Kerry: Quite possibly. But it was to be expected. It's not the funniest thing I've ever done. Ironically, I was chatting with a friend who's on ED fairly religiously, and she told me she didn't think the article was mean enough for ED Standards. I still have a rough copy saved on the hard drive, though.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I can dream up schemes when I'm sitting in my seat. I don't see any flaws till I get to my feet." -The Police ("Darkness")
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 11:17:37 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

so Siren you ever going to hop on Yahoo? you added me a few days ago then like nothing....
Justin - [jlindley07 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 10:21:44 pm EST from 74.135.61.121

Um, did someone take it down? The page I get says there's no text on it.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 9:59:22 pm EST from 24.98.74.35

I was sure you weren't insulting the mentally handicapped. I just wanted to be sure is all.

I hear Jonny is an actual poster though. The only reason I doubt it is that he only talks pretty much about getting his favorite shows on DVD. Doesn't talk about anything else such as the content of the show like characters/dialogue/episodes.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 8:46:31 pm EST from 71.115.192.199

Again, I don't think I was implying that the mentally handicapped are evil people. Simply that Jonny is a moron.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"When angels are forced out of heaven, they become devils. You agree, don't you, Spike?" -Vicious.
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 7:14:50 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

I don't believe he is mentally handicapped. I truly don't. I do just think he's a troll or just very stupid and ignorant.

On that note, I know several mentally handicapped people, some within my family. There are degrees of it, depending on the person. None of them are stupid, malicious, etc. Some have bad memories and some can't process thoughts the same way other people can. Just like everyone else, they have strength and weaknesses. Doesn't make them less of a person. Jonny on the other hand is a full out troll. The only thing handicapped about him is his lack of respect and joy he gets from harassing Greg and us.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 6:47:36 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

Antiyonder: Only thing I meant to imply is that Jonny's a moron. Read a few more ED articles, you'll see that that's pretty much the normal style for them.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"When angels are forced out of heaven, they become devils. You agree, don't you, Spike?" -Vicious.
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 6:41:58 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Suggesting that Modlin has low intelligence is giving him far too much credit. I think it's clear that he's an intentionally malicious troll.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 6:03:22 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

I certainly hope I'm missing the context of your joke towards Jonny. Because I happen to be mentally handicapped and I understand sarcasm pretty well. Plus I do not spam.

I'm sure you're joking anyway, but I hope those of you here don't think all mentally handicapped individuals are like Jonny.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 5:39:55 pm EST from 74.61.186.169

I came in to drop this off. I've now immortalized Jonny Modlin:

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Jonny_modlin

I'm not happy with a few of the word choices in it, but I wanted it to sound like an actual Encyclopedia Dramatica article. It's also still a work in progress, so I'll be expanding on it once I figure out how.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"When angels are forced out of heaven, they become devils. You agree, don't you, Spike?" -Vicious.
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 4:04:23 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Bob> there are two reasons I can think of for why both series cost $3.50, despite one being in color and the other is B&W. 1) SLG is independent and does not have advertisements, at least not the kind and amount you would expect in a DC or Marvel comic. Having those advertisements, just like in magazines and TV, helps pay for production costs because the advertisers are like sponsors, paying to have the advertisement place in the midst of the story medium. SLG doesn't, for a number of reasons I'm sure, so it has to consider that in its production costs.

2) The license from Disney. And I'm under the impression that this license is expensive. SLG paid to get the right to create and publish these stories. That's one more thing to add into the production costs, because they have to get some of that back.

B&W> One thing I keep in mind in regards to the color issue is artist/creative choice. If I recall, Hitchcock could have done "Psycho" in color, but chose to do it in B&W. Anyone who's seen the remake --which I'll admit I'm not one -- can tell you color didn't really add anything. And for those who want to colorize something where the B&W was the only option, I'm for it if they do a good job and have an option to see the original. If it sucks, whoo boy! It'll turn me off more than anything. In this case, with Bad Guys, it's going to be done in B&W partially because that's what SLG does most of its titles in, so it's easier and probably less expensive (see above for my thoughts on costs). And I've seen a few samples of the art by Karine, and I think it looks great. Making it in color is not really going to add too much to it.
Asatira
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 3:49:12 pm EST from 97.82.58.208

Well, most artworks are outdated. Should we shave 20 pounds off the Mona Lisa and give her a new wardrobe, lip piercing and a cup of Espresso?

Any movie is indicative of its time period. Movies that come out today depict the cultural norms of today, so that fifty years from now, some of them will appear dated. I've never let the smoking and sexism bother me in old movies, because the stories are still entertaining.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"When angels are forced out of heaven, they become devils. You agree, don't you, Spike?" -Vicious.
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 2:48:30 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Battlebeast- you've seen all 10,000 of these movies? That's quite a feat...

I don't like many of the older movies, not because they're black and white, but because I find them to be incredibally outdated and hokey. I can't connect to people in those movies because we don't talk like that anymore and many have sexist and racist conotations. It's interesting sometimes to see how people viewed life in those days, but it's just not my forte.
Why is it such a bad thing if some people don't like these certain types of movies? There are tons of color movies that I can't stand. Sorry for not thinking that we all have to like the same things.

And Matt's right, the majority of black and white movies are black and white because that was the only technology available and the filmakers had to work with what they had to the fullest extent.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 2:06:37 pm EST from 64.148.16.207

CASABLANCA and IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE DO NOT repeat DO NOT look better colorized.

And if you "can't stand" older movies, if you'll only watch them in color, then you are missing out on about 10,000 terrific films.

Casablanca in Color? that would totally ruin the mood of the final scenes.

I can't imagine watching it in Color...

and if I have to pay the same price for Bad Guys as I do for Gargoyles, so be it. I am buying two copies of it as well as Gargoyles, supporting the fandom. AND I will buy the trade paperback, too. If the comic was $10 I'd still buy it.
Battle Beast - [wlukinuk at telus dot net]
For California... Let there be rain...
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 1:45:13 pm EST from 198.53.239.8

$3.50 is expensive? It won't even get you a large coffee at Starbucks.

222 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"God dammit, Loch Ness Monster, I ain't gonna give you no tree fiddy!" - South Park
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 12:13:46 pm EST from 76.205.97.110

does anyone know why Bad Guys is $3.50 when the last few gargoyle comics were $3.50 and they were in color. That seems expensive for a black and white comic. That dosen't make sense, inflation isn't going up that fast.
bob
bob
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 10:16:34 am EST from 66.202.98.231

But what about colorized remakes of old B&W movies? Some of them (couchcoughPsychocough) turned out badly, although the originals were and are classics.

Does such a failure downplay the quality of the original film?
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 9:23:39 am EST from 76.247.68.211

Justin> "A project's color palette, be in a live action film, animated feature, a comic book or heck, even a painting... is a well thought out, hand crafted process by the director, art director, painter... whatever."

-Or maybe they are simply limited by by what is available at the time. Thousands of years ago, some human painting a cave wall in France or wherever doubtfully thought to himself, "Ya know, I could paint this wooly mammoth in 3D or interactive internet-based animation, but I think the art best represents my intent in a simple drawing using only basic nature-derived paints."
I find it highly likely that if filming in color had been an option, or at least an economic option, at the time when some of these classic B&W movies were produced that then some of them at least would've been made in color. You shouldn't make it seem like every single B&W film was B&W because the directors or whoever CHOSE that medium. Now, had some of these films been made in color I'm sure they'd be very different films today, but my point is in making these films, or paintings or whatever, that artists are limited by the technology they possess, not simply what they feel is the right look for their work.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 8:32:22 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Matt: I take your point, but I'm not really sure if the overall pace is really any faster than it would otherwise have been, or if it just seems that way because the universe is so large and moving at such high speed since "Hunter's Moon". I think this shift in balance to the broader ensemble is something that had a precedent in (TGC's) "The Journey" (and even the back nine of Season 2) and while naturally the comic allows for more characters without extra costs incurred, I expect the show would have got by, as it already did, by utilising the versatility of the existing voice cast. In #3-5, the prominent back-up cast were balanced out by a smaller proportion of scenes given to the leads, especially Goliath. Taken out of its context, the actual Thailog narrative is fairly thin by the standards of previous episodic villains -- two ambushes and a twist ending. It's the diverse sub-plots, particularly the ones with Elisa and Xanatos, which glue the story together. I'm not disagreeing that Greg's doing a great job keeping all the balls in the air, and maybe the comic offers him a little more leeway to show things that otherwise might have been cut, but 'Gargoyles' was always an extremely tight show, and so naturally the comic based off it is very tight also.
Ed
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 7:11:27 am EST from 213.187.38.190

sorry for the double post but Im just Justin
Justin - [jlindley07 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 1:27:53 am EST from 74.135.61.121

Oh crap, I'm an idiot. Bob said "I intend to find out." in the opening for the first two seasons. How could I forget about that. Heh. Still... that line doesn't strike me as quintessentially 'Reboot'...

"This is bad." or "I don't think so." might be more recognizable. But HoE's works too. :P Even though it's pretty paraphrased. Personally, my favourite's are 'now it is my turn to rattle your bones!' and 'Propaganda! Used correctly it could be as deadly as any weapon in my arsenal.'

As for the issue of colorization. There's good colorization and bad colorization. Just like anything else. Personally, when I watched the original seasons of Bewitched, I didn't mind the colour so much. (Endora's hair was kinda glaring...) but then I guess the cinematography wasn't exactly a major focus in that show.
Aldrius
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 12:40:24 am EST from 64.56.231.9

If I may throw in my 2 cents on the colorization of art vs. leaving it Black and White issue.

Largely, I agree with most points made in here in one form or another...

I am an animation major in Chicago, and have also studied quite a bit in San Francisco, CA.

Greg B> I whole heartedly agree with you on colorizing a work, when it was set out from the get go in b and w. It is wrong to take an artist's concept, generations later and some how "alter" it for the palettes of a younger audience. I completely agree.

Tony> I agree with from the stand point of what jumps out at you as more aesthetically pleasing. If colored works catch your eye to a greater degree then more power to you. But to add a little to what Greg pointed out. A project's color palette, be in a live action film, animated feature, a comic book or heck, even a painting... is a well thought out, hand crafted process by the director, art director, painter... whatever.


To site an example of another Disney property.. Beauty and the Beast...

The Art Director on the film expressed that the stylization and color scheme were plotted out for years and said that just decided the right type of royal purple for the film, and how the light hit it and so on took six months. Thats six months for ONE COLOR. Let alone everything else that you must build from the ground up.

But as I said, I can see both sides to this argument. Although being a student of the entertainment arts myself, I tend to lean more towards Greg B on this one.
JustinIf - [jlindley07 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 18, 2007 12:33:18 am EST from 74.135.61.121

Yeah, "Bone" rocks and its black and white.

Ed> "If 3 issues covers roughly as much ground as 1 episode, we're looking at the equivalent of 4 episodes in the next year. It would take until about 2025 to cover the original series at this pace, and we know Greg's plans are vast in scope."

-That is true, but something I've noticed about the comics is that while they contain one story in 2-3 issues, they seem to contain more character building in those issues than a single episode would. Because you don't have to pay for many different voice actors in the comics you can have huge and diverse casts in these stories. Look how many characters (new and recurring) that occured in Issue #3. And each character takes at least a small step forward in their development. So really, I think the comics are moving forward with characters at a pretty good pace.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 10:16:35 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I <3 THEM! I love that movie! I love a lot of those giant monster flicks from back then
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 9:19:06 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

patrick-I'm well aware of that. I know it's supposed to be that way since it's supposed to be a metaphor for the drab way of life outside of oz. If you ever read the book you'll see that color is a very important element to the story. and in almost all illustrated text of the story the parts in kansas are drawn in only black and white.

anyway, what's with all the color bashing? I'm an artist. Color is very important in depicting mood and emotion in art pieces. There are those artists that only use black and white tones and that's fine, and if those are done right the end result can be beautiful. My personal preference is art that's in color (movies included), and that's just my preference. That's the thing about art though-you don't have to like it to call it art. Just because I don't like one art form as much as another doesn't make me uncivilized or whatever.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 8:41:47 pm EST from 64.148.16.207

I'm kind of the opposite way in that I'd like to see b&w used more often in film and television. There are a few modern films that have been shot in B&W, not sure about television series. Won't suit everything, of course, but it seems like a mode of telling stories as legitimate as cel animation or CGI or what have you.

And personally, many of my favourite films are black and white. 'Goodbye Mr Chips', 'Mr Smith Goes to Washington', 'Night of the Hunter', 'It's A Wonderful Life', 'Psycho', 'Rebecca', 'Citizen Kane', 'Arsenic and Old Lace', the Marx Brothers films, 'Rashomon', 'The Day the Earth Stood Still', 'Nosferatu' etc. etc.

Having said that, I would prefer 'Bad Guys' in colour. 'Gargoyles' was in colour, and colours were important to the world. They brought it alive, gave it a sense of richness and warmth -- something that seems like it would be more important in 'Bad Guys' where the characters are less intrinsically sympathetic. It seems clear that the choice to make the comic B&W is economic and not creative and while that's not to say that economic decisions can't be strong creative ones too, it's not an ideal situation. 'Bone' has been colourised to tremendous effect, of course, but that wasn't shaded as I gather this comic will be.

Ultimately though, I just want to see more stories. If 3 issues covers roughly as much ground as 1 episode, we're looking at the equivalent of 4 episodes in the next year. It would take until about 2025 to cover the original series at this pace, and we know Greg's plans are vast in scope. I'm not complaining -- 12 issues a year is great. It's fantastic. And if doing it shaded makes it more profitable, ups the chances of more comics, more stories, then bring it on. Greg and these artists are creative professionals who will no doubt rock this medium like they rocked colour comics and animation.
Ed
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 8:27:44 pm EST from 213.187.38.190

Actually I was born in Kansas and all my memories are in sepia-tone.
t-o-n-WHY - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Dwight will be driving me deep into the Pennsylvania wilderness, where he will then leave me. To either die, or to survive. The choice is yours.
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 8:16:56 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

"And I don't think I'de want to see "the wizard of oz" in black and white."

I wouldn't want to see the sepia-tone opening and closing portions of "The Wizard of Oz" colorized because that would be totally destroying a key artistic element of the film. I've ran into so many people who think that only the Oz portion of the film was done in color because filming in color was expensive and the makers of the film could only afford so much. It's true filming in color wasn't cheap in the 1930s, but that's NOT why the Kansas scenes were done in sepia-tone. It was done for mood and atmosphere, and to make Oz stand out in contrast.

I've never been a fan of colorizing old movies because doing so obliterates so much of the artistry that black and white filmmakers used to compensate for the limitations of the medium. No one overdubs voices on silent movies and re-releases them as a "better" version, but a lot of folks have made plenty themselves plenty of money slapping color on films that were never intended to be view in color. As much as I loath remakes, too, I'd rather see a classic film "re-envisioned" than see Ted Turner treat it like Bob Ross with a blank canvas.

223 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"There's no need to be nice on the way up, 'cause you're not coming down." - Genesis, "Paperlate"
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 7:41:57 pm EST from 76.205.97.110

purplegoldfish> 'I don't particularly care for many of those older movies.'

With the exception of 1960's 'Psycho', I agree.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 6:45:50 pm EST from 76.247.68.211

frankly, I can't stand "it's a wonderful life" with or without color, and I don't particularly care for many of those older movies. I agree that those movies are art forms and very important to our culture. It is kind of silly to colorize them I guess, but if the originals are still available in black and white, I don't see the big deal. Like it or not, colored versions are sometimes the only way to get some people to watch the classics-maybe it's a bit ignorant but it's their preference, and it's available. And I don't think I'de want to see "the wizard of oz" in black and white. The story is meant to be seen in color-colors are described in detail in the book are very important to the story.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 6:11:31 pm EST from 64.148.16.207

But neither Curt nor Willard were in ReBoot, nor did anybody say those sentences.
Anonymous
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 5:49:10 pm EST from 87.123.124.129

No. "This is bad" is a cliche. Here's my idea of a famous line:

Kurtz: "Are you an assassin?"
Willard: "I'm a soldier."
Kurtz: "You're neither. You're an errand boy, sent here by grocery clerks, to collect the bill."

I'm sure I'll come up with some more later.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"When angels are forced out of heaven, they become devils. You agree, don't you, Spike?" -Vicious.
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 5:39:47 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

I think Bob said that line, but I wouldn't call it famous. Famous would be something like: "This is bad. This is very bad".
Anonymous
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 5:20:59 pm EST from 87.123.124.129

"Are you paraphrasing a famous line from Reboot?"

Famous line...?
Aldrius
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 3:12:20 pm EST from 64.56.231.9

Indeed. It helps that biology is a science and art is a taste. I'm not saying personal attacks during biology discussions arn't possible, just that I would think they are rarer due to science being about facts and personal taste being about personal opinions.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 1:54:46 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

You are entirely entitled to get passionate about film, but I don't believe that Matt or Kerry or I ever made personal attacks on anyone in the name of Biology. If I did, I sincerely apologize.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 1:47:49 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

Oh, and speaking of movies: Happy 65th to a true film god, Mr. Martin Scorsese.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"If you love someone, you have to trust them, there's just no other way. You need to give them the key to everything that's yours. Otherwise, what's the point?" -Sam "Ace" Rothstein ("Casino")
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 12:32:58 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Greg B> "But yeah, I do see it as vandalism, as painting a hot pink mustache on the Mona Lisa."

-But see, thats not a good analogy of what Tony was talking about at all. If he was saying lets take Casablanca and colorize it and destroy the b&w copies, yeah thats destroying art. But I think he's saying it's cool to keep the original version, but he wants to see an alternate. I have a hard time finding an issue with that. If people want to vandalize or modify the existing original Mona Lisa, tats not good. But there are millions of scans, knock-offs and prints of the Mona Lisa around the world and people modify them all the time, often with hilarious results. I can recall the same thing with the David statue. People have it as a refridgerator magnet that allow people to choose and change his magnetic wardrobe, which is fun, but anyone who actually wants to play dress-up with the real statue is nuts. I think he looks fantastic as is.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 12:01:04 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Indeed. I haven't purchased anything in the Pan and Scan format in almost ten years. Thankfully, most people in my family know not to buy Fullscreen for me. At least, I think they do. My brother definitely knows, but he and I have the same wavelength when it comes to movies.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"You don't think I'm sarcastic, do you?"
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 11:59:15 am EST from 71.62.198.251

Okay, honesty time. I was a little drunk when I posted last night. I'll make sure that never happens again.
Greg Bishansky
"Well, you could make a case that the world has already ended. That art is dead. That we're exhausted. That instead of art, we have… pop culture, daytime TV, gay senior citizens, women that have been raped by their dentists, confiding in Oprah. An exploration in depth of why women cut off their husband's penis."
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 11:51:30 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Tony> Now, see, I completely agree with you on Fullscreen vs. Widescreen. My cinematography teacher went on a half hour rant about how who ever came up with PAN & SCAN should be shot ;)
Greg Bishansky
"Well, you could make a case that the world has already ended. That art is dead. That we're exhausted. That instead of art, we have… pop culture, daytime TV, gay senior citizens, women that have been raped by their dentists, confiding in Oprah. An exploration in depth of why women cut off their husband's penis."
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 11:41:04 am EST from 75.56.245.4

What everyone has said below is true. Just as some would prefer to watch a color film vs. a b&w one, some people prefer full screen to wide screen. A movie is presented in wide screen and I believe is destroyed when displayed in full screen. It was shot in wide screen and should be displayed in wide screen when viewed. But if people choose to watch full screen, the only thing I can do is educated them and tell them that you see 33% more of the picture. but some people still own full screen tvs and don't like seeing black bars. But like it has been said, everyone has a choice, whether as dumb the decision the other person is making from your point of view appears to be.
t-o-n-WHY - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Dwight will be driving me deep into the Pennsylvania wilderness, where he will then leave me. To either die, or to survive. The choice is yours.
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 11:36:03 am EST from 70.15.84.29

I really was not trying to flame him, I did think he was joking at first. But yeah, I do see it as vandalism, as painting a hot pink mustache on the Mona Lisa. Thing is, I am in film school in the heart of Hollywood. I am learning from professionals. And I don't mean people who worked on an independent film you've never heard of, I mean people who have resumes so impressive, you've heard of most of their work. The head of the school was the 1st A.D. on "The Spy Who Loved Me"; my Career Development Adviser, April Lawrence, was a producer and editor on "The Sopranos".

Am I passionate about film? Yes. It is my chosen career. Hell, it's really more of a chosen lifestyle. We are being taught to respect, appreciate and revere the greats. Maybe you'd need to be out here taking classes and trying to get into this industry to understand, but yeah, this is not worth arguing about.

Still, he's allowed his opinion, I guess. But, really, in my opinion... that is the way those movies were made. It is the way they were shot. If you can't watch them the way they were meant to be seen, you probably should not be watching them at all.

I'm sorry, but, well, the way a lot of you get passionate whenever the subject of biology comes up in here and you fight to make your points because you are educated in that subject and it is something you care about. Well, that's how I feel about the subject of film.

I'm sorry if I went a little overboard, but this is a subject I care about.
Greg Bishansky
"Well, you could make a case that the world has already ended. That art is dead. That we're exhausted. That instead of art, we have… pop culture, daytime TV, gay senior citizens, women that have been raped by their dentists, confiding in Oprah. An exploration in depth of why women cut off their husband's penis."
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 11:13:13 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Like saying "No real actual human being would ever think that." That's personal.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 11:04:59 am EST from 209.162.56.40

Its not like they burn all the B&W copies and all we are left with is colorized. I prefer the original version, but the colored versions don't bother me. People are still left with a choice. No reason to get bent out of shape.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 10:42:51 am EST from 68.202.76.113

I agree. I don't condone colorizations (I've seen parts of "It's a Wonderful Life" in color, and not only was the color too saturated, it focuses your attention on all the wrong things in the scene), but if people want to like them, they have that right. I question their reasoning, but if someone wants to drink watered-down kerosene instead of cognac, I say let them. More good stuff for the rest of us. All the old movies are still being released on DVD in the original Black and White, anyway.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"At least the killing part appeals to you, doesn't it?" -Durandal
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 10:24:00 am EST from 71.62.198.251

It's not like those that prefer colorized versions or those that produce colorized versions are advocating destroying the original b&w versions. That would be a shame. If people want to watch an altered version of a movie, let them. They are not evil for wanting to do so. They are just people with preferences, and thats okay. You have a preference for b&w, and your right and desire to watch in b&w isn't threatened. So calm down. It's not the end of the world if Tony wants to watch in color and it certainly is not evil.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 9:29:43 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Greg B> I think you're a smart guy and I'm completely with you on black and white films not being colorized. Nut that being said, chill. It's one thing to say to another person "I disagree with your opinion, even strongly disagree with it, and here's why". It's something else entirely to say "No sane and rational person would ever say anything like that. What you're suggesting is EVIL." I agree that film is art and I agree that black and whie films are best seen in black and white. (My family once accidently rented a colorized version of "It's a Wonderful Life" and solved the problem by turning down the color on our TV.) But I also believe that people are entitled to their opinions and that colorization, while pretty abhorrent to me, is not an issue I feel is worth getting tremendously upset over. While I wish it didn't happen at all, I don't know of any instances where the original black and white version of a colorized film is not also available, or even more widely available than the colorzid version. From what I've seen, enthusiasm for the process has died down over the last few decades anyways. Does it bug me when someone says they prefer colorized films to black and white? Sure. If I'm in the mood, I'll try to put together a clear argument for why I prefer black and white. But if i tell the person who likes colorized films that their opinion is wrong and stupis and evil, I'm vcertainly not convincing them of anything. I'm only making my self feel a bt better or superior, which I could just as easily do without actually posting my thoughts.

Your opinions are generally backed by solid reasoning, but when you insult the person you're debating, all of your valid points go down the drain. I'm not saying you can't disagree with people, but I think you'll have more luck if you try to do it in a calmer, less emotional way.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 9:17:42 am EST from 209.6.249.41

The One Known As Mochi- I can sell you my copy of the misprinted #6... It would be kind of hard for me to get it traded in for the new one unless I ripped off the cover and sent it to SLG... But it would go to better use if it went to a fan. ^^ Just email me or something if you are still interested.
Audra - [birdygirl85 at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 4:46:29 am EST from 75.170.39.193

Tony> I am not trying to flame you, really I'm not. But, honestly... the movies were not designed that way. They were not shot that way. Cinematographers work hard to design how a movie looks. I've taken a few classes on it, I've seen how they do it. When a movie is colorized, it is not the cinematographers doing it. It is some jerk that the studio executives have hired. It's basically taking a painting and going over it with crayons.

Movies are art. Plain and simple. And, as someone who is currently starting a career in film, I find the notion that anyone could possibly support such vandalism, well, frankly I find it horrendous. It's like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa. It's like splashing paint on Michaelangelo's David.

You just don't do it. It is destructive. Frankly, it is evil.

How could you condone it? I am not trying to be mean, really I'm not. But, I find your statements and ideas on this to be, well, unfortunately, quite ignorant. When a movie was shot in black and white, the palette was designed for each and every shot for the best contrast you could get.

Artists like Gregg Toland, Arthur Edeson, Milton Krasner... artists like that who had a vision and worked very hard to make these films look terrific, who knew what they had to work with. Their work is being vandalized every single time some suit decides that modern audiences are too unsophisticated to sit through a movie that isn't in color.

I'm sorry, it just... I cannot possibly understand why anyone would want to see their hard work destroyed like that.

EVERYONE ELSE> For the record, I know Oz was never colorized. Sepia in Kansas, Color in Oz... that is the way it was shot.
Greg Bishansky
"Well, you could make a case that the world has already ended. That art is dead. That we're exhausted. That instead of art, we have… pop culture, daytime TV, gay senior citizens, women that have been raped by their dentists, confiding in Oprah. An exploration in depth of why women cut off their husband's penis."
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 4:08:35 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Sorry for the double post
The one movie that bothers me colorized is the 1951 version of "A Christmas Carol". As for TV shows, the early seasons of "I Dream Of Jeanie" and "Bewitched" actually don't look too bad colorized - and thankfully, the studios released them both ways on DVD.
Wingless
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 3:47:16 am EST from 99.245.254.123

Did I miss something? The Wizard of OZ was colorized? I don't think so, it was always in color(except the opening and closing segments in Kansas)
Wingless
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 3:41:42 am EST from 99.245.254.123

The notion of colorizing Casablanca -- have they ever really done that? -- is truly horrifying to me. I've seen both the colorized and b&w versions of Wonderful Life, and there is absolutely no doubt that the original is SO much better. I suppose that's just my humble opinion... and yet it seems SO objectively true to me that anyone who sat down and watched both would have to see that one version is elegant and emotionally true and the other is truly garish and looks vaguely like an old horror movie.

But as for Wizard of Oz... uh, guys... That was not colorized. The Kansas stuff was shot in Sepia. The Oz stuff in color. It was MADE that way. And I can't believe a b&w version exists. I mean, who would go back and blackandwhitize a color film? It just makes no sense. I suppose if someone (somewhere in the world) still owned a b&w tv, they could see it in b&w, but otherwise...
L. T. Williams
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 3:40:26 am EST from 68.183.95.134

I didn't know that about GL. It's funny that he led a crusade against colorization of films, but then continues to change his films whenever he wishes and changes what some would consider original art. I for one welcome the special editions from GL.

Of course I wouldn't want him to change the blacks to pinks, but from my point of view, I see color as an improvement over just plain black and white. If one has the ability to improve a black and white medium with some color, then I normally welcome the change.

Antiyonder mentioned Garfield. I collected Garfield B&W books, but then they changed the size of the actual books and put them in color. Sure it upset me and I stopped collecting, but I still love Garfield all the same.

So all in all, I'm really looking forward to Bad Guys no matter how it's presented, but if the powers that be choose to add color later on, in the TPB for example, then I would welcome it.
t-o-n-WHY - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Dwight will be driving me deep into the Pennsylvania wilderness, where he will then leave me. To either die, or to survive. The choice is yours.
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 3:22:28 am EST from 70.15.84.29

Tony> Holy, you were serious. I really thought you were kidding.

Look, I'm not going to go off, don't worry about that. But, really. Colorization of classic movies is, well... it's butchering art. It's vandalism. It really is. Hell, your hero, George Lucas, led a crusade against colorizing old movies.

Those movies were not filmed that way. They were not meant to be seen that way. And, well colorization just looks so artificial that it really does look like garbage. It just does.

Yes, we see lots of colors, but it doesn't make it worth it if the colors look terrible. Let's say in ten years, hot pink became the new "color personification of evil", would you want someone to go back and update Star Wars so Vader's uniform was hot pink? So Emperor Palpatine's robes were hot pink?
Greg Bishansky
"Well, you could make a case that the world has already ended. That art is dead. That we're exhausted. That instead of art, we have… pop culture, daytime TV, gay senior citizens, women that have been raped by their dentists, confiding in Oprah. An exploration in depth of why women cut off their husband's penis."
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 3:11:54 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Greg B> I'm sorry that I don't think the way you expect me to, but the eyes that God gave me have the ability to see in millions of colors. White is defined as the combination of all the colors and black is the absence of all color. If I could choose between gazing at a rainbow or looking at a cow, I choose the rainbow.
t-o-n-WHY - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Dwight will be driving me deep into the Pennsylvania wilderness, where he will then leave me. To either die, or to survive. The choice is yours.
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 3:01:52 am EST from 70.15.84.29

While I wouldn't mind seeing Bad Guys in color, The Garfield Comic Strips plus Marvel's Essential Line, DC's Showcase Presents and some of the mangas I've read got me use to the black and white format.

Plus I've seen a couple black & white shows myself.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 2:27:40 am EST from 71.115.218.238

TinyTony"Harvester of Eyes> I agree but some movies did look better colorized like "It's a Wonderful Life.", "Casablanca" and to a lesser extent, "The Wizard of Oz"."

LOL, that's funny. Good joke. I nearly fell for it, but then I remembered that no real human being could think something like that. Kudos. You almost had me pissed off and everything.

;)
Greg Bishansky
"Well, you could make a case that the world has already ended. That art is dead. That we're exhausted. That instead of art, we have… pop culture, daytime TV, gay senior citizens, women that have been raped by their dentists, confiding in Oprah. An exploration in depth of why women cut off their husband's penis."
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 12:59:37 am EST from 75.56.245.4

TiniTinyTony - Opening lines for seasons 1 & 2 - "They say the user inputs games for . . " . . "No one knows for sure, but I intend to find out. Reboot". I know a spot where you can watch every episode of Reboot for free.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sat, Nov 17, 2007 12:25:52 am EST from 71.29.242.171

_
t-o-n-WHY - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Dwight will be driving me deep into the Pennsylvania wilderness, where he will then leave me. To either die, or to survive. The choice is yours.
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 11:45:05 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

dph_of_rules> Close! I did love Reboot, but the only quote I can spout out for you is "Incoming Game, Incoming Game".
The One Known As Mochi> I have a copy with the errors, but I'm waiting to hear from my comic guy about getting a refund for it. If I don't then I'll sell it to you or throw it on eBay.
Greg Bishansky> No offense taken. Once I see it maybe I'll get over it.
Harvester of Eyes> I agree but some movies did look better colorized like "It's a Wonderful Life.", "Casablanca" and to a lesser extent, "The Wizard of Oz".
I loved Clerks and it wouldn't look right colorized. Especially since the "feel" you're supposed to get was that the movie was shot from the security cameras of the stores.
So again, I will wait and see and hope for the best.
t-o-n-WHY - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Dwight will be driving me deep into the Pennsylvania wilderness, where he will then leave me. To either die, or to survive. The choice is yours.
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 11:43:58 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

Tony: There's plenty of great things out there in black and white. Case in point, I just saw the movie "The Man Who Wasn't There." Wasn't crazy about the story, but I loved the style they told it in. I'd hate to see it ever colorized. In fact, I'd hate to see lots of things in black and white colorized, and it sickens me whenever I hear about it being done.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"At least the killing part appeals to you, doesn't it?" -Durandal
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 10:40:27 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Vaevictis> Perhaps so.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 10:39:45 pm EST from 24.98.74.35

Tony> No offense, but you need to get over this black and white thing. "Bad Guys" is being drawn, inked and toned for black and white. The book is designed that way. It's not just outlines like a coloring book, you really can't go back and color it after that.
Greg Bishansky
"Well, you could make a case that the world has already ended. That art is dead. That we're exhausted. That instead of art, we have… pop culture, daytime TV, gay senior citizens, women that have been raped by their dentists, confiding in Oprah. An exploration in depth of why women cut off their husband's penis."
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 10:28:41 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

Can't wait to get the trade collection. Honestly, I can't complain about losing pages for extras, just as long as something is in there. I hope there's more in the second one though! :D

By the way, if anyone has extra copies of issue #6 (with the production errors), please contact me! I would like to have a copy of it since I don't have issue #6 (both with and without errors) yet... :)
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Homework = WTF...
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 10:26:46 pm EST from 72.199.225.9

Tony> I don't think BG, if collected in a trade, is going to be in color. It was intended to be in B&W, and such a change would seriously affect the art (namely, making more work) and up the potential price.
Asatira
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 9:28:00 pm EST from 97.82.58.208

Kerry >> Interesting stuff. Gargoyle wings are definately flexible but I wonder if they need to be as sensitive as bat wing skin, since gargoyles don't have to adjust the shape so much when just gliding, as opposed to flying. On the other hand, the more flexibility and sensitivity they have in the wings, the more they can make up for the inability to fly. Bats get less air pressure under their wings than birds due to the microscopic structure of feathers, but bats are more flexible on the wing than most birds (except hummingbirds) because their wings are so flexible.

Perhaps the skin in gargoyle wings is especially sensitive to heat, making it easier for them to sense updrafts.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 9:02:31 pm EST from 71.34.57.171

Wendy and Richard Pini are the creators of Elfquest, and yes, she was a guest at the Gathering 2006.



224 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"There's no need to be nice on the way up, 'cause you're not coming down." - Genesis, "Paperlate"
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 7:36:02 pm EST from 76.205.97.110

Didn't Wendy attend the 2006 Gathering in LA?

Anyways, I just emailed my order in for bg #1 since I'm convinced it will arrive Wednesday. The only question will be how to pick it up since right now we're having to share vehicles. If he gets a car fixed tomorrow, then the problem won't be so bad. The only problem is it might be safer for my brother to pick it up than me because I have this little problem of wanting to read the comic on the way home.

Matt - <Well Greg is all caught up again over at Ask Greg... ya know, after all these years, I love saying that. "Caught up AGAIN"!> I know what you mean. Did you notice Greg's last reply to Jonny Modlin?

TiniTinyTony - <"I don't know. But I'm going to find out."> Are you paraphrasing a famous line from Reboot?

starlioness - <I think Jonny Modlin should have an article on wikality> I have to agree.

PurpleGoldfish - Congrats on getting a driver's license.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 5:59:03 pm EST from 71.29.242.171

If the mini series is successful, I don't see why they wouldn't reprint. After all, a trade collecting a complete mini series as opposed to part of a series strikes me as a definate seller.

I almost think reprinting it in manga format would be appropriate as it will be in Black & White.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 5:16:11 pm EST from 71.115.192.199

Well Greg is all caught up again over at Ask Greg... ya know, after all these years, I love saying that. "Caught up AGAIN"! Good for you, Greg. Guess we'll reopen in a couple weeks, eh? Bad Guys #1!

What a great time to be a Gargoyles fan. Five or ten years ago would you ever have believed we'd not only be getting continuous stories from the Gargoyles series, but a spin-off to boot?! Pretty fun.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 4:40:16 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

That would be a neat extra.

Greg has emptied the questions queue. I hope Diamond didn't screw up and we get BG #1 next week and the queue reopens.

If BG is successful, will they print a trade paperback of all issues? And will it be in color in the TPB?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
First rule in road-side beet sales, put the most attractive beets on top. The ones that make you pull the car over and go, 'Wow. I need this beet right now.' Those are the money beets.
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 4:38:43 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

I wonder if the second trade might include the deleted page from Reunion. The scene Greg mentions where the mountain climbers come across The Yeti/Coldstone.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 3:31:37 pm EST from 71.115.192.199

Demonskrye> Makes Sense. Good point.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
First rule in road-side beet sales, put the most attractive beets on top. The ones that make you pull the car over and go, 'Wow. I need this beet right now.' Those are the money beets.
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 1:47:46 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

TTT> I believe Wendy and Greg are friends from conventions. And it's pretty standard practice to get someone who isn't involved with the production of a book - be it comic, prose, or otherwise - to write the forward. As comics go, writer and artist commentary is usually left for any behind the scenes bonus material (which we're unfortunately not getting this time around, but maybe in the next volume). The foreward is basicly a longer, more personal version or the back cover or inside flap blurbs you see on many books. So if it's one of the creators writing it, it risks sounding too much like "Wow, my own work is so great". Plus, having someone with their own following do you forrward can help to crosspromote the book. We might pick up a book we'd otherwise pass over if Greg Weisman wrote the forward. Likewise, a couple of ElfQuest fans may follow Ms. Pini over to "Gargoyles" and get hooked.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 12:23:52 pm EST from 209.6.249.41

I just got an email from SLG confirming that they have the reprinted Gargs comic. Just thought you all should know. Of course, you already do.
Wingless
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 12:11:14 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

In doing research about something else, I found out some things about bat wings. I know gargoyles are not bats, or even mammals, but some of the adaptations might be similar.

The flexibility of a bat's wing bones is due in part to two factors: composition of the cartilage and the cross-section of the finger bones. The closer the cartilage is to the tip of the wing finger, the less calcium and other minerals it contains, until at the tips there's little or none. This gives the joints a considerable range of motion. The bones themselves are flattened or elliptical in cross-section instead of round, giving them the ability to bend upward and downward farther without damage than more rounded bones could.

The membrane itself contains lots of Merkel cells, which are touch receptors in the skin that are common to all vertebrates. What's different about those in bats is that each has a hair in the middle, making them extremely sensitive to changes in the air flowing over the wing.

Which, if any, do you all think gargoyles may have developed? I know the bones of gargoyle wing fingers seem to be even more flexible than a bat's, but could they have a high percentage of hyaline cartilage (like what the tip of your nose is made of) at the ends of each bone that decreases in mineral content toward the ends (or just has a lower mineral content throughout)?
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 11:52:28 am EST from 199.38.51.134

Who's this Pini person anyway? Like I know who she is, but what relationship does she have with Greg or Gargoyles? Why didn't Greg or maybe one of the artists do a forward?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
"It's just been revoked." "I'll have what she's having!"
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 11:16:08 am EST from 159.240.11.254

Hey, we're getting a few pin-up postcards AND a foreword by Pini. I'm happy. I'm sure in the future, we'll be able to get more stuff.
Asatira
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 10:14:18 am EST from 131.204.97.9

Sorry for the double post, but two items on interest on Ask Greg today. First, the extras in the Gargoyles trade collection will be the pinup postcards of Goliath, Demona, and Hudson and three new pinups, plus a forward by Wendy Pini of ELFQUEST fame. Greg explains that format needs and other issues ate up some of the page count and made it pretty much impossible for them to do anything more substansial. Whatever. I'll still buy the trade and it's cool that there will be some new material.

Also, from TDiGUH:

" Meanwhile, Peter & Diane Maza confront Elisa about Derek Maza's disappearance. Elisa talks them out of filing a police report on her brother."

Anyone care to guess how she did that?
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 7:20:50 am EST from 209.6.249.41

DK2> That's the reason monopolies are trouble. SLG may well have paid for Diamond to do this exchange deal and to try to inform the retailers of the situation. And if it didn't happen in some or most cases, they may well be pretty upset. But in terms of actual actions they can take, their options are limited, because it's not llike they can really take their business elsewhere.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 7:14:05 am EST from 209.6.249.41

DK2> Actually, I'll get to have the corrected copies free of charge as long as I bring in the copies I have.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 4:08:28 am EST from 71.115.192.199

DK2> Two things:

1) I emailed SLG's Dan Vado and he said if you had to pay for it, he said to tear the cover off and mail it back to SLG and they'll give you back a copy free. Seems like alot to do for such a small thing.

- Actually, this is based on what book retailers often do about books they can't return (for whatever reason) to cut down the cost of postage of mailing the entire items. These 'stripped' books minus the front cover are then allowed to be disposed of. That's pretty standard in publishing, and in this case SLG may be using it to keep the covers on file and see how many people were affected while keeping people's shipping costs low.

2) We really shouldn't be paying for it again. Yet some of are you gladly paying for SLG's mistake.

- Agree here personally, but some people like me who were not able to get a copy the first time at least get a second chance to get a hold of one without a back issue fight (though I have decided I do want both Issue 6 and the trade collection due to added content the trade should have).
Shannon 'Shan' Muir
Shannon 'Shan' Muir
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 2:01:00 am EST from 205.188.117.134

I didn't buy my copy of the Gargoyles #6 reprint yet. It was in my reserve box but I explained the sitaution to my comic retailer and he was miffed that there was no info about it to him from Diamond, and that he got no credit for it. I emailed SLG's Dan Vado and he said if you had to pay for it, he said to tear the cover off and mail it back to SLG and they'll give you back a copy free. Seems like alot to do for such a small thing. Dan also said that they paid the shipping costs to Diamond to cover the issues distribution. He even said that they paid Diamond to email a letter or send a letter to all the retialers about the reprint issue. We really shouldn't be paying for it again. Yet some of are you gladly paying for SLG's mistake. My retailer said he'd get to his Diamond rep about it. He'd give it to me free 'cause he knows I did buy it before. But I didn't want to feel guilty and wanted to get info from Diamond about it. Maybe I can come up with a compromise on it. He thought maybe SLG was lying possibly. But who knows whats going on? The Transformers movie prequel comic earlier this year was the same thing and he swapped my copies for the corrected versions. Yet he told me Diamond didn't even give him back the credits on it either. Diamond sounds like they need to get their act together on how they deal with their retail clients.
DK2
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 1:14:25 am EST from 24.70.95.205

My comic store got some new copies in. I'll be trading my three copies tomorrow.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 16, 2007 12:26:21 am EST from 71.115.192.199

Gargoyles #6 appears to be available on SLG's site: http://www.slgcomic.com/product-exec/product_id/499/nm/Gargoyles_6
t-o-n-WHY - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Dwight will be driving me deep into the Pennsylvania wilderness, where he will then leave me. To either die, or to survive. The choice is yours.
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 11:53:21 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

I went to my comic book store today, and unfortunately Joe, the owner, wasn't there. His unknowledgable employee was there. So I just bought my reprint and left. What's my plan of action to get my money back?
t-o-n-WHY - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Dwight will be driving me deep into the Pennsylvania wilderness, where he will then leave me. To either die, or to survive. The choice is yours.
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 11:51:16 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

I am a lurker, but I was looking around the Ask Greg biology archive and came across this:

Hello. Uh, well, this is a bit embarrassing, but I was reading the questions and I got a bit curious. I'm sorry if this is inappropriate. I hope it's not. Anyway, how DO the gargoyles make love, to each other and possibly to humans? I suppose you were trying to keep things clean, huh? *blushes* Well, I'm sorry! I really wanted to know! If you'd prefer not to post it to the whole world but you'd also like to take pity on a poor curious fan, email me at "taesaki@att.net". Thankies! =)

Greg responds...
Well, I'm not going to go into X-rated (or even R-rated) details on this site. And, as I mentioned recently, I make a policy of not answering people directly off this site.

The short answer is that Gargs don't do anything much different from humans, except that they have an extra appendage, and wings, which allow them to make love in flight.

After that, I'd say, "Use your imagination."

So as per the recent conversation topic, i would take the response to mean that the basic mechanism of sex for both gargoyles and humans is very similar.

OK ... ::goes back to lurking:: ciao :-)
Anon
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 10:40:50 pm EST from 72.80.245.65

Discovered a comic shop near my new job in Glendale. They had Haunted Mansion 7 (which I got) so I knew they could get SLG titles. Have NEVER carried Gargoyles. Requested an attempt to special order Gargoyles 6 which will at least get it on their radar whether or not it works. Hopefully it does, and if so I'll see if they can get Gargoyles and Bad Guys more regularly (with hopes I stay both at this job and location!). If not at least they have been informed and I can order online.
Shannon 'Shan' Muir
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 10:10:50 pm EST from 216.9.250.112

Well, that was an interesting conversation. Getting kind of weird there at the end.

I got my copy of the reprint yesterday. Much better. I'll be dropping off the original tomorrow before I head home for break.
Asatira
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 7:44:18 pm EST from 68.119.80.156

Actually, most people have had their head in there before... only once though for most of us, I hope.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 6:59:25 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Rebel >> Wow... Never knew a human head could fit in there... Not that I'd want to see that happen... That's just...awkward... o.O''
The One Known As Mochi - [rolandsteinert at hotmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> And the homework comes flooding in like a tsunami...
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 6:47:37 pm EST from 72.199.225.9

Battle Beast> Interesting thought, but i kind of doubt it. Unless Greg is really concealing something from us, the Phoenix Gate's only remaining purpose storywise is to loop through time and space (physical space, not necessarily outer space) carrying Brooklyn and his various fellow trabellers. As far as the clan in modern times is concerned, Brooklyn disappears and returns moments later aged and with family in tow. That would only account for two time specific events in 1996. It could happen in the course of this storyline, but with everything that's already happening, I think it might be a bit much for one story arc. My guess is that the coming story is going to feature time as a very important factor, but not necessarily travel through it. We know from the issue synopses from Diamond Previews that Xanatos will eventually make a bid for possession of "the rock" during the day while they gargoyles are stone, so the specific time of sunrise and sunset may be a big deal here, It's also possible that events may be happening relatively concurrently, but it locales that are very far apart. Some of the witheld events are as little as a minute apart, so either things are happening very very fast, or we're seeing events happening in a lot of different places. I mean, who knows where Fox might be buying shoes?
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 6:45:31 pm EST from 209.6.249.41

At least, that's the hypothesis in the CR. We'll have to wait and see, of course.

I think I'll buy the reprint along with Bad Guys. I won't wait until #7 is out to buy them but I can wait two weeks longer to save some shipping.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 6:38:55 pm EST from 71.34.57.171

No, it's not. It's almost certainly Greg's story about the Stone of Destiny. The reason for the weird times in TDIGUH is because Greg is telling this story non-linearly.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 6:37:00 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I was reading the latest "This dy in..." and I saw a bunch of "withhelds". Does anyone else belive that this is Brooklyn's time dancing or something to do with the Phoenix gate jumping through time?

That was the first conclusion I got.
Battle Beast - [wlukinuk at telus dot net]
For California... Let there be rain...
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 6:30:05 pm EST from 198.53.239.8

Gargoyles' testicles could be internal.
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 5:51:38 pm EST from 75.142.107.43

Vaevictis Asmadi> SLG has it (they're shipping them out to stores afterall) they just haven't updated their website perhaps. You can always try contacting them directly. They're a small enough shop that you'll probably get in touch with a human and be able to get some info. Or you could search for local shops in your area that might carry it. Or you might search for other online retailers that might carry it.
Gorebash
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 4:30:44 pm EST from 207.206.239.1

heh well good thing goliath's got that prehensile tail ;) it seems that they would have to get pretty kinky, seeing as how old fashioned intercourse is out.

i think I'm going to buy bad guys, #7, and the #6 reprint all together. I can live without the reprint and bad guys for awhile
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 1:57:27 pm EST from 64.148.57.237

SLG still doesn't have it.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 1:45:51 pm EST from 71.34.57.171

Look at Ned & "Chuck" in Pushing Daisies. They can't even touch and they attempt to have a functioning relationship. And they have the proper equipment! It's just good television. There it is.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
"It's just been revoked."
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 11:17:52 am EST from 159.240.11.254

*facepalm*

Yes, things stretch. If they didn't, the human race would have ended before it began. And sure, some stretch more than others and those on the far end of the bell curve wind up on the internet. I'd caution the things you may have seen are not representative of the "normal" person.

Look, Greg said it probably wouldn't happen, so why is anyone even trying to make the case that it could? If anything it makes for a better story. It's one more hurdle, on top of many others, to overcome if their relationship is to last.
Gorebash
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 10:15:30 am EST from 207.206.239.1

I'm just a lurker. But I want to jump on this genetalia bandwagon while there's still a chance! Not quite penises, but it occured to me the other day that gargoyles would have small testicles. a) because they only need to be able to fertilize an egg about three times in their life so they don't need that large a supply b) secondly (and more importantly) since gargoyles mate for life as a natural construct of their species, sperm competition (which generally increases testicle size) is not a factor.

So there's my theory, and now that I've traumatized you all I'm off to more mundane things. (Don't you just wish I'd stayed a lurker?) :P
One Foot Forward
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 10:08:37 am EST from 99.246.67.240

Yes, it came out. Yes, I have a copy.
Greg Bishansky
"Well, you could make a case that the world has already ended. That art is dead. That we're exhausted. That instead of art, we have… pop culture, daytime TV, gay senior citizens, women that have been raped by their dentists, confiding in Oprah. An exploration in depth of why women cut off their husband's penis."
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 10:05:50 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Veteran's Day may have pushed the shipping of comics back a day in some areas. Back when I lived in Georgia for a while, our local comic store would get new books a day late on virtually every holiday week of any kind. (The proprieters were jerks also, and couldn't bother to tear themselves away from fantasy baseball long enough to tell their confused customers that comics had been delayed.) So it's entirely possible that some stores won't get their new comics shipments until today or tomorrow.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 9:56:26 am EST from 209.6.249.41

My comic book guy said yesterday that they only had the original copies in stock. However, he said they were supposed to get the reprint (among other things) in the mail yeasterday and didn't. He felt confident that the reprints would come in today or tomorrow and he'd call me when that happens.

I also think the withheld dates will end today or tomorrow. I think reason we are getting all these times of the day is because Greg is telling 7-9 nonlinearly.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 9:44:33 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Phoenician> I would think that the withhelds have taken us or will take us to Gargoyles #9 since Greg has told us that he has scripted up to then. I don't believe he would have time stamps for anything beyond that right now.

If I had to guess, the withhelds will probably be ending soon.

dph_of_rules> "I don't know. But I'm going to find out." Seriously, I'm going to see my comic guy today and I'll report back on my success or lack their of.

Can we get off the penis topic?
That's what she said. =O
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
"It's just been revoked." "I'll have what she's having!"
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 9:23:08 am EST from 159.240.11.254

Rebel> Hm. Hadn't thought about that, but if the stories I've heard about 2 liter bottles and pickle jars are true, then it would be entirely possible.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 8:50:10 am EST from 199.38.51.134

Stupid question: did the reprint of gargoyles issue #6 come out yesterday?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 8:49:45 am EST from 71.29.242.171

He did warn you ...
Christine - [christine at sabledrake dot com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 8:44:49 am EST from 70.56.94.10

*jaw drops*
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 8:23:11 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Hmmm. I don't get it. No matter how well-endowed Goliath is, with a little work Elisa ought to be able to "accommodate" him.

~*saying some gross things, prudes don't read*~



I have seen videos on the internet of women who can fit entire baseballs in their vaginas, or a man's fist, and one woman actually fit a man's head in (his head was shaved, luckily). These women were not pregnant or lactating, and had not recently given birth. They were just regular women who had worked on stretching out their vaginas. I imagine that Goliath and Elisa would be satisfied with simply "playing" with each other for a while, but I think eventually (assuming gargoyles have sex the way humans do) they would both crave intercourse. So even though she might not be able to fit Goliath initially, I think eventually Elisa could, if they really wanted to.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 1:59:27 am EST from 24.227.200.138

Random thought: How many issues, do you reckon, have we gone through after with the amount of "Withhelds" we've gotten so far on our lovely TDIGUH??
Phoenician - [<---My Kinda Useless Blog]
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 1:44:56 am EST from 157.242.216.60

thank you for the congratulations everyone!

lol okay the reproductive traits of the tapeworm is where I personally end the conversation
wow an awful lot of people in here know a whole lot about penises ;)
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 15, 2007 12:30:38 am EST from 64.148.57.237

HoE> You're right. In some circles, people feel that what we call an adult tapeworm should really be called a colony of those little segments and not a single organism.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 10:25:43 pm EST from 24.98.74.35

Ok Siren I added ya lol
Justin - [jlindley07 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 10:22:02 pm EST from 74.135.61.121

*imagines Greg W. reading this thinking "What the hell did I create? How did it go from gargoyles to tapeworms and double penises?"*
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 10:06:19 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

Vaevictus: If I remember my biology correctly, every segment of a tapeworm contains both male and female sex organs. At least on some of them
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"He's not really a doctor. He's a plastic surgeon. All he cares is your son looks good in his coffin." -House, MD
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 10:04:33 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

I was kinda saying that. When I mentioned humans of different sizes being able to bare healthy children. I wasn't disagreeing with you.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 10:03:58 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

HARVESTER >> It's only the marine flatworms that do that, I think tapeworms reproduce asexually from inside your intestines, or something.

SIREN >> I think that regardless of size, all gargoyles must be compatible with each other. It's the only thing that makes sense within a species. Reproductive compatibility is the main way to define a species. Having size discrepancies would be almost as impractical as having different males with different numbers of penises.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 9:57:31 pm EST from 63.225.147.85

Justin> My email is sirengarg@yahoo.com
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 9:38:35 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

This conversation about body parts must be fun... LOL
The One Known As Mochi - [rolandsteinert at hotmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> And the homework comes flooding in like a tsunami...
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 8:45:19 pm EST from 72.199.225.9

Vaevictis> You're right. I looked it up and he only mentions the tucked-in part, then directs the questioner to look up snake reproduction. I'd gotten confused.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 8:28:49 pm EST from 24.98.74.35

Male snakes and lizards have them, and sometimes they're barbed so the female can't change her mind once mating has commenced.

For those who want to learn something new: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemipenis

226 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"There's no need to be nice on the way up, 'cause you're not coming down." - Genesis, "Paperlate"
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 7:26:28 pm EST from 76.205.97.110

But penis talk is so much fun! It's just fun to say! :P

On the subject of a gargoyle of Goliath's size and one of Lexington's size having a hatchling: The body is a beautiful thing. Its amazing what it can do. I have heard several stories of dwarves having regular sized babies. Some of them were with a person of normal height and they had no problem with sex. Even when it was a normal sized man with a dwarf woman. (Maybe he was small in his own way, had to say it). If a dwarf can handle a normal sized baby that weighs 6-9lbs, then I would think a smaller gargoyle could handle the egg if they mated with a larger gargoyle.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 7:07:11 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

Great. Gone for two weeks and I come back to talk of Penis'. Great.
Battle Beast - [wlukinuk at telus dot net]
For California... Let there be rain...
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 6:38:41 pm EST from 198.53.239.8

Pity gargoyles don't have the reproductive capabilities of a tapeworm. Then their species wouldn't be so sparse.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"He's not really a doctor. He's a plastic surgeon. All he cares is your son looks good in his coffin." -House, MD
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 6:32:37 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

As Kerry said, plenty of animals (including birds, turtles, etc) mate by contacting their cloacas. And because a cloaca is the opening for the reproductive, digestive, and urinary systems, it is most certainly a reproductive feature.

On the other hand, flatworms mate by hitting each other with their penises, because the sperm diffuses through the skin. Flatworms are pretty freaky that way.

Regarding what Greg said, as I can recall he only implied that Zafiro has genitals retracted somewhere, which only makes sense. I don't remember any post in which he mentioned hemipenes.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 6:09:14 pm EST from 63.225.147.85

Many species of invertebrates (like crabs) and fish mate by releasing sperm and eggs into the water. It works in the same way pollination by wind works. They hope a lot of sperm finds eggs, but depends on all kinds of variables. But it is still considered "mating".

But all animals do mate (except same-sex animals, like some fish and reptiles). It does not matter if they have a penis or not. Mating does not mean the female HAS to be penetrated. Mating is when two animals copulate and reproduce, no matter the means of it.

Now I know snakes have two penises. Zafiro isn't technically a snake, or related to a snake, he just has the appearance of one. I doubt he has two penises, but its obvious that it is hidden away.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 3:27:49 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

Demon@> My display name at work is currently TiniTinyTony. It was Anthony Tini. At home, my display name is currently t-o-n-WHY, and it was tonY tini or tonY Tini. I don't know. Just changing it for variety, and to emphasis the Y in TONY 'cause my name is NOT Toni.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
"It's just been revoked." "I'll have what she's having!"
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 3:21:55 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Demon@> Most birds mate by rubbing their cloacas together, actually. The male just releases his sperm while the two openings touch.

A cloaca serves the urinary, digestive, and reproductive systems, and in species that have hemipenes (or other equivalent organ) that's the opening through which they come out. So it's just as much a reproductive orifice for a male as it is for a female (though of course it gets used more for elimination than reproduction for both sexes).
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 2:44:10 pm EST from 199.38.51.134

Penis or not, all animals mate (except the few species with a single sex and/or self-fertilization). And many animals without penises can and do achieve internal fertilization. I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but it is not accurate.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 2:42:27 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Animals that do not have a piness do not mate. Some do some sort of ritual to estimulate the release of sperm and ovaries that are, later on, depositated into an external medium, such as wather or plants ( some insects, for example).

All vertebrates need a liquid medium to make the fecundation succesfull. Anphibians and fish. the only vertebrates (with some exceptions, such as most sharks) do not have piness, because they release the sperm and ovaries into the wather, where they join and form the eggs.

Terrest (¿?) vertebrates have their own liquid medium on the females, be it reptile, mammal or bird. The male need some sort of system to pass on the sperm into the female they HAVE to have a piness. They woudnt be able to pass on the sperm into them otherwise.

The cloaca is more related to the excretor system rather than the reproduction system where males are concern.

Im wondering now about the Loch Ness clan...

TTT: why do keep changin your name?
Demon@
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 2:31:52 pm EST from 190.16.199.84

When Zafiro comes out of the shower, does he still wear a towel around his waist?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
"It's just been revoked." "I'll have what she's having!"
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 2:03:23 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

I didn't mean to imply that some gargoyles had one and some had two... I think it'd make more sense for all of them to just have one. Zafiro's is obviously held inside most of the time, so it would make the most sense for all of them to be that way. However, if his configuration is tied to the genetics that caused his snakelike form, those with normal legs may have external genatalia.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 1:45:00 pm EST from 199.38.51.134

Anyone get their copy of Gargoyles #6 (corrected reprint) yet?

I ain't going to see my comic guy until manana.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
"It's just been revoked." "I'll have what she's having!"
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 1:40:52 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

That should be "hemipenes" not heminepes.

There's no reason for gargoyles to have hemipenes anyway, because they only lay one egg at a time, so why would they have double uteri or fertilize two eggs at once? I don't get why Greg is saying they have two.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 1:30:29 pm EST from 63.225.147.85

An animal can have both a cloaca and a penis. But it would make absolutely no sense for some gargoyles to have one penis and others to have two heminepes. That's biologically nonsensical.

But I wasn't saying gargoyles parallel any specific animal groups. I was pointing out that what we consider "mammalian" is really only placental mammals. Marsupials have separate genital and anal openings, but they have doubled hemipenes. Egg-laying mammals have cloacas and I don't know what kind of penises they have. So unless gargoyles ARE mammals (which they aren't) they can't have the same organs as placental mammals.

Likewise, there's no reason to think they have the same organs as any group of reptiles or birds, because they aren't reptiles or birds either.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 1:28:39 pm EST from 63.225.147.85

Tony: :P
Demon@
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 1:23:17 pm EST from 190.16.199.84

Demon@> I think this is the word you're searching for: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/penis
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
"It's just been revoked." "I'll have what she's having!"
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 1:14:20 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Ah, apparently I was wrong. Of the reptiles, everything except turtles/tortoises have two hemipenes. Most birds don't have an equivalent organ, but some species (like turkeys and waterfowl) do.

Demon@> You're right. Amphibians don't: they reproduce in the water, so there's just a release of eggs from the female and sperm from the male, with no extra organs necessary.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 12:03:10 pm EST from 199.38.51.134

As far as I know reptiles and birds also have pines. Im not sure about anphibians though.

About Goliath`s size...lets have in count that tail he has >.< Using the imagination the size of his piness isnt really a problem...but I do think too that this is a gross conversation, considering who may read it.

Congrats for you drivers liscence!! I was in an accidente twice...though I was outside the vehicle This one recently by a stupid drunk driver and the first one some years back, I was hit by a buss :( It broke my leg and my arm XD I may need a liscence on how to walk properly on the street
Demon@
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 11:52:07 am EST from 190.16.199.84

Well, since we already know that Elisa and Goliath can't make children the old-fashioned way, why ask if they can have intercourse? There are plenty of other things you can do, after all. :)

Some form of adoption and clan-mothering is a good way to go: it just feels more realistic and orignal than Goliath and Elisa making a human/garg hybrid.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 11:37:38 am EST from 142.13.23.62

Oops. Sorry for the double post.

Matt> I meant for "hemipenes" to be singular; I think only snakes have two.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 11:28:04 am EST from 199.38.51.134

Matt> I think there was an Ask Greg about Zafiro, and he indicated that Zafiro had hemipenes like a snake does.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 11:26:50 am EST from 199.38.51.134

Vaevictis> Well, Greg said at the Gathering that male gargs are born circumsized, so I think that (if he wasn't just having fun with us) male garg anatomy somewhat parallels mammalian in that respect, though I'm not sure to what degree. It's conceivable that even if the parallel is there, the organ is held internally most of the time, and if so gargoyles may have cloacas.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 11:25:28 am EST from 199.38.51.134

No, no. I'm not suggesting any facts about gargoyle genitalia. Vaevictis may very well be correct that gargates have cloacas and no penises at all. Zafiro's anatomy certainly seems to support that, though it's possible that Zafiro does have a retracted penis. If so, it seems likely that all gargoyle males have retracted penises.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 11:21:41 am EST from 24.207.163.239

I'm not too sure if Greg pictured them to parallel mammals or birds/reptiles more in regards to sexual anatomy, but I'm under the impression from what Matt has just posted that they're more along the lines of mammalian anatomy in that respect. Within species, I don't think there is too much of a problem between mates of different proportions. Just like with humans, they most likely fall into a norm area, with a few males being a larger than average, but not enough to interfere. The vagina can stretch pretty well, within reason, during intercourse.
Goliath and Elisa, that'd be more problematic. I can't add to what's been said.
Asatira
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 10:57:08 am EST from 131.204.219.160

Congratulations PurpleGoldfish! I don't have my license yet and I wish I had a car, living in the U.S. without a car is bad. I was in an accident once (as a passenger) and wasn't hurt but it was very scary.

I think that since they aren't going to have biological children, Matt's right and it doesn't matter how Goliath and Elisa try to have sex, and I don't really want to dwell on it. Anyway, there's no reason to assume that gargoyles have organs similar to mammals, since they aren't mammals. Considering that they are egg-layers and even egg-laying mammals have a cloaca instead of two separate openings, I'm sure gargoyles have cloacas as well.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 10:17:45 am EST from 71.34.63.83

Wow, the 14th of Nov 1996 is a busy day. I guess it's expected since "tomorrow" 1996, is when the the Stone of Destiny is returned to Scotland and placed in Edinburgh Castle.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
"It's just been revoked." "I'll have what she's having!"
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 9:24:16 am EST from 159.240.11.254

Purplegoldfish> Congratulations! I took awhile to get my license, but it was great not to have to beg rides all the time anymore afterward. ^..^

"size" issues> I think Greg said at the Gathering that Goliath is "proportional" and that Elisa wouldn't really be able to accommodate him. I don't know how big an issue that will be, since there are also human men who can't fit completely with their partners, but do what they can anyway. And of course there are lots of other things couples can do that isn't intercourse.

With gargoyles, I'd presume there are females who stretch more than others, and that body size wouldn't necessarily indicate what they can fit in (human women are like that too). So if you have a large male and a small female, she could just have a lot more room, so to speak. Or they could do what humans do and put in as much as will fit comfortably.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 8:53:21 am EST from 199.38.51.134

Keep in mind that a human woman can give birth to a child, just as a gargoyle female can lay an egg. Both are capable of some stretching, though that may only be during birth/laying. Anyway, I frankly think the argument over if Goliath can penetrate Elisa is moot. They will be sexual with each other. They cannot have biological children. Everything else is just details that I don't think are very much our business.

Greg has said that gargoyle/human couplings are exceedingly rare with only one other instance in history. Random thought, but wouldn't it be neat if it was a human male and gargoyle female? Kinda cool to think about.

Not surprisingly given our guess about what Issues #7-9 are all about, but TDIGUH has a lot of withheld events for November 14th.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 7:48:45 am EST from 24.207.163.239

"Size Discrepancies"> I seem to remember Greg mentioning somewhere -, maybe an online chat? - that Goliath is particularly "well endowed" and that the fact figures strongly into why Goliath and Elisa can't make the beast with two backs. (Hey, that's Shakespearean, so it's totally kosher.) That does raise the question of what would happen if a gargoyle of Goliath's size had a mate of Lexington's size. I've seen at least one fanfic using this as a justification for why Elisa and Goliath can be together. But given that we do know that female gargoyles are capabale of laying eggs that are very large in relation to their body size (soft shell or no, that's got to be tough), it may just be that female gargoyles are just more flexiable in that way than human women.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 7:17:16 am EST from 209.6.249.41

Can't wait to get my license...and I'm 27... XD

At least I can say I'm not alone...

Now if I just had my own car...

Anyway, regarding Elisa and Goliath, I do remember reading somewhere about adoption... I'm too tired to look it up now, but I'm sure there was mention of it...
The One Known As Mochi - [rolandsteinert at hotmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> And the homework comes flooding in like a tsunami...
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 3:03:04 am EST from 72.199.225.9

Congrats PGF. Mind you, how do you drive while in a fish bowl?

Ah, to drive, to drive means freedom, and I'll always bee in prison. (Will never be able to drive)
Am in envious-just a tad. ^_~
Wingless
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 2:20:45 am EST from 99.245.254.123

PGF> Congrats on your license. Enjoy it. I love driving. I get most of my best thinking done in the car.
Greg Bishansky
"Well, you could make a case that the world has already ended. That art is dead. That we're exhausted. That instead of art, we have… pop culture, daytime TV, gay senior citizens, women that have been raped by their dentists, confiding in Oprah. An exploration in depth of why women cut off their husband's penis."
posted @ Wed, Nov 14, 2007 1:42:50 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Harvester: Thanks! what exactly are driving playlists?

Siren: ah a kindred spirit ;)- Sorry about your accident, I can see how that can be a hindrance on wanting to drive. I've never been in an accident-I just gave up after failing the test several times and my parents were let's say less than motivational...
Good luck with the driving-I'm sure you'll get it. I told myself for the longest time that I would never get a license and I did- you just need confidence in yourself.
and I'm 25. I know that there's a whole lot of people over 18 who don't drive
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 11:47:48 pm EST from 64.148.57.237

Siren> I had to switch Yahoo accounts awhile back and I no longer have your address to re-add to you my new account...

Lemme know whats up...
Justin - [jlindley07 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 11:39:21 pm EST from 74.135.61.121

God, I really butchered my first sentence. Congrats to all you licensed drivers! Hopefully in the future they will make people get a license to reproduce. But that's another topic.
t-o-n-WHY - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 11:29:37 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

Congrats all your licenced drivers! Hopefully in the future they will make people to get a license to reproduce. But that's another topic.

Concerning driving, the best thing to do after an accident is get right behind the wheel or you lose your nerve. I had a job moving cars from dealerships to auctions one summer, and a tractor trailer hit me. Thankfully no one was hurt, but a few hours later that day I got right back behind the wheel. I was shaky as hell, but I'm glad I did because I don't think I would have been able to the next day, and that would have been bad, especially since I was in the business of moving cars.
t-o-n-WHY - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 11:22:32 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

Purplegolfish, congrats! I am on my way to getting my license as well. Also due to infrequent lessons and confidence issues. I was a passenger in an accident 4 years ago, that ended up breaking my arm in half (I have a metal rod in it now), so that set me back. It took me a while to get over my fear. But I've been driving home from work everyday for 2 weeks and this weekend my dad is gonna take me out to work on my parking and 3 point turns. :) BTW, I am 28, so don't feel bad taking so long to get a license. I know how you feel and probably have been waiting longer, lol
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 11:19:01 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

Well, their gametes aren't compatible, so they'd probably enjoy sex more than most humans.

Goldfish: Congratulations! Let me know if you need any driving playlists. I can email you some good ones.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"He's not really a doctor. He's a plastic surgeon. All he cares is your son looks good in his coffin." -House, MD
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 10:21:15 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Gargoyle/Human Mating> I don't think size issues will be all that much of a problem. As others have pointed out, theres no reason to think Goliath is massively oversized "down there" by human standards. Who knows what is under the loincloth. And bringing up Lex is a good point too. I would think that since gargoyles come in a lot of shapes and sizes yet still are all able to interbreed indicates that there is a sort of "standardized equipment on both males and females. Whether that is compatible with humans is anyone's guess, but the main inhibitor to procreation through a human and gargoyle is genetics and basic pysiology. Elisa is probably more closely genetically compatible with a horse than... well, you know where I'm going with that...
Anyway, I have no doubt, and Greg has said so as well, that Elisa and Goliath will be capable of providing sexual pleasure for each other. I don't know exactly what that entails, and I doubt we ever will know. And that's alright by me.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 10:17:38 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Elisa will raise a human child with Goliath, adopted, I'm sure. That being said, I see her being a clan mother to the eggs as well. She is a part of the clan now.
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 10:09:26 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

goliath/elisa and "size discrepencies"-
I've always wondered. What if a male gargoyle the size of goliath wanted to mate with a female gargoyle the size of lexington? Lex is even smaller than most humans in the show. Are female gargoyles maybe able to er... "stretch" more?

adoption-I'm under the impression that it's a human kid. I can't see elisa deciding that she's going to be the primary mother to one of the clan's kids. She's made it clear that she wants kids of her own. and she's human-why should she raise it the gargoyle way?

Oh and everyone rejoice for me-I finally got my driver's license after six years of on/off driving lessons and confidence issues :P
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 10:02:41 pm EST from 64.148.57.237

I think that the very first hint of Goliath and Elisa someday becoming a couple is in "Awakening Part Three", when Goliath picks Elisa up to carry her on the big tour through the city, and they exchange a brief smile before remembering that Hudson's there.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 8:55:33 pm EST from 4.244.214.167

Greg W. -- That does clear up my confusion, thank you. Sorry if I'm getting irritable about the delays. I'm having a rotton day.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 8:26:02 pm EST from 63.225.152.107

Oh, and for the other record, the script did indeed say Oberon's mirror... you cynical, cynical person.

(Not that I'm above retroactively bull****ting a solution.)

;)
Greg Weisman
"Ask me who invented sarcasm?" "Okay, who invented sarcasm?" "I did." -- Approximate quote from a comic strip called, I think, Downstown.
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 8:23:04 pm EST from 64.14.248.62

PATRICK> Oberon used that Mirror, not Titania. We heard the original get destroyed. We saw Oberon use this one. It was clear enough who the second mirror belonged to.
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 8:18:55 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

For the record -- and I apologize if this wasn't clear -- "finished and approved" does not (as Demonskyre noted) include printed and shipped from the printer.
Greg Weisman
"Ask me who invented sarcasm?" "Okay, who invented sarcasm?" "I did." -- Approximate quote from a comic strip called, I think, Downstown.
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 8:12:33 pm EST from 64.14.248.62

VA> Well, "finished and approced" does not necessarily include "printed" or "ready to ship to the stores". We also don't know what kind of holiday time SLG takes. A nig holiday usually bumps comics back from Wednsday to Thursday, though I can't recall if they delay for Thanksgiving, since that falls on a Thurday. I would actually rather it come out a little later than be released earlier on a delayed day when people are less likely to go to the store and see it among the new releases.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 7:50:56 pm EST from 209.6.249.41

Oops, I meant to say "If Bad Guys #1 is finished an approved, why should the existence of Thanksgiving a week from now prevent SLG from releasing it tomorrow?"
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 7:43:56 pm EST from 63.225.152.107

Nah, they're royalty. I could see them having "his" and "hers" full-length mirrors.

As far as Jonny is concerned, certain comments of his on myspace have me leaning towards "troll." That, or he has a negligent mother, because someone that retarded should not be let anywhere near anything that uses electricity. But anyway, I think we should start pretending he doesn't exist.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Teasing hurts. But it's funny as hell." -From somethingawful.com
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 7:36:38 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

I'm glad Greg and everyone took the time on Goliath and Elisa's relationship as well. It added tension and just reflected more acurately on the two as characters.

Good to have some updates on the comics from Greg. I mentioned the reprint to my comics guy, so he at least knew to keep a heads up. I'll find out tomorrow.
Asatira
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 7:36:07 pm EST from 68.119.80.156

Double post... Around *here*, I meant to type.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 7:20:56 pm EST from 76.205.97.110

"I read in the paper this morning that they were forbidding people in New York to feed pigeons, because they don't want to encourage the pigeon population and its related troubles."

Around there they're telling people not to give change to panhandlers downtown for the same reasons.

I've always wondered if it actually says "Oberon's Mirror" in the script for "The Gathering", or that was a retcon to explain a potential nit. After all, I'd have had no problem believing that a magic mirror could magically be repaired.

227 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Who congregate around Trafalgar Square taking potshots at the tourists?" - Genesis, "Pigeons"
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 7:20:02 pm EST from 76.205.97.110

If #6 is already completely done and approved, then why is SLG having all these problems? What is their problem? It seems each time there's a delay, the reason is stupider than the last.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 7:17:51 pm EST from 63.225.152.107

Great update by Greg W. I knew he wouldn't hold out on us. I'm glad for the glimmer of home from some GD new Gargoyles comics already! Sheesh! It's always good to hear from the "big dog", right, Matt? ;)

* * *

Jonny Modlin should die of Gonorrhea and rot in hell. Would you like a cookie, son?
t-o-n-WHY - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 7:15:50 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

I think Jonny Modlin should have an article on wikality :p
starlioness
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 6:58:00 pm EST from 206.188.56.24

I read in the paper this morning that they were forbidding people in New York to feed pigeons, because they don't want to encourage the pigeon population and its related troubles. Whenever I read such articles, I always wonder whether the gargoyles' dislike of pigeons (and especially Bronx's dislike of them), once it becomes known, might win them some supporters - as in, people seeing them as allies against those "feathered rats". (Of course, the gargoyles aren't interested in hunting pigeons, but still....)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 6:57:01 pm EST from 4.244.214.167

Greg just posted an update on the comic situation.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 6:48:04 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Is there any way before Friday we can get confirmation about bad guys issue #1 coming out next week? The only way (at present) for me to get the gargoyles comic is for me to place the order but I don't want to place the order if I'm not sure it's going to arrive.

One other question/comment: Diamond has bad guys issue #1 priced at $3.50. Gargoyles issue #6 was $3.95. I thought the difference in price between the two would be more than $.45 because the savings in going b&w. Or does that mean the cost of issue #7 is going to go up again?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 6:25:36 pm EST from 71.29.242.171

Greg B> Has he ever outright stated that it will be "an adoption"? Because the last time I saw him respond to a comment on that, he seemed to think the person saying it was an adoption was assuming too much. It may be that it's not an adoption per se (as I imagine it would be tough for even a single cop to get approved for adoption, let alone one who may or may not be openly committed to a gargoyle partner), but more like a traditional gargoyle "group parenting". It may be someone else's child, but they're very involved in raising it, perhaps even acting as primary caregivers.

What we do know for certain is that humans and gargoyles can't have children (at least, not without the aid of magic of science, and Goliath and Elisa apparently aren't going down that path). Apparently, certain, er, "size discrepancies" may even make it impossible for Goliath and Elisa to intiate the process of having biological children.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 6:17:05 pm EST from 209.6.249.41

Tony> Greg has said many times that it will be adoption.
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 2:53:59 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

If anyone watches Smallville, we see that Lana temporarily gets powers like Clark. They are able to bang. So in one very unique circumstance, two different species were able to mate.

I wonder if something will happen like that for Goliath and Elisa or they will adopt. For adoption is the realistic easy answer, but in a show full of magic, science and sorcery, you think something extraordinary would happen, especially for our main couple.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
"It's just been revoked." "I'll have what she's having!"
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 2:28:44 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

More agreement for Vaevictus! :D

It often doesn't seem like fantasy fiction handles interpsecies relationships realistically, in terms of their potentials for conflict and indecisiveness, of just dropping it because it would be so much trouble. Gargoyles is also good because it had Elisa make some bad decisions, and later change her mind. Weisman wasn't afraid to have his heroes look flawed.

All in all, a nice package. :)
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 1:45:51 pm EST from 142.13.23.62

Vaevictis> Me too.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 1:42:47 pm EST from 76.247.68.211

Vaevictis> I heartily agree.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 12:55:09 pm EST from 199.38.51.134

Amen, Vaevicits.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 12:14:25 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I'm really glad that Greg took the realistic route and made it take them two or so years to say "I love you." I know there are surely fans who wish they'd done it more quickly, but I really think that this is far more realistic. Not only because gargoyles mate for life, but because interspecies romance isn't something that normal, sane, real people would jump into without any consideration or concern.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 12:11:43 pm EST from 63.225.152.107

Tony> To add to what Demonskyre has said; yes, "The Mirror" is when Goliath realizes his feelings towards Elisa. I mostly just wanted to add how Greg summed it up at the Gathering: "Guys are dense, and women are insane." This was namely in response to Goliath and Elisa's attitudes to their growing relationship. Goliath was slow to recognize it -- for reasons Demonskyre summed up perfectly -- but, in his way, took to it once he did; Elisa recognized her feelings pretty quickly, but as seen at the end of the episode, and in issues 3-5, she didn't want to address it.
Asatira
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 11:42:05 am EST from 131.204.97.9

Tony> I believe that Greg has said this is the first time Goliath relized that his feelings for Elisa went beyond friendship. Keep in mind that "Vows", the episode where Goliath truly accepts that there is no chance for him and Demona to be together again, hasn't happened yet. Gargoyles mate for life, so it's understandable that it would take Goliath a while to see his "marriage" as over while Demona was still alive, even if Demona was repeatedly trying to kill him. Plus, I'm pretty sure Greg has said something to the effect of "Goliath's a guy and guys are pretty inept when it comes to recognizing their feelings for someone."

Elisa is another story. According to and "Ask Greg" response (which I don't really have the time to seek out), Elisa had already discovered that she had feelings for Goliath. She considered the situation on her own and came to the conclusion that taking their relationship further would be impossible, all before the events of "The Mirror". That's why she says what she does at the end of the episode. In her view, there's just no sense in going down that path because it's not going to lead to anything good.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 10:22:40 am EST from 209.6.249.41

Tony, I think it is far more likely SLG that keeps screwing up, not Diamond.
Intestinal? Ew, I think you meant Intentional. :p

I think that Jonny is a troll. We should either find a way to block him, or spam him back 'till his computer explodes.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 10:17:52 am EST from 63.225.152.107

I'll let others handle the Goliath-Elisa question, but I do know that Titania's Mirror WAS destroyed by Demona. However, the mirror seen in "The Gathering" was Oberon's Mirror. Apparently they were a set, and allegedly came as a wedding present from someone to Oberon and Titania.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 9:34:29 am EST from 24.207.163.239

* intentional, not intestinal, although that does make my comment funnier.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
"It's just been revoked." "I'll have what she's having!"
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 9:24:09 am EST from 159.240.11.254

NubianKitten> Why are you staying up so late? Get a DVR from your cable company and set it to record. (That's what I do.)

I watched "The Mirror" as well. I was wondering some things too.

First off, I don't think the Tinkerbell thing is intestinal, but maybe the animator who does Tinkerbell did some work on that episode, I have no idea.

Secondly, at the end when Demona sees herself in human form, you hear her scream and a faint sound of glass breaking. Does she shatter Titania's mirror when she sees herself? If she does, I'm guessing there are multiple mirrors since Oberon has one on Avalon during The Gathering??

Lastly, Goliath notices how beautiful Elisa is when she turns into a Gargoyle and then realizes that he has feelings for her. Is this the first episode where those feelings begin for Goliath? For Elisa?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
"It's just been revoked." "I'll have what she's having!"
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 9:21:16 am EST from 159.240.11.254

DEMON@ - I'm sorry to hear about your arm.

I think it just as probable that Jonny Modlin's just a really obsessed Gargoyles fan with too much time on his hands, who needs to settle down and understand that the world won't come to an end if the final Gargoyles DVD never comes out.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 7:16:19 am EST from 4.244.208.90

Hello all! Forum lurker and garg-fan here with a question about the episode "The Mirror". I noticed this and wondered if I was just watching too closely or if this was actually something worth looking in to: When Goliath releases Puck from his chains and he flies away, did he do the "Tinkerbell" flight (watch any opening Disney animation with Tink dotting the "I" and flying away)? They seemed similar to each other...or maybe I'm hallucinating from constantly staying up until 3am to watch Gargoyles. ;)
Anyways, thanks for any answers, and see you guys in Chicago!
NubianKitten - [nubiankitten at gmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 4:18:45 am EST from 67.149.117.167

If you go to Diamond's website, they have two links/lists, one that tells you what is SHIPPING the current week and another link/list that tells you what to EXPECT to ship the following week.

Two weeks ago on the EXPECTED list, Diamond posted that they expected Gargoyles #6 reprint to ship the 7th of Nov. It did not, and it was NOT shown in the Nov 7th SHIPPING list. Then I posted a Diamond link last week that said that Gargoyles #6 was EXPECTED on the 14th. Now I was "expecting" to see #6 on the SHIPPING list but it is not there this week.

But out of nowhere, Bad Guys #1 shows up on the EXPECTED list for next week Nov 21st, and if haven't lost you, then congrats because it's a little confusing.

So in other words, Diamond and SLG are sending conflicting reports. I'm assuming that Diamond screwed up and posted the Gargoyles #6 reprint too soon on their expected list. And screwed up again because they didn't post it today on their SHIPPING list. SLG says it's coming out this Wednesday, so hopefully it will be out this Wednesday Nov 14th.

Now the other conflict, is SLG says Dec '07 for BG #1. Diamond says Nov 21st for BG #1. Did Diamond screw up again or will we have a Thanksgiving miracle?
t-o-n-WHY - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 13, 2007 12:01:56 am EST from 70.15.84.29

This other forums I've been on also has Jonny pulling the same stunt with other programs. It's speculated that he is a spambot as his messages are similar with the other DVD sets.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 10:20:51 pm EST from 71.115.192.199

Demon@> Sorry to hear about the arm. Wish you a quick recovery and all that.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 10:09:10 pm EST from 24.197.69.45

Demon@> At least your arm's okay. Could've been worse.

Thankfully, it wasn't.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 10:06:39 pm EST from 76.247.68.211

Jonny>> There is no scheduled release of Vol. 2 of Season 2. It all depends on the sales of Vol. 1, and it did not sell well. We don't have the exact figures, but we know that its sales were below expectations. When Greg knows anything about Vol. 2, he'll tell us, and we'll be in all the tubes of the Internets to let everybody else and their mothers know.
Alex Garg - [<-- The Gathering 2008 in Chicago!]
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 10:02:20 pm EST from 68.48.113.192

But seriously, I hope the arm's okay.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Truly, you do not understand the depth of the pain you are inviting." -Akimi ("Shadowrun")
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 8:42:42 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Holy shit, he stepped up his attack. We're onto Blu-Ray now.

Demon@: It's not that I don't care. Just that I already get my fill of this at work. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Truly, you do not understand the depth of the pain you are inviting." -Akimi ("Shadowrun")
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 8:41:56 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

When will Disney release Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 2 on DVD, so that I can complete the entire series? When will Disney release Gargoyles: The Complete Series on Blu-Ray Disc, HD-DVD or DVD that I will get? Is Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 2 scheduled for DVD release yet?
Jonny Modlin - [mmodlin at optonline dot net]
Jonny Modlin
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 8:38:14 pm EST from 69.0.1.46

On this day, we remember those that served.

Those that fell in name of that service...
Those that still stand...
Those that still live, yet remember...
And those that have left, yet WE remember...

For all that have served... I ask that you give them thanks, and remember them and their stories, their history.

Never forget to remember, to honor and to cherish the freedom that their service bought for all in our country.

To my fellow Servicemen and Women . . . I thank you.

Carry on.


-- Stephen
Stephen R. Sobotka - [ssobotkajr at gmail dot com]
"You've got to remember that no one is the villain of their life. No one wakes up in the morning and says... "I'm a bad guy." Nobody."
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 8:27:26 pm EST from 71.101.31.250

VA-Keith: thks! :) Im allright now and I will be even better when the bastard pays me >:(
KC: Not exactly...I saw it coming...and with my super reflexs, instead of getting out of the way I put my arm to soften the blow. And it broke on the crash :P But I suppose its better than having a few ribs broken
Demon@
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 7:43:40 pm EST from 190.16.199.84

I've sometimes wondered if we're better off not visiting Diamond Comics' and Slave Labor Graphics' sites, since the things that get posted (or don't get posted) on their sites keep on panicking us.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 7:32:55 pm EST from 4.244.213.72

Sorry to double post but looking at those two diamondcomics urls (one for Nov 14, the other for Nov 21) I noticed that "GLOOMCOOKIE VOL 1 TP" (another SLG title) is listed for both dates. Which indicates that either SLG is experiencing delays that might also impact Gargoyles, SLG is telling Diamond wrong/conflicting dates, or that the dates are otherwise unreliable. Hmm.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 7:26:10 pm EST from 71.34.43.116

It's a diamondcomics url, so it must be about as secure as the rest of Diamond's site.

Here it is again:
http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/expected_111407.txt
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 7:23:08 pm EST from 71.34.43.116

I hope no one doctored that document... that would be decidely uncool.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 7:07:24 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I thought Tony earlier (last week) posted a link to Diamond's shipping list for this week that included #6?
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 6:46:16 pm EST from 71.34.43.116

TiniTiniTony - I just saw that. Generally, I trust Diamond Comics more than slg, but Slg's website mentions the reprint of issue #6 coming out this week, but diamond doesn't say a thing about it. Yes, Diamond has a better track record. Still, if that is right, things are off only by 1 month.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 6:04:53 pm EST from 71.29.242.171

I kind of think it would be better for the TPB to come out January if #7 and Bad Guys both come out december as it would help the idea of a Gargoyles product coming out for two straight months.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 5:27:26 pm EST from 71.115.192.199

Tony> SLG and/or Greg Weisman = The Big Dogs.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 5:02:01 pm EST from 76.247.68.211

Who are the big dogs?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
"It's just been revoked."
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 4:45:32 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

I hope that's legit. I'll wait for confirmation from the big dogs before I get too excited though...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 4:42:24 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

According to Diamond, this is coming out November 21st
AUG073316 GARGOYLES BAD GUYS #1 $3.50

http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/expected_112107.txt

Legit?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
"It's just been revoked."
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 4:30:02 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Demonskrye> Check your email.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 3:33:32 pm EST from 76.247.68.211

King Cobra> I still remember some of my high school Latin and what I don't know I could possbily work out through the internets. My e-mail (slightly modified for spam avoidance) is below.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 3:28:20 pm EST from 209.6.249.41

So is there anybody here who knows Latin? I really need some help here. Thanks.

Demona@> A car crashed on your arm?! Jeez.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 2:49:16 pm EST from 76.247.68.211

*sigh*

MORE delays? Daaaaaamn.

I don't mind waiting since I buy lots of other comics, but it upsets me on behalf of the gargoyles property because I know that with each delay there will probably be at least a small number of fans who get frustrated and give up on waiting. I have no intentions of doing so, but it seems inevitable that some fans will.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 1:21:00 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Vaevictis Asmadi - <I'm sick and tired of delays.> So am I. It looks like we're going to be 2 months behind the schedule posted here - http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=505 .

There's December 5th, 12th, 19th, and 26th as the days in December to release Bad Guys issue #1, gargoyles volume 1, and gargoyles issue #7. 4 weeks, 3 comics. It looks like the odds are against it. If anything, I could wait for issue #7 to come out in January, but I will be concerned if gargoyles issue #7 or gargoyles volume 1 comes out before bad guys issue #1.

The only thing that should prevent the compilation of the 1st six issues from being approved is whatever special features Greg Weisman adds to it - http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10040.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 1:05:20 pm EST from 71.29.242.171

It should be noted that the petrification spell used in "City of Stone" was not permanent, but had a conditional duration.

Thus, when the spell was broken, the shattered remains of humans turned into flesh.
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 11:55:10 am EST from 75.142.107.43

Oops, forgot my avatar.

To make this post pointful, I don't wanto #7 pushed back to January. I'm sick and tired of delays. As long as they can manage to get Bad Guys out in January, I don't care if #7 adn BG#1 happen to be the same month. I just want them published already.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 10:57:44 am EST from 71.34.43.116

Ouch Demon@ I'm sorry to hear about what happened! Get well soon.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 10:56:21 am EST from 71.34.43.116

Demon@> Wow. I'm glad you're okay.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 10:26:29 am EST from 199.38.51.134

UFF IM BACK!! =D...What do you mean you didnt even notice I was gone? Bah, go to h**l A stupid car crashed on me and broke my arm :P So I spend the last week at the acursed hospital. But now Im allright...What do you mean you dont care?? Bah, everyone is crashed by a car at least one time in life. You will see what you learn when it happens to you. It will make a better person of you

Jurgan: thats great!! I on it :)

It was a joke but just for the record A good artist only their own path.
Demon@
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 8:52:04 am EST from 190.16.199.84

I never used the word "liberal." And I never said all of them were. I said "most," but in retrospect I should have said "a lot of" or "several." So most was a poor choice of words. I apologize for that.

So... anybody ever taken a stab at Angela's measurements?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Dawn of thought, transferred through moments of days undersearching earth/ Revealing corridors of time provoking memories, disjointed but with purpose..." -Yes ("Revealing Science of God")
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 7:08:27 am EST from 71.62.198.251

Who knew that counting to ten could be so difficult?

If most artists are tree-hugging liberals, who paints all those portraits of Elvis and Jesus on black velvet?

228 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"No flag, no country. Those are the rules that I just made up." - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 6:57:34 am EST from 76.205.97.110

Eight had nine and ten? That's really more than I needed to know.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Tales From Topographic Oceans")
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 6:44:40 am EST from 71.62.198.251

Vinnie, you can't claim three different spots on the countdown, so cut it out, please.

11!
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"Think of a sword as a part of your body." "Like a second head!" "Mmm, more like an extra-long, really sharp arm." -Sokka and his master, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 5:53:35 am EST from 68.58.248.59

Tenth?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Tales From Topographic Oceans")
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 5:48:25 am EST from 71.62.198.251

Sorry if I asked this before, but can anyone help me out with some Latin, please?

I need a summoning translation for my entry in the next anthology.

You'll receive full credit, of course.

Thanks.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 4:05:12 am EST from 76.247.68.211

(8,9,10) Eight had nine and ten. And away we go on with the show!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
It's silly. It's a silly movie. There just isn't much there. Once you take it all apart, there's not much story, is there?- George Lucas on Spider-Man 3
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 3:59:54 am EST from 69.54.209.132

My guess was that the Pack was away during City of Stone.

As for the first batch of mutates, they were not in the sky.
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 3:35:18 am EST from 75.142.107.43

6th in the name of waffles
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 2:04:16 am EST from 71.29.242.171

Fifth!
Phoenician - [<---My Kinda Useless Blog]
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 1:06:32 am EST from 157.242.211.2

third
oneuke
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 12:20:30 am EST from 66.167.7.191

So #6 is being rereleased this week, how does that work. Will comic shops happily exchange old for new, or is this thing not done. Do stores generally, order in new things printings? Gargs is the only comic I buy, so I don't know how these things work.

Pity about Bad Guys being put back, do you reckon #7 will be put back to January?
Al
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 12:16:47 am EST from 202.7.176.139

Second! :D
The One Known As Mochi - [rolandsteinert at hotmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Finally... A break from homework...
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 12:14:32 am EST from 72.199.225.9

FIRST
Justin - [jlindley07 at gmail dot com]
JUSTIN IS FIRST EVER
posted @ Mon, Nov 12, 2007 12:09:28 am EST from 74.135.61.121