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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending February 23, 2004

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Talon: Puck stod up to Oberon to his face

Demona Tiana: We're just going to have to plot horrible revenge, huh?

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Sunday, February 22, 2004 10:37:17 PM
IP: 132.170.32.223

GREG BISHANSKY - You wrote: [I'd like to second Airwalker's recommendation of Batman: The Long Halloween and also throw in Batman: Year One, Batman: Birth of the Demon, Batman: The Killing Joke, Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum, all five volumes of "No Man's Land" (though if you can find Contagion, Legacy and Cataclysm since the lead into it, they're good reads), and when Death and the Maidens comes out as a TPB I recommend that too.]

You forgot the sequel to The Long Halloween; what's it called, Dark Victory or something like that?

I have to agree with Year One, The Killing Joke, and No Man's Land; fabulous stories and clear evidence for why Batman and the BatUniverse can hold an audience after more than 60 years. (Although I will say that with No Man's Land you have to suspend disbelief on the premise - even if you can swallow that the government would effectively widthdraw from Gotham and leave the remaining citizens to die which I didn't find that easy at all to believe, there was still the behavior of the JLA which had a pretty half assed reason for not going in and fixing up the city in a half week; but if you ignore that and just focus on the stories and characterization itself then you have some terrific stories.)

Hush is also a good Batman story arc although I'm waiting for a TPB of the entire storyline to be put out; right now only the first half is hardcovered. The Batman as a Vampire Elseworld Bloodstorm is extremely strong. I'd also recommend the following BatUniverse-related stories - the Chuck Dixon run on Nightwing (its at least the first four TPBs of that series - avoid the new writer on the book; she's basically rehashing Frank Millers Born Again storyline with Nightwing instead of DareDevil), Superman/Batman: Generations I and II (Avoid III; everytime Byrne touches any of Kirby's Fourth World properties, the entire story goes to hell), and JLA: The Nail (like all good DCU stories its essentially a Superman/Batman story with Catwoman romance thrown in).

You wrote: [As for other great comic series, Neil Gaiman's Sandman books go without saying, as does it's only successful spin-off "Lucifer". For pure nostalgic fun, Dreamwave's "Transformers" series is good.]

I always forget to mention Sandman; its fantastic although it may be a bit much for someone who just wants to casually pick up a TPB once in a while - it is about 10 volumes. (Did you pick up the Sandman Manga - Death: At Death's Door?) From Transformers I personally enjoyed the Dark Ages mini, you know the one set at the beginning of the Great War - starting out the story with Optimus Prime as a pacifist librarian was interesting. (Although I'd love to see a Beast Wars/Beast Machines comic.)

Lets not forget to mention The Kents, Fables (probably one of the best Vertigo books being published at this moment) Death of Superman/World without Superman (actually I'm not crazy about most of the Death of Superman except for the final couple of pages where he's fighting Doomsday in Metropolis but those last few pages make the TPB worth the money), Jack Kirby's Mister Miracle (what I consider to be Kirby's greatest work), and Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.

You wrote: [I'll recommend "God Loves, Man Kills". They released a TPB with it and it's sequel.]

I remember looking for it way back 10 years ago when it was completely out of print. Its a very strong story but I didn't really like the sequel.

You wrote: [Inferno is also really cool, as are parts of "Fall of the Mutants", and while not too many people like it, I enjoyed "X-Cutioner's Song"]

I have the TPB for Inferno; it was a good story but X-Men tends to be stronger when its not dealing with mystic-based storylines and ideas. X-Cutioner's Song was a good storyline although I don't have the TPB yet; I remember reading it in issue format. Some other good X-Men based TPBs are Asgardian Wars, FF vs X-Men miniseries, and the early Madalyne Pryor related TPB From the Ashes. If you can find it try to also pick up the only New Mutants TPB that was put out; it collected the Demon Bear Saga and was some pretty strong material with some pretty abstract art.

You wrote: ["Mutant Genesis" which has Chris Claremont's last three issues of his first run on X-Men, as well as one of the last decent Magneto stories.]

THE last decent Magneto story. After that he was basically being played as a lunatic; he hasn't recovered since (although it looked like there was a chance back when Joe Kelly first started on X-Men; but he was taken off the books so when the cast of Excalibur was being imported in).

You wrote: [Oh, and definetly read "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen", great, great book. Same goes for "From Hell". Let's just ignore those silly movies based on them ;)]

Don't remind me about the LoEG movie; that was an abomination against both God AND Man. I ask you all for forgiveness for the fact that I actually paid money to see it when it came out.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, February 22, 2004 09:30:52 PM
IP: 12.75.157.82

I think that Oberon's banishment of Puck was based on two factors:

1. It was directly linked into Puck's job of tutoring Alex as part of the settlement with the Xanatoses; he was going to have to stay in the outside world to train Alex anyway, so banishing him was no problem, and:

2. Puck had actually fought against Oberon, something that none of the other Oberati had done (even the Banshee had only refused to return to Avalon when the summons to the Gathering came, but not actually attacked him). Oberon would take that sort of thing *very* seriously.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, February 22, 2004 06:21:03 PM
IP: 171.75.245.160

CKayote: I'm watching the Disney Channel right now. It says "Gargoyles: Thrill of the Hunt" is airing, but it's actually a live-action show called "Even Stevens." What the heck happened? Did the Disney Channel screw up their schedule?
Demona Taina
Sunday, February 22, 2004 06:02:27 PM
IP: 172.168.11.230

Does anyone know why Puck was banished from Avalon? I didn't think his "crimes" to be any worse than Titania's. And then the Banshee, Anansi and the Weird Sisters were not exactly perfect. Is Oberon biased against him because they are not related?
Talon
Sunday, February 22, 2004 04:28:09 PM
IP: 129.234.4.76

TC:Amazon,etc. All those movie-selling websites, one of them will have to have it. If not try Disney's website.

I just wanted to remind everybody that "Thrill of the Hunt" is on Disney at 6:00 Eastern tonight. Everyone who can should watch it. Maybe Disney will respond well if enough people watch it.
At the least it'll be a good way to expose new people to the show.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Sunday, February 22, 2004 01:02:11 PM
IP: 132.170.32.223

I'd like to second Airwalker's recommendation of Batman: The Long Halloween and also throw in Batman: Year One, Batman: Birth of the Demon (this has been out of print for a while, but I managed to track it down and it was worth it), Batman: The Killing Joke, Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum, all five volumes of "No Man's Land" (though if you can find Contagion, Legacy and Cataclysm since the lead into it, they're good reads), and when Death and the Maidens comes out as a TPB I recommend that too.

As for other great comic series, Neil Gaiman's Sandman books go without saying, as does it's only successful spin-off "Lucifer". For pure nostalgic fun, Dreamwave's "Transformers" series is good. Not the first volume, but the second and so far the third. Volume 2 should be out as a TPB (it's titled War and Peace).

And for the X-Men books, I'll recommend "God Loves, Man Kills". They released a TPB with it and it's sequel. The sequel sucks, but the TPB is worth it for the original story. Plus it's the basis for the movie X2. Inferno is also really cool, as are parts of "Fall of the Mutants", and while not too many people like it, I enjoyed "X-Cutioner's Song" (a good look into the mind of a mad man), and "Mutant Genesis" which has Chris Claremont's last three issues of his first run on X-Men, as well as one of the last decent Magneto stories.

Oh, and definetly read "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen", great, great book. Same goes for "From Hell". Let's just ignore those silly movies based on them ;)

Greg Bishansky
Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:40:45 PM
IP: 216.179.1.222

ED - You wrote: [I take it you're not a Grant Morrison fan then? I don't really like the X-Men but I did catch a couple of issues of New X-Men and thought it was pretty good.]

Grant Morrison's work has mixed results for me; I think it depends on the property he's working on. I tend to enjoy more of his DC work although I will give him credit for the whole Xorn deception in his run of X-Men; that was a pretty good suprise.

You wrote: [One of my friends is trying to get me to get the hardbacks which are on sale at Amazon.]

If you are going to spend your money on collections of Morrison's X-Men run then I suggest that you pick up the softcover TPBs; they are considerably cheaper than the hardcover version and its not like there is any difference in terms of material involved.

(Still I wouldn't advice picking up the Morrison's run on X-Men; if you have to pick up an X-book related TPB then pick up X-Statix, Age of Apocalypse, or something from way back in Claremont's run on the book. I'd personally recommend that if you want a good superhero based TPB then get Astro City: Confessions, Kingdom Come, Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, Batman: The Long Halloween, or any of the Teen Titan TPBs. And if your patient, Spider-Girl will be coming out in manga sized TPBs in a month or two.)

You wrote: [The best stuff from Marvel at the moment seems to be Waid's 'Fantastic Four', though I hear great things about 'Supreme Power'.]

Waid's FF is overrated. Yeah, I said it. Someone has to. :-) Honestly FF is the comic that got me into comics and it hasn't really been that good in years. The problem is that they don't want to let development happen. I don't think that anything special has been done in the book for at least 75-90 issues. Hell the way things are going I'm waiting for them to go back to calling Sue Richards the Invisible Girl. They already redid Johnny Storm's growing up storyline - again. They usually go through it every few years. The version with Crystal back in the early 300's was pretty good although I was hoping that they'd let DeFalco's version in the early 400s be the last and finally move on; hell has he even bothered to ask in the last 70 issues about his ex-wife/on-again off-again girlfriend Lyja? And I don't even want to go into the whole Ben Grimm self-hatred thing.

Supreme Power is an interesting book although its basically Marvel's take on JLA. Its well done though and I am curious if they are going to have the book go in the same direction the original Squadron Supreme storyline went in. Right now we're basically in an extended origin/team formation storyline. Its good but it feels like its being written for TPB rather than comic issues. I'll defintely pick up the TPBs for the series.

You wrote: [Did anyone catch 'Abadazad' yet? It's absolutely gorgeous.]

Art is good; story has some problems. I think it needs a few more issues for me to really form an opinion on it.


QUESTION - You wrote: [The guy himself has written some decent stuff, which I'd consider some of the finest hours of television in the land.]

Whedon has done some very good work on television; his comic book work though has been off and on.

You wrote: [It probably is, but Crossgen's situation has been deteriorating for quite a while that I don't think any one of their new stuff is going to last.]

I'm shocked that CrossGen made it this long; I think that if they had come out 12 years ago they would have done great but that entering the market now during the Manga explosion really hurt them. They may hold on with this title but only for the Harry Potter-ish feeling its giving off. That will keep it going for only so long.

You wrote: [Thats pretty much everybody's problem with Austen and I don't see it improving anytime soon.]

I'm not holding out hope of it changing ever. Thats just the way he writes. And its really a pity because he does usually start out strong. Its just stuff like this (among other problems) that drag his work down.

You wrote: [At least he hasn't taken his shitty plots with him to Exiles. The whole thing with Nightcrawler and the church in Uncanny was just weird.]

But he has; the whole Ms. Marvel/Hyperion thing is a symptom of his writing. I don't have anything against him writing her as a psychopath because since he's dealing with an alternate version of the character its perfectly legitimate (hell given her actual background I'm a bit suprised she hasn't completely lost it yet in regular continuity) but then the way he throws Hyperion into the mix...... damn. Thats all I'm going to say about it. Damn, he has serious issues with women.

You wrote: [Wasn't Cyclop's holding Wolverine when he got impaled by the adamantium claws? I don't think he'd be even capable of blasting wolvrine even if his hands were free due to the pain of the claws in his chest.]

He was holding the paralyzed Wolverine up and looking him in the face, screaming and ranting. Then Nocturne takes over Wolverine and animates his body to impale Cyclops in the chest with both sets of claws. Then Cyclops stands there impaled with a look of shock on his face but he's still looking at Wolverine. He could have easily activated his powers and blown Wolverine's head off; he just didn't because the story wanted Wolverine to survive. Thats what makes it so glaring to me. Its not like Cyclops had been blinded or couldn't do anything. Its that the story needed him to not do anything when he could have done something.

You wrote: [The only things I thought was weird was that Colossus was in Weapon X. He wasn't a murderer or a psychopath and that Gambit was Mr. Morality here after he helped Stark take out the Inhumans in their previous mission.]

Depends on the continuity he came from; pretty much since Lobdell's run on X-Men Colossus was being played as someone with deep mental and emotional problems. The character never recovered from that trainwreck of a run on the book. I could see him thrown onto Weapon X.

As for Gambit in this storyline I think that the route that Austen is going for is that Gambit is a nice guy who was put in a bad situation by being placed in Weapon X and that he's not so much evil as he is willing to do whatever it takes to get what he wants which according to this issue is to get home to his version of Storm. Something like a less whining and more ruthless version of Weapon X Colossus.


RAC - You wrote: [What's with x-men killing each other(Wolverine killing Cyclops?]

Exiles is the X-book we are talking about. It basically about random alternate version of X-characters being thrown around alternate Marvel continuities. The whole Wolverine/Cyclops thing we were talking about is a storyline that takes place in an alternate reality where Wolverine has been paralyzed and Cyclops went insane after Jean Grey got killed in some unknown manner. (Its sort of the direction that the X-books might have ended up at if Lobdell had continued his run on the book.)

You wrote: [I don't think the skiff saga was bad at all, despite most of the episodes focused on Goliath, Elisa, Angela, and Bronx. If you saw the skiff saga when it first came on, I might understand why you didn't like it when it kept repeating those episodes for half a year or so.]

I think that the real "problem" with the Avalon Odessey is that the series basically ended a short time after it. We only get something like 10 episodes after Goliath and company return to NYC to the end of the second season. If the third season hadn't been the way it was then it probably would have balanced off the feeling that the Avalon saga was too long. It wasn't that the arc was long, its that the return was too short.


JJ GREGARIUS - You wrote: [I wonder if we'll become like the TaleSpin community: a lot of people joking around, telling fan-fic to eachother, analyzing the series to death, all the while knowing that our beloved series is a good six feet beneath the surface. Reading TaleSpin discussions can be fun, and depressing, at the same time.]

Its possible; although we do have AskGreg which is a way to get some new material if the right question is asked. After all we have gotten information up to this point that didn't appear in the show like the G2198 set-up. If the show never ever makes a return, if we hit the 15 or 20 year mark with nothing we at least have the possibility that Greg might let out much more information. (The G2198 set-up we got in that contest a few years back, it would be nice to see something along those lines for Timedancer.)

You wrote: [On that note, I still cannot beleve how long ago it was that the Disney Afternoon (TDA) was in existence. As bizarre as it may seem, that block of programming formed my ideas of what "modern" Disney was about, even more so than Disney's animated movies of the time (which I loved, BTW).]

Yeah it has been a long time; I still remember sitting the entire summer watching the countdown to Darkwing Duck way back in, was it 1992?! The end of the Disney Afternoon stood as a signal, ending pretty much an entire era of afternoon animated programming. I think that when it ended, when there was no longer a block of time for the other channels to have to compete with, that this began the downfall of animation on Network TV. (At least we have Cartoon Network, Toonami, and now Adult Swim.)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:19:59 PM
IP: 12.75.155.183

JJ Gregarius: [If the DVD effort fails>> I wonder if we'll become like the TaleSpin community: a lot of people joking around, telling fan-fic to eachother, analyzing the series to death, all the while knowing that our beloved series is a good six feet beneath the surface.]

I hope no one takes this too badly. (Though I know some of you may have very violent reactions. I am mentally preparing myself for the onslaught.) Just my two cents worth coming up...

I "discovered" Gargoyles on the 'net whilst bored (was searching for something else). This was more than a year ago. I haven't been able to watch the show anywhere, as I don't have a cable subscription. As a result, I can't give my best thoughts on most of the discussions going on around here relating to the plot or the animation or the voice actors (given my knowledge of everything "Gargoyles" is limited to fansites, a posting of the dialog, a few audio and video clips on the 'net, and Ask Greg).

I've been intentionally resisting visiting forums and message boards for a long time since I've had past experiences with these: most of the forum veterans aren't exactly welcoming to newbies or to people with different viewpoints. (I was, and still am, very much into computer gaming with Quake.) I always thought that people who populated gaming forums were "kooky", in the way that they analyzed the gameplay "to death", so to speak. (Of course, computer gaming is not without the tradition of trash talking, so one had to bear with that, too.)

Though I really like Quake, I tend to shy away from forums that are populated by Quake-philes that do nothing more than brag and talk gameplay, and whine when a software patch changes the game physics a tiny bit. Though I really like programming, I also shy away from forums that bash other people because of the choice of programming languages or operating systems they use.

To the point: Though I like Gargoyles, an outsider may be very intimidated by our forum and comment room due to past experiences with these. Outsiders often view sci-fi conventions as a "Gathering of the Geeks" (sorry about that, I know it is a very bad pun), with a sharp "get a life" aimed at the die-hard fans. Some of us may laugh or find absurd other fandoms, only to find out that they are also laughing at us.

What I want: Status quo, nothing else. Just wanted to get that out of the way. I'm actually willing to go abroad just to get the Gargoyles DVD ("See how kooky this guy is?"), if it doesn't end up on the shelves here. Alternatively, could I ask one of you to FedEx it here to the Philippines? (Though I wonder how I'll pay that unlikely fellow...)
TC
Sunday, February 22, 2004 06:55:46 AM
IP: 203.167.26.171

Mooncat>> When Spacebabie mentioned Gargoyles on USA, I believe she meant in the past.

If the DVD effort fails>> I wonder if we'll become like the TaleSpin community: a lot of people joking around, telling fan-fic to eachother, analyzing the series to death, all the while knowing that our beloved series is a good six feet beneath the surface. Reading TaleSpin discussions can be fun, and depressing, at the same time.

In case you're curious, http://fly.to/highflight has a TaleSpin message board. Just peruse it, and see what I mean. (You can click on my name to go to the site)

On that note, I still cannot beleve how long ago it was that the Disney Afternoon (TDA) was in existence. As bizarre as it may seem, that block of programming formed my ideas of what "modern" Disney was about, even more so than Disney's animated movies of the time (which I loved, BTW). It's kinda depressing that, since most of the personnel involved with TDA have left, the TDA shows have almost no impact on Disney's present or future...
...with the possible exception of Gargoyles, of course >:-).

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Sunday, February 22, 2004 02:35:32 AM
IP: 65.244.173.219

Sorry for double post

BrooklynX:

Greg Weisman only wrote the first episode for Goliath Chronicles. He had no influence or worked on the rest of the twelve episodes, which were a poorer quality than the first two seasons of Gargoyles.

I don't think the skiff saga was bad at all, despite most of the episodes focused on Goliath, Elisa, Angela, and Bronx. If you saw the skiff saga when it first came on, I might understand why you didn't like it when it kept repeating those episodes for half a year or so. Greg wrote the fiasco for that somewhere in the archives but here's the gist of it. Disney(or Bueno Vista, don't recall), wanted to know how many episodes Greg could do. Greg ask how many they wanted and they said 52, which Greg basically said was near impossible without a ton of re-runs. So the higher ups got ticked and said just make 9 episodes. So when Greg got all the resources ready to make JUST 9 episodes, higher ups came back and told him to do 13. A little upset because he know had to get 13 episodes done in a 9 episode work period, Greg said it could still be done without re-runs. A few days later, higher ups said to get 26 done. Again, Greg's team were geared to do 13, not 26. So they had to re-organized the schedult to complete 26 episodes in a timely fashion, but Greg said it can be doable but would be tight. Then a week or so later, higher ups wanted 52 episodes now. While Greg was given the resources to do all 52, the first month or two used for planning when all the episodes were going to be done got shot to pieces. Greg wasn't going to get all the episodes done quickly enough to prevent re-runs, which happened during the skiff saga.

Like I said, the skiff saga was still good, it just lasted half a year first time it aired. Probably made a lot of people wonder when the heck new episodes were going to come...

Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Saturday, February 21, 2004 11:29:36 PM
IP: 24.194.47.225

Huh?!? What's with x-men killing each other(Wolverine killing Cyclops?)? Doesn't sound like the x-men I remember...

If it's some new version x-men on comic book, sounds like whoever thought of that went off the deep end...

To bed I go...

Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Saturday, February 21, 2004 11:16:12 PM
IP: 24.194.47.225

Ed<Don't reckon Whedon will improve things: his shock-value-only stylings wore thin on his tv shows and will probably not work in comics if he stays for longer than a few issues.>

He's hardly all "shock value". The guy himself has written some decent stuff, which I'd consider some of the finest hours of television in the land. Besides his work on the Fray comic proves that he can do a fine job.

<Did anyone catch 'Abadazad' yet? It's absolutely gorgeous.>

It probably is, but Crossgen's situation has been deteriorating for quite a while that I don't think any one of their new stuff is going to last.

Airwalker< The problem is more in execution more than anything else. And for some damn reason he seems to be under the impression that the only use for women are to be nagging rescue fodder, or just a sexual distraction/release for whoever the main character is.>

Thats pretty much everybody's problem with Austen and I don't see it improving anytime soon. At least he hasn't taken his shitty plots with him to Exiles. The whole thing with Nightcrawler and the church in Uncanny was just weird.

<In fact my main problem with the story was the ending between Wolverine and Cyclops. The way Nocturne had Wolverine kill Cyclops left a wide opening for Cyclops to be able to blast Wolverine and kill him as a last shot at revenge. After all his eyes aren't damaged and Cyclops is trained enough that even in a ranting insane state, that he could blast Wolverine's head off while being impaled by him.>

Wasn't Cyclop's holding Wolverine when he got impaled by the adamantium claws? I don't think he'd be even capable of blasting wolvrine even if his hands were free due to the pain of the claws in his chest.

Lynati<Well, the current story-sets seem pretty strong; the 3-parter that focused on the "Weapon X" Exiles was dark and frikkin' ...okay, I found it disturbing, which I'm sure it was meant to be.>

The only things I thought was weird was that Colossus was in Weapon X. He wasn't a murderer or a psychopath and that Gambit was Mr. Morality here after he helped Stark take out the Inhumans in their previous mission.

<Oh, and the event that, uh, preceded Blink's recent return was unexpected. (I didn't think they'd do that...) >

Yeah caught me by suprise. Thought it was going to be Mimic until the third issue when Sunfire was the one on the cover.

<However, I will say that the dialogue/set-up for before it is revealed that it was her is weak. >

The stuff was based on Winnick's scripts that he left behind when he went to DC. No doubt the dialogue would have been polished if Winnick had stayed on board to oversee the story.

Question
Saturday, February 21, 2004 08:48:48 PM
IP: 144.92.164.199

Question: Heh, I take it you're not a Grant Morrison fan then? I don't really like the X-Men but I did catch a couple of issues of New X-Men and thought it was pretty good. One of my friends is trying to get me to get the hardbacks which are on sale at Amazon. Don't reckon Whedon will improve things: his shock-value-only stylings wore thin on his tv shows and will probably not work in comics if he stays for longer than a few issues. I tend to agree with Millar though. He did some work on some of the comics I read here growing up years ago and I didn't like him on those either.

The best stuff from Marvel at the moment seems to be Waid's 'Fantastic Four', though I hear great things about 'Supreme Power'.

Did anyone catch 'Abadazad' yet? It's absolutely gorgeous.

Ed
Saturday, February 21, 2004 04:31:17 PM
IP: 131.111.8.103

LYNATI - You wrote: [Well, the current story-sets seem pretty strong; the 3-parter that focused on the "Weapon X" Exiles was dark and frikkin' ...okay, I found it disturbing, which I'm sure it was meant to be.]

The thing about Chuck Austen (he wrote the Weapon X story that introduced Hyperion and he is writing the current story arc) is that generally there are bits of good ideas in his stories and sometimes they do start off well. The problem is more in execution more than anything else. And for some damn reason he seems to be under the impression that the only use for women are to be nagging rescue fodder, or just a sexual distraction/release for whoever the main character is. (Its not as strong in Exiles as it is in his run of Uncanny X-men but it still lurking in the corners. The Blink/Mimic relationship doesn't fit that mainly because most of Blink's interaction with Mimic is not actual story material that Austen came up with but just stuff that he is moving along; the original writer introduced and developed that relationship.)

You wrote: [and now they are focusing on Nocturne, my current favorite character of the series.]

Just so its made clear, the Nocturne arc was not written by Chuck Austen and it was a pretty strong story. The writer had obviously developed that specific universe pretty well from its humble beginnings back as a one page what if in X-Men: Millenial Visions. (In fact my main problem with the story was the ending between Wolverine and Cyclops. The way Nocturne had Wolverine kill Cyclops left a wide opening for Cyclops to be able to blast Wolverine and kill him as a last shot at revenge. After all his eyes aren't damaged and Cyclops is trained enough that even in a ranting insane state, that he could blast Wolverine's head off while being impaled by him.)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, February 20, 2004 09:56:22 PM
IP: 12.75.158.85

Bad Brook/XT -- Uh... could you NOT refer to Japanese people as "Japs" or the language as "jap" ??? Those are derogatory terms and highly offensive.

Spacebabie -- Gargoyles on USA? Currently Ooo!!! Interesting! I remember catching Gargoyles on USA right before it was taken off, and catching most of the end of second season there.

Would comment more on the comic book topic, but gotta jet.

later
MC


Mooncat
pFriday, February 20, 2004 06:09:59 PM
IP: 68.102.17.133

Bad Brooklyn>>> Are you sure you don't mean the USA network? I remembered it being on around late 1997 before USA let go of it's cartoon express.

Eep...gotta go Au Gratin the taters.

Spacebabie
Friday, February 20, 2004 04:49:08 PM
IP: 4.72.104.104

I don't know what this means, if anything, but Disney Channel (not Toon Disney) has a Gargoyles episode on the schedule for Sunday at 6pm. I searched the schedule for the next two weeks, and it's just the one episode ("Thrill of the Hunt") one time only. It makes one curious.


Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
Friday, February 20, 2004 01:04:40 PM
IP: 134.215.241.134

Bad Brook/XT> I'd like to clarify something for you. Gargoyles has never been on the WB network. But it may have been on a WB affiliated station. Here's the difference.
Every station is affiliated with a network (ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, WB, UPN) but that network does not fill 24 hours of every day. The individual stations are left to fill some time themselves. That's where syndication comes in. Gargoyles was syndicated to whatever local stations wanted it and had time to fill. In your town, it was a WB affiliate that bought Gargoyles. Where I live, it was a Fox affiliate.
That changed in the third season (The Goliath Chronicles) when Disney put the show on its ABC network.
I hope this helps. I tried to be basic to avoid confusion; sorry if it came off as condescending.

Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
Friday, February 20, 2004 10:05:26 AM
IP: 134.215.241.134

The Question>Thanks for ansering all my questions man. I just wish the show was still going. I watch it all the time in toon disny. But it was on WB don't you remember in 1994 man I saw the 1st episodes when it came out. They where on channal 7 if I remember right... some pics on the net still have there logo on them so what's up with that, and do you remember the episode where Elesa got shot by Broodway.

WB showed the episode so why can't disny? How did WB even get gargoyles? And why are the episodes so good until the skiff saga not including Future Tence because that's one of the best episode for Brooklyn fans out there. The Skiff sagas sucked and the Goliath saga too. Man did Greg not do those after the 1st session or the Skiff session?

That's about the same time when BW stoped showing it and started showing gargoyles on disny, I don't know? Just because the japs made the show does not mean its an anime. Cartoons are regarded for little kids and consitered crap like pokymon or the power... (powder) puff girls. Anime is muture or high quality animation or anime like cowboy bebop, outlaw star, InuYansha, Slayers and stuff like that.

Those are some of my favs and i like alot of anime. Gargoyles is one of them but it was originaly aimed to kids but we have people here likeing it that are even in there 50's witch tells you it was that good for a show. I liked the comics too... they showed some muture semes in that one. Remember Venus and some other stuff?

(Venus and Demona looked quite good and somewhat realistic in the comics.) Imagin if that quality anime in the comics were to be put in a new gargoyles show... I would love that. Oh and if Marval can atleast make it a little muture like they did, then I would like to see something atleast that muture tho'

I would like to see something atleast rated TV14 on the adult swim that was gargoyles. It would mean we could see our fav gargoyle characters like how they are in our fan-fic... ua some R rated stuff too if they really wanted to. But thats not just the point.

We could see more muturely made plots set for us ageing fans and not the kids. Will we just be stuck with the fan-fic forever or will our gargoyles come back atleast hopefuly in a comic with a more muture look. I really would like that eather way but I still think it would be better animated then on a page.

I like to see it more then read it. Then again most of the time when I'm watching slayers i have to read the text because they talk in "jap" and i don't speak japineze but luckly I can read fast or speed read and yes I love to read, but more so to see it, it just gets you more into the story then haveing to imagin it. Most people lose there imagenations when they get older sadly and they forget what it is to be a kid, I hope I never do because I have a good one, i hope nobody does but I guess it happens to some of the best of us right? Well I'll get the gargoyles DVD's for shoure... So if gargoyles ever goes off air (But hopefuly not) I'll have the shows forever. I really hope that show just suddenly comes back. I love it to much, for all garg fans, hope it comes back, Gargoyles!

I'm done here, for now!

Bad Brook/XT
Friday, February 20, 2004 05:47:36 AM
IP: 63.189.200.241

[Exiles did have some good material on it but the future of the book is in question given that the main writer left for DC and they have now nothing but fill-in writers (i.e. Chuck Austen) until the X-Men Reloaded event in the summer. ]

Well, the current story-sets seem pretty strong; the 3-parter that focused on the "Weapon X" Exiles was dark and frikkin' ...okay, I found it disturbing, which I'm sure it was meant to be. and now they are focusing on Nocturne, my current favorite character of the series.
Oh, and the event that, uh, preceded Blink's recent return was unexpected. (I didn't think they'd do that...)
However, I will say that the dialogue/set-up for before it is revealed that it was her is weak.

Lynati
Friday, February 20, 2004 01:03:41 AM
IP: 64.216.140.221

CKAYOTE - You wrote: [Around 94 the focus was young males. Now it's young females (turn on Disney channel and tell me I'm wrong). All the 10-yr-old boys are watching Spongebob on Nick.]

The real problem is that when it comes to thinking about programming, everyone has an either/or attitude; either a male audience or a female audience. How about making shows to try and get all parts of the audience? (And by the way I'm not complaining about the shift towards trying to get girls audience - in Manga terms, its driving all the Shojou manga that's being brought over; and as a fan of several shojou series, well its all good... :-) )


TODD - You wrote: [Pity that I don't have a DVD player (and am unlikely to purchase one in the near future);]

You could always get a DVD-rom for your computer; that way your able to watch some DVDs. (There are tons of great series that are coming out on DVD now; it would be a shame to miss out on all of them.)

You wrote: [I'm going to have to focus on encouraging others to buy the Gargoyles DVD when it comes out rather than buying it myself.]

You could still buy yourself a set just to hold onto - eventually you probably will get a DVD player. Its pretty much slowly replacing the VCR. (As soon as DVD recorders come down in price, the VCR will be completely history.)


QUESTION - You wrote: [More reliance on tpb sales maybe, but I don't see it taking over entirely. Comic book sales are still decent for them to justify it right now. Besides it's still a good forum as someone once pointed out to test market new concepts, ideas and characters.]

True; the real problem with the format is the price. Back when I first started collecting, comics were a buck; in fact I remember when they went up to 1.25, and being all upset about it. Now its something like 3-5 dollars depending on the issue. The format doesn't justify the price. I could accept it at 2 dollars but more than that for a pamphlet just doesn't sit right with me. I'd rather read it in the store.

You wrote: [Buts thats only because there hasn't been any decent talent writing the books for awhile. Most of the good writers avoid the franchise and instead Quesada has two overpaid brits with a taste for drug use writing the books along with a burnt out Claremont and Austen]

Doesn't Chuck Austen pretty much write almost all the books in the Marvel Universe? As for Morrison and Millar, its not that everything they've done is not good. I liked Morrison's Animal Man and Rock of Ages in JLA; and I'll probably pick up his run on Doom Patrol. But I just don't like what he's doing now, particularly on X-Men. As for Millar, he tends to takes everything he does to such an incredible extreme that it becomes difficult to sit and read. (Just look at Ultimate Magneto or the entire run he had on Authority.)

You wrote: [I mean the main titles are shit, but look at some of the spinoff material like Exile.]

Exiles did have some good material on it but the future of the book is in question given that the main writer left for DC and they have now nothing but fill-in writers (i.e. Chuck Austen) until the X-Men Reloaded event in the summer.

You wrote: [But from what I've seen of hawkwoman in the new Hawkman comic I don't think they're similar at all.]

Animated JLA Hawkgirl is nothing like the Hawkgirl in the current Hawkman comic. The HawkWoman character I was talking about was in the old HawkWorld series back in the late 80s-early 90s. The current Hawkgirl in the JSA and Hawkman comics isn't Shaera Thall - its the reincarnation of some Egyptian Princess who is preordained to fall in love with Hawkman Carter Hall and who is desperately trying to fight that. (Basically animated Hawkgirl is the Thanegarian Shaera Thall HawkWoman with the current JSA Hawkgirl costume and wings.)

You wrote: [Haven't read Hawkworld, but Ostrander's stuff is just too preachy in my opinion]

The HawkWorld issues are pretty hard to find; I managed to find most but not all of the series at a pretty good comic shop in NYC. As for Ostrander, I haven't really read his recent stuff (outside of some issues of Martian Manhunter which varied - it had some good arcs but started to wander the last couple of issues) but I loved his work on Spectre. (It helped that I loved Tom Mandrakes art on the series; it just fit so well.)

You wrote: [The issues dealing with the series mythology were great, but the other stuff like the National Interest Arc wasn't.]

The National Interest did stretch a bit; its not exactly my favorite arc of the series. But that so so arc was followed by two extremely strong arcs that finished up the series and put Jim Corrigan to rest after 50 years in a manner that was consistant with the character growth he went through in the entire series. I'd still love to see this entire series get TPB. If they can TPB the old George Perez Wonder Woman issues then they could get around to this series.

You wrote: [Right now the market is filled with shitty japanese cartoons(Pokemon, YuGiOh) and Evolution which did well couldn't even get more episodes than gargoyles before it got canned.]

That's mainly on network TV; cable is getting all the good anime series. After all I just saw the Cowboy Bebop Movie and Blood the Last Vampire just a few weeks ago on the Action Channel.

You wrote: [I think Gargoyles as a comic book series stands the best chance of surviving. Comic sales aren't as good as before, but I think there is still strong enough of a fan base to support a gargoyles comic or any of its potential spinoffs.]

Only if its advertised properly. And even then only if DC does it since they put out most of their series at a loss (particularly Vertigo series).

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, February 19, 2004 11:45:17 PM
IP: 12.75.155.177

Whenever I mention Gargoyles at conventions (which I do as often as possible, most recently when I 'fessed up and outed myself on a panel on fanfiction), I always hear a lot of "oh, yeah!" and "I remember that show, that was a cool show!" and the like.

Comic books > enh ... if the show only came back in a comic book format, I for one would buy 'em but not without a twinge of disappointment; for me, the talent of the voice actors and the quality of the animation had a lot to do with it too. Which is in no way meant to disparage Greg's awesome storytelling abilities, let me hasten to say! I'm just real picky and limited in my tastes of art, and gave up reading many comic books because the style of art changed to something I didn't like.

Anyone been watching the Shakespeare show Wednesdays on PBS, btw? Sort of a historical documentary about his life and work. Been pretty interesting so far.

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Thursday, February 19, 2004 07:07:23 PM
IP: 208.187.159.88

i'll be pretty dissapointed in anyone in the fandom who does not buy at least copy of the DVD. i know thats harsh, but if you are willing to participate in the fandom and if you claim to be a fan of the show, you'll slap down however much the DVD is and if nothing else, keep it as a collectible. i can understand if you have no money, but i don't think thats the case for most of the fandom. if someone can afford to go to the Gathering, they can certaintly afford the DVD which will probably have more of an impact of Disney than the attendance at the Gathering. in fact, if it came down to choosing between the DVD and the Gathering this year, i'd say buy a few of the DVDs. a purchase will have more of an impact on Disney than a fan club head count. depending on my money situation when the DVD comes out i'm sure i'll buy at least one.
the DVD coming out may be the biggest (and the last) oppurtunity we have to get Gargoyles back.
support the cause!

matt
Thursday, February 19, 2004 04:08:34 PM
IP: 216.178.8.61

Gargoyles and Family Guy -- I ***seriously*** doubt Gargoyles sales will be anywhere as high as Family Guy. For one thing, Family Guy is on Cartoon Network and many other Cable Channels daily, and Gargoyles is on one of the super premium channels you can only get if you have digital cable or satellite, not part of regular cable or the normal cable tiers.

If Disney wants the series to sell, it has to promote it, not just throw it out and hope nostalgia and word of mouth will do all the work for them.

They need to show it on the regular Disney Channel at a time regular kids are allowed to watch tv, not stuck at 11pm or 2am, otherwise they are cutting off a huge chunk of the market. Most of the kids that would buy the series or parents that would buy the series for their kids aren't going to know the DVDs are coming out. There has been NO commercials or in house promotion for the series at all so far, there is no building buzz aside from the niche fandom on the internet, and it's supposed to come out this year?

I'll of course buy my set and encourage others to do the same and buy as many as I can as gifts for friends this year... but I doubt there will be the sales needed to create a new series, because Gargoyles is getting zilch for build up exposure and show time. Look at all those poor kids at Ask Greg who keep asking what channel it's on? It's not just because they are little kids or a shade less than bright, it's because they honestly can't get the show unless their parents have that expensive premium channel tier you can only get through digital/satellite. Believe it or not, that is a rarified luxury.

Sales to people new to the show will be seriously curtailed because only a small population of people are being exposed to the show right now. Disney has ABC, it has the perfect venue for running shows like Gargoyles in the same block it runs Kim Possible, and introducing it to a fresh audience if it wanted to. Fantasy is hot right now. Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, etc, Gargoyles could be introduced to a very favorable market right now if it got halfway decent promotion.

When I had Digital cable, I was the ONLY person in my wide range of friends who got it. I got it ONLY because a special promotion let me try it cheaply for a six month time and I as a longtime toon fan girl specifically wanted to see the Gargoyles series which I already knew about through online study of the show. I dropped Digital cable recently, because Toon Disney was the only channel I was watching on it and I already taped all the Garg eps, so there was no good reason to keep spending extra dough every month. Right now of all my friends only one bothers with Digital Cable, and only to get Tech TV. Most of those who watch tv don't need digital, because SciFi and Cartoon Network are available on the regular cable tiers. My monthly cable bill dropped 15 bucks a month (from 100 bucks to 85 bucks a month) when I got rid of digital cable tv, and I don't need the digital box that screwed me over when it came to timed recordings on vcr and dvd.

The power of exposure is pretty potent in sales. I really worry about Gargoyles sales since it's going to depend almost solely on word of mouth from a small niche fan base. It's a fantastic fanbase, one of the best organized I've ever seen, but it's still small. O_o ... None of my many local sf/fantasy fan friends are into gargoyles like I am, and a lot of them have kids right now who have never seen the show. I will be giving gift packs to my friends who are parents when the dvds come out... but my wallet will only stretch to a few sets, and that's with factoring in everything as christmas/b-day presents. My friends are going to be giving me "the look" this year because I usually give them something aimed directly at their personal tastes. I'm hoping the ones with kids will watch it with their families and appreciate the gesture. *fingers crossing*

Mooncat


Mooncat
Thursday, February 19, 2004 10:36:50 AM
IP: 68.102.17.133

Greg Bishansky>> "Oh, there are definetly many closet fans around, or people who just remember the series fondly. [retelling of events]"

On the train up to NYC the person sitting next to me asked why I was going up there. When I told him he recalled the show with great detail even though he hadn't seen it since '96 (I was able to gather that his favorite episodes were the "City of Stone" mini series).

In leaving the con, a guy in the elevator expressed hope that our efforts would bring the show back.

*wonders why the above events were left out of his Gathering journal*

And yesterday I was wearing the OtherCon shirt and a girl stopped me to ask, "I thought Brooklyn was red?"

So there's no doubt in my mind that getting people outside the fandom will be a problem - finding them might be, but convincing them to make the purchase shouldn't.

Rac>> "Any ideas on methods that will not appear to be really annoying or relevent places to pitch the DVDs? Or how to get new people into the series and somehow overcome that stigma of the world tour lasting for half a year or so/Goliath Chronicles was not lead by the original creator?"

Well pouncing on people at random probably isn't the best way to go about the task. What I've been doing to some success is just slipping it in whenever the opportunity arises.

My English professor last semester is a huge Trek fan (and a bigger fan of Marina Sirtis). So in casual conversation about Sirtis and her work I slipped in, "You know, Marina had another really great spot on this show..." and my professor became pretty enthusiastic about buying a DVD or two (for family).

At lunch the other day I overheard a group of people talking about the Comcast-Disney relationship and what it would take to get Disney back on track. I sat down and said, "Well I don't know about the business aspect, but I remember when Disney was really on the ball there was this show..." and the conversation became very enthusiastically about Gargoyles.

So basically I recommend keeping an open ear to pick up on opportunities to slip in the DVD. I'm sure that to a few people it'll come off as weird, but hopefully to more it sounds like a good pre-Christmas purchase. Also, if you have any Gargoyles paraphernalia, I recommend wearing it extensively around your normal hang-outs (if you aren't already, why not?!?) and usually that will incite conversation in which you can plug the DVD.

So for now be - I don't know - "aggressively casual" about inciting support. As the DVD release approaches, efforts can be stepped up.

As for getting over the stigma of TGC: just be straightforward with it "It's not canon, it's crap. Don't watch it." It's unfortunate but a friend I might be bringing to this year's Gathering was first exposed to Gargoyles via TGC (and as a result, he never understood why I liked the show). It's taken months of de/reprogramming, but I think I have brought him to the light.

And for the World Tour episodes: keep in mind that they lasted half a year *for us* because we had to wait for episodes on a weekly basis. On a DVD it won't be more than a couple of hours (and I believe Toon Disney plows through it in about two weeks).

Alex Garg
VA, USA
Thursday, February 19, 2004 10:33:47 AM
IP: 216.145.68.130

Brooklyn<Dude, Marval made about 10 or 20 comics on the show but it failed!>

It didn't fail. It was cancelled due to major restructuring within marvel during the time.

<Why couldn't they make it a more serious anime.>

It's already an anime since many of its episodes were made in japan.

< Gargoyles is one of those rare shows that is a cartoon/anime>

Yes and it can be fine tuned for a comics format or a novels format.

<and I think it should be made into a anime like marval tried to with it's comics, but it's just mobody bought them or they did not have enough funding on the project or something. >

The japanese are not known for adapting foreign comics. The only time they did I recall was for a live action spider-man and there they added a giant robot and car. Also gargoyles are written for american sensibilities. If it was written by the Japanese all the gargoyles would be dead at the end of the series and the steel clan would be giant robots and the garg helicopter would still be there.

<Man Disny is so rich I don't know why they could not bring it back as a better animated show. >

Profit returns doesn't justify it. As Greg said they don't have infintite resources. If they did then ABC would be doing a lot better.

<And they are not doing anything with it... Why don't they just give it back to WB where it was 1st created or was it fox?>

It was created in Disney's own offices in LA. WB&Fox had nothing to do with it. Greg personally supervised it.
WB was barely a blip on the screen.
<Well my point is that if disny never got there hands on gargoyles then maybe it would still be on and WB/Fox would be making new episodes, you know? I know its on Toon disny but no new episodes.>

No it wouldn't. It would have been cancelled a long time ago in favor of either Power Rangers or Pokemon. Both of
which are cheaper to produce.

< Man they never finished it well I mean they finished it far too quickly thanks to that damn power rangers show. It just plan sucks compared to gargoyles and its the same thing over and over again.>

But it was extremely profitable and considerably cheaper than gargoyle. Much of the footage was purchased from the japanese at very low rates and spliced in with cheap american and later australian footage.

<Oh 1st we'll have dinisore meches... then lets have meches in space... No lets have ninja meches... then dinisore meches all over again.>

Thats because each season derived its source material from a different japanese show since they had a new power rangers show each year in japan.

<God Damn It can't they think of something new. It really gets on my nerves to see a better show like gargoyles be beaten over a cheaply mad pice of shit like Power Bastards! Can anybody tell me how this happened? >

Simple Power Rangers was considerably cheaper. For gargoyles they hired some of the best writers in the field such as Reaves and Bates along with high quality voice actors from Trek and had animators from japan animating some of it. Power Rangers however emphasized on using the least money possible. Many of the actors had no experience and were just plain bad and the producers and writers were mostly newcomers who worked cheap or free.

The Question
Thursday, February 19, 2004 06:29:50 AM
IP: 144.92.164.199

Dude, Marval made about 10 or 20 comics on the show but it failed! Why couldn't they make it a more serious anime... Gargoyles is one of those rare shows that is a cartoon/anime and I think it should be made into a anime like marval tried to with it's comics, but it's just mobody bought them or they did not have enough funding on the project or something. Man Disny is so rich I don't know why they could not bring it back as a better animated show. And they are not doing anything with it... Why don't they just give it back to WB where it was 1st created or was it fox? Well my point is that if disny never got there hands on gargoyles then maybe it would still be on and WB/Fox would be making new episodes, you know? I know its on Toon disny but no new episodes... Man they never finished it well I mean they finished it far too quickly thanks to that damn power rangers show. It just plan sucks compared to gargoyles and its the same thing over and over again. Oh 1st we'll have dinisore meches... then lets have meches in space... No lets have ninja meches... then dinisore meches all over again. God Damn It can't they think of something new. It really gets on my nerves to see a better show like gargoyles be beaten over a cheaply mad pice of shit like Power Bastards! Can anybody tell me how this happened?

I am done here' for now!

Bad Brook/XT
Thursday, February 19, 2004 05:19:13 AM
IP: 63.189.200.73

What about some Gargoyles crossovers on one of Disney's current series like what almost happened on Team Atlantis?
Boba Fett - [jangosboy@aol.com]
Valencia, CA
Thursday, February 19, 2004 03:06:14 AM
IP: 205.188.209.40

Oh, there are definetly many closet fans around, or people who just remember the series fondly.

For example at G2003, when Aaron and I were taking care of paying off the hotel, there was a woman who worked in the office and she remembered the series and thought it was really great.

And later at some point, some hotel clerks came up and asked me and a couple other people I was sitting with in the lobby (I think it was Revel and/or Dreamie) the names of Hudson and the Trio, cause they weren't sure, but they had a bet going on apparantly.

So yeah, they exist. There was a huge comic con across the street, and my brother ran into Brian Michael Bendis (who's writing Ultimate Spider-man) in an elevator(my bro is a fan) and Bendis noticed our small con and mentioned he thought "Gargoyles" was a great series.

So yeah, get the word out, but I also think a lot of people will come across it also. Personally, I hope it's placed in the anime section of the various Suncoasts and other stores rather than the Children's section. I mean, if G1 Transformers is put in the anime section, why not "Gargoyles"?

Greg Bishansky
Thursday, February 19, 2004 01:28:18 AM
IP: 216.179.1.222

Airwalker<Its not that I know that much about the comic industry - I could be entirely wrong on the long term viability of comics as they are. After all they have hung on this long. But logically it looks like the field is giving way to GN/TradePaperbacks outside of Iconic DC Characters. >

More reliance on tpb sales maybe, but I don't see it taking over entirely. Comic book sales are still decent for them to justify it right now. Besides it's still a good forum as someone once pointed out to test market new concepts, ideas and characters.

<Otherwise I pretty much don't buy Marvel that much anymore - X-Men get on my damn nerves in both their regular and Ultimate versions>

Buts thats only because there hasn't been any decent talent writing the books for awhile. Most of the good writers avoid the franchise and instead Quesada has two overpaid brits with a taste for drug use writing the books along with a burnt out Claremont and Austen who probably has photos of Quesada committing indecent acts. I mean the main titles are shit, but look at some of the spinoff material like Exile. Hopefully we'll get an injection of fresh blood once Joss Whedon starts writing.

<HawkWoman is a good example - and yes I know that they call her Hawkgirl but I'm someone who read John Ostranders Hawkworld that basically developed the comic Shaera Thall and I'll stick with the reasons she gave there for not calling herself Hawkgirl when it was suggested to her.>

I thought the Hawkgirl in JLA was supposedly more of Timm's original creation by combining the design for the silver age Hawkgirl along with the basic Xena Warrior Princess character. But from what I've seen of hawkwoman in the new Hawkman comic I don't think they're similar at all.

<By the way HawkWorld and Ostranders Spector were two other series that are crying out for TPB collections. They had fabulous stories that deserve to be preserved>

Haven't read Hawkworld, but Ostrander's stuff is just too preachy in my opinion especially his recent fillins for Aquaman and much of his Spectre. The issues dealing with the series mythology were great, but the other stuff like the National Interest Arc wasn't. I for one would rather recommend Ostrander's Star Wars: Republic comic. Great stuff and better written than the movies in my opinion.
And on another note Loeb just killed off Cary Bates and Greg Weisman's Captain Atom in the pages of Batman&Superman. The only good thing thats coming out of this is that he doesn't have to be degraded further by Giffen in His Formely Justice League sequel.

Battle Beast<Look at FAMILY GUY. The show was CANCELLED in 2002, and is now (unofficially, but close enough for JAZZ) comming back due to the DVD sales. Volume one (seasons 1 & 2) have sold over 1,000,000 copies (fourth best selling DVD all time) and volume three (season 3) has sold over 600,000 copies.>

Yeah, but I don't think gargoyles DVDs will generates the sales necessary to convince Disney to restore the show. And if it comes back how do we know it won't face the same fate again. Right now the market is filled with shitty japanese cartoons(Pokemon, YuGiOh) and Evolution which did well couldn't even get more episodes than gargoyles before it got canned.

I think Gargoyles as a comic book series stands the best chance of surviving. Comic sales aren't as good as before, but I think there is still strong enough of a fan base to support a gargoyles comic or any of its potential spinoffs.

Question
Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:57:11 AM
IP: 144.92.164.199

THE DVD> I intend to buy three copies; two for me and one for a friend who won't buy one himself.

Todd> Like Ed said, (excuse the punn Ed ;) ) buy one tweo untill you get a DVD. Hey,. I bought "Transformers: The Movie" A year and a half before I bought a DVD palyer.

But, as a frequent lurker to ultimatedisney.com, which deals in Disney DVDs, they have listed practically EVERY DVD realese from now untill september with no mention of Gargoyles. They ahve listed several TV series as well, and the most notable is Boy Meets World.

So when every they come out, we must buy IN DROVES.

Look at FAMILY GUY. The show was CANCELLED in 2002, and is now (unofficially, but close enough for JAZZ) comming back due to the DVD sales. Volume one (seasons 1 & 2) have sold over 1,000,000 copies (fourth best selling DVD all time) and volume three (season 3) has sold over 600,000 copies.

But the show is DIFINATLY COMMING BACK. All in part to the DVD sales.

Now, Executives tend to watch what other T.V. Stations are doing. Disney will see that "Family Guy" is comming back and will possibly notice that they have their own DVD which is selling like hot cakes, and may do something about it. Who knows?

That is all I will say

Battle Beast
CanadaThursday, February 19, 2004 12:15:22 AM
IP: 198.53.161.213

Hmmn, so the gist of what's being said is to figure out a way to advertise Gargoyles by word of mouth or through forums or something(especially since we don't know if Disney will give much thought towards advertising it). Since there isn't a definite release date other than Q3 or Q4, might as well start now with spreading the word. Any ideas on methods that will not appear to be really annoying or relevent places to pitch the DVDs? Or how to get new people into the series and somehow overcome that stigma of the world tour lasting for half a year or so/Goliath Chronicles was not lead by the original creator?
Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 11:50:14 PM
IP: 24.194.46.88

Todd: I'd say it's better to buy the DVDs and keep them handy in case you do get a DVD player at some point. For one thing, the DVDs might have gone out of circulation in those far off days and you'd definitely regret it. For another thing, every sale helps. And for another, you've got one to loan around to get people hooked. :)
Ed
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 07:17:21 PM
IP: 131.111.8.101

Pity that I don't have a DVD player (and am unlikely to purchase one in the near future); that being the case, I'm going to have to focus on encouraging others to buy the Gargoyles DVD when it comes out rather than buying it myself.

Incidentally, I don't think that Greg Weisman simply telling the stories on the Internet is a feasible goal, for two reasons:

1. Greg says that he works best on creating a story when it's a case of it being an actual job (with a deadline, a paycheck, etc.), which means that doing it in a more informal format wouldn't work as well.

2. Much of "Gargoyles" came, not from Greg himself, but from the other members of the production team (I know that Michael Reaves, at least, came up with Matt Bluestone and the basic concept for the Illuminati) - and let's not forget that it was one of Greg's bosses who came up with the idea of Goliath getting turned to stone by the Magus at his own request due to his state of near-despair over being all alone (if Greg had done the story on his own, we'd have had the Magus offering to turn Goliath to stone instead as a consolation, which wouldn't have been as dramatic). Greg's a great story-teller, but I think that he benefits from having such people as Michael Reaves, Frank Paur, and all those voice actors to work with.

(For that matter, some of the ideas, we know, came from the process of going through the business of making an animated series - for example, Thailog arose from their hearing Goliath's name backwards during a recording.)

So, if we're shooting for "Gargoyles" to come back, it should be coming back in a format where Greg would be working on it as a regular job and with a talented group of partners or assistants who could help out with some great ideas of their own.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 07:10:13 PM
IP: 63.186.1.169

Comic Books: From what I know about comic books (next to nil) a single 'story arc' which is about equivalent to an 'episode' takes 3-5 books ($3 or $4 a piece).
So I don't think a format along the lines of "pay now to see up to the 1st commercial break, pay again in a week to see what's after the commercial, then pay some more in 2 weeks to see what's after the next commercial" would fly (economically) or do the series justice.

But the graphic novel approach ($10 an 'episode') might work. It would be 'closer' to the Tv format.

Bringing it back: Not anytime soon. Disney's in a 'funk' and I'll be supporting whoever can get it out of that funk without getting it into another.
The focus too has changed. Around 94 the focus was young males. Now it's young females (turn on Disney channel and tell me I'm wrong). All the 10-yr-old boys are watching Spongebob on Nick.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 01:15:38 PM
IP: 132.170.38.101

TODD - You wrote: [I don't know enough about the comic book industry these days to comment on the economic feasibility of a comic book series based on "Gargoyles", but you're probably right about it not being too probable.]

Its not that I know that much about the comic industry - I could be entirely wrong on the long term viability of comics as they are. After all they have hung on this long. But logically it looks like the field is giving way to GN/TradePaperbacks outside of Iconic DC Characters. (Superman, and Batman are always going to have their own books; they are too much part of the culture to let them just cease to exist. On the Marvel side you could probably say the same thing about Spider-Man but not much else.) I personally could only see the pamphlet format continue into the future only in some sort of large anthology.

(I used to pick up tons of comics but got sick and tired of shelling out 3-4 bucks an issue only to have the entire story arc come out later in GN/TPB which I would pick up anyway. I'd rather wait for the collected edition. Thats how I read Astro City, Fables, Powers, Planetary, and Batman; Spider-Girl will join this list when the new TPBs start coming out later this year. Otherwise I pretty much don't buy Marvel that much anymore - X-Men get on my damn nerves in both their regular and Ultimate versions though I think I might pick up Ultimate Spider-Man in TPB one of these days; I can't stand it in issue format. Bendis insists on ending each issue on a shock and I'll just get an ulcer waiting a month for the story to continue. I'd rather read it all in one sitting. I'm also waiting for Thunderbolts to get collected. If any Marvel series of the last 10 years deserved to be released completely in TPB it would be that one.)

You wrote: [More than once, I've seriously pondered the possibility that it would be better for us to accept the fact that the series is over and, instead of going for "Get 'Gargoyles' back", shift our goal to one of "Create more high-quality animated series in the same vein".]

In the 10 years that we've been talking about it, a lot of great animated series have managed to make it to TV (or at least Cable). The thing is that most of it is Anime and not domestically produced. When GARGOYLES came out in 1994, the only thing on was Darkwing Duck, Goof Troop, and DIC dubbed Sailor Moon. These days we have shows with character and plot development - Cowboy Bebop, Big O, Inu-Yasha, Rurouni Kenshin, etc. Hell, Witch Hunter Robin just started before yesterday, and TechTV had Seriel Experiment Lain on a short while ago! Its a different playing field (even if its only on cable; Network TV has been given over almost completely to kiddified animated programing and I don't think thats going to change anytime soon) - and all that is without counting Justice League and Teen Titans which while Superhero oriented do have interesting plot and character development. (GL/HawkWoman is a good example - and yes I know that they call her Hawkgirl but I'm someone who read John Ostranders Hawkworld that basically developed the comic Shaera Thall and I'll stick with the reasons she gave there for not calling herself Hawkgirl when it was suggested to her. By the way HawkWorld and Ostranders Spector were two other series that are crying out for TPB collections. They had fabulous stories that deserve to be preserved.)

I stick with GARGOYLES not just because I want to see a serious animated series make its way to television; I want to see this story continue. I like the characters and universe that was created and I want to see more stories dealing with these characters and/or in this universe. Season 2 gave us a bit of open-ended closure but open-ended doesn't leave anything finished. I want to see (or read) more of these stories - Timedancer Brooklyn, Goliath and Elisa, Thailog and Xanatos, Samson and Delilah, hell just Demona (and Macbeth) alone cry out for more stories. Thats why I want to see the series again. (And thats why at this point the venue doesn't really matter - TV, Comic, Greg (if he ever so chose to do so) just posting stories online - its all good to me.)


ALEX GARG - You wrote: [The DVD sales in October will be our one shot at proving that there's value in reviving the show. Disney certainly doesn't release DVDs and videos for every cartoon series' 10th anniversary, so they must be paying attention on some level and now the ball is in our court.]

True; and I plan to pick up at least 2 sets of the DVDs. (One to watch and one as a backup in case I ruin the first one with repeated viewings. :-) ) But I think that outside of a run on the DVDs by the general public, there isn't much chance of Disney being interested enough to bring back the series. Giving the DVD strong sales is something we need to do to make sure that they put out the second season on DVD. Releasing the first season is essentially just more of them shifting their backlog from VHS to DVD; its not like this is the first time they are ever releasing the first season on any format. Getting a second season is an indication that the DVD did extraordinarily well and that there is a demand. If then the second season DVDs do well, then they have an indication that there is an audience for more of the series. (But lets not forget that in the end this isn't ADV or Geneon or Media Blasters; those anime companies are geared towards listening to the fans at the very least. Disney is Disney - its going to do what it wants and if you don't like it then thats the way it is. Just look at what they did to CASTLE IN THE SKY - the entire subtitle track is horribly mistimed, making it impossible to watch the show subtitled when you watch it in Japanese. Any other company that put out a product like this would have rushed a recall and put out a fixed version (except maybe Manga Entertainment - they suck at public relations and at putting out decent product; I don't even want to start talking about GHOST SWEEPER MIKAMI). Disney just left it the way it is so that if I want a proper subtitled version, I have to import an R2 all the way from Japan at considerable expense. They are going to decide based on their own internal considerations in the end - it would require a public outcry to influence that.)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 12:19:36 PM
IP: 12.75.154.231

Series' revival>>

I'm pretty sure that Gargoyles will not be coming back in the immediate future. With Disney being the way it is and with the animated market focusing increasingly on shows which have strong market power (or only market power, the episodes themselves being 22 minute commercials interrupted by other commercials) it's much harder to pitch a show like Gargoyles.

The next problem is going to be convincing Disney that there is marketing potential in Gargoyles. The DVD sales in October will be our one shot at proving that there's value in reviving the show. Disney certainly doesn't release DVDs and videos for every cartoon series' 10th anniversary, so they must be paying attention on some level and now the ball is in our court.

I know that this has been stressed to many eye-rolls here and other places around the fandom before, but if we fail to rally and make a good showing with the DVD, then, as Todd suggested, the focus of our efforts will have to be on forcing the creation of a Gargoyles-quality show as Gargoyles itself will be gone for us.

What we have to utilize for this effort is not our fandom's power but the power of those outside the fandom. I estimate that there are only a few thousand people who make up the *core* fandom (people who saw the show when it came out, visit the various sites regularly, attend the Gatherings and maybe host a site of their own)- we have great name recognition here, and while that's a testament to the close-knit nature of our group, it also shows that we aren't expanding which, from a marketing standpoint, is not good.

We shouldn't expect an ad blitz from Disney on the DVD release, so it comes to us to advertise, and I suggest going after the demographic that we were in (that many of us were in anyway) when the show came out and was targeted by the show. That's the group of kids who will get the DVD and, if they love it, tell their friends who will tell their friends, etc.

The idea that some have tossed around is that we all just rush down to our local Disney store and buy-out shelf after shelf of the DVD, and that's foolish; I know that after this Gathering I'll only be able to buy three to five DVDs depending on the price, and I assume many have the same lack of buying power.

If this is going to work, we really need to revamp ourselves as a fandom. The reputation we've built for ourselves as being a close-knit and generally pleasant fandom is now working to our disadvantage. It really is rare that I meet a person who doesn't remember watching the show and liked it, but efforts to bring him/her into the fandom fail because they don't think they can catch up to the core. I took a four-year hiatus from the fandom while in boarding school and in coming back I still feel like a newbie (*you* try going back through the TGS archives and see how long it takes before your brain melts) - not that the fact I can't remember my old handle helps my case any.

Getting back to the point - after this Gathering we need to, in earnest, start recruiting fans. Spreading the word on the typical forums just won't be enough. We are going to have to become the advertisements for this DVD and bringing the show back hinges on our success.

But this is, of course, all just my opinion. I apologize for the rant - school now.

Alex Garg
VA, USA
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 08:52:00 AM
IP: 216.145.68.130

Disney and the Muppets> The first deal was never actually completed. There was an agreement, and they went ahead with a few projects, including Muppet Vision 3-D for the theme parks, but then Jim Henson died, Disney tried to renegotiate the price, and the deal fell through. The projects in process were completed, but no change of ownership took place.

Incidently, this deal only includes the Muppets and Bear in the Big Blue House (a Henson-produced series for kids that currently airs on the Disney Channel). It does not include the Sesame Street characters (which are owned by CTW) or Fraggle Rock or Labyrinth, and it does not include the Creature Shop.


Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 08:18:31 AM
IP: 134.215.241.134

RAC - They bought the rights to the Muppets once before, but then let them go (I don't remember the details at present).

AIRWALKER - I don't know enough about the comic book industry these days to comment on the economic feasibility of a comic book series based on "Gargoyles", but you're probably right about it not being too probable.

And I've often wondered myself whether the desire to have more "Gargoyles" isn't really that different from getting sequels to Disney movies. More than once, I've seriously pondered the possibility that it would be better for us to accept the fact that the series is over and, instead of going for "Get 'Gargoyles' back", shift our goal to one of "Create more high-quality animated series in the same vein".

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 07:04:26 AM
IP: 63.186.1.98

QUESTION - You wrote: [I doubt it. Aside from Demona, Macbeth, possible mutated Wolf clones, robotic duplicates of Hyena and Jack, some distorted version of this fifth pack member under Coyote-X and possibly Sevarius I don't think many of the major protagonists and antagonists of gargoyles are going to appear in 2198.]

I don't think that every single protagonist and antagonist from the main series will make it down to 2198; but I think that it would make sense to have all of Xanatos sons make it to that time period. Why just Alex and Cyoti and not Thailog? (Unless of course we have a strong plot related reason; but at this point we don't know anything about that so it makes sense to leave the possibility open that somehow Thailog could find a way to 2198.)

I personally though don't think that there is even a slim possibility that Sevarious would make it to 2198; I do think that the 2198 UltraPack you listed would be an interesting way to bring the Pack to 2198 although I'm not sure if Cyoti would want to stick with a failing format up as far into the future as 2198. (It would be interesting if Cyoti as he developed sentience, he came to love Hyena only to discover that by the time he realized it she had died and so created a robotic dublicate in the future.)

You wrote: [It detracts 2198 from being its own independent story instead of a spinoff of the main saga.]

I don't see a problem with some villains making down to 2198; its a spinoff after all so its going to retain features from the original show.

And besides we're not talking about importing the entire cast from the original series; essentially we have altogether Demona, Macbeth, Brooklyn, Alex, Owen, Matrix, and Cyoti. From all of those we only have Cyoti on the villain side and everyone else either out of major action (Matrix is shut down, Alex is captured) or on the side of the heroes (Brooklyn, Owen, and Demona are working with the resistance to varying degrees - I'd include Macbeth in this list but its never been made clear how actively he'll work with the resistance). Given this I think that it can be argued that we wouldn't exactly importing massive amount of main series villains into 2198.

You wrote: [I really don't see Thailog getting immortality. I think it's more possibly that he'll live on ironically as the namessake and source material for a new brood of labyrinth clones much like Delilah in 2198 or Phaeton in the Exo-Squad finale.]

Its possible that Thailog could just live on in a line of clone descendents called Thailog but who aren't the actual Thailog and have none of his memories or personality but just his goals and outlook. On the other hand he could pull a SMJ Faust and have a copy of his memories downloaded into each succeeding generation of clone but the clones develop in different ways in each seperate incarnation. It would open up an interesting debate - if an exact copy of Thailogs memories were downloaded into a child-copy of Thailog, would the child-clone in question be Thailog or just a child brainwashed into thinking he was Thailog? Is a person just memories and personality that can be moved from clone to clone? Would a century of Thailog clone descendents really just be Thailog bodyswapping or would it be completely new beings with Thailogs baseline programming that could develop in their own ways?

And by the way, I can only call the Exo-Squad Finale an ending if I leave off the last five minutes of the series. Otherwise its just another fantastic series that was left dangling. (I'd love to get this series on DVD. The last batch of episodes when Phaeton started falling apart were fantastic.)


TODD - You wrote: [I'll confess that I'm not so much on anybody's side in particular as more simply wanting to see things change enough at Disney that they'd be more likely to revive "Gargoyles" than to keep on focusing on doing sequels to old Disney movies that don't need sequels.]

I agree; who needed Lion King 1/2? Whats wrong with them? And if they are going to do sequels then at least put stronger effort into them in terms of animation and plot. I'm not trying to at all imply that the people who worked on the various sequels of the last 7 years didn't do their best to put out product or were trying to put out something bad but sometimes you can just see that they weren't given enough time or money or just really didn't have much of a story to tell. Was there really a need for HUNCHBACK OF NOTRE DAME 2?

(Although technically if they did bring back GARGOYLES, it could be argued that it would be a form of sequel to an old Disney series and that they were just mining the vault for material - the show is ten years old after all. None of us would be complaining but it could be seen that way.)

You wrote: [I'm not certain that reviving "Gargoyles" is feasible as a television series even if Disney wanted to bring it back. Right now, a more realistic way of getting it brought back would be as a comic book series.]

I'm not so sure either. We still have the same problem we had 5 years ago - where is a revived series going to be placed? Adult Swim or Toonami are a nice dream but its not going to happen with a Disney show. That doesn't leave many options open. Toon Disney doesn't show anything new and doesn't look like its ever going to. And Saturday Morning isn't a place for a show like Gargoyles. I'd argue for Direct to Video/DVD but given the little amount of advertising I've ever seen for anything Disney has put out direct to video, I don't know if this would be such a great idea.

Comic Books would be a great solution especially given the trend recently towards Graphic Novels. (And Alan Moore's use of long written up novel sections in his comics/GN is a great trendsetter for a the possibility of leaving a few pages in a Gargoyles comic for text pieces that could expand on the universe and concepts.)

But I don't know if the market would sustain a long term Gargoyles comic; with the Manga explosion going on now, the comic book is in a bit of flux. I'm not even sure if outside of the main major icon comic characters that in a few years we'll have comic books in the same format as we've known them for the last fifty years. (Who's going to put down 4 bucks for 48 pages when for 10 dollars you get manga thats 5 times the page count? And with all the GN collections these days, why bother buying the original comic if you can wait and pick up the collected edition a few months down the line?)

I'd personally love to see a Gargoyles Comic (or illustrated novel or illustrated magazine or an illustrated illustrated story-newletter) but I don't know how economically desireable any of those will be for a large company like Disney. I don't despair or anything but realistically it could be that when we hit the 15 or 20 year mark of the show having gone off the air that the only way we're ever going to get new cannon material is if Greg decided to write up stories in whatever freetime he would want to spend on it and posts it online.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 12:17:17 AM
IP: 12.75.160.101

Todd:

You mean this isn't the first time Disney company bought the muppets?!? Oh brother. Seems like the deal was done more for making Eisner looking good before the shareholder's meeting than to make quality muppet entertainment (my opinion). If that's the case, then I hope he's gone before he destroys another piece of history...

But I'm not familiar with "Bear in the Big Blue House." Anyone know what that is?

Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Tuesday, February 17, 2004 09:25:52 PM
IP: 24.194.36.180

i'm with Todd, i don't care who owns or is in command of Disney, or more to the point, who owns or is in the command of Gargoyles, as long as it someone who will be more likely to get it back out there in some way (a show, a movie, a novel(s), a comic series, whatever)...

did someone mention Exo-Squad!?!?! after Gargoyles that is my second favorite animated series of all time! in fact, its funny it was mentioned, cuz i have it on VCD and watched a few episodes today! who else thinks Sean Napier is hot!? (even if he is a borderline alcoholic... lol)

matt
Tuesday, February 17, 2004 08:07:12 PM
IP: 216.178.8.76

Well, the latest news is that Disney's just bought the rights to the Muppets. Again.

Thanks for printing Greg Weisman's comments on the Eisner/Roy Disney friction, Bishansky. I'll confess that I'm not so much on anybody's side in particular as more simply wanting to see things change enough at Disney that they'd be more likely to revive "Gargoyles" than to keep on focusing on doing sequels to old Disney movies that don't need sequels. (But with the Disney Afternoon long since history and so many Disney animation studios getting closed down, I'm not certain that reviving "Gargoyles" is feasible as a television series even if Disney wanted to bring it back. Right now, a more realistic way of getting it brought back would be as a comic book series.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, February 17, 2004 07:09:39 PM
IP: 65.178.240.188

So Greg W. owns Disney stock, Eh? Interesting.

He's also met Eisner. Wonder what he's actually like... must be nervous to pitch to him.

I also have to wonder what Roy is like... Did Greg ever meet him? I wonder if he is as nice as Walt...

Yah, I want to see Disney owned by Roy, and not some multination conglomerate that would just push it aside.

Keep Disney pure!!!

Roy Disney is up for the OSCAR this year (Best Short Film, Animated - Destino, 2003 - www.geocities.com/oscarmovs/oscars.html)

So if he wins (and I am sure he will get a BIG sympathy vote) he will get a standing ovation and really kick Eisner in the balls. (*Pardon my French*)

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaTuesday, February 17, 2004 07:04:33 PM
IP: 198.53.161.213

Airwalker<I'm curious how he would relate to his brother(s) at that point in time. It would be interesting to see how Alex in particular would relate to him. (I also wonder if Thailog will still be around in the future as well;>

I doubt it. Aside from Demona, Macbeth, possible mutated Wolf clones, robotic duplicates of Hyena and Jack, some distorted version of this fifth pack member under Coyote-X and possibly Sevarius I don't think many of the major protagonists and antagonists of gargoyles are going to appear in 2198. It detracts 2198 from being its own independent story instead of a spinoff of the main saga.

<he strikes me as being ruthless enough that he'd find some loophole to grant him some form of immortality even if its just something like downloading his mind to an endless supply of clones or becomes a disembodied spirit taking over bodies ala Marvel Apocalypse.) >

I really don't see Thailog getting immortality. I think it's more possibly that he'll live on ironically as the namessake and source material for a new brood of labyrinth clones much like Delilah in 2198 or Phaeton in the Exo-Squad finale.

Question
Tuesday, February 17, 2004 05:56:15 PM
IP: 144.92.164.199

Man, this "Who's going to be in charge of Disney" bit is going to get really interesting when the shareholder's meeting comes. Though the better question is will company management stay clear out of the way of the creators and LET THEM make the show or will the higher-ups still dictate how the show will be run( it has a realistic moral?!? Not kiddified enough and it must be pounded into people's heads until it goes through their skull, killing any further interest in the show!)?
Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Tuesday, February 17, 2004 04:52:17 PM
IP: 128.113.148.13

Greg Weisman on Friday wrote up his opinion on the whole Disney/Eisner thing, and it's interesting to read.

*********

Disney. I probably shouldn't comment on this AT ALL.

I'm afraid I'm not one of the big Eisner-bashers. I worked for him during the Eisner/Katzenberg team-up years. And I'm not saying it was a piece of cake, but I had to pitch to the man once every six months, and I have no complaints about that era. He bought Gargoyles afterall. Course, I had to pitch it to him three times, but he still let us make the show. And for me personally, things got worse when Eisner STOPPED making the final decisions about which shows Disney TV Animation should make. Back then, when he gave the green light, other divisions either got on board or got out of the way. Now, all decisions are made by committee. I don't envy TVA's current execs and creative types. It's much harder to get a green light. And much harder to get a show made. The buck of course ultimately stops with Eisner -- even for this new way of operating, but people bitch about his micro-managing. And he never did that to us. But his complete removal from our process created a system which I think is arguably much worse.

In a war between Eisner and Roy Disney, it's hard not to want to side with the guy who literally carries the Disney name. But I have to admit that my Disney concerns are more parochial. The division I'm still (after all these years) most interested in is the TV Animation Division that (I like to think) I helped build with guys like Gary Krisel, Bruce Cranston, Jymn Magon, Tad Stones, Karl Geurs, Alan Zaslove, Tom Ruzicka, Michael Webster, etc. And frankly, I just don't know what Roy thinks of our old stuff. I know that back in the day, he WOULDN'T let us use characters like Mickey, Donald, Goofy, etc. He didn't think we could do them justice, I guess. He didn't stand in the way of a show like Gargoyles, but I never once heard an attaboy from him. And I did from Eisner.

Does that mean anything ten years later. Probably not. But it makes the whole sitch kinda gray and murky for me loyalty -wise.

But in a war between Eisner and Comcast? Well, I have no idea what would truly be best for the company, but it would be hard for me to see Disney lose it's independence and become merely a subsidiary of a larger conglomerate... and frankly aren't these conglomerates LARGE A DAMN NUFF ALREADY?

I don't have the answers to any of this.

Disney vs. Pixar. Or more accurately Eisner vs. Jobs. Again, hard not to want to side with Jobs, but I've been reading the Business sections on this, and Jobs seems to have made the deal impossible to make financially. Now the reason he may have done this may be because Eisner pissed him off beyond the ken, I have no idea, but there was no way anyone acting in Disney's fiduciary interest would give up 50% share of two Pixar movies in exchange for an on-going relationship with Pixar that would only have amounted to fixed Distribution fees. That just doesn't make financial sense to me as a Disney *but not a Pixar* stock holder.

********************

Greg Bishansky
Tuesday, February 17, 2004 01:08:55 PM
IP: 216.179.3.161

Well, seems as if Disney rejected the Comcast bid. (Click my name) Funny, and the board members still appear to have "confidence in the business, financial and creative direction of Disney under the leadership of Michael Eisner..." Argh!
Jim R. - [jim@dialwforwarp.com]
Tuesday, February 17, 2004 11:37:09 AM
IP: 65.40.75.78

TALON - You wrote: [Really there is no reason why Goliath should have rescued Xanatos and Sevarius from that oil rig.]

Saving them was a by-product of saving Elisa; its not like Goliath really had another option than letting all of them out of that chamber. (I don't think that it would bother him too much to leave Sevarious and Xanatos to die or to kill them in a fight. However enlightened he is, Goliath is still a tenth century Gargoyle; he just has a strong code of conduct. But I don't think that he'd be squeemish about killing particularly in dealing with Xanatos; even as late as FUTURE TENSE, he was describing Xanatos as pure evil - I don't think he'd have a big intellectual problem killing someone he considers pure evil. Just as long as he didn't strangle him in his sleep.)

You wrote: [Thailog looks much more impressive and is sharper witted than Xanatos ever was.]

Thailog does have the advantage of being placed very firmly and completely in the evil villain category while Xanatos operates in the fuzzy gray area between good and evil. I think that Thailog is an interesting villain because he's essentially Xanatos without any restraints in place. (I think that if Timedancer ever got done it would have been nice to see Xanatos from the time he first started in business; I think that he'd would be very similar to Thailog in terms of ruthlessness. I think that its possible to say that by the time Xanatos met Goliath, he had mellowed out a bit. Success tends to do that. Thailog hasn't really succeeded yet.)

You wrote: [The definition of a psychopath is someone amoral ie without a conscience. Apart from his unaccountable passion for Fox, Xanatos shows all the symptoms]

The thing is that I don't think that Xanatos lacks a conscience; its just that he doesn't let it get in the way of making decisions. I don't think he can be classified as evil but he does fall firmly in the villain category. (In fact it makes him more like a politician than anything else.)


BLAISE - You wrote: [I never saw any symptoms of "psychopathy" at all in Xanatos. He was a very amoral individual whose desire to "aquire" extended further than most people's, yes, but he never struck me as a psychopath.]

I don't think that he's a psychopath or a sociopath; he knows the difference between right and wrong and I don't think that he doesn't care about that distinction, its just that he's highly focused and dedicated to his own set of goals that don't always go along with normal moral considerations.

You wrote: [I'm very interested in Coyote's development from Xanatos' robotic servant to founder/leader of the UltraPack to centeries-old AI bent on galactic conquest.]

I'm curious how he would relate to his brother(s) at that point in time. It would be interesting to see how Alex in particular would relate to him. (I also wonder if Thailog will still be around in the future as well; he strikes me as being ruthless enough that he'd find some loophole to grant him some form of immortality even if its just something like downloading his mind to an endless supply of clones or becomes a disembodied spirit taking over bodies ala Marvel Apocalypse.)


GREG BISHANSKY - You wrote: [So it wasn't no reason. It was a scheme to grab immortality from the Kachina Coyote. Destroying the carving and killing two gargoyles while doing it would hopefully draw him out... and he was right.]

But technically that does mean that he admitted that he was willing to kill Angela (and Goliath) to get what he wanted. The real question is was he gambling that Coyote would appear to save the day with the real possibility that he would end up killing Goliath and Angela or was he just bluffing on the chance that Coyote might have been watching and hearing that explination would force him to appear?

I'm not arguing that Xanatos is a psychopath but that his intent does frame this sequence; was he really willing to carry through or not? Personally I think that the ambiguity adds to what makes the character interesting. Even is something like this he leaves himself with a pretty good alibi in case Goliath calls him on it later -

"You tried to kill us with acid in Arizona!"
"You weren't in any actual danger; I just had to make it look real. Why would I ever want to harm you Goliath? I'm the best friend you'll ever have."
"@#$%#@$%%@#$()&^^&*(* !!!!!"
:-) :-)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, February 17, 2004 11:23:36 AM
IP: 12.75.160.105

If COMCAST takes over Disny>Then maybe they can bring back gargoyles and give us what we want... a more adult gargoyles possibly set in 2198AD. Disny will never bring back gargoyles, oh no no no no! Shoure they will bring back the lion king like they just did. But no gargoyles "Possibly EVER".

I'm saying this because they could have done it. But they are too lazy. Yea they keep makeing Tarzan, and the jungle book like how many times, I don't think went anywhere? The lion king has a better chance of makeing it big more then tho's in my eyes, because they sucked and the Lion Kind do not. And Gargoyles should have too (Came back). They need to being back Gargoyles because it was thair best and still is their best show to date. So why dosen't a little light flash in the Disny staffs heads (Look $$$ if we brot this back maybe we can make some greens off this show and improve on it.) There are about 65 million fans or more out of the gargoyles show and we have been keeping it alive for this long.

Dude don't they look at our sites and stuff. Don't they see they will make money off of it's fans. Don't they see the potencial of this show. I don't think so! And that is why I think Comcast maybe a good thing but on the other hand I really don't know what is best for Disny. All I'm saying is that as long as Disny has Gargoyles locked up in some vault then Gargoyles will never truely go anywere because it's only catching dust ontop a shelf god only knows for how long. So why don't they do something about it. After the Gargoyles DVD's come out we will never see gargoyles again for 20 years at this rate and by then Disny might not exist then, It might be this Comcast. We can't let Gargoyles die, RIGHT? Yea, but what can we do about it... Just about nothing but what we been doing for the past 8 or so years. Keeping what we love alive! And I would be sad to see it fade away like some things that shouldn't, Gargoyles should live on, not fade away in some sucky vault of disnys. Got to love the freedom of speech.

I'm done here, for now, Ba ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Bad Brook/XT
Tuesday, February 17, 2004 05:26:27 AM
IP: 63.185.49.189

I beleive that Greg Weisman used these definitiosn to describe Hyena and Jackal in Ask Greg-

Psycho (Hyena)- can't tell the difference between wrong and right.
Socio- (Jackal) can tell the difference, but has no conscience, and so just doesn't care.

Xanatos know the difference between wrong and right, and is therefore not a psychopath. And he is not a sociopath; while he may have less regard for the moral standards of the day, he does not completely disregard them. He may exhibit some signs, but exhibiting signs and earning the classification are two separate things.

Stealing is considered wrong; is the average middle-schooler who knows this and shoplifts a candy bar for the thrill of it a psychopath as well?

It takes more than a little amoral behavior to be considered having a disorder of this magnitude.

I suggest re-watching the show in its entirety, many of the questions you posed are anwsered by the events of the episodes themselves.

Lynati
Monday, February 16, 2004 10:07:18 PM
IP: 67.64.41.159

>>What in his upbringing might have made him the way he is? His father seems a decent sort, but fishermen are gone a lot of the time, so most of upbringing was probably given by his mother. What kind of person was *she*?

I kinda figured Xanatos had had some sort of troubled childhood.
With the relationship between him and his father, I am kind of reminded of the third Indian Jones movie, where Sean Connery plays his father. They're on a blimp and Indy says something about his father never having helped him do anything, and his father says "I was teaching you to be independent." And Indy says, "I was 6!"

Cloud Fathers: I don't think Xanatos ever intended for them to be harmed. Coyote was supposed to pop in and save them, giving robot Coyote the opportunity to grab him.
I do believe Xanatos considers them to be too useful to expend in such a manner.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Monday, February 16, 2004 09:49:38 PM
IP: 132.170.38.101

TALON> I need to ask. Did you even watch the same series the rest of us did? Did you understand it?

<<admitting that he would kill Angela for no reason at all... >>

Um, his exact words were "Neither of you have done anything that I hold a grudge over. Truthfully, I have no desire to kill you. But the death trap has to be real and I have to be prepared to follow through if I hope to bag my true quarry. For weeks I seemed to be on the verge of destroying the carving, but until I made up my mind to destroy it last night, I didn't get a nibble. My prey seems to know when I'm sincere."

So it wasn't no reason. It was a scheme to grab immortality from the Kachina Coyote. Destroying the carving and killing two gargoyles while doing it would hopefully draw him out... and he was right.

Greg Bishansky
Monday, February 16, 2004 08:06:57 PM
IP: 216.179.4.199

Hey, James Anatidae, do you think that Xanatos' mother was cheating on Petros Xanatos! <gasps> That fact alone would make Xanatos fair game.

In Cloud Fathers Xanatos certainly seemed psychopathic, admitting that he would kill Angela for no reason at all... I would have thought that Goliath should have remembered this episode! Amazing that Xanatos was the one arresting the Mazas! How perverse is that?! I am suprised that Elisa's father did not remember how Xanatos and his instrument treated poor Derek...

It looked as if Goliath and Angela would have at least wounded Xanatos were they able to at the end of the episode. I had been hoping that there would be a show down between Goliath and Xanatos when I first saw this episode.

Talon
Monday, February 16, 2004 07:45:37 PM
IP: 129.234.4.76

Talon> "Xanatos got to the top purely because he is prepared to do anything to get ahead."

Ah, but lest we forget, Xanatos got to the top because he sent himself the very thing that capitalized his fortune. All in good ol' temporal misunderstanding and confusion, if Xanatos had not done this for himself, would his entire outlook on life change? His character is partly based on his wealth, so if he wasn't rich to begin with I would think he'd be somewhat of a totally different person. Maybe still the intelligent type of villian, just not as wealthy, but on the other hand, money and power can corrupt....

Jim R. - [jim@dialwforwarp.com]
Monday, February 16, 2004 07:33:36 PM
IP: 65.41.202.95

"You don't become a sociopath, you're born that way."

I didn't mean "become" in the sense of "Here are your degrees in business and psychopathology, congratulations," but more in the sense of acting in such a way to become classified as a psychopath. Why I didn't say it like that... *shrug*

In any case, it's my understanding the debate between nature and nurture as determining elements in one's development has yet to be settled - the example at hand being that while you make that claim you also seem to suggest that Xanatos could have been influenced by the habits of his parents. Of course there are mental diseases which occur regardless of the environment, but ones that affect behavior typically need some sort of trigger; and if you remove the trigger, you bypass the disease (although you can't do that until you've recognized the presence of the disease, and that typically only happens once it's manifested via the trigger you're trying to avoid).

Alex Garg
VA, USA
Monday, February 16, 2004 07:00:02 PM
IP: 216.145.68.130

[but the fact that he takes steps to reform closer to the end of the series suggests that Xanatos is not without morals and not as far gone as one has to be to become a psychopath/sociopath,]

You don't become a sociopath, you're born that way. There's no changing it, you can only teach them that not breaking the law is in their best interest.

I agree that Xanatos isn't a psycho/sociopath (the terms are practically interchangeable) and his change of heart at the end of series seems to prove that, unless he's just acting. :) He does seem to come quite close to the profile of one, (http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/socio.htm) and makes me wonder what mental problems he *does* have. What in his upbringing might have made him the way he is? His father seems a decent sort, but fishermen are gone a lot of the time, so most of upbringing was probably given by his mother. What kind of person was *she*?

"Love is a weakness, David."
James Anatidae - [parshallNOSPAM@citcom.net]
USAMonday, February 16, 2004 06:40:14 PM
IP: 207.144.235.199

Xanatos is anything but a psychopath. Obsessive with getting his own way, definitely. However, while looking out for number one, he's not one to outright go against someone that might become an ally one day. Thats why he always wanted "our heroes" alive everytime he faced them. It was obvious he knew about them using the clocktower as a new lair, and never even once tried to destroy them during the day. Hell, I don't think I've ever seen Xanatos loose his cool other than one time in the season 1 finale (Reawakening) when he rips off his helmet from his power armor suit in frustration, and then gets pinned down almost immediately afterwards by Bronx. That being said, I think his love for Fox is genuine. Fox is obviously not some fling he wanted to knock up and toss out onto the street afterwards. He actually cares for her, as seen in "Eye of the Beholder" when she turns into a were-fox while wearing the Eye of Odin. In "City of Stone, part 2", he obviously cared for her welfare when he checked to see if she was damaged after the rough landing attempt in the jetchopper at the beginning of the episode.
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Monday, February 16, 2004 05:20:27 PM
IP: 207.65.59.161

Xanatos & Morality>> "The definition of a psychopath is someone amoral ie without a conscience."

That's the definition of somebody who is merely evil. A psychopath is somebody who consistently acts violently *and* has no evident sense of morals or who prefers to act amorally. Xanatos is disillusioned, manipulative, opportunistic and has been corrupted/blind-sighted by his power, not psychopathic; and that list of adjectives is not an equation for psychopathic behavior. Unlike Saddam Hussein, Xanatos doesn't (at least strike me as one who would) go out and assassinate all his opposition - he acquires their companies. Unlike Stalin, he doesn't round-up his inefficient employees or employees who consider leaving his company and send them to arctic wastelands to die - he fires them (or lets them quit). What we see as doing anything to get ahead Xanatos sees as taking advantage of opportunities afforded him and, really, that's all they are. He takes things because he can, but only when he can, and he's willing to wait for that time to arrive through patient manipulations and not charge out with reckless abandon to obtain his goal. The last key distinction between Xanatos' behavior and psychopathic behavior is that Xanatos does not see what he is doing as necessarily wrong, just looking out for himself. He didn't have Derek mutated because he really wanted to ruin Derek's life, he wanted to see the effects of Sevarius' work which might have later applications.

"Eveyone who knows anything about mental health knows that 'only the stupid psychopaths get busted - the intelligent ones can run companies.' This is a quote from Dr Hare, a serious professional on the subject."

Be that as it may, I disagree. I would amend to say that only the reckless ones get caught, regardless of intelligence.

Xanatos is merely playing a greater game of calculation and his manipulations of the rules often come with a sacrifice of his conscience. The only times he really acts "psychopathic" or what I would consider the role of a stereotypical villain is in "The Price" and "Cloud Fathers"; and in those moments of recklessness he fails to accomplish his goals. Even as early as "Awakening" when he lost control of the situation before him and recklessly used the gargoyles for his own ends he got caught.

To equate Xanatos with the greatest mass-murderers and dictators of the last century doesn't even remotely characterize Xanatos' personality. Has he done some rather deplorable things? Certainly, I don't disagree with that; but the fact that he takes steps to reform closer to the end of the series suggests that Xanatos is not without morals and not as far gone as one has to be to become a psychopath/sociopath, e.g. Jackal and Hyena.

If Talon had killed Sevarius and Xanatos, I wouldn't see that as poetic justice, I'd see that as cop-out irony. I mean, great, their creation that was made to act like them killed them. So... point? Anybody can be ironic (or think that they're being ironic *cough* Alanis Morissette's lyricist *cough*), but I think it was much better writing to have Talon get the better of them rather than just kill them off.

Alex Garg - [alex_garg@yahoo.com]
VA, USA
Monday, February 16, 2004 05:06:10 PM
IP: 216.145.68.130

The definition of a psychopath is someone amoral ie without a conscience. Apart from his unaccountable passion for Fox, Xanatos shows all the symptoms (except for sexual promiscuity). Xanatos has greandiose ideas of self-importance, no realistic short term goals (early in the series) and is prepared to harm anyone to get his way. The crush on Fox seemed a rather incongruous afterthought. Hyena and Proteus are psychopaths, but they are also stupid. Eveyone who knows anything about mental health knows that "only the stupid psychopaths get busted - the intelligent ones can run companies," (as Xanatos does.) This is a quote from Dr Hare, a serious professional on the subject. Xanatos is a powerful man, like Stalin, Mao Tse Tung and Saddam Hussein, who were/are all psychopaths. Xanatos got to the top purely because he is prepared to do anything to get ahead.

I would have thought it would be poetic justice for Xanatos and Sevarius to be killed by a monster they created. They had made the mutates monstrous physically, but not really taken away their souls. The CREATED Thailog, a monster without a conscience. I would not like to have Xanatos' karma!




Talon
Monday, February 16, 2004 01:53:05 PM
IP: 129.234.4.76

****A fireball hurtles in through the window and lands in the middle of the Comment Room...inches away from where Blaise has materialized.**** Yipes! That was *too* close.
Anyway, a Happy President's Day to all my fellow U.S. citizens!

TALON> I never saw any symptoms of "psychopathy" at all in Xanatos. He was a very amoral individual whose desire to "aquire" extended further than most people's, yes, but he never struck me as a psychopath. Nor did it seem that the creative team viewed him as such (look at the Gargoyles' writers' bible--you can find it on the 'Net at Aris Katsaris' homepage).
Hyena, however, was always viewed as the psychopath (with her only anchor being her sociopathic brother). Then, too, there's Proteus from New Olympus; the type of guy who knows the difference between "good" and "evil," but revels in the evil.
Also, I think it would ultimately have been worse for the series if Xanatos had died in his first encounter with Thailog--we'd have lost some great character development and stories with Xanatos. Besides, Greg had plans for Thailog to emerge as the main antagonist ("the big bad" in Greg's own words) in the third season anyway. So we'd get both Thailog as the main villain, and Xanatos as the type of shady ally that the clan can never quite trust.

BABS> Well, from the 2198 outline, it seems as though Alexander will be a good guy (most likely, a good portion of that is the result from the influence Lexington will probably have on his life). Xanatos' other two "sons"--Thailog and the Coyote robot--are different matters entirely.
Personally, I'm very interested in Coyote's development from Xanatos' robotic servant to founder/leader of the UltraPack to centeries-old AI bent on galactic conquest.

Well, I need some breakfast, so I'll just check back later on. Until then, farewell. ****Another fireball hurtles in through the window, this time on target, but Blaise has dodged out of the way just in time. He bolts out the door muttering something about "bill collectors."****

Blaise
Monday, February 16, 2004 11:05:43 AM
IP: 209.178.140.140

Sorry, I should clarify: "Goliath Chronicles" episodes other than "The Journey" are not considered canon.
Abby
Minneapolis, MN
Monday, February 16, 2004 09:44:07 AM
IP: 161.225.1.12

10th in the name of the (not so) frozen North!

I'd have to agree with Sheltie on this Thailog/Xanatos issue. Goliath's sense of honor often guides his actions.

Greg has said that Thailog would have been a significant presence in the third season (the episode where the clones die is from "The Goliath Chronicles," and Greg has indicated that these are not canon).

Abby
Minneapolis, MN
Monday, February 16, 2004 09:36:51 AM
IP: 161.225.1.12

darn 9th
Babs
Monday, February 16, 2004 09:27:03 AM
IP: 68.80.222.40

7th! Sry that last one was me.
I would have to go with Xanatos on this one, Due to the fact that Puck/Owen was training thier child to be I guess like all Oberons kiddies. THe fact that he is human and would be able to get more things done day and night. The fact that big G saved them from the oil rig was something I guess he owed them for using that little shocking thing, plus you know G by now he's always ready to give a helping hand no matter how stupid it seems. And fact 3 when all the clons got sick as did Thailog and whe he died' that pretty much would have been the end it (the series) once the leader of the dark side dies' there's no one there to stop them. true Demona would have been there but she pretty stuck to herself most of the time.
About the attractive section, don't we all as humans find other breeds of creaters attractive, beautiful in some way or another, granit we wouldnt want to jump on them, but beauitful nonetheless.

What I would have liked to see what the out come of David (Whatever David named his son) If he went to the good or bad side. That could have went to a whole new chapter.

Sry for any typos I just woke up and there's a big black cat smacking her tail in my face.

Babs
Philly, Pa
Monday, February 16, 2004 09:26:39 AM
IP: 68.80.222.40

Ok make that 8th for me - or should I say 'a h-ochd'!
Sheltie
Shetland, UK
Monday, February 16, 2004 09:26:37 AM
IP: 81.131.215.45

7th
Talon> Bear in mind though, Goliath has a very strong sense of honour which would never have allowed him to just up and leave them - even if it was Xanatos & Sevarius. And he wouldn't have forgiven himself had he done otherwise.

Haven't been about much lately. New semester started a week ago and its already an absolute nightmare thanks to totally unorganised (& non-existant in one case) tutors. May try and pop in again later in the week.
On a lighter note, have just finished my first Gaelic unit which is so far the only one to be going smoothly.

All the best folks

Sheltie
Shetland, UK
Monday, February 16, 2004 09:23:07 AM
IP: 81.131.215.45

Assuming anonymous posts don't count, I claim 7th.


Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
Monday, February 16, 2004 09:21:14 AM
IP: 134.215.241.134

...
Anonymous
Monday, February 16, 2004 09:16:56 AM
IP: 68.80.222.40

OK, so who thinks it would have mad for a better series if Thailog had successfully killed Xanatos and then taken over as archvillain? Really there is no reason why Goliath should have rescued Xanatos and Sevarius from that oil rig. Thailog looks much more impressive and is sharper witted than Xanatos ever was. And the fact that he can find humans attractive is interesting. He could just grab a defenseless girl by swooping down on her!
Talon
Monday, February 16, 2004 08:14:54 AM
IP: 129.234.4.1

Huh, sixth!
Talon
Monday, February 16, 2004 06:47:20 AM
IP: 129.234.4.1

Good morning.

5th, methinks.

Ed
Monday, February 16, 2004 01:55:30 AM
IP: 131.111.8.103

I claim the spot given by the product of 2 and 2!!
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, February 16, 2004 01:19:48 AM
IP: 67.14.195.21

3rd in the name of the Fay~

Mooncat

Mooncat
Monday, February 16, 2004 12:46:37 AM
IP: 68.102.17.133

Second!
Leo
Monday, February 16, 2004 12:40:41 AM
IP: 68.231.241.236

Ok, let's kick off the top 10.

FIRST!!!!! Wheeeee!!!!!!

Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Monday, February 16, 2004 12:09:12 AM
IP: 66.220.76.196