MATT> That is what I'd call a perfect example of why actors need writers.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 10:32:04 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Darren McGavin> ya know, i always feel kinda at peace when someone his age dies. i mean, i know its probably sad for the family and all, but in this weird way i can't explain i feel happy for him. he lived a long good life it seems, its hard to be sad about that. RIP "DD".

Alex Garg> i don't think you were THAT off subject. i mean what you were talking about was related to the Eyrie Building, which is obviously Gargoyles related. and besides, i found your comments to be interesting and fun. i understand if you like to lurk, but i think your comments are great.

Marina Sirtis> whenever i think about her i get this flashback in my head of myself at 12 years old watching the old VHS "Gargoyles: Awakening" movie and hearing her talk in the prologue saying something like, "Demona is the bad gargoyle. She is the evil one." it always made me laugh. don't know why, maybe cuz i find calling people evil kinda ridiculous anyway, but when you are talking about a cartoon character its even funnier.
i don't agree with Marina though. i think as the show went on Demona seemed less and less evil... but THAT is a topic for another week...
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer." - Douglas Adams
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 10:30:20 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

*raises a pintglass towards the ceiling*

Moment of silence for Darren McGavin, known to most Gargoyles fans as the voice of Dominic Dracon in the episode "The Silver Falcon," and known to people in general (though hopefully most of them are Gargoyles fans as well) as the Old Man from "A Christmas Story."
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"You look like a deranged Easter Bunny!" -The Old Man, aka Darren McGavin (1922 - 2006).
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 10:19:30 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

I hope you didn't see her at night Siren :lol:
starlioness
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 9:36:10 pm EST from 70.58.67.109

Hit send too soon.

And no, I did not fanboy gush all over her. Was never really a big Trek fan, and never cared about Troi. Way, way, way too nice a character. But, Marina made a good impression on me. I talked to her like she was a normal human being, I don't really get starstruck. Celebrities are people just like any of us. But yeah, had her sign some Demona stuff, and we chatted for a good five minutes, before the line started getting too long behind me. She has a very sharp, sarcastic, British sense of humor. Just, don't go expecting her to be Councilor Troi.

She and I got along pretty well ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 9:16:16 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Bye, guys.

Talk to ya later.
kingcobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
King Cobra3
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 9:11:15 pm EST from 209.239.132.94

Yeah, I was at MegaCon yesterday, met Marina. It went very well.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 9:10:32 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Siren> How cool it is that you met Ms. Sirtis. :-)

I'm almost jealous. Hehe.
kingcobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
King Cobra3
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 8:26:58 pm EST from 209.239.132.94

I met Marina Sirtis today. She was very nice, kinda quiet though. I of course gushed like a fangirl how I really loved how she brought the character to life and she did a fantastic job. She said that she's more like Demona then Troi. I told her not to advertise that, lol. I took a picture with her and will post later. I'm tired now. Long day, a lot of walking and carrying a heavy backpack FULL of con goods....I think I spent $300 today...at least nearly that amount *faints*
Siren
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 8:07:17 pm EST from 65.33.112.205

Brooklyn X>> I guarantee it is.

I think the primary adjustment after the 1945 accident (judged to be pilot error), however, was to redirect flight patterns away from Manhattan. In the 1945 incident, the pilot was lost in fog and asked to be redirected, but any course adjustments were a risk due to his, as my grandfather would say, temporary misplacement (reportedly the pilot's last [recorded] words were, "I can't see the top of the Empire State Building."). Also, though I haven't looked at a New York sectional map, I'm almost certain most of the area falls under instrument flight rules.

I did my flight training in the D.C. area, so I'm more familiar with that airspace than NYC's. I haven't looked at a New York sectional map circa 1994 to know what the restrictions would have been then, which I'm certain have been tightened since. I'm just coming at this with what I know generally of airspace rules and regulations; and dense city centers like New York, Chicago and L.A. have pretty much been no-fly zones for years, but for approaches and departures.

I'm not saying Xanatos would have had an easy time building the Eyrie, but local ordinances probably posed a greater threat to the project than the FAA, given that he was building this in an established and well-known flight-hazard area than, say, off the main departure path of an airport in the Midwest.

Anyway, I've cluttered up the board this week and last far more than my inner lurker is comfortable with. I will be more than happy to continue this conversation via e-mail, but I'm sure people are wanting to get back to talking about Gargoyles.
Alex Garg - [fiatnox@gmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 8:06:44 pm EST from 216.145.68.246

Alex Garg - Actually, I believe the airspace over NYC and Manhattan is probably restricted to an extent. Mainly because in 1945, a B-25 hit the Empire State Building between the 79th and 80th floors.
BrooklynX
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 7:22:19 pm EST from 63.205.197.37

Patrick>> It's not a mandate, it's an intense level of scrutiny. From the FCC's site - http://www.fcc.gov/mb/policy/dtv/; and the FAA - http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIR/air0601.html
Alex Garg
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 6:44:30 pm EST from 216.145.68.246

Elevators> keep in mind that a significant part of the building does not need many elevators. the top fifth or quarter of the building seems to be only used by Xanatos, his family and possibly some high ranking people. and they seem to come in by helicopter most the time anyway. those two (or three?) elevators in the Castle's Great Hall/lobby are probably the only elevators that go that high, and they probably go down through the Atrium back heliport and all the way down to the office levels. The office levels don't seem much taller than the WTC was, so the same elevator solutions were probably used there.

Derek> i think Derek is gonna be perpetually pissed off... its his nature. i mean, do we ever see him NOT angry in an episode? he'll bitch and moan about the gargs being back in the castle and Goliath and Elisa's relationship, but i doubt there will ever be too much conflict. he'll remain angry at Xanatos though, no doubt there, but he'll remain allies to Goliath and the Clan i think.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer." - Douglas Adams
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 6:31:40 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Todd Jensen> ""Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!"

*eyebrow*

Interesting quote, there.

As far as Derek goes, I personally see him as being protective but not overly so over Elisa being with Goliath.
kingcobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
King Cobra3
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 6:25:45 pm EST from 209.239.132.128

I can just see Derek beginning to indignantly comment about his sister going out with a "bat-winged freak", and then he thinks that maybe he'd better rephrase that description of Goliath slightly so that it won't sound so much like something that could equally apply to him....
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 6:16:16 pm EST from 4.244.214.226

Alex > I don't think the government would make an airspace exception. I'm basing that news articles I read a few years back about a tower that was being proposed in Chicago. The proposed height to the tip of its spire was 1,999 feet above ground level, keeping it just under the federally mandated ceiling of 2,000 feet above ground level.

As for the elevators, the problem is not in powering them. It's in having enough of them to efficiently move people to the upper floors. A person had to ride 3 sets of elevators to reach the top of the WTC towers. For a building a mile high, you might be talking about 12 sets of stacked express elevators... and a total transit time from top to bottom of longer than the subway ride to work. And in the event of calamity, it'd be impossible to evacuate a mile-high building in any reasonable length of time... even if the average person had the endurance to descend 500 flights of stairs.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"It's four walls of madness in this house of cards." - Elton John / Bernie Taupin
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 6:15:00 pm EST from 67.38.248.193

kjay> Probably. If the animal was sick, the gargoyle would just heal come sunrise. So I don't think it's a problem
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 6:14:08 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

As I was cooking I was thinking, can Gargoyles eat Raw meat? I mean they do have pronounced canines. But there are some animals that have canines but are more herbovores than carnovores (like pandas). Any thoughts? Just wondering
kjay - [tigonesskay@yahoo.com]
just wondering
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 6:09:30 pm EST from 69.112.127.60

And, not meaning to spam the comment room, but with regards to the elevator problem: Maybe Xanatos realized Frank Lloyd Wright's suggestion for The Illinois that there be nuclear-powered elevators.

The man had a forcefield and gun turrets in the building, why not a little uranium?
Alex Garg
Dorkgasmic!
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 6:08:16 pm EST from 216.145.68.246

Patrick>> I never intended to make the argument that those later heights were feasible, just the result of some basic calculations.

Right now the tallest building that's coming close to fruition (est. 2-3 years) is the Burj Dubai, coming in at an estimated 2,600 ft. from base to top.

Regarding the FAA/airspace problem, my guess is that Xanatos would just "buy" the airspace from the government in the same way that telecommunications companies "buy" space on the electromagnetic spectrum for broadcasting, cell phones and the like; though, to my knowledge, this doesn't happen much if at all.

Tall buildings, or really any structure over a few hundred feet, get noted on flight charts and pilots are expected to avoid them.

Also, not all airspace gets neatly controlled by the FAA at 2,000 ft. A breakdown of airspace classes is here: http://www.asy.faa.gov/safety_products/airspaceclass.htm

Although I haven't seen a flight chart for the New York area either pre- or post-9/11, in which that might very well be the case.
Alex Garg
Dorkgasmic!
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 6:01:38 pm EST from 216.145.68.246

Greg B.> Has Greg W. ever mentioned just how much of a problem Derek would be in the G/E relationship?

*should really read the archives for that answer, but for some reason keeps getting "timed out" everytime he tries to get in there."

Lousy computer.
kingcobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
King Cobra3
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 5:50:40 pm EST from 209.239.132.128

HoE> Yeah, I'm sure that will be a no brainer. Greg has also mentioned that he sees Derek having a problem with Goliath and Elisa's relationship.

I don't see the Mutates ever being enemies of the Manhattan Clan, but with them living with Xanatos again, and I'm sure David remaining unapologetic about what he did to the Mutates, I doubt the Mutates, Derek in particular are going to be Goliath's biggest fans.

Hey, how many people have great relationships with their in-laws anyway ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 5:46:18 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

HoE> Very good observations, dude. Would be interesting to read.

*wonders what the deal is with the little codes he has to enter on every response.*
kingcobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
King Cobra3
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 5:35:46 pm EST from 209.239.132.128

*pokes his head in, sees what everyone is talking about, and decides to lurk until there's a topic that he can join in with relevance... or until he has to go to work. Whichever comes first.*
kingcobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
King Cobra3
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 5:33:26 pm EST from 209.239.132.128

Greg B: Okee-dokee.

This never came up in the Goliath Chronicles, since Talon only appeared in one episode, and I wouldn't really count that anyway, since his appearance didn't have much significance for the episode overall. And besides, there are many examples of the writers not paying attention to the way characters developed over the first 66 episodes.

Anyway, one of the things that I'm wondering if the comic will explore is an episode that features the Mutates in some significant way. Basically, I'm wondering how they'd react when they found that the gargoyles were living back at the Eyrie Building. I know that the gargoyles really don't seem to have much of a choice. And even though Xanatos is probably sincere when he said that the feud between him and the gargoyles is over, Greg said that there's little else about the man that's drastically changed. And I think the Mutates have more of a reason to hate Xanatos than the gargoyles do. So a story focusing on the Mutates, that takes place after the events of "Hunter's Moon," might have potential.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"We do whatever we want to whomever we want... at all times." -Ignignokt the Mooninite.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 5:31:11 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

I don't think anything over a mile high is reasonable for the height of the Eyrie Building. The tallest skyscraper anyone's even thought about building is on the order of 2,755 feet. See this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Tower_%28Hong_Kong%29

Elevator technology has simply not gotten to the point where we can think about building habitable structures a mile high. So to me the 2,154 feet number seems the most reasonable, though I would have figured the Eyrie to not be over 2,000 feet above ground level. And there's a simple reason for that. That's the elevation at which FAA controlled airspace begins.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"It's four walls of madness in this house of cards." - Elton John / Bernie Taupin
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 5:06:08 pm EST from 67.38.248.193

HoE> By all means, say what you're going to say now. Sure the room willbe reset, but people will always check it.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 4:48:13 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Harvester/Clouds>> See, even fog is technically a cloud that just has no ceiling (i.e., it's on the ground).

What are typically considered low-level clouds - the only possible clouds that the castle could conceivably rise above while atop the Eyrie - typically form below 7,000 feet; they can be a few score feet high or hundreds of feet high, and their bases can be a few hundred feet in altitude or several thousand.

In Awakening II, when Xanatos takes his helicopter up to Wyvern we see him punch through one layer of clouds and stay below another - it is not at all uncommon for low-level clouds to by accompanied by other levels; and other than some forms of cumulus clouds, almost to be expected.

Given that the panoramics of Manhattan in this scene showed, and in deed the awakening of the gargoyles was accompanied by, dark clouds and rain, it is likely that the lower level of clouds were either stratus or nimbostratus, both of which can often form low enough over cities to mask the upper skyline and not have a great vertical reach.

I think it's safe to say that any of the possible heights I gave for Wyvern would satisfy the spell's requirements, though more certainly the two on the upper-end (if your building's over a mile high, it's going to be above the clouds).
Alex Garg
Dorkgasmic!
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 4:45:22 pm EST from 216.145.68.246

Obed, HoEyes> yeah, i know. the show would've been boring if they had awakened on a mountaintop, i'm just saying that within the Gargoyles Universe, it would've been easier for Xanatos probably.
though i can't help but think that waking up on a mountiantop would've been less shocking for the Clan.

HofEyes> good points about Xanatos knowing about Puck/Owen and Demona. i doubt without them he would've taken the risk that the Magus' story might've just been a story...

and with Alex Garg's calculations, i think we can safely say that Macbeth WAS speaking literally when he said the Eyrie was "the world's tallest building".

different topic> City of Stone. did anyone else notice how often Lexington was being drawn with typical gargoyle wings in these eps? right at the beginning when Goliath and the trio are approaching the hostage scene, all four of them clearly have flapping wings. but the worst is when Demona is talking to Macbeth while the Clan, Xanatos and the Steel Clan are out gassing th city and at one point (where you are watching them from below) you can easily see that Lex has Brooklyn-like wings. its funny cuz its obviously Lex, the coloring is dead on.
thank god for the DVD. i pause so much its getting obsessive-compulsive for me. tapes don't pause too well, the DVD looks great. i particularly like pausing to get a better look at barely seen gargoyles in Awakenings, City of Stone and Avalon.
and what is with Goliath's momentary ankle bracelet in CoS? why would th animators put that there? weird.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer." - Douglas Adams
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 4:43:59 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

o.O...

matt: it probably would have been easier for xanatos to place the castle on a high mountaintop...but somehow i just don't think doing things because they are easier is xanatos' style. plus i'm sure he would have wanted the gargoyles to awaken in the city, where he could keep an eye on them and where they would be most useful as his personal guards. also, it's pretty obvious the show was to take place in modern new york, so they would have to awaken there in manhattan. it probably would make a lot more sense to break the spell by putting the castle on a high mountaintop...actually now that i think about it, i don't know if that would have been any more easier. I'm sure transporting an entire castle and rebuilding it on a mountain high enough to be above clouds must certainly present its own engineering problems. in any case, it would have been a different show if it had happened that way.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 4:29:20 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

The spell was designed to end when the "castle rose above the clouds." What is the minimum height above sea level where water vapor can condense to form clouds? Of course, we'd have to take into account Manhattan's mean temperature for most of the year and average humidity. Anyway, the Eyrie Building just has to be tall enough to get the castle above that minimum height. But as Macbeth said, it is the world's tallest building, so it has to be at least 1,438 feet (thanks for the measurements, Patrick).

matt: If he'd done that, there would be no show. Besides, we have no idea what the initial meeting between him and Demona was like. Between that, and finding out that his assistant is really a shapeshifting being of pure magic, there probably was a certain degree of curiosity involved in initiating the project.

Greg B: Show me someone who considers who considers the other twelve Goliath Chronicles to be canon, and I'll kidnap them for $200, de-program them for $250, and kill them for $500. Shop around, you can't beat that price. Short of starting a discussion bringing up all the shortcomings of TGC, I would like to say that they have made me think of something that might have relevance to the comic. But the week is waning, and there's so much going on already, so I'll save it for tomorrow.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"We do whatever we want to whomever we want... at all times." -Ignignokt the Mooninite.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 4:12:35 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

Leo, LOL.... with all the problems this building has, i think thats the one i'm least worried about. funny though!

you could say that with that whole glass section lit up so pretty you wouldn't need a little flashing red light...

"May I say one last time, Mr. Xanatos, that the cost of this venture will be astronomical..."
boy he wasn't kidding. i'm beginning to be amazed that the Eyrie building didn't bankrupt him... in fact, he was probably richer than a few more countries before building it than after...

and all that money cuz he "was curious" and needed some goons to steal a few floppy disks? i dunno...
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer." - Douglas Adams
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 4:05:40 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

And this brings up another thing I noticed. Why aen't there any flashing red areial warning lights on the castle?
Leo
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 3:59:38 pm EST from 68.107.154.71

Alex Garg:> One of the things I like about that "full circle" background is that the towers are for the most part in their proper offset orientation (as shown here: http://www.emporis.com/files/transfer/6/2002/07/155927.jpg ) A lot of times the artists just drew the WTC towers side by side (In this one, http://members.aol.com/bellegarg3/Backgrounds/Manhattan_Skyline.jpg they're even reversed, and the Woolworth building should be to the left of the complex)


Anyway... Here are some screenshots that show the building's height in relation to other landmark buildings.

http://members.aol.com/bellegarg3/Backgrounds/Empire_Eyrie_Chrysler.jpg
http://members.aol.com/bellegarg3/Backgrounds/Sunset_Over_Manhattan.jpg
http://members.aol.com/bellegarg3/Pans/Manhattan_Skyline01.jpg
Leo
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 3:53:27 pm EST from 68.107.154.71

Alex Garg> wow... ummm, wow... thanks for all that. very interesting. and that link you provided had me laughing out loud.

Leo/Demona Taina> thanks for providing the pics, very helpful.

now that we have a reasonably good look at an estimate of the possible height of the Eyrie, do we have a meteorologist in the Room? i want to know how low clouds are. even in the "wake up" scene in Awakenings, some clouds are still higher than the top of the castle, but some are certainly below it too. and, if i remember correctly, we also get a great view on our very first view of the Eyrie from far back (seems we are over the Bay) in Awakenings right before we see Xanatos in his 'copter ascending, and in that view the top of the building isn't visable cuz its above the clouds.

another thing i wonder: is the Atrium in that area below the castle with the slanted glass? i think it is, but not sure.

another thing: i remember Greg saying that Xanatos was forced to "fill in" the rookery caves and other cracks below the Castle for stability. the guy in Alex Garg's link clearly wasn't aware of this. it would help stability alot, but it would add a lot of weight too. clearly at least some of the cliff was moved with the castle though. if nothing else, "Shadows of the Past" showed that.

below the glass levels (where i presume the Atrium is) is where the many open spaces are i was refering to. i agree that the area directly below the front of the castle is "glassed" over. but below that, it seems to be mostly support columns.

good points: elevators. you probably do have to switch elevators in the Atrium. this makes sense for several reasons. engineering reasons, security reasons (it seems the castle was likely only accessible by certain people for good reason), and from story details, particularly "The Gathering" when Alex's family waits for him in the Atrium by all the elevators.

wow, amazing how a simple comment from myself could bloom into this "geek-gasm" LOL. more than ever, i'm thinking i was right in saying it would've been easier for Xanatos to just move the Castle to a sufficiently high mountaintop...
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer." - Douglas Adams
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 3:49:23 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Eyrie Building Technical Stuff>> From the person who brought you the affordability of Elisa's apartment comes, "How tall is that building Xanatos has got?"

The screencaps Patrick and Demona Taina/Leo have provided are good, but the buildings surrounding them are mostly fictional constructs provided to give their scenes depth. For a frame of reference, we need a screencap that shows the Eyrie Building in relation to some well-known structure.

The "Full_Circle" screencap Leo just posted is good, but everything looks smudged together, and there are no base references.

I don't have a site upon which I can host a screencap, so I ask you to turn with me to Chapter XIII in your Gargoyles Episode Handbook and the section where Owen is chasing after Dracon who has just made off with Xanatos' guns at the docks.

Notice the backdrop: The Twin Towers AND the Eyrie Building with a clear line of sight to their tops and bases.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a frame of reference.

Almost.

First part: Where *is* this scene taking place?

Well, unfortunately there wasn't really a place where you could get both the degree of separation between the two towers to distinguish them *and* mid/uptown Manhattan on your right. Manhattan Island runs north-northeast using Battery Park as the starting point, and the Twin Towers were constructed as such so Tower One (North Tower) was due north of Tower Two (South Tower). In order to get any discernable angle of separation between the two towers, you would have to be either to the west, placing mid/uptown Manhattan to your left, or east, placing mid/uptown Manhattan behind you; but not south. Just doesn't work.

What are we to do?

We invoke artistic license (this being a cartoon and all) in favor of keeping mid/uptown Manhattan on our right and ignore the tower on the left (North Tower).

There exists to the south of Battery Park and past Governors Island a very large port (Google Earth tells me this is Buttermilk Channel) where there is a pretty clear line of sight from the end of a dock (where Owen/Dracon are) to the Twin Towers *and*, and this is important, mid/uptown Manhattan.

For the sake of this exercise, let's go there.

Second Part: Getting some numbers.

Let us put ourselves in Owen's shoes as he calls Xanatos to tell him of the unfortunate mishap looking towards Manhattan. We draw a triangle from Owen (A) to the base of the South Tower (B) and its top (C).

The distance of side AB is approximately 1.9 miles (10,032 ft.) from where the antenna-less South Tower once stood (side BC) at an impressive 1,362 ft. The angle B is 90 degrees (Leaning Tower aside, most tall buildings are built straight up). Using a little geometry (*baby horns to the Law of Sines*) we determine that the angle A (from Owen's eye to the top of the South Tower) is approximately 7.73 degrees.

We return to the screencap. Using Photoshop, from the waterline to the top of the South Tower I count 55 pixels. Doing the same for the Eyrie Building, I count 87 pixels, for an Eyrie:ST ratio of 1.5818.

HOWEVER, this is not relative to *height* as the South Tower and the Eyrie Building are not side-by-side (bloody convenient as that would be) but relative to *angle*. Thus, the angle from Owen's eye to the top of the Eyrie Building, in the scene being referenced, is 12.23 degrees.

Third part: Where is the Eyrie Building?

JEB's Encyclopedia says that the Eyrie Building is at the "head of Central Park," which from our hypothesized standing point for Owen is 5.96 miles (31,469 ft.) at closest. I'm looking to confirm this in the Ask Greg archives but have been so far unsuccessful.

Let us draw triangle A (Owen) E (base of the Eyrie) W (top of Wyvern), thus making side AE 31,469 feet, angle E 90 degrees, angle A 12.23 degrees, angle W 77.77 degrees and side EW the side in question.

Throw in the appropriate geometry again and we arrive at a staggering 6,822 feet as the hypothesized height of the Eyrie Building.

Take *that* Taipei 101 (1,667 feet) and the known capabilities of structural engineering!

So, assuming that's just a *tad* too high, let's say the Eyrie Building is still in Midtown but closer to (or, for the sake of it, in place of) the Empire State Building (4.68 miles/24,710 feet) from Owen. With the same procedure as before, we arrive at 5,357 feet as Eyrie's height.

Still really tall.

Finally, let's assume that the Deadly Force distance perspectives are all wrong but keep 1.5818 as the ratio between the sizes of the South Tower and the Eyrie. With no geometry (thankfully) we arrive at a height of 2,154 feet for the Eyrie, which might be closer to the "Full_Circle" screencap of DT's that Leo just posted.

Taipei 101, you're going down!

...Um, discuss. 2,154 feet, 5,357 feet or 6,821 feet, this building presents some severe engineering questions and problems.

Oh, and I dug up this link: http://www.cee.mtu.edu/~jwprusi/garg/eyrie.html - a cursory discussion of Eyrie structural stuff from somebody's project at Michigan Tech.
Alex Garg
Dorkgasmic!
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 2:49:08 pm EST from 216.145.68.246

On the subject of the Eyrie building, here are some screnshots showing the support structure under the castle. (Note that sometimes it's drawn differently)

http://members.aol.com/bellegarg3/Pans/Eyrie_Building01.jpg
http://members.aol.com/bellegarg3/Pans/Eyrie_Building02.jpg
http://members.aol.com/bellegarg3/Pans/Eyrie_Building03.jpg
http://members.aol.com/bellegarg3/Pans/Full_Circle.jpg
http://members.aol.com/bellegarg3/Pans/Castle_Wyvern06.jpg
http://members.aol.com/bellegarg3/Backgrounds/Castle_Wyvern03.jpg

(Screenshots courtesy of Demona Taina)
Leo
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 2:00:23 pm EST from 68.107.154.71

Gonna go, guys. I need to get a bit more sleep. I'll BBL.

*slithers out the door*
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 1:25:47 pm EST from 209.239.132.128

Greg B.> *frowns* Sorry, I don't have a link. I was just going by memory.

Which, going by your last statement, seemed to be skewered slightly.

My bad.
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 1:23:49 pm EST from 209.239.132.128

KING COBRA> Greg never said it wasn't a gargoyle. Please provide me with a link.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 1:20:48 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Greg B.> All stuff that I already know from Ask Greg, which, BTW, I also remember saying that Lex's mate isn't a Gargoyle, either.

My take on it is that his mate is either A) a cybernetic Gargoyle (in which case, it wouldn't be a Gargoyle in the technical sense), or B) a fay.
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 1:19:17 pm EST from 209.239.132.128

KING COBRA> I doubt it's a character we've ever met in the series. I highly, highly doubt it.

It's probably not a human either, since Greg wants Goliath and Elisa to remain unique.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 1:16:28 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Krythera> Maybe so.

*thinks about his own ideas on who Lex's mate could be*
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 1:14:01 pm EST from 209.239.132.128

King Cobra-- I wouldn't hold my breath... http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=8320
Kythera of Anevern
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature" - Inkubus Sukkubus
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 1:09:58 pm EST from 24.126.11.109

Greg B.> Any further news about the comic? How many issues it will be, some of the storylines, etc.?

I personally hope they cover the whole Lex thing in one of the issues. I'd like to know more about his mate.
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:55:53 pm EST from 209.239.132.128

Kythera> Duly noted.
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:50:32 pm EST from 209.239.132.128

"The Journey" is considered canon, yep. I kinda wish it would be an extra episode on the next set, but I know that won't happen. Though at G2005, Greg said he'd probably cover that story in the comic.

I'll buy it if it comes out. I just won'g be disappointed if it doesn't.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:49:27 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

King Cobra-- There's nothing quick about the sort of thing I'd do to people who peek where they shouldnt... ^_-

Greg-- I know, I know, but I'm a completionist freak. Besides... TGC had "The Journey," which is still considered canon, isn't it?
Kythera of Anevern
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature" - Inkubus Sukkubus
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:46:04 pm EST from 24.126.11.109

Greg B.> If TGC was to ever come out on DVD, you think I should buy it, if only to have the entire series?
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:35:24 pm EST from 209.239.132.128

KYTHERA> The Goliath Chronicles do NOT exist. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

::Personally hopes TGC never sees the light of day on DVD::
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:32:43 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Kythera> *sneaks a peek over your shoulder and quickly dies a horrible death, before returning to life*

Heh. I don't kick it so easy. :P
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:32:00 pm EST from 209.239.132.128

King Cobra-- I could tell you... but then I'd have to kill you. ;]
Kythera of Anevern
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature" - Inkubus Sukkubus
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:29:28 pm EST from 24.126.11.109

Kythera> What are you inking?
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:28:59 pm EST from 209.239.132.128

HoE>"Besides, it's funny imagining her downing shots in her kitchen, muttering drunken things like, "why the hell did I explain to them what I was doing? I should have just done it! What am I, a Disney villain? I'm over 1,000 years old, I should know better! What the hell was I thinking? It's the humans' fault! They'll pay... for... this... hey, how long have I had that floor?" *slumps forward on the countertop, scene fades to black*"

LMAO!!!

Greg B.> Well, maybe just one of the actors. :P
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:26:51 pm EST from 209.239.132.128

And since this is driving me NUTS...

Jonny-- The last 26 episodes of Season 2 are NOT the *final* episodes. As awful as it was, the episodes from The Goliath Chronicles are the *final* episodes.

**Bristles and goes back to inking**
Kythera of Anevern
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature" - Inkubus Sukkubus
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:25:02 pm EST from 24.126.11.109

I often find commentaries with too many people get cluttered easily. Besides, for episode insight, I'd rather hear from the writers and producers.

Yeah, I think it'd be cool if the con got filmed again too.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:22:15 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

matt: I think that in the back of her mind, Demona was always planning a massive genocide. Even though Greg said she never had that specific plan in mind for 500 years, he also said that the purpose of the Fulfillment Spell is to fulfill the spellcaster's desire. So she probably knew that if she ever found a way where she might make her dream a reality, such a spell would be a crucial part. So I will alter my statement to say that she'd probably been contemplating a genocide of our species for many centuries, but lacked most of the resources. Ironically, Puck did her a bigger favor than she'd probably like to admit. It was as a human that she was better able to garner the resources for what would lead to the creation of the CV-1000.

I would think that most of her frustration would have stemmed from the fact that she'd been waiting so long for an opportunity to take revenge on the entire human race, and when it finally arrived, it only took Goliath seconds to undo it. That would annoy anyone.

Besides, it's funny imagining her downing shots in her kitchen, muttering drunken things like, "why the hell did I explain to them what I was doing? I should have just done it! What am I, a Disney villain? I'm over 1,000 years old, I should know better! What the hell was I thinking? It's the humans' fault! They'll pay... for... this... hey, how long have I had that floor?" *slumps forward on the countertop, scene fades to black*
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Teamwork is so overrated." -Thailog (from "Sanctuary")
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:20:23 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

Greg B.> How about commentary involving Greg W., Mike Reaves, Frank Paur, Thom, Jeff, and Bill? *has been following their careers for years*

The "Bad Guys" reel would be a cool extra as well. Maybe even some comic scans. Also, if Disney sends a camera crew to G2006, I'm definitely gonna want to be in on it.
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:09:43 pm EST from 209.239.132.128

The structural engineering geek-gasm continues...

I'm not sure that the area below the castle is an open structure. It looks more like glass to me, filling in the space between some pretty massive columns.

Here's a screencap of the building from a distance:
http://avalon.gargoyles-fans.org/ftp/pictures/tv/hunter/away.jpg

And here's one of the just the top:
http://avalon.gargoyles-fans.org/ftp/pictures/tv/hunter/xanacorp.jpg

At least two elements work in the building's favor. One, it has good setback as it goes up. That is, it's much wider at the base than it is at the top, making it more stable than a structure with the same cross section from top to bottom. Two, the upper portion has a lot of rounded surfaces, which help the wind flow around the building.

If I were to speculate, I would also guess there's a floor or two near mid-height of the building dedicated entirely to some sort of dampening system, to further counteract the tendancy of the building to sway in high winds. That's become a fairly commonplace solution in modern skyscraper construction. Read more about that here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuned_mass_damper
Patrick Toman - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"We all got a castle each. We're up to here with castles! We just long for a bungalow or something." - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:09:13 pm EST from 67.38.248.193

a plug for the comic book would be good.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer." - Douglas Adams
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:08:39 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

KING COBRA> I think I would like an audio commentary by GREG WEISMAN on Hunter's Moon, The Reckoning and Future Tense. Frank Paur as well, Michael Reaves and maybe one of the voice actors.

As for extras. Another interview documentary. Perhaps a "What might have been" featurette with Greg talking about his plans for the third season, pimping the comic, and talking about potential spin-offs.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:04:01 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Okay, guys, little poll for ya. If Season 2, Vol. 2 was to come out (and hopefully it will!) what features would you guys want to see on it? No, I'm not affiliated with Disney (for you ppl who don't know me and may get the wrong idea). I'm just curious.

I personally would like to have a "Trio" commentary on Gathering 1&2/Hunter's Moon 1,2,&3/Both, and voice recording outtakes.
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 11:44:01 am EST from 209.239.132.128

Jonny Modlin> Sorry to burst your bubble, man, but Season 2, Volume 2, last I heard, is still not set in stone, so to speak.

Which also means that there's probably not a DVD cover either.
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 11:31:43 am EST from 209.239.132.128

Jonny> How old are you?

Seriously, I'm glad you're enthusiastic, and that you want the next DVD to come out. We all want it to come out. But you don't need to keep asking the same questions every single day. It might be a few months till there's news, or just a few days. But when there is news, rest assured it will be all over the place.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 11:31:27 am EST from 65.33.202.237

Is Gargoyles Season Two, Volume One on DVD selling well at Amazon.com now? I am sorry I got a little worried about Gargoyles Season Two, Volume Two coming out on DVD this year to contain the final 26 episodes. I wanted to know of what the cover art will be like on Gargoyles Season Two, Volume Two on DVD. Thank you.

Jonny
Jonny Modlin - [mmodlin@optonline.net]
Jonathan Modlin
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 11:27:40 am EST from 24.44.53.156

Matt> True enough about Gargoyles sleeping, but most of them wouldn't have been trapped for 1,000 years by a magic spell.

For all I knew, the Magus' curse could've blocked the PG's protection of the Manhattan Clan, thus killing them instantly (god forbid) if they were to wake.
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 11:20:22 am EST from 209.239.132.128

Hunter's Moon comes once a year, so she certainly had the oppurtunity before 1996, but perhaps not the resources and the idea.

as for the Praying Gargoyle. well, a sleeping gargoyle is still a gargoyle, so i have little doubt it would've protected Goliath and the others. i mean, if you think about it, at any given time, somewhere in the world some gargs are sleeping and others are awake, so what would it matter?
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer." - Douglas Adams
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 11:17:02 am EST from 24.182.146.1

BTW, got my (and someone else's) plane tickets ordered for this summer, so you guys going to G2006 will definitely see me this time.

No repeat of the G2005 in Vegas, where I registered and then had to drop out.

B*tchin'. :-)
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 11:12:35 am EST from 209.239.132.128

Matt> That would make sense, given that it's highly improbable that it was the 1st (or only) Hunter's Moon in the last 1,000 or so years before 1996. If there had been a Moon before-hand, and if Demona had done the spell before the clan had been reawakened, she surely would've succeeded.

Which prompts me to ask. Would the Praying Gargoyle have protected the clan even while they were trapped in stone sleep? Most likely, yeah. But what do you guys think?
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 11:08:20 am EST from 209.239.132.128

great points, Patrick. though i still think it would be difficult to simply place a heavy castle on an existing building, i agree with you that the wind problem would potentially be more problematic.

perhaps those large open spaces below the castle have something to do with the solution. again, i'm no engineer, but it seems some open space among the higher levels would help cut down on the wind problem.

it really looks like for that last few hundred feet, Xanatos was just trying to gain height, not focusing on office space or anything else. those large spaces seem to have ended up being used for the large atrium and the helipad Fox and David take off from in City of Stone.

Greg B> ah, well, if Greg W said it, then i guess thats that. still, if she had been able to try the Fulfillment Spell in 1995 or 1994 or earlier she would've done it certainly... at most she probably only came up with the idea a few years before "Hunter's Moon" and had to secure Sevarius' help until she could put the plan into action. more likely though, she probably only put it all together a few weeks in advance.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer." - Douglas Adams
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 9:52:08 am EST from 24.182.146.1

Macbeth called the Eyrie Building "the tallest building in the world" when he found Demona there in "City of Stone," so if we take him literally, it would be taller than the Sears Tower, which in real life was the tallest building at the time, measured to highest occupied floor (1,431 ft). In 2004, the Tapei 101 tower in Taiwan took over first place in this category (1,437 ft). So if the Eyrie Building, measured to the top of the highest castle turret, was at least 7 feet taller than the Sears Tower, it would still hold the record.

The true engineering challenge of the Eyrie Building is not the obvious one that is always assumed. Creating a structure than can support the castle's immense gravity load would not be terribly difficult using a conventional steel frame design. It would take a lot of material and wouldn't be cheap, but it could be done. It's the wind loads that would pose the real problem for the structural engineers. Putting that much mass atop a realtively flexible steel framed tower essentially creates an inverted pendulum. Special attention would need to be paid to ensuring that wind can't make the structure oscillate in way that might cause it to rip itself apart like the first Tacoma Narrows Bridge. This problem would have to be considered at the earliest stages of design.

So it's just not realistic to take Xanatos at his word. He could not have simply decided as construction was nearing completion that he was going to stick that castle up there.

117 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Valencia, California!
Patrick Toman - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"We all got a castle each. We're up to here with castles! We just long for a bungalow or something." - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 9:05:12 am EST from 67.38.248.193

hmmm. someone ate too many of our famous Comment Room cookies...
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Let us all bask in television's warm glowing warming glow." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 1:52:50 am EST from 24.182.146.1

Here, have a Xanax
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 1:31:24 am EST from 65.33.202.237

WOW, IT SURE GOT QUIET IN THIS ROOM. COME ONE....SOMEONE, FOR GOD SAKE MAKE SOME NOICE...TOO..MUCH....PRESSURE..AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"There's an evil monkey in my closet!"
posted @ Sun, Feb 26, 2006 1:27:06 am EST from 69.234.8.165

MATT> That's what Greg Weisman has said. It had to be cast on the Hunter's Moon
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 11:23:57 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

are you sure it HAD to be Hunter's Moon? i thought she was just doing it on that date for poetic justice (in her view). i know it had to be on holy ground, but on Hunter's Moon? not so sure...
but yeah, regardless, if she had the resources she would've done it sooner. so, if it had to be on Hunter's Moon, she probably had only had it planned for less than a year, a bit shy of 500.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Let us all bask in television's warm glowing warming glow." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 11:15:29 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

MATT> Well, that spell could only be cast on the Hunter's Moon. Granted, she could have done something like that previous years, but didn't have the resources.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 10:53:52 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Eyrie Building> i have to disagree. a stone castle is considerably heavy. the reason we don't build skyscrapers out of stone is because of its weight. steel, if i remember correctly is much lighter. i'm not convinced Xanatos could reinforce an existing building to support that much weight. i think the Eyrie had to be built with the castle-top in mind. those massive columns easily visable below the castle probably support most of that weight and they probably continue all the way to sub-basement levels. you wouldn't build such massive load-bearing pillars all the way to the top of the building unless there was a big weight to support up there.
makes me wonder exactly how tall that building is... and how many floors...

Demona's foiled plan> i'm not sure she was planning the whole thing 500 years in advance. she certainly could not have known about advances in medical technology 500 years ago. she was probably just hoarding magical and potentially useful objects over the years and only somewhat recently put together the idea for the Fulfillment Spell using a few of her acquiered talismans, the virus and the disinfectant. in fact, she may have only been planning the whole thing a few weeks in advance. she had to wait until she had the disinfectant and Sevarius' help. if she hadn't, why wait til that night? why not before? not to mention, why would she try the City of Stone plot if she had a way to kill everyone all over the world, all at once?
still, i'm sure she was pretty pissed that her plan was foiled. and she was probably really upset that the Praying Gargoyle was destroyed (again). it takes some time for that thing to heal itself, and i'm sure she has other things she could do with it. i do wonder why she didn't take off with the Medici Tablet though, maybe it was useless to her or something, or maybe she forgot.

i wonder what other magical talismans Demona has stored away...
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Let us all bask in television's warm glowing warming glow." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 10:46:44 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Kris: Demona killed Charles Canmore at the beginning of Part 3. The beginning of Part 2 showed us Demona in Florence in the 15th Century, securing the first of the talismans that she later uses in 1996 as part of her ultimate plan. Part 1 showed us the scene we saw in City of Stone, Part 1, but with an addition: Gillecomgain staggering from the barn after the attack and getting berated by his father, which as Tood said, explains a bit better why Gillecomgain might have overreacted to such a degree as to include not just Demona, but the entire gargoyle race in his plans for revenge. And I am hoping that Season 2, Volume 2 does see the light of day. For a fan to not have seen "Future Tense"...

General comments to everyone and no one:
While we're on the subject of Hunters, having watched the three-parter again recently, I noticed a very nice progression between the little opening vignettes for each of the three parts of "Hunter's Moon". First, we not only get the creation of the Hunter, but also an idea of just why Gillecomgain might have expanded his vendetta to include the entire gargoyle race (something City of Stone, Part One really didn't do). Then, in Part 2, when Demona is in Italy, she has a run-in with the Hunter, and so we see that someone is continuing the hunt. In his tirade, the Hunter says that if he fails, his descendants will continue the hunt. This shows us that the Hunter is set up rather like the comic book character of the Phantom: they're mortal, but they continue to train new generations down through the ages so that there will always be a Hunter (I'm not making a direct comparison to the Phantom, since I never liked the Phantom much anyway, simply that they share a smilar premise). Then in Part 3, we learn not only who most of the Hunters are probably descended from, but even that they don't know why they started doing it. And all this is revealed through just a little snippet of conversation, Charles telling his daughter that it's their "destiny as Canmores" to hunt gargoyles. To me, this actually made the Hunter we saw at the beginning of Part 2 seem a bit less malicious. He had probably put on the mask for the same reason: he saw it as the sacred duty that went with his lineage. After seeing Part 3, I thought that the main reason the Hunter in the 15th Century threw such a tantrum was not out of personal hatred, but that he was just frustrated, having tracked Demona for years and then losing her again in the span of a few minutes. But part of me still agrees with Todd that he was kind of dumb not to notice her gliding above the riverbank right behind him. Ah, well, anger does cloud judgment. But anyway, those three vignettes really serve as a testament to the quality of writing in the first 66 episodes: they tell someone so much through so little.

One more quick thing about Part Three: I always thought that, considering she'd been planning this thing for 500 years, Demona took Goliath's destroying the praying gargoyle rather well. She flares her wings, shakes her fists, and yells a bit, just not as loud as I thought she would (I was expecting a shrill, primal scream, similar to what we got in "Temptation"). I like to think that she vented further when she got home that night. And then fired a bunch of people for no reason the next day. AND beat the shit out of Sevarius (which a friend of mine suggested she might have done when she got to work and saw her safe door blown open). And I also think a bender might have been involved in there somewhere, too. But that's all just speculation (which I think is acceptable speculation, because unless Greg gives us any hints, we don't know what Demona did after leaving the church).
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Isn't Sonny Bono the mayor of Florida now?" -From an actual conversation I had with a homeless guy outside Washington DC's MCI Center last Friday.
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 4:36:20 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

If it's any consolation, Amazon.ca is listing season 2 vol. 1 at the sales rank of #154. That's pretty damned high.
The Barracuda
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 4:12:27 pm EST from 204.209.150.46

I'm pretty sure I missed most or all of "Hunter's Moon Part 1" back in the day. Have absolutely no memory of getting a bit more of Gillcomgain's backstory. Was the flashback to Demona battling (and killing?) Robyn, Jon, and Jason's father in Part 1 or 2? I vaguely remember seeing that.

There are at least two whole episodes ("Mark of the Panther" and "Future Tense") that I'm sure I never caught any of. Probably bits of other episodes from the second half of Season 2 as well, 'cause that's the least-familiar part of the series to me (and "The Goliath Chronicles", for which I saw two). Only ever saw the World Tour and The Gathering once, but I'd seen Season 1, and early Season 2 eps tons of times (especially "City of Stone", which I think I had taped for a while).

Season 2 Volume 2 HAS to come out on DVD, or I'll have to resort to bootlegs when it gets to the point where I don't wanna wait anymore.
Kris - [Ontario, Canada]
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 3:23:34 pm EST from 69.17.169.178

I am sorry that I got worried about the Gargoyles Season Two, Volume Two on DVD that will contain the final 26 episodes that is coming out later this year to complete the series. Is Gargoyles Season Two, Volume One selling fairly well? Thank you.

Jonny
Jonny Modlin - [mmodlin@optonline.net]
Jonathan Modlin
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 2:59:59 pm EST from 24.44.53.156

Siren: OMG. Definately has the look of a gargbeast. I take it that's an undoctored photo (cats can be funky to photograph because of that).

Harvester: I agree, I think the supports were added so the castle could be supported. The castle is heavy, but I doubt it's too much added to the overall mass and weight of the structure. Still, I bet that building sways a lot in bad storms.
Asatira
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 12:28:35 pm EST from 66.168.244.117

Forgive the double post, but in answer to Jonny's question, it looks like DVD sales are up from the last time I checked it two weeks ago. The last time I had looked (which was before Greg's announcement on the 14th), I think it was down in the 13 or 1400s. It's not doing as well as it was yesterday, but there has been a spike.

Speaking of the DVD, I noticed that we've reached the halfway point as far as reviews are concerned. If anyone knows someone who's bought the DVD but hasn't reviewed it, perhaps some polite suggestion is in order.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Charon doesn't make change.
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 12:05:21 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

matt: There were some shots in "Awakening, Part Two" where it looked like support structures had been added to the building to help it hold up the castle. I'm sure that Xanatos took this into consideration before he started moving the castle over the Atlantic, and hired an architect who estimated how much the castle was going to weigh, and what would be required atop the Eyrie Building to support it. I can only imagine the look on that guy's face when Xanatos said, "map out a foundation for the top of the building that can safely hold a tenth century castle."
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Charon doesn't make change.
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 10:55:55 am EST from 69.174.3.196

Does anyone know how the sales are doing for Gargoyles Season Two, Volume One on DVD like Amazon.com to get Gargoyles Season Two, Volume Two released on DVD? Thank you.

Jonny
Jonny Modlin - [mmodlin@optonline.net]
Jonathan Modlin
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 10:24:57 am EST from 24.44.53.156

I would argue that in the cases of both Doom and Gillecomgain, they were already walking destructive paths.

Whit> Greg has said that Gil already had darkness in him, came from his father. Demona just gave him something to focus on. We see this in HM Part 1.

"Vanity, definetly mu favorite sin."
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 9:38:35 am EST from 65.33.202.237

It's vanity. As in the cases of people such as Dr Doom, Gil, and even the Phantom of the Opera. The vanity of themselves, and they way the believe the world would percieve them can drive the sanest man to insanity. Never underestimate the importance a person blaces on the physical appearance.
#
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 8:03:49 am EST from 66.71.80.73

I remember being disappointed with the presentation of how Gillecomgain became the hunter. Of all the reasons to become a homicidal freak, "my face! my beautiful face!" seemed to make him as less of a scary guy and more a bit of an irritating kid who would have grown up to be a preening pretty-boy.
Whitbourne
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 7:48:14 am EST from 142.167.199.232

I know my local store sold out of Haunted Mansion 1 and 2, but then again they only bought 30 issues of each.
#
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 3:26:51 am EST from 66.71.80.73

Oh wow, so this Stephanie LoStimolo did that wicked poster for this year's Gathering with that James Dean-ish-looking gargoyle on a bike? Having looked over all the art and design work on her site, I think she'd be great doing the interiors too. But it's cool that there'll be separate artists both for COVER pencils & colors and INTERIOR pencils and colors--we'll see variations on the characters throghout the book's run.

How has Haunted Mansion sold, anyone know? With the Tron comic just having been offered for pre-orders this past month, I'm looking forward to seeing how its numbers are. Then it's Wonderland, and the last Disney/Slave Labor effort for the forseeable future will be Gargoyles, right? I hope those first three titles do very well (obviously they're not gonna do X-Men numbers, but "do very well" for an indie publisher like Slave Labor Graphics I mean) so we can feel a bit more confident that Gargoyles will be successful too. If Gargoyles has impressive art (obviously it's all in the eye of the beholder and all, but there are certain styles that appeal to the widest range of people possible), there's that much more potential to draw in those who've either never seen nor heard of the TV series or who never considered themselves very big fans.
Kris - [Ontario, Canada]
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 2:36:06 am EST from 69.17.169.178

Her name is Satin. She's a Sphynx. Same breed as the one in Austin Powers. Almost completely hairless. She's sitting on my shoulder now like a monkey, watching me type. She likes to chase the cursor.
Siren
Marina "Demona" Sirtis is in Orlando this weekend! Click my name for details!
posted @ Sat, Feb 25, 2006 2:06:58 am EST from 65.33.112.205

Siren> haha, cute garg-kitty... what is her name?

Eyrie Building> i would think that if you were gonna put an entire STONE castle on a skyscraper you'd have to build that skyscraper specifically to support the immense weight of the massive building and very heavy castle. i doubt Xanatos could just plop it on top of a sufficiently tall building. i'm no engineer, but that would really stretch the believability of the series IMHO.
Xanatos properly had the building in construction knowing that he might move the castle there and he might not so he built it so it could work, but it seems silly. i guess hes got the money to spend on these things, but Owen wasn't kidding when he said that the "cost of this venture" would be "astronomical".
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Let us all bask in television's warm glowing warming glow." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 11:54:56 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Siren, that's the smallest Gargbeast I've ever seen ;)
Starlioness
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 10:36:02 pm EST from 70.58.67.109

Hypotheticals matter if one takes into the fact all quantaum possibilites happen, but our mind only knows one specific one at any given time and have no knowledge if the other quantaum possibility even happen.
#
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 9:24:24 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

I just realized....I never introduced you all to my "gargoyle" cat.

She just reminds me of a gargoyle...lol
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/SirensGrotto/Picture410.jpg

Close-up: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/SirensGrotto/Pets/pets1045.jpg
Siren
Marina "Demona" Sirtis is in Orlando this weekend! Click my name for details!
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 9:02:53 pm EST from 65.33.112.205

Spen: Are you sure that was him? He wasn't even using his normal text color. (;

Hey, I was just attempting to talk about something Gargoyles-related. Mostly because I don't know enough about Todd MacFarlane to call him anything.

Greg B: Thanks for the link. I especially liked the coloring on "Flier". It's gotten me drooling even more for this comic. If this keeps up, I'll have to find some way to temporarily shut off my salivary glands so I don't start my new job on Monday covered in my own spit.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Charon doesn't make change.
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 8:25:49 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

Count me in as someone else who doesn't care about hypotheticals.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 7:37:34 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Mind you, I sometimes wonder if hypotheticals are appropriate in discussing a universe where history is immutable and the past can't be changed. :)
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 7:32:56 pm EST from 4.244.210.55

Harvester : Ed posted in the TGS room this week. So I obviously didn't get to him. (Mainly because I can't afford to go to England. Or anywhere else for that matter.) Besides, after the initial reaction, I cooled down a bit.
Spen
"There are three kinds of people; those who can't count, and those who can." - Wilek Nereus
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 7:15:28 pm EST from 216.248.119.208

HOLY SHEET! Go Raptor Woman!!! (I know, she doesn't go by that much anymore, but I've been a fan of her art since then)
Siren
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 6:28:19 pm EST from 65.33.112.205

Greg B. : Woot! My anticipation of the art has now gone way up, even if only for the covers. Stephanie does pretty pictures.
Asatira
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 4:57:47 pm EST from 66.168.244.117

Anyone read ASK GREG?

Greg just announced that our fandom's very own Steph Lostimolo will be coloring Greg Guler's pencils for the "Gargoyles" comic covers. Personally, I think this is a match made in Heaven. I can't wait to see what these two cook up.

For those who don't know, Steph is a long time fan, and has been a part of the fandom for a very long time. Done some of the best fan art I have ever seen, and has gone professional. She worked in the art department for a little movie called "Revenge of the Sith".

Personally, I think it's really cool to have a long time fan involved with the comic.

Here's a link tp her website. Her stuff is AWESOME!

http://www.nethersphere.com/

You rock Steph!
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 4:40:56 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Spen: *shrugs* Everyone dies. Speaking of which, is this the first time you've done it? I don't think Ed has posted since his little stunt a few weeks ago. ( ;

Obed and #: I'm wondering if Gillecomgain hadn't been scarred, if another gargoyle hunter might have gained notoriety in 11th-Century Scotland. We really don't know what the general attitude towards gargoyles as a whole was like. We can make guesses, based on the fact that the relationship between the gargoyles and the humans of Wyvern was strained at best. Not to mention after starting up her fugitive existence, Demona wasn't doing much to bolster the image of gargoyles, since she was stealing their food and sometimes slaying random humans in the process. It seems like an environment where a person might change vocations.

And I don't know if Duncan and Canmore would have come up with a symbol like the Hunter's mask. I was just saying that their reasons for hunting gargoyles were completely opposite to Gillecomgain's. It was just something I was toying with. One of the few comics I did enjoy reading was Marvel's "What If?" series. Hypotheticals fascinate me.

Todd: Yeah, I think that even if Gillecomgain's face weren't scarred, he might still have grown up to be Duncan's hired assassin. It looked like his environment was nurturing that dark half. He'd just be lacking the intense hatred for gargoyles.

matt: I think the Eyrie Building was already the world's tallest building. It was tall enough to suit the needs of the spell. And Xanatos owned it. So it was just convenient for him to put the castle on top of it.

Bishansky: I forgot to mention this yesterday. Hypocritical assholism is a very good reason for not liking someone. It's the main reason I think George Lucas is a dick.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Well do you ever get the feeling that the story's too damn real and in the present tense, or that everybody's on the stage and it seems like you're the only person sitting in the audience?" -Ian Anderson
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 3:39:01 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

random thought:
wouldn't it have been a lot cheaper and easier for Xanatos to move the Castle to a mountaintop so it could be above the clouds? i mean, to build a skyscraper at sea level with the intent to make the top above the clouds is a little silly... i guess he really wanted that castle in New York...
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Let us all bask in television's warm glowing warming glow." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 1:52:13 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

On a side-note, it might be worth raising the question over how much Demona's attack on Gillecomgain was the cause of his becoming the Hunter, and how much the catalyst. While it definitely focused Gillecomgain's hatred on Demona and her species, we learn in "Hunter's Moon Part One" that he had a harsh and uncaring father, who was undoubtedly pushing him into the darkness. (Certainly anyone whose immediate response to being slashed in the face by a gargoyle is to vow to slaughter every single gargoyle, as opposed to just the one who did it to him, must have a lot of darkness in his soul.)

I find myself suspecting that Gillecomgain's becoming the Hunter might have been a lot like the case of a lot of those comic-book super-villains who ostensibly become super-villains because of some disfiguring injury, but who were actually heading down that path before they were disfigured.
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 7:18:22 am EST from 4.244.210.248

And if you think about, Demona scarred Gil. Gil got pissed off enough to wage war on the Gargoyles, which pissed Demona off. The only reason the first she was there to help Macbeth as a kid was because she was attacking Gil. If the weird sisters didn't have Gil, they would've needed another Gargoyle Hunter with over the top reasons to push Demona to the edge, to hunt him back.
#
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 2:23:27 am EST from 66.71.80.73

I agree, without Gillecomgain experiencing what he did and eventually becoming the Hunter, I don't see how there would have been any Hunters in the future, and like matt said, that itself certainly would have affected history. Plus i think the point of Gillecomgain is to show how Demona inadvertently keeps hurting herself and her own species because of her careless (or more accurately, hateful) actions.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Fri, Feb 24, 2006 1:13:22 am EST from 71.57.178.10

i dunno HoEyes, without Gil there wouldn't have been a first Hunter, much less a whole bunch of them. i doubt Duncan or Canmore would've come up with a gargoyle-hunting persona on their own.
and no Hunters would've changed history a lot. if nothing else, the Manhattan Clan would not likely have been exposed in 1996.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Let us all bask in television's warm glowing warming glow." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 11:01:05 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Harvester : I hope you don't mind, but I'll have to kill you for that signature.
Spen
"There are three kinds of people; those who can't count, and those who can." - Wilek Nereus
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 10:10:36 pm EST from 216.248.119.208

*skewers a marshmallow and starts roasting it on the flames*

#: I tried. I've reached the point where I'm about ready to initiate yet another discussion of why the Goliath Chronicles suck on toast. But before I do that, does anyone know if Todd MacFarlane advocates smoking?

But seriously, I threw this out to the CR a week or two ago and no one seemed to notice. So I figured I'd do it again:

A few weeks ago, I hypothesized that if Demona had never had that encounter with Gillecomgain in 10th Century Scotland, I don't think history would really be too different. We saw in the "Avalon" Three-Parter that the Weird Sisters had been advised by the Archmage to sort of give Demona and MacBeth a small push towards a certain destiny. They happened to use Gillecomgain as a suggestion to Demona that she should be at Castle Moray at certain times. If they hadn't had him, I'm sure they would have been able to find something else. I can't say offhand what that might have been, but they're immortal. They've been around. Also, the power struggle within the Scottish clans would likely have gone on all the same. If Duncan didn't have Gillecomgain to do his more underhanded work, he'd likely have found someone else. That also brings me to the reasons for hunting gargoyles. Gillecomgain was motivated out of personal vendetta, while Duncan and his son were motivated by politics. Even without the mask, that reasoning would probably still be the same.

Granted, I'm glad that Demona did have that encounter (and especially love the fact that to her, the act of slashing a kid in the face was like swatting an insect- not even worth remembering), as the mask is a very cool symbol. But I'm just saying that if hadn't happened, the course of history might have been altered slightly, but not much.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Egon Pax.
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 9:47:07 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

McFarlane also called his fans idiots, and said that the only reason he did comics was because he couldn't play baseball. He also refers to Marvel and DC as plantations, even though he does the same exact thing he was mad about them for.

Somebody end this discussion before the website changes it's name to flame Todd McFarlane.
#
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 9:00:22 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

PGF: aww, but theyr're cute little animals.. though I think they should have Goofy in there along with Max. and Aladdin or Genie (even thought they aren't animals)

*laughs at Goliath trying to crack a smile * :lol:
starlioness
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 8:24:50 pm EST from 70.58.67.109

BISHANSKY - Apology accepted. (This reminds me of when I used to stop by in "X-Men: Evolution" forums, and when somebody commented that they were disappointed that Toad's civilian name in the cartoon wasn't Mortimer Toynbee, I replied that I was far more concerned about the fact that his civilian name in the cartoon was Todd.)

And then there was the time in an early episode of "Angel" when Angel was pretending to be a representative from a company entitled "Jensen International", and Cordelia commented that "Jensen" and "International" didn't go together. My response to that one was, "On behalf of everyone who shares my surname - hey!"
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 8:19:52 pm EST from 4.244.18.72

BB> Yeah, and Hitler painted roses. And Jeffrey Dalmer was apparantly a charming guy ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 8:13:53 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Greg B.> I Happen to think Todd (Mcfarlane) is a great person... not only is he from my home city (Edmonton) but he also stepped up to the plate to save our beloved Oilers (NHL) when they were about to be sold, and he has donated to many worthwhile charities in the city. He is a classy guy; I've met him once and he was very friendly.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
GO CANADA GO!!!
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 8:09:42 pm EST from 198.53.28.99

Harvester: LOL I love that picture! Goliath is just SO out of place there! I love how he looms over everyone, and he's got this look on his face that seems to say "WTF how did I end up here with all these furry little animals?"
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 7:12:40 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

This link fell into my lap from a little bird, and I just had to share it (click my name). Notice how happy he looks to be there!

Todd: That actually reminds me of an AIM Conversation I had with Bishansky a month or so ago, where he mistakenly thought that I was saying that you had been in an episode of "Batman: Beyond" when I was actually referring to a discussion you and I had about it in the TGS CR. I've actually got it saved, if he doesn't mind me sharing the exchange with you.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"When the Vikings attacked, the Captain said he'd protect us. But I didn't trust him. I've stayed alive because I don't trust anyone." -Demona (from "Awakening, Part Five.")
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 6:40:15 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

TODD> My apologies. See, I know you'd stab Neil Gaiman in the face, to his face. Unlike McFarlane

/Joking

;)
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 6:17:09 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

BISHANSKY - Um, could you refer to McFarlane exclusively by his surname, please? I'd rather not have anyone just skimming the comment room get the wrong impression over whose activities you're denouncing. :)
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 6:11:56 pm EST from 4.244.18.72

Speaking of the Miracleman/Marvelman issue, sorry to lead everyone off topic of gargoyles, but did anyone see the 10th anniversery Image hardcover, or Spawn 150? If you didn't a new character was created to replace Coligstro so Mcfarlane wouldn't have to pay Neil anymore for his use. They made the Man of Mirarcles.

This is the action figure:
http://www.spawn.com/toys/spawn/series29/miracles/images/series29_miracles_photo_04_dp.jpg

And this is how he was shown in the comics:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/44/Man_of_miracles.gif

David Hines current writer of Spawn says the character is not Miracleman and bares no similarties to him.
It would never happen but if the Gargoyle got popular enough, it'd be cool if they could convince Neil to do an arc.
#
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 5:23:20 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

I've never read the Spawn comics (though I've been curious to due to Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, and Grant Morrison having written the odd issue), so I can't vouch for their quality or lack of it. I do know that it's not lauded as a prime example of quality comic book writing, even after Macfarlane got Brian Holguin to assist him on script chores. I got somewhat hooked on the property with the HBO series though, and I still maintain that it started out very well and followed through with the quality for Season 1. It started to crap out somewhere during Season 2, and pretty much died under Frank Paur's watch, since he joined for the Season 3 film...though he probably didn't have much control over story direction.

Yeah, the various reasons why Macfarlane is a tool have been well-reported on, not the least of which is his seeming childishness over the rights to MiracleMan and how much he must've pissed off Neil Gaiman and Rob Liefield to not let certain characters they created guest star in the book anymore.

Anyway, whatever. I'll still check out the new series' DVD. I don't do boycotts. I've been tempted to give up on the Fox network and their programming after all the quality TV shows they've cancelled, but every so often something good will come from them that I can't pass up (well, not from THEM specifically, but the creative talent they hire). And I'm addicted to "24", so they still own a bit of my soul.
Kris - [Ontario, Canada]
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 5:07:27 pm EST from 69.17.169.178

I boycott McFarlane simply because I think he's a hypocritical asshole. He left Marvel to start Image going on and on about creator's rights and how Marvel sucked in that category. Very well and good. I respect that.

And then, he turns around and does the exact same thing to Neil Gaiman. Todd invited Neil to write a couple issues of Spawn, where Neil created the characters of Angela, Medeval Spawn, and a few more... Todd told Neil that Neil would have full control, and would be the one to profit from those characters. Creator's Rights and all.

What happens next? Todd stabs Neil in the back. Rakes in cash off of merchandise and comics those characters are in. Neil takes Todd to court and wins big. To this date, Todd has not apologised or acknowledged wrong doing.

Oh, and Venom sucks.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 5:02:25 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

I kinda liked the stories MacFarlane did for Spider Man about fifteen years ago, even though I was never crazy about Spider Man (except where Venom was concerned). But other than that, I only own one other comic he was involved with, and that was a Spawn/Batman crossover that was okay. Not great, not even good, just okay. Speaking of toys, #, I do have the action figures of Bob and Doug MacKenzie that I think were a part of his toy line. Those are set up in my room. Other than that, I'm not really much of a collector, and am not really huge into comics or action figures. I will, of course, buy the Gargoyles comic (to pledge my support for that and to read new stories by Greg Weisman), but my reason for not supporting MacFarlane is simply because I'm not a big fan of that medium anyway. I'll stick to boycotting Walmart.

Now for something Gargoyles-related. It's amazing how many animation errors I didn't notice until I got the DVD. I was watching "The Cage" last night, and spotted a few scenes where they used the Talon model in place of Fang (most noticably when Fang and Brooklyn fight in Act II). Also, after a more recent viewing, I think I have to agree with Bishansky that Talon was a pretty big dumbass. Why exactly did he want to kill Sevarius before Xanatos even put the thought in his head that Sevarius was in league with Goliath?

I also had an interesting conversation with DTaina the other day. Which would be more beneficial to helping see the release of Season 2, Volume 2: spreading the word or buying multiple copies? We both decided that if fans inform others that the DVD is out, this could ultimately do more good because those people have the potential to inform others. Raising sales by buying multiple copies (if one is able) is all well and good, but in the end, sweeping the corners and informing others of the existence of the DVD would be better, since it has the potential to boost both DVD sales and the scope of the fandom.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"When the Vikings attacked, the Captain said he'd protect us. But I didn't trust him. I've stayed alive because I don't trust anyone." -Demona (from "Awakening, Part Five.")
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 4:57:24 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

I would BoyCott Mcfarlane, and I do of his comics, but his toys are so damn cool. The dragon line and the KISS lines are so detailed, and pretty to look at. I don't like him for his attitude to fans, and fellow creators, but his company makes fine action figures.
#
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 3:46:05 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

Which is a shame. I'd love for Gargoyles to definetly be more popular than Spawn. Gargoyles is a better product, and Greg is so much cooler than that piece of crap McFarlane.

Been boycotting McFarlane for years, and I will continue to do so.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 12:24:50 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

dreams are so weird sometimes.

last night my brother and Demona were hiding out in the Ewok Village and my sister and i were hunting them down in our family TIE fighter...

something else off topic: who else can see Broadway and Angela cuddling up and watching American Idol?
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Let us all bask in television's warm glowing warming glow." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 12:21:54 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Hey, Frank Paur's the director of the new Spawn series too.

Very cool to hear about all that voice talent joining the new Spawn project. Especially of course Keith, Phil LaMarr (who's great as Samurai Jack and other roles), Bruce Boxleitner (of Babylon 5) and Clancy Brown (the reason I took on the Wolf avatar) . There were some facts about the series on Spawn.com, including...

-not a continuation of the HBO series (kind of a shame there, throwing out the HBO version)
-will definitely be "R" rated
-their plan is to release the 80-minute movie direct to DVD via Anchor Bay Entertainment early this year
-they'd like to see Spawn back on HBO and will pitch to them first. After that they'll look into other channels. If no one in Hollywood wishes to pick up the show to distribute, they're set to bring the story out in DVD form regardless

Imagine Gargoyles in a direct-to-DVD format...I can't help dreaming a little bit. The comic's coming, Keith'll be in another relatively high-profile role...despite the warning about the possibility of Season 2 Volume 2 DVDs, things still seem to be going pretty well for this series and its actors.

Yeah, I know, it's not and never has been nearly as popular worldwide or in any single country as the Spawn comic book...*grumble* I really shouldn't start complaining--comic this summer!
Kris - [Ontario, Canada]
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 3:01:25 am EST from 69.17.169.178

I've heard it is possibly a reboot, but not a new orgin story, with Keith being the only returning voice actors. Other Gargoyle VA on the new Spawn cartoon, include Clancy Brown, Cree Summers, and Jesse Corti. Non Gargoyle VA will be Mark Hamill replacing Michael McShane as Twitch, Jon Polito replacing James Keane as Burke, Peter Jessop, Miss Kitte who does a voice on W.I.T.C.H, Phil LaMarr, Carl Weathers, and Michael Jai White who played Spawn in the live action movie. A short trailer is avaliable on McFarlane's official site, with beautiful voiceover by Keith.
#
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 1:54:45 am EST from 66.71.80.73

# said:
"I wonder if Keith will be promoting the new Spawn Cartoon."

If he does, I hope we get some reports back from The Gathering about that as well. Though I've never read a single issue of the comic (unless you count a 3-issue "Medieval Spawn/Witchblade" crossover mini-series like a decade ago), I was a huge fan of the animated HBO series. Well, of its first and most of its second season, at least. The first season is a perfectly constructed, creepy, touchingly sad, very well acted example of North American cartoon brilliance. I also was pretty pleased with its animation quality, personally The 2-hour movie that counts as its Season 3 was pretty horrible though. The entire series is out in a nice little boxed set.

Do you know if they're continuing from where they left off, or is this new Spawn cartoon a reboot?

Phoenix >> Rest assured that everyone in this comment room and among other Gargoyles online communities did their best to support Season 2 Volume 1 (within reason. Even those who HAVE "extra" money can't be expected to wanna spend more of it on Gargoyles and buy extra copies). And many are still doing what they can. From what I can see, the effort's definitely been put in.

A lot of people weren't big fans of the Season 2 cover art either. I came to hate it a little less after I had the case in hand and stared at it for a bit, but it's still awfully mediocre-drawn-comic-book-like and nowhere near as respectable as Season 1's. Though you could argue that Season 1 wasn't as flashy and attention-getting as it should've been, being the initial release to kick of a DVD franchise and being the first of Disney's TV-shows-on-DVD.
Kris - [Ontario, Canada]
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 1:34:44 am EST from 69.17.169.178

BrooksBabe> Don't even start. I've been crying a river of tears since 3:00 PM... :(
Battle Beast - [Canada]
go. Canada, go.
posted @ Thu, Feb 23, 2006 12:20:43 am EST from 198.53.28.99

Matt: I can't imagine Owen living outside the Eyrie building. His job is very demanding, and I think he needs to be close at hand at all times. Consider that most of the episodes of Gargoyles take place at night, often late at night, and yet he's always there. For instance, in Enter Macbeth, when the gargoyles break in to take the Grimorum, and Owen's ready to defend it. Later, he's still there, dutifully cleaning up (I always thought there was something weird about Xanatos's personal aide on hands and knees with a dustpan sweeping up broken glass- doesn't anyone else work there?). So, no, I think it's pretty clear that Owen stays in the building, or even the castle.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 10:44:34 pm EST from 68.58.253.131

Jonny: Your concern is, I think, appreciated, as we all want to see Volume 2 come out. But, as I'm sure any chick will tell you, never underestimate the power of the period. Just a helpful hint. ( ;


I just watched "Upgrade" on my DVD, and noticed something funny in the first act. Sadly, I can't think of where I'd find a screen shot, but there was a scene where Dingo didn't have his moustache. It was when they were on the roof of the bank, and Dingo is telling Wolf that "if we take down Goliath, this fight is ours." We should at least see the corner of his moustache in the shot, but it looks gone. Unless the animation team just made it flesh-colored, much like the staff responsible for "Sanctuary" just made Demona's brow ridges gold-colored in Act III.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Teamwork is so overrated." -Thailog.
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 9:19:43 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

I am worried about that I want Gargoyles Season Two, Volume Two to come out on DVD that will contain the final 26 episodes and I read on the forums that the DVD sales for Gargoyles Season Two, Volume One on DVD will pick up when the comic book arrives and read on Disney Animation forums that people should spread the word about Gargoyles Season Two, Volume One on DVD like buy copies at Amazon.com, stores, convince relatives, families, and friends to support in order to get Season Two, Volume Two on DVD released. Thank you.
Jonny Modlin
Jonathan Modlin
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 8:58:19 pm EST from 24.44.53.156

I just read the journal of the Gargoyles fan club that I am apart of on DeviantArt.com. I read there, the quote coming directly from here, that Season 2, Vol @ is in jeopardy due to low sales of Season 2, Vol 1..WHERE ARE YOU GUYS?! Honestly, the fact that it has a higher price is fair enough, it comes with 3 discs not two..and I honestly think that the box and dvd case is alot better looking..but that's just my opinion. I did not go out and get it RIGHT away when I seen it, due to the fact that I had bills to pay first. But, first chance I got when I acutally had the money I bought it..above anything else that I was wanting. Since I first came across Gargoyles some years ago, it's been a priority of mine, above alot of other things I collect. But, like many things, I do not really go terribly out of my way to collect memorabilia and such, mainly beause thats more money than I have. I just let it come to me by chance...it's more surprising that way. Anywho...I don't know about anyone else out there (though I am sure many will agree), I will be seriously displeased and disappointed if Vol 2 does not come out. I will hold nothing agains Greg or any of the other makers. I guess I will hold it against those who were honestly too lazy to support this cause. As Greg said, don't put your other life needs in jeopardy like bills, food, what not..but if you DO have the money...then why not?
Other than that I LOVE GARGOYLES!!!! ^.^
Phoenix - [shugotenshi_sama@yahoo.com]
~Phoenix~
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 5:34:30 pm EST from 206.222.198.12

Battle Beast > You picked a bad day to gloat about the US being kicked out of hockey... :(
BrooksBabe
Alas, Canada's chance at hockey gold is done....
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 5:03:49 pm EST from 130.63.229.88

speaking of Owen. do you think he lives in the Eyrie with the Xanatos' or do you suppose he has his own apartment somewhere in NYC?

*imagines Owen going grocery shopping*
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Let us all bask in television's warm glowing warming glow." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 4:43:24 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Bishansky: Technically, matt's comment did have to do with gargoyles. But you did use the magic word, which sadly, has become as rare as a smoking gargoyle. Hmm, now there's a thought for fanart.


Anyway, before thoughts of the Goliath Chronicles or Demona's measurements come into my head (I was actually pondering the latter last night when I was watching "Temptation" on my DVD, trying to figure out her waist size), there's something else I've been puzzling over after reading Greg's latest responses. This actually came to me when I was typing my synopsis for "The Gathering, Part Two." I was wondering if Owen also revealed his true self to Xanatos between 1991 and 1994. I have an idea on when Demona and Xanatos were introduced. I'd wager, at the very latest, sometime in 1993. So what I'm wondering is how long Owen had worked for Xanatos when he revealed himself and gave Xanatos that famous choice.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Teamwork is so overrated." -Thailog.
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 1:43:00 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

Ah thanks Leo, that's a funny movie:)
curling...*Snicker*..sorry ;)
I haven't even watched any of the Olympics...
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 1:40:22 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

So how about Canada at the Olympics today??? THREE medals today! The US, out of Hockey!

Sorry, I'm just gloating. I'm happy!!!


... ...

(But we did loose at curling...)
Battle Beast - [Canada]
GO CANADA GO!!!
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 1:31:22 pm EST from 198.53.28.99

Can we change the topic, please?

The Cuban cigar comment was meant to be part of a fun little post announcing that we have Keith David.

Not for everyone to air their personal views on smoking.

Let's get back to talking about Gargoyles, please.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 12:15:13 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Matt: I don't know, maybe I'm just playing off stereotypes, but I'm inclined to think that if Griff were to smoke, it would be a pipe. But other than that, yeah. I don't think there's anything wrong with a cigar or pipe every now and then, but I'd never take up cigarette smoking.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"It's not shameful to be illiterate. It's only a shame to stay that way." -Jeffrey Robbins.
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 12:00:14 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

PurpleGoldfish> The line "Rent-a-cops. I hate rent-a-cops, too" is from "Men at Work"

Another great line from that movie is "The COMMIE BASTARD GETS NO FOOD!" XD
Leo
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 11:35:24 am EST from 68.107.154.71

I would never smoke. Lost too many family members to them. My grandmother always has a tube up her nose because she was a smoker. Its not pleasent to watch family die because of a stupid habit.

But I 9 out of 10 of my friends are smokers. They are polite with me when they smoke. They don't let the wind carry the smoke in my face, open the car windows, and never smoke around my daughter. They all know how I feel about smoking. But I'd never pressure them to stop, just as much as they won't pressure me to start. They are so good of friends that ignoring their habit is easy for me.
Siren
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 10:21:22 am EST from 65.33.112.205

It's nothing personal, but I hate ALL smokers. It's disgusting, vile, putrid, and... icky. And my feeling is that, why would want to pay someone else big bucks to kill yourself?

If you want to, go right ahead... you can do what ever you wnat; but I'm gonna tell you every single time I see you that you shouldn't be doing it. It's up to you, of course, but it's still the most disgusting thing I can think of that humans WILLINGLY ingest. Carbon Monoxide? Hydrogen Cyanide??? No thank you, I'd rather breathe.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
GO CANADA GO!!!
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 10:06:33 am EST from 198.53.28.99

i wonder if any of the gargs will take up smoking...

i can easily see Griff smoking. i love Griff and i hate cigarettes, but it seems somewhat natural for him to smoke.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Let us all bask in television's warm glowing warming glow." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 8:48:38 am EST from 24.182.146.1

i wonder if any of the gargs will take up smoking...

i can easily see Griff smoking. i love Griff and i hate cigarettes, but it seems somewhat natural for him to smoke.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Let us all bask in television's warm glowing warming glow." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 8:46:50 am EST from 24.182.146.1

Keith David smokes cigarettes, too, and drinks expensive vodka. I know, because I bought a round of vodka in Montreal and he smoked a cigarette while I talked to him. He's a big fan of Canada; thought about buying a cottage up here, from what I recall.

Classy guy.
Whitbourne
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 5:40:29 am EST from 142.167.219.124

Generally cigar smoking is a very different activity than smoking cigarettes. For one, it's not really addictive and only done during special occasions. For another, you don't actually inhale them. Unlike cigarettes where you have people smoking packs a day, and inhaling.

I am a former smoker, and it is a very filthy habit.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 2:59:03 am EST from 65.33.202.237

oops, forgot Greg B's comment there..

where's that dang edit button?
Starlioness - [starlion3@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 2:54:00 am EST from 70.58.67.109

Keith David smokes? where did you hear that? can't imagine him going GRRR!! *Hack!* *Hack!* (shakes head*
Starlioness - [starlion3@yahoo.com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 2:51:15 am EST from 70.58.67.109

I wonder if Keith will being promoting the new Spawn Cartoon.
#
posted @ Wed, Feb 22, 2006 12:39:59 am EST from 66.71.80.73

PREVIOUSLY, IN THE GARGOYLES COMMENT ROOM...

2003, three years ago this week...
Enigma was first!
A pretty slow week, including a period of nearly 2 days where no posts were made at all!
Despite the slowness a few topics were discussed. Everyone seemed to have a story to tell about how much winter weather they had experienced and how much snow/ice they were faced with. The looming Iraq War was talked about, and what the Clan would think of it came up. We also talked about King Arthur's Journey following AVALON. Most of the talk of the week focused on the idea of the stereotypical traditional superhero.
Quote: "Damn, here comes the blizzard." -Vash

2004, two years ago this week...
Nickerous was first!!!
A very busy week, no pause for more than a couple hours at a time. A lot of the talk had to do with Xanatos, his morality, his relationship to his three "sons" (Alex, Thailog and Cyoti), his morality (or lack thereof), and his future. The future of Disney also came up as we discussed who was in charge of Disney, and who should be in charge. We talked about the hoped for revival of Gargoyles and how best it should happen, ironically, comics got the most attention. Many of the regulars actually voiced opinions that a Gargoyles comic wasn't likely to happen or work. Guess they were wrong.
Quote: "Keep Disney pure!!!" - Battle Beast

2005, one year ago this week...
Brian was 1st!!!
A very busy week. Its sad that the busiest weeks tend to have a lot of fighting. The smolders of the big fight from several weeks before were stoked up again and the homosexuality in Gargoyles argument flared up again, esspecially in the second half of the week. In fact, more than half the posts were made in the last two days before the room cleared. The week started calmly enough with discussion of Star Trek and the current TV environment. This led to conversations (again) about Gargoyles coming back. The only in-universe topic was concerning Gargoyle biology, specifically their egg and birthing process. The gay argument dominated the week though, and unsurprisingly, it was centered around Brian, the same newbie who had started the argument several weeks before.
Quote: "You are entitled to your opinion. Just keep your nasty comments to yourself." - Chameleongirl

to end on a positive note, it seems to me that the room has gotten more active over the years, not less, and thats encouraging...
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Let us all bask in television's warm glowing warming glow." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 11:59:14 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Keith David can sing??
"I hate rent-a-cops too" LOL oh what movie was that from? It was on tv a few weeks ago, but I tuned in towards the middle.

Whiny moment time...*Cries* I Wanna gooooo to the Gathering!!!! *sniff* Damn my pathetic no-job having self :*(

Do the guests get paid for making an appearance? If not, they are SO awesome. Unlike Marina Sirtis...but I'll not discuss my thoughts on that..

language and Avalon: I'm pretty sure I read something by Greg that said that the magic of Avalon allows all travellers to and from to understand all languages they come in contact with (such as the travellers speaking with the Ishimura clan). So I'm guessing that also applies to the avalon gargs, katharine and tom.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 11:37:03 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

Sorry for the double post, but I meant to say in the last one that it looks like I might have gotten a friend of mine to buy the DVD. One of those people who I invited to join my Facebook group who apparently didn't know that the DVD was out.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 11:14:54 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

Keith David should know better than to smoke. What's he wanna do, ruin that magnificent voice of his?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 11:04:52 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

Siryn : Yeah, I noticed that. They aren't exactly identical, but they're pretty darn close.
Spen
"There are three kinds of people; those who can't count, and those who can." - Wilek Nereus
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 10:07:41 pm EST from 216.248.119.208

And in other news, when I'm excited, my grammar sucks.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 8:33:21 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Got a teeny, tiny, little Gathering update for you all.

Guess who we got? I'll give you a few hints. He's got an amazing singing voice. He voiced two gargoyles and a cop. The only thing he hates worse than cops is rent-a-cops. And I smoked a Cuban Cigar with him in Montreal.

That's right folks, Keith David is coming to the Gathering.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 8:27:43 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

If you listen to the commentary on City of Stone on the second DVD, Michael Reeves explains the language issue. (At least with the gargoyles versus the normal world.) Maybe you could say that Avalon effects the language spoken so that everyone can understand each other. Especially when you have faye from all over the world coming to the island. :)

Speaking of, watching City of Stone, at Macbeth's coronation, there are two very FAMILIAR looking character designs that look like Princess Katherine & Tom in the background scene.
Siryn - [siryn7@aol.com]
Watching the gargoyles and going to the convention....you are too right?
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 8:25:27 pm EST from 65.185.9.61

Language: I'm going with the idea, at least on Avalon, there is a "spell" that allows for comprehension, despite the language differences. Might fudge on newer words, but the idea gets across with a bit more clarity. (I put spell in quotations because I want to say there was a mention of Avalon having its own magic, not just tied to Oberon's Children).
Asatira
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 8:18:44 pm EST from 66.168.244.117

D. Taina: I just read the synopsis of "Ransom" you did for the Gargoyles fansite. Bravo. I think you did it far more justice than I ever could. To think I was actually going to take it seriously. If you'd like me to relieve you of some of the load, I'd be willing to take a few of the synopses off your hands. Hell, out of gratitude for sparing me "Ransom", you can give me "A Bronx Tail," if you'd like. Anyway, you know how to contact me.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"It's not shameful to be illiterate. It's only a shame to stay that way." -Jeffrey Robbins.
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 5:09:10 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

You know, the language issue is just something we need to roll with. It's a cheat, but it's a more than acceptable cheat.
Greg Bishansky - [Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 4:44:32 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

maybe the language didn't CHANGE their language it ADDED ours... or something. that still doesn't explain why Elisa can talk to Katherine and Tom and Magus.
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Let us all bask in television's warm glowing warming glow." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 4:37:19 pm EST from 24.182.146.1

Thanks Kythera! I posted over there :)
Siren
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 3:27:12 pm EST from 65.33.112.205

Yeah. I do have to agree with what Alex said. However, I do think that Goliath at least would have a better understanding of Latin. After all, his teacher was Demona, and we all know who her teacher was. But as for the rest of the clan, Brooklyn even says at one point that his Latin is a bit rusty. I also imagine that if there were words in more modern texts that they stumbled with, I think Elisa could fill in the blanks for them. In "Thrill of the Hunt," for example, she explained to Goliath what it means when someone is convicted using words that he'd probably understand. In most cases, that could extend into literature.

Speaking of which, I think my favorite example of the spell's inability to translate modern text was when the clan tried to grasp the word "detective" in "Awakening." I mean, back in 994, law enforcement agencies as we know them did not exist.

As far as Avalon is concerned, yeah, I'm wondering how Tom was able to communicate with Morgan. I can see Goliath communicating with them, since he'd probably still understand the old dialects of Gaelic (having spoken them for almost 60 years before he was turned to stone), and the rest of the Manhattan clan being able to communicate with Angela, but for Elisa, it should have been more difficult. Ah, well. The narrative in the first 66 episodes was put together so well, but even in shows as well constructed as that, there's guaranteed to be some faux pas. The way they meshed so many varying elements together into the storyline that they did makes me willing to suspend disbelief over something like languages.

By the way, I was just wondering: does it matter where we pick up the Gargoyles DVD? I was in Best Buy earlier, picking up a birthday present for a friend, and I noticed that they had a few copies of Gargoyles Season 2 Volume 1 (which surprised me, since they never carried Season 1). So I grabbed one. I just hope it helps.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"It's not shameful to be illiterate. It's only a shame to stay that way." -Jeffrey Robbins.
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 12:46:29 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

Jurgan>> Idioms certainly (e.g., Hudson not understanding what Elisa meant by "Hit the sack"), but even *words* themselves.

When Goliath saw Xanatos' television, he didn't immediately think, "Oh, that's a television"; he saw it and *could not* describe it in a single word that we have because there was no Gaelic word for "television" that the spell could translate for him.

Then try to explain to him how it works!

Even before idioms come in, the gargoyles have to learn the words which make them; and given that English has evolved greatly since 994, and given that it even by 994 it was no where near the same Indo-European branch as Celtic, and given that our society is so vastly different from theirs, it's a certainty that the gargoyles were encountering a multitude of words that were just beyond them to understand initially.

But, yeah, by the Avalon encounter, the explanation for the spell really does fall apart. Suspension of disbelief has to kick in.
Alex Garg
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 12:11:25 pm EST from 216.145.68.246

I think what you're referring to are idioms. Idioms cannot be directly translated, and so they have to be learned. However, I've mostly given up on trying to understand the language thing and just accepted it as a storytelling cheat. The "Demona cast a spell" explanation seems good enough, until you remember that the Magus, Katherine, Tom, and all the Avalonian gargoyles (including Angela after returning to the outside world) speak English well enough, and I don't see how Demona's spell could have affected them.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 11:13:05 am EST from 68.58.253.131

Harvester of Eyes>> http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=765

From my understanding of Greg's descriptions of the spell Demona cast, it "revernacularized" [totally not a real word] the clan's vocabulary; so what would have been Gaelic as the clan's common language in the 10th century was replaced by 20th century modern English.

Just *poof*. Their linguistics and their literary comprehension was adjusted.

And I doubt that Latin was a vernacular language of the clan. It probably only was known to them in elevated literature and the Grimorum, and they would have to study it to understand it, as they would have to study it in the 20th century.

But even in "Temptation" Goliath was struggling with some modern terms, so the spell didn't do a full modernization. I believe that when he heard Brooklyn use "Cool" for the first time, he actually thought he was making an off reference to the temperature. Joyriding? Completely non-existent in 10th century Scotland, in both concept (well, it *maybe* could have been conceived in terms of taking great pleasure in horseback riding) and construction, and the spell could not account for it.

Some words and phrases as we understand them just didn't exist 1,000 years ago to come over cleanly into our vocabulary, and the clan had to learn them; but the spell gave them a good enough foundation to read English *if* they were literate in 10th century Scotland.
Alex Garg
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 10:35:58 am EST from 216.145.68.246

Siren-- Yes, there is a music video contest. I believe we're working on getting more information posted for you guys, so keep an eye out for that. There was also a bit of discussion about music videos going on in the Gathering forum:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/phpBB2/
Kythera of Anevern
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature" - Inkubus Sukkubus
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 10:34:15 am EST from 24.126.11.120

I'm just wondering, because I've tried to search the archives, and no matter how I word my search, I can't seem to get less than 1,000 results. Has Greg ever said where Goliath learned to read? I'm assuming that he knew how back in the 10th Century (my guess is that Demona, being a sorceror's apprentice, might have taught him a few things. About reading, I mean).

If that's the case, I remember hearing on the "City of Stone" commentary that the reason the gargoyles can communicate verbally with Xanatos and other humans in the 20th Century (after sleeping through 1,000 years of changing dialects) was through the use of magic. If Goliath could read in the 10th Century, I'm betting that a lot of the written text he would have read would have been Gaelic or Latin. And in "The Edge," we see him quite comfortably reading a book in more modern English. If it was through a spell that Goliath and the rest of the clan can communicate through speech, would such a spell also be the reason that a gargoyle could also read more modern dialects of printed word?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"But I believe in this and it's been tested by research: He who f*cks nuns will later join the church." -The only band that really matters.
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 10:13:21 am EST from 69.174.3.196

Greg, you guys having a music video contest?
Siren
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 9:33:27 am EST from 65.33.112.205

Thanks for the Gathering News post, Bishansky, but, one little thing (actually, I don't know who this should be directed to, since I don't know who wrote that piece):

[every MacBeth needs a Demona]

The proper spelling is "Macbeth" rather than "MacBeth". Can we *not* encourage the incorrect spelling, please?
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 6:38:12 am EST from 4.244.214.122

*looks at the HUGE post in red that requires scrolling to read through*

Cool. Crispin Freeman's coming!

I'm REALLY surprised that there was only one entry in the T-Shirt contest. O_O
Leo
posted @ Tue, Feb 21, 2006 12:18:28 am EST from 68.107.154.71

I am not sure how many of you have checked, but that pic of Goliath by Hedgecock on DA has been removed. I wonder if it was SLG who asked him to remove it.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 10:00:33 pm EST from 66.71.80.73

GATHERING NEWS!

NEW GUESTS:

The Gathering staff is pleased to announce the addition of Dan Vado, David Hedgecock, and Crispin Freeman to the guest roster for the Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles. Dan Vado is the Owner and President of Slave Labor Graphics, the publisher of the new "Gargoyles" comic book, and David Hedgecock is the pencil artist working on the book. Crispin Freeman, who also joined us at the Gathering 2001, is a voice actor who has appeared in numerous Animé titles, including the voice of Alucard in the English dub of "Hellsing."

To view the full Gathering 2006 guest list, please visit:
http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/guests.html

There will be many unique opportunities to mingle with the guests. Some will be sign-up events, with first-come, first-serve availability. All will require you to be a member of Gathering of the Gargoyles to participate. Don't miss out. Register now!

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/registration.html

MASCOT NAMING CONTEST:

There's a new gargoyle in town, and he still needs a name! We have received only a few entries, so we are extending the deadline for "Name the Mascot" contest entries to March 1, 2006. The winning mascot name will be selected by The Gathering 2006 convention staff from among all of the entries received. The contest winner will receive as a prize their choice of a Gathering 2006 T-shirt or a copy of the Grimorum Arcanorum Anthology. For details, please visit:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/mascot.html

T-SHIRT CONTEST:

The Gathering Staff wishes to acknowledge Abbie Sulik, age 13, who submitted the only entry we received for the Gathering 2006 T-shirt Contest. Abbie will receive a special t-shirt featuring her design in thanks for her participation.

ANTHOLOGY CONTEST:

The Gathering of the Gargoyles is proud to present, once again, an anthology of all-new and original fan work! Following up on 2004's Phoenix Gate Anthology and 2005's Eye of Odin Anthology, we're completing the trilogy with the third infamous artifact in the set… the Grimorum Arcanorum!

For over a thousand years, this ancient tome has made its way into the hands of one villain after another and caused untold mischief with its magic. But where did it come from? Who else has thumbed its fragile pages over the centuries? What spells and secret lore are contained within its leather binding?

The time has come to answer some of those questions. And you can help! The Grimorum Arcanorum Anthology is accepting submissions of stories and artwork to appear in a limited-edition paperback book that will debut at the Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, California.

Deadlines for entries are March 31, 2006 for stories and April 15, 2006 for artwork. For complete rules and guidelines, please visit:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/anthology.html

ART SHOW:

Hey folks! There is still room left at the Gathering art show! Want to strut your artistic stuff? This is the place to do it! The Gathering Art Show has been a highlight of every Gathering since they began. Worried that your art is not up to par? Don't worry. We accept every level and style of art you may offer us. In fact, we LOVE seeing variety! It's a wonderful way to not only to get your art seen but to meet other artists in the fandom, get some advice on technique, and - best of all - make new friends who share a hobby that you love. Know some artists friends who can't come to Gathering? We also accept entries by mail! Table and panel space is still available for a $10 fee. Want to try something a bit more spicy? Do you love to enter the AMGC? This year, we will again have an adult art section dedicated to the more racy pictures of the fandom. Only those attendees who are 18 years of age and older will be allowed to enter this category and view the art displayed. More information can be found here:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/art-show.html

MASQURADE

There are four months left until the Gathering. Do you know who you want to be? The Gathering Masquerade is quickly approaching us. Are you still having trouble finding ideas? Well, there are many ways to help this! First, watch Gargoyles Season 2 on DVD for inspiration. Don't have a copy yet? You can easily purchase one at out Gathering web site! Already done that? Well the Gathering forum has a thread dedicated to cosplay in our contest area.

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/phpBB2/

Find a group! Go as a pair or trio! Every Fox needs a Xanatos; every MacBeth needs a Demona; and of course, every Selene needs a Luna and Phoebe. Bouncing ideas off of other fans is always a wonderful way to get inspired. Still not sure? This link here on Gargoyles Cosplay should get your creative juices flowing:

http://avmists.gargoyles-fans.org/803/costume.html

At past Gatherings, the more obscure characters got the most attention. So stretch your minds and lets make this the biggest and best masquerade there ever was! More information can be found here:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/masquerade.html

HELP PROMOTE THE GATHERING:

We don't want a single "Gargoyles" fan to be unaware of The Gathering 2006, and we're looking for a few good fans to help us spread the word! If you will be attending a convention in the near future, please let us know about it and take a few copies our flyer along. To download the flyer, please visit:
http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/flyers/gathering-flyer.pdf

If you have a web site, Livejournal, or regularly post to message boards, there's another way you can help! Just choose a banner
graphic or link button from our web site, download it, and add it to your web page, online journal, or message board signature line. For details, visit:

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/links.html

GARGOYLES SEASON 2 on DVD:

On December 6, 2005, "Gargoyles" Season 2, Volume 1 became available on DVD. This 3-disc box set includes the first 26 episodes of the second season, from "Leader of the Pack" through "Kingdom." It also includes an audio commentary on all four parts of "City of Stone" by Greg Weisman, Frank Paur and Michael Reaves; episode introductions by Greg Weisman; and the Gathering of the Cast and Crew featurette.

If you haven't already purchased your copy of the DVD, you can help support The Gathering 2006 by ordering through Amazon.com by way of
the link on our web site.

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/

DATES TO REMEMBER:

March 31, 2006 - The last day to take advantage of the current membership rates of $45.00 for adults and $25.00 for children ages 10
through 14 (accompanied by an adult).

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/registration.html

March 31, 2006 - Deadline for story entries in the Grimorum Arcanorum Anthology Contest.
April 15, 2006 - Deadline for art entries in the Grimorum Arcanorum
Anthology Contest.

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/anthology.html

May 22, 2006 - Deadline for hotel reservations at the Hyatt Valencia to receive the Gathering's discounted block rate.

June 3, 2006 - Deadline for Art Show Registration

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2006/art-show.html

June 23 - 25, 2006 - The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles.


Questions? Comments? Contact us at: staff@gatheringofthegargoyles.com

- The Gathering 2006 Staff
Greg Bishansky - [Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 8:35:49 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Warcrafter - Oh... we've only just begun. :) This year... we go above and beyond. We are just posting them slowly so you don't have a heart attack from all the excitement. >:)

Kris - No one is alone when they are with their clan. :)

Christine - Give em hell! Shake those stories out of them!
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 6:07:53 pm EST from 71.129.50.91

Warcrafter >> That'd be Bender from Futurama (getting some continuation in the form of direct-to-DVD movies later this year!)

Man, The Gathering 2006 looks like it's shaping up to be one of the biggest yet. I'll make it one of them eventually. I should've gone to Montreal's a couple years ago, but I was still only JUST refamiliarizing myself with the franchise then...plus I didn't wanna go alone.
Kris - [Ontario, Canada]
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 4:28:50 pm EST from 69.17.169.178

Wow, three new people have been added to the guest list for the gathering and they represent the upcoming Gargoyles comic books. The list keeps getting bigger and BIGGER and the gathering still isnt for another 4 months.

Who Is It: "Bite my shiny metal ass"
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"There's an evil monkey in my closet!"
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 4:11:58 pm EST from 69.234.8.165

:: peeks in ::

Hey, folks. Just another reminder, those deadlines for the Grimorum Anthology continue to creep inexorably closer! To those of you already diligently at work on your submissions, I love you and look forward to seeing them! To those still dragging your feet, don't make me come over there! ;)
Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 10:42:38 am EST from 71.112.172.65

*low whistle*
Wow...last week was...interesting.

*waves to all the people she knows, and friendly waves to the newbies she doesn't*

DVD> Me personally, I plan on buying copies for all of my friends. They will get a copy and ENJOY IT. >;D (Unfortunately, they're too far away to drag to a gathering...so this will have to do)

Avalon Mists> Just for the 411 on Avalon Mists, I haven't been in charge of it for a while. I handed the reins over to other fans. I'm trying to get my life in order at the moment, so a lot of project's I've worked on in the past have been handed off etc. (Right now the only Garg related thing I'm doing is working on staff with the Gathering 2006. (In which you should *ALL* GO TO! :))

So umm...I can't help with avalon mists questions, sorry. ^_^;; If I can get personal stuff straightened out, maybe I'll take a crack at Av Mists agin...but not right now. @.@;;

But man..have I missed this place and you guys!! *HUGS all around*
Siryn - [siryn7@aol.com]
You will buy Season 2 Volume 1, You will go to the Gathering 2006, and you will buy the Garg comic...cause this..is what fans do.
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 8:51:17 am EST from 65.185.9.61

SPACEBABIE - That must have been a good episode; I certainly wish that I'd seen it. Thanks for telling me about it.
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 7:42:01 am EST from 4.244.211.173

I think I got tenth. But the coffee hasn't set in yet, so I'm not sure.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Harvester of Eyes, that's me! And I see all there is to see!"
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 4:38:45 am EST from 69.174.3.196

Sorry for the double post. It's actually spelled *Jacques Doumani*
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"There's an evil monkey in my closet!"
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 1:29:55 am EST from 69.234.8.165

(I posted this near the end of last week, which was about a few hours ago so I figured that was a bad idea. Here it is again)

Well, no luck this weekend on trying to get people to buy a copy of S2 V1, I was busy with my bowling leagues and Yu-Gi-Oh! regionals along with a lot of schoolwork. Since I have no school tomorrow I'll make up for the weekend. Anyway, this really has nothing to do with Gargoyles but I have been accepted into this really good acting school, Jacquest Doumani, for six weeks and WHEN I pass the class, I can audition for commercials, then in the future tv shows, then possibly make it to the big screen. Who knows, maybe when I become a successful actor and if there's a Gargoyles movie, I'll have a part in it. :)

Name the Movie: The Waterboy

Name the Character: "Re..he..he.heeeeeeeeeeeeeeallyyyyyyyyyy" "Alllllllllllll riiiightyyyyy then"
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"There's an evil monkey in my closet!"
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 1:28:27 am EST from 69.234.8.165

That was the same character in "The Batman" and "Batman: TAS". His name was Maximillion Zeus and is based of a Batman Villian from the late 70's, who believed himself to be the god Zeus. He escaped Arkham during the Knightfall story arc, and died eventually in a Wonder Woman story.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 12:46:35 am EST from 66.71.80.73

9th
oneuke
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 12:39:58 am EST from 69.3.212.103

I meant 8th sorry!

Greg, Alex, Jen, I love you guys, but you already know that.

Todd>>>I don't watch The Batman, but I remember an episdoe from Batman TAS that had a character who thought he was Zeus. When he was brought to Arkam he compared several of the other villains to the Gods. Poison Ivy=Demeter, Two Face=Janus...etc
Spacebabie - [spacebabie@hotmail.com]
"People are like stars. There are bright ones, and then there are those who are dim." ~Hot Ice Hilda
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 12:33:59 am EST from 70.185.6.104

7th
Spacebabie - [spacebabie@hotmail.com]
"People are like stars. There are bright ones, and then there are those who are dim." ~Hot Ice Hilda
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 12:29:49 am EST from 70.185.6.104

A number that shall be established at a later date.
#
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 12:15:33 am EST from 66.71.80.73

6th!
Kaylle - [kaylle at ladyavalon.com]
www.GargoylesDVD.com
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 12:14:37 am EST from 18.80.5.108

5th!

Attack of the n00bs (err...n00b) will hopefully be over now. o.o
Siren
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 12:10:09 am EST from 65.33.112.205

4th!!
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 12:06:28 am EST from 63.232.255.155

I guess there's is tie...
kjay - [tigonesskay@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 12:04:09 am EST from 24.45.58.246

Fourth!
Greg Bishansky - [<------ Clickie clickie]
But remember parents, the lesson is, don't let your children go out on hunting trips with the Vice President. Because he will shoot them in the face.
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 12:02:33 am EST from 65.33.202.237

2nd!
and I'm out of the army!just finished my 3 years!
kjay
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 12:02:10 am EST from 24.45.58.246

2nd in the name of looming Zoology tests...
matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Let us all bask in television's warm glowing warming glow." -Homer Simpson
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 12:01:16 am EST from 24.182.146.1

1st
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"There's an evil monkey in my closet!"
posted @ Mon, Feb 20, 2006 12:00:24 am EST from 69.234.8.165