Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

GregB>> I think HoE means that Demona would discard any evidence that humans and gargoyles can coexist as nearly unreproducible exceptions, like the occasional outlier you might find and discard in a scientific investigation.

Todd>> I don't see how repeating the Litany Against Fear is any worse than having a character exclaim "What are ya goin' to do, bite my kneecaps off!?"

I see some deeper ethical problems than copyright violation with using Frank Herbert as a character without his permission, though. (I guess Greg's done it to Macbeth, but that gentleman's been relegated to the mists of history anyway.) And since Mr. Herbert's dead....
JJ Gregarius
Like the man said, "There are no problems; only solutions!"
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 11:06:19 pm EDT from 64.192.72.254

Yep, Greg covers Demona's line about Elisa being an "Exception" right here...

Check out Question and answer 16

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=470
Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 8:32:24 pm EDT from 69.118.108.212

HoE> WHen did Demona call Elisa an exception? She hates Elisa... she completely and utterly hates her guts, and she doesn't think Elisa is an exception to any rule at all.

Are you referring to "Temptation"? If so, Demona only said that to get Brooklyn to trust her... listen to the way the tone of her voice there.
Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 8:24:27 pm EDT from 69.118.108.212

Todd: I don't know. I have the feeling that if Demona had met the Ishimuran clan, she'd put them in the same camp as Elisa. That is, nothing more than an exception.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 8:21:39 pm EDT from 69.174.1.148

Since "Dune" is still copyright, I doubt that they could do too much with it in "Gargoyles" beyond the most casual of references (evidently the lawyers for Herbert's estate must not have gotten wind of the quote on "Earthworm Jim") - the literary references were all from authors who'd lived long enough ago that their works are now in public domain (such as Shakespeare).

I find it unlikely that Demona ever came across any of the other clans, simply because, knowing her, if she had, she'd have tried to recruit them for her war on humanity, and if they'd refused (as they must have done, since none of them were working for her) flown into a rage and slaughtered them - if how she responded to her old clan after its awakening is any evidence. (Of course, her attempts at slaughtering Goliath, Hudson, the trio, and Bronx might have been based on the specific fact that they were once part of her clan - and Goliath her mate - which means that she'd take their refusal a lot more personally than if they were from a clan that she'd just met.)

And I think that even Demona's conviction that humans and gargoyles would never be able to live in peace would have a hard time surviving her discovery of Ishimura.

(Pity that we brought up this topic so close to the room being cleared, since it's an interesting one.)
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 6:44:48 pm EDT from 4.244.12.49

"Characters on this show make bold statements when they don't know what they're talking about."

It's a lot like politics.

86 days left until Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 1 comes to DVD.
Patrick
"No flag, no country. Those are the rules that I just made up!" - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 2:04:51 pm EDT from 68.170.199.45

No, Greg said he found it hard to believe Demona didn't know about London. He's on the fence about Ishimura.

But don't take Demona's "I know every remaining gargoyle" line seriously. Characters on this show make bold statements when they don't know what they're talking about
Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 1:07:55 pm EDT from 69.118.108.212

I recall Greg saying that he found it hard to belive that Demona DIDN'T know about the Ishimura clan. She could have only known about them if she visited them...

Do any of you think that Demona visited them at any time? How wouls he have gotten there? It would have been immpossible for her to glide to Japan, and I don't think she could have hid in a plane or something like that... what do you think???
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 12:23:18 pm EDT from 198.53.28.99

King Cobra: What I meant was that it was interesting to hear the Litany in a cartoon like Earthworm Jim because a majority of that cartoon's target audience had probably never even heard of Frank Herbert, let alone the saga of books he's famous for. I had heard of Dune (a very subtle reference in an episode of Animaniacs), but knew almost nothing about it. It wasn't until I read Dune after my senior year of high school that I recognized the Litany and how Peter Puppy would always recite. And I think there was actually an episode where Jim finally asks "Do you always have to say that?"

JJ: I could see Brooklyn using some dialogue from Dune, but probably in a sarcastic manner, much in the same way that he told Lex to use the Force in "Her Brother's Keeper." Brooklyn making some reference to Dune would not be a tremendous stretch for his character, and also, in a show like Gargoyles, would not feel out of place. But I think most of the literary references (as far as several of the supporting characters are concerned) in Gargoyles stem from much older literature, such as Shakespeare and the myths of King Arthur.

But if you really think about it, one of Brooklyn's Timedancer adventures could have involved Brooklyn meeting a young Frank Herbert, and having Brooklyn's unique situation inspire Herbert to write the Dune Chronicles. As an added bonus, Brooklyn for some reason needs to use an alias for this encounter, and the alias he chooses is Paul Atreides, which means that Brooklyn unintentionally serves as the inspiration for Muad'dib.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Hear the echoes of the centuries, power isn't all that money buys."
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 11:12:04 am EDT from 69.174.1.148

Harvester>> I've read through Children of Dune. In a few weeks, I think I will take up God-Emperor of Dune. Do read Children of Dune. It's enlightening.

What is it (Bene Gesserit mantra)?>>
The Litany Against Fear :

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

This litany is a tool that members of the Bene Gesserit use to confront their fear, and do what they must. There's nothing wrong with presenting it to children, but it is unusual (but fun!) to find it in a kiddie cartoon, as you wouldn't expect a child to have read Dune. Dune can be a challenging read.

Now, considering what I've said about TimeDancer this weekend, wouldn't it be cool if Brooklyn recited the Litany* or used the pseudonym Paul Atreides at one point? After all, he did seem to be developing an interest in science-fiction: remember the Star Wars and Star Trek references and his similar taste in movies to Lex? Heck, Gargoyles has already made references to material its kiddie target audience probably wouldn't have been exposed to, so references to Dune couldn't hurt.

Greg Weisman probably has never read Dune, though. :-( He has read Heinlein's stories though... I want some way for Brooklyn to become aware of the dangers of pre-knowledge, and ways to "bend" the rule against changing the future: for instance, what if your pre-knowledge is incomplete? Could that provide *some* freedom for you? If I read it correctly, the book Children of Dune starts to get into that line of reasoning, BTW.

*I will admit, I have actually used the Litany in real-life.
JJ Gregarius
Like the man said, "There are no problems; only solutions!"
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 2:04:06 am EDT from 64.192.72.254

The original ending didn't work because the symbolism was all wrong.

Original ending: Goliath and Demona freezing in an embrace in front of a stopped clock.

Correct ending: Goliath and Demona embracing... but it fading into nothing.

For an episode about Goliath giving up in reuniting with Demona and that whole ship just sailing, the original ending doesn't work at all.
Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 2:01:36 am EDT from 69.118.108.212

I know the original ending has the wrong background, but I've always liked it better than the corrected one. I can't pinpoint why... it just seems more aesthetically pleasing? The silhouette against the circular window, and the light shining... I don't know, it just works better for me than the shrinking window in the sky. Also, the original ending seems to last slightly longer than the corrected one; the latter always feels a little rushed to me.

So here's hoping we get both versions on the DVD, even though I know that's about as likely as snow in July...
Kaylle - [kaylle at ladyavalon.com]
This be the Pirate Channel! All sales all the time!
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 1:41:23 am EDT from 18.244.0.88

"Peter would always start reciting the Bene Gesserit fear mantra"

Um, what exactly is it and why would it not good for a kid's cartoon?
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 12:31:25 am EDT from 4.224.231.91

Greg>> *frowns* Really?

Huh. I'd always figured we only got ONE ending on TV and the other one was just never shown.

Maybe we will get it on DVD. At this point, I'm really hoping so.
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 12:29:18 am EDT from 4.224.231.91

King Cobra> What do you mean the one we got on TV? We got both endings on TV.

I am pretty sure it will be the second ending... the correct one.
Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 12:25:46 am EDT from 69.118.108.212

"I just had a thought: I wonder what ending to "Vows" is going to wind up on the DVD."

Most likely? The ending we get on TV.
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Sep 11, 2005 12:02:20 am EDT from 4.224.231.91

I just had a thought: I wonder what ending to "Vows" is going to wind up on the DVD.

JJ: I actually haven't read beyond "Dune Messiah" and that was several years ago. I do remember liking the SciFi miniseries for "Dune" more than David Lynch's movie. Both had strengths and weaknesses, but I think the miniseries had more strengths and less weaknesses. I always thought one of Lynch's worst casting decisions was Patrick Stewart as Gurney Halleck, simply because of the role that Gurney played in the Atriedes House, a man who was the Duke's loyal servant for life out of gratitude for what Leto had done for him. Stewart always struck me as someone more ideally suited to playing people of authority. Overall, I'd say the cast of the miniseries was better than the cast of Lynch's movie.

I don't know if you remember the cartoon they made for Earthworm Jim about ten years ago, but I remember that whenever Jim and his sidekick, Peter Puppy, seemed to be facing death, Peter would always start reciting the Bene Gesserit fear mantra. I always wondered what the hell that was doing in a kid's cartoon.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"I have a rocker switch with up-down, left-right movement."
posted @ Sat, Sep 10, 2005 10:34:20 pm EDT from 69.174.1.148

MATT - I doubt it, due to their having different angles on gargoyle-human relations. Demona believes that humans can't possibly be willing to live in peace with gargoyles, and that the only solution for humans is the "final solution". Yama believes that peace between humans and gargoyles *is* possible (not surprising, since he lives in Ishimura), but is too impatient to bring it about, to the point where he agreed to help out Taro's scheme (unaware of Taro's real purpose for his gargoyle theme park). Their differing stances on that issue would be just as certain a recipe for incompatibility as Goliath and Demona's differing stances were.
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Sat, Sep 10, 2005 9:51:08 pm EDT from 4.245.17.225

Demona and Yama: i wonder if he wasn't with Sora and they met if a romance would bud... just a creativity demon...
matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sat, Sep 10, 2005 8:25:18 pm EDT from 150.201.66.47

Greg's said that he intends to keep the rating the same as the series. He wants it to be accessable to all ages. But I certainly don't think he would be above implying darker (or more mature) things.
Demona and Yama: That would be very interesting. Particularly because there's about infinite ways you can take that.
Dune + Timedancer: I think it's the same way. Knowing the future locks it into the place. People from the future can't change their past, but those of us in the present can change the future (provided we don't "know" it already). Brooklyn may engage in a mad quest to save his friends and family from their fates. Or desperately struggle to change the parts of the future he doesn't already know.
Main Characters: I don't think any of them will become main characters outside of their own series. They're more of plot-driving supporting cast. But I think it's a strength of the series that we can argue who might actually be the main character. Or who will usurp the title.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
If all things are true, then someone is actually taking all my left socks!
posted @ Sat, Sep 10, 2005 11:27:56 am EDT from 64.192.79.39

well, i suppose Duval and the Illuminati are something we'll be seeing a lot more in the comic then we did in the series. in fact perhaps the fact that its a comic will allow it to be a bit darker then the series for S&P reasons... does anyone know what kinda tone the comic will have? is it going to be written for younger kids or what? what is their target range? anyone know?
matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sat, Sep 10, 2005 10:00:27 am EDT from 66.189.238.57

Greg B.>> I can see where you're going with Demona. Similar reasoning lead me to possibly consider Brooklyn as a main character of the overall saga. I just wonder if Demona is more of a pawn than a key player, once you take a broad enough view. I cannot consider Brooklyn a major character without reservations, because Brooklyn's basically a pawn of a higher power. On the other hand, Oberon and Titania can change the course of world events, in spite of Oberon's dictate that none of his kind can directly influence human affairs, and I have a feeling that they and the Wyrd Sisters are involved in the whole Illuminati/Athurian mess.

On the other other hand, it would be interesting to see more stories with Demona, especially stories linking Demona to the other remaining clans. She could be influential there, as she almost was with Brooklyn.

* * *
Another character I did not mention is Alexander. If he wasn't out of commission for 2198, he'd be a shoe-in to be called a major character.
JJ Gregarius
Like the man said, "There are no problems; only solutions!"
posted @ Fri, Sep 9, 2005 10:55:45 pm EDT from 64.192.72.254

BISHANSKY - Another character on the Redemption Squad with ties (if more subtle than Robyn's) to Demona is Yama. Yama's role in "Bushido" strikes me as a foil to Demona, in that he, for what he believes to be the good of his clan, works out a scheme with a human to move the clan in the direction that he believes it ought to go, only to find both himself and the clan betrayed by that same human. At the same time, there are two major differences:

1. In contrast to Demona's conviction that humans will never live in peace with gargoyles, Yama believes that it can be done, but he gets impatient and decides to "force the issue" via Taro's amusement park (though he believes that its first visitors will be a group of children come to learn bushido from the gargoyles, instead of the media).

2. When Demona realized that her plan was going sour, she ran away and left her clan in the lurch (with profound consequences for her). Yama, on the other hand, when he discovers Taro's true objective, faces him in single combat and defeats him, instead of running away.

For this reason, a Demona-Yama encounter should be very interesting.
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Fri, Sep 9, 2005 9:32:07 pm EDT from 4.245.19.118

I'd say Demona is more of a main character than Oberon or Titania. I like Oberon and Titania, but Demona seems to be a more important character in the overall "Gargoyles" universe.

She's immortal for one, and would continue to be a main character in Gargoyles as well as Dark Ages and 2198. She would probably have been in Timedancer at least once (in fact, we know she would have).

And I'm sure she'd have appeared in Bad Guys... a Hunter is leading that team.
Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell
posted @ Fri, Sep 9, 2005 9:21:37 pm EDT from 69.118.108.212

Duval and the Illuminati>> Interesting, but should assume that Duval has fallen or is only now taking "short-cuts"? It could be that the unsavory means that the Illuminati employ form the only way Duval can see to "set things right." For any Dune fans out there, you might say that these activities are Duval's Golden Path. Come to think of it, Duval is like the character in Dune who sets out on the aforementioned "Golden Path" in that both live for millennia in order to see their designs through.

On related tangent, as I was reading the prescience in the Dune Chronicles, I couldn't help thinking of the Time Dancer. See, one of the major themes of the Dune Chronicles is the danger of prescience, the ability to foretell the future. One of the main characters, Paul-Muad'Dib, gains this power and faces a dire dilemma: he can use this knowledge of the future to shape his world, but such use can lock the universe into a specific pattern, one which may quite nasty regardless of any good intentions.

Now, Brooklyn won't face as cruel a problem as Paul-Muad'Dib's (read the books!), but Paul's problems did raise some thoughts for me. The TimeDancer isn't truly prescient per se, but via his time travel provides a knowledge much akin to prescience. As the TimeDancer, Brooklyn will have to decide whether he wants to know about the future of his clan, or whether such knowledge will imprison him. Also, he will have to decide whether to reveal the fates of his friends and acquaintances. Just imagine if the TimeDancer Brooklyn had to confront a young Demona (shortly after "Vows").

On another tangent, I'm starting to think that Duval, Oberon, Titania, and maybe even Brooklyn are developing into the main characters of the entire Gargoyles saga, and we haven't even seen Duval yet! (I might promote Brooklyn in my mind to full-fledged main character status just to have a main character that is a gargoyle.) Goliath and Samson may not be able to contend with the characters I have just mentioned, given the limited time span each has to work with.

When you first started watching the series, did you every think somebody could say that Goliath may become a *supporting* character with a straight face?
JJ Gregarius
Like the man said, "There are no problems; only solutions!"
posted @ Fri, Sep 9, 2005 9:11:19 pm EDT from 64.192.72.254

23rd... just cuz
IRC Goliath - [goliath1 [at] pacbell [dot] net]
There is life outside your apartment, but now it's time to go home.
posted @ Fri, Sep 9, 2005 6:51:21 pm EDT from 209.234.142.80

I HAD to post this:

veronica writes...
what's with goliath/elisa?
aren't you going to hook them up?

Greg responds...
SPOILERS:

Eventually.

LOL

That was too funny.

Also, Greg mentioned that he saw "Hamlet: Formerly known as Prince of Denmark."

I saw Merchant of Venice where the prince of the town was played by a man who looked and acted like Prince. It was great.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Fri, Sep 9, 2005 6:42:27 pm EDT from 198.53.28.99

We've never been told where Duval lives (except for Carbonek, which has no fixed location) and there certainly hasn't been anything said about him yet that specifically requires him to be in England.
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Fri, Sep 9, 2005 6:32:03 pm EDT from 4.244.18.163

I agree with Duval having bad means but good ends. It makes him a villan far different from what we've seen so far. However there's the weakness that the clan can't confront him directly without flying to England.
As for the Gargoyles, I think he may want to help them (a "noble race of warriors") and is trying to force them into accepting his aid.
The society itself I imagine as a fuedal hierarchy (a pyramid- fitting with conspiracy lore). Some of the society's excesses might be the doing of underlings' underlings', outside of Duval's direct supervision. Or the attempts of ambitious lieutenants trying curry favor with quick results.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
If all things are true, then someone is actually taking all my left socks!
posted @ Fri, Sep 9, 2005 10:33:59 am EDT from 64.192.79.39

Greg said at "Ask Greg" that Duval's purpose in founding the Illuminati and running it was to "make things right". That's about it, but I'd assume that it would still be his goal, even if by now some of the Society's actions (becoming organized crime's silent partner, the Hotel Cabal, the Quarrymen) seem an odd way of going about it.

That could easily make him one of the most intriguing antagonists in the series - possibly even more interesting to explore than Xanatos or Demona. Up until now, almost all of the gargoyles' adversaries were mainly out for their own personal benefit (Demona does have the larger goal of making the world safe for her race, but it's blended in strongly with her desire for revenge and to avoid her guilt). Here we would have an opponent whose goal was to benefit the world, but who has at some point started taking an attitude of "the ends justify the means", and has taken such shortcuts as the Hotel Cabal, the deals with organized crime, going after the gargoyles, admitting people like Mace Malone and Xanatos into the Society's membership, etc. Dealing with a man who's trying to save the world and views your attempts to thwart him as endangering the entire planet (which means that he'll have to go all-out to keep you from stopping him and thereby dooming the human race) would be even more dramatic than merely battling a guy who wants to be immortal due to his fear of old age and death or a group of people who want to hunt you because they're bored and see you as the challenge that they're looking for or a guy who shot his brother, can't admit it to be his fault, and so goes after you to avoid facing the consequences of his own actions.

It would be interesting to see how Duval justifies a lot of the Society's actions. Maybe he sees the blackmailing of organized crime (via Mace Malone) as a means of restraining the syndicates from doing even more damage (and only asks for a share of the goods for the same reason that Macbeth accepted pay from Xanatos in "Enter Macbeth" - they'd be suspicious if he didn't demand money from them). Maybe the guests for the Hotel Cabal were originally meant to be corrupt people in high places (or the aides to such corrupt people), who were "checked in" for the purpose of finding out about their illicit goings-on so that the Illuminati could stop them. Maybe Duval sees the gargoyles as a genuine threat to humanity (if not intentionally, like Demona, then maybe through cases of their making serious blunders - like Goliath being duped by Xanatos into stealing from Cyberbiotics) and believes that he has to have them contained to keep them from somehow disrupting human society. (With the irony that helping Castaway set up the Quarrymen could be even more disruptive than anything that Goliath and his clan could ever do on their own.)
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Fri, Sep 9, 2005 7:40:45 am EDT from 4.244.12.249

Of course, that's all speculation. Maybe somewhere in the comics, Greg might shed more light on the Illuminati or their leader.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
posted @ Fri, Sep 9, 2005 1:04:16 am EDT from 69.174.1.148

I don't know what Greg had planned for Duval, but he did found the Illuminati. And while we don't exactly know what sparks the society's interest in gargoyles, they did leave Mace Malone to his fate at the end of "Revelations" (it never occured to me that he died in that episode until I read Greg's outline of the ages of characters in the Gargoyles universe, and saw that Mace was listed as "Dead at 100"). But another key ingredient in the Gargoyles universe, in addition to all things being true, is that everyone is defined by shades of gray. So I hesitate to say that Duval would be a dyed-in-the-wool bad guy. He was one of Arthur's knights once, and like some of the other characters, probably still has some good in him somewhere.

Oh, and who here still needs to post an amazon.com review? We need about 94 or 95 more.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"I'm just watching a bad dream I never wake up from." -Spike Spiegel.
posted @ Fri, Sep 9, 2005 1:02:14 am EDT from 69.174.1.148

Duval holding to Knightly virtues?

We've never met Duval. We have no idea what he's like.
Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell
posted @ Thu, Sep 8, 2005 8:59:18 pm EDT from 69.118.108.212

Sorry to double post, but but what I was trying to suggest is that I don't see Duval engaging in political assassaination. I feel he still tries to hold to his Knightly Virutes.
Something subtler like ruining him before the 1964 election.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
If all things are true, then someone is actually taking all my left socks!
posted @ Thu, Sep 8, 2005 8:17:25 pm EDT from 64.192.79.39

Considering all things being true, would it really be possible that "Camelot" would have come to be used without Duval's tacit approval?
As for his death, perhaps it went the other way. The shooter on the grassy knoll part of a 1960's "Bad Guys" group, lead by an earlier anti-Illuminati "Director" figure.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
If all things are true, then someone is actually taking all my left socks!
posted @ Thu, Sep 8, 2005 8:09:30 pm EDT from 64.192.79.39

What would really make it amusing if the Illuminati in the Gargoyles Universe had anything to do with the Kennedy assassination is that the name "Camelot" is associated so much with Kennedy, and Duval, the head of the Illuminati, used to be one of King Arthur's knights. I wonder if there could be a connection (though I doubt that Duval would be petty enough to order Kennedy's death for being a "King Arthur-imitator" - it would have to be something far more serious than that, such as Kennedy's policies running contrary to the Illuminati's goals and all other efforts to restrain him have failed.)
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Thu, Sep 8, 2005 6:09:16 pm EDT from 4.244.12.235

Yeah, but I find that about as likely as the Gargoyles hooking up with the X-Men for an episode. ;)
Vertigo1
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage (Mythbusters)
posted @ Thu, Sep 8, 2005 12:58:30 pm EDT from 198.146.137.190

Todd> That is funny. But it would better as the ending of a Puck-centric episode. Particularly if he's been narrating the whole time.

JFK & Elvis: Prehaps they're both still alive like the tabloids say, hiding out in a stateroom in Castle Cabonet until the Society needs use of their skils.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
If all things are true, then someone is actually taking all my left socks!
posted @ Thu, Sep 8, 2005 10:55:11 am EDT from 64.192.79.39

KRIS - Yes, I'll admit that it wouldn't have worked so well in the series after giving it a little more thought - unless it was the "Goliath Chronicles", since Puck's behavior there could provide an extra argument for those who disliked the "Goliath Chronicles" (which would be the majority of the fandom) that they shouldn't be considered canonical, plus they'd consider "this weak and idle theme" as a good description of the new season.
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Thu, Sep 8, 2005 7:02:42 am EDT from 4.244.12.194

Todd, I think I would throw something at the screen if that happened. I appreciate the Shakespearean influences and characters taken directly from his works, but I don't want Gargoyles to follow the format of one of his plays. Also, I'm not keen on dramatic shows breaking the fourth wall like that. Lotsa comedies can pull it off for a laugh and then go back to their regular narrative no problem, but I think it'd be very wrong for Gargoyles. No addressing the viewing audience, at least not in an obvious fashion like that. It would be very cheesy.
Kris - [plekopleko@hotmail.com]
posted @ Wed, Sep 7, 2005 11:40:55 pm EDT from 69.17.169.178

Lord GargFan>hehe I would do that but the teenagers that work at our disney store would beat me with a random disney plushie.
Shara - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Sep 7, 2005 9:16:03 pm EDT from 209.179.250.208

An odd little thought. I was rereading a number of the documents in the "Original Development File" section of the archives at "Ask Greg" as research for the "tidbits" section of my "Gargoyles" reviews (such as Elisa's rejected surnames), and in looking over the ones dating back to when "Gargoyles" was originally intended to be a comedy, an odd thought occurred to me.

Many of you may remember the "Gargoyles" parody that appeared on "Freakazoid" about ten years ago, "Lawn Gnomes", about a clan of prankster gnomes who were finally punished for their mischief by being cursed to turn to stone all day long until they mended their ways and would help humans rather than playing tricks on them (and a thousand years later, they're *still* turning to stone in the daytime, indicating how much of an effort they'd made towards that goal). It suddenly struck me that this has a certain similarity to the way that the gargoyles were imagined in the comedy development, as mischievous pests who wound up so exasperating the villagers whom they were living with through all of their practical jokes that the villagers had them turned to stone. The "Freakazoid" parody was much closer to the roots of what it was parodying than its makers probably realized....

Also, an odd little creativity demon, over one possible "ideal way" in which the series could end. In the final scene, Goliath, the rest of the clan, Elisa, and whoever else is present, having completed whatever they were doing for that scene, suddenly "freeze", and then Puck appears (or Owen transforms into him, if Owen is present in the last scene), turns towards the screen to address the audience, and makes the closing speech from "A Midsummer Night's Dream", the one beginning "If we shadows have offended,/ Think but this, and all is mended...", and then flies off with a gleeful smile as the scene fades to black.
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Wed, Sep 7, 2005 7:02:20 pm EDT from 4.244.12.119

Just had to make a comment this week:

Siren>Great script! Is this voice actor a Keith David soundalike?

Spen>Whaddaya mean in the "Gargoyles" universe? He's alive! And I saw him filling up his truck at the local 7-11 yesterday! Hear all about it in next week's Weekly World News!

Harvester of Eyes> That JFK thing is interesting. I'd say Demona did it... Maybe not, but I don't think it would've been on the Grassy Knoll. I think it's the Umbrella Man! (Do some research)

And welcome back, Matt!

And I'd say forget Hastings, let's make the Disney Store insane with our "Do you have Disney's Gargoyles-Season Two-Volume One?" questions!

And when that fails, there's always Wal-Mart!
Lord GargFan
Humans fear what they do not understand, and some humans just don't understand anything.
posted @ Wed, Sep 7, 2005 6:36:27 pm EDT from 67.185.229.228

wow, great news about the DVD and the comic! how awesome is that?! i should dissapear more often perhaps, lol.

are we planning another mass buy date for the DVD?

thanks for catching me up!
matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
posted @ Tue, Sep 6, 2005 10:10:19 pm EDT from 150.201.66.47

Forgive the double post, but I just thought of something. The society helped Elvis fake his death because they needed his connections to the world of drug trafficking. Much in the same way they needed Mace Malone to connect them to organized crime.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
posted @ Tue, Sep 6, 2005 9:56:20 pm EDT from 69.174.1.148

Spen: Wow. The last few weeks have been a kickass time for silly thoughts. If all things are true, I would say yes, he is alive. Maybe the Illuminati helped him fake his death for some reason.

But while we're on the subject of silly thoughts, the people in the real universe are divided over the Kennedy assassination. I wonder who the real shooter was in the Gargoyles universe. I suppose that since people like Macbeth and King Arthur are real, the shooter would have been the supposed man on the grassy knoll.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"When the sun beats down and I lie on the bench, I can always hear them talk. Me? I'm just a lawnmower. You can tell me by the way I walk."
posted @ Tue, Sep 6, 2005 9:51:54 pm EDT from 69.174.1.148

ah! thank god! season two will be out by the end of the year. the Hastings in town had better have it this time....or they will hate me afterward *evil grin* ;)
Elisa - [Elisacop@hotmail.com]
blue hair.....it's a good thing.
posted @ Tue, Sep 6, 2005 9:46:03 pm EDT from 24.32.180.37

Matt : Usually, a quote of some sort is put in the signature box, like the one below.

Anyway, I had another silly little thought. If "all things are true" in the Gargoyles universe, is Elvis still alive?
Spen
If you think there's good in everybody, you havn't met everybody.
posted @ Tue, Sep 6, 2005 8:02:06 pm EDT from 207.177.11.252

GUANDALUG - Thanks, but it's not actually a "missing part"; that phrase suggests a piece that "fell out" along the way, as opposed to one that I forgot to write. And I'll confess that it's small enough that I don't think that its omission is really such a great loss.

MATT - Welcome back! In answer to your question, the DVD is coming out on December 6, and will cover all the episodes from "Leader of the Pack" to "Kingdom". Greg will introduce each one, and there'll also be an audio commentary for "City of Stone" done by Greg, Frank Paur, and Michael Reaves.

The comic will be coming out early next year, though we don't have a specific date for it, and will cover the third season the way that Greg had planned to do it, starting (most likely) with an adaptation of "The Journey" the way that Greg had already written it (in other words, no Goliath gliding off on an injured wing at the end). We don't know much more than that at present, however.
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Tue, Sep 6, 2005 8:02:29 am EDT from 4.244.12.164

Todd> Easy... just send me the missing part, and I'll put it in. It's not much work for me, so.... Just tell me where to put it, and it'll be added.
Guandalug la'Fay - [guandalug@gargoyles-fans.org]
posted @ Tue, Sep 6, 2005 7:22:30 am EDT from 134.147.82.247

Welcome Back Matt. Was kind of wondering where alot of the regulars vanished to over the summer. Hope now that September is here we see them all return.

As for what happened-I'm sure you've heard about Season 2 volume one coming out on DVD December 6th right?

As for the Signature section-you put whatever you want-case in point.
Wingless
one banana, two banana, three banana, four. 4 bananas make a bunch and so do many more
posted @ Tue, Sep 6, 2005 1:41:22 am EDT from 70.27.173.206

I'M BACK!!!

actually, i doubt anyone noticed i've been MIA for a long time... my last post was June 20!

i've been going through a major life shift lately. i moved from St Louis, Mo to Cape Girardeau, Mo and am currently attending college down here. my life has totally flipped around... everything is changing.

and i get a little free time and decide to drop by Station 8 to see how things are going and everything has changed here too!

i really don't have time to read through 10-15 weeksof comment room stuff, so could someone tell me what major changes and events took place since the end of June (besides the changes in the Comment Room) whats going on with the comic book? season 2 dvd? anything crazy revealed at the gathering or in Ask Greg??
thanks to whoever feels like filling me in, i appreciate it...

what the hell do i put in the "signature" box?
matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
posted @ Tue, Sep 6, 2005 12:02:59 am EDT from 66.189.238.101

Todd: That sounds far too similar to the Clock King, who was always one of my least favorite villains in the Animated Series. It always seemed to me like everyone else's revenge was motivated by something legitimate, something most people could relate to. The Clock King was just a goofy character.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"There's nothing wrong with nice guys. You've gotta have someone to take advantage of. But they always finish last." -Porter
posted @ Mon, Sep 5, 2005 11:56:30 pm EDT from 69.174.1.148

Techie question: For those of you who frequent the IRC chatroom, I don't suppose you might have any idea why it wouldn't be working on my laptop? It says that it's failing to connect to the server... and the next server... and the next... etc ad nauseum.

I wonder if this might have something to do with me connecting to one of the many wireless networks in my building for free? ;) Maybe it has to be my own network? Ah well...
Desdemona - [allykatty1@hotmail.com]
give.redcross.org
posted @ Mon, Sep 5, 2005 9:15:37 pm EDT from 151.205.104.219

PATRICK - By all means, go ahead. I was expecting you to start on the countdowns eventually, given your track record here as the Countdown King (which title actually sounds almost like a Batman villain, by the way).

GUANDALUG - Thanks for your thanks. (Though I wish that I'd remembered in my review of "Lighthouse" to include the little scene where Bronx is sleeping on Lexington's magazines - I always get a kick out of that part.)
Todd Jensen
"Human problems become gargoyle problems" - Goliath, M.I.A.
posted @ Mon, Sep 5, 2005 6:45:46 pm EDT from 4.245.16.105

*bangs head again and again...*

I'm done now. Okay, I am trying to make this video as professional as possible...I am trying to write a script for a voice over actor who is giving me a very low price. But god, I so don't want a cliche, craptacular script...

For a thousand years, they laid dormant, in stone cold sleep...till an impossible spell was finally broken...awakened in a time they do not know...in a world they do not understand...they watch us...waiting...to save us all...

On December 6th, 2005, the legend continues...

okay, and with the action in the ()

For a thousand years, they laid dormant, in stone cold sleep (views of the castle, the stone gargoyles)...till an impossible spell was finally broken (view of the castle in NY, the gargoyles awakening)...awakened in a time they do not know (scenes of various episodes from season 2)...in a world they do not understand (same)...they watch us...waiting...to save us all (scenes of City of Stone, mostly)...
(more scenes)

On December 6th, 2005, the legend continues...(end with Gargoyles logo and the date of release)

Does is suck? Too much? Cliche? I know I'll be showing scenes of Season 1 at the beginning, I was also thinking of adding at the end, a picture of Season 1 cover, with "Now Available".

I just thought it might start looking like the gargoyles are the villian and then the "save us all", might perk some people's interest...

Please, critque!! If you totally hate it, please, be totally honest. As brutal as it may be. I want to hear what you guys think Thanks!
Siren
posted @ Mon, Sep 5, 2005 6:31:39 pm EDT from 67.8.164.95

Here we go again: Another update - and again, it's new stuff by Todd Jensen. To quote him: "Four new episode commentary/reviews as a Labor Day present for the GFW." - it's "Leader of the Pack", "Metamorphosis", "Legion" and "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time". Additionally, I added the missing Overviews (3 of those lacked an overview). As a rule, I'm going to add an overview whenever I upgrade a story page without one from now on, so there'll be no more mentions of new overviews.
Guandalug la'Fay - [guandalug@gargoyles-fans.org]
posted @ Mon, Sep 5, 2005 4:03:21 pm EDT from 80.145.60.145

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Comments for the week ending September 12, 2005

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