Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

You can see screen-caps of lots of gargs here: http://lynativerse.artchicks.org/Screencaps/GargCaps.htm
And Ophelia does have only three toes per foot (if you include the heel-claw-thing). But don't forget that Una has hooves: that's only ONE toe per foot.

I watched Kingdom last night. This was an interesting episode. Fang and Claw really made a great atmosphere. Fang is such a jerk but he has great lines. Claw is pretty funny. The best was probably when Fang was banging on the weapons tube to open it, and Claw just dangled the key card in his face. But the pantomime (and then hiding inside his wings) was pretty great, too. I think those are the only two times I've seen Claw actually attempt to communicate. He is well characterised here as a strong but very timid guy. He's clearly afraid of Fang hurting him, and feels that Talon is not leader enough to come to defend him from Fang, until the end. He disagrees with Fang but is afraid to assert himself. I really liked how his feelings were shown clearly just with his body language and facial expressions.

I also liked how Brooklyn and Maggie managed to get Talon free, that was clever.

Brooklyn shows that he is a capable leader, even though he lacks some confidence and doesn't want to be replacing Goliath. And I liked how Hudson gently steered him into his role, instead of harshly forcing him.

Derek is still using his feelings instead of his brain. Brooklyn was right, that they shouldn't have gone to Xanatos.

The one thing I really didn't like was the Eyrie building "defense" system. Considering all the episodes in which towers have been blown off the castle, there shouldn't be any towers left after this episode. I wonder if the show's continuity includes progressive changes in how the castle looks.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sun, Jan 21, 2007 11:34:30 am EST from 209.162.56.94

Matt> "Wow, never noticed that before. I think you are right about Ophelia's toes, I'm going to check it out on the DVD soon, but I think you are correct. Man, Ophelia is quite odd among her clan-mates."

So far that we have seen... of her clan or Wyvern. Who knows, she may be more typical than we think....
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley
posted @ Sun, Jan 21, 2007 8:57:29 am EST from 74.129.251.212

Kythera> Wow, never noticed that before. I think you are right about Ophelia's toes, I'm going to check it out on the DVD soon, but I think you are correct. Man, Ophelia is quite odd among her clan-mates.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sun, Jan 21, 2007 8:28:27 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Greg Bishansky> Who? Me or the other Ed?
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.
posted @ Sun, Jan 21, 2007 2:18:05 am EST from 69.95.28.224

GBishansky, Phoenician, and all others> Thank you. I was thinking maybe the platypus, but didn't have time to look it up myself.

GBishansky> Several. To me, it's fun. I'm also an obsessive bitcher.

Harvestor> I personally like the answer "because it's a cartoon". I probably would be more satisfied with an answer of "Because" than "Avalon provided". Maybe I would enjoy the show more if GW didn't try to bring it into the "real" world. That's probably the reason I have VERY rarely looked at Ask Greg.
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: How the Grinch Stole Christmas (it's right after the Hoosiers OST in my collection)
posted @ Sun, Jan 21, 2007 2:05:52 am EST from 63.20.13.17

Just remembered, I believe Amazon has issue 2 available.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Jan 21, 2007 1:25:45 am EST from 74.61.186.169

I get my copies of Gargoyles at the comic shop. I believe Hastings might sell them, as they do sell monthly comics.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Jan 21, 2007 1:23:47 am EST from 74.61.186.169

Thats okey, i ve already give up on that matter. Getting the dvds was all an Odyssey. But thks anyway :)
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Sun, Jan 21, 2007 12:36:52 am EST from 201.235.88.204

Oh, it's a nightmare getting hold of it. I still haven't got #2 ordered anywhere. Ace already let me down, Mega City are okay if you're ordering loads but penalise you for ordering fewer than a dozen comics or something like that (and saying that, I don't think they have #2 anyway). Amazon.com now have it and it works out cheapest from them of the ones I've found (somewhere north of £6 including shipping), also SLG (closer to £9). But have a look at the Diamond Store Locator (http://csls.diamondcomics.com/csls_global.asp). I found an obscure gaming shop relatively near me which they claim sell comics. I'm going to check it out when I get a moment and see if they can order them in regularly. Otherwise, I'll probably just order #2 and #3 together from Amazon or SLG, wherever #3 appears first. Sorry, I can't really be much help.
Ed
posted @ Sun, Jan 21, 2007 12:06:09 am EST from 213.187.39.245

Matt> That is truly fascinating. I apologize for making a grander claim than perhaps I was ready to make. My field of expertise ( if one could even call it that) is limited mostly to primate evolution. I am truly interested in anything you have to share. Perhaps if you ever wished to collaborate, we could work together on a plausible garg-evolutionary line based on facts in evidence. Either way, whether you choose this forum or that of a paper, I would love to read it.

Thank you.
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 11:25:27 pm EST from 74.129.251.212

Matt: ah, ok.

VA and Hoe: hehe, maybe it's better not to think about it ;) But that's an interesting theory about slimy substance evolving into the stone like substance. I suppose the bacteria keeps them alive without oxygen...or maybe they're bodies somehow absorb oxygen while their sleeping...I dunno, my head hurts! lol
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
Drop by my Deviantart page
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 11:09:19 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

I believe Ed is able to get the comic shipped to him in England.

Ed, if you're reading, care to help Demon@ out? Who do you order from?
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 9:26:20 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Well ive been trying to get the comic too, but no website has it for international shipping :( so im out of new comic stories, snif..
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 9:22:35 pm EST from 201.235.88.204

Addendum to Matt's comment, re: digits--

I believe Ophelia also only has three toes, like Sora.
Kythera of Anevern
I do not suffer fools, gladly or otherwise.
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 9:19:41 pm EST from 65.169.99.145

Was talking on to some people about the yet to be released Gargoyles Season Two Volume Two. Just out of curiousity, what have you done to support Gargoyles so far.

To my regret, not as much as I wanted to. The library in my area obtained the existing releases a year ago. I pick up two copies of the monthly comic, one for me, the second for my brother.

Any of you having better luck.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 8:32:44 pm EST from 71.115.231.16

Matt> Ah, it comes up again. I have nothing to add, as your theory sounds pretty solid and every time I try to add anything I can't get it out right. When you get that paper done, I'd like to see it.
Asatira
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 8:13:43 pm EST from 66.168.253.117

I'm currently guessing that it originated in a secretion or slime coating, which evolved into a stone-like crust, and finally the body cells evolved the ability to encrust like bacterial spores. Or something. If then entire body does become completely stone, then the cells would have to hibernate so they don't need oxygen.

Do you mean the green Ishimuran gargoyle with the beak? I had not noticed that before, quite odd. Although I so far we have seen no gargoyles with more than four fingers or toes, and that includes the garg-beasts.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 8:01:56 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Purplegoldfish: Since they actually turn into an organic substance that resembles stone, maybe one of the chemical properties of that substance does something to keep them alive. Or it could be likened to a deeper form of hibernation. When animals hibernate, their metabolisms slow considerably.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Lisa, maybe if I'm a part of that mob, I can help steer it in wise directions. Now where's my giant foam cowboy hat and air horn?" -Homer Simpson
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 5:17:42 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

There has been no confirmation from Greg W on which Maza sibling Natsilane Maza is descended from. That entry could be right or could be wrong, in any case, it shouldn't guess. That's an error.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 4:15:07 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Vaevictis> Actually, there is a gargoyle in Ishimura that only has three fingers (two fingers and a thumb). Ishimura is full of gargoyles with weird amounts of digits. Kai's wings contain an impressive six digits, while Sora's wings only have one digit, and Yama's wings are enigmatic. Most Ishimura gargoyles have four fingers and four toes, but Sora only has three toes, and there is the other garg I mentioned with three fingers. Ishimura gargoyles are very distinct.

Justin> The Therapsids are a subgroup within the Synapsids. Basically, there were a couple (actually many, but I'm gonna focus on a couple) splits in mammal-like reptile evolution. From the main reptile line, the evolutionary tree split into two, the Diapsids (which would go on to evolve into all modern reptiles, the dinosuars, pterodactyls, icthyosaurs, birds, etc.) and the Synapsids (which would evolve into the Pelycosaurs, Therapsids and ultimately, the mammals).
While you have narrowed down your Gargate branching point to somewhere in the Therapsid line, I'm not so certain we know enough to pin it down that narrowly. I'm pretty confident Gargates originated in the Synapsid (mammal-like reptiles) line, but feel that while it might have been from Therapsids, it could also have been from the Pelycosaurs. I have serious doubts they evolved from mammals at some point.
Since the heyday of all the Synapsids was during the Permian Period, and for other reasons, I firmly believe that Gargates got their start then, though at the time I doubt any of us would recognize them as such. They may not even have turned to "stone" during the day until millions of years later, but I think they got their evolutionary start in the Permian. The End Permian Extinction hit all life on Earth very hard and I think the rule was learn to survive or go extinct FAST. I think Gargates were one group that developed some interesting survival strategies at this time. If you want more info, I could spell the whole thing out here. I'm currently considering writing an actual paper on the matter, however.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 3:57:24 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Vaevictis: yeah, for some people that's the only way to watch them...which is uncool. I taped them a while ago when I had Toon Disney.

okay, this is totally off topic, but I found something interesting. I was looking at the Gargoyles Wikipedia page (not the wiki) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargoyles_%28animated_series%29.

Spoiler alert...

According to the page, Nick Natsilane Maza from 2198 is descended from goliath and elisa's adopted child; as opposed to any of Beth's or derek's children (can Derek and Maggie even have kids? Maybe they'll adopt too).
Has this been confirmed? Who wrote the spinoff section?

END Spoiler...

Another off topic question: When the gargoyles enter stone sleep, their internal organs turn to "stone" as well, right?
So I'm wondering if the gargs' hearts are encased in stone, what exactly keeps them alive? Does the heart continue beating within the stone shell?
Sorry if this has been asked before, I don't remember it being talked about.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
Drop by my Deviantart page
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 3:45:18 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

Matt> Interesting. I know of "therapsids" in my research, but not of "Synapsids". If you have any information that you could relay to me it would be much appreciated. Therapsids were very literally a species at the dusk of reptilian domination and at the "dawn of mammals" type organism. So perhaps my research is flawed or missing some pieces. I would love your input on all of this.
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 2:41:53 pm EST from 74.129.251.212

Vaevictus: Sadly, if you don't get ToonDisney, I can't think of any other way. : (
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Bill Watterson
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 12:16:21 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

<<And, believe it or not, the Thunderbird having another face in its chest apparently is the way that it actually was depicted in legend, rather than an invention of the animators.>>

I figured that. There is a sea monster in Northwest Coast legend which has no less than three faces: one on each end and a third one in the middle.

Purplegoldfish: Yes, I did download the rest of Season Two from one of those illegal websites. I don't like it, but that seems to be the only way to watch them at all.

Samuel: I have looked up screencaps of all the gargoyles from different regions of the world. Their feet and wings vary quite a bit, but they all have exactly the same hands! But of course Goliath could not have known that.

Lynati: I see no reason why gargoyles can't also have one hole (a cloaca). Monotremes have less of the features that other mammals have, but they've been evolving for exactly the same length of time as every other living species on earth. "Primitive" is only a very subjective word.
Of all living animals, monotremes are the most similar to gargates. There is no reason to assume that monotremes are too "primitive" to be related to a sentient race such as gargoyles.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 11:35:06 am EST from 209.162.56.94

The male platypus is also the only mammal that is venomous. It has a spike on each back foot that can inject venom. It's purely a defensive weapon though.
Siren - [Click my name for my music videos!]
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 10:24:44 am EST from 67.8.165.253

Blaqthorne: Honestly, I don't think there are any cop outs. If Greg doesn't want to give a detailed answer, that's fine with me. Some things are better left to the imagination. I, for one, hope he never reveals what Titania told Fox.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Bill Watterson
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 9:31:33 am EST from 71.62.204.109

For the record there are two seperate species of living Echidnas, and they with the Platypus make up the entire Monotreme Order.

As a student of evolutionary biology myself, I also came to the conclusion several years ago that Gargates most likely descended from the Synapsids (aka mammal-like reptiles). I believe I've explained my theories out before, so I'll leave it at that.

Oh, and one more thing, don't be so quick to say the Monotremes are "less evolved" than whatever else. First off, the statement "less evolved" makes very little sense scientifically, evolution isn't a ladder with bacteria on the bottom and humans on the top. Bacteria have been evolving for much longer than humans and will be around long after humans have gone extinct, at least on Earth anyway. Secondly, keep in mind that monotremes have been around a lot longer than marsupial and placental mammals (and certainly a lot longer than humans) and it is unfair to call them "lesser" simply because the order contains less species than it once did. Monotreme mammals were once the vast majority of mammals (and who knows?, perhaps they will be again), and placental mammals are currently the major type. That doesn't make one group "better" than then other. Things change with time, and not always for the better. Would you say that George W Bush is a better President than George Washington simply because Bush is the current President and has succeded all previous Presidents? Monotremes are fine animals, and don't deserve to be called "less evolved", "inferior", or "primitive". Perhaps they will go extinct, perhaps they will outlive all other types of mammals, no one can say.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 8:30:16 am EST from 24.207.163.239

If I may make a comment on monotremes. The platypus and echkidna are the two living examples. In the GU Gargates also count in a certain way. I am studying evolutionary biology and it seems to me that these three separate species maybe distant descendants of a long extinct "bridge" between reptilian and mammalian evolutions called a "therapsid". This animal was reptilian in nature but grew hair, and nursed its young after they hatched.

Just an interesting tid bit from evolutionary science.
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 5:00:09 am EST from 74.129.251.212

Monotremes are considered very unevolved, though. Farther back in the developmental chain than mammals by far. They don't have nipples; their young "nurse" by licking the milk off of the parent's skin and fur after it is excreted through the skin. They only have one orifice through which they lay eggs *and* pass all excrement, hence the name "mono-treme"; one hole. Those are just the two most obvious attributes that make a close connection unlikely; the more you look at the order monotremata, the further away from gargoyles they appear. The chances of them being close to gargates in taxonomy is slim, the egg-laying/milk-producing similarity aside.
They were my first stop, too,back when I started looking this stuff up- because of that obvious "surface" similarity.
Lynati
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 4:22:50 am EST from 69.154.241.236

And the Echidna. Both the Platypus and the Echidna are part of the Mammel Branch that lays eggs . . . the Monotremes!
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
Pheon
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 2:55:49 am EST from 157.242.209.243

Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury> The platypus.

Anyone ever tell you that you are an obsessive nit-picker?
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 2:47:53 am EST from 67.87.175.245

Question: Is there any species that lays eggs and also nurses their young?

Avalon provided> This seems to me to be a cop-out. This is an easy way to explain away anything that happens on the island. I can imagine someone asking GW if gargoyles nurse their young. Then when told they do, asks, well then how do you explain the Avalon eggs. And GW hemming and hawing, and then giving the "Avalon provided" answer.
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: Princess Mononoke Image Album
posted @ Sat, Jan 20, 2007 1:45:42 am EST from 207.207.40.250

Thanks all for the compliments on my newest video. Expect another Gargoyles one soon. But the newer one will have a touch of humor and wit to it. Not at all serious, but a lot of fun to watch (and make)
Siren - [Click my name for my music videos!]
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 11:05:29 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

oh, I guess both-I consider them part of the same scene
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
Drop by my Deviantart page
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 10:55:45 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

PURPLEGOLDFISH - Which scene? The Bronx one or the hug one?
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 9:19:10 pm EST from 4.245.18.55

Todd: In a way, it also displays his arrogance, since he so casually wields the magic, but can't control it without the Eye of Odin.
Harvester of Eyes
Can't clowns and pirates just TRY to get along?
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 8:28:38 pm EST from 71.62.226.117

:) Sorry I haven't said much recently.

Shadows of the Past is one my most favoured episodes. I personally think the animation is spectacular, and the darkness in the story goes beyond any other cartoon I've ever seen. The zombie-goyles were pretty awesome too. n.n

I don't know if Raven's lack of tail/other gargoyle features would've bothered Goliath, it might actually be normal for non-Wyvern gargoyles to have more or less features. In an episode that VA hasn't seen yet, there's a clanleader who has six wing-digits (I think it's six), and according to the Garg-Wiki, one of the female gargoyles in the clan only has three digits on her feet. I've only seen the episode once, so I can't remember her feet, but I do remember the wings.

So... We'll see how it all plays out in the comics.

:)
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 8:22:11 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

Todd Jensen: heh, that scene you mention takes the episode from "meh" to "good".

Vaevictis: It looks like you're nearing the end of the dvd's. Do you have a way to watch the rest of the series?

BTW: The Gargwiki is Incredible! Wow, obviously a lot of love and dedication there. It would be cool if it were advertised in the comic(last page).
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
Drop by my Deviantart page
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 7:47:52 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

One of my favorite parts of "Heritage" is the scene where Bronx chases the bear off Elisa, then sticks his head out of the bush where the scuffle took place, looking very pleased with himself. Followed by the very moving moment where Goliath arrives, finds out that Elisa is safe, and the two of them briefly hug.

One of the leading features of this episode is that, for the first time, we see a mythological source other than the British Isles - namely, the legends of the Native Americans (Grandmother, Raven, the Thunderbird, totem poles).

And, believe it or not, the Thunderbird having another face in its chest apparently is the way that it actually was depicted in legend, rather than an invention of the animators.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 7:37:37 pm EST from 4.245.20.234

I totally missed that they were insubstantial.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 5:34:19 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Vaevistis> I can't answer a most of your questions, but I can tell you that Angela realized Raven's "gargoyles" were fake when she noticed the Thunderbird's wings passing right through them. They were intangible. The lack of true gargoyle features (such as the lack of a proper gargoyle scent) may have tipped her off too, it certainly didn't fool Bronx.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 4:35:02 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I watched Heritage. This is another episode where I read the spoilers before I thought of buying the DVD. So the main surprise was more or less ruined. I was still surprised when Grandmother turned into the Thunderbird (with a face in its belly -- yuck!) and admitted that she was the Sea Monster, too.

*It is an interesting idea to explore the question of totem poles -- which turn out to have nothing to do with gargoyles.
*I wonder why the humans don't notice Grandmother's pointed ears. Or maybe they do notice but assume it's not supernatural. How weird would a Child of Oberon's humanoid shape have to be before humans would realize something was up? As weird-looking as Puck?
*Goliath hadn't met any other clans from around the world yet, but I had looked at pictures of them (out of curiosity, which is how I accidentally learned Raven is not a garg) and all of them have four fingers per hand. Raven's "gargoyle" shape has five fingers per hand, and no tail. Goliath didn't notice (and probably didn't want to), but I did. I wonder if that was what tipped Angela off, or if it was something else.
*Elisa tries to convince Natsilane that gargoyles are real, and she even asks casually about them being on totem poles. She would never be so open in New York, so why does she talk like that in Canada? It can't just be because Nick is a Native American, that would be a silly reason. She does this even before she understands what Raven is up to.

The art in this episode bothered me a lot. Raven's bird form doesn't look like a raven: it has yellow beak and feet instead of black ones, and its tail is shaped wrong. But the biggest problem was when Natsilane showed up dressed like a Plains Indian! I winced. The artists or directors or whoever should have researched the Haida better than that.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 4:24:54 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Vaevictus: <The Captain's change of heart was abrupt but I think, fairly believable. It is more out of character for him to harass and attack Goliath than to feel guilt about the massacre. But it is in character for him to sit around and let Hakon harass and attack Goliath without stopping him. Also, I think both of them had gone barmy after haunting the place for 1000 years.>

I always had the impression that the Captain couldn't change because he was dead. But when the spell was began drain Goliath's life force into him it allowed him the opportunity to finally change and let go and feel something more then his hate. Only living being have the capacity for change and growth.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 2:53:36 pm EST from 69.54.209.120

I was looking up photographs of gargoyles and chimeras on cathedrals, and I found this picture. It is low humor, but I think it is worth sharing.

http://www.msgr.ca/msgr-humour/ecumenical_humour_12.htm
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 2:34:41 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Vaevictus> "The Captain's change of heart was abrupt but I think, fairly believable. It is more out of character for him to harass and attack Goliath than to feel guilt about the massacre. But it is in character for him to sit around and let Hakon harass and attack Goliath without stopping him. Also, I think both of them had gone barmy after haunting the place for 1000 years."

I've grown to love this episode (I saw it the second time through, so out of order from some of the series). I agree with most of what's been said. My own personal take on the Captain in regards to Hakon is that he pretty much has been bullied for the last millenium, and was in a case of self-denial about the part he played. He'd let himself believe he hated Goliath, but once he and Hakon started following through on their plan to switch places with Goliath, he realized he was repeating what occured during the massacre. He was standing by and letting Hakon do evil. I accepted his turnaround because it's basically the Captain finally realizing he can't let this continue, a personal revelation and acceptance of what he had done, and a choice to finally act, as he should have done a thousand years ago.

Siren> great video. I've always loved that song. Appropriate in most ways.
Asatira
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 1:12:33 pm EST from 131.204.216.160

JURGAN - Actually, that was one of the possibilities that I had raised in my post.

About Kenneth's assassination: Regardless of what you might think about the advisability of his deciding to meet with Finella in the drying-house, I thought that Constantine did a good job of duping Finella into making the suggestion; he made it look as if he'd chosen it just because they happened to be standing next to it. And he gave a good-sounding reason for why she should meet with the King in private: concern for his dignity, that he not get turned down by her in front of the entire court.

HARVESTER - I also thought that the enhanced Archmage's one-word spells were an effective way of indicating just how powerful he'd become. Note, also, that he could activate the Phoenix Gate without having to speak the incantation or say even one word.

"Shadows of the Past" was a great opening to the Avalon World Tour, a very atmospheric story. To me, one of the creepiest moments is when Hakon starts to solidify and begins eagerly pushing Goliath around, until his fists start going through the gargoyle because now Goliath's becoming a ghost - and Hakon, realizing that this is why his blows aren't landing, laughs even louder.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 7:44:58 am EST from 4.244.211.16

Well, though gargoyles are omnivorous, I like to think they prefer meat. Those fangs of theirs look well suited to tearing flesh. So I too would have to think that Avalon provided some sort of wild game or livestock. Which would include an animal that provided milk.

Matt: Maybe they needed to start their night with something light. Fructose is usually a good source of energy to start with. Meat is better for later on.

Vaevictus: I think the captain had always regretted the massacre. He was just too much of a coward to stand up to Hakon the first time. Plus he'd been trapped in the same cave with him for a millenium. And as he said, the hatred that held him there was the hatred for himself. I felt his turn at the end was believable.

Something I've wondered: has Greg ever said how old Hakon was in 994? He had told the captain, "I haven't lived this long by taking foolish chances." He didn't look TOO old, but he might have been by the standards of the tenth century (and aso considering his occupation).
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Yes, they're alive, but I have gone to a better place. A place filled with Mrs. Pell's fishsticks! Yes! Oh, yes! They're even better when you're dead!" -The late Orson Welles.
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 6:51:31 am EST from 71.62.204.109

Well, we know there is an apple orchard and I remember Tom, Katharine and the Magus sitting down to a bowl of fruit and stuff when the Archmage first attacked, so it is possible there are no meat products on Avalon and they are vegetarian. That makes the breastmilk issue even more difficult however...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 3:42:18 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Gotta be some kinda livestock on Avalon, even if we haven't seen it. Those humans and gargoyles had to be eating something. Goats, cows, something. Not all human babies are breast fed.

That's my own personal answer.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 3:14:33 am EST from 67.87.175.245

Siren> Great video. Very nicely done.

Avalon Clan/breastmilk> Greg has said many times that "Avalon provided", though I've often wondered what that meant. What on the island would be a suitable replacement for breastmilk for 36 growing hatchlings?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 3:02:27 am EST from 24.207.163.239

King Arthur awakening too early> If he was only to awaken when needed, doen't this make it impossible for him to be truly awakened early?

Since Avalon was completely deserted when Tom, PK, and the Magus arrived, and Greg Weisman has said that gargoyles nurse, all I can say is: "Princess Katharine... Wow."
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: The Rocketeer OST
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 1:48:03 am EST from 207.207.40.250

"Also, I think both of them had gone barmy after haunting the place for 1000 years"

I agree . . . gets me wondering exactly what they have done over the years. They've gathered some attention, enough for Owen to tell Xanatos that the locals near Wyvern consider the Castle is "haunted."

As for the Archmage's timeloop, I'm happy to say that I understood it at the age of seven the first go around and that it is a HUGE reason why I love the Avalon Three-Parter. The Archmage's lines are amazing, including his infamous, "The Law that cannot be broken can surely be bent."

Man, at the age of seven, hearing that kind of stuff was amazing.
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
Pheon
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 1:19:21 am EST from 157.242.217.250

Siren: Kudos on yet another video well done ^_^
Wingless
posted @ Fri, Jan 19, 2007 12:54:45 am EST from 74.105.128.170

Siren: OWWW that was so GREAT thks!!
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 11:40:16 pm EST from 201.235.88.204

<<"One possible nit in the time loop: the enhanced Archmage talks about the modern world being "a place of science, not of sorcery", that has produced high-tech "weapons as powerful as any magic". How did he know about that?">>

It is weird, but I think in the end, it is like his entire plan: it just got spat out by time.

Final Avalon comments:
*The baby Gargs were really cute. I wonder what Nashville will look like.
*"Goliath is here now. He will protect us!" Very funny. It's like the Eggs (or just Angela) had this image of Goliath as the invincible warrior who can defeat anything.

Shadows of the Past:
This was a bizarre episode, with Goliath progressively losing his wits. The animation of the megaliths and fake gargs was very cool.

The Captain's change of heart was abrupt but I think, fairly believable. It is more out of character for him to harass and attack Goliath than to feel guilt about the massacre. But it is in character for him to sit around and let Hakon harass and attack Goliath without stopping him. Also, I think both of them had gone barmy after haunting the place for 1000 years.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 10:48:40 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Greg B: <Angela made herself a new outfit, simple as that. She's allowed to. Maybe she's not as conservative as most people think.> Guess now that she's away from Katherine's conservative influence, she's cutting loose, eh?

Concerning the immortality spell, what other specifics did they learn about it in "Avalon" aside from the fact that Demona and Macbeth are linked and share each others' pain?

Vaevictus: One of the things I liked about the Archmage was the manner in which he used magic. No rhymes, just a wave of the hand, sometimes a single word to go with it. "Revert!" Very badass.

Also, the ending to Part One was probably the best cliffhanger in any multiparter, except for maybe one other which you'll see later.

<*Kenneth really falls for it. "Yes, I will meet you alone in this out of the way building, instead of in my private chambers like normal. Why not!"> Not much can be said about Kenneth, except: good man, shitty judge of character. They should make that his epitaph.

<*Why do they just send Macbeth and Demona away on a skiff? These are very dangerous people! They need to be locked up NOW while they're unconscious.> I guess Goliath felt they'd been through enough. I also think at the time, he was hesitant to lock anyone up on his own (that might make more sense after you see a later episode).
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Explain to me again how we were going to conquer the Earth with a white Michael Jackson?"
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 10:05:49 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

"One possible nit in the time loop: the enhanced Archmage talks about the modern world being "a place of science, not of sorcery", that has produced high-tech "weapons as powerful as any magic". How did he know about that?"

Actually, the answer to that is quite simple: He knew to tell that to his past self because he was told by his future self.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- that's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 9:49:30 pm EST from 71.226.160.29

New Music Video! Featuring Demona, Goliath, and Angela!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR4r5ePiHSY
Siren
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 9:39:24 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

A few thoughts of mine about "Avalon".

1. I was genuinely surprised to see the eggs return. I'd always assumed that the gargoyles from them had long ago hatched, lived out their lives, and died (which is why, even after I discovered that Xanatos was an unscrupulous trickster, I didn't doubt his word about the eggs being gone). I certainly hadn't expected the involvement of the slower time-span on Avalon!

2. I was also surprised to see the Archmage return, but he made a fun antagonist. One of my favorite bits is the way that the original Archmage and the enhanced Archmage interact in Part Two, during the time loop, with the enhanced Archmage becoming increasingly exasperated with his past self's incompetence. (One particular example: the enhanced Archmage tells the Weird Sisters in 1020 to meet him again in 975 years. The original Archmage cries, "975 years?", whereupon his future self immediately glares at him.)

One possible nit in the time loop: the enhanced Archmage talks about the modern world being "a place of science, not of sorcery", that has produced high-tech "weapons as powerful as any magic". How did he know about that? All his time in the modern world is spent at Avalon. Of course, he might be talking about Macbeth and Demona's weapons, or made an off-stage stop (in an earlier draft, the two Archmages visit New York during the "City of Stone" period to give fresh orders to the Weird Sisters about what to do concerning Demona and Macbeth), though my favorite solution is that the Archmage doesn't actually know that: he's saying it because it's all part of the time loop.

3. The moment that Avalon was mentioned, I felt certain that King Arthur would have to turn up, and I became even more excited the moment that people began talking about "the Sleeping King" in Part Two.

4. The Archmage eating the Grimorum was one of the biggest "shock moments" for me in the series. The Grimorum wasn't used very often, but it was always there in the background - and now it was gone. Another case of "Gargoyles" daring to upset the status quo.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 7:03:37 pm EST from 4.245.16.14

I agree with Matt. Things happen for a reason, especially in "Gargoyles". Look at all these other heroes who are returning or appearing close to the same time. This is all happening for a reason.

God, I hope we get the "Pendragon" spin-off in comic book form.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 5:13:09 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Again, I have to say I'm not convinced that Arthur WAS awakened early. Just because he thinks he was, doesn't mean he actually was. Nobody really knows that Arthur is going to end up doing with him life, and perhaps Britain (and the World) will need him before he dies. I think it is entirely possible that Arthur was awakened just when he was always fated to be awakened.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 3:41:21 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

"How did Hudson know that Demona and Macbeth are immortal? I don't recall anyone explaining it to the clan in City of Stone."

Well, a few things to keep in mind.

1. Demona told Brooklyn that she was not under the sleep spell, like the rest of them, in "Temptation".

2. Macbeth had to have named Demona at some point, they knew about this.

3. Both have obviously been living through the centuries.

So, as Greg has explained also, the clan knew that Demona and Macbeth were immortal in the sense that they've been living for centuries. They did not know the specifics of the immortality until the events of "Avalon".
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 3:32:32 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

For all we know, a "first mating ritual" is something two Gargs do in private before losing their virginity. We can't assume they didn't have, just because it wasn't shown.

A question from The Price: How did Hudson know that Demona and Macbeth are immortal? I don't recall anyone explaining it to the clan in City of Stone.

I finally got to Avalon. I've got back to reading the memos. Lots of scenes that were left out.
I saw part of this as a kid, but I didn't remember most of it.

*When and how did King Arthur learn to speak Modern English? This language didn't exist in the 5th century. It would have been pretty funny if the first thing he said was "What? I can't understand you. Do you speak Breton?" Then Goliath would have to translate through Old Gaelic. Speaking of which, how do Tom and Katherine and the Magus and the Eggs speak modern English, either? They left Earth before the Norman conquest.

*I love the opening with Tom wandering down a NYC street in armor. Looking, frankly, like a lunatic (or a LARPer). I wonder how long ago he last visited Earth. Heh.
There's Brendan and Margot again.

*Bronx always gets left behind. Of course he has no wings, and now that the castle is ~100 stories up in the air, he's stuck.

*Tom really doesn't give Goliath and Elisa any time to think, or information. He's kind of in a panic. They don't have time to figure out what he's talking about, or to find the rest of the clan or anything. "To where, the other side of the lake?" Hehe.

*Do you suppose that the Dreamtime and Avalon exist in the same world/dimension?

*Why do they just send Macbeth and Demona away on a skiff? These are very dangerous people! They need to be locked up NOW while they're unconscious.

*Ophelia has a bandage on her leg even before the first attack. Why?

*Kenneth really falls for it. "Yes, I will meet you alone in this out of the way building, instead of in my private chambers like normal. Why not!"

*The Archmage stuff is pretty cool. He is much more impressive with the Eye than he as a dirty old man throwing tantrums. Overall, Avalon took a kind of silly, throw-away character and made him much more.

*He is so arrogant toward his former self. Even though that was him only a few (personal, subjective) hours ago.

*The Gate *pulses* when the Archmage laughs. It's kinda creepy.

*The Archmage's double loop is really complicated. He goes through it twice before staying on Avalon. It took me a while to figure it out.

*Goliath is rather dismayed that Tom named his children, and Angela is just like a human. "How else can we tell each other apart?" I guess she didn't notice that they look different. ;)

*There are a few moments where the Gargs get airborn from the ground, and it looks fishy to me.

*The jalapena line feels really, really out of place.

*The Weird Sisters say that the Eye and Gate were "forged" on Avalon. An interesting way to phrase it, since the Eye came from Odin's head, and the Gate sort of just is.

*The medieval princess with a laser rifle. Wonderful.

*Tom somehow assumes Elisa and Goliath understand about Avalon and the skiffs. He waits until the last possible moment to drop the bad news in their lap. Oops.

I liked how Goliath almost got Demona and Macbeth to snap out of it. They're villains (well, a villain and an antihero, I guess) but even Demona wouldn't do this by free will. Then the Archmage takes them back so easily. And still she hates Elisa so much that it gets through the spell. She hates Elisa more than she cares about her kids? Well, if she wants to kill Goliath even on a good night, I can believe that.

Katherine and Mary and the Magus don't seem so bad in this episode. They seem to have tried their best to make up for what they did. I feel sad for Tom having to leave without his mother.

The bit with the Magus and the Avalon magic confuses me. At face value, his explanation makes sense. But from Ask Greg I'd got the impression that mortals cannot wield Fae magic, except using an artifact like the Gate. Is the guy a Halfling? That would explain the pointed ears, and having white hair at age 18. That, or the Archmage experimented on him.

The whole King Arthur bit is rather frustrating, honestly. The Archmage was super scary and Elisa was desperate, but she did make a serious mistake. Once Goliath finally got the Eye back (just as he took it from Fox), the Archmage was finished, and everybody together could have knocked Macbeth and Demona out. Once the Magus chained up the Sisters, they could force them to break the spell. I don't think they really actually *needed* to wake up Arthur, although they thought they did. Kinda sad.
Although it is true that if they had failed, the Archmage would have killed him. And then taken over the world, so maybe Britain was in danger after all.
Still, I think that 2198 was the intended occasion. Makes me wonder how he would deal with it in Pendragon.

All of City of Stone seems changed in my mind after seeing this. It's not so much that the Weird Sisters turn out to be wicked, but all that saga of Macbeth and Demona, their alliance and hard work, saving each others' lives, the tragedy and betrayal and all of it... none of it was them. They were just puppets, cheated. It makes the whole story feel different. And think how *they* would feel if they found out. They won't remember any of the events when the Weird Sisters were controlling them directly, after City of Stone. Maybe its a mercy that they won't remember hearing that they've been puppets for a thousand years.
It's very sad (for them).

But the biggest thing for me was seeing more Gargoyles, especially ones that aren't destined to die at the end of the episode. Gargoyles are really cool looking creatures, and they all look so different, that each new character model is fun to look at. A whole clan is a visual treat. I wish there had been more time and space to show the different members of the Avalon Clan, but I know lots of scenes were cut already. Besides that, it was really great (the first time I saw this, ten years ago) to see that the species isn't extinct. I can hardly wait to see the World Tour clans.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 3:22:43 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

You know, I'm a little confused now also... hmm.

Guess we'll have to wait and see in the comic, or if Greg decides to clarify.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 3:18:24 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

I'm still confused. So when did Broadway and Angela decide to become mates, a monogamous long-term couple? Was it when the sex act occurred or was it before that? Had they already made that decision by the time of "The Journey"? Goliath and Demona's bonding in "Vows" seems obvious, but Broadway and Angela are a bit more confusing given this new information. I was expecting their courtship to continue for another few months or so and then culminate in a bonding ritual. *Shrugs*
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 3:10:07 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Sorry, for the double post, I looked at my first sentence and, well, looks strange.

All we know is, it happens around the time of "The Journey", at least, as of Gathering 2006.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 2:34:17 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

MATT> Yes, they are mates now. By the end of 1996, they are definitely mates.

JURGAN> They said "ritual" not "ceremony".

What we saw in "Vows" was, in a way, Goliath and Demona's ritual.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 2:32:07 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Matt: Here we go. There was more in this response, but I cut out the irrelevant parts:

"Question received on Thu, November 13, 2003 05:33:02 PM
Siren writes...

1.)Do gargoyles have a ceremony similar in anyway to a wedding ceremony as humans do?

Greg responds...

1. They have a 'first mating ritual'.
Response recorded on September 20, 2005"

So, no, they still need to have an official ceremony.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- that's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 2:27:32 pm EST from 71.226.160.29

Sorry for the double post... I had some questions, if anyone knows, please feel free to answer or at least discuss them:

1. Okay, if Broadway and Angela first have sex with each other shortly after Issue #2, does that mean they are officially mates? When/how do gargoyles officially become mates? Does having sex make those two gargoyles mates or do gargoyles potentially have sex with other gargoyles before choosing one mate? In others words, are Broadway and Angela actually mates now officially, or are they just having sex because they want to, but havn't officially decided to declare the other their mate?

2. On a way different topic, does anyone know if Greg W ever gave any dates for when the Olypians first began migrating to New Olympus or for when New Olympus offically closed their doors to the outside world?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 2:07:29 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Greg B> I'm just talking, I don't care much about the change... hell, given what you just said, maybe Broadway tore through her old outfit shortly after that scene in "The Journey" *imagines claw marks wipe that leads from scene to scene* lol...

Anyway, I wonder where the "did it". I mean, it's not like they had their own bedrooms, but I'm sure they wanted some privacy. Well, anyway, good for them.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 1:41:04 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Sure she's allowed to. I just don't like change. :)
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 1:25:09 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Angela made herself a new outfit, simple as that. She's allowed to. Maybe she's not as conservative as most people think.

Bit of trivia, revealed at this year's Blue Mug a Guest, by Greg Weisman... Angela and Broadway shortly lose their virginity to each other after Brooklyn sees them kissing in "The Journey"... maybe not that very evening, but definitely in the short term. So, no, despite how most fanfiction writes her... she and Broadway hardly waited.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 12:50:42 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Matt: hahaha
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 12:29:32 pm EST from 201.235.88.204

Yey!! i can see it now too Thks!!
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 12:28:16 pm EST from 201.235.88.204

Maybe after seeing Demona and Delilah, Angela decided it was time to leave her conservative Avalon roots behind so she took some scissors, cut off the middle of her outfit, made a nice trendy new collar, and loosened a few strings to show a bit more cleavage... maybe she did it for Broadway, lol.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 12:23:14 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

nicely done Ntripy, and thank you!
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 11:27:02 am EST from 74.129.251.212

how 'bout this one?

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Image:GargoylesComic4.JPG
Ntripy
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 11:17:43 am EST from 72.232.196.138

In the comic Angela's belly is also showing. Her outfit is a separate top and loincloth, not a dress. I liked the dress better, personally. If nothing else, it doesn't make sense why her clothes would magically change.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 11:14:48 am EST from 209.162.56.94

Yea... still no dice
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 10:52:13 am EST from 74.129.251.212

Warcrafter & Justin > the link seems fine to me, make sure you're not including the ")" when you copy and paste.
Ntripy
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 10:36:02 am EST from 72.232.196.138

dph: Okay, I can see why you'd like reading them, but Greg never says anything of note in response (and that's not a complaint; there's just really not that much to say when everyone's talking about the same thing). You can read them all right now, so I don't see what's exciting about knowing that Greg's reading them.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- that's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 10:03:03 am EST from 71.226.160.29

Any idea when that link to the Issue # 4 cover will be ready in the Wiki?
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 10:01:49 am EST from 74.129.251.212

Jurgan - <I asked this last time someone (I think it was you) was counting down to Gathering journals, and I never got an answer, though I did get a lot of people agreeing that they weren't that interesting.> To somebody who's never been to the gathering, they're not boring. I read every gathering journal in Ask Greg before I left to go to my 1st gathering so I have an idea of what happens/expectations/things to be aware of that aren't stated upfront. For me, it was nice to know what actually happened (not necessarily scheduled to happen) while I was doing something else. They're not (that) boring to me.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 8:58:26 am EST from 71.30.133.165

Harvester> All we know about #3's release date is it's still (currently) sometime next month.

Nice sig. That looks familiar, but I can't place it...
KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 8:18:12 am EST from 69.95.196.11

Shara: <Ooooo I love the cover, but will the artwork inside the book be just as good?> Considering how the artwork in #2 looked (and the fact that it took Hedgecock so long to do it), I think it's going to be wishful thinking to hope that Hedgecock has cured Demona of her afro. Although I have to admit, Angela looked pretty good in Issue #2.

Greg B: Maybe Puck's been teaching Alex how to alter someone's wardorbe? ( ;

Does anyone know if there's a release date for #3 yet?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Explain to me again how we were going to conquer the Earth with a white Michael Jackson?"
posted @ Thu, Jan 18, 2007 7:04:29 am EST from 71.62.204.109

Okay, so we are gonna have the whole Manhattan Clan, Xanatos, Thailog, Demona, and Delilah in Issue 3 & 4?!?! Geez, these are gonna be some packed issues...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 10:39:59 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

MATT> Demona returns in issue 3, Greg mentioned that at the Gathering and in an interview.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 10:12:00 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

"Actually, I have a better number that I've been counting down to: posts until the 1st gathering 2006 journal."

Why do you care? I asked this last time someone (I think it was you) was counting down to Gathering journals, and I never got an answer, though I did get a lot of people agreeing that they weren't that interesting. You can read them all now, and Greg'll probably just quote "The Price" at them, so what's so exciting?

Now, what I am happy about is that Greg just got by Demona/Macbeth question. Hooray! He said I was "on the right track," so, if you like, click on my name to read my essay, now with the Greg Weisman seal of approval.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- that's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 9:19:40 pm EST from 71.226.160.29

Oh, so it's Angela and Delilah on the cover, huh? I have honestly never noticed Delilah's single earing before, and earings aside, that mask could have easily been of Demona. Oh well. For the record though, I am well aware of the pysiological differences between Angela and Demona, the earing just threw me off.

So, I guess Demona isn't going to be in the comic until Issue 5 at least. I seem to remember Greg W saying she was going to be cooling off for a bit following her defeat on Hunter's Moon. Wonder how she'll reappear.

I hope we get to see some Thailog/Xanatos. Those two would be fun to put up against each other, and they havn't been since "Double Jeopardy"...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 9:00:22 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I want to see the cover for issue #4 on gargwiki but i keep getting a blank screen :(
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Humans are such easy prey for a gargoyle!........and I need more friends on XBOX Live for 360. Anyone?
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 8:06:02 pm EST from 69.231.205.217

Forgot one thing.

Matt> That's Delilah and Angela on the issue 4 cover. Delilah has the earing that you can see in "The Reckoning" and Angela has only two horns on her brow, while Demona has four.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 7:09:37 pm EST from 64.12.116.5

Angela's outfit> It's the same on both issue 1 and issue 3s covers. Her top is two shouldered, always has been... and if you look at issue 1's cover, she has the collar there as well.

Greg Guler changed her outfit for the comic, simple as that.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 7:07:35 pm EST from 64.12.116.5

Phoenician <wow. 245 questions left and Greg's already on the comic #1 reviews!> Actually, I have a better number that I've been counting down to: posts until the 1st gathering 2006 journal. At the current rate, he'll get to that point before the end of this month. And yes, what I wrote was true, especially the pre-Journal bit.

It's nice to know that Greg Weisman thinks issues #3 and #4 are coming out respectively in February and April even though you-know-where hasn't mentioned dates for them yet.

Given shipping costs, I'm tempted to order issues #3 & 4 at the same time, but only if I'm convinced #4 won't be more than 2 months after #3. If I did that, would that hurt overall sales goals?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 6:59:04 pm EST from 71.30.133.165

Speaking of the cover for Issue 4 (which you can see here: http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Clan_Building_Chapter_Four: ) Okay, I get the masks thing. Kinda cool. Here's my question. We see masks of the trio, Hudson, Goliath, Thailog, Elisa, Demona, and who is the last one, the silvery one in the top middle. Is it supposed to be Delilah or Angela? Since at least some part of this issue deals with the clones and the Labyrinth, I suspect Delilah, but it seems odd to include the trio and Hudson, but leave out Angela... What's up?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 6:10:27 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

*L* this is funny its a fans version of a review for gargoyles. Don't know if anyone has seen this but I found it funny.

http://powet.tv/2006/06/23/gargoyles-comic-book-1-review/#comment-4351
Shara
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 6:01:06 pm EST from 4.246.108.73

Ooooo I love the cover, but will the artwork inside the book be just as good? or be kind of slapped together like the last issues?
Shara
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 5:22:45 pm EST from 4.246.108.73

wow. 245 questions left and Greg's already on the comic #1 reviews!

cover #3 looks amazing. Gonna check out the gargwiki for #4!!
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
Pheon
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 5:10:58 pm EST from 157.242.218.53

I like the front cover for issue 3 but I do agree with you Matt about Angela's outfit but it won't bother me.

Just been on the Gargwiki site and seen the front cover for issue 4 even though it's unfinished it look alright took me a few minutes to realise they were masks.
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 4:32:24 pm EST from 195.93.21.4

More thoughts on Issue #3 cover> Okay, Hudson is still bothering me. Why is he off in the distance and all in shadows? I mean, if he had died and everyone knew he was making a reoccurence in the book, it is one thing to have a suspenseful shot like that, but as far as I know he is stillas much a member of the Clan as anyone else. Why does he look suspicious or antagonistic? That said, I do like the actual art of him in front of the moon, I just don't understand the reasoning.

Angela has some interesting differences as well. She is missing a finger on each of her wings, but what is really strange is her outfit. As opposed to Issue #1 cover, she is back in her "over both shoulders" get up, but now she has this weird collar turn up. It doesn't bother me, it just is... different.

The Trio, Goliath, Bronx and elisa are awesome, nothing to say there.

One more comment, however, It is interesting to see them all staring "at camera", I don't think we've ever really seen that before.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 4:01:18 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

No, unfortunately, species are not declared endangered automatically. No matter how close a species is to extinction, it is only protected in a given country if the legislature (or dictator, or whatever) gives it protection, and then enforces it. If the government of a given country doesn't care, or has a political reason (oil drilling, etc.) to harm the species, too bad.

I can see Gargoyles eventually getting endangered species protection, but I have as hard a time imagining them gaining civil rights in the US as I have to imagine the US allowing the UN to dictate "Acts" to it. Unfortunately, in this country, Congress has repeatedly rejected several UN resolutions on *human* rights, even the Declaration of Child Civil Rights. And now, our government can't even be bothered to obey the resolutions we have signed.

I don't know how the situation is in other countries.

But whether as an Act or a Resolution, I think the world would have to change a great deal before anything like GMPA would be passed.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 1:57:11 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

MATT> Yep.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 12:18:18 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

GargWiki/Canon> Okay, just so I'm clear here. If someone wrote "Jason Canmore was a Hunter" that would be in normal type. If someone wrote "Artus will hatch in 2018" that would be in bold type. And if someone wrote "Sevarius created Little Anton" that would be in Apocrypha. Is that right?

Goliath's death> I dunno. Something about Goliath saccrifing himself by dying at the hands of Castaway or the Quarrymen bugs me. If Goliath's death is going to have weight (dramatic weight and weight enough to motivate the UN to pass resolutions) than I figure it is going to have to be Goliath doing something proactive. Someone threatening him, his clan or his protectorate and him going out there and stopping those bad guys is great, but sometimes I feel that is a typical knee-jerk gargoyle reaction. It is sorta like when Demona was gonna break the vial and kill humanity. Goliath wasn't at risk, he stopped her because he was a true hero. "That's who he is." I know I'm rambling a bit here without a clear idea of what I'm trying to say, so I'll say this: I just hope goliath's death isn't just about him facing down an enemy, I hope his death is being truely heroic, saving someone or something because it was the right thing to do. Everyone would do what they could to save their loved ones, family or friends or whatever or their home. I just hope Goliath does more than that. Anyway, are we even sure he is sacrificing his LIFE? All I remember is that the document says that he made a sacrifice that helped lead to the GMPA. *shrugs*
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 11:00:12 am EST from 24.207.163.239

When its number are under the 2000 members, i think.
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 10:39:44 am EST from 200.114.213.102

GMPA - I figured, before the UN would pass it, the issue would be dealt with in a few countries. Just getting the U.S. congress and President to act on it, I would like to compare it to civil rights. I see gargoyles being recognized as an 'endangered species' before they got civil rights. BTW, what does it take for a species to be considered an "endangered species"?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 9:47:52 am EST from 71.30.133.165

BISHANSKY - Thanks.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 7:41:41 am EST from 4.244.214.0

Hello, all.

Matt> :) I'm glad an expert'll be taking care of the wiki pages. I just don't like the dead links, so I put some basic information there until someone else modifies it, then I make sure they didn't forget a period or something. :)

Funny little... story thing. I'm watching Bambi, and when I clicked random page on the wiki, the first page it took me to was "Bambi." It made me laugh.
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 4:53:36 am EST from 68.55.107.142

His last reply:

Wow, you know what I just realized? I don't care that much. If you care so much than I'll change the date, whatever.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Jan 17, 2007 12:59:09 am EST from 71.30.133.165

Er, Only UNTIL January 22nd. I need better eyes for proof reeding.
Wingless
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 11:56:21 pm EST from 74.105.128.170

*Whispers* Don't tell anyone, but Slave Labor Graphics is having a sale to celebrate their new website. %25 off all purchases until January 22nd. They sent me an email stating that, so I thought I'd let you folks know. All you have to do is enter the word "grandopening" in th coupon code section when you order. So, this is your excuse to order more than one copy guys. I ordered 3! (Mind you, shipping costs more than the comics-but hey, it's worth it). BTW, they take PayPal now. Again, this is only January 22nd, so jump on it while you can.
_____
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 11:51:47 pm EST from 74.105.128.170

DEMONA IS uhahahahaha. Ejem. An unatural death i mean...
Demon@ - [Stop lying to yourself, your land is not paradise]
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 11:16:13 pm EST from 200.125.112.59

Demon@> Eventually everyone dies. Goliath isn't immortal.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 11:05:20 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

:( Goliath is going to die?
Demon@ - [Stop lying to yourself, your land is not paradise]
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 11:04:15 pm EST from 200.125.112.59

Something I always found amusing was that they aired "The Price" right after "Outfoxed" when the series originally aired. Which meant that "The Cage" was the episode they showed right before the "Avalon" 3-Parter. I just remember being confused by that because there is a shot in the third act of "The Cage" where Owen prominently waves his left hand, which is still flesh. Until I saw "Kingdom" a few months later, I thought he might have had an operation.

Greg B and Todd: Maybe Goliath jumped into a volcano so innocent villagers could keep their home. Islanders need islands. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Explain to me again how we were going to conquer the Earth with a white Michael Jackson?"
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 8:39:27 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

TODD> Just, FYI, that theory was both mine and CrzyDemona's.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 7:59:25 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

As you pointed out, international law does exist. I'm not clear on how it works, though. I suspect that "international" laws are simply laws that a lot of national legislatures decided to all pass in more or less the same words. I doubt any of them are considered law in every nation.

Greg has said that Guatemala's cooperation with the GMPA is "an issue" since the Chac Ix Chel Clan claims part of the rainforest, so maybe it is only a sort of international law as we have now, passed by some nations but not others.

World politics would have to change an awful lot before countries would allow the UN to actually pass binding Acts like that.
Then again, Greg hasn't necessarily spent hours and hours researching international law yet. Maybe he'll change the name to Gargoyle Minority Protection Resolution or somesuch, later on.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 7:21:36 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

I personally do not envy Greg Weisman the task of (eventually, way down the road) writing a "Gargoyles" story involving September 11. I know that I'd be terrified of that job - having to handle the event without appearing to trivialize it.

Re "The Price": One of my favorite aspects of the episode is how it makes its two big deceptions (involving Hudson and Macbeth) seem all the more plausible by using the things that the audience (assuming that it's seen the earlier episodes) knows at this point:

1. We know from the Magus's curse back in "Awakening Part Two" that it's indeed possible to magically trap a gargoyle in stone sleep, so it's easy to dupe us into thinking that that's just what Macbeth did to Hudson. (In fact, the first time that I saw the episode, I initially thought that Hudson's being trapped in the cage at the end of Act One was a symbol for the spell being placed on him.)

2. When Macbeth seemingly comes back from the dead, I naturally thought (again, the first time that I saw the episode) that it was because of the Weird Sisters' spell upon him, which meant that only Demona could kill him and not Goliath. But at the same time, his going after the gargoyles for "trophies" didn't seem quite in character for him; it felt more like the Pack's sort of motivation. So it made better sense to me when it turned out to be a lookalike Macbeth robot.

And Owen's hand turning to stone at the end came as a real surprise to me. I was, in fact, so shocked by it that I never even noticed the way that both Xanatos and Owen were responding to it. (I missed all the hints about Owen being really Puck until "The Gathering Part One", when Owen was nervously clearing out of the Eyrie Building before Oberon returned; that was when I first began to suspect the truth about him.)

Greg Bishansky and I have corresponded in the past about what form Goliath's sacrifice might take. Bishansky suggested that it was a battle with Castaway; that seems possible to me, though I think that it would have to be one where Castaway's fanatical hatred for Goliath and his clan had gotten so out of hand that it was endangering human bystanders (a la "Angels in the Night") and Goliath gave up his life to rescue them. A fight between Goliath and Castaway would have to seem like something more than just a private quarrel between two factions (which is how most humans would see the gargoyles vs. Quarrymen situation, I believe) to ensure enough of a change in public perception of gargoyles to ensure the sort of legislation that we're talking about here.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 7:18:44 pm EST from 4.245.19.165

GMPA>> I've always had a different argument for the GMPA coming into force in decades long after the current timeline - based on my understanding of how Greg has described it as, essentially, a law handed down by the UN, that it is simply impossible within the immediate future based on our present political realities. It could only happen in that manner in the far future.

The UN does not have the power to enact any laws that nations are bound to obey. That's why all the UN passes are resolutions, not Acts (not semantic terms). The point of the UN isn't to be an international Congress, it is to be a forum which facilitates nations' compliance with international laws and accords, as well as call attention to human (or, perhaps, gargoyle) rights violations. The UN Charter says nothing about replacing the legislative and executive authorities of sovereign nations.

Then, of course, the UN has zero executive authority, and by that I mean that the UN cannot enforce the resolutions it passes on its own: it has to have the consent of the member nations. So even if it did start calling its resolutions Acts, the UN doesn't have a police force or military to make non-compliant nations obey.

What you would have to see happen for the UN to start passing Acts and have them enforced is for nations to essentially surrender their sovereignty to the organization, and that strikes me as a distant future concept.

I would not be surprised if the UN passed a *resolution* in the near future which recognized gargoyles as a species worth giving special protection -- or even revised their Charter to reflect the rights of gargoyles -- but that resolution would not bind any nations to put in place those special protections beyond looking bad in world opinion polls.

In order for the UN's resolution to have any force of law, the legislative bodies of member nations would have to create and pass laws where their laws' language mirrored either closely or word-for-word the language of the UN resolution; and this can take time, particularly if you're dealing with, oh, the U.S. Congress, whose constituency is somewhat cool to the idea of the UN guiding the country's legislative agenda.

So if the GMPA *does*, in fact, come from the UN and have the force of law in the nations of the world, I'd very much like to know about what happened in history to give the UN that kind of legislative and executive authority.
Alex Garg - [fiatnox at gmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 6:37:41 pm EST from 68.48.114.157

He also wanted to test the Cauldron on a guinea pig, and explained why he chose Hudson.

Now, I've got my own thoughts on some deeper reasons why Xanatos chose Hudson. And, in a way, I think Xanatos was projecting issues he had with his father on to Hudson. Hudson got under Xanatos's skin, and I'm sure debates/arguements like the ones Xanatos had with Hudson were not too far off the mark from arguements and disagreements he had with his own father.

I think this was brought up at the writing villains panel at the 2006 Gathering.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 5:47:09 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Oops sorry, I forgot some comments.

If I hadn't known already that Owen is Puck, I would be rather dismayed at how Xanatos treats him here, and amazed how calm he is when his hand turns to stone. He still seems bothered and dismayed, but in a kind of "Oh drat, I stained my nice shirt." way, not the way I'd react if I lost a hand!

I wonder why Xanatos needed to kidnap Hudson. Once the Macbeth-bot had forced the to sleep on that building, Xanatos could just fly over there and pick up some scraps from the snow in the evening. I guess he wanted to be extra-special sure he got what he needed. Contingencies.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 5:41:12 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

It is nice to see the cover at least is done. Just hope there's no delay this time around.

Saw The Price. It was interesting. I wondered what Macbeth was doing. I figured he must be so bored with his immortal life that he's attacking people just for kicks. And Trophies! of course. Then when turned out to be working for Xanatos and, started repeating lines I got confused. It didn't occur to me that he was a robot. Which I should have thought of, when Xanatos is involved.

I liked the exchanges between Hudson and Xanatos. I have to wonder though, how thick and durable a chunk of skin would be, anyway. If the skin was that thick, wouldnt' the Gargoyles get smaller every evening? Or have to eat two cows anyway, just to gain the mass that would be lost when they woke up.

Anyway, it bothered me that there was no mention in the episode of how Xanatos got the Cauldron of Life, or even acknowledgement that it was a question to consider. This is the legendary Cauldron of Life, which you would expect was very difficult to find.

Turning Broadway to stone in midair was pretty suspenseful. I couldn't believe he would get killed off but I really wondered how he was going to survive.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 5:36:24 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Greg> I guess to make things clearer, there are two levels of canon, so to speak, as far as the wiki is concerned.

Set In Stone Canon: Awakening to Hunter's Moon, and the comic.

Like you said, Canon In Training: Ask Greg and other revelations. That's why all that is in bold to stand out, so it can be easily changed... either unbolded when the stories are told, or deleted and changed entirely.

BTW, thanks for all the input and contributions you have made for the wiki so far, it's all much appreciated.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 5:16:00 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Make your own decisions about the gargwiki, but in my mind the ONLY canon is the first 65 episodes of the series and the first two issues of the SLG comic. EVERYTHING else, including all ASK GREG revelations, Gathering asides, pithy comments, etc. are merely canon-in-training. IMHO.
Greg Weisman
"How could I not believe in animism? Every time I get on my bathroom scale, proof is there before my eyes of the sentience (and perversity) of all things."
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 5:11:38 pm EST from 64.14.248.62

MATT> Thanks for the update, but Apocrypha is for "Gargoyles" material that is, well, 0% canon. If Greg says it, the wiki considers it canon until Greg changes it.

Canon includes: All the episodes from "Awakening Part One" to "Hunter's Moon Part Three", and every issue of the SLG comic. Ask Greg revelations and Greg's comments here and there fall under Canon also.

Apocrypha is for "The Goliath Chronicles", the Sega Genesis Video Game, the Disney Adventures and Marvel comics, and all that other stuff he wasn't involved in.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 5:07:42 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Well I certainly hope the act wouldn't be past that early-Goliath wouldn't have much longer to live!!

Yay, we finally get to see the issue #3 cover! I like that it features the whole clan. I wish there was a date. It's interesting how all the clan members are looking at the viewer with disdain-as if saying "buy this book or you'll be sorry" ;)
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
Drop by my Deviantart page
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 5:03:05 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

Thanks, Greg. I've already updated the GargWiki with that little bit of info.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 3:35:33 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

For the record: I'm not saying this author is lying. He may simply be mistaken, misunderstood me... or (and this is very possible) I may have misunderstood his question and given the answer 2008, thinking I was responding to something else. But I'm quite sure that I have never fixed a date for the GMPA. I don't see 9/11 as being an explicit motivator for the GMPA at all. (Though all actions have repercussions, of course.) And I'm fairly certain that 2008 is way too early for the GMPA to have passed.
Greg Weisman
"How could I not believe in animism? Every time I get on my bathroom scale, proof is there before my eyes of the sentience (and perversity) of all things."
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 3:14:37 pm EST from 64.14.248.62

And the plot thickens about this author:

Response to my email:

Yes, Greg Weisman told me in person at the last Gathering that the act is past in 2008. Now he has been known to change the dates of events before, so it's not like the date is fixed, if Greg changes it, than I change it. Remember that the last Gargoyles episode took place in '96. 12 years can be a long time to convince people that they're not beasts.
I'm not saying that the events of 9-11 didn't phase some people, but it went a long way towards the act, which may not have been a popular act at first.

Funny thing is I don't believe this claim at all. Attending the last gathering myself, I find it hard to believe that any revelation that big wouldn't be overheard and spread like wild fire.

At this point, there are 2 distinct possibilities: either 1)this fanfic author is lying or 2)we got a revelation off the books.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 2:45:01 pm EST from 71.30.133.165

UN Protection Act> For one thing, I have to wonder why the author went with name of "Minority-Sentient species Protection act of 2007" and said it was Greg W's idea. In fact, Greg has only refered to it as the Gargoyle Minority Protection Act. In any event, others are (mostly) right. The best evidence we have only narrows it's creation down to the period between 1996 and 2188 (not 2198, we know the Gargoyle Nation was extablished by 2188). We also know that it was passed party due to Goliath's sacrifice, though we know little beyond that. Anyway, there is a lot of fanfic out there, I'm no more worried about this one being seen as canon as any of the others.

For the record though, I'm actually looking forward to Greg's 9-11-01 episode. I firmly believe he will do a good story, one that is poignant and meaningful. I look forward to seeing the Clan's reaction, and the world's reaction to the gargoyles on that day. I'd say that though the GMPA may not be passed for years after that event, the gargoyles actions that day may move some minds.

Samuel> Yes, I was going to expand the entries on all the clans, including the Scone Clan. I've noticed you've been doing some work in that area, and that is fine, but I feel I can add more. I feel somewhat of an expert in the area of knowledge of the different clans, and I also have access to information regarding the clans that others do not, namely the Gargoyles: 2198 document. Anyway, it is a wiki site, feel free to do what you wish there, but I plan to personally work on all the different clans, as I have done with several already.

Oh, and Samuel, thanks for the heads up on the Issue 3 cover. I like it a lot, my one complaint is that Hudson is in the shadows in the background, it sorta looks like he is going to be the villain in this Issue or something. *Shrugs*
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 2:18:28 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Greg W. has not stated the date of the resolution at all. He has said that it was partly in response to Goliath sacrificing his life in some way. Since Greg W. has declared he does NOT plan on killing any major characters on 9-11-2001, we can assume that Goliath won't died that year.
And somebody should inform the fanfic writer. Just to make things clear, because we don't want false information spread around and called canon.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 11:52:55 am EST from 209.162.56.94

Yeah...like the cases with Irak prisioners....
Demon@ - [Stop lying to yourself, your land is not paradise]
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 10:35:59 am EST from 200.125.112.59

The U.N. passes resolutions all the time that many nations promptly ignore. They currently lack sufficient power to enforce their own declarations on *human* rights, let alone gargoyle ones.

157 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"Don't rush me, sonny. You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles." - Max, "The Princess Bride"
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 9:06:54 am EST from 68.76.121.18

#3> Wow. That is a beautiful cover. I hope they're going with that one. :)
KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 8:15:21 am EST from 69.95.30.125

Damn, that looks good. Having Lostimolo color an issue would be interesting. I wasn't crazy with the coloring in Issue #2. Had I not seen the episode on TV, I'd have had no idea what was going on in the clock tower. Do we know who's coloring #3 yet (assuming it's not Terrell)?

Vaevictus: This is dipping into last week, but I had forgotten to respond then to your thoughts on "Double Jeopardy." This one's up there on my favorite episodes. It's a lot of fun listening to Keith David have a conversation with himself, because he plays both sides of the coin extraordinarily well (of course, I can listen to him say anything. I stopped on the History Channel yesterday because he was narrating a documentary on the early days of the Crusades).

Perhaps the best thing about that episode was seeing Xanatos (Mr. Confidence, Mr. Cool as Ice and In Control) get played. His conversation with Owen at the end was just great.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Mad Hatter: "Can I have last statement stricken from the record, please?" The Joker: "Record? Is someone supposed to be writing this down?"
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 6:55:53 am EST from 71.62.204.109

That's awesome. Her colours are wonderful.

Does anyone know who's pencilling the interior art for this one?
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 5:50:12 am EST from 68.55.107.142

Thanks for the link, the cover looks awesome. Steph says she will be coloring an issue as well, can't wait to see that.
Ntripy
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 2:17:05 am EST from 72.232.196.138

Sorry for posting again. Stephanie Lostimolo (I hope I spelled that right) has posted the third cover on her deviantart page.

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/46760046/
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 1:24:14 am EST from 68.55.107.142

Hello, all.

I don't know whether or not anyone mentioned this previously, or not, but the Disney/Jetix webpage has Gargoyles episodes for viewing. So, if you don't have the DVDs, you could take a peek, and then buy the DVDs. :)

That's mostly it. Hope everyone's doing well.

Oh, does anyone know anything about the Scone Clan? It's on the wiki, but there's no information, and I was curious about it.
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Tue, Jan 16, 2007 12:02:28 am EST from 68.55.107.142

As far as I know, Greg Weisman never indicated when the Gargoyle Minority Protection Act was passed (beyond the fact that it was obviously somewhere between 1996 and 2198).

If there's reason to be concerned, it would be because the fanfic writer's statement that the date comes from Greg Weisman might mislead many of those who'll read it.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Jan 15, 2007 10:52:52 pm EST from 4.245.19.165

I agree with Greg. If you dont like it dont read it and let it be.
Demon@
posted @ Mon, Jan 15, 2007 10:41:06 pm EST from 200.125.112.59

DPH> It's just someone's fanfic. No reason to trash the guy in here.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Mon, Jan 15, 2007 9:40:34 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Wingless: When I rewatched "The Cage," I tried to give him plenty of excuses. He's lost his humanity, anger is clouding his judgment...

I gave it honest effort, I truly did, but I still couldn't pardon him.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Occam's Razor. The simplest explantion is usually: somebody screwed up." -House, MD
posted @ Mon, Jan 15, 2007 9:28:17 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Ok, guys, I have a good laugh for you all.

I noticed in a guy's fanfiction for a 2198 series that he had the following paragraph:

The Minority-Sentient species Protection act of 2007 passed by the UN prevented the hunting of gargoyles in countries that were aware of their existence within their borders. This was due primarily to the Labyrinth and Manhattan Clan's aid six years prior on 9-11-01. The Evening after the attack the gargoyles in both of these clans aided firefighters and police officers. Though neither gargoyle clan was actually able to rescue anyone, their efforts were noted.

I replied to it with this comment:

I find one big fault with your timeline. "The Minority-Sentient species Protection act of 2007 passed by the UN prevented the hunting of gargoyles in countries that were aware of their existence within their borders." Assuming the us government got behind it and made it a priority, it would probably take at least 2 decades to get other world governments to act on it.

Frankly, I don't see any US ambassador taking up the cause of gargoyle sentience anytime soon, 9-11 or not.

This is the reply that I recieved:

Greg Weisman's timeline is the one that passed the Minority Sentient
Species act, not mine. Take it up with him

Pardon my ignorance, guys, but has Greg Weisman put a date on the Gargoyles Minority Sentient Species Act?

2nd, does anybody even consider it feasible for the act to be passed by 2007?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Jan 15, 2007 8:45:56 pm EST from 71.30.131.115

Much of the show focuses on the lone how "anger clouds your judgement" Derek is a perfect example of that. He lets his temper get in the way of logic.
Wingless
posted @ Mon, Jan 15, 2007 8:42:56 pm EST from 74.105.128.170

Sorry for the double post, but forgot to add.

Siren: I remember back when this subject was first broached (at least in the time I've been posting here), I went back and watched "The Cage" more objectively. There's a difference between gullibility and just being too dense to read between the lines. I think even a trusting individual would have been able to sense something amiss in what Xanatos was saying.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Occam's Razor. The simplest explantion is usually: somebody screwed up." -House, MD
posted @ Mon, Jan 15, 2007 8:41:50 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Vaevictus: Yeah, I wasn't referring to you. There are other people that aren't crazy about it.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Occam's Razor. The simplest explantion is usually: somebody screwed up." -House, MD
posted @ Mon, Jan 15, 2007 8:27:12 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

VAEVICTIS - Actually, the evidence in "Protection" indicates that Matt and Chavez *did* know about Elisa's undercover scheme, and were part of it. (One line that I like in their staged conversation in Act One is when Chavez comments about how Elisa's been acting strange lately - that's one good way of duping the audience!)

Goliath's horrified response to Dracon daring to call his extortion schemes "protection" is one of the highlights of this episode for me. Another is the bit where Dracon's saying to Goliath about Elisa, "So she's your woman, eh?" and starts patting him familiarly on the shoulder, until Goliath growls - whereupon he quickly withdraws his hand.

One of the highlights of "The Cage" for me is Xanatos saying at the end that Sevarius is too important to him to allow Derek to kill him: "He's the scientist; you're just the experiment. Oh, hello, Goliath, almost didn't see you there." Another is the family reunion at the end with Goliath watching in secret. For me, it was a very moving moment.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Jan 15, 2007 7:46:27 pm EST from 4.244.18.100

I wouldn't say Derek is dumb. I doubt he made it to be a cop by being an idiot. I would say that he is gulliable, naive, and stubborn. Once he sees what he wants to see, that's it. He refuses to hear anything else. Much as he treated Elisa in Her Brother's Keeper. He is the kinda guy who is ALWAYS right.
Siren - [Click my name for Hunter's Moon Trailer!]
posted @ Mon, Jan 15, 2007 7:13:32 pm EST from 67.8.165.253

I don't think I was being hard on Protection, myself. I liked that episode. I knew Maza couldn't be serious, but I was worried what would happen to her and the Gargoyles.
It was also nice to see her wear something different.

The thing with Derek is even more dumb when you realize that he was so insensed at Goliath for stopping Sevarius from creating a cure. Then he storms down to the Labyrinth, declares he's NOT interested in a cure, and tries to kill Sevarius!

Xanatos did clear Goliath of hurting Derek in any way, or of stopping the cure. And then he claims that Goliath ordered the mutation in the first place, to create neo-gargoyles. And Derek completely forgets the slide-show that Sevarius showed them both, and the fact that he KNOWS Xanatos financed it!
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Jan 15, 2007 6:23:16 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Yeah, "The Cage" is the episode more than any other that showcases how dumb Derek/Talon is. As Greg W pointed out in his ramble on the episode, at one point Derek is talking to Xanatos and is all pissed off of course. Xanatos admits that Sevarius did not die and admits that the "cure" Sevarius created in "Metamorphosis" was a placebo and admits that he has been pressuring Sevarius for a cure and admits he has been withholding this information from the Mutates... and after all that Derek is so mad that he doesn't even get what he just heard. Basically, Xanatos just cleared Goliath and the gargoyles of all wrong-doing. They didn't kill Sevarius, they are not working with him, no cure was destroyed, etc.
That was the moment I realized he wasn't too bright. It wasn't until Xanatos spelled it all out to him that he finally opened his eyes.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Mon, Jan 15, 2007 6:13:33 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Vaevictus: "Protection" is one of those episodes that I feel people are too hard on. There were some good moments in it. One of my favorites is perhaps Goliath's outrage when Broadway explains protection rackets. He seems so incensed that something almost sacred to a gargoyle could be perverted in such a way.

As far as Derek's intelligence is concerned, you're in the same camp as least two others I know, and one of them's me. Me, I just love how Derek wants to kill Sevarius before Xanatos has even suggested that the doctor might have done wrong. Moron.

<I wonder if the Mazas would ever try to bring any charges against Gen-U-Tech for their illegal activity? They should, but I suspect it will not happen in the show.> I think that they'd probably want to be low-profile. A lawsuit would mean that knowledge of the Mutates might be made public, which would them mean that there'd probably be lots of people who'd want to lock them up for study. If it even gets that far. Xanatos strikes me as someone who knows how to sweep things under the rug.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Occam's Razor. The simplest explantion is usually: somebody screwed up." -House, MD
posted @ Mon, Jan 15, 2007 5:52:54 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

TODD: Well, it is only a minor complaint anyway. Since you recommended White as a good place to start, and I have the book, I think I'll read it. I liked The Sword in the Stone when I read it before.

I watched Protection and The Cage today.

I knew Elisa had to be up to something in Protection, but I was rather worried that Matt and the Captain weren't in on it. Reflecting on the episode, I suppose it would be extremely unprofessional for a cop to go undercover like that without telling her partner or boss.
It was clever of the Gargoyles to figure out what was going on, but they took a huge risk joining in without consulting her first. They could have endangered themselves or jeopardized her opperations, since they didn't know her plan.
Overall, a tense episode.

The new Mutate models in The Cage are better than the old ones. Derek and Fang don't look the same anymore, and their feet look much more cat-like (although with the wrong number of toes for humans OR cats). I do think the superhero-style leotards they've got on (which I assume Xanatos gave them) look really silly. They would look much better if they weren't dressed like that.
But wow, Derek is DUMB. He cannot take a hint, he still falls for every fishy thing Xanatos says, he doesn't even trust his own sister! He would believe that Elisa is in on the project rather than admit he was wrong. Wow.
I wonder if the Mazas would ever try to bring any charges against Gen-U-Tech for their illegal activity? They should, but I suspect it will not happen in the show.

Upgrade:
I forgot to mention before, that the floating robot head was hilarious!
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Jan 15, 2007 3:20:32 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

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