Demonskrye: That's a very good point, and I fully concede that I don't know for sure what the correct answer is. I imagine that, like most things in this universe, it varies from person to person and clan to clan.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"You're so beautiful when you hate the world." -Zuko, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Sun, Oct 7, 2007 8:24:21 am EDT from 68.58.254.103

More Sex 'n Lex> Though I agree that ultimately the only answer to our questions will have to come from Greg (and with the comic still ongoing I doubt he'll be telling anytime soon), I don't think it's particularly un-gargoyle-like to think that Lex might have some serious reservations about fathering an egg through the normal process. I mean, just look at what we do know. Gargoyles mate for life. As far as we know, they do not have any kind of relations with any other partners before or after they choose their mates. It's apparently rather uncommon for a widowed gargoyle to take another mate. That, to me, indicates a species that links sex and love very closely and puts popualtion growth at a much lower priority. In tha Manhattan clan itself, we already have the example of Goliath and Elisa. No possibility for eggs there, but the clan seems to accept and welcome their relationship without chastizing Goliath for not finding a suitable gargoyle to have eggs with. If Goliath has any qualms about not fathering any more kids, he's keeping them to himself. Personally, I don't see why it would be any different with Lex. Yes, it is not the best course to assume that a gargoyle will always react to a situation the same way a human does. But they do certainly have very human reactions in a lot of cases, and I don't think it's wrong to take what we know and guess at how Lex might feel about his predicament.
Demonskrye
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 9:28:47 pm EDT from 209.6.249.41

If Lex were a sperm donor, I doubt that he would actually have to have sex with a female. The way humans do it (well...the simplest way, anyway) is the male jizzes in a cup, then the semen is sucked up into a pipette/turkey baster type thing. Then, they insert the pipette into the female and then squirt the stuff out, and hope one of those little buggers gets to an egg. Sometimes the semen is frozen and stored, and then used.

So I don't think Lex would have to have sex with anyone.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 8:49:26 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

I don't think it's human thought. I'm just pointing out that Lex is gay, which we all know. Why would anyone assume that he'd find sex with a female as comfortable as with his own mate? Just common sense to me.
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 8:13:04 pm EDT from 209.162.56.40

Vaevictis Asmadi:<I mean, if somebody asked me to have sex with another woman for some reason that would benefit humanity, I'd probably find it uncomfortable or gross, even if I decided to do so anyway, because I'm strait. It wouldn't be an easy decision.>

You do realise that you are adding human thought processes to a gargoyle. This is one of those questions that can only be answered Greg W. anyway.

<The Children of Oberon seem to knock up mortals by shapeshifting. I guess since they can appear in any form you want, some of them find interspecies mating normal and/or fun.>

Not to mention that according to Greg W. they actually it's not actually interspecies mating. Anastasia and Owen are as human as you or I.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
It's silly. It's a silly movie. There just isn't much there. Once you take it all apart, there's not much story, is there?- George Lucas on Spider-Man 3
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 3:37:42 pm EDT from 69.54.209.41

Vicky82> I dare you to say all that 5 times fast. :P
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 3:00:02 pm EDT from 76.247.64.225

This may sound strange, has anyone thought of doing a Gargoyles/Humans/Clones Family Tree(biologically). Theres a bit of a link here and you could put it on Garg Wiki

Start with Hudson his clone Burbank Then Hudsons mate who have Hyppolyta, Broadway and True. Broadway his clone Hollywood Then Broadways future mate Angela who have there 3. Angela Father and Mother Goliath (his Clone Thailog) and Demona. Goliath 2nd future mate Elisa (then add her family) Demona and Elisa clone Delilah who's possibly future mate Malibu who is a clone of Brooklyn (add his family) going back to Demona who married Macbeth who married Gruch who married Gillecomgain who have a son Luach. Phew

It was just a thought anyway
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
myspace.com/sweetandinnocentvicky
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 2:35:01 pm EDT from 195.93.21.4

Just popping in to say I saw the latest episode of Ben 10 this morning, called "Ken 10". It's written by Greg and is one of the best episodes of Ben 10 yet. I love seeing the shades of Gargoyles in there with Greg's fearlessness in shaking things up, adding drama, introducing new characters, and playing with the time line. And according to Wikipedia, this is the last episode before Ben goes back to school, so the creators obviously trust Greg with important episodes. You can see it tomorrow morning on Cartoon Network at 11:30a EST. I wonder if it's his last cartoon work in the pipeline before the Spectacular Spider-man premiere...
Lumpmoose - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 1:28:31 pm EDT from 216.250.163.157

Sorry. Meant to say "If he doesn't want to have sex with a female he has no feelings for, why should he?" Because of course personal feelings/love also matter!
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 11:43:45 am EDT from 209.162.56.40

Jurgan <<I think the response "If he doesn't want to have children of his own, why should he?" is a very human way of thinking.>>

It is rather a question of "If he doesn't want to have sex with a female, why should he?" I mean, if somebody asked me to have sex with another woman for some reason that would benefit humanity, I'd probably find it uncomfortable or gross, even if I decided to do so anyway, because I'm strait. It wouldn't be an easy decision.

Purplegoldfish >> I think it is so rare because they are totally different and unrelated species. If it was more common, I would find it quite bizarre and nonsensical. Fantasy readers are used to matings between species but those tend to involve humans and elves, or something -- ie, the nonhuman is one of those "almost human" fae-type species, sometimes closely related to the human species.
The Children of Oberon seem to knock up mortals by shapeshifting. I guess since they can appear in any form you want, some of them find interspecies mating normal and/or fun.

Rebel >> Oh, good ideas!
Vaevictis Asmadi
"For every complex problem, there is a solution which is simple, easy, and wrong."
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 11:42:08 am EDT from 209.162.56.40

If she's not a "bigger girl" she will probably at least be very "built", like this:
http://www.imaginistix.com/details.cfm?Id=492
or this:
http://www.imaginistix.com/details.cfm?Id=41

Now that I think about it, I'm not terribly concerned about her weight. The fact that she's going to be hairless and a challenge for Goliath may already be pushing the envelope.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 10:26:38 am EDT from 24.227.200.138

Demona's Second> As for his age, the only clue we have is that he fathered an egg that hatched on Avalon. So at youngest he was the same age as Goliath, Demona, Hyppolyta, Othello, Desdemona and Iago. At oldest, he was 40 years older than them. I tend to think he was younger though because he was still an able warrior under Demona's command all the way til 1057. If he was a rookery sibling to the others, he was 119 years old then. If he had been 138 or 158, his ability to fight as well as he did would've been a lot less believeable. So I'd say that the odds were that he was a rookery sibling to the others, which would strengthen the possibility that he was Hyppolyta's mate.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 10:20:31 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

Rebel> I do like your ideas for her, but Greg likes challenging society, and her "name" (which is that of Ares' daughter, queen of the Amazons) will actually never come up.

And I'm thinking she's built more like this than like Broadway anyway: http://www.torrid.com/torrid/store/product.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302024200&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442164151&bmUID=1191677744432

I think putting a larger female with that much spirit in a leadership position would be even better than just having her in the clan; however, I do see your point. It could be that the decision is made to have her be thin anyway. I won't be crying over it if it happens, I'll just shrug and think of it as an opportunity passed up.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 9:41:41 am EDT from 24.98.74.35

Antiyonder> Thanks. I can't wait to see that for myself.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 6:51:48 am EDT from 76.247.64.225

Not the youtube review. It's a typed review, I'll put a link down if I find it.

Also, posted the release date of the comic on the Gargoyles tv.com forum.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo,com]
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 6:34:53 am EDT from 71.115.218.238

Antiyonder> And what review would that be? The infamous Gargoyle dude on YouTube?
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 2:34:16 am EDT from 76.247.64.225

Rebel> WOW. Those are some really awesome ideas. It really would be cool if she became the Leader of the Clan that splits off Wyvern. And having Demona's Second be her mate (and maybe Second in the new Clan) would be really cool too.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Sat, Oct 6, 2007 12:07:24 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

I seriously doubt that Hippolypta (or however you spell it) is going to be hefty, since her name has the word "Hippo" or "Hyppo" in it. You could get away with something like that with a male gargoyle (i.e. BROADway) but I doubt anybody could pull it off with a female. Society is still really sensitive about portrayals of bigger females.

All that aside, I think Greg has huge plans for her as a character when Dark Ages comes along. Some things that Greg has said about her and that little story he wrote about her and Goliath back in the Dark Ages has led me to believe that she *might* be the leader of the group that splits off from the Wyvern clan...after all, Goliath himself acknowledges that she's a great warrior, is not unintelligent, and in the end, Goliath can't even come up with a reason why he was chosen and she wasn't. If we assume that Goliath will be the one appointing the leader of the splinter clan, I wouldn't be surprised if he chose her. It says in the wiki that she probably died during the Wyvern massacre but I'm beginning to think maybe that doesn't happen. I would also love love loooove it if "Demona's second" was her mate (that would just be an awesome "tying up of loose ends) or played some other important role...he might be a little old for her but mates from different rookeries is not unheard of.

Either way, I'm sure Greg has big plans for her otherwise he wouldn't have bothered to create her...
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 11:35:53 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

Purplegoldfish> I didn't mean that she's overweight necessarily, just that she's got a more substantial frame. Truly big-boned, as it were; that leaves room for her to still be curvy without being "skinny."
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 9:59:39 pm EDT from 24.98.74.35

kerry-yeah I read it again, and you're right it doesn't say anything about her build, it just kind of gave the impression that she's very fit.
but honestly, most gargoyles are probably in real good shape anyway, considering how they live day to day. I always thought it kind of strange how overweight broadway is though-he's very active and strong...I guess he just has bad metabolism.

demonskrye: Well said, I agree wholeheartedly.
I think we can almost say for certain that lex's mate won't be human. If there's only one other gargoyle/human pairing within the span of over a thousand years, the chance that lex is half of that pairing is slim to none. I too hope his mate will be a gargoyle. It would be kind of weird seeing him with a child of oberon or something else (new olympian? mutate?). but then again lex is extremely lucky that he will even find a mate at all-it's hard enough for heterosexual gargoyles to find mates!

on a different but related topic- is anyone else surprised that there is only one other human/gargoyle couple in all that time? I mean sure it's rare, but wow. Humans and children of oberon have seemed to shack up quite a lot with each other. (has there ever been gargoyle/oberon's children pairings?) I'm guessing this is mainly due to the gargoyles species as a whole. From what we've seen it appears that the gargoyles mainly keep to themselves and aren't overly friendly with the humans around them-except maybe in ishimura.

I don't know why I"m so talkative tonight ;)
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 9:44:10 pm EDT from 64.148.24.154

Deomonskyre> Oh my... that would definitely be a moment.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 9:35:51 pm EDT from 24.98.74.35

Demonskyre> I'd love to see that moment too. It'd be so poignant, I mean wow. it would really bring to heart how few gargoyles there are left. I wonder what Lex how Lex would choose to answer...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 9:31:48 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Purplegoldfish> Yeah, her build is the only thing that isn't really talked about in that blurb. I'd be happier if she was heavy, since it'd show that female gargs can be, and it sounds like if she is, she definitely knows how to throw her weight around to good effect. Though I'd understand if she was slender like all the other ladies we've seen, since there's a lot of pressure in visual media to portray attractive females to attract male viewers/readers.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 9:16:15 pm EDT from 24.98.74.35

Lex's Personal Issues> I think Incisivis makes some good points. If gargoyles as a species put a high value on keeping up their populations, then the cultural empahsis on mating for life wouldn't be there. Eben though the numbers of the species were strong back in the tenth century, the mortality rate was apparently rather high. And even as clans have been completely destroyed or all but wiped out, we have no indication that the remaining clans have abandoned this idea. Similarly, if gargoyles in the past were at least tolerant of homosexual couples in the clan (I believe Greg said that they were "tolreated, but not celebrated"), that means they dealt with the fact that they'd have roughly two less eggs than they would otherwise.

That being said, I still wouldn't be too surprised if Lex felt pressure from gargoyles outside of the Manhattan clan or frm himself to help repopulate the species. With their leader being very much in love with a human woman and no possibility of eggs there, I doubt Lex's own clan would give him too much grief about his duty to father children. But there are a lot of other gargoyles out there and some who might only know Lex through his situation may feel that he should be doing something to help what currently may look like a dying race. And I'm also certain the argument will cross Lex's mind at some point or other as well.

I've also though about the issue of Lex's limited options before. Though I will go along with whatever happens, I'm actually rather against Lex finding a mate outside of his species. It's not that I have anything against interspecies relationships as far as "Gargoyles" goes. (I'd be a pretty odd fan if I had issues with the central rommance of the series.) But for one thing, Greg has said that human/gargoyle pairings are very rare and will remain so, because he wants Elisa and Goliath to be something unique and special. Even if Lex's mate isn't human, I feel it still takes something away from that if he's not a gargoyle. The other reason I'm against it is that it seems to play into that "slippery slope" argument that says that if we allow homosexual people to marry, before we know it we'll be marrying our cats, our toasters, our domain names, etc. It's like ":ex is already gay, so how much of a stretch is it that he'd pick an alien for his mate?" In my mind, that's a pretty big stretch. It just seems like it would take away from the fact that Lex is gay and just make him half of interspecies couple number 2.

But yeah, I definitely see the issue of Lex's limited options on the gargoyle front and how that might affect his choices. It would certainly be interesting to see Lex meet another gay gargoyle and just not feel the spark. But at the very least, I would like to have a point where one or the other of them says "Are we together because we love each other or are we together because we're afraid we'll never find anyone else?"
Demonskrye
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 9:11:38 pm EDT from 209.6.249.41

Kerry- from Greg's little "Hippolyta" blurb, it doesn't sound like she's heavyset-but she is hairless

yeah this show has its stereotypes, but it's not nearly as bad as most shows. Though I don't think Ophelia is particularly attractive, with that huge dinosaur crest on her head.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 9:04:27 pm EDT from 64.148.24.154

"Okay, thats where I start getting annoyed. Why do people always assume if they know two gay people (or characters or whatever) that they should date or whatnot."

I can see how that's annoying, but I don't think that's exactly what was meant. I think it was more: "Let's say Lex's mate is a currently known character. Who among them might also be gay, and therefore eligible?" But, yeah, I can see why that bothers you.

"As for Lexington, I think all of you saying "he should just donate sperm/knock up a lesbian gargoyle/etc are thinking too much like humans. These are gargoyles. Lex will find his mate one day, thats all well and good. And presumably, Lex will remain a member of the Manhattan Clan for the rest of his life. And presumably, for the rest of Lex's life every rookery generation will have at least a couple hatchlings. Why would he "feel the need to have his own child"? Thats not a gargoyle need."

On the contrary, I'd say you're the one thinking like a human (isn't it funny how we all accuse each other of that?). The way I see it, raising gargoyle young is done by the whole clan, not individually. Therefore, wouldn't baring children also be seen in context of the clan? I wasn't saying "Lex will feel the need to have children of his own." Rather, I was saying that, since for gargoyles the biological parents don't matter, it shouldn't make much difference whether Lex is a biological parent or not. So, all things being equal, why not lend a hand? I think the response "If he doesn't want to have children of his own, why should he?" is a very human way of thinking. It's not about "his children," it's about the clan. I doubt they would force him, but since it would only be once (or three times in a life) anyway, there's no real problem with it. And since it's a relatively minor thing, I wonder if there might not be some societal pressure. On the other hand, even if there is no such pressure or biological drive, Lex, being an intellectual, might think that it's the best thing to do even if it seems unnatural.

"The way some of you are talking, saying "maybe love isn't involved", I'm beginning to wonder why gargoyles even mate with their mates. If the whole breeding cycle is all about procreation, than everyone should just be doing it with everyone, one big gargoyle orgy. And yet biologically, Gabriel's parents are in love, Angela's parents were in love, and Artus' parents will be in love when they are conceived. I think love plays an extremly important role, and I think taking that emotional attachment out of the equation is actually CONTRARY to the survival of the species.
I have no doubt, and Greg has said that in most clans there probably is pressure to find a mate, but not just to make more gargoyles, and not at the cost of love."

Okay, that's a good point. My response, I suppose, would be that a couple who have already declared themselves lifelong mates would have no reason to mate with anyone else. But you make a good point, and I don't know whether they find it necessary for the parents to be a mated couple. I can't really see why they would, though, since the biological parents make no difference. I imagine there have been cases of unmated gargoyles, during the mating season, being overtaken by passion and having one-night stands that lead to pregnancies (there are very few things that absolutely never or always happen in the Gargverse). If a child were somehow identified as being from unmated parents, do you think (s)he would be treated any differently? I can't imagine that (s)he would.

This is an interesting topic to me. I think I'll ask Greg about it once question submission is reactivated. But, just to be absolutely clear, this is all a hypothetical, not me trying to push any sort of anti-gay agenda. And I don't think I'm "thinking like a human-" I'm trying to get a sense of how gargoyles would/will act in this rather desperate situation.

Lot of sex talk this week...
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"You're so beautiful when you hate the world." -Zuko, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 9:04:13 pm EDT from 68.58.254.103

Why is this such a huge deal? It was just a thought, a speculation-something to discuss. Isn't that what this room is for? I didn't see anybody here saying that the needs of the species should trump the love bond or one's own personal morals and beliefs.

If, for some reason, at some point Lex is asked if he would donate sperm, and he and his mate agree, then fine. If they don't agree, that's fine too. We're not talking about enforcement, but free will. No one is forcing anyone to do anything-and if they are forced, that's completely wrong, regardless if it's for the good of the species.

I don't see why people are getting all bent out of shape about this. I remember reading a fanfiction by madame destine where goliath and lex were forced by the gargoyle council to knock up two gargoyles from another clan-but the clans compromised so that every male gargoyle in the clan donated sperm and it was all mixed together and given to the female gargs. Pretty good story.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 9:01:03 pm EDT from 64.148.24.154

Rebel> I'd like to think that Hudson's daughter was heavyset, but there won't be any way of knowing till Dark Ages comes out.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 8:53:59 pm EDT from 24.98.74.35

Incisivis> Yeah, most things having to do with Disney have that in common. I guess it's easier giving everybody a happy ending (except for parent characters, it seems) and keeping couples together, even if the source material doesn't (original Little Mermaid = tragedy, though most people do like the Disney version better).

I'm pleased that there have been at least a few issues in that area: Goliath and Demona's relationship issues, Elisa's resistance, Angela not pairing off immediately and when she does, *not* with Brooklyn (who has his own relationship issues). Too many other "hero" shows are a group of one gender with only one member of the other, who is with the leader or second.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 8:47:36 pm EDT from 24.98.74.35

The issue of "should Lex donate" isn't an easy one to solve. I can't chose a side, either, since the idea of limiting individual freedom in such a personal area is a squick to me. But I also see the merit in adding more gargoyles to the race, and the fact that a lot of personal issues would be eliminated by gargoyles tending not to place importance on biological kinship.

But as far as the cartoon goes, Gargoyles tends to present a slightly utopian view of mating and dating: they mate early in life and usually *for* life, and I think Greg said that if one pair member dies, the other one usually doesn't find another, even if it removes them from the gene pool, not to mention gargoyles are said to be accepting of homosexuality. That doesn't seem like a group that would put Lexington under such pressure.

And because Greg said that gargoyles can mate for pleasure out of season, it might be fair to assume that mating during the fertile season doesn't become some kind of crazy frenzy.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 7:37:33 pm EDT from 216.36.154.204

Matt > Clearly, I know that in real life two gay men won't immediately start dating just because they're both gay. I have plenty of gay friends, so I understand this very well. This is, however, FICTION. More than likely, there will only be ONE other gay character in the whole series besides Lex, and that will be his mate. If this were real life, it's quite possible that many more characters could be gay. But in a fictional world, adding additional gay characters without some purpose in mind in regards to their homosexuality would be superfluous, at least from the creator's point of view. Is this fair or realistic? No, it isn't. But then again, neither is having ALL of the female gargoyles so far (except the old ones) be absolutely gorgeous, thin, and very human-like, whereas the males can run the gamut. Fiction isn't fair. But that's the nature of the beast.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 6:37:25 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

>>Why would he "feel the need to have his own child"? Thats not a gargoyle need.

I don't think anyone said that. o.O

I think people were talking in more of a scientific need than a paternal one if that's what was being said.
Aldrius
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 6:01:23 pm EDT from 207.112.67.84

Rebel> "But that was just wide speculation about who, among existing characters, might also be gay and end up with Lex."
Okay, thats where I start getting annoyed. Why do people always assume if they know two gay people (or characters or whatever) that they should date or whatnot. If Owen or Alex or Brentwood was gay... so what? It's like you don't even bother to think of compatibilty beyond that one single characteristic. Elisa is straight so she'll probably end up with Judge Roebling, Yama, Macbeth or Jackal because they are also (presumably) straight. Just because a character is gay doesn't make him a potential mate for Lex. Theres more to it than just both being gay, trust me.

Mating season> The way some of you are talking, saying "maybe love isn't involved", I'm beginning to wonder why gargoyles even mate with their mates. If the whole breeding cycle is all about procreation, than everyone should just be doing it with everyone, one big gargoyle orgy. And yet biologically, Gabriel's parents are in love, Angela's parents were in love, and Artus' parents will be in love when they are conceived. I think love plays an extremly important role, and I think taking that emotional attachment out of the equation is actually CONTRARY to the survival of the species.
I have no doubt, and Greg has said that in most clans there probably is pressure to find a mate, but not just to make more gargoyles, and not at the cost of love.

As for Lexington, I think all of you saying "he should just donate sperm/knock up a lesbian gargoyle/etc are thinking too much like humans. These are gargoyles. Lex will find his mate one day, thats all well and good. And presumably, Lex will remain a member of the Manhattan Clan for the rest of his life. And presumably, for the rest of Lex's life every rookery generation will have at least a couple hatchlings. Why would he "feel the need to have his own child"? Thats not a gargoyle need. And if he chooses to be, he'll be a rookery father to the hatchlings whether one is his biological child or not. Lex will contribute to the good of the species by helping to raise the younger generations. He'll help love them and nuture them and support them. That is what a true father does, whether or not his sperm was involved in their creation or not.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 5:41:39 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Rebel: Ah, okay. That actually wasn't directed at you. I do remember seeing that question in the ASK GREG queue once, I think it was earlier this year (can't recall exactly when, just that I saw it).
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I never opened for Springsteen or slept with Barbara Feldon. You can live without dreams, but without lungs..." -House, MD
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 4:53:06 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

I thought Caveman was pretty good for its first episode. I'll give a few episodes before I write it off like I did "Reaper". That show is done after a season.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
"Keep your penis in your genus."
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 4:20:26 pm EDT from 159.240.11.254

Brigadoon Traveller - <The first issue of Bad Guys will be pushed back a month, but that is not because of the release of Gargoyles #6 in October. There have been delays in getting the art, unfortunately.> I wish they would change the release schedule page to reflect that. Oh well. At least we're getting issue #6 next week. <Now this prompts the question will Garg #7 be pushed back a month or is that gonna still be on schedule? I'd prefer it if they did push it back just so that we can still have each alternate comic every month.> I just hope that any such problems will be resolved by the end of the year.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 4:19:50 pm EDT from 75.88.22.53

Harvester of Eyes > I wasn't aware there WAS a "Lex/Alex thing" when I made that comment. I haven't read anyone, anywhere else saying that Lex and Alex might end up together. Frankly, I think it would be more than a little weird. I only mentioned that because I was brainstorming all the possible characters already in the series who *MIGHT* be gay and *MIGHT* (big, big "might") end up with Lex. I wasn't saying any of those matches were desirable or even plausible...it was entirely speculation and guesswork. Honestly the only character *currently* in the series that I would even think it *might* be plausible for Lex to end up with would be Puck...since he always seemed sorta gay to me, and plus both Lex and Puck feel a certain affection for Alex. Despite all that, Puck and Lex would be an odd combination (even though they're the least odd of all of them).

But none of this matters anyway since Lex's mate is going to be a new character.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 4:03:07 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

Just bought Gargoyles issue 6 from Midtowncomics.
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
myspace.com/sweetandinnocentvicky
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 4:02:52 pm EDT from 195.93.21.4

Antiyonder> It was hinted at the con that Brentwood shares Lex's orientation and may have a bit of a crush on Thailog. I don't know if this is anything more substantial than that or not. Anybody have more concrete information?
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 3:29:38 pm EDT from 199.38.51.134

Rebel> Keep in mind that Lex's genetic material has been taken and used without his knowledge or permission. Not saying he'd be adamant in his position, but that may make him much more leery of babies-through-science.

That said, there may be circumstances under which he'd donate his sperm. I was thinking originally that if there was a single female (or even a mated lesbian couple) that he knew that wanted a baby, he might do so out of compassion. This would require the female(s) in question to have a rather atypical (for a gargoyle) view of the importance of biological children, but such a thing is not entirely out of the question. There may be others, but it'd definitely be a very personal choice on Lex's part either way, and even with the best of persuasion, he might still say no.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 3:26:39 pm EDT from 199.38.51.134

While his mate won't be Brentwood, would a clone (specifically Brentwood) has the same sexuality as the original? It certainly would explain his choice to go with Thailog (I can't be the only one to remember that review on issue 5).
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 3:21:06 pm EDT from 71.115.192.199

Out of curiosity, where did the whole Lex/Alex thing stem from in the first place? If it's one of those cockamamie theories that seemed to grow from what we saw in "The Journey," I probably shouldn't be surprised. Based upon some comments I've read at work about that new dumbass Cavemen sitcom, I really should stop underestimating people.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I never opened for Springsteen or slept with Barbara Feldon. You can live without dreams, but without lungs..." -House, MD
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 3:17:16 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

I got another email form SLG the other day, this time from Jennifer De Guzman, the Editor-in-Chief.

"I'm sorry for the wait for the reply. I was waiting until the situation became more clear. It looks like Gargoyles #6 will be in stores the second week of October. Unfortunately, we did not receive approval for Disney in time for it to be released in September.

The first issue of Bad Guys will be pushed back a month, but that is not because of the release of Gargoyles #6 in October. There have been delays in getting the art, unfortunately."

Now this prompts the question will Garg #7 be pushed back a month or is that gonna still be on schedule? I'd prefer it if they did push it back just so that we can still have each alternate comic every month.

Any news on a cover for #6?
Brigadoon Traveller
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 2:59:54 pm EDT from 194.82.51.28

Off topic, for the love, #6 comes out in 5 days!! Why haven't we seen the cover yet?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Whenever you set out to do something, something else must be done first.
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 2:54:51 pm EDT from 159.240.11.254

I don't get why everyone is making such a big deal about Lex donating his sperm or genetic material...I mean, maybe I'm thinking too much like a human, but I don't see that as being that big of a deal. Raping a female garg for the "good of the species" would definitely be going WAY out of line, but just asking a male to donate sperm?? That's nothing. Human men do that all the time and it doesn't seem to bother them in the least.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 2:42:53 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

I'm sorry, but the argument that "the good of the species" should trump the concepts of love and the individual really strikes me as a heavy-handed and naively HUMAN approach

Jurgan never said anything of the sort and I certainly didn't either. It was just an idea thrown out and I think it's a valid one. NO one is saying that a gargoyle should be forced to give up their love or freedom for the good of the kind. But if certain individuals who are mateless or gay (or both) is willing or even wants to do it, and they have the means to, I don't see what the problem is. And how can we presume to know what every gargoyle thinks of the subject? In any case I don't know why people keep bringing up zoos-the eggs would be part of the clans.

as for lex and brent getting together...that's just wrong. It would be more likely that he would get together with any of the other male clones, though I can't see that happening either.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 2:30:35 pm EDT from 64.148.24.154

LT> Exactly. Greg did put "she" in quotes, after all (and it was the pronoun the questioner used), thus revealing absolutely nothing about Lex's mate.

I'm hoping that Lex's mate is (or at least used to be, if a cyborg) a gargoyle, or at least a half-garg New Olympian. Interspecial relationships being rare and all, I'm not sure I'd feel right about having more than one involving core characters like that. But of course I'm not on the production team, so if Greg has a better idea, I'll live with it. LOL
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 2:27:17 pm EDT from 199.38.51.134

Yes, I think Greg was just being his usual "I'm not telling!" self. Because how do you mate with something that is "ageless" and therefore outside of time?

I think Demon@ was right before when she said how serious a thing it would be to ask this from Lex. Not as serious as raping Demona, but still not a easy, snap decision like Jurgan suggests. Gargoyles may raise their children communally, but they don't own their bodies communally, and considering that they are sentient and have similar feelings to humans, they can probably have as much emotional investment in sex as humans can. I can't imagine it being a simple mechanical act "for the good of the species" even though it would benefit the species. It would have to be a difficult and personal decision. Not an automatically bad or impossible decision, but not a simple one either.

Which doesn't mean that some gargoyles might not ask it of him, with perhaps that same attitude toward increasing the number of gargoyles, without any real understanding for how much they were asking.

And I'm just glad to hear that Greg said it would be a new character. I do not want the image of any of those "matches" listed below. Ick. o.0
Vaevictis Asmadi
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 2:26:22 pm EDT from 138.192.30.168

"The only thing in the archives is Greg's response that "she" is ageless, nameless, speciesless, clanless, etc (which I think is just Greg being difficult)."

Thought occurs to me that "she" doesn't exist. I mean a chick who's ageless, nameless, etc., might also be existenceless... cuz Lex's mate is male...?

Since I'm posting occasionally. Thought I'd try a color and avatar.
L.T. Williams
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 2:08:50 pm EDT from 71.93.81.240

Rebel> "Chances are, Lex's mate will be a new character."

He is. Greg definitely said that Lex's mate will be someone we haven't met yet.

Tony> "Sorry to disappoint you that I didn't link to fan art."

It's fine.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 12:38:48 pm EDT from 76.247.64.225

TTT: Oh it was taking as joke allright.
Patrick: Exactly my point. Maybe gargoyles dont even think at the moment the mating at the breeders moon as something related to love. There are many fincs that show them acting purely by instinct. And it may be. They may not see the mating of that night as a shown of love to their mates but as a simple act to achieve a goal, like the gliding. Gliding with the clan or a brother/sister is one thing, but we have seen that gliding with one`s mate is something more private or some sort of intimate sharing.
Following these, having sex to breed, say a gay gargoyle or a mateless one in that night woudnt be considered the way its considered and it would be like hunting with a partner.
Demon@
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 9:49:12 am EDT from 190.16.199.84

KingCobra_582> Kerry (Kth) Boyd said "The only thing in the archives is Greg's response that "she" is ageless, nameless, speciesless, clanless, etc (which I think is just Greg being difficult)."

The only thing that I know of that is ageless, speciesless, and clanless is a lone robot. When Johnny Five was created, he wasn't given a name, only a number to identify it so it was born nameless. So Johnny Five fits Greg's description from a certain point of view. Sorry to disappoint you that I didn't link to fan art. The link was obviously meant as a joke.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Whenever you set out to do something, something else must be done first.
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 9:33:13 am EDT from 159.240.11.254

Matt > Yes, I realize such pairings are quite unlikely, and at least a little weird. But that was just wide speculation about who, among existing characters, might also be gay and end up with Lex.

Chances are, Lex's mate will be a new character. The fact that Greg has said that Coldstone will be the person so far in the series that Lex would be most attracted to, suggests to me that his mate could very well be a robot or cyborg...which is also weird. Then again, Lex does LOVE technology...
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 9:00:37 am EDT from 24.227.200.138

Lex/Brent? I have two words for that...

"Thailog smaaaaart!" ;P
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 8:54:20 am EDT from 199.38.51.134

I don't see any gay-bashing going on here... but I also find this whole thing weird.

Esspecially the whole Lex/Alex Lex/Brentwood ideas... I can think of hundreds of reasons why both of those are just bizarre and unrealistic. Count me in as another person who thinks Lex's mate is a gargoyle, but not Brentwood. For one thing, look at how Lex treats Brent! Plus the envelope is already gonna be pushed with the homosexuality thing, no need to throw incest into the mix.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 7:34:07 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

I'm sorry, but the argument that "the good of the species" should trump the concepts of love and the individual really strikes me as a heavy-handed and naively HUMAN approach. How about just putting all gargoyles in zoos, and breeding them in captivity like condors or pandas? Females like Angela could be shipped from one country to the next, while scientists watch and speculate as to why they're not taking to the various males that have been lined up to breed her.

266 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Wow... my subconscious is a genius!" - Homer Simpson
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 6:59:11 am EDT from 76.205.97.110

I wasn't implying that you were or are. Just something I figured I'd put my few cents on since it related somewhat to the topic. Would like to know if my point is valid though.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 6:34:06 am EDT from 71.115.192.199

I hope no one thinks I'm gay-bashing. I have no problem with gay rights, and I'm not saying that, in reality, all people must have children. I'm talking about a fictional species in a fictional TV show.

Good point, Purplegoldfish, about the need for more communication between clans. Most of the current crop of the Manhattan clan will have mates within the next year, though.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"You're so beautiful when you hate the world." -Zuko, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 5:48:28 am EDT from 68.58.254.103

I see no gay bashing going on here 0_o

I see jurgan's point though. I see no harm in gargs being artificially inseminated to bring more eggs into their clans, after all, they can only conceive three times in their lives and there's not a whole lot of gargoyles left.

It's probably unlikely that it would happen that often though. I get the impressin that most gargoyles are heterosexuals. but then there's the question of how are donors/receivers getting together? They would most likely have to seek out members of other clans and currently communication between clans is not great (I did like that idea of a gargoyle council from TGS) and also, most of the clans probably don't have that technology.

and then there's individuals. Maybe some mateless or gay gargoyles wouldn't mind donating their bodies for the good of the species, but maybe some would. I tend to think most gargoyles would do it if they could-by the way they seem to put clan before anything else. If they're confident in their place in the clan and their mades concede, why not?

I can see elisa having a problem with goliath donating though, since humans and garogyles think differently. I"m not really sure what lex's opinion would be on it.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 3:55:59 am EDT from 64.148.24.154

Tony> Real funny, that. Haha. You actually had me expecting to see some fanart.

Greg B.> "Are you sure Greg wasn't just being coy, and you took it way too literally? Greg has revealed so much, that he is most likely being as vague as he possibly can. I, myself, am pretty sure that Lex's mate is a gargoyle."

I guess we'll find out for ourselves if and when the comic gets to that. I'm kind of curious as to his identity/species myself.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 2:39:27 am EDT from 76.247.64.225

I've always found incapability of offspring to be a flimsy reason for gaybashing. I mean you have many straight couples who never try to make a child, so why not chase them with torches and pitchforks.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 1:15:28 am EDT from 71.115.192.199

This goes against what I've said in the past, but I really hope Lex's mate is just a gargoyle. Gargoyle/Human relations already work as an allegory to homosexual relationships in a way... and giving Lex and his mate that extra hurdle just makes the relationship less... organic. In a way.
Aldrius
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 12:38:55 am EDT from 207.112.78.36

I had promised Greg I would keep these, but I cant stand it anymore. Guys, Lexington`s mate is Bronx He has been for the first episode. I mean, look at how they react when they awoke in Manhatan!
Demon@
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 12:06:25 am EDT from 190.16.199.84

About the mating deal we have seen enough of gargoyle`s culture to see that they have gone over these kind of things we humans seem to be unable to understand or achieve. They know that its more important to live with honor and to be firm to the truth and believes of others (without going to extremes, of course) In real life we have lost any sort of achievement related to sexual tolerance in the Middle Age. Then, been gay was considered a sin for the simple fact that there were many plagues that decreased the population. There were hundreds of war that distroyed the population and was constantly demanding for soldiers Therefor, a men or a women that woudnt produce offspring would not help human society to replace the ones that were dying and were needed for one reason or another (Im not trying to get into a hot topic by saying these, Its what I think, and from my point of view I can be wrong but so can be the one that thinks is for a more religious fact So lets avoid a innecesary fight)
Gargoyles seem to be creatures (at least most of the clans we have seen) of extreme tolerance and respect for customs, for more spiritual achievments rather than physicall progress (such as reproduction to be more in number) It would be like sayin "yeah Demona is a killer, but hell she is female so lets rape her so she can produce babies" or "heck we are free but they are killing us, so lets get into a zoo. Yeah we will be locked up, but we will be safe" and so on so on.
Demon@
posted @ Fri, Oct 5, 2007 12:00:06 am EDT from 190.16.199.84

"Jurgan> I tend to doubt it. It's kinda offensive. It's like saying "we know Goliath ends up with Elisa, but if theres a female gargoyle laying around at conception time, do you think he'd knock her up for the good of the species?"
I think there is some pressure in gargoyle society to choose a mate and produce offspring, but I doubt think it's realistic to think an individual or clan would want someone to mate with someone else just because there is no other way to reproduce."

Maybe, but maybe not. Presumably, there are also lesbian gargoyles, and they won't be "mating" in a way that produces children. However, they may be willing to carry the egg of male gargoyles they don't love in order to increase the population.

"Has anyone considered whether Elton John will have biological children? I know he doesn't have a wife, and I don't think his fans would want him forced to live a lie, but if there was an ovulating woman around after a concert, do you think Elton might volunteer to be a sperm donor for the good of the Dwight family name? It seems like a reasonable thing to do.

/sarcasm"

Oh, for the love of... Sheesh, Patrick, can't a guy make a suggestion without people being rude about it? Anyway, that's a terrible analogy because Elton John is a member of a species with over six billion people in it. We need fewer humans, not more. Gargoyles, on the other hand, are on the verge of extinction, and I don't think a family name disappearing carries the same weight as an entire species vanishing from the face of the Earth. Considering how desperately the gargoyle species needs new members, I'd say it'd even be rather selfish if a gargoyle refused to make a relatively small physical sacrifice. Well, relatively small for the males- the females would be placed under a good bit more stress, but still, why would they refuse to do it? Why not carry an egg and be a surrogate mother for six months if it helps ensure the survival of the species? It's not like it not being someone they loved would even make much difference, as the eggs belong to the whole clan. There's no strong bond between biological parent and child. And if they're going to be part of the community that raises the whole clan's children anyway, why not contribute biologically as well? I can't see any reason for them not to participate as surrogates.

"If you mean literally to donate his sperm... it's inside the realm of possibility, if he has a really good reason to do so and a female willing to be an artificial insemination subject."

That's what I was thinking. Maybe Dr. Sato can help with the process.

"Not probable, but possible. I mean, gargoyles don't have the need to have their own biological children like a lot of humans do, so both Lex and the female would probably take a lot more convincing than is worth it."

Seems to me that "do this and you'll help save your species" is a pretty strong reason. I'm not saying they'd want to give birth because they feel some urge to have children; of course, biology is irrelevant when gargoyles talk about having children. I'm just saying they might say "it doesn't much matter, so why not pitch in and do my part to help restore the gargoyles?"

"KC, you do realize that gargoyles age their hatchling communally, right? Lex will have a son, Artus. He'll be as much a father to him as Broadway and Brooklyn."

Are you sure? That's what I thought at first, but then I seem to recall Greg saying that Lex would be more like a "rookery uncle," or some such. I can't imagine why that would be, but I remember reading something along those lines.

"I thought I heard that Lex's mate was possibly a human. I'm certain I heard this somewhere. *POSSIBLY* a Human. Maybe Greg said 'who said it was a gargoyle?' or something like that. Or 'Don't rule out the posibility of it being human.'"

If you heard that from Greg, I'm sure he was just being evasive. Greg has also said that he considers Elisa and Goliath to be a "thermodynamic miracle." He said that, in the entire Gargoyles timeline he has, going back thousands of years and forward to around 2198, he only knows of one other gargoyle/human mating. So I feel certain that Lex's mate is not a human. Child of Oberon is slightly more likely, since they're shape-shifters, but it takes more than physical form to have a lifelong relationship. Now, sex- I imagine Oberon's Children do get around. Look at myths of Zeus and other amoral gods with their legions of half-human offspring. There are probably half-gargoyle, half-Third Race beings around as well- maybe among the New Olympians (the majority of whom, if I'm not mistaken, are half-Third Race/half-human).

"And I just thought about this...if Lex is interested in having his own biological children, clearly the talents of Anton Sevarius could be put to use...there'd be no need to be a "sperm donor", just combine Lex's DNA with someone else's, except don't age it up to adulthood...leave it as an infant."

Well, not Sevarius personally- he's probably the least-trustworthy character in the gargverse- but otherwise, good point. That's basically what sperm donation is, though. The only question is whether you raise the egg to viability in a test tube or in a female's womb. At that point, it really doesn't matter. The problem is that females only ovulate every twenty years. You're talking about oddly splicing DNA to grow babies artificially, which may or may not work. I fear that such children would be less likely to be viable than those created through the combination of sperm and egg, which are already designed to create offspring. I suppose they could simply clone a bunch of gargoyles, but I really do think that'd be less appealing to everyone involved. Maybe not, but I think that's toward a last resort. I think a gay gargoyle donating sperm to a lesbian gargoyle who agrees to serve as a surrogate for half a year is a lot more likely.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"You're so beautiful when you hate the world." -Zuko, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 11:27:18 pm EDT from 68.58.254.103

What I'm wondering is, is it gonna be a new character or someone we've already seen in the series?

If it's someone already in the series, who are some people that you think it could possibly be? I'm leaning towards:
-Puck/Owen
-Alex (about 30 years down the road, Alex would be 30 and Lex would be about 69, but about 35 biologically)
-Brentwood (if Lex is gay, why not Brentwood?)


Also, what about future characters? Maybe Nashville will turn out to be gay. Boy that would be weird. There would be an age gap, but it wouldn't be an enormous one (probably around 20 years but only around 10 years in gargoyle age).

Anyway I'm just speculating. Throw out your speculations, if you care to make them.

And I just thought about this...if Lex is interested in having his own biological children, clearly the talents of Anton Sevarius could be put to use...there'd be no need to be a "sperm donor", just combine Lex's DNA with someone else's, except don't age it up to adulthood...leave it as an infant.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 10:50:08 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

I thought I heard that Lex's mate was possibly a human. I'm certain I heard this somewhere. *POSSIBLY* a Human. Maybe Greg said "who said it was a gargoyle?" or something like that. Or "Don't rule out the posibility of it being human."

I dunno. But I'm sure a I heard this before, too.
Battle Beast - [wlukinuk at telus dot net]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 10:02:13 pm EDT from 142.59.132.201

Cobra> Are you sure Greg wasn't just being coy, and you took it way too literally? Greg has revealed so much, that he is most likely being as vague as he possibly can. I, myself, am pretty sure that Lex's mate is a gargoyle.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 6:07:22 pm EDT from 63.201.122.162

Lex's mate: Is it a gargoyle? Is it a human? Is it a child of Oberon?

IT'S PAT!
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I could bore you with a philosophical tirard on freedom and tyranny, or try and explain to you what new horizons are suddenly open to me, but I doubt you would understand, and if you did it might frighten you. That amuses me." -Durandal
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 5:37:04 pm EDT from 71.62.204.109

Click on my name for an exclusive look at Lex's future boyfriend.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Whenever you set out to do something, something else must be done first.
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 4:36:24 pm EDT from 159.240.11.254

Rebel> Yeah, I'd love to see beaked females and characters of any gender with Lex's wings. I've gotten two responses from our Greg B. on that: that Greg Weisman has said that features aren't resetricted by sex, but also that Greg Guler was drawing what he thought was "sexy". Neither of these are official "on the record" comments, though, just were brought up in conversation.

It seems biologically sound to assume that the gargoyle genders have features of equal diversity, and the clans depicted have just not "happened" to show that because less female characters are present, and more gargoyles have humanlike faces than anything else.

But you can't discount the real-life human double standards of beauty and what's appropriate for female vs. male characters' appearance, which probably means we're not going to see humanoid, non-London females with beaks and snouts in canon.

Fortunately fanart has picked up that slack somewhat, and I've been making a collection of found pictures of beaked female fan characters just for the hell of it, as well as designing my own, just also for the hell of it.

By the way, Scott, the character you might be referring to is screencapped here: http://lynativerse.artchicks.org/Screencaps/Gi_Clan.htm , nicknamed "Meiyo" by the person who runs the site. I think it looks like a beaked female, but of course that might be wishful thinking. :P I tried to make a more refined drawing of "her" a while ago, too.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 3:43:03 pm EDT from 142.13.23.70

KingCobra> Oh, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 3:31:51 pm EDT from 199.38.51.134

Kerry Boyd> " I think that gargoyle would feel the same as well."

I just meant it was beside the point in that you assumed Lex's mate was a Gargoyle and that won't be the case. I'm beginning to think maybe I should've kept my mouth shut.

Demon@> I dunno what species he'll be. Alien, maybe? Cyborg?
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 3:21:49 pm EDT from 76.247.64.225

KingCobra> *blink* How is it beside the point? You did say "their own," which tends to indicate biological children, which Lex wouldn't feel the need to have. Did you mean something else?

The closest thing I can remember from the con would be Greg's response that, out of the characters that we know of, Coldstone would be the one Lex is most attracted to. The only thing in the archives is Greg's response that "she" is ageless, nameless, speciesless, clanless, etc (which I think is just Greg being difficult).
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 3:15:57 pm EDT from 199.38.51.134

Ups, that was me :)
Demon@
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 2:56:00 pm EDT from 190.2.34.69

And what the heck is it?
Anonymous
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 2:55:17 pm EDT from 190.2.34.69

Greg B.> I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere in the AG archives.

Or I heard it from Greg himself at the con. I don't remember which.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 2:35:50 pm EDT from 76.247.64.225

KC> "This is beside the point, and not to sound like a jerk, but Lex's mate isn't a Gargoyle. Nor is it a human or child of Oberon."

Where did you hear that? Link?
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 2:33:16 pm EDT from 63.201.122.162

Rebel > Don't take my word for this, but I think there was a beaked female gargoyle among the Ishimura Clan.
Scott Iskow - [smiskow at lycos dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 2:29:36 pm EDT from 207.226.255.67

Greg B.> "KC, you do realize that gargoyles age their hatchling communally, right? Lex will have a son, Artus. He'll be as much a father to him as Broadway and Brooklyn."

Yeah, I know. I was just speaking hypothetically, if Lex just wanted to contribute.

Kerry Boyd> This is beside the point, and not to sound like a jerk, but Lex's mate isn't a Gargoyle. Nor is it a human or child of Oberon.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 2:22:06 pm EDT from 76.247.64.225

KingCobra> From the archive: "Lex probably wants kids some day, but he's a gargoyle and biological offspring are of little significance relative to clan offspring. You're thinking like a human."

Thus, he'd want his clan to have children and be able to care for them, but having some that are biologically his doesn't stir the same feelings in him. And unless his future mate is someone who wasn't brought up with the communal parenting idea as the ideal, I think that gargoyle would feel the same as well.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 2:10:11 pm EDT from 199.38.51.134

<<Lex as a Sperm Donor> I could kind of see it happening, if he and his mate wanted their own hatchling.>>

KC, you do realize that gargoyles age their hatchling communally, right? Lex will have a son, Artus. He'll be as much a father to him as Broadway and Brooklyn.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 2:04:27 pm EDT from 63.201.122.162

Todd >> Yay for tengu! I too am happy to hear he used the word. Don't know why it makes me happy, but whatever.

Matt >> I think they get around because of artistic license.

Rebel >> I think it is simply because we have seen relatively few female gargoyle characters on the show. All of Demona's clan, all but one of the Manhattan Clan, all but one of the models used in the Wyvern Clan, the majority of those used for the Ishimura and Avalon clans, were male gargs.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 2:03:19 pm EDT from 70.59.84.28

Kids WB> Makes me wonder where Spiderman will end up as a result.

Lex as a Sperm Donor> I could kind of see it happening, if he and his mate wanted their own hatchling.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 1:57:59 pm EDT from 76.247.64.225

Jurgan> I doubt it, but I've been donating my sperm for the good of the human race. ;)
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Whenever you set out to do something, something else must be done first.
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 1:40:14 pm EDT from 159.240.11.254

Will be sad to see Kids WB go. With such a rich heritage you think someone would have the vision to keep it going. This demonstrates poor decsion making that rivals the WB animation studios shutting down the first time in the early 60s.
Wingless
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 12:46:33 pm EDT from 74.115.187.62

I'd like to see Lex be a sperm donor...I've always liked Lexington's unique design, and I'd love to see more characters like that.

By the way, does anyone know why there is so much more variation in male gargoyles than female gargoyles? I mean think about it. In male gargoyles, you have human-looking ones like Goliath, Coldstone, Kai, Yama, and Gabriel. You also have beaked ones like Brooklyn. In addition, you have some that have relatively simian/bulldog faces like Lex, Broadway, and Hudson. You also have overweight ones like Hudson and Broadway, and you also have web-winged ones like Lexington. Plus you have Zafiro types. Also, some of them are hairless, like Lex and Broadway.

But (not including the London Clan) in female gargoyles, they are all basically human-looking, all thin, all have hair, all attractive. What's the deal here? Surely, in a real life gargoyle clan (if there was one) there would be lots of variation in the females too.

I'd really like to see:
-A beaked female
--and--
-A female with wings like Lex

I also wouldn't mind seeing other interesting and unique females. Nothing wrong with Demona and Angela, it's just that more variety would be cool.

Maybe Katana will have some interesting features...I wouldn't want her to be beaked because Brooklyn already is and that would be strange (though I wouldn't mind them having beaked kids)...but it would be cool if maybe she had wings like Lex's or something.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 12:09:03 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

Jurgan> I doubt he'd perform the act with a female.

If you mean literally to donate his sperm... it's inside the realm of possibility, if he has a really good reason to do so and a female willing to be an artificial insemination subject. Not probable, but possible. I mean, gargoyles don't have the need to have their own biological children like a lot of humans do, so both Lex and the female would probably take a lot more convincing than is worth it.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 10:15:33 am EDT from 199.38.51.134

It seems that Kids WB will soon be defunct. I wonder what will happen with Spectacular Spider-Man.
Scott Iskow - [smiskow at lycos dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 9:37:21 am EDT from 207.226.255.67

Matt> *shrug* Obviously in the series they get around. It's a biological nitpick that can be explained away by stylization, artistic license, and not having biologists animate the show (which wouldn't have happened anyway, and budgets usually aren't so big that "experts" can be hired as consultants). It doesn't keep me awake at night or anything, it just mildly irritates that little perfectionistic biologist that lives in the back of my head my head once in awhile. ;P
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 9:04:31 am EDT from 199.38.51.134

Greg Weisman very recently gave an interview at COMICON.com about the upcoming "Bad Guys" mini-series. Very little (if any) new information, obviously (he wants the content to surprise us), but I was delighted to see him use the word "tengu" to describe the Ishimura gargoyles, such as Yama. (He's also still going with the notion of "Harry Monmouth" being Dingo's real name.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 7:41:38 am EDT from 4.244.211.188

Has anyone considered whether Elton John will have biological children? I know he doesn't have a wife, and I don't think his fans would want him forced to live a lie, but if there was an ovulating woman around after a concert, do you think Elton might volunteer to be a sperm donor for the good of the Dwight family name? It seems like a reasonable thing to do.

/sarcasm

267 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"It seems like your utopia is more of a fruitopia." - Stephen Hawking in an episode of "The Simpsons"
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 7:05:54 am EDT from 76.205.97.110

Jurgan> I tend to doubt it. It's kinda offensive. It's like saying "we know Goliath ends up with Elisa, but if theres a female gargoyle laying around at conception time, do you think he'd knock her up for the good of the species?"
I think there is some pressure in gargoyle society to choose a mate and produce offspring, but I doubt think it's realistic to think an individual or clan would want someone to mate with someone else just because there is no other way to reproduce.

Vaevictis> I don't really see the problems you are describing concerning Una's feet. However, perhaps you are right, I don't know. In the Gargoyles Universe, however, I don't think it's a problem.

Same with Zafiro. I'm all for realism in the series, but the point is in the series both Una and Zafiro get around. Just by watching the show, it looks like Zafiro gets by on option C, moving his lower body back and forth to produce forward movement. Keep in mind how muscular gargoyle tails are. We've seen gargs pulls weopons out of people's hands and tose them using their tails. Surely Zafiro has enough strength to push his body forward.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 6:06:23 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

Has anyone considered whether Lex will have biological children? I know he won't have a female mate, and I don't think Greg would want him forced to live a lie, but if there were an unmated female around at conception time, do you think Lex might volunteer to be a sperm donor for the good of the species? It seems like a reasonable thing to do.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"You're so beautiful when you hate the world." -Zuko, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 5:54:20 am EDT from 68.58.254.103

It is 6 issues, but I don't think Greg said anything about it covering the full forty years.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 12:42:01 am EDT from 71.115.192.199

Does anyone know if Timedancer is going to be a 6 issue thing, like Bad Guys? I don't see how they'd get 40 years in 6 issues...
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 4, 2007 12:15:28 am EDT from 24.227.200.138

Matt - <Katana is a generation older than Brooklyn, meaning she probably couldn't concieve again.> Last time anybody asked, Greg Weisman said that he hadn't worked out the when part of where Katana is from. Of course, Greg said this: "Katana was removed from that normal cycle by her time jumping. If she settled down, I wonder if she'd rejoin the normal cycle or not?" My personal theory is that if that egg is laid, Greg doesn't want to confirm either possibility because it would tie his hands.

Greg has already revealed that Broadway & Angela have 3 kids so telling us the date of conception isn't a big spoiler.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 11:30:10 pm EDT from 216.96.23.152

The problem with Una is that her feet have only a fraction of the surface area of other gargoyles' feet. Really, look at Lynati's screenshots. Each hoof is maybe 2 in on a side, as animated. That is less surface area to volume than a human on tiptoes, and far less than what other gargoyles stand on. In addition, her lower legs are far longer than the length of a human foot or even a clawed gargoyle's foot. They look just like antelope legs.

Basically, she is animated with the hooves and long hocks that a four-legged antelope or horse would have. But the artists neglected that those animals spread their weight over four legs, so they don't need each foot to be nearly as large as a biped would! Four legged ungulates also move in a way that allows them to have long hocks like that, while a biped must walk in a very different way, and would benefit from shorter feet.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 7:53:52 pm EDT from 63.225.152.6

Matt> Supporting him isn't as much the issue - he could just have superb balance. I doubt his vestigial legs are large, or connected to his spine, especially since there's no outward evidence of them. But this would mean he's lighter and has more room for musculature, so that's not really the problem.

As Vaevictis said, it's movement. With no legs, there are limited means of locomotion - three, that I know of.

A. Rectilinear movement, which would rely on the scales underneath to move back and forth, grabbing ground as they move forward to shift the animal's weight (used by the largest snakes because of their bulk).
B. Concertina movement, in which the back end is pressed against something (an object/tunnel wall/etc) while the front is straightened and thrust forward, then forms the anchor for the back end to scrunch up behind (used mainly in confined areas and for climbing, but is very energy expensive).
C. Lateral undulation, the usual mode of moving side to side in waves that carry the animal forward (sidewinding counts as a modified version of this).

There isn't really enough of Zafiro, as animated, to move him forward efficiently. Type A would be waaaaaaaay slower than normal walking speed even if his entire length rested on the ground, and there's just not enough of him back there for B or C. I'm not saying that he has to have another 20' of tail tacked on (since that would make gliding a challenge), just that he needs some extra for realism's sake.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 7:35:23 pm EDT from 24.98.74.35

I don't think Una has any issues. I mean, she's not THAT heavy! Try standing on your toes, it really isn't that big of a deal, and gargoyles generally walk on their toes anyway, so I'm sure they are even better at it than we are.
As for Zafiro, keep in mind that this leg and foot bones may exist inside his lower trunk along with his upper tail bones. If so, that is a lot of skeletal support. The part that drags along the groun is probably just the end of his tail. Afterall, hes no taller or shorter than a typical gargoyle in his usual stance. If he does have leg and feet bones, as I suspect, the feet are probably resting on the ground and assisting to support his weight.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 5:51:53 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Kerry >> Yes, I agree. It seems that there should be more surface on the ground, not so much to support his weight as to be able to move it. And take a look at Una, she's got such tiny hooves! I can't imagine that just two feet that size can support her weight. But I take it as artistic license, like you said.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 5:28:40 pm EDT from 70.56.168.178

Brook & Katana> Yeah, if they don't have a third egg, I doubt it is because they choose not to. Almost certainly if no third egg is laid/hatched it is because (in my opinion, most to least likely):

1. Either Brook or Katana (or both) die between arriving back at the Castle in 1997 and the next breeding cycle (September 2007). A lot can happen in ten and a half years.
2. An egg is laid but does not hatch or is destroyed.
3. Katana is a generation older than Brooklyn, meaning she probably couldn't concieve again.
4. Brook and Katana leave the Manhattan Clan and the egg is lain elsewhere.

I doubt we'll get an answer to this question until Greg writes it, which could be a while.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 5:00:39 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Rebel - The submit button will be reopened next week with the release of gargoyles comic issue #6. Greg Weisman is not as inclined to give away spoilers now that the comic is being released. I would suggest checking Ask Greg archives before asking a question. There has been a problem is the past with the backlog at Ask Greg being large.

Sunday, October 7, is the 6th month anniversary of Greg Weisman doing TDIGUH.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 4:25:23 pm EDT from 216.96.23.152

Thanks Wingless. Great news!

MCoG is an awesome, awesome, awesome show! The theme song is one of my favorites.

BUT, and that's a huge but, I don't think I'll be buying it.

Why?

1) The show is left open ended. There are 7 cities of gold and it takes them 39 episodes to find one. But the series never got picked up for more episodes so the journey continues for eternity.

2) For 39 episodes, the big burning question is that of the identity of the main character's father which is finally answered in the last episode. But then he dies.

So the temptation might be too great to buy it. Unfortunately, this series will leave you as empty as your wallet after buying it.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Whenever you set out to do something, something else must be done first.
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 4:19:03 pm EDT from 159.240.11.254

Not Garg related, but some of you might be interested-especially Gorebash: Mysterious Cities Of Gold is coming to DVD in 2008! A series we never got in Canada(at least not my part of it).
here's the Lo-down: http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Mysterious-Cities-Gold-DVD-Rights-Acquired/8176

Hope this brightens some of your day.
Wingless
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 3:54:07 pm EDT from 74.115.187.62

Man, I really wish Ask Greg would open back up! I am just itching with speculations and questions! Grrr...
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 3:32:52 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

Vaevictis> LOL!

I wish Zafiro's tail was longer. Most snakes that can raise themselves up can only lift the front 1/3 off the ground without having to deal with arms or wings, so unless he's really light, he needs a lot more on the ground bracing him. I can write that off as artistic license, I suppose, but it still niggles at the back of my mind.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 1:41:09 pm EDT from 199.38.51.134

Kerry >> I guess he's just lucky he lives in a pyramid?

Phoenician <<(look at Goliath & Demona's EXTREMELY low odds of having another kid, all sorcery aside)>>
I think you overestimate their chances! :D
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 1:20:18 pm EDT from 70.56.168.178

VA: "I can't imagine any reason why Brooklyn and Katana would not try for a third."

It's sad to think about, but there IS the chance one of them may not survive long enough to try for a third kid. Not to mention there's always the possibility that Katana and Brooklyn may have a falling of ways (look at Goliath & Demona's EXTREMELY low odds of having another kid, all sorcery aside).

Personally, I hope Brooklyn finally finds the right gal (finally) and they stay with each other for life (as Gargoyles typically do) . . . but hey, anything's possible.
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 12:21:04 pm EDT from 157.242.193.209

Vaevictis> London clan - I agree that most myths should be left open for the Third Race; everything being inspired by gargoyles would get boring, and relegate Oberon's Children to the background, which is doing them a big disservice.

Fox's cycle - Perhaps I should have said "average" (28 days, ovulation on day 14). Even normal humans can have irregular cycles or ovulate on a different day.

Zafiro's climbing - I guess it depends on what type of building it is, and whether his belly scales would be able to grip the surface like a snake's do. The stone ones the clan lives in wouldn't be too much of a problem given the texture of the stone itself (if his scales grip), but a metal and glass structure would definitely give him problems.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 10:52:14 am EDT from 199.38.51.134

I can't imagine any reason why Brooklyn and Katana would not try for a third. Considering that gargoyles are nearly extinct, the Manhattan Clan in particular is extremely small, and gargoyles have only three chances in their lifetimes to reproduce, I can't concieve what reason they would have for giving up their only chance at a third biological child. But, we will just have to wait and see. Maybe Greg just enjoys tormenting us, or something.

Patrick >> No, we're obsessed about whether Brooklyn and Katan are doing it!

Matt >> It was in last week's fanart discussion... somewhere. Sorry.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 10:48:08 am EDT from 70.56.168.178

Lexington: "Hey, Broadway... Angela... come check this out. There's a whole internet forum obsessing over whether or not you two are doing it!"

:P

268 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Internets is serious business." - Anonymous
posted @ Wed, Oct 3, 2007 6:55:43 am EDT from 76.205.97.110

Yes dph. I read in the gargwiki that all females are able to get pregnant once in 20 years, so if Artus was conceived a few days ago, then Brook's third would have to have been conceived then as well. Greg hasn't put it on the timeline nor has he specifically stated that it won't happen...I'm hoping that it's something that he's mulling over in his mind and just hasn't made up his mind about.

Heehee, I've just always thought it would be really cool if Artus ended up with one of Brook's kids. That would be so...appropriate, ya know?
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 11:38:09 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

Rebel - you do realize that the same date for Artus to be conceived would potentially be the same date for Katana to become pregnant with Brooklyn's 3rd child unless Katana was too old? Of course, there are very good reasons for Greg Weisman not to mention it, which I don't feel like discussing at this moment.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 10:25:16 pm EDT from 216.96.23.152

I've also thought it'd be cool if Artus grew up with Brook's third kid. Greg's not telling though...

As for the London Clan meeting the Mutates, I think they'd know right away by smell if nothing else. Maybe be fooled from a distance at first, but I think they'd know.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 10:15:47 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

So...I take it we have no way of knowing for certain whether Brooklyn and Katana will be trying for a third when Angela gets pregnant? I'm really hoping they will. It would be sooo perfect if Brooklyn had a third child (preferably female) so that Artus would have a playmate while growing up.

Also, has anyone ever thought about how the London clan would react to one of the Mutates (especially Maggie)? Would they think it was possibly another gargoyle or know right away it wasn't?

And has Greg ever made mention of Maggie and Talon having children?
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 7:00:57 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

Rebel> Cool! That looks neat, I never thought about using existing screenshots to create new characters in that fashion. I probably am not computer-savvy enough to do it either, but you did a good job. True, she does look Demona-esque, but that isn't neccesarily a bad thing. Maybe if you kept Demona's hairstyle but made it white or something. I'd love to see your take on Artus (using Hudson, Broadway and Goliath, I'd imagine).

London Clan> I tend to go with Vaevictis on this one. I thbink there is more there than just three types, just mixing features of the types we've seen can show that, and I think very similiar types are very likely (wolves, bears, boars, bulls, goats, eagle/falcon/hawks, etc). Now when we get to things like dragons, I tend to draw the line. They are very different looking and don't fit into the bird/mammal theme very well.

And hey, Vaevictis, do you have a link to that pic of a Una/Leo offspring?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 5:31:43 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Rebel >> Welcome!

London Clan >> I really don't want to see the London Clan, or any other clan, have every possible heraldic animal squeezed into it. Gargoyles are supposed to be a natural, biological, non-magical species, and the chameleon genes can only be taken so far before they become rediculous and unbelievable. As it is, I find that Una and Zafiro are pretty hard to believe (regardless of how neat they look).
Realistically, it doesn't make sense that every single heraldic and mythical creature in Europe, or the whole world, was inspired by gargoyles. Some of them (especially real animals like wolves, boars, foxes, etc) are probably just animals, while others are probably Children of Oberon or their half-mortal offspring. Some are probably purely the fancy of some heraldic artist. It is fun to think about mythical animals that are similar to gargoyles, and I hope to see some in the Korean, Xanadu, and New Olympian Clans, but I prefer the species to be limited to those that are most similar to gargoyles (in appearance and symbolism) than being the same mythological grab-bag that the Third Race are. Let the Third Race by everymyth (and they are!) -- gargoyles are supposed to be a natural, biological, mortal race.
I don't see why it is so limiting about griffins/winged lions/winged unicorns. Just by combining the three designs we have, you can get pegasi, horned winged lions, horned griffins, hippogryphs, horned hippogryphs, and all in-between. One of the fanarts linked to last week had an image of a fan character, a biological son of Una and Leo, who looked like no real animal but was not "freakish" at all.
Gryphon iconography is also far more varied in ancient art than just the classic European heraldic gryphon, and if gryphon art everywhere was inspired by gargoyles, then there were hooved gryphons, gryphons with the horns of unicorns or long goat horns, dog-headed gryphons, bat-winged gryphons, maned gryphons, short-tailed gryphons, spiked gryphons, gryphons with fishy fins on their heads, etc.

Climbing >> I think Una and especially Zafiro must have a harder time climbing buildings. But Una probably sticks her hooves into the holes her claws make as she climbs.

Sex >> I wonder what effect the werewolf incident had on Alex.
I doubt that Fox has abnormal menstrual cycles. I've always assumed that she is, outwardly, a normal human.

David >> That Goliath art is great! The color of his wing membranes probably should be black or dark blue, and the texture of the cloth is odd (probably unavoidable) but otherwise it looks just like the real thing.

Books >> I've read and enjoyed too many books to list them all just like that. My two favorite authors are Tolkien and David Brin, and I also ~love~ Greek mythology.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 3:31:59 pm EDT from 63.225.152.19

Thanks guys. And just to clarify, I didn't actually "draw" that image. I took an image of Demona, edited out her jewelry and crown, changed her clothing, recolored her, added Broadway's ears, and added Broadway's wings. I *wish* I could draw like that! lol
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 2:01:54 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

Rebel> Nice job. :)

It's a very well-drawn image and looks like it could've actually been an authentic canon character.

You are a professional.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 1:14:10 pm EDT from 12.75.84.145

Rebel> Neat image. I really like the color scheme. ^_^ (I don't think the clothes are her color, but that's not the point. LOL)
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 12:25:00 pm EDT from 199.38.51.134

For people that are wondering why I'm upset, it's as I mentioned before. I kinda have a thing for heraldry, so it bothers me that only the "big three" heraldry animals will be included, and not the others that are just as significant (i.e. wolf, stag, boar, fox, badger, dragon, phoenix, etc.). If some of the combinations that Kerry's mentioned happen (i.e. they at least *look* like wolves or boars or something) then that wouldn't bother me at all. Basically I feel that if you're going to do heraldry, do ALL of heraldry...or at least a good chunk of it, not just scrape the top...

Anyway, I was sitting around this morning wondering what Gwynevere might end up looking like...and I came up with what I think could be a really cool looking gargoyle:

-Angela/Demona's build
-Angela's skin coloring
-Demona's hair
-Broadway's wings
-Broadway's ears
-The little spikes that grow on Broadway's head (except longer), or Hudson's head spikes (except, once again, longer)


I actually was goofing around with painthop this morning and came up with a design from mashing different colors and "parts" together. It's by no means a perfect design, and I admit it looks too much like Demona (largely because I used her as my base image). But, I loved the idea of combining lavender skin with red hair (I really think *somebody* needs to inherit Demona's awesome hair...preferably Gwyn or Samson). My second choice would be Hudson's white hair...but I didn't want to go with black because black hair seems a little overdone amongst gargoyles. Also, I left the inside of the wings green just to see if I'd like it that way, and I think it looks interesting. I wasn't able to add any spikes to the head because I couldn't figure out how to do that with Demona's hair...anyway, here's the pic if you want to take a look:

http://tribe.ulm.edu/~fornearl/Gwyn.jpg

I know it looks kinda fuzzy, but that's because I worked from low-quality images. I'm not actually looking for criticism per se...mostly I'm just interested in seeing what other people's thoughts were for what future gargoyle characters would look like. Do you have any ideas in your head for what you'd like to see a future character look like? Not that it matters since we don't get to choose, but I'm just curious.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 12:08:51 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

Tony> Oh, the inside definitely counts a heck of a lot more than the outside. Without their personalities, they'd be no fun at all no matter how they looked (kind of like how special effects movies with bad writing/acting fall flat on their faces). I'm definitely not saying that form is more important than substance.

And the fact that the different clans each have a different look to them is a really nice touch - I think it's a great idea and adds realism. The proverbial fly in the ointment comes from assumptions about the looks of the London combinations (i.e., that they'll all look pretty much the same). I'm not sure that assumption is correct.

I think a descendant of a lion and a unicorn could look very wolflike in the face, and with a mane would be a heraldic tiger (and without, would cover wolf and fox, depending on color). A different child of the same ancestry could look like a bear, or a boar. Birdlike ones of different colors could be assumed to be different heraldic birds (eagle, falcon, etc). A horsey one with no mane, clawed feet, a lion tail, and sharp teeth could be taken for a dragon, though that'd be a stretch without leathery wings or the "normal" thicker garg tail. That's assuming all of them have feathery ones, which is not the case in Guatemala, but may or may not be in London.

It'd be great if there were another couple of bases to go off of (like a stag, which combined the right way would cover goat and bull), but I think what we've got may recombine into enough variety.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 11:19:35 am EDT from 199.38.51.134

Kerry (Kth) Boyd> You make a valid point and I know I may be over simplifying it, but when you create a new race that no one has ever heard of before and you're presenting it to the masses (like Greg Weisman has done), you need to stick to a specific formula. American people look one way while Japanese people look another way and I know we can agree on that based on your diagrams that you have linked to. So I believe that it shouldn't be too difficult to accept that London Gargoyles will look one way, and Guatemalan gargoyles will look another way, while not deviating from their basic formula that makes them what they are - on the outside only.

I'm of the opinion that Greg could have made all the Gargoyles look like a porcupine with a bat wings and the antlers of deer, and I would still enjoy the show as long as they all were different on the inside. And I think Greg excels at bringing us that.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Whenever you set out to do something, something else must be done first.
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 10:19:26 am EDT from 159.240.11.254

Tony> True, there are three main "types" of human, but skin color is not all that defines them. Check these out - they're really cool.

http://cedarseed.deviantart.com/art/Guide-to-Human-Types-part-1-32046017
http://cedarseed.deviantart.com/art/Guide-to-Human-Types-part-2-33220929
http://cedarseed.deviantart.com/art/Guide-to-Human-Types-part-3-34877428

Anyway, we humans don't have the "random chameleonic gene" or whatever is responsible for the vast diversity of gargoyle facial/horn/etc structures. With their odd genetics in mind, it wouldn't take much to turn a lionish garg like Leo into a bearish one: ditch the mane and reshape the snout a little bit, and there you go. Same goes for horse to boar. Heck, add a "normal" garg tail to one like Griff and you conceivably have a cockatrice. And of course a hippogriff would be easy. ;P

We're used to seeing vastly different gargoyle faces, and being pinned down like that is a shock to some systems.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 9:54:54 am EDT from 199.38.51.134

It would make a lot more sense if there would be only three types of "animal bases".
Demon@
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 9:36:30 am EDT from 190.16.199.84

I don't know why some are upset that the London clan is limited by the look of lion, unicorn, and griffin.

Think about it from the human perspective. There are really only three types of people when it comes to their outward appearance - dark colored skin, light colored skin, or a mix of both.

So think of lion as dark colored, unicorn as light colored, and griffin as a mix of both. After all, I think MLK Jr. said it best, "…one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Whenever you set out to do something, something else must be done first.
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 9:21:33 am EDT from 159.240.11.254

London clan> Okay. So it appears from all the answers that we could find that at least most of the London gargs will look sort of like the three we saw. Fortunately that does leave room for outliers. If the population follows a normal bell curve, 50% will be very close to the ones we've seen, another 40% will sort of resemble them, and 10% will look very different.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 8:57:32 am EDT from 199.38.51.134

Sorry for the double post, but just noticed today's TDiGUH, which marks today as the date when Elisa helped the trio order their costumes for Halloween. Presumably sometime during the same night or earlier, Elisa explained to the clan how the night was celebrated in modern times and between the group of them, they came up with the idea that gargoyles might be able to walk around unnoticed while everyone was in costume.
Demonskrye
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 8:37:26 am EDT from 209.6.249.41

London Clan physiology> The Ask Greg answers aren't completely defnite one way or the other. But with "lion, unicorn, and griffin" identified as "the big three", I think we could see the occasional variation or complete deviation from the norm that we've seen. I'd be willing to hazard a strong guess that there are gargoyles in the clan that look more like pegasuses (pegasi? Anyone?) having missed out on the "horn" gene from the unicorn parent, or gargoyles that are more birdlike, since the griffin is essentially a combination of a lion and a bird. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the occasional gargoyle that doesn't fit the usual London clan look. Given that Griff correctly identifies Goliath's Scottish origins, I would not be shocked to learn that there are a few gargoyles whose biological ancestors came from Scottish clans and who retain a largely humanoid appearence.
Demonskrye
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 8:34:30 am EDT from 209.6.249.41

Children at age 11 are full of fun. By age 18, they're full of something else.

269 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"I said, 'Son, what happened to you hair?' He said 'I don't know.' I said, 'Son, was your head with you all day today?'" - Bill Cosby
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 6:55:58 am EDT from 76.205.97.110

Sorry for the double post (assuming someone else doesn't post while I'm writing this). I found a couple more telling Ask Greg responses:

Justin writes...
Dear Greg,
1)Why are the London gargoyles only limited to lion s,horses and birds? That seems kinda silly.
2) How many eggs hatched to the London clan in 1998?
3) How many beasts does this clan have?
4) How many children do Leo and Una have?
5) Will Griff find a mate?
6) Why is Una the leader?
7)Shouldn't one of the younger generation take over?

Thanks

Greg responds...
1. You're thinking about this backwards. You might as easily ask why are the Wyvern gargoyles limited to what you've seen of them? And at any rate, you've got it wrong. The London gargs vaguely resemble various combinations of Griffin, Winged Lion and Winged Unicorn .

2. I'm not going to answer this at this time.

3. Ditto.

4. Many clan-children.

5. Not telling.

6. That's complex. Why is Goliath the leader? It's how things turned out. I will say, that she's highly intelligent, and has done a good job at keeping the clan safe.

7. Eventually. What's your hurry?

Response recorded on February 26, 2001

Scott Iskow writes...
Concerning Clan London:

1. Would a child of Leo and Una possess characteristics of both a lion and a unicorn ?

2. If so, does that mean that Leo's parents were both lion -feature gargoyles and Una's unicorn -feature? I ask this because they don't seem to have too many features of other animals.

3. What are some other creatures, (besides lion , unicorn , and griffin), that Clan London resembles?

4. Slightly related to the first question. Writing it out made me remember that " lion and the unicorn " quote from an episode of "Batman" with Kate Mulgrew (and, no doubt, also from some literary source I've yet to discover; I won't bother you by asking what the source is since I can just ask the comment room). Is it just a coincidence that Leo and Una seem connected to the quote? (I kind of doubt it... the show's full of clever little things like that.)

Thanks, Greg!

Greg responds...
1. Potentially. Or one or the other. Or latent stuff from an ancestor.

2. Not necessarily.

3. Those are the big three.

4. Probably less a coincidence then common influences. I think maybe the quote you're referring to is from one of the two Alice books. The notion that Lewis Carroll was influenced by the heraldic symbols that surrounded him in Oxford (where he lived and worked) was also an influence on me when I studied there. (Of course, I could be wrong.)

Response recorded on August 21, 2000
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 6:20:56 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

I know Greg said somewhere that the variety of the London Clan is limited to the three types we've seen; what we see is what we get, or something to that effect. I'm having problems finding that link too. I did, however, find a question I asked in RESPONSE to that question: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/archives.php?lid=97&qid=5938
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 6:00:16 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

While it's no secret that some of us are comic fans, what regular books have you read and enjoy reading. For me it's:

To Kill A Mockingbird (Harper Lee)
The Count Of Monte Cristo (Alexandre Dumas)
The Shrinking Man (Richard Matheson)

Also read The Sherlock Holmes stories: The Final Problem and The Empty House.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 4:21:03 am EDT from 71.115.192.199

Starlioness - <I wonder if Greg will tell us when others are conceived, namely Broadway,Nashville etc..> Not to rain on your parade, but given the current knowledge, we can nail down the exact date (to within 2-3 days) of when practically any known gargoyle was conceived (as opposed to being cloned). Gargoyles can only lay eggs once every 20 years and that's around the time of the Spring Equinox. Gargoyles are conceived during the Fall Equinox, which is roughly 6 months earlier. There has been questions about when (year) the Avalon clan hatched because of math complications, but we can nail down what years gargoyles hatch. The best part about this elegant solution is its simplicity. All female gargoyles on Earth can become pregnant in the exact same years around the same time that year. Gargoyles hatch in ad years ending with the numbers 18, 38, 58 78, and 98. Gargoyle eggs are laid in ad years ending in 08, 28, 48, 68, and 88.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 4:16:56 am EDT from 216.96.23.152

here is the link about the English Gargs ..

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?sid=616076&qid=7422

variety is the spice of life as they say.. ;)

I wonder if Greg will tell us when others are conceived, namely Broadway,Nashville etc..

interesting note, there is a city in Isreal named Dimona. pronounced the same way as Demona too. fancy that.

Alex> as Xanatos says,Larger than life, like his parents.
Starlioness
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 12:46:53 am EDT from 67.171.38.50

I've done a few searches and found a number of interesting results...I'm not going to post it all because then this response would be way too long, but if you do searches in Ask Greg for "London", "London Clan", "lions griffins unicorns", "heraldry", and "heraldic", you'll see everything I saw.

And yes, he has been characteristically vague. He has never said, with absolute certainty, that there will NOT be other heraldic beasts represented. He frequently does use "etc" and so I'm really hoping that means he'll include some of the other heraldic beasts.

I hope you'll all forgive me for making such a big deal out of this. It's just that I'm a bit of a heraldry buff and I find it upsetting that other significant animals might be left out. Granted, the griffin, unicorn, and lion are obviously the most prevalent but there are still many others that were often used (as mentioned in my previous posts). Anyway...I'm going to stop talking about this because I know I'm getting nowhere. asdfakjalsdgajsdgjdfdfdfdsdfs

Going to bed now. Night!
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 2, 2007 12:24:21 am EDT from 24.227.200.138

I'd like to see the link too... the closest I can find says "Most of the gargoyles in England are of the Griffon, Lion, Unicorn, *ETC* variety. Modeled off heraldry." (emphasis mine) That etc. opens up a lot more possibilities. I know he's mentioned taking the three we've seen and combining and stuff like that, but for the most part his answers have been purposely vague.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 10:57:27 pm EDT from 24.98.74.35

I also would be against *all sorts* of animals showing up. I definitely would prefer if they stuck to heraldic beasts. But nonetheless, I still think it would be really cool to add a few new varieties in, like wolves, boars, badgers, stags, etc. I just don't see why they won't be included. The obvious answer, of course, is because it's Greg's comic and he says so...still, it just doesn't seem like a very good decision at all. Even if Greg is still planning on sticking to combinations...why not add a few more animals to the mix? Why *those three* heraldic beasts, when so many others were used in medieval England? *sigh* This makes me sad.

Also, I definitely favor variations in coloring, facial "build", hair, etc. With considerable variations in these areas, you could conceivably have two gargoyles of the same animal variety, but they could look totally different. For example, look at Mufasa and Scar.

Whatever Greg and the artists come up with, I'm sure it's going to look awesome, but still...I just really wish they'd use the other heraldic beasts as well. I'm not saying they should have a zoo or anything...

By the way, can anyone link me to the place where Greg actually said that it would only be these three animal types? I'm curious.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 10:38:46 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

Greg B> As I think is becoming obvious in here, I don't think anyone was raising any eyebrows about Alex's conception or when it happened. I think most people were simply surprised that Greg mentioned it. I was. Although, given that Greg mentioned Artus' conception date a few days ago, perhaps I shouldn't have been.

London Gargoyles> Yeah, Greg has said that the are limited to the three types we saw, but he also said combinations and such do exist. In my mind that actually opens up a lot. First off, you have Griff. Griff already seems a bit of a combo between and lion and an eagle/hawk/falcon. Perhaps there are gargs with more eagle/hawk/falcon qualities and less lion qualities. Secondly, obviously gargoyles like Una without the horn would resemble winged horses (pegasi) as opposed to winged unicorns. Then there is the mixture of what we have seen. I once did a sketch of a biological child of Una and Leo. He ended up looking like Leo, he had a tannish mane and the same lion-esque tail, but his ears were pointed like Una's and he had Una's white/pink/purple skin coloring. He also had Una's horn. If I do say so myself, I thought he looked really cool. So I do think mixes are very possible without looking "freakish".
Finally, and least likely to work out with Greg's idea, is the idea of very similiar heraldic creatures. I once took a Hudson action figure and combined it with the armor from the bull-Goliath action figure to create an English gargoyle resembling a heraldic bull. It had a bull's head (similiar to Taurus') and hooves and tail. We havn't seen it in the series of course, but I do not think a bull is a big leap from a horse in terms of apperence. Take Una, make her male, but two horns on the side of her head as opposed to her single horn, give him Leo's coloring and you more or less have the custom figure I created. Along the same lines, a variation on Lion-like gargoyles could be a heraldic bear.
So looking at all this, we can see a large variety is possible: Winged Unicorn, Winged Horse (Pegasus), Winged Lion, Griffon, Falcon/Eagle/Hawk, Winged Bull, Winged Bear, and various combinations thereof.
Another thing to consider is the variety in coloration. I can see all sorts of white to gray to black, plus many shades of red and brown and khaki.
All in all, I think they could be a diverse lot indeed, if the artists takes them in that direction.
I would be against all sorts of animals showing up (like Greg says, giraffe-goyles and ostrich-goyles). Even some heraldic beasts like dragons don't seem to fit the mammal/bird theme of the English Clan.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 10:22:54 pm EDT from 24.207.163.239

Side thought: All this talk about David & Fox just made me realize . . . Alex is about 11 years old in the present day, huh?

Kid must be full of fun, eh?
Phoenician - [<---My Kinda Useless Blog]
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 10:05:36 pm EDT from 157.242.212.252

david: Nice modelling! Was that done with 3D Studio Max or Maya?
The One Known As Mochi - [rolandsteinert at hotmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>^.^)>
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 9:55:12 pm EDT from 72.199.226.114

Meh. I don't feel that great about the London gargs all being unicorns, griffins, lions, or combinations thereof. First of all, if they can be combinations of the three, then why are Una, Griff, and Leo oh-so-conveniently NOT combinations of the three? Why are they all distinctly one or the other?

And as far as the idea itself of combining unicorns, lions, and griffins, I honestly believe that they will end up looking awfully freakish and unappealing. I very much dislike this idea.

I also have another issue with this...Greg has said before in Ask Greg that he believes gargoyles have some sort of "random mutation gene" that helps them handle their environment better and adapt more closely to where they are living. Being that the London gargs are in England, it makes some sense that resembling heraldry beasts may have helped the gargoyles there coexist with the humans more peacefully. An English person from 500-1000 years ago would likely find a creature that resembled a heraldry animal to be much less threatening than some other gargoyle design (in other words they'd probably find someone like Brooklyn or Broadway more frightening than someone like Una or Leo). So the gargoyles resembling heraldry beasts makes sense in terms of safety. In which case, having them resemble other creatures like boars, wolves, dragons, phoenixes, doves, badgers, falcons, etc, ALSO makes sense as it would be something they were accustomed to and saw on shields and tapestries often in addition to unicorns, lions, and griffins. (Actually dragons might be a poor choice...).

However, making the gargs look like strange combinations of heraldry animals would NOT make much sense in terms of survival as a human would likely be quite a bit more fearful of a lion/griffin combo ("WTF IS THAT??") than he would be of a gargoyle who resembles a boar.

Anyway these are just my thoughts. From an artistic perspective, I think it would just be much cooler to see LOTS of heraldry animals instead of just three heraldry animals and weird combinations of them.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 9:14:32 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

Fox and Xanatos: Hot.

My first thought actually was: so early, re: Alex's conception? But I guess they can afford not to care about when they have children.

As for the London Clan, I can imagine Una claw-climbing with her hooves. Zafiro would just move his tail, or something, I guess...

I like the idea of the London Clan designs being narrowed, even if it's not canon yet. Artistically it just seems like a better design choice. With such visual restrictions, the London Clan seems more credible as a gargoyle branch: with possible combinations of features, members wouldn't look simply like those three animals, but also like something more unique, so they aren't just "gargoyle versions of animals".

Older fanart, where London gargs can look like any animal, just looks very confusing to me.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 8:18:58 pm EDT from 216.36.154.204

sorry about multiple IP thing for those who felt confused bt didnt inquire about.
C&i&J.A live in the same suite,and others in the same dorm..
we share a virtual IP (code started 192.168..) from the same telecom station box..
anyway we dont want this even not worthy of mentioning thing ruin the chatting atmosphere.
Jan
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 8:13:27 pm EDT from 220.131.122.183

Hell, I would have had premarital sex with Xanatos.

A good looking, multi-billionaire bachelor. I mean, come on! LOL
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 8:08:59 pm EDT from 68.202.76.113

I agree with Purplegoldfish... Xanatos and Fox don't seem to be particularly romantic or morally inclined. Remember when Xanatos proposed? He didn't even mention that they love each other, even Fox asked, "What about love?" It doesn't surprise me at all that they would engage in premarital sex.

(But I don't think everyone who engages in premarital sex is like them... There are relationships where the two are faithful to each other and it could also be their first time, but they had sex before marriage. In my opinion I see nothing wrong with that.) But Purplegoldfish is right, what you think to be morally right/wrong is your own affair.
Audra - [birdygirl85 at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 8:00:27 pm EDT from 70.56.28.220

Incidentally, I found a place where I could get those old Marvel comics. It's this really great (yet oddly obscure) website. They have a strange way of doing business, but they seem to have one of the biggest inventories in existence for comic books. If any of you are comic book nerds, you might benefit from this website:

http://www.dougcomicworld.com/
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 7:45:58 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

of course you guys will see those multiple names from the same IP cuz my dormates and i share the same computer=sorry about confusing some of you getting at this.
and other commands..,i dont get it.
C
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 7:44:35 pm EDT from 220.131.122.183

Diamond's website confirms that Gargoyles issue #6 is coming out next week. It's also the 1st issue that costs $3.95. :-( Oh well.

Saturday is the 6th month anniversary of the start of This day in Gargoyles' Universe History.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 7:30:02 pm EDT from 216.96.23.152

"And btw, what's with the multiple names and then being anonymous?" - That's what's known on the internet as "sock puppets".
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 5:38:00 pm EDT from 76.205.97.110

"i agree with you totally
the engagement night was largely not their first time having sex,but probaly the first time without wearing contraceptives ><)"

Oh wait, you're Jan too...okay I'm confused because you seem to be contradicting yourself in a later post. Could you please choose a handle and stick with it because it is very confusing to see what your point is. We can all see you're the same person because of the IP addresses.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 5:07:26 pm EDT from 64.148.24.204

J.A/C- Are we talking about the same characters here? Xanatos and Fox don't strike me as being particularly romantic or morally inclined. I mean, Xanatos' marriage proposal sounded like a business proposal. They certainly strike me as the type of people who would engage in premarital sex.

and no offense, but what you think to be morally right/wrong is your own affair. Don't cast your unsound opinions on others just because you don't believe it is right.
And btw, what's with the multiple names and then being anonymous?

Oh and Rebel: Hi! Welcome to the forum *waves*
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 5:02:40 pm EDT from 64.148.24.204

Jan/J.A/C/Anonymous> Yes, I'm pretty sure that the consensus is that Fox and Xanatos had pre-martial sex many times before the birth of Alex. I think the big surprise a) Greg revealing this type of info and b) the stir it appears to be causing in the CR Room.

Unfortunately, while this discussion rages on, people may be missing the link to David's digital rendering of Goliath. It's coming along well, David.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Whenever you set out to do something, something else must be done first.
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 4:57:10 pm EDT from 159.240.11.254

i think Xanatos&Fox apparently have premarital sex relationship.i guess that they might came across eachother very early since Owen was already working for Xanatos in 1991. i also thought that something must had happened between them during "leader of the pack".i just dont think that they could cohabit but left nothing turned up..
Anonymous
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 4:17:29 pm EDT from 220.131.122.183

Vicky,it seems like 9 days late,but refering to medical statistics,its still in the average period of giving birth^^
C
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 3:56:31 pm EDT from 220.131.122.183

i disagree with the idea that Fox&Xanatos started relationship with sexual encounter,if their relationship can be develop this way,then they wouldnt be eachothers' spouse.Instead, it could be anyone who just happened to meet the sexual needs.and they dont seem like this kind of frivolous low-brow people.
PS no offends.
J.A
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 3:42:40 pm EDT from 220.131.122.183

HOMG Fox and Xanatos had premarital sex?!? That never happens!! ;P
Seriously though, I think it's more shocknig that greg says stuff like that because the show used to have a young audience, and it is a disney cartoon. God forbid anything like this should come out when the show was airing, because of those overly prude parents.
On another note, I wonder if the eye of odin has anything to do with Alex's rapid growth.

battle beast: Lol, maybe that's why elisa is so attached to her car ;)
but I do recall reading that Elisa wasn't a virgin when she met goliath, and that she had relations with more than one man.

David: That looks really good! It looks like you worked hard on it
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 3:28:28 pm EDT from 64.148.24.204

Is there anyone in this comment room who was a virgin on their wedding night?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Whenever you set out to do something, something else must be done first.
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 3:17:22 pm EDT from 159.240.11.254

Sorry for the double post...

But anyway, I agree that I'm not shocked at all about Fox and Xanatos' premarital relations. If I were to guess, I would say the relationship probably began with a sexual encounter anyway...and ended up happening again...and again...and then developed into a relationship.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 2:21:30 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

David> WOW! Nice work on that Goliath. I think his arms might need to be a little beefier and his waist a little narrower, though. But overall that model is amazing!! Are you going to use that in a game or something?
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 2:18:52 pm EDT from 24.227.200.138

Vicky> Something like that, but a lot of other factors affect when a baby will be born. First pregnancies tend to last longer, for instance. This is also assuming that Fox has a regular menstrual cycle, as the due date is usually based on the time of the mother's last period (average due date = 40 weeks afterward).
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 1:19:12 pm EDT from 199.38.51.134

Fox & Xanatos having premarital sex?? Didn't surprise me -- kinda hard to forget Petros getting after his son about him not doing his marriage right in "Vows".
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 12:57:10 pm EDT from 157.242.200.74

One interesting feature of Alex being conceived on October 1 is that, according to my copy of "365: Your Date With History" (an enjoyable book which lists noteworthy historical events for every date of the year), October 1 was the date of Alexander the Great's overthrow of the Persian king Darius III in the Battle of Gaugamela (his biggest battle), and Alex was named after Alexander the Great. It's probably just a coincidence, though.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 12:36:57 pm EDT from 4.244.209.62

so if Alex was conceived on Oct 1st then he should be born July 1st but it was July 9th so he was born 9 days late, am I right.
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
myspace.com/sweetandinnocentvicky
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 12:33:11 pm EDT from 195.93.21.4

To G
... that the night he proposed was probably not even the first night they had sex. They most likely weren't each other's firsts either. Probably not even seconds, thirds, or... you get the idea.
i agree with you totally
the engagement night was largely not their first time having sex,but probaly the first time without wearing contraceptives ><)
Jan
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 11:56:51 am EDT from 220.131.122.183

I think I was more surprised that Greg mentioned it more than the idea that Xanatos and Fox had pre-marital sex. Hey, they're both mature adults who've been dating/lovers for a while now, so it was probably more of the same.

Hooves> I can see how it'd be viewed as a limitation, but hooves are pretty hard in general. They may not have the gripping ability of regular toes, but they can probably dig in, as was suggested earlier.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 11:36:33 am EDT from 131.204.97.9

Elisa lost in on prom night to some guy named Gary in the back seat of her Fairlane down on Delancy Street.
Battle Beast - [wlukinuk at telus dot net]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 11:21:58 am EDT from 142.59.132.201

Greg B> I can only speak for myself, but I was more surprised that Greg confirmed it than I was that it actually happened. It doesn't seem like the sort of thing Greg's been likely to confirm on this site in the past. (I always sort of wonder if someone at Disney is reading this, and if so, if they're freaking out now...)
Kaylle
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 11:16:52 am EDT from 216.68.11.254

Despite the eyebrow raising, the question(s) on my mind is, was she wearing the Eye when he was conceived? Or he is growing faster just because of his magical background? Are Alex or Fox immortal?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Whenever you set out to do something, something else must be done first.
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 11:15:53 am EDT from 159.240.11.254

finally finished him but i really want to make him more life like, something like the vampires in underworld or the hulk in his movie. Just not sure how. Would I make him with human skin, pores and all that. If anyone knows a way to get a hold of the artist that do the art for the gargoyles and can give them my yahoo or aol, they are both snake85027
http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l74/spawn85027/?action=view&current=postgoliath-1.jpg
david - [snake85027 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 11:15:25 am EDT from 72.208.110.73

Fox and Xanatos engaging in pre-marital sex: Um... why did this raise so many eyebrows for people? I guarantee you that the night he proposed was probably not even the first night they had sex. They most likely weren't each other's firsts either. Probably not even seconds, thirds, or... you get the idea.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 10:02:01 am EDT from 75.56.245.4

Fox & Xanatos' pre-marital relationship wouldnt be a suprise at all if u assume that She got a normal 9 month of pregnancy,plus the scenes see and guess from the show,its quite obvious.
Anonymous
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 9:51:28 am EDT from 220.131.122.183

Oops. Sorry for the double post.

Zafiro/Una> If Una's hooves are made of the same material normal gargoyle claws are, I don't really see a problem. She could just jam her hoof tips into the wall she was climbing or wedge them in existing cracks/seams.

In the trees, Zafiro wouldn't have a problem and would actually be a great climber, using his body and tail the way a snake does in addition to his arms. The scales he has would help him climb any surface, and if he's fully scaled he wouldn't even need to wrap around things necessarily or have much of a problem with buildings.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 9:05:03 am EDT from 199.38.51.134

Rebel> I think, if I'm understanding correctly, the blue text that said all the London clan would be lion/gryphon/unicorn-based is not confirmed. The white text stating that they'd all look like animals in heraldry is, so don't worry. We haven't seen all there is to see of them. Greg has been careful not to describe the rest of the clan in detail to avoid tying the artists' hands in the future.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 8:52:41 am EDT from 199.38.51.134

I don't know if this is customary or not, but I wanted to post this comment I made from last week just to be sure that anyone who might want to share their thoughts sees it:

"
Also...I just read a comment below that sparked my interest to go and read about the London Clan in the gargwiki...and was surprised to find that it does indeed say that they will all look like unicorns, lions, or griffins. I'm shocked! So it is certain that no other heraldic animals will be seen in this clan? That's disappointing...there are plenty of other heraldic beasts including boars, stags, wolves, dragons, phoenixes, etc., that would be very interesting to see. Will none of these animals be represented?"

And for the record I'm still looking for the Marvel Gargoyles issues 6, 8, and 9.

Re: Alex> I wouldn't be surprised if the Eye of Odin has affected him somehow. But, as he grows older, it would probably be difficult to tell whether any "effects" he is exhibiting are because of his Third Race blood or because of the eye.

Re: Una and Zafiro> Yeah, that's something that I've wondered too. But I like Greg's quote "And you find uses for what you've got"...having a different body part to another gargoyle might be a disadvantage in one area, but it probably gives you advantages in other areas. I've also wondered the same things about Lex from time to time. For example, if Lex and Bronx were stranded somewhere, anyone else in the clan could get them both home, but what would Lex do? Have him ride on his back? Also, back in one of the early episodes when Lex is trying to ride that guy's bike, it seems like his arms (and by default, his wings) make it nearly impossible for him to ride it because of wind resistance. But all the same, Lex is one of the fastest, most agile members of the clan.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 8:04:46 am EDT from 24.227.200.138

Xanatos and Fox had pre-marital relations? Ohnoes! Don't tell me Elisa's not still a virgin, either! :P

270 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Shall we shag now or shag later?" - Austin Powers
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 7:05:03 am EDT from 76.205.97.110

And as far as Alex's conception is concerned, it really doesn't come as much of a shock. What I'm wondering now was if the Eye of Odin might have had any effect on him, or if it was too early in the pregnancy for that.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Cunnilingus and psychiatry brought us to this." -Tony Soprano
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 6:52:49 am EDT from 71.62.204.109

Was 10 hit yet?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Cunnilingus and psychiatry brought us to this." -Tony Soprano
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 6:50:47 am EDT from 71.62.204.109

Jurgan> Agreed. I was surprised by it too. If Fox became pregnant that night, then he was also in the womb during the whole Eye of the Beholder debacle! But yeah, the real surprise is the pre-marital thing.

Audra> I asked Greg about that a while back:

matt writes...
would Zafiro and Una 's lack of claws on their feet cause them to have alot of trouble climbing walls/cliffs? if not, is it because gargoyles mainly use their arms when climbing a wall/cliff?

Greg responds...
You use what you've got. And you find uses for what you've got.

Response recorded on March 29, 2001

I guess we are still waiting on Number 10...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 6:47:26 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

From this day in Gargoyles:

"Xanatos proposes to Fox and gives her the Eye of Odin as an engagement gift. She accepts both his proposal and the Eye. Alexander Fox Xanatos is most likely conceived on this night."

Wow. That's a bit more forthcoming than Greg's been in the past about their relationship. Not that I really doubted it, but usually he's been pretty evasive on the topic of pre-marital relations.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"You're so beautiful when you hate the world." -Zuko, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 6:09:27 am EDT from 68.58.254.103

NINTH!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 5:54:01 am EDT from 24.207.163.239

8, I guess. Wow, it's crawling this morning.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"You're so beautiful when you hate the world." -Zuko, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 5:16:15 am EDT from 68.58.254.103

Seventh!!!

(Wow . . . this Top 10 thing IS getting kinda slow . . .)
Phoenician - [<---My Kinda Useless Blog]
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 3:56:53 am EDT from 157.242.209.205

6th.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 3:02:41 am EDT from 12.75.84.76

5th~! ^_^
The One Known As Mochi - [rolandsteinert at hotmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>O.o)>
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 1:10:08 am EDT from 72.199.226.114

Since some of you brought up the London Clan in last week's comments, I thought of a question about Una. (I even watched M.I.A. last night!) Can Una use her feet to climb up stone and steel walls? She can obviously use her clawed hands like other gargoyles... But can she not use her feet? (Unlike most of the other gargoyles, she has hooves instead of clawed feet) That image seems kind of funny in my mind... Her climbing up something but her feet just dangling as she climbs. :p Well then I guess the same question could be asked for Zafiro as well... I mean I just thought of him while thinking of the possibility if Una can or can not use her feet to climb. But for some reason, it doesn't seem that weird to me to picture Zafiro climbing without using legs, well because he doesn't have any legs. And now that I thought of it, even if Una couldn't puncture stone/steel with her hooves as she climbs, I suppose she probably still puts her hooves against it as she climbs instead of just having her legs dangle. (Just like humans do) What do you guys think?
Audra - [birdygirl85 at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 12:44:01 am EDT from 70.56.28.220

Third!

You know, there are few things more disconcerting than hearing Goliath defining the term "FUBAR".
Spen
"Isn't it satisfying to watch your child grow up from a tiny little acorn into a complete nut?" - George Pickard
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 12:40:01 am EDT from 66.43.205.110

2nd woot!
dan
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 12:33:04 am EDT from 64.12.117.134

1st?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Oct 1, 2007 12:12:38 am EDT from 216.96.23.152