Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

What we call the relationship isn't really so much an issue for me- call it a kumquat, for all it matters. I was more interested in this line of thought:

"Elisa had a physical attraction to goliath from the beginning. And really that's not that hard to understand. His face is human enough in appearance, he's tall and he's built...and his voice... Goliath is human looking enough for a human woman to be physically attracted to him"

I'm wondering, Elisa finds Goliath attractive, but is she thinking of him in human terms? For all his similarities, he's not human, but there's a temptation to see him as a human with wings. That's a temptation that people in this fandom have been quite vocal about avoiding. That's why Greg W. said he didn't want to start handing out interspecies relationships left and right. The reason why G/E's relationship is such a big deal is because they are not the same species. Some people, myself included, may get so used to these characters that we forget just how different they really are. The point I really was trying to make, before getting derailed into this discussion of nomenclature, was that talking about homo/heterosexual is actually a pretty small issue compared to what G/E have to deal with. I hope we get a lot of serious looks into how their different worldviews affect the relationship. I don't want it to end up as "what's the big deal, he's close enough to human?" I'm fascinated by the differences between them, and I want to keep that in sight.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"[George Bush] has created so many disasters, I'm not sure he knows which is which anymore. He walked into Walter Reed and said he wanted to have it ready for next year's Mardi Gras." -Bill Maher
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 10:54:43 pm EDT from 68.58.232.2

Since "homo" means "same", you could classify any human/human (or gargoyle/gargoyle) pairing as "homospecies." If you wanted a word like that, heterospecies would make more sense.

I'm not sure we really need another word though... Yeah, Elisa wasn't raised to imagine her ideal mate as a gargoyle, but human or not, physically Goliath has a lot of qualities that (some, obviously not all) human women find attractive. I'm sure plenty of viewers (female and male) found Goliath sexually attractive, including me and Purplegoldfish <g>. And, as several people have pointed out, interspecies romance is hardly unique to Gargoyles. Back in the 80s, there were plenty of people who were attracted to Beauty and the Beast's Vincent, too. "Normal," otherwise typically heterosexual women. Vincent wasn't the ideal they were raised with, either, but it didn't stop them from finding qualities in him that were attractive. Does that make them something other than heterosexual?
Kaylle
GargoylesDVD.com
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 10:05:26 pm EDT from 66.31.44.143

How about saying that Goliath and Elisa are in a Heterogenetic Heterosexual Relationship?

On second thought, why do we need to name this? We are being so human.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 10:02:37 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

they are searching for a word to name sexual relationships between different species...Maybe the word Homospecies would do?
Demon@
My only clan is the eco and darkness
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 9:38:42 pm EDT from 190.16.193.103

What are you guys talkin' about?
Tony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Matthew 16:26
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 8:51:29 pm EDT from 72.79.180.231

The words heterosexual and homosexual confer nothing about species. They describe only whether one prefers a sexual relationship with the opposite gender or the same gender. Goliath and Elisa have an interspecies heterosexual relationship. That's hardly unique in television. Captain Kirk probably had a hundred of them.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"I am Lord Vader, and I do not need a tray to kill you." - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 8:03:48 pm EDT from 67.38.241.246

About the whole Elisa and Goliath being different species thing. It's not quite the same as any real life example you can give. They're not the same species but they are both intelligent beings who can communicate with one another. It's similar to what you may see in other stories where a human falls in love with an elf or an alien. When two beings are intelligent and can communicate with one another it kinda throws a wrench into that whole staying with your species thing. Heck their are a ton of fanboys on the net that fantasize about Demona.

I think the main thing that makes this topic hard to debate though, is that you can't really use a real life example to it. We haven't discovered any intelligent life we can communicate with. Right now there are just humans and animals.
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at wowway dot com]
"Hello Booby, this is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard from Captain N
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 7:46:48 pm EDT from 69.14.122.91

I still find the original plans that the new production team had for ending the series almost incomprehensible. I knew that they wanted to make it clear to the audience that the series was over, but - having the gargoyles just give up and run away? A very unsatisfactory ending. (Though I suppose that having the gargoyles sacrifice themselves protecting the city from a super-villain and all wind up dead - or possibly trapped in stone sleep all over again to be awakened another thousand years in the future - would have been unacceptable to the network execs.)

It would certainly have made a very downbeat ending: the forces of prejudice and bigotry proving triumphant and the protagonists giving up all hope of ever making peace with the human race.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 7:10:12 pm EDT from 4.244.211.27

Sorry for the double post-I said that gargoyles and human share the same traits except appearance and culture...I forgot the egg laying thing ;)-okay biology too.

But Goliath is human looking enough for a human woman to be physically attracted to him-Hell, I think he's pretty hot myself. I would find it harder to grasp if, say, Elisa were attracted to Brooklyn or Leo. Also, Goliath and the others share the one trait that sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom-speech and higher intelligence.

Jurgan: "I feel like I'm on the edge of something profound here, and I'm having trouble getting it out. Goliath is not really "male" in the sense that Elisa would have been raised to think of a male- he's a different species. Had she, as a child, been asked to imagine a man she could fall in love with, she would have thought of a human."

And that's exactly why Elisa is so hesitant to go forward with their relationship, I think. I'm sure those thoughts have gone through her head. She probably doesn't understand it either. I kind of see what you're trying to say, but not entirely. Both of them have had failed relationships within their own species. They are just meant to be together-and in the Gargoyle Universe, it's always been planned that way.

Another thing to think about-While Goliath has always shared his world with humans, Elisa didn't even know the gargoyles existed until the night she met goliath. I'm not sure where this fits in, it's just an interesting observation which may dictate some of their thoughts toward each other.

Anon: now we're kind of getting into beastialty though-which doesn't apply to goliath and elisa.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 3:35:35 pm EDT from 64.12.116.200

"Elisa changed her name and moved to Chicago with Goliath"

LMAO! You know, I kind of wish they did do that episode for the sheer ridiculous amusement. I do find find a few episodes of TGC to be entertaing-in the same vein that I find some fanfictions entertaining.

Jurgan: That makes no sense...of course goliath and elisa are heterosexual-and both have been shown to have attractions to the opposite gender in their respective species. Gargoyles are sentient and similar to humans in all ways except appearance and culture.

Elisa had a physical attraction to goliath from the beginning. And really that's not that hard to understand. His face is human enough in appearance, he's tall and he's built...and his voice. I would totally swoon too.
And Goliath wasn't physically attracted to elisa until he saw her as a gargoyle in The Mirror. But they both always had an attraction to each other's inner beauty.
I don't think that either of them particularly wanted to fall in love with the other, it just happened. Love works in mysterious ways sometimes. It appears that Goliath has already accepted the fact that he loves her and wants to go along with it-while Elisa still needs to be pushed.

As for Alex and Lex...yeah, No. I'm all for Lex finding the love of his life-but seriously-Lex is like a big brother to Alex-that would be just be wrong.
As for Lex's mate-here's another thoguht. We have seen other species besides gargoyles, humans, and fae. What about New Olympians? I am intrigued by this trip he takes.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 3:10:54 pm EDT from 64.12.116.200

"How often do you see interspecies relationships?" Quite often, or so it seems if you watch Zoo documentary series. All kinds of creature going for other kinds of creatures or humans (parrrots clearly showing mating behaviour towards certain caretakers, up to the point of attacking anybody else when said caretaker is nearby.) Not to mention all the cats raising dogs or mice, or dogs raising cats and goats stories.

It is very seldom, but it does happen.
Anonymous
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 2:59:37 pm EDT from 84.184.97.90

"Jurgan, I think the "original premise" Greg is talking about there is the original TGC premise, not *his* original premise that TGC started from. He's stated quite vocally in the past that he opposed the idea of sending everyone to different cities, so I don't think he intended anything like that. So although you might have read that Lex goes on a trip somewhere in the archives, I don't think that particular bit can be used to support that theory, because that wasn't Greg's design."

That was my point, actually. I was saying that I thought Greg had, at one point, said Lex was going to have his own World Tour, and then I saw that that was in fact what the TGC people had planned, not what he himself had intended. So at that point I realized that Greg had not in the past said he wanted to send Lex on a World Tour. Sorry I didn't make it clear.

"Goliath is male, Elisa is female. If that's not a heterosexual relationship, than what is it?"

Something wholly unique. By calling it heterosexual, you're classifying it as belonging to the same category as any other heterosexual relationship. It doesn't fit into any normal view of sexuality because it is between two creatures who were never really intended to have a sexual relationship. Now, that sounds similar to arguments that homosexuality is wrong because it's a biological dead-end. However, there are plenty of ways in which an intra-species homosexual relationship can happen and has happened in many species. How often do you see interspecies relationships? You can point to horses and donkeys, but they are pretty closely related- a lot closer than humans and gargoyles.

I feel like I'm on the edge of something profound here, and I'm having trouble getting it out. Goliath is not really "male" in the sense that Elisa would have been raised to think of a male- he's a different species. Had she, as a child, been asked to imagine a man she could fall in love with, she would have thought of a human. The interspecies relationship is so different that it transcends ideas of homo/heterosexuality.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"[George Bush] has created so many disasters, I'm not sure he knows which is which anymore. He walked into Walter Reed and said he wanted to have it ready for next year's Mardi Gras." -Bill Maher
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 2:44:39 pm EDT from 68.58.232.2

Goliath is male, Elisa is female. If that's not a heterosexual relationship, than what is it?
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"I want to walk in their footsteps. And their footsteps were like this: 'Aaaaaah! Aaaaaah! I'm covered in bees!'" - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 1:55:17 pm EDT from 67.38.241.246

Briefly, because I'm supposed to be catching a bus... :)

Jurgan, I think the "original premise" Greg is talking about there is the original TGC premise, not *his* original premise that TGC started from. He's stated quite vocally in the past that he opposed the idea of sending everyone to different cities, so I don't think he intended anything like that. So although you might have read that Lex goes on a trip somewhere in the archives, I don't think that particular bit can be used to support that theory, because that wasn't Greg's design.

As for the download... lol! Talk about looking all over and completely missing something right in front of you. I looked at the Archives page, but I didn't check the FAQ....
Kaylle
GargoylesDVD.com
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 11:57:21 am EDT from 66.31.44.143

"Can anyone cite that? I can not find any reference to Lex taking a trip."
"Greg dropped that little tidbit at the Gathering last summer."

This is weird, because I was absolutely sure that I had read Greg making reference to Lex and another gargoyle (I was guessing Brooklyn, referring to Timedancer) getting their own World Tour. I knew I had read it somewhere, in a very old archive. Then I found this:

"In particular, the original premise of "Angels of the Night" (or whatever it was called) had the Gargoyles abandoning Manhattan at the end.
Elisa changed her name and moved to Chicago with Goliath. Lex and Brooklyn went on their own world tour . I forget what happened to everyone else."

Okay, so maybe last summer was the first time the idea of Lex's trip was put into the semi-canon.

"Way, *way* back when, you used to be able to download a zip file of all the AG questions and answers in one giant unsorted html file. I don't think you can still download this file anymore?"

Look at the top of the Ask Greg FAQ page.

"Has Greg ever DENIED it's Alexander? I mean, it'd be kind of disgusting, but Alex IS immortal."

Murder... Sorry, I just think it's way too weird. Specifically, I think that watching someone grow up, you could never really think of that person in a sexual context. My Dad's eleven years older than my mom, but he never met her until she was an adult.

"It'll be a nice day if it doesn't rain." "It's always a nice day if it doesn't rain."

If the sun is not too warm. That's from Quest of the Delta Knights (I think that's the title), which was attacked in one of the last seasons of MST3K (where's my damn cookie!). Notice, though, that in that code they have three lines, so that you know the first person wasn't simply making small talk. What's funny about it is that the code is supposed to sound like something that *could* be just small talk, so that if you picked the wrong person, he wouldn't think there was anything suspicious. However, many of the people in that movie rushed up to each other and said it with the utmost sense of urgency, thus making it clear something was up.

That says something about the Illuminati greeting, actually. Someone said that mistakenly walking up to a stranger and saying "Thirty-six" would arouse suspicions. However, notice that that's not really the first step in the greeting. With Matt, whom Hacker knows is an Illuminatus, he says it's just a formality. With Xanatos and Castaway, whom Hacker may never have met before, he shows them his ring first. A non-initiate would just think it's an odd ring, but X and C know that's their cue to give the appropriate greeting. The more I think about this, the less I think that this is a ranking system. It'd just feel fake to me that Greg only shows us the greeting when it happens to work out as 36/32.

On a wholly different subject, back to sex and romance. Is it really appropriate to refer to a person mating with another species as either gay or straight? Homosexuality appears to be caused by either biological imperative or an unusual mix of social stimuli (I believe it's probably the latter, but these social factors are so complex that I don't believe one could "cure" homosexuality, or that there's any reason we should try). However, in Elisa and Goliath's case, there couldn't be either a biological or social reason for being attracted to someone of another species. I'm confusing myself, here. What I'm trying to say is that their relationship is pretty close to unique. I'm sure Greg would say that there have almost certainly been at least the occasional gargoyle/human mating in the past, but Elisa and Goliath are probably the only pair alive today. Can they really even be called heterosexual, then? The differences between Goliath and Elisa create larger barriers than either of them being with someone of the same species and sex. Now Goliath had a pretty intense heterosexual relationship with someone of the same species, but I don't know about Elisa. From what Greg has said in the past, I can easily imagine that she was never quite satisfied with her boyfriends for reasons she couldn't understand. But what could those reasons have been? As I said, there's no way she could be predisposed to being with someone of another species. So why is she able to be attracted to Goliath? She may be anthropomorphizing him to some extent- thinking of him as a "man," when he's a gargoyle, but by this point I think it's clear that they have different enough views to belong to different species. They're also fairly similar, though. Humans and gargoyles do have a lot in common. It's just hard to get my head around this. Love is easy- they've been through so much that they care deeply about each other. Sexual attraction, though, is not something one has any control over. There are plenty of heterosexual human couples who are perfectly compatible but have no passion for each other. Many of them don't realize this until much too late, and they have a "happy home" with 2.3 kids, a dog, a nice house, dinner every night, but since they have no passion for each other, they're just going through the motions. Goliath and Elisa are obviously compatible, but I wonder what the source of that passion is.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"I'm coming!"
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 10:56:32 am EDT from 68.58.232.2

Silly people. :P Afraid of a gargoyle/third race/human hybrid!?! or is it just the latent pedophilia?! Okay, that's enough about that... Now to bring up something new (or not so new as tends to be the case) entirely!

...did the Emir sound like Hector Elizondo to anyone else? I mean I know it isn't, but at first I thought it was Hector (I watched Grief today for the first time in a year or so). Which befuddles me as I pride myself on voice identification. o.o (HEY! I knew Anubis was Tony Jay!? >_>)
Aldrius
I am Aldrius. Hear me scream!
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 2:59:44 am EDT from 207.112.73.128

Patrick, Aldrius> It's not going to be Alex. Greg said that Lex's mate would be someone we haven't met yet. Hence, it'd a new character.

Alex is not a new character.

So Lex + Alex = NOT HAPPENING. Ever.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 2:07:32 am EDT from 69.95.29.85

36/32> I like the pants size theory, myself. He's about a 36/32.

I agree with Gorebash: "secret handshake". Kinda like: "It'll be a nice day if it doesn't rain." "It's always a nice day if it doesn't rain."
A cookie to anyone who knows where that line came from.

Harvestor> Was that a joke? I don't get it.
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection>The Human Body: The Universe Within OST Vol 1 & 2
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 12:31:56 am EDT from 207.207.40.250

I think I'm repeating myself here, but...

Alex + Lex = DO NOT WANT!

61 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"I want to walk in their footsteps. And their footsteps were like this: 'Aaaaaah! Aaaaaah! I'm covered in bees!'" - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Sun, Apr 22, 2007 12:25:28 am EDT from 67.38.241.246

Well I don't think he likes him NOW. He is a baby... but hell, maybe watching him grow up will be how Lex grows to understand him. (Okay now I'm REALLY grossing myself out. Not because I'm homophobic obviously... just because of the parameters of Lexington loving a character that is currently a baby is creepy right now :P.)

Then again, maybe Lex's mate will just be some random Gargoyle he meets on a journey who we come to love! I just think the idea of a gay Alexander is fun. :P (Regardless, that kid is going to be the most uber character in history o.O)
Aldrius
I am Aldrius. Hear me scream!
posted @ Sat, Apr 21, 2007 11:37:20 pm EDT from 207.112.73.128

Aldrius: I dont think its normal for gargoyles to fall in love with humans, or all the way around. The love between Goliath and Elisa is probably unique.
Demon@
My only clan is the eco and darkness
posted @ Sat, Apr 21, 2007 10:14:51 pm EDT from 190.16.193.103

MATT> Greg dropped that little tidbit at the Gathering last summer.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Fidel Castro dressed up like Marilyn Monroe and gave JFK a case of syphilis so bad it eventually blew out the back of his head.
posted @ Sat, Apr 21, 2007 9:12:41 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

Lexington's trip> Can anyone cite that? I can not find any reference to Lex taking a trip.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Apr 21, 2007 9:07:57 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Are you thinking about the multi-trickster story mayhap?

Has Greg ever DENIED it's Alexander? I mean, it'd be kind of disgusting, but Alex IS immortal. And Lex ages half as quickly... so uh... it wouldn't be quite as gross? *Shudder* God I'm sick. :P
Aldrius
I am Aldrius. Hear me scream!
posted @ Sat, Apr 21, 2007 8:51:21 pm EDT from 207.112.73.128

MATT> Greg said that Lex goes on a trip. The word "journey" wasn't used.

KC> Um, cyborgs are not a race. And I think Lex will be long dead before any aliens who are not Nokkar appear on Earth. I'm betting his mate is a gargoyle.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Fidel Castro dressed up like Marilyn Monroe and gave JFK a case of syphilis so bad it eventually blew out the back of his head.
posted @ Sat, Apr 21, 2007 8:30:40 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

Greg said Lex goes on a journey?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Apr 21, 2007 6:55:17 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Demonskyre> I personally don't think Lex's mate will be a gargoyle, human, or fae. Maybe a cyborg or an alien. Maybe even a New Olympian?

But I'm waiting to see how this will be handled in the comic. Greg said Lex goes on some kind of journey. Maybe this is where he will meet him?
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Sat, Apr 21, 2007 6:42:45 pm EDT from 69.95.196.90

Well, I found what I think is the full text of the ramble in an old file on my hard drive. Way, *way* back when, you used to be able to download a zip file of all the AG questions and answers in one giant unsorted html file. I don't think you can still download this file anymore? Anyway, according to that, the rest goes:

"And talk about tragedy, how about Coldstone and Coldfire. I suppose someone could write a story about built-in robotic sex organs, but dramatically, that changes everything about their relationship. Yes, finally, they are together. But

Anyway, that's my Ramble for today. Sex, I'm all for it. But I suspect that a lot less of it is going on than we'd all like. Oh, well. Maybe that's why we have fanfiction.

RAMBLE, RAMBLE, RAMBLE, RAMBLE
(GDW / 7-17-98)"

So apparently that "But" really did go nowhere. But there's a line or two more.
Kaylle
GargoylesDVD.com
posted @ Sat, Apr 21, 2007 6:23:03 pm EDT from 66.31.44.143

Sex and Romance Ramble> The thought that came to me re-reading it (aside from "Hey, where'd the rest of it go?") was how exceptionally tough Lex's love life is going to be. Yeah, Brooklyn has to go to a completely different time to get to the point where he's not simply looking for a mate - any mate at all - but is actually choosing someone he wants to be with over anyone else. But Lex has a whole different set of complications. Drawing again from this ramble, I'm going to assume that Lex's mate will be a gargoyle. That's partly because of Greg's comments about how Goliath and Elisa's relationship needs to be something unique, which I agree with. Most gargoyles are probably not attracted to most humans and vice versa. So presumably, Le has to find a male gargoyle from the remaining population of gargoyles in the world who is not only gay, but genuinely loves Lex and is someone Lex loves in return. I can only imagine that if and when Lex finds someone who satisfies the first two requirements, both of them are going to have a lot of concerns about the third. "Am I with this gargoyle because I love him and want him to be my partner, or because I'm worried I'll never find someone else who wants to be with me?"
Demonskrye
posted @ Sat, Apr 21, 2007 5:33:55 pm EDT from 146.115.115.164

Jurgan> The exact same thought occured to me when I read it.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Apr 21, 2007 4:53:55 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

SPOILERISH

I hope we don't know what 36/32 means for a while. It may just be a code or a ranking, but I'd like it to be something deeper. It's been a while since we've had a good mystery, and we know so much that I'd like to see I could still be surprised.

I'd read that "Sex, Romance, etc." ramble before, and I thought it was dead on. Really illustrates why Greg is such a good writer. There is one thing that interested me:

"When they do talk, as I've noted before, I think they'll mutually come to the conclusion to break up before they ever really get together. In theory, Elisa still wants a normal life. They're going to have to learn that they're {sic} love is inevitable."

Notice how Greg says they "mutually" decide to break up. In the final version, it seems that Elisa is really the only one driving things. Goliath isn't exactly gungho, but he doesn't want to break it off, either. He seems much more "que sera, sera" about it, and is willing to simply go with the flow.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"[George Bush] has created so many disasters, I'm not sure he knows which is which anymore. He walked into Walter Reed and said he wanted to have it ready for next year's Mardi Gras." -Bill Maher
posted @ Sat, Apr 21, 2007 10:47:01 am EDT from 68.58.232.2

Kaylle> Yeah, I remember that ramble (hard to forget), and it was longer. No idea what happened to the rest of it. Greg did mention that his impression, based on rumors, is that in fanfiction, Brooklyn gets laid more than Hugh Hefner. A real change of pace to getting cockblocked... by Goliath ;)

SPOILERS

36/32> After much thought and consideration, I've come to believe that 36/32 is a secret code revealing the truth behind the JFK assassination. Check my sig, for what I've figured out. As to how I came to this conclusion, very, very long story.

Honestly, #4 should be out in a few weeks, hopefully we'll find out soon.

... or, they're guessing Demona's measurements. 36C sounds about right.

*** END SPOILERS ***

Demona in "Hunter's Moon"> I don't think she was testing Goliath. I think she messed up. Yeah, she's immortal, but patience is not exactly her strong suit. Nope, she messed up. She messed up big time. Hell, she probably thought Goliath was going for her when he leaped, not the statue.

TONY> <<If you all are interested, I've been trying to get a discussion going on the boards at theforce.net since 10/6/06. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a lot of Gargoyle fans on that site, >>

NooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo!!!!
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Fidel Castro dressed up like Marilyn Monroe and gave JFK a case of syphilis so bad it eventually blew out the back of his head.
posted @ Sat, Apr 21, 2007 3:15:11 am EDT from 67.87.175.245

I was wandering through the Ask Greg archives, and while I didn't find what I was looking for, I did find Greg's very old ramble on "Gargoyles, Sex, and Romance" (here: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=1 ). Actually, judging by the ID#, it might have been the first ramble? Anyway, it ends really abruptly there, in the middle of a sentence. I know I've read this before, and I don't remember it ending like that. Is there a "part two" someplace, or another copy of the ramble somewhere else, that doesn't end that way?
Kaylle
GargoylesDVD.com
posted @ Fri, Apr 20, 2007 8:54:11 pm EDT from 66.31.44.143

If you all are interested, I've been trying to get a discussion going on the boards at theforce.net since 10/6/06. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a lot of Gargoyle fans on that site, but that's one of the ways that I've been spreading the word. If you all want, we can discuss spoilers there and keep this site spoiler free. Here's the link. http://boards.theforce.net/science_fiction_and_fantasy_books_and_comics/b10749/25242512/p1/?6 Signing up is free. What do you think?
Tony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Matthew 16:26
posted @ Fri, Apr 20, 2007 7:26:48 pm EDT from 72.79.180.231

Avoiding Spoilers> If I may suggest, perhaps the guideline should be that until the next issue comes out, all comments related to the most recent issue include a spoiler warning. After that, maybe it would be nice to mention the issue number you're refering to for the benefit of CR members who are more than one issue behind.

That said, VA, there is unfortunately no way to guarantee that every poster will follow these guidelines and people who haven't read the new issue yet will reliably be spared spoilers. We do get new people in here from time to time and hopefully they'll want to discuss the comic. But since there's no good way to let them know they should ad a spoiler warning before they post and really no way to enforce the rule, you could well get someone spilling the whole plot of a new issue before you read it.

I think this would be easier to avoid if the room was switched to a more conventional message board format, but that discussion still doesn't seem to have much staying power.
Demonskrye
posted @ Fri, Apr 20, 2007 12:12:25 pm EDT from 146.115.115.164

Guys, is this 36/32 stuff from issue #3? I thought you were using spoiler tags so that the rest of us didn't have the issue spoiled? I spoiled most of the TV episodes through my own carelessness, I'd rather have a more "virginal" experience for the next comic, please?
Please?
Seriously. Since I'm not likely to be able to get *any* issue on time, now or in the future, I don't want to never come here ever again.
Please, please put tags. Please. I beg you.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Apr 20, 2007 9:37:28 am EDT from 138.192.30.169

Hacker uses the 36/32 greeting with Castaway, Xanatos, and Bluestone. If it really were about rank then those three would be of equal status. I find that hard to believe since Bluestone just joined.

A "secret handshake" sort of thing perhaps. Maybe the numbers rotate, based off the current day, month and year. Or they stay the same and it's more of a formality between members of the club.

Does seem a bit dangerous for Hacker to be walking around with his ring like that. Even if it's covered by gloves.
Gorebash
posted @ Fri, Apr 20, 2007 8:42:37 am EDT from 207.206.247.201

Patrick> When I first check the bible for 36:32 I found Genesis 36:32 and it didn't make any sense. But if you look at my last post below, you can see that it makes reference to Edom and according to another source, Edom is somehow connected to where the Illuminati was first created.

In the end I may be wrong, but that's the information I found, and I'm sticking to that theory until I am proven wrong.

On a side note, I do not dismiss the idea that it could be a ranking system. It makes sense that Hacker is in the 32nd circle and the rest are in the 36th circle. Hopefully in a future issue someone who we know is "higher" than Hacker says to him 32 and he says to them something like 29.
Tony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Matthew 16:26
posted @ Fri, Apr 20, 2007 6:14:37 am EDT from 71.173.49.79

36/32> I still say it's a ranking system. 36 levels, or circles, or whatever. And, I know some people think Xanatos wouldn't be the same rank as new members like Castaway and Matt, but, Greg has said that Xanatos hasn't been a member for very long.

Honestly, I think some of us are reading way too much into this. Hopefully #4 will shed some more light on this. Mr. Xanatos goes to Washington.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Sean Penn is a big mean jerk! And I hate you! I HATE YOU!!!!!!!! " -Stephen Colbert
posted @ Fri, Apr 20, 2007 12:17:06 am EDT from 67.87.175.245

Matt: Amazing what can happen in four years, eh? Heck, I look at some of the shit I said three years ago in the TGS CR and shake my head.

Um, did I say "shit" again? *sigh* Sorry, Blaqthorne.
Harvester of Eyes
"We all disagree, I think we should disagree." -The Strokes ("Is This It?")
posted @ Thu, Apr 19, 2007 11:33:29 pm EDT from 69.133.142.192

I checked Bible verses for all books with a 36:32 and didn't find anything that sounded like it had any relevance to the Illuminati.

64 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"Noah!" / "What?!?" / "I want you to build... an ark." / "Riiiight." - Bill Cosby
posted @ Thu, Apr 19, 2007 9:53:38 pm EDT from 65.43.179.157

Was looking at the CR archives of what was happening this week in years past.

Four years ago tommorow I wrote:

"well, like i said,my favorite is the Praying Gargoyle cuz i always found it cool that the Gargoyle race would have their own talisman. its also neat that it has so many things in common with the Gargoyles. it protects, it heals itself, and it has Atlantean origins.
i wonder what will happen to the pieces of it that Goliath destroyed in Hunters Moon. technically it is still on holy ground and even if the church is demolished it should eventually heal itself in the ruins, though i wonder if Demona will come back to St Damions for it... whatever happens, when a Gargoyle series comes back on the air, i hope the Praying Gargoyle gets more air-time!"

Kinda cool. To me anyway.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Apr 19, 2007 6:08:42 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

"Thirtytwo" - "Thirtysix":

I don't believe it's a code for illuminati members to identify each other as member of the brotherhood for three reasons:
1) Hacker already knows Matt's a member of the Illuminati, right?
2) In "Vows", the Illuminati apparently already have a special greeting. Admittedly, it might not be all that secret anymore after a thousand years. Then again, Greg Weisman emphasizes consistency. I don't buy that he'd simply drop a new greeting on us without at least giving us a hint.
3) I also don't think that Greg Weisman would make such a fuzz about just another Illuminati salutation.
4) It's too conspicuous. If the counterpart is not an Illuminatus, (s)he will definitely know that (s)he missed something: "Thirty-two." - "Thirty-two? Hey, whaddaya mean? Thirtytwo what?" You'd rather want to choose a code question that a Non-Illuminatus will simply consider a casual remark.

In particular, I don't think it's a mathematical code in which the first greeter hands a random code number to his counterpart, who then applies a certain formula and returns the correct reply. In such a scenario, the counterpart would never know that the first greeter is really Illuminatus.

Maybe they are exchanging messages: "Thirty-six ("paid your monthly fee already?" or some such)" - "Thirty-two (yes, I did)" or something like that. However, I have a hard time believing in that because then, Greg would show us different responses.
That's also why I agree it can't be rank: Greg would not mislead us by placing Xanatos, Castaway and Matt all on the same level, after all in that case there should be at least 36 different ranks.

So far, I have no really satisfying answer. Any more thoughts?
Gerin - [malte dot ressin at gmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Apr 19, 2007 4:22:29 pm EDT from 84.163.233.178

Yea, I don't want to ask anything that might spoilerish, but about understanding the past.

Of course, this question - http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=9393 - isn't about seeing the roadmap, but rather about knowing if there is a roadmap of gargoyle population dynamics between 1997 and 2198. I don't plan on following that question up with more details, and I hope nobody else does. My question about the clans with the highest/2nd highest number of members/eggs isn't about getting specific numbers, but rather about verifying theories how well gargoyles around the world have surived. If the NO gargoyle clan isn't at/near the top of either one of those, I'm going to be very surprised because that's the gargoyle clan that I expected to have the least resistance in terms of growth.

Some of the answers I've seen to my questions tell me not to ask certain future questions, specifically about gargoyle clans in North America in the past.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Apr 19, 2007 8:25:54 am EDT from 162.40.58.23

MATT - One advantage of your suggestion about "Ask Greg" is that it would mean fewer "ideas disguised as questions", though if people are still submitting questions about how one becomes a nurse (again, I suspect that they mistook it for "Ask Jeeves"), it wouldn't make that much difference to the people submitting the questions.

I doubt that the actual theories about the Illuminati out there developed by those who believe the Illuminati to be real (or who claim to believe that they're real) are likely to be that helpful in figuring out what the Illuminati in the Gargoyles Universe are like, since there is one crucial difference here. The Illuminati of conspiracy theory are straightforwardly evil, working to dominate and corrupt the world on the behalf of the Devil. I get the impression that the Illuminati of the Gargoyles Universe, while anything but saintly, are more misguided than evil - that they believe that they're doing the right thing, but are becoming unknowingly corrupted by the shortcuts that they've been taking.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Apr 19, 2007 7:32:42 am EDT from 4.244.210.209

Brigadoon> Now, that is a very good observation. I think you might be right.

And for the record, I'm thinking 36/32 is an identification thing too, but there is probably more to it than that. Of course, maybe not, and if so, I have no idea what.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Apr 19, 2007 7:00:28 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

Illuminati greeting> I think it probably refers to a ranking system and nothing more than that.

One thing I noticed recently; both Matt and Xanatos have Illuminati pins, whilst Hacker has an Illuminati ring. We don't know what Castaway has but I'm guessing that members of the same ranking have the same means of identification, so if he is in the same circle as Bluestone and Xanatos he probably has a pin too.

The Norman ambassador had a ring in "Vows", so he may have been in the same circle that Hacker is in now.

Mace Malone had a tattoo so I'm guessing that he was a higher ranking member than Hacker is.

Just an observation I thought I'd share.
Brigadoon Traveller
posted @ Thu, Apr 19, 2007 6:35:07 am EDT from 89.240.188.1

Tony> Sounds like you've done a lot of research on it... but frankly, asking Greg about it is probably a waste of time. Do you really think he is going to spoil the suspense and mystery of his own stories right now? It is clear that he regrets telling us as much as he has over the years, I very much doubt he is going to reveal what, why, when, how or who questions about the future of any characters or storylines.

This is why I think as a general rule, now that canon stories are up and running again (how cool is it to say that!?) the submitions to Ask Greg should be reviews of new stuff, clarification of details from previous stories, and stuff not related to Gargoyles. Plus anything Greg asks us to post, of course. Thats just my take. I think it'll limit the posts in Ask Greg by cutting out questions Greg is highly unlikely to respond to with an answer.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Apr 19, 2007 5:57:22 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

Harvester: That, or Greg is just REALLY, REALLY exited to hear our reactions to Issue #4 (which I can totally beleive).

36-32: I still think its a rank thing, but hey when Greg's at the helm, anything's possible.

Sig: Wasn't sure what to put there initially, but then I watched Willy Wonka again, and yeah, that's all there is to it . . . .
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, Apr 19, 2007 2:50:06 am EDT from 157.242.215.214

Hmmm.. it looks like I just experienced some blowback from Amy's question to Greg. I'm not quite sure how to take that.

Patrick: Me, I primarily like using the signature to shock or offend.
Harvester of Eyes
"Now I'm singing all my songs to the girl who won my heart. She is only three years old and it's a real fine way to start." -Led Zeppelin ("The Ocean")
posted @ Thu, Apr 19, 2007 12:43:50 am EDT from 69.133.142.192

I think Greg's purpose at first was to make us think that it was a ranking system, but they all use the same "password". So its purpose, is just that, a password used when talking to other Illuminati when they don't happen to be displaying their symbol - The All Seeing Eye. Do the numbers 36 and 32 have anything to do with the Eye? Not that I can find. The only number I can find associated with the Eye is 13.

But I did another search on Google and remember I thought I hit a dead end with the bible reference that I thought didn't make sense? Well, get this:

Genesis 36:32 "And Bela the son of Beor reigned in Edom: and the name of his city was Dinhabah."

Then according to a book called "Satanic Bloodlines" by Fritz Springmeier says the following:
"Esau hated Jacob and swore he would kill him (Genesis 27:41). But God loved Jacob and hated Esau, calling his descendants "The race the Lord will never forgive" (Romans 9:13; Genesis 12:3; Malachi 1:1-5). Esau compounded his sin by intermarrying Canaanite and Hittite Serpent seed of Cain's line, whose genealogy is not on the Book of Life as they are not related to Adam. Read the Talmud which concurs with the Bible that "Edom is in Jewry".

The "Red Sea" is so-named after Edom. Mayer Amschel Bauer honored his father Esau by changing his family name to "Rothschild", or "Red Shield". The founder of the House of Rothschild drew up plans for the creation of the Illuminati and one world government, entrusting Adam Weishaupt with its organization and development."

So 36, 32 could be a reference to Genesis 36:32, the birthplace of The Illuminati?! Once the "Ask A Question" section opens up, I'll ask Greg, and maybe we'll see if I'm close or way off.
Tony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Matthew 16:26
posted @ Wed, Apr 18, 2007 11:12:32 pm EDT from 71.173.49.79

**itty bitty spoiler**

Gerin> Except for the fact that the exchange takes place with Matt and Hacker as well, yeah, that's it. This pretty much knocks out my prelimiary theory that it refers to an Iluminatus's rank in the organization, since it seems highly unlike that Matt, Xanatos, and Castaway would all be of the sane rank (even if Xanatos is still a low ranking member).
Demonskrye
posted @ Wed, Apr 18, 2007 10:07:30 pm EDT from 146.115.115.164

Copy and paste? Hardly. You'd be surprised how much pointless geekery I can recite from memory. And in this instance I had to change some pronouns. If someone ever invents a game show that involves being able to recall movie quotes and song lyrics, I'm going to be a millionaire. :P

Gerin > Yes, that's it. It happens in the span of a few seconds, like an exchange of "Marco!" / "Polo!"

(Still) 65 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"Beware the fisherman who's casting out his line into a dried up riverbed, but don't try to tell him 'cause he won't believe you." - Genesis, "Heathaze"
posted @ Wed, Apr 18, 2007 6:53:56 pm EDT from 65.43.179.157

Completely Off Subject: Honestly, I was getting really curious to see how Greg would react to that "Qualified Nurse" question. But then again, I'm kinda curious about a lot of things . . . .
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Apr 18, 2007 6:17:28 pm EDT from 157.242.218.225

I haven't read the comics yet, so I must ask: how exactly does this 36-32-greeting work? Hacker says "Thirty-six", Xanatos/Castaway answers "32" and that's it? Did this happen on the same day, on the same occasion?

I have a few ideas what that could mean, but first I need someone to confirm that I got the idea right and I won't be able to get the comics for another two months.
Gerin - [malte dot ressin at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Apr 18, 2007 2:00:54 pm EDT from 84.163.250.180

Ever since I saw the movie "23," I have been seeing the number "321" everywhere. I am a cashier and I get totals like, "$123.00" or "231.00" or "243.21" ALL the time. It's quite scary how much i notice those numbers come more frequentl;y since I saw the movie.

No fooling!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Wed, Apr 18, 2007 11:54:27 am EDT from 142.59.132.201

Jurgan> Thats a cool thought about Coyote. And it definitly fits in with what we know about Coyote in the future (Coyote X). Xanatos has to lose control of him at some point.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Wed, Apr 18, 2007 10:01:39 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

Patrick: I got the reference, but I've never seen Kim Possible. Even if I had, it was just copy-and-paste, so I don't think I'd find it that funny anyway.

Being a mathematician, I'm tempted to look for numerological significance to 36/32. Yeah, 36 is triangular and 32 is a power of 2. 36 is also a square. However, if you start down that road, you can find "signficance" to any numbers. Moreover, I don't think that's how Greg's mind works. He's said many times that he's "not into quantifying things" and "doesn't think that way." I personally was hoping there was some way to decode them into a signficant date, like the year the Illuminati was founded (642), but I can't see how. It may be a date, though I can't see what. Or it may be a reference to something literary, or it may just be some random numbers. Since it's mainly used for purposes of security, it could really be anything that they agreed upon.

As for Coyote: I remember speculating once that the reason he forms the Ultra-Pack is because his "programming for vengeance" gets out of hand. He has to go after the gargoyles, but now that Xanatos is protecting them, that puts him in conflict with his original creator. Maybe Xanatos recreates him for whatever reason and then loses control.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Apr 18, 2007 9:41:41 am EDT from 153.9.83.136

Apparently the new rule here in the Comment Room is that if someone makes a joke and you don't get it, you are stupid, and if you DO get it, but don't laugh you are rude... swell.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Wed, Apr 18, 2007 7:50:15 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

B&CF > I'm glad *somebody* around here got it.

36/32 > For all we know, the only significance here could be that it's Greg Weisman's pants size.

65 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"I shall hold the world for ransom for... one MILLION dollars." - Dr. Evil
posted @ Wed, Apr 18, 2007 7:02:25 am EDT from 65.43.179.157

Tony - I found a significance to the number 36 in that it is a triangular number, specifically the *8th* triangular number. Now if you look at powers of 2, 32 is the *5th* power of 2, which is interesting if you add up the digits of 32, you also get the number 5. Either way, we aren't getting the answer to the significance of 36, 32 for a while from Greg Weisman.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Apr 18, 2007 2:34:36 am EDT from 98.16.202.159

Patrick> Isn't that, almost word for word, the exchange between Scott and Dr. Evil in either the first or second Austin Powers movie?
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: Final Fantasy XI OST
posted @ Tue, Apr 17, 2007 11:29:28 pm EDT from 63.20.60.254

Phew! I totally missed the 36, 32 reference. Funny too, because I was doing research to see if it was a bible reference or a latitude/longitude reference. Neither made any sense so I'm counting those out.
Tony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Matthew 16:26
posted @ Tue, Apr 17, 2007 11:04:04 pm EDT from 71.181.140.26

Matt, HoE> I also like the parallel between Coyote-robot and Wile E.

Matt> It's been a while since I've seen, so I could be wrong, butI don't recall any mention of Coldstone in that episode.
Asatira
posted @ Tue, Apr 17, 2007 9:56:53 pm EDT from 68.190.27.55

HofEyes> Greg has said that Coyote DOES seem to have a bit of Wile E. Coyote in him given the fact that he is destroyed in some fasion at the end of every episode. I still wanna know who the new member of the Ultra-Pack is going to be and what his/her name will be. I still think Coldsteel should join and call himself Beast. Afterall, we do know that Coldsteel will have some sort of relationship with Coyote. It'd be neat to see Coldstone and Coldfire take on the Ultra-Pack.

Hmmm, didn't Puck's vision include a line about Coldstone being beaten by the Ultra-Pack?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Tue, Apr 17, 2007 7:56:57 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Just wanted to share a theory on the Ultra-Pack.

Apparently, Coyote 6.0 forms it and Coyote 7.0 leads it. I'm wondering if the other members of the team rebelled against 6.0 because the robot possessed a malfunction that made him obsessed with catching road runners. Every one of his plans involved some elaborate Rube Goldberg method of trying to trap them. Eventually, even Hyena gets tired of 6.0's shit, and so they all destroy him. I guess time will tell.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Your psychotronic profile indicates high levels of destructive impulse, which may be why I find you so much fun to keep around. My own psychotronic profile is... well, never mind about that now." -Durandal
posted @ Tue, Apr 17, 2007 7:17:46 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

Hi all just been reading Greg latest responses. He said that issue 7 will be a cast of thousands - That will be wicked to see I wonder who be on it.

Still waiting for my copy of issue 3 to come through the post, i'm hoping it's this week. I bought 2 copy's one from SLG and one from ComicsNow, I think next time i'll use silverbulletcomics.com
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Tue, Apr 17, 2007 5:03:49 pm EDT from 195.93.21.4

Harvester of Eyes...I need to get the comics too. Hopefuly I will be able to watch the show over the summer...It has been long enough that it should be very enjoyable.
Sah
posted @ Tue, Apr 17, 2007 3:36:51 pm EDT from 67.107.64.64

Tony> You missed the joke entirely.

Read #3 yet?
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Tue, Apr 17, 2007 1:47:36 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

Well, Todd, I was briefly looking at the Comment Room Archive and around the 33 day mark until the Gathering 2006, people seemed real excited about the release of Gargoyles #1. So I think around the 30ish day mark this year people will be discussing #4 and looking forward to #5 in July.
Tony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Matthew 16:26
posted @ Tue, Apr 17, 2007 1:41:15 pm EDT from 71.181.140.26

I wonder what the comment room will be like when it's 36 days to the Gathering - or 32. :)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Apr 17, 2007 8:11:34 am EDT from 4.244.211.118

Here's a scene that was cut from the "Kim Possible" movie:

* * * * *

Shego: Why are you telling her your plan? Why don't you just kill her?

Drakken: In due time.

Shego: But what if she escapes? Why don't you just zap her? What are you waiting for?

Drakken: I have a better idea. I'm going to put her in an easily-escapable situation involving an overly-elaborate and exotic death.

Shego: Why don't you just shoot her now? I've got a gun in my room. I'll go get it. We can shoot her together. Bang! Dead. Done.

Drakken: One more peep out of you and you're grounded. Let's begin.

* * * * *

66 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"Begin the unnecessairly slow-moving dipping mechanism!" - Dr. Evil
posted @ Tue, Apr 17, 2007 7:01:30 am EDT from 65.43.179.157

Patrick/Phoenician> Or Animaniacs.
"Polka Dot?"
*exits crooning "Anvilania. Anvilani-ya-ah. Anvila-a-a-nia-a."*
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: Someday's Dreamers OST
posted @ Tue, Apr 17, 2007 12:24:44 am EDT from 63.20.60.68

HofEyes> Greg has said that all the uses of the Praying Gargoyle are geared towards "protecting the protectors". Demona has used it to awaken stone gargoyles and was going to use it to protect gargoyles from the plague, I'm sure there are other uses for it.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 11:22:35 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

:( my stupid comic store wont bring an issue of gargoyles here :C I think i will wipe out all the stupid comic stores >:C.
Demon@
And yeah, there is still hope!!
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 10:20:54 pm EDT from 190.16.193.103

PHOENICIAN - Yes, I can just see Dr. Drakken indulging in it and She-Go protesting to him that telling the heroes your plans is one of the biggest mistakes that you can make when you're a super-villain - only to be completely ignored until it's too late.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 8:02:47 pm EDT from 4.245.18.181

"Anyone who's ever watched a James Bond movie knows this."

Or Kim Possible -- they make fun of this "villain tradition" all the time!
Phoenician - [theoneandonlyphoenician at yahoo dot com]
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 7:44:13 pm EDT from 157.242.215.160

Sah: Feel free to bring the topic up again once you're rewatched some of the episodes.

***possible spoilers***
Suddenly, I feel retarded. I had thought that Jason didn't know that the "someone" was Goliath, but he IS pretty shrewd. Should have known better than to take what a character in the Gargoyles universe says at face value. Or it could be he has suspicions, but doesn't fully realize.

Brigadoon: <Personally I like the back story exposition of the mutates and the clones; granted I would have loved two pages of new stuff but if it helps out new readers understand then so be it.> I've come to accept that the first crop of issues is probably going to be like that. One of the things I find interesting, for people whose memories of the show might be hazy, is that we've already seen Demona before having any exposition on her. Could work as an incentive to keep new readers interested.

Matt and Todd: Has Greg ever hinted if that crystal has any other properties?

***end spoilers***

Greg B: Okay, that'll be five bucks. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Don't thank God. Quit while you're ahead." -Jack Hamilton (Philip K Dick's "Eye In The Sky")
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 7:43:40 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

The villain is always contractually obligated to explain his or her evil plot to the hero before taking the final step. Anyone who's ever watched a James Bond movie knows this.

67 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"I shall hold the world for ransom for... one MILLION dollars." - Dr. Evil
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 5:33:51 pm EDT from 65.43.179.157

It is really horrible that people can't get the comic...IT makes me so mad.
As for the new comic...I love it..want more..... can't wait for it

Only bad thing is Elisa is not drawn well. Or at least not as she did in the show.
Rosanna - [rosannacrawford at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 5:22:30 pm EDT from 68.120.149.194

Brigadoon> Yeah, those shots of Terry and Sphinx came from the New Olympians pitch. Come to the Gathering to see it.

And Sphix make look a little like a gargoyle, but she's not a gargoyle.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 4:54:34 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

Spoiler tags> Sorry I should have known that others might not have the comic considering I had to wait so long for mine. Sorry if I spoilt it for anyone.

*************Potential Spoilers*****************

Matt> I think you're right that she does love her life with the gargoyles, but at times I think she feels that she might have been better of had she not met them. I'm really only basing this from what I remember of "High Noon" - and it's been sometime since I last saw that. And I'm not saying she feels this all the time - but only on the rare occasion when real life catches up with her, like Morgan's mentioning of the precinct picnic or her lack of sleep due to double shifts in "High Noon"

***************End Spoilers***************

In other news; I noticed on the Gargoyles Wiki that there were some pictures of some of the characters from the New Olympians spin-off, such as Sphinx and Terry. Are these pictures canon and who drew them? I presuming if they are canon that they were part of a pitch for the spin-off? If so, I didn't know that production of the series had gotten that far. I was also a bit surprised by sphinx's appearance...

****Potential Spoilers again for New Olympians****
She looks awfully like a gargoyle. For some reason I envisioned her as being on all fours and not bipedal - with a more cat-like body shape.

****End potential spoilers****
Brigadoon Traveller
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 4:44:38 pm EDT from 89.240.129.34

Yes, please put tags at the top *and* bottom of spoilers.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 4:37:23 pm EDT from 138.192.24.89

If I must.. **************SPOILERS***************

Brigadoon> "...she would much rather have preferred to live out normalcy and all the perks that that comes with - a house with a yard and kids etc than have investigated those falling rocks from the Eyrie building all the way back in "Awakening"."
- I dunno about that. She outright says she wouldn't trade her life as a gargoyle loving cop for anything. I think she loves having the gargoyles as friends and loves the life that has openned up for her. I think a part of her, however, does wish she hadn't fallen in love with Goliath. Had she not fallen for him, the kids and the yard and the picnics could've all been possible.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 2:19:46 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Everyone discussing #3, use Spoiler tags.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"I am The Decider!" - President George Walker Bush
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 1:22:22 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

Can we keep the spoilers for #3 to a minimum please? There are those of us STILL on a rather long waiting list. As it is, it'll be well into May before I'll have my copy thanks to the shortage. :(
Vertigo1
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 1:20:43 pm EDT from 67.128.254.73

Finally got my copy of #3 (yeah!!!)… And I have to say that I love every single moment of this brand new canon story. 11 years of waiting (more like 7 for me as I first started to watch the series properly back in 2000) and finally we have new Gargoyles stories.

I love the opening sequence - the Xanatos family playing happy families makes a beautiful picture perfect opening.

Elisa and Goliath> Elisa does a big 180 here by going from saying "Funny, I feel the exact same way" in response to Goliath's feelings in "The Journey" to the next night saying that they need to break up. But does it feel contrived? No not in the least - why? because Elisa's suddenly realised that she doesn't live in a fantasy world where she can realistically play guardian angel with Goliath night after night and at the same time balance that with her job at the precinct during the day. Like we saw in "High noon" Elisa just wants a normal life - she would much rather have preferred to live out normalcy and all the perks that that comes with - a house with a yard and kids etc than have investigated those falling rocks from the Eyrie building all the way back in "Awakening".

Throughout the day she's had reminders from people she feels close to that there is a whole different life outside of the gargoyles that she has to live and there's no way she can combine the two. I'm sure she would have loved to have brought Goliath to the precinct picnic but there's no chance at all that she ever would or even could for that matter.

The night before she and her "boyfriend" (it feels so weird calling Goliath her boyfriend - I suppose in the same vein that Goliath makes the distinction between husband and mate) were chased by racially motivated zealots who not only tried to kill her, but nearly succeeded. Goliath was badly injured in that battle and it looks like she took a nasty blow from Castaway's hammer as well. But the difference between the two is that whilst Goliath can hide up in the castle and heal throughout the day, Elisa has to attend to her career with all the paperwork, liaisons and meetings that come with it, bruises and all.

Morgan with his simple look of surprise at her hiding this guy she's supposedly involved with shows her that despite the fact that she's acknowledging that she has been involved with Goliath for a couple of years, she could never, at least not any time soon, come out with him in public at any time other than Halloween. For all we know, she could have been planning to spend her night off with Goliath on the streets of New York on the one night where she could pretend things were normal. But what about the night after that? And the months and the years after that? Where does Goliath fit in with her idealistic view of her future? She wants kids - and not half gargoyle, half human kids - kids that she can take to school and show off to her friends and drive to football practice with their friends. Unfortunately she can't do that with Goliath's kids.

Then we have her meeting with Jason. I'm sure she didn't stay long with him - but in that brief moment he showed her that again her other half was a mystery to her friends; he probably has an inkling that it might have been Goliath and that's probably what he's alluding to when he talks of the man that can give her everything she's wanted. (I have a feeling though that he hasn't even thought about Goliath being her boyfriend and is referring to himself in that speech - in that he feels he can't give her everything she wants and telling her to stick with her boyfriend who he presumes to be human. Considering that up until a few nights ago Jason thought that all gargoyles were evil demons and even though he has reformed and changed his views I doubt that even the thought of a cross-species relationship has occurred to him. Prejudices sometimes are hard to remove and I doubt that Jason has done it overnight. It could produce some interesting friction down the line in his and Elisa's friendship if he does find out. Presuming he hasn't already figure it out.)

The feel nail in the Goliath Elisa coffin is I think when Jason grasps Elisa's hand. I'm sure some of the feelings she had for him are still there, probably making her realise that if she could be attracted to Jason, she could still find someone within her own species who could provide her with everything that Goliath can't.

I suppose though that the Xanatos family in the opening pages provide a counterpoint to Elisa's argument. If an amoral billionaire who is obsessed with immortality and is driven by his desire for power, influence and domination coupled with an ex-TV star/Halfling who both spent their honeymoon in 10th century Scotland can have a normal family, then why can't she?

But like she did in "High Noon" I'm sure Elisa will realise during the course of this double date that it doesn't matter whether she wanted to be thrown into the world of the gargoyles, what matters is that they need her and more especially Goliath needs her just as much as she needs him. But that remains to be seen.

Anyway onto the rest of the issue; Hacker playing everyone - loving it. Can't wait to find out what the Illuminati really want with the gargoyles.

Personally I like the back story exposition of the mutates and the clones; granted I would have loved two pages of new stuff but if it helps out new readers understand then so be it. Is that a growing Thailog in the background in the first panel with Sevarius? I like that continuity.

And finally… He's back!!! Thailog is back and I'm sure with a vengeance! I'm sure he's come back for nothing more than to collect his property. He probably sees the clones as an investment - one that he probably feels Talon is polluting with his education. I doubt Talon's had much of an influence on them though; they've only been down there for two weeks, but it'll be interesting to see what their reaction to Thailog will be.

Goliath and Delilah luckily are out of sight on their way to the Castle. Speaking of which, has Elisa actually gone down into the labyrinth to see Delilah? I don't think she has, but does anyone else know if she has? If not that means that the first time she'll see her will be with Goliath. Now that's going to make things awkward!

I have to say the art on the whole absolutely stunning on some pages (when Goliath and Elisa are having "the conversation" Goliath looks amazing; wish I could say the same about Elisa though - she looks like an old hag in some of the panels). Hedgecock brilliantly captures the emotion and the pain on Goliath's face - his shock when Elisa says their feelings "are not enough" is priceless. One tiny little point I have to say which really won me over - the moon in the background… it's not full! And so it shouldn't be considering that the hunter's moon was a week ago. This is the kind of continuity that I hope can be carried on throughout the comic book's run.

I especially love the cliffhanger ending - Thailog never looked better!

No review would be complete without mentioning Demona's cameo. No dialogue, one page only - but it sets up so much for future stories. Demona's up to something no doubt about it. I like that even after Operation Clean slate fails, a plan that she hatched for 500 years, she's still planning new schemes a few nights later.

On the whole a brilliant issue 5/5
Brigadoon Traveller
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 11:49:57 am EDT from 84.13.96.33

I wonder if we will see the Atlantean Crystal again anytime before 2056. I wonder if Demona can use it to do anything else. I wonder where she plans on taking it too.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 8:45:24 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

Another factor in the Praying Gargoyle stand-off: at this point, the existence of gargoyles had been revealed to the world, and in a way which made them look like dangerous threats. Demona would certainly believe that now she *had* to wipe out humanity before they could slaughter the last few gargoyles left, that it was as much a matter of self-preservation (for her species as well as for herself) as of revenge. She may have honestly believed that Goliath would not be foolish enough to stop her and thereby condemn himself and his clan to be hunted down by humans in the aftermath of the Hunter's Moon. (I just know that Demona's going to be taking advantage of the Quarryman situation to tell Goliath and his clan "See what you brought about when you stopped me. If you hadn't smashed the Praying Gargoyle, they'd all be gone and you wouldn't have to worry about them killing you in your stone sleep.")

HARVESTER - Interesting question. Though Demona might believe that, now that the human world knows about gargoyles again (and they've got much better weaponry and communications systems than the humans of the Dark Ages did, meaning that it'd be easier for them to wipe out the entire species than it was them), the gargoyle race would be fortunate to last even another five years. (Though, even if she was the only gargoyle left sixty years from now, she'd still wipe out humanity if she could, simply to have her revenge - and maybe with the attitude that sparing the humans simply because there were no gargoyles left would be allowing the murderers to enjoy the fruits of their crimes.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Apr 16, 2007 7:49:16 am EDT from 4.244.214.3

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