Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

VAEVICTIS - White's take on Arthur is one that can't be reconciled with the search for the "real Arthur" (if there was one), and doesn't even try. White made it clear that for him, King Arthur was not "a distressed Briton hopping about in a suit of woad in the fifth century" - and even set him in an alternate Middle Ages where the real kings of England from William the Conqueror to Richard III were mythical. (Uther Pendragon served as a William the Conqueror-equivalent.)

I'm not entirely certain from your last post whether what you're looking for is stories about what Arthur might really have been like. Most of the familiar elements of the legend (the Sword in the Stone, Merlin, the Round Table, Lancelot and Guinevere's affair) come in only after Arthur was converted from a post-Roman war leader into a legendary medieval king, so I don't think that they have anything to do with the "real Arthur", and would be out of place in a story about him. (There are exceptions; Rosemary Sutcliff's "Sword at Sunset", a very good handling of what the "real Arthur" might have been like, does make Mordred - whom she names Medraut - into Arthur's son by his half-sister, and has Guinevere prove unfaithful, though here with Bedivere - whom Sutcliff calls Bedwyr - rather than Lancelot.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 8:49:48 pm EST from 4.244.211.148

Todd > Thanks for the advice! I have "Once and Future King" and long ago I read the first section, about "Wart"'s childhood. I liked it but I have no idea what Arthurian scholars think of his work. I have been burned once, (and on a subject I thought I knew a lot about) when I learned that Robert Graves' Greek Mythology work is not only eccentric (which I noticed right away) but also apparently, disreputable scholarship.

I know that it may sound strange to prefer to read an ahistorical legend set in a specific historical time period, but it is much like preferring Greek legends to be set with Bronze Age technology, or indeed, wishing a fictional setting like Gargoyles to follow some level of realism. It makes the whole thing more grounded in reality, even when the characters and events are largely fictional.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 8:00:34 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Vaevictus: DPH already mentioned one. Another thing about Brooklyn's moment in "Leader of the Pack." In addition to admitting that he has difficulty controlling himself where Demona is concerned, he also tells Lexington that it's natural to feel that way when you're betrayed, but you also have to learn to prioritize.

I know there are other moments. Right now, I can only think of two. One was in "Her Brother's Keeper," where he reminds Broadway and Lexington (who are having an argument) that they're supposed to be watching the Eyrie Building. I'm not sure if this would count or not, but in "Deadly Force," he was the one who mentioned to Goliath that Broadway had been gone for over 24 hours. He never said it outright, but I think he was suggesting that in addition to checking on Elisa, someone should also search for Broadway.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Sometimes I feel I'm alone in hating "Pirates of the Carribbean 2." Is anyone else out there?
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 6:23:45 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

VAEVICTIS - One of the most easily accessible modern-day Arthurian authors is T. H. White, who wrote "The Once and Future King". He's also one of the most influential writers on the Arthurian subject; many elements that we customarily think of as part of Arthur's story (Merlin as Arthur's boyhood teacher, Merlin living backwards, Morgause as an evil sorceress bent upon Arthur's destruction, etc.) are largely due to White.

White follows Malory closely, though besides including the elements I listed above, he fleshes out many of the supporting characters (particularly King Pellinore; I very much enjoy White's take on Pellinore's pursuit of the Questing Beast). In the latter portions, in particular, it increasingly becomes more "Malory in easier English", though there are still a few elements where White displays inventiveness - particularly near the end when Arthur, on the eve of the final battle with Mordred, sends his young page away to ensure that somebody will remember what he had set out to do: the page is the future Sir Thomas Malory.

It is nowadays customary for most Arthurian writers to set the story in the 5th and 6th centuries, out of an effort to figure out what the "real Arthur" was like, though they often undermine the attempt by including such people as Merlin and Lancelot, who had no more to do with the "real Arthur" (if there was one) than, say, Bardolph, Pistol, and Mistress Quickly had to do with Sir John Oldcastle (an early 15th century English knight who was a very loose original for Falstaff). There are very few writers who set Arthur in a mythical medieval period, especially after White (one of the exceptions is Thomas Berger, author of "Arthur Rex", which is a very interesting treatment on Arthur's story, though also strictly "adults only").

Re "Upgrade": Jackal and Hyena's transformation always creeped me out. I even tried believing for a while that they were just wearing fancy suits of armor, but in the end, their cybernetic abilities were too strong for my denial. (I didn't even have that option with Wolf!) After seeing that episode, I found myself starting to like Dingo, precisely because he was as unsettled as I was about the Pack's transformation, and had alone chosen to stay human.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 6:21:46 pm EST from 4.245.18.105

*pops in*o.O come visit my website,at phantom fireworks,see up top on web site open 24-7 all year around!! :P
Brooklex
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 6:21:16 pm EST from 68.55.175.94

About Brook, he has always shown leader skills. He always is the one taking the first step on the several situations that the trio is involve in. He is always the first to say "well let`s go!"
Demon@ - ["For as he does he becomes the prey MY pre dot dot dot aaaarggghhh cockroach cockroach !!!!!!!"]
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 6:18:18 pm EST from 200.125.112.59

Dropping in again.
Broadway>> Vaevictis Asmadi's comments about Broadway's "silly" behaviors that are none-the-less in character for him, especially the problems he causes as a detective, come rater close to my attitude about the guy. He's just that sort of character. But notice that things did work out (albeit with a lot of effort on Elisa's part)

Brooklyn and leadership>> It's subtle, but you can see it throughout the early run.

Robots and intelligence>> Todd, again I have to disagree with you.
You say that a robot can only do what it is programmed to do.
Technically true, but as a computer programmer and researcher, I can tell you that it can be very hard, even impossible*, to figure out what you actually programmed a computer to do (as opposed to what you intended). Think of all the times computers programs crash. I doubt the programmers intended that.

Given a sophisticated program that could manage governments, for instance, an unforeseen train of computation could lead the program to purge whole sections of society for what it computes is the betterment of the society as a whole. Not technically "evil" perhaps, but not *good*, wouldn't you agree?

*It has been proven that it is impossible to determine whether a computer can execute an arbitrary program to completion, for instance.
JJ Gregarius
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 6:15:58 pm EST from 12.78.60.200

Sorry for double post:

V.A. - <Brooklyn begins to show some leadership skills, but it seems like he didn't show these qualities in previous episodes. Am I just forgetting things?> I'd argue that, at that time, he was the one of the trio who showed the most leadership. During "Leader of Pack", when Lex was about to go off on his own, Brooklyn volunteered to go off with him, taking Bronx along as back-up. If he hadn't Lex would have gone off by himself. In that same episode, he also admits to having a problem with Demona. During 'Upgrade', Brooklyn was the one who stopped Lex to get him to help Goliath after Goliath was severely eletrocuted. In that same episode, Brooklyn was also the same one who stopped to realize they needed to make a plan before taking on the upgraded Pack. It wasn't a bad plan either.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 5:51:48 pm EST from 71.30.131.115

H.o.e. - <Thankfully, certain people who shall remain nameless that seem to view TGS as canon are also not around.> Thank goodness tgs isn't canon. Imo, tgs was/is a great experiment that had its successes and failures. It beats out the quality of tgs, but is not good as the original series.

As far as Demon goes, if you think she's going to reform any time soon, re-watch CoS. Macbeth gave her and the gargoyles species the best treatment around and she blew it because she couldn't afford the risk. You know what: Given the same circumstances that Demona was facing and the same decision, I may not have betrayed Macbeth, but if I hadn't dealt with that risk by then, I would have done so. She was rightfully paranoid, but didn't know how to act on it.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 5:39:57 pm EST from 71.30.131.115

Double Jeopardy:
The "Evil Clone" idea has been done to death in many places, but in this episode it plays off organically. The idea is a reasonable extrapolation of Xanatos' ongoing attempts to replace the Gargoyles, and the "previously" segment reminds of this.
I wonder what would have happened if Goliath had reacted differently to Thailog? The guy is still bent on money and so forth, but would he have gotten closer to redemption of some kind? His attempt to find feelings for Goliath indicates to me that although he was not born innocent, so to speak (thanks to programming) that he still has the potential to grow beyond what Sevarius and Xanatos made him.
But I think that Goliath was being very stubborn. He could have just said the words "I'm sorry I called you an abomination." He tried to show with actions that he was sorry, by asking Thailog to join the clan. But he didn't spell it out. If he had, would it have made a difference to Thailog's feeling? I don't know. But Goliath is one of my favorite characters, so I'm interested in seeing how their relationship develops.

Upgrade:
The cyborg Jackal and Hyena are really gross! Their arms and legs are now entirely robotic. Think about it.. they had their actual arms and legs cut off and replaced. Yuck!

Brooklyn begins to show some leadership skills, but it seems like he didn't show these qualities in previous episodes. Am I just forgetting things? Anyway, I like Brooklyn as a character.

What is the deal with Wolf? Toward the end of the episode, his head changes model for no apparent reason. I he supposed to be transforming into a wolf?
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 5:32:41 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Greg B: Thankfully, certain people who shall remain nameless that seem to view TGS as canon are also not around. *knocks on wood* ( ;

Demon@: Quick point of clarity. It was after the clock tower got bombed that Goliath went after the Hunters alone. The clan went it together after Elisa was presumed dead.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Sometimes I feel I'm alone in hating "Pirates of the Carribbean 2." Is anyone else out there?
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 2:42:43 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Now, this is a good Demona debate. Especially since it doesn't involved any of the Revisionist Demona fans. I'm really enjoying this one.

As opposed to a debate with a dense idiot on another message board who excuses and justifies everything she did.

Somewhere else, I forget where, I saw some moron say that "I don't see why Goliath and Demona couldn't have worked things out. He never gave her a chance." To which, I wonder if this guy was even watching the show at all, or just reading the bad revisionist fanfics.

I wonder about some people.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 2:36:51 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Matt: Can't say I blame Goliath there.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Sometimes I feel I'm alone in hating "Pirates of the Carribbean 2." Is anyone else out there?
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 2:25:57 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

I think the initial spark between Goliath and Demona was probably physical attraction.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 2:19:47 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

This is a question about King Arthur and the various versions of the Arthurian legend. Mostly a question for Todd but also anyone else who knows something that could help me.

Which author/version of the story would be the best one to start with, to read first? Which in your opinions are the best written, and easiest/most enjoyable to read? This may seem like a ridiculously vague and impossible question but I'll try to express what I am asking. I was reading the Pendragon archive and Todd and Greg W. were talking to each other about different authors they liked and disliked. Todd said something about Malory and later medieval writers distorting the character of Gawaine, and a particular author who undid that distortion. What I'm asking is, are there any other ways that the story has been distorted by different authors, and which version do you think is the least distorted, but still the "classical" modern version (with Lancelot, Guenivere, Merlin, Lady of the Lake, Mordred, etc.) in it? Are there any authors that set the legend in the 5th and 6th centuries, or are they all anachronistically set in medieval times?
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 12:27:18 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Sorry for the double post, i forgot to add.
I've never read any fan fics, but wouldn't be hard to spin the relationship in that light, when its pretty clear that Demona ended the relationship with her Bazooka in Awakening, Part V??
Yeah, I know. And the sentence "why didn't he give her another opportunity" comes to mind. The last time he gave her that opportunity he almost died.
But well, there also fincs in which Demona and Elisa are lovers O-o. Or that Demona turns "good" all of the sudden because a small kid smile to her. Ha!
She is a twisted (insert bad word) but she is our twisted (insert same bad word) 
And about Demona and Goliath relationship, I agree with HoE. Sometimes people who are really different make the better relations.
But anyway, Goliath and Demona maybe are not that different. In Awakening Goliath let past his only change of vengeance to save princes Katherine from falling along the other 2.
Demona save Grouch and Macbeth, allowing the Hunter to escape. Her vengeance along with him.
When Angela got almost killed Goliath said : "Soon they will be the prey MY prey" Same words that Demona said in CoS about the first Hunter. And when he goes after the hunter's airship he was pretty in a Demona´s mood.
When Elisa was apparently dead Goliath seeks nothing but revenge, he ignores his clan council, leaving them behind.
Demona has done that pretty often
In their rage, they are pretty alike.
Demon@
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 11:58:08 am EST from 200.125.112.59

I've never read any fan fics, but wouldn't be hard to spin the relationship in that light, when its pretty clear that Demona ended the relationship with her Bazooka in Awakening, Part V??
Yeah, I know. And the sentence "why didn't he give her another opportunity" comes to mind. The last time he gave her that opportunity he almost died.
But well, there also fincs in which Demona and Elisa are lovers O-o. Or that Demona turns "good" all of the sudden because a small kid smile to her. Ha!
She is a twisted (insert bad word) but she is our twisted (insert same bad word) 
Demon@
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 11:56:22 am EST from 200.125.112.59

PGF: <hmm, I just never sensed any chemistry between goliath and demona even before elisa came on the scene.>

I suppose that if Dark Ages had ever gotten made, we'd have gotten a chance to see more of that. I mean, I do see common ground between the two. They're both stubborn, and can both be set in their ways when they've decided on something (though Goliath is easier to reason with). But I've often wondered what the initial spark was for the two of them.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Sometimes I feel I'm alone in hating "Pirates of the Carribbean 2." Is anyone else out there?
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 10:19:44 am EST from 71.62.204.109

Thanks for stopping by, Greg.

And yeah, the Room has been awfully lively lately, it is nice. I give credit to Vaevictis for that.

I can't wait to see how lively the Room gets when Issue #3 comes out. Wow, a new story for us to dissect, it makes me so ancious and giddy to think about!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 8:26:47 am EST from 24.207.163.239

"Attentive" Readers shouts: "HOLY GUACAMOLE! Greg's advocating censorship!"
Greg Weisman
Have YOU been to a Gathering yet?
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 4:44:13 am EST from 68.183.95.134

Hey gang,

I love how lively (and CIVIL) the room's been. But could we please cease and desist any use of the F-word in this room? Anyone who's met me (like, say, at a Gathering) knows that I'm not exactly shy about swearing. But everything has its time and place, and I'd like this to be a room that's PG enough so that parents wouldn't mind letting their kids post here.

I'd appreciate it if those of you who have been blithely tossing it around (and you know who you are) would just self-censor themselves that little bit.

Thanks.
Greg Weisman
Have YOU been to a Gathering yet?
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 4:42:24 am EST from 68.183.95.134

"And about Demona, though i really like her, i do hate that fanfincs in wich Goliath is the evil bastard who ended the relationship"

I've never read any fan fics, but wouldn't be hard to spin the relationship in that light, when its pretty clear that Demona ended the relationship with her Bazooka in Awakening, Part V??
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
Pheon
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 2:37:55 am EST from 157.242.219.82

oh brother, okay by "them" I mean "him"(Goliath)

HoE: I know, I'm not accusing anyone of defending demona here.

hmm, I just never sensed any chemistry between goliath and demona even before elisa came on the scene.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 1:16:29 am EST from 205.188.117.68

VA: Revelations took me a while to figure out the first time I saw it. Matt worked out a plan with Goliath off camera while they were at the clock tower. He gave them his key before they got into the hotel.

One thing I really like about that episode is Elisa's admission at the end-that she didn't share her knowledge of the gargoyles with anyone because being their only human friend made her feel special-a bit of a selfish streak. It also explains why she didn't tell Derek and the rest of her family about them.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 1:08:55 am EST from 205.188.117.68

Purplegoldfish: I'm not defending Demona. Everything that's happened to her was of her own making. I'm just speculating over what cause-and-effect, why she might have made certain decisions.

As far as her and Goliath are concerned, I think maybe they were just opposites to the point where they balanced each other out. Happens in a lot of relationships. Of course, after 1,000 years of denial and projection, things change.

Vaevictus: Something I found amusing about "Outfoxed" was how Renard listed Sevarius among the employees that Xanatos "stole" from him, almost as if it were a bad thing. Ironic, considering that the doctor is a man almost devoid of integrity. I figure that if he hadn't left to work for Xanatos, Renard might have eventually fired him anyway for some reason.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I never said actors were cattle. I said they should be treated like cattle." -The legendary Alfred Hitchcock.
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 1:07:03 am EST from 71.62.204.109

Hey Greg nice video!!!
And about Demona, though i really like her, i do hate that fanfincs in wich Goliath is the evil bastard who ended the relationship.
Highnoon is one of the funniest episodes, along with her brother`s keeper and Vendettas (yeah i liked that one)
Demon@
"Look Raist, naked womans!!"
posted @ Sun, Jan 14, 2007 12:10:00 am EST from 200.125.112.59

"You played me for a fool, Bluestone! You and the gargoyle were in this together!"
"What can I say, Mace? When you're right, you're right."

Goliath was in on Matt's plan all along.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 11:54:23 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Sorry for a double post. But nobody has posted in a while.
I did go back and read the High Noon memo (thank goodness, no spoilers this time) and now I finally understand Coldstone and Macbeth's comments when Demona and Elisa fought. Heh.

I watched Revelations and now I'm really confused. Matt is supposed to be a good guy but he went and gave Goliath to the Illuminati, knowing that they were going to imprison or experiment on him or whatever. Was he planning all along to break him out again, or did he only change his mind in the Hotel? If so, why didn't he tell Goliath what was happening? And if not why does Goliath still trust him afterwards. Can anybody please explain what I saw? Because I think I missed something.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 11:47:36 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Yes, he said first something about "Here we have another of Gen-U-Tech's pitiful and hideous creations." Or somesuch.

I would like to hope though, that Goliath explained to him later that he's acually a natural life-form called a Gargoyle. After Hunter's Moon, it might be helpful to have an extremely rich guy like that who might be an ally.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 8:57:36 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Vaevictis : Well, eleventh century Scottish history has always been one of my strong points, even before Gargoyles, and I've never seen the name spelled as 'Luach' anywhere else.
Spen
"Never put off 'til tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow" - Mark Twain
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 8:44:59 pm EST from 216.248.119.208

I also enjoyed "Outfoxed", Vaevictis. A part of it that I especially find amusing is the way that Renard's lecturing Goliath. He's confronted here with a living gargoyle with batlike wings, a tail, and all, and proceeds to address him as if he's an ordinary human. I suspect that his concern about taking responsibility for your actions is so strong that hearing Goliath say "It was not my fault" was enough to make him forget everything else about the guy (though, judging from his mention of Gen-U-Tech, he probably thought that Goliath was a Mutate rather than an actual living gargoyle).

I liked Goliath's comment as well that machines and robots can do only what they are programmed to do and that it takes living beings - whether human or gargoyle - to make moral decisions and choose between right and wrong. (This is why I don't take seriously the notion of "evil robots".)

And, of course, there's the big revelation at the end about Fox: a) being Renard's daughter and b) pregnant. Both of which surprised me the first time that I saw the episode, though they also make sense and were well-prepared for (Renard's name was an obvious hint; so was the casual way that Fox talked about him during her judo match with Xanatos).

Not as much to say about "High Noon", though it's got some fun moments in it, including Officer Morgan's finest hour (too bad that he'll never know just how much he helped out). I still think that it was a good thing that Demona had made herself invisible to the crowd at Belvedere Castle: the way that she was dressed at the time, she'd have had a lot of males staring at her as they passed by (and probably be so busy staring at her that they'd wind up walking into trees or lampposts).
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 8:36:54 pm EST from 4.244.213.254

Demona is without a question totally fucked up. She is still tragic, though. She is not a tragic *hero* of course, but she has that huge flaw, her complete inability to admit that she is responsible for all the crap that has happened to ruin her life and killed everybody around her. She is the one who caused the massacre, the fall of Moray, the death of her last clan at Canmore's hands, and she's also responsible for getting Gillecomgain worked up about Gargoyles, although I don't imagine that he would have been a decent guy otherwise. She's interesting all right, in the way that psychopaths and cannibals are interesting -- morbidly.

Macbeth has a tragic flaw too. I was thinking about City of Stone, and realizing that Macbeth is really bad at communicating. He thinks of the worst things to say at the worst times. "Gruoch, go away. You aren't worth it." comes to mind. Also, although Demona should have waited to hear the rest of the conversation or at least confronted him before leaving, Macbeth still chose a really bad time to chasten Luoch for not considering every option. He could have waited until the options were actually sensible ones that he himself was going to consider (if we take his word to Demona after the fact).
There was another time he said something rather dense but I forget what.

Blaqthourne > You have a point about time travel. When one travels to the past, one turns one's personal time-stream backwards relative to the rest of the world. That totally messes up thermodynamics. And as a result, your future becomes part of your past and so, it is possible that you lose free will.
However, I don't think it *proves* that you lose free will. Because when viewed from the outside (as viewing a drawing from above the paper), all events in time are equally immutable or mutable. But that (nor the omniscience of God) does not abrogate the free will of the beings within time.
A time paradox, such as Xanatos fortune, cannot be laid to any actual source, but is it possible that a person's actions, even within a paradox, can still have an origin in free will? It is perhaps the same as asking how actions are determined at a quantum level when the uncertainty overwhelms the causality.

I watched High Noon and Outfoxed today and I did NOT read the dang rambles.

High Noon was rather confusing. At the end, after all that running around about Coldstone, all I could say was "Buh?" I still am not sure I get it, and this is *after* the spoilers about Avalon from the CoS rambles. Which is just as well, I'm sure Greg meant it to be confusing. But I liked it I guess. I mean I didn't dislike it. Macbeth and Demona's reactions at the end were funny. And Morgan's reaction to Elisa babbling about normal life and monsters and worrying about "them." Also for some reason, I thought it was funny when Macbeth asked Demona if transforming was supposed to hurt that much.

Animation Nitpicks!
*The Weird Sisters' hair is all messed up inside the virtual reality. First they are all blonde, then they get the correct colors, only to merge into Desdemona again but with black hair!
*The head that Demona found in City of Stone was backwards from Coldstone's actual face.
*Desdemona has a belly button. None of the other Gargs have one, and I don't think that egg-layers in general should have belly buttons. She should get that looked at, except she's dead.
*Demona put the disk in backwards.

I really liked Outfoxed. I had no idea what would happen and was rather worried when Goliath got captured. I expected that this Renard guy was a villain, since he had captured Goliath and was being nasty, but then he turned out to be rather a decent guy. And I realised that things might go well if he managed to make any dent in Goliath's stubbornness. Which he did. Goliath learned something.
It says something for Renard that he was willing to give Goliath a second chance. I would expect a decent, open-minded person to give Goliath at least a token first chance, if he wasn't attacking them at the time, but many folks would not give a *human* a second chance, after assaulting their property, blowing up their billion-dollar ship, and injuring a lot of employees. Of course, it spoke for Goliath's case that the robots attacked him -- after he was out of the cage.

By the way, in the City of Stone rambles, Greg W. mentioned that he thinks "Luoch" isn't an actual variation of Luloch (like Malcolm is of Maol Chalvim) but that it is just a mistake. Does anybody knowledgable about Scottish history know if Luoch is a usable variation of Luloch?
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 8:04:19 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Vaevictis - Re: Macbeth's cooments to his son Luach. I can partially understand your feelings towards his comments in reference to betraying Demona & the Gargoyles. Macbeth had a few things to consider. 1) He had his father-in-law and advisor Bodhe standing there beside him who had suggested getting rid of the gargoyles and he had to consider his family relationship, but 2) and more importantly - by his comment "a good king considers all his options-and then decides" or something along those lines(sorry, it's been a while) By saying that, he was trying to teach his Son an important lesson in leadership. But-admittedly, if Macbeth had any tact, he would have considered his options then and there and said out loud to his his son that he was right. That the gargoyles had been important allies and friends for too long to let fear make them now turn against them.
Wingless
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 7:56:00 pm EST from 74.105.128.170

Great points, Purplegoldfish, I also think Demona is just nuts. To betray Macbeth to Canmore is crazy, but Demona isn't very rational. I think she is always so convinced the world is against her that she doesn't trust anyone ever. Is she tragic? I think so. Is it usually her own fault? Absolutly. Anyway, she certainly makes life worse for those around her.

On the other hand, I do think that Goliath and Demona would've stayed together had things been different. Goliath is intensely loyal. Anyway, we can't see all ends, who knows?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 7:21:54 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

VAEVICTIS - The element that makes me see Canmore as a villain in his own right, rather than just some misguided young man who doesn't realize that his father wasn't worth avenging (mind you, I wonder how how interested he'd have been in avenging Duncan if he'd been permitted to become King of Scotland immediately upon Duncan's death), is the aforesaid act of stabbing Macbeth in the back. Even by the standards of the time, that was cowardly and dishonorable. He didn't have the courage to fight Macbeth fairly, even though Macbeth would clearly have fought *him* fairly.

Incidentally, there are a few other comments about "City of Stone" that I forgot to make this morning. These will be familiar to many of the people here, but since you've probably never seen them before, Vaevictis, I think that you might find them interesting:

1. There's one echo of Shakespeare that isn't explicitly brought up in "City of Stone", but is still there if you look for it. In the play, Macbeth cannot be slain by "one of woman born", which is fulfilled through the man who slays him, Macduff, being "from his mother's womb untimely ripped" (i.e., born via Caesarean section). The same holds true, in a different way, for the Macbeth of "Gargoyles"; he can only be slain by Demona, who was hatched from a gargoyle egg. That counts as just as good a loophole as the circumstances of Macduff's birth, if not better.

2. Demona sees Princess Katharine and the Magus loading up the eggs on the wagon and going off with them. Now, we know that they'd had a change of heart concerning gargoyles, and had been entrusted with their care by Goliath, but Demona doesn't know that. From her perspective, these humans are looting the rookery - but she makes no effort to come to the rescue of her clan's children. She just watches them being taken away. I've often wondered if her repressed guilt over the Wyvern Massacre includes that as well as her failure to warn the rest of the gargoyles.

3. Bodhe's advice that Macbeth should abandon Demona and her clan in the hope of making peace with the English, arguing that the English are only invading Scotland to finish the job that they'd begun in England, is (in my opinion, at least) proven invalid in the events that follow. For after Demona and her clan desert Macbeth, the English *still* go ahead and sack Castle Moray, even though it's hard to believe that they could remain ignorant about the gargoyles' abandoning Macbeth. And they apparently stay around to help Canmore defeat Luach, at which point all of the gargoyles (except for Demona, and she's fled) are dead. I'd say that the English most likely did have other reasons for invading Scotland besides a hatred for gargoyles, and that they'd have simply found some other justification for continuing the war if Macbeth *had* abandoned Demona.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 6:35:31 pm EST from 4.245.19.234

Speaking of Demona, I made a music video dedicated to her several months back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE-z4zdHZis

Feedback is, as always, appreciated. The song is Green Day's "Blvd of Broken Dreams"
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 6:25:05 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Oh, tell me about it. I love Demona as much as anyone else. She is my favorite character, hell, I'm the one who talks about how great a character she is on the season one DVD.

But, I love the character of Demona for who she is, not what I want her to be. She is a villain, and a damned good one. But more than that, she is a great character. Very, very complex. Do I sympathise with her? Yes. I do. But, that does not mean I excuse her for any of her fuck ups.

I think she is indeed capable of redemption, but not without fucking up a lot more in the interim. And not without tragedy playing a part. I don't think Angela will live long enough to see it.

Recently, on the imdb Gargoyles message board (which, is completely retarded, btw) there was a discussion on who is smarter... Demona or Xanatos. And, most of the people there said Demona simply because she lived longer. Let's just say my jaw dropped when I read that. Because it is completely wrong.

Xanatos, Demona, Thailog, and everyone else. Screw Batman, the Gargoyles has the best rogues gallery.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 6:16:20 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

HoE: Yeah, I forgot about her visiting herself in Vows. I suppose that was her inspiration. But still, she should have considered the very real possibility that the vikings were going to destroy the clan-especially considering that the captain was the only one who was going to stand between them.

And you know what? She did consider it-SHE RAN AWAY! Obviously she didn't completely trust the captain. So what does that say about her? She's a coward...and she had the chance to tell the rest of the clan to retreat with her-but she didn't because she was afraid she would get in trouble- so she consciously risked her own family's life for her own selfishness and cowardice.
So really, when you think about it, she has no right to complain about how humans are so dangerous to gargoyles when she poses just as much a threat to them herself. Like I said, this does make her a very interesting villain and makes for some great stories; but I just don't sympathize with her at all.

Whitbourne: haha, well I'm glad someone agrees with me. Demona may be a survivor-but it has nothing to do with her intelligence or common sense.

as for Goliath/Demona: I know Goliath most certainly has a dark side-but I was thinking more of their codes of honor. Goliath might kill out of revenge for a loved one; but Demona will kill out of revenge for her own subconscious hatred of herself...there's a difference. Goliath is very grounded while Demona has a very warped view of how things should be-even in the middle ages.

Here's something I was actually thinking about the other day that has to do with this conversation:

If, hypothetically, the massacre never happened and the clan lived out their lives in Wyvern, would Goliath and Demona have stayed mated for the rest of their lives?

I think no, they wouldn't have. They would have stayed together for a longer time than they should have maybe. Goliath would be too stubborn to give Demona up based on the "Gargoyles mate for life" addage. But I think something would inevitably happen to break them apart or at least cause them to fall out of love with each other. Even then, Demona's views were too radically different from Goliath's.

The episode "long way to morning" comes to mind. Demona went grudgingly with hudson and Goliath to get the grimorum. the whole time she complained about going to save one of the only humans who actually gave a rat's @ss about the gargoyles. So even then she was screwed up. Not only that but she was annoying Goliath about taking command and insulting hudson while within his earsot. Seriously, If I were Goilath I would have told her "either shut the hell up or leave!"

Greg B: I agree she's a very interesting villain. But that's what she is, a villain. I guess I get tired of hearing people say things like "oh poor Demona, she's had such a tragic life; it isn't her fault; goliath should have given her a second chance; blah blah yadda yadda"
But I do agree that characters with flaws make for much more interesting characters. I like how both the villains AND the heroes have flaws in the show.

Okay I'm talking too much today-I need to shut up lol
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 5:59:10 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Demona is, indeed, a fuck-up. But, that is part of what makes her such a great character. All her tragic failings. She is responsible for her own misery, it's a fact. She knows it too, she just won't acknowledge and face it.

I still think she's a great character, one of my favorites in the realm of fiction. For many reasons. Perfect characters are boring... there's a reason I never read a Superman comic in my life.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 5:22:06 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Purplegoldfish> Thank you. Thank you. All this time I've wondered if I'm the only person who thinks Demona is a complete idiot half the time. She's had a bloody millennium to get her act together and she's still just as stunned as she was in the tenth century, with all of her problems of her own making and making new ones (like the Hunters) all along the way.

She's like someone who sits on a stove and then complains that her backside is burning, as we say in the Maritimes.
Whitbourne
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 3:47:19 pm EST from 142.167.211.114

PGF: As far as the Wyvern massacre is concerned, Demona was probably haunted by what she'd been shown by herself. She knew that the destruction of her clan was coming, but didn't know how or when. I'm wondering if she thought that it would come at the hands of the humans who already lived in the castle, and was desperate to be rid of them. Which would explain her trusting the captain. But on the other hand, one guy against a horde of Vikings is not good odds. So who can say what she was thinking?

As for what Demona and Goliath saw in each other, we've seen that Goliath has his dark side. He has a better grip on it, I think, but he's not above murdering someone out of revenge.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I never said actors were cattle. I said they should be treated like cattle." -The legendary Alfred Hitchcock.
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 3:35:15 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

oops, when I said Duncan, I meant to say Canmore. I always get those two confused-I'm bad with names ;)
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 2:45:02 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Siren: I agree with your assessment of Maggie. She really has the potential to grow into a heroic person.

on Demona: Ok, I hope I don't get flamed for saying this...but IMO Demona is an Idiot. I know she's an interesting and tragic villain and all that, but she's a complete idiot. I mean, she's been friends with Macbeth for 37 YEARS! That's a long time. So she hears one little snippet of converstaion (and didn't even bother to stick around to hear the rest of it) and she immediatly runs to the ENEMY to betray Macbeth...

Yeah I can understand why she would be upset with all her trust issues but why in the hell would she go to Duncan?? Didn't she even stop to think that MAYBE he would destroy her clan along with Macbeth's army seeing as how her gargoyles probably killed a bunch of duncan's men. Not only that but she betrayed Luach too...the guy that ADVOCATED for her and the other gargoyles againtst his father! WTF!

She hardly trusted her ally, so why did she think she could trust her enemy??
I seriously wonder how she survived up until the immortality spell seeing as how she got all her friends around her killed.

You would think she would have learned from the Wyvern massacre. I mean she honestly thought that ONE human could keep a whole band of vikings from smashing her clan...yeah

I guess we're supposed to feel some pity for her...but I don't. Not an ounce. She brought everything upon herself with absolutely no good intentions. I never even felt sorry for her when she cried over her smashed clan. I felt bad for everyone she hurt; Goliath (I honestly don't know what they saw in each other), pretty much every gargoyle she ever came in contact with, macbeth, grouch, luach, the three hunter kids...even Gil in a way.

Sorry for the blabbing guys lol, I didn't mean for it to be this long ;)
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 2:40:21 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

I don't know about the modern Canmores, but Malcolm Canmore was mostly just avenging his father. He was probably too young at the time to fully realize that his father had Findlaech murdered and then started the war with Macbeth for essentially no good reason. His barons would hardly have spun the situation that way. I see Malcolm III more as a victim of really bad circumstances than a bad guy. Although stabbing Macbeth in the back wasn't so great, I guess.

Gillecomgain... yeah, well getting your face disfigured certainly sucks, but it's no reason for genocide. He's a lot like Demona, definately.
And he mistreats his wife.

The commentary is going to wait until after Hunter's Moon AND the Journey. Greg has started putting spoilers in the rambles now, so I can't even read those. >:(

One thing about Duncan, is that not only was his dispute with Macbeth a total Oedipus (or rather, Laius) moment, but he didn't have to interpret the prophesy that way. It never occurs to him that the Fair Folk like to maniupulate mortals and that three mysterious disappearing witches probably can't be trusted? Or for all he knew, the prophecy was about a Norman or Viking invasion. Maybe he was going to die by Viking hands, and Canmore a year later with no heirs except Macbeth. The fact that Macbeth saved his life, could not be explained *at all* except by loyalty. But he didn't care.
Of course, he didn't need a prophecy for an excuse. He had Findlaech killed even before that.

Xanatos and Goliath > Yet, how they acted was very in character for both of them. I liked the interaction, I though it was interesting.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 1:49:17 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Demona is a real interesting character for all of her tragicness as a villian...she brought it on herself.

Mr. Freeze for example is my favorite tragic villian. He did ask for what he got, but everything he does is to save his wife...even at the cost of 100s of lives, so long as he has the chance to bring his wife back to life. If it wasn't for his crimesprees, I always thought he and Batman would make good partners.

But Demona, she's angry with the "betrayls" of the humans. Never seeing she caused it, that she was the one who betrayed them. And then slashing a child and blaming humanity for his wounds...Low and ignorant. I really though she was a real jackass for that one. But after that, I saw that her slashing of his face set off a whole new story of "The Hunter", that added a wonderful touch to the series. About hatred and revenge. The Hunter(s) and Demona are very much alike, though they refuse to admit it. Though I feel Demona had more reason to go on a revenge craze then Gil. Demona felt the humans caused the destruction of her clan. While Gil got 3 scratches on the face...not really revenge worthy, IMO. And certainly not revenge worthy on the entire race of gargoyles. Which was nice later to see that in Hunter's Moon with the three Hunters. You really had 3 different aspects within the identity of The Hunter.
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 12:31:33 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

Jurgan: Still, it is a badass moment. Someone like Shredder or Megatron would probably start begging. Xanatos simply says: "Go ahead. Without me, you'd still be gathering moss." Awesome moment.

Vaevictus: <The scene with Demona at the castle was pretty sad. It was so clear that she felt guilty, but she buried her feelings. But at the same time, she was so unwilling to admit her part in the betrayal that she wouldn't even warn her siblings. She just left them to die.> Demona's complicated. That's why we love her. Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but that's why I love her character, anyway. One of the best moments in the four-parter comes when we learn what her access code was. She had millions of words to choose from. And yet she chose the word that sums up her life. Maybe subconsciously, she's admitting she has a problem? Of course, she then goes right back to being her lovable old self. Because, as you said, she's a master at burying her feelings. Consciously, she admits nothing.

<What's Gillecomgain's problem, complaining about the chores? He lived on a farm, what else did he expect to be doing?> Checking the cows and milking the stables as opposed to the other way around? Still, every time I watch that scene where Demona wounds him and says, "That'll teach you humans to betray us," I always feel like saying, "Yeah, Demona, you slashed a kid in the face. Score one for all gargoyle-kind." ( ;

<Macbeth doesn't care at all about all the humans in Manhattan? I suppose he assumes that with Demona dead, the threat will be gone anyway.> At heart, I think Macbeth is a good person, but his desire for suicide is overriding everything else.

By the way, have you watched the episodes with the commentary?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I never said actors were cattle. I said they should be treated like cattle." -The legendary Alfred Hitchcock.
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 10:40:33 am EST from 71.62.204.109

Todd> Wow, that was interesting.
Demon@
"Look Raist, naked womans!!"
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 10:33:33 am EST from 200.125.112.59

My own comments on "City of Stone".

This is one of my favorite "Gargoyles" stories, which is odd, because one of its core elements is a concept that I usually dislike when it crops up in an animated series: an episode that focuses almost entirely on the origins of a couple of the antagonists, with the protagonists having a relatively small role. This may be because I was interested in the figure of Macbeth (the original one of Scottish history and Shakespeare) long before "Gargoyles" came out, and was particularly excited that the treatment of his story in the flashbacks drew on the actual history rather than just the Shakespeare play.

I agree with you, Vaevictis, that Gillecomgain and Duncan (and I include Canmore there as well) are thoroughly villainous. They make an interesting contrast with the later Hunters (I suppose that this counts as a spoiler) who seem more tragic than evil.

I find it interesting that Margot recognizes that the gargoyles are asking her a question, but still believes, at the time of "The Journey", that they're nothing more than animals. (Maybe she was too frightened to consider the ramifications, or maybe she thought that it was parrot-speech.)

I've sometimes wondered whether Demona was aware of the existence of the other gargoyle clans at the time of the present-day portions of "City of Stone". Since her scheme involves slaughtering the only other gargoyles left in the modern world besides herself that we know of at that point in the series, it would take a lot of the point out of exterminating humanity, since she'd be the only gargoyle left after that (if immortal), and even if she didn't kill Goliath and his clan, their numbers would be too few (especially with only one female) to propagate the species anew. Not that it matters, since Demona's attempts to wipe out humanity are ultimately based more on revenge anyway. (I suspect that, if somebody did approach Demona on the issue and she actually gave some sort of response, it would be along the lines of, if the gargoyles *are* doomed to extinction, at least she can make certain that the humans won't enjoy the fruits of their genocide.)

One interesting tidbit about Bodhe and Gruoch: according to the actual genealogies of the royal families of 11th century Scotland, they were descended from a previous king of Scotland, Kenneth III, the son of Kenneth II's older brother Duff, who became king after overthrowing Constantine (the Constantine of "Avalon Part One"), and was himself overthrown a few years later by Malcolm II, who was Duncan's grandfather and predecessor. This gives an interesting new look at Duncan's actions in Part Two, where he's arranged to have Gruoch married off to Gillecomgain. As Kenneth III's heir, she would have a better claim to the Scottish throne than Duncan, who inherited the throne from the guy that had deposed and murdered Kenneth, and he certainly wouldn't want Macbeth taking advantage of that if he married her! So marrying her off to his own henchman Gillecomgain seems safer (until Gillecomgain starts getting too independent, which gives another reason for why Duncan would want to get rid of Gillecomgain - to keep *him* from exploiting his marriage to Gruoch).

One of my favorite touches about the Weird Sisters is how they keep on popping up even in the background, as serving-wenches or nursemaids. (Or policewomen in the modern world. I think that the guy whom they're talking to in that disguise, by the way, is Billy and Susan's father from "The Thrill of the Hunt". At least, his character design looks similar.)

The thing that fascinates me most about Goliath and Xanatos's team-up is how much it defies the conventional rules of hero-villain team-ups in animation. Usually, the hero spots the magnitude of the disaster first, approaches the villain about a temporary alliance, but the villain refuses until the situation becomes so desperate that he has to yield. He offers help grudgingly, and once the emergency is over, cheerfully betrays the hero. Here, it's Xanatos who proposes the truce (Goliath, in fact, is initially more in a mood to rip Xanatos limb from limb for helping Demona, until Xanatos calmly points out to him "Do you want vengeance, or a solution?"). He works hard at it, too, in searching for a way to break Demona's spell, and even parts with the gargoyles at the end in a reasonably amiable (under the circumstances) fashion rather than trying to spring a surprise attack upon them. Of course, it definitely fits in with how sensible and practical he is.

One nit in the episode: I still wonder how Demona was able to conceal that secret entrance to the great hall when the castle was being moved from Scotland to New York.

Returning to the early Hunters: Duncan and Canmore both display a certain amount of cowardice in the episode. Duncan constantly gets other people (such as Gillecomgain) to do his dirty work for him, and even when he faces Macbeth in battle in Part Three, attempts to have his henchman attack Macbeth from behind (which Demona quickly foils). Canmore, instead of defeating Macbeth in fair fight, waits for him to get into an argument with Demona, and then stabs him in the back. (I also wonder whether his sparing Gruoch had far more to do with the approach of Luach's reinforcements than with any sense of mercy and forbearance.) It does feel almost like an ancestral foreshadowing of Jon Canmore's own cowardice many episodes later. (One can even bring in the Hunter's mask as a mark of cowardice on Duncan and Canmore's part, in light of Goliath's own comment about hiding one's face behind a hood in "The Journey".)

The encounter with the Weird Sisters in Part Three leads to a particularly notable reversal of the play: their words, instead of manipulating Macbeth to turn against Duncan as in Shakespeare, manipulate Duncan to turn against Macbeth!
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 7:42:42 am EST from 4.244.214.188

Matt> Isn't that, the life experiences bit, basically the same as the joke that goes something like "Someone broke into my house and replaced everything with exact duplicates"? What you've set up is pointless. What I think you're getting at is a different situation where everything is the exact same. If everything is the exact same, you can't have a different situation.

Time travel> I've said this before, but to me, the "you did it because you did it" version actually eliminates the possibility of true time travel, where you make the choice to travel through time. You have no choice in the matter because "you did it because you did it". It may seem like a choice to YOU, but you really didn't. What if the time that you "choose" to time travel is actually during the time of some future person's time travelling to the past? Since this is the past to him, your decision is already made since it is a past event, and history is immutable. You couldn't have made a choice since that "choice" had already happened in the future person's past, which is your present.

Anyone know how the Law of Conservation of Energy would apply to time travelling?
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: Kids Return OST
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 5:25:56 am EST from 207.207.40.250

In regards to Xanatos daring Goliath to kill him: He probably was pretty confident that Goliath wouldn't, but I refuse to believe he'd bet his life on correctly assessing the character of someone he met just a few days ago. This is Mister Contingency Plan, remember? I'm absolutely sure he had a backup- maybe an extra Steel Clan robot ready to fly out and pick him up should Goliath decide otherwise.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 3:04:13 am EST from 68.54.23.62

"I'm really finding the voiceover in the opening credits annoying. I understand why they put that in the show, for people who missed Season One, but I'm tired of hearing Goliath say it over and over!"

As a fan of 12-soon-to-be-13 years, I can honestly say that Goliath's Prologue never gets old, but that is definitely just me. Whenever my family or friends watch, they just want to skip the beginning.
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
Pheon
posted @ Sat, Jan 13, 2007 12:05:31 am EST from 157.242.215.181

I think I agree with Matt -- free will and fate are a paradox of sorts, but be can be "fated" to always make our own decisions. Kind of like Goliath, who technically is still under the spell Demona cast in Temptation.

I disagree that an immutable past negates free will. What happened happened and you can't change it, but at the time it happened, it was most certainly your own will and choice how you acted.

Ah, I just watched City of Stone. But I have GOT to stop reading the archives and the wiki. I totally spoiled the Weird Sisters' girl scout disguise for myself.

What a great episode. So much material and history and stuff. Character history, midevial history, magic and Shakespeare. All great fun.
I remembered a fair bit from when it originally aired, but I think I missed part 1 the first time around. Also, until I came to S8 I had no idea that City of Stone is actually more historically accurate than Shakespeare. So I thought it rather peculiar to depict Macbeth as a hero. Now of course I understand -- and these episodes succeed in making him look like a hero -- even though he's a suicidal nut-job, too. :)

*The scene with Demona at the castle was pretty sad. It was so clear that she felt guilty, but she buried her feelings. But at the same time, she was so unwilling to admit her part in the betrayal that she wouldn't even warn her siblings. She just left them to die.
*The part where Macbeth was defeated was kind of sad, too. But I don't entirely blame Demona for betraying him. What he said to Luach sounded pretty dire. I would have been pretty upset, too. Though she should have confronted him about it first.
*The scene where Demona turns to stone, just before the Vikings come, was very well-done visually.
*Did anyone else notice that Findlaech's hair was black when he was playing chess, and then suddenly it turned grey for the rest of the episode? At first I thought that was his father-in-law the king, instead.
*Bodhe IS a coward. And a treacherous one, too. He's not a total jerk, though.
*Gruoch is clearly just a trophy wife/political object to Gillecomgain. He's happy to kill her to save his own butt. He and Duncan seem to lack any redeming qualities. Duncan even wanted to kill the Gargoyles, for no reason whatsoever.
*Even after the massacre, there was still something good left in Demona. She saved Macbeth and Gruoch instead of taking her vengeance.
*What's Gillecomgain's problem, complaining about the chores? He lived on a farm, what else did he expect to be doing?
*I thought it was kind of sweet when Macbeth and Gruoch were playing chess and they both started blushing.
*I like the designs/models of the Gargoyles in Demona's clan, especially the ones with beaks. I like beaked Gargoyles.
*The Weird Sisters give Demona a few chances to overcome her hatred and she totally rejects them until she's really up a creek.
*Holy cow, but they look really ugly as Gargoyles. And Demona doesn't think it's the least suspicious that three Gargoyles look totally identical? Garg twins are rare enough, I suspect triplets may be impossible. Then again, maybe she simply kept her opinion to herself. Nearly extinct creatures can't be so picky.
*The whole Macbeth/Luach king thing was kind of an Oedipus type thing. Macbeth only became king because Duncan believed the prophecy and tried to kill him.

*Goliath doesn't know what's up but his instincts are good. He suspects something bad and tells them to keep the Elisa statue safe, just incase. Smart of him.
*When Brooklyn poked the Three Sisters and they crumbled, it was really creepy! It was pretty gruesome with all the half-smashed body parts at Castle Wyvern, too. Somehow, the Gargoyles don't ask until the very end of the episode, what are these creatures? They are pretty distracted with the spell crisis, though.
*The City of Stone spell somehow includes the Spell of Humility in it. But the humans don't burst out of stone, they just silently turn back. Odd.
*Does anybody else think the couple that Demona smashed looked just like Brendan and Margot?
*Demona shoots some poor woman's arms off and then leaves the rest of her standing there! That's so horrible! Ugh.
*I love the reporter's reaction to the one woman who was awake at night. Though I'm not surprised he didn't believe her.
*I wonder if the Mutates turned to stone. Considering they were homeless, they probably didn't have access to a TV, so maybe it wasn't ever an issue. But I wonder if the spell could have affected them at all.

*I love Brooklyn's comment to Margot. He's got a great wit.
*I think it's sad that even when the Gargoyles very explicitly and obviously save them, when there's no other possible interpretation of the the event, Brendan and Margot are still afraid. But I wonder if Goliath's reaction to the Sisters is the root of Margot's later obsessions with Gargoyles eating children, or whatever she thinks.

*Demona has a clever idea to trick Xanatos. And we finally see Owen show some emotion. I'd bet that when he became Owen, he didn't expect that he'd be risking his life!
*But why does the stone-by-night spell paralyze Owen? I thought she was using some other spell first, but she never re-recorded. I don't get it. I guess according to the ramble, it was just a mistake. But whatever she cast on him, shouldn't have worked except that he didn't follow Xanatos' advice. He didn't close his eyes.
*I like Xanatos' unruffled reaction to the street full of statues.
*Xanatos wants to break the spell but he says it is unsafe to mix magic. Interesting... was he that expecting otherwise, Puck would be willing to use fae magic?
*Why did Macbeth choose to dress up like the guy who killed his father? And why did he think Demona would be fooled? I wasn't for a moment. His voice is recognizable, for one thing.
*The Weird Sisters are wandering around spying on everybody. And what are they talking about as they watch the broadcast?
*Goliath and Xanatos really teaming up together. (more than in Eye of the Beholder) The world is ending! Heh.
*I really expected Matt to find out about the Gargoyles in Silver Falcon. I still wonder when he's going to finally meet them.
*Owen turns back to flesh and continues yapping into the phone with the cord cut. That was funny.
*Macbeth doesn't care at all about all the humans in Manhattan? I suppose he assumes that with Demona dead, the threat will be gone anyway.
*I'm really finding the voiceover in the opening credits annoying. I understand why they put that in the show, for people who missed Season One, but I'm tired of hearing Goliath say it over and over!
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 11:39:29 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Todd - <Personally, I'm wondering whether it's not wiser to avoid the SLG site altogether, if visiting it and not finding an official release date for the comic winds up getting us nervous about another delay.> It's a catch-22. I/we would like to know when the expected release date is as opposed to knowing if there is an expected release date. As long I keep in mind that I'm looking for a 'when' not an 'if', I'm alright.

An explanation of cold cut (quotes from slg blog at http://slg-news.livejournal.com/): Big thanks to readers and retailers who made SLG Cold Cut's top publisher in 2006! Cold Cut is one of the dwindling number of independent distributors left in the comic book industry, which is dominated by megalithic Diamond Comic Distributors. Matt High from Cold Cut posted the distributor's 300 top-selling books and merchandise for 2006, and SLG products occupy 60 slots. That's 20%! Yes, just the exact inverse of Marvel and DC's 80% domination of Diamond's top 300, but to my mind it's far more healthy for the top selling company to have 20% of the market than somewhere between 35% and 50%.

Apparently, the goal of the guy running slg isn't complete domination, but 20% of the total market share. That raises a question for me: why does he think a more fragmented market is a better thing.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 11:37:01 pm EST from 162.40.54.239

Greg B: Well, he did dare Goliath to kill him once. And Goliath didn't.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I never said actors were cattle. I said they should be treated like cattle." -The legendary Alfred Hitchcock.
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 9:10:12 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

DPH - Personally, I'm wondering whether it's not wiser to avoid the SLG site altogether, if visiting it and not finding an official release date for the comic winds up getting us nervous about another delay.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 8:47:53 pm EST from 4.244.214.46

Maggie has some growing to do. She is a woman beaten. Life hasn't seemed to deal her a good set of cards and its worn hard on her. She has low self-esteem and feels powerless. She is also easily manipulated and gulliable...At least for the first two episodes with her.

She is growing. She stood up to Brooklyn several times. When Fang pushed her at Brooklyn, she resisted and fought him for a little while. She is braver than SHE thinks. I have no doubt that as she appears more in the comics that she will grow into a stronger woman and blossom. One day, be a second-in-command for Talon. And perhaps one day be a good fighter, though I doubt she will ever be the type to start fights. She will still always seek the alternative, non-aggressive route when possible. But she has certainly proven herself to me. She just has to prove it to herself.
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 8:40:40 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

Yep, Xanatos has Goliath pegged.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 8:37:26 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Todd: I'm not saying I would ask that question. Just wondering if someone has.

Purplegoldfish: Maggie struck me as being somewhat pacifistic. Which I'm not saying is a bad leadership quality (history has shown otherwise), but when you're half-man, half-animal (something that would put you at odds with a large percentage of the world), the leader should be someone who wouldn't hesitate to throw a punch if necessary. Derek might not be very smart at times, but one good quality he has is that I don't think he even wanted to be a leader, but assumed responsibility because he saw that someone had to.

Concerning time-travel: Another idea I have is that Xanatos just had a feeling, based upon Goliath's character, that he wouldn't strand anyone in time. It's the same reason Goliath made the honorable choice over his own satisfaction back in "Awakening, Part Two": It's who he is.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I never said actors were cattle. I said they should be treated like cattle." -The legendary Alfred Hitchcock.
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 8:21:56 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

B & CF> Like it or not, that's the way it works. And frankly, I like it. As others have said (including Greg Weisman himself) time travel doesn't make much sense any other way. I do understand your point, however. I wonder how much "free will" actually exists. Since I am who I am, and my life experiences are my own, if I was put in the exact same circumstances at the exact same time in my life, in the exact same mood I'm in and all that, would'nt I always make the exact same decision? To me we always have a choice, but our choices are the ones we were always "destined" to choose. That's just how I think, and apparently that is how the GU works.

I mean, I'm sure Goliath felt he was making a choice when he chose to take Xanatos back to 1995 with him, but really it was the choice he would always make.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 8:19:33 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Harvestor> Is that an African or European swallow? Seeing as King Arthur is part of the Gargoyles universe, maybe he'll get asked that somewhere along the line.

Matt> The more I think about the time-travel laws Weisman's used, the more I don't like it. No matter how I think about it, the more and more it points towards hard determinism. The line "but you won't because you didn't" pretty much says that.
On why Goliath actually did get Xanatos back, it seems to me that Xanatos was convincing enough to Goliath regarding how time travel works to make Goliath believe that he would in fact get the entire party back to their present time. Whether or not time travel actually works that way (discounting the fact that Weisman is the "God" of their universe and says so), is debatable.
Oh, and interesting response date.
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 7:40:11 pm EST from 207.207.40.250

Why is there almost nothing I've ever heard of on that list? Who the heck are Cold Cut? What comics are eligible to be on this list? I ask because none of the major company titles, which certainly outsold SLG, are listed, so I wonder how much meaning that list has.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 6:59:12 pm EST from 68.54.23.62

Check out Cold Cut's top 300 of 2006:

http://community.livejournal.com/coldcutnews/11891.html

Gargoyles #1 was #104.

Of course, slg still hasn't announced when issue #3 is coming out.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 6:46:43 pm EST from 162.40.54.239

*A star flies across the Comment Room trailing a rainbow of colors. A voice sings "The More You Know..."*
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 6:22:28 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Vaevictis:

"Hi again. By the time you see this question, the last Arthurian survivor will probably have been identified and a lot more about Pendragon be known, possibly making this question irrelevant, but just in case: 1) Does Duval share the immortality granted by the Grail with anyone else? 2) Have any of the other survivors made it to the present day through time-traveling? 3) If the answer to #2 is yes, was the Pheonix Gate involved?
Greg responds...

1. Yes.

2. No.

3. Yes. (You figure it out.)>>

Is it me, or does this imply Brooklyn will Dance into Arthurian times?"

Sorry, but you're reading the logic wrong.

Q: Have any of the other survivors made it to the present day through time-traveling?
A: No.
Q: If the answer to #2 is yes, was the Pheonix Gate involved?
A: Yes. (You figure it out.)

So, because the answer to question 2 was no, question 3 was meaningless, so Greg could give any answer he wanted. Logically, this is known as a vacuously true statement. An example is the statement "All green elephants can fly." Well, there's no such thing as a green elephant, so you can say that this statement is true. On the other hand, "All green elephants cannot fly" is just as true. You can never disprove either one, because you can never find a green elephant to test the statement on.

I hope the logic lesson isn't too confusing- it took me weeks to figure out how vacuous proofs work. The bottom line, though, is that Greg said none of the Arthurian survivors traveled forward in time, with or without the Phoenix Gate, so that tells us nothing about whether Brooklyn went to Arthurian times.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 4:34:36 pm EST from 68.54.23.62

Greg B: I agree that Derek is probably the best qualified for teh job of leader amongst the four of them, and obviously Fang does not qualify at all, but I don't agree with your assessment of the other two.

I don't think Claw being mute is a good enough reason for him not to lead. He does seem to be the largest and strongest of the mutates. But he is a pushover and a follower.

And yes, Maggie is really not suited to be in a leadersip role, and she is very frightened at first (wouldn't we all be, in her situation?), and she's not a fighter (but why does everyone need to be a fighter?)

but I don't think she's weak willed as you say. She stood up to Fang in the cage, and she stood up to Brooklyn (before he revealed his plan) even though she was outnumbered. (compare that to Claw, who didn't stand up to Fang at all until the end when Fang and his gang were obviously beaten). She goes out in broad daylight to ask the gargoyles for help-which shows a lot of courage, I think.

as I said, I think Claw's the one with the weakest will. I really wonder what he was like before he was mutated. I hope we find out.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 2:07:42 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Vaevictis> "However... when he says "But you won't (leave me in 975) because you didn't." I don't think he knows what he's talking about. Goliath could have left him there for the rest of his life, and the coin and instructions would still have gotten to Maine without any problem."

I once asked Greg about that very thing:

"matt writes...
in " Vows " Xanatos says a line and i'm not sure how/what he means with it?

does he say "Time travels funny that way." meaning that time is traveling funny or does he say "Time travel's funny that way." meaning that time travel itself is funny that way? does that make sense? i keep reading over it and i think it makes sense...

anyway, kinda a pointless question, but one i've been wanting to ask for a while now...

but on a related note, right before Xanatos says that, Goliath says he wishes he could leave Xanatos in that time and Xanatos says "You won't, because you didn't..." how did Xanatos know that? Goliath could've very well left Xanatos there and that may have been what always happened! you could say, Xanatos would've sent a letter to the Illuminati warning himself of his fate or some excuse like that, but as we've seen in "MIA" that letter would've been lost or something and all his ways of warning himself would've fallen through cuz the point is he did end up in Goliath s time and if he warned himself it would have created a paradox! so, there is no way Xanatos would have known for sure that Goliath wouldn't leave him there. was he saying that to Goliath to kinda trick Goliath into thinking that he had to bring him home or something, or was Xanatos just being confident and egotistical of his abilities to have a plan all worked out?

i hope all parts of this post make sense to you. if they don't, i apologize, its late...

Greg responds...
Time travel IS funny that way. Again, I think it's fairly self-evident. Meaning, hey, it's quirky.

It makes sense. It's just ANNOYING!!!

Sorry.

You're logic is flawless. I agree with everything you said.

Let's move on now.

Response recorded on September 11, 2001"
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 12:35:06 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Yeah, OT questions are not cool. They slow down the queue for everyone.

Hey folkage, in the Pendragon archive I found the following:

<<Vashkoda writes...

Hi again. By the time you see this question, the last Arthurian survivor will probably have been identified and a lot more about Pendragon be known, possibly making this question irrelevant, but just in case: 1) Does Duval share the immortality granted by the Grail with anyone else? 2) Have any of the other survivors made it to the present day through time-traveling? 3) If the answer to #2 is yes, was the Pheonix Gate involved?
Greg responds...

1. Yes.

2. No.

3. Yes. (You figure it out.)>>

Is it me, or does this imply Brooklyn will Dance into Arthurian times?
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 11:51:46 am EST from 209.162.56.94

Hahahaha the one og the greys was awesome
Demon@
"Look Raist, naked womans!!"
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 10:17:42 am EST from 200.125.112.59

Doesn't Greg get enough off-topic questions already?
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 7:29:03 am EST from 4.244.215.110

Sorry for the double post, but Brian Knight has me wondering: Has anyone ever asked Greg what the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow is?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I never said actors were cattle. I said they should be treated like cattle." -The legendary Alfred Hitchcock.
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 7:22:18 am EST from 71.62.204.109

Greg B: Considering the other three candidates, I'd definitely agree. As far as Derek's stupidity is concerned, there was one very amusing moment from "The Cage" where he expressed a desire to kill Sevarius before Xanatos even suggested that the doctor and Goliath were working together. That one nearly imploded my brain.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I never said actors were cattle. I said they should be treated like cattle." -The legendary Alfred Hitchcock.
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 6:46:35 am EST from 71.62.204.109

I always found Derek to be, well, an idiot, but, of the four mutates, he is best qualified to be leader.

Fang, well... would obviously get them all killed.
Claw is mute.
Maggie is frightened and weak willed.

As for the Changeling Boy... he was a character in "Midsummer Night's Dream"
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 3:08:55 am EST from 67.87.175.245

totally off-topic comments about latest "ask Greg" answers:

Does anyone know what Greg is referring to in a couple of his recent "ask Greg" answers with Phsycho_girl? What Changeling boy? Am I missing something?

I find it kind of amusing that Greg said Derek was the densest of the mutates. I wondered for a moment why he was their leader if this was the case-then I thought about it, and compared with some other leaders (a certain current U.S. president comes to mind) and I figured it wasn't so farfetched ;)

and wow, Derek is awfully dense if he didn't see the very close relatioship between goliath and elisa. I mean, she's always defending goliath against him and when he storms into the lab in "the cage" she's practially all over goliath...yeah.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)
posted @ Fri, Jan 12, 2007 1:51:36 am EST from 64.12.116.8

Demon@: That's sort of true, but Xanatos was pretty sure that Coyote would save Goliath et. al. He wouldn't have cried if they had died, but killing them wasn't the objective of his plan, as opposed to Thailog actually intending to kill his victims. I think there's a difference.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- that's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 11:37:55 pm EST from 71.226.160.29

Sory for the double post but, Hehe, well, while playing with my mousse I clicked on "last week comments" and saw your response Siren about the music video :P Gee, Demona Angela and Goliath, I cant wait…
Demon@
"Look Raist, naked womans!!"
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 11:15:17 pm EST from 200.125.112.59

Jurgan> "Thailog arranges to have Macbeth and Demona kill one another. Granted, that has considerable gain involved for him, but it's not something I imagine Xanatos doing"
Well, actually on the episode were we see the Coyote fey Xanatos is more than willing to kill both Goliath and Angela just to attract the trickster. (LOL try to say that fast!! "Attract the trickster")
Todd Jensen> that would make sense. Considering also the bitch attitude of all the humans of the castle. And think how terrifying it must be. The Demona of 1995 never said the exact day either of when the massacre would take place. I would also get paranoid if I were to know that some day when I awake all my family is going to be dead.
Warcrafter> well we have seen Demona escaping more times than actually fighting and we all have seen what kind of magical powers she has…. I think sorcerer would be more than warrior.
Demon@
"Look Raist, naked womans!!"
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 11:10:43 pm EST from 200.125.112.59

Yeah, in a Game of Chicken, I wouldn't play with either . . .

But yes, Xanatos is AMAZING in how he reacts. I just can't help but love how he proposes to FOX in "Eye of the Beholder." I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure that when I'm ready to pop the question, it's going to be in the form of a question and not a statement/command!

And once again, he's willing to risk his entire future waiting for Goliath when he has no clear idea that Goliath would show up at all (since it is true that he sent the letter to the Norman Ambassador before Goliath showed up.) Oy, there's no way I could be that confident . . . but then again, I don't imagine I'll be timetraveling anytime soon.

And on the Note on Petros: David has to have his "coolheadedness" from his father. I don't know how much you know of future episodes, Vaevictis, but I love Greg's line in one of his rants where he says that you got to give Petros some credit when some of the most ridiculous and strange things happen.

In Vows alone, he timetravels back to 975 AND discovers the truth about Gargoyles. An older man would probably be sent to the doctor . . .

And Vows was just the start of revelations for Petros . . .
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
Pheon
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 10:18:25 pm EST from 157.242.209.1

It would still be safer than playing strip poker with Demona. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I never said actors were cattle. I said they should be treated like cattle." -The legendary Alfred Hitchcock.
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 9:45:08 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Or, he was just so smug and confident, he knew Goliath wouldn't leave him there. Either way, I would never want to play poker with him.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 9:29:28 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

About Hudson, yes I agree. :)

Remember that Xanatos sent the letter well before he knew that Goliath would bring him back to Manhattan. So his instructions could not have contained that information.

I think he was bluffing.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 9:16:19 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Jurgan: Hmmm, that's surprising. I mean, we've seen that he is capable of showing humility or feelings of gratitude, but Oberon still strikes me as a very rigid bastard.

Vaevictus: "Vows" is up there on my list of favorites, so I might talk for quite a bit.

I think the main reason Goliath went to the wedding was because he was still unable to admit that it was completely over between him and Demona (a fact he finally accepts at the end). Or it might also have been because, as he told Elisa in the previous episode, if someone like Xanatos can learn to love, maybe there is hope for the world.

<*Although Malcolm supposedly liked the Gargoyles, he apparently didn't even invite Hudson to his wedding. That's too bad.> Maybe Hudson just wasn't too crazy about attending a human ceremony.

<However... when he says "But you won't (leave me in 975) because you didn't." I don't think he knows what he's talking about.> Maybe Xanatos just knew from his own instructions that Goliath wouldn't leave him. Goliath brought him back because he was always supposed to. And when the 975 Goliath becomes the 1995 Goliath, he'll make the same choice again because history can't be changed. At least, that's my understanding.

One of my favorite touches to this episode (and something that didn't quite click until I saw it more recently) was that Hudson in 1995 knew the choice Goliath was being faced with. Everyone else is being very vocal about how Goliath shouldn't go to the wedding, and Hudson simply says, "only you can decide what you will do." Because he knows more than he lets on. One of the great things about the show. A lot of the episodes merit multiple viewings.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I never said actors were cattle. I said they should be treated like cattle." -The legendary Alfred Hitchcock.
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 8:48:08 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

I kind of have my own reasons to ask this, but is Demona more of a warrior or a sorcerer?
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Humans are such easy prey for a gargoyle!........and I need more friends on XBOX Live for 360. Anyone?
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 8:29:27 pm EST from 69.234.2.202

Todd > Yeah, it's when they become human that I *really* notice just how badly they're dressed!
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 7:43:15 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

One thing that I forgot to comment about "The Mirror" when we were discussing it earlier; I still find it amusing that, during the time that all the New Yorkers are gargoyles, but Goliath and his clan haven't been turned into humans yet, nobody seems to notice that Goliath and the trio are strolling around New York in just loincloths (or that Demona's going about in just a halter and loincloth). Then again, this *is* New York City that we're talking about....

"Vows" is another episode that I enjoy, including its "time travellers can't change the past because they were already there" angle.

As I've mentioned before, one of the most intriguing features of the modern-day Demona's speech to the 975 Demona about the Wyvern Massacre is that she says that "the humans" were responsible for the massacre, rather than "the Vikings". Which raises the possibility that the Demona of 975 misinterprets her words as meaning that the humans of Castle Wyvern slaughtered her clan, or would do so, which would fit in with her decision to betray them nineteen years later - only to produce the very situation that she was trying to prevent.

One of the other big moments is the revelation that the Illuminati really do exist outside of Matt's beliefs.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 7:35:07 pm EST from 4.244.215.218

Greg responds...
"I agree with your last statement.

But I don't think Thailog views Angela as a daughter at all.

And keep in mind that from Thailog's point of view, Demona had weeks to turn the girl and failed. Now he wanted to test Demona. And maybe he was more than ready to replace her with Delilah."

Greg responds...
"1. It will be interesting to see.

2. I think Thailog may be over the notion (assuming he ever really subscribed to it and wasn't just play-acting) that he needs to destroy Goliath, Xanatos and Sevarius. We've already seen him working with Anton. And I think, like David, he'd view killing Goliath and David as too wasteful."
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 5:39:19 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Heh I forgot to say, that was Vows that I watched today. Although I figure you all can tell from my comments.

City of Stone starts tomorrow!
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 5:32:59 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Greg Bishansky- And yet we already know Thailog tried to trick Demona and Macbeth into killing themselves off.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 5:27:27 pm EST from 69.54.209.33

Demona was still potentially useful to him. That's why he busted her out. He used Angela as a "loyalty test".
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 5:16:14 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Matt: Now you have me wondering why Thailog went to such extremes. Couldn't he have just emailed Macbeth an anonymous message as to Demona's current location? Even if Macbeth didn't respond it would have been so much easier to get rid of Demona, not to mention more efficent. I could just imagine Macbeth attacking and then getting captured himself. Then trying to rationalize his sucide to the clan.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 5:14:00 pm EST from 69.54.209.33

Again, I had a vague idea what would happen in this episode, but only vague. It was really a fun episode. When Xanatos asked Goliath to be his best man, I shared his surprise: "You cannot be serious!"

I thought the scene at Malcolm's wedding was kind of nice. I knew it wouldn't last but it was sweet.

Xanatos is so smug and confident. He always is, of course (except in Eye of the Beholder) but after the whole episode, I realised it is because he has already received his own letter, and knows exactly what will happen the whole time. It was great how he did indeed prove he is (sort of) "a self-made man."
However... when he says "But you won't (leave me in 975) because you didn't." I don't think he knows what he's talking about. Goliath could have left him there for the rest of his life, and the coin and instructions would still have gotten to Maine without any problem.

Demona is such a maniac, that she can't help launching into a genocidal tirade, and attacking Goliath, even though she remembers and knows it will upset and turn off her younger self. Is this bizarre experience part of what makes Demona turn so bitter and paranoid in the end?

Petros Xanatos seems like a decent guy. He shares my dislike of materialism. And he's right -- Xanatos seems much more preoccupied with the time travel than his actual wedding.

*Petros' quip about a penny at the end is clever. There is something of his son's sense of humor in him.
*"I wanted it so I took it." That seems to be the underlying reason for everything Xanatos does.
*I like the little details. The Norman ambassador has the historical Norman haircut.
*Demona and Goliath have both been "seduced" by the addictiveness of naming. They both find it difficult to communicate in the old way.
*I like Malcolm's little comment about Xanatos and Fox's clothes.
*Although Malcolm supposedly liked the Gargoyles, he apparently didn't even invite Hudson to his wedding. That's too bad.
*I like when Goliath was trying to explain things to Hudson. "I was, I mean I will, went to, uh.."
*I wonder why the last scene was animated that way. At least they didn't accidentally leave out some important scene or information.

I really like Greg's conservative notion of how time travel works. History should definately be immutable, it's the only thing that truly makes sense. Branching off a new time-line can make logical sense, but the idea is so easily abused and the results are often very silly and unsatisfactory as a story. True paradoxes can be so much more fun.
Goliath is surely disappointed that history cannot be changed. Otherwise, would he have tried to prevent the massacre?

I have some questions, though:

1. Why did Goliath choose to go to the wedding at all? Is it because he dreamed of Demona's vow at the wedding? That makes the whole thing an even bigger paradox, since her vow was inspired by future Demona and Goliath's advice to her.

2. Obviously Elena and the ambassador spoke Scottish, but how did Xanatos and Fox communicate with the ancient Scotsmen? Even if they could speak English, their ancient accent would probably be incomprehensible. Does anybody know when English became widespread in Scotland?

3. How did Elena and the ambassador know the name of the Phoenix Gate? Did they know all along what it was? And how did the Archmage know she had it?

4. Why is the Illuminati Society emblem on the US one dollar bill?

5. When the two Demonas fought and Goliath knocked one out, did the two Gates get mixed up? We may never know -- yet another paradox.

City of Stone is next and yes Greg B., I'm certainly looking farward to it. I saw part of it as a kid and liked it a lot. The historical/medieval and mythological/Shakespearean/Arthurian parts of Gargoyles always make me happiest.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 5:04:41 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Harvester: "TSC: <Puck is a trickster, and tricksters (as far as I know) aren't into killing people, because dead people make far less sport than live ones.> Plus, I think killing them outright would be violating Oberon's law. He more or less told Demona that he's not some all-powerful genie who can do ANYTHING, and he was probably referring to the law set down by Oberon. However, changing them physically while leaving them the same on the inside is bending the law without breaking it."

Actually, Greg has said that when Puck was under control, he was released from Oberon's Law, since he wasn't responsible for his actions. This explains all the different legends regarding genies and other magical creatures who have to grant wishes when captured- granted the wish of a human is definitely interference, but they can no longer be held responsible.

Greg B.: "Thailog hates waste." You're jumping to a sweeping generalization very quickly. A few days ago, Greg said that Thailog is starting to see wastefulness as a bad thing, but he's not to the level of Xanatos in that regard. Look at his history, after all. Thailog's had three appearances in the series. In "Double Jeopardy," he tries to kill four people. He already has the money, so he doesn't have to kill them. Xanatos and Goliath are potential rivals, but Sevarius could certainly be useful and is probably too weak-willed to be a threat, and Thailog outright admits that Elisa was just "in the wrong place at the wrong time." In "Sanctuary," Thailog arranges to have Macbeth and Demona kill one another. Granted, that has considerable gain involved for him, but it's not something I imagine Xanatos doing. In "The Reckoning," Thailog tries to kill the entire Manhattan clan for no clear reason except to get them out of the way. Again, they are potential threats, but they were threats to Xanatos as well, and he never tried to kill them. In all three of Thailog's appearances, he's tried to kill people, and I can't think of any time when Xanatos deliberately tried to kill anyone in any of his schemes. Thailog may be evolving, but he's still much more willing to commit murder than Xanatos, so I don't see how you come up with the idea that he "hates waste."
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- that's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 2:54:45 pm EST from 71.226.160.29

Ya, you right :P
Demon@
"Look Raist, naked womans!!"
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 1:14:59 pm EST from 200.125.112.59

Demon@> Kinda tough since Macbeth had tha marriage annuled.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 12:53:30 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Demon@> Kinda touch since Macbeth had tha marriage annuled.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 12:53:02 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Matt: If a remember correctly, Greg said something about Thailog testing Demona when he start talking about killing Angela, that is also why he was so obstinate about killing her first.
Probably he had more uses for Demona. Delila may be pretty but she is not a warriot, and sorcerer a thousand years old. Maybe he was going to keep her hiding while thinking in a way of making Demona kill Macbeth again. He would rid himself, forever and safely of Demona and gain all the money of both of them as he planned originaly.
Demon@
"Look Raist, naked womans!!"
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 12:49:25 pm EST from 200.125.112.59

MATT> Thailog hates waste. Demona was probably still potentially useful to him.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 10:49:01 am EST from 67.87.175.245

Matt> Given Thailog's mind, he probably speculated that Demona would eventually, somehow, break out of her cell, and come after him. He couldn't leave her to rot. Not with the knowledge that she would probably track him down at some point. Not that Thailog fears her (or at least, if he does, he doesn't show it), but let's face it. She's immortal. He's not.

For a far more likely scenario, however, it's more feasible that he only busted Demona out to gloat over Delilah to her later. Purely for amusement.

If I were Thailog, that's what I would have done.

Off-topic> I just read the Gargs Wiki page, and I can't help but wonder whether Alex's kidnapping by Raven may have something to do with the "trip of some kind" that Lex is going to go on. Or am I just reading too much into it? I could be wrong... it's just something that's bugging the snot out of me.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 9:41:10 am EST from 69.95.28.201

One of the most amusing moments in "The Silver Falcon" to me (though you have to watch the episode at least twice to get it) is when Benton refers to "DD" in the photograph as the "sharp-looking young feller". I find it funny, that is, because it turns out that Benton is really "DD" (Dominic Dracon) in disguise, and is engaging in a self-compliment when he says that.

I've said this before, but I wonder how many people watching "The Silver Falcon" the first time must have had a flash of deja vu after learning that the conspiracy theorist Matt Bluestone had once been an FBI agent.... (Fortunately the production team never made the motivation for his pursuit of the Illuminati the disappearance of a younger sister under mysterious circumstances.)

"Eye of the Beholder" is an episode that I like to watch every Halloween. I remember being surprised to have it turn out that the Eye of Odin had magical abilities (though even after that, I wasn't prepared for a further revelation about it, down the road, and I'm a Norse mythology buff). And I agree that it definitely provides new insights into Xanatos's character. (Maybe my favorite moment - or one of them - comes when Xanatos says to Goliath, "So now you know my weakness", to which Goliath replies, "Only you would regard love as a weakness.")
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 8:31:20 am EST from 4.244.210.231

Vinnie> You may be right, but you just as likely to be wrong. You are assuming facts not in evidence. For all we know Delilah was realeased from the cloning tubes last. Thailog may have had her in mind the whole time, but that is all we know.

Anyway, this conversation has made me wonder: after Thailog has created all five clones, why didn't he just leave Demona in prison in the Labyrinth? What did he have to gain by freeing her? Did he really want to destroy the Manhattan Clan that badly? Seems awfully wasteful of him. I dunno, the whole thing seems completely un-Thailog of him. You'd think the smart thing to do would be to just take Delilah and his clones and leave Demona to rot. *shrugs*
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 8:30:48 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Vavictus: <Yes, although that self-deception got past me when I watched it.>

Got past a few people, I think. The first few times I watched "Eye of the Beholder," I actually missed the concerned look that Xanatos is wearing in his office after he tells Owen "on to Plan B." Or I noticed it, but I completely missed its meaning. Most notably, he has his back to Owen, so Owen can't see it.

At any rate, you've still got "Vows" to go through before "City of Stone." Which is another great episode.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"If we don't talk to the patients, they can't lie to us. And we can't lie to them." -Gregory House, MD.
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 6:58:35 am EST from 71.62.204.109

Matt:<Delilah was not created very much in advance, assuming she was created before the others at all. For all we know she was the last clone created.>

I didn't say Delilah was created in advance. I merely suggested Thailog order Sevarious to begin work on her before the rest of the clone clan, since she was more complicated then the others and he planned on disposing of Demona. It fits with Thailog's style to plan ahead like that. Then when the clones were finished he brought Delilah out first for obvious reason.
The discoloration of her mouth faded during that time period. No doubt he removed the other clones just prior to breaking out Demona. Which is why their mouths were still discolored.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 5:06:44 am EST from 69.54.209.99

My compliaments to EVERYONE who worked on the Gargoyles WIKI.

I just finished reading the Time line and boy am I impressed!!! There is A TON of information I didn't even know, and I considder myself a BIG fan!

GREAT JOB!!!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Thu, Jan 11, 2007 12:34:55 am EST from 198.53.28.99

Yep, and that's one of the many things that makes Xanatos such a fascinating character.

I think you're almost up to "City of Stone"... you're going to have a lot of fun with that one.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 11:43:28 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Yes, although that self-deception got past me when I watched it.

To clarify what I said earlier, I don't think it was necessarily silly of the episode writers to put Broadway in a trenchcoat or have him say those lines. I think Broadway himself is acting silly.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 11:41:41 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Vaevictis> Xanatos didn't want the Eye back. It was never about getting the Eye back, even if that's what he told himself and Owen.

Xanatos: "Goliath and company are, as usual, determinned to thwart me. They'll pull out all the stops to get the Eye away from Fox before I do. They'll do all my work for me.
Owen: "I fail to see how it will be any easier to get the Eye from the gargoyles than from Fox.

That's where Xanatos gave himself away. He loves Fox, this is where he admitted it, to himself most of all. The Eye, while a really nice jewel, wasn't what he really wanted. He wanted the woman he loves back and safe.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 11:33:59 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

A few final comments that I forgot:

*Broadway's "costume" is SO silly-looking.
*The scene where he copies the movie stunt and line at the end also seemed silly to me. Maybe it is in character, but that's how it felt.
*Fox wasn't in control of herself, but somehow she managed to stop before she bit Xanatos' face off. Clearly, she has some feelings for him.
*Love does actually come across as making Xanatos a bit weak. He can't afford to wait three days to take back the Eye, and he can't just blow up the werewolf. But I wonder why the writers but the time limit in there?
*What is it in Fox that was amplified by the Eye? Of all the Pack, she seemed the ~least~ berserk and vicious to me. She's more of a scheming, careful sort, sort of like Xanatos.
*Broadway still hasn't figured out that massive property damage is not acceptable. Whoah! Really, they all show this problem at one episode or another. Elisa needs to sit the clan down and have a chat one of these nights.
*Elisa's dress is removable and she's got a gun underneath. Perfect.
*Fox sneaking home (nearly) naked was pretty funny.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 11:26:56 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

VA: I had similar thoughts about the collapse's effects on Broadway, but maybe she saw a buttress that would protect him. Or maybe she saw a writer who said, "Kick the timber, he'll be okay, it's in the script." :D

PS- Sorry if I spoiled anything concerning the clones, or anything for that matter. I'll try to remember spoiler warnings.
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 10:21:20 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

I haven't actually seen the Cage or the clone episodes, so I don't know the details, but weren't those mosquitobots down in the Labyrinth while the Mutates were there? What's to stop Xanatos and Sevarius from having a Mutate-cloning project in the works? Clearly, the first set of clones was a flop. So maybe more brainwashing/programming, and some actual living experience, would be needed. But Mutates do have some advantages over Gargoyles: they don't sleep in stone, they can fly instead of glide, and they can zap people. Although considering that the Garg-clones were more or less a failure, Xanatos might have scrapped any Mutate-clone project he had going. But he might have started one at some point.

Anyway, I'm watching more than one episode a day, generally. My semester is going to start soon, so I have a lot of spare time now but next month I won't.

I had the fortune to watch an episode for which I've read absolutely no spoilers: Silver Falcon. I also watched Eye of the Beholder. I liked both of them but Eye of the Beholder was more fun, I think. The design of the werewolf was very well-done and fun, better than any other werewolf I've seen in any cartoon or movie. It looked strait out of Werewolf: the Apocalypse art (although I wouldn't say it equalled my favorite W:tA artists). It was huge, with real wolf paws, a good-looking snout, and big wicket claws. Wonderful.

And just like Long Way to Morning, an action-filled episode that was still strong on character. Goliath and Elisa are clearly beginning to open up about their feelings, and I'm sure they just loved being able to walk around in public. The "Beauty and the Beast" dance was kind of silly but I think Elisa and Goliath did it on purpose knowing they were kind of making an in-joke about themselves.
Xanatos was interesting. I loved his proposal! "We're genetically compatible... we love each other about as much as two people such as ourselves are capeable of that emotion." Knowing Xanatos, maybe he actually ran genetic tests to watch for bad recessives beforehand! Xanatos is always so calm and sly, that his character moments can be understated so that they go almost unnoticed. But he was great in this entire episode. He's not some one-sided, psychopathic villain incapeable of human emotions, (unlike, um, Hyena and Proteus) but he doesn't go all mushy and cutey either. He still puts a tracking device on Goliath. I love the moment where he grabs Elisa's gun, calmly crushes it, and then calmly hands it back to her! He's protecting Fox but in a uniquely Xanatos way. The animators did a good job with his facial expressions, too.

And Goliath and Elisa's reactions to Xanatos' Plan were interesting, too. Elisa is totally paranoid, understandably. Everything Xanatos says is a lie, he's using us, the werewolf is a Mutate, etc. But Goliath is optimistic, he wants to see the good in people, and he's just realizing he's in love himself. Is that why he is willing to trust Xanatos? It probably helps that no matter who the werewolf is, it is a danger to Goliath's protectorate.
It was also nice to see Elisa, for once, have no idea what the bizarre creature was that she saw! And I think it's a good thing that they explained how the creature was sighted numerous times all over NYC. Making Elisa the first or only cop who ran into it would be too much coincidence for me.
But that poor shop owner. It's the same guy who got robbed thrice in Reawakening.

The Trio's costumes ... Lex could have called himself a "gremlin," I guess, but Broadway and especially Brooklyn looked totally rediculous. They didn't seem to realise that their own faces would be "costume" enough! But they showed enough restraint not to go running around after Goliath and expose themselves this time -- maybe they are finally learning!

The Silver Falcon was nice too, like I said it was fun to have absolutely no idea what would happen. Although, I had only the vaguest idea that Fox turned into a werewolf in Eye, so both of these episodes were a mystery to me.
I like that unlike so many cartoons where small children or teenagers save the day, Broadway's inexperience with detective work is clear, and it genuinely causes problems. And Elisa isn't ready to just let him join her, just because he asks her.
But once he actually starts working more like a warrior, as he was trained to do, and leave the detective stuff to Elisa, things work out better.
Overall, mysteries aren't so much my thing, but it was a nice change of pace.

My only concern is, what was Elisa thinking when she collapsed more of the concrete roof over Broadway! Didn't she realise that the weight could have broken his arms or wings?
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 9:45:53 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

POSSIBLE SPOILERS

Again, I don't know how much Vaevictus knows about what's to come, but anyway...

TSC: <Puck is a trickster, and tricksters (as far as I know) aren't into killing people, because dead people make far less sport than live ones.> Plus, I think killing them outright would be violating Oberon's law. He more or less told Demona that he's not some all-powerful genie who can do ANYTHING, and he was probably referring to the law set down by Oberon. However, changing them physically while leaving them the same on the inside is bending the law without breaking it.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"If we don't talk to the patients, they can't lie to us. And we can't lie to them." -Gregory House, MD.
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 7:52:26 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

All five clones were created at roughly the SAME time. There were five clone tubes and when Sevarius finished his work, you could clearly see that there were five bodies in those tubes. If nothing else, the fact that five clones were made at the same time is verified when Sevarius says, "Thats three down, and two to go..."

Delilah was not created very much in advance, assuming she was created before the others at all. For all we know she was the last clone created.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 6:19:13 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Sorry for the double-post, but Thailog would have wanted Delilah more than any of the other clones. For reasons that seem obvious enough not to specify. ;)
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 5:13:29 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

I think it's possible that Delilah was removed from the tubes first. Elisa was the first to be bitten by a bug, but we don't know if it were a mechanical bug sent by Thailog/Sevarious, or if it were a real bug. And Demona's DNA would've been available to Thailog for a very long time.
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 5:12:07 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Matt:< Interesting theory about the clone mouths, it does neatly explain why Thailog doesn't have it, but where did you get the idea that Delilah was made or taken out of the clone tubes first? I see nothing in the episode that hints that, and I don't believe Greg W ever said anything to that effect. If anything, Delilah's creation would've taken longer cuz Savarius would've had to do all sorts of work on Demona and Elisa's DNA to get Delilah to come out right (a female gargoyle with only cosmetic human facial features).>

It's only a theory, and we don't really know if Thailog didn't order Sevarious to make Delilah before he convinced Demona to create the rest of the clones.
We do know Thailog was always planning to betray Demona from the moment he met her(the only female gargoyle he'd ever met until Angela). So it would stand to reason he'd be planning her replace as early as possible, before the rest of the clones were planned. Maybe the clone clone was the result of Demona discovering Thailog's corresponence with Sevarious. A hasty attempt at covering up Delilah.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 5:00:36 pm EST from 69.54.209.92

Vaevictis - "Honestly, the entire idea of evil twin clones being the opposite color seems very lame to me. They did that in Darkwing Duck, too. It works that they would be a different color if they were aged super-fast -- but exact photo-negatives, complete with green mouths and black teeth, is overly silly."

Yeah, I kind of got that impression, too. The black teeth and green mouths always annoyed me, because it didn't seem practical. I always thought that mouths and teeth would be the same as anyone else's, despite them being clones, because mouths and such are basically internal and would match the tissue and colour, etc of regular creatures. It made me wonder whether their internal organs and bones were also black and green. (That thought really grosses me out. I mean, green entrails, kidneys, heart, etc and black bones? Eww.)

Though maybe one of the reasons they were exact photo negatives for colour was because to keep them the same colour as the original gargoyles would have made things really confusing. And a pain in the arse. 'Course, they still could have picked other colours, as opposed to the exact negatives... bah. XD

"The Gargs never really articulated why the situation was so dangerous and had to be fixed right away. Why couldn't they leave it for a little bit? :)"

I had always thought that Goliath's line, "With Demona involved... it's dangerous" (or something to that effect), was a good enough reason. I mean, Demona has been an exremely dangerous adversary for a while, and with the power of a Child of Oberon at her disposal, that would make her ten times *more* dangerous. They had no idea what her next move would be; for all they knew, she could have Puck turn them into slugs and squish them.

Hudson's comment about wanting to see the sun just once, and the Trio's "Weird, but cool" comment makes me think that, had the situation been somewhat different and lacked Demona's involvement, they might have made different use of their human forms. (Like in some fanfics, they're changed into humans for a day, and they go out and mingle with the humans, etc.) But since Demona *was* involved, and had control of a very powerful magic source, they couldn't take any chances.

"Puck is great. He totally mangles the spirit of her demands. He doesn't seem like a bad guy -- he's not willing to kill people, apparently. Then again, he goes along with all of Xanatos' evil actions like mutating people, and calls it all "fun.""

Puck is a trickster, and tricksters (as far as I know) aren't into killing people, because dead people make far less sport than live ones. It's kind of an "anything goes" sort of thing, and killing your plaything isn't much fun since you'll then lose your plaything forever, and where's the fun in that? ^_^

His mangling of her requests seems to be a trait of all Fae. Puck's "gifts" come with a price, and the Fae are the sort to have hidden or double-meanings in everything they say or do. Thus why one must be careful in dealing with them, as Demona learned. :D

"Anyway, speaking of silly -- it's neat to me that you guys like my "reviews" of the episodes as I watch them."

Discussion of Gargoyles is what this place is for, and reviews/thoughts on the eps as someone watches them can be fun. It's started some good discussions and activity, which is great. ^_^
The Sadistic Cow
I believe the children are our future... unless we stop them NOW!
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 1:13:36 pm EST from 24.150.120.87

Back to Lighthouse on the Sea of Time>> Recall the odd conclusion Broadway leapt to about Macbeth having been at Camelot? It's not as if Broadway hadn't heard stories about the past before, is it?
Could you imagine any other gargoyle making that conclusion?
JJ Gregarius
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 1:09:02 pm EST from 206.57.93.109

<<If Demona had been a little calmer during the episode, would she have decided to maintain the newly made Gargoyles?>>

I think Demon@'s idea is the only one that might possibly happen, if Demona was calm enough to think beyond her immediate gratification.

Remember, in the episode, the New Yorkers only looked like Gargoyles. They didn't behave like Gargyles -- didn't fly, didn't not have names, didn't raise their children communally. Their culture, and underneath probably their souls and minds, did not change. They weren't truly Gargoyles. (And Greg's notes in the memo, indicates he didn't think of them as true Gargoyles either)
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 12:19:45 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Now, I've been wondering. If Demona had been a little calmer during the episode, would she have decided to maintain the newly made Gargoyles?
Yeah, maybe she could make Puck tranform aaalll the humans armies into a gargoyles army and then she could sent the to kill humans and finally turn them into humans and kill them all with some vicious plan.
:D
Demon@
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 9:58:55 am EST from 200.125.112.59

Antiyonder> "...then during "The Mirror" he noticed her physical beauty. Updraft indeed."

HAHA!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 9:38:33 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Antiyonder: Ditto what Greg B said.

"I wanted you to destroy the humans, not give them the GIFT of being a gargoyle."

Puck was just messing with her, because he's a tricky son of a bitch.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Why the hell would I want to do that? I'm twenty-six and you're sixty-one." -What I wanted to say to a customer who recently asked me to put myself in his shoes.
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 6:53:26 am EST from 71.62.204.109

Greg Bishansky> She wants to kill us all, not transform us.

So, we're all going to die? I guess I'll get used to the idea eventually.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 2:39:52 am EST from 71.115.231.16

YEEEEEEEEEA greg wiseman will be at one of my fav conventions in san fransico.

anyone out there show him your suport

http://www.comic-con.org/wc/wc_guests.shtml
Shara
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 12:51:56 am EST from 4.245.121.219

Antiyonder> No, Demona would not have wanted to keep humans as gargoyles. Don't forget that she's beyond racist. It had nothing to do with her not keeping her calm.

She wants to kill us all, not transform us.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 12:15:01 am EST from 67.87.175.245

>>according to Greg, Goliath has had feelings for elisa subconsciously from the beginning. But he finally realizes he does in "The mirror." Elisa does consciously realize-but she denies her feelings.

I believe what he said was more like Goliath being attracted to her spiritually, then during "The Mirror" he noticed her physical beauty. Updraft indeed.

Now, I've been wondering. If Demona had been a little calmer during the episode, would she have decided to maintain the newly made Gargoyles?
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 10, 2007 12:13:32 am EST from 71.115.231.16

"The Mirror" is a favorite among many fans :)

Vaevictis: Actually I think Goliath and Elisa exhibited feelings for each other
starting in Awakening pt.3. Watch the part where he picks her up before they go on the tour of the city.
according to Greg, Goliath has had feelings for elisa subconsciously from the beginning. But he finally realizes he does in "The mirror." Elisa does consciously realize-but she denies her feelings.

stupid random thought- In issue #2, Elisa is walking around barefoot in the clock tower-think of all the broken glass and debris that must be on the floor...ouch.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
visit my garg art and other stuff :)
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 11:06:21 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

These is my Bronx in the mirror http://www.perrilandia.com/rottweiler/index.htm
Demon@
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 11:03:58 pm EST from 200.125.112.59

On the Mirror>

"The lady got her wish"

No kidding . . . AND Puck warned her! "You don't know what your asking for . . . BELIEVE ME." Though I'm sure he was glad she didn't figure it out.

On another subject, Greg in his recent answer is still saying that Issue #3 will still be next month. Any sign of Cover Art yet?
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
Pheon
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 10:21:28 pm EST from 157.242.215.39

"The Mirror"> not much to add. This is one of my favs out of the series. The only thing that tops it was seeing/hearing it at the last Gathering. That, and hearing Crispin Freeman try and sound like Hudson. XD
Asatira
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 10:15:02 pm EST from 68.190.60.157

The Mirror: As with everyone else, one of my favorites....what the hell...it is my favorite.

Puck's first appearence was probably the most memorable first appearence on any show I've ever watched. I love his design and Brent Spiner did an absolutely fantastic job on the voice work.

There is little else I can that hasn't already been said.
My only extreemly minor disappointment was they breed of dog they made Bronx into. An Irish Wolfhound-like dog. It is the tallest breed, but when all the other gargoyles changed, they retained their overall shape. For instance, Goliath didn't become a beanpole. Once I saw them changing, I was hoping and expecting Bronx would be a bulldog, mastiff, or pit bull type dog. He's built like a pit bull or English bulldog, so it just seemed that was what he would be. But instead they chose to go the route of the tallest dog, which never has sat right with me. But I always obsess over the animals anyways. lol

The pay-off was the VERY end. Demona's face was fricken priceless. I remember dying laughing when I saw that. Demona Owned. LOL
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 9:08:06 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

Todd: I'm guessing that Xanatos figured that having an assistant who'd never try posting his resume elsewhere was more valuable than immortality. Good help is hard to find (or program).

Vaevictus: I think Greg said that Goliath's feelings were first hinted at in "Deadly Force," in that scene when Goliath is in Elisa's hospital room. But that was less obvious.

<And she completely fails to notice that Puck's rhymes have nothing to do with killing people.> The thing I love about Puck is that he always did exactly what was asked of him. "I'm too vulnerable during the day. I don't want to turn to stone." The lady got her wish. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Why the hell would I want to do that? I'm twenty-six and you're sixty-one." -What I wanted to say to a customer who recently asked me to put myself in his shoes.
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 7:54:19 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

"The Mirror" is definitely one of my favorite episodes. There'a a great bit of animation when Demona tosses the mirror off the building to keep Goliath from pursuing her - for an instant the cityscape is reflected in it.

I like the way Puck does "exactly what Demona asks" yet twists her words to give unanticipated outcomes (and despite her frustration she stubbornly continues making wishes/giving him commands anyway - much to her chagrin by episode's end).

"I wonder, though -- did the image of Goliath appear in the mirror because Puck put it there, or did he make it show what Demona truly wanted? Does she still have feelings for him somewhere? She doesn't want to admit it." > I took Puck's remarks here at face value (admittedly not the best policy when dealing with a trickster), including "still carrying a torch," to mean that somewhere, deep down, she still had feelings for Goliath. No matter how she might deny them, the fae could still see them.

A related side note: at a friend's house this weekend, we were watching the Star Trek: TNG episode "Time's Arrow." There's a snippet where our heroes, back in old San Francisco, use the cover of Shakespearean actors rehearsing "A Midsummer Night's Dream." Data (Brent Spiner) reads only one line - but he sure sounds like our Puck!
Abby
"Boy, the city sure is different when it snows." "Yeah. It's colder." - "The Price"
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 7:14:59 pm EST from 24.118.226.247

Vinnie> Interesting theory about the clone mouths, it does neatly explain why Thailog doesn't have it, but where did you get the idea that Delilah was made or taken out of the clone tubes first? I see nothing in the episode that hints that, and I don't believe Greg W ever said anything to that effect. If anything, Delilah's creation would've taken longer cuz Savarius would've had to do all sorts of work on Demona and Elisa's DNA to get Delilah to come out right (a female gargoyle with only cosmetic human facial features).
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 6:56:02 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Yeah, if Puck granted somebody immortality, they'd probably end up shrivelling into a cricket! Or something equally horrible.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 6:55:38 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

All that I'll say about "The Mirror" tonight is that, after seeing how Puck was granting Demona's wishes, I'd say that Xanatos showed good judgment in choosing a lifetime of service from Owen.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 6:53:47 pm EST from 4.244.214.44

Oh yeah, I forgot to add that I liked Elisa's reaction to the story about faeries and elves. She's know about Gargoyles for a year now, but she thinks they're pulling her leg when they tell her about the Fae! Heh.

Overall, a very "Midsummer" kind of episode.

And hey, look at one of the latest Qs Greg answered:

"(given that you will probably read this in 2-3 years)

wow Greg, I an loving the comic series and the way the story has progressed since Hunter's Moon. My favorite is issue #18, and I cannot wait to see which direction you take the series in next!"

And Greg replied:

"Hah! Took me less than a year!! Hah!!"
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 6:40:40 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Black teeth and tongues of the clones: I've often thought of that as just a side effect of their maturation process that would eventually fade like it did with Delilah. I assume Delilah and Thailog had the same problem. But Thailog took Delilah out early since Demona was locked up for so long and we don't know what Thailog looked like fresh out of a maturation chamber.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 6:34:56 pm EST from 69.54.209.14

Maybe he (Burbank?) just has a weapon because each clone fought against its "original" and Hudson had a weapon, so Burbank had to have one too or he'd be outmatched?

Their mouths bother me, too. Honestly, the entire idea of evil twin clones being the opposite color seems very lame to me. They did that in Darkwing Duck, too. It works that they would be a different color if they were aged super-fast -- but exact photo-negatives, complete with green mouths and black teeth, is overly silly.

Anyway, speaking of silly -- it's neat to me that you guys like my "reviews" of the episodes as I watch them. So today I watched The Mirror. The whole thing is so random and funny, I'm not sure I can pinpoint individual scenes that were hilarious.

*Elisa's reaction is really good, though:
"Oh no! *gasp* Look at them!"
"Everybody in Manhattan has been turned into .. into Humans!"
"Goliath, you turned into a Gargoyle!"
"What? I can't glide!" So Goliath just grabs her and jumps off the building! AIEEE!!

*The Gargs thinking they were always Human and could glide anyway.
*And of course the New Yorkers' reaction to the Humans, screaming and running away when they growl.
"Oh no, those monsters are attacking that lady!" XD
It would have been so great if they could have made this a two-parter, to explore more of the situations.
The Gargs never really articulated why the situation was so dangerous and had to be fixed right away. Why couldn't they leave it for a little bit? :)
I did catch the conversation in the clocktower about the Trio wanting to fit in. The effect of the conversation would have been better for me, I think, if I hadn't already had some idea what was going to happen. I think I read all these spoilers because when I first investigated this website, I didn't actually expect to want to buy the DVDs and watch them. They looked pretty expensive. So I just started reading all the lore.

Puck is great. He totally mangles the spirit of her demands. He doesn't seem like a bad guy -- he's not willing to kill people, apparently. Then again, he goes along with all of Xanatos' evil actions like mutating people, and calls it all "fun." (Greg W. spoiled the Puck/Owen thing himself, at he sci-fi convention. I think he expected only people familiar with the show to attend that panel.)
And Demona just generally freaks out most of the time. Typical. And she completely fails to notice that Puck's rhymes have nothing to do with killing people.
I wonder, though -- did the image of Goliath appear in the mirror because Puck put it there, or did he make it show what Demona truly wanted? Does she still have feelings for him somewhere? She doesn't want to admit it.

Until this episode, I never noticed any chemistry between Goliath and Elisa. I knew it would happen because you guys talk about it in the CR, but they showed it until this episode.
It was pretty funny when Elisa asks him if he thought she was ugly, and he just changes the subject instead.
She's so scared of flying, but when Goliath falls off the building she doesn't hesitate to go after him. There's definately something going on, there.
It looks like both of them have been in some type of denial before. Then when he wants to talk to her about it, she shuts him up. She sounds rather hopeless at the end. It does look like a hopeless situation, though, if they actually have feelings for each other.

I didn't recognize Elisa at all in the museum, until she spoke, and I was confused why the guard didn't react to Goliath.
I still don't understand how they knew Demona was going to steal the Mirror, or how they knew about it at all. There was something written on a sign in front of the Museum that said "Something something Titania something something" on it, but the words were too small.

The animation is fairly good otherwise, but there were a few big mistakes. Like Goliath hovering in midair! Bronx also looks really fake as a dog. He's bright blue and his paws are not dog paws.

I figured out that Demona must have used wrought iron chains to control Puck, but I think it could have been spelled out in the episode. Not everybody immediately thinks of iron as the bane of Fae. They don't seem to inhibit his spellcasting, though.

The whole thing just goes to show what mortals get when they mess with insane, inhuman beings like the Fae.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 6:31:09 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Macbeth's riches> I serached AG, Greg W once said:

" Xanatos is Beyond the Reach rich. Macbeth is just stinking rich. Demona's extremely rich. Thailog's just rich."
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 6:09:14 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Harvester's theories on the clones: lol That's funny.

Matt: I agree. Burbank's beard either shouldn't be, or should be different than Hudson's.
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 6:07:44 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

I was just chatting with DTaina, wondering if Coldstone's hair should be added to the list of nits, and she suggested that it might have been a wig. Just figured I'd throw that out. Doesn't explain the eye, but... ( ;

TSC: <Macbeth was stinking rich; he was a king once, after all, and after living as long as he has I'll bet he managed to collect a nice, tidy sum over the centuries.> Makes sense. Demona's hoarded over the centuries, so why not Macbeth?

Concerning the clones: I have two theories on their teeth. a) Thailog never programmed them with the knowledge of proper flossing, or b) a few corners had been cut in their physical development.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Why the hell would I want to do that? I'm twenty-six and you're sixty-one." -What I wanted to say to a customer who recently asked me to put myself in his shoes.
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 5:55:36 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Having the ability to grow a beard may be genetic, but actually growing the exact same beard sported by Hudson was a choice. I think he would've been more visually interesting without the beard, or at least with a different style.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 2:52:33 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Well,as for Burbank beard, maybe it just was on the genes. As Greg said once, not all the gargoyles have the capacity of growing facial hairs.
The weapon probably was, like the names, another way for Demona to mock Goliath's clan.
Demon@
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 1:58:02 pm EST from 200.125.112.59

Clones> The weird color and features that the clones have don't bother me so much. I mean, there probably could easily be a biological explanation for it. Gargoyles have a wide variety of colors afterall, certainly those genes could be expressed differently in a rapid aging cloning tube. The black teeth don't make much sense though...

My only other gripe about the clones is Burbank's beard. Just cuz Hudson has a beard doesn't mean Burbank has to have one. All the clones are near Goliath's age, so why not have Burbank clean-shaven? That's would've made his youth more visually obvious. And along the same line, why is Burbank the only clone with a melee weapon?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 1:46:21 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Well, if we're still talking about nitpicks, I've got one that always really bugged me. In "The Reckoning" the clones are more or less photonegatives of the gargoyles from which they are cloned. I don't mind that so much, but I do mind that it includes the insides of their mouths and teeth. They all have black teeth, and green mouths, with the exception of Thailog. That bugged me. And it also bugged me that every male clone's sclerae, the "whites" of their eyes, were red. Female gargoyles' sclerae aren't red. Their eyes should only be red when glowing. It's something I hope they fix in the comics.

And, I agree with Matt, the Mayan clan rocks. No pun intended. :)
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 1:39:54 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

Demon@> Well, sorta, Goliath reveresed is Htailog, not Thailog. Ya know, I never even knew how to spell Thailog's name until Elisa wrote it down in "Sanctuary". That's when it clicked that it was Goliath's name backwards... sorta. Anyway, guess I never watched the credits that closely.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 12:35:09 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Yeah Todd, I agree with Broadway about destroying the scrolls.

You've got a good point about how Macbeth talks about King Arthur, and what it indicates about his character.

Sadistic Cow: That's an interesting idea about the "clan" moment. Hudson is the one Gargoyle with an accent.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 11:21:19 am EST from 209.162.56.94

Hey Have you notice tha Thailog is Goliath written all the way around?? :D
Demon@
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 11:06:01 am EST from 200.125.112.59

HofEyes> I don't care what you say. "The Green" rules, and the Mayan Clan is the best. : )
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 10:10:20 am EST from 24.207.163.239

I've always been fond of "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time". A lot of it is due to its introducing the Arthurian elements into "Gargoyles", but much of it also is thanks to how they were handled. Most animated series, if they run long enough and have a set-up that allows them to make use of "real-world legends", bring in King Arthur, his knights, or Merlin at some point. What made "Gargoyles" different was the depth that it gave its treatment of them. Merlin isn't just some old white-bearded medieval wizard in it. It uses his magical skills for a red herring (everyone believes that the scrolls contain his spells, a la the Grimorum Arcanorum), but the focus is really on his role as King Arthur's tutor instead. So it turns out that the scrolls are really his memoirs about his mentoring the young Arthur, and even more significantly, they serve as a means of instructing Hudson and Broadway in the value of being able to read. And alongside that, we get Macbeth's big speech over Merlin's achievement in bringing up Arthur and inspiring him to found Camelot.

Macbeth's speech is important in another way; it's an indication that, despite his being the antagonist in the episode, who steals Merlin's scrolls, captures Broadway, and is even ready to use him as a guinea-pig, he's got something higher and nobler in him. Note that, when he's talking about Merlin and Arthur, what Macbeth dwells on are that Camelot was a place of "beauty and civilization" and that Arthur "ruled with justice and compassion". Anyone who would focus on those elements rather than on, say, Arthur having an invincible magic sword and a lot of very able knights at his round table, clearly has nobler aspirations deep down inside. I think that it particularly helps to prepare us for what we discover about Macbeth in "City of Stone".

One side-note on the inscription on Merlin's chest: I always thought (before Greg explained about it in the ramble) that it was connected to the true nature of the Scrolls' contents. That is, because the Scrolls turn out to be about Merlin's life rather than a collection of his spells, they would indeed be far more useful to "the seeker of knowledge" than to "the destroyer" ("destroyer", in this sense, meaning somebody who'd want to use Merlin's magical secrets for their own goals, such as Macbeth in this episode - and I think that Demona and the Archmage would both also have wanted to get their hands on Merlin's spells if they'd had the opportunity). In fact, no matter how heavy-handed Broadway might have been sounding at the end, I definitely agree with him that it was important to protect the Scrolls. An eyewitness account of Arthur's time period written by Merlin himself; that would have to be one of the greatest archaeological discoveries in the entire century! Just think how the Scrolls' discovery would have revolutionized Arthurian scholarship!
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 7:43:16 am EST from 4.244.210.57

I lack sleep now, pardon my inability to think, spell, or recall words I ought to know. XD (And I really need to stop making long posts. o.O )

Vaevictis - "At times the Moral came across heavy-handed, particularly Broadway's sudden "conversion" when the passage from the scrolls that Macbeth read to him, wasn't really that evocative."

I agree with you on that, though I think that Broadway's mind was mostly changed when Macbeth was rambling in his aircraft thing, and Broadway said, "You were there...!" And Macbeth told him that he had read it. The look on Broadway's face there (as well as the tone of awe in his voice) makes me think that was either his mind changing, or the beginning of his mind change.

"Come to think of it, what are Xanatos' goals, besides a replacement Gargoyle clan? Why does he want government weapons? Why does he want Gargoyles? What would he do with them? He's already super-rich."

I want government weapons! And I'd want Gargoyles, if they were available. XD Not to actually DO much of anything with them; like Blaise (I think) said, I'd want them just because I could have them. (Though Xanatos has larger goals than I could ever dream up, and more money I could ever make... XD) Government weapons and Gargoyles would be an asset to him for certain plots/goals, and having them available for him to use or manipulate should the need arise would be preferable, since they would be decent additions to his resources.

"Macbeth is so rich, he either has his mansion rebuilt really quick, or he had at least two of them."

Personally, I think the whole rebuilding of the mansion so quick thing was a result of a lack of time. The episodes are what, 22 minutes? - I doubt they had time to get into it, and they probably cut a few corners there. Though it wouldn't surprise me if Macbeth was stinking rich; he was a king once, after all, and after living as long as he has I'll bet he managed to collect a nice, tidy sum over the centuries.

"A few nitpicks are: 1. The scientists ought to react in some way to the swirling blue stuff. Most scientists probably don't believe in magic, but they ought to react somehow."

Probably another lack of time to deal with it issue. Though you're right; if I was a scientist and I saw swirling blue stuff and so on (hell, I don't even have to be a scientist), I'd be weirded out. Though they might have rationalized it as something else; when weird things happen, people tend to try and rationalize it ("It was just a dust cloud. It was dark in there, and I was nervous/excited, and it was a trick of my flashlight.") Or, you know, somethin.

"3. And when Hudson mentions his "clan," Jeff doesn't react to what would be, for a human, a rather strange comment."

Hudson's accent must have tipped Jeffrey off that Hudson was Scottish, and the Scots are one of a couple cultures that use (or did use, since I don't know if they still use it) the term "clan" to describe their family. Jeffrey is a learned man, and a writer, so he probably didn't think much of an "old soldier" using the term, though maybe it did tip him off that Hudson was unusual. (Wikipedia reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan I love Wikipedia! XD Hah.)

"My number one confusion: Why is Merlin's diary buried in the US? If it wasn't found in the US, why is it being taken by the US government and the NYPD? I don't get it."

Probably because they couldn't get away with taking Elisa and the clan away from the US for the episode. ;) If it was found in the US, then Merlin sure knew how to get around. If it wasn't, maybe: a) because Americans found it, they were entitled to it, or b) somebody paid the country it was found in a crapload of money for it, or c) it was a joint effort between countries and there was a group of historians from all countries involved meeting in one place, which happened to be the States. Though I have no idea right now; I'll have to watch it again to see. Me + mornings = GUH. @_@

At least, those are my thoughts on it. ^^; Hope they make sense. XD

I like hearing your thoughts on the eps, too, Vaevictis. I do hope you continue. :D
The Sadistic Cow
I believe the children are our future... unless we stop them NOW!
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 7:37:04 am EST from 24.150.120.87

I too liked this episode a lot. One of the more amusing moments to me was right after Robbins has finished his little motivational speech to Hudson, the sun starts to rise and Hudson says he has to go. To which Robbins replies, "Now I've run you off with my preaching." I actually enjoyed what he said to Hudson, though. Which reminds me. A while ago, someone in here was compiling favorite Gargoyles quotes from people for some purpose that I now forget. I wonder what became of that project.

Anyway...

I always looked upon Broadway laying it on a little thick at the end because Goliath was holding Merlin's life story over a firepot, and needed to be talked down. I too liked the role reversal there, since earlier Macbeth had spoken so passionately about what Merlin did (like he'd been there), and Broadway learned that he'd only read about it.

Overall, I thought this did its job better than "The Green" (sorry, Matt).

Vaevictus: I too was someone who had a lot of things cleared up by Greg's ramble. Most notably what the blue light's purpose was. To me, that actually improved the episode. Had the two scientists not been seekers of knowledge, Merlin's magical ward probably would have fried them.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"If every girl I ever dumped put out a hit on me, I'd have to go to Rome and steal the Pope-mobile again." -Upright Citizens' Brigade.
posted @ Tue, Jan 9, 2007 7:21:16 am EST from 71.62.204.109

****Blaise's disembodied head fades into view in the Comment Room.**** Hey all! Just trying to multi-task and finding a difficult time of it.

VAEVICTIS ASMADI> As always it's great to hear your thoughts--keep 'em coming!
--Xanatos is unique in that he doesn't have just one "ultimate goal." Yes, he'd like to have his own team of..."super-beings" (for lack of a better term). And immortality (for his family as well as himself) is a prime goal in his life. But ultimately, Xanatos acquires things for the same reason Captain Kirk climbs a mountain--"Because it's there."
--The scientists probably never noticed all the blue swirly stuff. At least that's the impression I got. They must've known *something* happened but were probably more preoccupied with "What's in the Box."
--In comparison to their other enemies (with the possible exception of Xanatos) Macbeth is a bit of an odd duck when it comes to how he treats the gargoyles--he has no compunction against fighting them, but he'd not "stoop so low" as to shatter them in their sleep. Funny that his action figure came with a "stone blasting" weapon. ;-) But his "code of honor" (that even as an antagonist he sticks to) is part of what makes him unique.
--Re: Hudson recognizing Jeffrey Robbins as a blind man. Well...maybe he's seen blind people with dark glasses and dogs on TV and made the connection.
--The phonebook coloring always threw me, too.
--I rather like the episode myself (I've been looking over my own response/ramble to Greg's in the archives), but, yeah Broadway's little inspirational at the end is always a bit...thick. In a way, it sort of fits his character, but it is a bit of a MSTable moment.
But trust me, as far as being preachy goes, this episode has NOTHING on the "Goliath Chronicles" ep "Runaways."

Later folks--I've got to deal with late payments (that's the downside of the holidays: the financial fallout). Ah well. Until then, farewell. ****Blaise takes a deep breath, gives a grunt of effort, and grows the rest of his body out of the bottom of his head. After dusting himself off, Blaise nonchalantly strolls out of the Room.****
Blaise
"Well, it's nothing very special. Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."--Monty Python's Meaning of Life
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 11:46:57 pm EST from 4.233.122.7

Jurgan > Argh no, that's not a spoiler, that's a reminder of what I should have remembered from Enter Macbeth last week. Of course he's after Demona, he said so himself! *facepalm* :)
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 10:51:40 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

I'd never thought about it before until reading Jurgen's comment, but it makes sense that Macbeth would want to test out some of spells on Broadway since he was ultimately wanting to use the spells on Demona and perhaps wanted to see how certain spells affected a gargoyle...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 10:41:36 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

From what I remember, the Scrolls were found overseas in Great Britain and were being sent over to the US to be studied and translated. The reason Maza and Bluestone were there were for added security, which was definitely a good, but futile, call.
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
Pheon
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 10:40:16 pm EST from 157.242.220.131

I don't think it's too much of a spoiler (since I think you already know) to say that Macbeth's ultimate goal at that point in the series is to get Demona. He steals the scrolls because he thinks they'll have magic to use against her, and when he realizes they don't, he's willing to get rid of them. I think the reason he lets Broadway go is because he hears something he can respect in Broadway's talk of the value of reading. Macbeth is pretty far gone morally at that point in the series, but he appreciates the power of knowledge and is moved by the fact that Broadway understood it better than he himself does.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- that's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 10:32:15 pm EST from 71.226.160.29

I must say, "Lighthouse..." is one of my least favorite episodes. There are parts I like about it, and I'm all for teaching the importance of literacy, but the episode is so preachy I feel like I'm watching an after school special, the animation is rough, and there are some plot problems that probably came about because the message was being pushed so hard that the story came second.

Just my two cents.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 10:25:09 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Yeah, the coloring also gives the false impression that he's all Othello. Of course if he had flesh colors, it would be apparent already in Reawakening that he had parts from three gargs.

I watched Lighthouse this evening. Reading the memos/rambles afterwards is really helping me figure out what is happening. The lyre, for example -- in the episode it was not clear at all that wind was blowing on it. And I thought that Macbeth was saying that he had sealed Merlin's scrolls, instead of Merlin sealing them. Very confusing.

Overall this was a neat episode. At times the Moral came across heavy-handed, particularly Broadway's sudden "conversion" when the passage from the scrolls that Macbeth read to him, wasn't really that evocative. But overall it was nice. I always like the historical/Arthurian/mythological episodes best.

I expected Jeff to teach Hudson to read, but that didn't happen. Maybe Hudson will visit him again later. It's interesting that Hudson has been in NYC for only a short time and he already recognizes that dark glasses and a guard dog indicate a blind person.

Macbeth's behavior is confusing. First he says he'll let Broadway go, then he threatens to experiment on him, then lets him go anyway. Greg acknowledges the erratic behavior in the ramble. I wonder what's up with Macbeth, though. He doesn't really seem to have any clear goals. Come to think of it, what are Xanatos' goals, besides a replacement Gargoyle clan? Why does he want government weapons? Why does he want Gargoyles? What would he do with them? He's already super-rich.
When he came to Jeff's house, I was really worried that he'd try to smash Hudson to get the scroll.

Macbeth is so rich, he either has his mansion rebuilt really quick, or he had at least two of them. And that pseudonym is actually his legal name? Heh. I guess Macbeth either expects most people won't get it like Jeff does, or else he doesn't care and/or thinks it's amusing.

A few nitpicks are: 1. The scientists ought to react in some way to the swirling blue stuff. Most scientists probably don't believe in magic, but they ought to react somehow.
2. When Jeff opens the phone book, the animators drew the book he authored instead.
3. And when Hudson mentions his "clan," Jeff doesn't react to what would be, for a human, a rather strange comment.

My number one confusion: Why is Merlin's diary buried in the US? If it wasn't found in the US, why is it being taken by the US government and the NYPD? I don't get it.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 9:55:14 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Coldstone's Brain> Well, considering that Coldstone can still move all his stone parts, I's think that his stone brain would still function as well. I mean, Demona's spell brought his dead parts to life, much like a zombie. The missing parts were replaced with robotic parts, but generally speaking he is living stone, or rather living organic mass resembling stone... He is kinda like the zombie-goyles in "Shadows of the Past".

Anyway, I think he would've been a lot cooler if his eye and hair were stone as well. At the very least it would've made it visually clear that he is reanimated gray stone now, and not his old pale blue color. I mean, if he had been a green or purple or whatever colored gargoyle, he would've been a lot more obviously reanimated stone. His skin color and stone color are just too similiar.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 8:37:56 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Vaevictus: "Legion" was one of those episodes that, for the longest time, I couldn't figure out what the hell was going on. When I watched it more recently on the DVD, it finally clicked in my mind just what Michael Dorn was doing. Which actually made his portrayal of the three personalities that much better. Probably because, being clueless for the longest time, I shared the confusion of Goliath and the others.

It's funny someone should mention Coldstone's hair and eye. DTaina and I were trying to compile small nits about Gargoyles just the other night (well, I was trying to, but I think she did most of the work). Never stopped to think about that one. I suppose that if they were that specific, then half of his brain would be stone as well, and then he might lose some faculties. Unless his whole brain is cybernetic. By the way, the list we compiled was not that large. Which to me says lots about the quality of this show.

Todd: It's interesting to think of Thailog maturing a little. But at the same time, it's not surprising. We've already seen how characters can grow. Now if only Thailog could develop some less antisocial tendencies. And also, someone should tell Ruby not to infer that Katana is going to be a ho. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Do I deserve to be? Is that the question? And if so, if so, who answers?" -Pearl Jam ("Alive")
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 8:03:59 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Desdemona's design> I agree that I love her design. There's an elegance to her, and it comes out in her character as well.

Coldstone's voices> Ditto on the liking the one actor, multiple aspects. And it makes it all that more surreal, especially from the point of view of the cast. I mean, here's Coldstone, and one second he's in Othello/Coldstone's personality, and the next there's this confusion and respect of Desdemona, and the slyness of Iago. Wish I could have sat in for that recording session.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 7:57:50 pm EST from 71.12.195.1

Greg made a new startling revelation at "Ask Greg" today: Thailog might be no longer as interested as he used to be in getting rid of Goliath (or Xanatos) - because he's picked up Xanatos's dislike of waste.

Count me as another person who liked Michael Dorn voicing all three souls inside Coldstone with variants. For that matter, Vaevictis, I think that you'll be pleasantly surprised by "Possession" for the same reason, if you ever get to see it.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 7:15:07 pm EST from 4.244.18.98

Vaevictis Asmadi, I agree about keeping Coldstone's voice the same. He may be made up of different gargoyles, but obviously his voicebox is his own. Changing his voice would certainly be illogical, as it would be against his own biology. Michael Dorn did a good job of changing his tone to still sound like Coldstone, but have that aspect of Iago or Desdemona. It made it that much more beleivable. And understandable when Goliath and Co. had no idea what the hell was going on.
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 6:48:31 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

Sorry for the double post... again...

Yeah, I think you are right. I think we went over this before, though I'm not sure how Greg W ended up putting it. Maybe I'll spend a little time looking through the archives to figure it out, I don't think he said it so clearly in Ask Greg.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 6:38:17 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Count me in as another person who thinks Coldstone would be way cooler (and it would make a lot more sense) if his eye and hair had been stone also. I love Colstone, but think how cool it would be if he was blind in that eye. I mean he'd be much more frankenstein zombie-esque if everything was stone except the mechanical parts...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 5:38:23 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Vaevictis> "One effect that did bother me was the electrical nimbus that surrounds Goliath and Coldstone when he turns on the VR thingy. It makes no sense for VR to do that, and it seems unnecessary . . . In the Legion memo it is described as a magical aura, but the VR itself isn't magical, so why would it do that?"

I would imagine that was some reaction from the magic involved in the reanimation of Coldstone. As Hudson said (paraphrase): "I know magic when I see it, and this is the darkest."
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
Pheon
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 5:22:34 pm EST from 157.242.218.6

Yeah, I remember Greg Weisman talked to us about this and said that biologically, Gargoyles can't reproduce more than three times in their life, even if they live on Avalon. Or at least he strongly implied it -- his wording wasn't entirely clear.

I'd never heard before that Avalonian eggs have to hatch on an actual Earthly hatching year. This is something that Greg W. made explicit? I'll have to remember that.

So, Legion! Zombie cyborg gargoyle posessed by computer virus with voices in his head! Yay!

*I love Goliath's expression when he first enters the VR. Very funny.
*Hudson's wisdom is so often right, but when he says "I know sorcery when I see it" he is completely off. Goliath is only trapped in virtual reality by a computer virus.
*I'm really liking Matt Bluestone. He's an interesting character. And even though he seems like a nice guy and I vaguely know that eventually he'll find out about the Gargoyles and not have it in for them, I'm still anxious to see when and how he finds out about them, and how he reacts.
*Desdemona is a very pretty Gargoyle. Her wings and head are very cool. For some reason she looks Egyptian to me, even though I know that makes no sense.
*I'm very, very glad that Greg decided to make Coldstone speak with one voice. So often in cartoons, the writers assume that posession causes characters to speak with different voices. I have always found that convention childish, illogical, and stupid.
I this case, because of spoilers, I knew why he was going nuts and could sometimes tell who was in control at different times, but it definately still made the effect better, and more confusing (and amusing) to give the cyborg only a single voice.
*One effect that did bother me was the electrical nimbus that surrounds Goliath and Coldstone when he turns on the VR thingy. It makes no sense for VR to do that, and it seems unnecessary. It might add to the tension to make Goliath visually look normal, but sit there in a daze, so you can't even tell if he's still hooked up, or if his mind is just gone, or what.
In the Legion memo it is described as a magical aura, but the VR itself isn't magical, so why would it do that?
*Goliath invites Coldstone to the clock tower without asking why the cops were fighting him. He seems to assume that the humans attacked him for some not-very-good reason and that nothing is actually wrong. I think this is in character for Goliath, though. His comment to Lexington about trust is very Goliath. And Lex is the suspicious one, because of his past experiences with the Pack.
*I like the metallic crunch when Broadway tackles Coldstone. Broadway has a tough skull.
*I still wonder why Coldstone has hair and a fleshy eye, when he is made of stone instead of flesh.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Jan 8, 2007 4:16:31 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending January 15, 2007

Index : Hide Images