that kill people." Vash

Well, unless you are a transformer fan. Then it's "Guns don't kill people, I do." Megatron :)

Sereously though, I thought based on what I read and what I think I remember of the ep, that this was well done, and very seriously showed the ills of mishandeling of weaponry. When you consider that Elisa had no children, and for that matter, knew no one with children that we saw, and had no room mate, her mistake was understandable. I also noticed she learned from it, and in Silver Falcon, took the gun out of the lock box while Broadway was watching detective shows/movies. I assume Disney may have been advised by a lawyer or two...after all, we live in an age of unaccountabillity. Too bad more people do not watch cartoons and shows like Gargoyles and put the info in them to use, I think they covered accountabillity for ones own actions more than once. What an excellent show it is/was.
Sahyinepu
Thursday, September 11, 2003 12:20:36 PM
IP: 64.221.11.59

Hmm... trying a different colour - hopefully more readable this time.
Deadly Force> Well, they've only just started showing gargoyles on toon disney again, and started in season 2 for some reason, but they always showed deadly force over here before- uncut as far as i could tell (i'll have to go back & watch my taped ep). whether they still will remains to be seen. But especially since the Dunblane tragedy, gun control is probably more highly promoted in the uk - Scotland in particular - so there's no reason why they wouldn't continue to do so.


Sheltie
Shetland, UK
Thursday, September 11, 2003 05:55:21 AM
IP: 213.122.123.93

Si> It's Harvest, not Hunter's Moon, tonight. But the moon was indeed big and orange and very cool looking. =D

Demona Taina> Hm, maybe you're right. It's been a while; I just assume that Disney butchers everything. =P
Vash
Thursday, September 11, 2003 01:29:07 AM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Jimmy:"That and the fact that the NRA throws a hiss-fit if anybody dares to talk about the negative aspects of guns."

But the episode isn't talking about the evils of guns but the consequences of someone who's immature and/or mishandles it. But people seem to just jump at the first seemingly negative comment without first reading what the whole arguement/episode/etc. . The NRA of all people should know it's people, not guns, that kill people. I swear, stupid first impression syndrome will cause people to misinterpret everything and make up their own side before they look at all sides of the story. Sorry abot the mini-rant, but I have a hard time respecting people who don't attempt to be open-minded (at the comment,not at Jimmy) and I feel the same way towards Disney, for taking coward's way out through editing all the Gargoyles's episodes and removing Deadly Force. They can't show the truth, that stupid actions can have serious consequences. Like a form of censorship.

If anyone in here is part of the NRA, I was making a generalization towars aanyone who doesn't try to be open-minded. If you took offense, I apologize. Not my intent to insult someone...

Saiinhepu:
No problem with switching my name with the city. I just hope I spelled you're name right...
Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Thursday, September 11, 2003 12:50:13 AM
IP: 24.195.10.147

Todd <<
I don't think that Greg meant by "Samson being the leader of the Resistance" that he was the leader of every single resister on the planet, but only the ones who made up the "regulars team".
>>
1) The first time I saw this, I read "leader of every single resistor." Gah!
2) That would make more sense. Given Weisman's other comments, I think Samson rises to power during the conflict. I can see this.

<<
(And I suspect that the bulk of the low-level leaders were the stereotypical "cowardly politicians with no backbones" - and that those who weren't were outvoted.)
>>
Before I started thinking about the MMC, I was going to comment on this. Considering the chicken-s--- nature of politicians, I agree. I just thought that the invasion would inspire some renegade leaders, as such events have in the past.

<<
I think that you really should submit your question to "Ask Greg", though he wouldn't be able to answer it for a long time, unfortunately.
>>
Ummmm...*which* question?

You see, I am *not* trying to be a hard-a--.
JJ "Gregarius" (T)
Orlando, FL
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 10:14:59 PM
IP: 65.244.173.75

Happy Hunter's Moon Everyone!

And now, a hunter's moon article by Vashkoda for this month's Avmists!
Siryn - [<--Hunter's Moon]
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 09:18:33 PM
IP: 24.213.130.186

Vashkoda>> "Toon Disney only aired "Deadly Force" once--during their last Halloween marathon (highly edited of course)."

Actually, the only edit I could see was the removal of the scene of Elisa lying down on the floor in a small pool of her own blood. The rest of the episode was uncut except for the Gargoyles Halloween Marathon logo coming up when Broadway looked at his bloodied hands, but I'm pretty sure that was coincidental. Oh, and they aired the episode not after "Temptation," but a few episodes later, probably to keep it firmly on prime time. I guess airing that episode still made them nervous, but at least they made an effort to show something new on Toon Disney, don't you agree? And the commercials were very well done, too. Let's hope they finally get over their unfounded fears and air it again!
Demona Taina
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 09:06:35 PM
IP: 196.42.28.191

Thanks to Jimmy and Vash for your replies. And sorry Rac for getting your name wrong..for some reason I saw Troy and thought that was your name. :)
Sahyinepu
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 06:29:14 PM
IP: 64.221.12.29

Jimmy> You mentioned things I didn't go into detail on, so s'all good. ;)
Vash
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 05:59:31 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Ahh Vash ya beat me to it. Oh well.
Jimmy
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 05:51:46 PM
IP: 24.136.49.236

Yes, Toon Disney does not air Deadly Force for S&P reasons. Apparently kids these days are not mature enough to deal with the consequences of gun-use. That and the fact that the NRA throws a hiss-fit if anybody dares to talk about the negative aspects of guns. It doesn't make us happy, but it's true.

I don't know about editing the DVD, you'll have to ask Vash or Greg Weisman himself about that. Although I'm not positive Greg would know either and by the time the question was answered the DVD would have probably come out already.


Jimmy
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 05:51:03 PM
IP: 24.136.49.236

Sahyinepu> Toon Disney only aired "Deadly Force" once--during their last Halloween marathon (highly edited of course). I doubt it'll air again on its regular schedule (during the next marathon...maybe). Avalon Archives has a copy in WMV format (click my name to get there). As for Toon Disney edits, Airwalker posted a list on the alt.fans newsgroup. E-mail me if you'd like me to send you a copy. Finally, as to whether the epsiode will be on the DVD, the episode *was* released in their series 1 VHS collection, so I don't see why not.
Vash - [vashkoda@glaringdream.org]
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 05:45:03 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Thanks Troy. I looked through the arcives and didn't see what I was curious about. I posted it down earlier today..but perhaps it was overlooked. I was curious of anyone knew if ToonDisney had cancelled the airing of Deadly Force? It has not aired on several occasions when it should have. Does anyone know where I can find info on such things, as editings of shows and the such as well, assuming such edditings have taken place? And lastly, assuming the first season of Gragoyles will be released on DVD will Deadly Force be released as well, and other eps not be edited for violence/politically correctness?
Sahyinepu
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 05:26:11 PM
IP: 64.221.8.76

If you mean info on all aspects of Gargoyles, go to the Ask Greg link and look through Ask Greg answers archive (should be an enormous database with just about everything on the show)and/or the FAQ link, which is a bit more organized if you're looking for a specific answer.

If neither of them are it, you can always ask someone on the comment room. Nothing wrong with an honest question.
Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 04:50:57 PM
IP: 128.113.168.57

umm.. Perhaps this is not the place for general questions....could someone point me to where that place is? Be kind, I have a Mac, and have updated to OS X...hehe
Sahyinepu
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 04:40:07 PM
IP: 64.221.8.76

JJ: I have only one thing to say... "Oh, ye of little faith."
Greg Weisman
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 02:15:08 PM
IP: 66.81.105.173

JJ "Gregarius" - <<Anyway, would it behoove the Space Spawn to send such a strategically relevant weapon to little, unimportant Earth without serious provocation?>> IIRC Earth, or at least its solar system, is considered a strategically important post by the warring races. I figure the situation is somewhat akin to Belgium in WW1. Normally Belgium wasn't a very important country on the world stage, but Germany invaded it to use as a short cut to attack its neighbor France and Britain got into the war to defend it because Belgium would have provided Germany with ports in close proximity to England. Little unimportant places can become vital peices of real estate if they're close to one of your enemies.
Graymonk
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 11:40:21 AM
IP: 198.164.140.141

RAC > Wouldn't it be wise to have some back-generators or some sort of auxiliary means of producing energy?

May I point out the recent power failure in the Eastern US and Canada. We mere humans often don't act on backups until something rubs our noses in it. Which reminds me. I need to back up my computer. GAH! Last backup 8/15.

Back to lurk

Old Kathy
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 11:02:25 AM
IP: 198.31.97.254

Todd, given the current trend towards decentralized, distributed systems, I totally misinterpreted the role of the Master Matrix. It could see it controlling the weather (at least in Antarctica) and such, but I couldn't see the whole world depending on one computer system. Even today, we have redundant systems in case of disasters.

The more this conversation wears on, the more it seems to me that Greg Weisman came up with some clever, but *unnecessary* plot trickery. The fact that the Space Spawn have descended upon the planet is threat enough. Excess plot trickery is a Bad Thing.

I just hope that Weisman will play surgeon on his story, and release the classic waiting beneath all this useless trickery. Given the quality of _Gargoyles_, I know he can do it!
JJ "Gregarius" (T)
Orlando, FL
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 01:45:23 AM
IP: 65.244.173.75

Does anyone know if Deadly Force was cancelled by toondisney? It does not air when it should...
Sahyinepu
Wednesday, September 10, 2003 12:58:25 AM
IP: 64.221.11.165

Does anyone know if their is a SITE that I can download the episodes from? I was using Kazaa, but downloads take forever, assuming I can get one.

Thanks!
CKayote@worldnet.att.net
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Tuesday, September 9, 2003 11:25:55 PM
IP: 132.170.47.251

Been lurking again,didn't completely disappear...

It makes you wonder about their lack of foresight. Granted, the earth didn't expect to be invaded by a superior alien force but their consolidated all their enery power in the Master Matrix. Wouldn't it be wise to have some back-up generators or some sort of auxilary means of producing energy? Seems like the Space-Spawn scouted the earth so that when they arrived, all the leaders were in one place and the world's sole power source in another area.
Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Tuesday, September 9, 2003 11:25:34 PM
IP: 24.195.10.147

I don't think that Greg meant by "Samson being the leader of the Resistance" that he was the leader of every single resister on the planet, but only the ones who made up the "regulars team".

One other factor that nobody's brought up yet was that the Space-Spawn not only kidnapped all of Earth's leaders, but also the Master Matrix Computer which controlled everything on the planet. With it gone, the Earth would be powerless to do anything but submit since the theft of the Master Matrix would mean no ability to make use of technological defences.

(And I suspect that the bulk of the low-level leaders were the stereotypical "cowardly politicians with no backbones" - and that those who weren't were outvoted.)

I think that you really should submit your question to "Ask Greg", though he wouldn't be able to answer it for a long time, unfortunately.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, September 9, 2003 07:30:17 PM
IP: 171.75.194.54

Vash >> I can also see cultural differences in the reaction. Some peoples may have more pacifist cultures, while others, such as America, have histories of fighting (American Revolution, the Civil War, etc.).

My response to Weisman's plans stems from a conversation with my father, a former Air Force pilot, over an episode of _Stargate:_SG_1_ in which Earth is compelled to back down to Gou'a'uld demands or face horrible consequences (considering the rest of the series, possibly destruction).

From this conversation, I realized that many would rather go down fighting than submit to utter servitude. At the very least, many Americans would. It would defy American history if no resistance groups arose, If for nothing else, to fight for concessions from the Space Spawn. Brinksmanship.

In view of such a wide-spread resistance, I don't think Samson can be called the "leader."

Yet.

JJ "Gregarius" (T)
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, September 9, 2003 02:12:19 PM
IP: 65.244.173.75

Also, another thought:
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):

Spawn \Spawn\, n. [[root]170. See Spawn, v. t.]

...
2. Any product or offspring; -- used contemptuously.

* * *

I would guess that "Space Spawn" is a derogatory translation of the race's name for themselves. IIRC, Weisman indicated that "Space Spawn" is a term Nokkar's people used for them. Since then, Weisman seems to be leaning toward having the "Space Spawn" refer to themselves by that name, though.

I realize I am becoming somewhat antagonistic. I am actually trying to work through my problems with this concept, so that I may provide constructive criticism. It is a very fine tightrope to walk, I fear. :-(
JJ "Gregarius" (T)
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, September 9, 2003 01:55:37 PM
IP: 65.244.173.75

I think the younger generations are more likely to take action when threatened, whereas the old fogies (is this even a word?) in office are more cautious/pacifistic and willing to "wait and see". And yes, according to Greg, the threat from the planetbuster is quite real. I doubt the Space Spawn are bluffing.
Vash
Tuesday, September 9, 2003 01:47:24 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Does Earth have a *planet destroyer* in orbit? (Not just a powerful warship: think of the difference between the Death Star and the battleships of Empire Strikes Back)

Anyway, would it behoove the Space Spawn to send such a strategically relevant weapon to little, unimportant Earth without serious provocation?
JJ "Gregarius" (T) - [Nahnah@nana.nah]
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, September 9, 2003 01:39:54 PM
IP: 65.244.173.75

Yeah, but Germany and Iraq didn't have a planet destroyer in orbit, and all that other tech.

This is different.
Greg Bishansky
Tuesday, September 9, 2003 01:19:34 PM
IP: 216.179.2.247

NOTE: When I say "lower-level" below, I meant lower than head-of-state.

JJ "Gregarius" (T)
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, September 9, 2003 11:11:54 AM
IP: 65.244.173.75

(Experimenting with new colors. Please bear with me. Thank you. :-) )
From Weisman's description of Gargoyles 2198:
March 21st, 2198. Queen Florence Island. From around the globe, human Heads of State and all Twelve Gargoyle Clan Leaders have come to this small island for the HATCHING. They wait within the caldera of the Island's dormant volcano to witness the new generation of gargoyles bursting out of their shells. Meanwhile, Samson, a young gargoyle warrior is stuck on ceremonial guard duty at the base of the mountain. Out of nowhere, an immense SPACESHIP materializes above the volcano. It emits a blinding beam of light that stabs down into the caldera. Samson races up the slope, but it's too late. The caldera is empty. No eggs. No gargoyles. No humans. No World Leaders!

....

It all happens so fast, there's no time to react. Earth is paralyzed and leaderless when the alien SPACE-SPAWN invades. In less than twenty-four hours, the planet is occupied...

* * *
Apparently, when Mr. Weisman talks about "world leaders," he refers to the Secretary-General of the UN and the various heads of state around the world. However, there are *many* other people in the world's governments. For instance, the U.S. government can handle the sudden loss of the president: we have clear rules about the succession of command*. More importantly, in the post-invasion world there will be lower level leaders that will come into play. Think about history and the world today. Churchill was *not* PM when he opposed the plans to appease Hitler, IIRC Neveille Chamberlain(sp) was. Think about the debates in the British Parliament about what to do about Iraq. Think about the U.S. Congress: would you expect people like Sen. John McCain to back down so easily?

In short, there is fascinating nuances to this scenario. Gargoyles has always indulged in nuance (I still have some trouble understanding the tenth/eleventh century eps!). It bothers me that this nuance disappears in Weisman's new plans. Still, they are not etched in stone yet, which leaves me with great hope. These plans need more consideration to be worthy of the name _Gargoyles_.

* I mean politically, not technologically. To leave the US leaderless, the Space-Spawn would have to eliminate the Pres, Vice-Pres. the Speaker of the House, and the entire Cabinet. (I think I left out a few officials, too.)
JJ "Gregarius" (T) - [Nahnah@nana.nah]
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, September 9, 2003 11:06:56 AM
IP: 65.244.173.75

Todd> You forgot Egypt. ;) On a different note, considering the backup at Ask Greg, have you still been keeping up with the flood of questions? I'm wondering if it might be better to pause a bit in forwarding new ones to Greg, just so that when (if?) a new system to screen questions is in place, we can be rid of a lot of the unnecessary ones appearing lately.

JJ "Greg"> Well considering Brooklyn travels to the future twice, the first time he may not be all that experienced, but the second time around he could have aged close to 40 years. In "FT", in which a similar span of time had passed, Brooklyn seemed an able leader of the resistance.
Vash
Tuesday, September 9, 2003 10:48:22 AM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Gabriel:["Actually, the guy's name in the Kafka story is Samsa."]
::time for another "Goonies" quote::
That's what I said. ;-)

Seriously though, that WAS a typo. :)

Leo
Tuesday, September 9, 2003 08:32:08 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Well, keep in mind that all the world leaders were kidnapped by the Space-Spawn when they first invaded Earth, which would lead to an immediate shortage of statesmen (other than the Illuminati, who turn quisling, and probably a few "conventional politician" types who don't have the courage to fight - the fact that the Space-Spawn have a planet-destroyer and presumably haven't made a secret of it would no doubt encourage many people to caution as well).

On another note, Greg Weisman's back from Scotland, and is answering questions again. One little revelation: the gargoyle clan on New Olympus is descended not only from Greek gargoyles, but from Roman and Persian ones as well. (The Roman part comes as no surprise to me since New Olympus did show signs of Roman influence - such as the Senate-house and Jove.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, September 9, 2003 07:42:29 AM
IP: 171.75.194.45

Vashkoda >>"Still, a 20-year-old leader isn't that big a stretch. Goliath was only 23 when he took command. "

What bothers me is that apparently Samson becomes the leader of the whole resistance, not just the Manhattan Clan and close allies.

This resistance will be fairly large as the entire Earth will not surrender. Due to human nature, there will be many freedom fighters no matter what the UN or any government decrees. That a young gargoyle becomes their leader implies that at that point no rebellious statesmen exist that could be leaders. Does the twenty-second century have no Winston Churchills? Did none of them manage to go underground? Were they all assassinated?

Or does Samson somehow evolve into a states-'goyle as the war wages on?

Vashkoda >> "Besides, Samson still has Demona, Nokkar, Owen and Brooklyn to turn to for advice, and those guys have lived through A LOT."

I notice you mention Brooklyn. Considering that biologically he is only a little older than Samson (if I read Weisman's notes correctly) do you think that his TimeDancing gives him an edge?

I would agree. I suspect that has leaned that there is some force of destiny that controls his dance, and thus the fate of the planet. Such knowledge could bolster the hopes of the resistance. Heck, by this time the TimeDancer may be a legendary hero and prophet, whose reputation has been passed down by the families of those he helped. Just by joining the resistance he would give it credibility.

JJ "Gregarius" (T) - [Nahnah@nana.nah]
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, September 9, 2003 01:37:01 AM
IP: 65.244.173.75

JJ "Greg"> I did like the idea of having a more senior leader in a Gargoyles series, but I guess we already got a glimpse of that with Hudson in "LWtM". Still, a 20-year-old leader isn't that big a stretch. Goliath was only 23 when he took command. Besides, Samson still has Demona, Nokkar, Owen and Brooklyn to turn to for advice, and those guys have lived through A LOT.
Vashkoda
Monday, September 8, 2003 10:26:46 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

(Using white to differentiate the post from Todd's)

Matt: Try searching the "Questions being submitted" section of "Ask Greg" for Punchinello. This individual has some interesting ideas about gargoylian genetics

Todd: The saccharine line gets me every time!

On another note:
I have been reading about Gargoyles 2198, and I have one quick comment. Does it strike anyone else as odd that the Resistance would be lead by a biologically-20-year-old? (Esp. when that gargoyle, Samson, was apparently rather older in the original formulation of that spin-off). I would have thought that the 2198 Samson wouldn't be experienced or connected enough, and would be at best a local leader.

Since Greg Weisman apparently checks in here every now and again, I am a little leery of proposing alternatives outright. However, in this post I have referred to an alternative that I cannot claim as my own....

(Note: I'm purposely trying to limit the length of my posts.
JJ "Gregarius" (T) - [Nahnah@nana.nah]
Orlando, FL
Monday, September 8, 2003 09:17:34 PM
IP: 65.244.173.75

Thought for today: You know that you've seen "Gargoyles" too many times when you feel guilty about buying "Arm and Hammer" products. (I don't, actually, but I've found myself several times thinking of such a remark when I see the logo, which is on the brand of kitty litter I buy.)

Saw my tape of "Monsters" this afternoon (which may be appropriate, in view of the mentions of Sevarius in the middle of the Mendel discussion today). I will confess that I liked this one a lot more than is customarily the case in "Gargoyles" fandom. Much of it is my fondness for British settings. And Sevarius is a lot of fun as always, getting some of the best lines (such as his threat to stick his finger down his throat if the scene between Angela and Nessie gets any more saccharine or "Monster love". That last line almost sounds like the name of a rock group - or at least, a song - maybe a more romantic version of "The Monster Mash.")

It's a landmark moment, not only because we find out about Angela being Goliath's biological daughter, but also because of the Xanatos Goon Squad (except for Bruno) getting killed off at the end. I hadn't realized it the first time that I saw it, or else it would probably have had the same impact on me as the end of the Grimorum Arcanorum in "Avalon", and for the same reason - both were elements of the series that had been in there from the beginning, in "Awakening".

I still find it interesting, by the way, that in Greg Weisman's Master Plan, there really were gargoyles living in Loch Ness after all.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, September 8, 2003 07:45:12 PM
IP: 171.75.194.44

Gregor Mendel> bingo, thats him. also kinda a personal hero to me. i breed gerbils for patterns and colors using the techniques he developed. i've been trying to apply the same genetics to gargoyles, but with so many variations its hard to see what is dominant and what is recessive...
matt
Monday, September 8, 2003 05:09:22 PM
IP: 207.230.53.32

Gregor Mendel: a monk who studied the breeding of plants such as peas and flowers. He developed the theory that characteristics of an organism (such as height, color, etc.) can be inherited in discrete units that we now call genes. In a nutshell, he is the father of genetics.

Sevarius probably considers him a saint.
JJ "Gregarius" (T) - [Nahnah@nana.nah]
Orlando, FL
Monday, September 8, 2003 02:44:25 PM
IP: 65.244.173.75

Actually, the guy's name in the Kafka story is Samsa.
Gabriel
Monday, September 8, 2003 11:32:05 AM
IP: 129.120.86.161

oops, that was Gregor Sama.

::does a "Mouth' impression from "Goonies"::

-Well, same difference. I mean the character was named after him wasn't he!?. :p
Leo
Monday, September 8, 2003 11:31:54 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Re: Gregor Mendel

H was the main character from Kafka's "Metamorphosis" who turned into a dung beetle.

"Prepare the ship for metamorphosis. Ready, Kafka?" -Spaceballs :)
Leo
Monday, September 8, 2003 11:24:34 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

And I guess that makes me tenth.
Aaron
Monday, September 8, 2003 11:19:21 AM
IP: 66.139.49.253

Mendel did something with the selective breeding of peas, I think.

Didn't they decide recently that he'd fudged most of his work?

Aaron
Monday, September 8, 2003 11:19:04 AM
IP: 66.139.49.253

9th!
Leo
Monday, September 8, 2003 11:17:58 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

8th. Didn't he have something to do with genetics? I think he was a monk or something....
Gabriel
Monday, September 8, 2003 10:36:51 AM
IP: 129.120.86.32

7th !
Babs
Philly, Pa
Monday, September 8, 2003 09:05:52 AM
IP: 68.80.221.74

6TH in the name of Gregor Mendel!

*ten points if you can tell me who he is!*
matt
Monday, September 8, 2003 05:48:07 AM
IP: 207.230.48.23

I guess I'll claim a spot. What is it, five?

I really did see a commercial for Gargoyles on Ice.
Dernhelm - [springsprite@email.com]
Okla. City
Monday, September 8, 2003 03:10:39 AM
IP: 68.12.196.86

11 base 3
JJ "Gregarius" (T) - [Nahnah@nana.nah]
Orlando, FL
Monday, September 8, 2003 01:36:19 AM
IP: 65.244.173.75

........................3rd. Must be fate. My favorite # two weeks in a row.

Vin
castle0909
Monday, September 8, 2003 12:40:50 AM
IP: 152.163.252.100

*stops to have a debate within himself about whether or not he should claim a spot*

Oh well, in honor of some of my computer classes, I claim the binary number 010.
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, September 8, 2003 12:15:44 AM
IP: 204.94.193.18

First.

Haven't made a real post here in months. Maybe I will sometime soon...
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Monday, September 8, 2003 12:01:45 AM
IP: 199.79.253.125