Dragon Ball Z in a nutshell:

I'm a Saiya-jin and I fight all day
It's hard work but I'm okay
All's I do is fight, fight, fight
From morn to noon and noon to night
I'll kick your ass, and slap yo mamas
I'll hurt you dressed in pink pajamas
My hair sticks up and I glow gold
And I'm a LEVEL ELEVENTY MILLION SUPER SAIYA-JIN!!! OMFG YAYE!!!

Dragomir, you don't seem to be stating any facts. It appears that, mostly, you are stating *wishes* - what you want to see as opposed to what is going to happen/has happened (and all we know is what we saw in the show itself, or what tidbits he revealed in Ask Greg).

And I wouldn't *assume* anything on what is going to happen in the comic; we'll know what happens when it comes out, and assuming anything (and subsequently saying that what you assume is a FACT) is a Bad Thing.

What you want, and what is going to happen can be two very different things.
The Sadistic Cow - [kharrigan@imseeingatherapist.com]
Constant vigilance!
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 11:57:29 pm EDT from 69.157.4.24

Greg B: Your hands seem to be tied, you want me to fix this for you? Talk to me via e-mail or IM sometime, we'll discuss terms. I'll give you a discount. ( ;

Dragomir: I don't think Xanatos will violate his truce with the gargoyles. At least not in any ways that could bring them to harm. I think he is sincere about his debt of gratitude, but character-wise, he's going to remain a scheming bastard. Which, I think, is the way we all want him.

And as far as this whole Demona business is concerned, I'm sorry, but in the cases of facts vs. opinions, facts always win. You're being presented with something concrete, things cited from the creator. Out of curiosity, are you saying that you haven't been reading any of the links that they've provided? If not, then it doesn't make much sense to debate.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"We like you have tasted love, don't be alarmed at what you see. You yourself are just the same as what you see in me." [cue Tony Banks on the moog]
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 11:52:54 pm EDT from 69.174.3.196

I'm pretty sure Frank Paur refers to Gargoyles as American Anime on one of the DVD commentaries, just thought I'd throw that out there.

The only anime I've ever enjoyed is Princess Mononoke. The rest bores the hell out of me. Or outright annoys me. Much like Dragomir's last post...

Dragomir> "but even you have to admit that its a bit early to start thinking about spin offs at this point. I don't cite the spin off series because they'll never be made unless the new comic is big hit..."
-If I'm not mistaken Greg W has been thinking about the spinoffs since 1995 or earlier. Sure the only things that are canon are the 66 episodes, but I've noticed you like to pick and choose from the other material on what you'll accept and what you won't. For instance, you won't accept the G:2198 spinoff material but you accept that Thailog survives the fire and there will be an UltraPack. Why are you picky about certain things? Could it be that you don't care much for the storytelling as long as you get to see what you want happen?
"...but I suspect that Demona's ultimate redemption or damnation will be sped up a bit for the new comic series..."
- You assume too much. The series was cancelled 10 years ago. If Greg is told the comic will be cancelled after 6 issues I highly doubt he would rush any character development and sacrifice storytelling just to make a pretty ending. That kinda crap was done with "TGC" and look at how most fans view that crap. Greg W will never close a story arc until the charcters close it themselves. And Demona is a long way off from closing her story arc. I imagine that Demona will outlive the fans and outlive the fandom. Demona will continue to be an amazingly complex character and Greg would never strip her of that, esspecially in a rush.

Dragomir, I'm trying to be nice, but you are seriously bugging me now. If you want the series to end "just so" then go write it out and read it to yourself whenever you feel like reading a predictable character story. If you'd rather continue to experience an interesting realistic series then stop dumbing down characters and hoping for a destruction of plots, its annoying. Greg has made it clear that Demona will not be redeemed until AT LEAST 2198. Thats not going to change, so get over it. Demona is a tragic character, so get over it. Demona is her own worst enemy, so get over it. Demona loves Angela, but she hates humanity more, so get over it. Maybe instead of trying to destroy Demona's character you can talk about how you hope she eventually dies a noble death, how you hope she does eventually redeem herself and repents, how you hope there IS hope for Demona. We all think so, just not in the near future...

When Demona wipes out humanity, I really hope she starts with the Demona apologists.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people." -Unknown
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 10:56:38 pm EDT from 150.201.114.132

I TOTALLY agree with you Demonskrye... I don't like the "American Anime" term either. Though I tent to be a bit biased, I dislike anime.
In fact I feel that Gargoyles has a lot more in common with some of the older Disney movies than anime.
And hey, in Gargoyles we never see giant sweat drops, inflated heads, deflated or swirly eyes, sudden loss of nose ect...(Thank God ;))
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 10:31:46 pm EDT from 205.188.117.68

American Anime> This term being applied to "Gargoyles" kind of bugs me. There is a certain amount of legitimacy to it, as the show was animated overseas, partly in Japan. But to call it "American Anime" because of its content strikes me as unintentionaly derogatory to a lot of American animation. Yes, "Gargoyles" has some qualities in common with Japanese animated TV shows. It also had some things in common with other American animated TV shows, live action TV shows, comic books, and various other forms of storytelling. I don't feel that "Gargoyles" is closer kin to anime than anything else. I think it has more in common with a good American animated TV show than a bad Japanese animated TV show, and remember, there are PLENTY of bad anime TV shows. The term "American Anime" is better reserved for something like "Teen Titans", which is very obviously and intentionally drawing on the stereotypical anime style while still being largely produced stateside. "Gargoyles" isn't good because it's like anime. It's good because it's good.
Demonskrye
It's just good
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 9:48:43 pm EDT from 209.6.250.47

Oh Crap! Never mind I didn't pay attention to the last part of your post Kythera! Sorry guys!
April - [violet_twister8@yahoo.com]
Bye-bye for now.
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 9:17:57 pm EDT from 65.134.17.147

Oh! Okay! Thanks Kythera (sorry if I spelled that wrong).

Hmmm...here's another question now (I swear this'll be the last one for now :) )

What exactly is the Difference between an American "cartoon" and an American "Anime. Or am I just confused?
April - [violet_twister8@yahoo.com]
Bye-bye for now.
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 9:16:12 pm EDT from 65.134.17.147

Greg Bi: I do understand that Demona is a tragic being, and that you wish for her to remain a villain. I'll like Demona know matter what, but her actions in the past suggest that she has a shot at having a normal relationship with Angela (like in the TGS fanfiction, and yes, I KNOW that the fanfiction is made by fans and is therefore not canonical). I did not forget your quote Greg, but even you have to admit that its a bit early to start thinking about spin offs at this point. I don't cite the spin off series because they'll never be made unless the new comic is big hit, and not just amongst hardcore garg fans who actually remember the show.

I'de like to see Demona and Samson and all the other Manhattan Clan descendants in the future, but I suspect that Demona's ultimate redemption or damnation will be sped up a bit for the new comic series because its unlikely that most, if any, of Greg Weisman's spinoffs will be followed through with, except perhaps as flash backs, two part sagas, or miniseries within the main storyline of the comic. I hope it works out differently though, and that the comic brings in more new fans in order to make the demand for these spinoffs great enough to compel Disney to allow for the production of more new garg comics.

Greg Bi, I can see you are a very knowledgable person, and I'll take your advice so we can debate on more equal and satisfactory footing. However, you did not have to go so far as to say I know NOTHING of Demona's character, that was uncalled for and rude. I'll get back to you after I have finished reading all of Greg W's archives on the subject.

Oh yes, by the way, I disagree on with your opinion on DBZ, but I admire your taste in other anime series. I've seen most of the anime series you listed, and own most of Evangelion and all of the Inuyasha movies. I let a friend borrow the entire series of Evangelion once, and he got all pissed with me because he hated the ending (found it confusing, sad, and unsatisfactory with all the deaths). Plus I adore Full Metal Alchemist, who's your favorite Homunculus? Mine is Envy, because he's such a ruthless, smug bastard, lol. I like Wrath too, crazy little dude. Have you seen Hellsing, or perhaps Devil Lady by Go Nagai? I recommend either one.
Dragomir
"Don't hate me because I'm devious," Demona cues as she strikes an enticing pose for the audience, evoking jealous glares from the other contestants
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 8:49:18 pm EDT from 71.192.76.212

Hey there, April. ^_^

I've often heard Gargoyles referred to as "American Anime"... partly due to the high quality of its art (compared to the other drek that was on TV at the time, and since), and for its level of maturity.
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 8:42:37 pm EDT from 24.126.11.109

Matt & Alex (and anyone else who answered :p) :

1) Thank you so much for helping me out and welcoming me.

2) No prob about posting here, Mr. Weisman (I'm sure) is a busy man and most times, the fans are just a
Knowledgeable as the creator :)

Thanks again! :)

P.S. Since you guys are discussing anime, correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't i once here that Gargoyle's could (in fact) be considered a form of anime...?...If that makes any sense LOL.
April - [violet_twister8@yahoo.com]
Bye-bye for now.
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 8:40:03 pm EDT from 65.134.17.147

Anime eh. Here's a list of good anime.

Cowboy Bebop
Berserk
Princess Mononoke
Neon Genesis Evangelion
Rurouni Kenshin (The Legend of Kyoto)
Samurai X
Fullmetal Alchemist
Big O
Inu Yasha (parts of it)
Gundam SEED
Ghost in the Shell (the series, not the movie)
Trigun

The reason DBZ has survived for so long is it has no thought to it. Here's the plot of Dragonball Z. Fight, fight, fight. You get stronger. Fight, fight, fight. They get stronger. Fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, a five minutes covers 100 episodes. Fight, fight, fight, fight. You win.

And on Demona. No, you have not presented facts. I have cited Ask Greg, various interviews where he has discussed her, DVD commentary... I cite Greg's own words.

And in his own words, Demona is her own worst enemy. She is a tragic character. Never having a normal relationship with Angela is sad, it's tragic... it is Demona.

What you've been citing are your own opinions and wishful thinking. You ignore the Demona section from the 2198 document, even though it has repeatedly been posted.

Come back with quotes from Ask Greg, and I will debate with you.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Each year, the Rainforest is responsible for over three thousand deaths from accidents, attacks or illnesses. There are over seven hundred things in the Rainforest that cause cancer. Join the fight now and help stop the Rainforest before it's too late.
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 7:17:28 pm EDT from 65.33.202.237

Dragonmir. Greg be was preating what Greg W's plans were for Demona. Greg W is not going to have Demona redeemed by the tenth issue. She will not be redeemed by the 50th issue.(If we are lucky to get a 50th issue)

If a post Time Dancing Brooklyn says she isn't redeemed until 2198 will you accept the FACT she won 't be redeemed until 2198?

As for anime? There are several series that is light years beyond better than DBZ. I'll admit DBZ is part of the reason that got me interested in non obvious parings (Like Remus/Tonks).

Let me list some anime series that are a lot better.

Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon
Outlaw Star
Cowboy Bebop
Trigun
Hellsing
Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex.
Vision of Escaflowne
Fushigi Yugi
Magic Knight Rayearth
Slayers
Every Gundam series.
The Big O
Innuyasha
Revolutionary Girl Utena
Beserk....and several more. Watch several of the oens that I have listed and come back to me.
Spacebabie - [spacebabie@hotmail.com]
"People are like stars. There are bright ones, and then there are those who are dim."~ Hot Ice Hilda
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 7:16:04 pm EDT from 68.118.128.18

You know, Dragomir... none of us tend have an attitude until *you* give us one. Look in a mirror before you accuse Greg B. or anyone else here of overreacting.
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 7:15:53 pm EDT from 24.126.11.109

Greg Bi, you have no understanding of good manners, did you happen to miss Greg Weisman's last warning to us to stop acting like bickering children over the internet. I have stated my FACTS as well, my evidence, and my opinions. Dude, you are taking all of this way too seriously and I suggest you go calm down soemwhere. I understand Demona's character alright, I just think she has a chance at redemption. Excuse me for having ideas different from you, and perhaps you should learn not to be so insulting when posting a reply to someone you disagree with. Good luck and good night

P.S. Dragonball Z is one of the greatest anime series ever made, the stories were awesome, the characters unique, and the fight scenes unforgettable. Plus, its hard to call something crap when it has spanned into so many mediums thanks to its success on TV, in manga, and motion pictures. I know some anime fans who would go into deeper detail on this matter, but I'll spare you and me the time and effort (plus I'm sick of arguing with people on this site and getting reprimanded by Greg for it. I hate it when the poor guy has to TELL us to behave and get along here)

April: welcome to the fandom! (:
Dragomir
"Don't hate me because I'm devious," Demona cues as she strikes an enticing pose for the audience, evoking jealous glares from the other contestants
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 6:58:21 pm EDT from 71.192.76.212

April> First off, thank you so much for bringing your question here before going to Greg with it. You are an example to all about the importance of researching a question before going to Greg. I think those of us in the Room are always willing to answer any question we know the answer to, and if you want to go right to the source, the Archives are huge and have a handy search feature. Anyway, thanks again.

As for Griff and Una, well both of them, along with Leo, hatched in 1898. So, in 1940 they would've been 42 years old, young adult gargoyles. As Alex Garg pointed out with his quotes from Ask Greg, Una and Griff had chosen each other as mates by 1940, then Griff dissapeared with Goliath. Una and Leo, in thier grief, probably leaned on each other and paired up within a few years after the Battle of Britain. I don't know whether Griff and Una had ever actually had sex, but they certainly did not have any children. Una would not be fertile til 1948, at which time her and Leo probably produced an egg. Assuming they had three eggs (a reasonable assumption) thier children hatched in 1958, 1978, and 1998. I personally don't think Una and Griff had sex because gargoyles mate for life, and I doubt Una would've as easily and as quickly paired up with Leo if her and Griff had been 'married' and consumated thier relationship. Just my take.
As Alex Garg poined out, I asked Greg about Griff's feelings on all this and Una and Leo's pairing was a factor in Griff deciding to leave London, so it seems he definitly had feelings for Una, and she obviously had feelings for him.
Hopefully, Griff will find a mate somewhere out there.

See, heres another advantage of coming to us instead of going to Greg. We are likely to give you much more information.
Hope that answers your question.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 6:54:52 pm EDT from 150.201.114.132

DRAGOMIR> Dragonball Z is poorly written crap. Of course, that is my opinion.

But what you're saying about Demona is not an opinion. There are opinions and then there are facts. I have presented my evidence. You never present any of your own.

"
Plus, I think the arrival of the Quarrymen will drive Demona to at least attempt some form of truce with the Manhattan Clan in order to protect Angela and all gargoyles from a greater evil that threatens them both."

Dude... no. Do you honestly think Goliath would approve of what Demona's methods for dealing with the Quarrymen are likely to be? Hell, do you honestly think Demona wouldn't lose any more respect for Goliath for continuing to protect the city.

Demona's methods are likely to be, to kill all the Quarrymen. Slaughter them. And slaughter humanity, and I guarantee you, "protecting Angela" is going to be how she justifies it.

Dude... you have no understanding of Demona's character. None, whatsoever.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Each year, the Rainforest is responsible for over three thousand deaths from accidents, attacks or illnesses. There are over seven hundred things in the Rainforest that cause cancer. Join the fight now and help stop the Rainforest before it's too late.
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 6:34:09 pm EDT from 65.33.202.237

Alex Garg: I really feel for Griff, I can't imagine what it would be like finding one self in a whole new time period you know nothing about, where everyone you know have grown old and changed while you have remained the same. I love his character design and his dare devil attitude, "Thats the spirit chum!"

Matt & Greg B: Okay guys, I don't want to argue, but I think you are over reacting just a little bit. I remember everything you said before, and I respect your opinons, but I still have mine. Who knows what the comics will bring, but I still believe Demona and Angela will come to some form of understanding before the future spin-off (I don't expect her to invite Demona to the castle for tea & cookies with Maza and Goliath or anything, just that Demona will restrain herself in order to escape her loneliness, which is what she truly wants to put an end to).

I also don't believe that Demona's character would be ruined by becoming a good guy again, plenty of truly wicked TV villains have made the change to good without loosing their unique personalities. Take the delightfully bad Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, who, unlike his old rival Angelus, deliberately sought to reclaim his soul if it meant he could get close to his former adversary Buffy as a lover. While still essentially a good guy, Spike still kept all of his bad habits, a love for kicking ass, a distinct hatred for Angel, drinking, smoking, and of course, making the rudest possible comments that the most inappropriate of times.

For thos of you who enjoy anime, you may recall Vegeta and Piccolo from the Dragonball and Dragonball Z series. Both of these incredible warriors were once mortal enimies of the hero Goku and the rest of the universe, but were able to change their evil ways. Piccolo befriended and learned to care for his one time enemies's son Gohan, and Vegeta, while still a power hungry, arrogant SOB, managed to find love with bulma and settle down to make a family. Vegeta still sought to surpass Goku in power and Piccolo retained his cold, distant disposition. The point I'm making here is that a character is not necessarily ruined simply because their priorties and moralities change.

I personally think Demona achieving redemption is just as, if not more, believable than Xanatos or Dingo turning good. Dingo, while still the least insane member of the Pack, was still a merc who enjoyed a good challenge more than doing the right thing. And as for Xanatos, who may turn on the Clan in the comics eventually or at least do something to threaten their truce, has shown virtually zero redeeming qualities except for his love for his family and friendship with Owen (despite giving very little thanks to the Major Domo for sacrificing his hand to test the Caudron of Life). I don't think Demona would stop hating humans or become all sunny and trusting, but I do believe she can remain the self-righteous, ingenious bad girl we all know and love even if she halts all her evil schemes for the sake of getting to know her daughter, and in the process come to accept the reality of the things she has done, if only in the case of leaving the eggs to their fate and her part in the Massacre. Can't see her shaking hands with MacBeth just yet (by the way, I also admire his honor code, though trying to steal Excalibur with the aid of two paid Mercs was not one of his better moments, but at least he can own up to what he does wrong).

Plus, I think the arrival of the Quarrymen will drive Demona to at least attempt some form of truce with the Manhattan Clan in order to protect Angela and all gargoyles from a greater evil that threatens them both.
Dragomir
"Don't hate me because I'm devious," Demona cues as she strikes an enticing pose for the audience, evoking jealous glares from the other contestants
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 5:56:20 pm EDT from 71.192.76.212

April>> Welcome to the board!

Una was in love with Griff, and we assume he reciprocated, but as far as *mating* is concerned, that isn't certain (so far as I've found).

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=217

"Una was in love with Griff. And still is. But in the interrum, in my mind, she mated with Leo. She LOVES Leo. But she never got over being IN LOVE WITH Griff."

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=7965

"matt: Will Griff find a new mate since Una is with Leo now (and WAY too old for him)?

Greg: One would hope."
Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Fans]
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 3:47:51 pm EDT from 216.145.68.246

Hello! :)

I'm sort of new to this site. I've seen it before but never really posted anywhere.
Any ways, I hate to come in a totally interupt the current conversation right now but I didn't want to bother Mr. Weisman with a question he has probably been asked 500 times a day in the time this site has been up :) So I came here to see if you guys could help me out :)

I'm sure it's been asked before but I've searched for the answer unsuccessfully.

All I want to know is this: Are (or were they at some time) Una and Griff a couple? I've never been sure and am just extremely curious. Thanks for ya'lls time :)

April
April - [violet_twister8@yahoo.com]
:)
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 3:35:46 pm EDT from 63.235.233.205

HofEyes> Don't forget his defense of the Gargoyles on Nightwatch in "The Journey". We'll probably see him there again in the first issue or two of the comic.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 11:44:47 am EDT from 150.201.114.132

Concerning Macbeth: He does have some interesting diversions now, what with a) His encounter in "Sanctuary" proving that there might still be love out there for him, and b) His promise to Arthur at the end of "Pendragon."

The main reason I find Macbeth to be so interesting is because of his strict code of honor. I'm curious to see where he might go in the comic.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"The access code is... INA-GODDA-DA-VIDA." -Yet another alternate take from "City of Stone."
posted @ Sun, Apr 2, 2006 11:15:32 am EDT from 69.174.3.196

Dragomir>> Off by a touch over six centuries, there. How about "Gargoyles 2198."

By this point, Angela and Demona have had the chance to build a relationship for 10 years - Demona, prior to meeting Angela, had 1,000 years to harden herself.

Angela's presence and efforts alone just cannot be enough to "reform" Demona - it's going to take an effort on her part to *want* to change. As much as she may love Angela, there's a "coming to grips" that Demona needs to have.

Besides, Greg (our adoration of his work suffices enough to stroke his ego - you don't have to keep using the "Mr." prefix) has said on many occasions that even by 2198 Demona's an ambiguous-at-best character, siding with the resistance not so much out of a desire to protect the world but because it's the lesser of two evils. I imagine that part of her "coming to grips" in the world two centuries from now is to have the unfortunate realization that her bitterness prevented her from having the relationship with Angela she might have wanted.

Much of this is explained in the Gargoyles 2198 archives: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/archives.php?lid=71

And in general:
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/archives.php
Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Fans]
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 11:57:12 pm EST from 216.145.68.246

DRAGOMIR> Sigh... once again, from the Gargoyles 2198 document:

DEMONA - For over a thousand years, Demona has plotted against humanity, blaming them for crimes against the gargoyle race. Now that a greater threat, the Space-Spawn, has reared it's many ugly heads, Demona has reluctantly joined Samson's resistance cell. But no one, including Demona herself, is fully confident that she'll continue to fight on the side of the angels. This may be her last chance at redemption... or her final opportunity to annihilate the human race. Still, Samson felt it necessary to actively recruit her. It's hard to pass up the help of a warrior who's survived a millennium's worth of battles, a sorceress who knows how to combine ancient magic with modern technology. And then there's that bit about her turning into a human during the day. The only question is how she will use her talents. For now, she's siding with the resistance. But can that last?

*******

Yes, Greg doesn't abandon plot threads. But I don't recall Macbeth giving up his suicidal tendencies. We don't know what will happen the next time he and Demona see each other.

Also, Greg is a good enough writer not to repeat plot points with every character. Xanatos was softened a bit when he became a parent. It would be redundant.

Demona does love Angela, but Demona is her own worst enemy. That is a fundamental part of her character. It is tragic. Demona is supposed to be tragic on Shakespearan levels.

Demona is NOT going to be a good guy in Goliath or Angela's life time.

And I refuse to believe Demona wouldn give up her revenge just for Angela. Angela wagging a finger in Demona's face is not going to change her.

If anything, Angela will be Demona's new justification. She must destroy humanity to protect her daughter. Angela will thank her for it some day.

What you want would be a complete betrayal of the character.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Each year, the Rainforest is responsible for over three thousand deaths from accidents, attacks or illnesses. There are over seven hundred things in the Rainforest that cause cancer. Join the fight now and help stop the Rainforest before it's too late.
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 11:55:22 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Dragomir> Boy, are you preaching to the choir. No offense, but all of this has been covered in Ask Greg. And the alien is named Nokkar of the N'Kai, and the date is 2198. I'll let Greg B handle the Demona stuff since he knows it better than anyone.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 11:50:07 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

Harvester: I don't expect Demona to go all goody goody right off the bat, but I suspect she may take strides to repent or at least make peace with the Clan thanks to efforts from Angela. Mr. Weisman rarely introduces a new theme or concept to the series unless he intends to follow up on it. For example, many of the extra characters from the Gargoyles World Tour are supposed to become regulars in the spinoff series Weisman hopes to produce. Griff and King Arthur in Pendragon and Dingo in Bad Guys, and I'm sure that alien guy Lokar will appear in Gargoyles 2831 (I apologize if I got the date wrong).
A couple of good examples of followed up themes would be the introduction of the Third Race with Puck, or the first mentioning of the illuminati by Matt Bluestone. We learn of the Faye as well as the powerful Oberon and Titania from the first Puck episode, and the Illuminati's involvment on the show steadily progresses as time passes.

Furthermore, many characters on the show have undergone changes after a certain point. MacBeth gives up on trying to kill Demona and thus committ suicide in the process after recieving councel from Elisa and Goliath back in Paris. He even decides to give up on trying to regain his former royal power and make peace with the Manhattan Clan after he fails to defeat Arthur and take Excalibur for himself. Even Xanatos has tried to bury the hatchet with the Manhattan Clan, welcoming them back into Castle Wyvern in gratitude for saving his son from Oberon and Titania.

I feel that it would be unlike Mr. Greg Weisman to leave this budding mother/daughter relationship between Demona and Angela in its current uncertain state, or to simply abandon it altogether. Of course, there's no guarantee Demona will ultimately turn good or not, and I'm sure that her growing bond with Angela will be rocky at best, but considering how many of the other former villains of the show have changed, as well as Demona's genuine love for her daughter, I don't think we can count Demona's eventual redemption out just yet...Though I agree she will remain the bad girl we all know and love in the beginning of the new comic series, but may very well change over time as the series progresses. As new villains arrive to take the place of the old, I suspect new alliances will be made and old vendettas put aside in the face of the threat posed by the Quarrymen, the Ultra Pack, and perhaps most dangerous of all, the still mysterious Illuminati...

P.S. interesting info on satanism Harvester...though I too doubt I'll ever delve into the practice, lol. Hope I made a better argument then I usually do up above, have a good night. (:
Dragomir
"Don't hate me because I'm devious," Demona cues as she strikes an enticing pose for the audience, evoking jealous glares from the other contestants
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 11:24:11 pm EST from 71.192.76.212

Hey, everyone. There's been a slight change of plans. The Gathering 2007 has decided to use the British space program instead. Everyone attending is asked to bring a bit of ladder.

Gathering 2007: The Moon - "One small step for Weisman, one giant leap for fandom."
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"Ooh, it's all sticky! It's made of jam!" - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 10:36:26 pm EST from 67.38.252.229

Dragomir: Try not to be too upset when Demona makes her first appearance in the comic. Ultimately, a Demona who's at war with herself and humanity makes for more interesting reading than a Demona who's happy. Although I do enjoy the moments in the show where we see her happy, some of these still have a dark edge to them. As Greg said in the CoS commentary (at least I think it was Greg), one of the reasons she was happy when she was allied with Macbeth was because she got to kill humans.

My own understanding of Satanism is that they mainly promote self-reliance and self-betterment. Satan is actually a Hebrew word that means "adversary." The adversary in this case would be the self. So their rituals mainly involve strengthening the importance of the self. They look upon the so-called "deadly sins" as just instincts, and feel that denying them will actually do more harm than good to one's self. I don't think I would ever join them, but it was interesting learning about them. Shattered a lot of misconceptions.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"The access code is... INA-GODDA-DA-VIDA." -Yet another alternate take from "City of Stone."
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 9:27:56 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

Dragomir: I looked into what the hell (no pun intended) Satanism was about a while ago. I don't remember everything, but what I gathered was that they basically existed to defy the accepted social norms of their society. In our society, Satan is considered the enemy of all that we consider to be good, so he's the perfect symbol for a group that defies the social order. Hence, they call themselves Satanists. In other cultures where people do not believe in Satan, they'd call themselves something else which would have the same connotation. They do not believe that their is literally a being called Satan; they simply use him as a symbol.

Some of that may be wrong, or there may be some Satanists who believe different, but that's my understanding.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
"Die, die, we all pass away/ But don't wear a frown, 'cause it's really okay./ You might try to hide, and you might try to pray/ But we all end up the remains of the day." -"Remains of the Day," from The Corpse Bride
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 8:37:06 pm EST from 68.58.253.131

DRAGOMIR> <<I love her as a villain, but would love to see her turn over a new leaf thanks to an intervention with Angela in the comics.>>

It's not going to happen. Dude, give it up ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Each year, the Rainforest is responsible for over three thousand deaths from accidents, attacks or illnesses. There are over seven hundred things in the Rainforest that cause cancer. Join the fight now and help stop the Rainforest before it's too late.
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 8:21:24 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Harvester: Satanists don't believe in the devil? Then why do they call themselves satanists?

Nikki: Your welcome Nikki, Demona is my all time favorite gargoyle (as anyone is this room can tell you, lol). I too feel sorry for her, but find her an interesting and unpredictable character. I love her as a villain, but would love to see her turn over a new leaf thanks to an intervention with Angela in the comics. How do you feel about her? Do you think she can ever change, or is she destined to be bad forever? My fave episode is the Reckoning, my heart skipped a beat when Demona turned on Thailog to save her daughter, and actually FREED Goliath to help out! My second favorite is Thailog, he's so bbbbaadddd...But so good at being so, lol
Dragomir
"Don't hate me because I'm devious," Demona cues as she strikes an enticing pose for the audience, evoking jealous glares from the other contestants
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 8:16:08 pm EST from 71.192.76.212

I can't wait for Tuesday being a huge fan of the book series - Wahooo
Matt Fews
The future of Narnia rests on your courage - Aslan
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 8:14:23 pm EST from 67.68.227.111

Ha ha, Greg. Very Funny.













Not.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
that is all I will say.
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 6:59:54 pm EST from 198.53.28.99

Re the Gathering 2007: Pity that the Hunter's Moon is in October, which is a bit late in the year for a Gathering. If the Gathering's going to be held on the moon, it should ideally be during the Hunter's Moon. Anything else would be a poor substitute.
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 6:59:33 pm EST from 4.244.208.63

D'oh! That should have read "where" I found it.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 4:33:52 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

Thanks Dragomir. My favourite character is Goliath. I enjoy the moments when he smiles or finds something amusing the most as it nicely breaks up his serious outlook on everything. My second is Demona, as her irationality is portrayed really well and I can't help for feeling sorry for her. I find that both these characters have alot of on screen presence; therefore I find them the most interesting and entertaining to watch.
Nikki
It's my birthday today
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 4:31:10 pm EST from 62.252.32.16

Matt: Well, you can believe what I said. The Church of Satan, as founded by Anton Levey, DOESN'T believe in a higher being, good or evil.

Consequently, I found an Easter Egg on the DVD. It turns out Demona is a huge fan of Urkel. He cracks her up! Now if only I could remember what I found it...
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Deepest regrets I humbly offer you as I cut into your life. With clean precision all is simplified. Pass the hat and pass the knife!" -Ian Anderson
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 4:26:49 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

On this day, I believe nothing I read in here.

Though I'm REALLY hoping the Gathering is gonna be on the Moon.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 4:19:48 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

Okay, okay. A real Gathering announcement. I'm the Assistant to Promotions, if I tell the fandom something is happening with the Gathering, it's true.

Jon Stewart and the cast of the Daily Show are coming to the Gathering. Turns out Jon is a hardcore fan, and wants to film an episode of the series at the con.

Greg Weisman will be his guest, and apparantly, California governor, Arnold Schwartzenegger will be stopping by too.

So, if you want to be on the Daily Show, come to the Gathering.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Each year, the Rainforest is responsible for over three thousand deaths from accidents, attacks or illnesses. There are over seven hundred things in the Rainforest that cause cancer. Join the fight now and help stop the Rainforest before it's too late.
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 3:07:35 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

What is best about next year's Gathering is how appropriate the setting, given that we FINALLY got Johnathan Frakes.

And we can finally do the "Gargoyles in SPAAAAAACE" anthology!
Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 2:44:23 pm EST from 71.112.172.65

"Come join us at the Sea of Tranquility for four days of lunacy." LOL.

Good one, Patrick.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
that is all I will say.
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 1:05:52 pm EST from 198.53.28.99

Sorry for the double post, but just needed to clarify something. Yesterday, when I said that gargoyles don't experience sleep as most members of the animal kingdom know it, I wasn't referring to them turning to stone. What I meant was that they don't appear to go through the four-stage sleep cycle, and REM or NON-REM phases. Or at least they don't appear to. Hence my saying that we'd need to know just what "stone's" chemical properties are.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 11:04:04 am EST from 69.174.3.196

There's no way you'd ever get Harvester of Eyes on a Russian rocket, foo!

I actually did something in the TGS CR last year. Looking back, I'm kind of embarrassed by it, since it was before I saw some documentaries on Satanism and learned that they don't believe in hell or the devil (or any kind of afterlife, for that matter). But life is a process of growth. At least to some.

And thanks for reminding us, Patrick. Everyone remember the rhyme: Spring backward, fall ahead.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does?" -Gaff (Edward James Olmos).
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 10:23:41 am EST from 69.174.3.196

The moon! That's so unfair. How come the Gathering never comes close to *my* town, like Falls Church or something.

Oh well. Maybe next year.

:P
Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Fans]
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 9:48:42 am EST from 216.145.68.246

I'm pleased to announce that a location for The Gathering 2007 has been selected. It will be held on the moon. Con fees are still being worked out, and will include round-trip travel to be arranged through the Russian space program. Come join us at the Sea of Tranquility for four days of lunacy. The Gathering 2007: "I was on the moon, with Steve!"

P.S. - Don't forget to flip your calendars today, and change your clocks tonight.

83 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Valencia, California!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"Yes, they are fools, gentlemen, but the question remains. What KIND of fools are they." - Gary Larson
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 8:46:46 am EST from 67.38.252.229

Nice theory Nikki, sounds right to me! Whose your favorite character?

Unlikely Couple List:
1) Demona and Puck
2) Angela and Robin Canmore
3) Jackle and Fox
4) Raven and Grandmother
5) Thailog and Elisa
Dragomir
"Don't hate me because I'm devious," Demona cues as she strikes an enticing pose for the audience, evoking jealous glares from the other contestants
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 7:20:07 am EST from 71.192.76.212

Is anyone else watching the new series "Big Love" on HBO (or on The Movie Network if you're in Canada) ? It focuses on a polygamist (played by Bill Paxton), his relationship with the three wives, their children and their extended families. It's very well acted, the scripts are smart so far, there's a nice amount of humor to grease the wheels and details that'll make even the most open-minded folks raise an eyebrow now and again. I only bring it up 'cause I was thinking a little bit about Gargoyles after viewing the third episode tonight and trying to remember other TV shows and films I've seen that work outside of the "couple with kid(s)/single parent with kid(s)" dynamics to portray family groups. Really makes you wonder what other forms of "family" might be possible and effectively work in situations where mature adults get together and attempt to make an honest go of it (not that all the wives on Big Love are mature, but that'll bring some of the necessary conflict, of course).

Re: King Kong DVD
Aside from the lack of extras considering it's a Peter Jackson release and has all this history (though I imagine the Production Diaries DVD giftset would satisfy most of those desires), did anyone else not wanna get the Kong DVD for the simple and superficial reason of the cover kind of sucking? The airplane sequence may've been a couple minutes longer than necessary to begin with, but that also wasn't nearly my favorite setting in the film, so for a special edition DVD I hope they either go with a photo of Kong in a more green setting on Skull Island, or they do something artsy and iconic...something gold- or silver-embossed maybe.
Kris - [Ontario, Canada]
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 4:24:40 am EST from 24.137.192.172

I usually get pranked by some idiot every year. The one April Fool's prank I remember most was from awhile back, pertaining to a LoK release. It was put together by a professional, who made the screenshots and the packaging look genuine. The guy who orchestrated it wasted no time on it. I and a few others were so peeved over this, since this was back when we were still waiting for news on the latest release at that time.
The Winged Vampire - [The_Winged_Vampire@hotmail.com]
Cricket!? Nobody understands Cricket! You have to know what a crumpet is to understand Cricket!
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 2:08:02 am EST from 199.224.75.42

JUST WANTED TO WISH EVERYONE A APRIL FOOLS DAY. MAKE SURE NOT TO GET PRANKED (IM SURE I WILL)
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"For me to poop on!" - Triumph the insult comic dog
posted @ Sat, Apr 1, 2006 1:03:13 am EST from 69.234.6.13

Hence why I'm waiting. The rumors are that both Kong and Narnia are getting extended editions in November, give or take. So I rented.
The Barracuda
posted @ Fri, Mar 31, 2006 8:12:37 pm EST from 204.209.150.46

SIREN> Most likely. I believe, as with the Lord of the Rings trilogy, Kong will be getting a four disc Extended Edition DVD.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Each year, the Rainforest is responsible for over three thousand deaths from accidents, attacks or illnesses. There are over seven hundred things in the Rainforest that cause cancer. Join the fight now and help stop the Rainforest before it's too late.
posted @ Fri, Mar 31, 2006 6:30:45 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

I am disappointed with the 2 disc King Kong. I expected commentaries, trailers, etc I watched some of the post production diaries, and 1933 New York special. I already had seen the Skull Island special on SciFi channel a day before. The 1933 history lessons was actually kinda cool. Talking about the little bits and pieces of history you see in the movie but aren't really important to the story on a whole. I expected a little more info on Kong and his species on the Skull Island. In the movie we see skeletons of his family. And in a children's picture book my daughter got, there is are beautiful picture of Kong and Ann coming face to face with a life size statue of Kong and in the story, Kong sees it and vaguely remembers his family. He had been alone for a long time. The statue also established that the gorillas were there when the advance civilization was there and they revered them. But little was mentioned of the gorilla/human relationship. Though on a whole, the Skull Island documentary was good.

I am expecting to see another release of the DVD in 6-8 months with commentaries and other bonus features.
Siren - [sirengarg@yahoo.com]
Click my name for my newest Gargoyles (Brooklyn/Maggie/Talon) music video!
posted @ Fri, Mar 31, 2006 6:10:40 pm EST from 65.33.112.205

Wow. I used the Super Saver Shipping option when I ordered "King Kong" and it arrived yesterday (I wasn't expecting it until next week). Surprisingly cheap for a two-disc DVD, as well, so I also added Peter Gabriel's "Security" to the order (I've been unintentionally purchasing his solo work in numerical order). And now for something completely different...

Starlioness: I think that Iago and Desdemona were part of Coldstone's rookery. So they should both be 28 as well. And as Coldstone is technically not really a gargoyle anymore, but is living stone and metal, I don't think he can age.

Matt: <I love this stuff, but it is confusing, esspecially when you have to deal with so-called biological ages, chronological ages, time spent on Avalon, time spent in stone sleep, time travel, etc.> As the wise man said, time travel's funny that way.

Bishansky: Where can I sign up? And can we finally deal with that murderous polar ice cap, as well? Oh, and those whales... don't get me started on them. One of them ate my leg. And by leg, I mean hat. But it was a nice hat.

Phil: Goliath might have been dreaming in "Vows". If I remember correctly, it flashed back to 975 right after he turned to stone at the Clock Tower in Act I. So I'm not sure if that was implied or not. I personally think it was.

If I remember correctly, brain cells don't divide anyway. One of the theories on dreams is that it's the brain trying to make sense of random neurons in the memory centers firing. But as you might have pointed out, gargoyle dreams don't appear to be that complex. Of course, gargoyles don't experience sleep as other members of the animal kingdom know it. Or it doesn't appear that they would. First, we'd have to know what the chemical properties of "stone" are.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does?" -Gaff (Edward James Olmos).
posted @ Fri, Mar 31, 2006 4:58:18 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

Matt> I'll try to answer your question. I remember hearing somewhere - I think it was a nature programme, that human babies develop quick mentally as they are physically inferior to animals. I suppose humans defence and power comes from their brains as opposed to bigger, more powerful creatures. Perhaps gargoyle children develop slower because they are phsically equipt with strength, agility and power and are not so dependent as humans on brain power.
Nikki
It's my birthday tomorrow
posted @ Fri, Mar 31, 2006 3:28:01 pm EST from 62.252.32.16

This is just a theory. Anyone with better knowledge of neurobiology, please correct me.

When a gargoyle sleeps, his brain becomes an organic stone-like substance. There is no neural growth because neurons will not divide and make new connections. However the existing neurons can still somehow be activated and accessed.

Therefore, to a gargoyle, dreaming is not a process of new, original, creative subconscious thought. It is merely replaying old, existing thoughts or memories.

The only time I remember a gargoyle dreaming in stone sleep is Hudson in "Long Way to Morning" and his dreams were actually memories. Are there any other instances of dreams that I'm forgetting?
Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
posted @ Fri, Mar 31, 2006 9:19:19 am EST from 69.129.121.95

I honestly can't answer your inquiry Matt, but perhaps gargoyles would ask why human children growup so fast intellectually, if they weren't cartoon characters of course, lol. What seems strange to us is natural to them, and vice versa. I don't know enough about what physical processes occur within the brain to help it mature from childlike thinking to a mature state to give a proper answer to you Matt, but whatever it is probably takes place at a much slower rate in gargoyle then in humans. Hope I was able to help you a little bit Matt, though I'm sure there is someone here capable of giving you a much more satisfactory answer. (:
Dragomir
"Don't hate me because I'm devious," Demona cues as she strikes an enticing pose for the audience, evoking jealous glares from the other contestants
posted @ Fri, Mar 31, 2006 6:19:12 am EST from 71.192.76.212

How much intellectual maturity do human children do when they are asleep?

As others have mentioned, there is brain activity when a gargoyle sleeps, just as in a sleeping human, so why does a gargoyle take twice as long to mature intellectully. Physical growth would be slowed, sure, but not behavior development.

So why does it take a gargoyle twice as long to get to a 4 year old level, why does it take a gargoyle twice as long to reach adulthood, why is a gargoyle a 'teenager' for effectively 14 years?
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Fri, Mar 31, 2006 2:31:00 am EST from 150.201.114.132

Sorry for the @X post.

(I see what you mean, Matt. It took me 1hr+ to compile this.)

Later, PRDT is on.
The Winged Vampire - [The_Winged_Vampire@hotmail.com]
Cricket!? Nobody understands Cricket! You have to know what a crumpet is to understand Cricket!
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 11:32:26 pm EST from 205.238.195.119

Gargoyles DO mature at the same rate as humans, but it takes them twice as long because they spend half their time in a state of suspended animation. So it takes them twice as long to do the same amount of living.

85 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Valencia, California!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 11:30:39 pm EST from 66.72.201.65

PREVIOUSLY, IN THE GARGOYLES COMMENT ROOM....

2003, Three Years Ago This week....
Gabriel "gaygoyle" is first this week.
This is a very, and I mean very, slow week. It didn't help any that the site was down. Who would you like to see or see more of in Gargoyles? That is the hot topic this week. However, the numerous random topics cover more real-estate.
Quote:"Does anyone know what the prize was for the lightbulb contest?" -The Question

2004, Two Years Ago This Week....
JJ Gregarius is first this week.
This week is pretty busy. We continue from last week on the most preferred spinoffs and the Gargoyles airings on ABC Family. We soon get into the downloading of episodes onto computers and burning them onto DVD. Just what caused the show to "jump the shark"?
Quote:"You don't take the comments at Jumptheshark with a grain of salt, you take them with a pound of salt." -DPH

2005, One Year Ago This Week....
Alex Garg is first this week.
We have a fair amount of activity this week. We begin going off-topic, discussing Stargate Atlantis until midweek, getting into what we would like to have seen if the series lasted long enough. Pope John Paul II passes away just before the week clears.
Quote:"I'm not sure what is more striking: that Leo brought up the Pope's death, or that no-one afterwards has commented on it. :-/" -JJ Gregarius
The Winged Vampire - [The_Winged_Vampire@hotmail.com]
Cricket!? Nobody understands Cricket! You have to know what a crumpet is to understand Cricket!
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 11:30:10 pm EST from 205.238.195.119

Obed> Well, we DID see that brief flashback of Angela, Gabriel and Boudicca as kids in Avalon Pt.3, but I asked Greg when that happened/how old they were then and he didn't know, or hadn't figured it out yet. In that flashback, they seem to me to look and act like 6 or 7 year old human children, so maybe they are 12-14 years old, but it seems to make more sense that they are actually 6 or 7. I dunno.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 10:57:15 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

well, you know, gargoyle children have never been shown on the series...so maybe they do develop at the same rate as human children in early years, then it gradually slows down as they get older...
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 10:45:18 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

matt: you make a good point, especially since we know that there is still brain activity while a gargoyle is in stone sleep (cuz they dream). I always assumed the Gargoyles had a lifespan twice as long as humans because they were in suspended animation half of their life. But maybe development is paused while they are in stone sleep.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 10:42:52 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

Clarification: I can understand that physical growth may be slowed because of the suspended animation of stone sleep, but gargoyles are intellectually awake about as much as human children are, so a gargoyle in his 30s shouldn't really be a teenager equivalent, a gargoyle in his teens is a teenage equivalent, right? Do gargoyles intellectually advance half as slow as us?
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 10:41:37 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

Actually JJGregarius brings up something I've wondered about before. Sure, gargoyles are in suspended animation half the day, but how much do humans sleep and we still age normally. I mean, I can understand a gargoyle having a longer lifespan, lots of animals do, but why is an 8 year old gargoyle only as intellectually advanced as a 4 year old human?
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 10:34:31 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

JJ>> Because the children, like the adults, spend half of any given year in stone sleep. As far as aging is concerned, stone sleep serves as a kind of suspended animation.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=266
Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Fans]
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 8:36:10 pm EST from 216.145.68.246

Why is it that, since adults age at roughly twice the age as humans, children do to?
Is a four-year old gargoyle necessarily the equivalent of a two-year old human?
JJ Gregarius
Like the man said, "There are no problems; only solutions!"
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 8:16:59 pm EST from 206.57.92.155

The generation of eggs containing Demona, Goliath, Othello, Desdemona, Iago, Hyppolyta and their rookery siblings hatched in 938 AD. By 1040, Demona was 102 years old. So, thats the human equivalent of 51 years old. *Shrugs* Thats how I see it anyway.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 8:01:01 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

Greg B. : I think you're off there. Demona would've been at the human equivilant of 51, not 55, in 1040.
Spen
"There are three kinds of people; those who can't count, and those who can." - Wilek Nereus
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 7:52:15 pm EST from 216.248.119.208

ASATIRA - Actually, Guinevere comes into the legend relatively early, before the 12th century from the evidence.
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 6:58:52 pm EST from 4.245.19.223

If the massacre hadn't happened and the eggs hadn't been taken to Avalon, they would've hatched near the Spring Equinox in 998, three and a half years later.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 5:43:33 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

thanks Matt, I think Greg should have an online class on how to figure this stuff out.. until then we have people like you..

one thing I forgot. If the massacre never happened when would the eggs have hatched?
Starlioness
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 5:30:25 pm EST from 70.58.67.109

Ugh, on the Delilah thing I meant to say if she found a mate by late 2007.

My bad.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 5:15:47 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

Alex Garg> "Gargoyle ages and milestones become amazingly simple if you drop all this "biological" stuff."
Agreed. Thats why I only list ages as actual years old or equivalent to humans years old. It's really confusing cuz you can take Hudson and say hes 1128 years old, 128 years old or 64 years old, depending on how you look at it. I generally look at the middle one.

Starlioness> Your ages are essentially correct, but keep in mind that their actual ages is double your numbers. For instance you have Kai down as 54, but he is actually 108 years old. He was hatched in 1898.
The clones are just about the same age Goliath is, I believe. Maybe a little bit younger. But this means Delilah will only be able to have 2 eggs, and thats if she has found a mate by late 1997.
In 1940, Griff was 42 years old, a young gargoyle hatched the same year as Una, Leo and Kai. He was carried by Goliath forward 45 years, so in 1995 he is still 42 years old, somewhere in between Goliath and Broadway's generations. It's likely he'll sync up with Broadway and Angela's generations and if he finds a mate produce three eggs.
Keep in mind that Boudicca, Gabriel and Ophelia are nearly the same age as Broadway and Lexington and Sora for now, but those gargs in the real world are going to age 24 times faster than those on Avalon. In fact, by 2198, Gabriel, Ophelia and the rest will only have aged 8 or 9 years!!!

I love this stuff, but it is confusing, esspecially when you have to deal with so-called biological ages, chronological ages, time spent on Avalon, time spent in stone sleep, time travel, etc. Oui.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 5:14:16 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

Starlioness>> Gargoyles may be ready to *mate* at age 40 ("20 biologically"), but their even-decennial birthdays (20, 40, 60, etc.) are not breeding years - they're hatching years. 50, 70 and 90 are breeding ages for gargoyles.

Gargoyle ages and milestones become amazingly simple if you drop all this "biological" stuff.
Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Fans]
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 4:39:29 pm EST from 216.145.68.246

DRAGOMIR> No, those are just the forms Odin and Grandmother choose to take. The whole point is that they are shapeshifters. They can be anything they want.

And Demona is biologically 35 because that's how old Macbeth was at the time. In gargoyle terms, Demona was 55 when she and Macbeth traded ages, so now Macbeth is eternally 55.

But, even before that, Goliath and Demona were hatched at the same time. Entire rookery generations are hatched at the same time.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Each year, the Rainforest is responsible for over three thousand deaths from accidents, attacks or illnesses. There are over seven hundred things in the Rainforest that cause cancer. Join the fight now and help stop the Rainforest before it's too late.
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 3:37:57 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Gargoyle ages...yikes, so hard to get (I personally think Goliath looks much older than Demona, but whatever). Hudson is one old dude, and if he's only 64 in gargoyle years, that means he still has many more years ahead of him, yay! I don't even want to think about how hard it would be to determine the ages and life cycles of the Third Race, ugghhh...as far as I know they don't die unless someone kills them with iron, or least I've never heard of a Faye dying of old age. Odin and Grandmother, who both appear as elderly people, are probably proof enough that the Faye do eventually grow old and die though...
Dragomir
"Don't hate me because I'm devious," Demona cues as she strikes an enticing pose for the audience, evoking jealous glares from the other contestants
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 3:28:27 pm EST from 71.192.76.212

oops, your're right Greg, that would explain it ;)
Starlioness
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 3:17:23 pm EST from 70.58.67.109

whoops, I forgot Sora at 24..

and Goliath is now the same age as Demona right?
Starlioness
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 3:14:11 pm EST from 70.58.67.109

Starlioness> Macbeth was 35 when the Sisters did their spell on him and Demona.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Each year, the Rainforest is responsible for over three thousand deaths from accidents, attacks or illnesses. There are over seven hundred things in the Rainforest that cause cancer. Join the fight now and help stop the Rainforest before it's too late.
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 3:13:48 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

so, let me see if got my numbers right here..

Hudson 64
Leo,Una,Kai, 54
Brook, Katana, Zafiro, Obsidiana, 44
Goliath,Jade, Turquesa,Yama 34
Clones, early 30's(?)
Griff,27(?)
Broadway,Lex,Angela,Gabe,Oph,Boud, 24
Nash and Bronx, 14
Tachi,4
Demona, forever 35

now, Coldstone doesn't age does he? so he'll stay at 28? I couldn't find the ages for Iago and Desdemona..

couple questions about aging and breeding..
if Demona was born the same year as Goliath, why is she older than him? did the Weird Sister shave a few years off her?

and females are ready to breed at 20 biologically right? was Angela not ready at the time or she just didn't choose a mate at the time.. wouldn't it be the same for Gabe and Ophelia?

feel free to check my numbers.. they may be off..
Starlioness
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 3:04:46 pm EST from 70.58.67.109

Todd: I am familiar with the Galahad = Lancelot naming aspect, but I admit I came upon it pretty recently in Bradley's "Mists of Avalon." Man, I wish I had my Arthurian encyclopedia right now. Anywho, it does make sense. I keep thinking back to the last book of White's trilogy, where Lancelot is with the Grail knights, but can't see it specifically because of his affair.

Any idea the time periods these were written? I'm pretty sure there were periods when certain parts of the Arthurian legends and the Grail saga specifically came in. For example, I'm pretty sure many consider the addition of Guinivere to be a later one.
Asatira
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 1:32:44 pm EST from 24.214.68.215

*jumps up and down, all giddy*

I gots the pretty postcard!

Maybe now I might have an easier time in trying to convince the parentals in letting me go... :D
BrooksBabe - [<<- Clicky, clicky!]
"Why does he have to kill them to prove his point? Can't he just show them a pie chart or something?" --Tom Servo
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 1:16:21 pm EST from 130.63.241.192

Sorry for the double post, but I thought I'd throw out a few more ages as of right now.
All the gargoyles celebrated their hatchdays about a week or two ago on the Spring Equinox.
Tachi is now 8 (equivalent to a 4-year old)
Nashville and Bronx are now 28 (14)
Broadway, Angela and Lexington are now 48 (24)
Goliath is now 68 (34)
Brooklyn and Katana are now 88 (44)
if Hudson is still alive, he is 128 (64)

Thats all the Manhattan Clan members that we know about and have been born yet, though it's likely other gargoyles will have joined the Clan by now. Alex Xanatos is coming up on his tenth birthday, so I'm sure Tachi and Nashville are fun playmates for him. Elisa is aging a lot faster than Goliath and is only a year or two shy of 40.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 12:56:51 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

Kythera> I'm not neccesarily disagreeing with you on any of that, but I do like the SLG comic's art a lot more than the Marvel comic's. I'm assuming you prefer the Marvel comic's art then? I guess we just have to disagree, which is fine, people do it all the time, and I wouldn't want to get all upset about it. I don't have much else to say on the subject, but thanks for wisely suggesting me move this topic out of the Room.

Gargoyle cycles> Yeah, Alex Garg is correct. Angela and Broadway will conceive their first child sometime near the Fall Equinox of 2007. Angela will be pregnant for six months and lay the egg near the Spring Equinox of 2008. Ten years later, on the Spring Equinox of 2018, the egg will hatch and we'll have Artus. Nine and a half years later, on the Fall Equinox of 2027 Broadway and Angela will concieve their next child and so on.

So basically, Angela is going to be getting pregnant about a year and half from now!

As for how many eggs a garg can lay. Greg has made it pretty clear that they will generally only lay three. On Avalon, they could potentially lay a lot more eggs, but in the real world I can't see how more than three eggs can be produced. Twins from the same egg is slightly more likely, but even that is exceedingly rare.

Gargoyle Beasts lay four eggs since they can start bredding one generation earlier than Gargoyles of the same age can. This is why the Beast pair on Avalon is already breeding when Goliath arrives there in 1995/96. I'm pretty sure that pair had already produced at least an egg at that point. The math there drives me nuts, they may have already had several pups.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 12:44:09 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

Addendum (again. Sorry!):

Better idea... I've got a public LJ post open for discussing the art of the books. If you don't have an LJ, anonymous posting is enabled (just remember to say who you are in your post).

http://kythera.livejournal.com/418833.html
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 10:55:05 am EST from 24.126.11.109

BB>> Your math is wrong.

It's not 20 years gestation - only six months - it's a 20 year *cycle.*

e.g.,
998 - Hatching
1008 - Breeding
+6 months - Laying
1018 - Hatching

And so on.

On the question of whether a gargoyle can have a child at age 20: No. Gargoyles breed at ages 50, 70 and 90, although Greg has left open if whether or not some gargoyles manage to have a fourth egg.
Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Fans]
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 10:45:58 am EST from 216.145.68.246

Matt-- The issues that you're brigning up are mostly stylistic (i.e. if you like it or not is a matter of taste. Connor didn't try to mimic the style of the show, and took a lot of creative liscence with the look of it, and I agree that some of the coloring is off, like on Bluestone and Chavez). On a *technical* level, I think Connor knows how to draw better than Hedgecock does--she clearly knows how people should be proportioned (even when in motion), how the body moves, has a better sense of dynamic composition and the framing of panels, and a greater technical knowledge when drawing crowded scenes, backgrounds and architecture. I think she draws like a seasoned professional, while Hedgecock draws like an amateur.

I'm all up for continuing this debate rationally, and definitely in favor of taking it outside the CR. Feel free to drop me an email or say hi on AIM (KytheraOfAnevern), ICQ (39743303) or Yahoo (anevern - but clearly state who you are so I don't lose or ignore you amid the six or seven blind invites I get a night). That's an open invitation to anyone who wants to discuss the art of either or both books.
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 10:45:41 am EST from 24.126.11.109

That's supposed to be Cna a gargoyle have a 'child,'

and sorry for the double post and cap on the previous post.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
that is all I will say.
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 9:43:22 am EST from 198.53.28.99

Matt> Would it be 2118 or 2128??? 20 years gestation 10 yrs egg + 2198 = 2128... and can a gargoyle have a chile at 20 years old?

ANYONE OUT THERE CARE TO VENTURE A GUESS?
Battle Beast - [Canada]
that is all I will say.
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 9:42:31 am EST from 198.53.28.99

Interesting stuff Todd. I wonder how much of it will end up as Gargoyles canon.

Perhaps Lancelot (Broadways and Angela's third son) will name his son Galahad. I doubt it though. By the time Lance has kids it'll be 2118 and I think the Manahattan Clan will be big enough by that point that their rookeries will be more diverse and the Gargoyle Way will emerge again, as Greg W has said.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 8:12:09 am EST from 150.201.114.132

ASATIRA - Good summary, and more or less correct. The Percival version of the story is the original version; he comes by the castle of the current Fisher King (his uncle), is supposed to ask a certain question, but doesn't do so (because the knight who tutored him advised him against going about asking foolish questions). Consequently, the Fisher King's wound remains unhealed, and Percival gets told off about that afterwards; Chretien ended the poem before Percival could get back to the castle and ask the question.

The Galahad version came along later, and appears to have been designed to be a part of Lancelot's story. The central point in this version is that Lancelot is unable to achieve the Grail because of his affair with Queen Guinevere; at the same time, his son Galahad, who is chaste and not engaged in adultery, can achieve it. I think that Galahad's function is partly that of a "What if Lancelot hadn't fallen in love with Guinevere?" scenario; not only is he Lancelot's son, but also, it's mentioned that Galahad was Lancelot's original name (with "Lancelot" being a later name or nickname), which strengthens the suspicion that Galahad could be seen as an "alternate Lancelot". The other two knights are Percival (included because of his prominence in the original story) and Bors (Lancelot's cousin, whose role is to return to Arthur's court afterwards and tell everyone about what happened). What doesn't get brought up as often is that in Malory, nine other knights show up to achieve the Grail alongside these three, three from Gaul, three from Ireland, and three from Denmark - they generally get forgotten by modern writers, however. (In fact, I'd be surprised if they got into the "Pendragon" spin-off, which would eventually have had to incorporate a few Percival-and-the-Grail flashbacks if it had been made and lasted long enough, given that Percival's one of the major antagonists.)

In Malory, the Grail is taken up to Heaven after Galahad's death and never seen again. Obviously, this is not going to be the case in "Gargoyles", where Percival and Blanchefleur have been looking after it for the past 1500 years or so, and where Arthur is supposed to go searching for it once he finds Merlin (with the probability of Goliath and Elisa getting briefly involved in that quest, in light of a certain line of Goliath's in "Sentinel").
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 7:45:40 am EST from 4.244.213.142

Marvel comic> I'm a bit terrified of even talking about Gargoyles comics, but I didn't bring it up. I just read the first Issue the other day mostly to check out the art. I don't want to start a debate again, but it's just odd to me that people are complaining about not being able to recognize Matt B. or Travis M. in the new comic, but in the Marvel comic Matt B. was blond! And Chavez looks African-American. I dunno. It is just surprising that some people, even if they hate the new comic's art, don't feel it is at least an improvement over the Marvel comic.
Art aside, I honestly was rather bored with the Marvel stories. They made Xanatos so one-dimensional, he was automatically evil and the typical cartoon villain. Boring. Demona wasn't much fun either.
The only thing I liked BETTER in the comic than the series was probably Chavez herself. She comes off as a total bitch in the comic, a protagonist, but a bitch, and I think that is fun. Like in the Issue where Elisa tries to turn in her badge and quit the force, Chavez throws it back to her, basically rolls her eyes and pretty much tells Elisa to shut up. It was fun.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 7:30:23 am EST from 150.201.114.132

Obed> If you haven't seen any of the Marvel issues of Gargoyles, here's where you can see them.

http://avalon.gargoyles-fans.org/ftp/pictures/comics/
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"For me to poop on!" - Triumph the insult comic dog
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 1:49:56 am EST from 69.234.6.13

winged vampire: Ya i'm aware of both. I think i played the game on an emulator a while back. I haven't actually read any of the old comic, though judging by many of the comments here, i gather that it is very lackluster. Just fantasizing about what a modern Gargoyles video game would be like...
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 12:31:53 am EST from 71.57.178.10

Jurgen> Excellant rant on "The Green". I wholeheartedly agree with you on all of it pretty much.
"Matt, you're complaining about DL's apparent expectation that a gay Lex should exhibit gay stereotypes, and then jump up in reaction to mention of "beefy gay guys." The irony amuses me."
Well, it amuses me too. Afterall, I was mostly making a joke. Mostly. *Intentionally mimics Newt from "Aliens"*

Speaking of gay characters, is there anyone else in the series we've met that anyone suspects might be homosexual? I've wondered about Matt Bluestone a bit, but hes probably straight. Maybe someone from the World Tour, I'd have to think about it.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 12:31:05 am EST from 150.201.114.132

I need to find an avy and I'm sick of using that other color. *barf*
The Winged Vampire - [The_Winged_Vampire@hotmail.com]
It's morphin' time!
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 12:18:14 am EST from 205.238.242.228

Quote: Obed-->it would be awesome if the comic did well enough that more merchandise would appear and perhaps video games.<--

There were comics and video games in the past. Marvel released the original Gargoyles comics a decade ago, and in that same timeline, the Gargoyles video game was produced for both Nintendo and Sega.
The Winged Vampire - [The_Winged_Vampire@hotmail.com]
It's morphin' time!
posted @ Thu, Mar 30, 2006 12:15:08 am EST from 205.238.242.228

Congrats, Kyth! When I finally get around to it, I'll look for your name.

*is a lousy gamer*
Asatira
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 11:28:57 pm EST from 66.168.244.117

*squeee* wow setzer's in it! ^ - ^ yay setzer was my fav chara from ff6...can't wait to get it on friday...i've tried to read as little as possible about KH2, so i don't know much about who's in it...gah, that just makes me want it more. o.O

hmmm...i know it's probably silly, but it would be totally awesome if there were a Gargoyles section in KH...it would be awesome if the comic did well enough that more merchandise would appear and perhaps video games. I still think Gargoyles would make a great video game.
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 11:25:03 pm EST from 71.57.178.10

Addendum: Since I forgot to state the obvious... KH2 is for PlayStation 2. Yay!
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 11:13:50 pm EST from 24.126.11.109

Somewhat off-topic, but somewhat not.

Kingdom Hearts 2 is out. This is to SQUEE! One, because it's the third game I worked on as a Quality Assurance tester for Square Enix, Inc. My name is in the credits (as Kythera Contreras). WOOHOO!

Second... Crispin Freeman voiced the character Setzer (who some Final Fantasy fans might recognize). Crispin Freeman is also on the guest list for this year's Gathering of the Gargoyles.

HUZZAH!
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 11:06:00 pm EST from 24.126.11.109

I can bet for how preachy tonight's South Park was, will end up stirring the $h!+ pot here.
The Winged Vampire - [The_Winged_Vampire@hotmail.com]
It's morphin' time!
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 10:46:30 pm EST from 199.224.75.218

Just to add to Todd very inciteful summary (I knew there was an originator of the Grail story and he died before finishing, just didn't know his name): if I remember correctly, some versions of the story have Parcifal finding it more than once. In both times, it was in the possession of the Fisher King, who is usually suffering from some wound that will never heal unless someone asks the right question (either what the cup is or why does the King's wound not heal). The first time, Parcifal doesn't ask it, and the court and Grail disappear. After some time of questing, he finds it again, and this time asks the question.

In later mixing with the Arthurian legend, Galahad, the son of Lancelot and Elaine, because of his spiritual purity, is one of the knights (I think a couple others actual find it, too) to find it and either dies or disappears, his task done. Over the years, I've heard tales about how the Grail as connected Jesus came to the English area: Joseph of Arimathea possesed the cup after the Crucifiction, and over time eventually made his way to England, and some say he left it at Avalon. As Todd said, this is clearly a bit of background to explain the specialness of it. The whole bloodline thing is really a pretty recent idea, and doesn't really add to the literary aspect of the Grail stories.

Corrections much appreciated.
Asatira
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 8:30:19 pm EST from 66.168.244.117

Just sent out my registration for the Gathering. Woohoo!! Now if only I get the days off from work approved.

Lex gay> I don't remember him leaping from tree to tree on the rivers of British Columbia. But wasn't he in an episode of Stairs?
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 7:14:48 pm EST from 207.207.40.130

To briefly answer Matt's question, the Grail first turns up in Arthurian legend as simply a wonder-working vessel. (It's even thought that it might be a serving-dish rather than a cup.) That's how it appears in its earliest mention, in "Perceval" by Chretien de Troyes, with no connection made to Jesus or the Last Supper. ("Perceval" introduced Percival into the Arthurian legend; Blanchefleur, too, though the Blanchefleur of Greg's Masterplan is based on Roger Lancelyn Green's take on her rather than Chretien's.) The notion of the Grail being connected to Jesus doesn't occur until people began writing continuations to "Perceval" (which Chretien had never finished) and started working out where the Grail had originally come from. Even then, it was treated more as a wonder-working object in the Arthurian universe that just happened to be connected to Jesus; nobody ever claimed to have the real-life Holy Grail, or suggested that it had any existence outside of Arthurian romance. (Nowadays, of course, the Grail has become at times partly divorced from its original Arthurian context, as witness books like "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" and "The Da Vinci Code". To me, and no doubt to Greg as well, the Grail belongs more in the same category as Excalibur and the Round Table, rather than with, say, the Ark of the Covenant or the Shroud of Turin.)

At any rate, the fact that Duval was apparently acting in defiance of the Grail's wishes in many cases and had had to pay a price for that would probably have protected Greg and "Gargoyles" from any charges that having the head of the Illuminati be the Grail's guardian could be an attack on Christianity.
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 6:46:08 pm EST from 4.244.214.192

Jurgan: At last! Someone who shares my view of LA! This has been such a great week for me! Unless someone here lives in South Central, in which case, I'm truly sorry. ( ;

But seriously, I think the issue most people have with "The Green" is that the subtlety of the message was a bit lacking. Semantically, if the Mayan clan are villains, so are the Manhattan clan, since vigilantism is also illegal. I don't think they're "villains," per se, since they're only acting on instinct, for the most part. But sadly, most human legal systems probably wouldn't even recognize the sentience of a gargoyle.

And also, it is possible to overanalyze "South Park." ( ;


And at the risk of sounding unpopular, I don't think Duval's position would be much of an attack on Christianity because in real life, the church has far worse things to be ashamed of. Mind you, when I say "church," I'm not referring to the everyday practicing members, just those who have been in charge throughout its history. I won't get into all that here, though, because I've probably said too much already
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
Punctuation is your friend. Punctuation will not bite you and throw you in the basement.
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 4:43:47 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

So, we've been talking about The Green. My feelings on it are kind of mixed. I actually thought that Jackal and Hyena were starting to get silly by this point. The "carving" was disturbing, yes, but other than that, J and H weren't as threatening to me as they were in the past. I thought the environmental message was done pretty well, honestly. It wasn't perfect, but I liked that it had Elisa insisting on working within the law while Goliath was on the side of the Mayan Clan. I take serious issue, though, with the claim that the Mayan Clan are somehow the villains because of the methods they use to protect the forest. Claiming that what they did is "illegal" makes no sense. Humans don't recognize the existence of gargoyles, and the law pays no attention to their needs. The forest is their home. They should have the right to defend their home regardless of the fact that, by human law, a corporation "owns" it. Arguing otherwise is like early Europeans claiming right of ownership over land in the Americas and saying that the Indians who had been living there for generations were violating European law by not vacating immediately. Which they were, but very few people today would claim that it was justified. Surely the people living on the land should have a say in what happens to it.

Moreover, I have always been kind of disturbed by the notion that the value of something in nature is defined only by how it relates to humans. I do believe that the forest has rights of its own, and the fact that it existed long before we did should be enough to explain why we don't have a right to destroy it. But if you insist on relating it to humans, it is true that without the forests we would have no oxygen left to breathe. The rainforests are rightfully called the lungs of the Earth- to carry on with this analogy, cutting them down indiscriminately is like chain-smoking. As for that horrible South Park episode- maybe I'm missing the point, and maybe they were just trying to be ironic, but the message that "the rainforest is dangerous, so we should tear it down" is absolute bullshit. Hell, South Central L.A. is dangerous- should we go ahead and nuke it? Yes, the rainforest is dangerous. Rather than take that as a challenge, and saying we have to destroy it, I'd say it's a sign that we should leave it alone. I don't see why we'd cut off our nose to spite our face. I remember someone asked Greg once if he thought the idea of "sentience" is overused- for example, most of the Quarreymen thought it was okay to kill gargoyles because they weren't "sentient." Just because something can't think means that we have the right to destroy it? I understand killing animals to eat, and I believe it is right. But that doesn't mean we have the right to kill any animal just for the hell of it. The forest has a right to live. I disagree that "there's no such thing as a few trees-" subsistence farming is certainly possible, but we should be careful how it is done, or else it may be too late. Sorry, I know I'm getting really fired up, but this is a very important subject to me. The idea that "it's okay to destroy it, because it's not much use to us" is the height of arrogance, and I can't stand it.

On a completely different subject: Matt, you're complaining about DL's apparent expectation that a gay Lex should exhibit gay stereotypes, and then jump up in reaction to mention of "beefy gay guys." The irony amuses me.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
"Die, die, we all pass away/ But don't wear a frown, 'cause it's really okay./ You might try to hide, and you might try to pray/ But we all end up the remains of the day." -"Remains of the Day," from The Corpse Bride
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 4:09:34 pm EST from 68.58.253.131

I brought coffee. Who wants some?
The Winged Vampire - [The_Winged_Vampire@hotmail.com]
It's morphin' time!
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 3:58:28 pm EST from 216.37.226.32

LoL, very funny Harvester, you know what I meant, god I never get tired of this website. So much to learn and so many interesting topics and people!
Dragomir
"Don't hate me because I'm devious," Demona cues as she strikes an enticing pose for the audience, evoking jealous glares from the other contestants
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 2:40:04 pm EST from 71.192.76.212

*ears perk up* Sorry for the >triple< post, but did someone mention beefy gay guys? hehee.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 9:34:15 am EST from 150.201.114.132

I've said my piece on the Lex/gay issue. In fact, I think over the last year or so we ALL have.

Todd> In a nutshell, what IS King Arthur's connection to the Holy Grail? In Arthurian legend, is the Grail still the same cup used by Jesus or is it something else?
As for the Christianity element, well, like MANY issues, I can see Christians being split on whether its sacrilege or not. Depends on how hard they look. It's like the series itself, if a hardcore fundamntalist Christian takes a passing glance at the series, they may think it is demonic and evil, but any person who looks deeper will see that it is not, assuming they have an open mind.
In any event, I'm sure if Greg brought in a religious element he would be careful and respectful and intelligent in its use. I mean, hes not going to have Duval using the Grail to poison the world's water supply or something.

Frankly, I've always been a bit more worried about the Quarrymen being such blatant KKK-like people. I've always been afraid the KKK would sue over it, though I suppose the Ku Klux Klan would first have to admit that they are very similiar to the main villains of our series first, and I doubt they'd do that.

Random Thought> Would've been interesting if they had called themselves the Quarrymen Clan (or Klan, or even Qlan) as a nice foil to the Gargoyle Clans.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 8:31:29 am EST from 150.201.114.132

I've said my piece on the Lex/gay issue. In fact, I think over the last year or so we ALL have.

Todd> In a nutshell, what IS King Arthur's connection to the Holy Grail? In Arthurian legend, is the Grail still the same cup used by Jesus or is it something else?
As for the Christianity element, well, like MANY issues, I can see Christians being split on whether its sacrilege or not. Depends on how hard they look. It's like the series itself, if a hardcore fundamntalist Christian takes a passing glance at the series, they may think it is demonic and evil, but any person who looks deeper will see that it is not, assuming they have an open mind.
In any event, I'm sure if Greg brought in a religious element he would be careful and respectful and intelligent in its use. I mean, hes not going to have Duval using the Grail to poison the world's water supply or something.

Frankly, I've always been a bit more worried about the Quarrymen being such blatant KKK-like people. I've always been afraid the KKK would sue over it, though I suppose the Ku Klux Klan would first have to admit that they are very similiar to the main villains of our series first, and I doubt they'd do that.

Random Thought> Would've been interesting if they had called themselves the Quarrymen Clan (or Klan, or even Qlan) as a nice foil to the Gargoyle Clans.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 8:30:38 am EST from 150.201.114.132

DL>And how should Lexington act to be considered gay? The stereotypical flaming fairy? Should he be interested in Broadway shows and gossiping about celebrities. Gargoyles was about tearing DOWN stereotypes. Lexington doesn't "act" gay because for the simple fact, he is a normal gargoyle. There is no ONE way to act to be of a certain sexual orentation. Do all heterosexual gargoyles act the very same way? If you looking for "evidence" in the series by looking at it in one stereotypical light, then no, you will never see it.
Siren - [sirengarg@yahoo.com]
Click my name for my newest Gargoyles (Brooklyn/Maggie/Talon) music video!
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 7:21:34 am EST from 65.33.112.205

While we're on the topic of controversial elements in the Gargoyles Universe, here's one: Duval, head of the Illuminati Society, also being the guardian of the Holy Grail. I've sometimes wondered whether that could have been misinterpreted by some viewers as an attack on Christianity: the keeper of a relic with ties to Christianity being also the head of an organization that's providing financial assistance to a violent anti-gargoyle hate group. Of course, Greg's indicated that the Grail doesn't approve of a lot of the things that Duval's been doing (and he'd be focusing on its connections to the legends of King Arthur rather than to its connections to Jesus Christ anyway), so maybe it wouldn't be so large an issue.
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 7:16:49 am EST from 4.244.214.238

Dragomir: <Well I hope?> So you don't know if you hope or not? Good luck with that, I hope it gets fixed soon.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Sweetie, get mommy her bazooka!" -Harley Quinn ("Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker")
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 6:57:02 am EST from 69.174.3.196

Hey guys, how is everyone doing this week? Well I hope? Anywho, I have no problem with Lex being gay either, though I will admit I was surprised to learn he was gay once I started hanging around this site on a regular basis. I always just thought of him as the adorable kid brother of the Trio (I honestly NEVER suspected him of being gay for a second, lol). I wonder if Mr. Weisman will be able to portray Lex as gay in the comics since they are intended for ages thirteen and up, or if Disney will forbid him from doing so like in the TV show (I hate it when an aspect of a character's nature is written down somewhere but is never used or revealed in the series itself). If Lex is gay, let him be gay I say! Gargoyles always did such a great job of showing and promoting diversity on the show, and I hope that never changes. (:
Dragomir
"Don't hate me because I'm devious," Demona cues as she strikes an enticing pose for the audience, evoking jealous glares from the other contestants
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 6:16:15 am EST from 71.192.76.212

Demonic lover-- Wait, wait, wait... Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you sound like you take issue with Lex being gay (that is to say, you don't seem to like the fact that Lexington is gay). Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but when you first started posting here, weren't you kinda militantly pro-gay? You also didn't seem to have any problems with fantasizing about Goliath being gay. I also remember you making a big deal about having a boyfriend and that causing some family issues for you. Or am I confusing you with somebody else? I mean, you list yourself as bi and you've got a few beefy gay guys friended in your MySpace profile as well (and if you're really only 14, that makes me raise an eyebrow for other reasons, but I digress)... Am I missing something, here? **Blinkblink**
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 3:18:57 am EST from 24.126.11.109

-->Lex being gay<--

Let me ask everyone this....

What does it matter if Lex is gay or not? And should it be such a big deal? If it shouldn't, then why is it? Better yet, why do I bother?

I don't have a problem with Lex being gay (saying that Lex IS gay according to Greg). If you believe he should be gay, that's fine. If you believe he shouldn't be gay, that's fine. If you just don't give a rat's ass, it's all fine, just the same. In that respect, I fail to see what the big deal is.

-->South Park<--

The voice actor who played Chef quit the team. I believe this is why we have the Darth Chef now. I'll have to watch it this week to see where it goes.

Man is this week off to a rough beginning. I don't know if I should poke in or if I should polish the zords this week. Hey, I found a quarter!
The Winged Vampire - [The_Winged_Vampire@hotmail.com]
It's morphin' time!
posted @ Wed, Mar 29, 2006 12:34:08 am EST from 205.238.242.120

Vinnie> Great point about the Mayan Clan's rookery and the future generations. I asked Greg about that once in Ask Greg, it's in the Mayan Clan archive. Basically he said there were many things, including the rookery, that he would've liked to show in the episode, but the writer's had to narrow the focus down to fit the time limits. I'm sure Goliath, Angela, Elisa and Bronx were shown the rookery though, same thing with Ishimura. Doubt they saw the London Clan's rookery though since they didn't leave London for the Clan's country estate. There is also a beast egg on Avalon when Goliath and Co. visit there. Maybe they saw that one too. Would've been nice to see some Clan's eggs at some point though. Oh, well.

Demonic Lover> Here we go again.
"C'mon! I've seen most of the ep's with Lex in them. He does nothing that is gay in them! What makes you think that he is gay?"
Well, I've seen ALL the episodes with Lex in them, and I don't see him do anything straight in them either, unless you consider competeing with his brothers a heterosexual activity, which I assure you it is not. It kinda irks me a bit that you assume everyone is straight until proven gay. That is silly.
And count me in as another person who always thought Lex was gay, since years before Greg came out and said it. In fact, I knew Lex was gay before I knew I was by at least a couple years!
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 9:43:57 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

Patrick> "I can bring my VHS of "They Live" to The Gathering in June if anyone would like to have it added to the roster for video showings in the con suite. :)"

I have a DVD copy of "They Live" if you'd rather use that. (I had brought it to G2004 and got it signed by Keith David. I had him sign it "Not this year." ;)

Now the question is, does anyone have a copy of "Men At Work" they'd like to lend? ;)
Leo
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 9:34:37 pm EST from 68.107.154.71

DL> Greg Weisman confirmed it. That (and the fact that Lex always set off my gaydar anyways) is good enough for me.

The Green> Decent episode. Did get a little prechy, but had nice animation, a cool Lex/Broadway/Hyena battle scene, and we even got a little into Jackal's sociopathic fantasies. Nice.
King Cobra3 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 9:25:55 pm EST from 209.239.132.38

DL: I'm afraid I too must gawk at your total lack of logic. Did Rock Hudson "look" gay? Does Ian McKellan "look" gay? Does Richard Simmons "look" gay? Wait. Scratch that last one. But anyway, I agree with Spacebabie.

Alex: <Heart? What kind of lame power is "Heart"?> It wasn't that. They just needed to make up a bullshit element because they were representing all the ethnicities except for Latinos.

Okay, I gotta turn in.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Sweetie, get mommy her bazooka!" -Harley Quinn ("Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker")
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 8:56:28 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

DL>> Here's what make us think Lexington is gay:
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=201 (at the bottom)
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=8031
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=8320
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=8302
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=7946
Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Fans]
Earth! Fire! Wind! Water! Heart! ... Heart? What kind of lame power is "Heart"?
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 8:19:30 pm EST from 216.145.68.246

Yup, what a funny way to begin the new season of South Park. I am upset that Chef died, was brought back to life and is now "Chef Vader" and will probably want to have sex with little children for the rest of the series. That would suck. DAMN THAT FRUITY LITTLE CLUB, DAMN THEM TO HELL!!!!!!!!
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"For me to poop on!" - Triumph the insult comic dog
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 7:52:56 pm EST from 69.234.6.13

I'm not saying "The Green" was my favorite or least favorite. I agree and disagree with a lot of points. For my final two cents, I think if there had been more follow-up, or the chance for later follow through, it may have stood better. But its problem is Goliath and crew were there for a limited amount of time, and things tend to be more black and white when shown in such a small context than if drawn out. There was the oversimplification of environment = good, industry = bad (which seeing now I'd probably dislike), but again, not much time to really discuss it. The environmental aspect of the episode may have been meant for more of a launching point for discussion and investigation, and to provide a "cause" for the Mayan clan. In real life, things are not so cut and dry. The good things: we get to see a new clan, and we get some more characterization of Jackal and Hyena.

Anyone else still freaked about the idea of Jackal carving his face over Goliaths? bbrrr...
Asatira
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 7:51:40 pm EST from 66.168.244.117

Vinnie: Don't forget that Renard's health was declining. Did anyone else think he sounded a bit more tired than usual in "The Gathering"?

Patrick: <"Oh, you mean like a little candy?"> "No, I mean my balls."

Speaking of South Park, did anyone else happen to catch last week's episode? About the only thing it was missing was an excuse for Chef to break free of the bed and shout "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Sweetie, get mommy her bazooka!" -Harley Quinn ("Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker")
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 7:14:09 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

Hey everybody have you seen my balls, they're big and salty and brown.
If you ever need a quick pick-me-up,
just stick my balls in your mouth.

Ooo,
suck on my chocolate salty balls.
Put 'em in your mouth and suck 'em.
Suck on my chocolate salty balls,
they're packed full of vitamins, and good for you,
so suck on my balls!
The Winged Vampire - [The_Winged_Vampire@hotmail.com]
It's morphin' time!
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 7:02:07 pm EST from 216.37.226.116

It's the silliness and overexxageration that made Captain Planet crash and burn like it did. When the baddies did something to mess up the environment, they only did it judt to do it. "The green" showed this in a more realistic sense, that the farmers cutting down the trees, probably for some logging company, needed to do so to have the money to take care of their families. This is a very sharp contrast to squads clearing the forest with flamethrowers and huge-ass mechs like it's some kind of game.

I can't say that "The Green" was my favorite episode, even though the issue was dealt with in probably the most realistic way I have seen yet.
The Winged Vampire - [The_Winged_Vampire@hotmail.com]
It's morphin' time!
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 6:58:35 pm EST from 216.37.226.116

I can bring my VHS of "They Live" to The Gathering in June if anyone would like to have it added to the roster for video showings in the con suite. :)

<< Brooklyn. "Lexington, are you okay?"
Lexington: "I'm super, thanks for asking" >>

Broadway: "Hey guys, would you like to try my chocolate salty balls?"
Angela: "Oh, you mean like a little candy?"

And, um... I'll just stop there. ;)

87 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Valencia, California!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass. And I'm all out of bubblegum." - Roddy Piper, "They Live"
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 6:46:12 pm EST from 66.72.201.65

About The Green: All in all I'd say it was one of the better world tour episodes. But it could have been better if they'd played up the Mayan clans rookery. If that was the case then the lesson could have been that we are merely keepers of the land for the next generation. The way it came off though, not being Captain Planet level silliness, was to me a balanced view. The farmers didn't look like foreignors and we never saw Renard once in the episode proving that a CEO is not capable of overseeing every part of a corporation.(And thankfully the writers didn't use Xanatos)
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Peace!
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 6:41:10 pm EST from 69.54.209.135

First things first...

If that is you Shendu, leave now. You have caused enough trouble with this last year. Having stated the obvious, you have no business here whatsoever. I'm keeping my eye on you, so don't think you can come here and pull this same kind of bull crap all over again.

If this is someone else, by all means, carry on.

Now onto the topic at hand....

-->The Green<--

Having a dislike for this episode and a higher preference for others is not something that is going to be uncommon, in this fandom, or any other for that matter. Not to be anal or anything, but preferring "Deadly Force" over "The Green" and "Lighthouse...." is in no way any different than preferring DinoThunder and SPD over Wild Force.

It's entirely up to you.

Let's try not to make a big deal about it. And right now it looks like it's going in that direction.

So cool it or I'll squirt everyone with the hose. :p (Or worse yet, greg will poke in and offer another rebuke.)
The Winged Vampire - [The_Winged_Vampire@hotmail.com]
It's morphin' time!
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 6:25:54 pm EST from 216.37.226.116

In the intrests of being accurate, since we as a room have been criticizing people for not reading the posts of others carefully enough, DemonicLover ACTUALLY asked what Lex does that makes him look gay in any episodes. Which is a little different than simply saying, "he doesn't look gay".

In answer to you question, DL, Greg Weisman revealed that Lexington is gay at a previous Gathering of the Gargoyles, bring both an answer and a lot more questions to the speculation over Lex's future mate. As for the episodes, there really isn't anything in them to indicate Lex's sexuality. One reason for this is that Lex is not "out" yet and may well not even be aware of the fact that he's gay. The other is that with the culture in this country the way it is right now, we're not quite ready yet to have an openly gay character on a television show that's supposedly aimed at children. So even if the TV series had continued, it's quite possible that Lex's sexuality would not have been explored any further. Whether the comic will deal with the issue or not remains to be seen.
Demonskrye
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 5:58:19 pm EST from 209.6.250.47

If you take the first letter of the first line in the episodes Lexington features in, it spells out "I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay." Well, okay, no, it doesn't. (Or does it?)

Matt: Good comments. I'll see what I make of it if the DVD comes out. :)
Ed
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 5:42:19 pm EST from 213.187.38.108

I think part of my brain just died.

"He doesn't look gay"

:blinks:

Yes, I'm pretty sure Greg W is going to apologize for not having Lexington wear a bright pink bandanna around his neck and wear black leather shorts and also apologize for not having the following lines in the series.

Brooklyn. "Lexington, are you okay?"

Lexington: "I'm super, thanks for asking"

All because he didn't look gay, wich means he couldn't possibly be gay.

:Mind boggles:
Spacebabie - [spacebabie@hotmail.com]
"People are like stars. There are bright ones, and then there are those who are dim."~ Hot Ice Hilda
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 5:36:45 pm EST from 70.185.6.104

Oops. My bad! it is just hard for me too think that Lex is gay. what does he do that makes him look gay? C'mon! I've seen most of the ep's with Lex in them. He does nothing that is gay in them! What makes you think that he is gay?
Demonic lover
Why don't i give you a good squeeze, theres enough alchcohol in you to fit a hot tub- Rosario/ will and grace
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 4:45:33 pm EST from 165.139.175.97

HofEyes> I'll give you this: Armagedon sucked so bad, it collapsed in on itself and became a blackhole. Worst big-budget film I've ever seen (I say it that way cuz it's not hard to make a bad, low budget film).

Ed> I acknowledge your opinion, but I don't agree with it. I don't think the issue at stack was protecting the environment, I think the issue was HOW to protect the environment. Perhaps when you rewatch the episode (hopefully on DVD) you will see that we get everything from eco-terrorism to changing laws to conservation efforts. I think Elisa and Goliath's disagreement is pivotal and I think Elisa's idea and short speech at the end is very important. And I think THAT is what they take how with them to New York. The need to work together to find a solution that makes everyone happy and actually gets something done.
The episode was not "dumb", it was about disagreements and compromise, failing seperatly or cooperating to make things work.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 4:32:07 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

Ed: As I said the other day, the early episodes never really felt preachy to me. The clan barely knows how a television works in "Thrill of the Hunt" beyond the basic elementary use of one. When Hudson says that they shouldn't believe everything they see on it, it felt like he was speaking more to the clan, not the viewer.

Greg B: All I know is, if we destroy the rainforest, Tony Danza won't have a home. And frankly, I can see an upside to that.

Matt: I'll give you this. The character models for the Guatemalan clan kicked ass.

Jen: <My favorite though, HAS to be "They Live", where he was paired up with The Rowdy Roddy Piper!>

YES. My day sucked until I read that. As far as I can tell, the only severe blemish in Keith David's career was "Men at Work." But he's one of those actors that still gives a great performance even when the rest of the film is going down in flames (e.g., "Armageddon." Bruckheimer has yet to give me my money back. Soon I start going after Aerosmith).
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Spiders are singing in the salty breeze, spiders are filling out tax returns. Spinning out webs of deductions and melodies on a private beach in Michigan." -Wilco
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 4:11:28 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

I don't think "The Green" was really much preachier than "Lighthouse" or "Deadly Force" in essence. I mean, 'Gargoyles' isn't a subtle show in terms of its messages anyway. When it has something to say, it comes out and says it -- on vengeance, on literacy, on tolerance, on gun control, on trust issues. It's going out to children. Kids can absorb, or at least go along with and enjoy, more information and more plots than a lot of cartoons give credit for (cf. "City of Stone"). But metaphor and subtle allegory aren't going to have the desired effect in the same way. So, sure, the show often preaches -- but smartly.

In "Deadly Force", we see Elisa needing a gun for a dangerous job contrasted with the glorification of guns in the cinema contrasted with the use of guns on the street by gangsters. We see Elisa being careless and Broadway not taking it seriously, and we see the grief that follows. In "Lighthouse", we see the utility Jeffrey Robbins gets from reading even when blind, the way reading can be inspirational, the way it provides great records and is precious, and we see how illiteracy can be perpetuated by either ignorance (Broadway) or shame (Hudson).

Both of these episodes come to a pretty unequivocal bottom line. But the story has been constructed as an ongoing argument, showing complexity and motivations and cause and effect. The issues are grounded in character and filtered through several different perspectives. Smart writing.

Now, it's been a few years since I've seen "The Green". It's possible I'm being unfair. But I don't recall it having the same sense of complexity. The rainforest is shown to be good and full of helpful healing plants; massive corporate behemoths slashing and burning are shown to be... no, wait for it... bad. We don't really see much of the local humans, and although Goliath and Elisa discuss the gargoyles' methods, it's all pretty theoretical. There's little evidence of conflicting or contrasting motivations or rationale, or even any great character epiphanies of the sort that made other 'issue' stories so effective. The heroes left with respect for the rainforest, but hands up who thinks they were slashing and burning forest at the weekends beforehand?

And even if they were, once they return to New York, how is their newfound discovery that there's a problem with people chopping down the rainforest going to affect them? Gun control in the home is, I'm guessing, something American families will face. Literacy skills are something all kids, and some adults, have to develop. But biodiversity in Guatemala is almost entirely abstract. There's even the possibility that kids might take from it the counterproductive message, "right, so environmental issues are about greedy multinationals and foreign farmers. Got it." There are plenty of environmental issues that are more tangible that could, and I'd argue should, be addressed.

The problem with "The Green" isn't that it's preachy or on-the-nose, that it's tackling greenie issues, or any of that. The problem is that it's dumb. The issue is looked at simplistically, it doesn't really mean *that* much to our core characters, and the focus of concern isn't especially relevant to the audience.
Ed
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 3:31:27 pm EST from 213.187.38.108

AARON> I believe Vogel said that due to Renard's illness, he was running the show. And Greg posted in here a few years back that Renard was not aware of what Vogel was doing.

But, it was still legal.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Each year, the Rainforest is responsible for over three thousand deaths from accidents, attacks or illnesses. There are over seven hundred things in the Rainforest that cause cancer. Join the fight now and help stop the Rainforest before it's too late.
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 3:20:18 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

Honestly, the most interesting aspect of The Green, I think, is that Vogel hired Jackal and Hyena in the first place.

Hmm, problem with the locals, guess we'd better hire a pair of freaky psychotic convicted felons to clear it up for us...

Either Renard's ethics are getting flexible in his old age, or Vogel, despite having made the choice not to screw Renard over in Outfoxed, might still be a lot more... morally grey, shall we say, than we might have thought.

I'd really like to know if Vogel's operating on his own initiative on this one or not...
Aaron - [amgc_art@yahoo.com]
Jack of all trades, Master of porn
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 3:05:50 pm EST from 66.142.70.253

Matt: I don't think you were paying attention before 1994. (I may be dating myself here... but... ) First thing I remember seeing him in was "Platoon" and that was in the 80's. My favorite though, HAS to be "They Live", where he was paired up with The Rowdy Roddy Piper! Man... Now I need a Keith David fix.

Bishansky: You realise now, that you are going to be bombarded with Rainforest Missionaries coming to convert you or kill you. Oh look, there they are now! ;)
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson - [<--- Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"We lived innocently as children... but like all children, we grew up" -- The Magus
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 2:38:35 pm EST from 71.135.229.30

Thanks Doppleganger. Another fact along those lines is that most of the trees cut down in the rainforest are burned. So not only are these trees not taking CO2 out of the air and producing O2, but they are burning and actually causing more CO2 to accumulate in the atmosphere. There are many other reasons the rainforests need "gargoyle protection", but this one was so important that even Greg W mentioned it in his ramble on "The Green".

And as for Turquesa's line about "The forest isn't meant to be owned. It belongs to everyone. Your misguided laws threaten to steal it from future generations." I agree with her first and third sentence totally, but her middle sentence is a sorta half-truth to me. The forest belongs to everyone and/or no one. I for one believe the forest has its own rights.

One has to wonder why Cyberbiotics purchased the property in the first place, and what they were doing it. Cyberbiotics seems like too large a corporation to worry about farming and logging in the third world. *Shrugs* Perhaps they were doing biological research there or something, but you gotta wonder why they couldn't work WITH the Mayan Clan to do that. Something to ask Greg about someday.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 2:23:57 pm EST from 150.201.66.47

Greg Bish.> Well I can see where you might have seen "The Green" turn preachy. But it's not just about clueless people wanting to save the rainforest JUST for saving the rainforest.

As I'm sure you know, the rainforests absorb the C02 that we produce from expiration, pollution, etc. use that and produce oxygen as a waste product. The oxygen that we breathe is produced by the rainforests. No rainforests and we'd be gasping for breathe.

What would happen if all the rainforests were to be cut down? An accumulation of green house gases in the Earths atmoshpere. Which would cause a rise in temperature and ultimately the polar ice caps to melt.

Do I think "The Green" is preachy? Yes. But I don't mind it. An issue like this you can't get too preachy. Hail to the preachiness. :P
Doppleganger - [erodri52000@yahoo.com]
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 2:13:15 pm EST from 67.36.179.18

Alex Garg> "and Broadway seems pretty determined to destroy it... and then they hang on to it."
I was under the impression that the gargoyles thought about it a bit and decided that they couldn't let it remain in the museum where it could be stolen, but they remembered that Hyena was putting her laser at it and decided destroying it was actually what she wanted to do. They clearly see this in the episode. In any case, perhaps they just figured that they should keep it in the Clocktower's backroom with the other talismans to increase their collection, lol. Of course, they probably hadn't yet realized that all the talismans were gone already.

And speaking of Obsidiana turning to stone. Does anyone else notice how torn up her wing is after Jackal knocks that tree on her. The bone is all twisted at a weird angle and the webbing of the wing is severely torn. I think that it is the worst injury we've seen a gargoyle sustain and be healed by the stone sleep.

And speaking of Keith David, I was wondering, I don't recall ever really hearing his voice or seeing him act in anything before Gargoyles. After Gargoyles hes all over the place so it seems. Did Gargoyles kick off his career or was I just not paying attention to his voice before 1994?

Greg B> Considering how much we disagree on its amazing that we both have Libertarian leanings. Go us.

I really am amazed that so many of you dislike "The Green". it's always been one of my favorites and I assumed everyone else enjoyed it to. Oh well. I guess this is a good time to tell you all that while I like "The Mirror" a lot, I don't think it was a great episode. It was good, but not great. I have a feeling I'm going to get beat up for that, lol.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 2:01:11 pm EST from 150.201.66.47

"The Green" - IMO>> The episode's ultimate failing, for me, wasn't that it was raising an important issue but that it was preachy, which Gargoyles had largely avoided being to that point.

And preachy aside, I thought the writing was weak overall; which is disappointing because I think most of the other episodes by Cary Bates are good.

I think what bothered me most in the episode was the meant-to-be cliffhanger in NYC: Lexington and Broadway are debate on whether or not they should destroy the amulet, they conclude it's probably evil, they have no evidence to suggest it's not, and Broadway seems pretty determined to destroy it... and then they hang on to it.

Not buying that so much.

And Obsidiana's turning to stone wasn't convincing as to suggest they *had* destroyed the amulet because the animation was pretty clear in showing that her gem just fell off.

So, yeah, not one of my favorite eps; but they can't all be winners.
Alex Garg - [<-- Frappr Gargoyles Friends]
Earth! Fire! Wind! Water! Heart! ... Heart? What kind of lame power is "Heart"?
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 1:26:38 pm EST from 216.145.68.246

Is there anything Keith David doesn't narrate?

THE GREEN> I'm sorry, but I still say that episode came off as Captain Planet Lite. I mean, Cyberbiotics legally owned that land. They were free to do as they saw fit, and then you have these gargoyles acting as eco-terrorists destroying their property and terrorizing their employees as well as locals.

"There's no such thing as a few trees."

I groan whenever I hear that line. What the Mayan Clan was doing was eco terrorism, no more, no less. Can you really blame Vogel for bringing in Jackal and Hyena to play exterminator? No. The only people at fault here were the Mayan Clan and maybe the Guatamalan government for selling the land to Cyberbiotics... but again, it was their land to do with as they saw fit.

"The forest belongs to everyone." ... Commies ;)

Why, yes, I am a Capitalist Libertarian.

And, I think I'll let the kids from "South Park" explain it best with the gift of song...

Doo-doo-doo, da-da-do-do-wow!
There's a place called the rainforest that truly sucks ass
Let's knock it all down and get rid of it fast
You say 'save the rainforest', but what do you know?
You've never been to the rainforest before!
Getting Gay with Kids is here
To tell you things you might not like to hear
You only fight these causes 'cos caring sells
All you activists can go fuck yourselves.

Someday if we work hard boys and girls..
There'll be no more rainforests left in the entire world..
Getting Gay with Kids is here
To spread the word, and bring you cheer
Getting Gay with Kids is here
Lets knock down the rainforest, whaddaya say?
It's totally gay, It's totally gay!
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Each year, the Rainforest is responsible for over three thousand deaths from accidents, attacks or illnesses. There are over seven hundred things in the Rainforest that cause cancer. Join the fight now and help stop the Rainforest before it's too late.
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 11:42:16 am EST from 65.33.202.237

Chameleongirl-- o.-

...I'll get you for that. Later. ;]
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 11:05:00 am EST from 24.126.11.109

In the "Gargoyles V.A.'s in Other Shows" category: You might want to tune into History Channel's "The History Channel Classroom" through Thursday. They're showing a 4-part series on The Crusades, narrated by Keith David. It's on at 6/5/4/6am ET/CT/MT/PT.
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 7:36:08 am EST from 4.230.255.254

Of course, if the gargoyles are going to play golf, they'd better not bring Bronx to the links with them. He'd get them banned from the course for life after he enlarged all the holes, created new holes, chewed up the golf balls, and so on.
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 7:33:43 am EST from 4.244.212.78

I actually liked "Golem." As I said last week, Reynard really spoke to me in "Outfoxed." So I liked seeing him go through that moment of weakness. Happens to the best of us. Again, it felt like the episode was speaking to me on a personal level.

Matt: Yeah, I forgot about "Vendettas." But at least we finally got to see SOMEONE succeed at getting revenge.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"You have the right to free speech. As long as you're not dumb enough to actually try it!" -The only band that really matters.
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 6:02:05 am EST from 69.174.3.196

Kyt > Does this mean Patrick has been pun-ished?
*Runs for it*
Chameleongirl - [<-- Come to the Gathering!]
Chameleon may change her spots, but she refuses to do plaid
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 4:10:22 am EST from 202.87.162.31

Matt: I think what Battlebeast means.. is that we get also get to what Lex and Broadway are doing back in manhattan ;)

I also agree with your choice of episodes.. can't have a perfect episode every time.
Starlioness
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 1:14:00 am EST from 70.58.67.109

Battle Beast> "it also had both Goliath AND Lexington in the same episode. (you know what I mean.)"
I'm afraid I don't...
While I don't hate any one episode, I feel I could easily name at least 10 episodes that are obviously worse than "The Green". "Vendettas" for one. "Legion", "Sentinel", "Lighthouse...", "The Cage" and "Protection" also come to mind. But like I said, I really don't dislike any episode, I just have my favorites and least favorites.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 12:50:48 am EST from 150.201.114.132

**Groaaaaans and throws the Pun Tax Jar at Patrick**
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"
posted @ Tue, Mar 28, 2006 12:30:33 am EST from 24.126.11.109

THE GREEN? WEAK???? Is it weaker than "Vendettas" or "Golem"?

I liked it because it not only showed us New Gargoyles, it also had both Goliath AND Lexington in the same episode. (you know what I mean.) It was also cool, as TODD pointed out, how the distinction between Hyena and JAckle was made more clear.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
that is all I will say.
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 11:49:30 pm EST from 198.53.28.99

Can gargoyles drive? Sure. I bet they can even chip and putt. Playing at night, they'd have the run of the course, too.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"And every time ye take a swing we'll call it a 'stoke', 'cause it'll feel like yer havin' one!" - Robin Williams
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 10:52:31 pm EST from 68.76.122.104

You guys are crazy, "The Green" rules. While not my favorite episode, it is probably one of the episodes I watch the most, and it is definitly in my top five favorite eps. I don't see how it was more preachy than a handful of other episodes, namely "Lighthouse" and I don't see how it was hokey that there was a Gargoyle Clan protecting the rainforest. I think the Sun Amulet and stones was a brilliant concept, and I think the dialogue of the episode is great at showing the contrast of hopelessness and hopefulness that all those who try to protect the environment face. Plus the Clan looks awesome.

But thats okay. I can deal with the fact that you guys don't see it as a very good episode. To each their own, I guess.

Maybe I should've expected this since half the questions in the Mayan Clan archive were asked by myself, lol.

Winged Vampire> Yeah, Demona had a sort of mech thingie that she stole in "The Reckoning"... but she crashed it, so its done for before Lex even got a shot at blowing it up...
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 10:28:34 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

Quote: Matt-->Winged Vampire> Well, Brooklyn mastered riding a motorcycle... after Lex crashed one... and Lexington flew a helicopter... after he crashed it... Lex crashed an airship too, but never got past that part.
And btw, I'll be doin the recap this week, but probably not til Wednesday.<--

You answered the question before I was able to ask it. Thanks for the heads-up.

I forgot about the motorcycles and helicopters. I was a little bit on the goofy/creative side last night and I'm like "can gargoyles drive?" So I got thinking about gargoyles conducting trains, driving trucks while wearing "I heart my rig" caps, pulling out in front of you, using construction equipment, piloting zords and battle mechs, and flying airplanes. Come to think of it I do believe Demona had a battle mech at one time.
The Winged Vampire - [The_Winged_Vampire@hotmail.com]
It's morphin' time!
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 9:59:46 pm EST from 216.37.226.71

To make up for the "preachiness", "The Green" did a good job of showing the difference between Jackal and Hyena. Hyena is just bloodthirsty, while Jackal is both bloodthirsty and clever. If it were left up to Hyena, she'd have just charged at the clan with weapons firing; Jackal, however, comes up with a plan, of Hyena smashing the Mayan Sun Amulet so that Jackal can walk into the pyramid during the day and slaughter the helpless stone gargoyles. (Of course, then Jackal gets outsmarted in turn by Vogel when the latter points out that any damage that the gargoyles do to the Cyberbiotics project the night before will come out of his pay, which means that now Jackal no longer has the luxury of just sitting back and waiting for sunrise!)
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 8:29:40 pm EST from 4.244.18.125

I agree about "The Green." I thought that this was THE weakest episode of the series. The first time I saw this I thought to myself, "Oh, great. 'Gargoyles: Save The Trees." It was overly preachy, I felt that the "we don't turn to stone with these magic amulets in order to save our forest" thing was hokey, but I will say that it's one of my favorite Jackal-Hyena episodes.
Lord GargFan
That's all I have to say about that.
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 8:08:12 pm EST from 67.185.229.228

It's also possible that Greg didn't know that the eggs weren't due to hatch for another few years. The series was just getting started then, and he might not yet have sat down and done the math over the gargoyle generations that he did do later on.
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 7:21:31 pm EST from 4.244.18.125

HoE > True.

"All in all you are a very dying race
Placing trust upon a cruel world.
You never had the things you thought you should have had
And you'll not get them now,
And all the while in perfect time
Your tears are falling on the ground."

- Genesis, "Squonk"

(did that from memory, btw)
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 6:58:36 pm EST from 68.76.122.104

HofEyes> Yeah, I always thought Goliath was getting a bit ahead of himself too, but maybe he only wanted to press the urgency of their care unto Katharine and the Magus. As it is, the eggs actually took a bit longer than 3.5 years to hatch because they were taken to Avalon and waited to hatch in 1078 so as to be synched up correctly. Greg has also implied that the journey was somewhat rough on the eggs and that to set them back a bit.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 6:00:11 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

Matt: My mistake. When Goliath said in 994 that the eggs in the Rookery would soon hatch, I thought that he meant soon, and not in three and a half more years. His comment led me to believe they were near the end of their gestation.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"The Squonk is of a very retiring disposition and due to its ugliness, weeps constantly. It is easy prey for hunters, who simply follow a tear-stained trail. When cornered, it will dissolve itself into tears. True or false?"
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 5:56:36 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

Kanthara> Thanks for the link. I like the beaked female look a lot. One thing I've noticed in fan-art is that whenever any gargoyle is given a beak (male or female), it is always that long round beak that Brook has. There were several other beak types among the Scottish gargoyles and a few more from Ishimura. I wish we saw a few more of those beaks. Take a look at Demona's CoS Clan to see an array of beak types.

Another thing I've noticed is that I have never seen a female gargoyle without hair, only males. I'd say one out of three male Scottish gargoyles was hairless, why do all the females have hair? I'll bet Broadway's mother was hairless, has anyone ever done a drawing of her? Does anyone know where I can find pictures of non fan created characters that we didn't see in the series? Like Goliath's biological parents or Hudson's other kids or whatever?

HoEyes> Well, we have never seen any flashbacks in 988, which is the year the Avalon Clan eggs were laid. Demona would've conceived near the fall equinox 987 and laid her egg near the spring equinox 988. The flashback in "Long Way to Morning" was in 984, about 4 years before she laid her egg and "Awakening" occurred in late 994 after the eggs had been down in the rookery for 6 and a half years.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 5:30:38 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

Did someone say Captain Planet? This might be old news, but I'm compelled to share it anyway.

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=164

Greg B: <I might as well come out and say it. I hate "The Green". Out of the three episodes with a message, "The Green" was the weakest, and the most annoyingly preachy of them all.>

Yes, thank you! Where were you when I said that in here about a month ago? ( ;

But seriously, the thing I loved most about "The Green" was that little moment from Jackal that makes you wonder who's sicker: him or his sister? Between this episode and "Grief," I'd have to put my money on Jackal.


I also think one of the things that really helped earlier episodes from being less preachy was the fact that they were approached from the mindset of a group of beings who have spent the last millenium sleeping through an astronomical amount of change. They don't know you shouldn't believe everything you see on TV, or that gunplay is hardly the glamorous spectacle that motion pictures make it out to be. So it's more about them learning the lessons than it is the viewer.

Jurgan: <Almost every episode had a message of some sort, most commonly related to the importance of tolerance and acceptance, the futility of vengeance, or the necessity of taking responsibility for one's own actions.> The great thing is that almost all the episodes did this through actions rather than words. In "Hunter's Moon," for example, we get to see just what a desire for revenge can do to someone, and what becomes of it.

Christine: Ugh, don't remind me about the 15th. I've barely glanced at my W2s.

Matt: Your remark about pregnant gargoyles set off a thought in my head. I'm wondering now if Demona was in the early stages of pregnancy in the flashback we saw in "Long Way to Morning" (she did seem pretty damn irritated), or if the night that they "defeated" the Archmage took place after the eggs had been delivered and placed in the Rookery.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"The Squonk is of a very retiring disposition and due to its ugliness, weeps constantly. It is easy prey for hunters, who simply follow a tear-stained trail. When cornered, it will dissolve itself into tears. True or false?"
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 5:16:39 pm EST from 69.174.3.196

A poke to Matt -- You asked for a beaked female. I'm pointing to a beaked female below. Please click and enjoy.

Re: Coco=misogynistic: I didn't realise Coco was supposed to be female. Oops! But I do understand the implications. However, my comment wasn't so much about weight as it was about general body shape. Gargoyles are usually hunched creatures. Beaks, long limbs, snakey or lizardy bodies... things seen in males, but not in females.

And as for the car-driving musings... I always wonder if the tail gets in the way, myself. ;)
Kanthara
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 4:51:26 pm EST from 65.93.1.115

I agree with Asatira and Jurgen. All the episodes had a message and I think the writer's did a good job of representing different views or approaches to different issues.

If you all havn't figured it out by now, I freakin' love the Mayan Clan (if only there was an avatar here of one of them...) and of course I love the episode "The Green". Perhaps different episodes strike people in different ways. To me, "Lighthouse" is the epitome of preachy. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the episode, but sometimes it seems the reading issue was being pushed too blatantly. I can see how people could say the same thing about "The Green", but to me, I feel the environmental issue is handled so realistically. Like any good environmentalist, Zafiro and that other Mayan Clan members are obsessed with protecting the rainforest. Thats totally realistic. Like many people who are not environmentalist, Elisa and Goliath can see the problem, but are uncertain of how best to solve it. Elisa represents those who feel laws should be made and enforced protecting the forest while Goliath follows the Greenpeace strategy, protection by force. That's totally realistic. I don't feel the episode ever got that preachy, I mean the Mayan Clan was just expressing their feelings (their hopelessness, their frustration, etc.), not hammering away at the point as was done in "Lighthouse".
*shrugs*
I guess people just interpret episodes differently.

Oh, and about the eating issue. I never meant to imply I wanted Broadway to tell kids to remember to eat their fruits and veggies before each commercial break or anything, I just wouldn't want Broadway to sit around saying "It's a good thing I can live on vendor's pretzels. Yummy."
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 4:34:22 pm EST from 150.201.114.132

I agree that I don't want the series to get preachy. Nothing ruins something more than having a message beat into your head with the subtlty of a baseball bat. That's what I liked about Gargoyles: when they did deliver a message, it doesn't go about it the conventional route. "Lighthouse..." did emphasize reading, but it showed it as a choice. Broadway didn't want to read at first because he saw little need for it, until Macbeth began to read the scrolls. Hudson thought he was too OLD to read, until Robbins explained how he had to learn Braille. "Deadly Force" wasn't anti-gun so much as gun control. I admit "The Green" was closest on the preachy aspect, but it's hard to approach the importance of environmentalism without being a little preachy. That's why Elisa's arguments for some usage stands out, and is pretty much my (attempts at) approach to conservation. I like when the writers have something to say, but they don't make it black and white, or only show one well beaten approach.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 2:32:01 pm EST from 24.214.68.215

I'll agree that The Green did get kind of preachy, but it also had Elisa representing the other side of the argument. I think Lighthouse was kind of preachy, too, especially Broadway's "precious magic" speech and Robbins's ending monologue. I would hardly call those three episodes "the three episodes with a message," though. Almost every episode had a message of some sort, most commonly related to the importance of tolerance and acceptance, the futility of vengeance, or the necessity of taking responsibility for one's own actions.

As for body types: I'm surprised no one mentioned Coco, the proto-Broadway from the original Gargoyles comedy development. She was similar to Broadway in many ways, especially being an overweight gourmand. As I understand it, they felt that showing an overweight female would be seen as mysogynistic, and if they ever showed her as less than a saint, it would be seen as insensitive. Perfect characters are rarely interesting. I think they were unfortunately right- I certainly can't imagine them getting away with all of the eating jokes early Broadway made if he were a female.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 1:14:54 pm EST from 153.9.92.48

Agreed. The last thing I want is for Gargoyles to turn into Captain Planet.

I might as well come out and say it. I hate "The Green". Out of the three episodes with a message, "The Green" was the weakest, and the most annoyingly preachy of them all.

"Deadly Force" got it's message across without being preachy. "Lighthouse" got it's message across without getting preachy. "The Green" fell flat on its face.

Jackal and Hyena were fun, and the Mayan Clan was interesting, but I can't watch that episode without feeling like I am sitting at an Earth Day Summit.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Plato once said that for everything that exists, there is a perfect form of it somewhere. A perfect human being, a perfect chair, a perfect stick, so that everything is a shadow of that one perfect form. Now, if we follow that train of thought, that means that somewhere in the universe there exists the perfect form of the perfect absolute and complete idiot and he left here an hour ago." - Matthew Gideon
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 1:04:31 pm EST from 65.33.202.237

If "Gargoyles" ever went all preachy about healthy eating, saving the environment, or anything else, I'd have to seriously re-evaluate my love of the show. "Gargoyles" taught some good lessons, yes, but it never beat you over the head with them in the way that shows like "Captain Planet" did.

As for hotdogs, please. Elisa's a cop. She eats doughnuts! :P

88 days left until The Gathering 2006 in Valencia, California!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006]
"We shouldn't be mad at Chef for leaving us. We should be mad at that fruity little club for scrambling his brains." - South Park
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 12:58:59 pm EST from 24.106.128.24

Hey, all! Back from a game con. Where I put out a stack of the super-nifty postcards and they were glommed up in a flash! Whee!

We're down to the final few days for story submissions to the Grimorum anthology! Send them in by this Friday!

Art folks, you've got until the 15th of April!

And here's a link to an article by one of the creators of that old 80's D&D cartoon that I found interesting enough to share:
http://www.povonline.com/cols/COL145.htm (or click my name)
Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 11:19:17 am EST from 71.112.172.65

SILENT CHAOS> What you are proposing is not economically feasable. Season 2 volume one has 26 episodes. Season 1 has 13 episodes.

S2V1 is only $10 more than season one was. It's not that much of a price increase. In fact, it's a very good deal.

The things you learn when you spend 18 months in Business School ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Tenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Plato once said that for everything that exists, there is a perfect form of it somewhere. A perfect human being, a perfect chair, a perfect stick, so that everything is a shadow of that one perfect form. Now, if we follow that train of thought, that means that somewhere in the universe there exists the perfect form of the perfect absolute and complete idiot and he left here an hour ago." - Matthew Gideon
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 10:11:13 am EST from 65.33.202.237

I just want to comment about what Greg said about Season 2, Vol 2. I understand that lack of sales on Season 1, vol 1 are putting the second half at risk, but there's something these people don't understand. The lack of sales is due to the jump in price from season 1 to season 2. I know it probably isn't going to happen, but I would think the best solution here (both for the sake of sales and to save the rest of the season) would be to simply lower the price. A lower price would mean that people would be even more willing to go out and buy the DVD, or to put it best, Lower price = more sales. I'm not asking for them to lower the price by $20-30, but to maybe try a $10 price drop and see what happens. Sounds like a reasonable solution to me. I've just been wanting to get this off my chest for a while and thought I'd finally take the opportunity.
Silent Chaos - [dragonmoomba@yahoo.com]
Who fears the silence that comes before the chaos? They should fear it, for it is those moments before that are the most chaotic.
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 10:01:08 am EST from 216.124.211.66

Winged Vampire> Well, Brooklyn mastered riding a motorcycle... after Lex crashed one... and Lexington flew a helicopter... after he crashed it... Lex crashed an airship too, but never got past that part.
And btw, I'll be doin the recap this week, but probably not til Wednesday.

Kris> I tend to agree with you, and I hope that Gargoyles becomes the kind of series where we will see, eventually, a wide range of female gargoyle forms. Ophelia and Una are a start, of course, but I can't wait to see a gargoyle female with a true beak. On a random note, it'll also be interesting to one day see a pregnant gargoyle (about 6 months after conception and shortly before laying an egg). Aside from old Demona and Una, all the females we've seen have been pretty young, between 40 and 80 years old. Perhaps in Dark Ages we would've seen a wider range of female body types, ages, etc. I think part of the problem is that we havn't seen a ton of female gargoyles anyway. I'd say 80% of the gargoyles we've seen on screen have been male.
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 9:45:33 am EST from 150.201.114.132

Matt said:
"I wouldn't want to see the Gargoyles Universe endorse an unhealthy lifestyle. Different body types are wonderful, as it reflects reality, but showing a character who is in bad shape and continues to eat poorly and exercise little is just as bad as Broadway and Hudson's attitudes towards reading in Lighthouse."

I doubt we'll ever see Gargoyles endorsing those things, but I also think it's important to portray many of the human characters and their habits as true to life as possible. This is kinda ridiculous, but if it were ever stated as fact that all Elisa DID eat was hot dogs (I'm not sure how they could work that into the dialogue of the series without it being hokey or without making it seem like hyperbole on Elisa's part, and I doubt Greg would go out of his way to give a mundane series fact like that when speaking seriously), that'd be perfectly okay. A lot of folks do that, eat quickie foods, who're lazy about their diets, stubborn about change, don't like to take the time go grocery shopping, or are maybe living in poverty and take the cheapest McMeals they can find.

With the series in comic book form, I think they can go ahead and play a little more fast and loose with the "morality" of the characters, not that the heroes of this franchise were perfectly squeaky clean knights in shining armor the whole way through. I'm not saying I'd wanna see Elisa go all dark or anything like that (and anyway, Greg has said he's not gonna use the comics to go all gorey or have the Gargs swearing or showing any more than brief nudity beyond scenes where it's practical to feature them like in "Eye of the Beholder"), but there's also no Standards & Practices to answer to anymore. Greg only has to consider Disney's opinions as far as I know (doubt Slave Labor would have any issues with adult showings of the above-mentioned elements), but I'm guessing (hoping) they won't be monitoring and giving notes on the creative direction of the series too much, if at all. It seems like there'll be way less children reading the comic than there were watching the series, though I understand that many here would still like the comic to be something they can show to kids of their own or in their family. And it would probably be to the benefit of the comic if it can be put in the kids or at least teen section in bookstores once enough issues have passed that it can release a trade paperback collection. But I don't think it NEEDS to be as "safe" as the series was, if story dictates that things need to get a little more risque sometimes (to be fair of course--Gargoyles: one of the darker North American afternoon animated series ever). And showing unhealthy behaviours without endorsing them is certainly okay and even probable. Definitely welcome if you want a fictional world and its people to be believable.

Kanthara said:
"why is it so much easier to accept a wide range of body shapes for male gargoyles, while female gargoyles are more often than not done following humanoid proportions and looks?"

People are already discussing and have maybe covered the reasons there're so few non-human-resembling female bodytypes, so how about some speculation on why there were a generous helping of varieties of male garg types? It seems to apply to many instances in animation and comics when there're other sentient races. Even with mutants in X-Men for example, you often have way more animalistic/alien traits in the males than in the female population (though there HAVE been "grotesque" X-women and villains as well).

I think a lot of it has to do with the common mindset that human males are beasts to begin with, so when an artist or writer is constructing something imaginary, starting out with the basic human form of a male and adding animalistic attributes such as facial features, extra limbs, stance, and style/method of movement, it all comes pretty naturally in their (our) imaginations. There's no doubt that women can be very primal as well, but that isn't shown in entertainment as often as men behaving in ways some see as "base".

I dunno, that's part of my theory, for starters.

Does anyone else wonder how all these fantasy/sci-fi humanoids would look if this stuff was generally more aimed at a female demographic and if women had maybe been running the various entertainment industries instead of guys? I wonder if the values for what can be considered recognizably female or even beautiful in mutants, monsters, aliens, and other races would be all that changed.
Kris - [Ontario, Canada]
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 9:01:25 am EST from 24.137.192.172

This is the first time in weeks I've missed the top ten. And I didn't comment again all last week. Part of that is that I've been busy, but the real reason is that there's been so much animosity here, what with arguing about the comic's art and going to The Gathering, that I didn't much feel like sticking my head in. I'm not trying to point the finger at anyone or sound judgmental, but I've at times been afraid to check here because I figured I'd just see more fighting. Fortunately, Greg's intervention seems to have put an end to that, so let's hope this coming week is a more friendly yet just as active one.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
"Die, die, we all fade away/ But don't wear a frown, 'cause it's all okay./ You might try to hide, and you might try to pray/ But we all end up the remains of the day." -"Remains of the Day," from The Corpse Bride
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 3:25:47 am EST from 68.58.253.131

I wonder if gargoyles are able to operate vehicles, like cars, trucks, zords, and other machinery, without demolishing them in the process.

Yeah, my mind is off on another planet at the moment. ;)
The Winged Vampire - [The_Winged_Vampire@hotmail.com]
It's morphin' time!
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 2:35:00 am EST from 216.37.154.241

I'll settle for 10.
The Winged Vampire - [The_Winged_Vampire@hotmail.com]
It's morphin' time!
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 2:10:39 am EST from 216.37.154.241

9TH!!!
Matt - [Cape Girardeau, MIssouri, USA]
"The road to success is always under construction." Unknown
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 1:00:13 am EST from 150.201.114.132

^ - ^ eighth
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 12:42:36 am EST from 71.57.178.10

seventh
Obed - [angelgear2000@yahoo.com]
o.O
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 12:42:04 am EST from 71.57.178.10

7th! I wanted to comment last week, but the comment button wasn't there..0_o It's working now
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]
Pimpin' my DA gallery
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 12:41:42 am EST from 152.163.100.14

O.O!

**Pleasantly dragged**

XD
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 12:07:58 am EST from 24.126.11.109

6th!
Leo
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 12:07:55 am EST from 68.107.154.71

I guess I got #5.

I really enjoy using the back button on my browser to make multiple posts in this cr.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 12:04:39 am EST from 63.232.255.180

That's me who was 2nd, my computer froze right when I was about to post first so HoE, you were lucky
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"For me to poop on!" - Triumph the insult comic dog
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 12:04:16 am EST from 69.234.6.13

Guess not *slinks out to try again next week*







*Drags Kyt with her*
Chameleongirl - [<-- Come to the Gathering!]
Chameleon may change her spots, but she refuses to do plaid
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 12:03:17 am EST from 202.87.162.31

3rd!!
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 12:03:17 am EST from 63.232.255.180

*Runs in* Second? Did I get second??
Chameleongirl - [<-- Come to the Gathering!]
Chameleon may change her spots, but she refuses to do plaid
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 12:02:01 am EST from 202.87.162.31

Lucky number THREE!
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 12:01:56 am EST from 24.126.11.109

2nd
Anonymous
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 12:01:28 am EST from 69.234.6.13

1st?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Funk power! Over and out!" -The only band that really matters.
posted @ Mon, Mar 27, 2006 12:00:24 am EST from 69.174.3.196