Comments for the week ending February 16, 2004

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"After all with everybody jumping ship at Disney, they just want to save their investment before price of a share goes in the toilet."

So I guess me considering applying for an internship at Disney now would be a bad thing? ;)
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Sunday, February 15, 2004 10:50:19 PM
IP: 65.119.228.206

Hey cat!

I have had heart problems too, we have stuff in common! Glad there was nothing wrong in either case eh?

Other than that Fox thing, Xanatos had exhibited all the symptoms of classic psychopathy. I would rather he had actually been a psychopath. It would have been easier to accept.
Talon
Sunday, February 15, 2004 06:19:57 PM
IP: 129.234.4.10

****A fire jumps up in the fireplace, taking on the shape of Blaise's head.**** Just a few quick thoughts and responses.

TALON> IMHO, the fact that Xanatos genuinely loved Fox, and wasn't just "stringing her along and using her as a test subject" is what makes him a better and more interesting character. He's not just some two-dimensional obstacle the gargoyles keep fighting against, but a full person with his own relationships and priorities. In fact, the creative team hadn't set out to make Fox and Xanatos an item, but as Greg and the others developed the story further they found that Fox loved Xanatos, and even more surprisingly, Xanatos loved Fox as well. It was a revelation, in the same way that the creative team realized Owen was Puck. Something that just naturally grew out of the work.
Now, Thailog, however, is another matter entirely (there's no doubt that he was stringing Demona along, and not just for business purposes...).

THE XANATOS PROGRAM IN FUTURE TENSE> I really shouldn't be reading too much into an illusory world created with the sole intention of getting Goliath to give up the Pheonix Gate, but....
Evil-Lex's Xanatos program and the one Goliath fought, were, I think, two different things. Evil-Lex said that he had to keep Goliath busy while the program was being downloaded. What better way to keep him busy than fighting a virtual-Xanatos in cyber-space? But, again, I feel like I'm reading way too much into this.

COMCAST TAKING OVER DISNEY> I don't like it, personally. I've got nothing heavy against either side of the affair, but I'd really rather that the Walt Disney Company remain its own entity, Eisner or no. And, like Greg, I think Comcast's big enough already. Maybe this is somebody's attempt to "save" Disney, I can't say for certain, but I honestly don't think that it needs saving through a "hostile takeover."

Well, that's it for now. I'll check back here later on. Until then, farewell. ****Blaise's flaming head vanishes as the fire goes out.****
Blaise
Sunday, February 15, 2004 06:04:06 PM
IP: 209.178.147.47

Hey! I'm back! I didn't have to have a heart surgery after all *whew!*, but I'm glad that's out of the way. Anyway, I'm still pretty tired and am going to take it easy, since my legs are bruised up I waddle, kind of like a duck.

Anyway, that was my week.
The Cat
Sunday, February 15, 2004 05:18:26 PM
IP: 205.188.209.40

I really am worried about this Comcast deal. It will be the #1 media company and the fact the Comcast head worked for Disney is a plus, but I worry about Disney losing its soul. Some would argue it already has, but I wonder if a bunch of cable execs running things would really make things worse. I guess we just have to hope for the best.
james_anatidae - [parshallNOSPAM@citcom.net]
Sunday, February 15, 2004 02:55:34 PM
IP: 207.144.84.89

Dear Gargoyle Fans and Friends:

It's been a long time since I put a post up, but in the light of a possible hostile take-over by Comcast of Disney, I just wanted to make a few comments.

I seems to me that the merger will go through. With Pixar gone and now Mirimax threating to leave, a sellout will look more attractive to the Board and stockholders. Not that I would blame them. After all with everybody jumping ship at Disney, they just want to save their investment before price of a share goes in the toilet.

Also, although I can't prove it, I have a feeling that Roy Disney may be in the shadows of this buy-out. What a great way to get control of Disney back but to orcastrate the hostle take-over and then graceously take the reins of a "new" Disney for Comcast. A great way to stick it to Eisner, too.

How this will effect the possible return of Gargoyles is uncertain. Maybe Greg could shed some light on this.

Pax,

Xeennexx
Xeennexx - [xeennexx@accesstoledo.com]
Toledo, Ohio, USA
Sunday, February 15, 2004 02:33:50 PM
IP: 207.43.107.236

I actually didn't think that the Xanatos program was permanently defeated, I would have thought that it was only temporarily weakened so that Goliath was able to escape.

I liked the concept of Future Tense, because Xanatos did not have his credentials as a perfectly good (or perfectly bad) villain marred. I felt that I would have enjoyed far more the episode where Fox wears the Eye of Odin, IF it had transpired that Xanatos had been stringing her along and using her as a test subject.

And Talon does get Sevarius in the end!
Talon
Sunday, February 15, 2004 02:32:29 PM
IP: 129.234.4.76

ALEX GARG - You wrote: [in the course of his description of the adventure he (or Angela or Elisa) brings up that the Phoenix Gate was used, and I can't see how it wouldn't without really skimming on details]

Its possible; It really does depend on where the conversation takes them. My thinking is that while Goliath wouldn't be trying to keep secrets from Hudson and the Trio, the odds are good that on some things he's going to be vague. (Not just on the FUTURE TENSE dream but maybe also on something like the events of EYE OF THE BEHOLDER; after all both events have to be a bit embarrassing and painful for him when he sits back and reflects on them.)


MATT - You wrote: [maybe he would cut the Magus some slack because the Magus was in a bad situation and made a bad mistake, but he immediatly admitted his mistake and took actions to repay his debt.]

Except that Brooklyn was already cursed and in a state of living death when the Magus discovered he was wrong and started to feel bad. So he didn't see or hear any of this. And as for the Magus helping to raise the Eggs, while that was an attempt to atone for what he did, its still something abstract to the person he cursed. Finding out later on from Goliath and Angela that he felt bad about it and tried to make amends might be something that gives him a little closure on the subject but thats not the same as changing his feelings towards the man and what he did.

You wrote: [this whole debate has already been covered in the show, when Magus was on his deathbed:
Magus: "But... I cursed your Clan..."
Goliath: "You saved our children."]

First the major problem here with Goliath granting any sort of forgiveness is that Goliath is not the injured party. The Magus didn't curse him; Goliath asked him to place him in stone sleep. Only the person who was hurt has the right to grant forgiveness to the person who hurt them. That's why murder is so unforgiveable; basically the person who was murdered can never forgive the murderer. (I prefer to view Goliath's statement as being less of forgiveness and more of comfort given to someone who was dying. After all if he wanted to forgive him he could have said "I forgive you" outright.)

Originally when I first saw the episodes I both couldn't and didn't want to sympathize at all with the Magus. But on watching the AVALON episodes over and over and over again I found that while I could not let go of the fact that he did what he did, I did find myself becoming more sympathetic to him due to his behavior in the aftermath; the way he acted and the steps he took raised my opinion of him even if I still believe he can only receive forgiveness only from those he hurt (i.e. Hudson and the Trio). It was not just that he had spent his life living on Avalon and caring for the Eggs but also that in his atonement he refused to allow anyone to take away his guilt. He may have pitied himself but he didn't allow anyone to minimize his responsibility; he spent his life trying to overcome what he did and to change himself.

You wrote: [the Magus gave the rest of his life to try and make up for his mistake, and he eventually died to repay the Clan.]

I viewed his death more as an attempt to save his children than to simply repay Goliath for cursing the surviving members of his clan. After all its not entirely clear that he went into battle with a desire to die even if he knew that there was a good chance he would die. I do think that it is fair to say that he did spend his life trying to make up for what he did. To me (and without minimizing in any way the fact that he did die in a noble cause/effort) it was that atonement that mattered much more than dying in the end. How he lived is just as important as how he died.

You wrote: [Goliath was perhaps the most adversly affected by the Magus' curse.]

I think that Hudson and the Trio being forced into a state of living death without consent is an example of being adversely effected. Goliath, while hurt emotionally, did have the option to live out his life and chose not to. In fact if he'd waited another hour he would have been reunited with Demona. Goliath had a choice that the others didn't. In my mind that takes away from saying that he was the most adversely effected.


TODD - You wrote: [If the Xanatos Program had already been defeated by Goliath before Lexington's treachery had been revealed, then that would take a lot of the urgency out of the final scenes before Goliath realizes what's going on.]

Actually it only takes away urgency if you realize what has happened. The scenes still work because Goliath never gets a chance to put everything together. The first thing Goliath does after defeating the Xanatos Program is mourn Brooklyn and Angela at which point Lexington suddenly appears and throws him off before he can get his mind straightened out.

You wrote: [I don't think that Brooklyn's fury would be quite as strong against the Magus as it is against Demona, because a lot of his anger towards Demona comes from the personal betrayal factor]

I agree that he'd be much more likely to fiercely hate Demona than the Magus. I was just trying to use the two as a comparison; given that Brooklyn is able to hold such a grudge against Demona, odds are good that he would be able to hold a grudge against the Magus too, even if in comparison it wouldn't be as strong or consuming.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, February 15, 2004 12:18:20 PM
IP: 12.75.154.165

The trials and trevails of Michael Eisner continue ever onward. Harvey Weinstein, chief executive of Miramax, wants to break away from Disney.

The article (click the web site link) suggests the move is part of Comcast's bid to buy the company. Doesn't seem like it's a good season for Eisner...
DrFaust
Sunday, February 15, 2004 07:51:38 AM
IP: 128.230.169.172

Mooncat wrote [You are getting e-mails from your e-mail addy that you never sent?]

Heck, the problems of checking the 'net twice a week is that one misses out a lot in between.

Well... no. I meant that I've got a small (but potentially disastrous) spam problem with my inbox. But I've received a mass-mailing virus spoofing a several of my friends' addresses. What I meant was I checked the subject line of your e-mail through Google and Symantec with no fruitful results. Of course, that doesn't mean it's not a virus, but it is _most likely_. As Vertigo1 pointed out, it is very easy for a knowledgeable person to do this, with the tools available on the 'net.

I must still conclude that it was a spam mailing list using a mass-mailing tool, wherein someone was (as you pointed out) stupid enough to send the victim spam with their own address.

Vertigo1> You a sysad? (JUst curious. I'm one. :)
TC
Sunday, February 15, 2004 06:29:18 AM
IP: 203.167.2.6

[His anger isn't based on Demona's general actions against the clan and humanity, but on the fact that he'd actually helped her with one of his schemes and is projecting his anger at himself for being used by her out at her.]

I think that's pretty much the correct interpretation, but I wouldn't rule out the Christine Morgan theory about events that might have occurred off screen. I know if someone had recently tried to kill me, I wouldn't jump to help her after being shown some examples of humanity's dark side, even if I had once respected her.
James Anatidae - [parshallNOSPAM@citcom.net]
B, N, US of A
Sunday, February 15, 2004 04:03:32 AM
IP: 207.144.234.72

Hmm... If the Xanatos Program had already been defeated by Goliath before Lexington's treachery had been revealed, then that would take a lot of the urgency out of the final scenes before Goliath realizes what's going on. (Greg might be able to explain that, but for now I'll assume that it could be just another one of Puck's little inconsistencies that Goliath didn't notice. "Future Tense" - Puck's illusion, that is - did have a number of plot-holes in it anyway: Xanatos taking the "cliched villain" route of becoming an open dictator over New York - I can't imagine him actually doing such a thing; it would be far too melodramatic for him, everybody knowing that Goliath's got the Phoenix Gate, the Xanatos Program being able to kill Demona, the U.S. government just allowing Xanatos to control New York for 32 years without making an effort to reconquer it - though Puck would probably have come up with some explanation along the lines of "they tried, but Xanatos's technology was so advanced that it could make mincemeat out of anything that the Pentagon could throw at him", and so on. For that matter, Xanatos's revelation that he'd found out from Alexander where the rebels were hiding loses a lot of its oomph once we find out that Lexington was the real mastermind behind it all - which means that he'd known all this time where the rebels were and simply hadn't bothered taking advantage of the information to send his troops into the Labyrinth and get rid of the lot of them.)

I don't think that Brooklyn's fury would be quite as strong against the Magus as it is against Demona, because a lot of his anger towards Demona comes from the personal betrayal factor; Demona had duped him into stealing the Grimorum Arcanorum so that she could use it to turn Goliath into a zombie under her control. His anger isn't based on Demona's general actions against the clan and humanity, but on the fact that he'd actually helped her with one of his schemes and is projecting his anger at himself for being used by her out at her.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, February 14, 2004 07:11:45 PM
IP: 171.75.244.92

Airwalker> "Particularly I think from Brooklyn's perspective. If he could take Demona's betrayal the way he did, then why would he cut the Magus any slack?"
maybe he would cut the Magus some slack because the Magus was in a bad situation and made a bad mistake, but he immediatly admitted his mistake and took actions to repay his debt.
this whole debate has already been covered in the show, when Magus was on his deathbed:
Magus: "But... I cursed your Clan..."
Goliath: "You saved our children."

the Magus gave the rest of his life to try and make up for his mistake, and he eventually died to repay the Clan. Goliath knows this and Goliath has forgiven him and feels indebted to him. and Goliath was perhaps the most adversly affected by the Magus' curse. so if Goliath goes back to NY and tell Hudson and the Trio about what happened i'm very confident that they would have a very difficult time holding anything against him.
matt
Saturday, February 14, 2004 05:13:03 PM
IP: 207.230.48.73

Airwalker>> [Why would he have to bring up the dream in order to explain how he met Griff? The two events aren't particularly connected. I could see him updating them on the fate of the Phoenix Gate, how it got to the Archmage and then how he threw it into the timestream to keep it away from Puck who tried to steal it from him but those don't require detailed explinations. And the adventure he had with Griff doesn't have to tie into those two events. He could recount it as a seperate adventure.]

Certainly, but if in the course of his description of the adventure he (or Angela or Elisa) brings up that the Phoenix Gate was used, and I can't see how it wouldn't without really skimming on details, I just imagine that there might be the follow-up question from somebody "You used the Gate? Where is it now?" and that could segue into a description (or lack thereof) of the dream.
Alex Garg
VA, USA
Saturday, February 14, 2004 02:14:50 PM
IP: 216.145.68.130

Ack - sorry, that was me.
Alex Garg
VA, USA
Saturday, February 14, 2004 02:09:59 PM
IP: 216.145.68.130

Battle Beast>> [I don't think any of the Gargoyles are sentimental (in reference to someone dieing). They saw it all the time in the 900's. They are used to it. They might be sorry to hear of his passing, but that's all. If Elisa died, that would be different.]

First, to clarify, I was using "choked up" in the broad sense of showing some sense of mourning over his death, not necessarily breaking into tears. I disagree that the gargoyles don't react to death, though. Certainly they didn't react to any of the Vikings dying because they were attackers; but I can't imagine that when a person they knew died that the gargoyles weren't slightly upset. As with humans, the level of grief would depend on the amount of interaction and the type of relationship between the gargoyle and the human - the death of an off-and-on acquaintance might not elicit much emotion; the death of a close friend (Elisa, as you suggested) would be taken much harder. But I don't think it's correct to assume that because the gargoyles are warriors by nature and experienced deaths of humans on a number of occasions that they are desensitized to the emotions associated with death *unless* it's a close friend.
Anonymous
Saturday, February 14, 2004 02:09:33 PM
IP: 216.145.68.130

MATT - You wrote: [i think that all things considered, the Trio and Hudson may not only hold no grudge against Magus, but may feel indebted to him.]

On a rational, logical level you have a point. The Magus is responsible for the fact that they made it to the 20th century where they have a chance for a much safer and more comfortable life. And while I think that your arguement is a pretty good rebuttal (I can imagine that if Angela and Brooklyn got in an argument over the Magus, this is the type of argument that she would use) I still don't see it coming to the minds of someone holding a grudge. Honestly the more emotional side of the argument is the one that would be more likely to be immediately recognized by the hurt party. I can't see the Trio sitting around and having the Magus come to mind and have them say "Oh, yeah I'm alive in the 20th century because of him! I really own him for that!" He's the one who cursed them after they came on to rescue him in the immediate aftermath of the greatest tragedy they every went through in their lives.

You wrote: [i asked Greg once what Hudson would do if he ever encountered Katherine and the Magus again consideing their treatment of him and the Clan and Greg said Hudson would thank them for raising the eggs.]

I agree that Hudson is the least likely of the four in question to hold a grudge. His thinking strikes me as being more along the same line as Goliath. The real question is what would the Trio think. And I don't think that the anger and hurt would be as possible to dismiss with them than it would be with Hudson. Particularly I think from Brooklyn's perspective. If he could take Demona's betrayal the way he did, then why would he cut the Magus any slack?


TODD - You wrote: [Good point about Lexington dying before his plan could succeed, but I'd say that he scored a posthumous victory; even though Goliath did kill him, he didn't do so in time to prevent him from spreading his Xanatos Program across the world.]

But technically didn't Goliath destroy the Xanatos Program before he was confronted by Lexington? So wouldn't that mean that Lex's threat was more of a bluff since he didn't really have an existing program to spread - it had just been destroyed a few minutes before?


ALEX GARG - You wrote: [I'm sure Goliath would have to at least bring up the dream in order to tie up some loose ends in the clan's consciousness - how Goliath ended up knowing Griff and what happened to the Gate after it was stolen]

Why would he have to bring up the dream in order to explain how he met Griff? The two events aren't particularly connected. I could see him updating them on the fate of the Phoenix Gate, how it got to the Archmage and then how he threw it into the timestream to keep it away from Puck who tried to steal it from him but those don't require detailed explinations. And the adventure he had with Griff doesn't have to tie into those two events. He could recount it as a seperate adventure.

You wrote: [my guess he became vague about it]

I don't think he'd bring it up much at all. Just saying "Puck tried to take it and I got rid of it" is a complete explination to Hudson and the Trio without much need for further detail. Angela and Elisa probably would have gotten more detail since he did faint in front of them and woke up babbling about everything being all wrong. But even then all they'd probably get is that Puck created a dream sequence to trick him out of the Gate; I don't think he'd mention Lexington being evil or everyone getting killed.


BATTLE BEAST - You wrote: [You're right... but I think he did tell most of them. You know, like "Shadows," but maybe not "Heritage," or "Cloud Fathers."]

I don't think he mentioned SHADOWS OF THE PAST since when he and Hudson battled Hakon in VENDETTAS, Hudson seemed suprised at the mention of the fact that Goliath had a previous encounter with the Spirit of Hakon. I don't think that HERITAGE would have come up although I could see some of the events of CLOUD FATHERS get a mention - after all an encounter with Xanatos is something likely to come up in conversation. I personally think that EYE OF THE STORM got glossed over with him not going into much detail over it. Its got to be a bit embarrassing for him after all.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, February 14, 2004 02:07:16 PM
IP: 12.75.156.146

Airwalker> [I figure that [Golaith] did largely tell Hudson and the Trio most of the adventures he went through with Elisa and Angela. But I don't think that every single adventure and interaction would have come up.]

You're right... but I think he did tell most of them. You know, like "Shadows," but maybe not "Heritage," or "Cloud Fathers."

[I don't think that Hudson would have bothered to hold a grudge against the Magus once he was awakened from stone sleep in 1994.]

Now that I think about it again, Hudson and the Trio may not have had time to realise what the Magus was actually doing in 994. They probably only realised he had done something to them when Xantos told them about the curse in 1994.

But, I know I have held big grudges against people... one person in particualr, and after that person did something special for me I forgave and forgot.

But I still know where that hatchet is burried. GREAT analogy, Airwalker. That's exactly how I think Brooklyn felt. Same with Lex and Dingo: (Goliath most likely told him about Dingo) One wrong move and lex has that hatchet in his hand again. Xanatos may have this problem with Golatih. Does he really 100% trust Xanatos? I don't think he can; we don't know what he's really up to in the mind of his.

Alex Garg> [As Airwalker said, the clan didn't wander for 1,000 years like Demona did, so the wounds left by the Magus' actions are still fresh in their minds. I tend to agree with the opinions of how Hudson and the Trio would react to the news of the Magus' change over the years, and I'm sure that they didn't get choked up when they learned he died.]

I don't think any of the Gargoyles are sentimental (in reference to someone dieing). They saw it all the time in the 900's. They are used to it. They might be sorry to hear of his passing, but that's all. If Elisa died, that would be different.


That is all I will say.




Battle Beast
Saturday, February 14, 2004 12:25:05 PM
IP: 142.59.69.28

Goliath revealing "Future Tense">> I'm sure Goliath would have to at least bring up the dream in order to tie up some loose ends in the clan's consciousness - how Goliath ended up knowing Griff and what happened to the Gate after it was stolen (I'm sure by this point the clan discovered its theft along with Coldstone). But I don't think Goliath would have gone into details about the dream (for the reasons which have already been posted); my guess he became vague about it - "It was a horrible dream in a world that we must make sure never comes to pass." I don't think he'd even bring up that it was supposed to be 40 years in the future just to avoid any questions that might force him to reveal more details. I suspect that he hit on the only important detail of the event - "Puck tried to take the Gate from me in a horrible dream to use for his own ends. I could not let that kind of power be used to carelessly." If anybody asked about the dream, see my earlier vague description.

Trio/Hudson-Magus relations>> As Airwalker said, the clan didn't wander for 1,000 years like Demona did, so the wounds left by the Magus' actions are still fresh in their minds. I tend to agree with the opinions of how Hudson and the Trio would react to the news of the Magus' change over the years, and I'm sure that they didn't get choked up when they learned he died. They might not have celebrated the news, but I don't think any would get choked up about it; Brooklyn might take the news hard but not because he felt sorry over the Magus' death but because, as Mooncat suggested (or at least what I read in it) the Magus was now beyond the reach of revenge (or at least confrontation).
Alex Garg
VA, USA
Saturday, February 14, 2004 11:36:04 AM
IP: 216.145.68.130

AIRWALKER - Good point about Lexington dying before his plan could succeed, but I'd say that he scored a posthumous victory; even though Goliath did kill him, he didn't do so in time to prevent him from spreading his Xanatos Program across the world. (Meaning, by the way, that the Xanatos Program would now be running things without Lexington or anyone else to guide it - I can only wonder what that would have been like.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis
Saturday, February 14, 2004 06:48:23 AM
IP: 171.75.194.35

i think that all things considered, the Trio and Hudson may not only hold no grudge against Magus, but may feel indebted to him. they have to know that had they stayed alive and awake in 994 that their chances of dieing of old age were slim. almost certaintly humans would've ended up killing them one way or another, just look at Demona's Clan! so not only did the Magus save them from a hard, sad and short life, but he opened them up to a whole world that they could benefit from and that could benefit from them.
at the time the spell was cast i don't doubt that Hudson and the Trio were mad at Magus, but destiny works in weird ways. sometimes we have something "bad" happen to us and it ends up making our lives so amazingly better we feel the need to almost thank the original wrongdoer.
i mean, look at Hudson and the Trio's situation: they are safe, happy and healthy living with their remaining Clan, they have a true friend in Elisa, they have a protectorate that benefits from them and all the Clan's eggs survived and are thriving. if they had never been put to sleep in 994 they would've had no guarantees of health, happiness or a protectorate, they would've been alone with no real human allies, the eggs would be in trouble and they would be unlikely to live very long. how can they possibly hold a grudge against Magus???
i asked Greg once what Hudson would do if he ever encountered Katherine and the Magus again consideing their treatment of him and the Clan and Greg said Hudson would thank them for raising the eggs.
nuf said.
matt
Saturday, February 14, 2004 02:39:52 AM
IP: 207.230.48.30

BATTLE BEAST - You wrote: [You know, when Goliath came home from the tour he filled in everyone on what happened.]

I figure that he did largely tell Hudson and the Trio most of the adventures he went through with Elisa and Angela. But I don't think that every single adventure and interaction would have come up. Its not like he kept a log after all and conversations tend to steer themselves sometimes. I imagine that he covered the most important events but that some stuff isn't going to come up easily. And of course Angela and Elisa are going to want to tell their versions of events; given all the stories to tell and all the various details to work out, it would make sense if some stuff got left out.

You wrote: [Furthermore, if Golaith told Hudson that the Magus and Princess were all good friends, Hudson would belive it]

I don't think that Hudson would have bothered to hold a grudge against the Magus once he was awakened from stone sleep in 1994. (In fact I don't really think that after AWAKENINGS 2-3 when he spent some time wandering around the castle with Bronx and discovered television, that the Magus would have come up in his thoughts at all.)

I do think though that when he found out how Katharine and Magus changed, how they came to raise the clan on Avalon, that he would have been happy about how they had developed. Though even then I think that he would dwell more on Katharine's change in behavior than on the Magus. After all he has a more personal connection with Katharine, from the time her father was almost assassinated. Unless we find out more, his relationship with the Magus at this point would have been much less personal and a bit more distant.

You wrote: [Brooklyn may hold a grudge. But I think Golaith telling them that it's all OK (with help from the fact that the eggs are hatch and alive) may help them forgive and forget.]

I agree that Brooklyn is the most likely to hold a grudge against the Magus but I'm not so sure that finding out that the eggs survived or how the Magus lived after the Fall of Wyvern would dull that grudge much. It would probably make him less likely to dwell on it but just because your not thinking about it doesn't mean that he wouldn't feel strongly about it if it came up. I think that he would be willing to bury the hatchet but he'd never forget where exactly the hatchet was buried.


MOONCAT - You wrote: [well since the Magus DIED during "Avalon" I don't think the Trio or Hudson are too knotted up over what he did to them a thousand years ago.]

Except from their perspective what he did to them wasn't really a thousand years ago. Someone like Hudson or Brooklyn who didn't actually live a thousand years from 994 to 1994 would be much less likely to feel detatched from the event that someone who had actually been wandering around for all that time would have. I think that in some ways, even with the Magus dead, what happened would still feel a bit raw to them.

You wrote: [Dying put him beyond their reach, good or bad. I think if they had any residual ill will to the guy who basically cursed them to what was supposed to be living death after they just saved his hash, I think they'd keep it under their hats out of respect for Angela's feelings of the subject ever came up.]

I agree that they'd be likely to not say anything about it if they still did hold a grudge, particularly to spare Angela's feeling, but the likelihood is that at least one of them must still feel strongly about the Magus and what he did to them.

You wrote: [Magus for all intents and purposes one of Angela's rookery fathers, so I think it would cut his memory some slack with the guys.]

I'm not so sure about that; largely I think that the majority would let go (i.e. Hudson and Broadway are likely have completely forgiven him and moved on while I think that Lexington wouldn't have given much of a damn either way and wouldn't really have it much on his mind at all) but I'm not so sure if he would get as much slack as we might think. At the very least I don't think that Brooklyn would let go of any grudge he might have although I don't think that he would think about it much. But if the Magus came up in conversation, I could see him being the type of person to express discomfort on the subject through body language or just up and leave the room.

You wrote: [If anyone has a truly justified grudge against the Magus, it's the Weird Sisters.]

The thing is that this was more Tom's fault than anyone else. When the Sisters rejected the group and told them to leave, the Magus looked like he was going to plead with them when Tom got involved and upset everything. At that point Magus was simply protecting himself and the group.

You wrote: [Avalon wasn't abandoned, it had living security guards (the Sisters) who were under no obligation to open Avalon to refugees.]

True. The problem results mainly from the behavior of the Sisters though. Tom started screaming and they attacked despite the fact that the group wasn't a threat. If they had kept their cool, Katharine would have quieted down Tom and they would have figured out some other option. Most likely the group would have turned back. The Sisters were terrible guards with poor judgement.


TODD - You wrote: [I doubt that Goliath ever told the rest of the clan (or anybody else) about the details of "Future Tense". It was probably too troubling for him.]

I'm not entirely sure about that; he had to mention something to Angela and Elisa after he woke up at the end of the episode. I don't think he went into specific detail on what Puck came up with but I think that he would have mentioned the basic outlines of the world he was forced to experience.

You wrote: [Though I can't help wondering what Lexington would have thought about his alternate self being a scheming criminal mastermind (and part cyborg) who actually successfully took over the world.]

I'm more curious to know how he'd react to the fact that Goliath could kill him so quickly and so easily. And I'd also be curious to wonder how Goliath would react to that as well. (Oh, and to be specific, Lex didn't take over the world - he got killed 30 seconds before he was about to take over the world.)


BROOKLYNXT - You wrote: [But there are 3 types of gargoyles, right?]

No; there are three races currently walking around on Earth in the Gargoyles Universe. The Fey (also called the Children of Oberon, i.e. all the magical beings we've seen in the series), Humans, and Gargoyles.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, February 14, 2004 01:29:59 AM
IP: 12.75.156.85

Airwalker>What you told me is intresting. Thanks allot man!
But there are 3 types of gargoyles, right? What exactly is the difference. Maybe proto then modern and finally trans... or is it someing else? I know the past gargoyles would be primitave, modern would be the gargoyles like Demona Brooklyn and so on. But the 3rd?

Is that inbetween modern and proto, a anchent super race, a race from the future, or Gargoyles and humans mixed! Half-breeds in ohter words, but is that the same as half-breed... a fey I mean? I'm not too fimilure with feys, the only place I heard that was in fan-fic and by some people.

Just woundering what exactly that was once and for all. Don't know how I ever missed that but I've forgoten some things about gargoyles over the years. A refresher would help ha ha.

Thanks, that is all I will say, for now!
BrooklynXT
Saturday, February 14, 2004 12:02:10 AM
IP: 63.185.41.201

I doubt that Goliath ever told the rest of the clan (or anybody else) about the details of "Future Tense". It was probably too troubling for him. Though I can't help wondering what Lexington would have thought about his alternate self being a scheming criminal mastermind (and part cyborg) who actually successfully took over the world. (Or, for that matter, what Brooklyn would have thought about his alternate self and Demona being mates - actually, that would be one more good reason for Goliath *not* to tell the clan about the details of that nightmare!)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, February 13, 2004 09:38:09 PM
IP: 171.75.194.62

Magus and the Trio, well since the Magus DIED during "Avalon" I don't think the Trio or Hudson are too knotted up over what he did to them a thousand years ago. Dying put him beyond their reach, good or bad. I think if they had any residual ill will to the guy who basically cursed them to what was supposed to be living death after they just saved his hash, I think they'd keep it under their hats out of respect for Angela's feelings of the subject ever came up. Magus for all intents and purposes one of Angela's rookery fathers, so I think it would cut his memory some slack with the guys. If the Magus were alive, and not a totty old guy with his feet already halfway in the grave, things might be a bit more acrimonious, but a thousand years of penace by caring for the clan's young probably would take some of the edge off along with the Magus's changed attitude.

If anyone has a truly justified grudge against the Magus, it's the Weird Sisters. He basically forced his way into the home they were charged with protecting even though they told him, "no" and then he and his group camped out there even though they had no permission and after a few years on Avalon they could have left to go back to the regular world without fear of Constantine because he would have died. The Magus and the rest weren't merely escaping until a bad situation blew overr, they were colonizing Avalon.

Avalon wasn't abandoned, it had living security guards (the Sisters) who were under no obligation to open Avalon to refugees. Sympathetic as I am to the Avalon clan, only Ophelia showed the least respect for the fact the Magus, Katherine and Tom had forcibly invaded another people's lands/kindom and simply set up permanent shop in the homes of those people while they were out. The gargoyles I hold as innocent, because they were eggs, they had no choice into their transport. Avalon was all they knew, but by the concepts of Right and Wrong that Tom, Katherine and Magus taught the the hatchlings, Ophelia knew the humans were actually in the moral/ethical wrong.

Mooncat
>^,,^<


Mooncat
Friday, February 13, 2004 12:03:31 PM
IP: 68.102.17.133

[You know, I've always wondered about that - just because Goliath forgave the Magus in Avalon 3, what would the opinion of Hudson and the Trio be on the Magus? I mean I could figure Hudson letting go of any hard feelings and go along with Goliath's decision to forgive the Magus but I wonder about the Trio. I imagine that Broadway and Lexington wouldn't be that particularly interested with Broadway the most willing to forget and move on but Brooklyn in particular strikes me as someone who wouldn't have been so willing to just forgive so easily and forget. It would have made for some interesting interaction between him and Angela; when Demona speaks about the Magus and Katharine, Angela is able to largely dismiss it but Brooklyn's attitude would not be as extreme as Demona and would have a more legitimate base to it than whatever Demona starts ranting about. ]


You know, when Goliath came home from the tour he filled in everyone on what happened. In my mind he went adventure by adventure, starting with the eggs and ending with Puck's deception. (This of course would've taken too long to tell before Titania appeared, thus they would already know Puck is Owen.) So, Golith / Elisa would've told the Trio & Huson about Demona, MacBeth, the Archmage, Oberon, Et al.

Hudson strikes me as the kinda guy who wouldn't hold a grudge for very long. So when the Magus cast the spell, Hudson probably didn't know what was going on.

Furthermore, if Golaith told Hudson that the Magus and Princess were all good friends, Hudson would belive it and have no second thoughts. He trusts Goliath's judgement - that is why he gave the leadership to him.

The Trio, however, may have a hard time with it. Broadway might be the first to accept it, to please Angela possibly, but Brooklyn may hold a grudge. But I think Golaith telling them that it's all OK (with help from the fact that the eggs are hatch and alive) may help them forgive and forget.

That is all I will say.
Battle Beast
CanadaFriday, February 13, 2004 10:31:11 AM
IP: 142.59.145.149

BROOKLYNXT - You wrote: [Well about proto-fay? Isn't that a dragon gargoyle type race or super gargoyle? I would like to know about them.]

Proto-Fay is just a term I used in my post on the Lost Race. Question suggested that the Lost Race could have been elementals and to me elementals suggest a predecessor or more primative version of the Fey. Or to give them a name - Proto-Fay.

I never considered the term to apply or suggest any Dragon Gargoyle type race or Super-Gargoyle. I could imagine Gargoyles having developed from Dinosaurs and be related to Dragons the same way that Humans are related to Chimps. But elementals suggest something more along the lines of a Fey than a Gargoyle.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, February 13, 2004 10:01:00 AM
IP: 12.75.158.94

Airwalker>I'm sorry thats PROTO-FAY. I did not see some of my type-o's I see more but I don't think anybody cares. Only about the question. OK that should fix things if you were confused about what I said. Proto-fays, hmm!
BrooklynXT
Friday, February 13, 2004 05:04:00 AM
IP: 63.185.40.176

Long time no see you all, Hi! It's been awile sence I posted... Got into all these clubs at yahoo groups. It's fun, and I think they have Gargoyle clubs to were you can meet nice people that love the show to death. I would say if your a die-hard gargoyle fan to go and join these clubs. But not one thats just spam.

Airwalker>Hay whats up! Well about proth-fry? Isn't that a dragon gargoyle type race or super gargoyle? I would like to know about them.

And that's all I will say, for now!
BrooklynXT
Friday, February 13, 2004 04:52:17 AM
IP: 63.185.40.176

Airwalker>> As I am one of the new guys here, I say hello. And, after seeing your post, I no longer feel so bad about the monsters I can put together when I put my mind to it! <j/k>

Lord Sloth's Ask Greg Submission>> Am I the only one who got a kick out of it? Maybe I'm just going goofy?

Oh, from James Anatidae's Goliath/Wildwing page, I have an idea floating in my head. I am seeing connections now between Xanatos and the Tale Spin characters Shere Khan *and* Don Karnage. The obvious connection on the former, the idea that life is a game to be played to win -- but with no hard feelings -- from the latter.

Wish I could get involved in the other conversations, but time pressures us all! Me especially. :-( Last semester of a CS/Math major, with a grad class, trying to get into a grad school.
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Friday, February 13, 2004 01:01:10 AM
IP: 65.244.173.219

Airwalker & Todd:I agree with both you here. Yes it is possible.

One of the strengths of Gargoyles is that it accurately (given the subject matter) portrays real life. "Revenge is a sucker's game" AND 'No good deed goes unpunished'.

Posiible Revelation at the Gathering: I too don't think we shoudl be told. That said, I'm going to have to go to the Gathering this year.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Friday, February 13, 2004 12:45:31 AM
IP: 132.170.38.101

I think I've got a great question for Greg Weisman next time he does a live chat (that'll be sooner than Ask Greg).
So I want to run it by everybody here for:
1)To know if anyone's asked this before. I don't recall it in the archives.
-and-
2)So someone can remind me about it when the next chat rolls around, because I'll have forgotten by then.

Anyway,
Q: If you had been able to indefinaitely continue Gargoyles the way it was going past "Hunter's Moon", would you have gone as long as it could go, or would you have ended it at a predetermined point (for drama,etc.)?

Potential Problems:
1)Do I need to specify "and you have complete creative control"?
2)I know I spelled "indefiniately" wrong.

Any input is welcome. I'd like to craft a question that won't get a "Not saying" or some such un-answer.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Friday, February 13, 2004 12:23:43 AM
IP: 132.170.38.101

TALON - You wrote: [I wonder how bitter Brooklyn was towards the Magus, even though they are voiced by the same man? Beaky certainly seemed to voice resentment in that episode with Merlin's diary.]

You know, I've always wondered about that - just because Goliath forgave the Magus in Avalon 3, what would the opinion of Hudson and the Trio be on the Magus? I mean I could figure Hudson letting go of any hard feelings and go along with Goliath's decision to forgive the Magus but I wonder about the Trio. I imagine that Broadway and Lexington wouldn't be that particularly interested with Broadway the most willing to forget and move on but Brooklyn in particular strikes me as someone who wouldn't have been so willing to just forgive so easily and forget. It would have made for some interesting interaction between him and Angela; when Demona speaks about the Magus and Katharine, Angela is able to largely dismiss it but Brooklyn's attitude would not be as extreme as Demona and would have a more legitimate base to it than whatever Demona starts ranting about.

You wrote: [Isn't the message in Gargoyles about revenge to not leave a job half finished?]

Blaise and Todd are more on target - the show constantly and consistantly had a message going that revenge is wrong and counterproductive.

Although in a way I suppose that its possible to reach the conclusion from the series that if your going to pursue revenge you better be good at it. :-) But that isn't what the series was going for. (I've got to stop reading Machiavelli before I go online. :-) )


GREG BISHANSKY - You wrote: [If anything, he could have crushed the Manhattan Clan and the Mutates anytime he wanted to.]

The Mutates I agree he could have crushed anytime. But with the Gargoyles I think that there was a period when he would have had trouble finding them and thus easily crush them. (From THE EDGE through to EYE OF THE BEHOLDER its strongly possible that Xanatos didn't know where they were. He only managed to get a tracking device on Goliath in EYE OF THE BEHOLDER. From that point though he could have crushed them at anytime.)


BLAISE - You wrote: [I'd been wondering what you were up to. Quite a workload...yeesh. I don't envy you my friend.]

Yeah I decided to do my M.A. and become a teacher after the economy took my computer career down the drain with it. It wasn't even the difficulty in finding any job that got me on this path - I did manage to work for a while in Insurance. But I discovered one extremely important thing at that job - I can't stand office work. I had three bosses who were all literally sitting right behind me. And on top of that the level of incompetance was unbelievable - I would get work and told to finish it in three months. I'd get it done in 10 days and they wouldn't have anything else for me to do; but they also wouldn't let me do anything else either. I spent days literally just sitting around pretending to look busy. I just got fed up and decided that I didn't want to waste my life like that. I still for the life of me can't understand how people are able to work like that. Its living death! (OFFICE SPACE isn't just a movie; its a documentary. :-) )

So now I'm trying to speed through a Masters and get into a classroom; this term is a bit lighter in terms of the type of work they want from me but some of these classes are laughable. No teacher could get away with 3/4ths of the crap Educational Philosophers have come up with. They'd be eaten alive. (The hardest class I have this term is not difficult workloadwise but just because the professor in charge is an adjunct who is also a High School teacher and is teaching the 3 HOUR LONG CLASS exactly like a high school class. It damn mindnumbing; if it goes on like this I'm just going to start acting like a high school student. :-) )

You wrote: [Well, if Xanatos had been killed, he wouldn't have been there to save the gargoyles at the end of HUNTER'S MOON 3.]

True; but who's to say that they couldn't have escaped on their own? They got a warning shot but they still could have gotten away. It just would have been a lot more messy and would have had a situation where they might have had to attack the helicopter get televised but that doesn't mean escape wasn't impossible or that without Xanatos they would have died on that roof.


MATT - You wrote: [*sarcastically* oh yeah, i REALLY love Disney these days...]

I'm still upset about how they botched CASTLE IN THE SKY...


TODD - You wrote: [Demona's lived for revenge for a thousand years and winds up lonely, embittered, haunted by her internal demons but unwilling to admit it or take responsibility for her actions.]

While I agree that her desire for revenge was a strong part of creating what you described, I don't think that its entirely fair to imply that it was revenge alone. The horrible life she lived was in part largely due to her trying to originally do good and protect. Revenge only came in later to complicate matters. (And I'm not sure that she could really have lived for anything other than revenge from 1057-1994; without some strong goal to direct herself towards its strongly possible that her mind would have broken.)

You wrote: [Goliath goes after the Hunters for the purpose of revenge in "Hunter's Moon" and winds up blaming them for Elisa going over the dam, which was really because of his own actions.]

He did bear some responsibility for Elisa going over the dam but I think that it is a bit unreasonable to expect him to have been thinking straight after what happened. Lets not forget that we're dealing with a short period of time; there wasn't a way he could even begin to start to think that he bore any responsibility for what happened. (And while the drive of the show is that revenge is wrong, its very hard to argue with Goliath's motivation for his original revenge crusade.)

You wrote: [Hudson doesn't exactly kill Xanatos; rather, Xanatos's death is the result - apparently - of his equipment suffering some sort of malfunction due to damages and self-destructing, taking him with it.]

But the malfunction is due to the battle with Hudson so in a way we could argue that in the illusion world Hudson did end up killing him even if it was indirectly. (Personally even though it was an illusionary world, I'm reluctant to make Hudson's death in that world meaningless. Its more emotionally satisfying to say that Hudson managed to take Xanatos out rather than say that technically Xanatos got killed by his shoddy equipment.)

You wrote: [but it's more likely that things might have gotten worse, as in, for example, the execution of a helpless boy alienating many of Macbeth's nobles so that they rebel against him]

I still don't think that this would have been much of a problem for Macbeth. Morally of course it would be. But politically speaking I don't think that it would have been as troublesome as you think. After all if Macbeth had lost, Duncan would have killed Luarch and I don't think that it would have had much of an effect on his level of support.

You wrote: [or the deed starting Macbeth down the slippery slope to becoming another tyrant like Duncan.]

This is something else entirely and is not a bad reason to have spared Canmore. But its still really a moral reason. (Although in dealing with Canmore he could have kept him under lock and key or at the very least kept him somewhere he couldn't raise an army. I wonder if there might have been a reason that Macbeth's father wasn't so keen to place his son on the throne. Not just loyalty but also perhaps the sense on some level that Macbeth wouldn't be suited to be a Medieval King.)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, February 12, 2004 11:10:58 PM
IP: 12.75.158.113

Just wanted to show ya guys my new error page:
http://anatidae.homestead.com/siteerror404.html
James Anatidae - [parshallNOSPAM@citcom.net]
Brevard, NC, USA
Thursday, February 12, 2004 11:05:29 PM
IP: 207.144.84.222

What Titania Said To Fox -- well I want to know *^_^* and so do lots of people, even if it's simple and anticlimatic. But if some people don't want to know, they can always not listen when/if Greg lets us know.

Oh, and in the world of cloning, the first human embyro capable of developing into a viable baby was officially announced. Not that it will be a baby, it's a by-product of stim cell research/creation.

Mooncat
Mooncat
Thursday, February 12, 2004 10:08:02 PM
IP: 68.102.17.133

[Also, Greg Weisman has disclosed he will finally reveal what TITANIA whispered to FOX if we can register 500 people for this year's GATHERING. So join us in MONTREAL and bring some friends!]

Mind you, I still don't think that we really should find out what Titania whispered to Fox. Learning the answer might very well strip the question of its mystery and mystique. After all these years, could whatever answer Greg Weisman gives us possibly live up to our expectations?

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, February 12, 2004 06:58:13 PM
IP: 63.208.42.5

Why Derek didn't go to the police> Well, I always wondered why Xanatos would take his newest helicopter pilot (aka chauffeur) into some of his most public-protected companies? Did Xanatos trust Derek *that* much to show him around Gen-u-tech and expose him to Sevarius' experiments. Of course, Xanatos acted like he wasn't aware of any of it when Sevarius made his demonstration. Was he? I like to think Xanatos knew about the experiments all along? Did he have plans for Derek? Or was Derek's mutation truly accidental (defending his boss in the line of duty sort of thing). How would Xanatos have known that Derek would protect him by taking the shot?

Think it was mentioned in the Ask Greg library but Derek was just another pawn for one of Xanatos's schemes. Xanatos just needed to be believable enough to make Derek think he could trust him (coupled with Derek's assumption that he could handle anything Xanatos could throw at him). Xanatos and Servarius were both in on the plan to test the mutagen on random people that wouldn't raise suspicion (homeless people) and on Derek(conviently located). Derek's mutation wasn't accidental. Servarius pointed the gun in Xanatos's general direction but basically aimed for Derek once Derek was protecting his "boss."
Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Thursday, February 12, 2004 04:09:12 PM
IP: 128.113.166.203

I realize that some of you already know this, but this is a little something for those that don't. :)

A brief summary of how <B>worms</B> like SoBig work. What happens is that someone recieves the previously mentioned e-mail, most likely via Outlook Express (and with the preview pane enabled of course...) and gets infected without their knowlege. These are the same people that most likely don't have AV software or a firewall installed and just expect their computers to work perfectly everytime no matter what. Now, this worm pruses the address book of said user and picks someone at random and sends out more copies of itself while spoofing that person that it picked. Most people assume that the person being spoofed is where the worm/virus is coming from and bombard said person with alerts, leaving that person utterly clueless as to where the bug came from since most likely their machine is clean of any infections. Truth is, its not all that easy to trace the inefection back where it came from given how insecure the SMTP protocol is. All it takes is someone with a text editor and the right software to impersonate anyone anywhere at anytime.
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Thursday, February 12, 2004 03:56:14 PM
IP: 65.119.228.194

The Comcast merger is under advisement by the Disney board of directors. Eisner did reject it out of hand, but he's not the only banana in the bunch these days and his tenure at Disney may be coming to a close. Lots of information here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=Business&cat=Walt_Disney_Company

In other news: There's just over two weeks left for you to get your entries ready for the PHOENIX GATE ANTHOLOGY. The contest is open to both WRITERS AND ARTISTS. Go to http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com CONTEST page for more information.

Also, Greg Weisman has disclosed he will finally reveal what TITANIA whispered to FOX if we can register 500 people for this year's GATHERING. So join us in MONTREAL and bring some friends!
kathy
Thursday, February 12, 2004 01:37:40 PM
IP: 66.82.192.1

"I heard today that it was 66 billone, and that they've now done a hostile take over. Uh-oh. What's going to happen to the mouse house?"

Didn't Eisner turn the deal down? I thought I heard that mentioned some place, but it could just be speculation and my ability to not totally pay attention to news on TV. ;) I still believe Apple should buy Disney, rather than...ugh...Comcast.

Why Derek didn't go to the police> Well, I always wondered why Xanatos would take his newest helicopter pilot (aka chauffeur) into some of his most public-protected companies? Did Xanatos trust Derek *that* much to show him around Gen-u-tech and expose him to Sevarius' experiments. Of course, Xanatos acted like he wasn't aware of any of it when Sevarius made his demonstration. Was he? I like to think Xanatos knew about the experiments all along? Did he have plans for Derek? Or was Derek's mutation truly accidental (defending his boss in the line of duty sort of thing). How would Xanatos have known that Derek would protect him by taking the shot?

Man...I think I've just riddled my own conspiracy theory. Aye! ;)
Jim R. - [jim@dialwforwarp.com]
Thursday, February 12, 2004 11:59:34 AM
IP: 65.40.141.48

<<"Isn't the message in Gargoyles about revenge to not leave a job half finished?">>

I have to agree with Todd on this - I have just never read into the show's themes "Kill 'em now, save the headache later." The points of history you brought up show the detail of the show's plot archs, and of course as the events unfolded there was the sense of "Oh, jeez, if only..." But, then again, isn't that our experience in life and history? "If only I had left five minutes earlier..." "Of only I had paid more attention..."

So could you apply your theory to life? Nobody has the benefit of hindsight, and even if one did, history remains immutable (according to the show). Macbeth assumed that Duncan's son would give up his father's ways if given mercy - oops. But you can't flaw his logic - I think we all want to give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes. And how could Demona possibly have known that some child would take such extreme measures to avenge a few scars? Like what she says in "Hunter's Moon," "They've been hunting me for centuries. Why I have no idea." How could she have possibly made the connection "Oh, it's because I scratched some kid's face. Oops. Hey, y'all, sorry for deforming your great^30 grandfather. Truce?"

I think the theme we get from this is that small things can haunt us later - sort of like the "butterfly effect" (good movie, BTW). What seems like a small gesture or act at one point in time later becomes a huge deal. But I don't think the lesson we get from that is to kill everybody when they scorn you at every chance you get.
Alex Garg
VA, USA
Thursday, February 12, 2004 10:53:44 AM
IP: 216.145.68.130

TC - You are getting e-mails from your e-mail addy that you never sent? I'm not talking about being on a spam list, I'm talking about spam being sent out with my e-mail address falsely in the "From" line.

There are virus that harvest e-mails from the computers they infect (from e-mail and browser files) and send out copies of itself and strange e-mails masked in the harvested e-mails.

Some virus that do this are Sobig.f virus and some Klez virus the technique is called "e-mail spoofing"

I'm thinking it's either someone infected with a virus that randomly spoofed my e-mail addy, because plain spam usually spoofs e-mail addy's that don't exist. The less unhappy possibility is deliberate malicious spoofing by someone so stupid they sent the victim a spoof with their own e-mail addy.

It's really frustrating. I just hope no one thinks these spoofed e-mails with adult spam content came from me.

Mooncat
Mooncat
Thursday, February 12, 2004 08:47:15 AM
IP: 68.102.17.133

TALON - You seem to be reinterpreting the series to fit in with your own beliefs about revenge being a good idea, distorting things in a way that Greg Weisman and the other members of the production team never intended.

I would say that the strongest indication in the series that revenge is a bad idea comes not from the "external" effects as from the "internal" ones. Demona's lived for revenge for a thousand years and winds up lonely, embittered, haunted by her internal demons but unwilling to admit it or take responsibility for her actions. Goliath goes after the Hunters for the purpose of revenge in "Hunter's Moon" and winds up blaming them for Elisa going over the dam, which was really because of his own actions. It becomes clear that revenge is a corrupting influence and that even if you can "get away" with it, it makes you a worse person.

You also make a couple of factual errors:

1. Hudson didn't actually kill Xanatos; the whole "Future Tense" affair was just an illusion of Puck's. (And even within that illusion, Hudson doesn't exactly kill Xanatos; rather, Xanatos's death is the result - apparently - of his equipment suffering some sort of malfunction due to damages and self-destructing, taking him with it.)

2. Goliath did not kill the Archmage on either occasion. The first time, the Archmage ran at him, missed, and fell over the edge of the chasm, carried by his own momentum. The second time, Goliath did help bring it about but unintentionally - he pulled the Eye of Odin away simply to disarm the Archmage, and neither he nor the Archmage was aware at the time that the removal of the Eye would result in the Grimorum consuming the Archmage from within. (In fact, Goliath wouldn't even have been aware that the Archmage had eaten the Grimorum, since it happened before he came to Avalon.)

(As for the whole "if they'd killed the villains then, they wouldn't be a problem now", while that is a good point, I don't think that that's the whole picture. I find myself reminded of the scene in "The Lord of the Rings" where Frodo, after learning about how Gollum had informed Sauron where to find the Ring, asks Gandalf why Bilbo couldn't have just killed Gollum when he had the opportunity. Gandalf replies that Bilbo did the right thing in sparing Gollum - indicating that it helped him ultimately resist the worst of the Ring that he had not started off his ownership of it by killing Gollum; furthermore, Gollum's survival turns out, in the long run, to be a good thing when he completes the task of destroying the Ring at the Crack of Doom after the Ring overpowers Frodo.

Maybe things would have been better had Macbeth put Canmore to death in 1040 - but it's more likely that things might have gotten worse, as in, for example, the execution of a helpless boy alienating many of Macbeth's nobles so that they rebel against him, or the deed starting Macbeth down the slippery slope to becoming another tyrant like Duncan. Similarly, if Goliath had dropped Xanatos to his doom in "Awakening", it might have similarly resulted in his going down a dark path like Demona's to the point where he would never have been able to become the protector of New York.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, February 12, 2004 07:40:11 AM
IP: 171.75.194.95

Mooncat> I don't think it's a virus: checked Symantec and Google, no such luck. Your e-mail address was just "harvested" off the 'net and compiled into a spam list. My sympathies: I've got the same problem too :(
TC
Thursday, February 12, 2004 06:03:59 AM
IP: 203.167.26.138

Isn't the message in Gargoyles about revenge to not leave a job half finished? Remember in City of Stone the questions plied to Macbeth and Demona were about various deaths that had no effect? Each case was due to their not killing every one their enemies when they had the chance. If Macbeth had killed Duncan's son when advised, he would never have successfully conquered Scotland. If Macbeth had simply let Duncan fall when they were on that mountain, then he could have taken the throne of Scotland and kept his youth. If Demona had killed the original Hunter when he was a boy instead of scarring him, then she and the other gargoyles would not have had a deadly foe for life.

It doesn't seem as if Xanatos knew where the gargoyles were hiding after they left the castle. It is clear that he could easily have been killed in Awakening. That would be the logical time to do it. It would have averted most of the problems in the series from that point on: the mutates; the city being petrified; the Pack's formation and "upgrade"; Coldstone/fire/steel being rudely awakened etc etc I am not sure why Hudson would dissuade Goliath from simply dropping Xanatos from the skyscraper when he himself ended up killing him ten years later in future tense (This year!) I may be mistaken, but it looked like an option for Hudson to impale Xanatos after he escaped from the cage when Xanatos had been going to put him in the Cauldron of Life. It would have served Xanatos right for underestimating him.

Didn't Goliath kill the Archmage - twice? The first time, he pitched him into that gorge, then 1000 years later, took the Eye of Odin, which directly resulted in his disintegration.


Talon
Thursday, February 12, 2004 04:24:06 AM
IP: 129.234.4.1

*sarcastically* oh yeah, i REALLY love Disney these days...

if you ask me, Disney could use a hostile tackover...
matt
Thursday, February 12, 2004 03:05:55 AM
IP: 207.230.48.40

CKayote> I heard today that it was 66 billone, and that they've now done a hostile take over. Uh-oh. What's going to happen to the mouse house?

Is this the end of all we know and love??

I hope not.


That is all I will say.
Battle Beast
CanadaThursday, February 12, 2004 01:43:48 AM
IP: 142.59.145.149

*Look in the room* It's been a while since I've been here...
anyway, why Derk didn't go to the police? A major reason is
because he didn't know how everyone would respond to his
new appearance (I wonder how Captain Chavez would react).
kjay - [korimia.j.hall@us.army.mil]
fort bliss, tx
Thursday, February 12, 2004 01:43:18 AM
IP: 172.138.10.119

*Look in the room* It's been a while since I've been here...
anyway, why Derk didn't go to the police? A major reason is
because he didn't know how everyone would respond to his
new appearance (I wonder how Captain Chavez would react).
kjay - [korimia.j.hall@us.army.mil]
fort bliss, tx
Thursday, February 12, 2004 01:43:17 AM
IP: 172.138.10.119

Hey people,

You know how some e-mail virus takes your e-mail addy or the addys of other people from files on you computer? Well apparently someone has a virus and it's gotten MY email addy and it's being sent to people, including MYSELF.

Yes I just got an email that has my email addy in the FROM screen.

Needless to say I'm pissed off.

So this is a warning, if ANYONE gets an email that appears to be from me, MooncatX -- check back with me to be sure I sent it.

The e-mail I got had the subject line "Dream for perverts !"

I suggest people run periodic Anti Virus checks on your computer. The person with the virus could be anyone who has my e-mail addy in their files, which considering I'm on many Yahoo Groups/Mail lists could be anyone of several thousand persons.

If anyone posts to a list with a lot of people, or even a few people, it only takes one person on that list having a virus that collects addys to grab your e-mail addy from the infected person's Mail Programs and start sending out bogus spam mails, possibly virus carriers.

I scan every night, so I'm fairly certain I have no virus, and the current e-mails with my address/ID attached have come from some infected person who is on one of the many lists yahoo lists I'm on.

Just thought I'd warn people here in case anyone gets a message with my e-mail addy that seems off.

Now I have to go post to a lot of lists. I think it may be from the Zimmerman list. It has several thousand people on it and I recently posted on it. It could be from a smaller list but the bigger a list is the more chance is someone on it is virus infected.

Did I mention how pissed off I am?

Later
MooncatX
Mooncat X
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:33:48 PM
IP: 68.102.17.133

re: Lost Race> I wouldn't read too much into the name. One fan merely referred to them as such in AG, and among the other options fans came up with (like 'Zeroth' and 'Fourth Race'), Greg decided that Lost Race, "seems as good a moniker as any -- as a place-holder" to use when we needed to refer to them.

Airwalker> Hope to see you around more often. I miss you and Todds' back and forth discussions.
Vash
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:21:34 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

****Blaise squeezes his way into the Room through a crack in the wall.**** Hmmm, maybe this place could use some patching up...oh! Hi guys!

AIRWALKER> Long time, no see! I'd been wondering what you were up to.
Quite a workload...yeesh. I don't envy you my friend.

TALON> Well, if Xanatos had been killed, he wouldn't have been there to save the gargoyles at the end of HUNTER'S MOON 3. Renard was probably too sick, and his or Macbeth's hovercraft would have been even more conspicuous than Xanatos' copter. So, in the end, the gargoyle's assistance of Xanatos during the fight with Oberon wound up saving their behinds, whereas killing him might have left them high and dry in a time of need.
The effects might not even have stopped there. Fox may have dedicated herself to hunting down whoever killed the love of her life. And somehow I doubt that even Owen would let something like the death of one of his favorite humans slide. In this way the cycle of vengeance would continue and make life even worse for the gargoyles and/or mutates.
One of the recurring themes of the series was that revenge was a BAD thing to pursue, and just as destructive to one's self as to one's enemy (or even moreso). Remember, Xanatos, who is arguably more effective and successful than any other villain on the show, calls revenge "a sucker's game."

Well, that's it for me and my thoughts. I'll check back with you all later (well, I'm always lurking, but I'm hoping to comment more as well). Until then, farewell. ****Blaise waves his hand and patches up the crack in the wall. He gives his handiwork a satisfied nod, turns to leave, and falls screaming through a gaping hole in the ground.****
Blaise
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 07:59:51 PM
IP: 209.178.189.154

Welcome back, Airwalker. Long time no see.

I just had a creativity demon of Demona finding out about the Mutates and commenting in disgust, "It's not enough that you humans go around hunting us down and destroying us, but now you actually make cheap imitations of us!", and Sevarius immediately objecting to the use of the adjective "cheap" as an insult to his level of expertise.

Yep, Xanatos prepares for just about everything. I agree with Bishansky that he could have captured the gargoyles if he'd wanted to. The reason why he didn't was because he didn't see a reason to do so. It was obvious that the gargoyles were never going to agree to work for him after they'd discovered his true nature at the end of "Awakening", and having them out and about in the city could be useful to him at times (as in, whenever he needed to test his latest piece of new weaponry such as his gargoyle armor or the Pack's upgrades or Coyote and was looking for someone to send it up against, or when he needed some allies for something like breaking Demona's spell in "City of Stone"). The only situation that would have led to his making an all-out effort to capture the clan would have been if Goliath had decided to bring Xanatos down permanently, rather than merely turning back his assaults - and that, of course, never happened.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 07:12:23 PM
IP: 171.75.245.160

Demona on Mutates: I thinl she'd hate them even more. They are or at least represent humans co-opting and/or attempting co-opt Gargoyle-ity.
She didn't like it in 'the Mirror' when Puck gave the city's humans "the gift of being a Gargoyle". And I imagine this is similar, if not worse (humans did this on purpose).
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 04:34:11 PM
IP: 132.170.34.204

Exactly. Xanatos is by all means no fool. He tries to plan for just about anything, as evident throughout the series. He always has something to one-up Goliath & Co even though they ruin one of his plans. If he can afford to build robot after robot, build robots to deploy an energy shield around the tower to combat Oberon, and all the other things we've seen him use in the show, then surely he can afford a little something to keep out potential enemies from such a vulnerable entry point.
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 04:21:42 PM
IP: 207.65.59.138

TALON> <<Xanatos spends alot of time by that huge glass window. It should be fairly easy for a gargoyle or mutate to simply fly through it and kill him. Fang could have done - I'm sure he has no attachment to the other mutates.>>

And knowing Xanatos that "glass" is probably at least bullet proof. C'mon, give Xanatos more credit than that. If anything, he could have crushed the Manhattan Clan and the Mutates anytime he wanted to.
Greg Bishansky
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 03:48:44 PM
IP: 216.179.1.70

I bet Lex would have killed Xanatos in Awakening. Wasn't he in a murderous rage against the Pack? That indicates that he is far more inclined to kill than Goliath is.

I wonder how bitter Brooklyn was towards the Magus, even though they are voiced by the same man? Beaky certainly seemed to voice resentment in that episode with Merlin's diary.

Xanatos spends alot of time by that huge glass window. It should be fairly easy for a gargoyle or mutate to simply fly through it and kill him. Fang could have done - I'm sure he has no attachment to the other mutates.
Talon
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 02:17:23 PM
IP: 129.234.4.10

Disney news:

Comcast has offered to buy them out for $54 billion

Here's the link:
http://money.cnn.com/2004/02/11/news/companies/comcast_disney/index.htm
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:46:14 PM
IP: 132.170.34.204

Just wanted to pop into the room and let everyone know that I'm still alive. I've been doing my M.A. in Education the last couple of months so I've have zero time to sit down and really post anything. (Last semester was impossible - I was taking five classes and all of them assigned such a heavy amount of reading that I almost went blind.) I have still been lurking though and since I had some free time come up, I thought that I might as well try to jump back into the room:


LOST RACE - Personally I'm split between it being either Dragons or just something that we couldn't possibly have any information on at all from an in-story point of view. It really depends on what the term "Lost Race" implies. Does it mean that the race in question has simply gone extinct or could it mean that not only is this mystery race extinct but all trace of it is gone? If its the second option then it couldn't be any race that Humans or Gargoyles or Fey would have a memory of, which would eliminate suggestions like Dragons or Proto-Fey Elementals; it would have no be something completely original. (Still I wouldn't mind putting Dragons into the Lost Race category since it would make for an interesting way to deal with them without adding yet another group to the modern mix; we already have the three main races plus Mutates, Clones, New Olympians, and eventually three different variety of Aliens.)

WHY DEREK MAZA DIDN'T GO TO POLICE - I always figured that outside of the fact that he was a bit stubborn and also afraid, there is one other factor - he's basically thrown together with the other three Mutates at the end of METAMORPHASIS. Even if he didn't acknowledge it for a long time, he was basically thrown into a leadership position of a group that largely didn't want to go to any authorities aside from Xanatos. That had to have some influence on him.

WHY TALON DIDN'T KILL XANATOS - I agree with Blaise that Talon was going to try and kill Xanatos at the end of THE CAGE. (At the very least he was making a move towards him to attack him; that was one of the reasons that Xanatos gave him the warning shot.)


TALON - You wrote: [Yes, I agree that Maggie was not much to begin with, but she looks absolutely dreadful as a mutate.]

She's a catgirl; as an anime fan I'm obligated to love each and every catgirl that appears on screen. :-) (I would have prefered though if they had retained the cattails in the updated Mutate design though; I thought that it added balance to the characters.)

You wrote: [I really could not understand why Derek did not want to avenge that awful, smug parting shot from Sevarius!]

I don't think that its so much not wanting to avenge as much as it is being unable to. Sevarius makes the shot as he's being escorted away by several heavily armed robots and after that the two of them don't have any other contact in the series.

You wrote: [Incidentally, how does Demona view the mutates?]

I imagine that she'd view them the way she views everyone else in her life - are they useful or not? Are they her allies or her enemies?

You wrote: [Does she merely consider them as humans because of their birth, or does their condition make her equate them with gargoyles?]

I defintely don't think that she would think of them as equal to Gargoyles. If turning Humans into Gargoyles or the nearest Mutates equivilent would make her happy then she wouldn't have been so upset with Puck when he turned all of NYC into Gargoyles in THE MIRROR. I think that she would be more inclinded to make use of Mutates than she would of Humans if she had the opportunity since they have advantages that Humans don't (and it probably doesn't hurt that they don't look Human either).
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:27:20 AM
IP: 12.75.154.224

I understand that Blaise, but doesn't it make you wonder what other nastiness that Servarius had up his sleeve? He does have a lack of moral ethics after all.
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Tuesday, February 10, 2004 01:33:53 PM
IP: 65.119.228.197

Personally I also strongly disliked the first two "hunters," both the original and King Duncan. The Medieval Scottish storyline of City of Stone is my favourite Gargoyles animation.
Anonymous
Tuesday, February 10, 2004 03:38:43 AM
IP: 129.234.4.1

What about Xanatos' parting shot: "he's the scientist, you're just the experiment." Surely that would set your blood boiling? How on Earth was Talon content to just let that slide?!
Talon
Tuesday, February 10, 2004 03:33:12 AM
IP: 129.234.4.1

Hey, we're attempting a discussion of gargoyle physiology in the TGS comment room, and could use more people's imput.
So, uh, if anyone is interested...
http://www.s8.org/tgs/index.html
Lynati
Monday, February 9, 2004 08:59:05 PM
IP: 66.140.84.174

BLAISE - I seriously doubt that New Olympus and Atlantis are the same myself, especially because of the dates (Atlantis was destroyed circa 9000 B.C. according to Plato, whereas New Olympus was apparently founded between the Mycenean Age - when most of the events in Greek mythology took place - and the time of Caesar Augustus - fitting in with Boreas and Taurus's mention that Elisa was the first human to visit New Olympus in two thousand years; New Olympus was probably founded some time after Rome, incidentally, or at least had contact with it, since many of its features show Roman rather than Greek influence, such as its having a Senate-house, its power-center being called the Columnadium - which sounds Latin rather than Greek - and Jove's name in the projected spin-off.)

And Plato was the person mainly responsible for Atlantis in that he was the first person to mention it. (His most famous pupil, Aristotle, was convinced that Plato had invented the story, saying once that "he who created Atlantis also destroyed it", or something to that effect.) I have the theory that Plato invented the story in part as a way of glorifying his home city of Athens; in his account, the Atlanteans tried to conquer the known world but Athens alone stood up against them and defeated them (followed by the gods destroying Atlantis), and the very context of his story stresses it (Plato presents the story of Atlantis as having been discovered by the great Athenian statesman Solon, who was visiting Egypt and told by the Egyptian priests how the Athenians had saved the world from Atlantis although they didn't even remember it). He was no doubt influenced by Athens' real stand against the Persians at the Battles of Marathon and Salamis.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, February 9, 2004 08:18:24 PM
IP: 171.75.194.106

Demona and the Mutates> I think she'd view them with utter contempt as well. At least three reasons why.

1. Despite what Sevarius did, they are still humans. We all know how Demona feels about humans.
2. They are allied with Demona's enemies.
3. In the case of Fang, he'll later be allied with Robyn Canmore, a Hunter.

I can't think of any reason why Demona would not dislike them.
Greg Bishansky
Monday, February 9, 2004 03:43:08 PM
IP: 216.179.3.109

I think Maggie looks lovely as a mutate, even if her personality grates on my nerves. Claw... well have no idea what he looked like before, but now he's utter yum *^_^* grrrr tiger man!!! Demona's view of mutates, well she was imprisoned at the Labyrinth, but she free'd Fang when she herself was sprung. She view'd him with contempt, but thought he would be useful. I somehow get the feeling that the mutate looks does soften her opinions of them as opposed to regular humans, but by how much is uncertain.

Mooncat
Mooncat
Monday, February 9, 2004 02:08:28 PM
IP: 68.102.17.133

Mooncat said that Claw had not been harmed by the transmogrification; actually, he is mute - through PSYCHOLOGICAL reasons, not physiological reasons. So he is the worst affected mutate. Yes, I agree that Maggie was not much to begin with, but she looks absolutely dreadful as a mutate. The only character in Gargoyles whom I found sexually appealing was Demona - her madness give her an exotic aspect, don't you think? She also looks the most human of the gargoyles, which is ironic!

I really could not understand why Derek did not want to avenge that awful, smug parting shot from Sevarius! I would have determined just on that basis to get the pair of them no matter what. Fang was indeed a ne'er do well, but Greg doesn't want his backstory widely known. It came as no surprise though. I can sort of see eye to eye with him about the benefits of becoming a mutate. They are as strong as the gargoyles which makes their passivity with regards to Xanatos all the more bewildering. I don't know how much food they need - it would be a real asset if they didn't need any.

Incidentally, how does Demona view the mutates? Does she merely consider them as humans because of their birth, or does their condition make her equate them with gargoyles?
Talon
Monday, February 9, 2004 01:36:40 PM
IP: 129.234.4.10

****Blaise rides some kind of flying motorcycle into the Room.**** Yep, 'tis me again. I've managed to find some work in Los Angeles as an extra. It's not much, but at least it's a start for me in the entertainment field.

VERTIGO 1> First of all, a belated "Welcome" to the Comment Room! Always good to meet another fan!
Anyway, I don't think Greg intended for "New OLYMPUS" to be Atlantis (after all, he wrote a crossover with the now defunct TEAM ATLANTIS series that was based on the Disney movie). But it does beg the question of how can a second island disappear and not be missed? Maybe Plato's the only reason anyone bothers about Atlantis.
As for the mutates developing a condition like the clones...well, that whole thing with the clones occurred only in "The Goliath Chronicles" which, other than THE JOURNEY, Greg did not work on, and does not consider cannon. So, as far as most of us are concerned, the clones are still unpetrified and well.

WHY DIDN'T DEREK MAZA GO TO THE POLICE> Many people have offered very valid arguments as to why he and everyone else had to keep a low profile. However, I didn't see many "character explanations" if you will.
I mean, Derek is a very stubborn, head strong young man who doesn't like to ask for help. Remember, he had the chance to bring the police in immediately (Elisa and Matt were at Gen-U-Tech's door when he got hit with the dart), but it would have meant admitting to his sister that Xanatos was involved in some shady dealings. Derek's own stubborn pride led him into this trap, and kept him in it right up until THE CAGE. Afterwards, he probably considered it too late to do anything about (and, as has been mentioned, Xanatos is still probably their best chance at being human [insert derisive laugh here]).
The other mutates have different reasons. Maggie and Claw are probably too frightened (of what they have become and of how the rest of the world will view them). Claw has the added handicap of being mute, which would make him seem even less human to unknowing eyes. And as for Fang...does he really need an explanation? Personally, I always thought he was a minor hood even before the mutation.

WHY TALON DIDN'T KILL XANATOS> Unlike some, I actually believe that Derek did intend to kill Xanatos at the end of THE CAGE. When he's finally figured out that not only was Xanatos behind everything, but that Xanatos had deceived him all this time, it looked to me like he was about ready to rend Xanatos limb from limb like he had been about to do with Sevarius (and Goliath). But Xanatos wasn't unarmed, like Servarius, or unwilling to hurt Derek, like Goliath. A warning shot from a laser was enough to give Derek pause, and give Xanatos a chance to increase his psychological edge, thus providing escape. Even then, Derek's mental state was pretty overwhelmed--his sister had been right all along about Xanatos, and Derek had been about to murder an innocent (Goliath may not be human, but I do think Derek would be horrified at killing an obviously intelligent being who didn't do him any wrong).
After that, again, Xanatos may still provide a cure eventually. And his death may lead the authorities to discover some things that could be bad for Derek (and our gargs). Besides, Derek has decided to devote his time to helping the homeless and the less fortunate.
However, Derek remains a man of passion, and when he thinks Xanatos is behind his sister's disappearance he heads off, heedless of the cost, to beat the "truth" out of him.

THE LOST RACE> I'm still trying to rack my brains about this one. I don't think they're dragons (the three races have had plenty of contact with those). Perhaps they are some variation of the Titans, or other mythological races that existed "before time."

Well, I'd better jet--got a lot of errands to run today, and too little time in which to do them. Later all! Until then, farewell. ****Blaise revs up his flying bike and...it explodes. A very charred Blaise picks himself up from the ground and staggers out through the door, muttering curses all the way.****
Blaise
Monday, February 9, 2004 12:59:42 PM
IP: 209.179.227.128

O man!, If I woke up for work when I was supposed to I would have made it, o well
Babs
Monday, February 9, 2004 09:10:47 AM
IP: 68.80.222.40

10th!
Sheltie
Shetland, UK
Monday, February 9, 2004 08:02:50 AM
IP: 81.135.49.126

9th!
Graymonk
Monday, February 9, 2004 07:14:55 AM
IP: 198.164.140.100

8TH!!
matt
Monday, February 9, 2004 05:54:25 AM
IP: 207.230.48.9

CKayote<Lost Race: I think they're 'Lost' as in not found, rather than dead.
Their demise?: I don't think Greg would ever have thought up all the details about them he's not revealing, if they weren't going to be incorporated as more than just history. >

Actually according to ASKGreg they are dead. I recall that he said they were the only race that weren't hanging on anymore.

<Atlantis: When did Greg say Atlantis was sunk? I don't recall seeeing that. >

In response to Zarok's question of when Atlantis sank which he replied was in 9386 BCE, which is pretty close to the traditional date of 9200 BCE(8000 yrs before the Trojan War in 1200 BCE)

<Nokkar's race: When was it established that they're called the N'kai? Missed that too.>

That was one of the few fragments obtained from the prize of the 2198 fill in the blank contest.

DPH<1)Which race evolved first: Nokkar's race or the Lost Race? - I see no way the answer to this question could cause any problems.>

Actually Greg has said that the Nokkar's were older than the Earth itself so by default they are older unless the Lost Race preceded the birth of the Earth itself. It's possible that they are if the Lost Race were a race of elemental like beings.

<My guess is the Lost Race is *involved/connected* with the development of the other 3 races on Earth and possibly other planets. This explains why info on the Lost Race is scarce.>

The gargoyles and fair folk are bother taken from legend so I don't see why the Lost Race couldn't be either. Besides that sounds like a plotline from Stargate SG-1 where the Ancients who built the stargates and a major source of technology were discovered to have been from Earth.

Vash<I bet the answer to the second one will be "I'm not telling", and the last one will be 'Brooklyn'>

I'm betting you are right.
Question
Monday, February 9, 2004 03:01:22 AM
IP: 144.92.164.204

6th in the name of the Fay!

Mooncat
Mooncat
Monday, February 9, 2004 01:43:20 AM
IP: 68.102.17.133

oh well, make that 5th!!
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, February 9, 2004 01:28:20 AM
IP: 204.94.193.43

7th!!
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, February 9, 2004 01:26:32 AM
IP: 204.94.193.43

4th.
Leo
Monday, February 9, 2004 12:41:32 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

3rd
Alex Garg - [alex_garg@yahoo.com]
VA, USA
Monday, February 9, 2004 12:26:51 AM
IP: 216.145.68.130

damnit. 2nd then
zess
Monday, February 9, 2004 12:11:39 AM
IP: 63.150.32.146

-heh-...I actually spent several moments trying to figure out what was wrong with my computer...why the room wasn't loading. I guess I just get to say...1st! :D
zess
Monday, February 9, 2004 12:11:23 AM
IP: 63.150.32.146

1
Z
Monday, February 9, 2004 12:08:05 AM
IP: 67.67.120.140