If there's an explanation in the series, then I'll just have to wait for it. Thanks for not spoiling it. :)

I'm surprised to see others are interested in Dark Ages, too. If I were to order all the spin-offs I'd say my ordering would be:

Dark Ages
Timedancer
Pendragon
Gargoyles 2198
New Olympians
Bad Guys

Not that they are probably even less likely than Season 2 Volume 2. There'd have to be a very good comic run before Disney would consider one of these, I think. But we can always hope.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 11:47:18 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Vaevictis> Just keep watching, eventually you'll see why Alexander will be around til 2198. Wouldn't want to ruin it for you, but there is a good explanation in the series.

As for Spinoffs, in order of how much I'd like to see them to:

Dark Ages
Bad Guys
Pendragon
Timedancer
Gargoyles: 2198
New Olympians

Though, if you ask me in a year that list might change, it has before, but usually Dark Ages is my first pick.

"Metamorphosis" was also my first season 2 episode. "Temptation" was my very first episode.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 11:25:02 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Vaevictus: "Metamorphosis" was the first of the second season episodes that I saw. I was a little surprised that they left us hanging at the end, but that final image of Elisa weeping in the clock tower is basically what hooked me.

As far as Derek buying into Xanatos's performance is concerned, there are some who have an explanation for his behavior, but I'll let them say more if they choose to.

Count me in as another person who's enjoying the reviews. Keep 'em coming.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Teamwork is so overrated." -Thailog
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 11:16:06 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Ah, Magic the Gathering. I had several friends who were really into that game a few years ago. I collected a few of the cards for their artwork.

Siren > I really enjoy your "Hunter's Moon" trailer. You did a great job picking scenes from those episodes, and the music fits very nicely.

Spinoffs > I'd also like to see "Dark Ages" since the medieval parts of the series interest me. "Time Dancer" is another I'd like to see.
Abby
"Boy, the city sure is different when it snows." "Yeah. It's colder." - The Price
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 11:07:01 pm EST from 24.118.226.247

No, it's not a big deal if you misspell my name. I'm just pointing it out. :)

It comes from this: http://www.findmagiccards.com/Cards/LG/Vaevictis_Asmadi.html


Hey everybody, two questions about the spin-offs:

1. Does anybody know how Alexander survives until 2198? If he was born in 1996, he'd be 192 by then. Did he spend time on Avalon?

2. Which spin-offs would you guys most want to see? I'm most interested in Dark Ages.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 10:53:36 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Demon@>None of them are ready yet. I just got a new big program that is making my videos easier to make...but harder at the same time since it has so many more features to play with. My next two videos, one about Demona, Goliath, and Angela and the other able the femme fatales of Gargoyles will be done in 1-2 weeks, I hope at least.
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 10:34:04 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

Jurgen> Thanks, but no, that's not it. I seem to remember someone doing Carrie's little voiceover monologue and talking about how gargoyles and the city affects relationships in NY... though perhaps someone was just writing it in the CR for kicks or something. That would've been years ago though...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 10:23:19 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Matt: It may not really exist. A quick google search turned this up: http://www.gargoyles-fans.org/fanwork/topten/auburn.htm It may be that that's what you're thinking of.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- that's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 9:45:52 pm EST from 71.226.160.29

I think Hyena is the less twisted of the two. She's the more /obviously/ twisted in that she's impulsive, carelessly violent, and not afraid to brag about her violation of social norms (ie her crush on Coyote), etc. but I get the feeling she's doing it as a way of hiding from who and what she is.

Jackal, on the other hand, is the quiet one you have to worry about. Most of the time he's trying to keep a lid on his sister's behaviour because he's the one planning something truly sick and catastrophic and he doesn't want his sister tipping anyone off to it.
Stormy
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 9:42:42 pm EST from 142.167.192.146

Hey Siren, is your new music video ready?
Demon@
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 9:35:29 pm EST from 200.125.112.59

I also copy and paste "Vaevictis Asmadi" each time I use the name. Where does that name come from anyway? By the way, Vaevictis, I'm also really enjoying your episode reviews.

Lynati> YES! That's the site. I was beginning to think it didn't exist anymore. Thanks for finding it for me, oh, and thanks for your screencap site, I have it locked in my favorite sites. Are you going to add any more gargoyle pics soon from the DVD?

Now, if only I can find that Sex in the City/Gargoyles crossover story... assuming it exists and I'm not imagining it...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 9:32:21 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Vaevictis Asmadi, I usually copy and paste your name, but being this isn't set up like a forum and its easy to look back at your name for correct spelling, not everyone copy and pastes names (especially when we might want to copy and paste info for our actual post. So you have to understand that your name isn't very easy to remember how to spell. Its not a common name or word we usually use. Misspellings will happen. People sometimes mispell Siren or confuse me with Siryn, its no big deal.
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 8:57:31 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

*shrug* well, your handle is rather hard to spell and I was too lazy to check it
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 8:38:59 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

Just so you know, there's no letter U in Vaevictis.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 8:12:04 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Matt: Did you ever find that page you were looking for with the Gargoyles Clans? Was it this one? http://www.angelfire.com/rings/katsaris/clans.htm
...when you first brought it up, I thought you meant online fan clans.

*Looks around for Guandalug*
Lynati
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 7:57:16 pm EST from 71.163.27.144

Actually, I thought the animation in Leader of the pack was excellent. Maybe a little different, but good none the less. The only one who looked a little strange was Lex-he looked kind of childish. I thought there was nice animated movement in the ep. And the lighting, particularly in the scene on the ship is really nice.
I used to not particularly like the ep itself, but it has begun to grow on me, I think. All the gargs shine in this ep and each have their own little heroic moments. I like how Bronx is featured as well.

As for Metamorphosis, I do like the episode, but I hate the animation. The characters seem to have very jerky movements (or sometimes don't move at all) and there's a lot off model character moments. Not the series' finest example of animation...oh well.
Vaevictus-You're very perseptive. You're aboslutely right about Derek deceiving himself into thinking that Xanatos is trying to help him and basically ignoring all the clues to the contrary. Keep those thoughts in mind when you watch "The Cage."

and I've stated before, I love your episode rabmlings-it gives us some nice discussion material :)
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 7:51:00 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

Legal isn't the same as ethical, though. My point is that Derek should recognize that Xanatos is still partly responsible (in any case), simply because he started this questionable experiment, but he still won't let himself believe Xanatos is bad.

Xanatos definately reaches a new low here, beyond his Season One behavior. Yet, he was already heading downward in Reawakening.

My thoughts are all discombobulated. I really find it difficult to express myself with this CR format.

The mutates look pretty cool. Not as inherently cool as the gargoyles, of course, but still neat. They're kind of like the cat version of werewolves, but with wings. It is odd that they have garg-like feet, instead of cat paws.
I did find it very hard to tell Fang and Talon apart, though. If I hadn't read spoilers, I'd have been confused on which one was saying "He can keep his cure."

Looking over the memo for this episode, it seems like some intended dialogue was cut -- dialogue that would have made events easier to follow.

"Cross my heart and hope to die" doesn't strike me as a unique or identifying line. We said it as kids. But usually one person said both parts of it, so maybe it is a bit weird after all.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 6:49:44 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

The interesting thing about "Metamorphosis" (for me) is this. When I first saw this episode, I knew perfectly well (from all the episodes preceding it) what Xanatos was like. And yet, I found myself believing him when he behaved as if he wanted to help Derek. I even gave him a mental standing ovation when he refused to cage him, saying, "He's a man, not an animal." And then, of course, when it turned out at the end that Xanatos had set up the whole scheme from the start for the purpose of mutating him.... That was a definite shock for me.

The other big shock (though it was nullified by the end) was when Sevarius was apparently electrocuted by the eels and Xanatos declared him dead. I thought, "They actually killed somebody in a Disney cartoon?" And I was responding that way even though I knew that this wasn't your typical Disney cartoon.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 6:44:40 pm EST from 4.245.21.92

"I can't say for sure whether Xanatos' performance would have convinced me (without spoilers) but it's clear that Derek is still decieving himself. Even if Xanatos didn't approve of human test subjects, he is still responsible for a genetic experiment of very questionable ethics -- especially the bit about creating intelligent creatures. So whether or not he is directly responsible for the mutation, Derek should still be angry at him ... but he's not."
Derek thought that everything was legal. There is a lot of experiments at the moment trying to create machines that will be able to think and feel like a human, or "programmed" how a baby is going to look like whe he borns. And they are all legal, as horrible as they are.
Demon@
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 6:15:57 pm EST from 200.125.112.59

I don't think it has to be either extreme. Brooklyn has been the least mature as far as I've watched, but he hasn't been a "complete idiot" either.

Further thoughts:

The ears didn't bug me so much. Owen often has pointed ears, too. The main thing in the animation that bugged me was that Fang and Claw stand frozen in their cage like statues, and don't move a muscle.

I can't say for sure whether Xanatos' performance would have convinced me (without spoilers) but it's clear that Derek is still decieving himself. Even if Xanatos didn't approve of human test subjects, he is still responsible for a genetic experiment of very questionable ethics -- especially the bit about creating intelligent creatures. So whether or not he is directly responsible for the mutation, Derek should still be angry at him ... but he's not.

Goliath also messes up. I've noticed in a lot of episodes (such as Reawakening) that Goliath has this "battle mode" where he kind of stops thinking clearly or paying attention to his surroundings.. including police and reporters. In this case, he doesn't pay attention when Maggie is clearly afraid of him. And none of the Gargoyles notice Fang and Claw in the cage next to Maggie. If they had stopped in the doorway and taken in the situation more carefully, they might have managed not to frame themselves for busting the "cure."

Overall though, this was a good episode.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 5:40:33 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Broadway may not be a genius, but he's not a complete idiot. Not sure why everything has to be one extreme or the other. Broadway's done some boneheaded things, sure, but so have Brooklyn and Lexington. Of the Trio, he was the one who seemed to be thinking most with his brains (as opposed to another part of his anatomy) when Angela arrived on the scene.

166 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"Have any of you seen any of my movies? Any where I lived to the end?" - Brigitte Bako at G2006
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 5:31:54 pm EST from 70.229.204.117

Metomorphosis has better animation but there were some funky spots. Like Derek having pointed ears right from the start.

I wish I could have watched it before having the ending spoiled. I can't remember if Greg W. talked about it at the con or if I read about it on this site. Oh well. If I didn't know what was going on I'd have been really confused, this was another episode that moved very fast and was hard to follow. Had to watch it twice.

It is interesting that all the Gargoyles assume they have to run out to save Maggie. On the one hand, she looks *just* like a Gargoyle. On the other hand, they don't even discuss it. Brooklyn is clearly horny, but only Broadway even starts to call him on it.

I agree that at the very beginning, before Brooklyn gets tranqed, that Broadway seems uninterested in her. She's not Demona, but she still looks like a Gargoyle. But the look on his face, as he hides after the vans leave, seems to be thoughtful. It must have been after that, that he grabbed the bracelet.

Sevarius behaves like such a kook. Xanatos is right -- he played it up too much, he'd have been more believable if he wasn't so rediculous. Not that Derek noticed.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 5:27:28 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Harvester : Well, in my (admittedly limited) experience with animation production, I'd say that one reason was the excessive amount of secondary studios listed in the end credits. I've always been of the opinion that unless you're animating a major multi-parter, less is usually more.

Actually, the entire first week of the second season generally had rather sub-par animation. Most of it can be attributed to the fact that someone had the bright idea of having 'Sunwoo week on Gargoyles'. Not as bad an idea as 'Kennedy week on Aladdin', but still not a particularly good move.
Spen
"Never put off 'til tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow" - Mark Twain
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 4:41:20 pm EST from 216.248.119.208

Vaevictus: Unfortunately, I missed this episode when it first aired on Labor Day 1995. I saw "Eye of the Beholder" first. Which I'm a little disappointed in, because looking back at "Leader of the Pack," the entire thing is a setup for the ending. The whole fight with the Pack never mattered, at least not to Xanatos.

I do agree that the animation was a little lacking at some spots. Which is a shame, because there's some good sequences in it, such as Bronx chewing off half of the Coyote robot's face. I think there's a reason the animation was less than lackluster. Someone in here more learned than I could probably tell you.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Teamwork is so overrated." -Thailog
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 4:05:28 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

I would like to say that the majority of diagnosed sociopaths and psychopaths live normal lives and don't commit any crimes. It's only the violent ones that we hear about, though.

I'm starting the Season Two DVD today. I don't like the menus on this disk as much as on Season One. Oh well.

I just watched Leader of the Pack, and I really didn't like it. The animation was sub-par, and most of the episode was taken up by a generic superhero-sort-of fight that I found boring. Also, Coyote's confusion ray weapon seems too Batman-ish. Really an "eh" episode.

I'm looking farward to Metomorphosis, though. I'm pretty sure its going to be good.

One thing I've noticed, is that many of the seemingly random events were clustered around Xanatos' ongoing attempt to "replace" the Gargoyles. Robots, clones, mutates, Coldstone, and even the Pack, are supposed to replace the clan after Awakening.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 3:27:00 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Greg Weisman said in his Grief ramble...
Hyena is a psychopath.
Jackal is a socipath.

Though both terms are often inter-mingled, they do have some differences.

Sociopathy is chiefly characterized by something wrong with the person's conscience. They either don't have one, it's full of holes like Swiss cheese, or they are somehow able to completely neutralize or negate any sense of conscience or future time perspective. Sociopaths only care about fulfilling their own needs and desires - selfishness and egocentricity to the extreme. Everything and everybody else is mentally twisted around in their minds as objects to be used in fulfilling their own needs and desires. Sociopaths Commons are characterized mostly by their lack of conscience; the alienated by their inability to love or be loved; aggressives by a consistent sadistic streak; and dyssocials by an ability to abide by gang rules, as long as those rules are the wrong rules.
List of Common Sociopathic Traits:
Egocentricity; Callousness; Impulsivity; Conscience defect; Exaggerated sexuality; Excessive boasting; Risk taking; Inability to resist temptation; Antagonistic, deprecating attitude toward the opposite sex; Lack of interest in bonding with a mate

Psychopathy is a concept subject to much debate, but is usually defined as a constellation of affective, interpersonal, and behavioral characteristics including egocentricity; impulsivity; irresponsibility; shallow emotions; lack of empathy, guilt, or remorse; pathological lying; manipulativeness; and the persistent violation of social norms and expectations. The crimes of psychopaths are usually stone-cold, remorseless killings for no apparent reason. They cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please without the slightest sense of guilt or regret. In many ways, they are natural-born intraspecies predators who satisfy their lust for power and control by charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence. Psychopaths love to intellectualize in treatment with their half-baked understanding of rules. Like the Star Trek character, Spock, their reasoning cannot handle any mix of cognition and emotion. They are calculating predators who, when trapped, will attempt escape, create a nuisance and danger to staff, be a disruptive influence on other patients or inmates, and fake symptoms to get transferred, bouncing back and forth between institutions.
List of Common Psychopathic Traits:
Glib and superficial charm; Grandiose sense of self-worth; Need for stimulation; Pathological lying; Conning and manipulativeness; Lack of remorse or guilt; Shallow affect; Callousness and lack of empathy; Parasitic lifestyle; Poor behavioral controls; Promiscuous sexual behavior; Early behavior problems; Lack of realistic, long-term goals; Impulsivity; Irresponsibility; Failure to accept responsibility for own actions; Many short-term marital relationships; Juvenile delinquency; Revocation of conditional release; Criminal versatility

All of that makes Hyena and Jackal my favorite Pack members. They just seem the most interesting to me. And mysterious. Like I said, I'd love to get some background on them. And hope to see it in the comic.
Sorry for the long post.
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 1:57:27 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

I don't have VHS tapes, so I had to download the missing episodes. I will get around to watching them, when I finish the DVD episodes. I managed to move them all to my PC and that computer is able to run them. Although it will be really nice to be able to fast farward, rewind, and pause during episodes, I'm not entirely thrilled with the picture quality compared to the DVDs. Here's hoping they come out (legally) on disk eventually.

It was an understatement because.. I'm trying not to be overly critical! I always notice character flaws because I'm just a pessimistic, detail-oriented critic. But I don't hate or dislike characters just because they have flaws, and I sure don't wish they were inhumanly flawless. Even some of the villains are funny... like Xanatos and Hyena.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 1:11:17 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

i think she would.
Demon@
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 9:55:13 am EST from 200.125.112.59

Antiyonder: If Hyena got the chance, would she destroy all life on the planet?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Teamwork is so overrated." -Thailog
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 9:35:41 am EST from 71.62.204.109

First of all, please ignore the two posts I made prior to this one. I kept leaving the wrong name in the responses. I promise it won't happen again.

Harvester of Eyes: I'd have to say that Jackal is probably the more psychotic of the two. He usually contains it until certain moments, but when we do see it, it isn't pretty. Although, I don't know if you have any VHS tapes or not, because the episodes that really display just how diseased Jackal's mind is both come after "Kingdom."

Except, that Greg has stated that Jackal can force himself to calm down, whereas Hyena cannot calm herself down. Jackal has to do it.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 7:22:17 am EST from 74.61.186.169

Harvester of Eyes: I'd have to say that Jackal is probably the more psychotic of the two. He usually contains it until certain moments, but when we do see it, it isn't pretty. Although, I don't know if you have any VHS tapes or not, because the episodes that really display just how diseased Jackal's mind is both come after "Kingdom."
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 4:00:29 am EST from 74.61.186.169

Vaevictus >I'd have to say that Jackal is probably the more psychotic of the two. He usually contains it until certain moments, but when we do see it, it isn't pretty. Although, I don't know if you have any VHS tapes or not, because the episodes that really display just how diseased Jackal's mind is both come after "Kingdom."

Except, that Greg has stated that Jackal can force himself to calm down, whereas Hyena cannot calm herself down. Jackal has to do it.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 2:41:33 am EST from 74.61.186.169

Vaevictus: I'd have to say that Jackal is probably the more psychotic of the two. He usually contains it until certain moments, but when we do see it, it isn't pretty. Although, I don't know if you have any VHS tapes or not, because the episodes that really display just how diseased Jackal's mind is both come after "Kingdom."
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"You won't believe me now, but there's been some illumination. They finally stopped to realize they fucked the operation." -The only band that really matters.
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 1:44:21 am EST from 71.62.204.109

"Hyena seems kind of... unstable. I mean, a guy asks for an autograph and she pulls a knife on him."

Now there's an understatement. I'd say downright psychotic. I think at that point she was just itching for some action and couldn't restrain herself any longer.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2007 1:21:27 am EST from 68.58.219.175

I love Hyena....I dunno what it is with me and psychotic female villians...as Harley Quinn is another favorite of mine and has a bit in common with Hyena. I had always hoped we'd find out more about her and Jackal. I always found some morbid amusment in wondering what it was like growing up in their home. But out of all the Pack, we know the least amount about them.
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Sat, Jan 6, 2007 11:41:22 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

hahaha yeah the part of the locker room is one of the most funny of all gargoyles
Demon@
posted @ Sat, Jan 6, 2007 10:42:36 pm EST from 200.125.112.59

So I watched Her Brother's Keeper and Reawakening again, more carefully this time.

Hyena seems kind of... unstable. I mean, a guy asks for an autograph and she pulls a knife on him.

I really like Xanatos' lines in the Frankenstein scene.

I still think Derek is being very stubborn, but Elisa didn't seem to use the best tactics to convince him, either. She even went and embarrassed him in the locker room.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sat, Jan 6, 2007 9:42:41 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Yeah, really. Broadway is a freakin' genius!!

lol
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sat, Jan 6, 2007 1:24:03 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

<Well, not in Silver Falcon. He found Elisa entirely on his own, and frankly, I'm not sure I would have figured that clue out on my own. I'm pretty sure I didn't the first time I saw it, when I was a child, so I don't see him as child-like in his thinking.>

Which becomes even more impressive when you consider that it was only a few episodes prior that Broadway decided to start learning to read.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Do I lie to myself to be happy? In your case, Teddy, yes I will." -Leonard ("Memento")
posted @ Sat, Jan 6, 2007 1:03:22 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Really ALL the Gargoyles started out child-like when they were transported to the states (and through time kinda). TV, guns, bombs, helicopters, movies, food...they all reacted to it much as any child would.
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Sat, Jan 6, 2007 12:43:12 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

"'m focusing on Broadway thinking he knows what he's doing because he saw a bunch of movies and TV shows."

But he was right. He figured out that Elisa was undercover based on movies and TV shows. At least, I assume that's how he knew what undercover meant.

"It doesn't mean Broadway is incompetent; just that he often needs someone else to do the thinking. Maybe that's where Angela comes in."

Well, not in Silver Falcon. He found Elisa entirely on his own, and frankly, I'm not sure I would have figured that clue out on my own. I'm pretty sure I didn't the first time I saw it, when I was a child, so I don't see him as child-like in his thinking.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- that's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Sat, Jan 6, 2007 12:14:03 pm EST from 71.226.160.29

Perhaps you are confusing how Broadway often thinks with his heart more than Brook or Lex with being "child-like". As others have said, I find Broadway to be quite mature, esspecially as the series progresses. I think the Trio all started out very child-like, but all of them have grown up a bit.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sat, Jan 6, 2007 12:00:52 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Playing "detective">>
I wasn't talking about Goliath "saving" Elisa.
I'm focusing on Broadway thinking he knows what he's doing because he saw a bunch of movies and TV shows.

Anyway, I thought it was obvious that Broadway was rather child-like. I'm surprised at the reaction here.
It doesn't mean Broadway is incompetent; just that he often needs someone else to do the thinking. Maybe that's where Angela comes in.
JJ Gregarius
posted @ Sat, Jan 6, 2007 11:50:31 am EST from 12.78.56.194

Vaevictus: Yeah, the way that entire cemetery fight was edited was gorgeous. I especially liked Demona's wings unfurling behind the angel statue (ironic, given what Goliath's term of endearment had been).
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Do I lie to myself to be happy? In your case, Teddy, yes I will." -Leonard ("Memento")
posted @ Sat, Jan 6, 2007 11:42:47 am EST from 71.62.204.109

Vaevictis Asmadi: just a stupid joke, ignore it hhehehehe
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Sat, Jan 6, 2007 9:28:25 am EST from 200.114.213.102

BISHANSKY - Yes, that was a fun update (though I wonder why you were calling it "nice" and "crappy" at the same time; aren't those two adjectives mutually exclusive?).

I wonder how long Sarah Brown will stay one of the Quarrymen. I don't see her as likely to be going on "direct confrontation" missions as Banquo and Fleance, so I doubt that she'll be exposed any time soon to Castaway's real nature the way that Vinnie was. (And, as I've said before, I don't want to see the Quarrymen lose their "ordinary citizen" element for a long time. It's crucial, in my opinion, to their tone as "humans fear what they do not understand".)

And I also think that it's neat, in general, that Greg's been helping out with the Gargoyles Wiki.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Jan 6, 2007 7:27:39 am EST from 4.244.214.212

Demon@ > Wha?

I read Greg's rambles up through Long Way to Morning. They're really nice, make me think. I can't wait till I start on Season Two and all these little plot threads start coming together and feeling less random.
I often wonder how humans would react to gargoyle statues suddenly appearing where there were none before. Like the Jogger, I guess. But on random places like hospital rooftops.
The cemetary takes the cake, though. What would anyone think if they came into a cemetary, to pay respects perhaps, and came across a lot of broken statues, and then this rediculous statue of two monsters attacking each other -- and one is armed with a sword, and the other is using a futuristic laser rifle as a club. O.O I'd love to see a Jogger-esque cameo for that one.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sat, Jan 6, 2007 12:13:07 am EST from 209.162.56.94

Great chapter the last one of the barracuda, awesome job.
As for Broadway been stupid... What if the guy knows to take the best out of a bad situation. He may play the detective game at times, but he knows when to get serious i.e just when the bomb on Matt´s apparment is about to explode, or when the roof fall into them when Elisa is discover.
They all have their moments of stupidity.
Malcom taught Katherine that the gargoyles were the boogyman. The boogyman takes the kids that misbehave. Maybe little katherine was awake late the previous night and walking around the castle when she turn around a corner and saw...King Malcom "playing" with servant Florela.
She knew Daddy did something wrong and thats why she blamed Hudson for what had happened. O.o I gotta stop drinking now...
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Sat, Jan 6, 2007 12:05:20 am EST from 200.114.213.102

Siren: I was just about to say that- Goliath's the one who jumped in to "save" Elisa during "Protection," and Broadway's the one who figured out what was really going on. And, sure, he was having some fun playing detective in "Silver Falcon," but he took it seriously, too. "Dracon! (Eyes glowing) Oh, I hate that guy!" Likewise, he was the one to warn Elisa not to go it alone like Matt did.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- that's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 11:58:58 pm EST from 71.226.160.29

About Broadway almost messing up Elisa's undercover operation....So did Goliath....afterall...he was the LEADER. *rolls eyes*
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 11:45:45 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

Harvester>> Of course.
Thing is, Broadway is a little lucky that his fantasy didn't mess things up. Same deal when Broadway almost messed up Elisa's undercover investigation of Dracon.
JJ Gregarius
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 11:39:01 pm EST from 12.78.59.253

JJ: In "The Silver Falcon," I think that Broadway could still sense the urgency in what was happening. He was the one who told Elisa that Matt had been operating solo when he disappeared. Sure, part of him was playing the detective fantasy, but he was still concerned for Elisa.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"If I were a liar, yes, and you were a cheat, there would be too many places where we all could meet." -Ian Anderson
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 11:28:24 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

JJ> O.O

O.o

o.O

... dude... no.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 11:10:41 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

A lot of people responding to me making interesting points. Too bad it doesn't have much to do with what I actually said. :-/
I'm sorry that I'm not responding to you; I'm not quite sure how.

Blaise, however, is one of the few people who understands what I'm getting at, AFAIK.
On that note:
Blaise said<<
And at the Clocktower, it's Broadway mainly chiding Brooklyn for his obvious...obliviousness, shall we say.
>>
I see. Thing is, I can't connect the "She needed our help/...didn't want our help" exchange to that the way most of the board does.
In fact, to me that betrays a lack of interest on Broadway's part; I can't get around that .
Maybe I'm too literal.

This is probably as far as this discussion can go.
***
I've thought about why I dislike Broadway. There are signs of lack of curiosity and/or excessive frustration (remember his response to the helicopter game? Or his response to reading), and signs of lack of mental development (playing detective while hunting down Dracon's goons, as if he didn't understand the difference between reality and fiction -- even in the medieval era they had stories, after all.).

Then it hit me; that doesn't make him a bad character.

I dislike him because so many people, it seems, are afraid to acknowledge that Broadway is a overgrown child. (Even more so than the rest of the trio, who are teenagers, warts and all.)

Broadway's mental problems are a part of his character, as much as Brooklyn's mating drive is a part of his. Don't deny him this.

I think I could like him, if I keep this in mind.
JJ Gregarius
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 11:06:18 pm EST from 12.78.61.21

Greg B: <Jesus was an alien from another planet?> That explains quite a bit. I guess of the two most popular theories concerning alien visitors, the one about a technologically advanced race (at least advanced enough to travel between the stars) being peaceful held true. Which is good, since I doubt even Roman military tactics could prevail against heat rays. Do you think Jesus was taken up by the same spaceship that abducted Elijah? ( ;

*checks the links*

I'm a bit surprised Billy and Susan's mother would choose to keep that particular name. But then again, she doesn't strike me as the kind of person who would ever watch "Reservoir Dogs" (shit can have an e on it sometimes). ( ;

Vaevictus: This is drawing a little from what Blaise said about "Enter Macbeth." I've always looked upon Goliath's behavior in Macbeth's house as him venting off a great deal of anger, because far in the back of his mind, he knew Elisa was right about the castle being unsafe, but he's stubborn as hell (plus, as he said, they'd be losing their final tie to something familiar). Macbeth was giving him an excuse to really let it out (as we see when he's pulling down walls and tearing through steel doors like tissue paper). So it wouldn't surprise me that he would continue to pursue Macbeth even after Macbeth lost interest. That maniacal laugh really came out of left field (remember that laugh, by the way. Hint, hint).
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"If I were a liar, yes, and you were a cheat, there would be too many places where we all could meet." -Ian Anderson
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 10:41:38 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Because it amuses me:

The GargWiki had a nice and crappy update tonight. Greg Weisman was nice enough to provide me with full names for the Billy and Susan family.

Billy's Mom's full name is Sarah Browne... she kept her maiden name.
Billy and Susan's last name is Greene.
Dad is still nameless... save his last name being Greene.

Browne and Greene... no wonder she wears a hood now.

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Browne%2C_Sarah
http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Greene%2C_Billy
http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Greene%2C_Susan
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 10:02:17 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

*nods* You're welcome, Greg!

Todd, you raise an interesting point. I don't know who Luach is, but you're right about Malcom and the Captain.

If you think about it, the Captain didn't really betray the Gargoyles. He tricked them, and he didn't risk his life to save them from Hakon, but the people he truly betrayed were the Humans, and he betrayed them on behalf of the Gargoyles.
But ironically, his betrayal of the Humans cost the Gargoyles far more -- both because he and Demona lied to Goliath, and because once they broke the trust, the alliance between the Gargs and Humans, the Gargoyles were left without daytime protection. In essence, the Gargoyles suffered the very betrayal that the Captain and Demona intended for the Humans.

In a sense perhaps the Captain did betray Goliath -- he betrayed his trust, and his respect, by tricking him and going over his head, doing foolish things on his behalf. But he betrayed the Humans in a more direct way.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 8:04:00 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Ed & V.A. - Thanks. Much appreciated
Greg Weisman
Computers - can't live with 'em. Can't live without 'em.
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 7:57:02 pm EST from 64.14.248.62

Hmmm Asatira, since I haven't seen Metamorphosis or The Cage, I don't have as much information.
Of course Elisa is trying to protect her brother. And she is right about Xanatos. But I was trying to look at how Derek probably sees it.
Goliath is very stubborn too. As I've said, I see him as clinging to traditions and to the castle as a source of stability in a life that is turning topsy-turvy. He even says as much in Enter Macbeth. But in the end he does see that Elisa, Hudson, and Broadway are right.
I'm not really sure who my favorite Garg character is. I still think Brooklyn is the most handsome, but he seems rather immature. The scene in the cage in Enter Macbeth was funny, but repeatedly shocking himself wasn't mature of him. Sure, Lexington is the genius, but Brooklyn expects him to solve all the problems. But I guess none of the Trio are very mature yet, and none have been developed much in Season One.
I like Goliath a lot. He seems blind to a lot of things, but he's also a very honorable guy. I like Broadway, too. He seems the most thoughtful of the trio. In The Edge, his approach to fighting the robots seemed the most strategic.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 7:53:07 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Vaevictis Asmadi> I'm looking at Derek from the long term as well as "Brother's Keeper." In the long term, Derek has proven to be both stubborn, proud, and quick to anger, with the last one used at least twice against him. That's something I never liked about him, but it is refreshing to see. In regards to the episode, I see both Derek and Elisa as being stubborn, and both for valid reasons as they saw it. For Derek, pretty much what Blaise said below; for Elisa, she wanted to protect her brother.
Asatira
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 7:35:33 pm EST from 66.191.158.77

The talk about Prince Malcolm and Princess Katharine here reminds me of one thing that I've found particularly intriguing: the pro-gargoyle humans help bring about the Wyvern Masacre as much as the anti-gargoyle humans do - to be precise, Prince Malcolm and the Captain of the Guard, the two most prominent pro-gargoyle humans. Malcolm unwittingly teaches Katharine to hate and fear gargoyles by using them as bogeymen. The Captain turns over the castle to the Vikings. (Come to think of it, the 1057 gargoyle massacre also comes about partly because of the actions of pre-gargoyle humans: Luach's outburst on behalf of Demona and her clan leads to Macbeth rebuking him for his youthful rashness, which leads in turn to Demona believing that he's going to betray her to Canmore.) This is a touch that I like; it gives the human-gargoyle conflict extra complexity.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 7:17:55 pm EST from 4.245.22.167

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/

I assume this is the current link...?
Ed
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 6:54:33 pm EST from 213.187.39.245

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Main_Page
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 6:54:16 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Help! Quick! I need the link to the garg wiki!

Thanks!
Greg Weisman
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 6:49:23 pm EST from 64.14.248.62

SO... I watched Long Way to Morning again, and this time I didn't watch 4 more episodes afterwards. Such a rich episode... it needs time to sit in my mind before I watch another one. Although the action and tension is constant through most of it, the focus really seems to be more on character development.

The concepts of reliability and leadership run throughout this episode. From Goliath saying he needs someone reliable -- still Hudson, not the future second -- to Hudson's feelings of inadequacy, and Demona's desire to take over. It was an interesting thread to weave between the two times. And Demona's behavior reminded me of Goliath's comments in Hyppolyta: "She wanted this for me, and in hindsight, I think she also wanted it for herself."

Her development here is interesting. She found out where Elisa lives... I wonder how she did it, although there are all sorts of methods for stalking people, she might find it more difficult since she doesn't have a human form yet. Anyway, she could probably attack Elisa and hurt her with her claws, maybe even kill her, but instead she poisons her. Later, she could have raked the storage room with lasers. But she would rather lure Goliath to a trap, and later to prolong his painful death, and his suffering over Elisa. She isn't interested in killing Elisa or Goliath quickly, she seems to be take her time to make them suffer.

I also noticed that although Demona knows Hudson's name and uses it once, mostly she calls him "old soldier," like he was called back in the 10th century.

The animation is nice, too. Demona's face looked weird in some scenes, but Goliath and Hudson looked pretty good. I especially noticed how Goliath's face contrasts with how he looks in other episodes. In 1996, you can really see from his face that he is in pain. And in the flashbacks, he looks younger. It's nice that the animators took the time to work in those subtle differences. I also like the expressions on Hudson's face. He's a likeable old guy.

Blaise > I think saying Derek is being hubristic is perhaps a bit too much. He's being stubborn, but I can see where he's coming from, too. Xanatos praises his flying skills, but Elisa is so focused on Xanatos, that she doesn't even seem (at least, to him) to notice. From his point of view, I think she seems obsessed with this Xanatos guy for no sensible reason.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 5:35:34 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

I'm just debating, I was not trying to insult you or anything. You posted your thoughts, and I posted mine. I was not coming down on you, I was not belittling you.

I know some times I can be abrasive, but there was nothing abrasive in what I posted at all. It's a debate on a message board. Not even an arguement. Just a debate.

And I am not bashing what you read, as I said, I love Tolkien. I love "Lord of the Rings". But, I am allowed to be critical of him and any other writer. Greg Weisman is a friend of mine, and I can and have been critical of some of his work.

If I came off as attacking you, I apologise... but seriously, I wasn't.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 5:19:36 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Hey Greg, lay off me. I never said I expect perfect characters. I'm just good at saying what I see. There's certainly no need to start insulting me or my choice of reading. Leave me alone.

Of course little girls don't think logically. Where did I say I expect her to? I'm just pointing out what I see. She certainly acts more maturely when she's an adult, as I'd expect.


I was going to post more thoughts about the episodes, but if you are going to jump down my throat then I should stop.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 4:55:08 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

VINNIE> "Well technically Superman has a god complex. The need to be a savior to the entire world, not to mention that his origin ripped off straight from the bible."

Jesus was an alien from another planet?

Hmm... Jesus Christ is a dick... dot com.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Uncle Junior and I, we had our problems with the Business. But I never should have razzed him about eating pussy. This whole war could have been averted. Cunnilingus and psychiatry brought us to this. " - Tony Soprano
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 3:58:30 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Greg Bishansky: <and that makes him work... contrast that to the other dullest character in fiction, Superman.>

Well technically Superman has a god complex. The need to be a savior to the entire world, not to mention that his origin ripped off straight from the bible.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 3:41:26 pm EST from 69.54.209.41

Vaevictus> Again, you're expecting logic and rational thinking from an eight year old girl. Have you ever met an eight year old? They're all idiots.

I get the feeling from reading your posts, and this is just a feeling, but you have very high expectations for these characters. I prefer realistic characters to perfect little heroes myself.

You mentioned that Tolkien is your favorite writer before. I love Tolkien too, but the guy couldn't write characters (especially women) to save his life. Faramir is the most unrealistic character in the history of all fiction... no one, and I mean no one, is that good, that pure, that uncorrupt. He's not just the most unrealistic character in the history of all fiction, he's also the dullest. But, I guess Tolkien was writing archetypes and not characters, which is fine, he was creating an epic in the style of ancient myths.

But, I prefer characters to archetypes. I like well rounded, flawed characters. I always have. They are more intriguing. Goliath appears to be a great hero and leader, but he's flawed, damaged in a way, makes mistakes, doesn't always do the right thing... and that makes him work... contrast that to the other dullest character in fiction, Superman.

Does all this make me a cynic? Maybe. Of course, if I were to list my favorite fictional characters, we could probably say a lot about me:

Demona, David Xanatos, Tony Soprano, Batman, Michael Corleone, Jimmy Conway, Batman, Spike Spiegel, Faye Valentine, Brooklyn, Lexington, John Sheridan, Malcolm Reynolds, Dr. Hannibal Lecter, Tamora of the Goths, Richard III, Iago, Beatrix Kiddo, Lucifer Morningstar (Neil Gaiman's version), Magneto, Guts, Griffith... god this could go on for a long time.

What does my selection say about me? I don't know. Maybe a cynical outlook on humanity as a whole.

But, in a way it ties into what I was saying to JJ about Broadway. I think you're holding some of these characters to impossibly high standards given the situation... Katharine was just a child, and it's her father's fault she was blaming Hudson. Katharine's behavior as an adult is another story.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Uncle Junior and I, we had our problems with the Business. But I never should have razzed him about eating pussy. This whole war could have been averted. Cunnilingus and psychiatry brought us to this. " - Tony Soprano
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 3:06:40 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Vaevictis> I think Katharine continued to be pissed at Hudson not because she thinks HE poisoned Malcolm, but because he did nothing to stop it.

"How did the Trio get on top of the helicopter cockpit without the rotors chewing them up?"
- I've always wondered that too, but I figured they kinda dized and swooped up from below.

Also with this whole Broadway topic, keep in mind Brook was not the second-in-command yet though he may have been the de facto leader of the Trio.

On a side note, does anyone know where I can find that Gargoyles - Sex in the City crossover fanfic? Or am I just thinking that existed, I swore someone mentioned it in here before...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 2:21:46 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I'm quite aware that Malcom used the Gargoyles as bogeymen. I did watch the episode, after all. But when Malcom is lying in bed, and the Magus has just explained that the Archmage attacked Malcom and poisoned him, Katherine still insists that Hudson did it.

I think that Broadway and Lexington both showed quite believable naivete about the modern world. Blaise is right though, that Brooklyn's mistake was worse. He lied in order to bring Goliath to where Demona was, which I think is the worst part about what he did. Stealing the Grimorum wasn't nearly as bad.

I have enjoyed the humor bits in the series. I think it is kind of funny how Hudson has become so interested in the TV. His gripe about "TV, movies, and video games" was pretty funny. His comment about movies is funny, too ("Why should I go out to see a movie that will probably be on cable soon anyway?")

I have to admit that it is a good thing that some things were spoiled for me. If I didn't already know that all these bizarre plot twists would be followed up on and drawn together in Season Two, I might have grown unhappy with the seeming randomness of Season One. Maybe I'm not as much of a fan as you guys, maybe its just that this website has gotten all my expectations up, I don't know. I still like the show and think its awesome. But it does feel somewhat random to me. I can tell that it was aimed for kids, although there is plenty for an adult to enjoy as well.

I don't have anything to add to the Broadway discussion, but Metomorphosis is coming up soon so maybe I will later.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 2:05:30 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

****Mist seeps into the Room and coalesces into a shivering Blaise.**** Hi all. Just a bit cold right now--can barely feel my fingers. Maybe typing will fix that.
Be forewarned--this is a LONG one.

VAEVICTIS ASMADI> It is so nice to get a (more-or-less) fresh viewpoint on the episodes, again. Just a couple of responses:
--Actually, as soon as Macbeth found out that Demona "wouldn't lift a talon" to save the clan, he tried to run. GOLIATH, however, wasn't about to let this guy who caused him so much grief escape, so HE continued the fight. From there it was just two ancient warriors wailing on each other.
--As for Katharine's blaming Hudson for the Archmage's actions...well, she's 8 years old, and her father has been using gargoyles as bogeymen to keep her in line. "Hush now, Katharine, the gargoyles will get you if you don't behave." To an 8-year-old that translates as, "Set one toe out of line, and the vicious gargoyles will gobble you up alive--feet first!" So basically, her father (without intending to or realizing he was doing it) taught Katharine to fear, hate, and in general think the worst about gargoyles.
--I rather like Coldstone's asymmetrical look. :-) Xanatos and Demona probably couldn't find the other horn, and Xanatos just didn't think a metal twin was necessary.
--Yeah, Derek is stubborn all right. Not only does he want to live his own life (out of the shadow of his Dad and big sis), but he also wants to prove (to himself as much as anyone else) that a) Xanatos is not the villain his sis makes him out to be, and b) even if he is, Derek can handle it. It's hubris.

SIREN> RE: Brooklyn "getting knocked out."
Maybe that's a way to even the scales for "Awakening" Part 5, in which both Broadway and Lexington get knocked out during the Steel Clan battle, but Brooklyn doesn't, and even helps Goliath push a wall onto the last robot.
Or not. ;-)

BROADWAY AND THE "MAGGIE FACTOR"> I don't think J.J.'s objections stem from Broadway's actions so much as from Broadway's apparent attitude.
I mean, Broadway doesn't give an outward show of any interest, curiosity or concern with regards to Maggie. HOWEVER, just because he doesn't show it, doesn't mean it's not there. I got the impression that the first thing he did when they got back to the Clocktower was give a full report--and a major reason for that would be to clue the rest of the gang in on the fact that there's a new "winged-being" in town. And as others have pointed out, he did bring in the bracelet.
As for his attitude, to me, it's not a disinterest in this new mystery, but rather a disdain for Brooklyn's reaction to it. In the alley, Broadway's response of "If you say so" to Brooklyn's insistence on rescuing Maggie is his way of saying, "Well, we've got about a one-percent chance, but you're the boss." And at the Clocktower, it's Broadway mainly chiding Brooklyn for his obvious...obliviousness, shall we say.

A THOUGHT I'VE HAD> A while back I started pondering about the original "Trio-triptych" ("Thrill of the Hunt", "Temptation", "Deadly Force"). Each member had his own "fall-from-grace," but to me each scenario is unique.
Broadway's has a tendency to stand out the most. Undoubtedly this can be attributed to its very impact (Elisa getting shot and all), but also, I think, the superficial similarities between Brooklyn's and Lexington's adventures are a contributing factor. But does this make Broadway's "fall" the worst?
Broadway's definitely had the most immediate damage--Elisa almost died and was still incapacitated for some time. It also took Goliath almost killing someone (who was a crook, but innocent of the thing Goliath was going to kill him for) for Broadway to admit his guilt to someone else. Before then...well Broadway was contending for the "angriest gargoyle" category. I still can't get over how he holds up Glasses BY HIS HEAD!
However, the other two could be said to have had more serious effects in the long term. Lexington's "fall" brought the clan to the attention of The Pack, and Brooklyn's resulted in Demona grabbing a handful of spells from the Grimorum (which she used to make Coldstone, turn the city to stone, etc.).
Even in this, however, there are differences. Lexington made an innocent assumption that the Pack were what they seemed to be--heroes. And he was right about looking for friends and allies--he just happened to find the wrong ones this time. And on top of all that, Xanatos orchestrated the whole thing. I suppose what I'm saying is that Lexington's "innocence" (or naivete, what have you) is in some ways similar to Broadway's (playing with a gun like in the movie). In fact, Lexington's own part in the disaster around him is quite possibly the most innocent of all.
Brooklyn, however, actually made a conscious betrayal. He swallowed Demona's rather bleak summation of their situation, and basically went behind his leader's back. If a lie by omission is still a lie, then Brooklyn lied, and then he stole the Grimorum, gave it to Demona, and lured Goliath under false pretenses to someplace Demona could cast a spell on Goliath--a trap, in other words (granted, Brooklyn thought it would be a different spell, but still...). He did all this, with the best of intentions, sure...so did Demona. Despite this, however, Brooklyn doesn't try to shift the blame; he accepts full responsibility for his own culpability in the situation ("This is all my fault...if I hadn't let Demona talk me into stealing the Grimorum..."). In a way, Brooklyn shows a great deal of maturity here.
And now I'm just rambling. Time to stop.

I think I've taken up enough space for now. Until next time, farewell. ****Blaise turns to leave, but sneezes before he can take another step. It is a very BIG sneeze. In fact, he sneezes himself clear out through the wall on the other side of the Room.****
Blaise
"Well, it's nothing very special. Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."--Monty Python's Meaning of Life
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 1:29:56 pm EST from 4.233.121.168

Sounds to me like you expect perfection from the characters.

Katharine is easy to explain. Her father would use stories about gargoyles to frighten her into behaving herself. They were his friends sure, but he used them as a boogeyman without realising the effect it was having on her. Also, she didn't actually see the attack, she just ran out and saw her father lying there dying with Hudson standing over him.

Plus, she is, you know, eight years old... little things like logic and critical thinking aren't usually part of how eight year olds operate.

As for Coldstone... he's supposed to be kinda horrific looking. I think Xanatos and Demona worked with what they had.

"*How did the Trio get on top of the helicopter cockpit without the rotors chewing them up?"

Okay... three words: It's a cartoon.

"*Macbeth is a real jerk. Although he finds out Demona doesn't care about Goliath, he still tries to kill him... for spite?"

As I recall, Macbeth just threw down his torch and ran off, only for Goliath to lunge at him. Neither one of them tried to open up a dialogue at this point.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Uncle Junior and I, we had our problems with the Business. But I never should have razzed him about eating pussy. This whole war could have been averted. Cunnilingus and psychiatry brought us to this. " - Tony Soprano
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 1:05:54 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Sorry, forgot to add,

Derek is so stubborn! Sure Xanatos is sneakily manipulating him about the Gargs, and sure he wants to be independent from his big sister, but why can't he just give her a chance to say something? Of course with hindsight, I know what's going to happen to him.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 11:44:34 am EST from 209.162.56.94

Yay, thanks Todd!

I finished Season One last night, but I watched the episodes all in a row and they kind of blurred together in my mind. I think I need to re-watch them.

Don't have much to say, um...

*Macbeth is a real jerk. Although he finds out Demona doesn't care about Goliath, he still tries to kill him... for spite?
*Katherine is pretty unpleasant, too. Scared or not, why should she irrationally blame Hudson for the Archmage's action?
*Woah, Coldstone is ugly! He's so asymetrical. Just giving him two horns instead of one would have greatly improved his appearance. I wonder if Demona and Xanatos made him so ugly deliberately? Yippee for zomborgs.
*How did the Trio get on top of the helicopter cockpit without the rotors chewing them up?
*The Gargoyles really aren't being the least bit careful about letting Humans see them, and in a bad light too. When they're surrounded by police and cameras, maybe they should be more careful about how they act.
*I'm really loving how the Gargoyles move. Some of the animation is pretty nice, they even make Goliath's toes move around when he walks. I've always really liked the way Gargs walk, since I first saw the show as a kid.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 11:39:11 am EST from 209.162.56.94

This is a very interesting topic, I don't think we've ever talked about it before.

Anyway, another thing to consider is that Broadway was probably doing a lot more to help Maggie out than Brook was. If Brooklyn had had his way they would've ended up in a holding cell and the rest of the clan would've had no idea what became of them. Thanks to Broadway, they both got home safely AND Broadway had the clues to Maggie's whereabouts. I think that after Brook got darted Broadway realized this wasn't a battle they were going to win and made a quick choice to save Brooklyn and help Maggie later. Brooklyn wanted to have a make-out session behind that dumpster, but Broadway is the one who cared enough to both protect his brother and bring the clan in on it with a plan. Broadway was clearly using his head, Brooklyn was using his genitalia.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 10:58:32 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Though i agree with most of what was said about Broadway, with Brooklyn helpless and the outnumber thing. But the comparison of Broadway and Elisa in a case like "idont want your help so dont help", dont know. Macbeth didnt want Elisa´s help in Sanctuary and she "helped" him anyway.
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 10:22:02 am EST from 200.114.213.102

Just finished reading Barracuda latest story Assault on the Guild Part 1 and I nearly fell of my seat.
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 8:39:50 am EST from 195.93.21.4

VAEVICTIS - Sorry, I must have forgotten those responses.

As for the question - I suppose that it would be permmissible.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 8:31:29 am EST from 4.244.210.114

Siren: Makes one wonder how Brooklyn managed during his time travels before he meets Katana. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Face it: if crime did not pay, there would be very few criminals." -Laughton Lewis Burdock.
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 6:27:51 am EST from 71.62.204.109

Brooklyn says it himself: "She didn't want my help. SHE DIDN'T WANT ME." SHE DIDN'T WANT ME.

OF COURSE HE WAS DOING IT FOR THE WINGS AND tits. (Sorry for the caps type). He says so himself. "She didn't want ME."

Broadway cared, sure, but in the end she was taken back and he wanted to save his own skin. And his borther's. He even said so himself, too: "from my point she didn't want help." (Or something to that effect.)
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2007 12:15:59 am EST from 198.53.28.99

JJ, everything you said was irrevelant, IS relevant...for making the case why Broadway did what he did. Brooklyn was incompacitated. He was outnumbered. The two others strong enough to fight the attacking humans couldn't and wouldn't. Maggie didn't fight the humans when they took her, she actually looked to them to save her from the gargoyles. And Brooklyn was down and out for the count.

Judging Broadway's character from this one incident is really irrespondsible and a bit ignorant. If you met someone and the instant you met them, got off on the wrong foot, why not give them another chance?

Sorta off topic....but thought of something else with Brooklyn and his rookery brothers...Broadway made a choice to save Brooklyn, who was knocked out. And in "Leader of the Pack", the same thing happened with Lexington. Brooklyn was knocked out and going to die and Lex made the choice to save his brother....It seems Brooklyn is a bit of a Daphne sometimes...So much for that "bad boy" image ;)
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 10:42:26 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

Jurgan - I meant 246 questions until the last Gathering 2006 journal, not the 1st. If he keeps this pace up of over 10 a week, he'll get to the 2006 journals before the 2007 gathering.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 10:18:47 pm EST from 162.40.54.239

Todd: <<It's probably irrelevant, since Greg's already mentioned that gargoyles and gargoyle beasts are the only kind of gargates at all, so that would be one of those questions that would simply get a "cut-and-pasted" reply from the archives rather than an actual answer from Greg.>>

Well, I went in the archives and didn't find that. I found these:

<<matt writes...

besides the gargoyles and the garg beast had you thought of any other gargates that once existed or perhaps still exist? like what they looked like and stuff...

Greg responds...

Yes.>>

and
<<Laura aka 'ad astra' writes...

I had a strange thought- you said in your mind gargoyles and gargoyle beasts are the only two members of the Gargate family (class?, it has been a while since I knew the different parts of scientific names). Out of curiosity- do they, like humans, have a whole bunch of ancestor, and near ancestor species that did not make it?

Greg responds...

Sort of.>>

and
<<The Gargate-ancestor species go back to the time of the dinosaurs">>

And those are the species I want to ask Greg about. Of course I don't want to get him in trouble with an idea. I want to rephrase the question so it is NOT an idea at all.

Todd again: <<Sorry, I hadn't fully read your post at the time. I simply got my memory jogged when I looked at your post and remembered what your questions had been; I didn't check to see if you'd reworded it or not.>>

What if I asked this way:
"Greg, I am very curious about Gargate evolution. In previous responses you said that you have thought about Gargate species which existed before Gargoyles and Garg-Beasts evolved. I would really love to learn more about those extinct species. Would you please tell me anything about them? What did they look like?"

Would you allow that question, Todd?
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 10:04:07 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

JJG - I don't know how you can say Broadway wasn't interested when he's the one who took the time and effort to recover the GenUtech bracelet. Just cuz he commented that Maggie didn't want Brooklyn's help, doesn't support the argument that Broadway didn't want to help her or was uninterested in what was going on. That's completely faulty logic IMHO. You say the fact that he rescued Brook is/was immaterial. But that argument seems specious to me too. Broadway set priorities. He got his buddy out and got the one piece of evidence that could help them get to the bottom of things.
L.T. Williams
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 9:53:46 pm EST from 71.93.81.240

JJ,
With all due respect.. what would make Broadway care about Maggie anymore than anyone else at that point?
He was/ is a warrior trained. When you are in battle, people make decisions. Often rash ones. She told him what she wanted him to know. She did not require their help. He didn't know her so he had no emotional reason to stay and help her.

And why are we focusing on Brooklyn being darted? Well keep this in mind. To list all of their human contact thus far....

1) Growing up protecting humans that ultimately betrayed you and allowed the slaughter of your whole family.

2) Being cursed to sleep with no other reason than your family member may be the cause of another death.

3) Having been woken up and almost immediately "attacked", then coming to find out that those who attacked you were working for the man claiming to be your friend.

4) A fellow clan member, a group of human TV stars pretending to be your friends, etc. all eventually betraying you as well.

For the clan at this point, the old adage "You only know what you don't know" rings true. Broadway knew Brooklyn was his brother, that he loved him, and that he needed help. What he did not know, or care to find out is what would happen if these armed Gen-U-Tech commandos would pose a threat on his brother's life. He was not going to risk that. Brooklyn was his family, and friend. Maggie at the time was this ungrateful, indignant woman. Who, although scared, didn't see the helping hands extended.

So there you go.
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 9:50:47 pm EST from 74.129.251.212

When discussing my argument, why is everyone focusing on Brooklyn getting darted? That is irrelevant.
Or on Broadway rescuing Brooklyn? That is irrelevant.
Sexual attraction and Brooklyn's "lover-boy" routine is irrelevant, as well.
So is Brooklyn's resultant irresponsibility. (I'm talking about another gargoyle!)

I still stand by my conclusion. Broadway cares about Maggie later, but definitely not now.

Broadway didn't want to even investigate what the heck was going on, as far as I can tell. He just wanted to go on his own business.
*That* is relevant.

As I point out below, it behooves the gargoyles to find out what the heck's going on.

This is why Goliath eventually does start a investigation.
JJ Gregarius
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 9:31:40 pm EST from 12.78.58.19

On the topic of Elisa getting shot, Greg stated that Elisa told Chavez that she was cleaning the gun and it went of on her. I wonder if it ruined her credibility, or how much Chavez bought it.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 8:57:41 pm EST from 71.115.231.16

Look at it this way...

3 soldiers are being fired upon by the enemy. One is wounded. One ignores the the orders of the other two soldiers to get out of there. So the 3rd one, who is uninjured grabs the injured one and gets out. Saving his one comrade, but understanding the other one made a choice to stay and perhaps die fighting. Would we say the soldier that carried the injured one was a coward or a hero?

Broadway saved Brooklyn and left Maggie due to the circumstances. He had no other choice, but to leave her. Otherwise he would have been in the same prediciment as Brooklyn, darted and captured. Broadway chose the lesser of two evils. Save his rookery brother and leave the stranger who didn't want their help anyways.
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 8:09:18 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

Not too much to add to the Broadway discussion, since I agree with Justin and Greg and would likely be repeating them. All I'll say is, it takes enormous strength of character to admit to almost killing someone. Juxtaposing big-boned with stupid? Big mistake.

Concerning Dracon: It would make sense if the family were a stand-in for one of the real ones. Would help explain how Tony got out on bail after kidnapping police officers. As far as the guns were concerned, I could see his lawyers getting him off on circumstantial evidence (that, and/or he wasn't actually detained by recognized law enforcement). Kidnapping would be harder to get around, though.

Something I've often wondered is why we seem to be missing a generation of Dracon. If Tony's father is still alive, I think it's safe to assume that he's somehow employed in the fun and profitable world of organized crime.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Face it: if crime did not pay, there would be very few criminals." -Laughton Lewis Burdock.
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 7:24:58 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Every time I see the part where Broadway gives Elisa the Gen-U-Tech bracelet, I can't help but think of the classic line: "Excuse me while I whip this out."
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: The Graduate OST
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 7:20:30 pm EST from 207.207.40.250

well said Greg B.

JJ you know buddy look. Yes they were "defenders of the night" and all of that but. Just as important as Greg B. pointed out, that she didnt want their help... it is also important to remember that the clan is comprised of individuals. Individuals who may not always have the save monolithic view of "Gargoyles protect"

Broadway evaluated the situation. He saw what Brooklyn did not. Maggie begged the Gen-U-Tech commandos for their help. He took that knowledge and coupled it with the the view of "Gargoyles protect" and what did he do? Allowed her to make her choice and carried Brooklyn ( his clan member and brother) to safety.

He did his part. And to say he didn't give a sack of beans for Maggie? Where did you get that? Perhaps he remained impartial do to his studying Elisa and how she handles a case?

Maybe he had observed standard police behavior, and decided not to become emotionally involved long enough to find the right answers. And guess what? He proved right. This was a Xanatos scheme.

Another point. Do you remember the episode "Kingdom"? Before Brooklyn made his plan to free Talon apparent to Maggie, Brooklyn put on an air of "not giving a sack of beans for Talon. What was Broadway's response?

"You're just going to leave Talon?" obviously, although it is a different mutate, Broadway's ability for compassion for people outside of his clan is noted. Sure Talon is Elisa's brother, but to say he is this unfeeling character, is, to quote Greg Weisman, "assuming facts not in evidence."
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 7:05:49 pm EST from 74.129.251.212

Broadway assumptions were correct that something was fishy. Maggie was a decoy to get them. Perhaps it was his gut feeling (no pun intended of course) to leave her be. Afterall, you can't force your help on someone. And once Brooklyn got darted, Broadway knew he had a choice, fight to get Brooklyn and Maggie out of there and likely be darted too (afterall, Brooklyn is the skinnier and more agile of the two and HE got hit, so their aim is good) or get Brooklyn and get the hell out of there.

Also, at this time, Broadway and the others were still under the impression they were the ONLY Gargoyles alive. Goliaths's clan and Demona, that was it. Maggie certainly looked gargoyle-like....but like no gargoyle they likely ever saw. I remember there were discussions about how gargoyles smell, if they have a distinctive odor, she likely didn't smell like one either.

Unfortunatly, we can't look into their heads to know completely what they were thinking. All we can do is ask Greg when allowed.
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 7:03:18 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

VAEVICTIS - Sorry, I hadn't fully read your post at the time. I simply got my memory jogged when I looked at your post and remembered what your questions had been; I didn't check to see if you'd reworded it or not.

It's probably irrelevant, since Greg's already mentioned that gargoyles and gargoyle beasts are the only kind of gargates at all, so that would be one of those questions that would simply get a "cut-and-pasted" reply from the archives rather than an actual answer from Greg.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 6:52:01 pm EST from 4.244.210.111

JJ> Dude, she didn't want their help... she was asking the Commandos for help. Brooklyn didn't want to help her out of compassion, he wanted to help her cause she had wings and tits.

Broadway sensed something fishy about the whole situation from the start, and you know what, he was right. It was another one of Xanatos's games.

Sometimes people just don't want to be helped. Maggie didn't. In the big picture, the Mutates became allies of the clan... but not because of Brooklyn's "compassion"
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"I'm in the waste management business. Everybody immediately assumes you're mobbed up. It's a stereotype, and it's offensive." - Tony Soprano
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 6:24:47 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Broadway & the Encounter with Maggie: Episode "Metamorphosis" (on Season 2 Vol. 1)>>
Leaving Brooklyn's foibles for a later discussion, let's examine Broadway's behavior here.

The pertinent lines were
(After MAGGIE was dragged into the van. BROOKLYN and BROADWAY are hiding behind a dumpster)
BROOKLYN: We have to save her!
BROADWAY: If you say so...

and later
(debriefing with GOLIATH)
BROOKLYN: She was so frightened.
BROADWAY: Yeah, of *us*.
BROOKLYN: She needed our help.
BROADWAY: (Are) we talkin' about the same person? From where I sat she didn't *want* our help!

(Funny, Broadway, I think you could say that about almost everyone you do help.)

A moment later Broadway reveals that Brooklyn took the bracelet from Maggies arm (???)

CONCLUSIONS:
* Broadway doesn't give a sack of beans about Maggie at this point.
* Broadway doesn't really care much about what was going on, other than perhaps trying to keep Brooklyn out of trouble. (or not upsetting the "leader")

I could even add

* Broadway is quite uninquisitive.

but it would take a while for me to explain that conclusion, and this post is long enough.
JJ Gregarius
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 6:20:45 pm EST from 12.78.60.164

If I may throw my two cents in on Broadway....
I understand that it is commonplace to associate being fat with stupidity or ignorance in our culture. But one thing I believe we all have pointed out in one way or another is that they all were ignorant upon waking up in the 20th century.

Another thing to remember is to not fall prey to social values just because they are commonplace. We must judge and evaluate each standard on it's own merit and make a decision based on what's right. Margot Yale, who had been saved by these creatures time and time again, still saw there foreign outsides and assumed they were monsters, beasts. She failed to see who they were.

If we judge Broadway solely on his size, and not his actions over time, then who are we? We have become the exact same hypocrisy that this show pointed out, and ultimately tried to change.

Broadway made some rather big mistakes, sure. He is young, how many of us screwed up at 18? I know I did!!! But we learn. He didn't screw up because he is fat and stupid. His weight didn't even register there. That is like saying Brooklyn only trusted Demona because he has a beak. Or that Lexington only trusted the Pack because he is short. You see? Neither of those make any sense either.

Another thing to point out.. Hudson is roughly the same build as Broadway. He is by no means skinny, so we should by that rational be having a similar discussion on him. Yet I believe he is regarded as certainly the wisest of the clan. He had the time to mature and grow. Brooklyn, Lexington AND Broadway will all have there chance to as well.

Although Brooklyn sooner than the others it would seem.

Well those are my thoughts..
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 5:41:27 pm EST from 74.129.251.212

"69 questions until the 1st gathering 2006 journal. 246 questions until the 1st gathering 2006 journal."

I assume the first 2006 was meant to read 2005?
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 5:22:35 pm EST from 68.58.219.175

Wow! 69 questions until the 1st gathering 2006 journal. 246 questions until the 1st gathering 2006 journal.

The slg website still doesn't list when issue #3 will be available, but it is nice to know issue #7 is being worked on.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20061229/sc_space/fullmoonnamesfor2007
<- found this a while back. It answers some questions for this year.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 3:09:56 pm EST from 162.40.54.239

Todd: And the way I re-worded it below is still not acceptable? :(
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 11:44:45 am EST from 209.162.56.94

BISHANSKY - I was under the impression that it was "Turf" rather than "Protection" that really sealed the end of Dracon's gang. After "Protection", Dracon wound up in jail and was still there in "Turf" (as opposed to the previous episodes where he was always back out on the street by his next appearance), but he was still directing things from his cell, including the turf war with Brod. I think that it's "Turf" that spells his downfall.

Which leads to two questions that I hope the comic will answer:

1. What role will Tony play in the series, now that his days as a crime boss are (for the time being) over?

2. Who will succeed him as the "organized crime" figure?

VAEVICTIS - Ah, I remember that question now. I dropped it because it came too close to an idea masquerading as a question for my comfort.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 8:03:19 am EST from 4.244.215.27

Jurgan - I think Chavez was grasping at straws. Searching for some plausible explanation -- and frankly wanting to blame Dracon. There was blood on the floor. The gun lying on the floor. Steaks cooking. The cops knew Elisa had been shot in her apartment. Steaks (plural). So maybe she reasoned a friend brought Elisa to the hospital, but was too afraid of Dracon to stick around.

Maria's explanation doesn't have to make perfect sense. She's upset. We're talking less than 24 hours having passed. She had a likely suspect, who would try to cover his trail. She'd sort the rest out later. Maybe not the best police work, but I think it's human and believable.

The point I'm trying to make is, uh... just a sec, I had it. Oh, yeah... I don't see the fact that Maria's explanation ultimately doesn't hold water as a mistake of the Gargoyles staff. It's HER error, not theirs. Anyhow, it works for me.
L.T. Williams
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 3:22:06 am EST from 71.93.81.240

JJ> I think Broadway realized they were out-numbered and out-gunned, esspecially after Brook got drugged. I think he was careful to notice where the vans came from and was sure to bring the Gen-U-Tech bracelet back as a clue to Maggie's whereabouts. Broadway was interested in Maggie, just not neccesarily as a romantic partner. Between Broadway and Brooklyn, it was clearly Broadway who was handling the situation most intelligently and maturely. Would it have been better had all three of them been darted and carried off?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 2:34:20 am EST from 24.207.163.239

JURGAN> Because, if they did, they'd be crushed by the Five Families.

No, I think the Dracons are probably a stand-in for one of the real Five Families.

Besides, Greg once said this:

"2. In theory, Dracon reported to the head of the Dracon family. In practice, he operated solo."

Sounds very Cosa Nostra-esque to me. I do think Greg is going for a Mafia-esque organization. It's more fun and interesting that way, as opposed to cheap, over-the-top "Scarface" stuff. I like "Scarface" a lot, but it's really not one of the better gangster movies. Too over the top and unrealistic.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"I'm in the waste management business. Everybody immediately assumes you're mobbed up. It's a stereotype, and it's offensive." - Tony Soprano
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 1:59:08 am EST from 67.87.175.245

Greg B.: We've discussed this before: What makes you so sure that Dracon is even part of the Mafia? At no point is his gang referred to by name. I'd always assumed that his family simply started their own criminal empire from nothing- more Scarface than Godfather, if you will.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- that's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 1:47:33 am EST from 71.226.160.29

Something I've been thinking about... how the hell did Dracon make capo? Yeah, his grandfather was probably running things and got his career moving, but Dracon demonstrated severe amounts of incompetence throughout the series, especially in "Protection".

I know he has the hots for Elisa, but no competent capo would have let any cop near him like he did. Let alone openly discuss business activities. Yeah, he thought she went corrupt and was demanding protection money, but still. The Cosa Nostra has a policy of "making your bones" for a reason.

Actually, talking to Revel about this on AIM right now, he brings up a good point... is Dracon even a capo? He's probably not even that. He's young, maybe newly made, has his own gang of thugs. Maybe he's kinda like Christopher Moltisanti (in The Sopranos)... newly made, has his own group. But he's too young and reckless to be a capo... and I highly doubt he's the Boss.

Dominic may have been Boss once, was probably definitely a capo (like Uncle Junior), but as we've seen was retired and came out briefly for Mace Malone's jewels.

Greg did once say that he saw Tony Dracon's group being wiped out after "Protection"... which would make sense. A mess-up like that would definitely result in him losing favor with the Boss. He also said that Glasses would become more of a leader... which of course would mean Glasses would have to start his own crew from scratch, let's face it, he's not an Italian-American. Only Italian-Americans (pure blooded) can be made members of the Cosa Nostra. Non-Italians can work with the Mafia, but can't be members.

Just something to think about.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"I'm in the waste management business. Everybody immediately assumes you're mobbed up. It's a stereotype, and it's offensive." - Tony Soprano
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2007 1:22:46 am EST from 67.87.175.245

Broadway>> You see I interpret his first reaction to Maggie differently. To me, it appears that Broadway is saying "We have no business here, Brook; let's go!", which is downright asinine.

We have a lady who could very well be a gargoyle being threatened by people willing to drug her to catch her. This means:
1) There may be other gargoyles in New York, and
2) The Wythern clan may be in grave danger from her assailants.
Conclusion:
The gargoyles should investigate, not brush Maggie off as someone who doesn't want help.

That scene pretty much formed my final opinion of Broadway.
JJ Gregarius
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 11:56:57 pm EST from 12.78.61.26

Siren: "he is the caring teddy bear" Amen! ;).
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 11:43:27 pm EST from 200.114.213.102

I like Broadway, too. I think the scene in "Deadly Force" where he's sitting on the top of the building crying is absolutely heartbreaking. There is one major nitpick I've always had about "Deadly Force," though, and I've brought it up before. Captain Chavez's explanation as to how they think Elisa got shot makes no damn sense at all. She says that one of Dracon's men, or perhaps Dracon himself, broke into her apartment and shot her with her own gun. If that were the case, though, how in the heck could she have gotten to the hospital where they found her? A much more plausible explanation is that she was shot on the street, but that would seem less professional and so they'd be less likely to associate it with Dracon. The episode is very good, but I can't get past how little sense that makes. I'd ask Greg (were the queue open), but I can't think of any possible explanation, so I'm afraid it would come across as just playing "gotcha." Even the makers of Gargoyles made some mistakes, so I can let it go, but it bothers me.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- it's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 11:30:56 pm EST from 71.226.160.29

Broadway was perhaps the most vulnerable of the gargoyles. With Lex sometimes over him in that sense, sometimes not. ALL the gargoyles were naive. Even Goliath and Hudson.
They were out of their element. Some things that Broadway did and didn't do, may be viewed as stupid.....which is ignorant.

For instance, Broadway didn't know how to read and was content with that fact for a long time. But consider many people from 994, before, and beyond, were also illiterate. Back then, it just wasn't as commonplace as now. Or necessary. Goliath was always a sponge, he wanted to know everything, so he learned to read. But Broadway was content in not reading. With Goliath as leader, any important info through reading, Goliath would relay to him.
Jump to 20th century, and reading isn't just a privledge, its a requirment to function.
Broadway is just a laid back character. He's not curious about technology like Lexington, because its not his forte. Brooklyn is girl-crazy, and though Broadway certainly likes the ladies too, he is one of those guys who has a hard time approaching a girl. He saw Maggie wasn't interested in either Brooklyn or him, and he was willing to accept that and move on. Brooklyn was not, which at the time, showed Broadway being more mature then Brooklyn, in that respect.
Broadway has been a long time favorite of mine. Because he isn't the fat idiot. He is the caring teddy bear. :)
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 10:46:10 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

Abby - You're right about Broadway. So many people dismiss him for being a slob, fat and unintelligent. That drives me crazy since he shows throughout the series how much as a character he can grow. Sure, everyone is going to use the example "well, he shot Elisa!", well, Lex went off and trusted the Pack and almost got himself and Goliath killed. Brooklyn trusted Deomona and almost did the same. Growing up is a learning process. Some people make bad decisions as a part of the growing process. Considering the curcomstances, Broadway had little knowledge of what a gun would actually do. The movie glorified the use of them and he made the mistake of touching ELisa's gun without asking(plus she left it out in plain sight).

People also question why he ended up with Angela. Even Angela could see what a caring individual he had grown to be. He's not just the "Big dumb gargoyle with his brains in his stomach" that everyone has made him out to be. Being large in size doesn't make you stupid, despite what the media tends to make you out to be(as a rather large person, I should know).
Wingless
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 9:57:07 pm EST from 74.105.128.170

Vaevictis > Thanks for the comments. Broadway not turning the stove off does seem to present a problem. I like the scene where he uses his tail against two of Dracon's men. An angry Broadway is definitely a force to be reckoned with - especially since at that point he had no way to know if he had killed Elisa or if she was still alive.

"The full moon should not rise just before dawn." > Very true. But are you thinking of the scene where Owen tells Goliath that Elisa has been shot? I interpreted that object as the sun rising (not the moon), and that Goliath's turning to stone was a bit "late" (perhaps a plot device to let him hear Owen's news).

"Bruadway later becomes interested in another type of movie..." > It was that episode which inspired me to eventually watch the movie in question - it's a classic.

That episode and "Deadly Force" are among my favorites. Broadway's just such a down-to-earth, real character.
Abby
"Boy, the city sure is different when it snows." "Yeah. It's colder." - The Price
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 9:30:03 pm EST from 24.118.226.247

Wait, I'm confused...the full moon should not rise before dawn...true...but do you mean you could still see the full moon at dawn/dusk?? Which does happen. Did the other day here in Florida. Saw the full moon as clear as day and the sun was still a few hours from setting fully.

Also, I saw Aladdin 7 times in the theater. A few times two days in a row. And I saw Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron 10 times in the theater, again, two days in a row sometimes. And I've watched The Last Unicorn a few days in a row.

There are also those movies that need to be watched at least twice, to catch everything...Sixth Sense comes to mind
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 9:19:54 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

Who's watch a movie 2 nights in a row. I say-how many times have some of us wached these Gargoyles episodes ^_~. Tis what makes us fans. Bruadway later becomes interested in another type of movie(not going to spoil it for you) and as a result - the genre of movie influences his interest in the subject as well as becoming a shared interest in one of the other characters professions. (Gee, the show has been around for 12 years, and I'm being secretive about the plot :-) It's fun having new fans.
Wingless
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 9:04:05 pm EST from 74.105.128.170

I can think of several movies that I saw in the theaters more than once... and a couple of them two days in a row. I can understand Broadway going to see a movie so many times considering he liked it so much, he had an easy way of transportation, he didn't have to pay for it, he probably didn't have anything better to do and there was a chance of free popcorn.

As for him carrying Elisa to the hospital, I don't think it seemed as if the hospital was that close. I just think he glided there as fast as he could and was lucky to see an empty stretcher and a couple paramedics near the ER when he got there.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 8:45:19 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Vaevictis> Yeah, that question does seem like an idea masquerading as a question.

"*Why on Earth would anyone watch the same movie two nights in a row? Broadway is weird."

Some movies are that good. I watched "Goodfellas" two nights in a row. Excellent film.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 8:14:27 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Todd - I wonder if it came across as an idea. I didn't think that would happen (obviously) but I'll ask my questions (rephrased) here in the CR and can you please tell me, if they are OK to submit like this?:

1. Will we ever hear about any species of Gargates that existed in the past, other than Gargoyles and Garg-Beasts?

2. Did any other Gargate species survive by the time Humans evolved, or were Gargoyles and Beasts the only surviving species by then?


I managed to squeeze three episodes onto my flash disk, so I might not have to re-download them. I'll have to see about an IBM DivX reader, though.


I watched Deadly Force. Actually, it went really fast and was confusing, so I watched it twice to catch what was happening. My thoughts (and nitpicks):

*The second disk has a different menu. That's new.
*The full moon should not rise just before dawn.
*Why on Earth would anyone watch the same movie two nights in a row? Broadway is weird. He doesn't waste any time, either. He's in her apartment about 30 seconds before he grabs the gun.
*I like Hudson griping about TV and video games and children "these days." :)
*Gargoyles have prehensile tails! I didn't expect that.
*Broadway forgot to turn off the stove when he left. It's a miracle the place didn't burn down before the police arrived. And the police must wonder who took her to the hospital.
*Speaking of which, how does there just happen to be an empty ambulance and a stretcher outside her apartment? I'm confused. It didn't show him actually flying to the hospital.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 7:35:07 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

VAEVICTIS - Unfortunately, I don't remember your precise question, so I can't answer you with certainty. But I do know that I deleted a few questions because they were on multiple topics (one post contained a question about the DVDs and another about the events in "The Mirror", for example, rather than making them separate posts), and yours could have been one of them. In that case, I would suggest that you submit a separate post for each subject, the next time that the queue is open.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 7:18:38 pm EST from 4.244.208.203

I see that my question that I submitted got deleted.

Todd, can you please tell me why it was deleted so I can avoid this happening again? What did I do wrong?
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 5:23:52 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

With Disney releasing DVDs of Darkwing Duck, Talespin, Ducktales, Rescue Rangers, etc, is there any chance they will release Season Two Volume Two with no extras after they run out of sets for these other popular shows?
TJ - [tjguitar85 at yahoo dot com]
TJ
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 3:07:25 pm EST from 75.4.207.138

Todd Jensen> LOL.

Samuel> "Yey for garg fans being able to find one another on a variety of websites."

Did you read Vid The Kid's post below? Come check it (his link) out if you want to chat with other Gargs fans.

http://syloq.lomag.net/chat.php?chan=Gargs&guest=Gargoyle&auto=1
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 10:29:18 am EST from 209.239.132.42

PurpleGoldfish: Yey for garg fans being able to find one another on a variety of websites. n.n I appreciate the comments, by the by. They make me feel loved.

Todd: Hahah. Silliness. It is silly. And thus infects me with further happiness.

*suddenly is in a very good mood*
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 9:12:10 am EST from 68.55.107.142

Here's another moment that will most likely never appear in the Gargoyles comic book:

Castaway discovers the existence of the Loch Ness clan, and promptly outfits an expedition to Scotland to hunt it down and wipe it out. He has a submarine built to use for the hunt, but when it arrives, he, after taking one look at it, is on the phone with the company that he contracted to build the sub for him, shouting "DID YOU HAVE TO HAVE IT PAINTED YELLOW?"
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 7:21:46 am EST from 4.244.213.242

From "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time"
Broadway: "Well, I can't read, and I don't think I'm missing anything."
and
Hudson: "Well, who would teach me? I've never told my clan that I can't read."

Regarding Greg Weisman's reply, I don't see how you COULDN'T interpret that scene that way? Also, Brooklyn actually DID find what he was looking for, as he tells Demona: "You hold the book, Demona, but I hold the spell." Considering how fast he was able to find the spell, I don't see how he could be illiterate or even semi-literate.
And then Brooklyn states back at the castle that "I've gone through the Grimorum page by page, but I don't know how to reverse the spell Demona put on Goliath."

Come to think of it, how did Goliath learn to read modern English? Do we know he could read in the 10th century?
I think it's a safe bet that ALL the clan members were illiterate in modern English when they were awoken since modern English didn't exist until AFTER they were cursed by the Magus.

Vaevictis> Quicktime is rather odd. I was able to run some, and unable to run some, avi's on my version of Quicktime (5.0.2). Maybe Apple stopped supporting the format on later versions due to legal issues or something?
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
"Ohhh, it itches!" --Iron Butt recipient "Spongebob Squarepants"
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 1:30:28 am EST from 63.20.50.137

yeah Demona at least knows elisa is alive only two episodes later-but she probably did know before then-she didn't seem all that surprised at seeing her.

comic review guy-oh no, he's back lmao-at least he's wearing pants this time. I gotta admit, I cracked up when I saw the comic in a ziplock bag dangling over his head, and the shot of the super nintendo next to the vcr made me crack up for some reason (maybe that's because my own old super nintendo is sitting on top of my VCR,lol)
anyway, yea I don't know why he's so surprised-I guess he was expecting new more material.

Samuel: hey, I've talked to you on deviantart before :) I left you a comment on one of your pieces

And check out what one of my deviantart friends made:
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/45603039/

Anyone recognize it? ;)
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2007 1:02:20 am EST from 64.12.116.8

Whoops! I posted the wrong link. The right link is http://www.www.slgcomic.com/index-exec/

The other one is a link to my deviantart page featuring a necklace I made. And it has nothing to do with gargoyles. n.n'
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2007 10:30:37 pm EST from 68.55.107.142

SLG's website has changed, and the second issue is now available for purchase on the site. A link is below.

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/45799041/?qo=3&q=by%3Agafami&qh=sort%3Atime+-in%3Ascraps

PS- Happy New Year, and happy engagements.
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2007 10:28:17 pm EST from 68.55.107.142

Literacy> We see more about Broadway and Hudson's response to reading in "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time." It's clear they're illiterate there, but I'll avoid spoilers in case Vaevictis Asmadi hasn't seen it yet.

Youtube link> I agree with Matt. While that guy is rather fun to watch (and I enjoyed the clips from the TV episode of "The Journey" because I never saw it air), he shouldn't be surprised that this issue finishes up what the first one started. It'll be interesting to see his review for #3 when it comes out.
Abby
"Boy, the city sure is different when it snows." "Yeah. It's colder." - The Price
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2007 6:16:38 pm EST from 24.118.226.247

Warcrafter> That guy is nuts. He cracks me up, but hes nuts. For such a Gargoyles fan, I'm surprised he was surprised that Issue 2 finished the second half of "The Journey". *shrugs*
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2007 6:07:30 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

<QUOTE>Question received on Sun, September 08, 2002 10:11:27 PM
Scottish Angel writes...
I've scoured the site looking for an answer to this question, and can't seem to find it - maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, perhaps you can help me...so here's my Question.

It's evident from the episode "Temptation" as well as a couple of others that Brooklyn knows Latin - and as he's been flipping through the Grimorum one can only conclude he is able to read it as well - however, you expressed he didn't learn to read until after coming to the 20th Century. So does the answer to his learning to read in the 20th Century relate only to him having learned to read English when he already understood Latin from days of old perhaps having learned from Demona or Goliath, or was he studying Latin in the 20th Century?

Please forgive me if this has been asked before...

Greg responds...
It's not obvious to me that he reads Latin. I think YOU are reading into the scene.

What's obvious is that he can't find what he's looking for. The fact that he's still (at best) semi- literate may in fact be both the problem and the motivator for him to GET more literate .

Response recorded on August 02, 2004</QUOTE>

Here's a little tidbit from Greg W. on Temptation.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2007 4:30:06 pm EST from 69.54.209.28

Blaqthourne: Quicktime does not run AVIs.

There was an answer somewhere in the archives where Greg went and identified which Gargoyles could read and what languages they knew. I'm pretty sure that Hudson and Broadway, at least, started out illiterate.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2007 3:27:19 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Guess who's back....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_fcYsdOIrc
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Humans are such easy prey for a gargoyle!........and I need more friends on XBOX Live for 360. Anyone?
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2007 3:23:02 pm EST from 69.231.221.53

Dph of rules: but on that case she probably would want to make sure and go to check by herself.
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2007 12:57:28 pm EST from 200.114.213.102

Sorry to interrupt the current discussion, but if anyone is up and actively chatting about Gargoyles this time of night I'd like to invite them to the #Gargs channel on irc.nightstar.net . No offense to Station 8 or its webmaster(s) but I am more comfortable chatting in IRC than PHP-based environments where you have to hit refresh to see what people say. If you don't have an IRC client (or even know what one is) you can access the chat here:
http://syloq.lomag.net/chat.php?chan=Gargs&guest=Gargoyle&auto=1

The topic of discussion may include but will not be limited to, whatever episode(s) Toon Disney is airing at the moment.
Vid the Kid
Does this font make me look fat?
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2007 3:23:11 am EST from 209.239.132.116

About Demona knowing Elisa hadn't died.

Point 1: If Elisa Maza had died as a result of Demona's actions during Long to Morning, it would have made news. The day that the death of a cop doesn't make news . . . . If Demona had kept up with the local newspapers or tv reports, she would have noticed Elisa's death was unreported, especially since the coroner (spelling?) would have discovered a new poison without an antedote.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2007 2:53:45 am EST from 162.40.54.239

Warcrafter> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POSTING THAT LINK!!!!!!! I DIDN'T KNOW THEY RELEASED THAT TRAILER!!! FREAKIN AWESOME!!!!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2007 2:21:30 am EST from 198.53.28.99

Vaevictis> Don't Mac's come pre-loaded with Quicktime? The last Apple I've seriously dealt with was an Apple IIe.

"Thrill of the Hunt" is actually one of my favorite eps. To me, it has the feel of "The Running Man", one of my favorite movies, and one of a handful of live action movies I own.

With Lexington and Brooklyn's exchange in Enter Macbeth:
"Brooklyn: Who is this Macbeth anyway?
Lexington: Uh, the name sounds familiar. Wait, I remember. Goliath was talking about a play called Macbeth by some new writer named Shakespeare.
Brooklyn: Uh huh. Ever read it?
Lexington: No.
Brooklyn: Maybe we should."
I'm assuming that, like Goliath, they can read, and they watch TV regularly. So I wouldn't use Goliath's literacy as the main reason he isn't interested in TV. He probably just finds more things worthy of his attention.

There used to be a Gargoyles nitpick page waaaay back in the day--like back when the show was current.
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Video game currently playing: Phantasy Star III
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2007 2:13:08 am EST from 63.20.65.33

Oh man, I just can't wait for this!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fZIbPN5_mAM
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Humans are such easy prey for a gargoyle!........and I need more friends on XBOX Live for 360. Anyone?
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2007 1:14:23 am EST from 69.231.221.53

Oh, that's right, I guess Demona did see Elisa briefly in "Reawakening".
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2007 12:13:30 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Vaevictis Asmadi>I bought a new DVD player and I am recording Protection onto my PC as I type. But thank you so much for the offer before. Now I have all the episodes I need to complete to big Garg videos :D
Hopefully at least one of them will be completed by this coming weekend. Its been a 3 week production and I've had very little sleep lately due to many other things.
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 9:27:57 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

OH and by the way. You having a bad day check these out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teb-w9CVnY8&mode=related&search=
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 9:11:36 pm EST from 200.114.213.102

Mmmm. Never thought of that. Do you think it went to blows?
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 9:09:39 pm EST from 200.114.213.102

I actually wonder if Demona might have just heard through the grapevine, before "The Mirror," that her plan failed. In the episode after "Long Way to Morning," Xanatos initiated his little pet project involving Derek Maza, so he clearly knew Elisa was still alive.

Todd: I imagine that, at the end of "Reawakening," Xanatos and Demona probably had a very amusing conversation when they got back to the castle. She did suffer a bit of indignity that night.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"God does not interfere in the affairs of man, they say. It's because he's not interested. He's done this planet. He's moved on. Perhaps one day he will put the entire kit back in its box, but probably not. You know kids, do they EVER put anything back in its box?" -Robert Rankin ("The Hollow Chocolate Bunnies of the Apocalypse")
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 8:55:34 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Also keep in mind that Demona thought she HAD killed Elisa in "Long Way til Morning" and it doesn't seem she realized Elisa was still alive until "The Mirror", then for whatever reason she didn't attack Elisa again until "City of Stone" (remember when she said, "I thought I'd rid myself of you long ago..."). After CoS, either Demona or Elisa or both was occupied for a while as others have mentioned...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 8:30:39 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

oops, I meant as Siren mentioned...not Harvester. Sorry!
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 8:23:39 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

Harvester and Siren: Those are very good points-makes sense.

Demon@-heh, I was just about to type that but you beat me to it. Yeah according to Greg Elisa is at the top...that might cause some problems in the not too distant future. but like harvester pointed out, Demona may be planning something especially evil for her, and she most likely want goliath to witness.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 8:21:43 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

I'd like to add that I watched my DVD of "Re-Awakening" last night. I think that it fits New Year's Eve very well, since:

1. The episode's set during winter.

2. Part of it is set in Times Square.

3. It ends with Goliath and his clan making a big change in their lives - becoming protectors for Manhattan - which fits the transition from one year to the next beautifully from a thematic point of view.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 7:31:35 pm EST from 4.244.213.167

Well actually Elisa IS number one is Demona´s hating list. These is the last answer of Greg on Demona´s archives:
7. Well, this is a little pointless, but if I have to rank your list, at this time, i.e. as of issue #1 of the comic book, I'd put 'em in this order of hate:
Elisa
Hunters
Thailog
Goliath
Macbeth
human race
rest of clan
Puck

Maybe by that time she wasnt the priority
Demon@ - [still searching for my avatar]
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 7:04:39 pm EST from 200.114.213.102

Jurgan & Yami Raven> Congratulations.

VA> I wish I could see these through fresh eyes like you are. Very good points.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 6:52:39 pm EST from 66.191.158.77

Happy New Year all!

I don't see Xanatos asking Demona to do anything...and her listening. More likely he kept her distracted with other things or simply convinced her to wait...Or he didn't say a thing at all. Demona's motto is "Revenge is a dish best served cold."
She was probably planning a time and place to dispose of Elisa and do the most emotional damage to Goliath as well.
Plus Demona sees the big picture. She hates all humans. Elisa is high on her hit list, but not #1. That place is reserved for The Hunter(s), then Macbeth is likely #2. She probably figures bide her time by finishing collecting everything she needed for the City of Stone spell and destroy all humans, not just focus on Elisa.

Though I do wonder, when she cast her spell, she had to know Macbeth would also be effected, I wonder what she planned to do with him when she found him. Probably lock him away somewhere so she can continue to live and not be bothered by him.
I'm also guessing Macbeth can't starve to death, so she probably wouldn't bother feeding him either, lol
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 6:51:22 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury: I would wait for him to be older enough to decide for himself i guess
Vaevictis Asmadi: Maybe the name thing was just a way for the gargoyles to say godbye to the past.
Goliath, seeing the young ones choosing it and been so happy about it, maybe he was really carefull
in showing them his aproval and thought before saying some kind of nickname he may have said
in the past. So not to bring the memories up.
Demon@ - [still searching for my avatar]
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 6:17:37 pm EST from 200.114.213.102

Does anybody know how to get #2 online? Amazon for some reason still doesn't even list it as being in existence, and my local comic shops don't buy Gargoyles.

Jurgan: CONGRATULATIONS! That is so wonderful for you!

Harvester: Ah, thanks for being concerned about spoilers for me. :) Even though I read your post anyway.
I have not seen Deadly Force yet. The episodes I saw as a kid were Awakening part 2, Temptation, City of Stone, Avalon part 1, Grief, and New Olympians. The last two are the only ones I remember(ed) clearly.

Greg B.: I don't understand what you mean by "leverage," could you please explain more what you mean? That Lex used leverage to break the steel and lift the Viking, or that the humans used leverage to pin him, or he couldn't escape because he lacked leverage?
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 5:57:25 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Congrats to the newly-engaged.

VA: Interesting little tidbit about the names. Never stopped to think about that. I suppose one of the things that helped it along was the fact that Goliath already had a name, which they'd used constantly in their old life. That, and the Trio seemed eager to have them. I could see Hudson having trouble adapting, due to his comments to Elisa. Just my thoughts.

And I sort of envy you. I wish I could watch "Deadly Force" for the first time again. Unless you've already seen it. If not, you are gonna love it (I hope).

Greg B: <In these episodes, they probably just raid Xanatos's stock.> I wonder if Xanatos had any giant Rice Krispie squares laying around.

Patrick: <Ironic that Elisa's too stubborn to move, yet she takes Goliath to task for the exact same thing.> Well, they are both stubborn. Plus Elisa has the advantage of both mobility and a lack of breakage potential in daylight.

WARNING: POTENTIAL SPOILERS
That warning is mostly there for Vaevictus.

Actually, after Xanatos and Demona's business relationship terminated, it's pretty easy to map out why Demona couldn't use Elisa's location to her advantage. First, Demona and Macbeth were off jumping through hoops for the Sisters. Then Elisa was on an extended vacation. THEN shortly after getting back, Demona was locked up for a while (Thailog was still free, but I don't think he cared much about Elisa. Just her genes). THEN after she was free, she probably figured that once her virus was ready, Elisa would die anyway. Now as far as the comic is concerned, who can say what will happen?

If I had to guess, I would say that before "City of Stone," Xanatos just politely asked Demona to let Elisa be.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"God does not interfere in the affairs of man, they say. It's because he's not interested. He's done this planet. He's moved on. Perhaps one day he will put the entire kit back in its box, but probably not. You know kids, do they EVER put anything back in its box?" -Robert Rankin ("The Hollow Chocolate Bunnies of the Apocalypse")
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 5:14:40 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Happy New Year Everyone!!!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 5:06:10 pm EST from 198.53.28.99

Well, now that the new week's started, I have a riddle for everyone: What do seven and nine have in common?

Answer: In this week's top ten, they mark people who are getting married. That's right, Yami Raven and I are officially engaged! Hooray! There's no date yet, but I thought I'd share the news!
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 3:02:21 pm EST from 68.58.219.175

"Lexington's strength seems to be somewhat inconsistent. He can bend steel spikes and bench-press a Viking, but then Wolf pins him, and so did one of those Xanatos-Corp guys in Awakening. Did anybody else notice this?'

Leverage.

"I wonder what the gargoyles eat in Manhattan. When Broadway and Lexington go off to breakfast, what are they going to eat? I wonder if they steal from humans, or go dumpster-diving, or something.'

In these episodes, they probably just raid Xanatos's stock.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 1:42:55 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Yes, here we also had the first real snow! :) It snowed once before, but melted pretty quickly. I'm so glad it is finally actually winter! It doesn't feel right to go an entire year without snow.


A while ago, somebody asked where was the website that has pictures of all the characters.
I don't know if this is the website you were looking for, but it has pretty good pictures, especially of obscure characters and the unnamed gargoyles in Avalon and Wyvern.
http://lynativerse.artchicks.org/Screencaps/GargCaps.htm


So, I watched Thrill of the Hunt and Temptation. My thoughts:

*22 minutes is very short for an episode.
*The trio seem to be lonely without other gargoyles, and looking for people to make friends with. Even though they didn't actually witness the massacre and weren't necessarily traumatized as such, I think they miss their rookery siblings.
*Lexington's strength seems to be somewhat inconsistent. He can bend steel spikes and bench-press a Viking, but then Wolf pins him, and so did one of those Xanatos-Corp guys in Awakening. Did anybody else notice this?
*Thrill of the Hunt was a more Four Colors/Superheroes sort of an episode, very different in feel from the other episodes so far. I think the Pack are somewhat silly. (sorry, Greg W.)
*Demona's arguments are so convincing mainly because she isn't actually lying, she's using the truth and bending it. Of course, it also makes it convincing that she completely believes what she's saying. It seems, though, that Brooklyn must not have had much contact with the Wyvern Castle humans, or he would not be so easily swayed. Goliath had more contact with them, and even though they were contemptuous of him he was probably able to see some good things about them, at least when he watched them interact with each other.
*It makes perfect sense that the gargoyles would be so naive about TV. And whereas any human whose TV couldn't change channels, would know immediately that it was broken, Hudson and the trio don't really get it.
*Even though the gargoyles lived their entire lives without using names and only recently named themselves, they use names constantly now in conversation. The change feels abrupt and dis-believable for me. The trio have been hanging out on rooftops, watching TV, and imitating humans, but Goliath would not have altered his diction and style of speech so quickly, I think. Also, how does he already know how a fire hydrant works?
*I wonder what the gargoyles eat in Manhattan. When Broadway and Lexington go off to breakfast, what are they going to eat? I wonder if they steal from humans, or go dumpster-diving, or something.
*Goliath is so convinced that Xanatos is out of the way. I think he knows that Elisa might be right, but he's in denial because he desperately wants to believe he has found somewhere safe. His life has been in upheval for a while (discounting the 1000 years he slept) and he feels insecure, I think. Usually when Goliath talks, he sounds more reasonable and thoughtful.
*The other gargoyles often watch TV, but Goliath, who can read, is not interested in it.

Nice lines:

"Are you a Viking?" (from Awakening)
"I'll never trust anyone again!"
"I always survive!" (interesting in light of what we now know about Demona)
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 1:32:06 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Happy 2007, everyone!

Vaevictis Asmadi> Keep those reviews and comments coming! I enjoy them too.

In honor of the first real smow of the winter (finally!) I present a new signature line, from "The Price." ;-)
Abby
"Boy, the city sure is different when it snows." "Yeah. It's colder." - The Price
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 12:08:46 pm EST from 24.118.226.247

Sorry for the double post.

There should have been a smiley :) on the end of that.

I really wish I could preview posts.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 11:07:16 am EST from 209.162.56.94

This computer is a Mac, OSX 10.2.8. I didn't think it was that old, but I can't find anything at all that will run on it. I found *one* program that I was able to install, which claimed it would run on 10.2.xx, but when I tried to run it it said I was missing about 6 other software that I can't find.
The whole situation is so dumb, if I could just download the movies onto my PC I'd be fine.

Jurgan: Who said anything about set in stone? I've only seen 5 episodes yet, give me a break!
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 11:00:59 am EST from 209.162.56.94

Maybe Elisa has a fixed rent and it's worth the risk for her...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 10:39:05 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Happy New Year's. :)
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 10:09:29 am EST from 209.239.132.184

Happy New Year!

<<how did Demona find out where she lived anyway?>> Maybe she let her talons do the walking and used the yellow pages.

Ironic that Elisa's too stubborn to move, yet she takes Goliath to task for the exact same thing.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"Thank you for flying Church of England, cake or death?" - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 9:30:02 am EST from 70.229.201.226

Happy New Year, everybody! Let's all make this a great 2007!
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 7:40:28 am EST from 4.244.210.200

Happy New Year to all in the Mountain Time Zone!

Vaevictis> Just how old is the computer you're talking about? Is your mother's PC a Mac or is that yours? Every version of WMP that I can remember has been able to play AVI's. Winamp plays them. If it's got a hard drive (even from the good old 20MB days), I should think you can find a program that would run them, although you'd probably only be able to fit a handful of AVI's on that dinky HD.

Here's a hypothetical question that came up at work a couple months ago, and I always forgot to ask it here, but I think it has relevence:

If you were having a baby and found out that s/he was going to have a tail (no wings :P just a tail), would you have the tail removed?
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: Final Fantasy XII OST (Limited Edition) (disc 4 of 4)
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 2:24:17 am EST from 63.20.30.10

yay happy new year! I don't even bother making resolutions, I never adhere to them heh.

Todd Jensen: Yeah I guess that makes sense, castaway probably wouldn't target her-but he is kind of crazy, and I for one would be terrified to stay in that apartment. He wasn't very apprehensive about killing elisa in "the journey" though. Did he think he could get away with killing a cop? hmm, maybe he planned on framing Vinnie...

and about demona knowing where elisa lives...yeah that's always kinda bugged me.
for one, how did Demona find out where she lived anyway?
And if Demona is so intent on killing Elisa, why didn't she attempt to kill her if she knows where she lives? (she could have even just placed a bomb in there)
And why the hell does Elisa not move or seem too concerned about it? (I guess rent in Manhattan is too high to start looking for new apartments) ;)

Vaevictus: haha, nah I like to see what new viewers think.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 2:09:03 am EST from 152.163.100.14

Blast it -- Missed the ten. Oh well -- Happy New Year!!
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
Pheon
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 2:03:01 am EST from 70.162.220.224

Tenth.

Happy new year, room!
Lynati - [Lynati_1 at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 1:23:43 am EST from 71.163.27.144

Excuse me, I mean 9th! ^^
Yami Raven - [raven_Mccloud2002 at yahoo dot com]
"Delicious Tea...or Deadly Poison?" -Uncle Iroh, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 1:09:03 am EST from 71.226.160.29

8th! Happy New Year! I hope everyone's doing well! ^_^
Yami Raven - [raven_Mccloud2002 at yahoo dot com]
"Delicious Tea...or Deadly Poison?" -Uncle Iroh, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 1:08:29 am EST from 71.226.160.29

8th
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 1:07:33 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Happy New Year to the Central Time Zone... weird having the Room reset on new years, doesn't happen often... gotta go, i'm kinda buzzed and typing is hard...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 1:07:04 am EST from 24.207.163.239

7th in 07! Happy New Year! And happy new week, so we can stop talking about all the inflammatory topics I missed last week by dint of being on vacation.

Vaevictis: Seriously, watch Avalon. A lot of people who didn't like the Magus change their minds there. If you still don't, that's fine, but don't let your opinions be set in stone yet.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 1:05:34 am EST from 71.226.160.29

Harvester: <<Vaevictus: If you've never seen Season Two, alls I can say is you're in for a treat.>>

I've seen a few of the episodes, (I even remember two), and I've read the basic gist of The Gathering. I know the Magus becomes less of a jerk later, but I *still* hate him.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 1:02:15 am EST from 209.162.56.94

6th!

Happy New Year!
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 1:00:40 am EST from 66.191.158.77

Five!

Happy new Year everybody!
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 12:58:57 am EST from 209.162.56.94

Pardon me. The system I'm on seems to be lagging.
Harvester of Eyes
"The problem with the future is that it keeps changing into the present." -Bill Watterson
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 12:10:36 am EST from 71.74.28.233

Pfhor!
Harvester of Eyes
"The problem with the future is that it keeps changing into the present." -Bill Watterson
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 12:09:46 am EST from 71.74.28.233

Pfhor!
Harvester of Eyes
"The problem with the future is that it keeps changing into the present." -Bill Watterson
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 12:09:42 am EST from 71.74.28.233

3rd! Happy New Year, East Coast!!
Leo
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 12:02:38 am EST from 68.229.103.25

2nd and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
The Sadistic Cow
It's me and you against the world. So when do we attack?
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 12:01:05 am EST from 24.150.120.87

1st and happy new years!
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Humans are such easy prey for a gargoyle!........and I need more friends on XBOX Live for 360. Anyone?
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2007 12:00:04 am EST from 69.231.208.203