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Comment Room Archive
Comments for the week ending October 18, 2004
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DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, October 17, 2004 11:26:30 PM
IP: 67.14.195.16
I suppose the Gargoyles could be afforded the same protection that endangered species are granted under federal law. However, that would likely require them living on an area of wildlife reserve which would go counter to Goliath's wishes of co-existing with humans. Not to mention they most likely wouldn't get recognition as sentient beings.
Another possibility, they could petition for tribal rights smiliar to those of Native Americans and establish a reservation, though that would likely take decades to accomplish. Even to this day, known tribes of human natives have a hard time gaining federal recognition.
I don't get the impression that Gargoyles are opposed to being granted citizenship if it were to happen in their universe. I understand the concept of the Gargoyles nation, but I think they would have an easier time gaining full citizenship of the US than establishing their own severign nation.
Even if the US accepts, there's still the problem of how the world's other nations will react to their gargoyle population. After all, they'll start looking in their backyards once they know the US has 'em.
Jay
CT
Sunday, October 17, 2004 11:21:17 PM
IP: 64.252.41.225
MATT - I think that the mountain lion business stems from a remark of Greg Weisman's. Greg once said, in his brief discussion as to how he'd planned to do the concept of Goliath on trial, that the real problem would be getting people to put Goliath on trial in the first place, since to them, putting a gargoyle on trial would be like putting a mountain lion on trial. That's probably how it got started.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, October 17, 2004 08:24:20 PM
IP: 63.186.3.178
once again, i hold that Gargoyles wouldn't want to be citizens... they wouldn't want to vote for a human leader. gargoyles have a rough time as it is with names, do you think social security numbers and all that would suit them at all? no.
Greg says they'll be granted protected status under the Gargoyle Minority Protection Act and i think the gargs will be happy with that.
and why is it that gargoyles are always being compared to mountain lions in this room? why mountain lions?
matt
Sunday, October 17, 2004 07:35:09 PM
IP: 68.90.72.40
For my own part, I suspect that the primary concern for the gargoyles would be just getting humans to recognize that they had the right to life and liberty, so that they wouldn't be hunted down all the time. The citizenship issue would be a secondary consideration. (I certainly doubt that it was a priority for Goliath.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, October 17, 2004 07:14:57 PM
IP: 63.186.3.178
Gargoyles' Citizenship>> I figure that when some vocal portion of society can accept gargoyles as people in some sense, the courts could hear cases in which the gargoyles have standing to sue. This wouldn't happen immediately after Hunter's Moon of course. Perhaps in a couple of decades?
I still think the big issue the courts would have to tackle is whether gargoyles could be considered "people." Unfortunatly, that interests me more than all of the "action" that maeks up most cartoons, and would make up any new "Gargoyles" series. :-(.
"Second-rate citizenry" would be a given, once/if the gargoyle are granted citizenship.
JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Sunday, October 17, 2004 06:13:18 PM
IP: 4.247.137.89
Whitbourne (earlier post)>> Heh, a move to Toronto would certainly allow for an interesting retelling of "Awakening."
"Does the sky need a name? Does the lake?"
"The lake is called 'Lake Ontario.'"
"*sigh* Fine, Lass, then I will be the Ontario as well."
...
"I wish you had come with us last night, Ontario."
"Ontario?"
"Aye, it's my name. And what would you make of it?"
"It's a fine name."
"Ontario. Uh, I-I like it."
"We should choose names, too, names that suit our new lives here."
"Oh, and what might they be?"
"Um... Vaughan. I'm Vaughan."
"Bloor."
"Lawrence. Do you like it?"
"They're all fine names. I guess he'll need one as well, now."
"Oh, I've got a name for him, too. From now on, you're Brampton."
"*growl*"
"I think he likes it!"
Alex Garg
VA, USA
Sunday, October 17, 2004 01:15:27 PM
IP: 216.145.68.130
See? That;'s exactly what I'm talking about. You'd need translated subtitles or you'd get lost.
Draconis Mk IV
Sunday, October 17, 2004 12:18:22 PM
IP: 213.249.248.72
Draconis> The only way the Frebch would be an issue is if the show were set in Montreal...or even better, in Moncton or Mirimachi, New Brunswick.
"Goliath, eh? What's yer faaaaaather's name? Anyways, ce n'est pas un big deal. Me and Brooklyn, yah, we're heading down de road to Doiron's pour les fish-and-chips. Dem other fellers, too, dey're comin' wit' us, oui, long as Monsieur Xanatos don't get no funny ideer. Ah, j'ai dit tourjours, it's a good t'ing that you gargouilles ended up coming to Mirimachi s'tead of getting stuck way down in Fredericton or some place like 'dat. Like I just heard 'udson say, "Dere's no shore like de Nort' Shore, dat's for shore, bientot."
Whitbourne
Sunday, October 17, 2004 12:16:31 PM
IP: 156.34.93.93
Canada? That'd be crazy...and confusing as Canada is supposedly a British colony where most of them speak French. Mind you the Clan are scottish in the first place so....I can imagine the accent confusion flood.
Draconis Mk IV
Sunday, October 17, 2004 11:56:46 AM
IP: 213.249.248.72
Whitbourne> We'll take 'em, you're right. We accept EVERYONE.
I my own opinion, I LOVE the gargs to be Canadian. That would be soooo cool!
That is all I will say.
Battle Beast
CanadaSunday, October 17, 2004 11:54:40 AM
IP: 198.53.28.99
Oh, just have them move to Canada. The show would be more fun set in Toronto anyway. :-)
Whitbourne
Sunday, October 17, 2004 10:35:43 AM
IP: 156.34.95.103
Gargoyles' Citizenship>> The problem with the Equal Protection Amendment is that we know its intent was a fantastic failure in parts of the country for nearly 100 years following its ratification; and there's no reason to believe it would suddenly be successful when applied to gargoyles. While it's pleasant to think that the U.S. would welcome gargoyles into the citizenry with open arms, our history very clearly bears out that the concept of second class citizenry is not uncommon. All it would take is one strict reader of the Constitution to point out that nowhere does that document make mention of "species" equality and that "race" probably doesn't mean humans, fay and gargoyles. That alone would be enough to keep the powers of government busy.
And the Supreme Court couldn't just arbitrarily rule that gargoyles are citizens. If any sequence of events led to such a ruling, it would have to start with the legislatures concluding in their halls whether or not gargoyles are citizens and then that would have to be challenged, etc.
I suppose it's possible that a sequence of events could also start with gargoyles suing for their rights, but I doubt that any court would give the gargoyles standing to bring a lawsuit, even if backed by Xanatos' lawyers.
*once again, "And Justice For All" enters the mind*
Out! Get out!
Alex Garg
VA, USA
Sunday, October 17, 2004 10:33:03 AM
IP: 216.145.68.130
Citizenship>> The requirements for citizenship differ from country to country. I can see Todd and Matt's idea working in Japan. However, given the more open nature of the U.S., I find the notion that American citizenship should be determed not by the ability to make moral, intelligent decisions (unlike dogs and mountain lions) but by the basis of race and species unusual.
Note that if the Supreme Court rules that gargoyles are people, then future generations of the Manhattan clan will be U.S. citizens. See Amendment XIV Section i U.S. Constitution (there may be haggling over the precise meaning of "born," however):
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html
(or click on my name)
A semi-autonomous nation, a la the Indian nations, could make sense, though.
JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Sunday, October 17, 2004 09:37:22 AM
IP: 4.247.206.187
Gargoyles and voting: Boy, I'd love to see the battles in the halls of Congress over the Constitutional Amendment granting gargoyles suffrage. I'm sure they'd be classic. And the hearings leading up to it... Episode #180, "Goliath Goes to Washington."
*starts thinking about the episode "And Justice for All," shudders*
Anyway, if we're assuming that the gargoyles have been extended the right to vote, I have to go with the folks who have suggested that they might not vote at all. They might in the first election they're eligible just for the symbolism, but beyond that it doesn't seem like a process they'd want much part in - unless, as Todd suggested, a candidate took an anti-gargoyles stance, in which case the gargoyles might vote against said candidate.
As for Dominique Destine running for office - I doubt it. She seems more the type to cater to candidates to earn their favor rather than getting personally involved to push her agenda. Besides, politicians are often caught working nights; so to those suggesting a Hillary Clinton-Dominique Destine ticket, unless that VP debate takes place during the day...
"Moderator: The next question goes to Ms. Destine, you have two minutes from when I finish the question. Ms. Destine, your position as CEO of Nightstone Unlimited has drawn criticisms that you are too involved with the corporations and special interests to look out for small businesses. How do you respond?
Dominique: I have to say that's just not true. I have great respect for small businesses, and... what time is it?
Opponent: See, she won't even answer the question she's so deeply involved.
Dominique: (shoots her opposition a deadly look)
Moderator: You have one minute and forty five seconds...
Dominique: (beginning to sweat) No, what *time* is it?
Moderator: ... 6:40.
Dominique: (screaming, she undergoes her transformation)
All others: ...!
Demona: ...So, where were we? Small businesses, yes?"
Alex Garg
VA, USA
Saturday, October 16, 2004 11:31:44 PM
IP: 216.145.68.130
If Dominique Destine wanted to get on the list of registered voters, it'd be pretty easy compared to what it took to establish a human identity for herself in the first place.
Red: You can't just make a person up!
Andy: Sure you can, if you know how the system works, and where the cracks are. It's amazing what you can accomplish by mail. Mr. Stevens has a birth certificate, social security card, driver's license...
-- The Shawshank Redemption
52 days left until the spell is broken and they live again! Gargoyles Season One comes to DVD on December 7, 2004!
Patrick
Saturday, October 16, 2004 09:07:50 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45
CKAYOTE - I hope that I was upset about it in a mature way.
GANTROS - I honestly hadn't thought about that - and Spiderman is one super-hero who lives in New York City. I had speculated about a crossover between the gargs and the X-Men and once even began writing a fanfic about that (based mainly on the "X-Men: Evolution" take on the X-Men, but with a few comics elements, including Gyrich as the head of a federal task force sent from Washington to capture the gargoyles, Emma Frost as a member of the Illuminati Society who serves as an official liaison with the Quarrymen, and Graydon Creed as a Quarryman officer - it had the Quarrymen mistake Nightcrawler for a gargoyle when the X-Men go to New York to investigate a "mutant signature" that Cerebro had detected coming from the Eyrie Building - the "mutant signature" actually being Alex's magic), but never finished it. I also occasionally speculated on what if the gargs crossed paths with Batman (the main creativity demon there being the gargs for some reason showing up in Gotham City and Batman, when he first sees them gliding about in the distance, initially wonders if Langstrom's renewed his experiments).
MATT - I agree with you that the gargs shouldn't be a direct part of human society, but form their own "nation" alongside it, though living in peace with the humans.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, October 16, 2004 08:06:07 PM
IP: 63.186.1.41
to be honest, i don't see that why any of the Gargoyles would ever want to vote for human leaders... even if for some reason humans one day gave gargoyles the right to vote (which i doubt they would since they instead form a Gargoyle Nation, a seperate nation) i can't see any gargoyles wanting to vote. afterall, would the gargs be ok with humans decideing the next Clan Leader?
i think humans and gargs should learn to get along, should form a strong alliance... but that doesn't mean that they should neccesarily become one nation. i'm glad greg came to the Gargoyle Nation conclusion and not the gargoyles as citizens conclusion. it just makes more sense.
i think Dominique Destine going to work in the White House is an interesting concept...
matt
Saturday, October 16, 2004 04:34:53 PM
IP: 68.90.72.40
Elisa would probably vote Kerry. I believe when someone asked who she voted for last time, Greg said Al Gore.
As for Vinnie... since he's sort of like Greg if Greg was in the Gargs Universe, I think he'd vote for whoever Greg votes for.
Greg Bishansky
Saturday, October 16, 2004 03:22:04 PM
IP: 141.155.154.200
Warning to Greg: Potential Original Ideas
Hmm Gargoyles and voting:
I don't see them as voting for Kerry as the Gargoyle philosophy, while heavily communinal tends to focus on personal honor and integrity rather than laws to create order. "Human justice is not Gargoyle justice" Goliath.
I'm also doubtful about Nadar for some of the same reasons listed above.
Hudson likely wouldn't vote for Bush since I don't feel he would consider him a wise warrior leader and likely wouldn't consider his "Patriot Act" as preserving personal freedom. The younger of the clan might have less inhabitions about voting for Bush. Yet, I think they would likely end up voting Libertarian.
Oddly, I think Demona wouldn't care who was president provided she could infiltrate the white house, end up on the president's cabinet and pull some strings.
Xanatos seems like he would go Libertarian, but most likely would vote Bush.
MacBeth doesn't strike me as having an interest in voting. Besides if the next several administrations mess up the world, he'll still be around to watch it start over.
Owen will vote the same as Xanatos. Puck on the other hand, well "this might be fun after all."
I'm somewhat undecided on Elisa.
Warning to Greg: Potential Original Ideas
Jay
CT, USA
Saturday, October 16, 2004 02:30:44 PM
IP: 64.252.41.225
I have to agree with Todd about Demona, since she doesn't make war on humans just to kill humans. She wants to kill humans to protect her species. That's a big difference!
Although I'd have to agree that she'd teamup Hillary rather then run against her, since as a Gargoyle she wouldn't want to be in the spotlight to much. The character of Vinnie in the show would most likely vote for Bush in the next election
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Saturday, October 16, 2004 02:05:08 PM
IP: 65.127.114.143
I rented Spider-Man 2 for the Xbox last night, and was wondering if ANY of the buildings seen in gargoyles could be found in the game (the Eyrie building, of course, wouldn't be there). I was wondering if things like The Cloisters, The Clocktower, or a few other places really do exist and therefore could be in the game.
Just had a related creativity demon. How would the Gargoyles react seeing Spidey swinging around on patrol one night and not knowing he was a good guy, too, started a little conflict that was humorous as well as action packed?
Gantros
Saturday, October 16, 2004 12:32:52 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55
Todd/Voting: Brooklyn would quirp about voting for Nader.
As for commentary, Hunter's Moon would demand it, and I think The Gathering, Avalon, and Future Tense deserve it if I only going to pick a few.
That said, I dreamt the other night they brough the series back, and they did an episode about the fandom, with charaictures of Todd, CrazyJen, Siren, and all the others. Todd wasn't portrayed in the most flattering light, and he was very upset about it.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Saturday, October 16, 2004 11:57:40 AM
IP: 64.192.78.171
If what I was saying in my reviews was so good as to discourage people from saying anything in response, then I definitely am getting too good. I'd rather have a discussion than a monologue.
I think that who the gargoyles would support (I doubt that they'd be able to vote - I think that eight years after their revelation to the world would still be too early for humans as a whole to recognize them enough as fellow-sentients to give them the vote) would depend on what Bush and Kerry's stance was on gargoyles. Any candidate favoring heavy anti-gargoyle measures (as in, hunt them all down and lock them up) is definitely not one whom the clan would want to see in the White House. Which raises the question of: what if Bush and Kerry both take an anti-gargoyle stance?
I don't know that Demona would actually want to see the humans wipe each other out through war, since after 1945 their style of doing so would most likely make the planet close to uninhabitable for gargoyles. (Besides, I think that she wants to do the job herself, and would see the humans destroying themselves as cheating her out of her revenge.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, October 16, 2004 07:26:33 AM
IP: 63.186.1.225
Lord>Heheh although demona and hillary are both mean bussines women. They might get along together and create world domination.
Has anyone seen this site. I found it kind of kewl. They mention gargoyles a bit.
They also give this list of disney dvds
Disney's Platinum DVD schedule:
Lion King - 2003
Aladdin - 2004
Bambi - 2005
Jungle Book - 2006
Cinderella - 2007
Little Mermaid - 2008
Lady and the Tramp - 2009
101 Dalmations - 2010
http://www.dvdtoons.com/features/11
Shara - [Jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]
Saturday, October 16, 2004 03:32:30 AM
IP: 209.179.192.240
Enjoying the FN o' Fright right now. Haven't seen Avalon in a very long time...it was so hard to see the Magus die! His is really such a heartbreaking story, and I love what a developed character he was overall. From, as I think Greg said a standard D&D type character to a fully complex character in his own right.
Just how old were Tom, Magus and Princess Catherine supposed to be? I mean I know Magus was the oldest, then Catherine and then Tom, but I never really thought about the exact age differences.
Victoria
Saturday, October 16, 2004 12:51:09 AM
IP: 24.126.137.116
Question #1 - how would Dominique Destine get on the list of registered voters? FOr that matter, which nationality does Dominique Destine claim?
Wouldn't Demona vote for Bush because she would perceive Bush as more likely to go to war and humans killing each other is always a good thing?
DPH
AR, USA
Saturday, October 16, 2004 12:34:26 AM
IP: 67.14.195.8
Shara > Actually, Demona would think that Hilary is trying to be her and try to destroy her ;-)...City of Stone - The Sequel - Politial Anihalation.
Lord GargFan
Saturday, October 16, 2004 12:32:53 AM
IP: 24.7.249.209
Lord GargFan>Demona would vote for hilary clinton. ;-)
I still have the DVD postcards if anyone wants one give me a email.
Shara - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]
Saturday, October 16, 2004 12:04:30 AM
IP: 209.179.192.240
Sorry for the double post.
That was supposed to be "FLASH" not "FALSH."
AND
When the second season comes out on DVD, the sets would be:
1) Episodes 14-33 (20 eps) ending with "The Price"
2) Eps 34-56 (22 Eps) Starting with "Avalon I" and ending with "Future Tense"
3) Eps 56-66 (10 eps) Starting with "The Gathering I" and ending with "The Journey."
I think that this is the best way to package them, as you are not breaking up the tour, and all the eps fit nicely together.
WHICH EPS would have commentary on, going on 5 commentaries per set???
That is all I will say.
Battle Beast
CanadaFriday, October 15, 2004 11:30:00 PM
IP: 198.53.28.99
Kaylle & Siren> THAT FALSH WAS $@#!@'EN AWESOME!!!
LORD GARG FAN> You are fogetting the MOST IMPORTANT THING... THERE IS NO WAY that lexington would EVER vote for BUSH because BUSH is STAUNCH ANTI-GAY. (Lexington is gay.) And Lexington's clan would back him, I think, if they truly are his friends. So they MIGHT all vote Kerry.
HUDSON> He WOULD NOT vote because he is OLD SCHOOL. He believs (SP?) in no names, and choosing your second in command and stepping aside when the time is right. Note voting for a new leader.
TODD> I enjoyed reading your rambles IMMENSLY. I only replied to your posts when I had something relevant to say. Usually, I never had anything good to say about the eps because you said it all B4 me. As well, I haven't see most of the epidoes since Family Channel took them off in Canada. (Although [THANK YOU NICKEROUS!!! :) ] I was able to watch "The Mirror" and "The Price" a few months ago.)
I do have the four video tapes of season 1, but I won't waatch them 1) Because my VCR won't allow me to insert tapes and 2) I am wating to see them on the DVD. (The longer I wait, the new they are to me.)
That is all I will say.
Battle Beast
CanadaFriday, October 15, 2004 11:23:34 PM
IP: 198.53.28.99
Hey, I'm number 75! (Okay, so it's pathetic that I hadn't left a review until now, but it was really hard to figure out how to say coherently how much I love this show !)
I am extremely late in posting this, but I owe Siren a *huge* thank you for creating a flash animation for the GargoylesDVD page! If you haven't seen it, click my name and check it out! It's awesome.
I also want to thank everyone who's been spreading the GargoylesDVD.com link around... I've been seeing links from all sorts of places! People have come from art sites, animation boards, Lion King boards, Marina Sirtis fansites... all over the place! And, if my site stats can be believed, from 10 different countries! Awesome!
I've been ridiculously busy the last few weeks with classwork and tests and such evil college institutions, but I do want to get the site updated this weekend. A big thank you also to Vashkoda, who responded to my plea for help with the "History of the DVD" page. I'll be getting that up asap as well.
Good work "going forth and making disciples..." guys! Keep it up! We can do this!
Kaylle - [kaylle@ladyavalon.com]
Boston, MA
Friday, October 15, 2004 11:18:11 PM
IP: 18.244.2.5
This thought just occurred to me: Who would the Gargs (and some other characters) back for president?
Hudson - (Pre-"You can't believe everything you see on TV") - Bush, because he would think that Kerry was an awful warrior (the Swift Boat ads).
Goliath - Not sure
Demona - Wouldn't back anyone. Maybe herself. She could run for mayor and then work her way up.
Angela - Third Party Candidate.
Brooklyn - Third Party Candidate.
Broadway - Kerry
Lexington - Bush.
Xanatos - Bush (tax cuts)
Elisa - Kerry
And another thought: Does the world need another Gargoyles website? I am thinking of building a website, but I'm tied between dedicating it towards American Idol/Kelly Clarkson/Clay Aiken, Harry Potter, and Gargoyles. Any suggestions?
That is all I have to say.
(Turns into stone.)
Lord GargFan
Friday, October 15, 2004 10:18:11 PM
IP: 24.7.249.209
Wow, we had a nice little hop, skip and a jump today in the reviews...up to 75!!!
Just 25 to go...so close.
Victoria
Friday, October 15, 2004 09:42:37 PM
IP: 24.126.137.116
Actually, back when I was posting my episode reviews, people were talking about plenty of other things (and often barely said anything about the episode that I discussed), so I doubt that my being finished with them for the year has contributed to the near-silence.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, October 15, 2004 08:03:28 PM
IP: 63.186.1.136
Will the DVD be backordered if we all buy on Dec 7th? Possibly. I guess we're risking that possibility in order to create a large spike in sales to show the Disney marketing reps the stregth of the fan base.
Though, with all the activity on the net ragarding this mass buy, I'd be hard pressed to thin that Amazon hasn't got wind of the plan.
Jay
CT, USA
Friday, October 15, 2004 07:47:46 PM
IP: 64.252.41.225
XD I'm buying mine at Wal-Mart. :) I can't wait, though I still have to wait until Christmas to open it. :( I just know it's going to be under the tree that day...so, hopefully, no the DVD shouldn't have to be back ordered or whatever. :D Though, we can't really preorder it, as stated it would be better for the fandom to buy it all on December 7th. Hope Wally world will have it then. :D
The Cat
Friday, October 15, 2004 05:41:11 PM
IP: 205.188.116.144
hmm if they are letting people pre order it that probally won't happen. I'm lazy I'm just buying my copy at target. LOL
Shara - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]
Friday, October 15, 2004 03:34:26 PM
IP: 209.179.198.95
Sorry for the double post, but someone on a forum I go to posted a good question concerning the Amazon ordering. Wont we have to worry about backorders if we all order it on Dec. 7th?
Victoria
Friday, October 15, 2004 02:19:28 PM
IP: 24.126.137.116
Ferratus < I think as others have speculated or stated already, the episodes on the DVD will not have any of the Toon Disney edits.
Victoria
Friday, October 15, 2004 01:17:19 PM
IP: 24.126.137.116
Wow, were we so dependent on Todd for discussion material that with his episode reviews all done we have nothing to really talk about?
Gantros
Friday, October 15, 2004 12:36:43 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55
Hey all, I'm wondering about the Gargoyles DVD.
Will it be heavily edited like the Toon Disney episodes? For example, can I see Hyena slash open the fanboy's bowtie in "Her Brother's Keeper?"
Ferratus
Friday, October 15, 2004 12:24:32 PM
IP: 128.233.132.234
The LAt Unicorn, eh? I love that movie.
Check out my review here or clicky my name.
http://www.geocities.com/oscarmovs/unicorn.html
*hic-up* ... ... *hic-up* ... uh-oh ... ... ...
That is all I will ... *hic-up* ... say....
Battle Beast
CanadaFriday, October 15, 2004 12:29:34 AM
IP: 161.184.68.17
Shara>Great, click my name for Mega-Con's official site.
For those Last Unicorn fans, if you live in the Orlando area or Florida in general, Peter S. Beagle will be attending the con :D
Siren
Thursday, October 14, 2004 07:56:50 PM
IP: 24.165.226.120
Heheh I still need to go leave my review later.
I still have dvd cards left if anyone wants one just give me an email.
Siren: I love your movies hehe. By the way found out from our editor that he's interested in attending your orlando con.
Shara - [Jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]
Thursday, October 14, 2004 03:09:15 PM
IP: 209.179.211.4
Wooo, 71 reviews <--- that guy I helped out finally put up his review, yay.
Too bad they can't move those 8 reviews from the other page over to make it 79 reviews....
Victoria
Thursday, October 14, 2004 02:21:05 PM
IP: 66.125.193.75
Finally?! Huzzah! I was starting to get antsy that we'd never reach 70. Yay! So close to 100, it's so within our reach....something to be quite excited over.
Victoria
Thursday, October 14, 2004 12:14:16 AM
IP: 24.126.137.116
70 reviews!!! 70 reviews! The DVD on Amazon has 70 reviews!
30 more to go in 55 days? WE CAN DO IT!!!!
*giggles*
Kristen - [zzilly14@yahoo.com]
Virginia, USA
Wednesday, October 13, 2004 10:05:52 PM
IP: 199.249.157.129
I just posted my review on Amazon. #69, baby!
Look for it under "Entertainment Reviewer".
Anyway, on the mutates changing back: I don't think Greg would ever do that. It'd make too many fans mad. If he did though, I think that Maggie would change back definitely. I think that the others like it too much.
Fifty-five days! Fifty-five days! Woo-hoooooooooo!
That is all I have to say.
Lord GargFan
Wednesday, October 13, 2004 06:20:19 PM
IP: 24.7.249.209
hehe yeah I saw that yesterday I think. Pretty colors :) Someone had pointed out that the disk art was different from the original disk art that was first seen. Not sure why they would change it, but the new disk art looks nice too.
Victoria
Wednesday, October 13, 2004 05:25:24 PM
IP: 24.126.137.116
One Disc
Two Disc
Red Disc
Blue Disc
http://tvshowsondvd.com/newsitem.cfm?NewsID=2306
IRC Goliath - [goliath1 (at) pacbell [dot] net]
Wednesday, October 13, 2004 04:36:11 PM
IP: 209.234.142.80
Shara: Yes, I believe you'll need an account to review. But it's free to join. I use Amazon to add stuff to my wish list for Birthday/Christmas presents :)
Anyway, just go to the site (click on my name) and go down to "write an online review" and follow the directions for registering. Then after you register you can write up the review!
Kristen - [zzilly14@yahoo.com]
Virginia, USA
Wednesday, October 13, 2004 04:13:41 PM
IP: 199.249.157.129
hehe I try to avoid the debates because the last one I watched they where just bashing eachother rather then attacking issues that need attention.
Do you have to have an amazon account to leave feedback on the dvd?
Shara - [Jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, October 13, 2004 03:34:39 PM
IP: 209.179.250.105
68 posts at Amazon. Keep them coming!
And instead of the DVD sales being ranked at 2,000? 862. It's only going to get smaller with every day closer to December 7th!!!!
On another note - for you Americans eligible to vote (and even if you're not) the last Presidential debate is TONIGHT at 9pm. I'd suggest you watch C-SPAN for the most unbiased, less cluttered viewing (all the other stations like MSNBC and Fox have those annoying news tickers on the bottom).
And even if you know who you're going to vote for, the debates are still important to watch. So please, please, WATCH!!!! :)
Kristen - [zzilly14@yahoo.com]
Virginia, USA
Wednesday, October 13, 2004 03:18:23 PM
IP: 199.249.157.129
"I Can't Drive 55">> Thaks to a programming contest that phrase has taken on a new meaning for me -- utter frustration! My university had 5 teams of three, and none of them could solve the problem that went by that name, all because of a little (**((*(@!!** problem with rounding!
JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Wednesday, October 13, 2004 01:52:27 PM
IP: 4.247.203.202
Even if the Mutates could be changed back, what then? Talon is the only one whose family is aware of what happened. The others all simply vanished from their former lives. It'd be difficult if not impossible to reappear years later and pick up right where they left off, assuming the opportunity would even exist for them to do so. Most likely, they'd end up starting all over again from scratch. And that's a risky and uncertain proposition in and of itself.
Today's countdown will be presented by Sammy Hagar:
Gonna write me up for 125
Post my face wanted dead or alive
Take my license, all that jive
I can't drive...
55 days left until the spell is broken and they live again! Gargoyles Season One comes to DVD on December 7, 2004!
Patrick
Wednesday, October 13, 2004 09:50:12 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45
DEMONSKRYE - Yes, you're right about the insight into Scrooge's character being the truly important part of the story, and I'm sorry that I gave the impression otherwise. Incidentally, I came across a Scrooge comics story recently with a similar statement about his character (though I don't know if it was as profound), where the Beagle Boys find a way of getting inside Scrooge's dreams in the hopes of tricking him into giving them the combination for his money vault and Donald Duck follows after them to thwart them; to the surprise of the "dream intruders", Scrooge's dreams aren't about his money, but about all the adventures that he's had (such as a run-in with Frank and Jesse James in the Old West), with the really big one being saving Goldie from a burning saloon up in the Yukon. Something that definitely brings home the same point that the Kalevala story did that you mentioned over what matters to Scrooge even more than the money - the adventures that he had in building up his fortune.
As for the Mutates, I suspect that they'd ultimately choose to remain Mutates, particularly since they've now got the responsibility of protecting the people of the Labyrinth (cf. "Kingdom"), which they couldn't do as easily when reverted to humans. I remember that, when TGS was first coming out, the staff did a slightly similar story with the trio and Angela being temporarily transformed into humans by Alex after he overhears them sighing over being hated and feared by most of the humans in New York just because they're gargoyles, but choosing to embrace the gargoyle life after learning that, as mere humans, they can't protect innocent people from criminals as well as they could as gargoyles.
I find myself reminded at this point of a passage in the Lord of the Rings, at the end, where Frodo says "It must often be so... when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them." The immediate meaning of that, of course, is the people who've sacrificed their lives protecting others (the "Gargoyles" equivalent to which being the death of the Magus in "Avalon"), but in another sense, it could be used to mean the lifelong sacrifice of the "superhero", doomed to be "different" (and often thereby feared) so as to be able to protect others, so that they can enjoy the normal life that he or she will never know.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, October 13, 2004 07:25:34 AM
IP: 63.186.0.182
Remeber that except for Maggie (and maybe Claw, we never actually hear him complain, for obvious reasons...), The Mutates had come to like their new forms, Fang for the power it gave him over others, and Talon for the power it gave him to help others, much like the gargoyles. So, having accepted their new forms (and the fact that anything Sevarius cooks up cannot be trusted, and that anything developed by anyone else would probably take years to perfect), the mutates would probably form a structure much like the gargoyles, they live to protect those that fall through the cracks (except Fang, of course).
Gantros
Wednesday, October 13, 2004 01:18:37 AM
IP: 24.20.243.55
Battle Beast - <Would ANY of the mutates actually change back??> Of course, everybody but Fang would. I actually have a creativity demon of all the mutates (except Fang) given a chance to become human for one day and by the end of that day willingly decide to remain mutates. I'm not going into any more details about that happenned during that one day.
DPH
AR, USA
Wednesday, October 13, 2004 12:53:56 AM
IP: 67.14.195.21
While reading "Ask Greg," I noticed psrt of a question:
"By the end of the original show, Xanatos has reformed.
1) Is he really reformed or is it just another ploy of his?
2) Why didn't he have the mutates turned back into humans if he was?
3) Would the mutates want to be turned back into humans? Being mutates let's them to help others better than when they were human.
Greg responds...
1. He hasn't reformed, but his priorities have shifted somewhat. He certainly feels kindly toward the Gargoyles, though that would never stop him from using them -- just from harming them.
2. I don't think he can.
3. Fang does not want to turn back. I think Talon, and maybe even Maggie and Claw have accustomed themselves as well. Though if presented with an actual bona fide opportunity to change back, it would be interesting to see if they took it."
Now this is interesting. Would the mutates want to turn back?
I read a "Fantastic Four" comic once that had a story line to it where Ben Grimm had a chance to turn back into a human with a potion. Ben leaps at the chance, but in the end can't bring himself to do it because he loves his friends so much.
What do you think? Would ANY of the mutates actually change back??
That is all I will say.
Battle Beast
CanadaWednesday, October 13, 2004 12:18:55 AM
IP: 161.184.68.17
My alternate Hunter's Moon(last week) >> Actually, if I have the Hunter's decide to do something less blatant to destroy the gargoyles, I can arrange a run-in with Elisa to save our heros without resorting to near deus-ex-machina.... (Although the conincidence in itself is kinda unbelievable)
<-- How dare the mortals insult my little namesake?
JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 10:05:56 PM
IP: 4.247.188.245
Lord GargFan> Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure "uncut" just means the long versions of the episodes as they aired, meaning no ToonDisney edits or "Heroes Awaken" cuts of the first five-parter. I'm not entirely sure if the "facing Queens" joke was ever recorded and at the least I'm guessing it was probably never animated. So much as I'd like to see it, that any any other "lost scenes" that never showed up in the broadcast version will most likely not be on the DVD.
Todd> Thanks for the compliments. I guess I should have figured you'd already be familiar with the Kalevala. Now it's entirely possible that this is the first time this particular story has seen print in the States. (I couldn't confirm that suspicion, so it's not in the article. But a couple of my friends who are pretty into the Duck comics had never seen it before.) So I don't know if it was meant as a "Kalevala 101" for the rest of the world as much as a treat for the Finnish readers who had so thoroughly embraced Rosa by that point.
What I really like about this story - and another factor that connects it to "Gargoyles" - is how much of Scrooge's character is revealed in it. It would have been easy enough to just write a fun story with Scrooge, Donald, and the nephews running around having an adventure in Kalevala. But Rosa manages to do THAT and make it a story about Scrooge's individual character. Similarly, some of the best Gargoyles episodes that deal with myth and folklore tie in the main characters in such a way that it feel very natural to have them there. It's not just "Today, Goliath will teach you about Norse mythology." Major and minor character arcs continue.
Hope you enjoyed all the umlauts. It was a real pain getting them to the webmaster without them turning into gibberish.
Demonskrye - [<--Still my Article]
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 09:58:08 PM
IP: 146.115.115.131
I might be a bit late, but I found 3 editorial cartoon tributes (one's an attack, but not on Reeve).
Click my name to see them :)
(and if you have LJ.. feel free to add me if you want.. lol :D)
Patricia Lovelady - [sabre0link@hotmail.com]
Montevallo, AL, USA
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 09:20:19 PM
IP: 68.159.180.242
CK>I've been trying to post since I mentioned it. Trio has YET to send me my password to activate my account. I'm not sure if it's just me or a problem with my email service or what.
Siren
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 08:04:07 PM
IP: 24.165.226.120
DEMONSKRYE - Thanks for telling us about the article about Scrooge McDuck encountering Vainamoinen and the Sampo. It was a good read in its analysis of Uncle Scrooge's character; I was also intrigued by the Kalevala elements. The Kalevala isn't as well-known a legend as the Arthurian cycle or "Beowulf" or the Greek myths, so it's great to see it crop up in a pop culture work such as a Disney comic book - where it could actually acquaint people with Vainamoinen and his story. (I also noted that Vainamoinen is here drawn as a human rather than the typical anthropomorphic dog, duck, or pig that populate the Duckburg Universe.) I wouldn't be too surprised, of course, if the Kalevala would have gotten into "Gargoyles" if it had lasted long enough.
Incidentally, this is one thought that I had about parallels between "Gargoyles" and "Buffy", from a few weeks ago: there's one between Vinnie and Xander. Both are seemingly comic-relief klutzes, doomed to one misfortune after another; yet both also have ultimately come through to show that a little simple courage and decency can produce as great results as conventional "super-powered heroism" (Vinnie saves Goliath and Elisa from Castaway, Xander stops "Evil Willow" from destroying the world). And both are based on the creators of the series in which they appeared; Greg Weisman has said that Vinnie is the character in the Gargoyles Universe that he's probably most like (Vinnie's departure for Japan in "The Journey" was even designed as a parallel to Greg's departure from "Gargoyles"), while Joss Whedon has said that Xander was based on himself as he was in high school.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 07:36:03 PM
IP: 63.186.2.68
I was rereading Greg's episode rambles today and something came across my mind: Since the DVD's are "uncut", does that mean we'll get to see some of the footage that never even aired (like the "Good thing...queens" line)? Something to ponder (and pray for)...
Lord GargFan
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 06:39:24 PM
IP: 24.7.249.209
Phill: RE: "Greg lists the people involved and names both TimeDancer and Brooklyn, as if they were two separate entities. Hmmm..."
I'm sure he was referring to "Timedancer," the SERIES, not "THE" Timedancer.
Leo
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 03:05:42 PM
IP: 68.231.241.236
Late Happy Thanksgiving to all the Canadians here.
Siren: Can't find a gargs post at the "Brilliant but Cancelled" forum. Have you already posted, or should someone else make a topic?
And some interesting news for any real-life Dr.Severiuses out there: A Saudi Dr. in England claims to have discovered a way to cause white blood cells to revert into stem cells. I read in the latest issue of "New Scienctist" that her company claims they have treated 4 patients in India who were sufffering a disease that caused uncontrollable bleeding from every oriffice. All four made quick and miraclous recoveries (longest was in 20 days, shortest was in 2).
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 02:57:42 PM
IP: 64.192.78.171
Does anyone find this intriguing? Greg's latest answer is to a question about how the Grimorum got from Finella to Xanatos. Greg lists the people involved and names both TimeDancer and Brooklyn, as if they were two separate entities. Hmmm...
Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 02:52:01 PM
IP: 134.215.241.133
Siren, maybe he is walking now that he's probably in heaven.
YAY, rolls around like Bronx after dinnertime, my program finally came, WAHOOO.
Matt Fews
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 12:18:37 PM
IP: 206.47.191.83
JJ> Yah, I'm hurtin'. However, I do have the CFL, so it's not a total loss. But I do feel it.
That is all I will say.
Battle Beast
CanadaTuesday, October 12, 2004 10:44:46 AM
IP: 161.184.68.17
It is a shame about Christopher Reeeve his work and real life were both such an inspriation.
This is pretty darn off topic, but I've got a new article up at Jim Hill Media. This one is about an Uncle $crooge comic I read recently. I think it might be of interest to Gargs fans because Scrooge gets involved with ancient legends, Finnish in this case.
There's a Gargoyles article coming, I promise!
Demonskrye - [<---My Article!]
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 08:39:41 AM
IP: 146.115.115.131
Work has me on the road this week. I'm posting from a hotel in the middle of West Virginia coal country. It's a good thing they've got the internet out here, 'cause the mountains sure screw up the cel phone reception.
56 days left until the spell is broken and they live again! Gargoyles Season One comes to DVD on December 7, 2004!
Patrick
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 07:55:14 AM
IP: 24.177.31.51
It was from Tales from teh Darkside: The Movie. The whole thing was based on an old Chinese muyth about an ice demoness.
Brooklyn - [admlcav@aol.com]
Austin, Tx, USA
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 03:59:49 AM
IP: 152.163.100.137
Can anyone eitehr give me the link to the Demona "BAD" music video or snd it to me in a zipped file?
Weregargoyle - [admlcav@aol.com]
Austin, Tx, USA
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 03:58:24 AM
IP: 152.163.100.137
It was either Amazing Stories, Tales from the Darkside, or ... what was the name of that other one? Not Tales from the Crypt. There was another show. Before Outter Limits and all of those... *Sigh* Eh. Brain dead. Need sleep.
Jade Griffin
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 01:09:28 AM
IP: 68.190.182.207
He will always be Superman to me:) They should not remake those movies, imo...
Also, on the topic of gargoyles in other movies and articles and such, does anyone remember I believe it was an Amazing Stories episode with a man and his companion drunk in an alley. A gargoyle swoops down, kills his friend and warns the surviving man that if he ever tells, the garg'll kill him! So feverish the man, an artist, goes up to his loft and spends heated hours sketching and drawing the thing that he saw. A woman then comes knocking at his door. She is wet and cold and I think wanting to use a phone or something. Eventually, they fall in love and have two kids. He feels he must be totally honest after so many years with her and tells her about the gargoyle, bringing forth the picture.
"You promised you wouldn't tell!!" she shrieks, transforming into a gargoyle before his eyes. Screams of his children echo in the bedroom. They, too, are turning into gargoyles. End shot has the garg mom and babies escaping and at day turned to stone, a mother clutching her two young hatchlings in her arms. She looks to be weeping. Cool episode! I'd love to see it again!
Jade Griffin
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 01:08:38 AM
IP: 68.190.182.207
Ooops. Accidentally hit the enter key.
Anywho. Meant to say it was a false alarm: the reviews are back. And we're at 67!!! Yay!!!
Kristen - [zzilly14@yahoo.com]
Virginia, USA
Monday, October 11, 2004 11:51:12 PM
IP: 199.249.157.129
...
Kristen - [zzilly14@yahoo.com]
Monday, October 11, 2004 11:50:19 PM
IP: 199.249.157.129
GAHHH!!!! Last I checked there were 66 reviews on Amazon. Now? There's NONE! They're all GONE!!!!!!!! NOOO!!! Stupid Amazon!!!!
BTW, interesting to note, Gargoyles Season 1 DVD is currently #2,000 in the Amazon Sales rank. On the dot. It'll probably be a better number once December 7th rolls around.
Anyway, to reiterate: BLAH, AMAZON, WHERE'S OUR 60-some reviews????????????
Kristen - [zzilly14@yahoo.com]
Virginia, USA
Monday, October 11, 2004 11:33:27 PM
IP: 199.249.157.129
:sees Battle Beast's post: I cannot believe it is Canadian Thanksgiving already. And no NHL hockey!
Deaths in Threes: I don't put too much into that saying. It is only we humans trying to project some order onto the Universe. After all, several people died.
Regarding any of these deaths, let us reflect, confident in the knowledge that we all were born and we all will die, on the fact these people have done their part in life, and that life goes on.
As the song* goes:
And when I die
And when I'm dead, dead and gone
There'll be one child born
In our world to carry on...
To carry on!
(* from "And When I Die" performed by Blood, Sweat, and Tears)
JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Monday, October 11, 2004 11:03:10 PM
IP: 4.247.191.241
I too am saddened by the sudden loss of so many big stars.
Especially Christopher Reeve. I've been rooting for him to walk since he stated he would. He truely was a Superman. So many people who are quadraplegic and parapaligic (I KNOW I spelt those wrong), see him as an inspiration. All too often, doctors say there is no point in trying. And most people don't. But Reeve would hear none of it. He made some great progress though all the same. More then anyone before him. A true inspiration to everyone to keep trying to fulfill your dream, no matter who says otherwise. Even your own body.
He's walking and probably flying in Heaven now. :)
Siren
Monday, October 11, 2004 06:51:57 PM
IP: 24.165.226.120
"Will you still need me, will you still feed me, When I'm sixty-four?"
64 reviews at Amazon! Keep them coming!
Christopher Reeve's death: Surprised me this morning on the Yahoo! News Headlines. I thought he'd get the chance to walk again. :( May he rest in peace, and God be with his family and friends as they deal with this tragedy.
Kristen - [zzilly14@yahoo.com]
Virginia, USA
Monday, October 11, 2004 03:59:13 PM
IP: 199.249.157.129
Christopher Reeve... He would have walked again. :*(
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Monday, October 11, 2004 03:11:54 PM
IP: 207.178.216.226
""Hunter's Moon"- I've always felt that there's a deleted scene at the end of Part 2 or beginning of Part 3, inwhich they find the tracer, and that it was probably cut for time."
Actually, Lex did find it. Just before the missiles fire, Lexington shouts Goliath's name, and is shown pulling something off of Goliath's shoulder. Then the camera cuts to the female hunter saying "Fire!" and the missles streak off to their target. Its a very brief scene. I didn't even notice it until the second time around, so its no suprise to me that some missed it as well.
As for cut scenes...
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/faq.php?s=lostmoments#HUNTERS_MOON
Granted, thats more than likely not all of the cut scenes from that episode...
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Monday, October 11, 2004 03:01:18 PM
IP: 207.65.41.141
Sorry for double posting.
Reeve, Charles, Dangerfield: They always go in threes.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Monday, October 11, 2004 02:38:25 PM
IP: 64.192.78.171
Sorry for double posting.
Reeve, Charles, Dangerfield: They always go in threes.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Monday, October 11, 2004 02:38:25 PM
IP: 64.192.78.171
Wow Alot of famous actors have past away recently. I was really hoping that reeves would get better.
Don't forget janet leigh died too (im a big fan of the old movies). The lady who stared in pycho(ug I cant spell today)
Shara - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]
Monday, October 11, 2004 02:13:48 PM
IP: 209.179.44.122
Victoria- Yeah! Commercials. Maybe somebody could forward Siren's to Greg W and see if he could get it to Disney. Even though they wouldn't air it, it would still show how dedicated the fandom is. We make our commercials for God's sake!
"Hunter's Moon"- I've always felt that there's a deleted scene at the end of Part 2 or beginning of Part 3, inwhich they find the tracer, and that it was probably cut for time.
Does anyone know if this true? Greg's ranted that his scripts always run long, and I'm wondering if anyone's ever asked him about that (Ask Greg or at a Gathering).
<<Runs off to search the archives>>
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Monday, October 11, 2004 02:04:16 PM
IP: 64.192.78.171
HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!!!
Sorry for the double post, but I just had a thought:
It would have been neeto to see a story about Jason's dealing with his injury Like Christopher Reeve did. Reeve could even have been in the ep.
Something like, Jason wants to end it all because he can't deal with his injury. But he runs into an ageing actor who was in an accident and is paralysed now. They both strike up a friendship and help each other deal with their problem. Like Hudson and Robbins.
That is all I will say.
battle Beast
CanadaMonday, October 11, 2004 12:22:07 PM
IP: 161.184.68.17
HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!!!!!
Sadly, we lost the Man of Steel Last night. :'( Check out my memoriam for him at my website:
www.geocities.com/oscarmovs
or clicky my name.
That is all I will say.
battle Beast
CanadaMonday, October 11, 2004 12:16:36 PM
IP: 161.184.68.17
I can't believe he's really gone. A childish part of me keeps beating against my logic saying Superman can't die. I know he's in a better off, but it is just so sad and heart-breaking that Reeves has died. It just all seems so sudden.
Amazon reviews are at 63, it's still slowly crawling to 100, yay!
Victoria
Monday, October 11, 2004 10:23:22 AM
IP: 24.126.137.116
*observes a moment of silence for Christopher Reeve *
One thing that would have made an interesting story (pity that the third season ignored the Canmores apart from Castaway) would have been Jason and Robyn being brought to trial over blowing up the clock tower. (Well, mainly Jason, I suspect, since the Director would soon be snapping up Robyn for the Redemption Squad.) How severe a sentence would they get? On the one hand, they attacked a police station, which would obviously be a very offence. On the other hand, any good defense attorney would point out that they only blew up the clock tower to get rid of a group of non-human creatures nesting in it that didn't legally exist (and aren't even all that popular with the general public), not to harm the humans in it, and even deliberately made it a surgical strike. Jason's contrition would obviously be a factor as well.
Pity that I never taped "The Journey", so I can't do a review of it the way that I did one for the other 65 episodes that Greg Weisman worked on. Still, here are a few thoughts that I have about it, based on my memories of it (which are all the stronger thanks to Patrick Toman having transcribed the episode for TGS a few years ago - thanks, Patrick!).
"The Journey" is a rather frustrating story, actually, since Greg starts a number of new threads for the series (or turns old threads in new directions) that promised a lot of intriguing tales to come - and the new management either ignores or mishandles them. We have the following cases:
The gargoyles are revealed to the public, with a great deal of panic and confusion.
The gargoyles are hiding out with Xanatos.
Castaway has started up the Quarrymen.
Lexington is getting closer with Alex, and for his sake, agrees to call off his old feud with Fox that dates back to "The Thrill of the Hunt".
Broadway and Angela are growing even closer, to Brooklyn's dismay.
Macbeth stands up for the gargoyles on television. (Since I'd gotten rather fond of him after "City of Stone", I'm glad that his final scene in the series had him doing something like that.)
The indication, via Duval's phone call, that the Illuminati are getting involved in things again.
Not to mention the Goliath and Elisa business.
I've mentioned this before, but I still get a kick out of Castaway's recruitment speech to the frightened citizens, because of all the ironies in it. Offering them comfort from all the violence and racism in their lives by getting them to join a violent, racist organization. Playing upon fears that they have about gargoyles that strongly mirror fears that gargoyles have about humans. And the constant use of the word "alone" - which comes across as all the more chilling in view of how one of the last things that he'd said in his Jon Canmore days had been "What have - what have they done?" When Greg left this show, he really left it with a bang.
The Quarrymen's degeneration under the new management from frightened citizens to one-dimensional professional thugs still strikes me as a big pity and a serious mistake. For one thing, it probably made things too easy for the gargoyles. If the Quarrymen are just another bunch of bad guys like the Pack or Dracon's gang or the other criminals that the clan's regularly been protecting Manhattan from, then you can simply swoop down and foil them just like the rest, with no difficulty about it (other than beating them in combat, of course). But what if most of them are ordinary people with good intentions, otherwise law-abiding, who are only doing this because they see the gargoyles as endangering their homes, their families, their community? If you fight back against them, you'll only convince them that their fears about the gargoyles were true. (In practice, of course, I suspect that it'd be mainly the mercenaries like Banquo and Fleance who'd actually be carrying the hammers and using them.) Goliath had always been insistent on avoiding violent confrontations with those humans who were merely "frightened civilians" rather than evil-doers (remember his response to the trio's fight with the villagers in "Awakening Part One"); also, he obviously wouldn't want to risk taking the clan down a path that could lead them to Demona's state of mind towards humans. What do you do when the people coming after you aren't full-time bad guys, but the citizenry that you've sworn to protect? (Of course, there's the question as to how long most of those people would last once they realize that Castaway's doing what he does for personal vengeance rather than to protect the city - Vinnie certainly left once he realized what Castaway's true motive was - though that would probably take some time. And for the Quarrymen to remain representative of fear of the unknown and different, they would need to keep some "non-criminal" membership.)
There's also the issue of the clan living with Xanatos. Xanatos is already suspected of harboring them, and there's the question as to how long he can hold the authorities at bay (though he's resourceful enough to think of something). And there's the question as to how much he can be trusted. Not that I think that he'd betray them (by the second season, Xanatos wasn't really after the gargoyles; almost all of his apparent attacks on him really had a different purpose than capturing or killing the clan), but he's not exactly Mr. Trustworthy. We can be certain that he's still scheming about other things (such as becoming immortal). Not to mention that he and Fox probably aren't the most ideal protectors of the clan from the point of view of public relations, given their criminal pasts (which Travis Marshall brings up in "The Gathering Part One" even as he's reporting on Alex's birth).
Duval's phone call is of particular interest, and not just because it mentions the Illuminati for the first time since "Revelations" and introduces Duval himself into the series (off-stage). Remember, Xanatos is a lower-echelon member. Duval is the head of the Society. And Duval is (from the evidence) seeking to speak to Xanatos in person, rather than having a subordinate make the phone call. It's like the President of the United States wanting to speak with a minor official. Obviously whatever Duval wanted to talk to Xanatos about must have been of considerable importance in relation to the Illuminati for him to ignore the "chain of command" structure - and it's pretty obvious what that something is.
(It's a pity that we never found out why the Illuminati set up the Quarrymen - obviously they don't actually want Castaway to slaughter the gargoyles, even if he believes that it's what they want. I suspect that the Illuminati share Xanatos's viewpoint of prefering to control rather than to destroy, on the grounds that you can't use what you've just destroyed. For that matter, what do the Illuminati want with the gargoyles? It certainly has to be something bigger than just using them to assassinate inconvenient peace-making statesmen.)
I don't know how many first-time viewers picked up on Castaway being Jon Canmore in disguise. I was suspicious from the start that he was connected to the Canmores in some way, due to his surname, which fitted the pattern of the Canmores' aliases in "Hunter's Moon", though I don't remember if I specifically thought him to be Jon. (I'd missed the other clue that people picked up on - the Hunters' emblem beneath his Quarryman badge.) At any rate, I'm a firm believer in the Castaway=Jon Canmore equation, since it provides an explanation for why he hates the gargoyles so much. Without it, he becomes a motiveless villain who just pops out of nowhere.
Vinnie develops some truly solid characterization as he goes from comic relief to the man who stands up to Castaway and refuses to let him kill Goliath and Elisa. His line of "This isn't right" is perhaps the greatest moment in the episode; it certainly shows how, in the right situation, a few simple, one-syllable words can be truly eloquent. (I wonder if he will indeed meet the Ishimura clan when he relocates to Japan; knowing Vinnie, he almost certainly will.) Goliath still remains puzzled about the guy, incidentally.
(It seems to be one of Jon's misfortunes that, after he goes from a passive gargoyle-supporter to an active gargoyle-hater, everyone who steps in to protect the gargoyles from him, such as Elisa, Jason, and Vinnie, shows far more steadfastness in defending the gargs than he showed before he changed for the worse. I wonder what his subconscious thinks of that.)
There's a subtle irony in Banquo and Fleance, Macbeth's former henchmen, now working for the descendant of two of his greatest enemies.
A high point for me is the television debate between Margot and Macbeth. I've already mentioned before how pleased I was to see Macbeth leave the series in this manner. It's also of note that Margot becomes more fleshed out, gaining a surname and an occupation.
Despite being anti-gargoyle, Margot doesn't come across quite so badly here when you stop to think about it. She's not calling for the gargoyles to be killed, but simply rounded up and confined. Remember that she believes that the gargoyles are wild animals, on the same level of savagery as mountain lions, say. If the gargoyles really were nothing more than that, her response of having them placed in captivity would be a reasonable one, I believe.
Of course, I got a real kick out of the juxtaposition of the scenes with the younger gargoyles opposite Margot's speech in such a way as to disprove her allegations about the gargs.
"The Journey" also makes it clear that the trio's days as the trio are numbered. They're all going separate directions here: Lexington is playing with Alex, Broadway is spending time with Angela (even reading "Romeo and Juliet" with her - how like Greg Weisman to get one last piece of Shakespeare into the series before he left), Brooklyn brooding by himself. (Of course, the events of "Timedancer" would have even more certainly brought an end to the trio's days as the trio.)
It's a pity that the new production team changed things around, so as to not only have Goliath glide off with Elisa at the end (regardless of that injured wing), but to have made that the ending; originally, according to Greg, the ending was to be Travis Marshall signing off after the debate between Macbeth and Margot, giving the entire episode the feeling of being framed by Marshall's broadcast. I think that that would have made a far better ending.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, October 11, 2004 08:38:36 AM
IP: 63.186.1.108
A moment for Christopher Reeves...
He's walking with the angels now.
Maintain and Check Six.
Stephen R. Sobotka Jr.
Tampa, FL
Monday, October 11, 2004 05:42:06 AM
IP: 24.164.32.94
10 11 12 O'clock! Rock around the clock night tonight.
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Monday, October 11, 2004 03:17:32 AM
IP: 65.127.114.149
Christopher Reeves isn't the only person to die over the weekend: http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=scienceNews&storyID=6462611§ion=news
Maxime Faget's importance predates most of us (maybe not Greg Weisman), but his contributions are at least as important as Christopher Reeves, imho.
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, October 11, 2004 03:16:42 AM
IP: 67.14.195.27
I can't believe he's dead. I think I'm gonna to cry.
Chameleongirl
Monday, October 11, 2004 02:40:38 AM
IP: 203.220.175.175
8th...
That's too bad about Reeve, he seemed to be recovering from his injury, that is, regaining sensation gradually. But it seems like a lot of great entertainers are passing away lately (Rodney Dangerfield died last week, and Ray Charles a few months earlier).
Gantros
Monday, October 11, 2004 02:31:16 AM
IP: 24.20.243.55
7th:
And...
A moment of silence for Christopher Reeve.
Leo - [<- 'Superman' star Christopher Reeve dead at 52]
Monday, October 11, 2004 02:18:04 AM
IP: 68.231.241.236
6th!
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Monday, October 11, 2004 02:15:25 AM
IP: 207.65.59.129
5th...maybe...
Anyways, I recently saw a new show on the channel Trio. Trio features movies and shows from the 80s and 90s mostly. Little known stuff. Flops. And big stuff as well.
A new show called, "Brilliant, But Cancelled" recently aired. They have a message board and I am joining now and adding Gargoyles to the list to try and get them to feature it. If enough people raise their voice, maybe they will do a segment on it. Click my name or copy and paste: http://66.77.88.172/ubb/trio/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&BypassCookie=true
Siren
Monday, October 11, 2004 01:51:34 AM
IP: 24.165.226.120
........................4th.
Vin
castle0909
Monday, October 11, 2004 01:09:21 AM
IP: 64.12.116.74
3rd in the name of the fay!
Mooncat
Mooncat
Monday, October 11, 2004 12:33:29 AM
IP: 68.102.17.133
#2! Yes!
Kristen - [zzilly14@yahoo.com]
Virginia, USA
Monday, October 11, 2004 12:18:06 AM
IP: 199.249.157.129
Top 10, #1!!
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, October 11, 2004 12:03:55 AM
IP: 67.14.195.12