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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending August 2, 2004

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yes it's me, monopolizing the CR.

i've added search term highlighting within search results. that should help people find exactly what they're looking for.

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Sunday, August 1, 2004 09:59:54 PM
IP: 68.239.55.241

Solipstatic: can you explain a little further about what you mean? I had modem users specifically in mind while creating the new AG system, so I'm curious why you think the new system is a greater burden on modem users versus the old one.

a) why would a user have to wait for a full minute for each answer to load? any modern browser is going to cache the images, javascript and stylesheets used to render the page. after that first visit, each subsequent node viewed results in only the html for that particualr node being transferred. the average size for each node's html is about 6k. the previous system had every question/answer on one page, resulting in a 100kb+ download for just the html. The old system's header image was 20k. This new one is 29k. So there's a 9k penalty (versus the old system) for that first visit. But as I said, that penalty is negated after the first page visit because that image will be cached. 10k (CSS) + 29k (image) + 6k (HTML) + 4k (javascript) = 49k total bytes transferred on the first visit. All subsequent visits will average 6k per visit. The time it takes for the page to load is dramatically decreased from the 100k+ per page visit that we had with the old system.

b) if a 56k user can't stay online for very long, you can bookmark the node your on before you leave. the next time you reconnect, you can load that bookmark back up and you'll be put into the latest responses spot where the node you left off on is, even if Greg adds new rambles or answers. So you don't even have to worry about navigating through the responses to find where you left off. (Note: This only works for the latest responses and unanswered questions pages).

Now what I suppose the source of your concerns is the inability to load up the entire list of responses. Download it all in one 100k shot, then you can go offline and take the time to read it. And for that, I absolutely see a reasonable concern. There is definately an advantage in being able to view all the nodes on a single page in some sort of digest form. That is something I will look into creating and putting up soon. The system you see online right now is by far NOT a "final" version. It is what I like to call an "active draft". I will be adding to it and making changes as time goes on. I still have several features I plan to implement soon. I say soon because with the Gathering right around the corner I probably won't get to much in the next couple weeks, but certainly in the month or two ahead you will see additions, changes, and (hopefully) worthwhile improvements.

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Sunday, August 1, 2004 09:20:34 PM
IP: 68.239.55.241

Ask Greg: Is anyone else concerned that the new mode of traversing "Greg's Latest Responses," while neat, is bad for anyone with a 56k connection who (a) might have to wait for up to a full minute for each answer to load, or (b) might not be able to remain online for very long?
Solipstatic
Sunday, August 1, 2004 08:56:20 PM
IP: 4.159.249.92

"Ask Greg" opened today and already we have several questions (two of which were submitted by myself). Fortunately, there aren't any "Why did the show end?" or "Will the show come back?" questions as yet (the last time that I checked), although there is one question about what Titania whispered to Fox. (People never grow tired of asking that one, do they?) And, unfortunately, a couple of questions that look so dangerously close to ideas that I'll have to delete them.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, August 1, 2004 08:49:54 PM
IP: 63.186.0.123

I guess I might as well just conform.

Battle Beast: Just press the "clear" button. That will reset your search on the unanswered queue. I'll edit the text of the button to say "clear results" or "clear search results" so that it's more obvious what that button does.

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Sunday, August 1, 2004 05:36:40 PM
IP: 68.239.55.241

Sorry to *BUG* you Gore, but I found that when I search something in the unanswered questions, I find I can't get back to the original queue. It will only go back to my search query... Like, I searched "morning" and when I clicked on unanswered again, it went back to my search query.

That is all i will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaSunday, August 1, 2004 05:19:11 PM
IP: 142.59.132.116

***BATTLE BEAST LAUGHS OUT FREAKIN' LOUD AT GOREBASH'S POST***

IT IS FREAKIN' FOUR YEARS ALMOST TO THE DAY LATTER!!!!

lOL LOL LOL LOL

LOL LOL LOL

THAT IS... LOL LOL LOL



THAT IS JSUT TOO DAMN FUNNY...


LOL LOL LOL ADNAUSIUM

Battle Beast
CanadaSunday, August 1, 2004 05:11:53 PM
IP: 142.59.132.116

I got nothing. It's 6am and I am fried.

The date thing is resolved. When parsing 2-number year values, 00 wasn't be treated as valid, thus year 2000 dates weren't showing up.

Also found another bug where for a small period of time in early 2000, AG was recording the year as 100 rather than 00. So I fixed that too.

Maybe now I can sleep.

Goreric
Sunday, August 1, 2004 06:04:18 AM
IP: 68.239.55.241

I'll divert from my usual color as it's too damn green in here.

I just found this and thought it'd be amusing to rehash, and you can click on my nick for the source,

Q: What did titania whisper into fox's ear at he end of the gathering part2
A: Do you think they'll be wondering about this in Ask Greg four years from now?

The question was posted 4 years ago this month, August 7th. The answer was posted on the 23rd, but it isn't being displayed. It looks like all dates prior to Jan, 2001 weren't recorded properly during the migration. I'll work on writing a script that will update that info from the old libraries, but that might not happen until after the Gathering.

Gorebash
Sunday, August 1, 2004 05:03:19 AM
IP: 68.239.55.241

that html appearing bug is fixed.
Eric - [eric@s8.org]
Sunday, August 1, 2004 02:39:49 AM
IP: 68.239.55.241

dph: good catch. that's just me trying to be too 'cute' in my code. the code that creates the "archives : <lib name>" heading also gets put into the title bar. That works great.. until you throw in HTML like that. I'll work on a fix.

Crimson Editor (http://www.crimsoneditor.com/) is a great text-editor. Syntax highlighting is only one (but very useful) of its many features. That's what I do most of my work in.

Eric
Sunday, August 1, 2004 02:29:25 AM
IP: 68.239.55.241

Also, if you look at the title of any of the pages you click on in the Archives Section of Ask Greg, html code is showing, with <a> , </a> , <span> , </span> being in every title.

I am using Mozilla 1.7 to view the pages, and yes, I took notice of you saying that you originally created alot of your pages in Editpad. Too bad, that software has been 'upgraded'; I really liked that simple text-based editor just the way it was without all the bells and whistles.

DPH
ar, USA
Sunday, August 1, 2004 02:16:01 AM
IP: 67.14.195.32

Thanks for the heads up dph. I fixed the link. Let me know if you find any others.
Eric - [eric@s8.org]
Sunday, August 1, 2004 02:06:52 AM
IP: 68.239.55.241

Umm, I need to spell that out. The link on http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/ to the archives in this sentence "So I may occasionally refer a frequently asked question to those archives." doesn't work.
dph
AR, USA
Sunday, August 1, 2004 02:01:19 AM
IP: 67.14.195.32

I know you probably don't want to hear this, but the link to Archives doesn't work. :-(
DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, August 1, 2004 01:59:10 AM
IP: 67.14.195.32

Re: New "Ask Greg"

Looks nice!! Good job. :)

Leo
Sunday, August 1, 2004 12:59:06 AM
IP: 68.231.241.236

That went almost TOO smoothly.

The new Ask Greg system is online and AG is accepting questions once again.

Please make special use of the new search feature before you post your questions. The number of questions we get that have already been answered is fairly large. It'd really help everybody if you do a little homework before asking a question. The fewer repeat questions, the quicker Greg can get to, and answer, questions.

If you run into any problems using the new Ask Greg system, please e-mail me and give me any and all information that you can on your problem(s).

Thanks

Eric - [eric@s8.org]
Sunday, August 1, 2004 12:36:20 AM
IP: 68.239.55.241

I'm closing AG for the next hour or two as I upgrade to the new AG system. Best time would be 30mins. 1hr avg. 2hrs if I'm having problems.
Eric - [eric@s8.org]
Sunday, August 1, 2004 12:01:10 AM
IP: 68.239.55.241

not long til Ask Greg reopens... i hope we don't regret this, i hope GREG doesn't regret this...
matt
Saturday, July 31, 2004 11:41:17 PM
IP: 207.230.48.44

BATTLE BEAST - I've said this before, but I still can't help wondering whether Xanatos's little quip about Macbeth having died for him on this job was a motivating factor in Owen deciding to stick his hand into the Cauldron, as a way of showing how he could make sacrifices for Xanatos as well.

MATT - I was also half-expecting (especially after I saw the title "The Price") Hudson to die in this episode. Funny how that works.

Saw my tape of "Avalon Part One" today. Some comments on this one.

I've sometimes wondered since what the book was that Goliath stayed home at the clock tower to read. Pity that we'll never know. (And I seriously doubt that he was able to finish it before Elisa arrived to tell him about Tom.)

I liked Tom's arrival in New York, particularly where he gives the three street thugs the surprise of their lives, and when he's yielding himself to Officer Morgan (actually doing so in the formal fashion, kneeling before him and offering up his sword with both hands), recognizing Morgan as a fellow guardian.

The return of the eggs came as a big surprise to me. I'd assumed all along that the gargoyles that hatched from those eggs were long-since gone, thanks to the thousand year interval. I wonder if anybody in the audience had, before this episode came out, expected them to do anything at all with the eggs. (Of course, when you stop to think it over, they'd have had to bring up the eggs again at some point, since otherwise why would they have been introduced into the series? They didn't impact the plot of "Awakening", after all; you could omit the eggs from that story without any difficulty - which, I recall, the video version of "Awakening" did.)

The flashback to Scotland in 994 and 995 was a favorite of mine. In particular, it introduced the viewers to a new piece of early Scottish history. Everybody's heard of Macbeth in some form (at least, I hope so, although in light of what they're saying about cultural literacy going downhill these days....), even if only from the Shakespeare version of him, but how many people have heard of Kenneth and Constantine, apart from the experts on 10th century Scotland? I know that I hadn't. While I watched "Avalon Part One" for the first time, however, I pulled out a small booklet that I have on the family trees of the kings and queens of England and Scotland, and was able to, in the page on the early Scottish monarchs, locate Kenneth and Constantine, to my utter delight. I even proceeded to look up everything that I could find on them (which wasn't much, alas, due to the poor documentation for this period) at the local library. (Now this is what I consider the true mark of an educational series, if it gets you actually looking those things up and reading about them.)

For a character who would appear in only one episode, Constantine made a great villain. One of my favorite touches is his cunning in getting Kenneth into the drying-house, all alone. He persuades Finella to tell him there, rather than in the great hall, that she wants to marry Constantine rather than the King, so as to spare him the pain and humiliation of his suit being rejected by her in front of his nobles and court. He even makes the precise location seem like something that he'd just thought of on the spur of the moment, as if he only suggested it because he was standing next to it at the time. Very shrewd indeed.

Maol Chalvim displays his suspicions of Constantine all along. While he gets good marks for judgement of character, I fear that there may be another element involved. We know from Greg (and history) that Maol Chalvim himself comes to the throne in 1005 through an act of usurpation of his own (murdering Kenneth III, Kenneth II's nephew - and, incidentally, Bodhe's father and Gruoch's grandfather); could much of Maol Chalvim's suspicions towards Constantine be based, not just on perceptiveness, but also on a case of "I suspect him of treachery because that's what I'd do in his place"? (I find myself particularly recalling now Elisa's remark in "Protection" about how the corrupt are always the first to believe that others can be corrupted.)

Maol Chalvim doesn't seem to like gargoyles much. He considers Katharine daft for treating the eggs as if they were human children. I wonder if he passed on some of this attitude to his grandson Duncan.

Another scene that I like: Constantine's coronation, on the Stone of Destiny like Macbeth (though out in the courtyard, rather than in the great hall as was Macbeth's case). Princess Katharine, reluctantly doing him homage, says "I pledge my allegiance to the crown". I find myself thinking that she phrases it that way as if to make it clear that she's pledging her loyalty to the kingship rather than to the individual currently holding the kingship. I also like the Magus's indignant response to Constantine wishing to marry Katharine (Tom and Mary have to physically hold him back), and Constantine's setting the date for the wedding at Michaelmas (a very important date on the medieval calendar, but now almost forgotten).

In the encounter with the Weird Sisters, it's Luna who mentions the rules about all human magics forbidden on Avalon. She's definitely the Sister most suited for making that revelation.

Mary and Finella's departure with the Grimorum reminds me of one of the leading cases (in my opinion) of how the Gargoyles Collective Sub-conscious works. Christine Morgan, in her fanfics, had Mary and Finella transported to the modern-day U.S. after they left Avalon, with the Grimorum, which would then find its way from their hands to Xanatos's (while Finella gets married and becomes Aiden's mother). And now we know that Greg Weisman had a similar plan for them, although making Brooklyn and the Phoenix Gate responsible for the transition (Christine had the magic of Avalon be responsible for sending Mary and Finella forward in time instead). And Christine came up with this idea before Greg made that revelation. Amazing, isn't it?

I also wonder what everyone in the audience thought when Tom was reporting that the Archmage was attacking Avalon, in light of the fact that we all thought at the time that he'd died in 984. I know that it definitely surprised me.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, July 31, 2004 07:19:58 PM
IP: 63.186.0.72

I don't know nothing about nothing.

But I hear that there's a slim chance that with the move to open AG to questions again tonight, a larger upgrade to AG may also be in store. So if AG is inaccessible for a time this evening, it may be that the upgrade is taking place.

Mister E. - [eric@s8.org]
Saturday, July 31, 2004 07:19:50 PM
IP: 68.239.55.241

D. Taina-Hope you don't mind me putting in my 2 cents.
The line about Hudson from Lex "he's forgotten more than we'll ever know" basically meaning he's very wise. The old phrase applies "With age comes wisdom", and to say "he's forgotten more than we'll ever know" is that, even with what he may have forgotten, he still wiser than Lex feels he'll ever be. Basically, it's most definately a compliment to Hudson's wealth of knowledge. Goliath knows it too, since he was very reluctant to take command when Hudson offered it. With the loss of his eye, Hudson was losing confidence in himself as a warrior-despite that, he's still very wise-and Goliath always relies on his wisdom. (Hudson proved that to Xanatos in the very same episode). "It's not how long you live, it's what you do with the time you have", "when all your scheming's done, what will your legacy be, Xanatos". (Sorry if i butchered the quotes, I haven't seen a complete Garg ep in a looong time-and still love the show as much as I ever did) ^_^

Anyway, that's my take on it. Sorry for buttin' in.

Wingless
Saturday, July 31, 2004 06:57:38 PM
IP: 24.157.218.68

Matt: "my one problem with the episode is something i'm hoping someone here can help me figure out. when the Clan is all standing around "Hudson's" shattered remains and talking about him, Lexington says something like "Hes forgotten more than we'll ever know." what is that about? is Lex saying Hudson is forgettful? i was always confused by that statement, maybe i'm just missing something, but it doesn't seem like the sort of thing you say about a fallen friend (and in this case, Rookery Father) [...]"

I don't think he was saying he's forgetful. I think Lexington was saying that Hudson had learned so much over the years, and of course, you forget things as time goes by (everyone does), and the clan can never hope to learn all that Hudson knew, including what he's forgotten.

Did that make any sense?

D. Taina
Saturday, July 31, 2004 06:31:30 PM
IP: 172.141.89.142

The Price> yes, its one of my favorites too, for many of the reasons mentioned. i loved the animation, the story, everything. when i first saw the "Previously on Gargoyles" feature i thought that just maybe there might be a multi-parter coming up where Hudson was gonna die. i was wrong, but up until we saw the real Hudson with Xanatos i was in total suspense. one of my favorite animation sequences of the show is the evening where the all are waking up one by one and then the camera gets to Hudson and... nothing.

my one problem with the episode is something i'm hoping someone here can help me figure out. when the Clan is all standing around "Hudson's" shattered remains and talking about him, Lexington says something like "Hes forgotten more than we'll ever know." what is that about? is Lex saying Hudson is forgettful? i was always confused by that statement, maybe i'm just missing something, but it doesn't seem like the sort of thing you say about a fallen friend (and in this case, Rookery Father) and speaking of, the reason Goliath looks at Hudson like a father is because Hudson is one of Goliaths Rookery Fathers. hes also a Rookery father to the Trio.

matt
Saturday, July 31, 2004 05:52:27 PM
IP: 216.178.8.55

FINALLY!

THE PRICE> This is one of my favorite episodes.

Number one, Xanatos wants to be immortal, be he can never achieve it. So he uses Hudson to try out his "Oversized chamber pot," but to no avail.

Xanatos sees Hudson as a doddering old quack who is useless to the clan. But what Xanatos doesn't know is that Hudson has age but also WISDOM. Hudson knows how to dead with situations that the younger Gargoyles wouldn't.

Hudson does watch a lot of TV, and he also has aches and pains as any senior would, But HELL, he went TOE TO TOE with DEMONA. Only Goliath could also do that. At what? 65 years old? TOE TO TOE with Demona? Don't tell me Hudson is useless if he can go ROCKY on in-her-prime Demona and get a draw and even a NEAR WIN.

Xanatos underestimates Hudson. He is obviously impressed when Hudson uses his skin to attack the Robot, and when knocks down Owne and Xantos, Xanatos is REALLY surprised.

I also like how Hudson tells off Xanatos. Basically, "Have your immortality, if you want to, but when it's my time to die, it's my time. I've lived a good, long life."

I also like the comment, "Macbeth has died for me twice, what have you done for me Owen?" (It soo true, even though Macbeth is a robot.)

This episode also shows just how the Gargoyles feel about Hudson. YOu really get the feeling that Goliath Loves hims like a father (To some extent is true, but I mean like HIS father).

You've also got to admit that Elisa is a DAMN GOOD shot. She hits that ONE INCH rope from a a mile away and makes the crate fall to save Broadway. How did she know that the crate contained carpets? It could have contained stoves or tredmills.

I LOVE the look Goliath gives Hudson after the powder was thrown on him. GREAT ANIMATION. CLASSIC. FUNNY.

FINALLY, I love how Hudson takes his face and says, "It's not every day a man can recalim his face when he's lost it."

GREAT EPISODE.

That is all I will say.



Battle Beast
CanadaSaturday, July 31, 2004 11:31:27 AM
IP: 142.59.132.116

>Why don't they show the episode "Deadly Force" on ToonDisney?
>Krista

Actually, they did start airing it again after ABC Family aired the edited version.

Vertigo1
TN, USA
Friday, July 30, 2004 09:46:39 PM
IP: 207.65.41.177

First off, a bit of bad news: although I've already got a membership for the 2004 Gathering (it was a Christmas present from a friend), I'll have to have it be a supporting membership, since I won't be able to go to Canada this year. I'll have to be content with attending in spirit. Sorry, everyone.

I watched my tape of "The Price" today. This is a particularly fun one, because of all the deceptions from the writers to the audience in it, deceptions which (the first time that I saw the episode) I initially swallowed whole!

1. I believed at first that Hudson really had been petrified by Macbeth. (It wasn't too difficult for them to pull off that deception, in light of the Magus turning the gargoyles to stone in "Awakening".)

2. I thought that the reason why Macbeth had "come back from the grave" was because of his link with Demona, so naturally Goliath couldn't kill him. His turning out to be a robot startled me. (Though I'd been a bit suspicious about his behavior anyway; for one thing, Macbeth didn't seem likely to hunt gargoyles just to provide himself with trophies. It sounded more like the sort of thing that the Pack would do. And I'd gotten rather fond of Macbeth by this time, after "City of Stone".)

Of course, the episode had even more to it than that, thanks to the good insight into Hudson, Xanatos, and Owen. We get to see Xanatos's desire to be immortal, Hudson's turning out to be not as worn-out as he fears he is (and displaying some great wisdom, especially when he talks about the sort of immortality that's worth having), and Owen's loyalty, to the point where he winds up with a stone hand for life. (That bit really got me - although I paid more attention to the stone hand than to the fact that all that Owen was doing was staring at that stone hand - which is now clearly a clue about his true nature.)

Another nice touch: when Owen tells Xanatos about the latest report from Macbeth, he pauses for a moment before saying "Macbeth", as if to hint that this isn't the real Macbeth who's after the gargs.

In a reversal of "Deadly Force", Elisa saves Broadway's life with her gun. (I wonder if that reversal was deliberate on the production team's part or not.)

Some final fun bits:

Xanatos's ingenious method of getting his hands on a bit of Hudson's stone skin (another one of those reasons why it's hard to dislike the guy).

Hudson wins his freedom but doesn't bother destroying the Cauldron; he doesn't object to Xanatos having the Cauldron, only to Xanatos using him as a guinea pig for it. How often do you see one of the good guys in an animated adventure series letting the villain keep the magical object?

Some good shots of a snowy New York. (It's nice to see the occaional change of seasons in the series.)

All in all, a delightful episode (except maybe from Owen's perspective).

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, July 30, 2004 07:13:19 PM
IP: 63.186.1.111

To Disney, No Blood = No Real Damage. You can throw as many villains you want off a cliff, but you can't knife them in the shoulder if it'll cause them to visibly bleed. (Gargoyles actually did show blood on a few other occasions, and not all of them were plot points like how Owen got Goliath's blood to clone it. More points for them.)

Hence why to tone down the "injury" aspect of Gargs, most of the weapons we see fired (thanks to Xanatos) are laser rifles. Now, if those were commonplace on the real streets and we had an visual index for knowing how badly they cauterize flesh, etc., they probably would have found something else.

Lynati
Friday, July 30, 2004 05:45:14 PM
IP: 65.66.151.125

But all that martial arts on those episodes of "Power Rangers" that Toon Disney shows now, that isn't too violent, no...
Patrick
Friday, July 30, 2004 05:40:08 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

KRISTA - The folks in charge of Toon Disney apparently thought that Elisa being shot by Broadway was too violent.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, July 30, 2004 07:51:12 AM
IP: 63.186.0.13

I believe the hotel's cancellation policy requires a minimum 24 hours notice or you'll be charged for the first night, but you should verify that with them directly. As far as room availablity goes, our guaranteed block was filled weeks ago and you're already competing with the general public. If you wait until after noon today, however, you'll also be paying the standard published rates if a room is available instead of the convention discount rate.

Today is the LAST DAY to reserve a hotel room at the Delta Centre-Ville. The deadline is TODAY, July 30, at NOON Eastern Time.

And there is just one week left - that's 7 days - until The Gathering 2004 in Montreal, Quebec!

Patrick / The Gathering - [<-- be there or be an equilateral, right-angled parrallelogram]
Friday, July 30, 2004 07:24:42 AM
IP: 66.93.14.153

Sloth> what am i? the Comment Room janitor?
matt
Friday, July 30, 2004 06:53:04 AM
IP: 207.230.48.88

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>

Matt> Glad to be back, and likewise. I trust you've been keeping things clean here.

Alex> Mucho Thanks! I've sent a reply

Patrick> Now, here's hoping I'll get an answer by noon tomarrow (isn't pushing the deadline to the last second a wonderfull feeling? :^D), but I was wondering, should there be any trouble in cancling a reservation after it's made? See, I'm still looking at other options of places to stay and so I don't want to commit myself to $170 for 2 nights if I can avoid it. And what chances are there in getting a room after the closing date, would I still be vieing for a room in the "gathering wing" or would I be compeating with the rest of the commoners?

<EXIT LORD SLOTH>

Lord Sloth - [nibor_niwri@hotmail.com]
Kingston, ON, Canada
Friday, July 30, 2004 12:49:56 AM
IP: 216.185.90.94

Why don't they show the episode "Deadly Force" on ToonDisney?
Krista
Thursday, July 29, 2004 10:28:34 PM
IP: 68.116.254.201

I've been reading Greg Weisman's ramble about the first two seasons of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" at "Ask Greg". Quite a lot of fun (including his speculation - which I've shared myself - that Whistler was originally supposed to have the role in "Angel" that Doyle filled instead).

I find myself reminded of Greg's wish to get to write for the animated version of "Buffy", which could still be fulfilled now that the series is going to be made after all. Does anybody besides me suspect that if Greg did get to write an episode of "Buffy: the Animated Series", it would involve living gargoyles of some sort turning up in Sunnydale? ;)

Watched my tape of "The Cage" today. One thing that I picked up on (I can't remember now whether I'd noticed this before) was that Talon's eyes glow white when he's angry, the same as with a gargoyle. (It must come from the panther DNA, since the Mutates didn't have any gargoyle DNA in them.)

Sevarius and Xanatos were both as scheming, yet entertaining, as ever. Favorite bits of mine include:

Xanatos telling Talon at the beginning that it really isn't necessary to go at Goliath like that, since he and Elisa are always welcome at the castle. (Does this man have chutzpah, or what?)

Sevarius's "I really hate having someone looking over my shoulder. Oh, wonderful, now there's two of you."

Xanatos's "He's the scientist. You're just the experiment. Oh, hello, Goliath, almost didn't see you there."

Another bit that I only really noticed this time around. When Brooklyn speaks to Maggie, he says to her, "You know that I wanted to be - ". He pauses for a moment, then adds "your friend". I thought that the pause was a nice touch.

One of the biggies, of course, is Goliath kidnapping Sevarius and Elisa explaining to him that that wasn't the right way of going about it, but I don't have anything new to say about it this time, so I'll have to let it go at that.

I still really like the Maza family reunion at the end.

And Greg's right; the future Labyrinth does seem a lot more tidy than it realistically ought to be in that scene, with all those lamps around in particular.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, July 29, 2004 07:14:43 PM
IP: 63.186.1.12

FAMILY GUY> I have mentioned this several times, but Family SEASON 1/2 has sold over 1.2 mil and the second one is nearing the 1 mil mark. (It was the best selling TV DVD in 2003.)

FAMILY GUY will start airing in july, 2005. YAH!!! And also on the topic, go to:

http://www.american-dad.com

to download the first five minutes of the pilot episode! (Also created by seth McFarlane!


GARGOYLES DVD> I emailed the guy at DISNEY DVD http://www.ultimatedisney.com/ and asked if he knew about the GARG DVD and he siad he only heared rumors. So I told his wheat we know, and he's got it posted now. ALL RIGHT!

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaThursday, July 29, 2004 03:29:05 PM
IP: 142.59.132.116

Z>> The first collection -- seasons 1 and 2 -- sold upwards 1 million copies, the third season DVDs sold about 700,000 copies.

If Disney markets effectively, I think Gargoyles DVD sales could be pretty high -- though cutting Gargoyles back to only one showing on ABC Family Jetix/weekend (Sat. 11:30) won't help *grumblegrumble*. It also comes to us to make sure the DVD is well-advertised. I run into one-time fans of the show constantly, so the market to sell these things in high volumes is out there.

Patrick>> Christmas, Chanukah, please-give-me-a-good-grade day (one of my prof's is a mega Trekkie and would certainly enjoy the Gargoyles voice talent line-up), etc. The list is long.

Lord Sloth>> I'm going right by Kingston en route to the Gathering and have room for one more - sent you an e-mail.

Alex Garg - [alex_garg@yahoo.com]
VA, USA
Thursday, July 29, 2004 03:00:04 PM
IP: 68.163.67.203

Leo > Get any closer to saying it and I will have to hurt you.

Z > What are you talking about, it won't sell as well? We're all going to buy multiple copies of the "Gargoyles" DVD and give them as Christmas presents! Right, everyone? :: glances around the fandom ::

Ahem... anyway...

There are only 2 days left to reserve your hotel room at the Delta Centre-Ville (deadline is July 30 at NOON Eastern Time).

There are only 8 days left until The Gathering 2004 in Montreal, Quebec!

Patrick
Thursday, July 29, 2004 12:56:37 PM
IP: 66.93.14.153

Lord Sloth> hey Slothie, welcome back, you've been missed!

Xanatos's reform> well, i look at it this way, Goliath was content to live in the Castle under Katherine's rule 1000 years ago and she was much worse to the Gargoyles than Xanatos ever was, at least Xanatos recognizes them as intelligent beings and respects them, and Xanatos can always find a use for them. i think Goliath knows that while he needs to keep his eye on Xanatos, he can trust him not to betray or destroy him.

matt
Thursday, July 29, 2004 07:34:03 AM
IP: 207.230.48.45

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>

AHHH! I'm freaking out. I'm FrEaKiNg OuT!! <Rushes over to the long neglected table and devourers several handfuls of cookies> Ah, that's better, though I'm still freaking.

Explanation: I've finally come to my senses and realized that I simply MUST go to this year's gathering. Though it is obviously that this is the most practical time for me to go (bout a three hour journey I believe) I've been putting it off until just now (when I saw the reservation deadline and that Keith David was there for the whole time!). Part of it is I haven't been thinking about Gargs as forcibly as I have in the past; I still check Ask Greg and the like, but it's been somewhat halfhearted since my mind as been dwelling amongst another very awesome show, namely Farscape (I recommend everyone watch it, especially the Mini Series that heralds it's return on October 17th). I never did forgot how swell Gargoyles is, I just craved something new for awhile.

Now I remember how much I craved to go to New York in 2001, fairly soon after I found this site, and I'm suddenly all revved up again. I imagine it would likely be well over $300 for just travel, admittance and a single room at the hotel, so I'm suddenly wondering just how many of ye are going and if any of you whom I'm simi-aquanted with have space in their room and are willing to share and split the cost. Sorry if this comes as an inconvenience at this time, but it would be very helpful and appreciated, otherwise I might want to look elsewhere for a place to stay.

But I'm quite certain I'm going to do it this time, after all I've been working all year with little spending, so I think my college funds ought to survive. There are simply too many reasons why I should go to this. I just need a bit more information on my options before I make any reservations by Friday.

Oh, and great to see yall again; though the room has seen fuller days, it's been worse too. Not much seems to change around here whenever I'm able to keep up to date, and, for the most part, I think that's a good thing. Cheers.
<Lord Sloth gives his much bigger Wyvern a swift grooming and departs>

<EXIT LORD SLOTH>

Lord Sloth - [nibor_niwri@hotmail.com]
Kingston, ON, Canada
Thursday, July 29, 2004 01:47:41 AM
IP: 216.185.94.73

Does anyone know how many DVD's Family Guy sold? I doubt Gargoyles would sell anywhere near as many as Family Guy, but I'm just curious as to how many Family Guy sold since it apparently was enough to get it back on the air.

As for Xanatos's repentence, I never had any problem with it. As Todd mentioned, the extermination of the clan hadn't been the object of his plans for quite some time. They were merely pawns in his schemes or unintended adversaries. He owed them his life after "City of Stone" and "Double Jeopardy" as well as his son's life at the end of "The Gathering" and again at the end of "Hunter's Moon". That's a pretty legitimate cause for reform. Then again, I doubt even after all of that he'd be squeaky clean. But unfortunately we never got to find out, did we?

Peace

Z
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 11:42:13 PM
IP: 67.66.159.238

Skirting the edge of disaster, aren't you, Leo?
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 07:01:03 PM
IP: 63.186.1.91

Patrick:> Re: "He Who's Name Must Never Be Spoken Repeatedly Ever Again"

Hmmm, What was Dr. Spengler's (from "Ghostbusters") first name?

*wonders what that strange clicking sound coming from inside my head is..* Huh, it went away. Must have come down of the *PAX*il too quickly.

>XD

*Runs away cackling evily*

Leo
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 04:33:48 PM
IP: 68.231.241.236

Slow room this week.

I think Xanatos made a pretty shrewd tactical move in "Hunter's Moon." He didn't lose a worth adversary... he gained a crack security detail for his new family.

There are only 3 days left to reserve your hotel room at the Delta Centre-Ville (deadline is July 30 at noon).

There are only 9 days left until The Gathering 2004 in Montreal, Quebec!

Patrick - [<-- link to... oh go on... guess]
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 12:38:31 PM
IP: 66.93.14.153

I don't think that Xanatos's "repentance" was that big of a problem. First of all, the "repentance" consisted only of making peace with the gargoyles. Xanatos didn't say anything about having given up his schemes in general (such as trying to become immortal or taking things that he wanted from rival corporations). I suspect that he'd be still doing it (although taking a bit more care to make certain that Goliath and his clan didn't find out, now that they're living in the castle with him).

And making peace with the clan wasn't that incredible. For a start, after Season One, Xanatos wasn't going after the gargs quite as much as he originally had been. He only made one attempt to capture a gargoyle in Season Two (Hudson in "The Price"); apart from that, all of his schemes involving the gargoyles were ones where his real objective didn't involve the clan; at most, they were merely unwitting pawns (as in "Leader of the Pack" where Xanatos's real goal in having the Pack broken out of jail was to get a parole for Fox and the gargs were just a diversion). He had no real reason to capture them when it was clear that they wouldn't be his henchmen, and there were certain advantages to having them at liberty (both in the sense that they provided excellent "guinea pigs" whenever he'd developed a new device and needed to test it to see which parts of it worked well and which parts of it needed improving, and in that they made useful allies when he needed help with an important task such as getting the Eye of Odin away from Fox before it killed her or breaking a spell of Demona's that was turning everyone in Manhattan to stone). And after Goliath had stopped Oberon from taking Alex away to Avalon, Xanatos was sincerely grateful for him for doing it. It would make sense that he'd display his gratitude by giving the gargoyles a new home after the destruction of the clock tower.

I don't think that it was a full-scale repentance, and I'm certain that it would have been clearer had Greg Weisman gotten to do the full third season. He'd still be scheming; it's simply that his schemes would no longer be directed against the gargoyles. (I'm certain that he'd be engaged in some battles of wits with Thailog and the Illuminati.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, July 27, 2004 07:11:47 PM
IP: 63.186.0.152

I've always thought "Hunter's Moon" was one of the series' high points. The first low point was when the credits rolled on the second episode of The Goliath Chronicles and Greg Weisman's name wasn't there. The lowest point was the appearance of He Who's Name Must Never Be Spoken Repeatedly Ever Again later on that same season.

4 days left to reserve your hotel room at the Delta Centre-Ville (deadline is July 30 at noon).
10 days left until The Gathering 2004 in Montreal, Quebec!

Patrick - [<-- the omnipresent Gathering link]
Tuesday, July 27, 2004 12:42:04 PM
IP: 66.93.14.153

does anyone think that Xanatos' repentence was too forced? This has been considered one of the series low points.
Anonymous
Tuesday, July 27, 2004 10:55:44 AM
IP: 81.155.163.223

Bit of a site update, new pic in the Annex!

Where is this year going? Egad!
Christine - [< -- site update!]
Tuesday, July 27, 2004 12:44:27 AM
IP: 67.136.147.160

Infection>>If the gargoyles are porous in stone slumber, there would be plenty of pathogens who could simply wait dormantly through the day until their victims reawaken, if they could reach the inside of the body. This would only work if the natural healing did not also eliminate the pathogens, though. However, since gargoyles are concerned about dressing wounds (some like the Guatemalan gagoyles even using antiseptics), I would think that this is the case.

BTW, developing/discovering medicine and first aid would be another way in which intelligence would help the gargoyles. Another "tool," if you will.

JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Tuesday, July 27, 2004 12:30:25 AM
IP: 4.247.131.31

This sounds silly but did anyone else think that Keith David had a weird way of pronouncing the word "parents" in Gathering pt 2? Kind of like "peerance."
suilad
okla city
Tuesday, July 27, 2004 12:22:38 AM
IP: 68.12.196.86

Gathering pre-registration is now closed, and we've entered the final stretch.

5 days left to reserve your hotel room at the Delta Centre-Ville (deadline is July 30 at noon).
11 days left until The Gathering 2004 in Montreal, Quebec!

Patrick
Monday, July 26, 2004 10:13:15 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

I think that the theory that Owen's "surface explanation" for cleaning Goliath's wound is correct. Note that, in "The Green", when Bronx was wounded in the fight with Jackal and Hyena, Goliath initially thought that it would be a simple matter of "once the sun rises, he'll be healed", but the Mayan gargoyles pointed out that the wound could get infected before that, and so treated his injury with the pollen and leaf.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 26, 2004 06:53:46 PM
IP: 4.245.21.146

Gargoyle Beast Evolution> I remember Greg mentioning that garg beasts may well have some little vestigial wing bones hidden in their skeletons. Though I was thinking it might be amusing if prehistoric garg beasts had a third pair of legs instead of wings. Like the wings, the would have eventually disappeared due to general uselessness.

"Protection"> I haven't watched it in several years, but this was one of my least favorite "Gagroyles" episodes. (There's only two.) I felt that the writers were assuming that the audience was just as confused about what Elisa was up to as Goliath and Broadway were. It seemed like a rather feeble plot device that kept me from enjoying the rest of the episode. Still, as a low point, it outshines many series's high points.

Prehistoric Gargoyle Creative Development>

Here's a theory:

So we know that before humans developed tools capable of smashing stone, gargoyles were pretty much on the top of the food chain. While this mostly eliminates the idea that smaller-brained individuals would fall prey to a predatory species, they still could become victims of their own lesser intelligence. (Tasting the interesting colored mushrooms, provoking a potentially dangerous animal, etc.) Plus, a clan based lifestyle - possibly started to aid in hunting or protect vulnerable eggs - might have favored gargoyles who were more capable of communicating. So early gargoyles could have evolved towards bigger brains without having to elude predators.

But how would creativity and culture develop if they weren't necessary for survival? Well, let's think about those big-brained prehistoric gargoyles, sitting comfortably at the top of the food chain. Since they don't need shelter from the elements, their primary concerns are food, water, and reproduction. It may not be an easy existance, but there is going to be some down time. So early gargoyles need to find some recreation. Play fighting would be useful in training young hunters. But even this primative life would have its ups and downs and proto-gargs would experience a variety of emotions. Whatever language they may have may not be enough to express these feelings. So the need to express these feelings becomes an impetus to create.

One gargoyle scratches at the cliff walls to let his anger out. Eventually, he discovers that different scratches can represent other feelings for him. He may even realize that these scratches can be made to represent things from his daily life.

A clan has lost one of its hatchlings. The grieving gargoyles howl out a song of grief and fine the release eases their pain. Songs of joy, anger, warning, and other emotions important to this early clan may develop as they work to express how they're feeling.

Two young gargoyles have recently learned to glide. Having mastered the basic manuevers, they use the currents to perform a joyous dance in the sky. Learning to glide well is useful when pursuing flying prey, but improvised gliding can also express emotion.

I can easily imagine that such "artistic" gargoyles may become attractive as mates, especially as communication and clan relations gain importance. Tolls might not come into it, but early gargoyles could still express creativity and culture.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye@aol.com]
Monday, July 26, 2004 05:19:49 PM
IP: 209.150.45.114

A more feasable means, yes. However, he had to get a sample in a manner that would keep both Elisa and Goliath in the dark.

As for the wound, Goliath was already hesitant to let Owen apply whatever it was to the wound. If it wasn't for Elisa encouraging him to let Owen do it (to minimize any risk of infection, which would have flared up before dawn), chances are he would've had to use another method.

Vertigo1
TN, USA
Monday, July 26, 2004 03:38:14 PM
IP: 207.65.41.74

What the deuce? It seems I forgot to ask this question last week when I was commenting on "Double Jeopardy". Oh well. Here's my belated question:

Why would Goliath let Owen tend to his minor wounds at the beginning of the episode. A stone sleep has been proven to heal far worse injuries than that. Even if sunrise was many hours away, the wound wouldn't have needed immediate attention, especially not from someone under Xanatos's employment. I would think that Greg would be able to come up w/ a more feasible means of having Xanatos gather DNA from Goliath.

Peace

Z
Monday, July 26, 2004 03:18:48 PM
IP: 66.143.159.109

10th to finish it off.

*still probably won't post much this week...*

Alex Garg
VA, USA
Monday, July 26, 2004 08:06:23 AM
IP: 138.88.79.43

KYOU KYOU - This isn't a chat room; it's a comment room. (Why do people keep on making this mistake over and over?)

LYNATI - What place burned down?

Now for my belated report on "Protection".

One thing that occurred to me this time around is that it would certainly have been a lot of fun to get a look inside the heads of Glasses and Pal Joey when Goliath and Broadway showed up (when they were driving Elisa to Dracon's) and Elisa started indignantly telling them off for interfering. Just imagine it, for a moment. You see a couple of terrifying, fierce-looking bat-winged monsters swoop down upon you - and somebody with you walks up to the monsters, indignantly starts telling them off as though they were naughty children, and tells them to go. And - this is the bit that must have truly astonished Glasses and Pal Joey - the monsters tamely do just that. Small wonder that they were telling Dracon all about it afterwards.

Some other moments that stand out to me still (some old, some new):

Goliath's absolute disgust that criminals like Dracon call their extortion rackets "protection".

In the "overheard conversation" that Pal Joey eavesdrops on, when it appears that Chavez believes that Elisa's gone bad, Chavez comments "Come to think of it, you have been acting a little strange lately." That line of hers probably helps the audience believe all the more that Chavez thinks that Elisa is up to no good, since that remark is something that she really could have made about Elisa ever since she met the gargoyles, and especially after she found them a new home in the clock tower. (One of the best ways of getting people to belive something is to incorporate into it things that they know are true.)

I found the alarmed responses of Dracon and his gang to Goliath and Broadway showing up in Dracon's quarters (Dracon diving behind the sofa as soon as the gargs enter, Pal Joey screaming "They're everywhere!") quite amusing (though explicable).

Since Dracon's goons were using particle beam accelerators in this episode, evidently Tony must have recovered a few of the ones that he'd sold in "Deadly Force" (since Goliath had destroyed all the ones that he'd kept).

Another bit that I get a kick out of: when Dracon tells Goliath and Broadway to go with Pal Joey to the dry cleaner's, Pal Joey immediately looks very unenthusiastic about the idea, as in "absolute panic".

Goliath carefully pronounces the word "dry cleaner's", in much the same way that he pronounced "detective" in Season One.

Elisa gets increasingly indignant about Tony calling her "sugar" (she seems to feel about it much the same way that Angela does about being called "Angie") until Tony finally catches on and addresses her as "su - I mean, Elisa."

Not to mention the bit where he's asking Goliath about whether Elisa's his woman (you've got to give him marks for good observation), starts patting Goliath familiarly on the wing, but hurriedly stops doing it after Goliath glowers at him.

And of course, this is the episode infamous for introducing the word "jalapena" into "Gargoyles". (I still smile over Greg's brief explanation of it. "One of the production staff bet me that I couldn't work it into a 'Gargoyle' episode. He lost.")

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, July 26, 2004 06:59:15 AM
IP: 4.244.12.75

Hmm... *putters around the chatroom curiously*
kyou kyou
Monday, July 26, 2004 04:45:03 AM
IP: 24.5.216.82

Lucky Seven!

...I sitill can't beleive that place burned down; it had the best ice cream...

Lynati
Monday, July 26, 2004 04:44:37 AM
IP: 66.140.73.32

6TH!
matt
Monday, July 26, 2004 03:06:18 AM
IP: 207.230.48.13

I claim the cubic root of 125!!
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, July 26, 2004 02:07:55 AM
IP: 67.14.195.14

4th!
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Monday, July 26, 2004 01:32:14 AM
IP: 207.65.41.93

3 x 3 days til I get on the plane to Montreal ^_^
Chameleon
Monday, July 26, 2004 12:24:10 AM
IP: 203.221.145.18

2nd!
D. Taina
Monday, July 26, 2004 12:10:06 AM
IP: 172.173.114.93

wun
Z
Monday, July 26, 2004 12:05:02 AM
IP: 66.143.159.109