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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending December 18, 2006

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My first comment. Anyway, on the toonzone forum I was posting a thread asking if Greg was approached to write an episode of Justice League Unlimited would he do so. While the show ended earlier this year, the comic is still going on, so do you think he would ever be interested in doing a few issues? Maybe a Batman or Captain Atom centric story?

Oh, and I really enjoyed his JLE/Gargoyles parody in JLA Showcase #1. It was worth the cover price for that story alone (though I still enjoyed the others).

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo,com]

Greg: I agree with your observations on the pantheon structure more than I do the 'big bad' definition, actually. I understood the term as wikipedia lists it:

""Big bad" is a term used in Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel to describe a major recurring adversary, usually the chief villain in a particular broadcast season. The term has been later used in other fandoms, such as Charmed and Smallville to denote the annual villain."

For Spider-Man, the Green Goblin is his most mythic and perhaps dangerous foe but Morlun or Ezekiel have been the "big bad" for stretches of a recent period, as Venom was in the 80s and other characters have been for other runs. Nina was the most dangerous recurring antagonist on '24' for the first few years, but Dennis Hopper or Salazar or whoever else were the 'big bads' -- the antagonists from whom the action of the particular season flowed.

At any rate, regarding the pantheon, I don't buy Thailog as high up as Demona, though he has it in his make-up to rise quite high. Currently he seems more in the ballpark of Macbeth or the Weird Sisters -- key secondary characters to a main villain.

Nonetheless, Demona is obviously the oldest, most dangerous and most personal gargoyle antagonist. Xanatos too is the longest-standing human antagonist, and may yet have some old-fashioned villainy up his sleeve for a rainy day. He's changed his priorities, but that doesn't mean he's going to get the halo out from the back of the shed yet.

Castaway and potentially Thailog obviously come next. Castaway is a human antagonist with the hatefulness of Demona. Thailog is a gargoyle antagonist with the Machiavellian instincts of Xanatos. Thailog's never going to be the chief gargoyle antagonist and Castaway can never be the main vengeance-led character. Unless there's a major death or restructuring, both reach a glass ceiling for that reason. They're always going to be viewed through the prism of their 'creators' (in one sense or another), Demona and Xanatos.

But then there's also the Illuminati and the court of Oberon (or perhaps Mab); what they lack in personal enmity toward the clan, they make up for in power and influence, including over Demona and Xanatos, and across pretty much all the spin-offs to boot. Hard to relegate them, although with the case of Oberon's children remains to be seen whether the Gathering will foster any unity of purpose in their ranks. In particular, we've only really seen the Weird Sisters as autonomous entities. But their presence is generally felt in most things.

So anyway, for the sake of fun, I've tried to chart the pantheon for what would have been "Season Three" based on what's been established and what we know from past years.

TOP TIER - The villains who act as the prism through which almost all the others are seen.
SECOND TIER - The primary movers and shakers in a particular corner of the Gargoyles universe, though not autonomous of the top tier villains.
THIRD TIER - Primary recurring antagonists
FOURTH TIER - Short-term antagonists, or those who have not yet emerged as recurring.


The Illuminati Society, Thailog, Castaway & the Quarrymen, the Court of Oberon

Fox/Cyberbiotics, Dracon, The Pack, Sevarius, Macbeth, Redemption Squad?, Puck, Coldsteel, The New Olympians/Proteus, Weird Sisters

Raven, Brod, Anansi, Taro, Yama, Banshee, Margot, Owen, Archmage


If anyone has any good tranfers of The Reckoning and Monsters as well as TGC's Generations, I could really use them for a music video. You can use the website like yousendit to upload them and email them to me. My email is sirengarg(at)yahoo(dot)com. Thanks!
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]

Mmmm I dont know if i would like to see Thailog as a "Big Bad", though i really like him, he would probably become a simple replacement for Xanatos active villanes.
I wouldnt like either to see Demona as one. In second season Demona`s appearances were less numerous than in season one, but have more impact. She would be great appearing now and then but always showing that she is the most lethal of all them all MUAHAHAHAHAHA
A new villan would be fitting. OR maybe Preteous @--@ Yeah all a new profile of villanes.

Demon@ - [dot dot dot and where is the donkey??]

Wow. I'm at my brother's house in Harrisonburg and he showd me this yesterday.


Falls apart at the ending, but still, he found it hysterical, what with pursuing a Masters in History and all.


Concerning Puck's transformations, was Elisa changed into a Manhattan gargoyle as well? I'd have to watch the episode again, but I always thought she looked the most "human" out of all the gargoyles (the Manhattan ones, I mean).

As far as "Big bads" are concerned, I think its amusing that we'll probably see a shift from Xanatos and Demona to Thailog and Demona, considering that mentally, Thailog is a clone of Xanatos. But we've also seen that Thailog is capable of things Xanatos is not. And also, didn't Greg say that aside from the fact that he's ceased open hostility against the gargoyles, little else about Xanatos has changed? That should be interesting.

Harvester of Eyes
"And he moves beneath the covers, or he lies below the bed. He is the beast upon your shoulder, and he's the price upon your head." -Ian Anderson

ED> And both Spider-Man and Batman despite their large rogues galleries have their Big Bads. Always have.

Batman has the Joker and Ra's al Ghul as his Big Bads. Along with other prominent villains, but those two are at the top of the pantheon.

Spider-Man has a triad of Big Bads with the Green Goblin, Dr. Octopus and Venom. But, he still has other prominent villains, but those are the Big Three.

I suspect that's what it will be with the Gargoyles also. Thailog and Demona I expect to be at the top of the villain pyramid, but we'll be seeing the others too.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin

Greg: When you've only got two villains, they're going to be 'big bads' pretty much by default. But we're 65 episodes down the road and the show developed a sizeable rogues gallery which it treated for the most part very even-handedly. Should S2V2 ever be released, its grand total of 23 stories will contain something like three villainous turns from Xanatos (including off-stage manipulations but excluding holograms and times they were foes), three from Demona, three from Sevarius, two for Oberon, Thailog, Macbeth, Puck etc. 'Gargoyles' has always seemed to me to have more in common with the rogues galleries of Batman or Spider-Man than the big-bad driven arcs of modern serialised television. Seeing Thailog in rotation with other aspects of the storyline is great (and perhaps getting more significant moments as the Weird Sisters and Oberon did at times, around big set-piece plots), but pushing Thailog to the prominence of S1 Xanatos or Demona would be like trying to push the genie back into the bottle. My hope (and expectation) is that the comic will be more the former than the latter.

Ed: I see what you're concerned about, but I'm sure there'll be plenty of other villains to go around. Thailog's just the one who'll be most prominent. In season one, Xanatos and Demona were the "big bads," but we still got The Pack, Dracon, Macbeth, and Coldstone as lesser villains. So don't worry- I don't think Greg plans on any major changes to his storytelling style.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- it's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender

ED> Gargoyles always had "Big Bads". Always. Since the beginning. It was Xanatos and Demona for nearly 65 episodes. So, Big Bads in the series is nothing new.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin

I have to say, I don't really like this business of 'big bads' and I hope 'Gargoyles' doesn't go down this route. I can see why some live-action television shows do it -- it's difficult to hold actors contractually over a longer period and so it's necessary to focus on one character more intensely for a particular arc. But 'Gargoyles' has such a rich and varied rogues gallery and while I like Thailog, I'm not sure I'd rate him above Dracon, Fang, Robyn, several of the children of Oberon (especially the Tricksters) or Sevarius; and certainly not above Castaway, Demona, the Weird Sisters or plenty of the 'greyer' characters who bounce between allies and antagonists -- Macbeth, Xanatos, Fox, Puck, Oberon...

I suppose it may make the comic more accessible to newcomers to focus on a smaller pool of villains for the time being, though.


****A section of the wall moves away and Blaise steps out.**** A quick entrance for a quick post.

MORE THOUGHTS ON ISSUE 2> Okay, here we go:
--LOVE the title page!
--Count me as another who likes the expression on Lex's face when he says "That means so much coming from you, Fox."
--I also liked the way the initial panel of that scene (a seemingly ferocious Bronx behind an oblivious Alex) looked like it played into Margot's statement before completely refuting it in the next panel (where Bronx licked Alex).
--Not wild about Bronx's blue tongue--I preferred it bright red. Also Alex looked a little weird while he was being licked...something about his mouth. But these are minor things.
--Castaway's Quarrymen/Hunter symbol has changed colors since the previous issue. There, the Q-men symbol was yellow with the red Hunter-slashes "behind" it. In this issue, the whole symbol was red (or at least looked that way).
--The "Quarrymen must remain anonymous" bit was good, and makes perfect sense. Can anyone tell me if that was part of Greg's original script as read at the Montreal Gathering?
--"I guess that makes up for any...uh, emotional trauma associated with that unfortunate pie-throwing incident from a few months back...". Haven't we all found ourselves saying that at one time or another during our lives? ;-)
--In the last panel of Goliath leaping off into the night with Elisa in his arms, Elisa is smiling, but Goliath...is not. At least he doesn't look like he is. Intentional?
--Overall, there seemed to be less shadows on the characters than in the first issue. Also, the art was a bit dark and I had a difficult time making out details (it was easier at night in a well lit room). Still, things look nice, for the most part.

And now we wait until (hopefully) February for the first NEW "Gargoyles" story in 10 years! A Halloween one, and featuring Demona, to boot. Personally, I'm eager to see, a few issues down the road, Thailog's return and rise to "Big Bad."
I'll try to stop by again before then, though. Until next time, farewell. ****Blaise turns to exit the way he entered, but the secret passage has closed off and he slams into the wall. After spouting a few muffled curses and rubbing his nose, Blaise turns toward the wall again and this time, literally, walks through the wall.****

"Well, it's nothing very special. Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."--Monty Python's Meaning of Life

Have fun on your trip, Matt. :)
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

My boyfriend and I are taking a short road trip to Nashville this weekend. While there, I'll look for clues for why it is Nashville's namesake. Have a good weekend everybody!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Cold does not bother us..." -Goliath "Reawakening"

VAEVICTIS - There are at least two possible explanations about that which I've seen discussed by Arthurian scholars.

The first is that the French words for "fisher" and "sinner" are very similar, and that the notion of the Fisher King being a sinner might be a form of word-play (the earliest extant stories about the Grail and the Fisher King were written in French).

And one of the leading features of the Fisher King is a wound which has in some way crippled him, and which is often portrayed as the result of some transgression of his (often lust, but in Malory, it is at one point stated that his wound came from attempting to take a sword that was specifically reserved for Sir Galahad alone).

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

JA! Havent thought of him. Macbeth´s and Goliath`s child at last!!
Demon@ - [dot dot dot and where is the donkey??]

I was looking at the Wiki and it mentions that the Fisher King is always a sinner, or something. I'm not familiar with Arthurian legend at all, what does sinning have to do with guarding the Holy Grail? Is it because making yourself immortal is considered a sin, or what?

Or is it something like "everybody is a sinner"

Vaevictis Asmadi

*mental image of a gargoyle in a jogging suit* Hmmmm....no...

Though I do wonder...would the jogger become a glider instead? ;)

Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]

Matt> "Yeah, he has simliar coloring, wings and brow horns as Goliath, but I was thinking he looked like a certain HUMAN character..."

I agree with you. LOL. If Goliath and Macbeth had a clone who wore fancy Armani, that would be it.

It kind of reminds my boyfriend of Kelsey Grammar's (sp?) character (Beast, for those of you who may not have seen it) in X3.

Are there any other shots like that, but with different characters? That would be interesting to see.

Has anyone else ever wondered what the recurring characters (Xanatos, Fox, Bluestone, Jogger Guy, The Pack, etc.) would've looked like as Gargoyles?

Too bad none of them showed up in that episode. :(

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.

Yeah, deffinetly Macbeth! LOL Good eyes Matt!
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]

Demon@> Yeah, he has simliar coloring, wings and brow horns as Goliath, but I was thinking he looked like a certain HUMAN character...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Cold does not bother us..." -Goliath "Reawakening"

Matt, hahaha Its another future sense of Puck. Goliath in 50 years.
Demon@ - [dot dot dot and where is the donkey??]

'we were betrayed by the humans(plural) we had sworn to protect'. Besides the obvious Captain, who else would he be taling about?"

Todd made a decent explanation, but really I think it's just that it'd be too complicated to explain the whole story in thirty seconds of narration. "We were betrayed by one of the humans we had sworn to protect, though he didn't really intend to betray us, but rather the humans who were mistreating us, since ironically he was the one human who treated us with decency." Basically, the intro is a quick summary, and people who want to know the whole story have to watch the episodes.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- it's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender

Speaking of Puck's transformations... Take a look at this screencap:


Does that look like a certain Gargoyles character to you? My only question, is why is he riding the Subway?

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Cold does not bother us..." -Goliath "Reawakening"

I'm going to order the comic today. I hope things will go through smoothly this time (When I ordered Gargoyles #1 through SLG I didn't get it, they sent it out again, but I had to wait until they had more in stock, so I ordered a copy through amazon and got that copy before I got the re sent copy so I have 2 copies of Gargoyles 1). Then recently I had order a graphic novel and that "disappeared" too (for some reason the company had sent the package via media mail). I had contacted the post office office and
gave them the tracking # and they said that the package was delivered but I never got it. The post master had said she'll look into it, but all these months later I never got a reponse. Either the post office is really sloppy or somebody is stealing my mail (I live in one of the worst neigborhoods in Brooklyn so I'm not surpised in a way). So for now on, I get my orders via priority mail or UPS because that way somebody has to sign for it.
The Mirror episode>I remember a scene when a mother Gargoyle was pulling her kid along who looked nothing like a scottish Gargoyle (She or the kid looked more like a pig or something)

kjay - [tigonesskay at yahoo dot com]
Patiently waiting....

Thank you Todd. I appreciate your response.
Merry Christmas!
Jesus Loves You All So Much!!!!!

Remy LeBeau
Remy LeBeau

MATT - Thanks. (Of course, I still also suspect that part of the reason why the transformed humans were all the same kind of gargoyle was to avoid confusing the audience, since the Avalon World Tour episodes that introduced different regional varieties of gargoyle hadn't aired yet. :) ).

REMY - Goliath might have been referring to the way in which Princess Katharine, the Magus, and the other humans were behaving in a prejudiced fashion towards the clan (which wasn't exactly betrayal in the same way as the Captain's act, but still wasn't much fun for the gargoyles at the receiving end of it).

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

sorry "talKing"!
Remy LeBeau
Remy LeBeau

Hey Guys. Here's a question I hope someone can answer. In the opening narrrative to the show Goliath says
"we were betrayed by the humans(plural) we had sworn to protect". Besides the obvious Captain, who else would he be taling about?

Remy LeBeau
Remy LeBeau

Todd> Greg once said that all the Manhattan humans were turned into Manhattan gargoyles, and since the only gargoyles in Manhattan had Scottish roots, the humans all turned out to be Scottish gargoyles. Basically, Puck wasn't turning the humans into Scottish or English or whatever gargoyles, Puck was changing them into Manhattan gargoyles.
Likewise, Puck did not turn the Manhattan Clan into native americans, he turned them into New York humans. Goliath was African-American, and the others were Caucasian-American.

So basically:

New York humans ---> Manhattan Gargoyles
Manhattan gargoyles ---> New York humans

There were no English or Mayan or Ishimuran gargoyles living in Manhattan at the time, so all the humans became Scottish gargoyles. And all the gargoyles became New York humans. I think that was the easiest and most logical thing for Puck to do. And Greg has said as much when I asked him about it:

Question received on Sun, June 17, 2001 01:06:05 PM
matt writes...
in "The Mirror" when Puck transformed the New York citizens into gargoyles why did he make them Scottish gargoyles?

Greg responds...
He didn't. He made them Manhattan gargoyles.

Response recorded on July 09, 2001

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Cold does not bother us..." -Goliath "Reawakening"

demon>Amazing what they get by the censors. LOL! All this Demona nudity, its too much.
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]

Got my comic today. Overall, I was pleased. Only thing I did not like was the coloring. It's still too dark! That makes it a little hard to follow the action, especially in the fight. Can't wait for the next issue.

New York gargs> I'd imagine that for many, they would probably resemble whatever their native indigenous gargoyles were/are. It would vary on how recent they arrived and how much mixing there has been over the generations (ie, a recent immigrant would look more like his/her respective indigenous gargoyle, where some multi-generational residents may have a mix). Not sure if I wrote that well.


For "gone instinct", read "gone extinct". Sorry about that.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

MATT - Well, the situation is this. When I'm handling already-asked-and-answered questions for Greg, I can only answer them using actual quotes of his. I can't just use the information that he's given in my own words. Which makes answering them sometimes difficult unless it's something simple, such as "When is the next DVD going to come out?"

Here's an oddball little question that I just thought of. In "The Mirror", when Puck turns all the humans in New York into gargoyles, they all look like basically the same variety of gargoyle that Goliath and his clan are (batlike wings, prominent pointy ears, clawed hands and feet, etc.). Presumably this could be interpreted as the kind of gargoyles that Manhattan might have if it had an indigenous clan (Goliath's clan doesn't count; they're Scottish immigrants). But today, I remembered that a very major city like New York is going to have a lot of visitors from not only other parts of the U.S., but even other countries, some visiting it as tourists, others for business reasons.

Now we know that the gargoyles in other lands often have different features from the Scottish gargs - English gargoyles look like heraldic animals with feathered wings, and the Mayan clan has Zafiro, who looks like a Quetzalcoatl-style feathered serpent. So that raises the question: when Puck turned all the humans in Manhattan into gargoyles, what sort of gargoyles would visitors from other countries whose native gargoyles were (or used to be, if they'd gone instinct) different in "core features" from the bat-winged variety of gargoyle? As in, if there were people visiting Manhattan from England during this time, would they have been turned into the same kind of gargoyles that Elisa and the other New Yorkers became, or would they have become the "lion/unicorn/griffon" variety of gargoyle that Leo, Una, and Griff are?

(Of course, it's not so surprising that the transformed New Yorkers all looked like "Scottish-style gargoyles" - the series hadn't hinted yet that there were other forms of gargoyle out there, and it would have been far too confusing to the audience if we'd seen what looked like winged lions and unicorns strolling about in the crowd scenes.)

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

I was able to get a copy of #2 today. I talked to the main comics store in my city, and they said 10 of their 12 locations still had some in stock; the others had sold out. The store nearest me had 3 in stock when I arrived. So at least it's readily available and selling around here.

I don't have too much to add to the reviews already written. It does look like Goliath has lightning coming out of his eyes sometimes (as Leo mentioned), but for the most part I thought the colors and characters were a little better than in #1.

I liked how Vinnie helped save Goliath and Elisa, and how he says it "makes up" for his pie gun in "Vendettas."

I liked the juxtaposition between Yale's objections about gargoyles (they want our children, they can't have human emotions, etc) with the shots showing the gargoyles doing the exact opposite (though Bronx looks a bit vicious when he first appears behind Alex - then we find out he's just going to give him a big "slurp.")

"Forty-two! Is that all you've got to show for seven and a half million years' work?"

Just wrote my review/praise for Issue II -- But I was kinda hesitant of doing so, knowing that I'm adding to the "almost bottomed" bottom-less pit that is Ask Greg!
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]

I suspect I won't get a copy of #2 before the window closes, but I can save it until the window opens for #3. Keep up the good work, Greg.

(And thanks for that nugget of information regarding your timeline. 9386 BCE. That's a vintage Ask Greg information tease. I love it!)


DPH> Actually, I meant the Spring Equinox. Gargoyle eggs hatch on or near then. For instance, in Gargoyles: 2198, the gargoyle and human leaders will be gathering to attend the hatching of the eggs on March 21st, 2198. In any case, my mistake, thanks for the heads up.

Thanks for stopping by Greg!

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Cold does not bother us..." -Goliath "Reawakening"

Gorebash, Todd and myself have opened ASK GREG up for questions and responses for a BRIEF window: from now until the end of 2006. This is mostly being done to give people the opportunity to comment on or ask questions about issue #2 of the Gargoyles comic (available at comic book stores NOW). Other questions and comments will be accepted, of course, but I ask you all to be circumspect. I'm finally catching up. I hope to only be one year behind by the end of 2006. And I'd eventually like to get things where I'm no more than a week behind.

If the queue gets flooded now, it'll make it VERY hard to keep up. This is the honor system folks. Please police one's self.


Greg Weisman
Trying to get out more than two comics annually since 1974...

Matt - <Couldn't you just say that Brooklyn was hatched on or near the Spring Solstice in 958 AD? That's not an exact month and day, but it is accurate and near enough.> You mean Summer Solstice (Repeat after me: Fall Equinox, Winter Solstice, Spring Equinox, Summer Solstice), but that's what I was thinking. That amounts to either June 20 or 21. If the person is unhappy with the answer of Summer Solstice, let them visit the cr.
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

I'm surprised nobody has commented on the lightning bolts shooting out of Goliath's eyes on a few of the frames.

Harvester of Eyes>which makes it more interesting that hudson is the only gargoyle that wears pants or tights or whatever thoughs are. Unless disney just didnt want to show old man junk hanging down there. :P

Todd> Couldn't you just say that Brooklyn was hatched on or near the Spring Solstice in 958 AD? That's not an exact month and day, but it is accurate and near enough.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Cold does not bother us..." -Goliath "Reawakening"

DPH - Well, the year's been answered but the month and the day haven't (that's the problem with some of these questions; they're half-old, half-new).

HARVESTER - I've thought the same thing about Castaway and Vinnie myself. Maybe, way deep down inside, Castaway's still affected by the fact that he was only a lukewarm supporter of the gargoyles back when he did support them.

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Oh, why's everyone so shocked? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Greg say at one point that gargoyles don't wear underwear?

Anyway, we'd better make sure that the fundamentalists never find that website. ( ;

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Did I kill you? Good! That means I got your attention!" -David Cross ("Mr. Show With Bob and David")

Jurgan - <Less than 300 questions in Ask Greg! Woohoo!> It gets better than that. Only 23 questions from 2005 left. I'm hoping the submit button for Ask Greg remains disabled for a while longer. I wouldn't mind it staying open for the month of January just to allow people to slip in reviews of issue #2, but that's about it.

Todd - Can you skip ahead to quote the answer for this question:
Haley writes...

What day,year,month was Brooklyn born.

I'm fairly sure the answer to that question is in the archives.

Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Vaevictis Asmadi: hey i checked on Lex`s back part and you are right :P
Siren; hehehehe Also check these one http://www.demona-obsession.org/pictures/highnoon/hn108.jpg

Demon@ - [dot dot dot and where is the donkey??]

****Blaise swoops into the Comment Room on his wyvern.**** Hi all! Just a quick "fly-by" about the comic.

ISSUE 2> I picked up my copy this morning (had a bit of trouble, though, since the comic shop changed locations on me...amazing what happens in five months time, isn't it?). The clerk mentioned that delays (even 5-6 month ones) do happen in the comic industry--even to the "big boys."
I'll probably give a more detailed run-down this weekend, but a few thoughts:
--Margot in pink...well, it's certainly different.
--Since we don't have the voice actors for a comic, we have to mentally supply the voices in our own heads, and for the most part this is easy, but my mind kept wanting to hear Tress Macnellie and Alan Cumming (the actor's who were in the TV episode) instead of Marina Sirtis and Scott Cleverdon (the *intended* actors) for Margot Yale and John Castaway, respectively.
--I actually found myself preferring the "staging" of some of the scenes in the comic to the television show. The library scene, for example, plays better to me the way it's staged in the comic.
--I liked the way Castaway's line "In war, no one suffers more than the traitor" has Vinnie's "It's just not right..." interjected between the last two words so that "traitor" becomes both the end of the sentence, and an accusation.

That's all I have until the weekend, like I said, but now that the "old news" is out of the way, I can't wait for the new stuff to begin (although, I personally do NOT think it's going to be the "double date" story yet). Until the weekend, farewell. ****Blaise sends his Wyvern out through the window...but a little too high. After being slammed into the top of the windowsill, falling off, and getting up to dust himself off, Blaise looks off at his now-distant Wyvern, sighs, and flies out the window himself.****

"Well, it's nothing very special. Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."--Monty Python's Meaning of Life

Battle Beast, I'm in Edmonton as well and haven't been to the other local stores yet, but I'd be amazed if I see that many, 22 copies of Garagoyles #2 between them. The one place I get my comics, I had to make it one of my titles to guarantee that I get the series. He didn't have any on shelf, just my copy. Back like 2 moonths ago, I asked about Garg #2 and he was then palcing his orders through Diamond and told me he put in my copy of issue #3. That to me suggested I was the only one getting the book at his store. Just not a good sign. But if you did see that many of #2 maybe theres hope. And I really hope that Greg is correct as he stated in #2's letters/editorial, that the book will be bi-monthly. I can tolerate that schedule as I get Mirage's TMNT book at that pace. The EIC of SLG thought it may be a quarterly schedule when I emailed her awhile ago. I've not read issue 2 but am sort of glad Greg went this route of rehashing the Journey episodes (if I'm right from other peoples postings) since I've never seen the Gargoyles series into the 3rd year at all. Pretty much where the season 2 dvd set vol.1 went up to is pretty much what I've seen of the series back then on tv. Can't wait for these new stories.

Siren -- What the hey?

Well, now we can be absolutely certain she isn't a transvestite. At last, my fears are laid to rest. :p

Vaevictis Asmadi

I'm not sure if this was mentioned before at any point, but did anyone ever seen the screenshot of City of Stone where you get a clear shot of under Demona's loincloth? WTF? And they said Jessica Rabbit was revealing!


Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]

Just got Clan Building II today . . . and all I can say is YAY!!!!

Got to the shop the moment the store opened. I found Issue II right in the new releases section, and I cried aloud how much I've waited for this issue, in which I hear one of the workers say, "yeah, especially since it's been forever since the first came out."

So he knows his merchandise -- Gotta love that. After the purchase, I made it clear to him that I couldn't wait for Issue III and I wondered if he knew when the next one was scheduled. He said he didn't, but that he'd keep an eye out for it (An actual legit comment, since I've seen this guy at the shop for a good year & half - He'd recognize me . . .)

Anyways, I loved this part of The Journey . . . we finally get to see a couple of other characters in comic book form, mostly Macbeth (LOVED that line, regardless of its apparent unfactualness. Yeah, that's probably not a word . . . )

Loved Xanatos being a jerk to the Illuminati -- he wouldn't do it any other way!

Also great to see Owen, stone fist and all, in the series again . . . can't wait to see Puck again (should Alex get the chance for another "lesson").

I also loved Hudson subtle role of "turning on the comic" and "turning it off." Just a fun thing to notice.

Onward to Clan Building III!!

Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]

There isn't a comic book store in town. I am heading to Daytona on Saturday or Sunday and will stop at the local Cloak and Dagger for a copy :D
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]

The line "No names, Quarrymen must be anonymous," is kind of interesting in the sense that, underneath Castaway's mask is another mask.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin

Something I've mentioned in here before, but that the talk about the new comic has reminded me of: I imagine that, on a subconscious level, Castaway is probably not too thrilled with the fact that Vinnie possesses both the ability to see when something isn't right and the strength to act upon his conviction.

Which is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to the next meeting between Jon and Jason, since Jon's brother has that same strength of character.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Did I kill you? Good! That means I got your attention!" -David Cross ("Mr. Show With Bob and David")

Bought Gargoyles #2 today, and I'm glad that the wait is over. Let's hope that we never have to wait extra-long for the next issue again.

While a lot of it was familiar material from "The Journey", there were a few new bits in it. What particularly stood out to me was:

1. Macbeth now actually described as having written a book, "Gargoyles in Celtic Legend" (and based on what we've seen in the series so far, he should have a lot to cover in it - not just his own experiences during his time as king, but also gargoyle links to Cuchulain and King Arthur as well).

2. Margot is not only the Assistant D.A., but also "advisor to the NYPD Gargoyle Task Force". This is going to make things all the more interesting; I'm certain that we're going to be seeing tension between her and Matt over how to handle the Task Force (and I'm feeling sorry for Matt as well).

3. I like Castaway's shout to Vinnie "No names! We must be anonymous!" It makes sense to me, too; as I've mentioned before, given that the Quarrymen are vigilantes (and no matter what the police think of the gargoyles, I doubt that too many of them are going to approve of the whole running about smashing everything gargoyle-ish in sight with hammers and flying a military helicopter over downtown New York with guns blazing), I doubt that they want their everyday identities made public any more than Batman wants people in Gotham City to know that he's really Bruce Wayne.

One little side-note, though: contrary to what Macbeth says to Margot at the end, they didn't have that many witch-burnings during the Middle Ages. They were largely a phenomenon of the early modern world (16th and 17th centuries).

And again, let's hope that they bring #3 out on time. I only hope that the long delay hasn't doomed the comic.

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Yes, the fleshy parts of Coldstone are reanimated stone that used to be Garg flesh. Good point about his hair, though. Must've been an oversight.

Or maybe his stone hair could not be found, and they installed a wig. ;)

Vaevictis Asmadi

Just to corroborate Vaevictis Asmadi's comments on Lex's wings... Think of them as arms without fingers, or a with single finger/claw at the end. This is also substantiated by one of the pitch reels that Greg shows at the Gathering, where we see that Lex actually DID have four arms in an early design drawing.

Gargoyle wings ARE, essentially, a second set of arms, much like a bat's wings are modified arms and hands. If you look closely, Lex's wing's are still articulated much like arms; his wing-arms still have a "shoulder" (where they meet his back), "elbows" and a "wrist". So it helps to consider that the humanoid variety of gargates typically have four arms, with one set specifically adapted to gliding.

Unrelated to the above, but I have no comments yet on Issue 2, as I won't be able to get to my local shop until tomorrow afternoon.

Kythera of Anevern
I do not suffer fools, gladly or otherwise.

Just stopping in quickly to comment RE: the comic.

I do not have an issue of #2 because it sold out at my local store. The sales rep said they had ordered as many copies as #1 and they sold out just about as quickly. Another batch was due in next week.


Alex Garg
This mailbox is unattended because I'm too lazy

I can't wait for number three, either.

I was going through the archives, and in a ramble Greg said this, "...that's me making sure people are clear that Coldstone is RE-ANIMATED STONE, not flesh. I don't think it's visually clear. " Which means that Coldstone's flesh-portions are the stone material? Am I straight on that? 'Cos I never realised that. And if it's just 'stone', then, shouldn't his hair not move or be white? I'm confused. Can anyone help me out?

Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

Comic> Picked my copy of issue #2 up. Thought I'd leave my 2 cents. It's more of a art review then anything else, mainly b/c I'm feeling too lazy to write out a lengthy review.

The artwork was good, much better then #1's was. I loved Xanatos' design style, Fox was... interesting. LOVED the expression of Lex's face when he's speaking to Fox (Alex grabbing his nose and ear was a nice artistic touch, IMO.) and kudos to Hedgecock for the design styles of Goliath and Elisa.

Yeah, the library was a little dim, but that didn't bother me. I really sympathized with Brooklyn here, but he'll go through time and get a mate someday... The way he was drawn here was alright, but not too special. He could've looked better, but I'm sure he will over time.

The story was great, for being a comic adaptation of a 10 year old episode. Can't wait for #3, though. THAT'S when it's gonna get really good, I'm betting, with the new stuff and everything.

February 2007 just could not get here fast enough.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.

Less than 300 questions in Ask Greg! Woohoo!
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

I disagree Demon@, Lex does not have rib-wings, he just has wings without fingers. They clearly come from his shoulders if you look at a back shot of him. Ribs are not the only thing that could become those bones. Anyway, if Gargate ribs became wings then Gargoyles simply do not have any ribs at all anymore (like Draco lizards), leaving their chest totally unprotected. And my impression is that Gargoyles are hardier than that and that their chests are not so fragile. Does anyone remember a time when a Gargoyle was hit in the chest and how they reacted? Or a scene where you could see a Garg's ribs?
Vaevictis Asmadi

guess I'll do my review...

wen't to Zanadu comics yesterday and picked mine up. the salesperson said that there was a lot of people waiting for the second issue.. nice to know there are Garg fans in the area, he also said a few were about to give up on the comic if it hadn't come in this month. I guess time will tell on the comic. I'm hoping it'll be out Febraury. better to delay with old material than brand new, I think.

Macbeth wrote a book about Gargoyles huh? too bad I wasn't at there at the premiere and signing of the books.:p

love Margot's outfit, she can match that jogger now. ;)

adviser to Gargs Task force? hoo boy, Matt's going to have more heat from her than Brendan,

Ouch! when the laser hit burned not only a hole in his wing but some blood on the side of his face . doubt S&P would allow that now.

yeah, I like Elisa's dress in the comic too. though I wonder how it would've looked in aquamarine. I also wish they'd get Hudson's color right. oh well.

Matt- I'll have to watch the Green again. that injury escapes me somehow.

if any of you remember She-ra Princess of Power on the DVD's they tell of how the animators had to be constantly reminded not to let She-ra's skirt fly up. good thing Hedgecock thought of that here.

I miss the Garg-bear too. and Alex looks scary, nice drool Bronx.;)

Don't llike Fox in her first her lips and ears are off. but Alex playing with Lex is adorable. like to see how Lex bonds with Alex while being cautious with Fox. I can see him being a good rookery father around Tachi too.

Owen and Xanatos laying pipework with the Illuminati plot there. Percival not too happy with X at the moement.

I coulda sworn Xanatos had more of a tan. *shrugs*

more of the damage to Goliath on the next page . I wonder if his injuries are tempororary or permanent might even scar.

I love how Elisa treats her clothes. I still wonder if she ever got back the lower half of her dress from Eye of the Beholder. here she loses a shoe, rips her dress. and shamelessley throws her other shoe down to the streets below. would've been funny if one of the incidental characters got konked with it :lol:. I hope her dress wasn't borrowed or a rental.

yeah, the library is a tad dark.. maybe gargoyles can read better in dim light than humans...

I like the new color of Angela's lips..goes with her coloring..

One Day Brook... One day..

now that the public know Gargs exist. I wonder if anyone's going to compain of the claw marks on the buildings ..

aww,Elisa then it would be no fun to stay behind.;)

also notice. Elisa goes back to her TGC Journey dress here.cept it's white. meh,

anybody else reminded of King Kong?

Castaway's red coloring on his uniform is a chilling touch.
it looks like white lightning bolts are shooting out of Goliath's eyes sometimes..

ahh the power of feet.

the threatning Castaway and the reluctant Vinnie's hood eyes look so cool here.

Castaway,hypocrite to a T

Goliath looks extra scary when he's getting his 2nd wind.

I'm sure Elisa's gonna ask about that pie incident ;).

I thought I read somewhere that Greg was going to take Elisa's "Gargs in Japan" line out in the comic guess not.

like last scene of Goliath and Elisa leaping off at the building.vs gliding as in TGC..

can't wait for Macbeth vs Margo Deathmatch II ;)


Vaevictis Asmadi: Thks :). Yes, but there are gargoyles like Lexington who indeed have wings that have rib bones. Maybe that was the first model of true gargoyle, and then, as they envolve and change habitats the wings changed as well. Perhaps with time the ribs started to get higher in their bodies and the membrane got separated from the arms to allow them more freedom on their movement. Finally they were put up on their backs and eventually grew up to be like another pair of limbs. Great point that of their external ears, havent thought of that before!.
Matt: The different kind of gargoyles that we have, though, would encourage the theory of a lot of habitats in wich gargoyles originaly envolve, i think. Perhaps they envolve in woods and mountains.

Demon@ - [dot dot dot and where is the donkey??]

About Vinnie - So far he has run into Gargoyles multiple times at random, I don't see why his luck should change when he goes to Japan!

Matt and Demon@ - great ideas! I will say that because they have both hair and milk, I cannot see Gargoyles as being Sauropsids, I see them as at least Synapsids, if not Therapsids or even Monotremes.

The gliding reptiles you refer to, Demon@, are Sauropsids related to lizards. But the Kuehneosaurs and the modern Draco lizards evolved independently, and if gliding fins can evolve twice, they can evolve three times. Also, considering that the fins on the flying lizards are ribs, leaving the chest and heart unprotected, does not fit with Gargoyles which seem to have ribcages and protected chests like most vertebrates. So I would say that their wings evolved from a different bone, not from the ribs.
I will also say that the external ears of Gargoyles, suggest that like mammals they have internal middle ears. Although that could possibly have evolved independently, it points strongly toward a Synapsid ancestry and not a Sauropsid ancestry.

Vaevictis Asmadi

I hope the Delilah double date is in the next issue. :) I'm very fond of the clones. Though, I cannot imagine Jason Canmore being Elisa's date. Shouldn't he still be in the hospital?
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

Demon@> I think the preferred habitats of gargoyles are mountains and caves, though clearly some clans have moved beyond that (London Clan, Mayan Clan). I think this was also a response to the heat of the lowe altitudes. So perhaps the heat drove them up the mountains and the mountainous habitat helped push the evolution of gliding wings. Just another thought.

Taro> I did another search for Taro in Ask Greg and found nothing like Todd said about Greg making that kind of statement. I also only got ten results and I also only so one question concerning the matter in which Greg neither confirmed or denied anything. If it was said in Ask Greg, why are searches not revealing it?

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Cold does not bother us..." -Goliath "Reawakening"

Matt> Great review there, dude. :)

I'm even more psyched then ever for #2 now.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.

Still waiting for my copies to come in from mycomicshop.com. I suppose for #3, I should see if SLG has updated the list of distributors in the Fredericksburg area. I drove up to the Aquia Town Center one weekend in June to find an abandoned hole in the wall.

Though for now, I will say that Matt's comments about continuity have gotten me wondering if Demona will be drawn without an armband in #3.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Right now, his reflexes are better than Dale Earnhardt Jr's!" -Gregory House, MD.

Greg indicated in an earlier response at "Ask Greg" that Taro was the guy in Japan who gave Vinnie the job. When somebody asked him if Taro would ever return, Greg said (I'm quoting from memory) "Who do you think the guy in Japan was who hired Vinnie?" And it does make sense, when you stop to think over it - who indeed would be the most likely guy in Japan to hire a New Yorker who had openly announced on the news that he'd "defeated" a gargoyle (though leaving out the fact that the weapon that he'd used against it was a pie)?

I'm planning on buying my copy of #2 today, and am looking forward to reading it (and comparing it to the script for "The Journey" that Patrick Toman put up at the TGS site some years back, just as I did with #1).

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Samuel: gee thanks. I worked hard on it ;P
Matt: That was awesome. About the apes thing, i agree that all animals have advantages and disadvantages towards other animals but: what ape is in the cage and wich one is laughing outside the bars?. I was just refering about us as "superior" for our intelligence, that is superior compare with that of other animals. Though that doesnt make us better or with more rights i guess.
But the warm-blooded characteristic is not something that gargoyles would share only with mammals, as you said, birds have warm blood and so did the "false mammals" that, after all, were reptiles. There are even sharks that have that feature. The gargoyles have other things that would put them closer to mammanls: they produce milk and have hair. And if we could study their skeleton structure we could probably compare their skulls with those of apes. And gargoyle beast´s bodies are similar to on of mammal predators.
But again they also share qualities with other vertebrates: there are gargoyles with feathers,beaks, they have some reptil structure and have six limbs like insects and they lay eggs. I agree now that they are not mammals. All a new class would be apropiate. So far we agree-
About the wings and the stone-like hibernation i have another theory that has some sense.
Sevarius also said that the reason why gargoyles would need so much energy was for use of the muscles of their wings and the power they need to use them. And a creature of the size and weight of a gargoyle would need the most complex structure to be in the air. If their wings would be a simple extention of another adaptation system their glide would be more limited and heavy, probably not as evolve. Maybe it was all the way around, first they had wings and then the development of absorvation of termal energy and the shell of stone-like substance only helped to improved their gliding abilities.
Maybe gargoyles didnt evolve from the Synapsids but along with them in the same period from the first gliding reptiles.
Like all animals adapted to fly or to glide they were probably small things back then and they lived in the woods and jungles to protect themselves among the trees from the giant dinosaurs . There they could have addapted to glide from tree to tree. Like the archeoreptix they maybe migrated later on from one place to the other, leaving the safety of the forest and gliding back and forth in search of new places to mate and feed. As they were predators they couldnt sacrified their strength like birds and thats maybe why they coudnt envolve into flying animals.
A lot of animals adopted nocturnal habits during the dinosaurs period to survive to the great disadvantages that the huge size of the reptiles impose them.
Though once the dinosaurs were gone, mammals and gargoyles took control and they grew up in strengh and size.
In responce to the climatic and habitats changes maybe gargoyles developed a shell to protect their nocturnal skin from the sun and heat creating the stone-like substance. Some insects do something similar: they are froze during the rough desertic nights and then the sun melt the ice and the cricket just comes back to life.
They started to abrsorve the heat of the sun and that improves their gliding capability, they would be able to be on the skye for longer periods of time and glide larger distances.
Greg also said that garg beast had some vestigie of wings on their skeletical structure and that probably is because they once had, as snakes have vestiges of feets on their skeleton for they have envolve from lizards.
A lot of habitats disappear. Some gargoyles, in some areas, with no more trees availables to take flight or to use to hunt or hide and surrounded for bigger predatores and preys, sacrified their wings and developed in change harder bones and stronger musucles. The wings disappeared and the beast born.
Well there is another theory a little more vague,i guess. But well...there is always the alien thing in wich we discovered that male gargoyles come from mart and females from venus

Demon@ - [dot dot dot and where is the donkey??]

Matt: your question intrigued me so I did a search. Of the 10 results, in a search for "Taro", this one was interesting;

Sapphire writes...

In the episode the journey Vinnie saved Goliath and Elisa from being killed by Jon Castaway and was given a job in Japan by an unknown man most likely being Taro . My Question is since Vinnie made peace with Goliath would Vinnie cause problems for Taro in his evil plans for the Ishimera clan?

Greg responds...

Vinnie tends to cause problems everywhere he goes. Mostly for Vinnie.

Greg W doesn't dispute it, he doesn't confirm it either. But his laid back response suggests to me that he may have revealed this information somewhere else, like a Gathering or something.

Issue #2: I haven't got mine yet, should be here soon so I haven't read reviews yet. I don't want to spoil any of the new stuff (even if its not much).


Yay!!! After getting an order cancelation notice from Amazon (GRRRR!!!), I managed to track down a local comic shop that carries the Gargoyles comic, and landed a copy!!! Success!!!

I have to wag my finger a little at Amazon and SLG though. :P

Laurana - [phoenixflame_1 at yahoo dot com]

Thanks Greg B and Pgoldfish.

Does anyone have any info on the whole Vinnie-Japan-meeting gargoyles thing. GargWiki say Taro hired him, but there is no indication of that in the comics or "The Journey". Did Greg W say that in Ask Greg at some point? I don't remember that.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Cold does not bother us..." -Goliath "Reawakening"

dph- yeah I can't believe slg hasn't updated by now...

scott iskow-thanks for the head's up on that website! I was able to order the comic through them. It will probably take at least a week to get to me, but at least I know it's on its way.

I don't even see the comic advertised on amazon-anyone have a link to it?

Matt-awesome review-I'm looking so forward to reading it.

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)

MATT> Greg has said in interviews that Demona appears in issue 3.

We also know issue 3 takes place on Halloween, so it's likely going to be the beginning of the "Double Date" story. So, Delilah will probably show up, and either Jason or Morgan. I wonder which of the two Greg chose.

Good review, I enjoyed reading it.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin

My thoughts on the comic> First off, I wanted to say that the moment I saw the "Gargoyles in Celtic Legend" reference, I thought to myself, "Time to update the GargWiki entry" only to discover that Greg B had beaten me to the punch. And btw, Greg B, what makes you so sure Demona is showing up in the next issue? Something I've forgotten? Anyway, that's pretty cool. Her first canon appearance in ten years.

The first place I went to had no copies so I ordered one, but not willing to wait, I dragged my boyfriend to another store that had several and bought one there. I want to end up with at least a couple copies, so that's not a big deal. All the comic book guys seemed to know exactly what I was talking about, even if they didn't get any in, so I guess that's something. Let's hope that this issue sells as well as the first.

Anyway, without further ado...

My Thoughts On Issue 2 (Clan-Building Chapter Two: The Journey):

- First off, the cover looks great. I really like Elisa's dress as opposed to the one seen in "The Journey" TGC episode and Goliath's battle damage looks a bit more serious too. And speaking of Goliath, he looks pretty buff here, I mean, he's huge! Anyway, looks great.

- I love the extra tidbit of information on "Lennox Macduff" authoring "Gargoyles of Celtic Legend". Sounds like a book I'd love to read. I wonder is it a book about gargoyles or about real-life Gargoyles? Hard to tell. And we learn something new about Margot Yale, she is an advisor to the NYPD Gargoyle Task Force as well as being the assistant DA. it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. Her relationship with Matt Bluestone and her connections to the gargoyles just became much more interesting.

- As I mentioned before, Goliath really takes a rough injury to his wing. I mean it looks really bad, so bad that I almost doubt him when he says it'll heal when he turns to stone. Obsidiana had a similar injury in "The Green" and it healed, of course her wing only looked broken, Goliath had big old holes in his wing as well as it looking broken. I suppose it is similar to the wound he took over London after being hit by a Nazi bullet, though it certainly looks worse here. I dunno, just some thoughts.

- The title page with the injured Goliath and Elisa is really nice. I have to say it seems to be pseudo-sexual in a way. I really like it, it is kinda beautiful. A nice touch is the Eyrie building's reflection in the puddle and the flesh wound on Goliath's cheek.

- The Alex/Bronx/Lex/Fox scene (lot of x's there) is nice. Bright and colorful, a contrast to the rest of the book. Sadly, Alex's teddy bear no longer has gargoyle wings, and Alex no longer seems to have red hair, but is blond now. Another interesting color situation is Bronx's tongue, which is now blue, as opposed to the red tongue seem in the tv episodes. I don't think it is good or bad, just different. I love Lex's face when he is talking to Fox (and Alex is grabbing his ear). It's one of those priceless faces, right there with Hudson's face when he looks at Goliath holding Elisa in "Awakening"

- I like how the artist was consistent enough in showing how Elisa lost one of her shoes in Issue 1 and pulls the other one off in this issue (because who would run around in just one shoe?). I think it is the tidbits of continuity and realism like that that have always been one of Gargoyles' strengths.

- The Library where Angela and Broadway are hanging out seems pretty dark to be reading in. Which leads me to my only complaint about the book. It seems to be very darkly colored. Almost too dark to clearly see what is going on sometimes. I understand this is happening at night and in dark places, and I realize it is oftentimes a dark series, but still, there are times when I have to put certain pages under a bright light to see whats going on. Done with the criticism.

- Back to Broadway and Angela. Yes, we all know they are gonna get together and have three kids and stuff, but I really love watching them develop over time. Angela's lips are kinda a dark purple, which is a lot like Bronx's colored tongue. Just another observation. It actually makes some anatomical sense, so it will certainly grow on me. New now though. Poor Brooklyn, I guess he'll find someone soon enough though, but still, he doesn't know what his future holds, so for now, poor Brook.

- Probably the best single frame in the book (and kudos to Greg W, the artists, everyone) is the frame where Elisa says to Goliath, "I know, I know. Sometimes it's easier if I just stay behind." Goliath's little grin is priceless, I love it. The line itself is perfect, I mean Goliath has to carry her around everywhere, he loves her, but geez, that has to be frustrating for both of them at times.

- The old stomping grounds. It certainly has seen better days, as Elisa point out. My hope is that it is rebuilt and has a future in the series.

- I like seeing Elisa on Goliath's back with her little bare feet sticking forward. It's cute.

- I've always liked the fight in the Clocktower. It's like once Elisa and Goliath are on familiar turf, they have the advantage. I must wonder what is in store for Banquo and Fleance. Will Castaway fire them or just withhold their paychecks? Or maybe they'll quit.

- I think it is interesting that Castaway tells Vinnie to not use names, as Quarrymen must remain anonymous (one has to wonder his reasons for that!) and then he turns around and calls Vinnie by name. Kind of a hypocrite. Anyway, Vinnie vs. Castaway, what an unlikely duel that is. But it works. Castaway gets away in the end, so I'm sure we'll see him around. And Vinnie? I wonder if we'll see him again... probably, knowing this series. I wonder though, Goliath and Elisa seem pretty sure that Vinnie will encounter the Ishimura Clan, but unless he is going to Ishimura itself, I don't see why this is likely. Ishimura keeps the gargoyles a pretty tight secret, and Greg W has indicated that they are not gonna reveal themselves to the world for some time. So is Vinnie going to Ishimura? And who there hired him? Taro?

- One more thing: I find it hilarious to see Greg W talking about catching up in Ask Greg in the "Etched in Stone" back page. Now Greg's attempts to catch up are being published! Makes me laugh. We love ya, Greg. Kinda weird to see something we have talked about so much online in a hard copy in my hands. "It's weird... kinda fun... but weird..."

- So overall, I enjoyed it very much. The writing is great, of course. I'm still a fan of the art, though the darkness of this issue was a little annoying. All in all though, I love it and can't wait for Issue 3. So far in "Clan-Building" we've seen the formation of the Quarrymen "clan" and the reintroduction of the Manhattan Clan. How else will clans be built in the future...? I guess we'll see.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Cold does not bother us..." -Goliath "Reawakening"

Well, blow me down, 30 questions left from 2005 in Ask Greg.

It's a shame that you can't order that comic off of SLG. I hope the comment I left there help fixes that problem.

Scott Iskow - One problem with that website - they don't like my bank's visa card.

Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Demon@> The "false mammals" you are refering to are also called the Synapsids. The Synapsids are what I think the Gargates evolved from as well. I think they are the most likely, rational, and logical ancestors. Perhaps I'll post my thoughts on Gargate evolution here again. And btw, there is nothing to suggest that humans are some sort of superior ape, we are apes like the other apes. We each have our advantages and disadvanteges.

"I have a hard time thinking of the Gargates as a Mammalian group. Just because they are warm-blooded does not mean they are mammals, birds are warm blooded and most likely some dinosaurs were too. The mammal-like reptiles, or Synapsids, were in transition between cold and warm blooded and evolved some fascinating organ structures to deal with temperature regulation. Some developed a faster and more efficient metabolism, these led to the mammals. Some others, however, developed large sails on their backs that they could use to warm or cool their blood and thus help regulate body temperature.

I theorize that both the wings of gargoyles and the stone sleep evolved from these structures. In the Permian period, the Earth's climate had a major swing from a cool world with huge glaciers to a steamy, hot, suffocating world. This, in part, led to the greatest mass extinction in the history of life on Earth where 95% of all species died out. For the record, volcanoes, meteors, ocean currents and continental arrangement all played a part in the extinction as well. Pretty much everything went wrong all at once, and life suffered.

Some organisms, however, evolved and adapted and managed to survive. I think the earliest Gargates were some of these organisms. I surmise that the organisms changed their behavior and body plans to deal with the harsh climate. First, they became nocturnal, limiting all body movement during the excessively hot Permian days. Over time they saved energy by entering a brief hibernation-like trance during each day. For further protection from the sun and the elements and perhaps predators, they evolved a skin reaction that hardened their skin at dawn as a sort of armor which they shed in the evening. This evolved into the stone-like skin gargoyles sport during the day in modern times.

At the same time this stone skin hibernation was evolving the early Gargates were also advancing in their metabolic, body temp. regulatory and energy absorption abilities. They developed true warm-bloodedness to keep them warm at night, and as Sevarius pointed out, this takes a lot of energy. So they used something that was widely available in the late Permian. Heat.

Greg W. has said that the gargoyles absorb THERMAL energy. Not solar energy, not light energy. They are not absorbing light as a plant does. They are taking in heat from the sun and the environment. To warm their body and thus increase their thermal energy intake, their large sails on their backs spread out a bit, increasing surface area. They needed to remain light enough to get around though, so most of the surface area ended up being bones extended from their backs with skin strecthed across. These structures, of course, ended up evolving into another useful body part: wings. This theory explains a couple of things. First off, it could help explain why gargoyles seem to stretch open their wings at dawn. We rarely see a gargoyle turn to stone with his/her wings closed up. They often will open them just as the sun is rising. If I'm right, they are doing this in part to increase the surface area the sun will hit so they can collect more thermal energy. My theory also helps explain why gargoyles have wings at all. There has to be a very good reason why an animal would evolve a whole new set of limbs. If having lots of limbs was such a great thing without any drawbacks then more animals would have lots of limbs. Gargates developed their wings from the sails on the backs of a species of mammal-like reptiles for energy collection purposes. Later evolution used the structures to allow gliding. Later on some of the Gargates lost their wings in favor of a smaller and more terrestrial body plan. These would become the Beasts.

Hair on the Gargates could've already been present in the mammal-like reptiles, so mammal and gargate hair could have a common source. Or perhaps hair evolved seperately in the Gargates as further thermal isolation when they began their nocturnal lifestyle.

So, thats my theory. Interested to see what you guys think. The Gargates closest living relatives would still be the Mammals, but Gargates wouldn't be descended from them. They'd be distant cousin groups. Anyway, thats what I'm thinking."

Samuel> I'm the one who asked Greg about the Pendent Wearers getting sunburns. It was more of a joke than anything. Hard to say. Whitbourne? Personally, I see lots of nocturnal animals do alright during the day and they do alright. Perhaps the magic in the pendents allows them to continue to absorb the solar energy as a sleeping garg would. That would make sense because the Pendent Wearers still seem pretty energetic at night.

Vaevictis> There are actually two kinds of echidna, but yeah, those three species represent all thats left of the Monotremes. As you can read above, I think Synapsids, like Dimetrodon, are close relatives of Gargates and the sails along their backs evolved into wings, which, I think, can account for all the different types of wings we've seen on the show.

Lannie> Exactly! I agree totally, and glad to hear that my theories on gargate evolution are being backed up by professors.

Comic> I got the comic today. Review, etc. coming soon.

Comments, Questions... Feel free to let me know. I'm planning on writing up a big paper on gargate evolution eventually.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Cold does not bother us..." -Goliath "Reawakening"

Vaevictus> I had typed up the timeline-diversion post when you had posted yours. A did a quick response to that, saying how things like the mutations that caused the wings could have come up earlier, and how gargoyles did not have to come from the same lineage that led up mammals. What I wrote is that in my imagining of evolutionary divergences, proto-mammals split from the reptiles and birds, and later, somewhere before modern mammals and monotremes became distinct, there was split made by the proto-gargoyles. Just my theory, it's so clear in my head.

went to my local comic book shop after school and they had 3 issues left, so i bought all three :) I'll be sure to spread the word to my friends tomorrow
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Humans are such easy prey for a gargoyle!

Just got home with my copy of Gargoyles #2. Not sure how many copies the store had, but the person answering the phone knew right away what I was talking about when I said "Gargoyles" and held a copy for me until I could get in there after work.

19 days left before Gathering 2007 pre-registration prices increase (last day is December 31).
191 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]

Packrat Comics has it, and I reserved a copy for myself, which I will pick up tomorrow after withdrawing $170 from my account (for Xmas presents and other stuff). Point is, I'm planning to buy one extra copy for each of my friends. That means that, not counting my own, I may be buying at least 6 copies.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.

The Starjammers comic book store in University City has a copy reserved for me (I talked with them over the phone this afternoon), so I'm going by there to buy it tomorrow. And while I'm there, I'll see if I can spread the word in the store. (The main difficulty that I've currently got in spreading the word on the Internet is that while I frequent a few forums, it's hard to bring up the comic there in a way that doesn't feel like obnoxious spamming. Does anybody have any ideas on how to spread the word in ways that won't look like that?)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Uh... I DID NOT BUY 22 TOTAL COPIES... I meant that the three locations of that particular stor had 22 total copies... *SORRY* ... Not that rich...

and I meant 4:00 PM...

Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Read the comment room tonight at $:00 PM. Realized #2 was out, so i ran to get it. Was home 14 minutes. Got it at the second pace I went; the first had NONE AT ALL.

The second place had two copies (bought 'em both) and 22 TOATAL at the three stores around Edmonton. JUST 22. THAT NOT ACCEPTABLE.

But, they guy I talked to was a fan, so I hooked him up to our websites. He bought the DVDs and both issues, so I told him to spread the word.

AND I bought Season 1 as a gift for a friend.

I'm doing my part...

Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

For some reason Amazon.com has canceled my gargoyles #2 order, so I had to order it from another site. I have to wait a little longer for my comic book to arrive so hopefully i'll get it in time for my birthday in January.
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

Lannie > Was it Kuehneosaurus? Those were very similar to the living Draco lizards which I mentioned but overall, their rib-vanes were more specialised and flexible.

Asatira > I'm sorry, I don't know what you're referring to.

Vaevictis Asmadi

Comic > For those of you who had trouble getting your copies of the comic last time, I just want to remind you that you can order copies online. You'd end up paying shipping, but since it's Gargoyles, it's worth it. Mycomicshop.com is one of the sites I use.
Scott Iskow - [smiskow at lycos dot com]

I picked up gargoyles #2 today. I loved it. Love the new storylines etc.

Ok now before I used to be a supporter of the book doing good and everyone being to harsh on SLG comics etc.... Today in the store I over heard a conversation.
Some garg fans in the store who where not as into gargs as I or the rest of us, went with other books because of the time lapse it took to get the second book out. They did'nt want to wait that long and invested into another series.

So unfortunately Time will make or break this book.


Purplegoldfish - I am tempted to adjust my resume emphasizing my skills with databases and php and send a resume to SLG asking for a job to redo their website. Honestly, I have come to the conclusion that I could do a better job than the current administrator on everything but color coordination. For starters, the web store ordering page should automatically self-adjust when a comic comes out to let people order it so the website administrator doesn't have to manually add it in.
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

I just finished reading my copy of the second issue, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Personally, I think the art is much better in this one than the last, but still isn't as good as Jade-animated episodes. The cover is awesome. And I liked Greg B.'s review. Well done. :)

Demon@: I was just surprised to find out that English wasn't your first language. Your mastery of it exceeds that of some people I know.

Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

I picked up Gargoyles #2 this morning. Now, I have three local comic shops nearby, and visited all of them to see how they ordered the book. The one I frequent most only ordered the one copy I asked them to... I am hoping this is not a trend at most places, so, as Greg Weisman says, keep SPREADING THE WORD, and find local comic shops and encourage them to order it

Another shop, inside the shopping mall had three copies on sale, which I guess is average when you're not a comic being published by DC or Marvel Finally, one more had several copies of issue one and two, it's their Indie book of the week, and they are really pushing it.. one of the employees is a fan. But, we can't count on all the employees to be fans, so we need to encourage the stores to keep ordering.

Now, on to issue 2 itself.

Gargoyles #2
Clan-Building Chapter Two:
The Journey

More old material, with some new bits of dialogue in there. A lot more name-dropping, which, well, is understandable given that Greg needs to re-introduce everyone to the series and characters.

When last we left Goliath and Elisa, they were being pursued by several Quarrymen in a helicopter. Goliath takes several shots in the wing and plunges with Elisa to their deaths. Obviously, they don't die, or this would be a very short comic book.

This issue re-introduces us to Macbeth, who appears as a guest on Nightwatch debating Margot Yale (sporting a pink outfit, and being twice as repulsive as Professor Umbridge) about the "gargoyle problem". Macbeth is, of course, using his Lennox MacDuff alias... a medieval scholer and the author of a book titled "Gargoyles In Celtic Legend". Margot is an Assistent District Attorney and advisor to the NYPD's Gargoyle Task Force.

We are also re-introduced to Lexington, Fox and Alex. Fox seems to want to mend bridges with Lex, who, still is not fond of her, but since she's Alex's mother, he's willing to give it a shot. I suspect it's not going to be easy on either of them.

Then, we get Xanatos, who is so cool and, well, arrogant, that he just ignores a call from the Illuminati. I suspect we'll be hearing more from the All Seeing Society very soon.

Finally, we are re-introduced to Broadway and Angela, who, much to Brooklyn's disappointment, have started a relationship.

Goliath and Elisa are pursued by the Quarrymen, finally making their stand at the ruined Clocktower, where they easily defeat the Quarrymen, but are nearly killed by the hooded John Castaway. Vinnie, who was never comfortable with this, at first tries to talk Castaway out of killing them, but when it becomes clear (to Vinnie) that Castaway is a genocidal fanatic, Vinnie stands up to him, and is nearly killed because of it. Goliath manages to get the drop on him, but Castaway escapes. I am sure he and his Quarrymen will continue to make their presense known in NYC.

Goliath and Elisa thank Vinnie for helping them, and leaves, as mentioned last issue, he got a job in Japan. Goliath, as always, remains optimistic about the future, and despite the long hard journey, he has no regrets.

The issue ends with Macbeth and Margot yelling at each other. "Madame, they burned witches like you in the middle ages."... best line in the whole issue.

I liked it. I wish it didn't take us an extra four months to get, but I liked it. Greg's script is strong, I liked it ten years ago, and I like it today. But, it is material that I've seen before. I understand why Greg chose to start out with this story, it makes a great introduction, but two issues of old-stuff along with the long wait have made this feel like climbing over a mountain instead of a hill. But, we're past it now, nothing but new material from here on out.

The art... I'm sorry, but I'm still not a fan of either Hedgecock's pencils or Terrell's coloring. Thankfully, I read on Terrell's blog that he's leaving the book with this issue. I have hopes that the next colorist will me more experienced and will do a much better job.

Demona returns next issue, folks. I can't wait.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin

>Harvester of Eyes
It's true we don't have any living "false mammals" with a nocturnal internal clock, but it's harder to tell with extinct members. I would agree that their class would be Gargates, but I think what we're fishing for right now would possibly be "superclass", the difference between phylum and class is very big.

I would probably say that Gargoyles would have ancestry tracing back to synapsid reptiles, the clade that would lead to mammals. Bronx in particular makes me think of the cynodonts. They pre-date the monotremes. That being said, our professor in lecture mentioned that the only animal to have gargoyle-like wings (separate from the arms and legs) was a diapsid (aka sauropsid) reptile. He even introduced the slide as being for "all you fans of gargoyles who want to know if they could exist." Flight evolved and hit a dead-end about 13 times according to the latest fossil finds. Even though they only found one species that had gargoyle-like flight, it was to an advanced degree that they believe they have yet to find its direct predecessors.

I have my Prehistoric Life final tomorrow, so I'll ask my prof the species and genus name of the proto-gargoyle.

Lannie - [harshsaintcry at yahoo dot com]

Well, it exists! I got a copy today at the Newbury Comics in Harvard Square (Boston). It was the only copy they had, which worried me a little; after the success of the first issue I was hoping they'd order more than one. But I got it, so I'm happy enough with that. Up until the moment I saw it on the shelf I was afraid to really believe that it might actually be out today ;).

Of course, I have a big paper due at 5 pm today so I don't have time to go over it yet... Be back later this afternoon. Hope others are having luck finding copies!

Kaylle - [kaylle at ladyavalon dot com]

Jurgan- Thank you! :) Or as Eeyore would say-Thanks for noticing me ;)
Yeah, I've been around, lurking a lot-don't know why I haven't posted though. I don't think I'll be adding anything to the current biology topic however-unless everyone wants to witness my true idiocy, heh.

comic: I'm annoyed that SLG doesn't have it in there webstore. I'm going to keep checking back today. Amazon doesn't have it either, though I won't order it from them-I had a lot of problems the last time with them.

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)

Yes i havent thought of that, Vaevictis Asmadi. And also there are gargoyles such as the london clan that have feathers. Perhaps gargoyles could be another order of vertebrates, one that share characteristic of all the others and some of insects like the 6 members thing.
Or maybe they are just the aliens that helped the egyptians to build the pyramids.

Demon@ - [dot dot dot and where is the donkey??]

Sorry for double post, but just wanted to add that what V.A. said is the biggest counter to my theory. Where on earth did those come from?

Demon@> You're very close, just off by a letter. In English, it's "Monotremes". Flipping through Dawkins' "The Ancestor's Tale", and according to the time line, "true-mammals" and marsupials split from monotremes (ie, last known shared ancestors) about 180 million years ago. According to Dawkins, the mammalian clade split the sauropsids (reptiles and birds)around 130 million years prior, during this period there were mammal-like reptiles. I believe we discussed the probable timeline before. If I were to go gargates being more closely related to mammals than reptiles, I'd say they split off around the same time as the mammal-like reptiles, but after that... *throws hands up* Could be anywhere in there. But that's on the assumption that they were from the same lineage as posited above. Another theory could work just as well.

Yes, in English they are called monotremes and the two animals in that group aer echidna and platypus.

There however, were probably other groups of proto-mammals, other than monotremes, that layed eggs, and those could also be the ancestors of Gargoyles. I don't think the hair means much, since some scientists think that pterodactyls also had hair. But the combination of warm-bloodedness and milk means that I think, they are probably closest to mammals.

One big question is how did they evolve a third set of limbs? Vertebrates all have four limbs, or less. It would take quite a mutation of the HOX complex of genes to duplicate the forelimbs and provide wings, but mutating the HOX genes could cause massive deformities that would kill the mutants.
However, I've been looking at pictures of different Scottish Gargoyles, and some of them (such as Desdemona) have very peculiar wing structures that do not resemble vertebrate limbs at all. Some even have multiple bony structures coming directly from their shoulders. I wonder if this evolved from cartilaginous (sp?) rods growing from the spine or ribs, and only later evolved to resemble, in some Gargoyles, a set of limbs, by some of the rods binding together to resemble the "wing-arm" and others fanning out like fingers.
There is a type of lizard that has extended ribs with wing-like membranes on it, but then Gargoyles do seem to have ribs covering their chest as well, so they can't have evolved exactly the same structure. But maybe something similar.

Vaevictis Asmadi

Yup :) ...why?
Demon@ - [dot dot dot and where is the donkey??]

Demon@, is Spanish your first language?
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

Actually the false mammals were warm-blooded. Its hard to find the proper traslation (so hard i coudnt find it XD) to english but the living "false-mammals" that are considered in fact as mammals rather than reptiles for the fur that covers their skin are call monotremas (in spanish, sorry :P). If from apes it could evolve a "superior" race such as humans it could also be possible that from monotremas evolve another "superior" race such as gargoyles. I would classify them within the monotremas order withing a new class like gargates.
So the scientific name of a gargoyle could be gargated iracundus, i.e Demona Hehehe.

Demon@ - [dot dot dot and where is the donkey??]

Phoenician> Yeah, maybe. :P

Siren> Well, now I'm intrigued. Got a URL? :)

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.

Laurana: The SLG site has a locator of shops that sell their titles, but I don't think it's all inclusive, because my local shop isn't on it, and I know that they carry at least four of SLG's non-Disney titles, in addition to all the Disney titles.

On the topic of the SLG site, they don't have Garg2 available for purchase on the site itself. Irritating.

Gargoyle Physiology: I think it would make a lot of sense for gargates to have evolved from the "false mammals" and over time evolved thermeo...big word that Whitmore used. Warm-blooded-ness. Homeothermic. It doesn't seem likely that a nocturnal animal would evolve while being cold-blooded.

Speaking of which. In the AG archives, I came across someone's question along the lines of, "Do the Mayan gargoyles get sunburn," and Greg didn't have an answer. I figured I'd mention my theory now that it (mostly) links with the current topic at hand. I'd think the magic from the amulets would need to protect the gargoyles, as it seems to me, they would be sensitive to light, especially in the eyes which have probably adapted to see best in the dark, being noctornal. Which I misspelled. But, that's my thought.

I can't wait until I get my hands on the comic. :D

Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

I think their Class would be gargates. Don't see too many false mammals with a gargoyle's internal clock.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Right now, his reflexes are better than Dale Earnhardt Jr's!" -Gregory House, MD.

Demon@> That's a neat thought. Where do gargoyles fit on the taxonomic tree?

I'd be inclined to put them closer to "true" mammals than that though an early divergence from our line would be key. I don;t think gargoyles themselves are actually reptiles, in that the sheer amount of energy they require would make them almost have to be homeothermic ("Warm-blooded")as opposed to poikilothermic (so-called "cold-blooded"). Plus, it'd be hard for a cold blooded species do engage in all of its activity at night.

Though of course it's possible that a reptile like species could have evolved homeothermy. Who knows? Myself, I have a bias towards a mammalian common ancestor, but it's an interesting thought.

Whitbourne - [Oh my God, I'm actually writing!]

Okay...So, I've just been wondering if any of you have had the same problem with Amazon that I have. Back in September(or maybe it was October??)when issue #2 was originally going to be released, I had purchased the comic via their website. I have recieved 3 revisal e-mails since then about the date being pushed back. The most recent one told me that it would be shipped in January! Imagine my annoyance when I find out that the comic comes out today! I think I'm just gonna forget Amazon and hope that I can find a local comic shop that has a copy. It's all rather irritating, but I'm just so excited for new "Gargoyles" material that I'm willing to go through anything to get it! I've been a HUGE fan since the beginning of the show (unfortunately never made it to a con :P) and I'll be a fan for the rest of my days, I suspect.

BTW...rather interesting topic regarding gargoyle physiology/anatomy/biology. It's a subject that has always fascinated me. I thoroughly enjoy reading the back and forth comments and debates. Nothing like a little friendly banter. ;)

Laurana - [phoenixflame_1 at yahoo dot com]

Yes.......today is the day, ha ha ha ha ha!
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Humans are such easy prey for a gargoyle!

Wow, yeah, great topic here. I really hope thise makes sense :P
All vertebrates have the same skeleton structure, from the fish to the bird and i dont think gargoyles would be an exception. During the dinosaur´s period there were animals that had characteristic of both mammals and reptiles (false mammals) the ancestors of actual mammals.
Gargoyles have the same condition, so probably they have envolv from those animales. There is a group of mammals considered as the only survivors of the "false-mammals" such as the equidna and, i dont know how you call it there :P, the ornitorrinco: their skull have reptile´s characteristics, they lay eggs and feed their babes with milk.
Gargoyles walk on two legs and on their feet´s fingers and so far the only animals withouth feather that had done that were the dinosaurs. Their tail is a dinosaur characteristic as well. They lay eggs and feed their babes with milk.
Probably gargoyles would be classify withing the group of "false mammals".

Demon@ - [dot dot dot and where is the donkey??]

KingCobra>Seth answered about 6 questions the other day. That doesn't mean he won't publically answer mine, but much like Greg, there are good and bad times to answer questions. He chooses which ones to answer and which ones he won't answer. He never sends an email, just posts the questions he answered on his site. There is little doubt, he got my email, he might not answer it publically, but I may have given him an idea. I hope I did. Their parodies of X-Men and Teen Titans were particularly amusing. I can't even imagine what he might do to our precious Gargoyles, but it will likely be hilarious.
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]

I don't think they are actually photosynthesizing anything, I think they are absorbing thermal energy as Greg has said. This is not at all unusual in the animal kingdom, most animals do it, including some warm-blooded mammals such as sloths. The turning to stone thing doesn't bother me biologically because I have, in my head and in this Room, explained my thoughts on gargoyle evolution.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Cold does not bother us..." -Goliath "Reawakening"

I was just using "photosynthesis" as shorthand for "whatever strange chemical processes allow stone sleep and maybe also absorbing sunlight."

If they do absorb sunlight like Sevarius thought, then I don't think it is photosynthesis as such or they would turn into pigmented stone, not grey stuff.

Vaevictis Asmadi

Vaevectis> I agree with a lot of what you said, there.

Do we know, though, that gargoyles photosynthesize? That was just a theory proposed by sevarius, and while it may be possible, it'd certainly be outside the realm of experience in the animal kingdom. (Though, admittedly, so are animals turning to "stone").

It's probably likely that there are several forms of metbolism that gargoyles use. Eating food, breaking down glucose, and using it and oxygen in cellular respiration, like the rest of us do, would probably be a huge part of it. The fact that gargoyles /have/ gastrointestinal tracts would support this, because if they got all of their energy from sunlight in stone then why have a gi tract at all? It'd just take up energy that you'd use for other things. But there's nothing saying that they can't get a "top-up" from light or ultraviolet light while in stone, using that energy to synthesize glucose to a level that their likely high metabolisms wouldn't get otherwise.

But hey, here's a thought. Their whole bodies turn to stone, but when they wake up, we only ever see the outermost layers get cast away. What happens to the rest of the "stone-like substance" that makes up their form during they day? What if it's an energy rich substance that can be used for metabolic functions itself, and the stuff that doesn't get cast off gets reabsorbed and broken down? Maybe exposure to UV radiation energizes it beyond the energy you need to manufacture it, and that net gain of energy can be used to further drive up functions? It's easier to break down and use something you already have than to synthesize it de novo.

This, too, is just speculation, but I think it's a neat idea. Turning to stone just might be a gargoyle way of "charging the batteries", even in areas with low sunlight or low UV permeation. Spend a little energy turning to stone, gain more back when the sun goes down. It's a thought, anyway.

Whitbourne - [Oh my God, I'm actually writing!]

I too have wondered about bacteria in gargoyles. Of course I as a laymen in the field would be more interested in learning how often bacteria jump to and from gargoyles and other species successfully. Who knows maybe Greg Weisman will put something like that in the new comic.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!

"it is clear that gargoyles are basically vertebrates and in fact, amniotes which lay hard eggs"

I'd be careful saying that anything in this subject is "clear." We've discussed biology a number of times, but all we've got for sure is that they're vertebrates. Greg calls them "gargates," which I originally thought was a separate class of vertebrate, but then I realized he's never explicitly said they aren't part of some other class. In any event, it's an interesting topic, but we've yet to come to a consensus.

I also have trouble with people shrugging off any consideration of gargoyle disease with "stone sleep." It has to have limits, or gargoyles would be immortal. My guess is that it mostly reacts to injury. I can justify this by saying that there's some organ in the gargoyles in charge of regulating the stone sleep. Most likely it'd be handled by the medulla (brain stem), which handles all unconscious body activity. It reacts to sudden changes to the body by attempting to restore it to the way it was the previous day. However, minute changes would be less likely to be detected, and could accumulate over the years to create serious health risks such as heart disease. Hey, this is getting interesting, considering that I just came up with all of this while typing.

Greg has said that he'd always hoped to get more use out of Dr. Sato during the series but never got the chance. Maybe now that we have the comic, we'll get to see him again. I like the idea of him being the gargoyles' "good doctor," but not so much the idea about meeting them through Xanatos. I'd rather Xanatos not simply turn into the gargoyles' rich benefactor, and I know there are a lot of others who feel even more strongly about Xanatos turning good (hi, Greg Bishansky!)

And, hey, Purplegoldfish, it's good to see you back! I'd just been thinking of you, what with this Arlo debacle. It occurred to me that we have a number of newbies who show up, slowly turn nasty, and then leave in a huff. Some months ago, you and a few other newbies joined who were surprisingly intelligent and civil, but I don't remember seeing any of you in a while. I can't think of many people who've joined in the last year or two and stayed for the long haul, and I was worried we were doing something to scare away new members. I'd love to see you and others stick around.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Was Sato a surgeon? Cause maybe I'm biased, but we internal medicine types'd be better at piecing together how gargoyles work than surgeons would.

(Kidding, kidding - just a bit of the old surgeon/doctor rivalry coming to play there :-)

Whitbourne - [Oh my God, I'm actually writing!]

Continued confirmation: My local comic store e-mails a weekly list of the week's issues. I just got this week's list and Gargoyles #2 is on it. I can hardly wait for tomorrow!
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]

Samuel> I've seen the episode rather recently, and it pretty much was Peter Maza being forward. There was more dynamics between Captain Chavez and the Maza Family in the following scene though . . . I think that's the scene where it becomes clear that she is a friend to the family as well as Elisa (and Derek)'s Boss.

King Cobra> Hey, if Renard hires Sato, you can be sure that Xanatos' will hire him! (Just like Burnett, Sevarious, and -- though she never worked for Renard, I imagine -- Fox!)

Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]

Hah woops, I meant programmed cell death probably happens at night.
Vaevictis Asmadi

Stone sleep has always been a problem for me in terms of imagining how it could work biologically. However, I doubt that it genuinely "fixes everything" and I don't think that's what Greg meant to say. Clearly it doesn't fix aging, and why would it since that would require some kind of telomere replacement. Why would it prevent programmed cell death, which probably happens during the day anyway? My guess is that when it comes to diseases, the toxins are chemically disrupted by turning to stone, and bacteria not adapted to their bodies are killed or something. Although that doesn't explain why diseases could not have evolved specifically to target gargoyles, or why endemic symbiotic bacteria can't become malevolent (as E. coli sometimes does).

Regarding general physiology, Greg has stated that gargoyles evolved from a natural animal, possibly dinosaurs or mammals. Leaving aside the question of how wings evolved, it is clear that gargoyles are basically vertebrates and in fact, amniotes which lay hard eggs. They have bones, spines, organs, etc. So they will at least be as physiologically similar as fish and possibly, as similar as mammals.
Certainly, the changes necessary for stone sleep and absorbing sun energy will have major consequences for their chemical processes. But at least physically, their structure is the same, and some of their biological chemicals (such as neurotransmitters) are probably very similar to whatever animals they evolved from.
Drugs that work on humans are tested on rats and usually, the results are roughly similar. Although there are considerable concerns about testing human medicine on rats and assuming the results will be the same: there have been slip-ups where the results were disastrously different. Even two humans can have radically different reactions to a drug. So I'd guess that some drugs would work on gargoyles and some would not, and it would be a total crap-shoot to guess which. And without a gargate equivalent of rats. (leaving aside the ethical questions of animal testing).
But I think that aside from drugs, gargoyles still eat food and therefore, have part of their metabolism that processes glucose. Likewise they breathe oxygen, have hearts that pump blood, etcetera. So I think they probably are subject to hypertension, high blood pressure, and maybe something akin to diabetis. Even if they are also subject to bizarre gargate diseases that interfere with photosynthesis, or whatever. Some things, physically, are still similar enough.

Vaevictis Asmadi

Siren> latest questions??

Samuel> Perhaps Xanatos would/will someday hire him as the clan's official physician? Imagine the possibilities...

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.

I think it would be neat for Dr. Sato to return to the show, or comics, rather. I seem to remember him being familiar with Elisa's family, but that might just have been, "I'm Doctor Sato, and I'm treating your daughter." And Peter was just upfront, with the, "Don't sugarcoat it, doctor."

Having given it more thought, I feel less inclined to think they knew each other. But I still think he could provide very neat character dynamics pertaining to the gargoyles.

Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

KingCobra>He didn't publically answer it in his latest questions, but perhaps it got the wheels turning :)
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]

Off-topic> So, any response mail from Seth Green on that would-be Robot Chicken Gargoyles sketch yet?
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.

Im sorry to break down momentarily such a interesting topic here but i was checking the archives last night and i saw these:
what is king Duncan's reaction to the news that cawdor is a traitor ?what will happen to his title'
2-do Macbeth and Banquo have the same reaction to ROSS'NEWS?

Greg responds...
Are you writing a term paper, Hanna?
Or are you just quizzing me on my Reading Comprehension of the play?
This seems rather pointless.


Demon@ - [dot dot dot and where is the donkey??]

I always had hoped that Dr. Sato (the doc that treated Elisa when she was shot) would return to the show and become a sort of friend to the Clan, almost an anti-Sevarius he'd be a good doctor for the gargoyles.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Cold does not bother us..." -Goliath "Reawakening"

Matt> Oh, of course. It's all just speculative. But so fun, though. :-)
Todd> I gather a legitimate doctor would ask them for informed consent and would do as much of the tests as noninvasively as possible. A full body CT or MRI would clear most of the anatomical stuff up anyway.

Most of the basic biochemical stuff they'd have done with the blood samples they already have anyway, though the ethical thing to do would be to ask if they can use the data. Stuff like a basic complete blood count, biochemical panel (electrolytes, creatinine, urea, liver enzymes) if only to get a sense of what normal ranges were.


Of course, the tricky part will be getting the gargoyles to agree to having biologists study them in the first place. The only scientist that they've met so far who comes anywhere near that field is Sevarius - and I hope that Goliath and the others would be wise enough not to judge the entire profession by him. They'd certainly be cautious about any biological scientist who'd be sponsored by Xanatos as well, and I'm not certain that any scientists who weren't sponsored by him would have close contact with the gargoyles for a long time. Not to mention that I think that Bronx would especially object to veterinarians investigating him....
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

I want to say that during the biology panel at the last Gathering, either Greg or someone else suggested that most likely some bacteria have evolved alongside gargoyles, so there could be/are bacteria that are resistant/immune/unaffected by the stone sleep. Hey, bacteria can be pretty flexible, and there are hundreds of examples of bacteria and microscopic symbiotes (both benign and harmful) evolving to be host specific.

As to other health issues, I like to think stone sleep is stronger than human healing systems, but only in regards to wounds. I don't think it would recognize things like cholesterol build-up; and while it's pretty strong, gargoyle bodies still wear down over time, just like most everything else. I mean, look at Hudson's wings.


Whit> You make good points, and I'm not disagreeing with you on them or anything else. All I'm saying is that we don't know enough to say anything for sure.

And for the record, I too have wondered in the past about the bacteria within the gargoyles body.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Cold does not bother us..." -Goliath "Reawakening"

Matt, you make a good point. (how interesting would it be if Gargoyles were more plantlike than animallike as far as photosynthesis) But, as far as I know, which is by no means far, every animal on earth has bacteria in its systems. Although I think you were responding to Whitmore's other post about the lifespans... *mumble mumble* Either way, it's all good food for thought. :D

Whit, I wish I were a little smarter so I could understand more of what you pondered about the bacteria and whatnot.

Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

Greg don't know much about biology, to paraphrase the old song. :-)

Yeah, I'm being presumptive, but to be honest, it's pretty unlikely that the basic anatomical and phsyiological plan is that different. There may be some local variations, like you say, in things like the respiratory system, but the fact is that most terrestrial veretbrates have a similar plan in terms of anatomical organization. Birds have spleens. Dogs get diabetes. Fish have the same basic organization of the central nervous system. All animals get diseases and get sick.

Basically, the idea of stone sleep fixing everything just doesn't make sense. First of all, you have to have some biological mechanism for stone sleep to occur and to reverse, meaning that this, too, is a biological process, and likely controlled by the nervous and endocrine systems. The gargoyle's cells can't just "turn to stone" and "fix everything", because then...well, aging is cellular damage. We age because our cellular structures oxidize, our chromosomes use up the telomere caps at the end, and our systems "run down". Gargoyles age, and stone sleep doesn't reverse the aging process, or else gargoyles wouldn;t age at all. Therefore we know that stone sleep doesn't 'fix everything'. Likewise if stone sleep "fixed everything' then cells wouldn't apoptose and gargoyles would be riddled with cancer; in fact, it's likely that they wouldn't be able to learn or form memories because synaptic rewiring and long-term potentiation in the nervous system depends n cellular and molecular change.

We know that gargoyles bleed and feel pain. We know they have to eat. We can speculate based on these that there are at the very least analogous processes to what we do, and from there we can extrapolate that since gargoyles evolved naturally they likely exhibit the same processes that all other higher order vertebrates do, and are therefore subject to the same limitations - namely, aging, getting sick, and dying. Yeah, maybe they have four kidneys, but that doesn't mean that the kidneys couldn't get damaged, and you could still end up with a gargoyle with acute interstitial nephritis.

Why couldn't Hudson have a heart attack? He has a heart, assumably, and that heart needs blood to function. If something - anything - interrupts that blood flow, then that's a myocardial infarction. Why is it unlikely that if Hudson were never to get in a battle again, and eat chips and sit on the couch all night, that his coronary arteries couldn't block off and cut off the blood supply any more than Xanatos' could?

Whitbourne - [Oh my God, I'm actually writing!]

Maybe the bacteria in them have simply evolved to suit their needs. Or rather, to better accommodate the symbiotic relationship with their host, which suits the needs of both.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Right now, his reflexes are better than Dale Earnhardt Jr's!" -Gregory House, MD.

Whit> I don't know much anatomy or physiology, but it sounds like you are making a lot of assumptions. How do you know that a gargoyle's metabolism is similiar to a humans? How do you know that glucose is their primary energy source? I think thermal sunlight energy is more likely, given that it provides them with the energy of three cows a day! And who knows how the healing process in their stone sleep affects injuries. How do you know a gargoyle can ever get diabetes or even has a spleen? Frankly, there is almost no knowledge of gargoyle body systems and I think it is entirely possible that most human diagnosis' and treatments would not be effective for gargoyles.
In any event, Greg has said that essentially gargoyles do not suffer from diseases due to the rejuvenating properties of their stone sleep, so all this is kinda moot. But the whole point is, the anatomy of a gargoyle is simply too alien to make such assumptions. For all we know they could have four lungs or only one kidney or two hearts or whatever. Given their airborne nature, it wouldn't be surprising if they had a series of air sacs and a very advanced respiratory system, like birds do. The fact that they are egg layers means that their reproductive system is very different from ours, and their ability to absorb solar energy means their metabolism and energy storage properties may be very different.

There are simply too many unknowns to start guessing that Hudson could die from a heart attack or diabetes or whatnot.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Cold does not bother us..." -Goliath "Reawakening"

Hey, here's another thought. Maybe this is kind of gross. Whatever, it's a way to procrastinate studying for my licensing exam. :-)

We know that humans contain billions of bacteria on our skin, on our hair, on our mucous membranes, inside our digestive tracts, etc. This is unavoidable, and in some cases, completely necessary. Bacteria help to break down our food, are involved with the metabolism of certain nutrients (like vitamin B12, essential for proper formation of blood cells, cell division, and the nervous system) and help prevent the growth of harmful pathogenic bacteria; if you kill these bacteria, for instance, it paves the way for infection with Clostridium difficile, leading to a dangerous form of colitis.

GArgoyles would have to have these bacteria too. They live in the same environment and eat similar foods, and it's impossible to ingest food or live where we do and not come in contact with mutualistic and commensal bacteria. So gargoyles would have to be colonized with these bacteria as well.

What would happen to those bacteria when gargoyles turn to stone? Would all the E. coli in the gargoyle digestive tract turn to stone with them, or have they been colonized with other bacteria and microorganisms that could withstand that sort of pressure?

This is a really weird question. I may be the only person in the fandom who's ever wondered about it. But seriously though, what happens to the colonizing bacteria when a gargoyle turns to stone?

Don't go into medicine. You'll turn into a cataclysmic geek like me.


Purple Goldfish> You make a really good point. With your argument in mind, I can't see Goliath weeping over Thailog's death, unless Thailog showed signs of redemption, maybe. However, I don't overly doubt that Goliath would feel some level of depression, considering his unique connection with Thailog. BUt then again, I haven't seen the evolution of their relationship, having only seen The Reckoning once or twice, and never seeing Sanctuary. :)
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

I think to a large extent some treatments would work, especially those that have effects on strutcures and molecules preserved across species. If a gargoyle were tachycardic, I'd expect that something like a beta blocker would work to slow the heart rate down, because gargoyles probably have similar beta adrenergic receptors in their cardiac muscle as we do just because those molecules would be preserved. They may not be as effective, but I'm sure they would work, and with some research, gargoyle specific therapies would probably be feasible rather quickly.

Gargoyles would have to be subject to similar diseases as humans, simply because they are biological systems as we are. And biological systems have anomalies and dysfunctions; it's simply the nature of biology. A gargoyle has to get energy from food, and gargoyles are not that dissimilar to humans in terms of metabolism, so likely they'd break things down and use glucose as a primary source of energy. You have to store that glucose somewhere, so gargoyles would need insulin, or an insulin-like hormone, in order to store glucose in muscle tissue. That gives all kinds of "targets" for gargoyle insulin to break down. What if the gargoyle can't produce the insulin it needs? You'd get type I diabetes though likely that gargoyle would die rather quickly from ketoacidosis - much like a human would. What if the insulin receptors in the muscles get desensitized and glucose isn;t taken into the muscles efficiently? Then the gargoyle would get type II diabetes, which may be a concern for Hudson, and Broadway down the line. Likewise fats; gargoyles would have the same exposures to saturated fats and cholesterol as we would, and so a gargoyle who lived long enough, with a poor enough diet would likely end up with atherosclerosis or its gargoyle equivalent.

And well, trauma's trauma. If a gargoyle gets his spleen ruptured by blunt force to the abdomen, then that spleen either has to be repaired or removed or else the gargoyle might bleed out and die. Likewise a basilar skull fracture from a blow to the head, or something as relatively simple as a comminuted fracture to a long bone. (In fact, that might even be more important - say a gargoyle is hit in the ankle and shatters the ends of the tibia and fibula into multiple pieces, such that they aren't properly aligned. If she turns to stone with the fracture displaced, then those bones will heal in stone sleep, but they'd likely heal wrong and the gargoyle will be left with sclerosed, malunified bone, and possibly one leg shorter than the other. Now, if that gargoyle got an orthopedic surgeon and got the ankle joint fixed with an open reduction with internal fixation, that would eliminate the problem altogether.

The bottom line is, of course, that gargoyles in 2006 need a lot of biophysical and biomedical research done in order to give them the proper health care they need. And I'd still love to see an MRI of the gargoyle brain. :-)


Speaking of "Ask Greg", there's a question that I've sometimes thought of asking Greg, but which might be a little too silly.

One of the "Treehouse of Terror" stories on "The Simpsons" had a scene where Homer does in the Grim Reaper, with the result that, with the Reaper dead, nobody can die - followed by such things as a mob boss having an informer gunned down and wondering why on earth the guy isn't dying.

I found myself wondering whether Greg, when he saw it (since we know that he watches "The Simpsons"), might have thought something along the lines of "Oh, great! Remind me again how I didn't think of putting that bit into 'Grief' until it was too late!"

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Just on the record.

We were inviting and polite to Arlo. It was he who decided to become a "victim" and degrade and belittle everyone who crossed his path. I certainly am always talking about this place to new and old fans of the show. Inviting them here. And in the past, have NEVER felt that angry towards anyone here. It was his total disregard for the respect of a fellow human life that made him feel unwelcome here....and that is not our fault. When you alienate yourself by using insults to feel like you're smart....you're still alientating yourself. If he came on here and apologized for all he said, I would be certainly happy and so long as he didn't turn to using insults again in that way, I wouldn't mind him being here at all. We all have different opinions, but it doesn't make someone worthless and stupid when they don't agree with you. Once Arlo can figure that out, he is more then welcome to come back in my book.

Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]

WHITBOURNE - Of course, that raises the question as to whether gargoyles (who are biologically different from humans in many ways) would even get that many human diseases. (Not to mention that their being biologically different from humans could raise the issue over whether medical cures designed to work on humans would work as well on gargoyles - I'm glad that they at least briefly mentioned in "The Dying of the Light" that procedures uses to treat glaucoma in humans might not be so suitable for gargoyles.)

I got an e-mail from Greg Weisman about last week's debate, and he gave me permission to print it here.

"Who is to decide what qualifies as a legit exception because I could never use it? The poster or me? Answer: NEITHER!! If put to the test, it would be a judge who doesn't know the series. Or an arbitrator. Or perhaps a jury of twelve of my "peers" deciding whether I stole something from someone on a property that I don't own but still somehow call my own.
The "no exceptions" policy isn't about making individual decisions. It's not about making judgement calls. It's the policy ITSELF that protects me. The legal threat to me isn't even necessarily about something I've SEEN. Someone could submit something and CLAIM that I've seen it, even if I didn't. The policy protects me, because I can say that the mere existence of the policy and my strict adherence to it makes the claim unlikely at best.

The fact that the occasional slip has happened -- though I'm not at all sure that the Lex example listed below qualifies as a slip -- is hardly justification for throwing out the policy. And the notion that an idea is safe for me to see if I could never use it in any way, shape or form for S&P reasons -- which I find dubious at best (given all the potentially S&P unfriendly things I've ALREADY gotten away with in the t.v. series, let alone the upcoming comics) -- is neither here nor there. It's an immaterial consideration.

I hope that's clear. Having said all that, I also hope everyone in the comment room would be polite and welcoming to everyone else. It doesn't help the cause to alienate anyone. The notion of "agreeing to disagree" and then dropping the subject, the notion of refusing to allow anyone to bate you is difficult but valuable. At the end of the day, Todd, what's debated in the comment room has nothing to do with how you and I run Ask Greg. We make the final calls, no matter what gets said there."

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

I need to stop lurking around... Get ready for a long post!

In response to Todd's question about Goliath/Thailog: I will go on the other end of things and say that I don't think it's in Goliath's character to cry over Thailog. In fact that scene always bothered me-I hate that ep.

Recall Goliath's first reaction to Thailog in double Jeopardy...he wasn't exactly happy about him then, and Elisa is the one who made the whole "son" connetion. In Sanctuary, Goliath pretty much cuts all emotional ties with him by the end of the episode.

Then in Thailog's last appearance in the ep Revelations, he threatens to murder the whole clan-I kind of think that would put him in Goliath's "I don't care if he dies" list. In the fire on the rollercoaster Thailog appears to have perished-and Goliath doesn't even make a mention of him. Yeah, G seems to be sad about Demona, but I think he's more sad for the fact that Angela is upset-and remember, he had a much more complicated and emotional history with Demona than with Thailog.

Another point- It seems to take A LOT to make Goliath cry-and even then he doesn't weep, as he's seen doing in the season 3 ep. I mean, we don't even see him cry when his whole CLAN is masaccred for crying out loud! Yeah, I think he's capable of expressing extreme emotional pain but he seems to keep it bottled up inside most of the time (which can lead to many bad things such as Goliath "committing suicide" in Awakenings and him going ballistic and plotting revenge on the Hunters in Hunter's Moon).

And if I recall correctly we only see Goliath shed a tear twice in the whole series: When he learns of Demona's betrayal, and when he believes Elisa is dead...so he only seems to actually cry over individuals with which he has extreme emotional attachment to-and I think it's safe to say that Thailog is not one of them.

Do I think Goliath would be sad about Thailog's death? Maybe-but not for Thailog's character per se. I think he would be more sad for the fact that Thailog was never a gargoyle that was allowed to think in the "gargoyle way." He was programmed right from the beginning so it would be impossible to change his perceptions (I actually have always seen Thailog as more like a machine than a living being in that regard). To Goliath I think his death would represent no more than a tragic use and waste of a gargoyle life.

Whew, that was a long post. But I think it makes up for the fact that I haven't posted here in a while haha. But I just thought this a really interesting topic because I remember after first seeing that episode being truly annoyed at Goliath's crying over Thailog's death. So I said my piece on the subject-anyone agree with me? heh ;)

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)

Abby> "Gargoyles do not age during their stone sleep, so they age only half as quickly as humans do. Thus, a 30-year-old gargoyle would be biologically equivalent to a 15-year-old human. A gargoyle could theoretically live to close to 200, but most gargoyles die premature deaths through being slain in battle or smashed in their stone sleep. Gargoyles such as Hudson who live to a ripe old age are rare indeed."

I wonder how much that'll change in 2006 as gargoyles now have access to modern medicine. Injured in battle? Damn, Goliath, we don't just bandage people up and give them herbs, now - we have FAST ultrasound scanning to check for abdominal trauma, with rapid laparoscopic surgical intervention! Hit in the head with a Viking mace? Never you fear...now that we can do evacuation craniotomies and understand the principles of head trauma and increased intracranial pressure, well, we can keep them on mannitol and nimlodipine until the subarachnoid bleeding goes down.

In fact, maybe gargoyles in the twenty-first century are going to start discovering the wonders of insulin-independent diabetes mellitus, hypertension, and atherosclerosis. Hudson's far more likely to die of myocardial infarction or stroke than he is of battle wounds, I would say.

Speaking of which - damn, wouldn;t it be cool to get an MRI scan of the gargoyle brain? How big dio you figure their cerebellum and their precentral gyri would have to be to coordinate three extra appendages?


I would also like to see "The Journey" available on DVD - either as an extra on S2V2 or even on a release of TGC. I don't recall that "The Journey" was among the very few TGC episodes I saw.

I never saw the death of Thailog episode. But as others have said, I think Goliath would lament the loss, not only as a "son" and a gargoyle, but perhaps also because there would be no more opportunity to redeem or restore Thailog to the clan. But in the long run Goliath's main reaction might be one of relief that this formidable enemy would no longer threaten his clan.

Vicky - Here's a comment from the Biology entry on the Garg wiki site (http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Gargoyles): "Gargoyles do not age during their stone sleep, so they age only half as quickly as humans do. Thus, a 30-year-old gargoyle would be biologically equivalent to a 15-year-old human. A gargoyle could theoretically live to close to 200, but most gargoyles die premature deaths through being slain in battle or smashed in their stone sleep. Gargoyles such as Hudson who live to a ripe old age are rare indeed."


Quick question. When we say that Thailog is the next "big baddie" does that mean that he is the new/next "main" villian or be a part with the other big baddies? Just curious on this.
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Humans are such easy prey for a gargoyle!

Lannie> Well, I wouldn't necessarily want the TGC on DVD, but if we ever get a Season II: Volume II release, I would at least like "The Journey" included in the set as a bonus per se.

As for Thailog . . . I do think that scene is true to both characters . . . but I would think Thailog would have enjoyed causing grief to all three of his fathers . . . I can't remember the full episode, but Xanatos seems oddly absent in that ep.

But I'm glad the ep's not Canon . . . I like the idea of Thailog being the next Big Baddie.

Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]

Vicky -- I think that Gargoyles live approximately twice as long as humans, so potentially I think they can live about 210 years, max.
Vaevictis Asmadi

Wow, all this talk about Thailog and the clones is strange considering I had a nightmare about Thailog the other night. Actually, the scary part wasn't Thailog himself. In my dream I was watching the TGC's episode of Thailog & the clones on DVD, the nightmare part was that Disney released Goliath Chronicles on DVD but not Season 2 Volume 2. Thankfully that wouldn't happen considering TGC includes later season 2 characters, and frankly I don't think any of us really want TGC on DVD.

In response to dph_of_rules and anyone else whom it concerns, I live close to 2 comic shops. I would be more than happy to purchase and ship copies of Volume 2 to anyone who needs it, you pay only the price of the comic and shipping, there's no profit involved here. I know I can ship within the US and Canada, with international orders we'd have to look up the particulars.

Lannie - [harshsaintcry at yahoo dot com]

This is really bugging me and I can't find the answer anywhere in the archives. How long do Gargoyles live for?
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

Goliath does see Thailog as a son... an evil bastard of a son, but a son. It's complex, like all the relationships on the show are.

I will admit, the death scene was "good" sorta... not the episode or the scene, but... well, I'm having a hard time describing this. I'm just glad it's not canon

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin

Wow! Maybe we do owe Arlo a debt of thanks since his flame war increased the amount traffic in the room. Even after the flame war ended. Perhaps controlled flames in the future might be used to increase activity.

Who weeps for Thailog- Goliath seems to be the type to weep over any lost gargoyle. That's part of what makes him a good leader. If Goliath was incapable of weeping for a fallen foe like Thailog or Demona then I'd say he wouldn't deserve to be leader and even Iago would be a better suited at that point.

Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!

What a fascinating topic. I haven't seen that TGC episode since I was 8 years old, if I saw it then. And I can only remember a handful of episodes past what is available on DVD. But I feel that Goliath has a bit of a superman complex, whereupon he might feel depression at knowing he failed at rescue Thailog from himself, whom he might have considered represents a piece of his soul, judging by what Goliath exclaimed in 'Double Jeopardy.' (long sentence)

On a side note of unimportance, I just got my Learner's Permit today. n.n

Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

Todd: that would depend on how Goliath sees Thailog after the sanctuary. Greg said that after he had heard about Thailogs plans for Demona, he stopped thinking of Thailog like a poor creature that could be reedemed.
But he also said that Thailog knew nothing about love, beacuase he never experienced something like that.
Thinking of that one would wonder if he knew what it is hate or evil or goodness.
He is something like a baby with a genius mind, but a baby after all. If Goliath thinks of Thailog in that way its probably that Thailogs death would affected him.

Demon@ - [dot dot dot and where is the donkey??]

I think Goliath would greive over ANY gargoyle dying, clone or real.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

I doubt that anyone here approved of the idea in the Goliath Chronicles of killing Thailog off, but I have found myself thinking a little about how they handled his death-scene, particularly Thailog and Goliath's actions in it: Thailog comments, gloatingly to the last, how much he'd enjoyed causing Goliath grief, and Goliath actually sheds a few tears over Thailog's death.

What I've found myself wondering is: how "true to character" do you think that that moment was? I think that it was believable at least that Thailog would still, even to the end, be regarding his past actions in a decidedly unrepentant manner (a bit like Aaron the Moor, in "Titus Andronicus", when being arrested and sentenced to death at the end of the play, saying that he doesn't regret all the evil things that he did - what he regrets is only that he didn't do more of them).

Would Goliath be grieved over Thailog's passing, were it ever to take place (obviously, under Greg Weisman's helm, not for a very long time)? Despite Thailog's past history with Goliath and his clan, I think that it's possible; Thailog is still his "son", and Goliath certainly (after the initial angry rejection of him, and then learning from Elisa how wrong he'd been to behave like that) made an effort to reach out to him at the end of "Double Jeopardy". (For that matter, he was certainly saddened at Demona's apparent death in "Future Tense", when she'd had even more of a history of hostilities towards Goliath and his clan than Thailog had had so far.) In fact, I find the Goliath-Thailog interaction almost reminiscent of that between King Arthur and Mordred in T. H. White's "The Once and Future King", where Arthur makes effort after effort to reach out to his son and Mordred contemptuously pushes him away every time.

What do the rest of you think about it?

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Just a reminder, www.gargoyles-fans.org still needs some episode summaries. Here's the list: http://www.gargoyles-fans.org/reviews/missing.htm

What's the best way for those of us who don't have a local comic book store to buy issue #2? It still isn't listed on Amazon. Heck, I'm having trouble finding issue #1 on Amazon and slg's website isn't helpfull.

Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Thank you, Matt. It would make a lot of sense for Avalon to send them to New York. :)
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

Darn, I missed the countdown. :\
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

I claim 10th in the name of bee9ef
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

I claim ninth in the name of insane projects.


Spen> Thanks. I never thought of the IP being hidden that way. Also must have never noticed that the mouse arrow turned into a curser at that location.

Siren> "I've seen enough people come in and day something along the lines of 'I had trouble figuring this out because I've never seen a message board like this' or 'I don't really understand how this works'."
Wow. I just can't imagine how the format would be that confusing.
Unless they're online between midnight and 3am ET on Sunday night, they'll see real posts. At that point the "Last Week's Comments" button shouldn't even get scrolled off-screen, except for the occasional times when one of the first 10 posters (like me this week) actually post something other than a number.

Sadistic Cow> I think the Canadian national anthem is great. Much better than ours in the US, aesthetically speaking.
There's really nothing to be scared about with the airport system in the US. I haven't flown very often and have never gotten lost. There are dozens of TV's all around every airport I've been in (which is about 10) that have the exact same info about departures and arrivals. Overhead directions to concourses and baggage handling are everywhere. And if you do get lost, just ask any security or airline personnel, and from my experience they'll be more than happy to help. I'm thinking that as long as you're not bitching about something, they're very courteous. Doesn't matter whether or not they're from the same airline you're flying. The boarding pass, or ticket, will have all the info you'll need.
Outside of Quebec (and maybe waaaaay up north, but I've never been there), there really is not much difference, in my experience (I used to live in a border town), between Canada and the US.

Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury

The Sadistic Cow
It's me and you against the world. So when do we attack?

Makhasu - [aknellthatsummonsthee at yahoo dot com]

5TH!!! This is the first time I have ever done this!!!!
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]


3rd!! :D:D:D:D:D:D
Demon@ - [dot dot dot and where is the donkey??]

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Cold does not bother us..." -Goliath "Reawakening"

Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Humans are such easy prey for a gargoyle!