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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending August 29, 2005

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HoE> Hell, I'd have loved to see David and Fox as gargoyles. A brief shot inside the castle would have been awesome.
Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell

I just watched "The Mirror" on ToonDisney. Something I've never thought of before, and would have made that episode a lot cooler, is if we'd seen a few of the incidental characters as gargoyles. Maybe Brendan and Margot were in it, and I just didn't recognize their gargoyle selves, but I've seen that episode quite a few times and haven't even seen any characters dressed like them. I just think it would have been amusing if, in one scene, we saw a squad car go by with Morgan and his partner, or something like that. But I suppose this was still early on, before "incidental characters" had been properly established in the Gargoyles universe.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"The problem with the future is that it keeps changing into the present."

Jonathan> It has been my experience that the number tends to fluctuate as per the location of each Gathering but we've been seeing a steady increase... If I'm not mistaken, whenever it isn't on the west coast. We get our biggest populations at the gathering on the western US I believe. JEB's fan listing explains why, as it is a census of all fans by geographic area and breaks it down. JEB's fan listing does more than that but last time I saw it was a neat way to look at the demographics of garg fans.
Jade Griffin

Ezmeralda : "Which episode stand out most in your mind when you think about Macbeth?" City of Stone.

Shara> *sweat drop* "Trick or Treat" by Kimberly Towle? (heh heh heh) :D

I have all the gargie episodes on vhs tape. I was crazy and had to record them all. :P

Oh fav characters lets see. Um elisa maza because she is strong mentaly.

Does anyone know of a good fan fiction that would be good for a hollween setting?

Shara Mordinae - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]

I'm in the same boat your in Jonathan but I know there are a few people here that can mostlikly answer that for you.

Question for others how can I get a hold of Gathering 1 & 2? (I'm talking about the episodes by the way ;) ) Thanks in advance.

Ezmeralda - [Ezmeralda@mediablvd.com]

LONG time lurker (we're talking years here, people), first time commenter. I picked up Season 1 a few weeks ago, not sure why I waited so long. Perhaps now that I know at least half of Season 2 will be released motivated me.

Anyway, favorite character definitely goes to Demona. I mean, come on, is there any real choice here? She's dangerously smart, not afraid to take risks, coldly calculating, has a good time being evil, and her villianous motivations stem not from something cliche like jealousy or greed, but from her terrible internal conflict over the Wyvern massacre.

Incidentally, I've always been curious about the Gatherings. How has attendance changed over the years? Up? Down? About the same?

Jonathan Dobres - [jdobres@gmail.com]
"You've just been poisoned. In twenty-four hours, you'll be dead...Ciao." -Demona, "Long Way to Morning"

Ezmeralda> In "The Mirror"
Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell

I need a reminder when did Demona get the spell put on her to be human durring the day?
Ezmeralda - [Ezmeralda@mediablvd.com]

Well, wasn't expecting to see Marina on any of the DVDs anyway. I think it was Season 2 Vol 1 that she was asked for, since that has the cast and crew featurettes.
Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell

Speaking of favorite characters, I saw Marina Sirtis at the Canadian Comic Book/Sci-fi/Horror/Gaming/Anime Expo in Toronto last night (Friday). I knew she was gonna be there, but I'd forgotten my copy of Gargoyles Season 1 on DVD. And there were none at any of the dealer's booths, anywhere. I swear, just about every DVD sold at the convention was anime. I think maybe a couple places had He-Man, Fat Albert, and WildC.A.Ts, but otherwise there wasn't a trace of North American animation to be found. So I left the con for a bit, found an HMV, and managed to snag their only copy of the DVD for $39.99 (big ouch after paying only $20 for it at Zellers last December). I guess I could've bought one of the Star Trek: The Next Generation photos they had of her at the table, or one of her head shots, but I'm just not that huge a Trek fan, haven't been since Next Gen...and to be honest, I think she was enabled (through the storylines and the dialogue) to show quite a bit more range as Demona than she was as Couseller Troi.

Here's a bit of info you guys might be interested (and disappointed) to know. Marina said we likely won't hear her voice or on Gargoyles commentaries or see her in any new interviews. She said she was invited to once (not sure if they asked her for Season 1 or Season 2 Part 1), but that Disney wanted her for three days for the commentaries and interviews they were possibly planning to include her in...only the pay was next to nothing apparently. For a multi-billion dollar company, she gave the impression that she thought they were kinda cheap. She didn't come off as snobby or anything, she seemed very proud of the show and thanked me for being a fan of it, very gracious woman (goddamn is that voice incredibly hot, not to mention so is she) but I guess she just didn't feel like what they were offering would've been enough compensation for her time.

And I guess you could argue that Keith David may've settled for doing his commentaries for the same amount, but...??? I dunno, maybe he just wasn't as busy at the time with movies, TV, and/or theatre work and was able to visit Greg and Frank Paur for the "Awakening" tracks? I dunno, we don't know the figures of what Disney was offering. Ah well, it was kinda cool to meet her. Nice bonus to a very fulfilling con attendance. And then I went again today with a group of people, my feet are killing me. Must go sleep now.

Kris - [plekopleko@hotmail.com]

Ah, that's right. Thank you for correcting me.
Ezmeralda - [Ezmeralda@mediablvd.com]

Ezmerelda: He doesn't really want the gargoyles gone. In "Enter Macbeth," he had nothing personal against Goliath and his clan. His motivation for kidnapping the gargoyles was to lure Demona to his house, so he could kill her and thus end his life (which, if you remember their enchantment, Demona and Macbeth cannot die or be killed, except by one another, which would kill both). But he'd not been privy to what happened in "Awakening," and thus didn't realize Demona was an outcast from the clan. I think occasionally, his desire for death blinded him to what was morally right and wrong, but, like Todd, I did find his sense of honor very appealing. One of the things I always found interesting is that when Greg was asked the question about whether or not Macbeth had ever thought of betraying Demona in "City of Stone, Part Four," I believe his exact response was "No. Absolutely not."
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Harvester of Eyes, that's me! And I see all there is to see!"

Siren > Not too bad music video. I'd like to do a music video if I could get the season 2 episodes.
Ezmeralda - [Ezmeralda@mediablvd.com]

That is something I have liked about Macbeth too. He's a villain but a fair villain… If that makes sense. Which is why he is such a great character. He wants the Gargoyles gone but on his own terms. Which episode stand out most in your mind when you think about Macbeth?
Ezmeralda - [Ezmeralda@mediablvd.com]

I don't know if I have a favorite character in the Gargoyles Universe, but I always found Macbeth intriguing. One of the gargoyles' more complex adversaries, up there with Xanatos and Demona. He operates by an eccentric code of honor, which permits him to go after the gargoyles, but dictates that he only go after them while they're awake and considers attacking stone gargoyles to be dishonorable (and which also ensures that he make Demona face Elisa in unarmed combat in "High Noon" rather than simply blast her with a laser cannon). Then there's his backstory as *the* Macbeth, a dramatically different one than Shakespeare's, with all the struggles protecting himself and his family from Duncan and his associates. And his unwanted immortality, leading him into a sense of weariness with life that's grown to a near-suicidal proportion. A very memorable figure.
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.

Demona and Xanatos.

For me it's Demona!

So many...Demona, Puck, Bronx, Broadway, Hudson, Goliath, Ophelia, Una, Talon/Derek, Coldstone, and Magus.
Click my name for my newest Gargoyles music video!

I too would have to name Demona as one of my favorites. For a character in a show that was part of the Disney Afternoon, she's extremely complex. I often wonder what it would have been like if she and Sigmund Freud had ever bumped into each other (maybe someone's written a fic about it already). I've always said that I think the main reason I have problems with personal relationships today is that my first two crushes were animated (the first being Jessica Rabbit).

Another one of my favorites is Thailog, mostly because Keith David was able to create such a distinction between him and Goliath, and really made the character downright chilling at times. And because I've always had an affinity for the cynic of the group (just about everyone else in my age group liked Michaelangelo or Donatello the most, but my favorite Ninja Turtle was Raphael), I like Brooklyn. Although Goliath also has this wonderful cynical side to him, that doesn't rear its head often, but when it does, it rules. One of my favorite Goliath moments is the one from "Eye of the Beholder," when he tells Xanatos: "Not a good night for you."

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Harvester of Eyes, that's me! And I see all there is to see!"

Ezmeralda> My favorite character is Demona.

Demona - What do I need to say? Greatest character ever in the history of all fiction. She's great. I could and have gone on and on about her in the past, so I'll spare you all my reasons this time ;)

Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell

I'm just wondering... Who is everyone favorite character or characters?

I really like Bronx, Goliath, The Weird Sisters, Puck and Oberon.

Ezmeralda - [Ezmeralda@mediablvd.com]

HARVESTER - Ah, I see. Thanks for straightening it out. (And, yes, I think that it would have been less confusing if it had been further away from the S&P reference.) And I suppose that they might go into that on the commentary briefly, though we'll just have to see.
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.

I just saw this:


In another category, outstanding voice-over performer went to Keith David,
which aired on PBS and was produced by Florentine Films in association with
WETA Washington, D.C. This has typically been awarded to an actor providing
a voice in an animated show in the past.


I remember in New York, Keith complaining that his animation acting was often ignored by the emmy's in favor of Documentary Voice over
narators. So I hope this is sweet vengeance for him.

Greg Weisman
Greg Weisman

Todd: What I meant was that Lulach's parentage was not so much an S&P issue. Rather, I'd heard that there was some question over who his father might be. I remember hearing that (in the Gargoyles universe) he was born not long after Macbeth (used the right spelling this time, which I forgot in my last post) and Gruoch were wed, which suggested the possibility that he might actually be Gillecomgain's son. I guess my wording was a little confusing, maybe could have used a space break.

And yeah, I completely forgot about the fiery death of Duncan. I remember being taken quite aback by that when I first saw the episode (I thought it was very cool, but what shocked me was the fact that I was seeing it in an after-school cartoon).

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Although only a human mind could invent something as insipid as love." -The line that made "The Matrix Revolutions" tolerable anough to sit through once.

Hey everyone! Iamwriting from an internet kioskat my motel in anahiem!!! I am having a blast!!!! Sorry, I had to say hi!!!
Battle Beast
That is all i will say

SIREN - It's certainly possible that it's a factor. I also suspect that, even among the non-superstitious, it could have reinforced prejudices of a different nature, an attitude of, "Because they dress like that, they must be savages, hopelessly primitive and not our cultural equals in the least."

Let's just hope that the gargoyles don't make the mistake that Darkwing Duck once did and become so concerned with improving their image and going to an "all sweetness and light" style that it hinders their work in thwarting criminals. :)

HARVESTER - Thanks, I'd forgotten about the "fight like a demon" line. I don't know whether Lulach's parentage was ever an issue at S&P, though; it was handled in too low-key a scale for that. In fact, anybody watching "City of Stone" who wasn't familiar with the background history would have probably taken it for granted that Lulach was Macbeth and Gruoch's son. (Incidentally, I'm writing "Lulach", because that's the way his name was recorded in the history books; the pronunciation of "Luach" in "City of Stone" was an error that Greg himself has acknowledged.)

I also forgot the bit about Duncan's fiery death, come to think of it. And the concept of the Hunters being a more malevolent version of Batman (though that becomes more readily apparent in "Hunter's Moon").

Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.

Man, everyone is pimping my projects this week...Seri took my request for Anthology feedback to an extreme in LJ, Ez here is plugging the Con Planning 101 site (which I'm still looking for additions to, especially the dealer's page since Aaron lost that old write-up of the Morgan's when his comp died) and someone just favorited one of my DevArt pics to their page. This is kind of cool, but I can help but think there must be an imbalance in the 1337 to suddenly bump me out of ghost status.
...That would also explain how both Cyrway and Aaron came to post new MiSTs to the GFA this week, and the fact that TGS is actually making progress again...hmm...


I have a questions on Gargoyle/Human relations and their clothes....well, more of a theory

In 994 A.D. Demona, Goliath, and the rest of the gargoyles, save maybe Hudon, are pretty scantilly clad. Too much clothing of course would interfer with gliding, but I wonder if this also may have been a factor besides their overall biological look as to why so many considered them demons. The devil has been said to take on forms that would seduce. And there are the sexual demons Incubus and Succubus, which in my descriptions and drawings, look gargoyle like. So I am betting this also contributed to them being thought of as unholy and unnatural demons. Any other thoughts on this?

Click my name for my newest Gargoyles music video!

Todd: "Obviously some comments about Demona's massacre and the S&P conversations over it"

As I recall, I think Greg said that S&P was also squeamish about MacBeth using the line "you fight like a demon!" (when speaking to Demona) in Part III. I'm also wondering if any comments are going to be made about the question of who Luach's father is or might be.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Harvester of Eyes, that's me! And I see all there is to see!"

The advice here is good and needed. I'm reading over an e-mail I got from Lynati about how to run a gathering. It's very informative and very well put together. And it's about what I pictured. Kind of like how you can picture the house of your dreams but the site she put together lets me see the foundation. I love it! Don't get me wrong I am in no way taking this lightly. It's a lot of responsibility and organization.

I talked to my husband to make sure he was on board with me so I'll be getting my ticket for 2006 some time by or before Jan. 2006 or after December 2005. (Finances are good to go after that for "fun" stuff) I'm also going to Anime Detour 2006 to check out how they are doing things and to see how much it would cost to advertise to the fans that come in 2007 about the Gathering. A lot of people know nothing about this place and that Gargoyles still lives on so to speak. I want to be apart of helping people realize the things that are available to them.

If Minnesota wins the 2007 bid I will take this on with a group of people.
That been said I am very excited about the 2006 Gathering and would like to help out.

Ezmeralda - [Ezmeralda@mediablvd.com]

Todd> Sounds about right. I'll be expecting some amusing lines also.

"Bronx kicks ass!"
- Greg

"Demona is pretty hot"
"Well, that's why I was with her."
- Greg and Keith

Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell

So what things do you suppose Greg, Frank, and Michael will most likely discuss (or ought to discuss) on the "City of Stone" audio commentary? Here are a few of the things that I believe will be on it - or, if they aren't, ought to be.

1. The mention of how "City of Stone" was originally intended as a direct-to-video release but became a broadcast multi-parter instead because it was more about Demona and Macbeth than about Goliath and his clan.

2. The compare-and-contrast between the Macbeth of "Gargoyles" and the Macbeth of Shakespeare. (That I'm particularly looking forward too.)

3. The Weird Sisters' different aspects (and even different ages).

4. There'll probably be some mention of Xanatos's desire for immortality during the scene where Demona's talking about stealing one minute of time from everyone who watches her broadcast (it doesn't get formally introduced in the series until "The Price", but I'm certain that this was hinted at here).

5. A little about Owen's true identity as Puck (possibly) during the scene when Demona's tying him up with iron cable and talking about how he's "the tricky one".

6. A brief introduction to Jeffrey Robbins when he shows up in "City of Stone Part Two".

7. It might be amusing to hear Greg's comments on the scene between Travis Marshall and the woman who never watches television.

8. Obviously some comments about Demona's massacre and the S&P conversations over it (including the bit about Demona shooting the woman's arms off but leaving the rest of her intact). There'll probably even be a little about the infamous nit where Demona smashes those statues that look so much like a certain pair of yuppies.

10. Maybe also a little about the nit where the secret entrance into the great hall went unnoticed by Xanatos and his crew when they were moving Castle Wyvern to New York.

11. The Xanatos-Goliath team-up (which still stands out to me for how much it defies the conventions of hero-villain truces in cartoon).

12. Foreshadowings of the Hunters in "Hunter's Moon".

13. Demona's revealing that the access code is "Alone".

Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.

Ezmeralda> I applaud you for being willing to take on such a massive job as hosting a Gathering. Having done it myself, I admire anyone else who has. But if you can't afford to come to the next Gathering, you probably can't afford to host it. You'll need some early operating capital. Granted, pre-reg is supposed to help out with that, and does. It's always a good idea to at least have your own.

Also, the staff for the next Gathering should be at the current one to pitch the con to everyone, and sell pre-registrations.

Your staff will need a Con Chair, a Vice Con chair, a Treasurer and that's just to start. You'll also need a PR person, a webmaster, someone to organize the dealers room, contests, someone to run the art room. Etc.

Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell

Ezmeralda - Keep in mind that in order to have the convention in Minnesota in 2007, you need a presence at Los Angeles 2006. Pre-registration begins on site of the current convention and is very important to keep the ball rolling for the next year. Staff for 2007 need to be there to take care of that, 2006 staff can't do it. Just FYI. ;)
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
"Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. " -- Mal, Firefly

Spen > This was what I got back when I inquired about having the Gathering in Minnesota in 2007...

"Later in the planning year The Gathering will take bids for next year's convention. Dedicated fans get together and compile a bid to host the next Gathering of the Gargoyles in whichever location they choose. The best bid (location/cost/etc) is chosen by a neutral group and handed off to the best bid.

Keep your eye open at Station 8 and the Gathering web site for information on the bidding process as that time arrives."

So, I'm going to start working on getting the best rate for the Gathering now. ;)

Ezmeralda - [Ezmeralda@mediablvd.com]

SIREN> You can find it here... http://www.eskimo.com/~vecna/garg07.htm
Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell

Yeah, I agree, Greg doesn't read that stuff. Frankly, why would he have to? He's had his Master Plans for years. It's not like he struggles to come up with storylines. He just struggles to get those storylines to us.

Anyways, now my curiosity is spiked....Where is this Confessions fan fic?

Click my name for my newest Gargoyles music video!

Ack! Misspelled Minnesota.

Ezmeralda : Well, I'd certainly be going if it were in Minnisota (I live in Iowa BTW.) Though I'm not sure if I'd be able to be of any assistence.

Something I was just pondering: I remember reading a few weeks ago that Greg wanted to tell a story in the first comic about Coldstone in the Himalayas. One of the main ideas in the Gargoyles universe is that all things are true. On the World Tour, Goliath, Elisa, and Angela encountered the prehistoric creatures that are supposed to be living in Loch Ness in Scotland. So does anyone here think that if a story were to take place in the Himalayas, Coldstone or some other character might encounter a yeti?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"I can't think of anything to say... I think it's nice."

Thank you for the welcome.

I'm not sure if I'll be able to make the 2006 gathering but I am going to try.
I need to hunt down more Minnesota fans to put things together. Nailing down the location is the easy part for me. The ThunderBird across from the Mall of America is the best place for it. It's also where the growing Anime Detor convention is held every year in March.

I found this place a few months back but hadn't gone much farther then reading Greg's responces. lol! I'm glad I've had time now to check out the Comment Room. :)

Ezmeralda - [Ezmeralda@mediablvd.com]

Ezmeralda> Welcome. Hope you enjoy yourself.

"Gathering in Minnesota"

The Gathering tends to go where the staff is. It's not one group that picks a city. Every year a dedicated group of fans get together and decide to commit their time and energy to put one of these together. It's a lot of hard work and commitment. But if you're willing to find people to work with you to put one of these together, more power to you. I worked on one back in 2003.

That being said, try and make the one in Los Angeles and 2006. It's going to be big.

Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell

Jen > The new poster rocks! Would Steph mind if I fan-girled her? ^_^


Chameleon may change her spots, but she refuses to do plaid

I just recently got to see my Gargoyles Season 1 and watched about "Gatherings" that happen every year. I saw a site having it in LA in 2006. Any way in 2007 we could have it here in Minnesota? I'd be more than happy to help put things together.
Ezmeralda - [Ezmeralda@mediablvd.com]

Todd and gregB>Hehe OK was jsut confused with Stephen asking if he picked up a copy of anthology.

Jen> Very kewl flyer. Can I get this printed out to hand out at pacific media expo next weekend when we do the publicity stunt there?

Shara - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]

Spen>> To echo Jenn, Greg knows about that story through the grapevine or indirect contact. He's very strict about maintaining his no fic, no original ideas rule; but if everybody keeps talking about something in a small group such as ours, it's bound to make it to him sooner or later.
Alex Garg - [<-- Greg's remark about "Confessions"]

Spen - Greg spends a lot of time hanging out with the fans. He hosts an adult question and answer session at all the Gathering conventions (Blue Mug-a-guest). He's been asked more than once about Demona and Brooklyn (Especially in regards to Future Tense). I'm sure he's been asked possible questions about and come to be familiar with the scenario of "Confessions".

I can guarantee he's never personally read it. ;)

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Jayne. You'll keep a civil tongue in that mouth or I will sew it shut, is there an understanding between us? - Mal, Firefly

Then how is it that Greg knew about "Confessions"?

Thanks to everyone who wished me a happy birthday.

Bishansky is right; Greg deliberately does not read fanfic so that he can't be sued by fans claiming that he'd borrowed an idea from one of them.

Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.

SHARA> No, Greg doesn't look at fanfiction or fan characters. Ever.
Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell

I thought greg would not read fan fiction? Or look at fan sites. Did something change if he is looking at the eye of oden fan fiction thingy.? me confused.

I need help like always ;-)

Shara - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]

Sobotka > "Does anyone know if Greg Wiesman picked a copy of this anthology up, or not?"

Um, you are aware of Greg's policy regarding fanfic right?

Greg Bishansky - [I call bullshit]
I am so going to the Special Hell

Battle Beast It wasn't always Talon, when I first started out here, it was Bronx, then I changed it to Griff which is my Can-Clan persona then came Fang cause I liked how he looked and finally Talon.
Matt Fews
Long live Greg the Bunny

Greetings all...

Happy Belated-Birthday to Todd! I hope you had a great one, and that the next year is better than the one before.

Also, Happy Birthday to Brian Vigue! Tell Amy to get you out of the house and enjoy a night on the town! ^_^

I wanted to come in and say Thank You to the Con Staff of the Vegas Gathering for their handling of the Eye of Odin Anthology... I just received my gratis copy yesterday, and it was a thrill to see the story I co-wrote with Spike in print. I was even more thrilled to read everyone's stories (my favorites are "Red Eye of Dusk" by Seri & Gene and "Freya's Vakyrie" by Mary "Stormy" Pletsch), and the artwork was excellent! Kudos go out to the staff, and a special thanks to Tim and Christine Morgan for their help in producing the book!

I'm looking forward to next year, and the next anthology! Does anyone know if Greg Wiesman picked a copy of this anthology up, or not?

It's back to the grind of my quest for further publication!

Maintain and Check Six!

Stephen Sobotka Jr
"NoNoNoNO! Not the wed one... Don't ever push the WED ONE!"

Todd>Apologies, that's redundant. dph covered that ground first. Somehow I missed it scrolling down the first time (too early in the AM). And sorry to dph for missing it.

Back to the early morning job search online...

Shannon "Shan" Muir - [shanemuir@aol.com]
Shannon "Shan" Muir

Todd> Re robots and an invasion. The only other reason I can think of I haven't seen mentioned for the use of invading robots would only be applicable to smaller but highly technologiccally advanced societies. In this scenario, the core society (i.e. they who are sending out the robot invaders) would have the knowledge and tech to control a society once they took over but do not have enough people either willing or able to carry out the invasion to make that possible. If you're not putting as many actual men (or women!) out and visible to the enemy, it protects the members of the society and minimizes loss due to war casualties. It also distorts the actual size of the society as there is no barometer for the enemy to try to use to guess the actual population based on how many people are in the fighting forces.

I don't know if that's helpful to what you are trying to figure out in the long run but it is an alternate scenario for the general use of invading armies in SF.

Shannon "Shan" Muir - [shanemuir@aol.com]
Shannon "Shan" Muir

Matt Fews> "Cage" & "Kingdom"> is that why you use Talon as your pic??? Just curious.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
1 day untill I'm standing in the middle of 1313 Harbor Boulevard!

Todd, I wonder what's next, maybe Little Red ridinghood or the 3 little pigs. It sounds like that the Garg universe will eventually turn into the Shrek Universe.

Anyhoo, I'm just happy that the upcoming DVD set contains 2 of my favorite episodes The Cage and Kingdom.

Matt Fews
Long live Greg the Bunny

JADE GRIFFIN - Thanks for the report, although a few odd-looking symbols appear to have crept in during the transfer.

As I mentioned last week, I posted a brief report on the upcoming DVD in a couple of Arthurian mailing lists that I subscribe to on the Internet, and thought that I'd now share what I wrote, inspired by Jade Griffin's own posting:

For those of you who are interested in animated treatments of the Arthurian legend, Walt Disney is releasing, on December 6, the DVD of the first half of the second season of "Gargoyles" (a very high-quality animated adventure series that ran on television from 1994 to 1996). Two of the episodes to be released on the DVD, "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" and "Avalon" (the latter is actually a three-parter), both contain Arthurian elements in them.

"A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" deals with the discovery of the Scrolls of Merlin, and their subsequent theft by a mysterious figure known as Macbeth (who later on in the series, turns out to be *the* Macbeth, made immortal by the three witches, in an incident that Shakespeare didn't make mention of in his play). Both Macbeth and the gargoyles who are the protagonists of the series believe that the scrolls contain Merlin's magical secrets - what they really turn out to contain, however, is something far more precious.

The three-parter "Avalon" deals with Avalon (here portrayed as a remote island accessible only by magic, the home of the faerie-folk under Oberon and Titania) being threatened by an evil wizard who plans to conquer it and turn it into his headquarters while waging war on the rest of the world and bringing it under his domination. Aware that they need all the help that they can get, the protagonists seek out King Arthur and awaken him from his enchanted sleep so that he can join forces with them in the battle.

If Disney is able to sell enough copies, it'll come out with another DVD (presumably next year) containing the latter half of the second season of "Gargoyles", which includes an episode entitled "Pendragon", in which King Arthur - now having left Avalon to explore the outside world - joins forces with the gargoyles in recovering Excalibur (and which was the back-door pilot for a never-made spin-off series, also entitled "Pendragon", in which Arthur would be searching for Merlin and battling the Illuminati Society, a mysterious world-controlling organization secretly led by Sir Percival - who had survived into modern times through being the Holy Grail's guardian).

As I said before, this DVD will come out on December 6, and cost 39.99 U.S. dollars. So, if you want to get a good look at what I consider one of the finest attempts to handle the Arthurian cycle in animation, buy a copy when it's released!

SPEN - I've wondered the same thing myself at times - though it might be a little too obvious.

Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.

I just read that the four muppet movies to be released are going to be in full screen. Boy, am I p!$$ed off!

In other news, I like the GArgoyles press release and who they talk about "strong moral values." What are those? Lie, cheat steal? If at first you don't succeed, pay, pay, pay till you get your way, way way??? :P

Battle Beast - [Canada]
1½ days untill I'm standing in the middle of 1313 Harbor Boulevard!

And for further clarity, the sentient brain in question doesn't have to be human. There are several races in the Gargs universe possessing self-awareness.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]

CKayote: I would have to say that if one were to go about creating a sapient mind in a computer in the Gargoyles universe, it would probably involve a blend of science and magic. Coldstone was created through such a mix, and even though Xanatos could build cybernetic bodies for Desdemona and Iago, their souls (and the minds that accompanied them) still couldn't be moved without utilizing magic. For clarity: are you just talking about taking a mind that already exists and putting it into a machine? Because I imagine that creating a machine with its own, unique consciousness possessing all the qualities of a sentient human brain (including free will) would probably be a tad more difficult, even with the aid of magic. I could imagine Sevarius, if he had the resources, being sick enough to attempt such a task.

Something I've noticed. Burbank seems to be the only clone without a picture (unless I just completely missed it on the list). I tell ya, he don't get no respect. No respect at all.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"I do not know of dust to dust, I live from breath to breath. I live to climb that mountain to the Fountain of Lamneth."

Hope ya'll don't mind but I don't know where my friend got the link, so here's the news, copied and pasted, about gargs Season 2, Vol. 1 (iffen ya hadn't read this yet...)

BURBANK, Calif, August 12, 2005 – Get ready for more "Gargoyles"- the fantastic, heroic animated
series - with GARGOYLES SEASON 2 (Volume 1), available on DVD for the first time on
December 6 from Buena Vista Home Entertainment. This DVD set features 26 exciting second season
episodes of the popular show.

"Gargoyles" is the story of the fantastic, ancient creatures that once guarded a medieval Scottish
fortress, and who now come to life at night to protect the city of Manhattan from evil. Legions of loyal
fans continue to follow "Gargoyles," and the series features star voice talents including "Star Trek:
The Next Generation" stars Michael Dorn, Jonathan Frakes, Marina Sirtis and Brent Spiner, and "Star
Trek Voyager" star Kate Mulgrew. Available only on DVD December 6 for $39.99 from Buena Vista
Home Entertainment.

Fans will enjoy the special DVD bonus materials:
• Episode introductions with series creator Greg Wiseman
• The Gathering of Cast and Crew Featurette
• Audi commentary on the "City of Stone" episodes (parts 1-4).

GARGOYLES is the animated story of a group of fantastic superbeings who protect mankind from
danger. Their story begins in medieval times, when Gargoyles were stone statues by day, but were
transformed at sundown into fearsome, living creatures. GARGOYLES are a clan of winged beings,
honorable creatures who, in a violent and brutal age, protected a Scottish castle from Viking assaults,
until they were betrayed by a sorcerer's spell. They were frozen in stone through night and day, and
passed through the centuries.

When a wealthy businessman purchases the Gargoyles' ancient Scottish castle and rebuilds it high
above the clouds atop his corporate headquarters in present day New York City, the spell is broken.
The Gargoyles sleep in stone by day, but at sundown awaken to become majestic heroes of the night,
defending the city from modern day menaces. The series carries positive moral messages about
friendship, teamwork and doing good.

STREET DATE: December 6, 2005
Direct Prebook: October 11
Distributor prebook: October 25
Suggested retail price: $39.99
DVD Aspect ratio: 1.33:1 (full-frame) formatted 4x3
Total run time: Approximately 615 minutes
Rating: TV-Y7 FV. Bonus materials not rated.
Sound: Stereo Sound

Jade Griffin

Todd : Great creativity daemon!

Anyway, this silly little thought just crossed through my mind; is Mr. Duval's first name Percy?



Perhaps Humpty Dumpty was a gargoyle who turned to stone, fell off the wall and they couldn't put him back together again ;)

Click my name for my newest Gargoyles music video!

DPH - Well, I'd seen the civilization that created those robots being an extraterrestrial one rather than an earthly one. And I'll confess that I'm not enough of a sci-fi buff to seriously think over why you'd use robots for an invasion. I was simply looking for a way to make the "robot invaders" work for me.

While I'm at it, here's another crazy creativity demon. A magical accident befalls a gargoyle egg in such a way as to fuse the gargoyle inside with the eggshell, producing a gargoyle egg with the face, arms, and legs of the gargoyle. The accident is irreversible, so the clan raises this cursed gargoyle alongside its rookery siblings, making provisions against its altered physical condition. In spite of their precautions, however, one night, shortly before morning, the enchanted gargoyle takes its position on the battlements of the castle that the clan protects, but gets too wobbly (literally) and plummets off its perch. The sun rises just then, so the rest of the clan can only watch in horror as stone sleep overtakes them, knowing that there is nothing that they can do to intervene.

That evening, when they awaken, the human ruler of the castle breaks the bad news to the gargoyles; the cursed gargoyle was killed in the fall, just as they had feared. But he not only assists in gathering up the remains for the Wind Ceremony, but requests his minstrels to compose an elegy for him. Unfortunately, the minstrels are (like so many other humans) prejudiced against gargoyles, and decide to give the lament a less-than-solemn tone. Their composition spreads quickly from one human settlement to the next, and becomes - well, I think that you can all guess what the poem was, and are probably even groaning over it.

Yes, a really bizarre creativity demon - though, when Greg Weisman said that with enough time *everything* would get into the Gargoyles Universe, that probably includes nursery rhymes.

Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.

Sorry Todd, I had to wipe out the robots. ;) (see link)

Seriously though, thats a render I made last night for a friend.

Vertigo1 - [md2389@gmail.com]
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage (Mythbusters)

Todd - The problem I see with that argument is a simple: the only real reason, imo, to send a robot invasion force is to avoid letting your enemy who is really invading. Either that, or using a robotic invasion force is a way of the government hiding that their engaged in an illegal invasion and they don't want the general population to find out.
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Todd> I see there as being 3 ranks of AI. The current, crappy kind we have today is one. The Gargoyles example might be the Steel Clan robots. No. 2 is the kind you mentioned, basicly independant, but bound by the letter if their programming. Like the Coyote robots. The Third kind is a *true* AI which are sapient to the level of being copies of their creators. They would require an unthinkable amount of technology perfect, and I don't think anyone in the Gargoyles universe save perhaps Nokkar's people could have the capacity to create such entities.
These Ais invading Earth wouldn't be hard to invision because they would have the same psychological motivations as their creators. Basicly organic life in metal bodies.

On that note, these Type 3 AIs would vary much resemble the Coldtrio (Created through science not magic, of course, but still). So I'd like to ask, how does everyone feel about the concept of "uploading" a sapient mind into a computer program in the Gargoyles univserse. Possible? Not? Requires Magic? (I lean towards the third option).

By the way, happy birthday Todd.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
If a sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic, is sufficiently advanced magic indistinguishable from science?

Todd Jensen> That's an interesting story concept, Todd. Kind of "Terminator"-esque in a way.
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]

IRC Goliath - [goliath1 [at] pacbell [dot] net]


As I mentioned last week, while I have a serious "suspension of disbelief" problem with villainous robots, I do have one idea on how to do a story about robots invading the Earth that doesn't give me that problem, and now that the room's cleared, I thought that I'd mention it:

The concept would be that the robots were the product of an alien civilization that wants to conquer, but doesn't want to risk its own people to do it and sends robots because they're expendable. The robots have been carefully programmed to be tough, ingenious, and persevering invaders, sticking at it when confronted by opposition, with specific instructions to not give up on conquering a planet unless presented with "Cease and desist" orders from the civilization that created them.

Some time after sending out this robot invasion force, the civilization that built it is destroyed by a cataclysm - destroyed, as in, the only thing left over from it is the robots. The protagonists, after their home planet is invaded by the robots, learn of this, and have the idea of using it to stop the war, so they tell the robots about the destruction of their masters/builders, presenting them with positive proof. However, the robots point out that their programming contains no information about "If the civilization that produced you is destroyed, call off all further attacks on other planets". Even though, with their creators gone, their war of conquest has now become pointless, they are still bound by their programming to continue the war (the sort of logic that I see an artificial intelligence possessing). And so the war goes on....

Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.

8th! Happy Birthday Todd for last week ;p How old? Only joking!

If all the world's a stage, I'm throwing away my script!

Sexy six!!!
Shara Mordinae - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]

Whatever happenned to simplicity?

4th??? Really?
Battle Beast - [Canada]
2½ days untill I'm standing in the middle of 1313 Harbor Boulevard!


Number one with a bullet!
"Life IS pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something." - Westley, "The Princess Bride"

The Sadistic Cow
My friends say I should act my age. What's my age again?