Ah, nature vs. nurture, one of the oldest arguments in the world. One I doubt we'll settle, but it's a fascinating one ;)

I used to be a big believer in nurture over nature. Than I met my grandfather. He was never a part of my life, until I was 23 years old. My father kept him away from us.

But, when I met him, and this has been pointed out by others also... I take after him, personality wise. I'm not proud of that, I have my own issues with the man now. But, there are just so many shared personality traits, that I now think these things are in the blood.

Granted, we have the choice to rise above out nature, it's what separates us from the animals. But, Greg has said that gargoyles are driven a lot more by nature than humans are.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Both Broadway and Angela will lean toward the Gargoyle Way. I understand why you think Angela would favor the human approach, but I think you're misinterpreting things. Keep in mind how she was raised. Three parents. Many siblings. There's a certain fascination with biology which I think is "human" and natural. But ultimately, I think love for the "eggs" would win out with her. How can she possibly love one "egg" more than another, just because she laid one." - Greg Weisman
posted @ Sun, Jan 28, 2007 10:52:34 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

GregB: Okay, well I agree with you on some things and don't on others, so I'll leave it at that. Though I'm definately a nuture rules over nature type person. But I don't recall Greg or anyone ever saying that the gargoyles lean more toward nature than nuture. Is there a quote for that? And really, that's not apparent in the show at all, I could list several behaviours the gargoyles display in the show that couldn't possibly be naturally gargoylian (is that a word?)

As for Angela, I don't really mean she should give her kids special treatment over the others. Maybe just to tell them that she and Broadway are their biological parents and that's one of the things that makes them special to her (as well as many other things) and that would be that. I think she would at LEAST let them know, and I personally think it would be very out of character if she didn't.

And seriously, how could you look down on someone just because they take pride in a being that they carried and that was apart of them for ten months? I guess it's a woman thing...
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"We're sitting dorks here!" - Broadway
posted @ Sun, Jan 28, 2007 10:23:41 pm EST from 152.163.100.14

HoE.> By your logic, I shouldn't be questioning God's existence because I was raised in a devout Irish Catholic family
Good point there. But that's only you. We are talking here about a gargoyle raised by human standards and that she likes the whole biological thing.
If you were to like the God deal, if suddenly you end up in a no catholic community, and they tell you what you believe is wrong, you will have your doubts.
I also like the way gargoyles raise their children and it maybe be for both cultural and instinct reasons.
But she has been raised, as Greg said, very gargoyle like after all. She has been living with gargoyles raised traditionally for a couple of years now, so maybe she learnt something.
Demon@ - ["The access code is Jalapeña"]
posted @ Sun, Jan 28, 2007 6:05:12 pm EST from 201.235.88.204

Siren: I guessed as much.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I wrote a book on becoming a millionaire. The first page said, 'Chapter One: I get you to buy this book. Then you change the name on the cover and put it back in the book store, charging one more dollar for it than I did.' That was followed by 400 blank pages, some of them filled with pictures I drew of unicorns." -Sean Riley
posted @ Sun, Jan 28, 2007 4:47:08 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

And Ophelia is his second in command
Siren - [Click my name for my music videos!]
posted @ Sun, Jan 28, 2007 3:56:29 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

HofEyes> Yeah, Greg has said that the Avalon Clan got together and chose Gabriel as their leader.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sun, Jan 28, 2007 3:53:46 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Demon@ <They do it for cultural reasons, besides mere instinct. If, say, you take a religious person, he wont even think that, been monkeys so similar to humans, we have maybe descend from them. They wont even think about it because they were "programmed" to think that way> People aren't always programmed by their upbringing. By your logic, I shouldn't be questioning God's existence because I was raised in a devout Irish Catholic family. But I do. I also support capital punishment, even though growing up I was surrounded by adults who didn't. Just because a gargoyle was raised by humans, I don't think they would come to adapt all the human standards.


Something I've been wondering: what was the process by which the leader of the Avalon Clan was chosen? Usually, the leader chooses a second-in-command, who is prepared to one day assume the mantle. The Avalon clan had to start from scratch. I'm guessing it was probably some sort of communal decision.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Free will... it's like butterfly wings. Once touched, they never get off the ground. No, I merely set the stage. You pull your own strings." -Al Pacino ("The Devil's Advocate")
posted @ Sun, Jan 28, 2007 2:25:35 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Angela calls Goliath by his name more often than she calls him father. Even after "Sanctuary" and "Mark of the Panther". I recently re-watched most of these episodes, and she only calls him father a handful of times, 95% of the time, she calls him Goliath. Now, in fanfics, she calls him father all the time, and never by his name. But, for all intents and purposes we're not dealing with fanon here.

I don't mean to come down on you, Purplegoldfish, but I think you're misinterpreting what is on screen there. I know I watched the same episodes you are, and what Greg Weisman has described makes more sense with what we've seen on screen. Angela was very much raised the gargoyle way. Yeah, there is human influence as well, but it also comes down to nature vs nurture, and gargoyles are driven by instinct and nature a lot more than we humans are. That's one thing to keep in mind.

God willing if the comic lasts that long, and Angela is giving the hatchlings equal love and attention and not showing favoritism on Artus (and according to Greg, she won't), we'll probably get people saying she's being out of character. I won't agree, I think she'll be perfectly in character.

As I understand it, it's hard for people to understand other cultures like this. It's like trying to understand another religion. These gargoyles are so alien to us in many ways, that we feel this subconscious need to humanize them, because we'll relate to them more.

Angela raises her kids the gargoyle way. It's canon-in-training. She's not going to give Artus, Gwen and Lance special treatment... and honestly, I'd think a lot less of her if she did.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Both Broadway and Angela will lean toward the Gargoyle Way. I understand why you think Angela would favor the human approach, but I think you're misinterpreting things. Keep in mind how she was raised. Three parents. Many siblings. There's a certain fascination with biology which I think is "human" and natural. But ultimately, I think love for the "eggs" would win out with her. How can she possibly love one "egg" more than another, just because she laid one." - Greg Weisman
posted @ Sun, Jan 28, 2007 12:31:00 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

I wholeheartedly agree that gargoyles raising all the hatchlings together communally is a very interesting aspect of their culture, and I wouldn't want them to lose that.

And no, gargoyles aren't "humans with wings" and I wouldn't want them to be portrayed as such. However, they're not penguins, ants, or bees either. They are obviously BASED on humans. They exhibit human behaviours and emotions, so it's really not hard to see WHY people would see them as humans with wings. And it has been proven on the show that gargoyles CAN pick up human traits.

But I'm looking at individual characters here. Yes, Angeala was raised communally with her siblings by three foster "rookery parents." But those parents were humans who probably didn't have a lot of knowledge of the gargoyle way. Thus, some of their human characteristics seeped in.

When there are hatchlings in the clan, I believe that all the adults, including angela, will love them all unconditionally. I believe that they will be raised communally.

But I also believe that it is in Angela's character to CARE which individual hatchlings are biologically hers; and her children in turn would care who their parents are. Why do I think this? Because Angela CARES who her biological parents are! And I just don't buy the excuse that looking at the eggs together for ten years will get her to not care about which egg is hers - people don't change that easily (I mean, Demona supposedly doesn't change in Angela's whole lifetime!) I'm sorry guys, but I just can't think otherwise.

On my other point: Of course all the gargoyles' relationships will differ according to all kinds of factors. Hudson gives goliath and the trio fatherly advice many times-but I see him more as a mentor figure to them than a "father." And that doesn't change the fact that he's their rookery father, and that's ok.

It seems quite obvious to me that goliath and angela have the most human like parent/child relationship than any other gargoyles on the show. Whether it's intentional or not, that's just how it appears. She calls him "father" all the time (and I think this has more to do than him just being her "rookery father." After all, we never hear her call katharine, tom, or the magus "mother" or "father.") And Goliath refers to her many times as "my daughter" (Who can forget that last line in Hunter's moon pt1?) Yes you could argue that he's thinking of her as a daughter in the more traditional gargoyle terms, but as the series goes on it gets harder and harder to believe that's the case.

Whew, okay, I'm getting tired of writing these long posts lol. I don't think I can get my point any clearer than this so I think I'm done with this argument. Agree with me or not, doesn't matter - I just wanted people to know why I think the way I do.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"We're sitting dorks here!" - Broadway
posted @ Sun, Jan 28, 2007 12:10:50 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Kythera> Yes, but one gargoyle might call Hudson "Mentor" while another calls his "old Friend" while another calls him "Old Soldier". He may have names, but they are based on his relationships with individuals. In that sense, while humans have one name, gargoyles really have many names, or rather, titles.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sun, Jan 28, 2007 8:19:18 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Patrick-- There's one major flaw to your comparisson with penguins: a mated pair of penguins still keeps track of their own single egg from the moment it enters the world, rather than the entire colony putting all of their eggs together in a communal rookery as soon as they're laid--they're still possessive of that particular offspring while it's in the egg, thus fostering the parent-offspring bond, even before the chick hatches. Gargs pool ALL of the eggs and thus--I suppose--are possessive and protective of ALL of them, so the detatchment from the biological offspring and bond with ALL of the offspring is cultivated from the start with gargs.

Well... that's how the logic works in my head, anyway.

I will admit, though, that the NAMES thing has always bothered me. I can see how it would facilitate downplaying the Individiual in favor of the Clan, but even if one of them comes to be known as "the mentor" or "the one with the broken horn", or some other means of identifying an individual, they've been named. Perhaps not in the conventional sense, but a label has been applied to them. Which I thought made the point of not having names moot. **Shrug**
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail dot com]
I do not suffer fools, gladly or otherwise.
posted @ Sun, Jan 28, 2007 12:18:30 am EST from 76.168.61.199

Oops sorry, I forgot to add about Hudson and the Trio.

Hudson doesn't seem paternal to me either, but remember that our concepts of what fathers and mothers act like is largely formed by how our parents raise us, and how the culture around us depicts parenthood. Hudson grew up in tenth century Scotland, which had a very different culture than ours today. And the gargoyles probably have plenty of cultural differences from humans, besides just communal parentage and lack of names. Hudson grew up and became leader in a "rough" sort of clan that until then, had not allied with humans. His attitudes and behavior is often going to seem weird to our point of view.

The Trio will probably be, much more paternal toward their offspring in a way that we would recognize.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 10:04:44 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

I also really like that gargoyles are different from humans in their psychology, not just in appearance. Fantasy races are often not much different from humans except in appearance, but in science-fiction non-human races are often better thought out.

I think there's nothing at all evolutionarily implausible about gargoyles raising offspring communally. Many, many species raise their offspring communally, many lay a bunch of eggs and leave never to see them hatch, and many species are eusocial with sterile workers that slave away for somebody else's children. Kin-selection and safety in numbers are only some of the reasons why these strategies are evolutionarily sound.

Gargoyles need to have a large social group so they can protect all the eggs and rookery during the night, and still have enough left over adults to hunt every night.

A large part of the mother-child bond in humans is formed with post-partum hormones that are released during birth. And generally human women don't all give birth en masse. Gargoyles probably don't have such hormones, or the hormones that are released after laying cause them to feel maternal toward all the new eggs that they see around them. In any case, after 10 years of the entire community guarding the entire rookery of eggs, when they finally do hatch, they feel like they belong to everybody. So each female picks up the nearest hatchling to nurse, and doesn't bother about who layed its egg, because the entire clan depends on making sure the entire rookery grows up healthy and strong.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 10:00:52 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

And not only insects, even some mammals rise their offspring communally or some birds, comparing gargoyles to other animals just wont do it.
They do it for cultural reasons, besides mere instinct. If, say, you take a religious person, he wont even think that, been monkeys so similar to humans, we have maybe descend from them. They wont even think about it because they were "programmed" to think that way (it would happen the same, I guess, with someone who is taught that God is not real.
Angela has been taught according to humans standars, maybe, and just maybe, these would get on the way at some point. But maybe then Broadway and the others have more than an influence with her and she will learn the gargoyles way of rising hatchling.
Demon@ - ["The access code is Jalapeña"]
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 9:57:36 pm EST from 201.235.88.204

Their communal way of life IS the evolutionary incentive! Gargoyles evolved to need a clan around them, and thus the best thing gargoyle parents can do for their children is to make sure that their children have a clan around them when they grow up. The Series has emphasized the importance of CLAN many times. Lets not overlook this. It wasn't just about this is my family and such, CLAN for a gargoyle is about their own survival as well. CLAN is part of the gargoyle way.

So raising their children communally is a way of keeping the entire clan alive, esspecially in future generations.

In any case, look at communal insects like bees and ants and termites. Most of the individuals of their society do a lot of work for children that are not theirs. But in doing so they insure that the colony, and it's offspring colonies, will live on in the future. Gargoyles are similiar, I think. A group of individuals, pooling their resources to raise an entire generation of the next group of individuals.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 9:00:52 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Birds don't carry their growing baby, either, but even in a colony of hundreds of penguins, each pair of birds will raise their own baby and care nothing for the one belonging to another pair of birds that may be freezing to death a few feet away. There must be something else that makes gargoyles to supress the "must reproduce and pass on MY genes" drive that's so prevalent in nature with their more communal strategy of survival.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"I was driving on the freeway in the fast lane with a rabid wolverine in my underwear when suddenly I was abducted by some aliens from space who kinda looked like Jamie Farr..." - Weird Al Yankovic
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 8:29:56 pm EST from 68.76.121.18

B&CF> Was there anything you liked about the series?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 7:43:48 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

sorry for the double
Patrick> *finishing off my thought* Gargoyles don't carry their growing baby, so not having this attachment is, to me, easy to comprehend.
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: Chrono Trigger OSV (disc 3 of 3)
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 7:39:40 pm EST from 207.207.40.250

raised the gargoyle way> Just how much do we know of what constitutes being raised the "gargoyle" way? Do we know anything more than they have no knowledge of who is their actual mother and father, that they're raised communally?
If this is all that makes up "the gargoyle way", it would have been impossible for the Avalon eggs to have been raised otherwise.

"Nothing's real til you've named it..."> This has bugged me a little bit, since it's a seemingly deep statement on the surface, until you actually think about it for a minute.

Patrick> Sure, that whole having the baby growing in your belly for 9 months would have nothing to do with your feelings toward a certain baby as compared to the others.
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: Chrono Trigger OSV (disc 3 of 3)
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 7:32:01 pm EST from 207.207.40.250

And keep in mind that just because Hudson is a rookery father to Goliath, Demona, Othello, Desdemona, Iago, Hyppolyta, Brooklyn, Broadway and Lexington, he has a very different and unique relationship with all of thm.

I think it goes back to what Hudson said about naming things. "Nothing is real to you til you've named it. Given it limits."

All these gargoyles know Hudson is their rookery father. But none of them need to dwell on that NAME. To Othello, Hudson might be a mentor, to Brooklyn, Hudson might be a father, to Goliath, Hudson might be a friend. They distinguish each other based on personal relationships, not biological ones.

So, getting back to Angela, who was given a name and clearly has become addicted to the human naming custom, she probably had to pursue her relationship with Goliath as her FATHER. Because that, in her mind, was what he is to her first and foremost.

I honestly don't think gargoyles even think about the biological relationship until someone (read human) opens their eyes to it. When Artus hatches in 2018, he may greatly resemble Broadway, but lets say there are a couple eggs in that rookery. Will Broadway and Angela know one of those eggs is theirs? Sure. If pressed, could they guess which one it was? Sure. But the things is, they won't care. Even Angela, I think will have ten years to look at the eggs in the rookery and think, "One of those is mine, but really, we are a clan. These are the children of the clan." Even if it is two eggs, when they hatch and grow up I'm sure they will develop different relationship with different people. Artus might look at Brooklyn as a father figure and he might look at Broadway as a good friend.

I mean, look at Broadway and Hudson. I'm sure if they sat down and really thought about it, Hudson would say, "You know we have a lot in common, except my mate had no hair and your coloring and fan shaped ears... funny that." But the fact is, that won't ever happen because gargoyles just don't think that way.

Sometimes we are too human. We can't help it, I suppose.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 7:02:32 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Phoenician> Um, the Trio are too old to be considered rookery children for Goliath. In human terms, they are only 10 years younger than he is.

Yeah, the same now holds true for the Avalon Clan, but that's because of the passage of time on Avalon.

No offense, but that is not a good example.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"It is the nature of humankind to fear what they do not understand. Their ways are not our ways." -Goliath
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 5:36:14 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

GregXB - "Is a biological bond really that important?"

I agree that the communal raising that as Gargoyle Clans do is beautiful, but don't forget that even Goliath recognizes post-World Tour that Angela -- his daughter -- is just as, if not a TAD more, special in his eye as he views the Trio.
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
Pheon
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 5:27:31 pm EST from 157.242.212.217

Greg B> I agree with you 100% on the notion that it is wrong to turn gargoyles into "Humans with Wings". One the most appealing things about them is that they are there own beings. They have their own histories, cultures, and societal norms and value. That is part of what makes them innovative and special to me. Part of the reason I still obsessed over the cartoon for 10 years.

I agree with you.
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 2:45:02 pm EST from 74.129.251.212

Sorry for the double post.

Hudson is a clan father to the Trio, but Goliath is their leader, so of course training and leading them is Goliath's job. But, in "Kingdom", Hudson was very paternal to Brooklyn.

If Hudson and Broadway found out that they were biologically father and son, do you think that would change their relationship? I honestly don't, it wouldn't matter.

So, there are most likely, at most, two eggs in the next Rookery and a limited possibility of who the parents are... maybe the young gargoyles won't care as much and will view everyone equally as their parents. Angela will love both eggs equally, and will be a mother to them both.

There is just something beautiful about that. They don't have the same limits, bounderies and walls as we do. Is a biological bond really that important?
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"It is the nature of humankind to fear what they do not understand. Their ways are not our ways." -Goliath
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 1:58:45 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Purplegoldfish> My last post was actually to Patrick, but since this is always a fascinating discussion.

Except that from Goliath's POV, it's still not a human-like bond. He's her only clan father in proximity, she's his only clan-child and proximity.

Yeah, Angela will lay Artus's egg in 2008, but Brooklyn and Katana may have another egg also. In fact, if Brooklyn and Katana are still around to conceive, you can almost bet they will have a third egg.

Artus won't hatch till 2018, ditto Katana's third egg... who knows how things will change between now and then. Coldstone and Coldfire may rejoin the clan and be Clan parents for Angela as well.

Angela was raised by humans, and had interest in her biological parentage, but just because she was raised by humans doesn't mean she was raised like a human. She was raised very "gargoylian". Three parents (Katharine, Tom and the Magus), and lots and lots of Rookery siblings.

That's the way I always interpretted it anyway, and I watched the same canon.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"It is the nature of humankind to fear what they do not understand. Their ways are not our ways." -Goliath
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 1:53:01 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Okay, I don't think my point is getting across here. I don't think the gargoyles should raise their young the "human way." That's not what I'm saying. And I don't believe Angela or any of the others would or should "love" one child above the others-they're a clan, and they all protect and love each other regardless of biological relationships.

However, here's my point, and I'm taking facts from canon here. Angela made a HUGE deal of Goliath being her BIOLOGICAL father, and of Demona being her mother, regardless of how she was raised. I just cannot under any circumstances believe that Angela will totally throw out that "biological parent" notion from her pysche when it comes to her own children - that just makes absolutely no sense to me. How can she have a special father/daughter bond with Goliath but deny her own biological children that bond? (and I'm not exactly sure how that bond would differ but I certainly don't mean that she would "love" her own children more) I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just that's it's not very realistic.
(And it seems quite obvious to me from the episodes, disregarding "ASK GREG," that Angela and Goliath have a very human-like father/daughter bond after "Panther". I mean, Hudson is the trio's rookery father-but I never got a father/sons vibe from them.) Seriously, am I the only one who thinks this way? And I've read "Ask Greg." I know what he says, and I know his reasoning behind it...but that doesn't necessarily mean we have to agree with everything he says, even though we have to except it as canon.

As for artus, gwen and lance knowing who their biological parents are...how could they not?? (whether they care or not is a different point entirely). Yeah much later nashville and tachi will take mates and lay eggs ect.. but this is not like the old Wyvern clan where there was probably over 100 gargoyles. There are only two couples in the beginning and few more later in these kids' lifetimes, and the biological parents/children live in very close proximity. (maybe in the old days the young gargoyles stayed in their own little groups and didn't mingle with the adults too much?)
I don't see how one could not possibly discern which couple produces the lavender/aqua hatchlings and which one produces the red/beaked hatchlings. Hmm, maybe gargoyles are color blind? It would actually make sense then ;)

That's my view, and I'm sticking to it!
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"We're sitting dorks here!" - Broadway
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 1:31:06 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Demona is different, she now recognizes that Angela is her's
Well actually there has been said that Demona accepted Angela so fast because, at first, she didn't saw Angel as her child but as an opportunity.
Later on she recognizes her as a child.
Greg has said that Demona would have react similarly to any of the eggs but Angela herself gave her some room to become a mother for her: she called her mother, something that without the biological factor wouldn't have happened with any of the other eggs.
She shown certain curiosity as why Demona was the way she was and why she did the things she did. Angela reacted very "open minded" regarding Demona. Again, something that probably wouldn't have happened with any of the other eggs.
Demona, as Goliath, sees Angela as her own daughter simply because is the only child available.
Demon@ - ["The access code is Jalapeña"]
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 12:19:56 pm EST from 201.235.88.204

PATRICK> You're applying different standards and cultural beliefs to a species that doesn't share them. Like Greg said, Angela was raised in a very "gargoylian" way. Three parents, lots and lots of siblings. She calls Gabriel "brother", because he is her rookery brother.

Personally, I have said this before, and I will keep saying it, I am glad that Greg is not turning the gargoyles into "Humans With Wings". I like that they are as different from us as they are. Your example makes zero sense to humans, but these gargoyles are not humans.

Now, I know most fanfic out there tends to turn the gargoyles into "Humans With Wings", and I think that's sad. Sad that so many fic authors either so show little imagination that they cannot grasp writing a culture so different from their own, that they just fall back on writing what they know. Or, they think the gargoyle way is "weird and scary" or they don't approve of it, and decide not write what is "weird and scary".

Demona is different, she now recognizes that Angela is her's. THe reasons have been gone into before, but, there are already so many ways that Demona is so atypical of other gargoyles. In a way, she is the most humanlike out of all of them... now there's irony for you.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"It is the nature of humankind to fear what they do not understand. Their ways are not our ways." -Goliath
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 11:03:51 am EST from 67.87.175.245

And don't be so sure that Artus, Gwen and Lance will so clearly know who their biological parents are. First of all, keep in mind that Angela was raised by humans and thinks more along the lines of who begat who. I honestly think, and I think Greg W said this once too, that until Elisa pointed it out to Goliath, Goliath hadn't even considered that Angela might be his biological offspring. I mean, sure he knew one of them was his and Demona's, but he was thinking in Gargoyle terms and that means biological offspring didn't even register with him. Sure, if you had really asked him to take a guess at which one was his offspring he'd probably wonder what the point is and finally conclude that it was probably Angela, but I doubt he'd care. That's not the Gargoyle Way.

And since we know Artus, Gwen and Lance are going to be raised the Gargoyle Way, I'm not convinced they will know. Artus will more likely than the others, but once you get to Gwen and Lance... I mean, the Clan is likely to incorporate new members over the decades for one thing. I mean, assuming Nasville stays with the Clan and chooses a mate, he'll actually be a rookery father to both Gwen and Lance! Tachi will be a rookery mother to Lance as well.

I guess my point is that Angela and Broadway's three kids are going to be raised in an environment with lots of parent figures and a sense that biological relation is irrelavent. I just don't see it likely that they will be aware of who their biological parents are, and furthermore, I don't think it's likely they'd care if you told them.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 8:44:52 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Wingless: The only thing I can think of is that there might be a certain amount of instinct. They're born with wings (have been for thousands of years), so they probably have some latent knowledge of how they work. But still, they would need adults to teach them how to use air currents. At least that's how it is in the bird family, but birds are not sentient. Big difference between them and gargoyles. So I don't know.

And yeah, it's safe to say Goliath wasn't thinking properly. An abundance of grief does that to people. ( ;

Patrick: Who doesn't enjoy it? *bats an eyebrow at his signature*
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Free will... it's like butterfly wings. Once touched, they never get off the ground. No, I merely set the stage. You pull your own strings." -Al Pacino ("The Devil's Advocate")
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 8:36:00 am EST from 71.62.204.109

Because I enjoy playing devil's advocate...

"A woman enters a hospital nursery. How can she possibly love one baby more than another, just because she gave birth to one?"

I'll be back later with my own thoughts on why a statement that holds zero logic for humans might make sense to gargoyles.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"If I finish my chores, and you finish thine, then tonight we're gonna party like it's 1899." - Weird Al Yankovic
posted @ Sat, Jan 27, 2007 8:00:05 am EST from 68.76.121.18

Purplegoldfish>

"2. Both Broadway and Angela will lean toward the Gargoyle Way. I understand why you think Angela would favor the human approach, but I think you're misinterpreting things. Keep in mind how she was raised. Three parents. Many siblings. There's a certain fascination with biology which I think is "human" and natural. But ultimately, I think love for the "eggs" would win out with her. How can she possibly love one "egg" more than another, just because she laid one."
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 10:30:43 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

VA: yeah, angela was upset that goliath didn't acknowledge he was her biological father-she already knew that he was her rookery father. He only began going on his "gargoyle way" spiel with her after she began hounding him because he was afraid of her finding out about demona.
But it is all very confusing-then again, all relationships are.

I suggest reading Greg's rambles on "Monsters" and "Sanctuary" (don't worry, there are not spoilers for upcoming episodes), they might answer some questions. There might be some spoilers on what I'm writing in my next paragraph, just to warn you.


GregB: Yes I'm clear that the adults of the wyvern clan will treat all the clans' hatchlings as their own,per the gargoyle way. But I can't help wondering how the kids themselves will react (particularly Nashville) since they will know who their biological parents are.

Also, Angela converting to the gargoyle way because of influence from the wyvern clan is understandable, but I can't believe she wouldn't give her biological kids any sort of special treatment seeing as how she was raised. (It's a proven fact that how we live our lives and raise our kids is heavily influenced by how our parents raised us.) Maybe for gargoyles, nature is more powerful than nurture? But that certainly doesn't hold true for Demona.

Another thing that just entered my mind-I wonder if Hudson would treat the kids as a rookery father, since technically, he isn't one. Is there such a thing as "rookery grandparents"? And I also wonder if Elisa would be considered a "rookery mother" to the kids, and if she would regard them as such.

Gah, okay, I have stuff to do and I'm procrastinating here, so I'll shut up now ;).
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"We're sitting dorks here!" - Broadway
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 10:23:17 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Harvester of Eyes - Oh, I'm quite sure Goliath would have known Angela was his Daughter, but I still feel he was a little shocked that they had been given names and such. I don't think took the time to think about that when he handed over the care of the eggs to Magus & Kathrine that they wouldn't know the first thing about raising a gargoyle hatchling the proper way, so of course they just "winged" it-literally. Come to think of it, you have to wonder how they taught the eggs to glide on Avalon. Now that would be an interesting story...
Wingless
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 10:04:06 pm EST from 74.105.128.170

Hey all! IGN.com just named Gargoyles as one of the best comic cartoons of all time. Thought you all might be interested in looking.
anon
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 9:54:36 pm EST from 160.39.110.140

For advice on child-rearing the gargoyle way, read the bestselling book "It Takes a Clan."
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"Only question I ever thought was hard was, 'Do I like Kirk or do I like Picard?'" - Weird Al Yankovic
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 9:53:59 pm EST from 68.76.121.18

Harvester > I wasn't necessarily saying that the Matrix as written has no weakness and that the writers ought to have given it one. More that it has no apparent weakness but there must be one in there somewhere.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 9:36:20 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Wingless: <Usually, he also wouldn't know which gargoyle egg was his real biological offspring either, but Dr. Sevarius threw a wrench into that by telling telling Angela she was Goliath's Daughter.> Goliath is pretty shrewd. I think that even without DNA, one could tell by looking at the characteristics of the offspring. As Elisa pointed out, Angela does bear a slight resemblance to Demona. But as he explained, gargoyles don't view parenting the way that humans do.

Vaevictus: <The Matrix should have some sort of weakness, besides just appealing to its whim.> Well, we only really saw it for one episode. And as the song says, "nothing is invincible." Of course, I haven't watched that episode in a while, so I might be mistaken.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Free will... it's like butterfly wings. Once touched, they never get off the ground. No, I merely set the stage. You pull your own strings." -Al Pacino ("The Devil's Advocate")
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 9:17:33 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Purplegoldfish>

"3. Nash will be raised individually, initially, or communally if you consider that his TimeDancing parents represent the complete community of adults. Tachi will also get some individual rearing, because B&K will be the only parents in range. But both kids will get a lot of community parenting from the Manhattan Clan. 3. Nash will be raised individually, initially, or communally if you consider that his TimeDancing parents represent the complete community of adults. Tachi will also get some individual rearing, because B&K will be the only parents in range. But both kids will get a lot of community parenting from the Manhattan Clan. "
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 9:16:42 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Spoiler warning for VA...



Just a thought...Even though broadway's and angela's kids will be raised the gargoyle way, they've gotta know who their biological parents are. There will only be two couples in the clan who produce children. And I wonder what Nashville's influence will be on them-I doubt he would have been raised the gargoyle way through his timedancer adventures.

and on a related note - I was surprised that Angela was surprised that Goliath is her biological father. I mean, they're the same exact color. It's kind of funny that gargoyles raise their kids so they don't know who their parents are, yet it's pretty obvious who's related to whom.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"We're sitting dorks here!" - Broadway
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 9:12:29 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Sorry, PurpleGoldFish posted while I was typing my post.

Is it that she feels hurt, that he doesn't seem to consider biological parentage special in any way? I can see why that would make her feel bad. He does say before that episode that he is one of her fathers, but when she says he is her biological father, he doesn't seem to care. Maybe that hurt her feelings. It isn't that he didn't acknowledge her as a daughter, but that the biological part doesn't matter to him? That he acts only as an adoptive father?

I think the honesty thing may be just that when she asked about Demona, Goliath said nothing and Elisa answered instead. Was it also that he didn't tell her specifically who her biological mother was? I guess even if Demona wasn't crazy and dangerous, that it wouldn't occur to him anyway to bring up one specific one of her many mothers.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 8:54:20 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

I guess I haven't really noticed the ways in which he is being distant. It's clear that Angela is asking something from him and he is unwilling to give it, and annoyed by her asking, but I can't really tell what it is. Long intimate chats? A hug? Sitting down for a board game? I'm sure I'm being too literalistic or materialistic here.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 8:44:28 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Vaevictis RE: Goliath and Angela: Actually, Goliath never acknwoledged angela as his daughter (biological or otherwise), until the end of "Mark of the Panther". That is why she acted so happy when he finally did.

And I think their little tiff is understandable. Goliath and Angela were raised differently. Angela was raised by humans, who undoubtably passed some human ideals onto their gargoyle children. When Angela found out that Goliath was her biological father, and he denied her that fact-that's when she got upset. (Imagine if you were adopted and you contacted your bio parents, and they refused to acknowledge that they were your parents).

And Goliath isn't treating her like this because of the "Gargoyle way". The real reason is that he's afraid that she'll look to Demona as her biological mother and he's afraid of what would happen if Demona is able to influence angela to her cause (I think Greg mentions this in his ramble in "sanctuary.")

So Diane finally gets it through goliath's head that what he's doing is unfair, because biological or not, angela is still considered his daughter, and she's the only one with him-so he should treat her as such.

Hope this clears some things up.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"We're sitting dorks here!" - Broadway
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 8:40:51 pm EST from 205.188.117.68

Keep in mind also, that Angela and Broadway will raise their eggs the gargoyle way. So, she may have been raised among humans, but she is still very much, culturally a gargoyle.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 8:01:42 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Vaevictis: Re Goliath and Angela - Keep in mind that Angela and the Avalon eggs were raised by Humans, so Angela has no knowledge of the "Gargoyle way" IE, Culture. She was brought up under human cultures. Remember Goliath's surprise when Tom first calls her Angela and Goliath says "You've given them names?!" and she replies "how else would we tell each other apart" Very un gargoyle like-at least from his point of view. Now that she's along for the skiff ride, he wants her to learn some of her own culture. He may be pushing her a little quickly - and the whole father/clan parenting concept might be hard for her to grasp. It might seem to her like he's pushing her away, or being distant simply because Goliath doesn't want to play favorites. Usually, he also wouldn't know which gargoyle egg was his real biological offspring either, but Dr. Sevarius threw a wrench into that by telling telling Angela she was Goliath's Daughter.

So there are a lot of factors to consider here in how both Goliath is acting and how Angela is reacting to him. Elisa's mom helps to smooth things over between them in the end, but I can still see some growing pains for both of them in the future -especially if any of the other Avalon "eggs" come to the real world.
Wingless
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 7:54:27 pm EST from 74.105.128.170

Vaevictis> I'm pretty sure I read/heard somewhere that keeping an active lifestyle is the healthiest thing you can do while pregnant.

Harvestor, Harvestor, Harvestor. Name calling? Is that what you've stooped to? *tsk, tsk, tsk* I would have expected better from you. :P
*reference anyone?*

GBishansky> Then I'll just keep that actual character model sheet for Ophelia that the animators were given that I acquired a while back to myself. j/k
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: "Chrono Trigger" Original Sound Version
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 7:35:15 pm EST from 207.207.40.250

I also thought that the different animation style for the fable of the Panther Queen was a great idea.

The thing that I like most about the Matrix is that it isn't evil so much as misguided. It's simply obeying its orders to create order, and doesn't understand that the way that it's doing so would wipe out life as we know it. (Given how new it is to the world, it probably isn't even fully aware of the nature of organic life.) I especially like the moment where Goliath points out to the Matrix what the consequences of its actions will be for the world and it says, "But we must have order", in a way that indicates that it's beginning to understand what Goliath is saying, but it's still stuck with the problem of having to obey its programming.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 7:30:44 pm EST from 4.245.21.239

Vaevictis> "I like that the legend is animated differently. It puts a different feel on it, very appropriate. It looks like the sort of animated fairy tale that sometimes shows on places like Reading Rainbow."
-Which seems appropriate given that Levar Burton guest starred in "Mark..."
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 7:02:16 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Vaevictis Asmadi: considering all the little ironis and tragic endings on the show, probably you theory is correct. haha
Demon@ - ["The access code is Jalapeña"]
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 6:50:57 pm EST from 201.235.88.204

Well, sorry this is a double-post, but nobody else is posting. And it is on a different topic. I watched two more episodes.

Walkabout:

*Elisa states they *must* be in Australia, but they could be in New Guinea instead.
*Dingo and Goliath attack each other on sight. They really don't have any reason to fight at this moment, but they both do because they assume the other will attack, so each wants to pre-emptively get in the first shot. Somehow that moment in the episode highlights the total pointlessness of fighting.
*The Dreamtime looks pretty cool. Although it is probably different from the Dreamtime of mythology, I like that they still included the element of having different time.
*Goliath and Dingo's defeat seems to be a failur of imagination. If the Dreamtime really was a place of pure thought, they could have imagined whatever glamours they wanted. Between them they probably had more imagination than a machine, if they had tried really hard.
They were able to think up another way, however. Although it seemed really amazingly easy to convince the thing. I guess it isn't as bright as they are.
*Anastasia forgets to react to the gargoyles the way a normal human would. Oops. Well, maybe Fox already told her about them.
*She also looks way, way younger than her ex-husband. Is this because the disease makes him look really old (white and wrinkled, etc) or because she can't bother to make it look like she's aging? If I didn't know she's not human, I would wonder why she's so much younger.
*All that running around while pregnant -- isn't it unhealthy? And rather difficult?
*The shaman guy looks at the gargoyles and doesn't skip a beat. He just says "Oh, they are mythical creatures. OK. Whatever." O.o
*The Matrix merges with Dingo's armor. Does that mean he can't take it off anymore?

I think the Matrix was programmed with a faulty understanding of what "order" is. The terrain it destroyed wasn't random. All of it had been shaped by wind and sun and water, all of them working in specific ways with specific results, all within the laws of nature. The Matrix really only destroyed complexity and created simplicity and geometric shapes. That isn't the same as order.
I don't like the idea of the Matrix being omnipotent, though. I don't think humans can create omnipotent things. The Matrix should have some sort of weakness, besides just appealing to its whim.

This all goes to show that playing God is never a good idea. Xanatos and Fox want the power to re-shape the planet to their whim. Nobody should have that power, and now the weapon they created has turned on them. It could very easily have wiped out humanity. Although like I said, I don't like the idea of an omnipotent being that can wipe out humanity with a whim. Even though the idea of defeating it through persuasion is neat, the concept of the threat is slightly ... all encompassing and boring.

It seems able to increase or decrease its volume in seconds. But it should have some kind of physical limits, after all it is made of physical robots. And how does sending some nanites into the power-plant make it instantly able to cover the entire planet? The robots still need to co-opt the machinery to feed the energy into them, and to let them use it somehow to make more of themselves. It seems the Matrix is depicted as way more powerful than should be possible.




Mark of the Panther:

*I like the different bird calls in the jungle. I wonder if those are the calls of actual specific Nigerian birds
*How is Fara Maku get up again after being shot?
*Fara Maku and Tea are't terribly mature, aren they. His solution to her moving is to ruin her life. Her solution to this is to try to wipe out an entire species. Yay. I'm glad she manages to forgive him, though.
*Anansi is gross. He drools green stuff.
*They take him out with an iron spear. I know he's not dead, but I'd think a steel or iron spear would be able to kill him.
*I like the scene at the waterfall where Goliath saves Elisa... only to get knocked out by Angela falling on him.
*I'm sure Diane has a specific reason to be in Nigeria, like she's on vacation or something. But it never is explained.
*Elisa doesn't tell Diane that she tried to call Matt. Why not?
*I can't tell whether Fara Maku can shapeshift voluntarily or not.
*The animation on the shapeshifting is not as good as in Eye of the Beholder.
*I'm glad the poachers got past S&P. They didn't show the skinned carcass, but they didn't have to.
*I like that the legend is animated differently. It puts a different feel on it, very appropriate. It looks like the sort of animated fairy tale that sometimes shows on places like Reading Rainbow.

Angela is getting all sarcastic in both these episodes. I don't really know what she wants. Hasn't Goliath already agknowledged that he is one of her fathers? Does she feel that he isn't being intimate enough with her, is that it? Diane is right of course, that he is her only surviving father, and she's the only daughter on Earth. But how would that change his behavior? I guess there haven't been enough conversations between them for me to get a clear idea of how they act when they aren't chasing after things or fighting things. So the situation confuses me. I don't really know what either of them wants from the other. Angela talks about honesty a lot. Is she just mad at him because he didn't tell her at first that he was her biological father? What's wrong with that? It's his culture, and the way he grew up thinking. Why does it make her so mad? He's not keeping any secrets or telling her lies at the moment.
Maybe this reveals something about my own parents, but he doesn't seem un-fatherly to me.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 5:10:31 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

You know what's kind of ironic? Although Hakon and the Captain ruined the gargoyles' lives, in a way they saved their lives afterwards. If they hadn't been haunting that castle and generally scaring away all the humans, then probably at some point in a thousand years, some humans would have moved in, and killed the gargs -- either deliberately because they knew what they were, or because they just thought the statues ugly and wanted to redecorate, or most likely: because in the Middle Ages people were always tearing down old buildings to use the stones for new buildings.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 2:11:04 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Blaqthorne: <I'm actually conserned for the fans who visit the Gargwiki for accurate info.>

I should have figured this out from the fact that you get in a tizzy over four-letter words. You're one of those watchdogs protecting people from things they don't need to be protected from.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Free will... it's like butterfly wings. Once touched, they never get off the ground. No, I merely set the stage. You pull your own strings." -Al Pacino ("The Devil's Advocate")
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 6:24:55 am EST from 71.62.204.109

wiki thing looks good if you ask me :P but no one asked me so ill be quiet:P
Shara
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 2:19:10 am EST from 4.245.120.114

Why am I still awake?

Yes, as a wiki, anyone can edit or add entries. But, I and others keep a close watch on the edits. For example, a while back, a major Demona revisionist decided to edit Demona's entry. As soon as I saw it, I restored the previous version.

Yes, anyone could replace Ophelia's pic, but, I will just put the pic that we already have back up.

You're not going to change any minds. Give it up.

And this is the last thing I'm going to say to you on this subject.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 2:04:25 am EST from 67.87.175.245

*I'll be repeating myself*
DTaina> "Ok, I was having too much fun with the Ophelia bit."
Actually, someone (Justin) claimed that I proved myself wrong, so I felt that I should reply.

GBishansky> "To me, this is tantamount to posting inaccurate info." --*To me*
Just out of curiosity, does every submission to the Gargwiki have to go through some sort of committee? Isn't the idea of a wiki that anyone, or anyone who has a registered account, can post anything they want regarding topics?
If so, then couldn't that shot actually be changed? I haven't watched all the episodes in a while, but maybe there IS a better shot of Ophelia. 'Twould be hard to top that one, though.

"There is nothing on the site that is 'inaccurate.'"
What exactly is meant by "distinct wing structure"? If it is only the two fingers on the wing, I produced an example of another gargoyle in the series that also has two fingers on the wing.

Patrick> I did go through "Thrill of the Hunt" with a fine-toothed comb a long time ago for a nitpick page to look for animation gaffs.

I'm just here for Harvestor's entertainment :P
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
"You're a monster! A totally hot monster!"--Trixie Tang (Fairly OddParents)
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 1:57:14 am EST from 207.207.40.250

Blaqthourne: I thought you dropped the subject earlier. Why did you bring it up again? :P

"As for whether she was injured before the attack, only someone involved in the production can give us a difinitive answer."

It's a blooper. She wasn't supposed to have a bandage and she wasn't injured the night before. Why would she be injured anyway? On peaceful Avalon, where the gargoyles never had to fight? It's far more likely that she was shot in the wing and the heat from the laser burned her arm and leg. We saw it happen. It's in the show. This theory of yours that Ophelia was injured the night before isn't. :P

Bloopers happen all the time. Try watching an episode frame by frame and you'll see what I mean. It's best to just accept it and move on. :P
D. Taina
"This is a job for the gargoyles!" - Elisa
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 1:01:07 am EST from 172.131.219.41

If you go frame by frame in "Sanctuary" during he scene where Demona transforms while wearing the wedding dress, there are spots where her brow ridge is colored gold. Does this mean the Demona entry of the wiki should state that she has a gold brow ridge, the backstory of which has yet to be explained by Greg Weisman? Or does it mean than the animator doing the coloring of that cel made an error?

Bloopers happen. I think we can be smart enough to recognize them and not treat obvious screwups like a misplaced bandage, two Hudsons in one camera shot, or a miscolored detail as literal canon. As for doctoring screenshots... that probably wouldn't go over well at Wikipedia, but if the admins of the Gargoyles wiki want to allow it, that's their call.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"Only question I ever thought was hard was, 'Do I like Kirk or do I like Picard?'" - Weird Al Yankovic
posted @ Fri, Jan 26, 2007 12:08:36 am EST from 68.76.121.18

B&CF> "If you look at one frame previous to the shot you posted, it looks like the beam is well clear of her leg."

The previous frame? Interesting. Since you haven't chosen to comment on my arguments based on the frame I posted, am I to assume you agreed with them? I mean, I would think if you disagreed, you would have articulated that.

But instead you chose to shift the focus to the previous frame, of which I don't see how that is even relevant. It's a laser beam, even if it's only 1 frame where it's close enough to burn, it will burn.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9032/ophelia1cb4.png

And I would disagree that the previous frame is much different to start with. The beam still goes over a part of her thigh, and since it is in front of her leg, it cannot be said that "the beam is well clear of her leg".

And the beam is thicker in this shot, which means more heat to burn.

So as I said, I don't understand the relevance of that shot, if anything, it strengthens my argument about injury from radiant heat because them beam is thicker.

But like Matt said about the two Hudsons being a result of the Phoenix Gate(that's amusing enough to be a good idea). Even though it's a blooper, you can still try to find an in-universe explanation, I'm not trying to discourage you from that.

I'm just saying it was originally a blooper. This may be a good question to ask Greg when submissions reopen.
Ntripy
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 9:38:40 pm EST from 72.232.196.138

B&CF> What "inaccurate info"??? Every thing on the wiki comes from either the series, or ASK GREG. There is nothing on the site that is "inaccurate."

And, I cannot believe you're still arguing about that picture. It's not changing, and all your whining and long winded posting is not going to change any minds.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 7:55:17 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Vaevictis re: MIA> You're missing one vital point: When Goliath first shows up in his timeline, Una and Leo had already lived through WWII. To them, Griff went off with Goliath and only Goliath returned. Yes, people die in war, but how many people are as close as Griff was to them? To them, if Goliath hadn't shown up (during WWII), Griff would not have been killed.
I'm pretty sure some swastikas did actually appear in the episode, they just weren't that noticeable.

*catches subject on the rebound* Ok, who went and installed rubber floors? Fury went to pounce on the TGC rib and darn near catapulted himself out the window.
Ok, I was having too much fun with the Ophelia bit. This seems a rather harmless topic.

I noticed that shot doesn't have her 2 tail spikes. And where exactly was her quiver?

As for whether she was injured before the attack, only someone involved in the production can give us a difinitive answer.

Harvestor> I claim that Ophelia was injured the night before. I don't see how her having the bandage when she wakes up means that it's a blooper.

Justin> I went back over the scene after work. 30 seconds elapse between when the first gargoyle (Gabriel) starts waking up and Macbeth and Demona blast through the castle wall, it takes 15 of those seconds before we see all the gargoyles that we see start to wake up. Another 15 seconds elapse until Ophelia is shooting at Macbeth. So, in 30 to 45 seconds after Ophelia wakes up, she must pick up her bow and arrows, get into a position to attack and start shooting. Do you really think she would find it more important to remove bandages in those 30-45 sec?

Ntripy> If you look at one frame previous to the shot you posted, it looks like the beam is well clear of her leg.

GBishansky> "Considering you don't care about the site, anyway, why are you wasting your time coming down on us over this?"
I'm actually conserned for the fans who visit the Gargwiki for accurate info. To me, this is tantamount to posting inaccurate info.

"I wish I had enough free time in my day to make long winded posts about things I don't care about."
Yeah, it sure is nice :P What else do I have to do while watching the Australian Open?

TGC> This was the most important show of the last 4 months of 1996. It had one purpose in life and it served it perfectly. That was to give ABC something to preempt with college football.

*Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury hide behind each other and disappear*
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: Searching for Bobby Fischer OST
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 7:47:54 pm EST from 207.207.40.250

Vaevictis Asmadi-- "He speaks in tongues..."

Actually, I'm fairly certain he was speaking Irish. ^_-
Kythera of Anevern
I do not suffer fools, gladly or otherwise.
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 7:22:41 pm EST from 65.169.99.145

I have finished The Sword in the Stone (I read it rather slowly) so now I will be starting the part of the book that I've never read before.

Grief> Yes, Jackal as the Avatar really looks totally crazy. I really like how the Avatars look so different, how merging with the god makes their personality and intentions visible and physical. And the cyborg parts on his asymmetrical face add to the look.
As a kid I thought that the Emir-Avatar looked like a weasel, but I didn't get that impression this time.

MIA > Goliath was definitely right. And just look at all the messes Xanatos has caused for them!
I doubt a Nazi takeover of Britain would be good for the gargoyles. Aside from all the daytime shelling, I doubt the Nazis would tolerate gargoyles any better than Jews or Roma (Gypsies) or homosexuals or cripples. It would be like living in a country controlled entirely by the Quarrymen, they would have to stay completely in hiding! And if anyone wanted to inspect their country manor for some reason, that could be the end of their clan!
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 6:57:35 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

One of my favorite parts of "M.I.A." is Goliath's remark about how "Human problems become gargoyle problems". And a look at the series shows how true it is. The Wyvern massacre ultimately stems from the Vikings' greed for plunder and loot that drives them to attack Castle Wyvern, as much as from the tensions within between humans and gargoyles. The early Hunters originate as much out of the struggle between Duncan's family and Macbeth's over the Scottish throne as over Gillecomgain's feud with Demona. Constantine's murder of Kenneth and desire to make Princess Katharine marry him so as to secure his usurped throne (marrying into the old royal family is always useful if you seized the crown rather than obtained it legally) is what leads to the flight of the eggs to Avalon. And, jumping ahead (I'd better warn you, Vaevictis, that this involves spoilers): the real reason behind the Quarrymen's persecution of the gargoyles is another human problem - their leader had shot his brother, injuring him enough that he will never walk again, is overwhelmed by guilt over it but lacks the strength to acknowledge it, and takes it out on the gargoyles instead.

On "Grief": Yes, the late Tony Jay did a great Anubis. This episode truly unsettled me with all the things that Jackal did as Anubis's avatar (including aging the characters - though there was the comical contrast of turning Wolf into a puppy!). It's all the more interesting an episode because it turns a mere name mentioned in a couple of previous episodes into an important figure in his own right (Greg Weisman has spoken highly of Tony Shalhoub's voice performance as the Emir and how effectively he conveyed his mourning for the death of his son).

I like to watch "The Hound of Ulster" every St. Patrick's Day, but I don't have that much to say about it at the moment. Maybe later.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 6:38:09 pm EST from 4.244.208.130

I think Cuchulain was some kind of an Hercules for the celtic culture. He was a semi-god, son of Lugh, if i rembeber these correctly
Demon@ - ["The access code is Jalapeña"]
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 5:58:59 pm EST from 201.235.88.204

Oops, of course the Sphinx is at Giza, not Cairo, and it probably wasn't a major town anyway.


The Hound of Ulster:

This was an interesting episode. I didn't know what to expect except I knew a banshee and Cuchulain would show up at some point. I got worried when they sank into the water.

*Molly's warning about the Black Beast was pretty funny.
*That banshee noise is pretty unpleasant sounding. By which I mean it was mixed really well.
*Crom-Cruach is really hideusly ugly. Yuck.
*I wondered what all that howling was, since I know wolves are extinct in Ireland, and it was funny to find out it was only Bronx. Elisa's comment was funny, too. "Very atmospheric."
*Cuchulain's got really weird eyes, and the banshee says "you've lived among mortals for too long." Was he a halfling in his past life, or something?
*The banshee really is nasty all around. Goliath keeps dropping into unfortunate misunderstandings, doesn't he?
*That's one very magical spear. But where did the shield and helmet come from? I guess the spear sort of created them.
*Molly/Banshee is clearly trying to be the worst influence she can be. She's probably been "friends" with him since childhood, trying hard to turn him into a bum and a criminal.
*Molly turning into the Banshee was a total surprise to me. I had figured she was just this bum that he hung out with.
*Bronx is great here. Rory runs away and Bronx chases him, just like dogs do when they think you're playing a game.
*I like the "uglier than a bus" line
*Cuchulain has clearly met (winged) gargoyles before since he doesn't react to them, and assumes that Bronx is with them
*The great thing about stone sleep is that you never have to wake up soaked in mud. It just comes right off.
*Were the stones on the mound a vision Rory was seeing, or a glamour the Banshee created, or was the hill without the stones the illusion?
*What did the banshee do to Rory before he showed up at noon in his house? Creepy.
*Or, why didn't she just kill him or something? Oberon's law, I guess.
*So, if Rory is Cuchulain, is Bronx a reincarnatin too? And is he the original hound that Cuchulain killed and had to replace, or one he was friends with afterward?

The one thing that bugged me was how very quickly Rory adjusts to being the reincarnation of somebody else from 2000 years ago. It was interesting (and weird) when he was having inexplicable attractions to the random mound that the gargs and Elisa were stuck in. But the moment he touches that spear (which flies out of a wall?) BAM. He speaks in tongues and suddenly changes. No period of adjustment at all. No time allowed in which to adjust to having past and present identities and personalities forcibly squished together. I know that 22 minutes is very short to squeeze tons of things in, but it felt kind of forced and artificial.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 5:14:01 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Vaevictus Asmadi> MIA and Grief were (are) definitely 2 of my favorite episodes.

Griff was a fun character. I really liked his design style (Nice leather.), and he had a great personality, too. I just plain liked the character.

Neil Dickson really made the character work, IMO. He was a talented man who fit the bill perfectly. Great casting choice, there.

As far as them (Leo and Una) blaming Goliath, they weren't upset so much about Griff being 'dead' (though they WERE peeved about that) but that Goliath failed to protect him, at least in their eyes. They'd lost a loved one due to the 'inability of his prectorate', so to speak. Of course they'd be jumping all over Goliath upon 1st sight, even after 50 years. At least, that's my theory.

As for Grief, there's just a lot of great things about this episode.

-Jackal as 'Death' was cool, and, life Griff, I found myself digging the design style like Bill Cosby with Jello. He was just cool looking, IMO.
-I agree with you. Anubis himself was a cool character. It's really too bad we couldn't have had more of him in other episodes, and we probably will never see him in the comic, either.
-Tony Jay was perfect for the part. His voice alone made Anubis a funky character. May he R.I.P.
-For some reason, I really liked Wolf and Hyena in this one. "What in blazes is that?!" "I think it used to be my brother..." Classic lines, there.
KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 4:51:11 pm EST from 69.95.28.120

Vaevictis> I believe Anubis is the most important of the death gods. So, removing him would do more damage than, say, removing Banshee.

And yes, Jackal/Anubis did wipe out that town. Those people are dead.

As for the Emir... well, Jackal said he might reunite him with his son... which was a bribe to keep the Emir from acting. But, in the end, he did do the right thing.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 4:47:20 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Woops, I forgot to write anything about MIA and Grief.

MIA is one of those episodes that I had foolishly read the entire plot of earlier, but it was still fun to see it. Leo and Una really are not sympathetic characters. Even if Griff had died, it isn't fair for them to hate on Goliath like that. People die in war, and they could have given Goliath the benefit of the doubt, or at least not kidnapped his friends who had nothing to do with it. Goliath doesn't even get a chance to say "Wow, there are other gargoyles, we aren't extinct!" because they start on him right away. Also, Griff was pretty set on going out, and had on previous nights, before Goliath showed up, so it isn't really fair to blame him for that, either.

I can see gargoyles saying "It isn't our affair which humans rule the countryside, as long as they don't attack us." But at the same time I have to wonder how much Leo and Una knew about Nazis. I don't think the Allies knew about the death camps until after the war (correct me if I'm wrong, all you historians) but they should still care if the humans are being invaded and bombed and killed left and right. Or the fact that the Nazis were trying to take over all of Europe. I can understand not running out and joining the human army (plenty of humans didn't either) but not caring about it at all, like Una, I have trouble empathising with.

Griff is a fun character. He does look a bit like Foghorn Leghorn. It is the hair and still more, his lack of ears. Heraldic griffins generally have ears, and the other gargoyles have ears. I think that's the main reason he looks a bit weird. But with his voice and the way he talks and acts, I don't really notice so much.

When I first saw screencaps of the English gargoyles, I was put off by their appearance. Now that I've researched mythical garg-like creatures around the world, I appreciate it much more. I imagine there were probably lots of clans in East Europe, Anatolia, Persia, and Central Asia with feathered wings like that. Those are the places where griffin legends came from. I also realise that they probably made Griff and Una look so different to confuse the audience. Could these strange things be a new gargoyle clan, or are they really really cool masks, or maybe Children of Oberon? If they looked more conventional, a lot of the effect would be lost.

I do wonder how long a deception like that would last, though. Even the most amazing rubber masks, with jaws that open and the rubber holes tight around the eyes, don't look that realistic. Not enough that the lips and tongue move.

It was fun to see gargoyles sitting around having high tea and talking about the sugar shortage, just as if they were humans.

I think it's interesting that Goliath thinks he can change history. He learned that lesson in Vows, but it seems he's forgotten it.

I gather the enemy aircraft were Nazis, but I didn't see any swastikas. Instead there were crosses and pirate emblems. That's really weird.

For the second time in the World Tour, Elisa directly asks some random native about gargoyles. Perhaps she just doesn't care if people think she's crazy, but wouldn't it have been more sensible to ask "What are those statues on top of the plane supposed to be?" of "Why are there those creatures on top of the plane?" or even "Don't tell me gargoyles fought in the Battle of Britain, too?"
If we use an example from a less real creature, imagine if somebody came up to you and asked "Do you think dragons fought in the Civil War?" you would probably look at them funny.

I would like to learn more about what Greg intends for "gremlins" in the Garg universe.


Grief is one of the World Tour episodes that I saw as a kid and had a pretty clear memory of, so it wasn't much surprise either. I had never seen the beginning of the episode, though. Angela's comment about the Sphinx is certainly interesting. Is she only reacting to it being an animal-shaped statue? Or is this a hint that Sphinxes are based on gargoyles? I think ram-headed and hawk-headed sphinxes were, but I think it would be pretty weird to have garg-beasts with a human-like face.

*Coyote was fun. I really liked the line "I was programmed to shoot first and ask questions later." :)
*Goliath has ribs. This may have simply been the artists making him humanoid without any thought about gargoyle evolution, but I still think it is worth noting
*Goliath and Angela don't look like they've aged half as much as Elisa. They look even older than Demona did before the Weird Sisters enchanted her.
*Even when Jackal is the Avatar and is planning to wipe out all life on Earth, the Emir still hesitates to stop him. Hmmm. Not a guy with a great deal of integrity, I'd say. He does figure it out in the end, though. Divine revelation can do that to somone (unless they are a sociopath like Jackal).
*When the Emir told Goliath about his son, I expected Goliath to tell him how most of his family was murdered, and he still isn't trying to subvert the laws of nature, but he did not mention it.
*The aging sequences were impressive animation.
*Anubis (as himself) was cool.

If the Avatar can un-age people but can't bring back the dead, then the crocodile skeletons must stay dead. But did Jackal kill a whole bunch of people in Cairo, too? I worry about that. I imagine since people wouldn't lose their memory of the occasion, that the survivors would have a lot to talk and worry about, and it would be in the papers, etc.

I was bothered by the gargs and the pack destroying all those funerary artifacts. I mean, people were buried there. Talk about an un-restful afterlife.

When Anubis is held captive, nothing can die. But aren't there other death-gods? Anubis can't be the only one who belongs to the Third Race. Is it enough to imprison any one of them, that then the rest can't do their job? Like maybe all of them together are necessary to make death work, or perhaps capturing one of them sort of puts a clog in the drain and ruins it for the rest of them? Or is Anubis just the oldest and most important death-god?
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 4:10:37 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Just thought you'd all like to know, considering the long wait I had from SLG when I ordered issue #1 of the comic, I'm pleased to say that things have greatly improved with issue #2. Having ordered my 3 copies on January 17th, they arrived today - nice and cold(it's -27oC with the wind chill) Anyway, although I agree with the comments on it being a little on the dark side art wise, I enjoyed it. Having read the update in Ask Greg about the up coming issues, I'm dying for more! I even like the idea of guest artists - just to see what they can bring to the characters. Keep 'em comin' peoples. Woo!
Wingless
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 4:08:32 pm EST from 74.105.128.170

Vaevictus Asmadi> Ah. I must've missed her posting the link. Thanks, anyways. Kudos.

Hn. I'd never noticed the '2 Hudsons' thing before. Go figure.

dph> That's good news on the comic. :-)

*resumes reading Greg W.'s responses to his G2K6 Journal*
KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 3:52:30 pm EST from 69.95.28.120

Good news:

From the slg blog http://slg-news.livejournal.com/165473.html:

I've been rallying the troops, and if not by the end of February, I hope to get it out by early March. Getting final approval on the finished book without delays is going to be a problem, though. It's so frustrating to have a finished book just sitting.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 2:41:32 pm EST from 162.40.58.81

Yeah, but DTaina already posted it:

http://members.aol.com/bellegarg3/Pans/Kingdom_Bloopers.jpg
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 2:37:16 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

VA> Got a link? :)

Greg B.> That's a sound theory, but I can't help but wonder: will/would MacBeth play a factor into all that somehow? What's his role supposed to be in 2056 and/or 2198? Obviously, he's still alive at those times, unless Demona somehow discovers a way to sever her link with MacBeth and still retain her immortality...
KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 2:26:40 pm EST from 69.95.28.120

I didn't notice the blooper in Kingdom. But DTaina posted it and it is pretty funny. Although two Hudsons is funnier. Also Broadway's wingtip is cut off in that shot.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 12:34:56 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Hmm, another thought on Goliath's sacriifise, and the UN passing the GMPA. We know that 2008 is definitely too early.

How does 2056 sound to you? We know that, once destroyed, thanks to the Atlantean Crystal inside it, the Praying Gargoyle regenerates. Demona tried to use it in 1920 to destroy humanity, and it was destroyed, so, she leaves it on holy ground and returns sixty years later to claim it. Again, in 1996, Demona tried to use it as a key piece of a scheme to destroy humanity, and again it was destroyed.

So, if it takes sixty years to regenerate, than by 2056, it'll be ready for Demona to use again. Goliath would be in the gargoyle equivilant of his 50s by then. Elisa would be, if still alive, close to eighty.

I don't have much to base this on, just Greg saying 2008 is too early for the passing of the GMPA, and the assumption that 2056 will be a big year for Demona.

We know that in 2198, Demona does not get along with anyone initially. Greg was very adamant about that. She begins the series, still as humanity's enemy. I always felt that neither Goliath nor Angela would live to see Demona have her epiphany... and, if Demona is responsible for Goliath's death, well... maybe that's the final nail in the Demona coffin for Angela.

Just a theory.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 12:22:10 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Vaevictis Asmadi>Kingdom> What about when Bronx showed up (it's dark, but that's definitely his shape) in the scene where Talon leaves to return to the labyrinth?

How bizarre was that? I had to rewind the tape the very 1st time I saw it to make sure I wasn't seeing things.

While I'm on the subject, in the episode "The Cage", anyone else notice that it wasn't Fang that Maggie and Claw were carrying off the clock tower, but Talon instead?
KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 12:11:52 pm EST from 69.95.28.120

No wait, the arm bandage doesn't necessarily appear out of nowhere, I can't see her right arm in the before shot, but it is there in the scene.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 11:25:45 am EST from 209.162.56.94

Things I forgot to mention about Kingdom:
*It was pretty funny when Cagney slept on Hudson's head, and got woken up in the evening!
*The Mutate fight in the air, with hovering, was cool.


DTaina: Those bloopers are pretty funny!

I think Ophelia's bandages in that scene are bloopers. For one thing, before she is shot she only has a bandage on the leg. As she is getting shot, she has an arm bandage that appears out of nowhere. And her entire upper leg is colored white, instead of just the bandage, while part of the arm-bandage is skin-colored. Later her leg bandages skip from leg to leg for the rest of the episode. I think it's clear that the artist for that episode did not know what her model was supposed to look like.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 11:21:12 am EST from 209.162.56.94

I know I'm a little late, but I still wanted to bring it up.

When a female gargoyle is of mating age but does not mate, like Demona, does she lay an unfertilised egg? Birds do. I was just wondering if anyone had given it any thought.

=)

I'm really looking forward to all the comics. Yar.

Oh, and I really appreciate all the wonderful screenshots, DTaina. I hope that was the right name.
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 8:32:41 am EST from 68.55.107.142

"quite of the few of the things"

For some reason, that phrase makes me laugh.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 7:26:36 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Shara: No, some of it's crap. Take it from someone who had to repeatedly view "Generations" to do an episode synopsis. The only thing preventing me from taking that videotape into the backyard and murdering it is that there are other Gargoyles episodes on the tape, ones I actually like. Of course, having to suffer through it a number of times, my opinion's a little biased. Lord knows how Taina is managing to do so many of those.

Concerning Ophelia: Wouldn't be the first time the wrong character model got used. Look at City of Stone, Part 1. Used the wrong Demona all throughout 994.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"We are who we choose to be... now CHOOSE!" -Willem Dafoe ("Spider Man")
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 7:14:35 am EST from 71.62.204.109

GBishansky> I guess I got a little confused when you said TGC was being ignored. And the video game ROCKED! I'm all with you that TGC was horrible. Maybe it's the fact that it's the same format, and GWeisman doesn't own the show. You know what, the more I think about TGC (and this is about the first time I've thought about it in a long time), the more fuzzy my reasons were/are. So, maybe I have no opinion on whether I think it should be canon or not.

I've been asked a couple times why I bother coming to this page. Although I've been confrontational the last 2 or 3 months, and I regret quite of the few of the things I said, this latest bit concerning Ophelia has actually put my interest in the show at the highest it's been in several years. This is the most I've been thinking about the details of the show in a loooooooooong time. This weekend, I'm actually seriously planning on getting to some of the little projects I've been mulling around in my head for the last few years.
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 5:51:31 am EST from 207.207.40.250

Greg Bishansky>*L* well I wouldnt call the stuff that is non canon crap. Just call it Half-ass ;-P
Shara
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 4:26:47 am EST from 4.246.215.37

L.T. Williams> Oh, and the other two beasts (besides Boudicca) are mates and in 1996, should've had an egg waiting to hatch, I think. I'll have to check my math again.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 3:50:10 am EST from 24.207.163.239

B&CF> "I don't see the beam going through her leg, but rather over her leg"

True, it doesn't go "through" her leg but the laser could be grazing her leg.

But even if it's not touching her leg at all, I would attribute her wounds to the radiant heat coming from the beam, as opposed to the beam itself.

Her arm clearly does not get hit by the beam itself, but she grabs it in pain as soon as she is shot which, to me, can only mean the radiant heat from the beam burned her arm. Since the beam was closer the her leg, whatever damage she sustained on her arm would have been worse on her leg.
Ntripy
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 2:33:09 am EST from 72.232.196.138

Thanks Leo & Matt. Didn't want to bother Greg. (Yeah, I know Ask Greg is closed, but just on principal, I wanted to ask here first. Establish good habits. ;)
L.T. Williams
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 2:27:17 am EST from 71.93.81.240

L.T. Williams> There were 36 Eggs in the Avalon Clan:

17 Males
16 Females
2 Female Beasts
1 Male Beast
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 2:14:09 am EST from 24.207.163.239

L.T. Williams: "Could someone tell me how the Avalon Clan breaks down, males to females and beasts?"

Total eggs in the avalon rookery was 36

I believe greg said there were 3 garg beasts including Boudicca

Angela said she has 15 rookery sisters. so that's 16 females including Angela. Leaving the rest males.

3 Beasts
16 Females
17 Males
Leo
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 2:12:50 am EST from 68.107.155.177

Blaqthourne> I answered this question a few days ago.

Goliath Chronicles is not canon. It falls under the Apocrypha category, along with the Marvel Comic, the Disney Adventures comics, and the Sega Genesis videogame. Greg Weisman doesn't consider any of that crap canon, so, it's not.

Canon is "Awakening Part One" to "Hunter's Moon Part Three", the SLG comic, and Ask Greg material which is "canon in training".

Why do you think we should consider TGC canon? Those episodes were an animated abortion. Besides, we have the creator of the series saying they're not, and with the comic out now, only one can be canon. I'm going with the creator on this, since, well, he's the creator, and his comic doesn't suck.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 1:53:30 am EST from 67.87.175.245

Ok, I'm starting to annoy myself.
I'll just say that no evidence presented has compelled me that it was a blooper (Ntripy> I don't see the beam going through her leg, but rather over her leg). *drops subject*

DTaina> Just so you know, I do think that you have done a great job cleaning up the shots. Looks almost cel-quality.
I've edited things with a paint program before (Paint Shop Pro to be exact), so I'm well aware of how long it takes, which does make me impressed with the time and effort you have put in.

GBishansky> I guess the reason I got the way I got is that I'm viewing it as editing a show that I have loved for so long.
Is TGC being completely ignored, or bundled in with the whatcha-callit, the Apocrypha? I do believe that TGC should be considered canon, possibly in a "Back to the Future II" time-line split kind of way. As for the comics (all three: DA, Marvel, SLG; plus the one that was in TVGuide), I'm still trying to decide. I guess if you include all the comics, you could be compelled to include all those books and other merchandise.

Matt> I say Hudson did what people do when there is an extreme panoramic group photo that requires taking a picture of half the group and then moving the camera (or using a second camera) to take the other half: get in the first picture and then run around the back and get in the second picture.
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Spongebob: "Everyone's a moron except for me." Squidward: "Well, it's true."
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 1:41:14 am EST from 207.207.40.250

Quick question. I once knew this. Could someone tell me how the Avalon Clan breaks down, males to females and beasts? I'm going to search the archives, but if someone just happens to remember...
L.T. Williams
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 1:28:56 am EST from 71.93.81.240

That's the best shot I've seen yet of Ophelia's two toes...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 12:38:46 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Ophelia> Yeah, her model is all over the place in that ep. Here's a screenshot of when she is shot, the laser goes through her wing and gets her in the leg. Also, notice how her arm bandage is skin colored around her hand, bloopers galore :)

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6017/ophelia0cs.png
Ntripy
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 12:15:33 am EST from 72.232.196.138

When Brooklyn time travels, we're not just going to see him disappear and come back. Greg has said several times that we'll go with him on one adventure involving Mary, Finella, the Grimorum and Constantine.

I don't think that'll all fit in one issue... nor am I expecting ANY single issue stories.

Karine said in her LJ that 3, 4 and 5 are a three-part story. So, "Reunion" would not be enough to cram this time travel story in, all in 22 pages.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin
posted @ Thu, Jan 25, 2007 12:04:38 am EST from 67.87.175.245

What sounds good to me is for "Reunion" to be both Brooklyn's return and the Coldtrio's return. The appearance of Brooklyn's family wouldn't be enough to carry a whole issue- there has to be an action plot, as well. And "Reunion" is a thematic title, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are multiple reunions taking place. Sort of like how "Reawakening" involved Coldstone reawakening, but also the metaphorical reawakening of the clan's sense of purpose. There are lots more examples of thematic titles echoing through an episode in multiple ways. I'm not betting I'm right, just saying that I personally think that'd work well.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- that's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 11:58:46 pm EST from 71.226.160.29

Matt: I don't mind that at all. That's why I make the pics, for the fans. It couldn't possibly be stealing anyway, since I don't own them. Besides, it pleases me when fans use the screenshots I've put together. So you go ahead and use all the screenshots you want. Just as long as you don't claim you made them, it's all right with me. :D

I love your second post, the one about the two Hudsons and the Bronx. Really, who's to say it wasn't a blooper? Maybe we can speculate as to why there were two Hudsons there, and why Bronx wasn't on the skiff... ;) Hey, that got me thinking. There were two Morgans in one shot of "Turf," too. Maybe that isn't a blooper either! Maybe he has a twin brother! ;)

Here are the bloopers in question, for your amusement:
http://members.aol.com/bellegarg3/Pans/Kingdom_Bloopers.jpg
http://members.aol.com/bellegarg3/Pans/Brod_Alibi.jpg

Purplegoldfish: Thanks! That's great to hear. :D

Blaqthourne:

"I'm not interested in any info other than what actually appears in the show. I've always had this view."

Then why are you speculating so much if you only consider what's in the show canon? Ophelia got shot in Avalon. That's canon. She didn't have the bandage in Ill Met by Moonlight. That's canon, too. Saying that she could've been injured the night before the Archmage attacked isn't. :P

"Demona shot her through the wing.
This is the earliest that we see Ophelia.
And, she has the bandage in every scene but one in "Avalon"."

1. It hit her arm, too, and her leg. Watch the scene again.
2. And she shouldn't have the bandage.
3. She was uninjured for all of, what, five seconds of screen time? She was injured during most of "Avalon." They used the wrong character model for all of five seconds. They got it right when Gabriel was holding her. :P

Here's something else I caught while watching Avalon: Part II and III. Her bandages kept changing sizes and positions. Sometimes she'll have them on her right arm, sometimes on her left; sometimes she'd have bandages around both her thighs, and sometimes, only on one.

I think it's blatantly obvious that her character model didn't originally have the bandages. If the bandage were a part of her, then it wouldn't be so inconsistent. That's why she didn't have them in Ill Met by Moonlight. They're not part of her design. :P

"My Elisa point was that we know that she should be on crutches because we happened to see her injury. If "Deadly Force" was never aired, this would be the same as the case with Ophelia. No mention of how Elisa was injured was made after "Deadly Force", she only is shown to now keep her gun in a lockbox."

If they said in the episode that she was injured without actually showing the injury, it wouldn't be a blooper. If they drew her on crutches before or after Enter Macbeth, then that would be a blooper. Using the wrong character model for Ophelia for all of five seconds of screen time when she was injured throughout the entire episode is an understandable mistake.

And like I said, I can't actually edit out crutches, so I don't know why you keep bringing this up. :P

"If it was so easy for you to edit out the bandage, what makes you think that an artist using that screenshot for reference wouldn't have the ability to draw her without the bandage as well?"

Editing screenshots and drawing are two very different things. I don't know how you could even compare the two. And easy? Do you have any idea how long it took me to airbrush that bandage away? :P
D. Taina - [<-- Gargoyles Imagery Resource]
"This is a job for the gargoyles!" - Elisa
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 11:52:08 pm EST from 172.147.82.115

As far as Reunion goes, I'm hoping for it to be the Timedancer story (Cause unfortunately my patience level is far lower than the Weird Sisters, LOL). I'm not holding my breath yet, since we're told that The Phoenix Gate doesn't show up until 1997. But then again, Greg has been saying that the Ask Greg answers aren't etched in stone.

Of course, as stated, it could be a Coldtrio story.

My second guess on the other hand is it being the intro for The Ultra-Pack. Because it would be the first time since Grief that the group was together.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 11:39:32 pm EST from 71.115.231.16

Wow, you are all fighting again.
If she appeared with a leg bandaged on one shot and the next one she was without it…that's a blooper, isn't it?
What's all the fuss about?
Demon@ - ["The access code is Jalapeña"]
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 10:33:29 pm EST from 201.235.88.204

Or, the character model doesn't match up with the story-board. It happens.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 10:08:38 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

B&CF
Well here is your proof that the bandage came from the injury inflicted by Demona.
Let's say there was a reason for her to obtain a thigh injury prior to the attack... say oh I don't know... the night before?

Well you know um they had just woken up, the injury would have already healed, and probably due the concrete cure all factor, no need for a bandage.
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 10:04:06 pm EST from 74.129.251.212

Patrick> Just one attack, and that's where the screenshot in question comes from.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 9:45:15 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Didn't the Archmage launch several attacks against the human and gargoyle inhabitants of Avalon before Goliath and company arrived?
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." - Groucho Marx
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 9:43:34 pm EST from 68.76.121.18

HofEyes> Just ask my boyfriend, who is sitting in the same room as me. I laughed out loud for a couple minutes upon reading the beginning of your post. Hilarious.

Anyway, I don't mean any disrespect to B&CF, infact he/she/they got me thinking. Perhaps the "Two Hudsons and a Bronx" scene WASN'T a blooper at all. Since it was never addressed, we can't know for sure that there were not two Hudsons at the Clocktower at the time. In fact, since there is nothing to say there shouldn't be two Hudson's there, calling it a blooper is presumptuous and any attempt to edit out one of the Hudson's would be editing the series! In fact, the GargWiki entry on Hudson should read "During the events of 'Kingdom', there were two Hudsons present at the Clocktower. Why this is so has not been explained by Greg Weisman, but one can assume that perhaps the extra Hudson had arrived in an off screen interaction with the Phoenix Gate."

: )
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 9:38:02 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

*enters with a mug of beer in one hand, munching on a well-done rib from the carcass of the Goliath Chronicles*

Help yourselves, guys. It's still warm.


Okay, onto the serious post:

I just came from looking at Karine's deviantart gallery, and after seeing her clan portraits, I'd have to second Bishansky's "hell yeah."

Something I forgot to mention this morning: I'm pleased to see that Greg is continuing to use as many single-word titles as he can in the comic.

Ed: I guess if we had to rely on Hedgecock, the comic would be bi-annual.

Vaevictus: This was discussed in here at some point (don't remember when), and I think Greg has said that Demona can still get pregnant. For a while, I was under the impression that her transformation would cause her to miscarry, but apparently the child (whatever it is) would come safely to term. Now whether Demona would ever be in a position to get pregnant, there's something open to debate. She doesn't seem to have too many immediate prospects, and also would likely never turn to a human for solace.

Blaqthorne: With the evidence you presented, aren't you contradicting yourself? From what you're saying, you're supporting the bandage being a blooper.

Greg B and Matt: Don't be too hard on him. I hope he sticks around. This is starting to get fun. ( ;


Now where did I put the Tabasco?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"There's a reason we don't let kids vote, or drink, or go to work in the salt mines: they're idiots!" -House, MD
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 8:51:45 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

B&CF> "I will just place the Gargwiki in the same category as any other run-of-the-mill fansite. Just reading through her entry is enough to keep me away from the site. I'm not interested in any info other than what actually appears in the show. I've always had this view."

If you are only interested in the stuff that appears in the show itself, then this is probably not a very good Gargoyles site for you to visit so much. With all the Ask Greg revelations that have happened in here over the years, you must be hating it.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 8:24:24 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Blaqthourne> Considering you don't care about the site, anyway, why are you wasting your time coming down on us over this? I wish I had enough free time in my day to make long winded posts about things I don't care about.

Info in the show? Does that mean you the comic should not be on there? Does it bother you that Goliath Chronicles is being ignored?

God... why do I even bother?
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"On second thought, maybe wounding him isn't such a bad idea afterall." - Dr. Franklin
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 8:07:44 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Greg's a busy boy, from comicscontinuum.com;

"Greg Weisman is the story editor for its new Spider-Man series. Marvel has yet to confirm this appointment."
Ntripy
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 8:01:21 pm EST from 72.232.196.138

Wiki Ophelia> I'm setting aside the "should it be there or not" part. I believe it shouldn't, you have no problem with it. I will just place the Gargwiki in the same category as any other run-of-the-mill fansite. Just reading through her entry is enough to keep me away from the site. I'm not interested in any info other than what actually appears in the show. I've always had this view.

I will, however, challenge you to prove with evidence from the show that the bandage was a blooper.
I've set forth my case:
Demona shot her through the wing.
This is the earliest that we see Ophelia.
And, she has the bandage in every scene but one in "Avalon".

The only reasons I've seen as to why it's a blooper are:
She doesn't have it in "Ill Met By Moonlight"--which is 19 episodes after "Avalon".
She isn't injured until after Demona shoots her--Demona does not hit her leg, it is actually SHOWN in the episode that she hits her wing, not her thigh. She never see her get hit in the leg.

"You're assuming that her leg was wounded before the episode. That's speculation."
You're assuming that her leg was NOT wounded before the episode, before Demona shot her. That, too, is speculation.

My Elisa point was that we know that she should be on crutches because we happened to see her injury. If "Deadly Force" was never aired, this would be the same as the case with Ophelia. No mention of how Elisa was injured was made after "Deadly Force", she only is shown to now keep her gun in a lockbox.

If it was so easy for you to edit out the bandage, what makes you think that an artist using that screenshot for reference wouldn't have the ability to draw her without the bandage as well?
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: Inuyasha TV OST 1
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 7:45:13 pm EST from 207.207.40.250

<<That wouldn't be kidnapping. That would be recovering HER child. She can be insane, Goliath can hate what she does, but she laid the egg after all. Goliath would be kidnapping the hatchling in that case.>>

Good point there.
Although I still don't want to see Demona raise any children. And I do wonder if she'll try to get at Nashville and Tachi.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 7:15:14 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

I think now that they changed artists they will probally have the comic out on time. I saw the new artist sketching at the gathering one year love her stuff haha.
Shara
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 7:10:35 pm EST from 4.245.120.205

Although it's great to hear the comic is progressing, I do feel just a tad underwhelmed by the latest update. I'm fine with fill-ins in principle as a way to move the comic forward, but three guest slots in a row starting in the middle of what I assume is a multi-issue story risks making the comic feel quite choppy when read serially. Maybe it'll all make sense when the issues are released.

The titles themselves are okay. I had to remind myself that "The Edge", "Monsters" and "Turf" didn't give a lot away either, and "The Green", " it's just that I've had over a decade to get used to them and I associate them with their content. Still, "Bash" and "The Rock" make me think of wrestling, if not the Bash Street Kids. It'll be funny to look back once we find out what this is about. I love that, despite the revelations of Ask Greg, a lot of the comic has been kept quite effectively under wraps.

Title Spec: if "Bash" refers to the Hallowe'en bash, maybe "Reunion" will still refer to the same story -- the information released for #4 alluded to the clan being split up.
Ed
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 7:09:49 pm EST from 213.187.39.245

Greg B> Another good thought. As long as this first arc of Season 3 doesn't end with the gargoyles saving a train and everyone bowing down and worshipping them, I'm happy.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 6:32:14 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I suspect "Clan Building" will end with the arrival of the older Brooklyn, Katana, Nashville, Fu-Dog and Tachi's egg.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 6:28:27 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Vaevictis> Although Demona is immortal and unaging, we can't be sure she can still conceive. Gargoyles conceive only at specific ages.
Greg has several answers for this question. Once is that Demona IS fertile. She is fertile as a human during the day and as a gargoyles during the night. He has also said that she could miscarry the babe for her daily transformation or that the spell would compensate somehow. The baby could turn from human to gargoyle and from garg to human along with her.
"If Goliath somehow managed to get a hold of the egg and hatch it in his clan, Demona would probably try to kidnap it"
That wouldn't be kidnapping. That would be recovering HER child. She can be insane, Goliath can hate what she does, but she laid the egg after all. Goliath would be kidnapping the hatchling in that case.

Poor Demona! It may good for her to get pregnant and have someone who shown her love and for her to give her love without barriers of ideals or words.
But I agree with Matt, there are a lot of factors in the middle of Demona and a pregnancy. Fertility cycle, no mate available and probably her own will. Demona is in the middle of a war (or so she thinks). She can't be a mother right now. She has to be a warrior, nothing else.
Demon@ - [I have my own genocidal plans: "Mosquitoes are our enemies Goliath, you should have learnt that a millennium ago"]
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 6:27:21 pm EST from 201.235.88.204

Vaevictis> Whether or not Demona could get pregnant (and how her changing back and forth would affect the fetus) isn't really an issue (yet) because there is no way shes gotten pregnant. She obviously hasn't been messing aroun with any human males lately, and female gargoyles would not be able to conceive until the fall of 2007. Anyway, I think Greg has said that Demona could get pregnant. *shrugs*

Greg B> Good thought about the Coldtrio returning in "Reunion". Hadn't though of that, though it seems likely. Having Coldstone and Coldfire return would also fit in with the "Clan-Building" theme.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 4:17:45 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I think I've been posting here on and off for a little under two years. I've bee lurking here much longer though.

DTaina: I for one greatly appreciate all the hard work and
dedication you put into your screenshots. They're beautiful and very helpful. Keep up the good work! :)

So we got the names of upcoming issues. "Bash" and "The Rock" are pretty strange names, I wonder what those are about. And I think "Reunion" can mean any number of things-but all I'm really thinking about now is #3 being released.

If the comic was supposed to come out in February, shouldn't we have a date by now? January is almost over...Too bad Greg didn't say anything about that. Well,I wouldn't be surprised if there was another delay *sigh*
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"We're sitting dorks here!" - Broadway
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 3:04:22 pm EST from 64.12.116.8

<<"What if Demona got pregnant?">>

Although Demona is immortal and unaging, we can't be sure she can still conceive. Gargoyles conceive only at specific ages.

We also don't know if Puck's spell takes pregnancy into account. What would happen to the egg during the day? Would it turn into a human fetus, or turn to stone? What would happen in the spring? An egg that big probably cannot fit in a human uterus.

If Demona did lay an egg, I'm sure she would try as hard as she could to keep it secret from Goliath and his clan, even hiding from him once the pregnancy showed. She would probably keep her rookery in her New York mansion, or in one of the Nightstone holdings, maybe in Paris. She'd want to raise the child as a disciple of her genocidal craziness, and keep it away from Goliath's influence as long as possible.
When Thailog left her, if there had been an egg, he might have taken it with him. It might be useful to raise it as a totally loyal flunky, or to hold it for ransome since Demona is rich. On the off chance she didn't want to pay some exorbitant price, he might try to sell it to Sevarius or Xanatos.
If Goliath somehow managed to get a hold of the egg and hatch it in his clan, Demona would probably try to kidnap it. Come to think of it, once the Manhattan clan is back at the Eyrie building, I wonder if Demona will try to kidnap Nashville or Tachi. I'm sure she'd love to have some impressionable young children to indoctrinate. *shudder*
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 2:20:36 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

"Reunion" could be a return of the Cold Trio. Greg said a while back to expect them to appear soon.

Maybe it's that Coldsteel/Coyote 5.0 story.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 2:17:46 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

OMG, if Reunion (or any of the upcoming comics) feature any of the Mayan gargoyles I'll go crazy nuts. I LOVE the Mayan Clan. I'd love to see any of them in the comic. Honestly though, I wonder if perhaps it is too early to bring in such obscure characters. Well, if Greg has a plan to bring them into an Issue, I'm thrilled. Another possible reunion: Bronx and Boudicca.

DTaina> Yes, I am aware of your site. In fact, I used it for the picture on "Demona's Clan" on Wiki, and it is probably my favorite picture of the ones I've added to the site.

Oh, and this goes to Lynati and DTaina: I've used pics from both your imagery sites on GargWiki. I probably should've asked before I did so, but I didn't, but is that alright? I have absolutly no idea how to pull pics from tv or DVD online, so I have to rely on others. I hope that is alright with you. I wasn't meaning to steal or anything. I'm not sure of the cyber-etiqutte in these matters.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 2:09:57 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

A few more requests for answering:

Question received on Wed, June 28, 2006 12:16:42 PM
Anonymous writes...

I understand there is some doubt as to weather the season 2 volume 2 Gargoyles dvd will be released. What can be done to ensure this release and when will we know if it will be relesed?

Question received on Thu, June 29, 2006 09:41:49 PM
Tom C writes...

What inspired you to write Gargoyles.

Now for some speculation about what titles mean.

Reunion - possibly Jade & Turquesa returning to Manhattan to pick the Mayan Sun Amulet or it could be that Brooklyn 'disappeared' at the end of Bash and reappears in this episode. On the other hand,

From Ask Greg, July 2001
My current thinking is that Brooklyn vanishes in 1997.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 1:22:49 pm EST from 71.30.133.165

I think if artists are referencing the wiki, it makes sense to edit things that we KNOW are bloopers. I'm not sure that the leg bandage is a blooper, although I think it probably is.
Perhaps the wiki should have a disclaimer that the image is edited to remove a blooper, with a link to the original on your website.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 1:18:38 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Harvester: "Do you have a link to any of Karine's artwork?"

Karine has a Deviant Art page at http://kanthara.deviantart.com/
She also has a web site, but the link I have is out of date.

---
Blaqthorne: "Maybe I'm a purist and want to see it presented as it truly was, blemishes and all--I want to see the wingless Broadway, I like the near-Super-Deformed versions of characters that occasionally pop up"

That's okay for a "screenshot archive". But in the case of the wiki, the idea is to have the image that best represent the character. And if the "money" shot happens to have a minor error, there's a benefit to correcting it. ;)
Leo
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 1:10:26 pm EST from 68.107.155.177

Blaqthourne: ""Ill Met By Moonlight" occured well after "Avalon". If, as I make the case, the damage came the night previous to the Archmage's attack, the wound would most definitely be healed, thus not needing the bandage. So, I don't see how her not having the bandage in "Ill Met..." is proof that her having a bandage in "Avalon" is a blooper."

You're assuming that her leg was wounded before the episode. That's speculation. In the show, she wasn't injured until Demona shot her. The bandage came later, when Katharine and the Magus took care of the injured. The fact that the bandage isn't there in "Ill Met by Moonlight" proves my point. They used the wrong character model in that flashback. It happens.

"Elisa wasn't on crutches in "The Mirror", so her being on crutches in "Enter Macbeth" must be a blooper.""

She was supposed to be injured in Enter Macbeth. We saw it happen. Besides, crutches would be impossible to edit out. I'd have to paint in the background that's behind the crutches, and then redraw Elisa so that she's standing straight. Then I'd really be editing the show for no reason. I could do it, but I wouldn't dare. I respect the show too much for that.

Editing out bloopers is different. I don't see anything wrong with that. It's like calling for retakes, only I'm using screenshots instead of the original cells, and I always try to keep the edits to a minimum. The show had beautiful art; even when the animation was lacking, the background art was still beautiful. If I can help preserve the memory of the show, and not highlight all the flaws I've seen that I wish I'd never found out, then I've done my job. :P

Matt: Thanks for the kind words. It's nice to know my work is appreciated! It makes me happy when people can't tell I had to edit part of a picture. The prosthetic foot is one of the edits I'm most proud of. ;) There are hundreds more of those pictures on my site, if you're curious. :D
D. Taina - [<-- Gargoyles Imagery Resource]
"This is a job for the gargoyles!" - Elisa
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 12:40:15 pm EST from 172.164.66.84

Re King Arthur being "the greatest warrior" of all time: from the perspective of the Arthurian cycle, that honor would actually have fallen to Sir Lancelot, and his son Galahad. Arthur was still portrayed as an effective warrior, however - just not on the same scale as Lancelot.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 7:39:39 am EST from 4.244.208.38

Vaevictus: <*Macbeth marries some random woman that he's known only a few days. The guy must be really desperate! Also, he's never spent a romantic evening with her until the wedding night.> They were allies for a while. I'm sure Dominique knew just what to say.

One of the things I loved about this episode was Demona's look in the third act (aside from the brow ridge being painted gold). It's like she's got a Bride of Satan thing going.

Interesting point about Macbeth subconsciously desiring life. It sort of reminds me of Demona choosing that particular code in "City of Stone." The subconscious mind says one thing, the conscious mind another.


*dips into "Ask Greg" for a second.*

Exciting news, indeed. ( :

Greg B: Do you have a link to any of Karine's artwork? I'd like to check some out.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"There's a reason we don't let kids vote, or drink, or go to work in the salt mines: they're idiots!" -House, MD
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 6:57:47 am EST from 71.62.204.109

I can see both sides. If that picture of Ophelia is the best shot to represent her character (and I agree it is), then I don't have a problem with the edit. I wouldn't want a shot where a character appeared injured unless the injury was permanent. In other words, I wouldn't want to see a picture of Jeffrey Robins edited so that he wasn't blind.

On the other hand, if people are using these images as a reference, there probably should be some disclaimer under the picture stating that it's edited and maybe a link to the unedited image.

Also, the Gargwiki is a great resource thanks to all those who have contributed their time and effort, thank you all.
Ntripy
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 5:47:02 am EST from 72.232.196.138

Ophelia screenshot> Granted, if I hadn't looked at the screenshots I took of her back in the day (which include the exact same scene sans Demona with (in my case) two shots "stitched" together), I probably wouldn't have noticed this.
There are two major points to my previous post:
1) Your (D. Taina) edit is not just merely a touch-up, but akin (and I hazard using this word, but I can't think of a better word) to censoring.
Great, now I'm going to be accused of saying touching up an image is the same as censoring :P
2) I don't believe that it was a blooper (reread my previous post where I put forth my case based on the evidence in the show). I believe I mentioned that Demona shot her through the wing. I also believe I said that she DOESN'T have the bandage in only one scene (she's in at least 6 scenes in "Avalon").

"Ill Met By Moonlight" occured well after "Avalon". If, as I make the case, the damage came the night previous to the Archmage's attack, the wound would most definitely be healed, thus not needing the bandage. So, I don't see how her not having the bandage in "Ill Met..." is proof that her having a bandage in "Avalon" is a blooper. That would be like saying that Elisa wasn't on crutches in "The Mirror", so her being on crutches in "Enter Macbeth" must be a blooper.

Maybe I'm a purist and want to see it presented as it truly was, blemishes and all--I want to see the wingless Broadway, I like the near-Super-Deformed versions of characters that occasionally pop up, I want to be able to easily predict the exact pattern of destruction Goliath will do to the brick wall in Macbeth's castle :P
Maybe I think that the best available unedited version should be alongside a brushed up version.

"It pains me when people don't seem to appreciate all the effort I put into these things." Please reread the last sentence of my previous post.

Please don't take it personally. I would be criticizing anyone who did that. You just happened to be the person who did this particular one that I happened to see.

If it really bothered me that much, since it's a Wiki, I could easily go and post the same shot but unedited, could I not? :D

I hope some of the things I said convey that I really don't think this is all that important.
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
"This chick is HOT." --Space Ghost--Esurance ad
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 4:50:41 am EST from 63.20.37.220

DK2> The original version of "The Journey" was very heavily a Goliath/Elisa story as well. Yes, they are both the leads, but rest assured, Greg isn't forgetting about the rest of the cast. They'll get their focus soon enough.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 2:53:13 am EST from 67.87.175.245

Answering these recent posts:
1)<I thought the new Gargoyles comic was going to be original stories. Why does it read like an adaptation of the first episode of the Goliath Chronicles?>
2)<And a "Why is the comic a rehash of the Journey?" question. Greg's probably already answered that one, too.>

Greg thought it was best that the new Gargoyles comic started off with an introductory type story to new readers and also to the series' fans. Yes to those who're familiar with the 3rd seasons start it adapts "The Journey" episode (which I didn't know until this fansite). From then on the rest of the 3rd season to Greg doesn't count as continuity or canon stories. He's pretty much dumping the series when he was no longer involved. And he's now telling the stories after the final episode he was involved with. To me it was an ok start and nice beginning. I've never seen the series from after the halfway mark of the 2nd season. Thats when I'd kind of stopped watching it (more like forgot about it). I never knew what happened then on and the two dvd sets so far have revived my interest again and for the rest of the series' dvd sets. So the new comic is a blessing as how it started as well. I can only imagine what "the Journey" episode and what the rest of the series episodes would be like. Is the 3rd season "Goliath Chronicles" really that bad or not? The only thing that upset me from the cartoon and so far the 2 part Journey comic adaptation was the use of the other Gargoyles. The core of the series was the clan/family entourage of the gargoyles characters and their survival, but also the Goliath and Elisa relationship. But to me the emphasis on the latter sometimes totally has the other characters absent. And I really hope the comic doesn't stray from the others too often. I mean theres also Xanatos, Demona and Macbeth etc. But I'd really like the clan to be together more often. Any thoughts on this?
DK2
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 2:46:05 am EST from 24.70.95.203

After looking at the Delilah and Ophelia before and after shots (not to mention all the other beautiful shots on GargWiki, I have to give DTaina a huge round of applause.

*Claps for an appropriate amount of time...*

Seriously, I've added pictures here and there on the site, but I also wish my pics were as nice and clear as the ones DTaina brings to the site. I hope she continues her work there, as it definitly enhances the site. I've looked at both the Delilah and Ophelia pages many times and never suspected the edits. I think in both these cases the edits were reasonable. It is not like DTaina was attempting to change the content of the series or add her own touch or something. The fact that the edits she has made are so unnoticeable gives credit to the fact that DTaina is working to keep the art of the series neat, accurate, and intact (left foot and all).
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 2:40:07 am EST from 24.207.163.239

I've been posting here since late 1998, early 1999, I believe. Now, back to the issue at hand. :P

Greg X: Thanks for backing me up. I'm glad someone understands why I edit out the bloopers.

Blaqthourne: Demona hadn't shot her yet in the image you're criticizing. She shoots her in the very next shot. And I believe it's a blooper because she doesn't have any bandages in Ill Met by Moonlight. They must've used the wrong character model. And anyway, she just hadn't shot her yet. Notice Demona aiming? :P

I honestly don't understand why this bothers you so much. Have you seen the Delilah screenshot that's posted on the site? She originally didn't have a left foot, not because of a blooper, but because it panned too quickly. That had to be drawn in. Otherwise, she would be standing on one foot, and that would ruin the only great shot of Delilah in the whole series. But don't take my word for it...
http://members.aol.com/DTaina/Imagery/Random/Delilah.jpg

Every screenshot I've made has required a little touching up. Editing out a little grain, fixing a tiny coloring error like Thailog's ear being the same color as his armor, or drawing in Goliath's wing membranes that were somehow left out, or even adding a missing foot. Is it wrong? I don't know. I've been debating that for quite some time. Does it make me feel good to see the errors gone? Yeah, I won't deny that seeing Ophelia with a bandage that wasn't supposed to be there always drove me nuts and that it made me feel good to edit it out. But that's why I don't get paid for this. ;)

Really, I think you misunderstand my intentions. I'm not out to fix every single blooper in the show. That would be stupid. I'm only fixing the errors that come up on the pans I put together, and trust me, there's a lot of those. :P A lot of people use my pictures for reference, and I honestly want people to remember the greatness of the show and not all the little bloopers that you wouldn't notice anyway unless you scrutinized these things.

"Much like the appearance of the Magus on the beach after his death, the "wrong" ending to "Vows", the Hudson clone (not Burbank), and others; bloopers are a part of the show that I don't believe WE have the right to "fix"."

I wouldn't erase a character that wasn't supposed to be there. It would be wrong and I'd need a clear shot of the background anyway. I don't usually edit out characters. If it's possible, yeah, but only because I'm very interested in revealing the beautiful background art that's usually hidden by all the characters.

And the "right to fix"? When did I say I had the right to fix anything? This is just a hobby of mine, I don't get paid for it, and I like to think that I'm doing something good for the fandom. It pains me when people don't seem to appreciate all the effort I put into these things. Some of these take days to put together, you know. Why are you criticizing me? :P
D. Taina - [<-- Gargoyles Imagery Resource]
"This is a job for the gargoyles!" - Elisa
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 2:12:03 am EST from 172.163.94.59

By the way anyone in california in here who ios going to anime LA. If so would anyone want to help me support the fandom at that con?
Shara
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 1:21:35 am EST from 4.246.208.170

Jumps for joy that the comic is getting a pencilist from the fandom.

Wonders why they didnt hire someone from the fandom in the first place?????
Shara
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 1:17:27 am EST from 4.246.208.170

Blaqthourne> Taina and I actually discussed this. The wiki is supposed to be all encompassing, and the ultimate reference site. That is one of the best shots of Ophelia in the series, and I think if there is an error that's easy to fix, that's fine.

And I like that excellent shots have "mistakes" fixed for the purposes of this (and make no mistake, that was a blooper), especially since I know for a fact that some of the comic book artists have been using the wiki for reference material.

Sorry you don't like it, but, we're going with the best shots we can find, and if that includes a little touching up, so be it.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey"
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 1:09:25 am EST from 67.87.175.245

I'm not a student of Arthurian legend, so I'll ask: Was King Arthur ever made out to be "the greatest warrior that ever lived"?

Matt> I kinda figured that might be what you meant.

D. Taina> This ended up tuning into a lengthy post.
Ah, but there's a big difference. Editing out the Jetix (or Toon Disney, USA, FOX, etc.) logo is not the same as editing out the bandage. By removing the Jetix logo, you're just removing something that the station ADDED to the image. By removing the bandage, you're actually changing the content of the image, actually altering the work of the artists who created the image. Regardless of whether or not it was a blooper, that is the way it appears in the show, and since the Gargwiki is supposed to be a source of accurate info, the image posted is inaccurate and should not be there.
As for it being a blooper, how can you be so sure? The bandage that she has on her right forearm in the makeshift infirmary does not appear in that scene. The scene in question is the earliest (timeline-wise) that we see her in the show. The scene appears to happen shortly after they awaken. It's quite possible that she could have been injured the previous day in training exercises and hadn't had time to remove the bandage before the attack. If anything would be a blooper, it would be the lack of a bandage on her thigh as they regroup around Tom (she still doesn't have the bandage around her forearm, either--when exactly did she suffer that damage?). Demona actually shot her through her left wing, so I would say that the thigh bandage should most definately be there.
When Demona attacks the castle (Part III), Ophelia has a white band around each thigh (perhaps she should have had both bandages all along?) which remain for the rest of the episode, no bandage around the right forearm (maybe her wound was superficial, or had healed sufficiantly to not need the bandage, between the first infirmary scene and this scene), and laser damage to her left wing. As she slides to the wall, each thigh band appears to gain a loop, making them appear more like bandages. Incidentally, her wings seem to gain a split at the end of the bone that runs along the edge of the wings.

I'm sorry, but I respectfully disagree with your posting of your edited screenshot to the Gargwiki.
Much like the appearance of the Magus on the beach after his death, the "wrong" ending to "Vows", the Hudson clone (not Burbank), and others; bloopers are a part of the show that I don't believe WE have the right to "fix".

I haven't really spent much time at the Gargwiki (this was my first trip there, actually), but even though I haven't been there much, I do appreciate for the other visitors that you have taken the time and effort to post the images.
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
posted @ Wed, Jan 24, 2007 12:57:24 am EST from 63.20.80.82

Yeah, I'm loving that we are hearing so much info right now. Exciting. Why do I get the feeling that #6 "Reunion" will feature Brook's Timedance? Anyway, cool info. And all issue through #9 take place in 1996. Cool.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 11:22:38 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I love the fact that we got titles for som many issues!! Thanks Greg!!
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
Pheon
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 10:28:23 pm EST from 157.242.221.25

Check out Ask Greg for an update on the comic.
Greg Weisman
"How could I not believe in animism? Every time I get on my bathroom scale, proof is there before my eyes of the sentience (and perversity) of all things."
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 9:35:40 pm EST from 64.14.248.62

Harvester of Eyes> I literally JUST watched Dogs this morning for the first time. I totally get your reference!

I've been comming here since AT LEAST 1997, off an on. I remember when they had audio files and a blue print of castle Wyvern. I remember when ASK GREG was one LONG, LONE, LONG page of green text. I used to be Brooklyn X, Talon X, and finally Battle Beast.

The only people I really remember are Jag, Raptor Something, Vash, Gore, JEB, and if I heard some names, I could tell you more.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 9:31:57 pm EST from 142.59.179.178

Karine as penciler = happy dance! Congrats, Karine!
Asatira
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 9:25:20 pm EST from 68.190.60.15

Kanthara will be drawing the interior of #5? How long will Hedgecock be around? All the way through #4?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 9:06:31 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

And on a very cool note, Karine just announced this in her LJ:

Issue 5 of the Gargoyles comic will be drawn by fandom's own Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois.

Can we get a resounding "Hell yeah!"

::Goes to watch the President talk::
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 9:00:00 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

DPH> While I still don't trust SLG to keep to scheduals, it not being on the pre-order page is no reason to panic. Comics listed as coming out next month are not listed there either.

I just asked a much more specific question. We'll see.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 8:36:11 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Don't read this if you're the type to go paranoid.

**gargoyles comic paranoia spoilers**

Exhibit A: http://www.slgcomic.com/info-exec/display/shipping - upcoming releases page

Exhibit B: http://www.slgcomic.com/category-exec/category_id/23/nm/Upcoming_Stuff_Preorders pre-order page

Exhibit C: http://slg-news.livejournal.com/165473.html - a response to a question I posted to the slg blog

Notice that Exhibit A does not have a release date for gargoyles comic #3. Exhibit B shows what you can pre-order. Now, if you compare the stuff that you can pre-order on Exhibit B with the corresponding release date on Exhibit A, you will notice they are letting people pre-order stuff that has a release date of April 2007. Now, keep that mind, and look at Exhibit C.

Quote from myself on Exhibit C:
Is there any chance of adding gargoyles comic issue #3 and gargoyles comic issue #4 to that list of things we can pre-order?

Response to my inquiry:
It's a bit early to add those--perhaps when it comes a bit closer to when they'll be published.

You decide what's the deal: The slg website will let you pre-order some stuff for April 2007, but it's too early to pre-order for gargoyles comic #3.

I don't like the logical conclusion that these exhibits seem to point towards.
**end gargoyles comic paranoia spoilers**
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 7:59:41 pm EST from 71.30.133.165

I like "Sanctuary", and even watch it each year on Valentine's Day. (Pity that it'll have to be on my old tapes; they just don't feel the same after having the first one and a half seasons on DVD with a clearer picture, no commercials, and the ability to go straight to an individual episode. I've been spoiled.)

I still cringe at Elisa's "This is a job for the gargoyles" line, though.

One scene that I find particularly interesting is Macbeth starting to explain to Dominique about the things about him that (he thinks) she does not know. I can't help thinking that he's going to have it all the more difficult: not only does he have to tell her that he's really a 900-year-old former King of Scotland, but he'll also be facing the fact that more likely than not, her mental image of Macbeth is going to come entirely from the Shakespeare play - which means a lot of additional explaining about what really happened. Though the revelation of his bride's true identity renders all that moot.

I also still think that Demona's French accent is hopelessly hokey (though I wouldn't recommend telling her that to her face).
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 7:18:00 pm EST from 4.245.21.134

I've been here since soon after the show aired. So a little under 12 years :) I am not a frequent visitor, though I lurk in spurts. I post when I feel I have nothing important to add, but otherwise, I don't. Only recently have I started posting here more then usual.
Siren - [Click my name for my music videos!]
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 6:03:01 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

Random Thought: I know Thailog had no intention of keeping Demona around until the Fall Equinox of 2007, but wouldn't it have been interesting if Demona had gotten pregnant?

Which leads to another random thought: The Fall Equinox this year will be the time that Angela and Broadway will first conceive! Angela will lay the egg near the Spring Equinox of next year and Artus will hatch on the Spring Equinox of 2018.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 5:19:06 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Oops, I mean Thailog's line that I liked was "You and what clan?"
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 5:03:26 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Sanctuary:

I had no clue going into this, what the episode was about. No spoilers. That always make it more fun.

*The moment I saw that woman with Macbeth I knew it must be Demona. I wonder if it was supposed to be a surprise, but I doubt it. He says he feels like he's known her all his life, and there were other hints as well.
*I like some of Thailog's lines. "You and what army?" is a good one. Also "Teamwork is so overrated."
*Goliath tries to warn Thailog that Demona is using her... but he is using both her and Macbeth. Does Demona really love him? I think maybe she does, or thinks she does. She hopes he is the Goliath she always wanted, instead of the sentimental namby-pamby she's got. But she also hopes he'll be an ally against humanity. Maybe she figures if he gets uppity she can kill him and keep the company fortune.
*Macbeth marries some random woman that he's known only a few days. The guy must be really desperate! Also, he's never spent a romantic evening with her until the wedding night.
*Thailog doesn't seem hateful toward Goliath. He's more just randomly destructive.
*I liked the point where Thailog slept among the Notre Dame sculptures.
*Elisa's comment about "The most romantic city in the world" and Goliath's sideways look at her in the end.
*Elisa just leaves the gargoyles sitting there during the day. Isn't that...um... rather dangerous for them at ground level?
*Elisa talking to herself, out loud, in the restaurant was awkward.
*Thailog's comment about Angela was kind of disturbing.

I feel sad for Macbeth. Goliath tries to cheer him up, but "she" is not "out there." "She" is 900 years dead. And if he does find Mrs. Right again, she will die. And he'll be alone again. It really is sad.
The way they fight is very interesting. Demona throws a huge changelier-thing at him and he ducks. He shoots her (and he has terrible aim) and she ducks. Both try to kill each other but avoid getting hit themselves. Is it because they both look down on suicide? Do they think whoever gets in the fatal shot "wins"? Is it pure instinct? Demona is maybe just in a psychotic state of rage when she attacks, but Macbeth wants to die, or thinks he does. Maybe subconsciously, he's not as suicidal as he thinks?

Goliath is trying so hard to protect Angela. It is kind of ironic, that if she had been raised by her parents and clan, the entire issue wouldn't matter because she wouldn't care. It is only because she was raised by humans. But of course, that makes her situation easy to understand for us human viewers. Granted that she hasn't seen much of Demona, but I think she can tell that even under her own free will, that Demona is bad news.
Maybe Goliath is also afraid what Demona will do if she finds out.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 5:00:48 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

I've been posting for, what was it? 2 years? 3?

I don't even remember when my 1st post was now...
KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 4:16:59 pm EST from 69.95.91.73

i have been posting here since...uh...2 MONTHS AGO Viva yo!!
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 12:08:14 pm EST from 201.235.88.204

I believe I started posting in 2000. I've been eratic in posting up until last year. I started in the room as Emmlei, then switched over to my main online alias last year. I took a break for a couple years before 2005-6 for a number of reasons. Then somehow came back.
Asatira
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 11:40:35 am EST from 131.204.216.245

I started lurking here once I got something more than freenet access in early 1997 - kinda reluctant to post anything. Same goes for IRC chat once I figured out how to use that. This place was such a good first experience communicating on the net. Little did I know how long and far it would take me and the people I'd meet as a result of it. Kudos to Gore(we often don't give him enough credit for keeping this place alive) and of course to Greg.
Wingless
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 11:34:04 am EST from 74.105.128.170

I started posting in December of 2000, I think...

Anyway, Ophelia's wings> I meant odd way in that their structure is weird. Not only does she only have two "fingers" and one long "finger" supporting the wing, but the wing membrane has all sorts of points on it, they don't seem regular and structured, they seem more random. Take a look at the link DTaina just put up and see the difference between Demona's wings and Ophelia's wings to see kinda what I'm talking about.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 8:35:14 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Blaqthourne: Why bother editing a screenshot, you ask? Tell that to the 500 plus images I've put together and all those blasted Jetix logos I've edited out for the Wiki. ;) Anyway, the original screenshot did have the bandage, but it was a blooper. She didn't have the bandage until after Demona shot her. She didn't have it in Ill Met by Moonlight either. The series is full of little bloopers that usually go unnoticed, and sometimes, if I find them in the images I'm putting together, I'll fix them. :P

If you want to see the image with the bandage, go here:
http://members.aol.com/DTaina/Imagery/Random/Ophelia.jpg

Hope you like it. :P
D. Taina - [<-- Gargoyles Imagery Resource]
"This is a job for the gargoyles!" - Elisa
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 8:12:40 am EST from 172.146.115.44

Ntripy> But why bother actually editing a screenshot? Maybe Ophelia's sentimental about that bandage. And here Dtaina has gone and just willy-nilly decided to brush an important part of her away with some newfangled, fancy-shmancy paint program :P
Her right arm may be bandaged, but you can't see it in that shot.
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 6:43:15 am EST from 63.20.91.0

The magic of photoshop :) btw, her right arm is also bandaged, I guess she had some training mishaps.
Ntripy
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 2:18:17 am EST from 72.232.196.138

Sorry for the 2x post.
I just looked at the Ophelia page on the Gargwiki, and something seemed off. The Ophelia image doesn't have a bandage around her thigh. It's there on the DVD and on the screenshot I took of that same scene back in '98.
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Lot/2284/sh3507-8b.jpg
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: Famicom 20th Anniv. OST's Vol. 3
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 2:03:17 am EST from 63.20.63.56

I remember for sure posting in this room back in... 10th grade, I think, which would have been late 1997 or early 1998. I'm not sure how long before that I started posting. Of course, I used a different screenname back then (OnyxStar); when I got older I started using a less melodramatic name ;)
Kaylle - [kaylle at ladyavalon dot com]
GargoylesDVD.com
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 1:24:54 am EST from 66.31.44.143

Ed> Thanks.

Just out of curiosity, anyone know how long Gore has had this CR up for? I'm sure he's mentioned it before.

Ophelia's wings> Had to bust out the DVDs. She may be the only current gargoyle with 2 fingers, but that design has been used for others. The random gargoyle that resembles Brooklyn in Awakening: Part One (4:51 into the ep according to the DVD) has 2 fingers on the wings.

Matt> How do you mean by "odd way"?

On Avalon III> Wow, those three archers are bad shots. In the words of Mushu: "You missed! How could you miss?! {S}he was three feet in front of you!!"
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: Famicom 20th Anniv. OST's Vol. 2
posted @ Tue, Jan 23, 2007 1:21:54 am EST from 63.20.63.56

Yum, roasted marshmallows. ;-)

Golem > Thanks for your comments and thoughtful quesions on this episode, VA. Unfortunately, I think I only saw it once or twice, and I don't have it on tape, so my memory of it is pretty vague.

I found an old post I made here in 2003; like Ed, it survived, time stamp and all, elsewhere on my computer. I'm a rather sporadic poster (and relatively new compared to many of you) - and I enjoy the insight into the show all of you have to offer. (I never saw "Gargoyles" during its original run, but was introduced to it by a friend early in 1997. Fortunately I was able to get many of the episodes on tape).
Abby
"Boy, the city sure is different when it snows." "Yeah. It's colder." - "The Price"
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 11:54:01 pm EST from 24.118.226.247

Damn straight HoE!!!

God Bless ya!
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 11:42:43 pm EST from 74.129.251.212

I've been here since November of 1996. That's nearly a third of my life. Where does the time go?

151 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." - Groucho Marx
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 11:13:05 pm EST from 64.232.25.145

<I thought the new Gargoyles comic was going to be original stories. Why does it read like an adaptation of the first episode of the Goliath Chronicles?>

Next month, the Goliath Chronicles (or twelve of them, anyway) will be but a nightmare memory.

*slices the ear off the other 12 Goliath Chronicles, then pours gas on it and throws on a match. Steps back and puts on a pair of sunglasses.*

So, anyone bring the marshmallows?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I'm hungry. Let's get a taco." -Mr. White.
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 8:59:51 pm EST from 71.62.204.109

Todd - There are a couple of more questions that you could quote answers for that would be nice:


Ruthann writes...

Do you know if the second half of the second season is coming out? I have looked for any news but have found nothing re it.


and


Gregg Williams writes...

Hi,
I was just reading here that there may be the possibility of S2P2 not being released? Is this true? I hope not. I have my own site which I will advertise the heck out of the new comic as well as links for the DVD's to help.

Best wishes,
-Gregg
www.freewebs.com/sodawilly


and


Anonymous writes...

I thought the new Gargoyles comic was going to be original stories. Why does it read like an adaptation of the first episode of the Goliath Chronicles?

and


Anonymous writes...

I understand there is some doubt as to weather the season 2 volume 2 Gargoyles dvd will be released. What can be done to ensure this release and when will we know if it will be relesed?

The 1st 3 questions I mentioned are in the bottom 10 of the pile so it would be helpfull to get to them tonight.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 8:46:42 pm EST from 71.30.133.165

I said etc. ;) Although I don't recall you posting during the period I first posted. I think you'd posted before and obviously after. But this is such a long time ago. I happen to know my first post was 5 January 1998. I wrote my first post in a separate document and came across it a few years later, datestamped and all. I'd visited the room before on and off for a while though. So it'll be a decade for me next January.
Ed
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 8:16:40 pm EST from 213.187.39.245

ED> What am I, chopped liver? Been here since 1997 ;)

And yeah, I'm an old timer, I recognise some of the names you mentioned Ed. I believe Desdemona popped up in here briefly about a year ago. Some come, some go, some are constant.

Which makes me realise something. I don't remember the exact date that I first started posting, but I know it was the beginning of 1997. Some of you, I have now known for a decade. Don't mean to get sentimental, but I think that's kinda cool.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 8:10:11 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

I'm glad Blaqthorne keeps coming by. It's nice that there's a continuity of the people in the room -- Blaise, Todd, Blaqthorne etc. I sometimes wonder what happened to the other people who were in the room when I started visiting. There are people I haven't seen around in five or more years: Desdemona, Clan Whiptail, Thaylog, Queen Tanika etc.
Ed
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 7:47:48 pm EST from 213.187.39.245

DEMON@ - Nope, I'm not.

JURGAN - Thanks for the warning.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 7:27:54 pm EST from 4.244.18.177

Ophelia's wings> Her wings are very distinct. They have only two claws at the wrist point (as opposed to the usual one or three in Wyvern gargs) and the skin of the wing also leads away from the ribbing in an odd way. The major distinction that makes her wings unique though is the two claws at the wrist point. I can't think of any other gargoyles world-wide with wings like hers.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 6:38:14 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

While looking at the Wiki I saw this statement about Ophelia: "She also has a distinct wing structure seen on no other gargoyle in the series"

I don't really see what this refers to. Ophelia seems to have fairly average bat-like wings without any unusual features that I can see. The Gargoyle with the most unusual wings, in my opinion, is Coldfire.


I watched Golem. I can't really comment on the animation anymore, since the pirated files make it kind of pixelated and yucky. The person who recorded these also cut out all the end credits. Sigh. I can rewind if I miss a line, though, which is nice. And I don't miss the bad CGI version of Goliath from the S2V2 menu.

This was a nice episode. I could see right away that Renard was acting oddly, in the way he talked to Goliath. I had a vague idea of the basic plot beforehand but most of it was a surprise.

*I like that when Renard asks "How can you judge me?" they ask him if he can live with himself. I do think that in some circumstances, people have a right to judge each other, but with a man who they know has morals, asking him to judge himself was a much better move.
*I like how Elisa helps out in the battle by just tapping the guy on his shoulder and then punching him.
*Elisa's first encounter with the young guy was funny. "What are you looking for?""New York.""Oh. That is a long way from Prague!"
*The parallels between the Golem and the Gargoyles are interesting. Both are stone creatures that protect a place. But the Gargs are natural creatures, they have free will, they are truly alive. The Golem is created and entirely under the animator's control.

This episode raises some interesting questions for me. Renard stole from that one guy, and went around destroying property. But the underlying desire to use magic to escape a really bad medical situation... would it be entirely wrong for someone in that situation, to create a body (instead of stealing it) and one that is not stronger or bigger than a human, from magic? It raises questions of whether immortality is moral, and whether it is alright to lose your humanity by giving up the human form. But at the same time, the guy who controlled the Golem at the end was also messing with superhuman power. He was using it for good, but in the end, should anyone hold such power? I suppose the same questions can be asked about tanks, bazookas, and nukes as well. But then, those questions should be asked about those weapons!
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 6:23:03 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Todd...are you the barracuda??
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 4:09:39 pm EST from 201.235.88.204

TODD: There's also another "when will Gargoyles be released in Region 2" question.

And a "Why is the comic a rehash of the Journey?" question. Greg's probably already answered that one, too.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 3:33:50 pm EST from 209.162.56.94

Heads up, Todd! There are a whole bunch of "when is the rest of season two coming out?" questions on the way up the queue. Maybe you're busy with real life, but if you've got the time I just thought I'd let you know that you could probably knock a few of those out.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 3:04:39 pm EST from 68.54.23.62

Hey all. I was on a Dungeons and Dragons Website in December and got a virus. Just pick one from a list of 'em on google.

Long story short, I got some spyware that, when I went to my Master Card website, told me to input my info (#, sec. Code, pin #, etc.)

My internet stopped working, and I had to reboot my computer. Just got it working.

Watch out!!!




HAve you seen "Night at the Museum"?

Great movie, funny, but resembles Gargoyles! It does. At the Museum of Natural History in New York, all of the exibits come to life at night, (Or museum close, I think) and then at sumrise, return to their poses and beoome still again.

It's like gargoyles comming to life and then posing at sunrise. I can't explain it more; you'd have to see the film.

(Robin Willimas plays a decent Teddy Roosevelt.)
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 2:23:15 pm EST from 142.59.179.178

Gee i totally forgot about the end of the week hahaha i opened the comment room and said "what the hell has happened???"
Demon@ - ["Look, Raist, naked womans!"]
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 10:37:31 am EST from 201.235.88.204

Dang... missed it... at least I get my lucky number... 11TH!!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 8:45:58 am EST from 24.207.163.239

10th
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 5:18:12 am EST from 195.93.21.4

(9)Ninth(9) all the way!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 5:06:06 am EST from 69.54.209.63

eight
Lynati
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 2:48:04 am EST from 69.154.241.236

Seventh!
Spen
"Never put off 'til tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow" - Mark Twain
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 1:36:12 am EST from 216.248.119.208

Sixth!! (yay!)
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
Pheon
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 1:27:58 am EST from 157.242.214.2

Fifth!!
Asatira - [<---- gathering journal]
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 1:10:16 am EST from 68.190.58.7

Fourth!
Kaylle - [kaylle at ladyavalon dot com]
GargoylesDVD.com
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 12:59:59 am EST from 66.31.44.143

THIRD in the name of me and Chameleongirl. ^_^
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail dot com]
I do not suffer fools, gladly or otherwise.
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 12:18:14 am EST from 76.168.61.199

This is me, again. Computer got screwed.
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
"Humans are such easy prey for a gargoyle"
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 12:02:10 am EST from 69.231.250.66

Woops, that was me
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
"Humans are such easy prey for a gargoyle"
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 12:00:55 am EST from 69.231.250.66

Darn! Make that second!
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 12:00:48 am EST from 69.221.234.255

First!!! for the first time ever!
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 12:00:18 am EST from 69.221.234.255

1st
Anonymous
posted @ Mon, Jan 22, 2007 12:00:14 am EST from 69.231.250.66