Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Yes, I still live.

<<Of course, to me, the biggest plot hole of TFs was their lack of knowledge of solar power. Aside from one episode where the constructicons built Hoist's solar power tower, there was no mention of solar power. Aside from the stupidity of the writing, I see no reason why G1 Megatron wouldn't order the constructicons to start building solar power towers on Cybertron while keeping the Autobots busy on Earth.>>

Because, no offense intended DPH, you're not thinking like a Decepticon. much less like a egomaniacal warmonger like Megatron.

Decepticons were programmed as war machines, which meant all of their processes and thinking is geared towards the goals that are in line with engaging in combat and sustaining it towards their ultimate goal: conquest of Cybertron. In the entire original series, None of the Decepticons have shown any bent towards the development of non-combat technology -- save the Constructicons, but it was proven later they were re-programmed to join the Decepticon cause.

As well, solar power is hardly a reliable power source to revitalize an entire planet. Granted, they could construct a network of solar collection towers, but the state of war would have meant the Decepticons would have had to commit forces to defend those towers and maintain them. As such, the war between the Autobots and Decepticons had been going on for thousands of years -- according to the series -- so the rate of attrition between the sides could have eventually pulled those forces away and eventually left them in a state of disuse.

If you have to boil it down to the most basic of terms, Megatron isn't concerned with a peaceful means to revitalize his home world. He wishes to rule by any means he deems fit.

<<If the decepticons had stuck to non-violent ways of collecting energy, it would have made things a lot more interesting. Consider the following: Constructicons offer to build hydro-electric power to power a region of the world in return for a percentage of the energy it generates and that region accepts.>>

The whole point of Transformers wasn't to show a utopian view of another world, with it's peoples solving their problems through a creative, peaceful means. The point of the show was to show action, adventure, battles between good and evil and the consequences therein.

Back in the 1980's, shows for the most part were more about simple "Wham! Bang! Boom!" stories for entertainment only, not to show how intelligent beings could solve their problems with creative, peaceful solutions. It might not be to your liking, but it's what was popular back then, and that's what fans of the original show remember.
Stephen Sobotka Jr
"Who is it?" / I'm the plumber, I've come to fix the sink!"
posted @ Sun, Jun 3, 2007 5:40:09 pm EDT from 71.99.225.215

DPH> Check out this link. Seriously:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v661/gregx/rumble2copy.jpg
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"George Lucas has a message: I'm laughing all the way to the bank." -Me
posted @ Sun, Jun 3, 2007 5:17:47 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

TF related - I generally rate cartoon BW Megatron is vastly more intelligent than cartoon G1 Megatron. I even question whether it really was G1 Megatron who left the message on the Golden Disk. It seems more likely to me that Shockwave, Soundwave, or perhaps BW Megatron (if he arrived in time) actually put the message there. Of course, to me, the biggest plothole of TFs was their lack of knowledge of solar power. Aside from one episode where the constructicons built Hoist's solar power tower, there was no mention of solar power. Aside from the stupidity of the writing, I see no reason why G1 Megatron wouldn't order the constructicons to start building solar power towers on Cybertron while keeping the Autobots busy on Earth. After a while, Cybertron theoritically could become self-sufficient running on solar power. If the decepticons had stuck to non-violent ways of collecting energy, it would have made things a lot more interesting. Consider the following: Constructicons offer to build hydro-electric power to power a region of the world in return for a percentage of the energy it generates and that region accepts. Of course, the other problem I had with the tf's was the motivation of the bad guys.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sun, Jun 3, 2007 2:48:36 pm EDT from 216.96.23.250

Greg B: I don't know yet. I have this tendency to not hear a particular voice for a character if they don't have ones already. Not to say that I couldn't sit down and do a "casting call", but it doesn't work automatically with me. My head is weird.

Megatron: I never cared for the original original Megatron. When he became Galvatron, then things were rocking. :D (I'm also the only TF fan in the world that prefers Frank Welker's Galvatron voice over Leonard Nimoy's). And Beast Wars Megatron, who is one of my all-time favourite villains.

But I don't feel that this new Transformers movie has to be faithful to the original cartoons, or original comics, or anything. They're already making these crazy insectile robots...it's a reboot, like most Transformers stuff.

Hey, GregB, are you going to post your montage of G1 Megatron's...finest moments? :P
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Sun, Jun 3, 2007 12:24:20 pm EDT from 216.36.154.204

*yawns*
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth
posted @ Sun, Jun 3, 2007 10:44:44 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

As I can remember from the original Megatron in the '80s and the Beast Wars/Beast Machines Megatron, are both very intelligent. You need to be if you're the leader of the bad guys. Especially if you have Starscream around trying to bump you off every chance he gets.

But Megatron's intelligence isn't that of scholars or learned-men, it's filled with megalomania and world domination. Imagine how crazy you have to be to actually BELIEVE that you can not only take over the world, but continue to run it unopposed. The "brain-dead bully" characters are reserved for his underlings for most of them don't really understand the whole grand scheme of things, but will follow their leader to the end because they think they're on the winning side.
TiniTinyTony
posted @ Sun, Jun 3, 2007 10:20:31 am EDT from 71.173.60.103

Why do they insist on making Megatron (the original, not the Beast Wars one) an intellectual villain? He works so much better as a brain-dead bully. That doesn't mean he needs to be incompetent... he's just... not a thinker. =S Oh well. Frank Welker is cool.
Aldrius
posted @ Sun, Jun 3, 2007 6:44:49 am EDT from 207.112.124.151

Speaking of voice actors, Frank Welker, who obviously does tons of voices for different shows--including both Bronx and Megatron--is in a behind the scenes clip on the Transformers game site (click my name, wait 100 seconds for it to load, 'enter' the site, go to videos--it's the second one). Too bad he isn't reprising the role in the movie, too.
Vashkoda - [my name goes here at gmail dot com]
D2 <Can I have it?>
posted @ Sun, Jun 3, 2007 12:28:11 am EDT from 129.98.125.105

Watching a trailer for the movie Primeval and it sounds like Keith David narrating
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2rGpz6WaXM
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 11:34:08 pm EDT from 68.202.76.113

Ed Reynolds> S3 Comic v S3 TV: The main thing that makes me glum about the comic is that even if all goes to plan with the spin-offs and the schedules, it'll be 2010 before Greg surpasses the 12 story slots he had in TGC eleven years ago. Although it sounds Oliver Twist after the titanic struggles to revive the series at all, it's still frustrating knowing that Greg has so many stories to tell. Fingers crossed the spin-off numbers make SLG very, very happy.

We'll there's always the chance that as he does more issues he might or might not adapt to the format. I wonder how he'll go about Bad Guys and any other spinoffs. Timedancer if it were to become a bimonthly main series might work differently since Greg said he came up with it a lot later than the other spinoffs.

Something I will address in the review for #5, is that there is one benefit to the absense of voice actors. Should there be any mystery characters (and probably will), it will add to the question of said character's identity without a voice to match it with.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo,com]
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 11:01:04 pm EDT from 71.120.238.244

Patrick Stewart as the voice of the man in charge of a secret society... yeah, I can see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD1XXiiHpSM

(starting around 2:30) ;)
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"If you bring us down now we'll have to land in Ohio!" / "Then tonight, we dine in CLEVELAND!" - Xerxes / Leonidas, "United 300"
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 10:08:14 pm EDT from 67.38.247.176

Annonymous> Yep, Thailog is Goliath said backwards. We noticed.

Incisivis> Good to see you posting again regularly. I agree, I have no problem hearing the characters' voices.

Incidently, that makes me wonder... for the new characters, who do you hear? I know Greg has mentally cast them, but he has yet to reveal anything.

For Al's Friend, for some reason, I'm hearing Eliza Dushku... must be the goth wear, because she reminds me a little of Faith. And, given Greg is a huge Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan, I could see that as possible fantasy casting.

And, I know it's premature without seeing him yet, but Mr. Duval, for some reason, I would think of as being voiced by Patrick Stewart.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"George Lucas has a message: I'm laughing all the way to the bank." -Me
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 9:39:38 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

DAMN i did it again, that last post was mine :)
Demon@
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 9:36:36 pm EDT from 201.235.14.145

Well, yes, though new animated stories would be great, with the comic Greg has more freedom as to wathever he wants to do. SPOILERSSSS Thailog stabbing Goliath is a good example...END SPOILERSSSSS
I dont remember if i have said these before but have you noticed that Thailog is Goliath written all the way around??
Anonymous
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 9:35:31 pm EDT from 201.235.14.145

Ed> Point taken. But I just thought they were tiny diversions that didn't detract from the focus of the main plot.

I don't mind the comic not being animated; it's a non-issue for me. When I read a comic that has an animated counterpart, I tend to "hear" the cartoon voices of the characters in my head, if I'm familiar enough with them (with manga I tend to hear the character's dub voices, unless I dropped the dub early on). This happens with the Gargoyles comic, and from Greg Weisman's comments, that was exactly his goal.
Tell him he succeeded. :)

Plus, there's the fact, as Greg W. has mentioned before, that in certain areas BS&P is a lot stricter than before. Not every show today is, say, along the lines of an anime edited for TV in terms of how it deals with violence, but it's got a lot to do with luck, as it always does. The comics helps the series to run freer, as others have pointed out in the past. That cancels out even any art issues (mostly).

Plus, I'm the paranoid sort, so the fact that we're even *getting* a comic relaxes me to the other flaws in it.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 9:29:14 pm EDT from 216.36.154.204

"Seeing Isn't Believing": I saw it once and once only, 10 or 11 years ago. At the same time as watching it, I was also loading suitcases and putting them into the car, so I wasn't watching all that closely. But I like Taurus and Proteus so I found it quite entertaining for what it was. I liked the adverts for TGC when it aired; Matt saying "it's important that everyone remains calm" was prominent. Sigh.

S3 Comic v S3 TV: The main thing that makes me glum about the comic is that even if all goes to plan with the spin-offs and the schedules, it'll be 2010 before Greg surpasses the 12 story slots he had in TGC eleven years ago. Although it sounds Oliver Twist after the titanic struggles to revive the series at all, it's still frustrating knowing that Greg has so many stories to tell. Fingers crossed the spin-off numbers make SLG very, very happy.

Jurgan: That's a cool idea. Maybe there could be previews of the comic at the Gathering (because what are the odds of someone going to the Gathering and NOT picking the comic up?) so that the radio play could go forward?

*** #4 SPOILER PARADE ***

Purplegoldfish: Good thoughts, but wasn't the issue in 'Aladdin' more about "Al" trying to be someone he's not rather than Jasmine's insecurities? I think here Elisa's trying to be someone she's not. I haven't seen the movie in donkey's years though...

Todd: I hadn't thought about Goliath's lack of a costume, but I agree with your thoughts on that (and I particularly like the way you put it: "a simple majesty and dignity"; that seems to sum up a large aspect of Goliath's character).

Incisivis: I agree the issue was tight, it was just diffuse in focus. We got a bit of Sarah, a bit of Hudson/Robbins, some Xanatos, Roebling, Trio/Angela, Brendan/Margot, some Double Date stuff, some Thailog, and with sub-narratives given exposure within each of these (Talon/Maggie, the clones, Morgan, etc.). Each of these gave us something to think about, I just felt that by seeing a little of a lot of characters we didn't learn a lot about any of the characters. I think this will balance out over the three-issue arc, I just found it mildly disappointing this issue.
(Covers) Good points, I just found #1-3 more visually engaging and evocative.

*** #4 SPOILERS END ***
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 7:52:18 pm EDT from 213.187.38.72

On the subject of TGC and its animation: I basically agree with what everyone's been saying here; my only exception is "Angels in the Night." Most of the animation is quite nice in that episode (heck, it was the last one) but at the end of the news cast, we get a beautiful shot of Angela's stone form (her face actually. I would love to use that shot in a video, even though I normally wouldn't touch TGC footage and its general not-prettiness. The shot's especially lovely since so many of Angela's episodes have animation that's just a little funny.

Compare Angels in the Night:

i9.photobucket.com/albums/a67/spoonvonstup/AngelaStone.jpg

with some shots from The Reckoning:
i9.photobucket.com/albums/a67/spoonvonstup/ReckoningAngela.jpg
i9.photobucket.com/albums/a67/spoonvonstup/TheReckoningAngela2.jpg

Of course, it could be that I'm a sucker for think-characters-are-dead-but-then-they're-not stories.
Spoonvonstup - [howbedobe at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 7:42:42 pm EDT from 72.177.145.143

Looking at the lengths of some of the reviews here, I guess I should have posted mine in full text. Oh, well, live and learn.

SPOILERS for #4

Ed Reynolds> Have to say that I disagree with a few things here. I loved how the two main storylines converged (the New York party and the Labyrinth), and the Illuminati aspect was too small to be considered one, more of a teaser. It felt like a tight, focused issue with few diversions.

And the more "experimental" cover, I liked a lot. I like that it communicated the nature of the story more abstractly, without being completely off-the-wall. It's the most interesting cover so far, and I hope that more are like it. Greg Guler's group shots for #1 and #3 were pretty cool on their own, but didn't say much about the issue's contents. #2 had more to do with the story, but was too literal about it, and too much of an idealization of the contents.

...yes, I've thought *way* too hard about this. :P

END SPOILERS

Um, I also have to confess that I've never seen a recent, full episode of TGC except for The Jourey". I have vague memories of some episodes watched when they first aired on ABC, which would make me about twelve or so. At the time I hadn't been able to get much of Gargoyles while it was airing, and wasn't quite as "there" with the series as I became when I was older, so a lot of what TGC did "wrong" wouldn't have registered with me at that point.

BUT, after reading synopsis of the episodes online, I'm convinced never, ever to touch TGC. Kind of a melodramatic idea, but I just was reading these synopsis and thinking, "Oh holy god no". A lot of them seemed like a Very Special Episode of Gargoyles, in both the traditional and the short-bus sense.

I try not to project that onto TGC fans, though. It takes all kinds, and I've liked some controversial aspects of my other fandoms, too (though I'd argue that none are of the same dumbed-down type as TGC). Those who want the episodes to be canon should learn to deal with reality, though.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 4:27:16 pm EDT from 216.36.154.204

I'd like for Greg to use one of the comics as a radio play at a Gathering. I doubt it'll be this year, though, since the current story won't wrap up until June, but maybe next year he can do an entire three-issue arc. Oh, I hope he does that.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 4:16:23 pm EDT from 68.58.170.205

Harvester> Good point. I wasn;t thinking along those lines.

Matt> " though I do miss the voice actors."

Me too, but we have the DVDs anytime we want to hear them again.

Plus the fact that the Gathering is fast coming and Thom's a guest.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 3:35:56 pm EDT from 69.95.31.121

I agree... somewhat. There is a part of me that thinks perhaps Gargoyles is better in the comic book format than in the episodes... though I do miss the voice actors.
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 3:22:07 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

KingCobra: I don't know. I kind of like the fact one can seem to get away with more in the medium the new Gargoyles material is currently in.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Sanders, you've gotta help! I don't know what to do! I can't make decisions! I'M A PRESIDENT!" -Mel Brooks ("Spaceballs")
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 3:03:51 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

Purplegoldfish> "So I guess when Disney starts losing interest in one of their properties it's considered a throw away project to them...nice"

What else can we expect from them? They're not exactly known for honoring the wishes of their fans. Not that TGC had any. Or many.

Greg B.> "the series was dead anyway."

And re-started again, luckily for us. Without those crappy TGC episodes, the series is pure gold. Too bad we couldn't have gotten the ACTUAL 3rd season on TV.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 2:35:28 pm EDT from 69.95.31.121

Re: Seeing isn't Believing: Despite the characters being drawn way off model, I think that was likely the best animated(movement wise) of TGC episodes. Everything really flows-mind you characters are a little to "Bouncy" in their movement, but the flow was nice.
The ep that always bothered me a lot was "And Justice For All". The fight scene at the beginning before Goliath is hit by the truck-the backgrounds show lighted street windows and a wet street where the bright window reflections are reflected into the shiny wet pavement. When you see the characters move, there's no shadow underneath them(one particular scene where I think Lex is thrown into a pile of newspapers-even the pile of newspapers have glare from the windows underneath them with no shadow. This makes everything look like it's floating in mid air. It drove me nuts when I saw it.
Wingless
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 12:55:30 pm EDT from 74.115.187.62

This was The Goliath Chronicles. Of course it was a throw away project. Am I offended it was treated as such? That late in the game, no. As soon as Greg, Frank and Michael were gone, the series was dead anyway.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"George Lucas has a message: I'm laughing all the way to the bank." -Me
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 12:40:35 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

I don't blame the animator either.

I think the hug is cute too, but I just wish their proportions were correct. Goliath looks so small there. It just looks wrong. It would have been better if they were the right heights and proportions.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 12:32:52 pm EDT from 68.202.76.113

I agree with Tony. It's not the animator's fault...

"It was treated like a throw away project, a fill-in, and time filler, so the lead up time that we would usually get to "know" a character was not there, so we pretty much did them as we wanted to do them."

So I guess when Disney starts losing interest in one of their properties it's considered a throw away project to them...nice
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 12:26:47 pm EDT from 64.12.116.200

Well, like the animator said, he wasn't given time to study or research the model.

He probably went into work, and it was a slow day and he didn't have any Jasmine animating to do, so his boss threw him the Gargoyle episode and said, "Get it done by the end of the day" or something along those lines. And probably knowing nothing about the show, he did what he knew, which was animating someone sultry and sexy. Do I blame the animator? No. Do I blame Disney? Yes.
TiniTinyTony
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master.
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 10:50:23 am EDT from 71.181.178.6

:: reads that animator's comments ::

I don't think the guy gets it. It's not so much that she was acting sexy, it's the fact that she was drawn so horribly off-model.

20 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"If you bring us down now we'll have to land in Ohio" / "Then tonight, we dine in CLEVELAND!" - Xerxes / Leonidas, "United 300"
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 8:00:12 am EDT from 67.38.247.176

Purplegoldfish> Check my link for a statement by Jozef Szekeres, Animator of Elisa in the episode 'Seeing isn't believeing' .....
Guandalug la'Fay - [guandalug at gargoyles-fans dot org]
It has been said that the world is a strange place. This is not true. The world is a VERY strange place.
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 4:53:31 am EDT from 80.145.35.31

POSSIBLE SPOILERS**************************

TGC elisa-hehe I remember reading that the guy who animated Elisa was also in
the middle of animating jasmine for the third aladdin movie, and he didn't really take a lot of time studying her. So it makes sense. I was more taken aback about how stupid Elisa was in the ep. Though I do think that hug was kind of cute. And honestly, I don't think that Nir Paniry drew her right either.

Greg B: Well, you're right, I can't offer specific evidence from the show which suggests she wouldn't wear the costume. She just kind of strikes me as the kind of person who would be a little more modest. I could be totally wrong though-she obviously feels quite comfortable with Goliath. Hehe, I wonder if she had worn anything like that around Goliath before-I wonder what he thought of the costume.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny
posted @ Sat, Jun 2, 2007 12:32:42 am EDT from 64.12.116.200

Wow... I'd nearly forgotten how atrocious the animation was in some of those Goliath Chronicles episodes.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"When you work with handcuffs as long as I have, you pick up a few tricks. " - Elisa Maza
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 11:27:00 pm EDT from 67.38.247.176

Ah, so 11 or 18 is what you're hoping for. I'm hoping for 11.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master.
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 10:40:08 pm EDT from 71.181.178.6

Tony> As long as it comes out before San Diego Comic Con, I'm happy.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"George Lucas has a message: I'm laughing all the way to the bank." -Me
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 9:49:01 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

Oh, OK. Now I know what you're talking about. It's from a TGC episode.

Anyone want to take a guess on the release date for Gargoyles #5? We have July 4, 11, 18, and 25. I'm going to rule out July 4th because most business's are closed that day, correct? So 11, 18, or 25? What are you people thinking?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master.
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 9:47:14 pm EDT from 71.181.178.6

* SPOILERS *

Incidentally, I'm glad that Goliath didn't wear a costume for the party. (Or rather, he used his "gargoyle-ness" as the costume.) I think that it fits his character better to just go as himself rather than wearing an extra outfit (the same as in "Eye of the Beholder"). He seems to have a simple majesty and dignity as he is that shouldn't be tampered with.

* END OF SPOILERS *
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 9:46:54 pm EDT from 4.244.209.12

*** Potential Spoilers ***

Purplegoldfish> <<(Though I still think it's a little out of character for her to wear such a skimpy outfit-especially amid all those higher-ups.)>>

How so? We've never seen Elisa say anything at all about fashion. She's a cop, she dresses simple and practical on a daily basis.

I suppose you could liken it to Willow's Halloween costume in the second season Halloween episode, which was pretty... um, sexy. She was shy about it at first, but we've never seen Elisa portrayed as shy either.

Doesn't contradict any characterization in previous episodes. So, not out of character. Besides, as Greg confirmed, she was originally going to wear it with Goliath, but then, they broke up at the very last minute.

Margot looks pretty "slutty" too.

*** END SPOILERS ***
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"George Lucas has a message: I'm laughing all the way to the bank." -Me
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 9:27:41 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

Todd> You mean like this?
http://www.gargoyles-fans.de/downloads/screenshots/images/77/3_77_020.JPG
http://www.gargoyles-fans.de/downloads/screenshots/images/77/3_77_018.JPG
http://www.gargoyles-fans.de/downloads/screenshots/images/77/3_77_030.JPG

Goliath and Elisa's sizes are ALL wrong on this one here
http://www.gargoyles-fans.de/downloads/screenshots/images/77/3_77_069.JPG

And just for fun....
http://www.gargoyles-fans.de/downloads/screenshots/images/77/3_77_059.JPG
Siren
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 9:05:37 pm EDT from 68.202.76.113

Todd : Only her eyes, really. Her physique looked more like Pocahontas. And her walk, to quote Fred Kerns, looked like a fifty-dollar hooker's.
Spen
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 9:04:35 pm EDT from 66.43.205.68

TONY - When "Seeing Isn't Believing" came out, a lot of people who saw it thought that Elisa was drawn in it in a way that made her look a lot like Jasmine.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 8:22:04 pm EDT from 4.244.18.43

Sorry, forgot to include: There IS also the chance that Oberon passed the law just to make his own life easier.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Sanders, you've gotta help! I don't know what to do! I can't make decisions! I'M A PRESIDENT!" -Mel Brooks ("Spaceballs")
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 7:21:06 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

Greg B: Of course, the irony there is that Oberon probably does care. If not, he wouldn't have passed the law that prevents his subjects from making all humans and gargoyles their bitches.

Maybe he put in failsafes and maybe he didn't. I'd accept the theory that he did, but he seemed to be acting largely out of anger, so I also doubt it. Now, if he was weighing the consequences of say, killing a few hundred people versus having an island of eight million witness a giant fairy king pummeling a building, then that would make his actions amusingly ironic, given his law.

Of course, he also told Goliath that his laws are his to break. Or something to that extent.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Sanders, you've gotta help! I don't know what to do! I can't make decisions! I'M A PRESIDENT!" -Mel Brooks ("Spaceballs")
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 7:19:26 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

Todd> I don't get the reference. Please explain.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master.
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 6:42:22 pm EDT from 71.181.178.6

* SPOILERS FOR #4 *

Of course, what makes Elisa's costume all the more entertaining is all those comments about the way that she was animated in "Seeing Isn't Believing".

* SPOILERS END *
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 6:39:06 pm EDT from 4.244.18.43

OMG, I'm sorry

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SPOILERS BELOW FOR #4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 5:21:16 pm EDT from 205.188.116.200

Wow, there's a lot of good MGC entries this month...

Ed- Re:Elisa as Jasmine. "Well, it's the "next" Disney film I suppose. But also, the story is kind of a reverse 'Aladdin'. The diamond in the rough has found the princess, but she wishes some prince would come along instead."

I was thinking about the Aladdin/Jasmine and Goliath/Elisa connection. And I have to disagree with your assessment Ed. I don't see how it's a "reverse" Aladdin. I think Jasmine and Elisa have a lot in common. Elisa does really want to be with Goliath-she's just trying to persuade herself that she needs a "Prince." However, outside factors are what's keeping Elisa from Goliath-not just the species thing-but social and biological pressures as well.
It was kind of similar for Jasmine and aladdin (though Aladdin of course is human, so things are much easier). They wanted to be together, but they couldn't because of social pressures and the law of the land (her being a princess, him being a street urchin.) If you watch the end of the movie, you'll notice that before the sultan changes the Prince/Princess rule, Aladdin and Jasmine are reluctantly breaking up.(Now I'm kind of wondering if the sultan didn't change the rule-would they have gotten together anyway?)
I wonder if Greg thought about this when he chose Elisa's costume? Or maybe he just thought it would look good on her ;) (Though I still think it's a little out of character for her to wear such a skimpy outfit-especially amid all those higher-ups.)
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 5:19:22 pm EDT from 205.188.116.200

It's not that Oberon was acting like an idiot, so much that he probably didn't care.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"George Lucas has a message: I'm laughing all the way to the bank." -Me
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 3:55:18 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

I agree with you Demon@, attempting genocide is one of the worst things I can think of. I put it up there with torture, probably even worse.

Oberon was being negligent and maybe lazy or stupid, but his aim was to prevent interaction/intervention in their lives. He didn't give it a lot of thought, but he wasn't being malicious at all. His intent was never to murder random innocent people who had never done anything to him.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 3:51:07 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

I think also that Demona´s was worse. It included evilness, when Oberons spell included only negligence.
With the Canmores...well the number of victims was less, but i think they were acting as bad as Demona in City of Stone. She was trying to destroy humans, and they gargoyles. If the city would have been full of gargoyles the canmore would have been acting just like Demona, so i would put them in the same level.
Oberan was acting like an idiot, Demona and the hunters were been simple evil.
Demon@
La Monstruocidad es la conjuncion de la belleza y la fealdad exacerbadas hasta lo sublime
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 2:08:50 pm EDT from 201.235.14.145

Was finally able to get a copy of the new issue yesterday. It seems I just missed the ASK GREG cut-off, but here's my review anyway:

*** SPOILERS TO GARGOYLES #4 ***

I have a slight reservation about this issue, which I'll get out of the way first. #3 was a real thrill with all the new plots kicking off, but in #4 the storylines are still so diffuse that at times it feels like there's twenty dips and one nacho. Previously minor characters and most of the big leads get about the same exposure (a few panels, tops), while the linking Thailog plot is so far very straightforward.

Don't get me wrong, the story is great, thematically fascinating, brimming with interesting details to comment on (as I'll get to), and I've no doubt the #3-5 arc will read great as a unit this July. I just don't feel that, outside the last few pages, very much happened that wasn't anticipated by last issue or set-up for the next. I guess that's just the curse of the act-an-issue format.

Anyway, on with the fun stuff:

- I'm in awe at the size of the cast in #3-4. I counted 43 'active' characters: Fox, Xanatos, Alex, Matt, Elisa, Harris, Tri, Morgan, Phil, Hacker, Jason, Goliath, Brooklyn, Lex, Angela, Broadway, Hudson, Bronx, Demona, Al, Unnamed Kid, Talon, Maggie, Claw, Thailog, Malibu, Brentwood, Hollywood, Burbank, Delilah, Castaway, Billy, Susan, Terry, Sarah, Robbins, Brendan, Roebling, Owen, Ambassador Chung, "Two" and Bruno. 10 more in the 'outer orbit' of the story: Chaz, Lou, Duval and I guess you could count Gilly; Sevarius, Fang and the Steel Clan in flashbacks; the unnamed Newsreader at the top of #3; and Jackal and Hyena referenced visually.

- I have a strong feeling that "Masque" is going to be one that takes on much greater significance in hindsight. Not just the new characters, but the status quo established. Making Terry a friend and peer of Billy and Susan lifts them out of being appendages of Sarah's character and poses the question of how they'll react to Sarah as they move into the adult world. Talk about "yo mama" the monster. There's such a fascinating little domestic dynamic there. The Quarrymen patrolling the streets is pretty creepy.

- Also, Judge Roebling's return is intriguing and amusing ("wink, wink, nudge, nudge" is even funnier if you consider the pay-off of the Monty Python sketch that derives from and Goliath's relationship difficulties with Elisa).

- Robbins! I love him. I so hoped he'd figure it out. But the mild pathos of Hudson's secret is interesting to see too.

- The "post-modern tinman" line is great, and the costume choices were interesting. Lex's costume being included in the dream makes me feel less worried for Lex's future than I might otherwise have been since Puck's prophecies seem to be more a mishmash of future events than airtight predictions. But maybe it's all a double-bluff...

- Owen's expression when he's being called "my boy" is priceless!

- Alex's growth is fun. I guess the accounts of Merlin's infancy, where he's described as growing up alarmingly fast as well, are accurate in the Gargverse.

- "36" / "2". Hah! Good payoff. It's interesting that "2" is both in service and black given that the Illuminati have longevity drugs. The American Civil War is "only" 131 years ago... Just how long-lived are the senior Illuminati members...?

- The cliffhanger is shocking, even though I was spoilt, unfortunately. It's kind of awesome that Thailog can (and does) walk up so casually and stab Goliath. It breaks the etiquette of hero/villain stand-offs where you expect everyone to wait politely for people to finish speaking while they exchange violent blows. And we're dealing right away with the danger of being at Wyvern instead of hidden away in the Clock Tower. Nicely done.

- The stand-out scene of the issue was Owen's trade with Thailog. I love how calmly he handles Goliath and Thailog, reaching both of them with cool logic. The number of armed guards surprised me though. He's trusting those mercenaries to keep a pretty big secret. I guess the people who know the truth about the gargoyles just got a lot bigger. Just when I thought Owen could not be any more awesome. Times like this you realise, no wonder Xanatos chose Owen over Puck.

- You can tell Sevarius is one of Thailog's fathers from all the hamming up he does. But the 'Gargoyles' cast has so many awesome antagonists and Thailog still seems to be one of the weaker villains so far. His evil quips are entertaining, but don't reveal unexpected flashes of character as, say, Xanatos's often did ("barefoot into hell", "cliche villainy" etc.). His evil plan SO FAR isn't so much textbook Xanatos as textbook Jackal and Hyena (lots of "the old ultraviolence").

- Elisa as Jasmine. Well, it's the "next" Disney film I suppose. But also, the story is kind of a reverse 'Aladdin'. The diamond in the rough has found the princess, but she wishes some prince would come along instead.

- The cover is my least favourite so far. I find it mildly frustrating trying to work out which masks are clones and which not. I greatly prefer the less experimental covers.

- Nir Paniry does a good job filling in, though the final scene is a bit overdone. I find the dark colours and some of the angles make things a bit difficult to track at first. I do like the crisper, firmer outlines for the most part, although it does get a bit oppressive at times.

I just randomly depressed myself when I realised that in this format it would have taken 33 years to tell the original canon episodes. If it had started in September 1994, we'd be in the middle of "High Noon" now. Thank goodness for 'Bad Guys'.

*** END OF #4 SPOILERS***
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 1:11:45 pm EDT from 213.187.38.72

I do find it difficult to imagine that nobody died when Oberon put them to sleep. Car crashes come to mind. Although I think *more* cars must have crashed when people turned to stone with their feet on the gas pedals. Or anybody who turned to stone while jumping rope, or jumping during a basketball game, or just plain running/jogging. Anyone who didn't have secure footing when they turned, would probably fall over and at least get chipped.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 11:53:58 am EDT from 209.162.56.40

I'd say Demona's is worse, if due to the inherent malevolence involved. Not to mention, she most likely intended the spell to be permanent, so if she wasn't stopped and the spell removed, the people of Manhattan would still be turning to stone at night. Oberon did not inted for outsiders to be hurt, and the spell was intended to wear off more or less like a normal sleep. That's my two cents.

And Patrick> Probably the same place you'll be if you're going. Wee! It's so soon!
Asatira
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 11:26:02 am EDT from 66.168.218.251

Todd> I would think that Demona's rampage was worse.

Oberon's 'attack' didn't leave anyone dead, at least that we saw. It did injure a few Gargoyles, but that was only because they interfered and stone sleep would heal all that anyway.

So definitely Demona.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 10:51:44 am EDT from 69.95.31.61

Hello again, just my monthly "MGC is updated" link drop... May's topic is in voting until the 15th, with some AMAZING entries, go check them out! Also, the June topic is up if you'd like to enter, it should be a fun one for a Gathering month. :) Thanks!
kess - [< Updated for June!]
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 8:44:53 am EDT from 71.10.143.135

The talk about Demona hating humans in general and viewing all the petrified unfortunates as deliberate targets makes me think about one difference between her impact on the city in "City of Stone" and Oberon's impact on it in "The Gathering". Demona casts her Manhattan-wide spell because she hates all the humans living in New York (and everywhere else, as well), and wants to kill them all. Oberon casts his Manhattan-wide spell not to carry out a feud with the city's inhabitants but just to make it easier for him to abduct a single child. Which raises the question: which is worse, to cause havoc in an entire community because you hate all the members of it, or to do so because you're targeting one specific individual and whatever happened to everyone else in the community was just unintended "side effects"?

(Come to think of it, we get another example of the latter not long after "The Gathering", when the Canmores open fire on the clock tower to get rid of the gargoyles, and in spite of Robyn's stated intent to make it a "surgical strike", still wind up injuring at least Captain Chavez, and possibly other humans as well who weren't on their "target list".)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 7:45:47 am EDT from 4.244.213.196

On the road...
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 7:32:38 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

Where will you be three weeks from now?

21 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"Two hundred miles in this day and age? I don't even know where I live now!" - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 6:54:45 am EDT from 67.38.247.176

Well, given what we know about her, that makes the most sense.

"Humanity is a poison that must be purged from this planet."

So, it was pretty much just any random person between her and Packmedia Studios. Were she going somewhere else, it would have been other unfortunates.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"The Syndicate doesn't need corpses who can't fight, who've lost their taste for blood." -Vicious.
posted @ Fri, Jun 1, 2007 6:33:05 am EDT from 71.62.204.109

Before reading Greg X's post, I probably would have said that perhaps she was killing those that perhaps short-changed her or something when she experienced her first days as a half-human.

But Greg's right -- she was just trigger happy on her way to Pack Media Studios.
Phoenician - [<---My Kinda Useless Blog]
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 10:21:22 pm EDT from 70.162.221.121

Demon@> Oh, watch the episode, Demona was killing randomly. Not even randomly, she was walking to Pack Media Studios and killing every human in her path.

So, why did Demona kill them? Because they were there.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"George Lucas has a message: I'm laughing all the way to the bank." -Me
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 10:10:19 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

Uh sorry that was me :>
Demon@
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 9:44:55 pm EDT from 200.125.109.218

Mmmm talking about these, say you get into a comic store, you are given a certain amount of time to get aaalll the comics you want and you will have them for free. You will go first to the once you like more, and then, if you have more time, with the rest.
With Demona in City of Stone we have the same situation. She have certain time to kill certain amount of humans, so wich ones she killed first? Normally, serial killers kill with some criteria in mind, the victims remeber them of something nasty or traumatic that had happened to them. Did Demona just killed them randomly, smashing man, woman and child on her path, or did she follow certain characteristic in the humans she killed at first?
Anonymous
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 9:43:30 pm EDT from 200.125.109.218

Jurgan: I'll accept that theory. It actually amuses me (and doesn't surprise me much either) that Oberon would be more mindful of such things than God would be.

Vaevictus: Unless the fact that she lost her arms while she was stone meant that the sockets were, in a sense, "cauterized" when she woke up. In which case, THAT would suck on toast.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"The Syndicate doesn't need corpses who can't fight, who've lost their taste for blood." -Vicious.
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 8:55:01 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

Good point about the terms of Demona's spell being different from those of gargoyle stone sleep. But I still doubt that the shattered stone turned back into flesh and blood.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 7:36:10 pm EDT from 4.244.213.122

Also, when people turned back into flesh, they just changed, there was no exploding out of stone with stone skin fragments everywhere.

As for seeing statues.. most of the people Demona killed seemed to be smashed into unrecognizable rubble. You'd have to examine it to see fingers or facial features and realize it used to be a statue. You'd have to recognize a specific facial feature to realize it used to be a statue of somebody you know who is now missing.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 5:26:44 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

Also, keep in mind that when gargoyles and beasts turn to "stone" they are not turning to stone literally, they are transforming into a stone-like organic substance. This is a biological process. The humans turning to stone were actually turing into true rock and the process was completely magical.

So comparisons of gargoyle stone sleep and humans turned to stone via magic are going to be flawed. It's a very different thing.
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 4:38:35 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Todd Said> (Though, since gargoyles that get smashed in their stone sleep don't revert to flesh and blood at night, I suppose that the same thing would happen with the slaughtered humans.)

But then shouldn't have the statues been there when people woke up? Wouldn't some people see statues of people an drealise that the woman raving to Travis Marshall was telling the truth?
Battle Beast - [wlukinuk at telus dot net]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 1:58:15 pm EDT from 142.59.132.201

Here's Greg's comment on that woman.

"Demona's reign of terror on the statues presented us with interesting S&P problems -- and some bizarre but VERY FUN solutions. Adrienne understood the necessity of having Demona blow up and/or smash a few of the stone humans. Even though the implication was death for those people. She was okay with it on the condition that we didn't spell it out, because, at worst, the death's were so fanciful, they certainly weren't imitatible. But she did want us to limit the number of deaths. So at one point she nixed the idea of blowing up yet another statue, but allowed us to blow up the shopping bags (and hand and arm) of one. This seemed less harsh to her. Of course, bloodthirsty lot that we were, we loved it. Because if you think about it, it was certainly more horrific come sunrise."
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"George Lucas has a message: I'm laughing all the way to the bank." -Me
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 12:49:58 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

Well, nearly destroying somebody's head is more fatal than destroying their arms. My impressions was that she would wake up and immediately die. I'd rather not think about it, though.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 12:47:14 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

Todd> "Of course, I suspect that one "City of Stone" consequence that many people would also have been wondering about would be not just the "people gone missing", but also the case where Demona blew off a woman's arms while leaving the rest of her intact. Now that would have really been a creepy thing to wake up to come dawn...."

That's assuming that the woman even woke up at all. Greg has said that Goliath would not have woken up if Jackal had reconstructed his stone face (in The Green) like he'd wanted to.

It's the same thing here. Only difference being that (obviously) it's a woman's arms and not her face and that they were shot to pieces. It's a gruesome image, but it's more realistic then her waking up to discover herself armless.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 11:05:54 am EDT from 69.95.28.99

Demonskrye said, "(They also may have assumed that most people wouldn't wonder about such things, as the audience is capable of suspending disbelief about much stranger phenomena, such as Elisa dressing the exact same way for roughly 2 years.)"

...never mind that Goliath and crew have been wearing the same loin cloths for 1000+ years. Those got to be pretty stinky unless stone sleep not only heals your wounds, but cleans unsightly grass stains as well.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master.
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 9:12:06 am EDT from 71.181.143.228

Of course, I suspect that one "City of Stone" consequence that many people would also have been wondering about would be not just the "people gone missing", but also the case where Demona blew off a woman's arms while leaving the rest of her intact. Now that would have really been a creepy thing to wake up to come dawn....

Incidentally, I hope that all the humans that were smashed during Demona's rampage stayed stone (or rubble, more accurately) when the sun came up or the spell was broken, and didn't revert back to flesh and blood. (Though, since gargoyles that get smashed in their stone sleep don't revert to flesh and blood at night, I suppose that the same thing would happen with the slaughtered humans.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 8:58:21 am EDT from 4.245.17.166

dph> You're welcome. I realized later that I forgot to add that being in black and white is also probably a reason that "Haunted Mansion" comes out with greater regularity, since it doesn't have to go through the coloring step which takes up more tme.

Civilian Casualties> While there are consequences to actions in the Gargoyles universe, we can't and don't always see all of them. We see Elisa on crutches after "Deadly Force", having trouble coping with her schedule, and getting chewed out by her mom for not checking in during the World Tour. But we don't see many other consequences of Elisa being gone for months without explanation on the World Tour. She doesn't get fired, she doesn't get evicted. We don't even know if she lost pay or not. There may be explanations for what happened (I'm pretty sure Greg has addressed why Elisa doesn't get fired), but the creative team made a judgement call that these issues weren't compelling enough to take time out of a 22 minute cartoon (or a bi-monthly comic book) to address them. (They also may have assumed that most people wouldn't wonder about such things, as the audience is capable of suspending disbelief about much stranger phenomena, such as Elisa dressing the exact same way for roughly 2 years.)

Could there be an interesting story made about the casualties of "City of Stone"? I think so. I've had a fanfic on that subject kicking around my head for a while now. But I'm not sure I'd have wanted to see the concept addressed on the show. As other people have pointed out, this was a show meant to be appropriate for younger viewers. The fact that we even got to see Demona destroying statues that we understood to be real people was amazing enough. The problem with adressing the idea any further is that there's no satisfactory resolution possible. You could devote an entire episode to introducing a new character and having her try to discover what happened to her husband, who disappeared without a trace during those mass blackouts. But considering how antsy most people got during the World Tour, I doubt the regular audience would be thrilled with an episode featuring few or no gargoyles or regular characters. And the only possible outcomes are either that this woman never figures out what became of her husband, or she learns that he was turned to stone and smashed to rubble. Either way, hardly a goos ending, especially for the kiddie set. Could you deal with it without taking up a whole episode? Sure, nut there'd be problems there too. IMagine if the news report in "City of Stone" had included a woman saying "I don't understand. My husband was just three feet away from me, and the next thing I know, he's just not there anymore." Would you still be completely into learning about Demona and Macbeth's backstory and watching the clan and Xanatos team up to save the city? Or would you be distracted thinking about that poor woman and whether she would ever find out what really happened to her husband? "Gargoyles" is good about showing consequences, but it's also choosy about which consequences it can effectively deal with.
Demonskrye
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 7:05:02 am EDT from 209.6.251.143

Sorry for the double post, but I meant to say "keep the possibility of people dying offstage".
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 6:45:26 am EDT from 4.244.209.150

I think that, aside from S&P issues, they would have had to keep the possibility of people dying as a result of everyone in the city falling asleep in "The Gathering" because it would have shifted the focus off the struggle over Alex and onto the casualties among the innocent bystanders. (You'd probably have had several members of the audience, at least, thinking that the gargoyles should have been going to the aid of all those sleeping humans rather than protecting some rich guy's son.) Also, after Oberon (and Titania, through getting him to try kidnapping Alex) had caused that much devastation, I doubt that the audience would have accepted the notion of letting them just casually return to Avalon at the end; too many people would have been howling for their punishment.

I do wonder myself whether some of the public's panic and fear concerning the gargoyles after "Hunter's Moon" comes not just from whatever fears that they might have about the gargoyles, but also from the fact that, after all the weird things that have been going on in New York over the past couple of years, they're feeling anxious enough that they're looking for scapegoats.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, May 31, 2007 6:44:26 am EDT from 4.244.209.150

Demonskrye- Thanks for the answers to my questions 1 and 1a. The only reason I care about the delay in finding out the release date for the other Disney comics is it might effect the release for gargoyles. Of course, we don't have all the info, but I'm concerned about Disney's approval office taking longer to approve a comic.

Todd and/or Gorebash - thx for cleaning out the bash of spam at Ask Greg.

Gorebash - Thank you for explaining what's going on.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 11:55:26 pm EDT from 216.96.23.250

I think Oberon probably did have some failsafes built into his spell. Keep in mind that his own law says not to interfere in human affairs. Now, I'll grant you that he has a tendency to twist his laws around to suit his own needs (just like his Children). However, he was able to justify taking Alex because he's part Third Race, and he could claim to himself that all those who tried to stop him were interfering in his affairs first, so he was in the right to fight back against them. He could certainly justify putting some people to sleep, since they would not be seriously harmed. I don't think there's any way he could justify killing humans who had nothing to do with his conflict with the Xanatoses. I feel he must have had some provision in place that prevented anyone from dying or being seriously injured as an effect of the spell. Now, property damage- that's another story.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"[George Bush] has created so many disasters, I'm not sure he knows which is which anymore. He walked into Walter Reed and said he wanted to have it ready for next year's Mardi Gras." -Bill Maher
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 11:29:24 pm EDT from 68.58.232.2

To clarify, I'm not against consequences in the show Gargoyles or any show for that matter. Results of consequences from our main character's actions are a huge part of what drives any story.

I think the consequences of Goliath and how they affected Vinny was a great story arc and came to an interesting conclusion in the end. It was entertaining and enjoyable.

In my previous comment, I was giving some examples of people who could have been affected by the consequences of our main characters. But hearing about how Joe Schmo and his wife falling asleep behind the wheel, crashing and his wife suffocating in her airbag would not be entertaining story. It would be depressing and for a Disney television show, would really be pushing the envelope.

Not to say that I wouldn't like to hear a story arc where Joe Schmo learned SOME HOW that Oberon put everyone to sleep and someone Goliath was to blame, so he decided to cream Goliath, as in shoot him with a rocket launcher and watch his guts cream onto the side of a building.

Allow me to liken it to City of Stone again. There was a women who didn't watch television tell Travis Marshall that she knew what happened that everyone turned to stone at night. No one believed her. So if there was a person who knew for certain why everyone fell asleep in The Gathering Part 1, they probably wouldn't believe that person either. Just like no one believed Vinny.

Greg W. showed us how one person was affected by the Gargoyles actions and I doubt he'll do it again. But then again we have "Al's friend", hmmmmm...
TiniTinyTony
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master.
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 10:56:03 pm EDT from 71.181.143.228

Ant its a disney tv show, of 22 minutes per week, they cant work much on that time. Or its audience, most of it anyway, maybe wasnt ready to deal with the death of a small child, smashed by an evil creature of darkness. They didnt air Deadly Force to give an example of how they care more for a little of blood and "shocking scenes" that for the real meaning of them, like "DO NOT play with guns GUNS are NOT TOYS"
Demon@
La Monstruocidad es la conjuncion de la belleza y la fealdad exacerbadas hasta lo sublime
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 10:24:46 pm EDT from 201.235.240.47

Tony> <<don't mean to sound cold, but in the nicest way possible, the casualties of war aren't discussed because 1) they don't involve our main characters, and 2) it's not interesting/entertaining to read about or watch for that matter.>>

1. That's plausable, yes.
2. No, that's not why. As Matt said, "Gargoyles" was often about consequences, and dealing with said consequences. Standards and Practices, more than anything, probably wouldn't let them delve into this too deeply.

And yes, dealing with consequences is very interesting, and many great stories do it. "Gargoyles" did it when ever it could. I'm sorry you don't think that's interesting.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"George Lucas has a message: I'm laughing all the way to the bank." -Me
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 9:53:13 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

Tony: <Demona's smash victims were never addressed either.> She likes Super Smash Brothers? Has Greg ever mentioned this?

But seriously, it was just something I was wondering about, storytelling aside. The city loses a massive chunk of time, after losing a massive chunk of time back in the Fall of 1995, and like last time, people were killed. The thing is, the body count was probably higher on the second one. And then a few months later, people learn that gargoyles are real. I don't know, I just find the progression on this amusing.

But we can always go back to a religion or politics discussion.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"The Syndicate doesn't need corpses who can't fight, who've lost their taste for blood." -Vicious.
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 9:47:52 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

TTTony> I don't agree. Greg W has explicitly said many times that Gargoyles was big into consequences. Hell, Vinnie was introduced in large part because of that theme.
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 9:46:52 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Harvester of Eyes> Demona's smash victims were never addressed either. Like Oberon's victims, the humans that died were just casualties of war. It stinks for the families and friends who might be looking for lost loved ones, like little Timmy who could have disappeared around the events of City of Stone. The probable results - Timmy's picture ends up on a milk carton with the rest of the missing children of the U.S. never to be found. Sad and unfortunate as it may be, it's not entertaining. Also, if poor Mr. Smith, who may have suffocated in an air bag during Oberon's spell, might have left behind a family of three. They continued to live on without him and if they were lucky lived off his life insurance money until they got back on their feet.

I don't mean to sound cold, but in the nicest way possible, the casualties of war aren't discussed because 1) they don't involve our main characters, and 2) it's not interesting/entertaining to read about or watch for that matter.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master.
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 8:11:51 pm EDT from 71.181.143.228

Thanks Patrick. I guess I'll have to try to get one of the tickets when I get there.
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 7:55:34 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

*enters wearing a Viking helmet and brandishing an economy-sized bottle of Tabasco*

Did someone say Spam?

And now for the main reason I'm posting. As a few people might know, I've been checking out a few comic titles recently to see what I've been missing the last twelve years. Recently, I was reading "Lucifer: Children and Monsters," and there's a scene where the armies of Heaven invade LA, and they basically put the entire city to sleep first. The description includes a line about some people suffocating in the air bags of their cars.

Tying it into this CR, it got me wondering what sort of collateral damage occurred when Oberon put Manhattan to sleep. I don't know if Greg ever addressed this, but there had to be quite a few people who drowned in their bathtubs, or fractured their skulls if they fell asleep while walking, or accidentally set their apartments on fire. And then there might have been the odd driver who smothered in their airbag. Unless Oberon had some failsafes in the spell.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"The tab is there to open the can. The can is there to hold in the Spam." -Weird Al Yankovic (sung to the tune of REM's "Stand")
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 7:34:42 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

From the Gathering newsletter that went out a few days ago:

* * * * *

1.) Special Announcement - Banquet!
Banquet tickets are no longer available online! We will have just a couple tickets left to sell at the convention, so if you want a seat at the banquet and haven't yet purchased your tickets, come see us at
the Registration Desk, located in Atrium Meeting Room 3A (A.K.A. The Dealers' Room) of our hotel first thing on June 22nd! This also means that the FULL registration package is no longer available. However, you can still purchase Registrations for $50 and T-shirts for $20 until June 1st! After that time, the Registration price will go up, and you will have to sign up and pay at the Convention!

* * * * *

The reason is because the con staff needed to tell the hotel how many were attending the dinner.

23 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"People say how could the most evil villain in the universe be a whiney teenager? But that's who the most evil villain in the universe WOULD be. He'd start out as an emo-kid with some issues." - Kevin Smith on Darth Vader
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 7:20:14 pm EDT from 67.38.247.176

Yes, I didn't know about the new spam-storm until just now. I'll clean it out when I have the opportunity.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 7:00:53 pm EDT from 4.245.23.39

Gathering Question> Sorry if this was announced and I missed it, but why is the full package and banquet no longer available in registration?
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 6:19:00 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

B&CF> I don't know if this will answer your question, but in regards to the Grimorum, since it is a different kind of magic (or at least possesses so much info and spells that it practically is a magical artifact) it gets rejected by the magics of Avalon. The reason the Archmage was able to get onto the island was he had ingested it after merging with the Eye of Odin. Since he was already part of the something Avalon would recognize as its own, the Grimorum was sort of masked. Remember what happened after Goliath removed the Eye of Odin during their fight? That's definately a rejection of foreign magics.
Asatira
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 5:34:58 pm EDT from 66.168.218.251

"I'm slightly surprised that AG is still asking questions and that Todd hasn't deleted the spams."

Well, let's not be too hard on Todd. Guarding the gate to Ask Greg is a tedious job, and he has a life of his own. I'm sure he'll clear it out when he gets around to it.

Last time we waited until the queue got up to 100 before locking the Ask feature. It's probably a good idea to do it early this time, though, since we know that after the Gathering there'll be con journals filling it up.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 4:10:37 pm EDT from 153.9.84.117

dph> As to your SLG questions:
1. "Haunted Mansion" is printed in black and white and all the other Disney books are in full color. Black and white printing is less expensive than color, so cover price is lower.
1a. I'm guessing this might be because "Haunted Mansion" is an anthology book. I haven't been reading it for a while, but when I was, there was only one ongoing story with a consistant writer/artist team. So you have a larger number of writers and artists each doing a smaller amount of work and you can technically slide in a different story that's ready to go if one you had scheduled for that issue falls behind. (Technically because page count may not be the same and could create problems.)
2. It's a bit worrying, but it could be for any number of reasons. I'd keep an eye on Diamond's shipping lists to see when their stuff is coming out, as that may be more up to date than the SLG site. (Though SLG's site is more likely to reflect printer delays and what have you.)
Demonskrye
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 3:43:12 pm EDT from 209.6.251.143

dph> 'Plus factor in that's almost 3 weeks until the gathering.'

Now if only the next 3 weeks go by FAST, I'll be happy.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 3:15:55 pm EDT from 69.95.29.38

Ask Greg closes at the end of this week. Greg wanted to keep it open for 3 weeks starting with the week of #4's release.

It'll almost certainly open again after the gathering to take journal submissions.
Gorebash - [gorebash at s8 dot org]
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 2:54:36 pm EDT from 207.206.247.218

AG Spam: Each one comes from a different IP on a completely different network. I'm guessing it's a bot/zombie farm being used to blow through any/all forms found online. How many people use the unanswered questions queue regularly? If it's a problem I can see about sticking a captcha into the ask a question form.
Gorebash - [gorebash at s8 dot org]
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 2:52:07 pm EDT from 207.206.247.218

Ask Greg - I noticed that the spam was completely cleaned out for a brief period of time yesterday. I sent an email to Gorebash asking to add the word verification feature to Ask Greg submissions to help out. However, I can't help thinking that the new spam appeared only because someone/somethink noticed that the old spam was gone.

I have a couple of questions about slg.
1)Has anybody else noticed that their Haunted Mansion comics (another Disney license) is priced below the cost of the rest of the Disney comics? Any ideas?
1a)It is also interesting to note that Haunted Mission, the SLG's cheapiest Disney comic, has had the most issues released of any of SLG's Disney comics.
2)Has anybody else noticed that all SLG's Disney's comics scheduled for release in June do not have a scheduled release date yet?

Jurgan - <Has anyone else noticed the spamstorm at Ask Greg? Twenty-three gibberish posts in a row. Is this someone's idea of a joke?> Actually, it's 22 nonsensical posts/spam out of the last 25.

KingCobra_582 - < I'm slightly surprised that AG is still asking questions> If you take my previously mentioned 22 questions out, you end up with 72. Plus factor in that's almost 3 weeks until the gathering. If the submit button stays open for the gathering to start, I would be willing to say, it'll stay open until the end of July to get feedback for issue #5 and then close down until the next comic comes out. The real question will be what happens to Ask Greg submissions once gargoyles comics come out every month. <and that Todd hasn't deleted the spams.> See my comments above about spam in Ask Greg
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 2:51:14 pm EDT from 216.96.23.250

Jurgan> I'm slightly surprised that AG is still asking questions and that Todd hasn't deleted the spams.

On the other hand, some part of me is curious to see how Greg responds to spam.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 2:24:12 pm EDT from 69.95.29.38

Has anyone else noticed the spamstorm at Ask Greg? Twenty-three gibberish posts in a row. Is this someone's idea of a joke?
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 1:51:28 pm EDT from 68.58.196.112

Yes, although it takes a minimum magic knowledge to get to Avalon, a person wouldn't necessarily have any talismans, or they could leave them behind as the Magus did.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 1:25:20 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

The Magus had information on rearing gargoyle eggs and gargoyles. If gargoyle eggs do need to be turned, Katharine may have learned it from him.

I think the Guardians of Avalon may have been there to do more than keep human sorcery out. They were guardians afterall. I think they were really trying to keep anything out.
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 6:20:32 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

Last week, I mentioned a scenario with talking moutain lions.The moutain lion was a reference to Greg W.'s comparison of taking a gargoyle to court to taking a moutain lion to court.
***
The idea was actually to show how preconceptions of mountain lion problems from limited reports can cause a person to misconstrue an encounter. To get the full impact, it may help to imagine hearing about odd mountain lions doing things out of "The Secret of NIMH" but not knowing about their ability to talk or even walk on their hind legs (What does the public know about gargoyles, anyway?)

The licking, etc. at the end was to force the correct interpretation.

It might also help a little to replace the moutain lions with bears.
JJ Gregarius
posted @ Wed, May 30, 2007 3:05:47 am EDT from 206.57.91.179

Phoenician> Ah, but there's a difference between Oberon's Laws and the Laws of Nature/Physics: Nature's Laws are absolute, while Oberon's are not.

Although it did actually happen, I never logically bought the whole eating the Grimorum to get around the rule. It was still a magic not of Avalon, even if it was now in a different form.

Question: If, after defeating the Weird Sisters at Avalon's Gate, could the Magus and Co. have entered Avalon with the Grimorum as is?
Meaning, does one need only to get by the guardians to enter, or is that rule magically enforced when one tries to step on the island? If the latter, what exactly is the point of having guardians?
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
"Ed Gruberman, you must learn patience." "Yeah, yeah, yeah, patience. How long will that take?" --"Ti Kwan Leep/Boot to the Head"
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 11:45:42 pm EDT from 63.20.72.176

I think it was a lie. Since when Princess Katherine was a specialist in breeding gargoyles? And specially at that time, when she was just "recovering" from her bitchy actitud of "i hate these beasts".
Though, it may be necesary to turn them. Birds do that to keep all the surface of the egg equally warm. Reptils dont need to do it because they just cover them completly with some substance (like sand or soil) wich would take care of the issue of keeping the egg warm in all its surface.
Demon@
"Here is my new girlfriend, and in these Full moon i shall..." "That huge dog thing is your girlfriend?""What huge dog..Ohh damn it..." Macbeth
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 10:36:17 pm EDT from 200.114.206.63

I did not know that reptile eggs harden after being laid. I thought gargoyle and garg-beast eggs harden only because the outer shell becomes stone.

Platypus and echidna eggs don't harden, although they acquire a sticky outer coat that may or may not be some secretion of the mother's.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 10:09:45 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

I know I've said this before, but Constantine saying "I don't think I like gargoyle eggs" amuses me because I'm a diseased motherf**ker, and always feel compelled to say to the TV: "Hey, at least TRY one before you judge them." But I'm also the sort of person who'll try anything once. No, scratch that. I'll try most things once.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"It was a new day yesterday, but it's an old day now." -Ian Anderson
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 8:08:47 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

If gargoyle eggs are fairly heavy, there might be some believability to the idea that the need to be turned periodically to keep the shells from cracking too early. If they sit in one position for too long, they might become misshapen or develop a weak spot from one part of the shell being in constant contact with the ground, just like a pumpkin that's never turned as it grows.

24 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"People say how could the most evil villain in the universe be a whiney teenager? But that's who the most evil villain in the universe WOULD be. He'd start out as an emo-kid with some issues." - Kevin Smith on Darth Vader
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 7:48:18 pm EDT from 67.38.247.176

In some of the Gargoyles egg laying, they are more reptilian. For instance, reptile eggs are soft at first and then harden. From what I remember reading, the same can be said for gargoyles, so the labor of laying the egg is not so painful. And reptile eggs can not be turned, at any cost. They embryo will die if its turned.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 7:32:52 pm EDT from 68.202.76.113

1. I believe Katherine WAS making an excuse to Constantine, but hey, the best lies and exuses DO have some truth in them. That's why I think Gargoyle eggs should be turned, or they'll crack too soon. (which then makes me wonder if the clan mothers ever visited the Rookery to do this)

2. My bet is that there was no real ceremony between the gargoyles, at least in 994. Remember how Goliath was fascinated with the whole ceremony, especially the exchange of tokens?

(And just in case, POSSIBLE SPOILERS)

3. Hmmm . . . not sure how he did this one, but hey, Thailog's been able to fake his death before (did he do it in Sanctuary too? I doubt it, but I just can't remember). Nevertheless, since Thailog's the 'man of the moment' in the comics, this question may be answered in the next few issues.
Phoenician - [<---My Kinda Useless Blog]
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 6:52:19 pm EDT from 70.162.221.121

Concerning Thailog and Demona: They might both glided out of the way and then lost sight of each other because of all the smoke. Regardless of whether or not Demona suspects he survived, their next meeting ought to be fun times.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"It was a new day yesterday, but it's an old day now." -Ian Anderson
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 6:31:27 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

Greg B> "And since when has Demona ever made sure the job was done right?"

Valid point.

Matt> I don't really see Demona just letting Thailog go. Unless she was unconscious at the time. Which is the most likely scenario.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 6:09:21 pm EDT from 69.95.28.111

Just because Katharine used the turning eggs thing as an excuse doesn't mean she made it up. It may or may not be accurate.

As for Thailog and Demona's fall, we don't know or not whether Demona thinks Thailog died or not that night. For all we know, she is aware that he survived.
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 5:49:31 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Greg B.-
1. I had also assumed she was making it up as well. Most of the fanfics I have read in the past (including TGS I believe) stated that the eggs needed to be turned. So I'de just like to know for sure.

2. I didn't think gargoyles would make a big deal of a mating ceremony the way humans do-maybe gargoyles adopted it from humans later on.

3. sure that works. I wonder where he went between then and the current story.

I think I'll ask Greg the first two.
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 5:31:53 pm EDT from 205.188.116.200

Cobra> Demona was, kind of, maybe a little, distracted at the time.

And since when has Demona ever made sure the job was done right?
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Fidel Castro dressed up like Marilyn Monroe and gave JFK a case of syphilis so bad it eventually blew out the back of his head.
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 4:48:07 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

Greg B> Maybe, but how's he do it w/o Demona seeing him? Knowing her, she'd want to MAKE SURE he's dead, instead of just assuming.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 4:46:30 pm EDT from 69.95.28.111

Purplegoldfish> These are just my guesses.

1. I think that was just a cover story, so that Constantine would (hopefully) not get suspicious. The eggs were his hostages, afterall.

2. Greg has said that gargoyles have commitment ceremonies recently. But, he hasn't been entirely consistent on this. Personally, I thought Demona and Goliath doing it privately was more in line with what a gargoyle would do. I don't know.

3. Personally, I don't think Thailog even hit the ground. He's strong enough to pull himself out, and all that heat would create a nice updraft for him to get away suffering only a few minor burns. Sunrise probably took care of those.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Fidel Castro dressed up like Marilyn Monroe and gave JFK a case of syphilis so bad it eventually blew out the back of his head.
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 4:30:39 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

hmm, quiet in here...

Here's a few random questions I was thinking of asking Greg but maybe someone knows the answers in here.

1. In "Avalon pt. 1", Princess Katharine tells Constantine that gargoyle eggs need to be turned or they'll crack too soon. So I was wondering-do gargoyle eggs actually need to be turned? Or did Katharine just make that up as a cover to explain why her and Mary were carting the eggs around?

2. Do gargoyles generally hold mating ceremonies, or do they more or less elope? In "Vows," Goliath and Demona facilitated their own union-would there have been a more official ceremony later attended by the clan?

3. So how did Thailog survive that fire anyway? That fall seemed pretty fatal. He had a contingency plan for that? Maybe we'll find out in the coming issues.

Discuss :)
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 4:25:26 pm EDT from 205.188.116.200

<<re: bending the Laws of Nature> Could someone please explain this concept to me? Aren't they called "Laws" for a reason? To "bend" a Law of Nature seems a ridiculous notion to me.>>

Me too. The idea of anything being "supernatural" in the sense that it actually *breaks* the laws of physics makes no sense to me. So in any setting that contains magic, magic must in some way be part of the laws of physics, even if no scientist has figured it out yet.

RE Hudson >> When I saw The Price, I thought that Hudson was trapped in stone sleep, but of course by the time the statue is shattered, I'd already seen that Hudson was somewhere else. I also thought the robot was Macbeth, although I started to get confused when he repeated the same words over and over.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 1:31:14 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

I remember when I first saw "The Price", I had a feeling that Hudson wasn't dead at first. I just didn't understand what beef Macbeth had with Goliath's clan at the time. I had a pretty good feeling that when Hudson grabbed his own stone skin, that he was going to get out of there, with or without a fight. And as soon as Xanatos read what the cauldron did, I knew it would turn people to stone. Didn't expect Owen to volunteer to do it.
TiniTinyTony
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master.
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 9:36:46 am EDT from 71.181.159.146

DPH: "lions are eating the server" = you've tried to post 6 or more URLs that begin with "http://" in one comment. this was added as a means of spam blocking. Easily bypassed, as you found out, by not including "http://" in the url.
Gorebash - [gorebash at s8 dot org]
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 8:33:06 am EDT from 207.206.247.219

ANTIYONDER - The first time that I saw "The Price", I know that I was half-expecting Hudson to die in it. (Then again, there were a lot of things in that episode that took me by surprise besides the fact that Hudson didn't die. Hudson turning out to be not trapped in stone sleep but kidnapped by Xanatos with a decoy statue left in his place, for example, or "Macbeth" turning out to be a lookalike robot. And I certainly doubt that any of us saw what happened to Owen's hand at the end coming.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 7:31:47 am EDT from 4.244.215.198

Well, someone once said, rules were meant to be broken.

And in the Gargoyle Universe, you can also remember Archmage telling himself that they can bend Oberon's Law to their advantage without breaking it. (While eating the Grimorum, which on its own was not allowed on the island of Avalon)

As for "Magio as energies," I think it's something like Oberon's Children can manipulate and bend the rules of physics in a manner outside our comprehension and in a way that doesn't break them. (I beleive the example for 'comprehension' was that a caveman would consider fire from wood to be magic where most of us undertand what's really going on).

I don't know . . . that was my stab at it. Anyone else . . . ??
Phoenician - [<---My Kinda Useless Blog]
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 2:52:13 am EDT from 70.162.221.121

Harvestor> And those would, of course, be the Golgafrinchans.
I was thinking the same thing when I came across your post.

re: bending the Laws of Nature> Could someone please explain this concept to me? Aren't they called "Laws" for a reason? To "bend" a Law of Nature seems a ridiculous notion to me.

re: Creation v. Evolution> What came first, the chicken or the egg?
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: The Album of the Soundtrack of the Trailer of the Film of Monty Python and the Holy Grail (Executive Version)
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 1:34:01 am EDT from 63.20.63.234

I remember seeing The Price when I was little (this means being six or seven), and though I knew the guy was all right (for the most part), that scene is still VERY disturbing. Not disturbing in the sense that it frightens me or makes me ill, but in the sense that it's very sudden and moving, and well, sad.

So for Hudson's death, I doubt its anytime soon . . . he has YEARS to fight (at least that's what I'm hoping for).

Whatever the outcome, and whatever the year, I'm sure Greg will have a great story for it.

Cobra: Way to ruin your moment of drama, XD
Phoenician - [<---My Kinda Useless Blog]
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 1:01:29 am EDT from 70.162.221.121

Concerning the topic of Hudson's death, ddi anyone here first think he was going to die in The Price. I myself didn't think about it really, but as pointed out, the Previously On Gargoyles could have given some the impression (Given the dialogue, "You have many years of fighting left").
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 12:33:01 am EDT from 71.115.195.26

I'm sure killing off Hudson is very far off, but I guess the question is because of his age, will he be the first to go? I don't know the master plan like the back of my hand so that's why I ask.

And that makes sense that the Gargoyle race is native to our planet. I like it like that.

New question/topic: Does there or could there exist an artifact/object called "The Praying Human"?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master.
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 12:27:30 am EDT from 72.79.180.31

Sorry for the double post.

That was supposed to be 'bite'.

Dammit.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 12:24:11 am EDT from 69.95.196.27

ArkansasMezzo> Bute your tongue about killing off Brooklyn!
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.
posted @ Tue, May 29, 2007 12:23:13 am EDT from 69.95.196.27

Hudson dying> I believe it has been brought up a few times about Hudson's particular mortality. Given that all of the clan lead dangerous lives, being protectors and all, there's the increased mortality risk. That aside, I believe Greg has thought about and talked about Hudson's mortality simply because his character is old. I think he may die in the future, from natural causes or in the line of duty, but I don't think his death was planned for 2004. As has been pointed out, Puck got a lot of things right, but the big clenchers were Goliath's absence and Xanatos becoming a cliche.

Alien gargoyles?> It's been discussed a number of times, especially to clear up the confusion about the Space Spawn and Nokkar: gargoyles are purely natural, native species to Earth. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number of alien species that may have evolved certain characteristics of gargoyles on their worlds (like a form of gliding, or a severe and rigid sleep cycle that could parallel stone sleep), but no, nothing exactly like gargoyles.

Magic> Dan> by your examples, are you asking about magic getting to the point where it'd be everyday, like electricity? Possibly, but not in the gargoyles universe and certainly not for a long time.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 11:16:20 pm EDT from 66.168.218.251

Also, keep in mind that gargoyle reproduction aside, gargoyles themselves may be tied to the Earth. There is a reason that only Zafiro and Demona go into space with Nokkar in 2198. That reason seems to have to do with the sunlight-stone sleep issue.
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 10:13:03 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Greg: It's true that there is alot of different theories out there. One being the earth and moon are hollow, and one were we are descendant from aliens. My question is, can magic be transformed to the point were we can see it like in parts of the show or like harry potter or the magic used in the anime how's moving castle? And if roswell did happen, then who would you believe to be the truth?
Dan
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 10:11:41 pm EDT from 152.163.100.197

HARVESTER - A few. On the other hand, he had Goliath not getting back to New York until 2036, Xanatos acting like a cliched melodramatic cartoon super-villain, ad Brooklyn and Demona becoming an item. (Not to mention that, while the clock tower was indeed destroyed in the "Future Tense" world, I doubt that the culprits were the Canmores.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 10:08:35 pm EDT from 4.245.23.224

ArkansasMezzo: Everyone dies. Gargoyles are as mortal as humans, with a few exceptions. I've often wondered if Hudson is set to die in 2004. Puck did have a few good guesses in his vision.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"If I must beat this lesson into you, then so be it. It's for your own good." -Demona ("Vows")
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 10:04:09 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

Tony > Gargoyle reproduction is inextricably bound to the internal cycles of the Earth, so no, I seriously doubt they could exist at all on another planet.

Anyway, Greg has stated explicitly, and multiple times, that they are native to Earth. He's said evolution or God may be the origin of them, but he's never said that aliens could have made them.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 10:01:03 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

*enters with crayons*

Tryin' out a new color this week ....

TTT> Killing off Hudson> Oh, horror! *gasp* And after Greg W. spent so much time in the first two seasons trying to really flesh him out as a character, making him so much more than just an old man who "hates spunk." :) Plus, we've already kind of lost Hudson, in a way, when Xanatos's "Macbeth" robot replaced him with a statue and everyone thought he had died. G.W. just couldn't kill him off ....

But if someone else were to get killed, who would be a likely candidate? Maybe Brooklyn - and his future self could pull an Archmage and go back in time to avert the disaster.

*packs up crayons except for one, draws a hole in the floor, and jumps through*
ArkansasMezzo
1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10...11...12...another 12...another 12...another 12...TWENTY! (my nephew Ben, 2 yrs. old)
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 9:52:30 pm EDT from 206.255.77.227

Tony> No.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Fidel Castro dressed up like Marilyn Monroe and gave JFK a case of syphilis so bad it eventually blew out the back of his head.
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 9:50:08 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

Could the gargoyle race have existed on another planet and than "transplanted" on Earth to see if it could survive there?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master.
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 9:48:23 pm EDT from 72.79.180.31

Tony> Why would there be humans and gargoyles on other planets? They are native to Earth. We know there are N'Kai (Nokkar's people, I think) on other planets. There are Space-Spawn on other planets.

Why would the exact same species exist on other planets? It makes no sense. Sorry.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Fidel Castro dressed up like Marilyn Monroe and gave JFK a case of syphilis so bad it eventually blew out the back of his head.
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 9:41:29 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

No, I'm not looking for an creation/evolution debate, just wondering if people think that Gargoyles could exist on other planets. Your beliefs are your own. There is no right or wrong answers. I was just wondering if people believe if there is/was life on other planets, human or Gargoyle. But that might lead to more spiritual or religious debates, and I agree, that's the last thing we want.

So, in that vain, I will suggest a new topic.

Will Greg W. kill off Hudson in the comics? And if so, will Goliath take on the new mentor role, or will it be Brooklyn? But Brooklyn might be "time dancing", so will the clan look to Broadway as a mentor?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master.
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 9:35:31 pm EDT from 72.79.180.31

Or maybe Earth is a giant computer and gargoyles were just one of the lifeforms in the ship that crashed on it. I think that would tie into our ancestors, and how we fear what we don't understand. Yeah, I'm gonna go with this theory. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"If I must beat this lesson into you, then so be it. It's for your own good." -Demona ("Vows")
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 9:14:06 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

Tony> The thing is, what it reads to me now that you want to discuss, and correct me if I'm wrong, is a creationist vs evolution debate. To be honest, I'm not sure if that is appropriate for this forum.

The short answer is, gargoyles were created by what ever brought about other life on Earth. God, evolution, what ever you really believe in.

Personally, I'd rather not see an evolution vs creationism debate in here. Like other hot topics, no one ever changes their mind, and well, we have CNN and Fox News for these debates.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Fidel Castro dressed up like Marilyn Monroe and gave JFK a case of syphilis so bad it eventually blew out the back of his head.
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 9:04:34 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

I think that it's a good idea to keep the alien involvement in Earth's past history in the Gargoyles Universe to a minimum. For one thing, if there've been plenty of extra-terrestrials visiting the place in the past few centuries, it makes Nokkar appear a very poor Sentinel. (It's bad enough that he takes the attitude of "I've already decided that the gargoyles must be Space-Spawn agents, so don't try confusing me with the facts.")
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 8:59:55 pm EDT from 4.245.23.224

I know I can pick my poison. I'm attempting to initiate conversion to know others poison.

If we do not wish to discuss the topic I suggested, please choose another and I'll gladly contribute my thoughts and feelings using my opinion based on facts or truths.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master.
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 8:58:48 pm EDT from 72.79.180.31

Tony> "Do we know who or what greated the Gargoyle race?"

God. Evolution. Both. Pick your poison.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
Fidel Castro dressed up like Marilyn Monroe and gave JFK a case of syphilis so bad it eventually blew out the back of his head.
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 8:46:28 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

I know some would argue that we, humans, are alien. We have yet to find the "missing link" so I've read that some believe that aliens were put on Earth and we did not evolve here.

So following that theory, if humans were grown/made on another world and placed here, could Gargoyles have been born or created on another world and placed on Earth?

Do we know who or what greated the Gargoyle race?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master.
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 8:44:25 pm EDT from 72.79.180.31

Todd - Can you please go through and delete the spam from the backlog?
The following questions are spam:
www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=9573
www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=9572
www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=9570
www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=9568
www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=9550
www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=9536
www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=9534
www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=9533
www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=9531

Also, inside this question:
Estrecca writes...

First and foremost, congratulations for the series. It used to be one of my favourite shows and I look forward to reading the comics as soon as possible. Now, regarding my questions.
. . .

there are questions about multiple topics.

Siren - Try www.dailymotion.com for uploading your videos.

Gorebash - What does this mean: Lions are eating the server! I got that message when trying to post?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 8:26:37 pm EDT from 216.96.23.250

Great, Jonny's using aliases now. *rolls his eyes*
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"If I must beat this lesson into you, then so be it. It's for your own good." -Demona ("Vows")
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 8:25:55 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

sorry for a double-post

Todd: There's a newly posted question that has been asked before:

"
bruce writes...

jast wondering if you ever plan to finish off the dvd colection.it seems a shame realeasing season one and two vol two and leaving it at that."
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 7:31:36 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

Happy Memorial Day.

Asking if there are gargoyle life on other planets is like asking if humans evolved on other planets. It just isn't possible. But certainly, some alien life could look or behave like gargoyles.

As for Third-Race-like life on other planets: really, what we're talking about is energy life-forms. Magic is a form of energy, which has not been studied by science yet, and can be controlled by things like spoken words. So it is weird energy, but it is still apparently within the laws of physics. The Third Race are basically beings made of energy instead of flesh and blood, so the question is: did energy life evolve in other solar systems?
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 5:12:31 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

Demona trying to convice E.T society that humans are evil and must be destroyed...naaa...
SPOILERS (´cause i can say that now hhehehe)
I m kind of disapointed to see Thailog after the fire healthy and whole...i was expecting something more, having in mind he fall into a roaring fire...But otherwise im pretty satisfied with the comic :)
Demon@
"Here is my new girlfriend, and in these Full moon i shall..." "That huge dog thing is your girlfriend?""What huge dog..Ohh damn it..." Macbeth
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 4:16:23 pm EDT from 200.114.206.63

Heck, if there is life on other planets, I'll be impressed if it's more complex than a few cells. But I think one of the best arguments for intelligent life being humanoid is that so many of the traits help one survive to the point where they achieve sentience: binocular vision (which is nice and neat), standing upright (key for spotting predators at a distance), and opposable thumbs (self-explanatory, and if not, tape your thumbs to the palms of your hands and try to function for just one hour). Of course, that's just going by the evolutionary path hominids took on Earth. No telling how evolution might play out on another planet.

POSSIBLE SPOILER:

Todd: That actually never crossed my mind. I guess my line of reasoning is that the city functioned fine before the gargoyles came along. Plus, they have the strong urge to protect, but they also have to realize that no one is an island.

<I suspect that Thailog's more likely to become a powerful magnate in the business world with secret shady deals, like Xanatos, than a simple crime boss like Dracon or Brod.)> He strikes me as being smart enough to know that even the most carefully-laid plans don't always work. I'm sure he probably has capital stashed somewhere that Demona didn't know about.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Barney Gumble: "Is the alien Santa Claus?" Homer: "Ummmm... yes."
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 1:36:16 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

Happy Memorial Day, all. Here's hoping that everyone takes a minute today to reflect on the true meaning of this day, because it was not originally conceived as a day for cookouts, fireworks, and big box store discount sales.

I think "Star Trek" is most responsible for encouraging us to think that there must be lots of human-like aliens wandering about the galaxy. In reality, if we do find life on another planet, we can't even be sure that it will be carbon-based like us, yet alone look like us or capable of interbreeding with us (sorry, Captain Kirk).

Also, what is "magic" when you get right down to it? Wouldn't a book of matches seem like magic to a caveman? We use a myriad of things in our everyday 21st century lives that would seem magical to someone living just 200 years ago. Are Oberon's children breaking the physical laws of the universe, or are they simply able to bend them in ways beyond humankind's current level of comprehension?

25 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 8:48:31 am EDT from 67.38.247.176

But the magic itself may be quite different. Keep in mind that Greg has said that Earth's magic is linked to the Earth.

I'm working today as well, but only til 3. Have a good one everybody.
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 7:38:05 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

Happy Memorial Day, everyone!

TONY - I doubt that there's actual "gargoyle life" on other planets in the Gargoyles Universe (unless some aliens abducted several gargoyles centuries ago and took them back to their home planet to breed); it strikes me as too improbable that you'd get a species native to another planet so similar to an Earthling species. Though there might be aliens with some superficial similarities to gargoyles out there. (Mind you, I doubt that the Space-Spawn are among them.)

* COMICS-RELATED SPOILER *

When I first read the official description of #7 here, I initially wondered about the gargoyles taking a road trip; wouldn't that interfere with their oath to protect the city? But then it more recently occurred to me that, so far, the antagonists in the comic book are ones who aren't targeting New York in the manner of conventional cartoon super-villains. The two antagonists that we've seen so far in the comic - the ones who actually confront Goliath and Co., that is - are Castaway and Thailog. Both have private feuds with the gargoyles; Castaway in the comic book (unlike his Goliath Chronicles counterpart) isn't stupid enough to go about firing anti-aircraft guns in the streets or attacking passenger trains simply because they've got a few gargoyles on board, and Thailog seems more interested in "recovering his property" and tormenting Goliath for entertainment purposes than in unleashing the crime wave of the century. (I suspect that Thailog's more likely to become a powerful magnate in the business world with secret shady deals, like Xanatos, than a simple crime boss like Dracon or Brod.) We know from the description of #7 that Coldsteel's going to be returning, but he's another personal adversary of the clan, motivated by lust for Desdemona/Coldfire, who's so far ignored the human population. We've had glimpses of a few enemies who *have* targeted the human community before - Demona in #3, an allusion to Jackal and Hyena in #4 - but so far they haven't fully emerged yet. At the moment, what we're seeing is the private foes.

So perhaps it's not too far-fetched for the gargoyles to be away from New York for a while; I don't think that their road trip would really be that much like "Batman taking a leave of absence from Gotham City, leaving it at the mercy of the Arkham Asylum crowd while he's gone", after all. We'll have to wait and see, though.

* SPOILERS END *
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, May 28, 2007 7:37:01 am EDT from 4.244.211.229

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