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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending November 7, 2005

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I know I promised this last week, but thanks to several things, such as autumn cleaning, work, and approxamatly twelve projects going on, I havn't had time to look up the info. However, a few minutes ago, I finally looked it up, and here it is: the sarcasm smiley


"Why is it that we rejoice at a birth and grieve at a funeral? It is because we are not the person involved" - Mark Twain

Kythera: Firstly, it's good to see you again. :) Also, I would have agreed with you given that the two options we are speaking of were either Goliath told the clan as soon as it happened or not at all. The best thing for all involved would have been for the clan to be aware of what happened when it happened. Honestly is the best policy.

But now things are different... there ARE other clans, and there are other places for a gargoyle to go. Goliath as current head of the clan has to account for these things, and as another poster said, since Elisa bears no grudge there's really no *reason* for anyone to know right now. But it is the kind of thing that is bound to come up in the future. So when I say "waiting for the right time", it means that it has to be relevant to a current situation or crisis the clan faces. And I can't conceive of one right now.

Kyra Sorrows - [ksmanning@mechavalon.com.alt]

Re changes to gargoyles: we could get nit picky about things here. How changes were made. The Change was made to "vows" because the ending technically didn't make sense. I can understand that one. One change that was made that did bother me was at the end of "the Gathering part 2" when Owen changes into Puck for the first time. The original transition was less of a surprise. He spins, comes out of the spin with at a distant camera view and stops-posing balanced on one foot with his head tilted back(I'm going from memory here folks). Then while he begins his "Heeeeere's puuck" he then zooomes towards the camera-and then the scene fades the black. In the later edit. Owen begins to spin, and the spin is extended,until we hear him begin the "heeeeere's " and only then do we see his quick zoom to the camera "Puck". and the scene doesn't fade to black, it just completely clips to black instantly. Now, I know this was done to make the transition from Owen to Puck more of a surprise. But like the battle axe and Mace question. The animation had been released and done. Why change it? I personally liked it better the way it was.

Does anyone else remember the episode airing this way? If so, what are your thoughts?


Jurgan: I go by my father's example. What George Lucas is doing with the Original Trilogy would be like someone deciding that the Mona Lisa was out of style, and going back and repainting her so her clothing and hairstyle are more "modern." Quite frankly, the way he's always tampering with his movies just goes to show what a pathetic and insecure man George Lucas really is. So I say, leave the Gargoyles episodes the way they are.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]

Ewen : Welcome, and don't worry about that, you're definatly in the right place. Unfourtunatly, I don't know the answer to your question.
"Isn't it satisfying to watch your child grow up from a little tiny acorn into a complete nut?" - George Pickard

Hello, I'm a first time poster (that sounds strange) so I am sorry if this is posted in completely the wrong place!

I live in the UK - to be precise, I live in Forres in the North East of Scotland where some of the Gargoyles story supposedly takes place. I have been struggling to find out if there are any plans to release the series on DVD over here but have had no luck thus far. I loved the series when it was first released in my youth and enjoyed it even more when I watched the repeats of the cartoon on toon disney. I'd love to add Gargoyles to my collection and thought somebody on a fansite or forum might have a better idea.

If anybody has an idea whether its going to be available on Region 2 (or if it already is) then any help would be awesome. I appoligise once more if this is the wrong place to ask. Thanks!

Ewen - [ewenwatson@hotmail.com]

I don't think that they should go back and make changes; that strikes me as cheating. I'd prefer to keep those episodes the way that they were.

While in general, Hakon's mace would have been better than the battle-axe, at least we wound up getting one of Wolf's best lines out of it, when he says "Tonight is battle-axe night". I don't think that "Tonight is mace night" would have has as good a rhythm to it.

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Jurgen> yeah, Hakon's Mace is probably the biggest change i'd want to see. i mean, to give that weopon weight, to give it a mythology would've been awesome. almost like the One Ring in LOTR, almost make it a character, even if Hakon was destroyed or whatnot, the Mace represents ALL the massacres of gargoyle clans, and thats something the series could've really developed more, all the incidences of gargoyles clan destruction.
i think even Greg W said that the Mace was the one thing he'd change.
another major change i wish would've happened, is i kinda feel Boidekka should've remained in NYC after Oberon brought her there in The Gathering, that way she could've reunited with Bronx and joined the Manhattan Clan.
other cool things you could add would be to see more gargoyles period. Make a scene or two getting to know some of the Wyvern gargs more personally before their deaths in the Massacre. i know the Coldtrio represented that, but i mean some gargs thats REALLY died, and maybe we'd see them again in Hakon's stone Clan in "Shadows of the Past"
the Wyvern, Moray and Avalon Clans suffer from a lack of visable female gargoyles. and every Clan suffered from a lack of children gargoyles, certaintly Ishimura had some 10-year old gargs at that point, why didn't we see them?
finally, i felt the series really left an open thread with the Sun Amulet, Jade and Turquesa should've come back and picked that up from NY of their way back to Guatamala.
other then that...

matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"Do not despise the day of small beginnings." -Zechariah 4:10

Wooo, commenting late...

Kyra> I think suggesting that that would "break the clan up" isn't giving much credit to the bonds of a gargoyle clan. I'm certain the rest of the clan would have been very upset, naturally, but I doubt they would actually OUST Broadway: keep in mind how close the trio are. Goliath already knows what's going on. And Hudson is experienced enough to know that great wisdom often comes at the price of great mistakes. Also, at that point in time, they're all each other had in modern Manhattan; they didn't yet know there were other clans around the world. True, this was no minor blunder, but I don't think it had the potential to leave Broadway in exile from the clan, either.

Kythera of Anevern - [kythera(at)gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"

Not to mention immediately afterwards, he went apeshit at Elisa for talking them into abandoning the castle.

And as Todd was mentioning making small changes to episodes, here's something I've wondered about: Supposing budgeting weren't an issue (so you know right off the bat that this is entirely hypothetical), would anyone want Greg and crew to be able to go back and make minor changes to the Gargoyles episodes, a la George Lucas and the Star Wars Special Edition? The biggest example I can think of would be going back to Shadows of the Past and Vendettas and turning Hakon's axe into a mace. Also, maybe they could add more references to continuity since they know what order the episodes will be in- f'rinstance, in The Cage Brooklyn acts like a leader but doesn't acknowledge it, because they couldn't be sure it would air after Upgrade. There are other sort of missed opportunities like that which might be addressed, but I can't think of any other off the top of my head. Personally, though, I'm of the opinion that it would be wrong to do such a project, because I think the mistakes and imperfections of the time give the show charm, but would anyone in here like it if they did that? And, since that question is too simple to generate much discussion, supposing that they were going to go back and edit the episodes, maybe for the DVD release, what changes would you like to see?

Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]

Matt: The thing that really made "Enter MacBeth" memorable for me was Goliath going apeshit. I mean, compared to the rest of the first season, he really cut loose: Tearing down walls, ripping through steel doors like tissue paper; and I think this is one of the few times he really used a weapon. I mean, he has used them other times, in episodes like "Deadly Force" and "Mark of the Panther," but here he was actually dueling with someone. Broke MacBeth's sword, too. And inadvertantly started a fire. Damn, that third act was just loaded with crazy goodness.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Many years ago, I wanted to be a journalist. Having met many journalists..... I'm happy with my choice." -Musician Mike Rutherford, when asked what he might be doing were he not making music.

matt:> FYI, those two "Bronx" scenes you mentioned happen to be in Demona Taina's collection of Gargoyles pans. :-)


Leo - [<- Pimping Demona Taina's pan collection]

Dear Patrick, Jen and everybody:

I saw on the Gathering website that the con will be held in Valencia, CA, which is about ten or twenty miles north of Burbank. I'm VERY allergic to smog and environmental pollutants, and I was wondering if Valencia has a similar problem as L.A., or if it's more in a desert/mountainous area with cleaner air?

Thanks a lot.

Noel Leas - [nleas@hotmail.com]
Noel Leas

speaking of Bronx, just watched Enter Macbeth last night and that has my two favorite Bronx moments:
-when hes running down the streets of New York looking for help. hilarious.
-when he rams into Brook and Lex's cage to free them.
i think Enter Macbeth is as close as we get to a Bronx episode in Season One.

matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"Do not despise the day of small beginnings." -Zechariah 4:10

An odd little creativity demon that I've been having for a while. You may remember the scene near the opening of "Metamorphosis", where the gargoyles awake at the clock tower and we see some pigeons flying off hurriedly into the night. I've sometimes thought that it would have been amusing to see Bronx rushing up to the railing and barking at those same pigeons savagely as they fly away, as if driving them out of the clock tower (though I certainly don't think that they should doctor the upcoming DVD to include that).
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

JJ> Couldn't have said it better meself.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Wingless: I would have to agree with what Kyra said. But let's not also forget that this was still very early on in the clan's awakening in the 20th Century. As we saw in "Thrill of the Hunt," they were still trying to acclimatize themselves to an overwhelming amount of technological change. What Broadway did could be chalked up more to a tenth-century gargoyle still being somewhat ignorant to the ways of the modern world.

Let's not also forget that owning up to what he did at the end of "Deadly Force" took a lot of guts, guts that most humans don't even possess. So ultimately, if the clan were to find out about it, I don't think it would create any rifts. Especially not since Elisa, the one who suffered the most, doesn't bear Broadway any ill will.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Did you know animals are hairy?" -David Byrne.

Time I started making this countdown a daily habit.

33 days left until Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 1 comes to DVD.

"In Soviet Russia, television watches YOU." - Yakov Smirnoff

Wingless: My personal take on it is that Goliath is waiting for the right time. Of course, nothing's official until Greg Weisman says so, but I think Goliath is good enough of a leader to know that talking about something like that is likely to break the clan up over something that really wasn't Broadway's fault.
Kyra Sorrows - [ksmanning@mechavalon.com.alt]

Region Codes>> We have different region codes so that DVD producers can release DVDs in the various regions at different times, AFAIK. One of those irritating, unnecessary shakles placed on consumers so that business can make more money. Since the codes add no value but increase revenues, I consider this a bug in capitalism.

Remember, folks, prices in free markets are only a heuristic for the value of things. They are not the final arbiter.

:gets off soapbox:

JJ Gregarius
Like the man said, "There are no problems; only solutions!"

Battle Beast: it means "when one loves, you don't count"
Denis - [d.deplaen@lft.be]
Belgian Muggle Death Eater

Denis> Say what?
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

I got a program for my computer for £21 to make it region-free. Bargain, really: last year because the exchange rate meant you could get imported DVDs for much less than domestic ones so it ended up being great. Sadly, the exchange rate isn't quite as sexy these days, but it's still not too bad.
It used to be said there were two kinds of chairs to go with two kinds of Ministers: one sort that folds up instantly, the other sort goes round and round in circles.

DVD Regions> The first season was released only in Zone 1, and never made it to zone 2. however, my DVD player (Pioneer DV-470) is multizone, and I was able to read it in perfect condition.
one downside is that import DVD are very high, at least 50% higher than the price in the us. To make it simplier, I calculate that the price in dollars in euros.
But, as we say in French; "quand on aime, on compte pas!"

Denis - [d.deplaen@lft.be]
Belgian Muggle Death Eater

Thanks to the way the current distribution system works, very few DVDs are formatted for all regions. If you live in the UK and want to play DVDs from North America (or vice-versa) the easiest solution is to purchase a region-free DVD player. Then you can watch DVDs from anywhere in the world and never worry about the six regions ever again.

34 days left until Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 1 comes to DVD.

"Look, you're British, so scale it down a bit." - Eddie Izzard

GREG WEISMAN, IF YOU ARE READING THIS...> Some one asked you if the DVD will be released in "Region 2." That means the United Kingdom. (North America Is Regiion 1). Different regions won't work on other region DVD players. I don't know why we can't ALL have ONE DVD, but someone somewhere said we all need different DVDs. Go figure.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

I Was thinking about Deadly Force the other night. We're aware Goliath knows about Broadway having shot Elisa. I don't know if Greg has ever been asked this, but does the rest of the clan know about this? Do you think this was something Goliath would feel the rest of the clan should know about? Maybe Goliath have Broadway tell the rest of the clan as one of the ways to redeem himself. Or perhaps do you think Goliath might feel this information might be something that would hurt Broadway's place within the clan if they knew? As far as the rest of the clan knows, Dracon was responsible.

I'd like your thoughts.


i like Greg's recent response to the question about "Future Tense" i've always loved the moments when you see Gargoyle Culture so different from human culture. neat stuff.
matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"The more gnostic I got the more agnostic I became..." -Myself, when asked about my religion or lack thereof

MGC is updated, please go check out the new topic, and cast your vote for your favorites in the Horror Movies topic. :)
kess - [< updated! New topic, and voting!]

They recently showed "Avalon" on Jetix and I'm really amazed at how well that piece of storytelling holds up. A perfectly set story with a reasonable antagonist and a satisfying ending. It should be in textbooks.
Kyra Sorrows - [ksmanning@mechavalon.com.alt]

Spread the Word>> For me, it helps that one forum that I frequent, which used to have several Gargoyles fans, now has a prominent member who thinks that it is overrated Disney dreck. Almost feel like I have to assert myself over her feelings to say anything.

She seems to have a thing about Disney. Satan is involved, I gather.

JJ Gregarius
Like the man said, "There are no problems; only solutions!"

And one new admin for AMGC.

November topic is up, so check it out.


Aaron - [amgc_art@yahoo.com]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there also an episode of Real Ghostbusters that gave a tip of the hat to "Citizen Kane"? Which was something else Gargoyles did, though I think that Gargoyles might have been referencing the original source. Or perhaps both. Xanatos had an estate, and "Charlie Kane" had an estate, and both also had almost everything money could buy.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]

20 more questions left in the backlog in Ask Greg from 2003.
Whatever happenned to simplicity.

Todd: Re Ghostbusters. They just aired the episode with Sir Breuse. It centered around Peter going out on a date-but instead of going out somewhere fun, his date wants to go to the cloisters to see an exhibit of tapestries. There, She runs into a an acquaintance who's running the exhibit and makes Peter extremely jealous. The friend has a surprise, The Genvieve tapestry which features a figure that looks just like Peter's date. Her presence there, and a full moon outside bring the figures in the tapestry to life-including Sir Breuse.

I'll leave things there. The Casey Jones episode also aired. Sadly, with Halloweeen gone, they've pulled the show off. *sigh*. Back to reruns of cheesy Canadian cartoons.
C'mon sony, there's a show dying for a DVD release!


DEMONSKRYE - That's a good point. So far, I've only done one piece of "spread the good word", on a couple of Arthurian mailing lists that I've subscribed to. I focused on the presence of "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" and "Avalon" in the upcoming DVD (and said a few things in praise of how "Lighthouse" had handled the Arthurian elements.

This is something that I forgot about just now in relation to Wingless's post concerning "The Real Ghostbusters" and "Gargoyles", but I remembered an episode of "The Real Ghostbusters" where the Ghostbusters were helping a good-guy vampire (he only drinks artificial blood) who was being pursued by a ruthless vampire-hunter named Van Heldun, one of a long line of vampire-hunters in his family (who were the original for Van Helsing in Stoker's "Dracula"). In some ways, the portrait of the Van Helduns felt like a foreshadowing of the Canmores (a family of monster-hunters who are more monstrous than the "monsters" that they hunt). Van Heldun even adopted the tactics of duping the local villagers into believing that the vampire was after them, just like the Canmores duping the New Yorkers into believing that Goliath and his clan were evil monsters.

The show also did an episode set in the Cloisters (which focused in "Temptation", remember), involving an evil knight named Sir Breuse sans Pitie that had been imprisoned in a tapestry by Merlin coming free one night and taking over the Cloisters as his new home; Breuse, by the way, was an actual villainous knight in Sir Thomas Malory. And there were several other episodes involving "real" mythical figures (Valkyries, a banshee, barrow-wights, the Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Marduk and Tiamat, Casey Jones, the Headless Horseman of Sleepy Hollow, the Fates) - much like "Gargoyles". (Of course, Michael Reaves was one of the writers on that show as well as on "Gargoyles".)

Incidentally, I watched my tape of "Eye of the Beholder" today. (Though next time that I do that for Halloween, it'll be on the DVD.)

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Guess I'm tenth.

I wanted to add a little to what Greg Weisman said last week about spreading the word. If you decide to post about the DVD release on non-Gargoyles boards, be considerate. There is a definite line between giving helpful information and just spamming. Don't just run around hitting every board you can find with the same message. Start with the boards you already frequent, where people will already know that you aren't spreading spam. Put the post in the most appropriate forum. If at all possible, try to tie it in with the subject of the boards, if it isn't too much of a stretch. Think why the people who read this board in particular will enjoy Gargoyles.

I'm sure I don't really need to say this to the people here, as you're all generally very polite and considerate. But just in case.

Now I just need to write my Amazon review....


IRC Goliath - [goliath1 [at] pacbell [dot] net]
"Of course there's always MY way."


Happy Halloween Everyone!!!

Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"Do not despise the day of small beginnings." -Zechariah 4:10

I knew something wasn't right when I clicked "Add Your Chat."



Happy Halloween, everyone!

I suspect that the ghosts of Hakon and the Captain probably did scare prospective occupiers away. And Castle Wyvern might have been in an out-of-the-way area, not of any particular strategic importance. At any rate, I doubt that anybody came there or stayed long until Xanatos went there in 1994. (The mere fact that Goliath and his clan roosted there in peace without any damage for the full thousand years is indication enough of that.)

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

"Isn't it satisfying to watch your child grow up from a little tiny acorn into a complete nut?" - George Pickard

It's late at night so I may not be thinking clearly, but here's a question: Do we know what happened to Castle Wyvern after Katharine and the Magus left it? Obviously it survived physically, but was it inhabited? I find it hard to imagine a fully functional castle remaining completely abandoned for a thousand years. If it wasn't reclaimed by nobility, I'd guess it'd become a hideout for criminals, a refuge for homeless people, something like that?

Owen mentions that the locals consider it haunted. Is that because of the tragedy in 994? The ghosts of Hakon and the captain in the caves? Or has something else happened there that we don't know about?

Again, it's pretty late at night and my brain is kind of addled, so maybe this has a really obvious answer and I'm just not thinking of it. If so, please forgive my lack of lucidity ;)

Kaylle - [kaylle at ladyavalon dot com]

Fourth! Woohoo, I'm moving up in the list ;)
Kaylle - [kaylle at ladyavalon dot com]

NUMBER 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shara - [jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]

Happy Halloweeennnnn!! 2nd
Demona May - [realdemona@yahoo.com]
the Insane One Is Alive and Still Kicking!

3 weeks in a row-First.
*pokes room* what's wrong with you peoples^_^