Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

*** SPOILERS ***

DEMONSKRYE> Yeah, I have since refined my theory a little. I don't think the Norman we saw at OsCorp was the real deal. Walking in through the front door, which surprised the guard. Downloading from Norman's computer, and the way he sounded surprised that there was a thief in the building, something about the way the line was delivered.

When the Goblin (who I still think is Norman) flew in and saw "Norman," he gave him a strange look. Obviously he couldn't react to it, or else he would blow his cover.

So, I think Chameleon was there in the guise of Norman Osborn doing a little industrial espionage. Or maybe the Big Man hired him to investigate OsCorp for any possible Goblin connections. We'll see.

*** END SPOILERS ***
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In 1977, George Lucas' "Star Wars" was released, and the intellectual and art side of filmmaking and filmgoing has been scattered to the four winds ever since."
posted @ Sun, May 11, 2008 7:24:06 pm EDT from 75.56.245.4

Spectacular Spider SPOILERS

Greg B> I was thinking more along the lines of Norman was going to take up the Goblin mantle after Harry puts it aside, but now I actually think you've got a point. And I think next week's Chameleon episode that Algernon pointed out could be a big clue. Did you notice the guard's dialogue when Norman goes into OsCorp just before Gobby attacks? How the guard is surprised to see Norman there, and walking in the front door no less? Almost as if he wanted to make sure somebody saw him there. Hmmmm....

I still can't account for the lack of a limp in Norman if he was the Goblin that was injured. But I agree that all the obvious buildup to Harry being the Goblin feels a little too pat, like the audience was way ahead of the characters. But aside from any potential fake-outs, I think it has much more emotional resonance if Peter at least thinks Harry is the Goblin, and lends more believability to the idea that Spidey would keep the Goblin's identity a secret.

Anyways, a really nice episode with a lot of fun and excitement. Plus the best characterization of Jonah I've seen anywhere. He's still not gonna win any Boss of the Year awards and I imagine he's going to become a prgressively bigger annoyance to Spidey (as we saw while my husband and I were getting a good laugh over the old "Spider-Man: Threat or Meance?" headline), but he loves his son and he's human.

Oh, and Greg, were you worried for a second there that the Goblin was about to unmask Spidey and fly around looking to reveal his identity to the world? That pose during the battle looked awfully familiar. (Of course, if this had happened, Peter could have simply argued that he was just an innocent bystander wearing his Spider-Man costume for Halloween.)
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Sun, May 11, 2008 7:17:33 pm EDT from 209.6.248.33

My daughter has her end of the year project and she has to build a castle. And I thought, we could build Castle Wyvern. :D So anyone who knows a place with clear 360 degree pics including from above the castle. Please post them here or email me sirengarg@yahoo.com with the subject line "Castle Wyvern"
Thanks all!

And I will post pics!
Siren
posted @ Sun, May 11, 2008 6:50:13 pm EDT from 72.188.137.207

PATRICK> The correct answer is Princess Katharine. Elisa is more like a big sister to Angela. Not a mother figure. As for Demona, the last time she saw her, mommy was trying to unleash mass genocide on the entire planet, and still risked her own daughter's life in a narrow escape. I think she feels less bad about the "I hate you" comment at present.

If the comic makes it to the next Demona story, things should be interesting.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In 1977, George Lucas' "Star Wars" was released, and the intellectual and art side of filmmaking and filmgoing has been scattered to the four winds ever since."
posted @ Sun, May 11, 2008 6:30:32 pm EDT from 75.56.245.4

Happy Mother's Day! Pop quiz:

Who does Angela buy a card for on this day?
A) Demona
B) Elisa
C) Princess Katharine
D) All of the above

47 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sun, May 11, 2008 6:18:31 pm EDT from 99.161.129.188

In regards to "Norman" and the Goblin running into each other at Oscorp, I don't think it's a coincidence that next weeks episode features an appearance by the Chameleon.
Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn
posted @ Sun, May 11, 2008 4:23:34 pm EDT from 86.41.204.251

Wait a sec... African American albino? I finally found something that trumps Eskimo firefighter.

POSSIBLE SPOILERS
I was talking about this with a friend last night, who knows comic history a little better than I do (a lot better, actually). Apparently, the Roderick Kingsley Hobgoblin used "doubles" a few times. So the idea of Norman using a similar tactic wouldn't surprise me. Of course, Osborn is arguably worse since he's using his own son, but it also wouldn't surprise me if there were more than one.

Apparently, when we saw Green Goblin in Oscorp stealing the Inhibitor, there were some subtle alterations in his physical appearance that I didn't pick up on (until I was told about them). I've still got the episode saved on DVR (well, I have all of them saved on DVR), so I'll have to watch that scene again.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I do not apologize, old man!" -Norman Osborn ("Spectacular Spider-Man").
posted @ Sun, May 11, 2008 2:23:23 pm EDT from 76.123.52.7

I really REALLY wish I could comment on the Spidey stuff... Gah! :: bites tongue... hard ::
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
posted @ Sun, May 11, 2008 2:00:38 pm EDT from 75.85.111.199

Anthony Tini> Well we saw the Goblin limping away at the end of the battle but that proves nothing. A limp is fairly easy to fake. As for why Harry had a limp, my guess is Norman, in the lounge, with a sledgehammer.
Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn
posted @ Sun, May 11, 2008 5:04:40 am EDT from 86.41.204.251

SPIDER-MAN SPOILER Question

Greg, you make fine points and I agree with all of them, but I don't understand why Harry had a limp and Norman did not?

I definitely had a feeling that the next villain would be Venom because I knew in the comics that the symbiote hitched a ride onto Jameson's space shuttle, or so I've been told since I don't/haven't read any Spidey comics (I just know what my friend Dan tells me.)

Overall, I enjoyed the episode. I was really hoping for a guy in a Gargoyles costume, which may be there, but I didn't spot on my first watch. I did notice the black cat costume.
(The Gargoyles Pulse - updated Mondays)
~ Anthony Tini
posted @ Sun, May 11, 2008 4:47:03 am EDT from 70.15.84.29

* SPOILERS *

So the Green Goblin has been unmasked - or has he? At first, I was wondering if the production team really did mean Harry to be the Goblin, but I think that Bishansky's made some good points about how it might be a cunning ruse of Norman's. (And, knowing Norman, I find that believable.)

So Flash not only dresses up as a cheerleader, but so do the rest of his buddies. I definitely hadn't expected that one.

And Peter picking Spider-Man for his Halloween costume was great. (As was his parody of "Twas the Night Before Christmas" at the start, forced rhymes and all.) It reminded me of the gargoyles' "Halloween costumes" in "Eye of the Beholder" and the Double Date story, as well.

Tombstone might be a villainous crime lord, but he still impresses me with his formidability. You can tell how he got to the top, just by seeing him in action.

I laughed at the Green Goblin's deja vu remark.

Like the other commenters here, I enjoyed J. Jonah Jameson's portrayal here - anxious over his son's survival, relieved when John makes it down safely, then able to indulge in his usual shouting at everyone else.

And I was right about the shuttle's return - Venom's hitched a ride on it. Now we've got even more to look forward to.

* SPOILERS END *
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, May 10, 2008 8:04:32 pm EDT from 4.244.210.178

Harvester of Eyes> As I recall the comic version of Tombstone possessed superhuman strength and invulnerability to the point of withstanding high caliber bullets. Of course, the comic version of Tombstone was also an illiterate thug with the IQ of a brain damaged wombat. Needless to say I like this show's version better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombstone_%28comics%29
Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn
posted @ Sat, May 10, 2008 5:46:00 pm EDT from 86.41.204.251

POSSIBLE SPOILERS

Greg B: Another clue, or at least I think so, is the Goblin's actions in the episode "Catalysts." We've seen what a ruthless bastard Norman Osborn is. I wouldn't put it above him to blow up a room full of innocent people just to take out one man. Of course, one might chalk that up to drug-induced insanity, but I doubt it, because I agree that the Goblin can't be Harry. There's another angle to this. Which actually makes Norman more of a bastard. He doesn't need to be under the influence of anything to want to wipe out innocent bystanders. Pure Norman Osborn. ( ;

Course, now I wish we had the option of editing unanswered questions on ASK GREG. Should have known that "Concerned father" malarkey he fed Spidey at the end of this latest episode was a bunch of horse shit. It makes sense.

General remarks, now...
As far as this episode is concerned, I like the way it really shows us how the Goblin's mind works. It was never his intent to blackmail Tombstone. He simply wanted to get both his enemies in the same room so he could annihilate them. By destroying a smelting plant. Was also a bit shocking to see Tombstone take three razor pumpkins in the back. I know that his strength is greater than an average human's, but does anyone more familiar with the comic have any info on what might have been done to his body?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I do not apologize, old man!" -Norman Osborn ("Spectacular Spider-Man").
posted @ Sat, May 10, 2008 5:11:27 pm EDT from 76.123.52.7

Algernon : Thank you!
Spen
"Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz."
posted @ Sat, May 10, 2008 5:06:32 pm EDT from 66.43.205.110

Spen> Episode nine.
Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn
posted @ Sat, May 10, 2008 4:56:36 pm EDT from 86.41.204.251

Since I missed today's episode, I'll have to be watching it on Youtube. However, I do have a slight problem. Exactly what number episode are we on now?
Spen
"Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz."
posted @ Sat, May 10, 2008 4:35:56 pm EDT from 66.43.205.110

Greg B> Naive fool! Norman is but a pawn of the one true Green Goblin..... Sally Avril. Really, how else do you explain pathological hatred of Peter? It's all been part of her master plan. ;)
Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn
posted @ Sat, May 10, 2008 3:13:45 pm EDT from 86.41.204.251

"The Uncertainty Principle"

*** SPECTACULAR SPOILERS ***

I loved this episode.

Very good title, as curve balls continue to be thrown at the audience. The mystery of the Green Goblin's identity is far from over. Well, after re-watching "Catalysts" and "Reaction" over again before watching this I am more convinced than ever that Harry is not the Green Goblin. Either he's been brainwashed or Norman has the Chameleon (who is showing up in the next episode) standing in for him as an alibi. But I'll get to that later.

Nice to finally see Hammerhead in action. Yes, this is why he's Tombstone's enforcer. But, nope, he's no match for the Green Goblin... that's why he's Spider-Man's arch-nemesis.

I loved scene with the Goblin and Tombstone. Just watching the two most dangerous characters in the series go at it like that is priceless. You can see why Hammerhead respects Tombstone so much. The Goblin is arguably more dangerous, but Tombstone commands respect just as much as fear.

It wouldn't be Halloween without costumes, and is that the Black Cat I see? Nice. Mary Jane shows up dressed as a sexy vampire. Liz shows up dressed as a Johnny Depp Fan Girl. Gwen... doesn't even have time to get into a costume because she is too busy worrying about Harry. Poor Gwen, when I see her, I think to myself that she is the only sane person in an insane world. "Some one is getting the look!"

I've been waiting to see Flash dressed as a cheerleader, but I did not expect the rest of the football team to be joining him. Way to show unity, guys. Flash seemed to like having boobs a little too much. So, how long until Rand tells Sally where she can stick it?

I loved Jameson in this episode. People have complained about him being two dimensional, but I never saw it. Hopefully this shut them up. His concern for his son's life was touching. I like this reasoning for his hatred for Spider-Man in this universe. He can't stand to see the spotlight stolen from his son. Is it rational? Not really. Is it understandable? Yes.

"Trap?" "Trap!" Someone's been watching "Serenity".

The fight scene at the end of the episode was stunning. A tip of the hat to everyone involved. Though this borders on cliche, you could feel the heat. I'd say it would be hard to top this one, but I said the same after Spidey's fight with the Lizard.

The final scene at the Osborn residence was... great. Norman is such a manipulative bastard, and I really felt for Harry. But this is the finest case of "the writers are trying to trick you" that I have ever seen. Now, Harry is taking a leave of absence. I hope we see him again soon.

Harry as the Green Goblin just does not add up.
* When the Goblin stole the tech-flight glider from OsCorp, it didn't have the bat-head designed to fire pumpkin bombs and extend a spear on it yet. Harry does not have the technical know-how to add on a feature like that. Norman does. Or the expertise to add that Inhibitor cannon to it. Harry's a moron.
* If Harry were the Green Goblin, he would have attacked the Fall Formal instead of going after Tombstone.
* How would Harry even have access to the Globulin Green in the first place?
* Why would Harry attempt to kill Octavius? Norman knew Otto was a liability, Hammerhead said so in "The Invisible Hand". Norman berated Otto for being a weak man. Then he dressed up as the Goblin so he would have an alibi to show Hammerhead.
* The Green Goblin and Norman Osborn both had the same safety key for Otto's experiment.
* The Big Man was only ever referred to as "Mr. Lincoln" by Norman once and that was in the underground lab while Rhino was being created. Harry could not have overheard that.
* Norman Osborn just so happens to have a secret chamber, which we never saw the inside of. Where's Harry keeping the glider and equipment... not under his bed. For that matter, stealing one or two vials of Globulin Green, I can buy... but we've seen Harry drink from too many.
* Norman's knowing smirk at the end of "Reaction" about unmasking the Goblin before it's too late.
* Peter tipped his hand, told the Goblin he figured out who he was. The Goblin knew Spidey would be coming to the Osborn residence.
* Harry in "Goblin mode" didn't admit to anything except taking the drug. To be the son Norman always wanted. A straight A student and a star athlete.
* Norman is thrown twenty feet up a wall by Harry and is uninjured.
* And it was Norman himself who rationalized it all at the end (a very rehearsed sounding explanation). Then offered to take he fall.

No, Harry was set up. By his own bastard father.

Spectacular episode.

*** END SPOILERS ***
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In 1977, George Lucas' "Star Wars" was released, and the intellectual and art side of filmmaking and filmgoing has been scattered to the four winds ever since."
posted @ Sat, May 10, 2008 2:14:55 pm EDT from 75.56.245.4

The Uncertainty Principle

***SPOILERS***

Wow . . . just wow (my favorite of Spidey's quips to date, though it was two eps ago).

So . . . Spidey takes a leaf out of the Gargoyles Handbook and decides to come clean to the world on who he is . . . on Halloween of course. (Granted, he may have done this in the comics or something. Sadly, I wouldn't know, but the scene totally brought my mind back to "Eye of the Beholder" and "Masque/Bash").

Flash finally as chear leader . . . I didn't expect the whole team to join in, but it works nicely.

Love the bit where the Gobulin Green makes Harry's eye distort into the GG's eye . . . creepy.

"No Harry, No Peter . . . SOMEONE's getting the look" (love Gwen there).

But seriously, HARRY's the GG? Man, am I confused now. If it IS somehow still Norman, then geeze, Greg's just REALLY hurting out poor little spider-man-fan brains.

I also don't know what to make of Norman's speech to Spidey -- if he's not the GG, then that's the most sincere and apologetic I think anyone's seen. But if he's managed to fool everyone (again), then the dad's just EVIL. (mind you, my only hope for Norman still being GG is Norman's creppy last line in the Doc Ock episode. He definitely knows more than he's letting on. I'm just not so sure what that is anymore.)

Other random thoughts:

Tombstone getting straight hit in the back -- Ouch. Yet he seemed unfazed (maybe annoyed). Don't know his mythology, personally, so every new episode he's in is really full of surprise.

Hammerhead. Huh, now I see why the name fits. (again, don't know his mythology as well).

How many bombs does that Goblin have? That amount should have totally sunk Manhattan into the river!

Finally --

"Oooh Oooh Oooh, WIPE OUT!!!" -- Man, I was cracking up like mad when I heard GG shout that.

***END SPOILERS***
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Sat, May 10, 2008 1:47:29 pm EDT from 157.242.223.88

Spidey spoilers

REALLY liked this episode. The Green Goblin was a complete freak. But that scene where they were both there had me do a double-take. It has to be the chameleon as Norman there. There's no way Harry is the Goblin, after playing with the mystery so much this is way too straight forward. Norman had to have framed Harry. That's the only explanation. And it makes him one sadistic and tricky bastard. (Why else wouldn't the writing team have had Harry demasked AT the scene of the crime? I suppose to confuse people like me maybe.)
Aldrius
posted @ Sat, May 10, 2008 11:09:44 am EDT from 207.112.55.54

Anyway, heres a random question: If down the road Greg decided to add a sixth member to the Redemption Squad, who do you think it'd be? Who would you hope for?

The more I think about it, the fewer real options I see. I can't see many of our villains wanting redemption, and even fewer who would "fit in".

Tea or Faramaku seem kinda cool except that their goals seem to be too local. Maybe after Renard's death Vogel could take a job as the Director's assistant, but I certainly can't see him as a team member.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, May 10, 2008 8:36:12 am EDT from 70.237.249.216

Come to think of it, Monk is played by the same guy who played the Emir, (Tony something or other) so there already is a "connection".
Spen
"I should say something Shakespearean now." - Goliath
posted @ Sat, May 10, 2008 5:35:35 am EDT from 66.43.205.68

If Jason Canmore making a guest appearance counts as a connection, you could say that Gargoyles is connected to "Monk" as well.
Spen
"I should say something Shakespearean now." - Goliath
posted @ Sat, May 10, 2008 5:31:33 am EDT from 66.43.205.68

I never said there was a reference, I said there was a connection.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 8:45:30 pm EDT from 99.161.129.188

Here's yesterday's CSI episode: http://www.cbs.com/primetime/csi/video/video.php?cid=446409122&play=true&cc=0

I didn't see any references to Gargoyles. The only connection I could find was Diedrich Bader (Jason Canmore) guest starring.
Lumpmoose - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 8:40:13 pm EDT from 216.250.163.157

Matt> I agree, I'm not going to assume anything until I see Diamond's Shipping list on Monday
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"God is dead."--Neitche "Neitche is dead."--God
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 8:13:37 pm EDT from 72.245.94.215

Don't count your bad eggs before they don't hatch. It is still quite possible #3 is coming out on Wednesday. Lets see what happens.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 7:53:09 pm EDT from 70.237.249.216

I'm not that disappointed over the indications that "Bad Guys" #3 isn't coming out next week. By now, we've probably all gotten used to the fact that whenever Diamond says such-and-such an issue of "Gargoyles" or "Bad Guys" is coming out on such-and-such a week, it means the week after that one. I was half-expecting the same thing to happen here already.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 7:10:37 pm EDT from 4.244.213.42

Phil>Same here, my newsletter doesn't have anything listed for Gargoyles for this upcoming week, Bad Guys or main title. But if not this week, I'm sure we'll get it 5/21, as that HAS been the pattern in recent months. And hey, that's when the next Birds of Prey comes out, so I can kill two birds with one stone. (No pun intended....)
Meg
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 6:17:19 pm EDT from 138.16.28.211

Phil> Are you sure about that? My comic store says that it is coming out next week, but the Diamond website has Gargoyles #3 instead of Gargoyles Bad Guys #3 and so that's what they listed it under...
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"God is dead."--Neitche "Neitche is dead."--God
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 4:40:14 pm EDT from 68.164.224.23

I think they actually said "lock, stock, and barrel" about the castle in an early Smallville ep. And Gargoyles was the first thing that popped into my mind.
Matt H
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 4:26:18 pm EDT from 98.192.208.157

Sorry to bring bad news on a beautiful Friday afternoon, but I just got my weekly e-mail from my comic store. It lists the titles that are coming out next week, and Bad Guys #3 is not there. (Of course this is only disappointing because of the rumors that it might be out on the 14th. We should be very happy if it comes out by 5/28.)
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 4:25:36 pm EDT from 134.215.196.82

Anthony> Smallville I did see...and I thought of Xanatos and Wvyern too. I wonder if the writer of that Smallville episode is a (gargoyles) fan. (because of the Illuminati-esque connection as well)

Patrick> What was the CSI connection?

Algernon> Thanks
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"God is dead."--Neitche "Neitche is dead."--God
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 2:23:55 pm EDT from 68.164.224.23

Anyone watch Smallville? It was discovered last night that the castle that Lex lives in was moved to Kansas by Lionel Luther from Scotland brick by brick. It reminded me of Gargoyles.
The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Anthony Tini
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 2:14:05 pm EDT from 159.240.11.254

Chip> Your probably onto something there, when I first heard about the Stone of Destiny arc I suspected Greg might use it as a sort of lead into a possible Pendragon miniseries.
Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 1:00:59 pm EDT from 149.157.1.180

Patrick> I haven't been watching new episodes of "CSI" so do tell.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 12:42:27 pm EDT from 209.6.248.33

So did anyone besides me catch the connection to "Gargoyles" in last night's episode of "C.S.I."?

Seven weeks (49 days) left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Dying is easy. Comedy... is hard." - Gil Grissom, "C.S.I."
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 12:38:44 pm EDT from 75.60.228.145

Just my two cents on the whole spinoffs issue.

Greg said some time ago, that he was doing Bad Guys now, because that was the Story that needed to be told now. That the tales of Dingo, Matrix, Yama, Fang, and Robyn have some signifigance on the Gargoyles Universe--perhaps in the grand scheme--and that's why we're getting them--and also why Pendragon is next, because it's the story that needs to be told after BGs. I don't think it is a coincidence that The Rock, Rock & Roll, and The Rock of Ages are all being told before The Gate, The Tyrant, and The Phoenix.
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"God is dead."--Neitche "Neitche is dead."--God
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 12:17:08 pm EDT from 68.164.224.23

Matt> *nod* That's entirely possible. The genes for digit number on the hands, feet, and wings are obviously not directly connected and could all be in different places on the chromosome (or even on different chromosomes, though I find this less likely). Perhaps the one that determines hand digit number is connected to something else important, and a baby with that gene changed has a high chance of being stillborn. Though it's not purely fatal, as the two you mentioned obviously survived.

And I agree on size and wing morphology being connected. Certain wing shapes do not work for a larger gargoyle, and others require a good bit of muscular support and thus a larger frame. I wanna see the family tree, though. Can you put it where we can have a look (either in here or link to it)?
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth-dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 11:00:26 am EDT from 216.57.96.1

Kerry> I agree with your assesment for the most part. As for gargoyle hands, I think that falls into the category of things the chameleon mutation gene or whatever just can't touch. It usually isn't a variable. That said, there is a member of the Ishimura Clan that has only one thumb and two fingers per hand and the more I look at Lunette, the more I think she may have a total of only three digits as well.

Another evolutionary trait may be size. Adult gargoyles can be as large as Goliath or as small as Lexington. I think the genes for size are largely linked to the wing genes. Gargoyles with powerful wings like Goliath's grow to larger sizes than those like Lexington or the little green gargoyle of Demona's Clan whose wings are much weaker in terms of surface area and support and therefore these gargoyles only grow so large. So I don't think you'd see a Goliath-sized gargoyle with Lexington's wings or vice versa.

And speaking of wings and evolution, I've worked out a neat plan for how the wings of gargoyles first developed and the "family tree" incorporating nearly every wing type seen in the series to date.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 10:49:36 am EDT from 70.237.249.216

Matt> Agreed. The local human populations would have been a powerful selective force, and at this point the legends are a big chicken and egg situation. The chameleon gene provides the foundation for the visible traits, and the legends provide the selective pressure for gargoyles who exhibit certain sets of traits. Thus the "pure" resemblance of some of the gargoyles, though I'm sure certain mixes were overlooked even initially, since I doubt the humans were minutely examining the gargs (for example: a stag with solid or boarlike hooves, or a horse with cloven ones).

Though I am wondering why all gargoyle hands (as far as I remember) have the same number of fingers despite the number of digits on the feet and/or wings.

Anyway, perhaps the legends were originally inspired by particular gargoyles, which formed the basis for human reverence of certain animal forms (and thus the selective pressure once the human population turned aggressive). Perhaps humans made the legends up (we seem to be as fond of imagination as exaggeration), gargoyle sightings "confirmed" the stories, and only those who fit the descriptions were spared. Or maybe a little of both.

But I think even the malefic stories could have had a basis (or support) in actual gargoyles. As much as we'd like to consider gargs to be the "good guys," Demona could not have been the only one with a homicidal antipathy toward humans. Also, it's quite possible that an otherwise benign gargoyle with a head injury could go crazy and attack humans before the sun rose and it could heal.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth-dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 10:41:18 am EDT from 216.57.96.1

To be fair though, isn't every fictional creature really just a combination of two or more real life creatures stuck together like a pile of lego? Even somthing really out there like Cthulhu is just a big fat guy with an octopus for a head.
Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 10:39:41 am EDT from 149.157.1.180

But even from a hard, scientific, biological perspective these forms are not unrealistic.

And though we have yet to see a peryton-like gargoyle, I'd imagine the look does exist, if not the demeanor. This is just another mix. Deer-like with eagle-like in this case. So many of these mythical forms exist and in the Gargoyles Universe at least I suspect the legends began with this clan, or possibly it was the other way around and the Clan evolved to resemble the legends through human selection or Greg's chameleon mutation gene.

I think it goes without saying that the English, who we know were pretty rough on their gargoyle populations, would probably be much less likely to destroy a gargoyle that resembles a heraldic being than a gargoyle that resembles a demon. So, over time I imagine only the heraldic gargoyles survived. Looking like a unicorn or lion or whatever gave you a better chance of survival in England. Thus, the English gargoyles.
2000 years ago, English gargoyles may have more closely resembled Scottish gargoyles.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 9:07:17 am EDT from 70.237.249.216

Perytons would be horribly inappropriate as a source for Staghart because of their vicious nature, but I'd already suspected that Greg had the white stag of legend in mind when he came up with the character (especially since white stags often turn up in Arthurian romance).

I don't worry about the appearance of the London clan (or other gargoyles) from a biological perspective, anyway. I suspect that the artists were approaching the character design from a fantasy art angle, rather than from hard science fiction.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 8:50:47 am EDT from 4.244.210.71

Matt: I don't know about Constance.. but there are legendary white stags called Peryton..

see here..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peryton

also ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_stag

Heraldic winged lions..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_%28heraldry%29
Starlioness
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 8:43:45 am EDT from 24.18.247.8

"Bad Guys" probably interested me least of all the spin-offs because it sounded the closest to conventional action-adventure, but even so, I've enjoyed the first two issues. It is, after all, set in the Gargoyles Universe, involves familiar characters (many of whom, such as Dingo and Yama, intrigued me), and is well-told.

* WARNING - CONTAINS SPOILERS *

The only real problem I've had with the two issues so far is that we already knew (from Greg's talks on it) the basics. So, for example, I wasn't surprised by the plot of #2, because I already knew that Yama had been banished from Ishimura, that Hunter would recruit him for the Redemption Squad, threatening to expose his clan to the world if he didn't cooperate, and that Sevarius would break Fang out of the Labyrinth. So the only big surprise was discovering Fang's real name. But I think that the character moments (Yama's parting with Sora - especially the look on his face when he tells her that she can't go into exile with him, Matrix's multiple heads all reporting, Dingo's alarm at discovering they're headed back to a city where he's a wanted felon and Hunter's cool response, etc.) have made up for that.

* END OF SPOILERS *

I hope that "Pendragon" will still be made, but we'll have to wait and find out.

Speaking of "Pendragon", the local public television station here in St. Louis showed a production of "Camelot" last night, starring Gabriel Byrne (who played the part of Uther Pendragon in "Excalibur") as Arthur and Christopher Lloyd as King Pellinore. I enjoyed it - though I wonder what the Arthur of the "Gargoyles" Universe would have made of it. I wonder if he's found out about it yet; we do know that he's already discovered Malory, but we don't know what other takes on his story he's learned about. (I sometimes wonder what his response must be to "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, May 9, 2008 8:00:38 am EDT from 4.244.208.2

Just reading the latest responses, and I noticed that this guy ( http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10462 ) asked not to have his address shown. Kind of silly to post it in a question, but still, maybe it could be removed?
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 10:48:39 pm EDT from 69.112.108.43

London Clan> You say Old Pog is stilled derived from a mythical creature or whatever, and maybe thats true, but what about Leo or Constance or Staghart, I don't recall any of their heraldic analogues having WINGS. Anyway, there are reasons the London Clan gargoyles evolved to look this way. Greg Weisman has his theories, including the chameleon mutation gene, and I have theories of my own regarding selective pressures by humans, but the real deal is that, as Greg has said, we should use less energy criticizing the look of the clan and more energy finding an explanation for it. It is more fun anyway.

UncleDeadly> The London Clan is without a doubt a large clan. And in 1996, they certainly outnumber the Manhattan, Labyrinth, Mayan and Avalon Clans combined, but I doubt they are the majority of gargoyles left. The Ishimura Clan is a full clan and quite likely even larger than the London Clan. And besides them, there is the New Olympian, Loch Ness, Pukhan and Xanadu Clans to consider and we have no reason to believe they are not large clans as well.

Spin-offs> Personally I've always been most interested in Dark Ages, though 2198 fascinates me too. I like the ideas of Pendragon, Bad Guys and Timedancer pretty equally. New Olympians is probably last, but I'm sure I'd love it too. Frankly, I'd enjoy any of these spin-offs and any others Greg would write based in the Gargoyles Universe. How could I not like one? So, yeah, generalizations about an overall fan ranking is pretty useless since none exists. I've seen fans make their preferred order in nearly every combination.

And speaking of generalizations, I've heard several fans in here lately making generalizations about who the fandom thinks does the best art. Now, I think Karine's artwork is fantastic. No doubt. But I've always been a fan of Hedgecock and he has only improved. I know several fans who prefer Hedgecock over Karine. They are both very talented and I'm pleased they are our two main artists right now.
I find it a little hypocritical that some people in this Room would berate a fan for making generalizations about the fandom's favorite spin-offs when they themselves make similiar generalizations about the fandom's favorite artist.

Oh yeah, to finish on a light-hearted note I have to say that Greg's response to his script-writing is lol-hilarious! Good stuff.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 10:06:49 pm EDT from 70.237.249.216

Here's hoping my attempt at organizing my chaotic thoughts into a logical pattern is semi-sucessfull.

**Bg Spoilers**

My Review of Bad Guys #2

I really loved it. Everything, especially the cover. The story starts where the last one left off. Very interesting. I'm looking forward to seeing how their 1st mission together turns out. I didn't catch the cameo of Vinnie and the others at first. The flashback showing Yama's banishment is great.

That Yama is his own judge for when he can return to his clan speaks volumes for his character. Characters with that much integrity are as rare as diamonds and I'm thankfull you included one like that in a primary role in a spin-off.

I do hope that by the time the next gargoyles breeding season comes Yama will have found his redemption. The battle to get Yama's attention is quite good and realistic. It's great that Yama knows English. Question is does an entire clan speak English that well? It's nice to see Hunter come clean about wasting her past. (I do have a cat named Hunter. She once stole a mouse from a snake, but that's another story.) It's interesting that Matrix doesn't comprehend the problem with a gargoyle serving a gargoyles hunter. Dingo's reaction to going back to New York City is authentic, but shouldn't he realize that it's just as dangerous for Hunter to return them? In this sense, I'm glad that you haven't told the story of how Hunter was recruited as it would spoil the upcoming story.

Robyn Canmore's revelation that Dingo was recruited to get Matrix is incredible. Only a small handful of people around the world can possibly know about Matrix. Also only a small number of people around the world can possibly know about the Ishimuran clan. When I stop to consider the intersection of those two groups, I'm perplexed because it can only describe a much smaller set than those two groups. That leads me to believe whomever Hunter is working for has to be extremely well-connected and/or possessing Sherlock Holmes type of intelligence.

Back to New York, it shouldn't surprise me that Dr Sevarius was keeping tabs of his former experiments, but it did. I was wondering how Fang was going to be 'liberated' and know I see. At last, we learn Fang's real name.

Overall excellent story-telling. You keep throwing more things to consider along with answering questions. I am really looking forward to the next issue.

**End Bg #2 spoilers**
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 10:01:02 pm EDT from 98.20.186.181

We've got another idea masquerading as a question here...

http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10598
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In 1977, George Lucas' "Star Wars" was released, and the intellectual and art side of filmmaking and filmgoing has been scattered to the four winds ever since."
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 9:53:37 pm EDT from 75.56.245.4

I apologize for the generalization. I'll be more careful in the future.

However, rather than zooming in on a fairly insignificant part of what I'm saying, I'd rather focus on the meat-and-potatoes of what I said, which is basically that the performance of one spin-off ought not prevent others from being made, if it's financially feasible for SLG.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 9:49:53 pm EDT from 216.45.251.210

Rebel: Yeah, it might be wise to avoid making such generalizations. I was excited when I first heard about this spin-off, largely because of its the subject matter. Villains have always been more appealing to me than heroes. Heck, I even like it when my heroes are less than perfect (good examples of this in movies that I enjoy are Snake Plissken in "Escape From New York" and Clint Eastwood's character of the Man With No Name). There's a guilty pleasure in a character who would bring a gun to a knife fight, and THEY'RE supposed to be the protagonist, the one you're rooting for.

To be honest, Timedancer was fourth on my list after Bad Guys, Pendragon, and Dark Ages.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I do not apologize, old man!" -Norman Osborn ("Spectacular Spider-Man").
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 9:25:42 pm EDT from 76.123.52.7

I've heard of he Rory/Molly series spoken of a few time. When did Greg come up with the idea. And was there any details divulge on it like the other spinoffs?
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 9:20:06 pm EDT from 71.115.218.75

Rebel> From what you've read where? One or two, or even six opinions does not mean you have an opulent gauge of what the fandom is interested in.

All of my close friends in this fandom placed "Bad Guys" very high on their spin-off wish list. And then there's Aaron, who has the unnamed Rory/Molly spin-off as his top pick.

So, please, stop with your sweeping generalizations.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In 1977, George Lucas' "Star Wars" was released, and the intellectual and art side of filmmaking and filmgoing has been scattered to the four winds ever since."
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 9:01:44 pm EDT from 75.56.245.4

Hmm, interesting. From what I've read, it seems like most people are not too interested in Bad Guys, but are absolutely thrilled about Timedancer.

Well, regardless of which ones are the most popular and which ones are the least popular, my original point still stands. I hope that future spin-offs aren't given a chance just because one spin-off didn't do as well as hoped...granted, I realize that SLG may simply be unable to afford to take another risk, but if they're able to, I hope they do.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 8:47:48 pm EDT from 216.45.251.210

I think the very nature of BAD GUYS makes it kind of polarizing. Because of the subject matter, it's a concept that people are either going to really get behind or really not. Hence it's probably Spinoff #1 on half the fandom's list, and Spinoff #5 on the other half's.
Meg
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 8:27:02 pm EDT from 138.16.28.211

I always wanted to see Bad Guys as a spin off before any of the other spin offs (maybe Timedancer tied with it though...)
Charisma82
"It's better to have a horrible ending than to have horrors without end."
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 8:22:46 pm EDT from 64.13.117.74

REBEL> <<Bad Guys seemed to be the least popular of the spin-off ideas...at least, based on what I've read from fans online.>>

Not at all based on who I've talked to.

It was actually always my second pick, right behind 2198.

I know it was Jennifer L. Anderson's first pick.
Revel's too.

If anything, "New Olympians" is probably the least popular.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In 1977, George Lucas' "Star Wars" was released, and the intellectual and art side of filmmaking and filmgoing has been scattered to the four winds ever since."
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 6:28:59 pm EDT from 75.56.245.4

Spin-offs > I certainly hope that sales for Bad Guys are not used as an indicator of whether or not other spin-offs should be made. Bad Guys seemed to be the least popular of the spin-off ideas...at least, based on what I've read from fans online. If the spin-offs had started with a different one, sales might have been better. So, I hope Pendragon, Timedancer, etc., at least get a chance, even if Bad Guys didn't do as well as hoped. That doesn't mean future spin-off sales might not be a little better.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 6:17:22 pm EDT from 216.45.251.210

London Clan: Course, what I find interesting is that based on current canonical knowledge, the London clan is by far the majority stock of all gargoyles. Scottish stock has 50ish, Mayan has 4 (plus CIT eggs), Japanese we've only seen about 12-15 members of that clan. We've got 190+ English stock gargoyles. So unless one of the four CIT clans is larger, English may be the current "Norm" for Gargoyle appearance.
UncleDeadly
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 5:05:35 pm EDT from 128.114.181.147

I don't care who they get to do Pendragon. I just want to hear the news that it is coming and more importantly Gargoyles #13.
The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Anthony Tini
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 4:08:27 pm EDT from 159.240.11.254

Why are we talking like there is going to be a "Pendragon" comic? Does everyone here know something I don't, I didn't think that the sales on "Bad Guys" was good enough to warrant "Pendragon". Or am I just talking about stuff I know nothing about? (I hope I'm talking about stuff I know nothing about...I'd love to see "Pendragon" come out.)
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable. -- C.S. Lewis
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 2:54:43 pm EDT from 68.164.2.214

@ Matt: Pog isn't really a departure from the London Clan norms, because he also resembles something "mythological".

@ Rebel: I actually like antrho animal designs as long as they're tasetful and don't put hair and boobs on non-mammals....if there is any problem with the London Clan it is that it's hard to wrap one's head around at first, a sub-type of gargoyle that so closely resemble other animals, real or imagined. And it does seem a little too convenient that they always come out so closely resembling a real or mythological animal.

(note that I'm talking about a viewpoint from *outside* the gargoyle universe)
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 2:14:14 pm EDT from 142.13.23.73

Latest Ask Greg response to the question about script format:

Best. Script. Ever.

I think it should be drawn for a feature in an uncoming trade explaining how the comic is made.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 1:46:29 pm EDT from 209.6.248.33

wait...so wat happened last week?
reaper
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 1:25:56 pm EDT from 70.234.205.134

Todd: True ,but remember Hudson said when Goliath and co.. return from the train incidient.. welcome back Lads and Lassie.. (or something to that effect)..

Matt: well, the Library ordered it.. though I think the hard-cover could be just Library binding.. but it's listed as a Graphic Novel.. which I think is kinda cool.. :)
Starlioness
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 12:49:18 pm EDT from 24.18.247.8

Karine> Ah well, just thought I'd check and see if you knew anything we didn't about the license status, but I guess we'll have to keep waiting. if you hear anything before the general fandom does, please let us know!

And of course we'll miss your artwork on "Pendragon," but it's totally understandable that other priorities - especially family - come first. I won't bug you for hints on the possible artist for "Pendragon" because I know you're probably not at liberty to say much when it's not a sure thing and I wouldn't want to put any other artist who might get the job in the position of feeling like a less than equal substitute for someone the fans would have really loved to see. But I hope you will tell us once the artists is announced if it's the person you were talking about. (If it happens to be someone with the initials "G.G." and it does happen, I'll be running around my house squealing like an exicted four year old.)
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 11:32:18 am EDT from 209.6.248.33

"love to have you as the main artist on every Gargoyles book that comes out"

Ditto. Hedgecock is okay, but Karine is just spectacular. :)
Rebel
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 11:15:29 am EDT from 216.45.251.210

Hey Karine! Wanna give us any clues (or just tell us outright :P) who this mystery artist is that was interested in doing Pendragon?

I know I'm not the only one who'd love to have you as the main artist on every Gargoyles book that comes out, but we know that's not humanly possible, and of course you have to have a life outside of work. But do you think there's a possibility that maybe down the line you might do another guest spot on the main book?

P.S. I can't tell you enough how much I'm enjoying Bad Guys, the artwork (and the storytelling, obviously) are top-notch. Keep up the incredible work!
Ricky
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 10:56:55 am EDT from 70.19.83.81

<i>I wonder if we get to Pendragon is Karine will continue to be the main artist.
</i>

No. No no no. I am taking a break, guys. After Bad Guys is done, I'm going to concentrate on the day job and enjoy the fact that I'll have free time.

Later on, if/when we get to Timedancer or another Bad Guys story, I'll put my name in, but I've been working multiple jobs for several years and I honestly, truly, need a break. My kids are little and require my attention, and I also have personal projects that are itching to be made into reality, so I'm going to concentrate on that for a little while.

As for the artist on Pendragon... When it was discussed a year and a half ago, someone I know put their hand up to work on the title. It was a while ago, and their schedule might or might not permit it now... but if they can do it, I'm going to be VERY HAPPY. And so will you.
Karine
4 down, 2 to go...
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 9:44:16 am EDT from 69.70.38.18

Todd> An additional benefit to Arthur and Griff checking Tintagel and Stonehenge in the course of the series (as opposed to their trips to those locations just being mentioned in passing) is that it would be an excellent opportunity to have flashbacks explaining the particular significance of such places in Arthur's past. We may know generally what happened at Tintagel, but we don't know the specifics of what happened there in the Gargoyles universe (and there may even be some people who read the comics and have little or no familiarity with Arthurian legend). We know what happened at Tintagel is true, but we don't know how accurate the versions we've heard are.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 9:16:02 am EDT from 209.6.248.33

If we do get the "Pendragon" spin-off, I wonder when it'll be set. During the interim between "Pendragon" (the television episode) and the Stone of Destiny story currently in the comics, when Arthur and Griff were searching for Merlin "in all the obvious places", or after the events of the Stone of Destiny story? (Or maybe even a little of both, the way that the "Bad Guys" spin-off is switching back and forth between the Redemption Squad's foundation and the present-day mission.)

We might get some flashbacks to the "obvious places", of course. We know that Greg had planned for Arthur and Griff to search for Merlin at Tintagel and Stonehenge, which both qualify as "obvious places", and we know that Tintagel has a strong significance for Greg - which would give him an incentive to write about Arthur and Griff visiting it. (We also know that it's the real-life model for Castle Wyvern.)

Incidentally, I checked Roger Lancelyn Green (Greg's primary source for the Arthurian cycle) for a list of other places that Merlin might have been at. Green lists these as "the magic Forest of Broceliande... the Isle of Bards in Cornwall Crag... beneath the Wood of Bragdon".

Broceliande is (or was) a forest in Brittany; it's often described as the site of Merlin's imprisonment by Nimue (in an invisible tower made of air), including Tennyson, so it would be another of the "obvious places". In the six months between the start of their quest and their meeting with Macbeth, Hudson, and Lexington in London, Arthur and Griff just might have had the opportunity to get across the Channel and back to search Broceliande.

The "Isle of Bards" is probably Bardsey Isle, where Merlin is said to be asleep in a house of glass (his crystal cave?) surrounded by the Thirteen Treasures of Britain and Arthur's throne - though I'm not certain where the "Cornwall Crag" part comes from, since Bardsey is off the coast of northern Wales.

As for the "Wood of Bragdon", Greg wouldn't be able to send Arthur and Griff to look for Merlin there, since it's not an actual mythical place (and therefore in the public domain), but the creation of C. S. Lewis, who wrote a fantasy novel entitled "That Hideous Strength" about Merlin sleeping in a wood by that name (and being sought by an Illuminati-style organization - only far more villainous than the Illuminati of the Gargoyles Universe - though he helps the protagonists defeat them, instead, when he awakens). Roger Lancelyn Green and C. S. Lewis were close friends, so Green must have included that bit as a tribute - but it wouldn't be able to get into the "Pendragon" spin-off any more than, say, Narnia could.

We also know that Arthur and Griff were to search for Merlin at the South Pole - that would have to come after the Stone of Destiny adventure, partly because the South Pole is definitely *not* one of the "obvious places", partly because I don't think that there would have been time enough for Arthur and Griff to get to Antarctica and back during the period between their meeting in May 1996 and the current events of "Gargoyles" in November of that year.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 8:17:22 am EDT from 4.244.215.56

Starlioness> HARD-cover?! Where'd you get it in hard cover?

As for variations among the London Clan, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Griff-like gargoyle with pointed ears like Una, Staghart or Constance. Most gryphons in heraldry have long pointed ears. I'm sure Una's pointed horn could show up on any number of variations. The coolest London gargoyle I ever drew was a biological son of Leo and Una. He was lion-esque with Leo's mane and facial features and his mane was tan like Leo's, but the rest of his coloring was white/purple/pink like Una's and he had Una's horn and pointed ears. I didn't draw down to his feet or tail, but he could've gone either way (lion or horse) and looked fine. I'm sure as more London Clan gargoyles are revealed, we'd see more variation among the traits we've seen so far. Old Pog is just the beginning.
Anyway, one more reason to hope for a Pendragon spin-off, since I imagine the London Clan would show up more there then anywhere else (after Issue #9 anyway).

I wonder if we get to Pendragon is Karine will continue to be the main artist.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 7:58:50 am EDT from 70.237.249.216

D'oh. I must have had a brain fart there.

I can't pictured Dominique Destine on a Segway. Have those become anything more than a novelty yet?

50 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 7:02:12 am EDT from 99.161.129.188

STARLIONESS - Actually, we already got "Lassie" in #8, when Hudson calls out to the other gargoyles, during the battle with Xanatos's robots "Take to the sky, lads and lassie!"
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 6:49:38 am EDT from 4.244.215.56

London Clan: I think it's also possible we might see Hippogriff Gargoyle with a horn..but that's probably just speculation.. I also wonder if we'll meet a character named Lassie later in the comics.. but, who knows..

on a different note.. my Library just recieved 4 copies of the Clan-Building paper-back or rather Hard-cover (as that's the one I have) Trade..

I'm really enjoying it. even though I have the other comics.. (though my #5 is a little ripped). it really does read like a graphic novel..

great description of the show on the back cover.. I wonder who did the drawing of Goliath.. can't tell if it's Hedgecock's or someone else's..

but anyway it's not that often you see Goliath smiling on covers... but oh well..

I also never thought of Chernabog as a possible Gargoyle.. hmm.
Starlioness
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 4:03:44 am EDT from 24.18.247.8

That's just wrong, but in a good way. The gum bit came from an episode of Smallville I record which was pretty much a 40 minute gum commercial for Stride. As for the show itself, I'm pretty much with the viewers that believe the show started out well, but watch for guilty pleasure and curiousity as to how things play out.

But back to the topic I made, I'm sure Nightstone would make gum where the flavor doesn't last too long.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 3:02:28 am EDT from 71.115.218.75

Antiyonder -- How about segways (those two-wheeled-scooters-that-seem-to-defy-gravity things)? I can TOTALLY see Dominique riding one of those around the office :P
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, May 8, 2008 12:37:34 am EDT from 157.242.215.228

Wonder what other products Nightstone would be involved with. Chewing gum perhaps?
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 10:46:36 pm EDT from 71.115.218.75

Ugh, I meant Robyn Canmore... that was her quote.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In 1977, George Lucas' "Star Wars" was released, and the intellectual and art side of filmmaking and filmgoing has been scattered to the four winds ever since."
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 10:25:21 pm EDT from 75.56.245.4

PATRICK>

"This woman, Dominique Destine, has never been seen at night, and as you can see, she and the demon share identical, muscular structure, it can't be a coincidence."
- Dominique Destine
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In 1977, George Lucas' "Star Wars" was released, and the intellectual and art side of filmmaking and filmgoing has been scattered to the four winds ever since."
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 10:24:55 pm EDT from 75.56.245.4

Todd > How would Castaway know who owns that company?
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 10:18:57 pm EDT from 99.161.129.188

Rebel: I've actually never had that problem, nor have I heard of it. But then, I haven't seen Bambi since I was ten. However, I have seen Peter Jackson's "Meet the Feebles," which was simultaneously great and terrible.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I do not apologize, old man!" -Norman Osborn ("Spectacular Spider-Man").
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 10:15:11 pm EDT from 76.123.52.7

Hmmm, just fyi, I was making the comment below as a *generalization*, not saying it applies towards EVERYONE who dislikes anthro-animal characters. I'm sure there are some people who just dislike the aesthetic, regardless of the furry stigma.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 7:56:44 pm EDT from 216.45.251.210

I think any dislike that people may harbor towards "furry-looking characters" has less to do with anything bad about the design themselves, and more to do with the stigma towards furries. As an example, that old Disney move Robin Hood came out before the furry subculture arose, and nobody really thought anything negative about that movie. Now when people see it, they often think "Furries! BLEGH!"...and this happens with other movies too, as if any design with an anthropomorphized animal automatically means it is "furry".
Rebel
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 7:43:43 pm EDT from 216.45.251.210

That Freakazoid! lawn gnomes ep is on the up and coming Season 1 DVD set-which will be released July 29th:
http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Freakazoid-Season-1-Rear-Box-Art/9476
Wingless
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 7:39:25 pm EDT from 99.245.254.123

A thought on Karine's paragraph on Dingo's coffee cup:

That means he's not drinking from a Nightstone's cup. Then again, I doubt that Hunter would bring *anything* manufactured by Nightstone Unlimited aboard the Redemption Squad's helicopter. I think that we can safely assume, for that matter, that if Castaway drinks coffee, it's definitely not going to be from Nightstone's either.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 7:19:30 pm EDT from 4.244.212.110

London Clan: That bothers me about their design as well. It didn't at first when I focused mostly on Griff and Una, since I don't tend to associate mythological animals with furries. I was really hoping that if Lex became interested in any of the London gargs, that it would have been a dragon or something similar that would sort of look like a garg from some other region. I'm not personally fond of furry character designs, so upright stags and lions put me off a little. Amp is cool though, I'm enjoying him so far, just not his design. Coco's design doesn't bother me as much doe some reason.

Then again Lex is sort of a bat/lizard/ape thing. Meh, I'm put off when a specific, real life animal is the base of a design.

It's all good for people who do like furry characters I suppose. I need to push the book on some of my furry fanatic friends.
Tabby
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 6:59:45 pm EDT from 72.77.244.211

Incisivis> Re: London Clan> Old Pog is a mix, so is Griff for that matter.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 6:43:47 pm EDT from 70.237.249.216

*Chuckle* thanks Warcrafter.
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable. -- C.S. Lewis
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 5:36:18 pm EDT from 68.164.224.13

Hey guys. I was on youtube and stumbled across a mini cartoon segment from Freakazoid which I believe is a rather obvious spoof of Gargoyles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSQWx8X8WHk

Watching this made my day :)
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
H2O Goliath will woop your ass
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 4:22:09 pm EDT from 69.231.215.165

Wow. Okay, I haven't been in here in a while, and have some things to catch up on.

Karine: You do good work; a TV series comic needs a "show-accurate" style. I hope your family's doing better now, too. (and I also enjoy your fanart--we need some beaked females in canon, but I love Coraly, too)

London Clan: I suppose what bothers me the most is that they always come out looking like "furry" gargoyles, and not any stranger hybrid forms.

Bad Guys 2: Loved it. It gives Yama much more depth, and what it sets up looks to be very interesting.

Comics review: Yeah, it is true that a book should try to reach for as wide an audience as possible, but when this is meant to be a *continuation* of a TV series, things become much more slippery. Still, I can see where one would think that was a problem.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 2:36:41 pm EDT from 142.13.128.2

Just a reminder, Gathering 2008 pre-registration ends in about a month, so sign up now to get the best membership rates! Guests joining us this year include Greg Weisman, Thom Adcox, Keith David, Karine Charlebois, and Josh Silver. We also have a special event on Friday night, a jazz concert by Keith David!

Evenif you absolutely can't attend, please consider supporting the convention with a Supporting Membership or by ordering a T-shirt or a copy of the Items of Enchantment Anthology.

51 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 12:58:27 pm EDT from 75.60.228.145

Hello, Karine. Great work on the comic. You are talented. :)
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 11:35:27 am EDT from 99.159.248.140

Rob asks about knock-offs of the Kenner Gargoyles figures line.
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10450

The answer is they were called "MONSTERS". They used a similar font and packaging to Gargoyles. There were sold mostly in Mexico, I believe. I've never seen one in person, but I have seen pictures of them online (although I can't find any right now).
Gorebash
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 11:12:55 am EDT from 207.206.236.230

Wow...Karine's here. You should be tickled, I personally feel (and I'm sure I'm not alone) that to date you are the best artist who has worked on the comic, it looks just like you pulled them from the TV show, and I even liked your depiction of Sora BETTER than the one in Bushido. The Yama/Sora scene was very powerful and that was largely the facial expressions that you did.
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable. -- C.S. Lewis
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 10:48:52 am EDT from 68.164.224.13

Hi, Karine! I actually caught human!Kanthara in my first reading of it. Glad all those cameos got in. Can't wait for the guest artist's work for number 3 and your work on 4.
Asatira
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 9:48:43 am EDT from 75.143.83.91

Demonskrye> Sorry, I'm not privvy to that information. We'll know when things get confirmed, but I wouldn't worry.

Thanks for the well-wishes. We're all fine now, and since winter is over, I hope it will keep evil things like strep and colds and flus away from us. ;)
Karine
4 done, 2 to go...
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 8:52:31 am EDT from 70.83.161.98

Hi Karine. Thanks for stopping by the room. I hope your family is past their illnesses. Thank you for the additional tidbits on the comic and some additional confirmation of the speedy release date of BG #3. One question, if you're able to answer it: Do you know anything about the status of the license renewal? I think the last we heard was that Dan Vado had expressed his desire to renew the "Gargoyles" license to Disney and Disney hadn't responded yet. Anything new?

Thanks for all your hard work on the comic.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 7:51:12 am EDT from 209.6.248.33

Thanks for stopping by, Karine! And thanks for all the "behind-the-scenes" information you gave us!
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 7:02:05 am EDT from 4.244.214.80

London Clan> I was never really bothered by the idea of the London Clan all being all variations on the main three themes. A talented artist could have mixed and matched them to get all kinds of interesting variations. When you think about it, weren't the Wyvern Clan all just variations on the same basic "bat winged, horned pseudo demon thingy" template.
Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 6:54:38 am EDT from 149.157.1.180

Hey guys,

I popped in to sneak a peak at your comments on BG#2. I am TICKLED PINK. I am incredibly flattered by your compliments on the comic and the art.

I also wanted to apologize for the delay. Okay, it spent a long time at Disney waiting for approval, but I also had trouble delivering on time due to sick kids and taking on more work than I could actually accomplish in the time I had. This is why Christopher Jones acted as fill-in artist for issue #3.

The reason why issue 3 is coming out so quickly after #2 is that the license has a limited time duration, and the LS has to be done within that time. So we're trying to catch up on the schedule.

In any case, I think you will enjoy Chris's art. I know I learned a lot from it, and my work on issue 4 is better for it. Just so you know, the art of issue 4 is finished, and the lettering is happening right now.

A few comments and responses about the cameos. Some months ago, I made a call for cameos in my LJ. There were a few people I knew I wanted to include -- Greg B, for example, because he's been a big help with finding references and screencaps -- but I needed more people to fill up panels. So, next to Greg and Mara, you'll see Adriana (Ginnonami) and Lanny Fields (Invisible Wolf) waiting for the bus. On the following page, where "Fred" greets the other inhabitants of the Labyrinth, there's a group of guys chatting in the back: these are my gaming buddies. You've noticed human!Kanthara in Tokyo, and Vinnie was in the script. Rene (damoclesangel) is in that page as well as he is really currently there.

Benny's "I believe" t-shirt is a complete invention on my part. I thought it was amusing. I'm glad you think so too.

The coffee Dingo is drinking is actually a nod to the place where I did most of issue #2: I spent my working days at Second Cup, a coffee shop chain. The logo on Dingo's cup is a flipped version of theirs.

Issue 4 will have more cameos, because I enjoy them far too much. For those going to the Gathering, the page will be shown in the art show.

About "how much is script and how much is artist interpretation": I'll ask Greg if I can post a page of script to show. My experience as a comic book artist is limited, but as a storyboard artist, spans over several years. Greg's scripts, in my opinion, are clear, to the point, and don't lose themselves in details the actual reader will never see. He writes in such a way that I have room to manoeuvre, but at the same time I seem to have an easy time getting what he wants and drawing it right.

About the review: Well, seeing as I'm two issues in front of you (three if you count the fact that I've read the script for issue 5), I know that his concerns about continuity and obscure character references will get resolved in the following issues. Plus, you should count on issues 3 and 5 of Gargoyles, the main book, as your refresher as to who Sevarius is, mostly in Al's telling to Shari. It's recent enough (and while yes, it should have come out months ago, the time frame is still recent) and I doubt people who are picking up Bad Guys aren't picking up Gargoyles as well.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something. I was planning on going to bed early to celebrate my being finished with issue 4, but the lure of s8 was too great...

OH YEAH! Come to the Gathering to learn more about Bad Guys and see original art and perhaps even bid on original pages! I'll be selling some of my pages.
Karine
4 down, 2 to go...
posted @ Wed, May 7, 2008 12:24:43 am EDT from 70.83.161.98

Bad Guys #2 was really good. I just love seeing the Gargs in comics; it's like getting holiday gifts throughout the year :D *goes to sketchbook pile and tries to decide which Gargoyles character pic to work on*
Bagpipes5K - [bagpipes5k2 at sbcglobal dot net]
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 10:54:52 pm EDT from 76.247.60.196

Speaking of nixing canon, hgas anyone ever heard of earlier versions of stories?

For example, an earlier outline for "Metamorphosis" had Derek actually soliciting the homeless to participate in a scientific experiment. It is an interest take, and I wish I could read the rest of that earlier version.
MJichael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 9:14:23 pm EDT from 75.142.107.240

I amde a Gargoyles action figure of a London gargoyle that looks like a winged heraldic bull. He is neat. I hope to see a bull/cow-gargoyle among the London Clan eventually.

As for Bad Guys #3, my only hope is that it isn't too soon after the last issue for the next to be released.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 9:10:55 pm EDT from 70.237.249.216

Gargoyles Bad Guys #3 on 5/14? I'm amazed, surprised, and a little apprehensive.
(The Gargoyles Pulse - updated Mondays)
~ Anthony Tini
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 9:05:45 pm EDT from 69.95.191.48

London Clan > DITTO! I REALLY disliked the idea of all the London Clanners looking like lions, griffins, and unicorns...there are so many other cool heraldry animals that could be included.

I'm still hoping maybe we'll get to see a London gargoyle that looks like a wolf or a fox.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 9:01:26 pm EDT from 216.45.251.210

It is not surprising that Greg nixed the idea that the London gargoyles only had three forms.

We never did see the entire clan in the series.
MJichael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 8:56:55 pm EDT from 75.142.107.240

London Clan> Another reason I disliked Greg's original plan was because it made the London gargoyles really bizarre by not having much variety. I mean, look at the Wyvern Clan, look at the variety of forms that existed within that one clan, to say that there are only three forms or so among a clan was just weird. Not like gargoyles at all. So, needless to say I was thrilled when we saw other forms and very happy that Greg changed his mind.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 7:39:41 pm EDT from 70.237.249.216

WARNING: POSSIBLE SPOILERS
There's one Canon-In-Training idea I'm glad that Greg nixed, and that was that the appearance of London gargoyles was limited to lions, griffins, and unicorns. They look better with more variety.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I do not apologize, old man!" -Norman Osborn ("Spectacular Spider-Man").
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 7:08:14 pm EDT from 76.123.52.7

* SPOILERS FOR "BAD GUYS" #2 *

I think that the problem with explaining for new readers who Sevarius is at the end of the comic is that Sevarius doesn't reveal who he is until the final panel. Explaining about him before that would kill the surprise, and explaining who he is in the final panel would make it too crowded.

* END OF SPOILERS *
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 6:58:23 pm EDT from 4.244.211.254

Maaybe I missed something-but what review are we talking about?
Wingless
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 6:56:48 pm EDT from 99.245.254.123

But the way I see it, the ending of BG#2 not only plays on the shock value to fans who recognize Sevarius, but ALSO works perfectly well simply as a cliffhanger/teaser for what's to come. The success of the writing does not depend on the reader knowing who Sev is. It's Yama's story. A reader completely new to anything Gargoyles could get what the issue alone is telling him.
- A ragtag team of baddies are on some kind of mission. One of them ditches the rest, another is in jeopardy.
- We get a flashback of the one that was in jeopardy. The writing and art fills in enough of the background so it's clear that he is banished and wants to redeem himself within the Bushido code.
- Then we see him meet the team as it exists so far, and he signs up.
- As a teaser, a NY doctor is mentioned. Then we see him sneak into a sewer and surprise the other guy who we saw ditch the team. He mentions meeting your maker, and it's not too hard to get the double meaning. The reader understands that Fang was "made" is some way or another and that this doctor did it.

The brand new reader has just a cool story about Yama, and he now knows that the next story will be about Fang. So he looks forward to it. That's pretty good if you ask me.

And to clarify what I meant when I mentioned my problem with the delay nitpick... It doesn't matter if he explained it or not. A review is only supposed to review to content of the comic. When's the last time Ebert wrote a review that said, "This is an okay movie, but it's only in 500 theaters, so you might not want to bother."
Matt H
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 6:30:24 pm EDT from 71.200.52.237

Demonskrye> I thought I was the only one who caught the 60s theme playing in Iron Man, but I didn't actually think about the 10 Rings bit you mentioned.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 3:10:13 pm EDT from 71.115.218.75

Demonskrye> True, his views are not invalid. I just wish he'd set up the article better. He doesn't really justify the comic being "unreadably bad," though he declares that it is.

He gives the delay and the price, which matter in terms of procuring further issues, but don't impact the actual content of the comic. He only gives one point of negative critique on the content: the continuity argument, which I do see the point of (though I hardly consider Sevarius to be "obscure," it is true that he's not in the majority of episodes/issues). It's possible that the story doesn't follow characters that he's a) very familiar with or b) particularly interested in. If this is the case, I can understand it; Bad Guys is one of my least favorite spinoffs (I do want the others to come out, so I'll still be getting it all anyway). Or perhaps there are other issues he has with the content - he sounded rather continually disappointed. But he doesn't say so, and if all I'd seen was this article, I'd still be wondering why it was so awful.

It is good that he had some positive feedback, though. I'm glad it wasn't all bad, and that he did enjoy Yama's story.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 2:47:39 pm EDT from 216.57.96.1

It's too bad he's giving the comic bad publicity, but at the same time, he's got a right to his opinions, and as long as we've still got the 1st amendment, he's got a right to state them. Who knows? Maybe if more casual, non-hardcore fans did reviews, that information could positively influence the comics?

Obviously there's not much that can be done about the price or the delays, but now that he mentions it, a tiny reminder squeezed in about who Sevarius is probably would have been useful to more casual fans. As a moderately "hardcore" fan, I have no problem recognizing even the most obscure characters, but I can see where the casual buyer might have trouble.

As far as the delays...maybe this will prompt something like devoting a little space in an upcoming edition of "Etched in Stone" to explain what causes them. Fans would likely be more forgiving if they knew what a tedious process it was. Obviously it couldn't be a disney blamefest or anything, because they wouldn't approve it, but still.

I think it would be great if everyone that bought the comics would watch the relevant DVD episodes or re-read pertinent back issues of the comic to understand what's going on. I also think it'd be great if they'd take action and try to find out on their own what's causing the delays, probably by finding their way here. But, unfortunately, lots of people are lazy, or casual. And lazy/casual people have money too....actually I'd say they have MOST of the money.

I am not familiar with the website that the review was posted to. Maybe someone could do a counter-review? Not specifically attacking/addressing his review but just talking about how awesome the comics are, briefly mentioning what causes the delays, and saying that it's well worth the price you pay....something like that maybe? I dunno, I never review things.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 2:44:14 pm EDT from 76.165.33.205

Potential Bad Guys #2 SPOILERS

While I admit it's not easy for us as serious "Gargoyles" fans to see the comics from the perspective of more casual or completely new fans, but I think I can see where this review is coming from. Though I may not feel that all of its points are valid for me personally, I don't think they are totally invalid.

First of all, the delays. I don't hold it against the reviewer that he hasn't researched why the comic has been delayed so frequently for so long. He says in the same paragraph where he brings it up that he doesn't care and to me, that thinking is not entirely unfair. From a reader's perspective, it doesn't really matter if there's a good reason for such delays or not. All that really matters is the end result: the readers have to wait longer than they should to read the next issue. I think we've said everything that needs to be said about the delays in here and there isn't really much that anyone can do about them, especially us as fans. But that doesn't mean that it isn't a problem that can potentially steer new readers away from the book.

Some of you seem to believe that the reviewer is saying that the comic is bad for using continuity, but I don't think that's the case. As we know, lots of mainstream superhero comics rely on continuity, some far too heavily. The problem comes when there are so many references back to stories from a long time ago that more casual fans feel totally lost. My two main worries about the book are the delays and the references to past material. Now it is certainly possible to have continuity where it's just a natural part of the story. You can even work in references that only your hardcore fans will get IF they don't end up being essential to the story. Now if you saw the "Iron Man" movie, it was perfectly OK if you didn't catch the 60s cartoon theme the two times it was used or know what the Ten Rings organization actually referred to because it wasn't important to the story. They were just little details for fans to pick up on that didn't call attention to themselves. In the comics, you have stuff like Terry Chung trick-or-treating with Billy and Susan or Mary and Finella showing up at the masque. If more casual fans are reading the book and doesn't recognize any of these characters, it's not a problem. They'll just see them as some kids trick-or-treating and two guests at the party and go on reading. Maybe if these characters show up again in more important roles, these readers will catch on, but it's not crucial that they do yet. The problem comes in situations where the casual reader is left thinking "I get the feeling that this is important and exciting, but I don't understand why." These are situations where we're seeing characters and situations we know and recognize the significance of, but other readers are baffled by. I actually have to agree that it's not really fair to expect all readers to be shocked and excited by Sevarius showing up when he hasn't been seen since issue #5 of the regular series (which came out last July) or at all in the spin-off. To us, it may seem almost unthinkable that more casual fans could forget who Sevarius is or wouldn't at least check their back issues to try to find out. But to most people, Sevarious is a character who appeared in about seven episodes of a more than 10 year old show (some of which aren't available on DVD), and even I can't say for certain where my copies of "Bash" and "Strangers" are right now.

Bringing up the price may be a low blow, but if it's unusually expensive in comparison to other black and white comics, that is a potential strike against it.

While I don't agree that the comic is outright bad because of its issues, I do recognize that there are issues with the comic that I may be more forgiving of as a somewhat hardcore fan. I do have to remember that most people aren't going to research why the comic is getting delayed or check a reference they don't get on the DVDs or YouTube or GargWiki. They just want to read the comic and enjoy it. I know fans like the comic, but I really have no idea how easy or hard it is for someone with passing or no familiarity with "Gargoyles" to get in to.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 2:04:09 pm EDT from 209.6.248.33

That review wasn't set up very well. I can understand someone who's never seen the series or read the main comic not knowing Sevarius, but who would *forget* him? And if he admits he can't be bothered to re-read #1 before reading #2 after such a long delay... *shakes head*
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 1:05:12 pm EDT from 216.57.96.1

Yeah, that review wasn't very responsible. There's no need to mention price or schedule in a review. Even worse, he brought up the schedule point as a negative while at the same time admitting that he doesn't know the explanation for it. This is sloppy and doesn't help the word of mouth.

That said, the other issues he brought up like heavy continuity and poorly set up cliffhanger, well I don't agree with them either. The Garg universe has ALWAYS thrived on continuity. And come on, it's a comic book. Almost all mainstream comics carry DECADES of history with them. That's the boat we're all in.
Matt H
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 1:00:24 pm EDT from 98.192.208.157

I was shocked this morning to find a review of BG#2 online at ComicBookResources (mostly shocked to see any reference to the Garg comics on a major comics website). Here is the review: http://comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=98

While not what I wanted to read in a review, the reviewer does have a couple points, especially about the reveal at the end being not set up well. I disagree that continuity heavyness was a problem in the series, it made it richer. At the same time, Greg has done a fair job of giving plenty of recaps (Garg#1 w/ Goliath, #3 with Al, #8 with Shari's coldstone story). And even in comics, writers don't pre-empt the big reveal of an obscure character with tons of recap or reminding. They fill it in afterwards normally.

What do you guys think?
UncleDeadly
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 11:41:26 am EDT from 128.114.181.147

Officer Morgan was one of the two candidates for the Double Date story all along, anyway.

One other possible change from canon-in-training might be the London clan. Originally, Greg had indicated that they'd all look like lions, unicorns, and griffons, but now there's at least one who looks like a wild boar and one who looks like a white stag.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 10:07:23 am EDT from 198.209.226.130

I don't recall the "New Olympians" spinoff as ever being dated as happening anytime near 1996. I think all Greg mentioned was that Xanatos was involved, though how old X was at the time was never told. I don't think "New Olympians" was ever "pushed back" so much as many fans just thought it'd happen sooner.
Frankly, I'm happy it'll happen a few years down the road and always hoped it would.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 9:39:16 am EDT from 70.237.249.216

Canon-in-Training to Canon> The only other two possible instances of the comic going in a different direction from the canon-in-training are the following:

- Elisa dating Morgan Morgan rather than Jason Canmore at the double date. This was kind of up in the air before the comic actually came out and made sense, due to the fact that Jason was not really physically or legally able to attend the masque.

- The whole "New Olympians" timeline being pushed back a decade or more. Again, the decision makes sense, given that we've already got plenty of material to deal with without throwing in the New Olympians making their existence known to he world.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 8:53:34 am EDT from 209.6.248.33

Come to think of it, so far, the comic has generally confirmed rather than denied "canon-in-training". We know that the following "canon-in-training" elements have become canon in the comics.

* WARNING - LIST MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS *

The Illuminati are behind the Quarrymen.

Goliath and Elisa have the Double Date with Delilah and Officer Morgan.

Goliath, Elisa, Angela, and Bronx meeting Coldstone in the Himalayas during the Avalon World Tour (maybe - depending on how truthful Shari was being at the time).

The London clan's country estate.

Female gargoyles lay three eggs in their lifetime. (Mentioned in the scene where it's revealed that the female gargoyles in the London clan only lay two eggs each in their lifetime, but three eggs is portrayed there as the biological norm.)

Dingo's real name is Harry Monmouth.

The Redemption Squad has been set up (so far) the same way that Greg Weisman said it was in his talks about "Bad Guys" (including such details as Hunter threatening to expose the Ishimura clan if Yama won't join).

* LIST WITH POTENTIAL SPOILERS ENDS *

So far, the only time that the comic has countered "canon-in-training" is when Duval was revealed in #5 to be one of the two Number Twos in the Illuminati, rather than the man at the very top of the pyramid. And even there, he has only one equal (Hemings) and one superior (whoever Number One is). And if the Number One slot is currently vacant, Duval doesn't have anybody above him in the Illuminati at present, so he *could* be the Society's leader, in that case.

We can be certain that issues #10 through #12 will also convert a lot of "canon-in-training" material we already know about Brooklyn's Timedancing into "canon" (including the very existence of the Timedancing, his meeting with Mary and Finella in the past, and his post-Timedancer family).
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 7:39:54 am EDT from 4.244.208.175

BG#2 Spoilers
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bluewyvern>And actually, what's funny about that (not that Dingo is aware of this) is that Hunter, too, is presumably still high on the NYPD's you-know-what list. I don't know that I think her bosses broke her out of jail a la Coyote and Dingo breaking out Jackal and Hyena (and Wolf, I believe), but I'd imagine the law enforcement would flip if they saw her casually walking down the street. So it's just as dangerous for her as it is for him.
Meg
posted @ Tue, May 6, 2008 1:04:51 am EDT from 138.16.28.211

Castaway=Canmore is only "canon-in-training"? O.O That seems a little...odd. I'd never thought of it before. I guess he hasn't been "unmasked" yet, but it seems so clear. It's not like the other canon-in-training where Greg could really change his mind and go another way...

#2 SPOILERS

But anyway, I'm really, really looking forward to seeing the family meeting up. Should be interesting. I'm looking forward to New York in general...when Dingo reacted to the news, my first thought was that he was worried about the gargoyles. Completely forgot about the human law!
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 11:50:39 pm EDT from 69.112.108.43

Meg> I think you hit it right on. I've had thoughts along that line for the past week, but you put it out there exactly right. Well put.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 11:38:12 pm EDT from 70.237.249.216

MEG> Totally agree.

This book is called BAD GUYS. Not GOOD GUYS. Our protagonists this time will indeed be a lot more ruthless.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In 1977, George Lucas' "Star Wars" was released, and the intellectual and art side of filmmaking and filmgoing has been scattered to the four winds ever since."
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 9:30:47 pm EDT from 75.56.245.4

Sorry for the double, spoilers for BG#2
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I just got my copy today, and in skimming through last week's comments, a big question seems to be "why the stick, if the carrot is all that's necessary?" My answer would be that it's still really the only way to ensure that Yama will toe the line. If Hunter (standing in for her bosses) didn't make it clear to him that he is serving as long as THEY want him to, he could just pack up after the first mission and be like "peace out boy scouts, I've redeemed myself!" Now, WE know that's not in his nature, but Hunter and her bosses don't. Also, what if they're ordered to blow up a building and he balks and completely ruins the mission because it's not in his redemption plan? It's a way of laying out the EXACT power dynamic, and the only way of fully ensuring he toes the line and does as he's told.
Meg
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 9:21:56 pm EDT from 138.16.28.211

Ohh, you're right. Thanks for clearing it up Matt, you're right, I projected two months as the time between the flashback's flashback and the flashback as well.
Meg
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 8:22:26 pm EDT from 138.16.28.211

Sorry for the double post,

but Meg, you are confused. The comic begins with the robot fight that is occuring in January, 1997. THEN we flashback to November, 1996 (Two Months Earlier). The banishment scene is from June, 1996 months before.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 8:11:26 pm EDT from 70.237.249.216

No, I think the banishment scene took place shortly after "Bushido" and then Yama fled to Tokyo and that is where Hunter, Dingo and Matrix encountered him in November, 1996. So Yama had already been on his own for a few months when he was recruited by the Redemption Squad. Basically there is a flashback inside the flashback in Bad Guys #2.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 8:09:18 pm EDT from 70.237.249.216

SLIGHT BG#2 SPOILERS
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Has anyone else noticed a slight problem with the timeline? Because Vinnie has been in Japan three days when Yama is recruited, we know his recruitment occurs November 7/8ish (unsure because I don't know off the top of my head the Date Line rules). "Two months ago" is therefore when he was banished, putting his talk with Sora and Kai in early September. But "Bushido" occurs in mid-June, according to the Timeline. Did it really take the Ishimura Clan two and a half months to decide on Yama's punishment, or did Greg just mess up the dates in TDIGUH? Because that's a might uncomfortable two and a half months for Yama if he was waiting for his punishment all that time....
Meg
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 8:05:16 pm EDT from 138.16.28.211

Even if the issue comes out a week later than Diamond has said (which would be easy to expect, after the cases of "Gargoyles" #8 and "Bad Guys" #2), that would mean that "Bad Guys" #3 would be coming out just three weeks after "Bad Guys" #2, which would certainly be great news.

I'm looking forward to this issue. For one thing, the preview description indicates that this will be where "Jon Canmore is Castaway" becomes canon rather than canon-in-training. And Hunter's interaction with her brothers should provide some great drama. (I'll also enjoy seeing more of how Greg Weisman's portrait of Castaway differs from the "Goliath Chronicles", after that scene in "Gargoyles" #3 where he's canny enough to forbid the Quarrymen to go around armed on Halloween night.)

* SPOILERS *

And, according to the preview a while back, there'll be the flashback to Demona in the catacombs. Just one more example of how Greg finds ways of including the rejected ideas eventually - along with Coco and Amp showing up in the "Gargoyles" comic book.

* SPOILERS END *
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 7:34:00 pm EDT from 4.244.214.123

Wow, so soon! This was unexpected.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 7:23:07 pm EDT from 75.143.83.91

DPH> Good job with the guess. Not saying there is a magic formula to it or anything, and it isn't even 100% that we'll have it on the 14th, but good for you for paying attention.

And for the record, I see nothing wrong with making guesses on when certain issues will appear in stores, as long as those guesses are noted as such and not passed off as "likely" or "probable" dates.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 7:14:27 pm EDT from 70.237.249.216

With my luck, gargoyles bad guys comic #3 will be delayed another week to actually be released on May 21st. Joy. Why is that a bad day? May 20 is an election day for me. 12 hours plus. I'm always exhausted the day after elections. Anyways, I've observed there's usually a 6 week gap between when the comic is sent to Disney and when it first appears on Diamond's list. Also, usually, the first time the comic shows up on Diamond's list, the following week the release date gets pushed back.

Speaking of reviews, I'll try to get my review of bg #3 up sometime this week.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 5:42:20 pm EDT from 98.20.186.181

May 14th -- Wow. Just . . . wow.

Here's to Diamond keeping that number next Monday :)

(leaves to study for Finals . . . but not before swiping a Nacho or two :D )
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 5:10:54 pm EDT from 157.242.219.150

Here's to May 14th's release of Gargoyles #3 :). (Someone had to say it.)
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 4:15:17 pm EDT from 71.115.253.179

....You're kidding me...DPH was RIGHT!?! Well, open mouth insert foot...mmmm foot ahhhghhh.

Okay fine, BG#3 next week (man are we getting spoiled, a consecutive storyline within two weeks of one another)

Also if anyone is interested I am seeking a beta for my gargoyles fanfiction.
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable. -- C.S. Lewis
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 4:13:36 pm EDT from 72.245.95.99

Wow Bad guys 3 out next week already, If Midtowncomics start selling it on Friday it will be out next week. I could have got Bad guys 2 today but no it's Bank holiday so no post.
VickyUK - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 3:56:16 pm EDT from 205.188.117.134

Well, it's not "Gargoyles" #9, since Robby told me it's still incomplete. So it must be "Bad Guys"
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In 1977, George Lucas' "Star Wars" was released, and the intellectual and art side of filmmaking and filmgoing has been scattered to the four winds ever since."
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 3:53:41 pm EDT from 75.56.245.4

According to Diamond, 'Gargoyles #3' is slated for May 14: http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/upcomingreleases.txt I assume they mean Bad Guys #3 rather than Gargoyles #9 since the price is $3.50, the new Bad Guys price. Kind of disconcerting for the comic's distributor to have a typo, but good news nonetheless.
Lumpmoose - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 3:31:54 pm EDT from 128.101.32.234

*Emerges from under the cookie table and grabs some nachos*

Yummy for my tummy... :D

*Heads back under the cookie table until #8, BG #2, or the TPB is in hand*
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>^^)> Finally~! Some sleep~!
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 3:08:52 pm EDT from 72.199.224.230

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_Mayo
(The Gargoyles Pulse - updated Mondays)
~ Anthony Tini
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 1:53:12 pm EDT from 70.15.84.29

Mmmmm...queso-nacho-cookies...ahhhhhhhg...(my Homer Simpson impersonation)
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable. -- C.S. Lewis
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 11:14:21 am EDT from 72.245.95.99

Now that I have BG #2, I don't have to avoid this place any more. Yay! Also, I finally asked my store to start reserving me copies, after the first employee I asked couldn't find it (someone else knew where to look and there were a couple copies there), and there was only one battered #8 last time. I also reserved a few other titles while I was at it, since I was able to pick up the new Doctor Who and Serenity comics from the beginning of their runs. Haven't read them yet, but they look fun. (Yeah, I'm one of those lesser comic book geeks who only reads tv tie-ins...)

Cinqo de Mayo: oh, is it? *glances at calendar* Strange -- my calendar tells me that it's a Bank Holiday in the UK, Labour Day in Queensland, and the new moon, but apparently doesn't care that it's Cinqo de Mayo...I guess it only names official holidays for English-speaking countries.
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 10:53:35 am EDT from 69.112.108.43

*whips out a bowl of queso and some nachos and puts it next to the cookie tray*

Yum yum!
Rebel
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 10:40:19 am EDT from 216.45.251.210

Battle Beast> Huh? Happy what?
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 10:26:52 am EDT from 99.159.248.140

HAPPY CINQO DE MAYO EVERYONE!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 10:25:38 am EDT from 75.152.229.29

Antiyonder> "Have to say that this episode was a nice flipside to the 1994 cartoon episode "Night Of The Lizard"."

It's funny you mention that. As a little experiment I tracked down "Night of The Lizard" on Youtube last night and watched it back to back with "Natural Selection". It's a pretty interesting way of comparing and contrasting the two series.

One of the things that struck me was how the new series seems way more adept at fleshing out it's minor characters. In NoTL Martha and Billy Conners don't come across as much more then plot contrivances designed to make us feel sorry for Curt. By contrast Natural Selection does a bang up job of making us care about the Martha and Billy and illustrating the impact Curt's condition has on them.

All in all, even though "Night of The Lizard" was one of the better S:TAS episodes and I found it enjoyable. I still find "Natural Selection" to be the stronger story. It was an interesting experiment and I might repeat it with the Green Goblin and Doc Ock intro episodes from both shows.
Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 9:18:24 am EDT from 86.41.207.19

Since, I haven't done any particular episode comments or reviews for The Spectacular Spider-Man I'll be commenting on each story arc for the time being. That said:

Episode 1- Survival of the Fittest
- Considering the plan of using comic book only characters, I'm a bit embarassed that I didn't identify Randy earlier when seeing the episode prior to Market Forces.
- As much as I feel sorry for Peter's rejection from Sally, I couldn't help but laugh when Gwen and Harry commented on it. Either the scene was well written and executed or deep down I'm a jerk. I'll go with well executed scene :).
- Same with the comment above, I had a small laugh when Eddie tell Peter that being a high school student with lack of experience keeps him from getting paid.
- Relating to the comment on the podcast, as a fellow sap (I have a box of Shojo Manga for crying outloud), I too enjoyed Peter's dialogue about having Aunt May at the end.

Episode 2- Interactions
- Unlike the identifying of Randy, I was able to pick up on the cellphone dial tone immediately (which would be impossible to miss).
- In Flash's defense, he did get a higher grade than Liz, so maybe Mr. Warren was a little too judgemental of him (interms of how he would function as a tutor). I'm half serious and half joking about this of course.
- Not being able to have coffee for the rest of my life, I certainly hope I wouldn't go mad.

Episode 3- Natural Selection
- Have to say that this episode was a nice flipside to the 1994 cartoon episode "Night Of The Lizard". Basically both had Eddie and Peter involved in the story, but this time Peter looks like the bad guy. Also a good example of Pete winning and losing at the same time.
- My favorite scene is definitely Spidey trying to sneak up on the Lizard only for the cellphone to go off.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 8:13:44 am EDT from 71.115.253.179

Chip> This is probably just me being naive, but I would think that if Coldstone knows Goliath and the others care for Elisa, then MAYBE he'd at least give her a chance.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 7:57:37 am EDT from 99.159.248.140

Since we've discussed here before how accurate Shari's stories to Thailog in #7 and #8 are, I thought I'd give them a closer look.

First, we know that some of her stories are true, because they've received independent confirmation. Her story about the ColdTrio (told on November 3) is accurate; we know that from "Re-Awakening", "Legion", "High Noon", and "Possession". We also know that she's telling the truth about the Stone of Destiny being the stone from Arthur's sword-in-the-stone feat, since "Pendragon" confirmed that.

Also, Shari (presumably) did not make up most of the information that she gives Thailog about the Stone of Destiny; all the stories that she's told about it so far (except for it being the stone from the Sword in the Stone) are actual legends and tales about the Stone. They can't all be true, since two of them (the story of Gathelus and Scota in #7, and the story about Moses providing water for the Israelites from the Stone and Jeremiah bringing the Stone to Ireland in #8) contradict each other. But Shari isn't inventing them (unless - following the Scheherazade theory - she came up with them already a long time ago).

The only part of her story that doesn't appear elsewhere is the details of how the Stone of Destiny became the stone that Arthur drew Excalibur from. So far, we haven't had it confirmed from an outside source in the comic that Merlin and King Pelles borrowed the Stone from Fergus - and the story doesn't exist outside the comic. I think that it's probably true within the Gargoyles Universe (and it fits, since - as I've mentioned before - Pelles held the Fisher King title before Percival did, which links him to Duval and the Illuminati), though we don't know for certain as yet.

So we know that some of what Shari is saying is true, but not all of it. That might make her stories even more potentially dangerous; lies containing some truth in them can do more damage than complete falsehoods.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, May 5, 2008 7:10:12 am EDT from 4.244.211.31

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Comments for the week ending May 12, 2008

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