A Station Eight Fan Web Site


The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending September 26, 2005

Index : Hide Images

Have I stepped into an alternate dimension??? Everyone is ambling about TGC??? Did Hades buy Hockey skates???

Do do do-do do do do-do....

Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Todd>>I've always liked your rambles...so deep.

Anyway, I thought that the only episode that had any merit was "Dying by the Light". It sort of kept the drama of the original 66 episodes. "Broadway..." always seemed too goofy...leave that kind of stuff to the other cartoons.

Anyway, that' my two cents.

Lord GargFan

Even if making peace with the humans had seemed hopeless, I doubt that Goliath would have ever agreed to leaving Manhattan. He believed that it was the clan's duty to protect the island, no matter how its human inhabitants treated it. He insisted on continuing to protect Castle Wyvern no matter how the humans there treated them, and he approved of Raven's clan continuing to protect the humans of Queen Florence Island even after those same humans had slaughtered most of that same clan (in Raven's lie). He would have viewed it as his duty to go on protecting the humans, no matter how the humans responded in turn. And Goliath had always felt that duty was more important than mere survival and self-preservation. As he put it in "Shadows of the Past", "What is life without honor?"

This, perhaps, is one weak point of the "Angels in the Night" that we got; Goliath makes it sound as if the reason for staying in New York was to keep on working towards making peace with the humans. Properly speaking, the Goliath of the original 66 episodes would be making his real argument the fact that Manhattan was their protectorate and it was not the Gargoyle Way to desert it, putting their own safety before that of the humans who lived there. (Besides, Goliath also understood that the bulk of the humans weren't evil, just frightened; they believed that the gargoyles were demonic monsters, and given the way that living gargoyles have been portrayed in fantasy stories and games for so long, is that any surprise? Should they be abandoned to their fate merely because of their gullibility?)

I still sometimes wonder if part of the Goliath Chronicles' direction stemmed from Eric Lewald being the new head of the production team. I know that Eric had played a major role on the production team for the original "X-Men" series on FOX, and he might have let that influence him, helping lead to the point where he overemphasized the gargoyle vs. human relations element and the Quarrymen (turning the latter almost into the Friends of Humanity with electified hammers) and distorted it in the process (such as making the human population aware too early that the gargoyles were intelligent beings). But we've no way of knowing for certain.

Greg has stated in his comments about the upcoming comic that he's going to ignore the Goliath Chronicles, and that should make it clear that this is his current attitude.

I might add that, based on what Greg said, I believe that the Quarrymen part of the story would be, more accurately, the Castaway part of the story. Greg said that he planned to focus the "Quarrymen stories" around Castaway and his hatred for the gargoyles (rooted in his background as Jon Canmore) rather than around the Quarrymen in general (whom I suspect would have been mostly extras, like Hakon's Vikings or Duncan and Canmore's soldiers in "City of Stone", rather than major antagonists).

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Greg B> it was a joke, but i choose to judge each episode on its on faults and merits (if any). Broadway Goes to Hollywood is the only TGC ep that IMHO has more merits then faults. some of them have no merits. most have few. bad animation was a problem for all. but don't lump them all together and say they all are the worst thing ever. because some have some ok stuff. if i had the choice between making them all canon or making them cease to exist, i'd choose the latter, but i can't do that. no matter how much we dislike that show it will always exist and always be connected to Gargoyles, whether we consider it canon or not.
matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"Do not despise the day of small beginnings." -Zechariah 4:10

Todd Jensen: Yeah, I know how much "I seem to recall" statements suck, but I distinctly remember a point where he said that as much as he disliked the stories, he'd have to make the most of it. I know it's in the Ask Greg Archives. Maybe he retracted that statement later. I probably should have double checked. It's been a long time since I've been here.

I also think that TGC sucked, but I still think the Quarrymen storyline was doomed to become tiresome if it got actually played out.

Danny Lilithborne - [vm_postitnotes@yahoo.com]
Heroes get remembered, but legends never die. Follow your heart, kid, and you'll never go wrong...

Jurgan: It wasn't Goliath who punched Jackal. It was Zafiro and Jade. Still, I don't think two gargoyles could punch someone so hard that he'd fly across the forest and land in a hot tub. Still, it was funny! It kind of makes me wonder if that was actually scripted or if the animators were just having fun with the scene...

Oh by the way, I really think we should launch another reviews campaign for the second Gargoyles DVD! We have 11 reviews so far, and we have until December, so I think we can make it to 100 again!

D. Taina - [<-- Evil Synopsis!]
Goliath: "..Flying off to Hollywood?!" -Broadway goes to Hollywood

I wouldn't group Sesame Street with Barney, as I think Sesame Street is one of the best children's programs of all time. At least, it was before Elmo worfed the entire cast.

I did kind of like "Broadway Goes Hollywood" as a fun, goofy episode, and I think it was the first TGC ep. I saw. It seemed very much in character for Broadway and Fox to hatch such a plan to get the clan positive attention and, while you may have a point that it eliminated the uncertainty amongst humans of what gargoyles were and how they should be treated, there's no reason why they couldn't have had such success. Maybe it would have been better if they'd simply saved that until later in the season. My one big problem with the episode was Jackal and Hyena. Actually, I think they were already on the downslide in The Green, which ended with Goliath hitting Jackal so hard that he flew back to the Cyberbiotics compound AND LANDED IN THE HOT TUB. That sort of thing might work in a campy action show like Darkwing Duck, but it seemed way too silly for a character who had just earlier been dreaming of carving Goliath's face apart. But J&H got even worse in Broadway goes Hollywood, when they kidnapped Broadway, carried him out through the skylight, and quipped "Broadway has left the building!" In unison. At that point, I took them about as seriously as Team Rocket. I know that S&P on ABC morning's probably prevented them from acting as sadistically as they used to, but I got absolutely no threatening feeling off of them in that episode.

The other two episodes I kind of liked were "The Dying of the Light" and "Genesis Undone." The former because I always liked Jeffrey Robbins, yet we really only saw him meaningfully in one episode (I don't count his scene in City of Stone, since he was mainly there to advance the plot). Also, the doctor who treated Hudson was a very unusual presence. As for Genesis, I liked having another Thailog episode. We finally got a break from the Quarreymen, and Thailog was just as cruel as ever. I especially liked how he stayed menacing and unrepentant even as he died. "I did so enjoy causing you grief" is to me a very chilling line, and at the same time I kind of feel sorry for Thailog. Sure, he's a bad guy and he brought it all on himself (if he hadn't tried to kill Sevarius way back when, maybe the doctor wouldn't have been so eager to get rid of him), yet there's something wistful about his dying words that really does engender some sympathy. I'm less sure about Sevarius's relationship with Little Anton, and I understand Greg had plans for the clones in the future and didn't want them to die so quickly, but on its own merits, I think Genesis Undone was a good episode, and actually on par with some of the original Gargoyles episodes.

As for the ending of Angels in the Night, I'm not sure which is worse. Sure, the gargs leaving Manhattan is out of character, but after how little success they had converting the public opinion, one can hardly blame them wanting to leave and restart their lives somewhere where they'd be unknown. Of course, once reports of gargoyles fighting crime in Chicago surfaced, I doubt it'd take long for the Quarreymen to come after them. Still, it's hardly worse than the public's almost constant fear and hatred of gargoyles being overcome in one moment because of saving a train that happened to have a public figure on board. While realistically this event could not have stopped all anti-gargoyle sentiment, the episode seemed to suggest that it was a perfect happy ending, and I don't think the production team really thought through what would happen next. They thought it was over and that the gargoyles journey was successfully completed. That seems contrary to one of the big aspects of Gargoyles- that nothing ever really ends, and life goes on, even hundreds of years in the future.

I don't know what the point of posting on Sunday afternoon is, when the room'll be wiped in nine hours.

Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
"Note well an endlessness of little dogs, receding through progressive diminution to a revelation of the ultimate truth... Beyond the last visible dog." -Russell Hoban, The Mouse and His Child

MATT> <<ya know, i'm beginning to suspect that Greg B dislikes TGC...>>

Doesn't everybody? ;)

I mean, bad animation, dumbed down storylines, characters acting completely out of character. Not a single compelling moment in the whole thing. What's there to like?

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Clicky, clicky.]
I am so going to the Special Hell

Greg B: I don't deny that both endings suck. What I'm saying is that if someone tied me to a chair, put a gun to my head, and told me to choose an ending to "Angels In The Night" (and those were my only two choices), I'd go with the happy ending, which does not make as big a mockery of the series as the other ending.

Todd: Yeah, I imagine that even though fear is a great tool, in the long run it can come around to bite a villain in the ass. Even though "Empire Strikes Back" is my favorite movie in the Star Wars Saga, every time I watch it I always wonder just how many Imperial officers, when they found out they were being considered for promotion to the bridge crew of the "Executor," deliberately did something to get themselves demoted. The issue was actually addressed in one of the Bantam Skylark books. Some character is chatting with an Imperial officer who, when they met several years ago was a captain, and was now a lieutenant. When asked about that, he said "my fall from grace was carefully orchestrated. Only a fool would want to serve aboard Lord Vader's flagship. The mortality rate is phenomenal."

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
This space intentionally left blank. Oh, wait. Nevermind.

I was just reading through the Ask Greg Archives, and I came across a ramble(?) about the episode "The Price". Of particular interest was when Greg mentioned that he could have ran with the notion that Hudson's prison was in his mind. That's exactly what I thought was happening, I thought it was a mental/dream prison that was part of the spell. Did anyone else think that?

Anyway, what I was looking for in the archives was to see if there was mention of why Hudson wasn't on the animated menus of the first DVD set of the series (although I realise that there was an image of him frozen in stone on the subtitle menu). Does anyone know if Hudson was left off the menu intentially? Was it a hint that Hudson had died by 2005, or am I just suffering from an overactive imagination?

Also, is there currently a date for the 2006 Gathering? I've always wanted to visit LA and NYC, so being able to attend a Gathering as well would be quite a bonus.


Mr. X

Greg said that he *would* ignore TGC, not the other way around. (As a side-note, I tend to be very cautious around any statement that begins "I think" or "I seem to recall" or "I vaguely remember". I've seen too many cases where a statement with such an opening turned out to be a case of faulty memory.)

One other thought that I had about "To Serve Mankind"'s big problems: another of these is the indication at the end that the Illuminati's wrath is going to come down hard on Dr. Nexus because the assassination plot failed. While such behavior is conventional among "cliched villains", it's also extremely foolish - if you punish your subordinates for failure (unless it's deliberate failure as opposed to simply getting unexpectedly outthought by the good guys), you're pretty soon going to run out of subordinates as the ones who haven't "botched things up" yet decide that they'd better desert before they wind up on the receiving end of your wrath and you find fewer people willing to work for you. (It wouldn't be quite so improbable if it was someone like Demona or the Archmage here - both of them were notorious for letting their anger get the better of them - but the Illuminati are supposed to be on the same level of level-headed planning as Xanatos, if not better. And you didn't catch Xanatos firing employees just because they'd failed to capture the gargoyles; he'd only cut you off if you tried backstabbing him - as Xanatos believed that Sevarius was doing in "Double Jeopardy" - or otherwise deliberately failing him, as in the scene in "The Edge" where Xanatos said that he'd fire Owen if Owen pretended to lose to him in one of their judo matches.)

And, yes, the actual ending of "Angels in the Night" was too "happily-ever-after" - though I suppose that it could be justified by the fact that, if we'd seen the New Yorkers reject and hate the gargoyles yet once again even after all the times that the clan had come to the rescue (and now saving the whole passenger train from the Quarrymen), we'd have reached the point where we'd almost *want* Demona to wipe out the city.

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

I think Greg Weisman has said that if he were to do another Gargoyles series, he would not ignore TGC. Personally, despite the crapfest that was TGC, I'm somewhat satisfied with its conclusion. I could already see the whole human/gargoyle tension thing getting tiresome with time, no matter how good the writing was.
Danny Lilithborne - [vm_postitnotes@yahoo.com]
Heroes get remembered, but legends never die. Follow your heart, kid, and you'll never go wrong...

ya know, i'm beginning to suspect that Greg B dislikes TGC...
matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"Do not despise the day of small beginnings." -Zechariah 4:10

You know what? Both TGC endings suck.

Yeah, the one of them abandoning Manhattan would have been out of character and massive character rape. But the one we got was a cookie-cutter, dumbed down, hokey and corny ending that was just terrible as well.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Clicky, clicky.]
I am so going to the Special Hell

Todd: I had the AIM conversation saved, but I lost it during the rebooting. If I remember correctly, I believe SHE felt that the writers were taking an easy way out by giving it a formulaic happy ending. My counterpoint was that at least that was more faithful because it didn't have the gargoyles performing a massive betrayal of character, like what the writers had originally wanted. We argued over that single facet for quite some time. I don't know why I didn't put my AIM chats on a backup disc (weird thing was, I thought I had, but when I copied all my documents back onto the computer, they were't there).
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Is it any wonder that my mind's on fire, imprisoned by the thought of what to do? Is it any wonder that my joke's an iron, and the joke's on you?"

Greg: Umm...I don't get it. Go ahead, explain. I'm sure that they won't mind. (Or maybe I'm just too confused and nosey about that whole blurb you just said.)

Honestly, unless we hired new animators, Matt, I don't think that TGC could be salvaged. And even if we tried, would we want to? IMHO, "Gargoyles" was a great animated drama, and "Gargoyles: The Goliath Chronicles" is the fantasy/*cough*pipedream*cough* spin-off. I wouldn't watch the show if they counted TGC canon...because there would be no show altogether.

And whoever thought that having the gargs abandon hope should be the ending to The Goliath Chronicles should be forced to watch The Goliath Chronicles (the complete series--"cover to cover") bookended by Barney and Sesame Street episodes for all eternity. (I know, that's even harsher than what they did to those Iraqi prisoners by playing them Barney, Sesame Street, and heavy metal songs to force them to confess, but it's just a fantasy. I wouldn't wish it actually on anyone but certain extremists.)

Lord GargFan
I don't get a thing Bihansky just chanted...

HARVESTER - Did you ask your friend why he held the opinion that he did the original ending to "Angels in the Night"? I think that that proposal was a dreadful one - the clan just giving up, running away, and leaving the victory to Castaway and the bigotry that he stood for? - but I'd like to know why someone would have liked it. (It might have been interesting in the sense of providing an unconventionally bleak end to the series - kind of like what we got on the individual level with "Her Brother's Keeper" and "Metamorphosis" - but still an alarming one.)

At least (to the best of my knowledge) the new production team never seems to have considered just letting Goliath and his clan get blown up for real in Castaway's trap in Act I - I doubt that ABC's S&P department would have permitted that in any case. Though I've sometimes wondered what the impact would have been on the fandom if that *had* been the fate for the gargoyles. Would we still be holding Gatherings all these years later if the series had ended on that note? (One thing's for certain; there'd have been a lot of enraged "Gargoyles" fans going after Eric Lewald and the rest of the new staff if they had dared end the series like that!)

The one possible reason that I could think of for Goliath agreeing to abandon the city would be something like this: somebody (maybe Elisa, maybe someone else) says to him, "I know that you vowed to protect Manhattan and its people from all who threaten them. But the biggest threat to the island is the Quarrymen - and their quarrel is with you and your clan, not the human citizenry. If you stay here, the Quarrymen will tear the city apart trying to kill you, and who knows how many people will get hurt or worse. But if you and the other gargoyles leave, the Quarrymen will be left without a target and disperse. The best way that you can protect Manhattan is to leave it - the police can still protect it, anyway." (And even then, that argument overlooks the possibility that the Quarrymen might simply find a new target once the gargoyles had left; given the way that they were portrayed in the Goliath Chronicles, I doubt that they'd be content to just hang up their hoods and hammers once the gargoyles were gone.)

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Guandalug: Only that they ARE coming. Life's crazy right now, but I might be working only one job in the near future, and if that happens, I should have more time. Hopefully, I can get those done in the next few weeks.

Todd: I actually had an debate with someone once over the original ending to "Angels In the Night." I told them what the staff had originally planned to do, and they told me they thought that would have been more interesting. I love this person to death, but I have trouble grasping that there are fans of Gargoyles who think it would be cool to just have the entire clan give up and allow prejudice and intolerance to rule the day.

*joins Greg in looking at all the lightning*

Greg: Maybe they're asleep. At least we're getting a nice light show out of it. All we need now is Pink Floyd's "Echoes" playing in the background.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
As I knew they would, Blue Oyster Cult rocked the f*cking house last night. Now I've gotta find what album "The Vision" is off of.

..... Of course, I should've checked my email BEFORE posting this.... Todd already sent me 4 new Reviews.
Therefore, you now can read his thoughts on " Shadows of the Past", "Heritage", "Kingdom" and "Monsters".
Now, after posting those, I'm off to do my own Synopsis...... can't pester all people here for the promised summaries and not do my own :)

Guandalug la'Fay - [guandalug@gargoyles-fans.org]

D. Taina> Nope, no volunteers (except for Ransom, which was claimed by Harvester of Eyes). You know the list of missing summaries - go ahead, you're welcome.
HoE> You volunteered to sum up Gathering, Part II and Ransom - any news on that?
*goes to work on his own 'Hunters Moon I' summary before new reviews from Todd flow in :)*

Guandalug la'Fay - [guandalug@gargoyles-fans.org]

::Steps into the Comment Room wearing black flowing robes, lightning crackling all around him::

Ancient spirits of evil, I summon your servants Aaron and Mara to this Comment Room to tell the true story of the Goliath Chronic(als).

::Lightning continues to strike::

Or, they can just give me permission to tell the story ;)

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Clicky, clicky.]
I am so going to the Special Hell

i was thinking today about the salvageability (sp?) of the TGC and i remembered my bro telling me about a remake of the first Star Wars movie called "Episode I: The Phantom Remake" apparently someone took the exiting movie and reordered/dropped scenes to make the movie a better movie in the eyes of most Star Wars fans.
now i know the animation is pretty bad throughout TGC, but maybe we could do something similiar. true we have less material to work with, i dunno, just a thought...

matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"Do not dspise the day of small beginnings." -Zechariah 4:10

I know that we oughtn't to be analyzing the Goliath Chronicles, but it's human nature to want to analyze things - and it does give us something to discuss until the new comic comes out.

I'll confess that I don't pay that much attention to Hudson's name being called out in the flashback in "The Dying of the Light", simply because a lot of the flaws in the Goliath Chronicles (Castaway out of jail again and on good terms with Margot in "Angels in the Night", everyone figuring out too quickly that the gargoyles are sentient, the Quarrymen's tactics depending upon the knowledge of the gargoyles' true nature and motivations, etc.) are far worse. It's like worrying over how a painting in your new house has been hung up crooked more than over the fact that most of the doors constantly get stuck, the stairs are seriously uneven, the roof leaks, plaster is falling off the walls, and the house is slowly sinking into the ground.

I wonder if they deliberately ignored continuity issues in the Goliath Chronicles out of the fear that the episodes might wind up aired out of order (I remember seeing a series of synopsis of the episodes and guest-star voices, which was ordered differently than the actual television series, so that "Broadway Goes to Hollywood" came directly after "The Journey" instead of "Ransom"). And the original series did have to worry a little about that (remember the trouble that they had when "Enter Macbeth" had to be delayed due to animation issues and they had to rerun "Awakening" for the next month?), so the new production team might have decided to drop that concept to be on the safe side. Even so, it still left open the issue of why everybody in "Angels in the Night" had forgotten about Castaway's behavior in "For It May Come True" - unless the Illuminati quickly repaired all the damage to buildings caused by the Quarrymen's artillery, destroyed or hid the artillery, and had a lot of agents wearing dark glasses telling the public (including Margot) that the Quarrymen were *not* firing off heavy artillery in downtown Manhattan while simultaneously flashing odd little gadgets in front of their faces....

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Trust me, you don't want to analyze To Serve Mankind. I had to watch the thing for the synopsis a few times and I'm surprised I'm still sane. It's so full of errors, contradictions, and it's incredibly frustrating because it almost ruined everything the first two seasons stood for. Why did they feel the need to try to ruin all of season one and two in "one moment of madness," only to ignore the episode in Angels in the Night? Why was Xanatos flying the helicopter? Why on Earth would the Illuminati wear those stupid robes and their chair number on their chest? Why were their headquarters so cheesy, with those spiked chairs and the magic cylinders? Why, oh WHY did they have to say that damn name so many times?! It still baffles me.

Come on, Xanatos? Chair VII? Please!

Eg-n P-x himself was incredibly annoying and had zero personality. I was rooting for Goliath to finish him off already! This was me, while writing the synopsis (click my name): "Die, Eg-n P-x, die! Kill him, Goliath! Kill him! Make the chanting stop! End my pain! Mwahahah!"

Which reminds me... Guandalug, has anyone volunteered to write synopses for the rest of season three? Because I want the job! :P

D. Taina - [<-- Evil Synopsis!]
Must... destroy... Eg-n P-x! EG-N P-X!

Word of advise.

Don't try to analyse the Goliath Chronicles. It will just make your head hurt.

Greg Bishansky
I am so going to the Special Hell

Harvester of Eyes - my thought on the difference in the dream in "Long way till morning" and "The Dying of the Light" may be simply - time. Hudson had just recently taken the name "Hudson" around the time of "Long way Till Morning" - but some years had passed between then and "the dying of the light". Dreams do strange things. Hey, I didn't like the fact that they did it in the story either, but that could be one simple reason for it.

Just a silly thought


Todd: I don't think the Goliath Chronicles had that sense of an ongoing storyline that the first 66 episodes of Gargoyles did. You might also remember that "Angels in the Night" took place only two episodes after "To Serve Mankind," the episode where all the clan's work to make humans accept them was gone in "an instant of madness" (or a moment, or whatever). But it was okay, because two episodes later, that was forgotten. And as I said earlier, that episode was also notorious for having Castaway (who'd been arrested only three episodes prior in "For It May Come True") seeming to be best pals with the Assistant DA. And of course, Margot never made any reference to Castaway's arrest for stockpiling military grade ordnance. And just where did his construction company come from? Did that spring up overnight? Ah well, as we all know, the episode could have been a lot worse.

Wingless (and this also goes back to what Todd said a few days ago):I can understand that Hudson might have been dreaming at the beginning of "Dying of the Light," but that only raises the question of why, when he was dreaming at the beginning of "Long Way to Morning," Prince Malcolm didn't call him Hudson.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Harvester of Eyes, that's me! And I see all there is to see!" -Blue Oyster Cult, playing the State Theater in Falls Church tonight. I am so freaking there!

still, whether it takes mystery away or not, i still think its realistic. most likely the Clan wants some of their mystery to go away, it probably causes them a lot of stress. and we know Broadway would impulsively do this and Fox would encourage him, and what studio wouldn't agree to an interview, it'd be automatic awesome ratings, wouldn't YOU watch?
if you want to be upset about the Gargoyles losing their mystique you should go back to Hunter's Moon, not any of the TGC eps.

matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]

While "Broadway Goes to Hollywood" did end with things being better for the clan in terms of public perception, the very next episode, "A Bronx Tale", opened with almost everyone hating gargoyles all over again - without a word of explanation for why that was.

While that episode had a few fun elements to it (such as Fox's friends faking the "plane in trouble" so that Broadway would come to the rescue - it certainly shows that Xanatos and Fox are still thinking like tricksters even after they make peace with the clan - and Jackal and Hyena's involvement as the antagonists; Jackal certainly *would* don a director's beret just before filming Broadway blowing up an L.A. landmark!), one aspect of it that strikes me as moving far too quickly was letting the public see so much of the gargoyles' lives - via having Broadway on a talk show. One of the crucial aspects of the series was that sense of mystery in that the bulk of the humans didn't know what the gargoyles were, that the gargoyles were leading out their lives in secret, with only an occasional spillover of their adventures into the public eye - just enough for everyone to be saying bewilderedly "What on earth happened here?", but no more than that. Even "The Journey", set after the gargoyles were revealed to the public, still had the human inhabitants of New York viewing the gargoyles as an unknown factor (as in the Jogger saying, "What are those creatures, anyway? Aliens? Dinosaurs? Demons?"). However, in the course of the Goliath Chronicles, the public learned so much about the gargoyles (thanks to Broadway's talk show, Goliath on trial, and the ending of "Angels in the Night") that they could no longer see the gargoyles as something mysterious.

It's increasingly occurred to me that this is an even better reason for why any revival of "Gargoyles" (such as the upcoming comic book) should ignore the Goliath Chronicles than just the "acceptance ending" of "Angels in the Night". (After the way that they handled the "racial hatred" element in the Goliath Chronicles, the series probably could use a good long break from that theme and focus on other aspects of the Gargoyles Universe.) After all the developments in the Goliath Chronicles, the gargoyles, by the end of "Angels in the Night", would now be in the public eye in the same way as human celebrities. The general population of New York now know so much about them that it can never go back to the attitude of "Just what are those things anyway?" And the whole tone of the gargoyles' secret struggle for survival against various adversaries, that was so strong in the first two seasons, would be lost. The next time that the gargoyles get threatened by Demona or the Pack, they'll probably have a lot more of the NYPD than just Elisa for back-up. They'd be as "public eye" as Superman.

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Of TGC episodes, I still liked "The Dying of the Light" Despite the glitch in Hudson's dream and goliath mentioning his name when he didn't have one(dreams can be like that, btw). I personally like the interaction between Hudson & Robbins and how Jeffery figures out that Hudson is a Gargoyle. I also liked that we see Angela reach out to members of P.I.T.T. while they recover after the Quarrymen attack. I wish we could have seen more interaction between the Gargoyles and them-if anything to show the other side of the coin and there were humans that wanted to reach out to them. ULtimately, like all TGC episodes, it could have been much better presented, but then I'm crying over spilled milk. *goese to get a mop and some tissues*

Todd: My favorite part of that episode was the fact that destroying the gargoyles was the Assassin's "lifelong dream," despite the fact that they were frozen in stone before he was even born.

Spen: I'm a little tired right now. But I read the first paragraph and I like it already. I would say that the story is non-canon, but then again, that's what most of us consider "Ransom" to be. Thanks for the find.

I had a random thought at work today, which was easy, because very few people picked up the phone. Anyway, I was wondering if in the Gargoyles universe, any non-partisan research firms (like the one I work for) would have been commissioned by the Pew Research Center or the Commonwealth Fund to conduct opinion studies after the public became aware of the gargoyles' existence. I got to wondering what kind of questions would make up such a survey. Probably questions that really don't tell anyone anything, like "overall, would you say your opinion of the gargoyles in Manhattan is very favorable, mostly favorable, mostly unfavorable, or very unfavorable?"

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"The sands of time were eroded by the river of constant change."

i've said it before and i'll say it again, the only TGC episode i think is at all salvageable (besides "The Journey" of course) is "Broadway Goes to Hollywood". i have minor issues with it, like i think Mr and Mrs. Xanatos's fire-hydrant car is ridiculous and Fox's suit is way too Hunter-esque (see Robin Canmore in "Hunter's Moon") but overall, i think its an alright episode. oh, and the animation could have been better too. the episode didn't fail where all the other TGC eps did. everyone acted more or less in character, the Broadway/Angela relationship was not ignored, and the ending did not put the Clan's public opinion rating back where it started, it seemed to get better for the gargs. i really think Broadway would do something like that, and so would Fox. obviously Jackel and Hyena will work for anyone who pays well, esspecially if they get to take out a gargoyle. i loved Fox's stunt with the stunt pilots (lol, that sounds repetitive) it is so what her and Xanatos would do.
anyway, tahst my two cents on that. give me "The Journey" and "Broadway Goes to Hollywood", clean up the animation, throw out some of the silly cartoony stuff, tweak the dialogue and you have two very good Gargoyles episodes. the rest of TGC is total crap, can't salvage that, easier to start over, lol.

LofR> i actually just finished the extended versions of the movies last week and read The Hobbit yesterday and started Fellowship today. i had the same thought about flying the Ring to Mordor, and then i had the same thought as Todd. you'd have the Nazgul all over the Eagle before you can say 'Tom Bombadil'. even if you sent a bunch of Eagles i think the brute force method would be doomed. if Sauron thought, "hey, maybe they'll try to destroy the Ring" he would've figured they'd try a brute force method, and you can be sure that as soon as a flock of giant eagles passed over the borders of Mordor he'd figure things out pretty quick. he'd call up the Nazgul to attack, pile his Orc armies around Mount Doom and wait for the Ring to fall into his hands. Todd is right, the only way in was in stealth. and you can't get more stealthy then two little hobbits.

matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]

Harvester : Nancy Brown's story "Aft A'Gley" made an explaination for "Ransom".

HARVESTER - The nit that you mention for "The Lord of the Rings" isn't that big a problem. After all, an eagle in flight would have been too conspicuous, in the way that a couple of hobbits creeping along on the ground in foot wouldn't have been. The Quest of Mount Doom was specifically intended as a stealth mission. (Also, it wouldn't have solved the problem of what happens when they reach Mount Doom and the temptations of the Ring overwhelm Frodo; if Gwaihir had flown him from Rivendell straight to the Cracks of Doom, Gollum would still be stuck in Moria and wouldn't be at hand to bite off Frodo's finger after the latter succumbed to the Ring and then fall into the chasm during his victory dance.)

Another problem with the Quarryman involvement in "Generations" is their strategy: they set up a fake mugging for the gargoyles to foil so that they can then ambush them. The plan depends on the Quarrymen knowing that the gargoyles really are noble protectors rather than evil monsters, which in turn makes mincemeat of their motivations. (The same problem exists in "Angels in the Night", where they set up the fake "little girl in the hole" lure to trick Goliath, Hudson, and the trio in being caught in their latest trap, for that matter.) If the Quarrymen know that the gargoyles are really the good guys, who come to the aid of humans in trouble, then how do they justify their hatred for them? (Of course, since the Quarrymen in the Goliath Chronicles seem composed almost exclusively of professional mercenaries, with the "frightened citizen" element from "The Journey" mysteriously absent, perhaps it isn't such a problem, if we assume that they've gone from a Ku Klux Klan-style racial hatred group to a case of the Manhattan criminal population uniting to take down those winged crime-busters once and for all - as if the Gotham City underworld factions were to all join forces to get rid of Batman, say.)

Perhaps the worst part of "Generations" is that in it, all of the humans (the Quarrymen, the woman pretending to be in need of rescue, and the "Invisible Guy") are treacherous and hopelessly anti-gargoyle; there's not even a hint of any humans that have accepted gargoyles and befriended them, not even Elisa. Seen in isolation, it comes dangerously close to supporting Demona's arguments to such an extent that one wonders if part of the reason why they had Demona betraying the gargoyles and secretly working with the "Invisible Guy" all along was to keep the audience from taking what she'd said seriously - an effort to discredit her via an "argument ad hominem".

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

you know? i agree with you. Demona would ever EVER work with the quarrymen. It would be like working with the hunters. And she remark it in huners moon that her hate for the clan is nothing compare to her grudge against humanity

And for clarity, the inconsistencies to which I refer to at the start of my comments are those in the first 66 episodes of Gargoyles that I've been reading about in people's comments.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]

Well, I think there are inconsistencies in any masterwork. I just got done watching the extended editions of "Lord of the Rings" with the director commentary on (that's one commentary track down, two or three to go). Peter Jackson mentioned that one of the great nits of that trilogy was why the ringbearer had to proceed all the way to Mordor on foot, and they couldn't just have an eagle fly them to Mount Doom. In the end, if the storytelling is engaging enough, I'm willing to suspend disbelief over details so minor that they completely go right by you on the first viewing.

Spen: Let's not forget there was one believable thing about "To Serve Mankind" that Todd's mentioned a couple times. Gargoyles fans may have a wide variety of opinions, but we probably all have one thing we can agree on: Eg-n P-x must be destroyed! And yes Patrick, we all know who the real Egon is.

While we're pointing out inconsistencies in TGC, let's point out the numerous times that everyone acted out of character. Where do we begin there? Fox in "Ransom," perhaps? Or Brooklyn in "Runaways" (I don't think the new team saw "Kingdom," either). How about Demona working with Quarrymen (one of my personal favorites)? Then there was the fact that in the last episode, Margot (an Assistant DA) was getting all chummy with a guy who'd been arrested for stockpiling military ordnance and firing it in a city. I'm sure I'll think of more later.

Silverbolt: I think my vote went through. Anything to promote awareness of stuff that doesn't suck. And I know what you mean. There was a period of time (which I think might still be going on) when Cartoon Network should have been called Scooby-Doo network. There were a few cartoons they used to show that frankly, they should show again. Know of any websites where I can sign a petition for Freakazoid?

Today I'm overstepping my bounds and saying that there are 75 days left until Gargoyles, Season Two Volume One comes out on DVD. I do this so I can also announce that we've got 89 reviews to go. Even if it's just one or two lines, it'll help.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE." -God's final message to his creation.


Britians' Disney Channel is 10 years old and they want people to vote for their favourite show.

Unfortunatly this'll probably mean that they'll probably make the top ten be the only shows that are on Disney Channel at the moment seeing as how they only show 10 shows these days...

So I thought that maybe we should try and get Gargoyles in that list. I don't know if there would be enough people to make a difference considering the ratio of Gargoyle Fans to little kids who are being subjected to 24 hours of Recess none stop (they should just turn Toon Disney into just the Recess channel with the amount of times they show it these days...) But hey, we can try, it might get people in Britian interested in Gargoyles again. ^_^

Heck it might at last bring on the 1st season DVD of Gargoyles over here!

Silverbolt - [Silverbolt2012@yahoo.co.uk]

I suspect that it was also a case of the new team feeling confused about Gargoyle biology (we're all probably so sub-consciously adjusted to the notion of sunlight turning "creatures of the night" to stone that it's probably far easier for us to think in such terms than in that of "internal biological clock").

I've mentioned before that the really serious nit to me is the question of why the Illuminati would want E--n P-x to be assassinated by a gargoyle rather than by a human operative. It's true that the gargoyle would be much stronger and more capable of breaching their target's security - but if you want to dispose of a statesman in such a way as to start a civil war in his country, a human assassin who can appear to be working for one of the factions in that home country strikes me as a far better candidate than a being that most humans look upon as merely a savage monster without any political leanings. (In fact, it would have been amusing if Goliath's attack had wound up having the reverse effect from what the Illuminati had wanted - bringing home the danger that the gargoyles supposedly pose so strongly that the competing factions hurriedly make peace with each other so as to unite against the "common foe".)

One nit that I forgot to bring up yesterday, regarding "Avalon Part Three" - Princess Katharine is able to easily handle Demona's laser cannon, even though she comes from a time period where they were still using bows and arrows and wouldn't even have encountered any conventional firearms before, let alone high-tech ones. Of course, it could be the old "Don't mess with the momma" syndrome at work.

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

That scene certainly suggested that it was sight of the sun that transformed Goliath and he wouldn't change until he saw it, and I'm pretty sure it was high in the sky, but I can't remember for sure. So, we're picking out problems in "To Serve Mankind?" Well, we've got a topic that'll cover us through the rest of the week... or month... or year...
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
"Note well an endlessness of little dogs, receding through progressive diminution to a revelation of the ultimate truth... Beyond the last visible dog." -Russell Hoban, The Mouse and His Child

TGC errors : I noticed a couple in "To Serve Mankind" that I thought I might as well bring up. At the end of act 1, there was a scene of Dr. Nexus opening a window to reveal the sun, which turned Goliath to stone. Now, I havn't seen the episode in a while, but if my memory serves me right, the sun was too high in the sky to have just risen. Of corse, that mistake was also in "Long Way to Morning", but it could have been caused by the new team not knowing anything about gargoyle biology.

The other one I'm sure everyone has noticed, but I'll bring it up anyway. Xanatos being portrayed as "Chair seven". As we all know, according to Mace Malone, Xanatos is a lower echelon(sp?) member. Obviously, the new team had never seen "Revelations".

"It's not who you kill, it's what kind of cereal you eat out of their skulls." - I don't remember

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Hey gang...some of you are already tired of my posts about this in other forums, but I'm trying to sell some of my Gargoyles cels and drawings from the show. I keep hesitating to put them on eBay because, well...eBay people can be so scary. (I'm one of them)
Check out the link here and know that none of the prices are final.
Thanks! (ps. the statue isn't for sale, just for show)

Stephanie Lostimolo

Todd> [I just sent off my review of all three parts of "Avalon" to Guandalug, though I don't know as yet when they'll be up.] What about.... NOW? Thanx for the reviews. You're working on them SO hard, it'd be unfair to let you wait for them to be released :)
Guandalug la'Fay - [guandalug@gargoyles-fans.org]

HARVESTER - The remark could be justified as Hudson remembering the event in modern times and subconsciously adding his own name to Goliath's speech; it's still a little jarring, but at least it isn't as bad as the Quarrymen constantly being out of prison and enjoying a reasonably good reputation only a few episodes after engaging in extremely violent attacks upon the gargoyles that were endangering the human population of New York through a "spillover" process or the public constantly forgetting, by the beginning of each episode, what they'd just learned about the true nature of gargoyles in the last.

I just sent off my review of all three parts of "Avalon" to Guandalug, though I don't know as yet when they'll be up. The piece on "Avalon Part One", incidentally, contains the only reference that I've made anywhere in my reviews (or am likely to make) regarding Gargoyles fanfic, when I talked about Greg's idea as to what happened to Mary and Finella after they left Avalon with the Grimorum. We know now that Greg had planned for them to be whisked forward in time to the 1970's by Brooklyn and the Phoenix Gate in "Timedancer". What surprised me, though, was that Christine Morgan, in her Gargoyles fanfics, came up with a similar idea, though here using the magic of Avalon actually sending them forward in time - and she came up with it before Greg made that revelation. I found that astonishing enough to mention it in the Tidbits section - it's almost as much a case of the Gargoyles Subconscious at work as so many people on the production team simultaneously realizing that Owen and Puck were the same person!

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Todd: I won't say anything further about the overall quality of the Goliath Chronicles. Considering what I've heard (and from what I gather, a production staff for whom Gargoyles was mostly foriegn was thrown together at the last minute), all that is understandable. I've seen the business end of how something gets made. There's a short list of things that can go right and an exponentially bigger list of things that can go wrong. BUT there is still one error that Bishansky pointed out to me that not even I, in good conscience, can pardon. Apparently, the episode "Dying of the Light" begins with a flashback to the 10th Century, specifically the fight with the Archmage in "Long Way to Morning" in which Hudson loses sight in his eye. I've never seen it myself, but I was told that Goliath, in that scene, calls Hudson by his name (that is, the one he gave himself in "Awakening, Part 3") despite the fact that it was over 1,000 years before he had it. At least, that was my understanding. I have the AIM Chat saved, I'll have to look it up. I just remember feeling the opposite of good after hearing about it.

And I've fallen behind in my reading, but once I catch up, I'll start giving you a few more of my thoughts on your reviews.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"And me I'm here to sing along, and I'm not concerned with right and wrongs, just asking questions that belong without an answer."

DPH - Well, I won't be hitting "The Green" for some time (I'm still working on "Avalon"), so you'll probably get your piece finished before I get mine done.

I might as well add that I won't be doing the Goliath Chronicles, though - I never taped them, and they're a little too dim in my memory, therefore, to do a review on. That even includes "The Journey". However, since "The Journey" will most likely be one of the first stories in the Gargoyles comic next year (indeed, I strongly suspect that it will be *the* first), when its adaptation comes out, I'll contribute a review for it.

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

You're forgetting what a joke airline security was before 9/11, and how prevalent bribery and corruption are in third world countries like Gautemala.

77 days left until Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 1 comes to DVD.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya, "The Princess Bride"

Now, I hope I can finish writing (then typing) up my summary for the Green before Todd gets around to doing a review of it. Thankfully, I left when I was 1/2 through writing the summary.

Interesting reviews, Todd.

Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Actually, Todd, that's a question I've had. How in heck did Hyena get past airport security in nyc? Unless she had a privately chartered plane to avoid mingling with the government, I don't see how she got past it.
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Since we were talking about some of the improbabilities in "Gargoyles" last week, here's another one that I thought of: the scene where Jackal books Hyena on a first-class flight to New York in "The Green".

I can't help but think that that would have been tricky, since:

1. Hyena's a notorious wanted felon; I find it very unlikely that they'd be that keen on letting her on board any airplane.

2. After "Upgrade", she's going to have more than a few problems getting past the metal detectors.

All that I can say is that I wouldn't want to be one of the airport security that has to deal with her....

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Been a while...


9th!! :)
If all the world's a stage, please help me find my script.

Thanks, Guandalug! I hope that everyone here gets an opportunity soon to look at the new reviews, particularly "Double Jeopardy", which contains what I think is one of my more provocative ideas - the notion that one of the big advantages of Thailog in the series was that he could play the "scheming mastermind adversary" just as well as Xanatos had, but had a more solid reason for pursuing the clan (Xanatos had nothing to gain by capturing or killing the gargoyles, and had even noticed by the end of "City of Stone" that there were solid advantages for him in letting them be - as in, they'd come in handy when he's got something like one of Demona's curses to break; while Thailog has a definite motive in going after Goliath, a determination to get rid of his fathers (both Goliath and Xanatos - probably even Sevarius as well) to prove his superiority over them). I'm particularly curious to see what Bishansky will have to say about that if/when he gets to read it.
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!


And with _SIX_ new reviews... written by Todd Jensen, of course. It's "Revelations" to "The Price" .... Go, read and applaud.

Guandalug la'Fay - [guandalug@gargoyles-fans.org]

Kris - [plekopleko@hotmail.com]

If you think there's good in everybody, you havn't met everybody.


Nice to see a 0 not an O show up in the verification code.

Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Im third* does a gargoyle won the superbowl dance*

Vertigo1 - [md2389@gmail.com]
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage (Mythbusters)