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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending February 5, 2007

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Sorry for the double post, but forgot to ask: Jamesman, if you're listening, would you mind posting a link? It's come up before, but I forgot to bookmark it.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Free will... it's like butterfly wings. Once touched, they never get off the ground. No, I merely set the stage. You pull your own strings." -Al Pacino ("The Devil's Advocate")

Matt: "Sack of monkeys in my pocket! My sister's ready to go! Hideous control now!"

I haven't been in the fandom as long as others, so I don't really have a great deal to say about this. I do think that there is only so much fans can do. But there is something that Greg B said that reminds me: when they released Season One, I remember the fandom achieved a goal they were shooting for of 100 reviews on amazon.com before the release date. At the moment, Season Two Volume One has only 82 reviews.

But at the same time, I remember going to Best Buy the day the Season One DVD came out and not finding it in the New Releases section, though I recall a few Disney titles being there. Same thing with the next DVD set. Just skipped right over the New Releases into the regular aisles (and I don't think they got them until a few weeks after they came out).

This is only what I observe.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Free will... it's like butterfly wings. Once touched, they never get off the ground. No, I merely set the stage. You pull your own strings." -Al Pacino ("The Devil's Advocate")

They'll have to visit Avalon again in the fall of 2007.
Vaevictis Asmadi

I'm curious as to the relationship between Boudicca (sp?) and Bronx. I understand that they are mates, even though they're seperated, but what I don't understand is how they will eventually produce eggs. That is, if Boudicca doesn't join the Manhattan Clan, or Bronx the Avalon Clan, which GW has said won't happen. Won't this lead to some sort of irregularity?
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
"What sorcery is this?!" -- Almost every gargoyle, ever.

Ed, there's a big difference between "post a web message that 1000 random people will see" and "convice 1000 people to buy the DVDs" I don't know what newsarama is, but I highly doubt that every single person who ever looks at a post there is someone who would like Gargoyles. I mean, I could spam my church group mailing list and tell my grandmother too, and that would be at least 100 people, but I'm quite certain none of them would buy the DVDs. I could walk into any random forum and spam it, but people won't be inclined to listen to me in that case.

Anyway, I watched The Green and Sentinel today.

I don't think The Green was preachy at all. If anything, the Gargs could at least once have said "This is our home, and it is the only place we have to live." Or something. I can understand that Elisa is concerned about breaking the law, and about farmers who are trying to grow food, and Zaphiro should try to think about their situation too. But the Mayan Clan is in the same situation as a lot of indigenous tribes in the Amazon. They don't own their ancestral land, so any logging company can evict them and they have no rights at all.
Hyena and Jackal keep getting more and more disgusting with their body parts. And I think I've lost my respect for Vogel, who doesn't care who Jackal kills as long as he can get his money. If there were some human tribes living on the land would he let Jackal murder them as well?
Does anybody else think it's weird that Goliath and the Mayans made a point of names when they met? It was like the standard human introduction. It was also weird that Goliath felt the need to tell Zaphiro that he was a gargoyle. I mean, wasn't it obvious? I could understand if all four were feathered serpents, but three of them looked similar to Goliath and Angela.
Zaphiro is really cool-looking, although he supports his body on a very short bit of tail. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure Quetzalcoatl was never depicted with wings, only with feathers. Although genuinely winged snakes appear in Mississippi Valley art.
And of course the pendants are cool. I'd already read spoilers for this episode before I watched it, but it was strange to see gargoyles going about in the daylight. Of course, poachers and loggers operate mostly by day, so they really need this. And it is the only way their clan survived the massacre at all.

Sentinel was interesting. Nokkar is.... I don't like him at all. He reminds me too much of extreme religious fundamentalists who are convinced they alone posess THE TRUTH and anyone who disagrees with them is a servant of Satan or else posessed by witchcraft. He sees a species he can't recognize, so he thinks they are aliens. OK, fair enough. But first of all, why does he assume all aliens are hostile and evil? He seems to assume that every race except his own is an evil servant of the Space Spawn. Does that seem just a little racist?
Then Elisa disagrees with him.. so she must be under Evil Mind Control. So he erases her memory, and then when (surprise!) she doesn't remember Goliath, that's his excuse to kill the gargoyles. He can't even bother to wait a few days until her real memory returns so she can tell him what happened. He can't give them the tiniest little chance for their very lives. He would rather kill some random people because they might be aliens. That's like arresting 3 people who vaguely resemble a security camera image of a robber, and then executing them all without a trial on the off chance one of them might be the robber.
He even left Elisa wandering around the island at night, almost helpless. And when she mentioned gargoyle statues, he just ignored what she said because it didn't fit his pre-concieved notions. Other little things, like arriving in a medieval vehicle, don't mean anything to him either.
Nokkar claims to be a protector, but he seems more like a self-righteous stick-up who doesn't care much about innocent lives.

Other than that... hm. The King Arthur line was of course, pretty amusing. And Goliath says he hasn't seen the Holy Grail "yet."
Also, Goliath hesitates when he says "We've been.... travelling with my daughter." What was he about to say, about their relationship? It's a good thing he didn't she'd certainly not believe that!

I'm surprised that they were willing to leave the island without knowing if Elisa's memory would return. If I'd been attacked and memory drained by an alien, I wouldn't let him off the hook until I knew I'd recovered. Especially if I had no way of getting back to the island!

I think every single episode of Gargoyles so far has involved the destruction of at least one monument, ancient statue, irreplaceable artifact, historical building, or prehistoric fossil. It's almost one of the themes of the show.

Vaevictis Asmadi

There is a difference between 'responsibility' (Greg's word) and 'blame' (which is what's being talked about here).

We, the fans, want the DVD. Disney has no particular reason to release it. It's not going to be a big earner for them, it's not a property they're currently looking to develop. They gave it a go -- a good go. Two DVD sets with 9 commentary tracks, lots of features and interactive screens. They were disappointed. They moved on.

The fans aren't to blame for that.

But the fans are *responsible* for making Disney pay attention again -- because nobody else is going to do it.

And I do believe it's possible. 'Firefly' for one is still a top-selling DVD thanks to word of mouth. If it didn't start with a bang, it's certainly showed stamina. 'Gargoyles' has failed to prove itself as a quick buck; the only thing left is to be a long-term asset.

Disney advertised other cartoons -- but other cartoons benefit from advertising much more because there's much more recognition. My friends hear 'Ducktales' is coming out, they're all "oh my god, I loved Ducktales as a kid!". They here 'Gargoyles' is coming out many are like, "what? That thing you're into, right?". It might just be a UK thing, or a generational thing, but it surprises me not a bit that Rescue Rangers, Talespin and Ducktales get more promotion because I expect they get much greater sales (although does anyone know if 'Gargoyles' is advertised on those DVDs? It would be a great boon if it was). Similarly, 'Cinderella 3' means more to Joe Bloggs than 'Gargoyles' -- maybe only "yeah, I need to get my niece something for her birthday...", but it's safe. 'Gargoyles' just isn't a name in the same way Scrooge or Cinderella are. It doesn't make sense to choose to advertise 'Gargoyles' INSTEAD of advertising something which might catch people's attention to the same extent.

It does frustrate me no end that they labelled the DVD Volume *1* because it draws attention to the fact that there is a second half of the season, but nobody would be the least bit bothered if they were called Season 2 and Season 3. The fact is, 'Kingdom' is a pretty strong finish. Are there loose ends? Sure. But 'Hunter's Moon' had loose ends. 'The Journey'. It's not like the thing ends on a vast cliffhanger.

How do you persuade people to buy an incomplete season? By making it clear to them that they WILL get a complete story. I've lost count of the number of people who believe that the split season would be the same as the split-season DVDs you see of 'Lost' or '24', cutting mid-arc.

And it's not impossible to get word out to 1000 People. A single post at Newsarama will get you most of the way there just for starters.


Matt: that was my point too. I saw the Cinderella 3 ad and thought the same thing. Disney will spend money on this, but they also have proven successes with their Television series. Other studios promote their stuff. Hell, I've seen ads for Canadian series like "Braceface", "6-Teen" and "My Dad the Rockstar" up here, you mean Disney can't afford a couple of ads to plug something that will sell more than those?

Its odd that I even said "us" in my post because I'm not a majorly rabid fan. I loved the series as a kid and I was sad when it got canceled. (well, it got moved to a different time and became TGC, so I'm just as glad I thought it was canceled). I only found out about the DVDs and comic at Convergece because Greg did a Gargoyles panel there.

I'm only a casual fan, but since then I think I've done about as much as I can. I got the DVDs, I'm buying the comic, I told the people at the main forum I frequent. I didn't tell my friends, because they were all at the same panel at the same convention. I told my brother, and he downloaded it instead. (and watched it once and deleted it). I don't have a webpage or blog, I don't have a job or any other income, so what else can I do?

Greg has said repeatedly that he doesn't expect us to spend money we don't have. But he has said we should each get 1000 more people to buy the DVDs. And I think that's equally impossible. I'm not trying to tar and feather Greg, and I think he's trying hard to stay on Disney's good side so they'll like him. But Disney has had unfair expectations of us from the start, and the only thing they care about here is the money. I'll admit this is reality, but I'm not going to say it is OK or satisfactory, or that Disney has been fair to the fans. I'm not going to say that they haven't made any mistakes and its all the fans fault.

Vaevictis Asmadi

Jamesman> Look, everyone in this Room loves Greg, no matter how frustrated we all are right now (and you are right about everyone being frustrated), Greg W is, more than anyone and anything, the reason the fandom is as strong as it is today. Just in doing that, Greg has done more for DVD sales then perhaps anyone else. I don't think any, or at least not many, fans are blaming Greg or even that upset with Greg. I think Greg knows we tried, and I think Greg is frustrated about Disney too, I think his comments just rubbed people the wrong way a bit. But maybe that was the point, I dunno.

What I'm getting at is that I doubt very much greg will be tarred and feathered in this Room. We love him too much for that...

Now get the grease and spoons!

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

I don't realy comment on here, but I have often checked in and read.

For what it's worth, I'd like to defend Greg before we all get out the tar and feathers. Reading the response in question (second response in the latest addition, corrent?), he comments by saying "We" and "Our." He's including himself in the "blame" for poor sales.

More to the point, it doesn't come off like pointing fingers. It's just that most of us knew what this was going to be, and maybe EVERYONE'S just frustrated because nobody's really a winner at the moment over it; Not Disney, not the fans, and not Greg. So let's not start bashing on Disney or being offended by Greg, because we're all in this boat together, and it's too late to head back to the dock and try a different one, so let's just keep paddling with our hands and shoveling out water by the bucketful and pray we reach our destination.

And for what it's worth, I feel like I've done my part. Some of you might remember me from a few months back, when I started doing episode summaries on the Something Awful Message Boards. I eventually did the first 8 episodes of the show, spread out over a few months, and I did end up getting people to buy the DVDs. But ultimately, I don't know how effective my work was in the big picture. I started getting worn out over the summaries, and interest started to die back down, and I'm sure a handful of confirmed purchases (and possibly more speculated ones) still didn't make a dent in the numbers for it to matter. :/


Last night, my boyfriend, mom and I were watching tv. I can't remember what we were watching, but it wasn't a youth-oriented show. An ad for Cinderella 3 came on and we watched the ad. As soon as it was over my boyfriend and mom started saying things like, "When was there a Cinderella 2?!" "Why are the advertising THAT?!" etc. I couldn't help but agree with them, of course. I mean making all these sequels to the classics is disturbing and weird enough, but it is truely bizarre what Disney chooses to advertise and where it does so.

It is pretty annoying that Disney is spending a lot of money to advertise something like Cinderella 3. I mean, did Cinderella 2 really sell THAT well? I don't get it. The point is, I don't understand why Disney didn't do more for Gargoyles. I understand they wanted to make money, I understand they probably wanted us to do a lot of work for them, I understand that they probably were unhappy with the results and wish more DVDs had sold... what I don't understand is why they are spending a ton of money on advertising a B-rated sequel to a B-rated sequel and spent nothing on advertising a show that is arguably their most enduring and popular animated series.

As for blaming the fans, well, I think we did pretty well, and though I think we should continue to SPREAD THE WORD, I don't think any of the fandom, including Greg W, should be blaming the fans. We tried. Clearly Disney didn't help. We still helped get a lot more DVDs sold than would have been otherwise.

You know, if Disney was going to show that they were a good company, and not just one looking for money, they could AT LEAST send the fans a note saying something like this: "Thank you for enjoying the series so much after all these years and working so hard to keep it alive. Thank you for working very hard to spread the word of the DVD release and binging in more sales. Unfortunatly, sales were not as high as hoped and currently there is no plans to release the rest of the series. However, we will continue to evaluate whether that should be done in the future." I mean, they know we are a big fandom, they know about the Gathering and all that, they should know we are not going to be happy about all this and the LEAST they could do is have someone write a note to the fans THANKING us for what we've done for them and the series.

But instead we get blame? It's just not right.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

You should check on one of the last responses.
I agree with most of you here. Disney is not charity, yeah, sure enough, but were are not either. If they are a business, then THEY should spread the word to sell their products, not the CUSTOMERS. Its not OUR fault that a company gives a damn about making enough money and their own products.
I have all the episodes, i give a freaking damn whatever the dvd goes out or it doesnt. As vaedictus said, we can get it for free. I bought the 2 dvds internationaly, i paid triple for the two of them. It wasnt for necesity, it was for respect. I dont like to steal for that is as i see downloading things that are available to buy, but if the dvd its not available, and its the only way for me to get it, perfect. I wont have to buy the second dvd release and my concience will be happy with that. So my pouches. Disney has lost MY money, and who knows how many others. If they no respect with their customers, then i wont have any respect with them.
They are company who cares only for what they gain, well fine. Im an individual who thinks only in what I can gain. I wont purchased any more products from them, and i will just download them. Its not my fault.

Demon@ - ["The access code is Jalapeña"]

While I'm waiting for my confirming email to access the G'07 forum, got a question for Greg B or Y2Hec: The contest for the anthology... What is the theme?? Deadline is less than 2 months and I see no info on what the theme is.

That's all:) Forgive my panicked reply. I'd love to participate, like I do every year, but I find the deadline always too steep when I finally find the topic. So, maybe this year, or next!

Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, food!!"

Man, I have missed a lot in here, haven't I? So could someone tell me when Greg posted whatever it was that added fuel to the fire blaming fans for poor garg sales?
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, food!!"

I wouldn't say its their "obligation" to advertise. If they don't want to bother to advertise, while that sucks for us, they are a business and they care about one thing: profit.

But to say its our fault somehow that they didn't advertise? To have Greg telling us its our fault? So what if it was always understood that Disney would not advertise. It still isn't fair to blame us for not having the ad power of a major corporation.

And I think someone here made a very good point: lots of people who would probably buy Season Two otherwise, are not willing to put money on a half-finished season that Disney will probably never publish. Releasing Volume Two probably would boost Volume One sales.

And of course the illegal download supply messes things up quite a bit. People who are only casual fans will often not buy it. My family told me buying was a waste of money. I'm only a casual fan but I bought it to hopefully support the comic. Now I'm glad I did, because the downloads are terrible quality. But my entire family, including my mother, thought I was crazy to spend money when the illegal version is free.

Vaevictis Asmadi

I do not believe that sales were bad because people don't have an interest in it even though they know it's out. I truly believe if there had been even an ouce of advertising from Disney, the sales would be a hell of a lot better.

I have another little story to tell (I know, people just love my stories):
I'm planning to buy the "Beauty and the Beast" tv show on dvd when it's released next week. I know very little about that show. I vaguely remember watching it as a child with my mom though I was too young to understand it. Later I've only caught two episodes, and what I saw I liked. I've seen really great reviews for it. I only just heard about it coming to DVD last week when I got one of those reccomendation notices from Amazon. I can't even consider myself a "casual fan" of that show, I only remember the two episodes, and yet Im planning to buy it - I like the preimse and it gives me a bit of nostaligia.

I wonder how many people are out there when they were kids watched Gargoyles on Disney afternoon - liked it, but didn't really undersand it, and would like the chance to see it again now that they're older. I can't even count the number of times I've seen people on websites like deviantart and youtube express that they liked what they remember of the show but had no idea there were Dvds or comics available. Yeah, I'm sure a vast majority of those people didn't run out to buy the DVDS, but I would also bet a lot of them did. Think of how much more sales there would be if more people knew the dvds were available.

I'm not sure who I'm preaching to here lol, I guess it's a response to demonskrye's post, but I just wanted to vent ;)
Heh, I wonder if Greg will come in here and say something. It kind of looks like we're ganging up on our "clal leader!"

oh, and BTW, I have no idea what the company who produces beauty and the beast are doing in the department of advertising- I'm going to look more into that. I'm not sure how many more people are aware of it coming to dvd besides its hardcore fans, and I just happened to come across it on Amazon. I can't even find a professional website for the show however.

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"We're sitting dorks here!" - Broadway

I'm not even talking about a big display stand... I'm talking about the New Releases rack. Best Buy doesn't put things on the New Releases rack unless the company behind the DVD pays for the space. The other DA shows got that, "Gargoyles" didn't.

A TV ad would have been great, but, most DVDs don't get those, and they still sell... hell, Disney didn't even put up the cash to put the DVDs in the NEW RELEASES section... a little thing like that would have made a difference. A big difference.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]

And one ad on their OWN stations. They won't even have to rent that time to put the commercials on.
Siren - [Click my name for Gargoyles' Femme Fatales Music Video!]

Greg B- Store displays are one thing. I worked in music/video retail long enough to know that a lot of stores don't even bother putting those up. Their a pain to put together and take up a lot of floor space. I'm talking TV advertising. One ad saying, " your favorite Disney afternoon shows are available on DVD". That would really cost them big bucks. ONE AD!

We made web pages
We made art
We made stories
We made videos
We spread the word
We created a convention
We have done ALL we can.

Disney has done sqwat in advertising. From the DVD to the comic. The demand might not be as strong as we hoped for, but how can it be when its only word of mouth by fans and the show's owners don't give jacksh** about it other then to tease us with "get the word out and we'll give you part 2". The demand and profit is there enough to produce a comic book, I seriously doubt its not there for part 2. Disney just rather sit on their hands about it and place blame on the fans. And that is childish and irrespondsible. THEY ultimatly have the OBLIGATION to support what they make and get it out. That's like if Titanic came out without the song and ad campaign and it didn't do well, James Cameron blaming the audience goers for their poor attendance. If you want to make a sale you have to advertise. Any mom and pop store knows that. Word of mouth is the best way, but its not the first and only way. Disney caused the failure, not us.

Siren - [Click my name for Gargoyles' Femme Fatales Music Video!]

I've told a lot of customers at my job about the Gargoyles DVDs and Comic Books. I've plugged them on a friend's Internet Radio. I've discussed it on my LJ. I dunno if any of that prompted anyone to buy them (though I'd like to think so), but I don't like that we, the fans, are being blamed for the (mediocre?) sales of S2V1.

It enrages me that Disney can be so arrogant enough to plug their other shows. Ducktales, Rescue Rangers, etc. They all get publicity for DVD releases. What the hell did Gargoyles get? Jack Squat.

It's... I don't know what it is, but it's not pleasent.

I agree with everyone here who have said that we can only do so much. Disney wants to make money, that's fine. I can get that. But without the fans, without the people who BUY their products, without us., they would not see crap financially.

Disney started off with the more 'cartoony' stuff, and by that, I mean Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, etc., etc. Y'know, stuff for CHILDREN. A less kiddy show like Gargoyles comes along, and, with the lack of publicity for it that went instead to their more mainstream material, it seems to me that Disney wants to FORGET Gargoyles.

It's obvious, to me, that they don't care. Not about Gargoyles. Not about the DVDs. Not about us.

And they certainly have no desire to publicize a thing that, to them, seems worthless, despite the fairly large fanbase.

They just don't care.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.

WINGLESS> Actually, Disney has done a little more to promote their other Disney Afternoon DVDs. Duck Tales, Rescue Rangers, Darkwing Duck, TaleSpin... Disney spent the extra cash so that those DVDs could be seen in the New releases sections in stores like Best Buy, Suncoast, and FYE, and other places.

Nope... not "Gargoyles". From day one it was always hidden on the shelves, where unless a casual buyer stumbled upon it by accident, there was no chance of them coming upon it.

A little thing like that can make all the difference. But, no... Disney created a situation where it all rested on us. I understand that... and I've tried to see both sides to this. Sorry, not anymore.


Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey"

I gotta step in and say I agree with Patrick and Ian. I'm sick of it always being OUR fault that something doesn't come through. Maybe it's just the way Greg worded it, but it really rubbed me the wrong way.

Sorry Disney, Sorry SLG, Sorry Greg... but I'm not taking the fall this time for things beyond my control. I've dumped a ton of my personal time and money into Gargoyles. Time and time again I get told that it's not enough.

No one wants to listen to us, they just want to blame us. When we step up and shout that something is wrong, that something could be done a better way... we are looked down upon like a bunch of whining brats and talked down to like we aren't important to the final numbers... then it's back to blaming us for those same final numbers.

Yeah, I'm just about done with all of that. So close.

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
"Ten percent of nuthin' is...let me do the math here...nuthin' into nuthin'...carry the nuthin'..." --Jayne, Firefly

I meant Vintage. I really need new eyes.

With all due respect to Greg W. We as fans can only do so much. Disney DOES have a role and responsiblity to take in this. Part of selling a producti is MARKETING! If you don't advertise, you don't sell. Word of mouth only goes so far. I'm not talking about just Gargoyles here. None of the Disney afternoon series on DVD have got any TV advertising to my knowledge, at least here in Canada, or on the US stations we get. Disney can flog the hell out of Cinderella 3 on DVD, but ignore tried and true series that people know, love and have wanted for years but don't know are out there. Disney can blame us fans all they want, but They're the one's with power here, we're not. We can only buy the product. They're the ones that can make it happen. There are also thouse that would likely buy these things if they knew it was out there(the guilty pleasure factor, if you will) but again, if they don't know it's out there except by chance browsing in a store, Disney isn't going to have much of a chance selling their product.

Sorry Greg - I love ya man, but we as fans can only do so much. We can promote and buy as much as we can, but the people with the real power to get the word out is Disney, and they're doing next to sqat on that front to promote their vintate TV series DVDs and you know it.


I'm sure file sharing the episodes doesn't help. Some people just seem to have an entitlement complex.

I don't know, I think Greg made it pretty clear from Day One that the burden rested on us, and I do think we did a better job for season one than with S2V2. There were ads on webcomics for Season One (which fans paid for)

There were people, on this very board, saying "Volume 2" is guaranteed, and some of us quoting Greg, saying it wasn't.

Well, what's done is done. I do agree, Disney could have and should have done more. They probably would have made a profit. But, I think Ian is off on saying what Greg should or should not have said at any meetings. Greg was there, we were not. He's the one who had to deal with them, so we can do all the arm chair business negotiations we want, but it doesn't matter.

Ultimately, what's done is done. I still hold out hope that one day we'll see the rest. Probably unpolished, with no extras, but the episodes are what we really need. So, maybe we will, maybe we won't.

BUT, what does piss me off is that Disney paid to have Duck Tales, Rescue Rangers, TaleSpin, Darkwing Duck (etc), put in the New Releases display area in stores like Best Buy... but, nope, not "Gargoyles".

The burden rested on us, we always knew that. It was clear. But, damn Disney for making it that way in the first place.

I think our last shot is the comic book. If it continues to do well, maybe demand will increase for the next DVD set.

Now, is "Gargoyles" wanted at all by the market? I like to think so. Most of the time when I discuss it with people, it's well remembered. But, this past year while I was taking classes at Full Sail (it's a film school), it came up during a conversation, and out of a class of about twenty people, I was the only one who chose to watch "Gargoyles" over... ugh, "Power Rangers"... and those people have very fond memories of "Power Rangers". Yeah, that depressed me.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"And that brings us to tonight's word: Truthiness. Now I'm sure some of the word-police, the "wordanistas" over at Websters, are gonna say, "Hey, that's not a word!" Well, anybody who knows me knows that I am no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true, what did or didn't happen..." - Stephen Colbert

::pokes head in::

My feeling is that there is enough blame to go around on why we aren't getting Season 2 Part 2 anytime in the forseeable future, so far as we know. I think the phrasing of that most recent question to Greg on the subject was particularly bad. Disney is a company, a business, and like it or not, their main goal is to turn a profit. There are many creative people there and many of them care very much about the quality of work Disney puts out. But in the end, they aren't going to do anything that they don't think will make them money. They aren't going to put something out on DVD because it would make some people happy if they don't believe it will ultimately be profitable. Think about this concept applied to any other business. It just doesn't make good businees sense.

That said, I don't think the blame should be resting entirely on the fans. I think even if Disney didn't want to pull out all the stops for a ful lbown ad campaign for the "Gargoyles" DVDs, they could have at least done something. They own several TV stations, at least one of which shows "Gargoyles". Would it have been too much to put together a small ad, or even just a still frame or audio announcement, to run somewhere and let the people who might be interested in buying this DVD know it's out? I'm not entirely sure that the fandom knew quite how much was riding on their shoulders. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I seem to recall that there were rumors of various types of advertising from Disney floating around. Maybe it was our failure to understand, maybe it was that we weren't told clearly enough. But either way, I don't think fans knew that they were the sole advertising for the "Gargoyles" DVDs.

Another, more disappointing possibility, is that maybe fans did do a reasonable job of getting the word out, and the demand just wasn't there. Maybe people did realize that "Gargoyles" was out on DVD and just said "That's nice." "Thanks, but no thanks." "Just not my thing." Much as we may like the show and the larger fiction, we can't assume that everyone would necessarily feel the same way. Maybe all the Disney ad revenue in the world wouldn't make the difference. Maybe the world just doesn't want "Gargoyles".

My fear is that this may be a sign of things to come with "cult" properties which have a devoted fan following. That people will somehow assume that there is no need for advertising because fan word of mouth and enthusiasm will take its place. It's not a terrible idea, and I wouldn't say it's never worked. But it's one of those things that should happen organicly. Much like these "viral capaigns" that so many companies are trying to start up, you can't force it, depend on it happening. Fans can do a lot for something they love, but that doesn't mean anyone should assume fans will be able to carry something when the studio isn't putting the money into it.

On a slight tangent, has anyone figured out the sales numbers for the other Disney Afternoon shows that came out on DVD? I've been wondering if those are being held to a different standard (at least two of the shows made it to second DVDs), or there's just more of a market for these shows than I think there is. Are they better remembered? Closer to the "nostalgia point" in the major buying markets lives? More compatable with the "all ages famly fun" image of Disney?


I think it is unfair for Disney to put this completely on us. I do agree a lot of it SHOULD be on us. But we did everything we could. They did NOTHING. I'm not asking for an ad campaign the size of Godzilla's (and we know how that went), but is it too much to ask Disney to put a fricken TRAILER on their OWN DVDs? Power Rangers, POTC, and the other Disney Afternoon DVDs were perfect DVDs to place a short 1-2 minute trailer to tell people, "hey! Gargoyles is coming to DVD! Buy buy buy!"
We are a group of fans with limited resources. They have unlimited resources. Making a cheap, quickie trailer on their DVDs would have cost a lot of money. TV commercials cost more. But they did nothing.

And this is what we has fans have to stand up against:
A recent conversation on one of my Gargoyle videos on YouTube...

aoinatafanboy84 (9 hours ago)
I wish someone would upload episodes...I miss this show...

sirengarg (7 hours ago)
Buy the DVD. The Mirror is included on Season 2:Part 1 DVD. Then you can watch it anytime, anywhere.

aoinatafanboy84 (4 hours ago)
I know, but some others forget that not everyone could have cash.

sirengarg (59 minutes ago)
Save up or ask for it at the holidays. I was a kid once too and a kid before DVDs even came out. I found ways to get the money for what I wanted. I am too devoted a fan of the show to upload the episodes and let people be too lazy to buy them and/or have YouTube banning me for it.
I've spread the word. I've made new fans/friends. I told old fans who haven't watched it in years. I've made videos to spread the word. I've uploaded a short clip of an episode (albiet a poor quality one....on purpose). And yet it wasn't enough.

How can Disney expect so much support from us when they don't even support us? I expected Disney would have made a trailer for DVDs...posters...something economical and cheap. We weren't asking for a massive toy market again, or banners all over New York. A little help from them would have gone a long way. But they blame US for the numbers not being high enough? It's THEIR baby. Not our's. We've cared for it, nutured it, helped it grow. And they haven't put a dime into advertising for it, but they blame us.

I know I sound ungrateful. I'm not. I am VERY happy to have the DVDs we've got...and even happier to have a comicbook. I'll kiss the ground they walk on for that. But this whole advertising thing, and putting it all on us, I'm sorry, I don't agree. Disney gets their head in their arse too much about things. They'll raise their prices on their parks in the blink of an eye, but they won't so much as make an advertisment poster for stores to tell the public about the show being on DVD. Just because they are a big buisness, doesn't mean they have good business sense.

Siren - [Click my name for Gargoyles' Femme Fatales Music Video!]

I'm sick and tired of seeing the most dedicated segment of the fandom being told we aren't doing enough and therefore aren't good fans. It was an insane pipedream from the get-go to imagine that every one of us could individually spread the word far enough to each generate 10,000 sales of Season 2, Volume 1. Disney shoots themselves in the foot by not promoting their own product, then blames the most loyal batch of customers for the poor sales figures. This stance is so aggravating I don't even know where to begin. Would FOX or ABC ever release to DVD only HALF a season of "24" or "Lost" and then wonder why sales are less than previous full-season releases? Hell no. So why does Disney do it?

138 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"Why do you do it, Mr. Anderson?"

Todd - In my thinking, what happenned in the gargoyles universe with the Minotaur and the myth of the Minotaur are two very different things, mainly because the human is the 'victor' and the 'winner' writes the story. Of course, I have a really interesting question about New Olympus. How do they define who/what can vote in their democracy? Is it something along the lines of since your parents are/were sentient, you are? Or is it more complex than that?
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Excellent points Ian. Frankly, the first time I heard that the realease of volume 2 rested on the sales of volume 1, I KNEW it would never see the store shelves, particularly since Disney, the company making any sort of money off these dvds, did absolutely nothing to sell their product. How are casual fans and newcomers supposed to even know that it's out?? The fans can only do so much. And I think it was very wrong of Greg Weisman to put the blame on use for not spreading the word. What exactly are we supposed to do short of spamming internet message boards??

I just came up with this lame hypothetical scenario:

So you're looking to curl up in bed with a good book later tonight. You go into a bookstore, and see an interesting looking novel on the shelf. You've read about this book on the internet and a couple of your friends has said that it's a great read. It's got all the elements that you love to read about. BUT, you also know that the book only includes the first part of a two part story...and that the publisher won't release the second part unless the first gets good sales. Plus the book is one of those first edition hard covers - it's not that cheap - it took you almost four hours at your job to cover the price of the book.
There's a second book on the shelf - it looks pretty cool. Yeah, you would probably enjoy the first one better, but at least with this one you know there's going to be beginning, middle, and end. And you really don't want to get engrossed in the first book only to be disappointed if the sales dont do too great - it's happened before. So which book to you choose to buy?

There's a lot of tv shows on DVD, a lot of choices. How can we expect the people who are not as dedicated to the show as we are plunk down 35 bucks for an unfinished "book"?

I'de go with the second book

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"We're sitting dorks here!" - Broadway

I feel compelled to comment on Mr. Weisman's latest response regarding the Gargoyles DVDs. The blame doesn't lie entirely with the fans. Of course the hardcore fans, like the people who read this site, are going to buy the sets and spike the sales numbers the first day they come out. I know I did. But the casual DVD buyer has zero incentive to start collecting the DVDs if the whole series isn't available or scheduled for release. Every single one of my friends whom I discuss Gargoyles with has strong positive memories of the series, but once I mention the fact that Disney didn't bother to release a whole third of the show, they exhibit the same disgust I do. Even if they came upon the existing DVDs at Barnes and Noble or something, they would have no reason to buy them in preference to other available series because they wouldn't be able to finish it off. Those Season 1 and 2 DVDs that Disney has sitting around in stock someplace are worth less because the whole series isn't available... and that very much IS Disney's fault. It's the "long tail" argument, and were I the one meeting with Disney execs, it's the first one I'd bring up. But I'm not, so I wish Mr. Weisman the best of luck.

Hell, at this point I'd take a digital-only release over iTunes or something (since a certain Mr. Jobs is the chief stockholder in Disney these days...). I'd much prefer physical discs, but anything is preferable to illegally downloading bad-quality Toon Disney rips.

Ian Stewart - [stewart dot ian at gmail dot com]

Yes, it is strange that Taurus and Proteus don't know that gargoyles turn to stone. The Mount Thanatos Clan must be very isolated from urban New Olympus!
Vaevictis Asmadi

A few thoughts of my own about "The New Olympians" (most of which will probably seem familiar to those who've been around here for a while).

Proteus is very skillful at taking on the *appearance* of those whom he impersonates, but isn't so good at capturing their character. Note the mistakes that he makes when he's pretending to be Goliath. He asks "Who's that guy?" - and we know that Goliath doesn't talk so slangily. He comes up with a weak explanation over why he isn't turning to stone in the daytime (since gargoyles turn to stone by day whether sunlight hits them or not, the cloaking device wouldn't make any difference). And, of course, the real Goliath wouldn't blow up the island. Small wonder that Elisa sees through him.

Ekidne struck me as channelling Demona in her cries of "Treacherous human!"

Helios and Kiron's behavior struck me as especially deplorable; these guys are police, so they should be discouraging riots, rather than taking part in them.

Incidentally, I've come upon another fun little take-off on what really happened with Theseus and the Minotaur besides Taurus's description of it in "The New Olympians", that I found in a very enjoyable webcomic called "Gunnerkrigg Court". It's about the adventures of a young girl named Antimony Carver in a mysterious and somewhat creepy British boarding school (the Gunnerkrigg Court of the title). In one of these adventures, she encounters the Minotaur while exploring the older section of the school library; he turns out to be a good-natured and gentle fellow rather than a rampaging monster - is, in fact, a little startled when Antimony shows up until she puts him at ease (she's a very well-mannered girl, who'll greet anyone politely, even mythical creatures - which she isn't the slightest bit rattled by at all), and invites him to her Mythology class to tell his story. To see the actual story, click on my name.

(I'd like to recommend "Gunnerkrigg Court" in general; it contains a rich variety of stories. Some are humorous, such as Antimony helping out a small ghost named Mort who's feeling rather glum because he's not very good at scaring people - she points out tactfully to him that the problem is that he's relying too much on the worn-out cliches of the bedsheet with holes in it and saying "Boo!" and gives him some advice on how to be more effective; others are adventure stories, such as her investigation of a dragon-like beast being held prisoner in a remote part of the school, and still others are more quiet character-based moments, including her grieving over her mother's death (which took place shortly before the story began).

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

I've finally gotten around to writing something about New Olympians. I am getting a bit tired with writing these reviews.

I dearly love Greek mythology, but oddly I have slightly mixed feelings about this episode. The idea behind the New Olympians is a very fun concept, but I'm not sure how well it fits into the Gargoyles universe. The New Olympians themselves fit just fine into Gargverse cosmology and history, but the flavor of them is very different from the rest of the series.

I understand the episode a great deal better than I did ten years ago, when I thought that the characters were supposed to be the actual beings they were named for -- that Proteus was actually the sea god, Helios was actually the Sun, Boreas actually the wind, and Taurus actually a constellation. I thought that was the dumbest part of the episode, so the whole thing makes more sense now that I know the NOs are only descended from ancient gods and monsters.

One thing that is clear in the episode is that all of them look very inhuman. Greg has said they originated as Halflings, in fact are Halflings, but people such as Fox and Alex do not look inhuman like that. Many of the ancient Olympian gods didn't, either. I'm sure part of it is that New Olympians include half-animal and maybe even half-gargoyle Halflings, besides just the familiar half-human kind. But I would guess that their appearance is also because when the island nation was founded, most of those who fled and settled there were the persecuted, inhuman-looking kind. Probably very few of the handsome human-looking types were in the founding population, since many of those were worshiped as gods and many others lived lives as mortal heroes.

All of the New Olympians come across as very unsympathetic. Even Boreas and Taurus are clearly very bigoted, although they seem to have the capacity to learn. I also wonder about Talos. But the others are really terrible. Even Echidna, who seems sympathetic at first when she talks about the persecution her people once faced, runs and joins the mob attacking Elisa. Helios even attacks Angela for no apparent reason. And tangentally, Proteus is a rather transparent actor.

The whole episode is playing on the same themes that were present in the Mirror, but much more serious this time. Human prejudice is turned around, and Elisa becomes the Monster while Goliath and Angela go free.

Overall, I enjoyed this episode and I would LOVE to learn more about the Gargverse interpretations of various Greek myths (as with the Minotaur). But I'm not particularly interested in the spin-off about the New Olympians meeting with the UN, unless it has a very strong mythic content. I anticipate perhaps it will cover much the same ground as the Gargoyles series, or X-Men.

Vaevictis Asmadi

Siren> Chicago? Good first half of the vid, my comp's acting funny so i'll view the rest laster. Good job!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

HA! "Trumpy, lets play!" "Like Hell, more food."

My favorite episode.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

Greg B: I'm not sure what it is that's spurring this MST kick. But as someone who was raised on the show (and received a majority of education on "popular culture" from it), I'm not going to complain.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Do you know what playing is, Trumpy?" Crow: "Yes, it's where I break you in half."

Astaria, yeah, I figured that was what you meant. That was my hardest one because there were some Demona moments that were perfect, but I needed her to look like Destine. It was my biggest challenge for a video, but I'm so glad its finally done :)
Siren - [Click my name for Gargoyles' Femme Fatales Music Video!]

Samuel: Thks!! I was looking for the word over the dictionary but it only said it was "something odd. Twisted" I count understand why was so WOW that they could put it in the show.
Demon@ - ["The access code is Jalapeña"]

Siren congrats! Oh, and a quick correction. I meant to say "Demona/Cicero" not "Demona/Lipschitz".

FINALLY...YouTube let me upload it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGlfT8HD2uA
Siren - [Click my name for Gargoyles' Femme Fatales Music Video!]

Siren: Thanks for the info :)
I probably won't be making any videos anytime soon though, I have other things to spend my money on right now. Oh well.

New Olympus characters: I can't see the guy too well...but the sphinx girl pretty much look like every other cat-girl in every anime ever made. I'm not even vaguely interested in this spin off. It has so much in common with gargoyles (human/nonhuman romance, nonhumans trying to integrate w/humans) but without the originality - I mean the "greek myth" creatures have been used to death in tv shows and comic books. Meh, okay I'm babbling now.

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"We're sitting dorks here!" - Broadway

More pictures have been added to the "Generations" entry.


Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"And that brings us to tonight's word: Truthiness. Now I'm sure some of the word-police, the "wordanistas" over at Websters, are gonna say, "Hey, that's not a word!" Well, anybody who knows me knows that I am no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true, what did or didn't happen..." - Stephen Colbert

Siren: I think that's one of your best ones. The parrallels were just too much! Especially the Demona/Lispchitz version.

Those pics look like they're from the videotaped "New Olympians" pitch that Greg shows at The Gathering, and they look like they were obtained by someone taking a photograph of the projection screen.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]

HofEyes> Hey, if the other pics stay up, I'm sure that one will too. Very funny.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

Hope I didn't overstep my bounds, but I just thought I'd drop in to say that I contributed a picture to go with my synopsis (with DTaina's help). The admins can take it down if they want, but this is something that's been gnawing at my mind quite a bit as of late, and besides, some things just need to be said.

Anyway, the link's in my name.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Your psychotronic profile indicates high levels of destructive impulse, which may be why I find you so much fun to keep around. My own psychotronic profile is, well, never mind about that now..." -Durandal

Sorry for the double, but I must ask...Where did the pictures of the Sphinx and Terry Chung come from???? They look like from a comic book.
Siren - [Click my name for Gargoyles' Femme Fatales Music Video!]

Thanks :D

I use Sony Vegas, before I used Sony Screenblast. As with everything, setting up for making videos is hardest, once you have all the compenents, the fun begins.

Here's how I do it...
Screw all this copyrighted DVD crap. You don't even need a DVD-ROM if you do it my way.

1.) Make sure your computer can hold a lot of space. There is no set amount. I have 40GB and 512MB RAM that does me just fine to have a couple of 1-1 1/2 hour movies and a dozen or so 1/2 hour episodes.
2.) Buy a video capture device. Like "DVD Express". They sell them at WalMart and Best Buy for $70-100. This is a USB device that allows you to hook up a DVD player, VCR, or camcorder directly to your computer without the need for a special disc drive or card. It also allows you to completly skip copyright blocks on DVDs. However the transfer isn't as high quality, but still is IMO, high quality. For instance, look at the video I posted and the scenes from Eye of the Beholder...those were the best transfers I ever got from it.
3.) You do not need to spend lots of money for a good program. I suggest you start making videos by using Windows Movie Maker, which is standard with XP and Vista. It is a fantastic program for beginners and intermediates. Sony Vegas costs about $80. However, I got the big bookoo Platinum version which was $140, but money well spent, IMO.
4.) I plan to start adding a little copyright to my videos because they have been stolen a lot lately and its terribly annoying. It's like stealing fan art.
5.) Experiment. Make videos you don't intend to be seen. Spend time just playing with the program and see what you can do.

Siren - [Click my name for Gargoyles' Femme Fatales Music Video!]

Shoot, I meant to tell Demon@ what kinky meant too. Kinky basically means something that's appealing in a way that isn't appealing to most people, and it often pertains to sex.

Sorry for the doublepost.

Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Towson, whee!!!

Hello, Neptoon. I'm new here too, but the "Clan" as it were, is pretty friendly. Sometimes things get heated, but it always works out. :P

There was something else I wanted to say...

Oh, yeah! Thank you, DPH for providing me with the links. :)

Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Towson, whee!!!

King cobra haha Id probally be the same as you. I tend not to fit in anywhere even with my friends.

Siren: hahahahahhaha your video is just great!!!!!!!!hahahahha
Demon@ - ["The access code is Jalapeña"]

Welcome Neptoon! Welcome to the CR!

On Clan >> Count me as the random member of the Clan. Loyal, willing to plug in my two cents occaisionally, and mostly someone who listens.

And I agree -- life's nothing without your fair share of cookies!

Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]

Hey Neptoon!

heh, I have no idea what I would be in the "clan"

Siren: lol, awesome video! Certainly different! I like how you jumble clips around to tell a story using the songs, and you did a great job with synching the lips to the narrations.
I love all your videos :) What program do you use, btw? I've wanted to try my hand at making one for a while, but have no idea how to even start.

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"We're sitting dorks here!" - Broadway

Neptoon> WELCOME!

SECOND IN COMMAND> I nomminate Todd. He's already got the keys to the Queue.

Greg B.: Secretery of Defense? YOu are always ON the defensive... Just kidding. :)


Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Hi, Neptoon. Welcome to the room!
Doing some multi-topic posts here.

TGC wiki> Very funny. I didn't read-read all of them, but I really enjoyed laughing at the ones with pictures. Read most of "A Bronx's Tale", and laughed straight out at "Justice..." pics. Ooh, boy! Funny. And so appropriate for those episodes.

Me, I consider myself part of the clan, but a more subdued fringe member. I don't have much to say, but I'll give my random two cents on things that I feel like I have something to add. I tend to go for the biology discussions, but I rarely get what's in my head onto the screen correctly. Still, fun to read and take part in.


I consider myself the outsider, someone who belongs to the clan but is a bit of a loner and not entirely by choice.

In essence, the qualities of an anti-hero, so to speak.

KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.

Ah, cookies. The cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast. Now I just need some Sprite.

I'm an overly sarcastic bastard who keeps making jokes and movie/song references at all the wrong times. But that's a lot of people here. So if I had to pick a real talent, I guess I'm something of a clan scholar, since I obsess over grammar and punctuation. I actually bought a pipe recently, so I'm on my way to looking the part. ( ;

Greg B: Why the State Secretary? Why not the UN? Unless you have something more dastardly planned for them. ( ;

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Mmmm... roasted Goliath Chronicles. Tastes just like baby Greenland seal!

Eh, I think of myself maybe more as a gargoyle historian than a leader here. Glad you find me useful though.
That probably explains why I spend so much time on GargWiki...

Anyway, there really are a lot of great people that do a LOT for this fandom. I am part of this fandom, this clan, and I like to contribute, but i'm not one of the leaders. The people who built all these great sites and who work very hard to make the Gathering happen every year, those are the true leaders in the fandom.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

Sorry for the triple post>
Matt> Well I find you to be prominent here. I think you are a source of gargoylean knowledge ( at least for me) you remind me of things I have long forgotten in your posts. Plus we had the therapsid conversation a week or so back... I just would site you as a key player w/o realizing it.

Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley

No not Know
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley

oh yes Gorebash, he is in the running. But know one of us are anyless important. LOL Clan is Clan.
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley

Hm. I guess I'd be the token brute of the clan... the one who's almost down there with the garg-beasts. Just as likely to bite you in the arse if you cross me as to fish for scritches behind the ears. ;)
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail dot com]
I do not suffer fools, gladly or otherwise.


Hi, Neptoon! *waves*

On clan: I think of myself as a Random Clan Member. XD

And I'm with Spen; I'd lean towards Todd or Gore.

The Sadistic Cow
I believe the children are our future... unless we stop them NOW!

I always thought I was the Fandom's Defense Secretary. I chant "Fight, fight, fight, fight!" and kick sand in the Secretary of State's face ;)

... ahem, I will not be running for President in the year 2008 for any foreseeable reason. Foreseeable.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"And that brings us to tonight's word: Truthiness. Now I'm sure some of the word-police, the "wordanistas" over at Websters, are gonna say, "Hey, that's not a word!" Well, anybody who knows me knows that I am no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true, what did or didn't happen..." - Stephen Colbert

Justin> Thanks, but I'm not sure I'm fit to lead this clan, lol. Why would you think me anyway?

I'd say Greg would probably choose Todd or Gore.

What a funny topic!

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

I'd lean towards either Todd or Gorebash.
"Never put off 'til tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow" - Mark Twain

Matt> It's a toss up. I'd chose you, Todd, or Greg B.
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley

So who is second-in-command? Or must we prove our leadership skills to Greg?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

Neptoon - welcome to the room. feel free to take advantage of the fridge and pool-all the comforts of home and more here. (we also have lots of rafters to lurk on, as most of us tend to do from time to time ^_^)

As for the Goliath Chronicles, Most of us were just a Liiiiitle let down by them, as was the creator of the series who was only involved with the first episode. Anyway, The new comic will help remedy all that.

Although the discussions can sometimes get a little heated in here at times, try not to take things too seriously. We're a passionate lot and we love our Gargs. Hell, I'm a 10 year hanger on in here(and a 40 year old geek).


Neptoon> Welcome...I have beeen posting off and on for years and these guys still take my posts relatively seriously. Besides without being too sappy, we as a fanbase are not unlike Goliath's clan. We are a group of like minded individuals who share a goal, with our leader of sorts being Greg W. If you have love for the universe in your heart...

"That already makes you clan... family."

Join us.

Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley

Neptoon: Welcome, new guy! Enjoy your stay, and feel free to post as often as you like! The only advice I'd give is that, if you have a bunch of things to say at once, we prefer you say it all in one post rather than make several short posts. It's just more accomodating to the laid-back style of conversation we have here, and since it's not really obvious, I thought I'd let you know.

Why don't we have any written rules here? Should we write some down somewhere, so as to keep from confusing new members?

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- that's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender

After 2 months, it is finally complete. What may be my most challenging video ever, Gargoyles and all others.

First, I am insane.
Second, I never said I was fantastic at lip synching, though this is probably my best stab at it.
Third, this may have been a bitch to make, but it sure had a great pay off.

And of course, YouTube won't upload it for whatever reason...guess high traffic now or something. But I did upload it to Myspace Video. YouTube link coming soon...

And now I present to you...Gargoyles' Femme Fatales

Siren - [Click my name for my music videos!]

Welcome Neptoon! Post away :)
Siren - [Click my name for my music videos!]

Neptoon> You are more than welcome to post as often as you want. Welcome to the Comment Room, have a cookie.

*points to the cookie table*

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

Hello! I'm new and afraid out of the loop on all of these 10 year events. Gargoyles has a whole yearly fan convention! Holy cow! Well, while I AM out of the loop on that I am the hugest geek on the show and still know the latin spells, trivia, chronology, etc. Being a huge gargoyle nut and seeing these new comics and these chat forums that I didn't know about has really got me excited. I most eagerly await for more closure on Demona's end. I was very unsatisfied with the Goliath Chronicals, esp. the ending. This show really is what it is because of the three dimensionality of the characters most importantly the villains. I would like to participate in your discussions at least once weekly, if welcome. :) I know that it can be annoying to deal with someone out of the loop.
Neptoon - [Neptoon15 at gmail dot com]

Taina: Why not? I'm in the mood to damage my liver. Drop me a line and let me know what you're offering. We'll discuss. Though you can keep "Angels in the Night" (but I know you secretly want it, for reasons I can't fathom). But seriously, I'd be game. Might get my creative half's heart beating again.

Matt: I assume you were speaking to me, and the answer is: I actually liked the fact that Goliath responds to Angela's question about Demona ever finding redemption by not speaking. I like it because it reminds me that in the canon Gargoyles universe, Demona is supposed to have some sort of epiphany in our around 2198 (after both Goliath and Angela have gone to their rest).

Vaevictus: < Has Mimir died and Odin decided it should return to him? Is it because he knows the Gathering is coming and he wants it back before then? Probably this won't be revealed, but we can speculate.> As I said, he was probably just tired of tripping over shit. ( ;

And honestly, I used to think the episode was pointless, if you consider (as you pointed out) that Odin could have explained what he needed the eye for. But honestly, I like it more now, because it was a learning experience for Goliath. Now that I'm older and wiser (sort of), I find that exploring flaws in strong characters is interesting. We're all human (I know what that sounds like, but you know what I mean).

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Mmmm... roasted Goliath Chronicles. Tastes just like bald eagle!

Ummm...What is Kinky? I have been reading the rambles and aparently its somethink nasty...someone could enlightme?
Demon@ - ["The access code is Jalapeña"]

Eric Lewald... and Scott Thomas (Scott Thomas was Supervising Producer) were thinking of something alright... collecting their paycheck. Scott was the boss, so I'd hold him responsible for the creative decisions more than Eric Lewald.

Honestly, I'd be surprised if they expected the series to get renewed, so they didn't see it as a long time gig.

Just my opinion based on tidbits I heard over the years. I could be wrong.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"And that brings us to tonight's word: Truthiness. Now I'm sure some of the word-police, the "wordanistas" over at Websters, are gonna say, "Hey, that's not a word!" Well, anybody who knows me knows that I am no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true, what did or didn't happen..." - Stephen Colbert

In Norse mythology, Mimir wound up being killed by a rival clan of gods known as the Vanir, who had been having a feud with the Aesir (the clan of gods that Odin was the head of). They had decided to settle the feud by a sort of exchange program where Odin's brother Hoenir, accompanied by Mimir, would live with the Vanir, while one of the Vanir, a chap named Njord (the father of Frey and Freya) went to live with the Aesir. The Vanir were sufficiently impressed with Hoenir to make him their new chieftain, only to discover that he wasn't terribly bright and was constantly leaning on Mimir for advice; they became so exasperated, in the end, that they beheaded Mimir and sent his head back to Odin. Odin found a way of bringing Mimir's head back to life and would then ask it questions about the future. But with Mimir dead, nobody had custody of the Eye after that, I would assume.

"Eye of the Storm" reminds me slightly of "The Lord of the Rings", in fact, since Odin wanted his Eye back for a similar reason that Sauron wanted the Ring back; much of his power had gone out of him when he parted with it, and he needed to recover his Eye to return to full strength. And Goliath, when he dons the Eye to use it to stop Odin, winds up being corrupted by it, much as what would have happened if anyone had tried using the Ring to stop Sauron. The similarities are probably coincidental (for one thing, returning the Eye to Odin turned out to be the right thing to do, and Sauron would certainly not, had he gotten his Ring back, apologized to Frodo afterwards about sending the Black Riders after him, etc. and commented about being out of practice in dealing with mortals), but after seeing what happened to Goliath when he donned the Eye, I was left with a clearer idea as to just how the Ring would have corrupted, say, Gandalf, if he'd chosen to take it and use it against Sauron.

After hearing Odin's remark about being out of practice in dealing with mortals, by the way, I can't help thinking that it was a good thing for Goliath and Co. that they didn't run into any of the other Norse gods while in Norway; Odin was the only one of the lot who interacted much with humans in the Norse myths. If he's out of practice, just think what condition the rest of the Aesir must have been in! (I've sometimes wondered what would have happened if the gargoyles had met Thor and how they'd have gotten along. On the one hand, Thor was a protector-figure, like they were, but on the other hand, his favorite weapon was a hammer....)

I regard the tone of the Goliath Chronicles section of the GargoylesWiki with a certain caution - I think that encyclopedias need to have a more neutral stance of "Just the facts" - but it's certainly amusing. And I'd like to know what Eric Lewald was thinking, too (especially with the original ending that they wanted to use for "Angels in the Night").

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Just made my own little contribution to the "Bronx Tail" entry on the Garg wiki.

141 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"We don't fight, we all play nice, living in an Amish paradise. But you'd probably think it bites, living in an Amish paradise..."

sorry for taking forever to comment back...

Ok, then I read the synopses already, but I think I'll read them again just for fun!

And OMG those pictures for the episodes are hilarious!!! "The Hands of Manos"!!! BWAhahaha, and Large Marge from "Peewee's big adventure"! Classic

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"We're sitting dorks here!" - Broadway

BLAISE> "BTW, did Michael Reaves REALLY do a "spit take" upon hearing about "A Bronx Tale?" I mean, what's the full story?"

At the 2006 Gathering, Laurean and I were doing crowd control for the Radio Play auditions. Michael Reaves and his daughter Mallory were on line (Mallory played Puck in the play). And we started talking about "Gargoyles", and I forget how, but TGC came up, and Michael mentioned that he hadn't seen them and knew nothing about them at all. Mallory said she saw one and assured her dad they are horrible.

Then, I said. "They made an episode where Bronx befriended a little Amish kid", and as I said that, Michael was taking a sip from his water bottle and then he spit all over the floor.

As for the neutrality of those pages... I make no apologies! ;)

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"And that brings us to tonight's word: Truthiness. Now I'm sure some of the word-police, the "wordanistas" over at Websters, are gonna say, "Hey, that's not a word!" Well, anybody who knows me knows that I am no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true, what did or didn't happen..." - Stephen Colbert

Vaevictis> I think you may be on to something... are Banquo and Odin the same person? lol, I guess since Odin is on Avalon when Banquo is getting slapped around by Elisa in "NightWatch" kinda nixes that idea. Funny though.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

****Blaise walks into the Room. That's right--he just walks in through an open door like any normal person.**** Hey folks. I'm just a bit subdued today--the usual RL problems. Still some bright patches, though. Greg's responded to my Gathering Journal (and if you're reading this, Greg, my truck was parked in the hotel parking structure (I just know how to hide)). And, um...oh, yeah: I applied for membership in the Screen Actor's Guild (SAG) today.
Anyway, on with the show.

VAEVICTIS ASMADI> I don't think Goliath knew that Odin guided their skiff to Norway until after he (Goliath) had started wearing the Eye, so he probably thought there was still a reason to be there.
Also, yes I think Mimir is supposed to be dead in the Gargoyles Universe at this time. Anyone else know for certain? Greg? Todd? Bueller?
And I agree with you--things would have been a lot easier for EVERYONE if Odin had just walked up and said:
"Hi! Welcome to Norway! My name's Odin, I'll be your resident supernatural being this evening. Oh, by the way, could I have my eye back please? I really miss having depth perception."
But, if that had happened, then Goliath wouldn't have learned a valuable lesson about his own failings (and we wouldn't have had a story!).

TGC SYNOPSES> Hmmm, I guess the "Gargoyles Collective Sub-Conscious" strikes again--I re-read all those synopses on the GFW this past weekend (I needed a laugh).
Naturally, I can't help but question the...well, neutrality of these things. I mean the bias is pretty clear (these are just as much reviews as they are synopses). Mind you, I can quite understand why (and frankly there are some observations which point out particular problems in the eps that even I missed). I just find myself wondering how a visitor from outside the fandom will react (especially to the, admittedly humorous, pictures).
I do have to say that for some reason the name "Torgo" makes me laugh--especially in connection with that guy from "And Justice For All." It's STILL a better name than "Gang Leader."
BTW, did Michael Reaves REALLY do a "spit take" upon hearing about "A Bronx Tale?" I mean, what's the full story?

D. TANIA AND HARVESTER> Let me know when one of you does "Angels in the Night". That is one that (if I had the money) I would pay to read.

D.TANIA (AGAIN)> Well, you already know I love your synopses. I kind of figured that when you mentioned re-working the other ones you'd done, you meant to bring them more in-line with the tone of the ones on the Wiki. Looking forward to that.
Just one little nit:
I think that the line in "A Bronx Tail" from the Amish father to his son is "You are a great *trial* to me, my son."
I know it's kind of pathetic that I'm actually doing this for a TGC episode, but...humor me, okay. I'm a bit obsessive-compulsive.

ANOTHER TGC RELATED THOUGHT> It occurs to me that of the 12 episodes following the journey, 5 were written by GARGOYLES alums:
Adam Gilad ("Upgrade" and I think at least one other) wrote "Ransom."
Lydia Marano (writer and co-writer of some of the best 2nd season eps--like "The Mirror") wrote "Runaways."
Cary Bates ("The Silver Falcon", "Sanctuary" and more eps than you can shake a stick at) wrote "Broadway Goes to Hollywood", "Genesis Undone" and "Angels in the Night".
I guess this is just my long-winded way of saying that this seems to me to indicate the power a Supervising Producer and a Story Editor can have over the tone and direction of a series. I mean compare their work on GARGOYLES to their work on TGC.
This is one of the reasons that I would really love to hear Eric Lewald's and Scott Thomas's thoughts on the series and their reasoning behind their decisions.

Well, that's all from me. I'd best get back to trying to solve my problems (and not letting the ones I can't solve yet get to me). Until next time, farewell. ****Blaise turns to leave and falls through a hair-thin crack in the floor.****

"Well, it's nothing very special. Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."--Monty Python's Meaning of Life

Purplegoldfish: So far, they're exactly the same. I'm editing the first three I made because they're pretty neutral and I want them to poke fun at the episode. I hope to have the edits done by next week. I'm so glad people are enjoying these things!

I plan to write the rest of the synopses, unless HoE wants to do one. HoE, what do you think? :P

D. Taina - [<-- Gargoyles Imagery Resource]
"This is a job for the gargoyles!" - Elisa

Purplegoldfish> Those synopsis are the same ones that were at the GFW and posted there with permission of DTaina and HoE. I believe Taina is writing more. Gonna be fun.

I'm glad the TGC synopsis are a hit. The pictures added were my idea ;)

I figured, at some point, TGC would have to get it's own section, and well, I think the way we did it works. Certainly makes their inclusion more fun for me personally.


Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"And that brings us to tonight's word: Truthiness. Now I'm sure some of the word-police, the "wordanistas" over at Websters, are gonna say, "Hey, that's not a word!" Well, anybody who knows me knows that I am no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true, what did or didn't happen..." - Stephen Colbert

Are the synopses of the TGC the same as the ones in the GFW? Or are they all rehashed? I'm going to go over there now.

Vaevictis: Yeah I kind of wondered that myself, why goliath just didn't take elisa to the skiff and get out of there instead of just hoofing it through a dangerous blizzard blindly. You know, there's usually at least one thing that bothers me in every world tour episode. But all in all, I really like most of them (except "new olympians", "walkabout" and "Grief") I know these eps are very important for the show.

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"We're sitting dorks here!" - Broadway

Hey guys, is Odin the secret identity of the squinting blond guy who works for Macbeth? Maybe now he'll have two eyes, or maybe he'll just vanish.

Just kidding.

Vaevictis Asmadi

I'm glad you guys liked the "A Bronx Tail" and "And Justice for All" synopses, since I wrote them and all. ;) The "Genesis Undone," "Ransom" and "To Serve Mankind" synopses need complete makeovers, so if you guys want to read more, expect those sometime next week!
D. Taina - [<-- Gargoyles Imagery Resource]
"This is a job for the gargoyles!" - Elisa

*Comes in, snickering at the synopsis for 'A Bronx Tail' and 'Justice For All'.*

How often does that get updated? I'm dying to read review(s) of 'Genesis Undone' and 'Angels In The Night'.

KingCobra_582@hotmail.com - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.

I read the Bronx Tail synopsis, and it was indeed hilarious. I like the random silly pictures that you used in place of screencaps.

My thoughts on Eye of the Storm:

Odin was pretty cool. He's disquised as a old man, just as he does in the old Myths. I like that he considers bribery and mortal combat to be honorable and acceptable ways to get his eye back. It seems fitting and Vikingish. He *is* clearly out of practice dealing with mortals, though. If he'd just identified himself and explained that the Eye is his body part, and could never be used again once it was back in his head, Goliath probably would have given it up. Instead he uses a storm to try to kill Elisa, which proves to Goliath that he's way too dangerous to give this powerful artifact to.

But I do wonder, why they didn't just get back in the skiff and return to Avalon. It would have been certain to save Elisa's life. Since Odin admitted he and not Avalon is responsible (he blew them there with his storms?) for them landing in Norway, they don't have to worry as much about giving up on an adventure that was "supposed" to happen. But clearly they are more determined to do Avalon's will than that.

Goliath puts on the Eye, and now he can fly, and hovor, and control the weather. And I could tell immediately from the way he talked and behaved, even in the beginning, that something was up. He talked very differently. It seems that the Eye doesn't bring out all of a person's inner nature, but focuses on their flaws. Is this part of its "enlightenment" business? Anyway, Odin's line about that was pretty cool. I also like his "What I have lost in strength, I have more than gained in wisdom. That is why he gave up his Eye in the first place, after all.

I do wonder at the untold story here -- how did the Eye get from Mimir to Xanatos, and why has Odin waited so long to try to get it back. Was this just a convenient opportunity, when Goliath was sailing about with it? Or perhaps the question is, after giving it up in a fair bargain, why does Odin now decide to take it back? Has he decided it is causing too much trouble in the hands of mortals, and anyway Mimir has clearly lost hold of the thing? Has Mimir died and Odin decided it should return to him? Is it because he knows the Gathering is coming and he wants it back before then? Probably this won't be revealed, but we can speculate.

Vaevictis Asmadi

Hi all, just link dropping for MGC... New topic is up and voting has started, so head on over and see all the pretty pictures! *L*
kess - [< New month! go vote!]

What was that?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

What more needs to be said?

Although, I have to add that they did leave out the one thing I actually liked about "Generations."

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Mmmm... roasted Goliath Chronicles. Tastes just like spotted owl!

Ok, the TGC synopsis on the GargWiki site are HILARIOUS.

That's all I have to say for now.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

I know this comment comes a day behind previous postings regarding Disney and the continuing delayed releases of the comic book but I have a few things to add. First of all I don't think that what is readily apparent to all of us in the fandom, that the appeal of Gargoyles goes well beyond young kids, was ever clear to the powers that be at the house of mouse. I still don't think they fully understand the fanbase of the show, and truly underestimated grossly the continued popularity which has led to the successful comic sales. I'm not sure if they expected the venture to fail and never put the personnel in place to get the issues of all the SLG Disney comics approved in a timely manner, or if they are dragging their feet while their legal department goes over their agreements with SLG to make sure they are getting the control and compensation due them in this deal. Remember Disney does not usually agree to license its properties to third parties, and probably agreed to do so since they didn't feel it had value enough to take the risk themselves! It is my guess that it will be at least the fall before the comic gets released on the every two month schedule they had hoped for between Disney dragging its feet and start up problems being ironed out at SLG. Of course this is pure speculation on my part, but it is based on fifteen years of experience at a New York law firm dealing with these types of ventures and large corporations. Disney has never been easy to deal with. I personally can't wait to finally read new stuff and am eagerly looking forward to the next issue.
Susan L - [lotsoflabs at comcast dot net]
Susan Leonard

Gargoyles #2 comic>I finally got the comic (about 3 weeks after I ordered it in dec. UPS is stuck on stupid in my area, they didn't put the info notice on my door, so I never knew it was delivered 3 times and then returned until I contacted SLG). Overall I rate the comic an A- because of the fact that Golaith is a little bit too large on the cover, and his folded wings are drawn a bit too small. I liked the pencil artwork...nice touch.
Police and large sums of money>I took police studies at John Jay college and unless they changed the law in the last 4 years, they can't inpect your vehicle beyond anything within plain site without probable cause. Lets say you have a suit case on the back seat filled with 20,000 dollars, the police are not suppose to look in there unless they find evidence of drugs, weapons, ect. and let's say you have a serveral bricks of cash equal to 20,000 in your cup holder, they are not suspose to take it. They can enquire about it, but if there's no good reason for them to take it they can't touch it. But now you do have your "Cops" that don't "know" about the rules, and your money could be "taken". But why would you want to carry 20,000 in cash? that's beyond common sense unless you're going to pay for your next car upfront, and even if you do that, that's going to raise a red flag with IRS. If you do have to carry that much money you better bring something from your bank with you that can prove that the money is yours...
I know it's been a while since I've been in here....going to school for EMT-B sucks up alot of my free time...

kjay - [tigonesskay at yahoo dot com]

DPH: Just FYI, one of your tip-offs about it being myth should have been people getting stopped by cops for taking large sums of money to casinos. It's not necessary. If you're taking a shitload of money to a casino, the state will get all that money anyway. Might take several free drinks, but it will happen. As a wise man once said: "In the end, we get it all."

Vaevictus: I liked "Eye of the Storm," in particular William Morgan Sheperd's performance. I also liked the fact that it was one of the few episodes I was able to call. Right after the first act, I thought, "yeah, he just wants it back in the socket. He's probably tired of tripping over things."

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I could still pick winners, and I could still make money for all kinds of people back home, and why mess up a good thing? And that's that..." -Sam "Ace" Rothstein ("Casino")

OK, I really will shut up now.
I found in the Archives the answer that works though:

"Greg Weisman says:

New "episodes" of GARGOYLES will be coming out in Comic Book form from Slave Labor Graphics and CreatureComics.com. I'll be writing these issues picking up where Hunter's Moon left off.

Watch for the new issues in 2006!"

Vaevictis Asmadi

Sorry for the double post.

Actually, there's probably a better answer somewhere that identifies the comic book as written by Greg Weisman and as canon.

Vaevictis Asmadi

I watched Eye of the Storm. I'll probably say something about it later. Maybe. If I have the time. I started classes today.

TODD > There is a question coming up which has already been answered. It is a little ways up, recieved July 9, but it can be answered:

Lady Talais writes...

Greeting to you Mr' Wiseman,

I have been a major Gargoyles fan since the day it first aired and have spent much time in gargoyle chat rooms and on this site and others.
Now for my question, Recently I heared that there was talk of making another season picking up where season two left off and using your writing. Please is there any truth to this rummor? I was not happy with the changes that Disney made to gargoyles in third season and would love to see what you had written. Please could you let me know?

the answer is already available:

Greg Weisman says:

How about as a comic book?

Vaevictis Asmadi

Samuel - http://www.slgcomic.com/info-exec/display/shipping <- Release Schedule Page
http://www.slgcomic.com/category-exec/category_id/23/nm/Upcoming_Stuff_Preorders <- Preorder page
http://slg-news.livejournal.com/ <- slg blog
http://slg-news.livejournal.com/165473.html <- the thread about pre-orders/when gargoyles is going to be release

According to the blog, it takes "Two weeks after we send it them if we're lucky, three or four sometimes" to get stuff approved from Disney.

Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Hello, all.

Sorry I haven't been talking much lately, I'm sure you all sorely miss me (harhar), I just started college, so I'm trying to learn to adjust my time. :)

The SLG Site: How do we find the upcoming dates for their books? Ever since they redid their website, I haven't been able to figure out how to find it. So, if someone here could tell me, I'd be very appreciative.

Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Towson, whee!!!

Todd> Just so you know. Like last week, of the 197 questions left, a few them haven been answered already. Maybe you could rock some them out?
Justin - [justin dot lindley at gmail dot com]
Justin M. Lindley

Ok, I guess I misheard info. I still have bits of paranoia inside of me that were unleashed and I've never managed to contain.
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

DPH - The police can't pull you over unless you've done something to pull you over for. (Speeding, no seat belt, run a red light, etc). If you've done one of these, they pull you over and ask for ID, registration and proof of insurance (in California). Unless you give the police a reason to go beyond that (wreckless driving, potential drunk driving, made them chase you down) you just get a ticket. Give them a reason and they will search the car. If they find drugs, guns, large sums of cash (and I don't mean $5000... I mean LARGE sums of money), etc, then you will have a few more questions to answer. But where ever your money goes, YOU are going as well.
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson

I have friends and family in law enforcment. A cop cannot seize your money unless they have proof that it is conterfeit or you have drugs. They can ASK why you have so much money, but they can't do a thing about it unless you say you plan to do something illegal. Don't start another internet urban legend that will cause gullible people, like my sister, to tell me to worry about another needless thing in this world. I always carry a lot of cash on me. At least a couple of hundred. I have no problem with cops. I worry more about thieves.
Siren - [Click my name for my music videos!]

dph: I'm sorry, but I just don't believe you. I think you're repeating a story someone told you or half-remembering something you read somewhere. You said to "check the drug laws-" what drug laws? Do I just do a google search for "drug laws?" Well, heck, why not? I did said search and looked at each of the first ten links, searching within them for the word "cash." No luck. The closest I came was some links from the DEA website about smuggling large amounts of U.S. currency overseas- hardly the same thing.

So, the ball's in your court now. Until you show me a specific reference which I can read for myself citing a time when someone had a large amount of cash seized by the police without any other corroborating evidence, I'm going to assume that this is exactly what it sounds like: an urban legend.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"What? I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die- that's a compliment!" -Aang, from Avatar: The Last Airbender

I've heard of people carrying large sums of cash to a casino being pulled over and having to go to court to get their money back. I never paid attention to how much except when I was concerned about carrying a large sum of cash with to the gathering. In retrospect, I should have gone to the atm the night before to get a twenty.

Anyways, the drug laws for seizing property are crazy and it's horrible for all people.

Whatever happenned to simplicity?

DPH: The three times in my life that police have pulled me over, they only ever asked me for license and registration. How much money I had was never an issue. So if I withdraw a hundred dollars from an ATM, I need to be prepared to present a receipt? I'm sorry, but I think that's like arresting a black man on the "suspicion" that he's a gang member. Unconstitutional.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"You made me, remember? You dropped me into that vat of chemicals! That wasn't easy to get over. Don't think that I didn't try!" -Jack Nicholson ("Batman")

Thanks Greg B! That makes sense. I never really thought about it that way.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

You might want to define "large sums of money." Carrying a few hundred dollars is not on it's own going to create suspicion that you're a drug dealer. Toting around thousands in cash with no immediately clear purpose for it might generate some suspicion because it's not something most people would do, but the police would need some other reason to have stopped you in the first place. Carrying more than $10,000 in cash into or out of the country without declaring it *IS* indeed illegal and can land a person in federal custody answering a lot of questions.

143 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"I was driving on the freeway in the fast lane with a rabid wolverine in my underwear when suddenly I was abducted by some aliens from space who kinda looked like Jamie Farr..." - Weird Al Yankovic



A) You are incorrect, and police can not just take your money simply because you possess it, esspecially without some evidence it was gained unlawfully. Taking someone's money because it is possible it was ill-gotten but without any proof is exactly what it sounds like: stealing.

Or B) America has gone to hell.

I know the Drug War is absolutly stupid, and I know it costs us a lot of money, but I have a hard time beleiving that law enforecment officers can pull you over, notice you are carrying large amounts of cash, assume you are associated with the distribution of drugs in some way and just confiscate all your cash and never give any back! That's ludicrous! I mean I have never bought or used an illegal drug in my life and if I had a few hundred thousand dollars in cash (if only...) and I decided to drive around the country with it, I would sue the pants off any agency that tried to stop me or take my money. Now, obviously, no one should be so foolish as to drive around with all that cash anyway, but the point is that as stupid as the Drug War is, I can not beleive that it gives the police the right to STEAL money from innocent people without ANY evidence of wrong-doing!

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

If the police think you're carrying loads of money because you either)are going to purchase drugs or b)just sold drugs, you can lose it. Check out the drug laws. The way some drug laws are set up, police departments can get their entire funding just by keep raiding drug lords for their cash without putting them out of business. If you're carrying a very large sum of money with you, you better have your documentation with you to prove you acquired it legally.
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

You sure that's not an urban legend of some sort, dph? I can imagine being suspicious if you were carrying large amounts of cash, but I can't see how you could be arrested, and certainly not convicted, with no other evidence.

What? How is THAT legal? You can get your money taken away simply because you are carrying a lot of it?

So much for the Bill of Rights.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

Wow, 197 questions left in Ask Greg and counting.

For the record, I did have $3 in cash, but I was also carrying a debit card and checks when I left to go to the gathering. I've heard too many stories about people being pulled over while carrying large amounts of cash, only to lose it all because of drug laws.

Whatever happenned to simplicity?

If I ever for some reason licensed an idea of mine to a publishing or movie company, I'd make darn sure the contract gave me review and veto powers.
Vaevictis Asmadi

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

Hey, this hypothetical guy took my idea! *crumples up a crude, shitty drawing and eats it* ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"You made me, remember? You dropped me into that vat of chemicals! That wasn't easy to get over. Don't think that I didn't try!" -Jack Nicholson ("Batman")

BATTLE BEAST> Okay, let's say hypothetically, someone buys a license for Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck. They pay a big sum of money. Disney likes to make money.

Now, let's say the licensee decides they want to use Mickey and Donald in a story where they snort coke, shoot up heroin and take turns chanting their alliegance to Muqtada al-Sadr.

Disney wants money, but they still get final approval over anything done with their property, so things like the above scenario don't happen.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"And that brings us to tonight's word: Truthiness. Now I'm sure some of the word-police, the "wordanistas" over at Websters, are gonna say, "Hey, that's not a word!" Well, anybody who knows me knows that I am no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true, what did or didn't happen..." - Stephen Colbert

GREG B. Why do they need Disney's Aprooval to release the issue? I thought with a license you could do what you wanted. Enlighten me.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

D'oh, I meant sixth century.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I wrote a book on becoming a millionaire. The first page said, 'Chapter One: I get you to buy this book. Then you change the name on the cover and put it back in the book store, charging one more dollar for it than I did.' That was followed by 400 blank pages, some of them filled with pictures I drew of unicorns." -Sean Riley

Goldfish: I suppose as long as the execs don't have the same problem with signing their names as Hedgecock seesm to have with penciling, it's cool. ( ;

Vaevictus: One of the things I liked about Arthur was his attitude towards gargoyles. It was definitely unique on the show. In "Avalon," he doesn't seem to be too put off by being in a room full of them. Most of his confusion stems from wondering what everyone is talking about. But I think Greg has said that Arthur was familiar with him from his rule in the fifth century. Still, it's a refreshing attitude.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I wrote a book on becoming a millionaire. The first page said, 'Chapter One: I get you to buy this book. Then you change the name on the cover and put it back in the book store, charging one more dollar for it than I did.' That was followed by 400 blank pages, some of them filled with pictures I drew of unicorns." -Sean Riley

BISHANSKY (re Leo and Una) - Yes, I'd thought of that as well. (I should have remembered to include it.) That does seem to be a recurring problem in the Gargoyles Universe, given how Demona and Castaway notoriously suffer from it (and even Goliath slides into it in "Hunter's Moon Part Three" when he blames the Hunters for Elisa's death, forgetting who threw Jason into her to begin with).
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Purplegoldfish> That's the way it is with all licensed properties. The owner always has to okay it before it's released. Not just with Disney, but with every licensed property out there.

Honestly, I think Disney recognizes that small children are not the target audience for this comic, and won't take a red marker to each and every script... my only concern is them taking their sweet time to approving it.

According to the SLG blog, each issue gets approved twice. First the script, then the final drawn and colored issue. And it's not just Gargoyles, it's the other three titles as well.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"And that brings us to tonight's word: Truthiness. Now I'm sure some of the word-police, the "wordanistas" over at Websters, are gonna say, "Hey, that's not a word!" Well, anybody who knows me knows that I am no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true, what did or didn't happen..." - Stephen Colbert

Comic: I'm glad we got a date for the comic but am kind of annoyed we have to wait longer (again). Greg seemed pretty certain that it would be out in February in the second issue, but I know it isn't his fault.
I had no idea that Disney execs had to OK it...This strikes me as something very BAD.

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"We're sitting dorks here!" - Broadway

TODD> Also a lot of Leo and Una's anger came from guilt over not going with Griff and Goliath to fight the Nazis. They didn't want to blame themselves, so they blamed Goliath instead.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"And that brings us to tonight's word: Truthiness. Now I'm sure some of the word-police, the "wordanistas" over at Websters, are gonna say, "Hey, that's not a word!" Well, anybody who knows me knows that I am no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true, what did or didn't happen..." - Stephen Colbert

I think that the real point about the Lady of the Lake and Excalibur being in New York was to indicate that King Arthur's new role (as is mentioned a couple of times in the episode) is to be on a far larger scale, more planet-wide - that he won't be just for Britain this time. According to "Ask Greg", in fact, the New Camelot that he and Griff will found will be in Antarctica.

Note, also, while we're at it, that Arthur is awakened by an American woman (and one who isn't of British descent, at that).

Arthur's difficulty accepting the fact that he might not be meant to have Excalibur this time around reminds me a little of Aragorn's reluctance in "The Lord of the Rings" to leave Anduril outside when he comes to Edoras. (The next episode reminds me even more of "The Lord of the Rings", but I'll get to that later, after Vaevictis posts about "Eye of the Storm".)

In Malory's "Le Morte d'Arthur", Morgan le Fay steals Excalibur from Arthur and leaves a worthless duplicate in its place, then gives the real Excalibur to a knight named Accolon, whom she then tricks into attacking Arthur. I wonder if Arthur's immediately recognizing that the Excalibur stuck in the dragon statue isn't the real one is a case of "I'm not falling for that a second time".

I've sometimes wondered how Leo and Una are going to feel about Griff going off on a fresh set of adventures, so soon after he came back. I doubt that it'll be as bad this time, though, because at least they'll know where he is. (I think that a lot of their anger in "M.I.A." came from the fact that they didn't even know what had happened to him; they assumed that he was dead but they never found his body or any trace of him. Not knowing can be even worse than knowing that your loved one is dead.)

And I really liked the touch of Macbeth mentioning Findlaech too.

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Vaevictis Asmadi wrote: "Was there supposed to be a scene (in City of Stone) where Gillecomgain runs to his father after Demona attacks him? In the DVD his father is not in the episode, but there's a picture of him on the Wiki."

That's a scene from an upcoming episode that you may not have seen yet, so I'll avoid spoilers at the moment. (I checked my tape to find that scene - now I want to watch that episode!)

Thanks for your continued comments. I also enjoy the look of sheer joy on Griff's face at the end of "Pendragon" - especially since it follows the disappointment of Arthur's "only a knighted champion can travel with me now."

The "And I'm the Queen Mum" line reminds me of s short-lived commercial some years ago, when a guy says the same thing in response to some outrageous claim from a friend about whatever they were advertising - and poof, he's the Queen Mum.

"Boy, the city sure is different when it snows." "Yeah. It's colder." - "The Price"

At least this time the issue is done. We just need to wait for Disney to approve it. So, nope, I doubt it will drag on.

The sooner Disney approves it, the sooner we'll have it. It's all up the Corporate Masters now ;)

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"And that brings us to tonight's word: Truthiness. Now I'm sure some of the word-police, the "wordanistas" over at Websters, are gonna say, "Hey, that's not a word!" Well, anybody who knows me knows that I am no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true, what did or didn't happen..." - Stephen Colbert

Vaevictis> Gill's father will be in a flashback in an episode you havn't gotten to yet.

That's kinda a downer about the comic being late again. Oh well, as long as March doesn't become April and April doesn't become May, I guess I can handle it...

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

The issue should be out in early March. According to the SLG blog, it's done, they just need Disney's final approval before they can send it to the printers.

And in other news, if anyone out there is in the New York area, the Greatest American Ever will be appearing at New York Comic Con next month...

... I of course speak of Stephen Colbert

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"And that brings us to tonight's word: Truthiness. Now I'm sure some of the word-police, the "wordanistas" over at Websters, are gonna say, "Hey, that's not a word!" Well, anybody who knows me knows that I am no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true, what did or didn't happen..." - Stephen Colbert

Thanks, Greg B.

Comic news! I don't recall if anyone already posted this, but #3 is now listed on the SLG site for release in March. So it's delayed again, but now we at least have a concrete date.

It was nice to see Griff again in the show. I think his outfit has changed, I think he looks better than he did in MIA.
Also, the Trio and Hudson are so amazed at King Arthur and eager for news of Goliath and Elisa, that they completely MISS that a FOREIGN GARGOYLE is standing in front of them. The implications don't register with them at all.

King Arthur says he needs to set out to find Merlin, but first Griff needs to contact his clan and let them know why he's missing from London. He can probably call them at the store, but does the clock tower have a phone? He can't exactly walk into a payphone booth!
And Arthur needs some less conspicuous clothing. Maybe he'll ask Macbeth to loan him some?

I was looking in the Wiki and I really think that a scene was left out of City of Stone on the DVD. Was there supposed to be a scene where Gillecomgain runs to his father after Demona attacks him? In the DVD his father is not in the episode, but there's a picture of him on the Wiki.

Vaevictis Asmadi

Griff said "and I'm the Queen mum."
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Both Broadway and Angela will lean toward the Gargoyle Way. I understand why you think Angela would favor the human approach, but I think you're misinterpreting things. Keep in mind how she was raised. Three parents. Many siblings. There's a certain fascination with biology which I think is "human" and natural. But ultimately, I think love for the "eggs" would win out with her. How can she possibly love one "egg" more than another, just because she laid one." - Greg Weisman

On Pendgragon >> I don't remember what Griff said either, but I enjoyed this episode as well.

As for the reason why the Lady of the Lake and Excalibur were in Manhattan, didn't have to do with that ol' Gargoyle Rookery Nursery rhyme that Griff mentioned??

I haven't seen this episode in forever, and most of the details I had forgotten until you mentioned them Vaevictis.

Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]

I watched Pendragon. What an awesome episode! I love the King Arthur stuff.

I still wonder how King Arthur and Angela can speak English. Maybe the three who made him fall asleep on Avalon put some spell on him that he would be able to speak whatever vernacular was used in Britain when he awakened. Anyway, I like that he doesn't have a modern accent, because why should he. Although I guess like most characters in the show, he actually talks like an American. I suppose it would make the most sense to give him an ancient Gaelic accent, but that would be difficult to research so it didn't sound like a modern Scottish accent.

I'm liking the rambles, they provide additional insight in what was intended for the character's thoughts and motives. It makes sense that Macbeth hoped that he could take Excalibur, and give some meaning and purpose to his long and miserable life. But I'm glad that he and Arthur got to be friends in the end of it.

And why *did* the Sword and the Lady come to New York? It can't be just to include the Manhattan Clan, that would be a silly reason and not necessary for the show, since most of the World Tour didn't include them anyway. It can't be only to make Arthur leave Britain, either, because he'll have to do that to seek Merlin. I hope that Pendragon gets published someday, so we can find out the reasons behind it -- for I'm sure there is something.

Some moments that I especially liked:

*The garden maze is closed for renovation. After they're finished blasting holes in it, it will really need renovations!
*The dragon is amazing. I also like that it is a stone guardian, come to life.
*Lexington says "Brooklyn!" and Brooklyn thinks he's talking to him
*The Lady of the Lake rising from the water, holding up her hand
*Macbeth looks at the lightning gun, and at the sword from the stone, and then throws the gun down and uses the sword
*Arthur doesn't like riddles and mazes and suchlike. He's a more concrete sort of guy.
*Arthur can tell the moment he holds the sword that it's fake
*When Lexington grabbed the flying things, I thought he was going to use them to fly after the dragon. But it was way more clever that he used them as launching pads for gliding.
*The look of joy on Griff's face when Arthur knights him. Because for an English warrior/gargoyle, what could be cooler than being knighted by King Arthur himself, with Excalibur, and becoming one of his new knights? Yay Griff!
*Macbeth states his lineage when he names himself the new True King
*King Arthur breaks into the church with a mace. That strikes me as very funny.
*I like King Arthur's reaction to Griff. With one line he reveals much about his attitude toward gargoyles.
*Griff's reaction is great. He doesn't believe that he's King Arthur until the Stone speaks. The guy may wear medieval-looking armor and recognize gargoyles, but Griff still isn't going to take an enormous claim like "I'm King Arthur!" at face value. He says the standard witty response in reply, but I missed his exact words. It sounded like "Yeah, and I'm the Queen of (something)." Did anyone catch what he said?

Vaevictis Asmadi

And away we go on with the show!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Remember the old Gargoyles comics!

Question received on Thu, June 29, 2006 09:31:25 PM
Shawn writes...
"Since Thailog is the clone of Xanatos..."


Good grief!

Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Dang! Missed it again... well, at least I get my lucky number (again)...


Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You mean the police. Your clan." "Right, my clan... who'll disown me if I don't get to work." -Goliath & Elisa "Reawakening"

TENTH in the name of me and Chameleongirl!
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail dot com]
I do not suffer fools, gladly or otherwise.

Kaylle - [kaylle at ladyavalon dot com]

Once again, not adding anything useful, just dropping by to say...


Makhasu - [aknellthatsummonsthee at yahoo dot com]

Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Humans are such easy prey for a gargoyle!........and I need more friends on XBOX Live for 360. Anyone?


"Never put off 'til tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow" - Mark Twain

Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"We're sitting dorks here!" - Broadway

I claim this spot for Mars! :)

If all the world's a stage, then where's my script?!