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Gargoyles

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Comments for the week ending July 26, 2004

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<< I suggest that ancient gargs had a similar impulse, a aesthetic need, if you will. If you want to, you could connect this to mating, much the same way as fancy nest building is important in cetain bird species' mating rituals. >>

All day long, this comment has had me envisioning something like this...

"You want to impress me, boys? Then stop with all the flexing your biceps and gliding into smokestacks stuff and show me what kind of nest you can build. Oh yes... and one other thing. Stop calling me Angie!"

Patrick
Sunday, July 25, 2004 11:11:01 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Watched my tape of "Protection" this afternoon; I'll save my ramble on it for tomorrow, however, after the room's cleared.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, July 25, 2004 06:43:15 PM
IP: 4.245.22.205

who says humans NEEDED to invent technology at all to survive? sure it helped us conquer new habitats, grow our population and live longer, healthier lives, but humans are certaintly capable of life without inventing things, most species on this planet don't invent things and they do alright.

humans however evolved a brain made for problem solving and the better we got at solving problems, the closer we got to invention. it takes a LOT of energy to keep our brains working, we have to acquire more energy to power our brains than any other animal, so the brain has to earn its keep. it does this by helping us find food, water, shelter, reproductive success and safety from predators. tools, art, and language just came naturally to us.

would the early humans have survived if we hadn't taken the step into invention? i tend to think so, at least for a while, but our evolution has always been pushing us in the direction of invention, its part of what makes us human.

matt
Sunday, July 25, 2004 03:16:47 PM
IP: 207.230.48.57

I never said that they-as-individuals didn't have the _urge_ to create or invent. I just said that they-as-species wouldn't have had the same _need_ to do so, for reasons of survival, as did early humans.
Christine
Sunday, July 25, 2004 12:14:44 PM
IP: 67.136.147.180

Patrick>> I see where you are going. The only problem is, as you said, the audience can choose not to believe that G. habilus and the like existed. Yet, they must (if Greg's statements hold) accept that there were gargoyles capable of worshipping God/gods before humans existed. These gargoyles, furthermore, did not have as much need for tools. How is this possible?

In essense, we are talking about a form of recient "evolution" that can be accepted by the *entire* audience. If it helps, think of the generation of gargs we are discussing as either the subspecies G. sapiens anciens (from the evolutionary standpoint) or as the Ancient Forefathers (from the creationary standpoint), depending on the person.

Theories of development of speech>> Good thinking, Matt. I've also heard a theory that language serves as a way to "groom" your friends en masse.

Artifacts>> I must diagree with Christine. Several gargs have had the impulse to create: Lex most obviously, Broadway with his cooking (which I deduce from his love of a good kitchen), and so on. These gargs create for fun and fulfillment.

I suggest that ancient gargs had a similar impulse, a aesthetic need, if you will. If you want to, you could connect this to mating, much the same way as fancy nest building is important in cetain bird species' mating rituals.

JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Sunday, July 25, 2004 12:32:42 AM
IP: 4.247.182.110

<< Patrick: Interesting, but we're focusing on the gargoyles Greg has said exist, not the hypothetical evolutionary ancestors. This, of course, makes things that much more confounding! >>

But it seems to me that if you want to talk about the effects that the appearance of man on the scene had on gargoyles, you have to go back and look at prehistory, because man did not just suddenly appear out of the blue. Man was evolving and adapting and spreading out, and the process happened over tens of thousands of years. In Europe, for example, early man would have been in conflict with early gargoyle long before the dawn of civilization, competing for hunting grounds and cave shelters.

Patrick
Saturday, July 24, 2004 10:11:47 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

as an aspiring zoologist i've put a lot of thought into the evolutionary history of the gargates and my (nearly)professional guess is that they branched off from the proto-mammals (the intermediaries between reptiles and mammals). proto-mammals were egg layers, had primitive energy storage methods (using sunlight), and had many traits in common with both reptiles and mammals. all these seem to match up pretty well with gargates.
if i'm right, the gargoyles closest living relatives would be the Monotremes or egg laying mammals including the platypus and the two species of echidna.

if that is where gargates branched off, they went on to perfect the sun-based energy method into their stone sleep and that may have contributed to their longer lifetimes and longer breeding cycles.

i think it was language and possibly religion that pushed gargoyles to become more intelligent, though i wouldn't rule out the fact that their complex social system required a bigger brain to keep track of everyone. the same could easily be said of humans.

i think that just like the other apes can provide humans clues about our past, garg beasts can provide clues to the gargoyles past. afterall, we see that garg beasts have mastered the rudiments of language and problem solving. watch Bronx in "The Hound of Ulster" and you'll see what i mean. Garg Beasts are very intelligent, i'd say AT LEAST as smart as chimps. most likely gargoyles and beasts branched off from a common ancestor only a few million years ago. they only have two main differences taht i can see (wings and intelligence level). perhaps the evolution of wings would lead the group taht would become gargoyles to need bigger brains?

interesting stuff.. well, to me anyway.

matt
Saturday, July 24, 2004 07:15:29 PM
IP: 207.230.48.17

I still sometimes wish that Greg Weisman had never mentioned about gargoyle beasts being to gargoyles what chimps are to humans, since after he said that, I started getting visions of Bronx eating bananas in the kitchen and tossing the peels on the floor for the trio to step on when they walk in, followed by the trio landing on their tails and Bronx pointing at them and laughing.

Z - Yes, I'd been wondering about whether those two lonely roads in "Revelations" and "Double Jeopardy" were the same as well. (Incidentally, I wonder where Matt was when Elisa was driving down the s-shaped road in "Double Jeopardy" - had she somehow managed to shake him off again?)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, July 24, 2004 06:42:04 PM
IP: 4.245.17.88

Early Gargoyles>>
Patrick: Interesting, but we're focusing on the gargoyles Greg has said exist, not the hypothetical evolutionary ancestors. This, of course, makes things that much more confounding!

Christine: Thing is, if Greg's comments be true, we know the gargoyles worshipped something before the rise of humans. Presumably that means they had some sort of abstract speech, which argues against the "flying beasts" theory I have posited this week. This may also support the ideas I alluded to last week, namely that the gargoyles had a rich world-wide culture before humans.

I still think I am fighting against Greg, though. To me, his vision of early gargoyles is not interesting in a social sense. They could only be interesting to zoologists.

JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Saturday, July 24, 2004 05:34:02 PM
IP: 4.247.191.22

"animals similar in relationship to gargoyles as chimpanzees and apes are to humans." well, we know the Garg Beasts fit that category, and there had to be other species along the way that didn't make it.
matt
Saturday, July 24, 2004 12:47:04 PM
IP: 207.230.48.17

Prehistoric gargoyles > I would love to see more extrapolation along these lines. From what we know in the show, the gargoyles don't seem to have much of an innovation-based culture of their own; everything they have, they get from humans either literally or figuratively -- according to the lore, they didn't even wear clothes until that Roman mage. They didn't build homes; the cliffs were where they lived until the humans came along and built the castle.

And really, why would they? The basic needs that drove early humans to develop tools are needs the gargoyles don't have. They don't need shelter, because they sleep in stone and even when awake are much less bothered by extremes of weather and temperature.

What about tools and weapons? With claws that can cut through solid stone, they wouldn't need knives to get through the hides of their prey. A gargoyle fist could crack bone as easily as a primitive axe. They really wouldn't have much need for weapons in hunting, since they're strong enough to take on the big tough animals without spears, and being able to glide and attack from above is a tremendous advantage when it comes getting close to the swift galloping animals, so no need for slings and arrows. And, of course, if they don't need shelter and didn't wear clothes, they wouldn't have needed tools for making those things either.

Medicine? They heal quickly, and presumably have corresponding resistance to most illnesses. So there wouldn't be much of a need at all to develop medical technology beyond simple plant and herb based pharmacology.

Fire? Being nocturnal creatures and the meanest critters around, it's not like they would need fire to keep away the things that go bump in the night. They aren't about to freeze to death. They certainly don't need it to see in the dark. Or to help with the making of tools. Which just leaves cooking, and primitive gargs could probably take it or leave it ... raw meat might have been their preferred diet.

Humans developed smarts, tools, technology and society (including language and religion) to compensate for being smaller, weaker, and generally more vulnerable to the dangers of the world. Gargoyles, without those vulnerabilities, wouldn't have needed to develop those things.

So how'd they get smart? That's the question. Do they or did they have language of their own? Or did they only learn to speak after coming into contact with early humans?

Got a little long-winded there, especially since I've only been up for an hour and haven't shaken off the effects of the sleeping pill yet. But this is the sort of thing I love thinking about.

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Saturday, July 24, 2004 12:41:24 PM
IP: 67.136.147.143

I'll take "Stupid Answers" for $200, Alex. "It's when I would go back to my regular job if I won $1.3 million on Jeopardy." / "What is never?"

No, you can't live like Bill Gates... but that kind of money invested correctly, even after taxes, can give you a pretty comfortable annuity.

Pre-historic gargoyles > Well, if you subscribe to the theory of evolution and believe that the human species has evolved over millions of years from less advanced species, then you would probably assume the same is true of gargoyles. So somewhere back down the evolutionary ladder, you'd find "gargoilus habilus", the first tool-using ancestor of moden gargoyles. Maybe you'd even find a failed evolutionary branch of cro-magnon gargoyles. Or other related species in the same order that have become extinct... animals similar in relationship to gargoyles as chimpanzees and apes are to humans.

On the other hand, if you favor creation theory, then this argument is moot. Gargoyles and humans have always existed in their current forms since the beginning of time.

And speaking of time... there's only a few more days left before it runs out for Gathering pre-registration.

2 days left to pre-register for The Gathering 2004 (deadline is July 25).
7 days left to reserve your hotel room at the Delta Centre-Ville (deadline is July 30 at noon).
13 days left until The Gathering 2004 in Montreal, Quebec!

Patrick / The Gathering 2004 - [<-- Keith David is coming!]
Saturday, July 24, 2004 08:46:45 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Z - Think of it this way. It's a ratings bananza for Jeopardy since he went on that long streak. More people are started to tune in to see when/if somebody can beat him. I've always held a strong suspcion that delay when certain people go on the show - ie . . make sure the categories line up with the person's interests as much as possible. In the case of Kenny, if the writers really did want him to lose (I don't believe they want him to lose until he gets to the point of nearly breaking a few records - either beat the number of consecutive appearances or amount of money), just look up his biography to find his weaknesses to find categories he would have trouble with AND not pick categories that would ace. Did he win today? If so, you gotta know that his co-workers will be watching how many days of work he misses.

Of course, I found out that they only shoot 5 episodes a day - I thought it would be as many as 10 per day. In terms of keeping secrets, Kenny will have to miss work the entire time the upcoming season is filmed so that nobody will know for sure if how many more shows he appears on. I'll be suprised if Kenny doesn't get asked to appear on "Who wants to be a Millionaire" as a publicity stunt. Anyways, once he breaks at least one record, I'm sure the writers will be working to ensure that he gets eliminated ie . . set a game up with categories that he is weak in and get opponents who know the categories fairly well that he is weak in. The game where he finally loses is probably going to strickly examined to make sure he didn't deliberate set out to lose.

Of course, Jeopardy only measures your amount of knowledge, not wisdom.

DPH
AR, USA
Saturday, July 24, 2004 02:02:08 AM
IP: 67.14.195.48

Flying "mountain lions">> This reminds me of Greg's recent comments suggesting that pre-human gargoyles may not have used tools.

The comment makes me wonder: is it possible that the pre-human gargoyles had less intelligence than the modern variety? Were they flying beasts"? And , finally, could such beast maul -- and sometimes even prey upon -- humans, having only as much in common with our species as bears have?

JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Saturday, July 24, 2004 01:01:44 AM
IP: 4.247.152.32

I guess it's been a few weeks since I last swooped in. One quick question: Is the road where Thailog attacks Broadway and Lexington in "Double Jeopardy" the same road where Bluestone is driving Elisa's car in "Revelations"? I doubt anyone would know unless Greg has said something about it. The two roads do look pretty similar.

Speaking of "Double Jeopardy", has anybody been watching Jeopardy the past month and a half? I used to watch about once a week, but I've been watching nearly every day since Ken Jennings started his streak. I love that guy. It's gonna take some serious luck for abybody to beat him.

Peace

Z
Saturday, July 24, 2004 12:37:52 AM
IP: 66.143.159.109

Watched my tape of "Upgrade" today. Pack episodes aren't my favorite (for the reason that I've given before that I prefer villains who are good for more than just big fights), but this one still has some good moments in it.

One bit that I find interesting is how, after the gargoyles stop the Pack from robbing the bank at the beginning and force them to retreat, Wolf yells, just before heading into the Pack's aircraft, "This isn't over!" Those are, of course, the exact same words that Hakon yelled in "Awakening Part One" after the gargoyles drove the Vikings away from Castle Wyvern. I wonder if that was a deliberate foreshadowing of "Vendettas".

This episode has a number of amusing moments in it. Among them:

1. Coyote's head making an entrance by knocking on the door of the Pack's aircraft - while it's still in flight. That certainly got the Pack's attention.

2. While the trio argue over who's going to win the second-in-command competition, Bronx, listening in on them, moans in a fed-up way and places his front paws over his ears (behaving a little more like the conventional anthropomorphic animal mascot of the Scooby Doo variety than usual).

3. Hyena takes an immediate interest in Coyote, with Jackal commenting in disgust "Well, that's sicker than usual."

4. Fox delivering her message to the trio disguised as a public service announcement.

5. Officer Morgan's wondering whether to send the Pack to a hospital, a machine shop, or a vet.

I still remember how creepy I found Wolf, Jackal and Hyena's changes (I definitely agreed with Dingo in his uneasy and even horrified response to their transformation). A few of Jackal and Hyena's doings in this episode (such as Jackal's arm coming crawling back to him after Bronx tears it off or Hyena becoming more spider-like) add to the disturbing element.

Dingo, on the other hand, becomes more sympathetic in refusing to undergo a physical upgrade and in being repulsed by his teammates' alterations (a good lead-in to "Walkabout" and the never-made "Bad Guys").

We get a bit more light on Xanatos's character when he views Fox beating him at their game as something to rejoice over - because it means that his wife is truly his equal.

Dingo quotes Benjamin Franklin in his "We've got to hang together, or we'll all hang separately" line.

They foreshadow "The Cage" by showing Talon (in the video that Coyote shows the Pack) in his "Cage" design rather than his "Metamorphosis" design.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, July 23, 2004 06:52:43 PM
IP: 4.244.12.45

James>> I've figured that, instead of physical descriptions, they'd use characteristics when describing siblings, though I'm sure they could use distinctive physical traits when asking. They also probably could further distinguish the gargoyle in question by generation - hatchling, younger sibling, rookery sibling, elder, etc.
Alex Garg - [alex_garg@yahoo.com]
VA, USA
Friday, July 23, 2004 02:53:06 PM
IP: 138.88.79.43

So I've been wondering about how gargoyles didn't have names.

Seriously, how could you refer to anyone other than Goliath or Leader (Hudson) when you want to find out where someone is? For example, let's say you're looking for Brooklyn back in the 10th century in Wyvern. Would you ask, 'Have you seen our brother?'? It doesn't seem very helpful. And a physical description just seems silly too, or else they would've have decided on names. How the heck would you know which brother you were trying to get?
James
Friday, July 23, 2004 08:43:13 AM
IP: 199.43.32.21

BATTLE BEAST - Well, the King Arthur of "Gargoyles", according to Greg Weisman, was born in 485 and brought to Avalon in 542, so he'd have been 57 then.

As for the Sword in the Stone, opinion is still divided on the issue. Since this particular feat doesn't enter the legend until relatively late (with Robert de Boron in the very late 12th century, after Geoffrey of Monmouth), I believe that it doesn't have anything to do with the career of the historical Arthur (if there was one; opinion is still divided on that as well), but there are others who believe that it does. (There's a theory that I came across some years ago that brought up that the Latin word for "stone" is "saxo" - as in the "ad saxum commutate" part of Demona's spell in "City of Stone" - a word which is similar to "Saxon", and suggested that the historical Arthur seized a sword from a mighty Saxon warrior in battle and thereby first came to the attention of his contemporaries that led to his becoming a king or leader and that a scribal error made it look as if he'd taken a sword from a stone rather than from a Saxon. Then there's the theory that the Sword in the Stone stems from the Sarmatians, a nomadic tribe in central Asia who worshipped a sword thrust in the ground as a representation of their war-god, and who have been advanced as having some connections with the origins of the Arthurian legend - a concept which the movie about King Arthur currently out is using, I understand.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, July 23, 2004 06:49:57 AM
IP: 4.244.12.194

Heh, the release date isn't even known yet and two people have already written reviews for the DVD on Amazon.
suilad
Okla City
Friday, July 23, 2004 02:03:26 AM
IP: 68.12.196.86

Ahhhh, to see BOTCON on the TRANSFORMERS DVD...

NOw, if Keith is comming, lets get him on the DVD! (Tee Hee...)

TODD> Quick questions... how old was King Arthur when he died -er, went to sleep?

I know the ledgend of Arthur is non fictional (but stretched in Gargoyles, like Macbeth), but is the ledgend of the Sword in the Stone based on real facts, or is it just a fictional story someone wrote?

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaFriday, July 23, 2004 12:45:42 AM
IP: 142.59.132.116

BIG NEWS!

Ladies and gentlemen... children of all ages... the Gathering of the Gargoyles 2004 is pleased to announce that joining us in Montreal will be none other the voice of GOLIATH himself, Mr. KEITH DAVID!

Mr. David has made appearances at the 1997 and 2001 Gatherings, but this will be the first time he will be in attendance for the entire convention, including the Radio Play and the Q&A session at the Banquet.

Of course, series creator GREG WEISMAN will be joining us again, along with a film crew for the upcoming "Gargoyles" DVD.

We will be posting more details shortly, but suffice it to say, you won't want to miss this Gathering!

4 days left to pre-register for The Gathering 2004 (deadline is July 25).
9 days left to reserve your hotel room at the Delta Centre-Ville (deadline is July 30 at noon).
15 days left until The Gathering 2004 in Montreal, Quebec!

Patrick / The Gathering 2004
Thursday, July 22, 2004 09:49:14 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

MATT - The first time's when the helicopter is "kidnapping" Thailog and Xanatos, musing over who could be behind it, includes on his list Demona, Macbeth, and Renard. The second time is when Owen tells Xanatos that he's discovered that the oil rig where Xanatos is to rendezvous is secretly owned by a certain company, and Xanatos asks "Cyberbiotics?"

I suspect that Thailog decided to kill Sevarius and Goliath due to parental issues of an almost Oedipal nature. (It didn't help matters much when Goliath initially called him an abomination.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, July 22, 2004 09:48:12 PM
IP: 4.245.19.152

Queue reopening> bittersweet news to me, i'm glad we'll be able to posts for a time and that everyone will be able tog et their Gathering Journals in, but i KNOW theres gonna be some dumb/FAQ questions asked and i'm dreading the queue having any more of those... and it was nice to have one of my questions at the top of the queue for the past six months! : )

Double Jeopardy> Todd, are you sure X suspects Renard twice, i can't remember him suspecting twice, just once, i'm probably just forgetting though.
of all three of Thailog's "proud fathers" i'd be most afraid to be Xanatos. Thailog doesn't know where Goliath lives and Sevarius is protected by Xanatos and both Thailog and X know Sevarius is too valuable to lose... but Xanatos lives in plain sight, Thailog knows his way around the castle and probably the company, and X is probably the biggest threat to Thailog anyway... makes me wonder why Thailog wanted to kill Sevarius and Goliath...

matt
Thursday, July 22, 2004 09:11:51 PM
IP: 207.230.48.110

Greg Weisman's re-opening "Ask Greg" for the month of August. Just one word of advice, people: no frivolous or over-asked questions, please (as in "Why did Gargoyles go off the air?" or "When is Gargoyles coming back?"). We've too many of them in the queue as it is.

Watched my tape of "Double Jeopardy" this afternoon. The introduction of Thailog - who becomes a very inventive way of giving Goliath an illegitimate son in a way that can get past S&P.

Sevarius gets to show off just how hammy he is (I still get a kick out of his "Yes, you robbed me of my greatest creation" moment). Plus his "Typical, you do and do and do for them and they twist the knife in you".

As has been pointed out before a number of times, despite Hudson's question of whether Goliath even knows how to laugh maniacally, Goliath does indeed laugh maniacally in "Enter Macbeth".

Xanatos comments "I should have known that no copy could live up to the original" - and this is the last time that he makes any attempt at creating his own gargoyles in the series. (And after how Thailog turned out, who can blame him?)

Despite learning from Xanatos, Thailog definitely topped him in the villainy department. He delivers evil laughter, something that I don't recall Xanatos ever doing, and seems much more keen on killing his opponents just for the fun of it. Even Xanatos feels unnerved about his being out there by the end.

Another good bit: Owen saying as the helicopter takes off with Thailog "Is this a plan that you've neglected to mention?", and actually sounding hurt. (Continuity note: he reaches for the same hidden laser rifle that Xanatos was using in "Awakening Part Two".)

Xanatos considers Renard twice as a suspect; evidently he doesn't place too much stock in his father-in-law's belief in integrity. (Of course, when "Golem" came along later on, we discovered that even Renard couldn't always live up to it.)

And even the mercenary leader comments that something about Sevarius gives him the creeps....

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, July 22, 2004 07:18:45 PM
IP: 4.245.19.152

Todd wrote: One odd thing about the episode (most likely an animation error): the Hotel Cabal has the facade of a deserted hotel, but its neon sign is still turned on. You'd think that the Illuminati would want one of their operation sites to be a bit more low-key than that.

I think that is your error there Todd. I would think that an abandoned hotel would have problems. For example, would homeless people be sniffing around hoping to enter and make a temporary home there? A window gets broken, he enters...

Better I think to make the Hotel Cabal open, but so run down and delapitaded that no paying customer wants to enter. When someone does, a desk clerk could simply be there to shoo them away.


Ferratus
Thursday, July 22, 2004 05:50:58 PM
IP: 24.78.234.30

Todd wrote: "One odd thing about the episode (most likely an animation error): the Hotel Cabal has the facade of a deserted hotel, but its neon sign is still turned on. You'd think that the Illuminati would want one of their operation sites to be a bit more low-key than that."

This always struck me as a little odd too, since part of the whole idea of a cabal is to be secretive. Still, I like this episode. "You should see the dental plan." I just like the way he says that.

I also enjoyed Greg's "Jon Carter of Mars" reference in "Ask Greg." I remember reading it years ago...


Abby
Minneapolis, MN
Thursday, July 22, 2004 11:53:01 AM
IP: 161.225.1.12

Watched my tape of "Revelations" this afternoon. I still think that it's a pity that the Illuminati element didn't get continued in the series past this episode apart from the mention of Duval in "The Journey" (and a certain episode in the Goliath Chronicles largely infamous for introducing a certain foreign statesman whose name nobody here wants to ever see or hear again), and that, in particular, we never got a continuation of Matt's investigation of the Illuminati. (The mere discovery that Hacker had been one of them all along was just crying out for a sequel!)

I still get a kick out of the numbers on the hotel keys. Matt's is 13, which is very ironic in light of how it saves him and Goliath (so much for that superstition!). Mace Malone's is 23, a number that turns up quite a bit in conspiracy theories. (I once asked Greg Weisman if that was a reference to the significance of No. 23 in conspiracy theories; his response, of course, was "If I told you, I'd have to kill you.")

One odd thing about the episode (most likely an animation error): the Hotel Cabal has the facade of a deserted hotel, but its neon sign is still turned on. You'd think that the Illuminati would want one of their operation sites to be a bit more low-key than that.

As I've mentioned before, I've suspected ever since Greg revealed that Duval's the Fisher King (i.e., the guardian of the Holy Grail) that those rejuvenation drugs they give to the senior members of the Illuminati, such as Mace, could have some connection to the Grail. (Though the first time that I raised it, that led to the issue about whether the Grail would be lending its healing powers to a gangster like Mace.)

While we aren't told why the Illuminati are after the gargoyles (and still don't know, beyond the fact that it has to do with "control"), there are one or two lines in the episode that narrow the field down a little to one particular aspect: information. When Goliath first finds himself trapped in the Hotel Cabal and bellows "I want answers!", Mace Malone replies "So do we." And he explains a bit later on that the purpose of all those traps in the Hotel Cabal is to so wear down a victim's defenses that they'll wind up telling everything that they know to the Illuminati, their deepest, most closely-kept secrets. Both of these, together, suggest that what the Illuminati wanted out of Goliath was information of some sort. The big question is just what this information was.

This time around, I actually spotted Mace Malone's hotel key falling into the elevator shaft. I like the way that they were playing fair there in showing it (kind of like how, in "Legion", when RECAP is first zooming into the Golden Cup Building, we see Xanatos's scarab logo on the side if we look closely enough, preparing us for the revelation from Owen at the end that RECAP was a Xanatos product).

I wondered this time around what Elisa and Matt were doing driving on that lonely road out in the middle of nowhere; it definitely looked way outside the city. Anybody with better knowledge of New York City's geography or police procedure than I got any possible answers?

A few other memorable bits:

Elisa telling Matt about how he hasn't said three words all this time. Matt replies with "Let me drive."

Elisa explaining why she hadn't told Matt about the gargoyles; she liked being the only one in the know. (Which crops up again in "Mark of the Panther", of course.)

Voice acting trivia: Mace Malone was played by Efram Zimbalist Jr., who also did the voice of King Arthur in "The Legend of Prince Valiant" - appropriate, since Malone's a member of the Illuminati, and the Illuminati were founded by Sir Percival, who was one of King Arthur's knights. (He also did the voice of Alfred in "Batman:TAS", who was one of my favorite characters in that series.)

ASK GREG SIDE-NOTE: Greg Weisman got off another amusing quip in his answer to somebody's question about Matt telling Jon Canmore about Easter Island in "Hunter's Moon Part Two" (though it helps if you know your Burroughs a little).

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, July 21, 2004 07:14:47 PM
IP: 4.245.17.247

You can just go to paint, load your picture, and reduce it's size. I have an image program called ACDSee. Definately the best one i've seen. You can do tons of things with it. I'd definately recommend it.
Chris
Wednesday, July 21, 2004 09:38:45 AM
IP: 205.188.116.214

MATT - Well, I was saying "mountain lions" because that was the example that Greg Weisman used - so you'll really need to argue with him about them being maligned.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, July 21, 2004 07:38:23 AM
IP: 4.244.12.104

Hey, can you believe it? Our room block at the Delta Centre-Ville is over-filled, but they love us so much they're extending the availablity of the special convention rate AGAIN so they can see as many of us there as possible. So we're extending the pre-registration deadline by a few more days, as well. You now have until the 25th to pre-registered, and until the 30th to reserve your hotel room.

And stay tuned, because we hope to have some exciting news to announce in the next day or two.

5 days left to pre-register for The Gathering 2004 (deadline is July 20).
10 days left to reserve your hotel room at the Delta Centre-Ville (deadline is July 20 at noon).
16 days left until The Gathering 2004 in Montreal, Quebec!

Patrick - [<-- still time left to sign up for The Gathering!]
Wednesday, July 21, 2004 07:01:45 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Making thumbnails is easy. All you do is go into Photoshop, MS Paint, whatever, and save a smaller version of the picture (say 100x100 pixels). Then you open up the HTML file in notepad (better get used to viewing code because you'll have to muck with it more often than you'd like..) and insert this in place of the image:

<A HREF="http://www.yourhost.com/TheLargeImage.ext"><IMG SRC="http://www.yourhost.com/Thumbnail_Image.ext"></A> (not sure how this board will render this since I have no idea if HTML is allowed in posts or not, so if all you see is a broken image then I guess I'll have to give it another go. :) )

That will embed the thumbnailed image into your HTML document. When you click on the image, you'll be taken to the full resolution version.

Now, if you're going to be doing alot of HTML editing, I suggest you pick up a copy of "Using HTML" published by QUE. It is a VERY comprehensive book that gets very detailed, yet doesn't go way over your head. It'll take you from the beginners material all the way to some of the more advanced techniques. Most importantly, you'll be using CERTIFIED coding techniques so your web page will load exactly the same in any browser. Editors such as Frontpage are very poor choices as they tend to either use proprietary code (something Microsoft products are famous for), or slap in so many unnecessary tags that it takes two or three times as long to load vs doing it by hand in Notepad. The only WYSIWYG editor (What You See Is What You Get) worth its salt is Dreamweaver by Macromedia. The downside is that its on the expensive side (to me anyways). You're much better off using a simple text editor, such as Notepad, for your coding purposes.

If you've got any questions, bug me over ICQ or AIM.

ICQ: 168701920
AIM: Chris VG1

Vertigo1
TN, USA
Wednesday, July 21, 2004 02:19:12 AM
IP: 65.119.228.205

Nick>I use Microsoft Front Page to make my web page. It's real easy and allows you to do almost anything with little effort or knowledge in HTML and general web page making. It's expensive though. A little under $100.

One of my friends swear by Hot Dog, much like Front Page, but not as heavy price

Siren
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 09:39:59 PM
IP: 65.33.114.107

Chris> No offense taken at all. I wanted thumbnails as well, but have not figured out how to do it within freewebs. If I decide to get into this all the way, I'll go get web design for dummies or something. :)
Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 09:33:20 PM
IP: 66.220.75.114

Todd> who says mountain lions (aka cougars, pumas) are mindless beasts or unintelligent? hehehee

and just to throw in my two cents on some issues... i kinda wish the Gargs hadn't been reveiled to the generalm populace yet either...

matt
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 09:20:37 PM
IP: 207.230.48.80

No offense Nickerous, but i think that your site would be a lot better if you put your screenshots on individual pages with their thumbnails as links to them on the main page. I really like the fact that you put up pictures that arent on most other sites though. Just a thought.
Chris
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 08:58:38 PM
IP: 64.12.116.144

Well, I've put more images on my site. I'm up to 21 screenshots. Still looking for a home for the music videos. I played around with my Archmage video last night. I got it down to 2mb using windows9 compression, but the quality is soooo bad that I will not be uploading it. If it comes down to this compression is the only way I can upload the videos to a free site, then i won't be uploading them. At least not on a free site.

Anyway. Check out my images. Hopefully, I'll have a video up soon.

Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 08:03:47 PM
IP: 66.220.74.204

Double post again, sorry....Note to self to remember thing...

The true definition of "superhero" according to Websters is...

"a fictional hero having extraordinary or superhuman powers"

Pretty general. We could go into all year about OUR opinions on what MAKES one a superhero.

Siren
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 07:50:09 PM
IP: 65.33.114.107

Many people view some of the X-Men as beasts and aliens. Ones who aren't too bright and so on. Look at The Beast. He's a mutant, but people thought he was a bear, or bigfoot, or some other dark creature. Until he opened his mouth. Elisa didn't think for a moment Goliath could speak till he did.
Siren
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 07:47:24 PM
IP: 65.33.114.107

Ferratus - < Frankly, it comes across what it is, which is basically well meaning white guys giving a rather new age sermon on the importance of traditional aboriginal beliefs. > Boy, do you have it way off-base. I didn't feel it was preaching anything, except the importance of acknowledging your heritage in both cases. There are some shows out there which have done a horrible job with multiculturalism - Gargoyles isn't one of those. < The gargoyles saga was rooted in European folklore (though a rather sanitized Victorian version). In the world tour you got rather wierd stuff from all sorts of mythologies that didn't necessarily fit together.> Point 1. Greg Weisman has said his intent was to weave all mythos together within the gargoyles universe. Point 2. I think Gargoyles did a really good job of weaving things together without even slightly coming across as preachy.

There's a big difference between being respectfull and being preachy.

dph
ar, usa
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 07:23:31 PM
IP: 67.14.195.46

My point is that the public don't know that the gargoyles are actually intelligent beings, but think of them as mindless beasts, more like "mountain lions with wings". The unpopular super-heroes are at least recognized as being intelligent, and seen more as if they were human trouble-makers than wild animals.

(I might add that Nokkar, the Golem, and the Matrix are - so far as we can tell from the series - unknown to the general public at the time of "Hunter's Moon".)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 06:46:25 PM
IP: 4.244.18.145

Sorry for the double post but...


Being a superhero doesn't mean you are loved by all and appriciated by the city. X-Men, Batman and Spiderman are testaments to that. Like the media did to Gargoyles, painting them off as some freaks or alien beings. So has the X-Men, Spiderman, and Batman. They don't live in Metropolis afterall. Superman is one of the few heros most everyday citizens and the police really love. But by all accounts, X-Men, Spiderman, and Batman are still considered "superheros".

Siren
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 02:29:15 PM
IP: 65.33.114.107

Ferretus>I agree about them being superheros. There are different types of superheros though.

You have the aliens. Like Superman. From another planet or world.
Science. Those who are born human and normal, but because they like to play with their chemistry set too much, become something other then human. Like Spiderman and Hulk.
Mutation. Those who are born human with supernatural powers. X-Men obviously

And then you the Naturals. Daredevil and Batman. Normal men with extrordinary strength and skill, all due to training.

I think Gargoyles are natural. They are all born with the same amount of strength and skill and they train to keep that up or make it better, by protecting their homes.

Siren
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 02:26:18 PM
IP: 65.33.114.107

Heritage & Cloud Fathers: They're very distinct to me; Heritage is about Native American tradition and Cloud Fathers is about Elisa + her father.

I don't remember liking Heritage much, but Cloud Fathers is one of my favorites. Lots of good scenes, thought it was great when the skiff brings them into a swimming pool.
I could say more, but I'll save it for Todd's ramble on the episode.

Superheroes: I agree with Todd on this; the Gargs are just going to be seen as strange creatures/urban myths/etc.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 01:22:45 PM
IP: 65.244.171.25

I don't know how you can't regard the gargoyles as superheroes. They have powers beyond ordinary men, they go around the city looking for crooks to pound on, and have their own supervillains. They may not be viewed as heroes by the public, but in the Marvel universe only the Avengers and the Fantastic 4 are viewed as anything else than menaces to public safety.

However, whether the gargoyles are superheroes or not, I have to say that as soon as they went public, it went from "wierd earth" to "alternate earth". Plus, the universe now has a variety of superheroes outside of the gargoyles such as the Golem, Dingo/Matrix, and the alien Sentinel.

Ferratus
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 12:56:47 PM
IP: 24.78.234.30

I don't think that the gargoyles' being revealed to the public in "Hunter's Moon" counts as "public inclusion of super-heroes" because the public doesn't see the gargoyles as super-heroes, but simply some sort of weird creatures; it'd be more like discovering that alligators really do exist in the city sewers (except that alligators are a known quantity). (The Hunters come closer on the physical level to the super-hero concept, in that they possess much of the trappings - the double identity, the costumes, the equipment - though they're not super-heroes in the mental sense, in that they were hunting the gargoyles to settle a personal vendetta rather than to protect the city.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 07:09:25 AM
IP: 4.244.12.41

I rather dislike "Cloud Fathers" and "Heritage". Frankly, it comes across what it is, which is basically well meaning white guys giving a rather new age sermon on the importance of traditional aboriginal beliefs. It was heavy handed, a little patronizing too. Plus, they didn't research either very well.

Another complaint I would have is that it didn't really fit in with the rest of the gargoyles mythos. The gargoyles saga was rooted in European folklore (though a rather sanitized Victorian version). In the world tour you got rather wierd stuff from all sorts of mythologies that didn't necessarily fit together. I can certainly see a comic book universe where the theme is "ressurected mythology" but I don't know if Gargoyles was necessarily the vehicle to carry that burden alone. I think, in the end, it was just too much, too soon for one character (and the audience) to be exposed to. I mean, besides a whole slew of dumbed down mythologies and beleif systems we even got Nazis and Space Aliens for pete's sake. If they were going to build a full-fledged comic book universe, we might have done with more shows or perhaps with more characters than just the gargoyles themselves. I say it is a comic book universe because with the "Hunter's Moon" you essentially step out of a "this might be earth with secrets we don't know about" to a reality which is quite seperate and distinct from our own because of the public inclusion of superheroes.

Ferratus
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 04:19:55 AM
IP: 24.78.234.30

I was watching "Vows" tonight on TD and noticed an animation goof-up. When Goliath is carrying Demona (already knocked out by her younger self), while Goliath is telling Xanatos that he would leave him there if he wasn't afraid of what he would do, the old Demona's eyes are *OPEN*. However, when they arrive back in 1995 they're closed. After all the times I've watched this series from start to ending, I've never noticed that before.
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 12:27:45 AM
IP: 207.65.59.152

Demonskrye> No, your exactly right... Snow White came out on October 1, 2001, and within one hour sold 1.2 milone copies. (!) It was geared to wards halloween; I guess ANY marketing gimmick you can get helps, however, Snow White sold itself. It is the second leg of Disney's tripple crown (Mary Poppins and B&tB are the other two.)

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaMonday, July 19, 2004 11:54:32 PM
IP: 142.59.132.116

Trust in automatons>> This reminds me of a suprising result I learned in Ethics class. It turns out that many times when we perceive human judgement to be superior to mathematical analysis, the mathematical analysis can be demonstrated to be more reliable! Of course, this does not concern moral decisions, as the episode in question does -- after all, do the automata even have any sort of morality programmed in? I still think it's worth thinking about the limits of our perceptions and "common sence," though.
JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Monday, July 19, 2004 10:26:10 PM
IP: 4.247.137.58

DEMONSKRYE - I never thought that "Heritage" and "Cloud Fathers" were too similar, but it probably helps that they're at different ends of the Avalon World Tour; if they were closer together, then I suspect that they might look that way to me. But you do raise a point; both involve Native American mythology, including a trickster figure (though Raven's an enemy and Coyote's an ally), and both have an ally who starts off sceptical about his people's beliefs but finally accepts them. (Of course, "Cloud Fathers" has Xanatos around to make it all the more distinct from "Heritage", and a Xanatos who is as Xanatosian as ever; it's hard to dislike a guy who, after placing the protagonists in a trap, says "This is my first real stab at cliched villainy; how'm I doing?", or, about one of Coyote 4.0's blunders, "It's so hard to program good help these days.")
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 19, 2004 08:51:05 PM
IP: 4.244.12.41

A long-overdue post.

City of Stone> Aw phoo. I need and least two full nights and one partial for my story to work. Now all I've got for ideas is the one about Demona and her....well, that would spoil the surprise, wouldn't it? :) Anyway, in case anybody was curious, the aborted fanfic "Lost Time" would have dealt with one of those people who wasn't waking up once the spell was broken.

"City of Stone" aired right around the time when we were studying Shakespeare's "MacBeth" in AP English. While we didn't get the whole history, our excellent teacher did give us a bit of background on what really happened and I did notice that it seemed to jive with what I was seeing on Gargoyles. I also seem to recall that we were studying Arthurian legend around the time "Avalon" aired. My dates could be off a bit, but it was still pretty darn cool.

DVD release> I think an October release date was a reasonable assumption. In addition to the ten year anniversary date, I thought Disney might think the subject matter could make a good Halloween release. As I remember, "Snow White" came out on DVD around October, with a marketing campaign focused more on the wicked Queen and the apple. (If I'm wrong about this, someone please correct me.) So by process of elimination, I guess we can expect to see the DVD in November or December. Hopefully in time for the holidays.

"The Coming Battle"> I don't remember if I had any thoughts about when the battle might actually come. Buy it's, again, reasonable to expect a big event to be held off until the end of the season. Fortunately, Gargoyles excellent pacing as a series and several multiparters allowed for numerous big events.

Vogel> I admit it. I was fooled. I thought the designers were just being lazy. Of course, once the revelation of what was really going on came, I never doubted the character designers again.

Cloud Fathers> I caught this fairly recently on ABCFamily and something occurred to me. Does anyone else think that this episode is slightly weakened by "Heritage" or vice versa? They're such similar stories that one may make the other seem a little repetitive.

That Other Guy who comes out at Night> No complete "Gargoyles" on tape. No DVD for at least four months. What's a Demonskrye to do? Pick up a copy of "Batman: The Animated Series Volume 1" and wax nostalgic. I sometimes feel like there's a bit of animosity towards "Batman" in the Gargoyles fandom, possibly due to Greg and co. having to provide proof during development that Gargoyles wasn't just a Batman rip-off. But there's a lot of crossover between the two shows in crew and even a little cast. There's no denying that "Batman" opened the door for a darker kind of action-adventure cartoon. And darn it, I like 'em both! The DVD has a decent mix of extras: the good being commentary on two eps, some featurettes with cast and crew, and the original short promo that evolved into the intro; the bad being a useless "Tour of the Batcave" feature. If the Gargoyles DVD has that many features, I'll be satisfied, but no blown away.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye@aol.com]
Monday, July 19, 2004 08:28:48 PM
IP: 209.150.45.114

Watched my tape of "Outfoxed" today. After 7 episodes in a row focusing on the more fantasy-based side of the Gargoyles Universe (Fox becoming a werefox, time travel with the Phoenix Gate, the Weird Sisters, Demona and Macbeth, etc.), this one is more mundane/sci-fi (the only fantasy element in it being Goliath) - sci-fi, because of the important role played in it by the cybots (not just in the story, but thematically, as Goliath explains to Renard at the end about the inadvisability of placing one's trust in automatons rather than in living beings). Adds a good bit of balance to the series.

We definitely get a close look at Fox here (I particularly liked, this time around, her having a little fun with Xanatos over her doctor's call, saying "Didn't I mention it? Must have slipped my mind?"). It's embarrassing now the way that I never suspected that Fox and Renard were connected until the big revelation at the end, even though it's clearly hinted at earlier. Not just in the name, but also in the way that Fox talks about him in the judo match scene; she shows too much familiarity with his ways for him to be just a business rival. (And, of course, this is the ep where we learn that Alex is on the way.)

I still think that Vogel is probably the best practical joke that Greg played on the viewers - we think that they're just copying Owen, but then it turns out that actually Vogel's the real article and Owen the imitation!

Renard also emerges as a very effective character, with a great deal of presence (and a good voice actor). Maybe the scene between him and Goliath about the importance of integrity and taking responsibility for one's actions is a bit on the corny, but I still like it.

Goliath really comes across as intimidating here when he's growling at Vogel at the end. Remind me never to get on his bad side. :)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 19, 2004 07:18:17 PM
IP: 4.244.12.41

I just missed the top 10, but I don't care.

I got to see George Strait live last night and I still can't get over it!

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaMonday, July 19, 2004 10:49:24 AM
IP: 142.59.132.116

10th! Made it, just in time.
Babs
Monday, July 19, 2004 09:14:23 AM
IP: 68.80.222.40

9th.

A slightly naughty creativity demon that I just had about "City of Stone". As morning comes, several million New Yorkers "come to", to ask themselves two questions: "Why did we black out all last night, and why are we now covered in pigeon droppings?"

Now for my (slightly delayed) ramble on "High Noon".

As usual, this time around, I decided to keep a close eye on which Weird Sister says what. Pity that, due to an animation error, when they take over Desdemona, their hair's all the same color so that I couldn't tell them apart then. I did notice that it's the "mystic" Luna who explains about how you can only compel people to act against their true nature for a short while, and about how the three magical objects are what they'll need for "the coming battle".

I still get a bit of a kick out of Hudson's bewildered response to Elisa's use of the phrase "hit the sack".

A particularly nice touch: when Macbeth and Demona are leaving the clock tower in Macbeth's aircraft, Macbeth is talking about "our stolen cargo" being stowed away in the back, without being specific about what it is. I thought that that fitted in perfectly with the big deception practiced on both the gargoyles and the audience, where it looks as if they were after Coldstone, but their real target was the Grimorum, the Eye, and the Gate.

Another touch that I like: the moon shining over "Castle Wyvern" in cyberspace at the beginning turning into Coldstone's cybernetic eye on the outside.

We get a link to "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" with Hudson and Broadway learning how to read with the newspaper, and confronting Macbeth in the library (complete with Broadway saying "Look at all these books!" and Macbeth replying "And I know how to read them!").

We get our first real look at Demona's transformations from gargoyle to human and back again. (I still think that it's a pity that Macbeth misused the word "changeling" when applying it to Puck, though.)

Officer Morgan plays perhaps his biggest role in "Gargoyles" when he (unwittingly) helps Elisa muster up the courage to face Demona at Belvedere Castle. Too bad that he'll probably never know the true impact of his words that morning.

I still think that it was a good thing that Demona and the others were invisible to the passers-by at Belvedere Castle; given the way that she was dressed in her human form, there'd have been a great many cases of males so busy staring at her as they walked by that they'd collide with trees or lampposts. (Not to mention, since I noticed the yuppie couple among the passers-by, the prospect of Brendan staring at Demona and then suddenly noticing Margot glowering at him indignantly. Even better would be Margot proceeding to confront Demona face to face, leading to Marina Sirtis really earning her paycheck for that episode!)

A possible nit in this episode: when Iago takes over Coldstone at the end of Act One, we see him viewing Demona on a monitor screen programmed inside Coldstone with a little red sign flashing "Recognized: Demona" (or something like that). But Iago wouldn't actually know Demona's name; the only time that he'd been active since she received it was in "Legion", where Demona wasn't involved. (Maybe he got at Coldstone's memory banks and found out that Demona is what his rookery sister is calling herself nowadays?)

And he displays his lecherous streak again with his famous or infamous response to Demona and Elisa's battle: "Well, this is diverting."

The first time that I saw this episode, I thought that the "coming battle" was something that would take place around episode 65 (I don't know why); I was a little surprised (though pleased, as well) to see it coming along much sooner than that.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 19, 2004 07:34:36 AM
IP: 4.244.12.128

PATRICK>I have emailed the Gathering several times about my music video entries to make sure they got them, and NO ONE has given me an answer. Can you look into this????
Siren
Monday, July 19, 2004 07:07:24 AM
IP: 65.33.114.107

Lucky Number 007! Bond... James Bond.

If you've been procrastinating, the last minute is here.

2 days left to reserve your hotel room at the Delta Centre-Ville (deadline is July 20 at noon).
2 days left to pre-register for The Gathering 2004 (deadline is July 20).
18 days left until The Gathering 2004 in Montreal, Quebec!

Patrick - [<-- click for Gathering info!]
Monday, July 19, 2004 06:58:56 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

6th!
zess
Monday, July 19, 2004 05:05:43 AM
IP: 63.150.32.146

5th :D
Patricia Lovelady - [sabre0link@hotmail.com]
Montevallo, AL, USA
Monday, July 19, 2004 02:40:34 AM
IP: 216.77.181.48

4th!
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Monday, July 19, 2004 02:13:07 AM
IP: 207.65.59.168

3rd!!
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, July 19, 2004 12:21:15 AM
IP: 67.14.195.49

Second!
Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
Monday, July 19, 2004 12:03:37 AM
IP: 207.69.137.29

1ST
Siren
Monday, July 19, 2004 12:00:58 AM
IP: 65.33.114.107