Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Demon@ > I think that the gargoyles turn into a biological substance during the day, and their healing is biological. But I think Greg W. has said that the humans in City of Stone tuned into real stone. Since it was magic, I don't think they would acquire the gargoyle healing ability.

Concerning gargoyles healing disease, I've always thought that the biological process that turns them to "stone" would kill any bacteria that were in their bodies. But viruses aren't fully alive, and it is even possible to crystalize, freeze, or cut apart viruses, and when the "destroyed" viruses are mixed together in warm water, they reassemble and become active again. So I am not sure I believe that stone sleep could kill viruses. I also think that if nature can evolve a species that can turn to "stone", then bacteria could evolve that could survive the stone sleep. Bacteria already have an ability to form "spores" in which they can hibernate for many years. So I wonder about the idea that gargoyles never get sick.

After all, the Mayan Clan were worried about Bronx getting an infection. If stone sleep was guaranteed to stop that, wouldn't they shrug off the risk? They themselves may be vulnerable to infection, however.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution which is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Sun, Sep 16, 2007 6:02:56 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

Patrick> Yeah, not all the art was bad in DA. But something to keep in mind when looking at the scans, Disney Adventures was/is published in a format about the same size as the average manga/graphic novel, ie not very big. So things like pacing and details are certainly different. And I don't think they had consistent writers and artists for each comic (except maybe Ducktales stuff).

It was good to read "Lines of Allegiance" again. In both the Marvel comic and DA, I like the Broadway focused stuff, especially when they show he's more than a big stomach.
Asatira
posted @ Sun, Sep 16, 2007 5:16:32 pm EDT from 75.143.96.94

Uh that was me Im sorry :P Yeah Boudicca rocks
Demon@
posted @ Sun, Sep 16, 2007 5:15:23 pm EDT from 190.2.14.81

I always liked the art work of the marvel gargoyle comics There are some parts of Elisa and Demona that get on my nerves, but the gargoyles are pretty cool done.
The other day I was seeing City of Stone again and I was wondering. The gargoyles heal their wounds and any kind of potential virus that gets into them when they turn to stone. When the humans in Manhatan were turn to stone...do you think the people that was in the hospital heal their wounds and sickness? Maybe Demona saved as much lives as she destroyed...to her utter dismay :P
I
posted @ Sun, Sep 16, 2007 5:14:40 pm EDT from 190.2.14.81

Is anyone else besides me having trouble getting into the Gargoyles fan fiction and gargoyles fan art on this site? I keep getting a page cannot be displayed.
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Video games are my cocaine!
posted @ Sun, Sep 16, 2007 2:17:47 pm EDT from 69.231.209.185

I always saw Boudicca's "mane" as a series of short, fleshy points rather than anything hairy or hard. It's a great design, really.

Sirengarg will probably get to it before I do, but I do have that DA issue hidden away somewhere, and several more with Gargoyles comics. I've re-read them recently, and the stories are grating, but I like the art in some of them.

The first story...Xanatos' manner was a little weird, some of the colouring and poses were off/odd, but it got me excited for the series.

By the way, is Broadway's line, "I'm just a big dumb gargoyle with his brains in his stomach" from "Her
Brother's Keeper" a reference to Xanatos' ironic description of Broadway in the DA intro story? Both were written by Michael Reaves, and the lines are almost exactly the same. Or is it just an artist "stealing" from himself? :P
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Sun, Sep 16, 2007 1:21:43 pm EDT from 216.36.154.204

Matt: Caesar Augustus's birthday?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Life's the same, except for my shoes." -The Cars ("Moving in Stereo")
posted @ Sun, Sep 16, 2007 11:08:42 am EDT from 71.62.204.109

FYI, scans of those Disney Adventures comics have been available for a long time on the www.Gargoyles-Fans.org site:

http://avalon.gargoyles-fans.org/ftp/pictures/comics/disney_adventures/temp/

Some of the artwork isn't too bad.

285 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Draw!" - Buford Tannen
posted @ Sun, Sep 16, 2007 10:57:50 am EDT from 68.76.120.247

Does anyone know what a week from today is?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Sun, Sep 16, 2007 10:51:11 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

Asatira> No kidding.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Sun, Sep 16, 2007 2:48:36 am EDT from 76.247.68.145

DA Garg comic> Yeah, that's about average to above average quality artwork for Disney Adventures. Overall, it's okay, but man is Elisa off.
Asatira
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 11:28:39 pm EDT from 75.143.96.94

first time poster! yay :D (blows small horn) so forgive the newbie if I ask questions that have already been brought up.

Matt>I would have to go with the neck frill idea however, if it is hair then it might be very course air like on a porcupine.

Now for my question; Has any one taken a guess how fast gargoyles fly/glide?
kitsuneopal - [superducknts at netscape dot net]
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 10:24:37 pm EDT from 65.189.220.156

MAtt> It's a neck frill, like Styracosaurus or Torosaurus. Sorry.
Battle Beast - [wlukinuk at telus dot net]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 9:55:06 pm EDT from 142.59.132.201

Siren> It'd certainly be cool to see at least and I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd want to see the other DA "Gargoyles" info (except for that second cover *shudder*. But since scanning is time consuming and I don't know that I could do anything with the articles, the other comic would probably be what I could use the most. But no rush and Don't go out of your way.

VA> The funny thing is, the guy who drew "A Study in Stone" is actually a very talented independent comics artist. This little four pager is certainly not his best work and I'm guessing he had some bad xeroxes of the model sheets and about a week draw the thing. I'm having a tough time finding a really good example of his work online, but if you google "Zombie World: Champion of the Worms" and look at the cover with the inset picture of the characters (the one that's not entirely drawn by Mignola), that's what he usually draws like. Plus he's done storyboard work on shows like "X-Men Evolution". On top of that, the story was written by Michael Reaves, who did a lot of writing and storyediting on "Gargoyles" itslef. So it should be good, but it's really just a little intro to the show in comics form. Editorial and deadline pressure, I would guess.

But yes, the cover to the Novemeber '95 Disney Adventures? That'll send anyone with functioning eyes running for the hills.
Demonskrye
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 9:16:15 pm EDT from 209.6.249.41

I'd like everyone here to take a look at this page:

http://lynativerse.artchicks.org/Screencaps/Ga_Boud.htm

Now tell me if you think Boudicca does or does not have hair.
Thank you.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 9:08:47 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Wow... that Disney Adventure art makes me appreciate David Hedgecock so much more.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution which is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 7:50:31 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

Siren> Some scans would be cool, but don't go to any trouble unless Demonskrye requires scans. If you read below I already provided the information that Demonskrye requested.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"What you're passionate about, from a cartoon standpoint, has to do with what age you were when you very first saw it." ~Greg Weisman
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 7:41:59 pm EDT from 71.173.12.93

Demonskrye>I have both Disney adventures that feature the Gargoyles comics and articles. I will find them in my storage boxes soon and post info and even scans if you'd like.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 6:33:21 pm EDT from 68.202.76.113

TTT> Thanks a bunch! I just added the info to GargWiki
Demonskrye
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 3:26:14 pm EDT from 209.6.249.41

Just came in to drop this off:

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1775476

Enjoy.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Life's the same, except for my shoes." -The Cars ("Moving in Stereo")
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 2:04:52 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

dph_of-rules>"I noticed Diamond hasn't updated their listing to show what's expected on the 26th."

The update for the following week is posted on Mondays. The page is updated every Monday by 5:00 p.m. Eastern Time, unless a notice is posted to the contrary. So this Monday is when you'll see the list for what is to be expected for the 26th.

Demonskrye>
I have two issue of #50 -- one with and without Jonathan Brandis on the cover. Ironic that both items on the cover are dead.

Anyway, bad joke, but here's the data you requested from the margin.

Writer: Michael Reaves
Pencils: Pat McEown
Inks: Ian Akin
Lettering: Bill Spicer
Coloring: Sam Parsons
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"What you're passionate about, from a cartoon standpoint, has to do with what age you were when you very first saw it." ~Greg Weisman
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 1:46:23 pm EDT from 71.173.12.93

I too think the Illuminati must have been watching him at least ever since giving him the coin.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution which is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 1:32:41 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

Demonskrye: I think it's unlikely that the artists were credited, I have Disney's Year Book 1996 here (the one with Elisa's birthday) and those artists aren't credited.
Anonymous
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 1:14:20 pm EDT from 84.184.114.87

Matt: Hudson said "A little boring, but any port in a storm" in "The Heroes Awaken," just before he landed on the subway train with Bronx. The "movie" had a lot of little things that aren't on the DVDs, such as Goliath saying "Almost there," "Your worst nightmare," and "Godspeed."
D. Taina
"This is a job for the gargoyles!" - Elisa
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 11:54:23 am EDT from 172.134.1.25

Matt: Xanatos moving the castle to the top of the Eyrie Building. If the Illuminati had been watching him since giving him the coin (and again, we don't know how long they'd been watching him), I'm sure that made them stand up and really take notice.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Life's the same, except for my shoes." -The Cars ("Moving in Stereo")
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 11:42:04 am EDT from 71.62.204.109

We do know that Jon Canmore approached the Illuminati, and not the other way around. And, while they may have known about gargoyles in Manhattan, they certainly didn't know any specifics. Mace is clear in Revelations that they got the information about the gargoyles from Xanatos, and I don't see why he would need to lie. Frankly, I can't see who else could know, unless maybe Xanatos has an Illuminati watchdog in his company. I suppose that's possible, just like Shari for Thailog. Finally: dang. I just watched "Vows," and Xanatos does indeed say he received instructions "last week." So much for my theory. It then seems like a pretty big coincidence that Xanatos joined the Illuminati just a couple months before he needed them.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 10:16:12 am EDT from 68.59.13.2

Does anyone have a copy of "Disney Adventures #50" from November of 1994? I've been working on the article for it on GargWiki, but I need to know if there's any writer and/or artist credited. DA's credits for artwork and comics often end up in the page margins, so it's possible that the scans on Avalon Archives I'm working from cut out any credits that might be there.
Demonskrye
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 9:57:18 am EDT from 209.6.249.41

HofEyes> I'm not sure I follow what you are trying to say about moving the Castle.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 8:30:53 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

I'm under the impression that the Society usually comes to you. I'm sure the Illuminati had been watching him ever since he got the coin. After all, they'd had instructions to hold onto that envelope for 1,000 years.

As for why they waited so long, I'm also wondering if his activities concerning the relocation of Castle Wyvern might have had something to do with that.

But this is all speculation.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Life's the same, except for my shoes." -The Cars ("Moving in Stereo")
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 8:15:10 am EDT from 71.62.204.109

Does anybody have any idea when/if Hudson ever said this: "A little boring, but any port in a storm."?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 8:13:21 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

Of course, we'll have to wait until Greg reveals the date before we know for sure.
Spen
"Isn't it satisfying to watch your child grow up from a tiny little acorn into a complete nut?" - George Pickard
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 5:20:58 am EDT from 66.43.205.110

Jurgan : Didn't Xanatos say that he recieved the letter "last week"? If so, then he already was a member when he recieved the letter.
Spen
"Isn't it satisfying to watch your child grow up from a tiny little acorn into a complete nut?" - George Pickard
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 5:18:28 am EDT from 66.43.205.110

We've had 3 issues in a row delivered on time (within the month predicted). Last month, in the slg blog, they mentioned having trouble getting a couple of comics distributed through Diamond Comics. If there's no announcement by Wednesday, the 19th, I would like to know the status of issue #6. I'm also getting the feeling that slg is going to end up moving most of the stuff slated for release in September to being slated for release in October.

I got a hypothetical question, which I hope remains hypothetical. If issue #6 comes out in October, does that automatically push the release date of Bad Guys #1 to November?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 2:46:16 am EDT from 216.96.17.171

Comic> What's the status of it as far as approval goes? Has it been approved yet?
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Thirty-Six. Nine.' - Issue #5
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 2:41:05 am EDT from 76.247.68.145

If #6 comes out on the 26, than that's just fine with me. Infact, it makes that week even better for me since HALO 3 comes out that Tuesday.
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Video games are my cocaine!
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 2:15:06 am EDT from 69.231.209.185

I would say it's official now, barring a revelation from Greg Weisman this weekend, that issue #6 is not coming out on the 19th. Is anybody else having trouble accessing slg's website right now?

I find it hard to believe that the Illuminati Society wasn't aware of the existance of the gargoyles in Manhattan before Xanatos could have told them. However, the origins of this clan would be potentially good info for the Illuminati Society. I'd also imagine info on project Thailog as well as Coldstone would also be interesting to the Illuminati Society.

I'm also very interesting in learning what else happened during September 1995.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 2:08:28 am EDT from 216.96.17.171

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2p1sJUHow4&mode=related&search=

Just for laughs from Seth Green
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Video games are my cocaine!
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 1:49:04 am EDT from 69.231.209.185

I'd always assumed, at least until recently (when we found out X was on his "first official assignment"), that Xanatos had been a member for quite some time. Turns out I was wrong. Well, here's my thought: Xanatos got the letter from himself explaining how he'd gotten the ancient coin sometime within a few months of his wedding. At that point, he wasn't yet in the Illuminati, and it was the letter that first told him of their existence. Maybe it mentioned a person in the society whom he could make contact with. Now, Xanatos knows that he needs to be in the Illuminati by the time of his wedding, so he has to offer something big to get their attention. Obviously, there's a lot he could offer, but they've got so much power already that what does he have that's unique? Well, he does have some valuable information, which is the one thing we know for sure he has given them: the secret of the gargoyles. So he tells whoever his Illuminati contact is all about the Scottish clan he's revived, showing them photos and giving as much information as he needs to (though probably not all- he's sure to keep a few valuable tidbits all to himself). This information is valuable no matter what, but it's even more so if the Illuminati were unaware that gargoyles were not extinct. If that's the case, it would instantly throw their entire world plan into disarray, and Xanatos has done them an enormous favor by bringing it to their attention. It's then a given that he's inducted into the society.

This revelation does shoot down one of my long-standing theories, though. I'd always assumed that the reason Xanatos was so low-ranked was by his own choice. The reasons being: one, he wants to be a self-made man and not rely too much on others, and two, he'd know that the more involved he got in the society, the more they'd expect of him. He wouldn't want to get so deep in that he no longer was able to see his own goals. All of this is probably still true, but it's not the main reason for his rank. The main reason is that he hasn't been in long enough to advance far (or has he? Shari seems to have jumped ranks quickly, unless she's a lot older than she looks).
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Sep 15, 2007 12:34:06 am EDT from 68.59.13.2

Matt: I hear there are a few inductance rituals. The first is the "Wreck of the Hesperus." The second is "Crossing the Desert". The third is "The Unblinking Eye." And the final ordeal is the "Paddling of the Swollen Ass... With Paddles."

And yeah... Greg does surprise us with the This Day in Gargoyles History. Something that shocked me was Lexington going into business in 1999. I always thought he went into business later, but... c'est la vie.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"It doesn't matter what you look like on the outside, whether you're black, or white, or Sasquatch, even. As long as you follow your dream, no matter how crazy or against the law it is. Unless you're a Sasquatch. If you're a Sasquatch, the rules are different." -Meatwad
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 6:48:58 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

Yeah, I'm beginning to wonder... Why does Greg write that Xanatos was "officially inducted" on this date? Am I reading into this too much? Was Hacker giving Matt the pin HIS official induction? Is there some sort of ceremony? procedure? hazing? Was Xanatos an UNofficial member for a while? Did Matt become official later once he learned to say "thirty-six" but not when he got the pin?

Naturally, a revelation from Greg only brings more questions.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 5:54:22 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Very interesting revelation, today indeed. I had assumed Xanatos had already joined the Society by 1995. I guess he had to wait for an opening, which leads to the point of what event(s) created the opening for Xanatos to join.

In about 6 hours (or is it 8 hours), I would think that we can reasonably certain about the possibility of issue #6 coming out next week. As a reminder, on August 13, GW said issue #6 "Just needs to be lettered and it's ready to go!". I noticed Diamond hasn't updated their listing to show what's expected on the 26th.

*pulls out a sack, jumps into the sack, and then disappears along with the sack.*
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 5:38:49 pm EDT from 216.96.17.171

Greg: It's held 4 ya.

Incivis: Email me for a price and shipping if you'd care. It's yours if you want it.
Battle Beast - [wlukinuk at telus dot net]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 5:23:29 pm EDT from 142.59.132.201

Eye of the Beholder October 1st - October 31st
Vows
City of Stone Part One: November 9, 1995
City of Stone Part Two: November 10, 1995
City of Stone Part Three: November 11, 1995
City of Stone Part Four: November 12, 1995
High Noon
Outfoxed
Revelations
Double Jeopardy
Upgrade
Protection
The Cage
The Price
Avalon Part One: December 27, 1995
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
Content makes poor men rich; discontentment makes rich men poor.
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 4:20:13 pm EDT from 159.240.11.254

I think Hacker giving Matt the pin was the date, and the date for "Revelations" is not yet in the GargWiki timeline.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
Content makes poor men rich; discontentment makes rich men poor.
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 2:58:38 pm EDT from 159.240.11.254

You mean the date when Hacker gave him the pin? I don't know if "Revelations" is already in the Timeline.

Or do you mean, was there a more official ceremony than just giving a pin, and when did that ceremony take place? ? I do wonder that. If they have a special ceremony or if a guy handing you a pin is all that happens.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 2:14:31 pm EDT from 138.192.73.137

Well in late November, early December Greg W. will hopefully tell us the date when Matt Bluestone became an Illuminati member.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
Content makes poor men rich; discontentment makes rich men poor.
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 1:18:17 pm EDT from 159.240.11.254

I find it surprising because it relates somewhat to the current story arc in the comic and he is usually reluctant to say anything about that.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 11:41:39 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

Very interesting! I also had thought he joined earlier. Now I wonder how long he had to wait or "apply" and how he got their attention ... and how exactly a new member is inducted.

I'm actually kind of surprised that Greg revealed this. Somehow I expected that since the Illuminati is so secretive, he'd be more secretive about them. Or something. I guess that makes no sense.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 10:55:45 am EDT from 63.225.145.250

Yes, that was something of a revelation. I was under the impression he'd been in with them for a while, say a handful of years or something. Now I see it was pretty recent, and explains why he's still a low tier rank.
Asatira
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 10:38:29 am EDT from 131.204.97.9

Sounds like a great month for Xanatos so far in Sept of 1995.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
Content makes poor men rich; discontentment makes rich men poor.
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 9:13:22 am EDT from 159.240.11.254

Audra> That's great! I didn't realize anybody except eBay was still taking online orders with stuff other than credit cards and Paypal. I'm glad SLG is doing what it can to make sure everybody's capable of purchasing.

And we're not going to beat on you for lurking. You were keeping yourself informed, which is much better than nothing. I'm doing the same with one of the forums on kingsnake.com because I haven't yet been able to purchase the snake I'd like to have. But in the meantime I'm learning a lot. ^_^
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [kth dot dragon at gmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 9:10:12 am EDT from 199.38.51.134

Wow, interesting "revelation" at Ask Greg today...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 7:41:48 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

Justin, you can actually buy the comics through SLG Publishing with check or money order too. :) But if you really wanted to get it from a fan I might be able to help. But I know with SLG Publishing you can send a money order, just check their FAQ page

(I know this seems weird me posting here since I never have before, but I silently check this site quite often, just don't have much to say heh)

I am getting anxious waiting for the date for the next comic... I guess because it's practically the middle of the month and still no word on a date. But hey, I bet it wont be as bad as the wait for the second comic. :P
Audra - [birdygirl85 at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 3:57:29 am EDT from 70.56.28.9

Justin> You can buy them online, so even if nobody can get them for you, you don't have to do without.

Kerry>

The problem their is I dont have a credit card...so I cant buy online...

Can anyone help me out? I'd even pay extra for anyones trouble....
Justin
posted @ Fri, Sep 14, 2007 1:57:30 am EDT from 74.135.61.121

Sorry for the double post

The thing about Pixiu that is probably not gargoyle-like is that they have no butt and can't poop! Quite a disability.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 9:43:44 pm EDT from 63.225.145.250

Kerry > The main ones are Pixiu. Pixiu (also spelled Pixie, Bixie) can be found on Wikipedia. That article mostly discusses small Pixiu that are used in modern Fung-Shui, but there are also larger stone statues of them. I have several urls of images of rather large Pixiu statues from around China, but I can't post multiple urls in a post here.
One website with more information on the statues (and a picture) is
http://www.iching-fengshui.com/products.htm
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 9:35:59 pm EDT from 63.225.145.250

Battle Beast: If nobody called your Applause Demona, I'd buy it off you.

Xanadu Gargs: (Didn't we have this same discussion when I brought it up?) Yes, I'm going with the idea that they resemble chinese dragons, but that that doesn't discount dragons (of whatever kind) existing elsewhere in the garg universe. It would have been interesting if Greg W chose something more obscure, but it does work for me.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 8:31:03 pm EDT from 216.36.154.204

Keep in mind that just because the Xanadu clan may resemble dragons, likely but not definitely Chinese dragons, it doesn't mean they are the origin of the lore about Chinese dragons. After all, Leo looks like a lion (as presumably do many other London clan gargoyles), but that doesn't mean that real lions don't exist. I wouldn't even necessarily count out griffins and unicorns, unless Greg W. has said that British gargs were the source of those tales. It's entirely possible that there are or were real dragons in China, or Oberon's Children taking on dragon forms (which would fit with the shapeshifting aspect, though I don't think Oberon and his ilk have exclusive rights to shapeshifting ability), or any manner of other creatures providing at least part of the origin for Chinese tales of dragons. Likewise, ober time, the Ishimura clan could have become mixed up in people's mind with some less benevolent beings (Oberon's Children against being a possibility, but I'm hesitant to attribute every mythic or folkloric creature to their ranks), thus creating the somewhat mixed views of the tengu.
Demonskrye
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 7:48:12 pm EDT from 209.6.249.41

Not directly part of the Xanadu clan conversation, but touching on it:

A likely mythological inspiration for the Ishimura clan in "Bushido" would be the Tengu, who appeared in Japanese legend as winged beings who sometimes taught humans bushido - which definitely fits the Ishimura gargoyles. However, the Tengu were also portrayed as magical beings who often played tricks upon humans, which evokes Oberon's Children (especially the tricksters among them, such as Puck). I don't know if this directly parallels the connections between the Xanadu gargoyles and Chinese dragons of the Lung variety, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 6:28:39 pm EDT from 4.245.23.92

Vaevictis> Do you remember what these statues are called? I'd like to read about them.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 6:24:53 pm EDT from 24.98.74.35

Matt > I'm saying that Chinese dragons have nothing in common with gargoyles. They are shapeshifting water spirits which are born and live their childhood in the form of carp. They can turn invisible. It almost seems, if Greg is indeed deciding that Xanadu gargoyles are simply Lung, that he picked Chinese dragons because they are the most famous Chinese myth, instead of researching to see if there are others.

Specifically, the Chinese have winged guardian statues very similar to European gargoyles. The sons of the dragon are some of these, though they are some of the least gargoyle-like of all the Chinese guardian statues. There are in particular statues which are almost identical to foo-dogs, except that they have wings and horns, and are specifically used to guard buildings from demonic forces and negative energy.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 5:11:02 pm EDT from 71.34.41.164

DPH> Does it really matter? Greg wrote the timeline, and this is his show. You're simply assuming things without anything from the canon to really base it on. I don't want to sound mean, but you did something similar when you found out about the Illuminati ranking system.

No where on Ask Greg, or in the show has it been stated that Coldstone has any nanite-tech at work in his system.

You say that he just suffered a single-shot. Well, a single-shot can do a great deal of damage. A single shot from the right bullet can destroy a skull.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Never hate your enemies. It clouds your judgement." - Michael Corleone.
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 4:54:04 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

I was assuming matrix like technology at work doing the self-repair systems. It was a single-shot to the chest that did Coldstone's body in. Depending on the availability of raw materials, 1-2 days I'm guessing to do the actual hardware repair. The software 'upgrade' is another story. I imagine the shell program to control Coldstone's body was either installed/activated or, in the worse case, had to be completely uploaded from scratch. I imagine the software 'upgrade' was done first and fully functional before the hardware repairs were started.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 4:46:06 pm EDT from 216.96.17.171

First off, to be entirely clear, the exact wording Greg used in this matter was this:

"...the gargoyles of Xanadu resemble small-scale dragons."

That really isn't a lot to go on since dragons could mean anything.

Another thought: The Xanadu Clan is the only SURVIVING Clan of gargoyles left in China. There were almost certainly others. And those others probably had other characteristics. Perhaps some of these other beings you two are mentioning were derived from these other clans.

As for the GargWiki, yeah, today I finished my work on all the clans. Naturally, feel free to edit at will, but I think I've gotten pretty much all we know into those entries, esspecially on some of the more obscure clans.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 3:57:21 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

They're not all like that, but I see what you mean. I know there are architectural decorations associated with certain functions listed in the Nine Children of a Dragon, including roof dragons that protect the house or swallow evil, and others that guard prison gates. Are those the ones you're talking about, or something else entirely?
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [kth dot dragon at gmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 3:22:02 pm EDT from 199.38.51.134

The Chinese have winged guardian statues just like the Europeans. I was so hoping Greg would do some research on them.

I just don't see any connection between gargoyles and shapeshifting river gods who are prayed to for rain.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 2:54:32 pm EDT from 138.192.30.187

I guess it depends on what type of Chinese dragon it is. There are many kinds of long (or lung), at least two of which are winged. There's also the singha, the lionish dragon. Depending on locality, the singha is anything from a scaled lion to a winged dragon with a lion's mane and a tufted tail.

True, there might be better choices for the basis of Xanadu gargoyles, and some cliches involved (gargs being the origin of the dragon legends, etc), but I won't say the choice is totally bad. Though I wouldn't mind seeing some gargs that resembled quilin. Those would be pretty. ^_^
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [kth dot dragon at gmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 2:47:15 pm EDT from 199.38.51.134

Over at the GargWiki, Matt has posted a bunch of additional information on the various clans. I assume this information comes from that special 2198 thing that Greg gave him after the Clan Contest.

I'm surprised by the information that the Xanadu gargoyles all look like Chinese Dragons. Chinese Dragons are wingless, serpentine, shapeshifting rain gods, and don't strike me as being remotely gargoyle-like. I'm very surprised and a bit disappointed that Greg chose to use them as gargoyles, when there are other mythical creatures in China that are very much more similar to gargoyles.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 2:22:42 pm EDT from 138.192.30.187

Battle Beast> I am interested in the Hudson. Still interested. I've just been in the middle of a big move. Hold on to it a little while longer, and in a week or so, I'll send payment.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Never hate your enemies. It clouds your judgement." - Michael Corleone.
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 1:36:40 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

Battle Beast - aww, you're evicting Hudson, Lex & Demona - you just getting rid of your Gargs stuff?
Wingless
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 1:17:03 pm EDT from 74.115.187.62

Hey... I have Hudson, Lexington and Demona APPLUASE figures for sale if anyone want's 'em.

Let me know.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 12:44:48 pm EDT from 142.59.132.201

Comic questions> Does Bad Guys #1 have a title besides "Issue #1"? Has the title just not been released yet? What about the cover, is the so called "Bao Guys" error gonna be corrected or is that just how D is stlyized for that type?
Is anyone else surprised/worried/baffled as to why the cover for Reunion hasn't been released yet?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 11:23:18 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

Demonskyre> that, and some people may not feel they need to be redeemed. Thailog at this time certainly doesn't see much value in the whole idea of redemption and all that goes with it. Demona may not see that she is in need of it, so the steps she has taken are, like you said, diverted by her actions and viewpoint that lead away from redemption.
Asatira
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 10:38:10 am EDT from 131.204.97.9

Justin> You can buy them online, so even if nobody can get them for you, you don't have to do without.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [kth dot dragon at gmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 8:44:47 am EDT from 199.38.51.134

Fox's Missing Week> How about Xanadu? Xanatos could have sent/brought her up their for some "recouperation" (read into that as much or as little as you wish) and to keep the press from hounding her so she could later move in with him without causing quite a much of a gossip storm. It's a thought, anyways.

The Path to Redemption> I haven't added Xanatos to the ally column just yet. I think I'm just phrasing my thoughts less clearly than I could be. Fox and Alex have clearly caused Xanatos to rearrange his priorities in life. I know that this doesn't make him a completely changed person and that goals like power and immortality are still very much on his radar. But his more recent actions do represent a step in the right direction. (Keep in mind also that neither we nor Xanatos know yet exactly what the Illuminati is really up to.) The path to redemption is not a straight line and you can certainly stray off of it, leave it permanently, or even move on or towards it without entirely intending to. For example, I think Angela's arrival and Demona's actions during "The Reckoning" represent Demona's first tentative steps toward the road that leads to the junction with the highway that connects up with the interstate that gets you to the state highway which has an exit that's a three huor drive from the path to redemption. She's certainly not a character who wants to be redeemed yet and it's going to take a lot for her to make any further progress, assuming that she doesn't take several steps backwards in the interim. But it's a start.
Demonskrye
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 7:42:51 am EDT from 209.6.249.41

DPH> Fox was a rich TV star, I guarantee you that she had a penthouse in Manhattan, or a home in Westchester or Long Island. There is no real mystery here.

As for Coldstone, he had sustained a lot of damage, and was at the bottom of the Hudson river... how long should it take him to repair?
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Never hate your enemies. It clouds your judgement." - Michael Corleone.
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 7:33:05 am EDT from 67.87.175.245

Taleweaver: Yeah, there is still something Demona loves more than her daughter, and that probably won't change anytime soon. If she attempts any sort of outreach, it will probably be to try and convince Angela that humans must all die.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"It doesn't matter what you look like on the outside, whether you're black, or white, or Sasquatch, even. As long as you follow your dream, no matter how crazy or against the law it is. Unless you're a Sasquatch. If you're a Sasquatch, the rules are different." -Meatwad
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 7:04:08 am EDT from 71.62.204.109

Fox might have stayed at a hotel or gone off to a spa for a few days to get herself a "just got out of jail" makeover.

"Does anybody have any theories on why it took Coldstone so long to self-repair?" - Well, like any DIY project, it always takes twice as long and costs three times as much as originally assumed. This one probably involved multiple trips to Home Depot and Radio Shack.

288 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"For unless they see the sky / but they can't and that is why / they know not if it's dark outside or light." - Elton John, "Mona Lisas and Mad Hatters"
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 6:55:33 am EDT from 68.76.120.247

Hmm, another interesting revelation from Greg Weisman:
September 13th...
1995
Fox moves into the Eyrie Building.

One wonders where Fox was staying between September 6th and September 13th. Of course, a bigger question is gradually forming: why did it take so long for Coldstone to self-repair after being told to do so on September 6th. Does anybody have any theories on why it took Coldstone so long to self-repair? The damages didn't look that severe unless it was taking a while because the Xanatos AI program to kick in.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 4:09:22 am EDT from 216.96.17.171

Hey room,

I just moved to Springfield, IL. And they dont have a shop that carries SLG here and none will order it for me. I was wondering I might be able to make arrangements with someone to pick me up issues 4- thru from now on so I can stay up to speed....

Thanks for anyones time
Justin
posted @ Thu, Sep 13, 2007 2:42:14 am EDT from 74.135.61.121

TALEWEAVER> Are you reading the comic? Xanatos is not settling in to family life, as you said. He is definitely up to something with the Illuminati. He is the gargoyles' host, but he's still an antagonist. And Demona is definitely still in the villain game. She's a heavy hitter.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Never hate your enemies. It clouds your judgement." - Michael Corleone.
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 11:47:35 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

Ah Demonskrye, don't underestimate Xanatos. He's developed a concern for his wife and son, but don't think that he isn't still just as amoral towards everything else. As I can see, that is still very much his worldview and he isn't on any path toward redemption. He's not out of the villains gallery. As for the gargoyles, feeling a debt to repay won't stop him from incidentally harming them or exploiting them for his own gain. He still wants power, money, and above all immortality.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 11:21:58 pm EDT from 63.225.152.144

Topic: Thailog? Monster or misunderstood
I recall in years previious that Greg and the other writers didn't believe in monsters. No one was pure evil, they may act in their own self-interest, even manipulated, but not evil for the joy of it. I think Thailog could be redeemed, but where would the fun be in that. With Xanatos and Fox settling into family life and Demona at least trying to reach Angela the Gargoyle Gallery of Rouges is missing some of its heavy hitters. I'd like to think Thailog, even one injured, maimed and possibly dying could still give our heroes more grief than is humanly or gargoyley possible.

What could redeem Thailog? I agree it would take a humbling experience. Love isn't in his cards. He needs to be dressed down before he can consider another way of life.
Taleweaver
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 10:56:12 pm EDT from 71.165.148.214

Matt> Ah, thanks for pointing that out. My Ask Greg searches all too frequently fail to find what I'm looking for, even when I kow it should be there, so I often rely on others to show me relevant answers from the archives. Not the most helpful answer, though, is it? Pretty much boils down to "Greg doesn't know, so make up something that sounds reasonable to you". I'm already formulating an amusing conversation where Demona explains to Xanatos why Coldstone needs a wig.

Jurgan> Hopefully you haven't checked out for the night just yet. I think Thailog's circumstances have some degree of tragedy to them, but I don't think that makes Thailog a tragic character. It's sad to think that the poor guy never really had a chance to be anything but a baddie, having been indoctrinated in a pretty direct way with what Xanatos believed at the time was his world view. Pretty much from the minute he got out of the tube, Thailog was Xanatos times ten: calculating, self serving, capable of using anyone and everyone around him, and lacking the ability to care about others that eventually put Xanatos on the path to redemption. So yes, it's sad to think that under different circumstances, Thailog might have been somewhat more like dear old "dad" (the genetic one). But then again, Thailog was only brought into being because Xanatos wanted to make a gargoyle who saw things (what he then felt was) his way. So you either get Thailog with zero morals or compassion, or you get no Thailog at all.

Is Thailog redeemable? In the sense that every living creature with free will is. But I think the odds are better on Demona given current circumstances. Thailog would either have to come to care about something or someone more than himself, which would likely have to happen against his wishes, or he would need to be humbled, bested so badly and so thoroughly that he can't carry on the Xanatos family tradition of finding the bright side of defeat. (Anyone else think that Brentwood might be up to the task, especially if he ends up following in Lex's "Future Tense" footsteps?) Otherwise, I don't see a reformed Thailog happening anytime soon. Who wants to be redeemed when you don't see anything wrong with how you're living right now (and it's so much fun besides)?
Demonskrye
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 9:47:11 pm EDT from 209.6.249.41

I agree that inasmuch as Thailog was created, programmed, and "raised" by very immoral people, he didn't get much chance to learn about morals or responsibility. But the same can be said for anyone who grows up in a disfunctional household and goes on to become a criminal. It is certainly tragic, but mitigating causes are still not excuses -- they don't really abrogate personal responsibility.

In "Double Jeopardy", Thailog actually considers sharing his money with Goliath. It isn't exactly a moral action, but I think that it was a sign that Thailog at least had a glimmering of the idea of empathy or friendship. So in a way, because of Goliath's tragic but very understandable first response, Thailog's situation is tragic. On the other hand, the way he seems to take glee in his depravity goes well beyond tragic and gets into sheer evil. I certainly don't think he's misunderstood.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 9:35:01 pm EDT from 63.225.152.144

I never thought Coldstone was all that Frankensteinian, myself. The way he was created, sure, but he wasn't really a "misunderstood monster," and he actually had three minds, as opposed to the Frankenstein monster's one. In a way, Thailog fits the archetype better, in the sense that someone had the arrogance to think he could create a life, and that being got out of his control and turned on him, determined to destroy its creator. Thailog's not really internally tortured, though- he's clearly having fun with his monstrous status. Then again, it could be seen as even more tragic than Frankenstein's monster- the monster had the potential to do good, and while it was neglected by the creator who should have given it moral guidance, it clearly shunned responsibility for its own actions, meaning it could have chosen differently. Thailog, on the other hand, gleefully accepts that his actions are of his own doing, but with the way he was created, I wonder if he ever had a chance to do otherwise. Well, his character is getting more depth as we progress. Maybe he'll learn empathy eventually, and then have to decide whether it matters to him enough to try to change his life, or whether he'll simply continue being the ultimate badass.

I have to go to sleep, but I hope someone responds to this, because I think there's the potential for a great conversation in here. So, the question is: Thailog: Evil villain or tragic monster?
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 9:13:19 pm EDT from 68.59.13.2

dph> Magic may play a small part in that, just as it was necessary for inputting the original personalities into the shells. I imagine that Coldsteel and Coldfire have pretty advanced and long lasting batteries of some sort, something possible within a few years of todays. Coldstone is probably very different due to the stone pieces involved. To be honest, looking at him doesn't really give the information needed as how he actually moves. Right now, I'd fudge and say magic, but I'm sure someone else can come up with a better answer.
Asatira
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 8:18:10 pm EDT from 75.143.82.72

Has anybody asked about what is Coldstone's, Coldfire's, and Coldsteel's power supply?

I'm also beginning to wonder, based on Ask Greg timeline, why it took so long to repair Coldstone after the events of ReAwakening.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 6:00:20 pm EDT from 216.96.17.171

Demonskyre> "The hair is an interesting question. I think it might be worth asking Greg what the deal is there."

Too late. I already did.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?sid=762408&qid=3543
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 4:52:30 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Demonskrye > Ah yes, you have a point. I should have specified "biologically alive" since that is normally what prevents flesh from decaying. But to counterpoint, Greg describes the Coldtrio as still being dead, simply reanimated. A finer point, but also tangential to my original question. It brings up another, more philosophical, though -- what counts as alive? There is the biological definition of life, but in Gargoyles at least, that definition doesn't apply to energy beings like the Children of Oberon or the Will-o-the-Wisp. And is there an even broader definition? Is a star alive on some level? Is a flame? Is a life-bearing planet collectively alive? Why is a "dead" soul not alive if it still exists?

Jon > I'm still working on a system to role-play Gargoyles. I'm using Storyteller System, though if I had the Basic Set I'd consider working with GURPS instead. When I actually get any of it finished, I'll be posting it at an RPG forum I know, just in case it stirrs up interest but also to get some balance pointers from the folks there.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 4:06:53 pm EDT from 71.34.56.92

VA> OK, I see what you're driving at. Yeah, Colstone probably isn't "alive" in the biological sense. I imagine the robotics fill in for what biological functions he still requires, which probably doesn't include things like eating. But I'm still not sure that not being biologically alive makes him "less alive" than something like Frankenstein's monster. In terms of cognitive abilities and coordination, I think Coldstone is doing quite a bit better. He could even be said to be "more alive" than Coldfire and Coldsteel, as he's still got some of his original body (and bodies of others) left while they are now just ghosts in the respective machines.

The hair is an interesting question. I think it might be worth asking Greg what the deal is there.

Jon> It is frustrating sometimes trying to replace pretty much any kind of advertizing campaign for the DVDs when you're just one person. I know I've come up against similar reactions. Much as we'd like to think that the show appeals to everyone and sells itself, there are people who just aren't interested. I do agree that the chances for Season Two Part Two do not look stellar now, but you can still try if you feel so inclined.

What episodes are you showing? This can make a lot of difference. Some people may want to show their friends their favorite episodes, but not realize that they don't have nearly the same impact if you haven't seen the rest of the series that they do if you have. On the other hand, showing "Awakening" in its entirety may not be the best way to start off either. It is the begining of the story, but it's also a much longer time commitment than a single episode. Unless someone specificly says they want to see the series from the start, I'd go with a stand alone season one episode, like "Thrill of the Hunt" or "Deadly Force". Keeping it to one or two half hour episodes presented in a casual way keeps people from feeling like you're trying to get them to sign up for this secret club. It is tempting to tell a potential new fan everything about a character they're seeing for the first time. (Heck, Greg Weisman himself can't seem to resist doing it on the "Awakening" commentary.) But try to keep it casual and don't stress too much if your friends aren't into it.

It sounds silly to ask here, but have you tried the internet? Have you checked to see if anyone might remember or be interested in the show on other message boards you frequent? If you favor a subtler approach, a "Gargoyles" themed avatar, screenname, or signature can stir up some conversation without you having to bring it up directly. Is there anywhere near you where you could put up an ad for the DVDs or the comic where interested people might see it, such as a comic shop? Are their any conventions near you where you could hand out flyers? Would your local library accept a donation of the 2 DVD sets (if you can afford them and they don't already have them)?
Demonskrye
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 2:32:52 pm EDT from 209.6.249.41

Vaedictis has an interesting point there Frankestein was actually alive Coldstone is only a conscious robot.
Demon@
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 1:33:52 pm EDT from 24.232.223.254

Wingless> It's probably not just the numbers themselves, but the timeframe. A hundred thousand copies over a day is a lot different than the same amount over a year. But it'd definitely be nice to have the sales figures given, especially by year (or some other time category). It'd give us a better idea of what we needed to accomplish to grab some real attention.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [kth dot dragon at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 12:46:03 pm EDT from 199.38.51.134

I personally would like to have the numbers for the sales of these things. They can justify a second Darkwing Duck, Tale Spin, Rescue Rangers (and I think they're up to 3 Duck Tales). Not to mention the other crap they throw out-the Zack & Codys-as well as the Power Rangers(I can't believe people are still watching that). If they can somehow justify those-what is the sales difference for Gargs 1 and 2 vol. 1 ?
Wingless
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 12:16:55 pm EDT from 74.115.187.62

Jon> I don't really think giving up is the way to go, since if we all gave up, the answer would definitely be no.

If you can't get personal friends to buy the DVDs, try to get them hooked on the comics. Maybe direct them here, mention the Gathering and encourage people to go. Blog about Gargoyles if you've got one, or post about the series, etc. to forums/message boards where people that might listen hang out (sci-fi, fantasy, anime, etc). If you play an MMORPG, let your guild members and other game friends know about it. If you go to other conventions, especially any that bring the Star Trek: TNG cast in as guests, mention it. Make a flyer and post it wherever you're allowed to (at cons, game stores, comic shops, and the like). Gargoyles came up at Dragon*Con this past year in the panel that contained Jonathan Frakes (Xanatos). That one question brought the series back to the minds of everyone in that room, and probably encouraged many to do some digging.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [kth dot dragon at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 11:58:45 am EDT from 199.38.51.134

Nah, I think it's still worth the effort. I wouldn't break the bank over it or spend copious amounts of time trying to recruit new fans if you're super-busy with school and work...but whatever you feel like doing.

There are some shows that started their first one or two DVD season set releases years ago and only now are seeing the rest come out. Some get held up on music rights issues, but some have the same problem Gargoyles has and simply need to have enough copies sold for the studio to justify releasing the remainder of the series.

I still see Gargoyles kicking around some stores. I'm not sure how readily they re-order it once it sells out. One of my jobs is working part time one or two nights a week at a Toys R Us electronics department. I've searched it, I still see it in the system as active. But we haven't had any copies since last fall (and only Season 2 Part 1). I have no control over orders, the Buena Vista lady comes in every so often and does all that for us, sets up displays and such. I've asked her about Gargoyles, she has no clue. We've gotten a good number of third and fourth shipments for Ducktales, Chip & Dale, Gummi Bears, and I think Darkwing Duck as well (unfortunately we've still got the same copies of Talespin Volume 1 that we started out with last year, which I think is a huge shame since it was one of the better Disney animated show).
Kris - [plekopleko at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 11:52:01 am EDT from 24.137.192.172

I don't know if I should be asking this, but I've started to lose all hope that the second half of Season 2 will ever come out. It has some of my favorite episodes that I would just love to revisit (the Japanese gargoyles, the Easter Island episode, Demona and Angela's mother-daughter drama over that course of the season). I tried to get people to buy the DVDs that are out there now and even tried to turn what animation nerds I know onto the series, but it all seems fruitless. Nobody I've talked to seems interested in the series even after I show them some of the episodes from the DVD.

I feel like I should just give up. At this point, would that be the smart thing to do given the lack of results I'm getting for my effort?
Jon
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 11:05:49 am EDT from 69.137.97.3

Vaevictis> The hair is probably something like a wig. I'm not sure that even reanimated stone hair would split into each individual strand and/or regain its full flexibility, so it'd be easier to deal with hair from another source. Though I'm not sure whether natural (like horsehair) or synthetic would have been used.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [kth dot dragon at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 11:02:36 am EDT from 199.38.51.134

The major thing that makes his appearance confusing to me is that white, clearly not-stone hair. I imagine both of his eyes are mechanical, since Greg's reveals seem to imply that eyes don't turn to stone with the rest of the gargoyle (and brains couldn't either, if they dream). But if hair doesn't turn to stone (which I suspect would be impossible) but is only covered by a layer of secretion from the scalp, it would have decayed pretty fast. Did Demona insist on giving him a wig to make him lifelike?

The reason I say he isn't as alive and the Frankenstein's monster, is because the monster, from my understanding, was re-animated by re-starting biological processes and therefore became biologically alive. Whereas Coldstone clearly isn't biologically alive, or he would change to flesh at night as part of his biological processes. Plus he was animated partly by magic, while the monster from what I know was not.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 10:24:20 am EDT from 71.34.56.92

Yeah, Greg got to have his own little undead monster. I think in some of the DVD commentary, he even calls Coldstone his Frankenstein (or something like that).

Something that had me confused for a long time was Coldstone's nonmechanical bits being from 3 differently colored gargs, but all the same color. Thankfully that got answered at the Gathering. I'd thought the bits were alive, but they're just reanimated stone, which was all the same color to begin with. Yay for things finally making sense. ;P
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [kth dot dragon at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 10:02:18 am EDT from 199.38.51.134

VA> Could you elaborate on why you feel Coldstone is not alive as much as Frankenstein's monster is? I think the main difference is just that a sleeping or dead in stone sleep gargoyle looks significantly different from a living, awake one, whereas humans look pretty much the same when their awake, alive, sleeping, or (recently) dead. The accounts of exactly how the monster was made and looked as a result vary, from Shelley's somewhat vague description of the monster's construction that seems to indicate a creature assembled from various body parts which ended up looking quite large and hideous, to the classic Karloff green-skinned neck bolts version, to a rather large corpse retrofitted with the brain of one Abby Normal. But generally, Frankenstein's monster is though of as pieces of multiple dead bodies assembled and given life . The fact that Coldstone is reanimated stone doesn't strike me as something that makes him more zombie-like than Frankenstein-like. (Unless you're going by the TGC representation of gargoyle death, which is probably not a good idea. Coldstone was assembled from shattered stone gargoyles and it would seem there is no way we currently know of to reverse the flesh to stone transformation after the individual dies. So he's pretty much a living statue with some robot parts, which I don't think is the gargoyle equivalent of a zombie.

It's been mentioned on Ask Greg and I brought it up again on GargWiki, but Coldstone's design is probably one of the more problematic ones in terms of conveying what he is. Since Coldstone's reanimated stone parts look virtually identical to Othello's skin color in flashback and "inside Coldstone" sequences, it's very hard for the audience to know that he is a living stone gargoyle (with robot parts, in case you forgot). If Othello had been orange, the contrast would have been much clearer. Similarly, I kind of wish Coldstone's design was a little more angular, like the artwork we usually see of the clan during the day. Don't get me wrong, I love Coldstone's design as a design (when he's draw on model, anyway). I just think it could be better at representing the fact that he is, in fact , cold stone brought to life.
Demonskrye
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 9:58:17 am EDT from 209.6.249.41

Of course, the way that Coldstone was created in "Re-Awakening" definitely had "Frankenstein parody" written all over it (though the only part of it that might be considered parodic was Xanatos following up his cry of "It's alive! It's alive!" with "I've always wanted to say that").
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 7:36:52 am EDT from 4.244.215.167

Coldstone is made up of parts from the bodies of several gargoyles. Sounds more like a Frankenstein's monster to me.

289 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"It's alive... ALIVE!" - Dr. Frankenstein
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 6:59:11 am EDT from 68.76.120.247

I think the magic rejuvenates Coldstone's "stone" parts just as Goliath and co. did not erode over the thousand years. His stone will keep on being stone. Though I'm sure a stick of dynamite would (re)kill him.
As for his cybernetic parts, I can't see why they couldn't be upgraded in time. Same with Coldsteel and Coldfire for that matter.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Wed, Sep 12, 2007 6:17:21 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

Sorry, I meant classic.

I am sooo tired.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 11:37:27 pm EDT from 71.34.56.92

Coldsteel and maybe also Coldfire have this nano-healing technology, but poor Coldstone is just a zombie. Will his stone parts start crumbling, or will the magic that animated him prevent this? He isn't alive in the same way Frankenstein's monster seems to be, and rotting in action is a classing zombie thing to do.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 11:36:38 pm EDT from 71.34.56.92

Jurgan> Actually, I thought the same thing and asked Greg about it a few years back. He said that the Matrix technology is indeed related to Coldsteel's healing ability.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/archives.php?lid=21&qid=3536
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 11:29:46 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Siren: I didnts see that movie But as soon as I get to see it, I will check on the video :)
Demon@
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 9:04:16 pm EDT from 24.232.223.254

Actually, given what we saw Coldsteel do (healing in particular), I wouldn't be surprised if it's made from nanotechnology as well. Both it and Matrix were created by Xanatos Enterprises, after all.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 8:46:38 pm EDT from 68.58.253.104

And we all know that Captain Kirk would hammer punch their asses back to the stone age. But yeah, as far as real spacemen are concerned: those suits might weigh nothing in space, but down on the ground, they're heavy as hell. Which makes it harder to avoid stone axes and such.

How about cowboys versus dinosaurs?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"It doesn't matter what you look like on the outside, whether you're black, or white, or Sasquatch, even. As long as you follow your dream, no matter how crazy or against the law it is. Unless you're a Sasquatch. If you're a Sasquatch, the rules are different." -Meatwad
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 8:02:34 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

Cavemen vs. astronauts> Depends on which version of the astronauts you're thinking of. If you're thinking of present day, very scientist astronauts, cavemen hands down. If they're more sci-fi adventurer astronauts, it'd be tougher call. I'd bet cavemen could get a couple surprise ambushes and get a few out early on, but the astronauts would figure things out and have fire power. However, in regards to endurance, it'd probably swing back to cavemen.

Matrix would beat Coldsteel. Highly adaptive supercomputer nanites with the power to back it up versus a self-healing robot: close call, but I think Coldsteel would be overwhelmed.
Asatira
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 7:03:15 pm EDT from 24.197.70.164

Aw come on, small robots like the yellow cybot fliers, and um, how about firebreathing dragons instead of dinosaurs?

I also think Coldsteel vs. Redemption Squad could be interesting, as long as one vs. many wasn't too much. I think Matrix probably > Coldsteel.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 6:37:42 pm EDT from 216.160.55.129

Vaevictis> "You know what would really rock? If Timedancer somehow included a fight between robots and dinosaurs. :)"

If cavemen and astronauts got into a fight, who'd win?
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 6:31:37 pm EDT from 67.87.175.245

*peeks in* Oh thank God, you finally stopped the politics discussion.

I don't mind off-topicness itself, but I try to avoid discussions that I know will make me angry. And if the discussion does hijack the room to the point that all other topics die, I think it's better to stop.

I've never seen the leica reel so I don't know about those robots. I think that the Bad Guys are going to quickly start getting into Illuminati plots. Greg said that this was a story that needed to be told now, and I suspect that he's working on an Illuminati arc to which the current Gargoyles and Bad Guys action both belong.

Giant killer robots seem a bit... conspicuous for the Illuminati, but I guess I know too little about them to know that.

Who do I want to see battle the Squad? Proteus would be fun, and Demona's always great though I don't know how either would end up fighting the Squad. Children of Oberon would be fun too. The Ultra-Pack I'm not very interested in.

You know what would really rock? If Timedancer somehow included a fight between robots and dinosaurs. :)
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 6:13:39 pm EDT from 216.160.55.129

DPH> If I recall correctly, the RECAP robot and software was created by Xanatos Industries, so it was in his power to give it to the police as a gift of sorts. Xanatos being who he is, had things planned, as shown at the end of the episode when he gathered the data Coldstone had stolen, and the RECAP had in turn downloaded from Coldstone. What can I say, David is one heck of a magnificent b**tard.
Asatira
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 3:22:37 pm EDT from 131.204.219.196

This day in Gargoyles' Universe History just threw out one theory I had.
**Spoilers**
I had thought perhaps that Demona had covertly arranged to get covertly get Titania's mirror into Manhattan.
**End Spoilers**

I'd also like to point out a past date in gargoyles universe history:
September 6th. Fox is granted an expedited parole hearing at the request of grateful prison authorities. She receives an early parole and is reunited with Xanatos. Matt is certified to operate R.E.C.A.P. Elisa tells Lexington about R.E.C.A.P. Coldstone's self-repair systems are activated by Xanatos.
**Spoilers**
Does anybody think its concidence that Coldstone's self-repair systems are activated by Xanatos on the same day Matt is certified to use RECAP? I'm thinking Xanatos was waiting for somebody (Matt, perhaps) to be certified to use RECAP before activating Coldstone's self-repair systems.

Also, another point to behold: Greg started TIGUH on April 7th. As of yet, Greg Weisman hasn't set a date for when Matt started studying to use RECAP. I know this seems silly, but given the seemingly limited functionality of RECAP, why would Matt have to spend 5+ months learning how to use it? Was most of the time spent learning how to drive it?
**End Spoilers**
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 12:55:52 pm EDT from 71.30.135.195

Patrick - Listening to the radio right now-and a caller is blathering on with a conspiracy theory about how the US Government brought the WTC towers down with "Controlled demolition" in order to "Consolidate power" and "enslave" all of us. It's really frightening how many people believe this crap and try their best to convince others that it's truth.
Wingless
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 11:53:37 am EDT from 74.115.187.62

Matt> I don't know why you're asking me, but I think someone was posing the question of the first to defect from the squad or cause trouble within.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"What you're passionate about, from a cartoon standpoint, has to do with what age you were when you very first saw it." ~Greg Weisman
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 8:06:16 am EDT from 71.173.7.54

Would those complaining about how discussion on here should only be about "Gargoyles" like some cheese to go with the whine? Because on this day of all days, I'm not about to let that stop me from going "off topic" with this:

* * * * *

Six years ago this morning on a bright sunny day, thousands of people headed to work at the WTC and the Pentagon, while hundreds more boarded planes for business trips and vacations. Not one among them knew that the whole world was about to change, or that 2,998 of them would never return home. Let us never forget what this nation lost that day.

* * * * *

290 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Let's roll." - Todd Beamer
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 7:04:38 am EDT from 66.72.204.206

Matt: <How would the Redemption Squad battle Fang (a member of the Squad)?> Probably after Fang takes the last Pop-Tart (and he seems like the type who'd never chip in for groceries).

And I don't think we fought over Steve Irwin. I think we all agreed he was dead.

*POSSIBLE SPOILERS*
As far as Bad Guys are concerned, it wouldn't surprise me if Greg came up with a new villain. We're five issues into the main comic, and we already have new characters.
*END SPOILERS*

Siren: Hey, I found it amusing. In fact, I think you beat me to it. ( ;

And on a technical note, does anyone know where the website demona-obsession.org has moved to? I was hunting for some screenshots for something last night, and it seems to have gone astray.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Your people were instruction manuals?" -Invader Zim
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 6:30:51 am EDT from 71.62.204.109

Jurgan> Well, you'll notice that no one said anything until the Room cleared. That seems to be the signal for non-Gargoyles topics esspecially to end or move elsewhere. That and the fact that only two or three people were participating at all anymore and the rest of the regulars were MIA. Consider a new fan coming in, what would they say?

Battle Beast> What guy? Steve Irwin?

TTTony> How would the Redemption Squad battle Fang (a member of the Squad)?

Another thought: Greg said that we would see what those robot things in the Bad Guys leica reel finally are. I wonder if they have to do with Cyberbiotics cybots or Scarab Corporation creations. It'll be interesting to see who made them and why the Bad Guys are fighting them. It'll be fun to see the Leica Reel in comic form too.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 5:54:29 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

LIek the time we fought over that other guy and it last a MONTH. UGH.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Tue, Sep 11, 2007 12:11:46 am EDT from 142.59.132.201

Sorry for the doubly, I wasn't being nasty. I was being a smart-ass. There's a big difference :D
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 10:24:27 pm EDT from 68.202.76.113

Jurgan>Its not that. We have had discussions here about movies and such. I remember a week long off and on of talking about Steve Irwin's death. And off topic discussion is tolerated, to a certain extent. At some point its like, "Just stop.". This isn't a message board where we can organize topics. And politics usually spells disaster. Not to mention the school talk got immensely boring very fast.

Demona@> oh yes, I've made a lot since then. Just not Gargoyles lately, but I will be making more of those soon enough. Click my name for my YouTube Channel to see what I've got up now. I highly recommend Spirit Horse of the Cherokee. Like no other video I have ever attempted and I am very proud of it.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 10:23:21 pm EDT from 68.202.76.113

Is Arn Anderson a Gargoyles fan?
Nickerous
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 9:59:11 pm EDT from 63.135.41.17

Sigh... why do people always get so snippy when we veer off topic? Geez, we're people who've known each other for years and have been talking about the same show for the whole time, yet we're not allowed to occasionally talk about something else?
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 9:02:23 pm EDT from 68.59.13.169

In the words of John Goodman in an SNL skit, "I rule this school."
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"What you're passionate about, from a cartoon standpoint, has to do with what age you were when you very first saw it." ~Greg Weisman
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 8:46:30 pm EDT from 71.181.217.88

Siren: dont be nasty Hey I was waiting to see you around Any new video clips yet? The last one I saw was the femmale fatale one
Demon@
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 8:42:03 pm EDT from 190.16.193.54

*her head slips off her hand and hits the desk* Huh? Wha? *wipes drool away from her lips and her eyes adjust to the light* Did someone say Gargoyles? I had a nightmare that I was reading long boring posts about the school sys---*scans the posts below* Oh.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 8:22:44 pm EDT from 68.202.76.113

I agree with Matt at this point. It was fun for a while, but, with the way this room is structured, eventually the topic drifts must come to an end. There were a couple points I wanted to respond to, but I'll refrain and let Marty have the last word for the room's sake. If I want to debate Libertarianism, there are other places I can do it.

The Ultra-Pack is a natural set of villains for Bad Guys, since A: they're a team and B: one of their ex-members is in The Redemption Squad. However, I doubt we see them in the first arc. Greg said that he wants to limit characters from Gargoyles for the time being, so that the spin-off can stand on its own two feet. So I doubt we see the Pack members. They're not exactly major characters, but I can't see the story of the Ultra-Pack's formation being told without Xanatos being involved. I asked Greg point blank if Xanatos would be in the first Bad Guys arc and he said no. So I'm holding out for the Ultra-Pack to make an appearance in the second arc (fingers crossed!), but I think their first story will be in mainstream Gargoyles. I expect we get a lot of new characters in the first story arc.

Proteus vs. Matrix would be fun, yeah, although Greg might be saving him for New Olympians. Matrix is going to have to be depowered in the second arc, so he's probably going to get out of control and be a villain of sorts for that arc. The other villain I can think of who might work is Coldsteel. We know he will ally with Coyote at one point, so I guess that could be part of the same Ultra-Pack story.

And I think we know that the Illuminati will be a villain. I wonder how a fight with the Illuminati will take place, though. I assume it'll be through proxies, and very few actual Illuminati members will be in the fight.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 7:49:15 pm EDT from 68.59.13.169

Bad Guys> Hmmm... tough choice.

On pure instinct, Fang would be my first choice.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 7:20:15 pm EDT from 76.247.68.145

With Matt on this. This type of discussion is not what the room is for.

Canon bad guy to go against the Redemption Squad> Hmm, that's interesting, namely because the team has most of the ones I'd think of. The rest would be in the Ultra Pack, and they're the closest we have to conventional bad guys. It'd certainly be a battle royale, with both sides bringing a lot of power. I'd like to see Matrix in action against Coyote.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 6:44:26 pm EDT from 68.119.88.31

In an attempt to bring this somewhat back on target, what type of education do you think Alexander Xanatos will receive?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 6:43:54 pm EDT from 71.29.245.38

Ooookay. I find this discussion interesting and all, I really do, but for the sake of the Room, I think it's time for it to be taken elsewhere.

And in the hopes of starting a Gargoyles related topic, what canon Gargoyles "bad guy" would you be most excited to see face off against the Redemption Squad (Hunter, Dingo, Matrix, Yama and Fang)?

Personally, I have always thought a Redemption Squad vs. the Ultra-Pack would be neat. Watching Proteus and Matrix spar would be pretty cool too.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 6:38:34 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

dph >> I don't know. How long did it take for the big spenders in government to tap Social Security for reckless spending? Social Security - the only retirement plan I know where your withholdings earn Debt instead of Interest. :P

As to bond financing, the problem in most towns is that the tax-hike for the bond payments is A.) in excess of the actual cost of principle and interest and B.) never expires when the bond is paid for. Ergo, each new bond is a new tax while the old tax that which ought to pay for the new bond continues onward. Of course, you can always "refinance" the bond while rolling it into some other spending and sweep it under the rug.

Again, something governments does on a regular basis that it sends sends private businessmen to jail for doing in the Private Sector.
Marty Lund - [kaioto at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 5:51:37 pm EDT from 67.128.112.166

L.T. Williams wrote >>

<< Actually, I disagree. It takes a relatively small percentage of students to bolt before a school is "gutted". Economics of scale go away, and the school's finance structure no longer makes any sense. >>

For the sake of argument, I'll point that in most cases where school vouchers are most badly needed the school's financial structure already makes no sense. Witness Washington D.C.'s expenditure of almost twice as much per student as numerous public, charter, and private schools for way worse results.

<< At the threat of busing in my community in the 70s, a small percentage of public school students -- the small percent that could afford to -- bolted out of white flight from the elementary school that I had attended as a child... a wonderful place with much parental involvement. >>

I spent the first 25 years of my life living in Boston - perhaps the most iconic city on record as it comes to issues of public education, busing, and "white flight," from neighborhoods. It's pretty easy to observe what happened in Boston in neighborhoods similar to the one's you describe.

A.) Parents who feared school integration / busing didn't just enroll their students elsewhere. They moved out of the ~ city ~.

B.) Consequently, property values in those neighborhoods dropped through the floor.

C.) Tax revenues for public schools came mainly from local property taxes.

D.) When B meets C the entire budget basis for the city school system collapsed.

That wasn't due to "school choice." That was due to people moving out of neighborhoods and becoming invalid targets for property taxes. A free-choice system with a metropolitan area or a state-wide area would not require anyone to leave town in order to gain the benefits of competitive education markets.

<< Two years later, the school was closed. Ten years after that, the campus was leased as a private school. That lasted for two years, and then that school went out of business. About ten years after that it reopened as a charter school. It seems to be doing well, though of course I have no idea if it's struggling financially or not. But let's say for the sake of argument it's not. Mission accomplished.. And what's a twenty-four year transition, right? >>

There's one key issue you haven't addressed in this: How many children didn't have any schools to attend?

Seriously. Individual buildings and bureaucracies are largely immaterial from the a purely educational perspective. The key is the children's access to resources. While turnover generally upsets the Teacher's Union - they aren't paid to look out for the best interests of anyone but dues-paying union members. (Not a bad thing, considering they are agents of their members, but don't forget what the Union's job is.)

Also, was busing actually implemented? If so, is it at all possible that some schools closed because the students were redistributed to other schools? I mean, redistribution of students and the elimination of higher-quality or lower-quality segregated neighborhood schools was pretty much the goal of busing, no?
Marty Lund - [kaioto at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 5:42:38 pm EDT from 67.128.112.166

L. T. Williams - <Economics of scale go away, and the school's finance structure no longer makes any sense.> We have trouble achieving economies of scale with small school districts (less than 500 students); the superintendents of those districts suddenly became very busy lobbying to prevent consolidation of school districts to achieve cutting costs. A large private school operating across many cities and/or more states does a much better job with economies of scale. There was actually a study down in my state of how much money could be saved by reducing the number of school districts to 1 per county. It was a huge amount of money. There were campaigns against it by superintendents trying to equate consolidating school districts with losing local schools, which had nothing to do with the issue. In extremely rural areas, it might be cheapier to equip students with limited high speed internet connection to enable long-distance learning than to buy buildings/bus students long-distances. Also, this could cut the cost of hiring additional teachers so that schools could share teachers. This wouldn't complete the need for buildings, but you're only need buildings for students to take tests in a standard environment.

Marty Lund - <To be fair, though, you ~ might ~ be able to work around this by going with the bond plan - buy the building on the bond and then pay down the bond over time. > That's what they do. School districts vote to issue bonds and raise the tax rate slightly to pay for the improvements over a longer period of time. Of course, I have a theoritical question. Suppose a government managed to save enough money up so that the interest earned from the savings could pay for most things. How long would you give it before liberals moved in and decided to provide more services, thus eliminating the savings?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 5:30:26 pm EDT from 71.29.245.38

Marty wrote: "See, using words like "dismantle" and "gut" is good use of descriptive imagery, but ultimately misleading. A school can not be "gutted by vouchers" unless parents choose to send their children elsewhere. If they have an "elsewhere" to send them then there is a supply to meet the demand in question. If there is not, then there is no "gutting.""

Actually, I disagree. It takes a relatively small percentage of students to bolt before a school is "gutted". Economics of scale go away, and the school's finance structure no longer makes any sense. At the threat of busing in my community in the 70s, a small percentage of public school students -- the small percent that could afford to -- bolted out of white flight from the elementary school that I had attended as a child... a wonderful place with much parental involvement. Two years later, the school was closed. Ten years after that, the campus was leased as a private school. That lasted for two years, and then that school went out of business. About ten years after that it reopened as a charter school. It seems to be doing well, though of course I have no idea if it's struggling financially or not. But let's say for the sake of argument it's not. Mission accomplished.. And what's a twenty-four year transition, right?

I think gut is a fair word.

(Sure, sure, the culprit was busing. But the cause isn't the point. It's the result. And I'm back to wondering if the public school is drastically damaged by voucher flight or whatever flight and there aren't enough private and/or charter schools (or at least slots in these schools) for every kid -- particularly the most troubled and disadvantaged and underprivelidged and parent challenged -- and if vouchers don't cover the cost without economics of scale, then where do these kids wind up? Once again, Marty, I'd like to think vouchers would work. I'd LOVE to think they would work. But I don't get how they can... without making things tremendously worse for a perhaps small but certainly substantial percentage of kids.)
L.T. Williams
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 5:13:03 pm EDT from 71.93.81.240

dph >> << Name a public school that's tightly strapped for cash that sets aside money for new construction. None do. Yea, it's about politics. No public school district will be able to set money back in savings for new construction without the public at large demanding a rate deduction. Conservatives see a budget surplus as an opportunity to reduce taxes and liberals see a budget surplus as an opportunity to increase spending. Tell me which political side sees a budget surplus as an opportunity to set money back for a rainy day. >>

That's my point exactly.

To be fair, though, you ~ might ~ be able to work around this by going with the bond plan - buy the building on the bond and then pay down the bond over time. You just have to remember that you need to budget for paying down the bond. Politicians and bureaucrats have a nasty habit of spending without regard for the actual cost of money.

What's worse, they often like to over-spend on their junkets and pork-projects first. Then they take the ruined budget and cry poor-mouth - claiming there just isn't enough money for schools, police, or firefighters. We've got exactly that scam going on in Phoenix right now. We've got a Proposition #1 that wants to raise taxes for 500 fire-fighters and 1000 police. However, we voted funds for those new hires into the budget ~ last year ~ and the mayor's office redirected the funds into vote-buying scams.

It isn't a coincidence that primary responsibilities of any given government bureaucracy or office seems to be the last things paid for in the budget. Citizens don't normally vote for overrides to pay for the pet projects and pork-spending that bureaucrats and politicians use to grease wheels.

Again, that's why my real gripe is the fact that anyone with agency over other people's money - such as a CEO or Board of Directors of a publicly traded company - would be thrown in jail for these kinds of practices.
Marty Lund - [kaioto at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 4:51:43 pm EDT from 67.128.112.166

Regarding issue #6,
Greg responds...
Issue 6 is pencilled and colored. Just needs to be lettered and it's ready to go!
Response recorded on August 13, 2007

From the slg blog:
2007/08/30 9:58 am
I don't know. I just don't know. Our comics distributor, Diamond, is confusing me lately. Purchase orders from them are coming in late and our books aren't appearing on their ship lists. So I'm not sure when books are going to be in stores. They're not getting there based on when the printed books ship from the printer, that's for sure.

Issue #6 is stuck at either Disney's office or the slg printer.

TiniTinyTony - A beter question might be when was the last time slg released a new comic and when the next slg comic is coming out. A few items got moved from an expected release date of August to September.

I hope it's too early to worry about problems with the release schedule of Gargoyles comics again, but next week might be the time to get concerned. Wait a minute, the 26th is the last Wednesday of this month. I guess no announced release date by the 19th is a time to get worried.

I hope that somebody knows/remembers the answer to this question: Assuming a comic got Disney's approval today, how long would it take before it could get printed/released?

Marty Lund - Name a public school that's tightly strapped for cash that sets aside money for new construction. None do. Yea, it's about politics. No public school district will be able to set money back in savings for new construction without the public at large demanding a rate deduction. Conservatives see a budget surplus as an opportunity to reduce taxes and liberals see a budget surplus as an opportunity to increase spending. Tell me which political side sees a budget surplus as an opportunity to set money back for a rainy day.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 4:03:44 pm EDT from 71.29.245.38

On the tentative comic list for 9/19 from Diamond, Gargoyles #6 is NOT listed.

http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/expected_091907.txt
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
Content makes poor men rich; discontentment makes rich men poor.
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 3:04:29 pm EDT from 159.240.11.254

dph >> << When you have to build new facilities to accomodate a growing student population, you can't cut enough money from the budget to pay for a new building, but I've known a few people who apparantly think so. >>

Well, unless your old building got destroyed by some sort of sudden disaster, a responsible accountant budgets for the need for new infrastructure over time. Sometimes you take out a loan or bond and pay it back over the life of the building, while amortizing the building's value over its life. Sometimes you set aside money from the annual budget to be invested or saved until the time comes to buy a new building.

That's how it works with businesses when people's livelihoods are at stake. However, in Politics things are seldom done responsibly. Everyone blows the whole budget every year so as to avoid budget cuts (or budget increase reductions - which are apparently now also "cuts" in Newspeak). Then when an extremely predictable (in this case, inevitable) expense comes up, or a cyclical correction in the economy causes a revenue short-fall everyone is caught with their pants down and needs a "temporary" and "emergency" tax-hike.

It isn't footing the bill that bothers me so much as the fact that anyone practicing this sort of book-keeping in a public corporation would be held criminally liable by the SEC.
Marty Lund - [kaioto at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 1:52:08 pm EDT from 67.128.112.166

L.T. Williams >>

<< Let's not pretend that currently their are enough options (private, parochial, religious, charter, whatever, etc) already in existence to service all the kids in this nation. So once we dismantle (or gut) the public school system with vouchers or some equivalent, where do these kids go? >>

See, using words like "dismantle" and "gut" is good use of descriptive imagery, but ultimately misleading. A school can not be "gutted by vouchers" unless parents choose to send their children elsewhere. If they have an "elsewhere" to send them then there is a supply to meet the demand in question. If there is not, then there is no "gutting."

<< I know you're not saying this literally, but you argue as if ONLY public schools are subject to the paranoia and fear and bull associated with lawsuits, protests, politics etc. But I'm sure you know as well as I that that's far from true. >>

The differences are night and day. Schools with any sort of charter and voluntary enrollment do not need to duck, "Freedom of Speach," lawsuits on behalf of children that dress disruptively, for example. Frankly, agreements and voluntary enrollment make School Discipline enforceable in a way that Government Public Schools can never achieve in the USA. I've seen this distinction in action and it makes a huge difference on a most fundamental level. That's the biggest problem at the crux of so many failing inner-city schools where parents are demanding vouchers for alternative enrollments.

Meanwhile, protests and politics really don't impact schools with voluntary enrollment and personal agreements anywhere near the way they impact Government Schools. Since hirings and firings are not answerable to a politician the vulnerability is much more limited. Only the threat of having one's charter or public funding revoked would really matter, and the bar for that sort of thing is typically set extremely high since the institution in question can sue in retaliation and obtain an injunction.

No, the school would be a lot more worried about running off the parents enrolling their children than being made pawns in some stupid State or Local politicking.

<< And would be even less true if there were no true public school system. Of course, liability issues are huge for private schools even now. Insurance bills are massive, particularly when there are no economics of scale attached to help mitigate the premiums. >>

Yet private schools (and in some states, publically funded charters continue to multiply. It appears that they find that their private agreements and voluntary enrollment provide them with far less exposure to liability from many angles, so they can scratch together enough savings to cover higher costs of insurance for things live health and safety.

<< There are plenty of neighborhoods scattered all over our country where "competition" has dictated that it is not an economically sound decision to put a bank branch, to put a movie theater... to put a super-market. Everyone needs food, and yet... hey! No super-market for them. So how can we assure that every neighborhood gets the way more complex problem of having a school? >>

Well, there is an apples-to-oranges logic fallacy right there. Supermarkets, movie theaters, and banks depend on the private income of the residents to generate revenues. Neighborhoods with low income don't spend enough money to make these businesses viable. Schools are funded by Tax Dollars based on head-count. Ergo, there is a fixed baseline of income-per-student that comes from the government. Considering the higher population density, it is also likely that they can recover some of their economies of scale in these situations.

As I've already noted, the largest cry for vouchers and school-choice comes from the poor trapped in the inner cities. These are the neighborhoods you worry can't get schools. Apparently there already are schools, but these folks can't afford to send their kids there. Why can't they afford it? Because all the Public Funds for Education are dumped into a government-run, Union-owned school system that's failing their children.

<< A school with little money can still be a fantastic school with both parental participation and parental support of what -- for lack of a better term -- I'll call the "Education Ethic". A school with a ton of money can be worthless if parents neither participate nor support the program. >>

Exactly. Getting parents involved from the very beginning - deciding which school to send their child to - puts the onus squarely where it belongs. As I've noted, it takes away some of the most common rationalizations people use to avoid Education Ethic. It isn't a panacea, but it is a step in the right direction.

<< So yeah, how can we expect our government to regulate private schools when they've done such a lousy job regulating public schools? Well, here's the alternative: ask the parents to regulate, right? >>

The government will do the same basically inadequate job as they do now. So standards won't fall any further than they already are. On the other hand, market forces will provide an additional incentive in the upwards direction. They do with ~ existing ~ private, parochial, and charter schools.

The alternative is to conclude that the citizenry are too stupid and helpless to be allowed to make even the most fundamental decisisions about raising their children and have the State confiscate them. Of course, that's kind of what's already going on in Public Schools already.

Jurgan >> Sorry, but I'm not a big fan of Alfie Kohn. "'When I'm doing a workshop, I like to ask teachers, 'Which is larger, 5/19 or 7/22?' Almost everyone gets this wrong, especially math teachers. The correct answer is, Who cares?" - yeah, I want this guy dictating Education Policy. '"I would like to be able to say that my current ideas about education spring directly from my own classroom experience," he has written, "but they really don't." It was, rather, his "search for practical alternatives to competitive structures" that led him to the idea of "cooperative learning."'

But at least he carries a ringing endorsement from Noam Chomsky, right?. Alfie Kohn makes it a point to attack reward / punishment structures, homework, and parental authority - advocating that "my dad's my best friend," crap in his publishing gig sponsored by Berkley. Meanwhile, he lives in one of the wealthiest, whitest suburbs north of Boston while preaching "Social Progress" for poor, inner-city youth. Having grown up in Greater Boston, his type's a dime and dozen out there. Sure, he's probably got a valid criticism or two about high-stakes standardized testing, but even a broken clock's right twice a day.

This reminds me of the time my Labor Ethics teacher implored us to listen to Michael Moore to achieve some sort of Enlightenment about the evils of competition and business.
Marty Lund - [kaioto at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 1:40:37 pm EDT from 67.128.112.166

Patrick - I have to agree how I hate how athletics has a higher priority than academics, but I hate even more those people who are opposed to increasing the taxes to pay for education just because it's a tax. When you have to build new facilities to accomodate a growing student population, you can't cut enough money from the budget to pay for a new building, but I've known a few people who apparantly think so.

<I see that over on Wikipedia, the contributors are arguing on whether it is a violation of the "neutral point of view" guidelines to label the events of 9/11/2001 a "terrorist attack."> Call me crazy, I don't see that viewpoint. By definition, the events on 9-11 were an attack. I believe by international agreement, attacking innocent civilians is never justified. So eliminates the use of the word 'justifiable" as an adjective. "Preventable" is one of the few words with (semi-)positive connotation that could be used to describe the attack.

Glad to see the backlog emptied, again. I was beginning to think this might be the year of that the ag backlog stayed under control.

Vaevictis Asmadi - <Question: does anybody know if Greg has said where in Japan Ishimura is?> I don't know about Greg Weisman's universe, but in tgs, the location was fixed to be near Sandai Castle, a location in the real world. I do know that GW hasn't fixed the exact location of the Guatamela clan yet.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Sep 10, 2007 1:30:32 pm EDT from 71.29.245.38

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