Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

BISHANSKY - Good point about that. And for those officials who are too honest to take bribes, and who won't be intimidated, there's another stratagem that Castaway (or the Illuminati in its backer role) can use.

Looking at the "parallel case" of Batman (after all, the Hunters were partly designed as a twisted version of him), one of the big reasons why Batman isn't being hauled in by the police on charges of vigilantism is because they recognize that, in a city as overrun with bizarre criminals such as the Joker, Two-Face, the Scarecrow, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, etc., as Gotham, they need all the help that they can get. Maybe Castaway uses a similar angle in negotiations with any city officials who disapprove of his tactics, arguing that the gargoyles are a major threat to Manhattan, the Gargoyle Task Force under Matt Bluestone is clearly not doing enough to stop them, and he and his Quarrymen are all that stand between New York and "those monsters". "What are you going to do? Condemn every man, woman, and child in Manhattan to be slaughtered and eaten by gargoyles just because of a few nit-picking regulations?"
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 7:23:37 pm EDT from 4.244.12.153

Greg B> That's a very good point.

Has Greg W.'s site reached his intended goal of 100 Gathering entries yet?
kingcobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
King Cobra3
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 7:17:30 pm EDT from 4.224.63.172

King Cobra> Never underestimate the delusions of fanatics. I said they probably don't know the specifics. Hell, even Goliath is not sure just how much damage she can take, which is why he wasn't sure if she survived the fire in "The Reckoning".

TODD> Well, also keep in mind that the Illuminati are backing the Quarrymen. I'm sure there will be a few city officials in the Quarrymen's pocket. Money does talk.
Greg Bishansky
Always bet on stupidity.
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 7:14:14 pm EDT from 69.118.108.212

Greg B> I always thought the Hunters were under the impression (due to their conversation in Hunter's Moon about it) that Demona was KEEPING herself with sorcery, instead of simply being immortal.

If Castaway really knew that, then what's the point of him trying to destroy ALL of the Gargoyles? If he KNEW about Demona's immortality, wouldn't he also know that it'd be a pointless goal?
kingcobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
King Cobra3
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 7:11:17 pm EDT from 4.224.63.172

King Cobra> I think Castaway already knows Demona is immortal. His family has been hunting her for the past almost ten centuries. He may not know the specifics, but he knows she's immortal.
Greg Bishansky
Always bet on stupidity.
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 7:05:49 pm EDT from 69.118.108.212

eeps. Typing error there.

I meant to say "launch a strike against Demona".

My bad. *sheepish* I was typing fast. *shrugs*
kingcobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
King Cobra3
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 6:56:04 pm EDT from 4.224.63.172

Todd Jensen> I agree wholeheartedly that the Quarrymen would most likely stick to "low-key" operations in regards to their attacks of the "monsters", but what would Castaway do if, say, what was supposed to be a quiet, non-attention-grabbing plan goes horribly wrong, and the authorities take notice of their activities? Also, given that they don't want to be noticed, for lack of a better word, how do they handle themselves, given that a close friend of the clan is not only a cop, but also a high-ranking detective?

While I'm on the subject, it would be interesting if Castaway launched a strike, only to discover that she's immortal. Think of the story possibilities there...
kingcobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
King Cobra3
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 6:54:44 pm EDT from 4.224.63.172

I think that the real "public relations" issue that the Quarrymen would have to guard against (or Castaway, to be more accurate) would be not just the risk of the general public viewing them as oddballs, but the authorities viewing them as vigilantes, taking the law into their own hands. As I mentioned before, I have a strong suspicion that there are going to be many people in high places in New York who, while they might not like gargoyles, disapprove of Castaway and his band running around after them. (They're certainly also likely to disapprove of Castaway's "Take no prisoners" policy, given how rare the gargoyles are; they'd want the gargs taken alive for scientific study.)

Incidentally, Greg hinted once that that was one reason why the Quarrymen's weapon of choice is an electrified hammer rather than a laser gun - they need close-up weapons so that they can keep their battles with the gargoyles as low-key as possible and make it less likely that the police will be paying serious attention to them. In fact, I think that Castaway would be doing all that he could to take a super "hush-hush" policy towards all out-and-out attacks on the gargoyles (as opposed to, say, putting up billboards or airing television commercials that portray the gargoyles in a bad light).
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 6:38:49 pm EDT from 4.244.12.153

Battle Beast> Will they be in complete box sets or various episode-to-episode packs (ala Teen Titans DVD)?
kingcobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
King Cobra3
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 4:42:09 pm EDT from 4.224.63.172

Shan - Okay, then I totally missed your point... exactly what were you trying to imply? Awkward that you were a participant in the thread? Huh? You don't have to post if it makes you uncomfortable.

"Greg Weisman definitely doesn't make any distinctions, nor do I."

Um... you just did. Did I miss your point again? Was there a reason to bringing Greg Weisman into this?

"But sometimes (not recently) I see posters who get too caught up just flat out blaming the other writers and don't look past that."

If not recently, then why bring it up now at all? Why jump Greg Bishansky's case for something someone from the past did to offend you? If you are looking for nice happy words about TGC you're probably in the wrong place. Sorry...
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
"Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. " -- Mal, Firefly
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 3:35:33 pm EDT from 216.195.244.80

WOW, I'M SOOOO PROUD!!! One of my karate Sensei's won gold at the commonwealth championships in New Zealand while representing Wales this weekend. My other Snsei just missed out on a kata medal, but both helped Wales secure a team bronze!
dudette
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 11:47:33 am EDT from 62.252.32.16

HoE and Todd> Oh, I think Castaway can keep his grip on many of the ordinary citizens. Never underestimate the power of fear and ignorance on the average joe.

Shan> Don't worry about it.

Jen> I love you, just so you know ;)
Greg Bishansky - [I call bullshit]
Always bet on stupidity.
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 11:29:52 am EDT from 69.118.108.212

Greg B: I never got that little tidbit of info about the Quarrymen from Greg himself. I got it from a conversation with someone else. While I don't think the organization would ever break up, I think there would still be people who would join the Quarrymen, and after a few weeks they might think, "okay, this guy is a little crazy." They might be uncomfortable with gargoyles because they're strange, but they might also be uncomfortable around a man who looks upon himself as a general conducting a war. And then there would be people who'd stay on. But still, one would have to wonder what the public opinion of the Quarrymen would be. Gargoyles might seem strange, but there might be some people who'd also feel the same way about a bunch of guys who put on hoods and go around smashing statues.

I imagine that more people might be bothered by them in 2198. The KKK are more unpopular today than they were when they were first formed, largely because of shifts in the social climate.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Harvester of Eyes, that's me! And I see all there is to see!"
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 10:33:50 am EDT from 69.174.1.148

GregB, Jen>Whoops, looks like I implied more than the surface comment I was just actually looking to make there. It was more awkward that I was a participant in the thread than what was being said. Greg Weisman definitely doesn't make any distinctions, nor do I. But sometimes (not recently) I see posters who get too caught up just flat out blaming the other writers and don't look past that. That's all I was meaning to talk about. Sorry for any undue concern.
Shannon "Shan" Muir - [shanemuir@aol.com]
Shannon "Shan" Muir
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 9:21:08 am EDT from 207.200.116.196

I've said this before, but I think that, for the Quarrymen to be an organization founded on xenophobia and racial hatred, you're going to need some ordinary citizens in it. The criminals and mercenaries will be going after the gargoyles anyway, simply because Goliath and his clan are protectors. There's no way that the Manhattan underworld is going to be able to tolerate their presence in New York, even if somebody were to somehow magically remove the tendency towards fearing the strange and different from the human race.

I certainly believe that, if Castaway's behavior in "The Journey" and Vinnie's response to it is any indication, Castaway might wind up having a difficult time keeping the frightened people in the meeting-hall in the movement. But they've got to make up a reasonable percentage of it, to keep the Quarrymen an expression of prejudice. (To put it another way, imagine this scenario: a mob boss in Gotham City organizes a lot of the criminals there into a team for the specific purpose of getting rid of Batman, wearing hooded uniforms and armed with electronic "Bat-Zappers". Are xenophobia and racial prejudice the first things that will come to mind regarding that group?)

Of course, the Quarrymen being composed primarily of the criminals whom the gargoyles have been foiling for the past few years, as opposed to people like Billy and Susan's mother, Art and Lois, the Jogger, etc. might still work as a racist organization if it was portrayed as going after all gargoyles equally, regardless of whether they believe in protecting humans or not, if it targeted Demona or Thailog (or even "isolationist" gargoyles like Leo and Una in "M.I.A." who believe that human-on-human crime is not their business) just as often as it did Goliath and his clan. But since Goliath and his clan are the stars of the series - and the most obvious targets of gargoyle-haters in New York (Demona and Thailog are good at staying undercover, and the public don't know about the Clones in the Labyrinth as yet) - they'll be the ones whom the Quarrymen are after 9 times out of 10.

At any rate, for the Quarrymen to work in their role, they'll need to come across as people who primarily need to learn to stop hating others because they're different, as opposed to people who primarily need to learn to stop preying on their fellow humans and start earning an honest living.
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 7:42:50 am EDT from 4.244.12.242

Shan - Greg didn't say "The guy who wrote the episode". He said the TGC CREW. I don't see that as pointing an individual finger at any one person in particular. Tell Brooks Wachtel that he can sleep well tonight, Greg Bishansky doesn't hold him completely accountable for all of TGS. :P
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
"Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. " -- Mal, Firefly
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 2:49:12 am EDT from 216.195.244.80

Harvester of Eyes> Ducktales> NO, not yet. Duck and RR come out November 8th.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
11 days untill I'm standing in the middle of 1313 Harbor Boulevard!
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 1:36:47 am EDT from 198.53.28.99

SHAN> I have no doubt he did his best with what he had. The TGC crew, while I make no secret of not liking their work, I am very well aware and have often said (maybe not here, I'll admit) that they were in a very unenviable position.

When I critisize those episodes, and what went into them, it's not meant to be a personal attack on anyone involved. Believe me. I've seen writers of other series actually receive death threats, which in my opinion is crossing a line... well, speeding over a line till you can't see it.

Yeah, I know I've been guilty of coming off as pretty vicious about some things (something I am making an effort to change), and yeah, I will probably still critisize those episodes, especially as we get closer to the release of the comic and when season three comes out on DVD. But, it is not a personal attack on anyone.

Hell, I understand that critisism comes with the territory. I'm going to film school and hoping to make it in the industry myself.

Okay, I'm rambling. I've probably got a point in there somewhere, but it's pretty late and I got up pretty early (for me) this morning. But yeah, I may have hated "Generations", but I have nothing personal against the guy who wrote it, whom I'm sure did the best he could in an unenviable position.
Greg Bishansky - [I call bullshit]
DO NOT WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 12:22:57 am EDT from 69.118.108.212

HoE, GregBishansky> I'm in the awkward position of actually knowing the writer who got handed the Demona episode of TGC. To his credit (and he's a nice guy), he got handed a premise on an existing series with a long involved history with the original showrunner gone. He did his best to do the job as he knew how, I think, from discussions I've had with him. But I have made him aware of how the fandom feels about TGC in relation to the rest of the franchise, and he seems to be understanding about that. Though neither of you are doing that, sometimes it feels like the TGC writers seem to get a little too attacked for not following Greg's vision. There had to be so many factors at play I don't point individual fingers, but I will admit, TGC is nowhere near as strong as the first 65 episodes.
Shannon "Shan" Muir - [shanemuir@aol.com]
Shannon "Shan" Muir
posted @ Sun, Aug 14, 2005 12:06:26 am EDT from 207.200.116.196

HoE> Well, about Demona, yes Greg did mention back in 2001 that he had an episode planned where Demona turned her attention to Angela. He did not elaborate further, but I'm sure we'll see it in the comic at some point, and it's got to be better than what the TGC crew did. I mean, Demona and the Quarrymen working together? It's out of character for both.

That being said, I wouldn't expect to see over night redemption for Demona either. Personally, from what little I've picked up, I don't think Goliath or Angela will live to see Demona's epiphany, as Greg's plans for 2198 suggest that Demona is still very much anti-human, just that the Space-Spawn are an even bigger threat.

If anything, I hope the Quarrymen issue becomes more fuel for Demona's fire. Something she can use to make her point. We'll see.

Though, a few clarifications, Greg once said that the Illuminati didn't approach Jon Canmore, Jon actually went to them. Beyond that, we don't know what else happened.

"I remember hearing that eventually, most of the ordinary people who joined the Quarrymen because they were scared and wanted answers and/or security would have come to realize that Castaway was the true evil. How they get there, though, would probably be interesting."

Greg never said this. It might happen, but Greg never said it. Yes, the Quarrymen would indeed be made up of frightened citizens, along with mercenaries and a few criminals. But the Quarrymen weren't planned to be a temporary thing, they would have still been around in the year 2198, led by Castaway's descendants. Why? Well, the Ku Klux Klan is still around to this day. Hatred and stupidity never die... unfortunatly.

We'll see, the comic should be out in less than a year, and finally, finally we'll get to see the third season done right.
Greg Bishansky
DO NOT WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted @ Sat, Aug 13, 2005 11:17:42 pm EDT from 69.118.108.212

Greetings all...

If Kathy Pogge or anyone from the Vegas Staff can read this, please get in touch with me ASAP. I am still waiting for my gratis copy of the Eye of Odin book, and have tried contacting through the Gathering website, but no reply has come back.

THE NEW COMIC - I'm looking forward to this, just to see how "The Journey" looks, since I have only seen a couple of the TGC eps... but that was years ago.

That's all from me for now... though I'm considering putting up my own observations and comments on the orginal animated series. Considering we've heard Greg and Todd's comments, why not get someone else's view on the series as well?

That's all from me for now...

Maintain and Check Six!
Stephen Sobotka Jr
"It is the way of the Jedi to comprehend bad comedy... in other words, "Feel the Farce."
posted @ Sat, Aug 13, 2005 11:05:12 pm EDT from 24.28.10.202

First time posting here, but I read in the other chat room about a Season Three discussion going on in here and wanted to tear myself off a piece a'that.

Where do I start? Well, first, I just wanted to say it's probably more likely that the Halloween the Double Date episode would have taken place on would be 1997. I think the city would still be a little volatile in the few weeks immediately following October 26th. Besides, does anyone know what date "The Journey" is supposed to have taken place on? I imagine there is a chance it could have taken place between October 26th and Halloween. The discussion of gargoyles still seemed like an extremely hot issue in the media, and there was Hudson's remark to Goliath that the city was a tinderbox, implying that the events of "Hunter's Moon" were still fairly recent. I imagine that Jon Canmore was probably approached by the Illuminati's reps shortly after the night of October 26th (they do run the world, after all), which makes you wonder how long they had an organization like the Quarryman planned and just needed someone they could mold into its leader. I remember hearing that eventually, most of the ordinary people who joined the Quarrymen because they were scared and wanted answers and/or security would have come to realize that Castaway was the true evil. How they get there, though, would probably be interesting.

Speaking of the Illuminati, did Greg ever hint at what he wanted to do with them in Season 3? I imagine if he did, it was nothing like the crime against nature that "To Serve Mankind" was. It's funny. I think Todd once said in the other CR that everyone on Earth might be united if we all realized that the one thing we had in common was hatred for Jar Jar Binks. I think a similar statment could be created using Gargoyles fans and E--n P-x. Let's join hands, everyone!

Anyway, moving right along, my next question is for Bishansky: has Greg said anything else other than that he had a Demona episode planned for Season 3 (An idea which, of course, the TGC Staff, like a character in a Three Stooges film who's been handed a priceless and fragile Ming Dynasty vase...well, you get the idea)? If there are any further comments on it, I'd be interested in reading.

Todd: Another problem with "And Justice for All" is that a recording made of someone's voice without their consent is usually inadmissable as evidence (unless it's a wire tap or something where the poilce actually have permission from a judge or a DA to listen to the conversation). I imagine that, yes, most of an episode like that would have to be spent trying to convince the court (especially Margot, who's very vocal in her opinion that gargoyles are just animals) that Goliath is actually a sentient being who can distinguish right and wrong. But that debate would be more interesting than the trial, I would think.

I've never heard about his planning an episode where Renard died. That one would be interesting. Characters have died on the show, but I don't think there's been an episode actually reflecting upon death.

I also imagine that if Greg did have another story in mind with Bronx as a central character, it would have been ten thousand times more interesting than "A Bronx Tail." Having a good amount of Irish blood in me, I always ranked "Hound of Ulster" as one of my favorite World Tour episodes, right up there with "Shadows of the Past" and "Sanctuary." So at first, I thought another Bronx episode would be a good idea. Instead, it killed my interest in the Goliath Chronicles (which was already very slowly dying, but that episode injected the final dose of potassium chloride into its IV).

And I forget who made the comment about Taurus in New York, but a friend of mine (who's a bigger Gargoyles fan than I am) actually told me when I asked her about it that Greg did want to tell a story in Season Three that would have provided segway for the New Olympians spinoff. The TGC Staff turned it into "Seeing Isn't Believing," so Greg's original idea probably did involve Taurus and possibly other characters from New Olympus coming to Manhattan.

And DuckTales is on DVD now? Okay, now we just need a few of the WB Cartoons. Top of the list is Freakazoid!
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Harvester of Eyes, that's me! And I see all there is to see!"
posted @ Sat, Aug 13, 2005 10:50:33 pm EDT from 69.174.1.148

King Cobra3> November 8th, Duck Tales and Rescue Rangers come out in two separate sets.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
11 days untill I'm standing in the middle of 1313 Harbor Boulevard!
posted @ Sat, Aug 13, 2005 9:39:38 pm EDT from 198.53.28.99

I think the reaction would be a lot more along the lines of vicious beasts, monsters or even demons than terrorists.

Keep in mind, the general public at large is unaware that gargoyles are sentient beings. A terrorist is a sentient being.

Is a couger who mauls a bunch of campers and kills them a terrorist? No. Is a shark that eats a surfer a terrorist? No.
Greg Bishansky
DO NOT WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted @ Sat, Aug 13, 2005 11:13:55 am EDT from 69.118.108.212

Battle Beast>*blanks* I haven't exactly been up to date lately on DVD cartoon sets (aside from "Gargoyles) info. What show is coming out in "two DVD sets", and what month do they come out on "Tuesday the 8th"?

I personally don't see the people labelling the clan as "Terrorists" either. Like you've said, they're never hurt anyone. Although I must point out the Clock Tower being destroyed as a means that the public could be swayed into believing that the "monsters" are also terrorists. Even though they didn't actually do it, the media (especially Jon Canmore/Castaway) helped to sway the eye of suspicion onto them.

Shows how much power the media can have. Especially in a fictional cartoon series. LOL.
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 13, 2005 11:08:30 am EDT from 4.224.231.46

Shara Mordinae> *Sobs* I don't get Toon Dinsey. *Sobs again* I live in Canada... don't get that station up here. (Though I hope the Disneyland Hotel will have it...)

I haven't seen Rescue Rangers in about a deacde, and I haven't seen Duck Tales in about two years. I just downloaded an episode of Gummmie Bears off lime wire, and that was a real treat!!!

I used to watch the Diz Afternoon (3-5 PM Mountain!) *EVERY* Saturday. Gummie Bears was first, then Rescue Rangers, then Tale Spin, and finally Dark-Wing Duck. Then the shows got stupid: Bonkers, Aladdin, etc, the first four shows being dropped, one each season. Then my life changed when Gargoyles came on board... first ep I saw was "Awakening 2" (I was hooked.)

I am still overjoyed at the news, and I will be there on Tuesday the 8th to pick up the two DVD sets!!!

Terrorists> I don't hink that they public would lable them as such... they've never really hurt people, have they? I think they would be called "monsters" if anything.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
11½ days untill I'm standing in the middle of 1313 Harbor Boulevard!
posted @ Sat, Aug 13, 2005 10:50:05 am EDT from 198.53.28.99

I seriously doubt that the gargoyles would have the label "terrorists" affixed to them, simply because the public don't view the gargoyles as intelligent life-forms. They see them as merely savage wild animals at this point. They'd no more think of calling gargoyles terrorists than wolves or mountain lions or grizzly bears terrorists.
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Sat, Aug 13, 2005 7:10:50 am EDT from 4.244.12.135

A question for you guys who were at this year's Gathering (and who were lucky enough to not have financial problems that kept you from going, which is why I had to cancel my registration.)

Can someone tell me what episode was MiSTed at this year's Gargoyle Science Theater? No reason, really. I'm just curious.

*counting the days until G2006*
kingcobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
King Cobra3
posted @ Sat, Aug 13, 2005 4:01:07 am EDT from 4.224.228.193

Heh, Shannon, you're right 100% about that. Rescue Rangers and Talespin are now only on in the early morning hours (or "wee hours" as I personally can see Hudson calling them) and Ducktales (which, BTW, used to be a favorite of mine until RR, and then much later, Darkwing Duck and Gargoyles, came along.) doesn't play on any channel at all.

Shara Mordinae, you'd also be right. It wouldn't surprise me at all that Disney would pull this on us in the name of cash. :)
kingcobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
King Cobra3
posted @ Sat, Aug 13, 2005 3:38:09 am EDT from 4.224.228.193

*Long time lurker, first time poster!*

Todd Jensen> I agree that rebooting would be a strong alienator, I like your ideas though! I think the best would probably be the animation of stone, as that would keep the magic element in it!

Greg Bishansky(way down there)> I agree with you that skipping over everything from 1996 to the present is wasteful and would also probably be confusing if they skipped over undisclosed story lines.
But, assuming no skipping is indicated, I disagree with not mentioning the date. I think the date is very important, considering how much the United States (and the rest of world) has changed in the past ten years. Politically, culturally, socially, things have changed a lot. I immagine that if the gargoyles were to be exposed to the public for the first time today, their experience would be much different than in 1996. They'd probably be charged as terrorists or some such in present times. Therefore, assuming the comic does pick up back in 1996 I think it would be important to make clear what year it is, if not through the date, then at least clearly setting it in the norms of that time period.
The Sacrificial Maiden - [8th@rogers.com]
"In inclement weather the people are fey..." -Giant
posted @ Sat, Aug 13, 2005 2:00:34 am EDT from 24.157.28.149

Shara, Battlebeast> Actually, RESCUE RANGERS and TALESPIN run in the early morning hours on TOON DISNEY. I think it's 1:30 AM Pacific Time for RR and midnight for TALESPIN. DUCKTALES I don't think airs at all now.
Shannon "Shan" Muir - [shanemuir@aol.com]
Shannon "Shan" Muir
posted @ Sat, Aug 13, 2005 1:43:27 am EDT from 207.200.116.196

Battlebeast>Hehe yeah thats the whole reason disney pulled ducktales, rescue rangers and talespin etc from the toon disney channel. TO put it on dvd so you have to buy it to watch it now. Tricky of them.

but guess what is on dvd right now. THUNDERCATS HOOOOO!!!!!!. Relives my childhood and clutches thundercats dvd's.
Shara Mordinae - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 13, 2005 1:09:52 am EDT from 209.179.193.131

Rebooting Gargoyles continuity would certainly alienate almost all of the fans - and would certainly be a foolish move on Disney's part, since it would thereby alienate the core buyers and increase the probability of poor sales. Though I did have a few crazy creativity demons over alternate "origin stories" for the gargoyles in such reboots (taking for the premise that the people behind the "start the continuity from scratch" idea wanted to get rid of the idea of gargoyles being a race and the clan's origins in medieval Scotland).

1. The gargoyles originate as statues, plain and simple, but are brought to life during a freak storm in New York that somehow (through the usual pseudo-scientific process found in a super-hero origin story) animates them.

2. The gargoyles are originally humans but mutated into gargoyles a la the Mutates in the original series (which has the drawback, of course, that the audience will be subconsciously expecting the gargoyles to be turned back into humans eventually, which would automatically end the series).

3. The gargoyles are ordinary human crime-fighters who wear gargoyle costumes or high-tech gargoyle-shaped armor to strike terror into the hearts of superstitious criminals (thus having the risk of turning into the Batman rip-off that Greg Weisman and Co. feared that "Gargoyles" would be perceived as being) - maybe even set in a world where the "Gargoyles" television series exists and the protagonists, faced with a crime wave in their home city, use it as inspiration for their plan.
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Fri, Aug 12, 2005 8:34:10 pm EDT from 4.244.12.65

Realized I should clarify one thing -- there is nothing known as being in the works for JEM, but it is a constant hot *hypothetical* debate regardless, just is happening here now. Though in GARGOYLES case, there is an alternate medium as a reality.
Shannon "Shan" Muir - [shanemuir@aol.com]
Shannon "Shan" Muir
posted @ Fri, Aug 12, 2005 5:37:31 pm EDT from 206.170.252.42

Timeline issues> Over on the JEM list, we hear the exact same issues brought up again about picking up where things left off, moving forward to the present while acknowledging things happened "off stage" as well as in the original show, or just starting off in the present and minimizing references to the original show. (The possibility of "rebooting" the property does surface but is quickly shot down.) From the extended debates and discussions I've seen there, there seems to be no easy answer that will please everyone.

I do have to say that at least it's not the VOLTRON situation with Disney saying "yes you can do Gargoyles as long as you retell it from scratch". Don't get me wrong, I think in the end they told a good story before that book was cancelled 11 issues into Volume 2. It was just such a radical retelling from the original property that I think more than a few people were disenchanted quickly; I even started out as a naysayer but at least I hung on and rode out an awkward storm. Before that you had VOLTRON THE THIRD DIMENSION which while it moved forward in time and skipped five years, picked and chose what of the past it would acknowlege and what it would not (much to the teeth gnashing of many Keith and Allura fans, as it acted like their budding romance never happened!).

Like GregXBishansky said, the timeline issue is a bridge to be crossed if and when (and I'd certaintly vote for when under the right circumstances!) GARGOYLES gets the chance to return to animation again.
Shannon "Shan" Muir - [shanemuir@aol.com]
Shannon "Shan" Muir
posted @ Fri, Aug 12, 2005 5:35:36 pm EDT from 206.170.252.42

Hey! I liked Gummi Bears! Wuzzles, eh, that one I lost interest in after I finally saw it real fast.

Still, it's cool that Ducktales is coming out on DVD. That was a good series that actually holds up pretty well with recent viewings (if I recall, ToonDisney or Disney was re-airing them within the last year or so).
Asatira
posted @ Fri, Aug 12, 2005 5:18:46 pm EDT from 68.117.246.188

***IS LITERALLY BOUNCING OFF THE WALLS WITH JOY AT THE NEWS***

I JUST CHECKED ULTIMATE DISNEY.COM AND...

WAHOO!!! ZOWIE!!!!!! MY WORLD IS ALMOST COMPLETE!!!!

AM I DREAMING?!?!? GARGOYLES PART 2??? DUCKTALES??? CHIP & DALE'S RESCUE RANGER??? ON DVD??? ZOWIE!!!!

WAHOO!!!!

COME ON, GUMMIE BEARS, PAPA NEEDS A COMPLETE DVD SET!!!

ZOWIEE!!!!!

***IS NOWWHERE NEAR CALM***
Battle Beast - [Canada]
12 days untill I'm standing in the middle of 1313 Harbor Boulevard!
posted @ Fri, Aug 12, 2005 5:13:37 pm EDT from 198.53.28.99

http://www.retrojunk.com/details_theme/26/
IRC Goliath - [goliath1 [at] pacbell [dot] net]
"Bouncing here and there and everywhere..."
posted @ Fri, Aug 12, 2005 12:41:49 pm EDT from 209.234.142.80

Matt - Thou shalt not disrespect the Gummi Bears! ;)
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Jayne. You'll keep a civil tongue in that mouth or I will sew it shut, is there an understanding between us? - Mal, Firefly
posted @ Fri, Aug 12, 2005 12:39:22 pm EDT from 71.103.249.33

Greg B, Was there any mention of Darkwing Duck or Tailspin, or God Forbid, even Gummi Bears/Wuzzles.
Matt Fews
'The turkey' s just my room-mate' Chutney FOTP
posted @ Fri, Aug 12, 2005 11:56:50 am EDT from 206.47.191.83

There is the precedent in "year-skipping" with The New Batman/Superman Adventures picking up a couple of years after "Batman: TAS" had ended. But I don't think that that would apply to "Gargoyles" so well, partly because we're dealing with a gap of ten years, and partly because the gargoyles have more of a "home-life" than Batman does.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 12, 2005 10:04:47 am EDT from 198.209.226.130

LORD GARGFAN> As cool as Prime Time would be, it would just not be ideal, unless on a cable network with money to spend (which Toon Disney is not), Gargoyles, as much as we like to think it would would not last on network prime time. Animated dramas have never lasted in prime time.

I still don't really get why so many people seem to want the events of 1996 to 2005 cut out. That's about a decade's worth of really, really good stories, which I don't want to lose, and I'm glad Greg feels the same way.

There is an easy solution, and that is never saying what year it is on screen, and we have Ask Greg for anyone that's really curious.
Greg Bishansky
DO NOT WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted @ Fri, Aug 12, 2005 10:00:36 am EDT from 69.118.108.212

I always hoped that Gargoyles wouldn't get picked up as a Saturday moring cartoon show. I was hoping for an animated prime-time drama. Considering that the die-hard fans are adults, I think that that would be justification enough for the prime-time move. I always hoped that they would make a series of "mini-movies" explaining from 1996 to the present, or in this case, from the comic to the present. Of course, in my dream world, Eisner is out and Roy is in (and Greg is the writer of the series and rules with an iron fist the production team.
Lord GargFan
posted @ Fri, Aug 12, 2005 1:03:04 am EDT from 67.185.229.228

JURGAN> Honestly, I don't think the timeline stuff is a problem. Not a problem whatsoever. The date doesn't need to be said, the Twin Towers don't have to be shown, and if anyone's curious, that's what ASK GREG is for.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Fri, Aug 12, 2005 12:25:24 am EDT from 69.118.108.212

The problem with a return to TV, to me, has always been the timeline. The show ended in 1996, so a renewal would have trouble picking up where it left off, as people would have trouble realizing that it was set nine years ago. My thoughts were that the comics could close the gap between then and the present, and then a revived show could pick up. Of course, that would kind of rush through those years, and you're right about the S&P concerns, so maybe this is for the best.

And thanks for the news about the other DVD's. I'm definitely picking up DuckTales at least.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
"Note well an endlessness of little dogs, receding through progressive diminution to a revelation of the ultimate truth... Beyond the last visible dog." Russell Hoban, The Mouse and His Child
posted @ Fri, Aug 12, 2005 12:15:05 am EDT from 69.242.207.44

VIN> I'd say that we'd cross that bridge when and if we ever come to it.

Personally, I don't think TV is the ideal place for "Gargoyles" right now, what with broadcasts standards and practices becoming more and more cowardly every year. Maybe some day. But right now, I think comics are the ideal place for Gargoyles.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Thu, Aug 11, 2005 11:48:53 pm EDT from 69.118.108.212

........................One thing to think about. Most of us have the one big wish that the show comes back to television. If it ever did, how would they then deal with the fact that there was a comic book. Since the show ended, there was only one real episode on TV, The rest of Season 3 TGC could be ignored.

If the comic book comes out, then say, the TV show gets picked up, does the comic book get reanimated into new episodes, or would the comics stay comics, and just have the TV show pick up from where the comics left off?
That is, if it ever were to come back to TV, something to hope for...

Vin
castle0909
posted @ Thu, Aug 11, 2005 11:45:00 pm EDT from 205.188.117.11

For those interested, Disney is now releasing DVD sets of Duck Tales and Rescue Rangers. I don't plan to pick these up, but for those who are fans, I wonder if the relative success of our DVD paved the way for these. Either way, it's cool that Disney is seeing potential in it's older television properties.

http://ultimatedisney.com/

As for the comic book, the only thing I really want to see is Greg's take on the world and characters post Hunter's Moon. I don't have any real expectations except for good, compelling stories. I just want to sit back and let Greg bring me into this world again.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Thu, Aug 11, 2005 10:11:14 pm EDT from 69.118.108.212

I never really posted this because... wel,, I don't know why. But people keep on talkin' about what they want to see in the new comic, so I thought I might as well give my 2¢.

The one thing I want to see in the new comic is the story of the hunter. I want to see him in 1600's, and one, up untill the canmore kids' father is thrown off the building by Demona.

The Hunter is one of the things in the original series that was never expanded upon (but I know it would be, eventually).

The other thing I want to see is more interaction between the gargoyle clans, especially between theManhattan clan and the rest of them. (Does that make sense?)
Battle Beast - [Canada]
13 days untill I'm standing in the middle of 1313 Harbor Boulevard!
posted @ Thu, Aug 11, 2005 8:31:42 pm EDT from 198.53.28.99

It could be argued that the existence of Gillecomgain as the Hunter made it possible for the Hunter-identity to exist for Duncan and Canmore to assume. Not to mention that most likely Demona got the Hunters moving again with an attack upon Canmore or something of that sort.
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Thu, Aug 11, 2005 7:58:42 pm EDT from 4.244.18.167

i saw the oher day (AGAIN!!) city of ston 4, and i always get upset when the weird sisters blame demona about the hunters. YES, she create the first one, she ataked a poor boy who nathing had to do with her own problems, but i think she had no responsability about Canmor`s part, it`s the first Canmore`s hate what make him became the hunter, HE chose to be the hunter without other reason than his own evilness. Demona`s responsability with the creation of the hunter ended with the death of Gillecogmain (or something like that...). Well, that`s all.
Demon@
posted @ Thu, Aug 11, 2005 6:36:29 pm EDT from 168.226.121.140

It's up! I've finally done it - it wore my fingers down to the nubs, but I've finally posted my Con Journal here at Ask Greg and on my LJ.

Now quit bugging me over it :P

Matt Fews> Welcome.
Chameleongirl - [< - Look! Easter Fever!]
POR QUE!!!!!!
posted @ Thu, Aug 11, 2005 6:36:14 pm EDT from 216.195.244.80

Chameleongirl, Thanx bunches.
Matt Fews
'The turkey' s just my room-mate' Chutney FOTP
posted @ Thu, Aug 11, 2005 2:52:37 pm EDT from 206.47.191.83

Matt Fews> I did a search on Amazon.com and while the site itself doesn't stock it, a customer-run store does have a brand new, unopened copy of the vhs version available.
The link is in my name.
Chameleongirl - [< - Look! Easter Fever!]
POR QUE!!!!!!
posted @ Thu, Aug 11, 2005 2:27:07 pm EDT from 216.195.244.80

Ten?

TEN?

I'm looking for 100 ConJournals, and Todd tells me we have ten?

Guys, that's kinda pathetic! Come on, Disney checks this stuff out! Please take a few minutes and at least BEGIN to write up your journals. Then cut and paste them at ASK GREG.

Please... hm? For me...
Greg Weisman
Greg Weisman
posted @ Thu, Aug 11, 2005 1:44:53 pm EDT from 66.245.233.54

Thank you for posting the videos Gore. Makes me wish even more that I had been able to attend.
Vertigo1 - [md2389@gmail.com]
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage (Mythbusters)
posted @ Thu, Aug 11, 2005 1:16:19 pm EDT from 193.251.169.170

Hey guys, just uploaded a bunch of videos from the masquerade. They all have a filename prefix of "masq_" and you can also look at the "last modified" column to see what are the new movies.

I'm not a big fan of the QT. The video's a bit too blocky and the audio a bit too tin-y (how the hell do you go between tiny (small) and tiny (like tin)?) but hey, if you want great quality GO TO THE GATHERING NEXT YEAR!

No worries.
Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
posted @ Thu, Aug 11, 2005 11:27:33 am EDT from 192.207.57.47

Nothing really to say, but...
Battle Beast - [Canada]
13 days untill I'm standing in the middle of 1313 Harbor Boulevard!
posted @ Thu, Aug 11, 2005 11:22:06 am EDT from 198.53.28.99

Chameleongirl, I Googled it, and this is the only site that had any info on it and it didn't mention anything on where to buy it from.
Matt Fews
'The turkey' s just my room-mate' Chutney FOTP
posted @ Thu, Aug 11, 2005 8:05:58 am EDT from 206.47.191.83

One thought that I had about Mab's return: I have a strong suspicion that the entire Third Race would be in danger if she got out (at least, all the ones that we've met so far). The mere fact that they're taking orders from Oberon and attending upon him whenever he holds court on Avalon indicates that they've accepted his authority over Mab's. From her point of view, therefore, they'd all be traitors, every last one of them, who abandoned her cause. (Indeed, the only way that a member of the Third Race could avoid facing Mab's wrath would be if he or she had refused to swear allegiance to Oberon after he overthrew Mab, and was promptly imprisoned alongside her. Those Mab would view as loyal to her. Of course, we don't even know if any such exist as yet; so far as we know, Mab was the only one upset about Oberon's victory.)

The comic book adaptation of "The Journey" under Greg's original plans for it should be great to see. I've had a glimpse of the original script at the Gathering 2001, and also read a few things that Greg said about it at "Ask Greg", enough to know the following:

1. Goliath doesn't glide off with Elisa at the end, but continues jumping from one rooftop to the next, fitting in with his wing having been damaged.

2. The episode is set entirely within the framework of Travis Marshall's broadcast, not only opening with it (in the original version, the very first scenes were of such New Yorkers as Billy and Susan's mother, the Jogger, and Vinnie getting interviewed about the gargoyles, which showed up a bit later in the actual animated program), but ending with it (after Goliath and Elisa head off, we return to Travis Marshall signing off while Margot and Macbeth's debate has degenerated into a big argument).

3. A scene which didn't make it into broadcast about Elisa and Matt talking to Chavez (and continuing to keep it secret about what they know about the gargoyles).

On that note, I find myself curious to see, in the comic, how Elisa and Matt are going to continue to handle preserving what's left of the gargoyles' secrecy. It's a dilemma; on the one hand, now that the public know that the gargoyles exist, not only is keeping quiet about the clan like locking the barn door after the horse escaped, but it could even help to endanger the gargoyles by leaving the only source of information that the public is getting about them in the hands of people like Castaway. On the other hand, given the current mood that the city has towards gargoyles, it's probably much too early to let the clan have any press conferences. (For that matter, Elisa and Matt have another problem - if they openly explain what they know about the gargoyles, they are likely to be facing serious questions over the fact that they were keeping them secret from the public for so long. I somehow doubt that Chavez is going to be amused over Elisa having concealed six or seven mythical creatures in the clock tower of the 23rd precinct police station for almost two years.)
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Thu, Aug 11, 2005 7:28:44 am EDT from 4.244.12.161

Lord GargFan - It's the JLA Showcase 80-page Giant (2000). Greg brought Gargoyles to life again in the Captain Atom segment called "The Flashback of Notre Dame". Funny Stuff. Do a Google search for it. :)
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson - [<---- Cover picture]
"Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony..." --Wash, Firefly
posted @ Wed, Aug 10, 2005 11:48:53 pm EDT from 216.195.244.80

Okay. I'm gonna ask a favor.

I just today found out about Greg's comic book crossover that featured Gargoyles. Does anyone have any scans or know where I could find some online? I'd never even heard of it and I couldn't find anything on Ebay.
Lord GargFan
posted @ Wed, Aug 10, 2005 8:54:18 pm EDT from 67.185.229.228

Hey gang,

Just checking in. I've started my Gathering ConJournal over at ASK GREG. The goal this year is to get a 100 ConJournal's at ASK GREG to show Disney. (Todd, how are we doing so far?)

I know you have many other places to post your journals... and I know it can be a bit of a pain just to find the time to do it at all. But please, it has really helped us in the past, if you take the time to write one up WHEREVER... and then cut & paste it to ASK GREG.

Thanks,
Greg Weisman
Greg Weisman
posted @ Wed, Aug 10, 2005 8:12:25 pm EDT from 66.245.233.54

The thing about "Clan Building", Greg still hasn't written anything, at least as of the 2005 Gathering. He's still weighing his options. He did say he's considering adapting "The Journey" as the first story, since it was designed to work as an introductory story, and it has most of the information he needs to get out there.

We'll see soon I hope.
Greg Bishansky
DO NOT WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted @ Wed, Aug 10, 2005 5:53:18 pm EDT from 69.118.108.212

Todd: I actually had that same problem. As a safeguard, I typically write any long post in a word-processor. It saves a lot of hair-pulling.

Yes, I know Broadway was in "Turf," but he wasn't the featured gargoyle the way he was in "Deadly Force," "Silver Falcon," and (to a slightly lesser extent) "Protection." That episode was more about the whole trio and their relationships with Angela.

I'd forgotten about Queen Mab, too. Maybe the Sisters feel that, if they freed her, they'd get a share of the glory. Of course, given that they're pretty well-treated by Oberon, they might be throwing away a lot on an uncertain future. Hopefully she would seem more threatening than the Archmage did. Am I right in thinking that a lot of the fandom was disappointed by him in Avalon? I know I never really felt that much of a threat from him, but he was a decent antagonist. I've thought about why that is, and I come back to one line: "I've waited a thousand years for this moment... and it was worth the wait." Impressive quip, but what we know (and Goliath doesn't) is that he DIDN'T wait a thousand years at all. Really, it was more like a few hours. I think, if he had really had to work to survive and get the power he had, it might have been better. As is, he seemed less like a villain and more like a tool of the timestream. I like the way the timeloop worked, and I understood it the first time through, but it seemed like the Archmage didn't really have to take any initiative to become the ultimate villain. So, I didn't really care as much about him.

As for Coyote: Remember that he is "programmed for vengeance." Maybe, once his intelligence is advanced enough, he'll decide to go his own way in carrying out his revenge on the gargoyles. This would fall under misinterpreting his mission, so he wouldn't really be thinking for himself. Also, now that Xanatos is protecting the gargoyles, Coyote may actually consider him an enemy, and so the imperative to get revenge may override the imperative to be loyal to Xanatos, leading him to break away from his former master. That scenario starts to remind me of Asimov's robots, in which they constantly have to wonder which of the three laws of robotics is strongest in a given situation. This sounds like a good theory, which makes me think that you guys who've been talking about Gargoyles non-stop for nine years have already discussed it and dismissed it. :)
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
"Note well an endlessness of little dogs, receding through progressive diminution to a revelation of the ultimate truth... Beyond the last visible dog." Russell Hoban, The Mouse and His Child
posted @ Wed, Aug 10, 2005 2:57:46 pm EDT from 69.242.207.44

Since we're offering conjecture on the upcoming comic, what do we make of Greg's comment that the first story arc could be considered "clan building"? Is he building on current characters, or introducing new ones? Is he talking about the Manhattan Clan, or is he building other clans, too? (The Labyrinth Clan comes to mind, as well as the fact that Greg had mentioned Zafiro visiting Manhattan at some point. And if I'm not mistaken, 1998 marks the year that gargoyle eggs all over the world will hatch.)
There are probably no definitive answers until the comic comes out, but we can offer our guesses and opinions. What do you think?
Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
posted @ Wed, Aug 10, 2005 2:07:02 pm EDT from 134.215.203.5

That's OK Todd, we all make mistakes.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
14 days untill I'm standing in the middle of 1313 Harbor Boulevard!
posted @ Wed, Aug 10, 2005 12:13:12 pm EDT from 198.53.28.99

Sorry about that; I'd typed out a long response to some of the posts from last night, and then, when I pushed "Add your Chat", went to a new "Make a Comment" page and wound up losing it all. So I wanted to make certain that the comment room was still working (I suppose that I entered the wrong code by mistake, my fingers missing one key and hitting another without my realizing it).

Anyway:

JURGAN - Broadway *was* in "Turf"; all the trio were in that one, courting Angela, remember.

Like Bishansky, I've wondered whether the Weird Sisters would be the ones to free Queen Mab. On the other hand, I can't help wondering as to whether that would be a serious case of overkill; given how dangerous Mab apparently was, letting her out would mean trouble for more than just the Avalon and Manhattan clans. Mab would obviously want some payback on Oberon for deposing and imprisoning her all those millennia ago (and for all that we know, she might even have her own ideas about what to do concerning the outside world). Letting her out could be like putting a mountain lion in your house to solve the mice problem. (Of course, the Weird Sisters already did just that when they teamed up with the enhanced Archmage.)

I find it strongly tempting to imagine the Sisters being the first to feel Mab's wrath, in fact, in this scenario; the Weird Sisters go to Mab's prison and let her out, followed by Mab at once turning them into stone or frogs or something of that nature (well, maybe not "at once" - possibly the Sisters asking Mab to help them against the Avalon clan and Mab replying indignantly that she is not a tame servant to do their bidding, then zapping them).

I'm curious to see how Coyote will be handled in something like the Ultra-Pack, if he's the one behind it. As I've mentioned before, I have difficulties accepting the notion of robots, computers, or artificial intelligences in general as antagonists (unless they're being used by a living flesh-and-blood being as flunkies, a la Preston Vogel reprogramming the robots on board Fortress-2 in "Outfoxed"), simply because I can't imagine artificial intelligences developing emotions, let alone the emotions that you need to be a villain (such as power-hunger, greed, hatred, vengefulness, etc.). The only A.I. "self-employed" antagonist in "Gargoyles" up to this point, of course, was Matrix (the Xanatos Program in "Future Tense" doesn't count, partly because it was really controlled by Lexington, partly because it was all just an illusion of Puck's), and Matrix was out to reformat the world as a misunderstanding of its mission rather than out of conventional evil-doer motives. So I'm curious to see how Greg will explain Coyote's reasons for setting up the Ultra-Pack.

To close with, a rather naughty little creativity demon (which I certainly don't see showing up in the comic). Brooklyn and Lexington start training Bronx to, in fights with the Quarrymen, go for the crotch, with this explanation: "Children of bigots usually become bigots through picking up their parents' prejudices. So, if we cut down on the Quarrymen's ability to procreate, we'll be cutting down on the number of violent gargoyle-haters in the next generation of humans."
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Wed, Aug 10, 2005 7:57:14 am EDT from 4.244.12.194

test
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Wed, Aug 10, 2005 7:43:46 am EDT from 4.244.12.194

JURGAN> Yes, the comic is happening. Dan Vado promised it at the 2005 Gathering. The first issue should be out sometime in the first half of 2006.

Coyote forming the Ultra-Pack on his own> Well, Greg has hinted at Coyote undergoing several changes, so yes, I can see Coyote taking the initiative to do this. I'm under the impression that he becomes a character similar to Marvel's Ultron.

One other thing is that I'm sure we can expect to see Demona soon in the comic, she is one of the staple characters. Greg hinted at a story he had in mind that the TGC crew turned into "Generations". I definetly want to see what Greg planned for her.

Queen Mab is someone else I expect that we'll see. Honestly though, I suspect that the Weird Sisters are the one who free her from her imprisonment. Greg said a while back that the Sisters are cooking up something big, and they want revenge on Goliath.
Greg Bishansky
DO NOT WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted @ Tue, Aug 9, 2005 11:44:44 pm EDT from 69.118.108.212

I asked a while ago, and no one answered, but the comic is now officially coming out, right? Someone, please answer this: Is it official, or still just a possibility?

All right, now, let's talk plots:

1: The Quarreymen. I feel confident, at least, that these Quarreymen will not be the one-dimensional thugs that TGC made them into. What I'd really like to see is more of the well-meaning citizens who earnestly believe that Gargoyles are a danger. I remember a TGS fanfic where a woman showed Castaway a book called "God Bless the Gargoyles," complaining that her child's teacher was making them read it, and Castaway congratulated her for being a vigilant mother. That's the sort of characterization they should have. Granted, there'll probably be some who are just hired mercenaries, but not all. How much time will the Quarreymen get in the series, though? Given all the stories Greg has planned, it's clear that they won't be in every episode. The culmination of season two, though, was the revelation of the gargoyles' existence to the world, so it seems like dealing with the public's reactions would have to be a major plot. My best guess is that most episodes (I'm still calling them episodes- just out of habit, I suppose) will have the Quarreymen and the reactions of frightened citizens in the background, but only a few will have them as main antagonists. Maybe, whenever the gargs save a random human, we get the typical "get away from us, you monsters!" reaction.

2: The trickster story sounds fascinating and a lot of fun. Greg isn't going to use Anansi and Coyote, though? I always liked Coyote, personally. While a four trickster story sounds like a blast, it would probably be a nightmare to plot. "Posession" was tough enough to follow, but you'd probably need a very large diagram to keep up with a four trickster story.

3: You're probably right that Timedancer wouldn't show up for a bit, just to let new readers know what's being changed. I'm hoping that the new dynamic would lead to some good Lex episodes, though. I always thought Lex was kind of shafted in the original series. Brooklyn had his episodes where he tried to deal with leadership responsibilities, and Broadway got featured in all of the organized crime eps. (except "Turf," I guess), but, after "Leader of the Pack," Lex never had a featured episode. Now, though, Broadway will be spending less time with the gang thanks to his romance with Angela, and once Brooklyn is aged up, the trio will be completely dissolved. This leaves Lex as quite the odd man out, and I wonder what'll become of him in that arrangement. Maybe the feeling of isolation he gets leads to him discovering his homosexuality (though I seriously doubt we'll see that in a story for a good long time, if at all- yet chances are better in a comic than on the air).

4: Halcyon Renard's death. I didn't know that that was part of the master plan in the immediate future. That would certainly have an impact on me. "Outfoxed" is one of my favorite episodes despite its technical problems (most notably the dreadful padding of the in-episode flashback) simply because I loved Renard. I can honestly say that his notions of integrity and responsibility changed the way I think about life. Whenever I feel like saying something I did wasn't my fault, I think back to Renard. One thing I would like to see, though I doubt it will, is for Renard to meet Demona. I think Renard and Demona are natural antagonists based on Greg's statement that the best villains are thematic opposites of the heroes. Most of Demona's problems come from an inability to accept responsibility for her mistakes, so, given Renard's insistence on doing just that, any confrontation between the two of them would be very interesting.

5: I can't think of anything interesting to say about the double date, except that it sounds like fun. Also, I look forward to seeing more of Thailog, whenever it may be.

6: I've never even heard of this one.

7: I didn't realize that the Ultra-Pack would take place so soon. I thought it was something farther into the future. You're right that they can't really top Upgrade in terms of weirdness, but I think the point will be more that they've become a more serious threat than before. Also, I wonder who's behind it- would Coyote really take that much initiative on his own, or is someone else calling the shots? Maybe the Illuminati?

8: I didn't know that this would be part of Greg's plan either. I'm sure it would be a lot better than the "trial" in TGC, which was basically a pretentious monologue from Goliath and a contrived, cliched ending. No doubt it'd be a lot more subtle and intelligent in how it deals with the issue. It might be the end of the public's confusion of whether the gargs are sentient or not, so it would have to be a while before that one showed up.

What else could there be? How about some of the spin-off pilots, like the revelation of the New Olympians to the world? Would that take place in the regular series or be reserved for a spin-off? I assume that was where the Proteus episode in TGC came from.

Hey, I seem to have out-rambled Todd! Wow!
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
"Note well an endlessness of little dogs, receding through progressive diminution to a revelation of the ultimate truth... Beyond the last visible dog." Russell Hoban, The Mouse and His Child
posted @ Tue, Aug 9, 2005 11:18:08 pm EDT from 69.242.207.44

Todd> I enjoy your reviews. I only reply on a couple of episodes (The Price, 4 1) becuase I know them so well. (Better than others.)

That is all I will say.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
15 days untill I'm standing in the middle of 1313 harbor Boulevard!
posted @ Tue, Aug 9, 2005 10:09:38 pm EDT from 198.53.28.99

Matt Fews> There is this remarkable invention called the internet, where, using something called a 'Search Engine', I put in the words Easter Fever and .. lo and behold! The very first site to come up was all about a movie with that name from 1980. Even stranger is was all about the Easter Bunny being replaced ...

Maybe you could have tried that before yelling at us, hey?
Chameleongirl - [< - Look! Easter Fever!]
POR QUE!!!!!!
posted @ Tue, Aug 9, 2005 9:10:00 pm EDT from 216.195.244.80

LORD GARGFAN - Good suggestion about those rambles. Guandalug asked me to send them in to the Gargoyles Fan Website to provide a second set of reviews alongside the set currently there, and I've thought of doing that, but somehow never got around to it. Though your words have probably given me a stimulus to get down to doing it in the next few days.
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Tue, Aug 9, 2005 7:13:41 pm EDT from 4.244.12.200

Sorry to revert to "lurker" status for a while, but there was nothing to say! And Todd, I always enjoyed your Summer rambles since I discovered the CR, but I do agree that if I don't actually watch the tape of the show (I erased over all my tapes once Season Two, Part One was confirmed by Greg) that I won't have anything more to add. Have you ever considered setting up a website (even a free GeoCities one) to post your rambles? Although I enjoy reading them (however long they may be), I think you may have a point. And from the sidelines, it was pretty boring seeing the same post at the top of the page for twelve hours.

And Matt>>I don't ignore you. I just can't figure what the heck you're talking about. And if that means saying "sorry, can't help you" to know that we're not mad about that whole Harry Potter-London thing, then just say so. I can understand where it came from, and I can understand how it became the second biggest fight I've ever seen in the CR. (First biggest: I won't bring it up again, but it involved Lexington and a threat to have someone arrested, and I think it was in October or November)
Lord GargFan
posted @ Tue, Aug 9, 2005 6:56:08 pm EDT from 67.185.229.228

BISHANSKY - Yes, but I was thinking more in light of the question: would Halloween be so much fun if the "spooky creatures" turned out to actually exist?

Greg Weisman's posted the first instalment of his Gathering 2005 report at "Ask Greg".

I watched my tape of "Monsters" today, but I'm a bit hesitant at saying anything about it, since I've noticed that my episode rambles often kill the comment room (for example, after I posted my comments on "Kingdom" last night, it was over 12 hours before anyone else posted anything). I don't know why, but I get the impression that they may be intimidating people here so that they don't post anything. What do the rest of you think?
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Tue, Aug 9, 2005 6:47:05 pm EDT from 4.244.12.108

Jen, I'm pretty sure it was called Easter Fever however like I previously mentioned, I was only 4 when I saw it and therefore my recollection of it is a bit fuzzy.
Matt Fews
'The turkey' s just my room-mate' Chutney FOTP
posted @ Tue, Aug 9, 2005 11:57:48 am EDT from 206.47.191.83

TODD> Well, New Yorkers are pretty resiliant. Take a look at NYC on 9/11 and post 9/11. Yeah, some people may be frightened... frightened enough to join the Quarrymen for example, but few people are going to let it really change their lives.

And you never know, that year, gargoyles might be the new "in-thing" for last minute Halloween costumes.
Greg Bishansky
DO NOT WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted @ Tue, Aug 9, 2005 11:44:38 am EDT from 69.118.108.212

I personally wasn't ignoring you, Matt. I just have no idea what you're talking about. I've never heard of what you're describing. Therefore I can't comment on it. Sorry.
Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
posted @ Tue, Aug 9, 2005 11:34:22 am EDT from 134.215.203.5

Matt - Maybe they are ignoring specifically BECAUSE of your Harry Potter comment. Or perhaps it was because what you posted was like a cartoon LSD flashback and NONE of us understood what the hell you were trying to say.

... or maybe a little of both.

Just some ideas.
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
"It's pretty much down to ritual suicide, lambytoes" - Wash, Firefly
posted @ Tue, Aug 9, 2005 11:28:25 am EDT from 216.195.244.80

To the CR, what gives, You don't ignore me during my 'Harry Potter mess' and yet you ignore me now especially when I made an inquiry for something I saw when I was young. (see my previous post)
Matt Fews
'The turkey' s just my room-mate' Chutney FOTP
posted @ Tue, Aug 9, 2005 10:28:00 am EDT from 206.47.191.83

The one difficulty that I can see with the Double Date taking place in Halloween of 1996 is that, after "real live gargoyles" had been revealed to the New York public just a few days before, I can't help but think that Halloween in the Big Apple would be a subdued occasion that year. It takes a lot of the fun out of celebrating a holiday about mythical creatures of the night if some of those creatures turn out to be not so mythical after all. On the other hand, New Yorkers are a resilient lot, and there could be many who would argue that they'd need Halloween celebrations for a morale-booster. (They certainly didn't have any problem holding that Halloween block party in "Eye of the Beholder" with a monstrous fox-like beast on the loose in the city!)

And I'd certainly like to see the original script for "The Journey" adapted (and particularly have Goliath jumping from one rooftop to the next at the end rather than gliding off on a wing that is supposed to be too damaged to glide on). I'd also like to have a good look at the "Quarryman recruiting scene", to see how many of the familiar "minor characters" are there in the crowd (I know that Vinnie and Billy and Susan's mother were in it in the animated version, but I'd like to see if there was anyone else there that we know - this is the one episode that Greg worked on that I never got to tape).

Speaking of taped episodes, I watched my tape of "Kingdom" this afternoon. One of the few "home front stories" during the Avalon World Tour.

I remember feeling a bit disappointed that they never did anything with Xanatos's offer to search for Goliath and Elisa - though I still don't know what Xanatos would have done with the information. And you would think that his security system would be better - but he gets a lot of good lines, as usual. "Don't you just hate it when people stop by uninvited?" "Do I really need an excuse to have a good time in my own home?" And we get to see Owen making good use of his stone hand.

I'm glad that the gargoyles took Cagney in while Elisa was away. (Does anybody besides me get the feeling that he won't be sleeping on Hudson's head a second time?) And I found it moving that Hudson was bonding with him (while missing Bronx). That's the cat-lover in me speaking. (Cagney has a hard time accepting Maggie, though.)

I still laugh out loud every time I see Claw hiding inside his own wings.

And Brooklyn is well-handled here. Starting off with his trying to avoid his responsibilities as leader, but for a good reason - he's afraid that if he does so, it'll be like saying that Goliath will never be coming back. He shows good judgement in recognizing that it's not a good idea to let Xanatos know that Goliath and Elisa are missing - but, because of his uncertainty about taking on the role of leader, allows Talon to spill the beans. And once he does act as leader, he shows a great deal of cleverness in getting that card away from Fang and passing it to Maggie.

And I really like the moment where Brooklyn has the gargoyles all go to the Labyrinth to rescue Talon, including Hudson, and when Hudson asks him if it's an order and Brooklyn acknowledges it is, Hudson smiles approvingly.

In his ramble on this episode, incidentally, Greg speculates that Fang's two human henchmen joined the Quarrymen later on - which partly answers my question about familiar faces in that organization.
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Mon, Aug 8, 2005 7:10:09 pm EDT from 4.244.12.117

Demon@>

Actually, those are little tidbits Greg Weisman has revealed over the years, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them showed up in the comics. We'll see.
Greg Bishansky
DO NOT WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted @ Mon, Aug 8, 2005 6:45:21 pm EDT from 69.118.108.212

i got a bit lost, all thoose plans are for the comics?
Demon@
posted @ Mon, Aug 8, 2005 6:07:12 pm EDT from 168.226.117.197

At the Blue Mug A Guest, Greg did say he's leaning towards just adapting "The Journey", his version before ABC chopped it up. So, we'll see. It might be the fastest, easiest, cleanest way to do it.
Greg Bishansky - [I call bullshit]
DO NOT WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted @ Mon, Aug 8, 2005 3:41:24 pm EDT from 69.118.108.212

Why would the double date not happen right away? Goliath and Elisa acknowledge their feelings and kiss on October 26. In The Journey, Elisa got dressed up to go out with Goliath, but their "date" was interrupted by Castaway and the Quarrymen. Halloween 1996 would be the perfect opportunity for a double date.

And here's a suggestion for continuing Gargoyles without alienating a new audience. Remember that when the Goliath Chronicles started, it was moving from syndication to network television and faced the same problem.

The first issue of the comic should basically adapt the beginning of "The Journey" to print. With MacBeth and Margot debating on television, you get an overview of public perception with viewpoints from both sides. And between arguments, the major characters and open story threads are re-introduced.

An added bonus to re-doing "The Journey" is that we can all ignore The Goliath Chronicles completely, without having that asterisk. (*Ignore everything but the first episode.)
Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 8, 2005 3:35:34 pm EDT from 134.215.203.5

DPH> Well, keep in mind that Greg's idea for Goliath's trial would be much different from the travesty that was the TGC episode.

It would be more akin to say "do you bring a couger into a court room". If Greg does it, I have trust that it will be good.

Honestly, I'll be surprised if we don't see the Double Date story in the first year. Timedancer will happen, but I kinda hope Greg holds off for a bit on that one.

But overall, what ever Greg gives us, I'm ready to accept with open arms. We've waited a long time.
Greg Bishansky - [I call bullshit]
DO NOT WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted @ Mon, Aug 8, 2005 2:17:38 pm EDT from 69.118.108.212

**What we think might happen in the comics**

Given that the events of Hunter's Moon fall on October 22-26, I kinda doubt that Goliath & Elisa's Halloween double date would occur in 1996. In my opinion, that double date on Halloween would be in 1997 or later, if it still exists.

I'd have to think that Brooklyn getting whisked away wouldn't be until 4-5 stories down the road, at best.

I don't even want to think a trial for Goliath is even possible at this point. To grant Goliath a trial would imply that there is recognition that this species is indeed sentient. If Goliath got a trial, that would through the whole idea of gargoyles not being sentient out the window. So I don't think that's going to happen.

Halycon Reynard's death - Yes, he is on his path towards dying, but I would be more interested in the angle played onr his death.

**end**
dph
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Aug 8, 2005 2:07:11 pm EDT from 161.31.67.78

Twenty-five years ago, when I was no more than a hatchling, I vaguely remember watching a TV movie about the easter bunny being replaced or something along those lines.

The only thing besides the above was this one line from it or so I think it was: "Are you an aardvark, so vark aard", Am I correct in assuming this and have any of you have a copy of it on VHS/DVD.
Matt Fews
'The turkey' s just my room-mate' Chutney FOTP
posted @ Mon, Aug 8, 2005 10:41:10 am EDT from 206.47.191.83

Sorry, make that 9th
Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 8, 2005 9:06:47 am EDT from 134.215.203.5

8th!

With the idea that the Goliath Chronicles took Greg's ideas for season 3 and twisted them until they were unrecognizable, I would guess there were plans for a New Olympus episode as well, with Taurus visiting New York (perhaps the "pilot" for the New Olympians spin-off).

Adding this to Todd's list gives us at least 9 storylines. In a bi-monthly comic, these ideas alone could take years to play out, and I'm sure Greg has lots of things planned that we know nothing about. I'm already anticipating some frustration at the pace of storytelling with a two-month wait between chapters. I remember during season 2 that I could barely wait until the next day for more Gargoyles. (Of course I shouldn't complain, since two months is nothing compared to the 10 years we've been waiting.)
Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
posted @ Mon, Aug 8, 2005 9:06:16 am EDT from 134.215.203.5

8th!!
dudette
posted @ Mon, Aug 8, 2005 9:04:34 am EDT from 62.252.32.16

First off, I'd like to apologize in advance for repeating this from last week. When nobody commented on this in last week's comment room except for Demonskrye, I thought it over and finally decided that I'd posted it too early, while everyone was still getting back from the Gathering and resting up (not to mention, if you live a few time zones away from Las Vegas, recovering from jet lag). So I thought that I'd repost it this week (with a slight alteration to include new thoughts that I'd had since last Monday) in the hopes that maybe this time, with the Gathering over for a week, we'd finally be ready to have a talk about this.

Since we know that Greg's plans for the Gargoyles comic consist of doing the Season Three that he wanted to do, I thought that it would be worthwhile to briefly list the basic story-ideas that we know he had for Season Three (the ones that he's alluded to at "Ask Greg").

1. The introduction of the Quarrymen. Which was done in "The Journey", of course. A big advantage of the comic is that we can finally see what Greg's full plans were for the Quarrymen past "The Journey", just the thing that we need to counteract the take that the "Goliath Chronicles" did on them. I suspect that the "Quarrymen issue" would really have been more the "Castaway issue", incidentally, with the Quarrymen's role being more the spear-carriers and dupes who'd be assisting him, but the focus being on Castaway himself. (We know that Greg planned for Jason to discover Castaway's true identity and attempt to dissuade him from the course that he was taking.) Certainly I belive that Greg's Quarrymen would have been a lot more low-key than the hopelessly rash "Goliath Chronicles" Quarrymen (and it would make better sense for them to do things on a "low-publicity" scale; they are vigilantes, after all, so they don't want the police to be that aware of their anti-gargoyle activities. I have a strong suspicion that there'd be many people in New York who aren't that fond of gargoyles, but who would still oppose the Quarrymen on the grounds of "If you want to do something about those creatures, put away those hoods and hammers and join the Gargoyle Task Force!").

2. Alex getting kidnapped by Raven (the story that the Goliath Chronicles turned into "Ransom"). I'm still curious over Raven's purpose in this story. He'd obviously have to have left Avalon with Oberon and Titania's permission, but why would they approve another kidnapping attempt, since Titania had been satisfied with the arrangement over Puck tutoring Alex. Had she changed her mind, or is she using Raven to test Puck's ability to protect her grandson?

3. Timedancer - not the spin-off as a whole, but just Brooklyn being whisked away by the Phoenix Gate and returning with Katana, Nashville, Tachi, and Fu-Dog five minutes later. We know that Greg had planned that as an early Season Three story (probably the second or third story), but I wonder if it might not wind up being a little later in the comic than that, since he's setting up the comic so that it'll introduce the gargoyles to people who aren't familiar with them. In such a situation, he'd want to take some time to familiarize the readers with the clan as it was by the end of "Hunter's Moon", which means doing a few stories with the clan in that state before dramatically changing things by aging Brooklyn forty years and adding four new members.

4. The death of Halcyon Renard. A story that would obviously feature prominently, alongside Renard, Goliath, Fox, Vogel, and probably Titania in her Anastasia Renard form (the people who'd be most strongly affected by Renard's passing).

5. Goliath and Elisa's "double date" on Halloween.

6. The team-up between Iago/Coldsteel and Coyote 5.0. I wonder if Greg would try to work some of the "Coldstone in the Himalayas" story that he'd planned for the first comic, in a flashback form, here?

7. The Ultra-Pack (since it would involve Coyote 6.0, this story will obviously have to take place after the Coldsteel story). Since (again) the comic is being written as much for newcomers to "Gargoyles" as for established fans, I suspect that Greg will need to give us a good look at the "post-Upgrade" Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf before upgrading them again, so that the newcomers can get a proper sense of their previous state. (One thing that I can't help thinking about the Ultra-Pack, though, is that, no matter how dramatic the upgrading will be, it still will have difficulty comparing to "Upgrade". There we had the transformation of Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf from relatively normal humans into a couple of cyborgs and a wolf-man. The Ultra-Pack will be only converting the bizarre to the even more bizarre, and no matter how dramatic the "after" product will be, it can't compare to converting the normal to the bizarre.)

8. Goliath on trial (the story that mutated into "And Justice For All"). We know that Greg wanted to do that in Season Three, but the big difference between it and "And Justice For All" was that, in Greg's plan, the big issue would be just getting a trial for Goliath, since most of the humans in New York think that gargoyles are just wild animals and would view the mere notion of bringing one into a courtroom as absurd. Presumably, also, it would have a much better ending than Goliath tricking the real criminal into confessing while a tape recorder was playing, and then playing the confession in court (imagine what would have happened if he'd pushed the wrong button on the recorder and what the court heard was Goliath suggesting to the gangster that they team up as partners in crime!).

We also know that Thailog will be back, though we don't know as yet (which is probably just as well) what his schemes would involve. (I wonder if he'd be the antagonist in the double date story. We know that Delilah would have a prominent role in it, and since Thailog's linked to the Clones, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to have him show up as a result. Of course, if the double date story had been an animated episode, Thailog were to be the antagonist, and Officer Morgan - as opposed to Jason Canmore - was to be Elisa's date in the story, Keith David would really earn his pay check for that story!)
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Mon, Aug 8, 2005 7:02:44 am EDT from 4.244.12.21

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