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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending August 4, 2008

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Ed> Oh, do you mean to post the fliers adverting gargs, take a pic of that, make fliers of that, then send that to Disney? Like a missing persons thing for circulation or a straight up advertisement? And we could surely get multiple artists to submit something for variety but would it be best to have a single unifying image? I.E. the gargoyles logo?

Let's encourage more discussion of circulating the word to Disney that we haven't forgotten that we haven't gotten Season 2 Vol. 2 yet lol. Let's put our loud voices to good use once more! I was so proud of us to have the first dvd, AND a documentary on US!! Oh man, it still gives me shivers. So I say to all of us again, rise up and speak out for your favorite Defenders of the Night. It is STILL a time of Gargoyles:)

Jade Griffin

TODD> If this CR and fandom have proven one thing, we can go strong without new material. I wouldn't worry.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
What would David Xanatos do? Well, he wouldn't sit at his computer bitching and moaning, that's for sure.

I had a few more reflections on the cancellation (or non-renewal), but I'll save those for Monday.

One big disadvantage of the non-renewal for the room: once all twelve issues of "Clan-Building" and all six issues of "Bad Guys" have come out, we'll have a difficult time injecting fresh life in the room. Though it could always become a comment room for such Weisman works as "The Spectacular Spider-Man" (already much discussed here), "Progeny", and "Mecha-Nation".

Todd Jensen

spen>email has been sent.

Vinnie : Yeah, I kept getting error messages when I tried to access the site last night.

Anyone else have a difficult time getting on Station Eight this morning? I know I did.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
It's silly. It's a silly movie. There just isn't much there. Once you take it all apart, there's not much story, is there?- George Lucas on Spider-Man 3

Matt is right. When Bad Guys #4 comes out, we'll probably all be posting over each other in excitment ^_^ Its supposed to be released a week from last Monday, right? So any day now!

Hmm, I think I ACTUALLY killed the Room there for a bit. Welcome back...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

What the Room needs is a fresh injection of canon material. Bad Guys #4 can't come out soon enough for me and I'm very confident that Gargoyles #9 will get some conversations going.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

I think that most of the last few comments that we had didn't invite further discussion. Though maybe nobody felt like doing much typing on the Internet this weekend.

The room will probably revive on Monday - if we take care to come up with comments that can inspire response.

Todd Jensen

Did I kill the room?

Shara : My e-mail address is below. And thanks!
Spen - [spen at catlover dot com]
Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz.

Spen>there are a few small cons in IOWA. I can email you the list. I dont know that state though so dont know if there near you etc. But yeah every state usually has a small convention of sorts you just have to look for it. Youll be amazed at the hands on responce you get at a convention rather then the net.

Okay, now that some of the initial frusturation about the non-renewal of the comic has worn off, I'd like to point out that we have reason to be optomistic.
First, Disney raised the price- this isn't good, but it's better than a flat out no. We're in a ressesion (US wise) so I'm not surprised they wanted more money. If gas prices EVER go down, the price of everything will go down.
Second, it is now known that Gargoyles CAN make money. Compare it's sales to Wonderland or Tron. Now keep in mind SLG is a fairly small company. With the odds it had, the Gargoyles comic may not have made a title wave, but it certainly made a splash!
Third, the comic added some new blood to the fandom. More fans = more support = better chance of catching Disney's attention.
Yeah, it's kinda like getting the rug pulled out from under you, but now we have more momentum. More fuel for the fire. More reason to want it back.
'Kay. That's my two cents worth.

Grey Wolf

*peeks in and waves* Just me, with my monthly reminder that MGC has updated for the month, and we have a new topic - Chinese Gargoyles. Also don't forget that Contemporary Literature has moved into voting with 14 awesome entries! Everyone can vote once remember, so head over and do it! :)
kess - [< Updated for August]

I could see New Olympians standing on it's own. It was planned before Gargoyles, and I believe it's connection might be brief (Gargoyle clan on New Olympus and Xanatos). Plus, if it makes any difference, it was specified that it would begin in a decade after the episode New Olympians.

Plus, if Greg was to still do the 2 part "The Weird Macbeth" (which would make up an entire graphic novel if they are roughly the length of six issues), I imagine it would help to get some Shakespeare fans interested.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

"Getting hooked" : I can think of a few shows that I was turned on to by the recommendation of others. The truest example of this would probably be "Scarecrow & Mrs. King". Around the end of '83, my best friend, Connie, gave me a rave review of the show. Since Connie and I generally have similar tastes in TV shows, I was inclined to watch it, however, I don't like coming into a show after it's already started (there had been about nine episodes already at this point). Fortunately, Connie had the foresight to tape the pilot episode. I came over to watch it with her, and about five minutes in, I was hooked. Over the next couple of years, I ended up becoming more of a fan of the show than Connie was.

I have other examples too. My dad always said that he thought that "The Fugitive" was the best TV show, period. Now, it was on several years before I was born, so I had never really had a chance to see if he was right or not. Fast forward to 1989. It's a few months
after Dad passed away, and I notice in TV Guide that A&E is running all the old Fugitive episodes. I figure, heck, why not try it? So I watched the first episode to see if it was any good. End result : I ended up taping the entire series. I'd say Dad was just about right.

One final example : "Buffy, the Vampire Slayer". I'm not certain if it counts as a true recommendation, as the show intrigued me from the start. I probably saw the original movie (I say probably because I really don't remember. I watched a *lot* of movies from '91-'96.) And the previews sounded interesting to me. However, in the spring of '97, my mom (who was living with me at the time) was going through one of her "ultra-religious phases". I didn't think that a show featuring vampires and demons would really go over
well with her. Heck, I didn't even watch any of my "Gargoyles" tapes during that phase (though granted, TGC had dulled my enthusiasm enough that I probably wouldn't have watched the tapes anyway, but that's beside the point). By the time Mom was back to something resembling normal, the show had gone too far for me to just drop in in the middle. So I pretty much forgot about the show for several years. Fast forward to late 2002. I've rediscovered "Gargoyles" and the fandom. I'm reading through the TGS CR archives, and start realizing that there are a lot of Buffy fans around here. It takes a while, but I actually start getting into the show, without having ever seen an episode. Finally, around 2006, WB was showing the pilot episode. I decide to see if it really is as good as
everyone's been saying. It was. I started renting the DVDs from the Burlington library (our library doesn't carry DVDs) I've seen the first four seasons, and really am on my way towards becoming a Buffyverse geek. I'd like to thank all the Buffy fans we have around
here for unconsciously helping me become a fan, including but far from limited to: Todd, Greg B., Greg Weisman, Sevarius Jr., Jenna, Doug/Kit, among numerous others. Thanks, everyone!

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to complete the Buffy experience yet. A few months back, some jerk stole all of the Buffy/Angel DVDs from the library. So I'm stuck at season four, until the time comes that I can buy all twelve DVDs (in about three years, if all goes well).

About the going to small cons in your area idea, how exactly does one find out what (if any) conventions are going on in your neighbourhood? I've never even heard of any sort of convention in this area (Iowa is not exactly the geek capitol of the world).

By the way, if anything I said above seems incoherent, I've had about twelve hours of sleep this past week, and I tend to ramble (and make a lot of comments in parenthesis) when I'm tired.

Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz.

Litwolf: A TPB reprints old issues, a graphic novel is all-new.

Kris: Unless there's a penciller/inker partnership, an astonishingly fast person or a higher wage for the artists, I would expect potential GN releases to be slower if anything (no fill-in artists probably). Then again, the stories may be shorter than 144 pages.


I think there's something in the argument that starting with another series would have done well and put everybody on an even keel, but which? They all have flaws and drawbacks to me. After all, what makes the things (theoretically) most saleable?

1. An iconic tie to the show -- a major character to draw back old fans. (Gargoyles, 2198, Dark Ages, maybe Timedancer pass. Bad Guys, Pendragon and New Olympians fail.)

2. A clear concept with a strong title that would aim to appeal in its own right, irrespective of the Gargoyles tie. (Pendragon and New Olympians are probably are the easiest for a non-fan to 'get' right-off; Bad Guys, Timedancer and 2198 with a bit more explanation. Gargoyles and Dark Ages seem to me more dependent on the original for whatever popularity they have).

3. A fresh start where knowledge from the original show isn't particularly required (only 2198 is really clear on this. Dark Ages and New Olympians might be fairly okay. Pendragon, Bad Guys, Timedancer have some continuity baggage but not overly much. Gargoyles was very complicated though).

I think most series would fall short, except for 2198. It's got the name 'Gargoyles' as a much bigger part of it, it's got memorable characters like Brooklyn and Demona, the whole TNG concept is one people are very familiar with from Star Trek. It's a clean slate for everybody and the Space Spawn invasion would make for a startling beginning; I think newbies would feel less alienated by stuff aimed more towards fans when most of the comic is new characters and situations. Also, since it was redeveloped long after the show ended, it might have been better tailored to the medium earlier. 'Gargoyles' could have become, counter-intuitively, its own spin-off's spin-off, and again the title would probably have sold better than BG because of the name. It would have been more a sister book than a

Of course, AS A FAN, I loved having the present-day saga tick forward. But then I'd probably have loved whatever, and I do think 2198 would have been a much easier word-spread. Hindsight's a magical thing though; it's not like I'd ever know if this judgment was completely wrongheaded. I don't remember this ever being thought of before and of course the sales WERE pretty strong. Just not "justify Disney's license fee strong".

As for the film... I agree, Greg and Michael Reaves' treatment didn't grab me. Othello's just not interesting enough to me to replace other leads, and I think all the talk of seeding things for sequels was a big mistake. TV and comics lend themselves to tapestries. Films, with few exceptions, don't. Over the past few years, I've occasionally given some thought to how a movie would work in an ideal world. It would be a much longer post than I have time to type up my thoughts right now but maybe sometime.

Jalapeno campaign... I've read about these campaigns. I think they've worked in the past where they're on the fence about something and it's been a gimmick. But now? The guy in the mail room will HATE GARGOYLES FOREVER and nobody higher will care or, possibly, know. I applaud the idea but I think its usefulness as a fan campaign tool has long since expired (for 'The Middleman' or 'Gargoyles')

Getting Hooked... interesting question. Usually, it's someone I trust recommending something and then it catching my eye. Todd recommended 'Bone' a few times and it caught my eye in the shop. Nobody specifically talked about 'Veronica Mars' but I knew it had a great reputation so I picked up the first DVD season and was totally hooked (I know it's not applicable to what we're discussing here but I think it demonstrates that keeping 'Gargoyles' in the public eye and well-thought-of pays dividends.) I can't think of a time I've been specifically converted. I can think of a time when I realised six years after the fact that something someone raved about was, actually, very good.

Haven't looked at the Save Disney Shows website yet.

Jade: Surely it would be better to put the flyers up in public places and send the photos to Disney?

"The Victorian freak show never went away. Now it's called Big Brother or American Idol, where in the preliminary rounds we wheel out the bewildered to be sniggered at by multi-millionaires." -- Andy Millman, 'Extras'

DEMONSKRYE - Sending them banana cream pie would probably also be a bad idea - especially if you used Vinnie's delivery methods.
Todd Jensen

I feel so neglected. Why didn't I get this e-mail? Whoever this dude is, I have a brother in military. I'm sure he and I could arrange to airlift this person a crate of firearms, or something.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"No, Starvin' Marvin, that's Kenny's creamed corn! No, Starvin' Marvin! THAT'S A BAD STARVIN' MARVIN!" -Eric Cartman

Demonskrye> if you really want to promote gargoyles just do what I do.

1) I am making a masqot costume which I will wear at small cons , including some greg goes to and pass out flyers in it.

2) Print out some flyers of the gathering. go to some small cons in your area and ask them if they will let you have a booth. Most of them say yes since the gathering is non profit. Then organize something with friends and pass out flyers and talk about gargoyles and the dvds etc...... You would be amazed at how much people you get interested in gargoyles.... doing it that way then advertizing on the net.


Jade Griffin> "Also, has anyone received an email from King Cobra asking for help in Nigeria?"

Yes, that comes from my hotmail account. No, it is not from ME. I've never been to Nigeria, and I'm not one to ask people online for money, even if I were to need it. I'd get a job instead.

Whoever it is that hacked in had better hope I never meet them.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Demonskrye > Well, I think I got the general idea, that it would be a long book filled with the stories. I think Im just gonna give up on trying to get any more specific :-) but thanks a bunch for the help.

Sorry for the <AHEM> triple post...I dunno why my computer did that...it's not the first time either.
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, You will find the same man going back on this a moment later."--C.S. Lewis

Jade Griffin> I rather like that idea...let's do that? Can we do that? Or would they not like it, and move against us? What's the general concensus on the paper logo--thingie?
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, You will find the same man going back on this a moment later."--C.S. Lewis

Jade Griffin> I rather like that idea...let's do that? Can we do that? Or would they not like it, and move against us? What's the general concensus on the paper logo--thingie?
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, You will find the same man going back on this a moment later."--C.S. Lewis

Jade Griffin> Another good point. I had heard about that, but forgotten.

And, yeah, the e-mail is a scam. If you scroll down a ways, you'll see that King Cobra's e-mail was hacked and many of us received the same message.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Well, Demonscrye, if ya want a symbol of Gargoyles, I'd just photocopy a bajillion of the logo and send it in on a flyer saying we demand such and such. Like a preview for the next dvd, or even just "We want Season 2: Vol. 2!!", etc. It's cheap, anyone can do it, circulates easily, etc. etc. That's my vote. Plus it is recycleable.
Jade Griffin

Demonscrye> you may also want to know that currently in the news that jalapenos and other peppers are suspect for carrying salmonella if they are from mexico-- it's a current thing in the news on the west coast here.

Also, has anyone received an email from King Cobra asking for help in Nigeria? I believe it is a Nigerian scam using his email address but wanted to see if anyone else received one as well. I can post it in here if ya like but I'll ask first before doing so.

Jade Griffin

Greg gave an interesting response to my question about gargoyles on mainland Europe by the time of the French revolution. I would have thought the answer would have been a clear yes or a clear no. Oh well. Next question up is about gargoyle population world-wide. :-)
Whatever happened to simplicity?

Todd> I just had a brief flash of inspiration that we should send jalapenos before realizing that jalapenos probably aren't that easy to send and most Disney execs probably wouldn't get it.
Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

DEMONSKRYE - There was also a Skittles commercial featuring gargoyles once, several years ago, but since it portrayed gargoyles in a threatening light as terrifying monsters threatening children, I don't think that would be appropriate.
Todd Jensen

Sorry for the double posr, but I just had some additional thoughts on promoting "Gargoyles":

I've mentioned before that a very good friend of mine was the artist on a comic called "The Middleman" which is now a TV show on ABC Family. (Monday nights. Check your local listings. Also if you would like to buy a print of a lovely picture he drew of a Frankenstein-inspire scene with a shovel lady, go to www.evilspacerobot.com) The ratings are not great and the network has opted for a shorter first season. The other creator of the series, who wrote the comics, has subtly suggested that fans could send bags of M&Ms to ABC Family to show their support for the show. ("MM"="MiddleMan") So I started wondering if there was something similar we could do for "Gargoyles." But I've come up against to problems:

1. I have no idea what small, inexpensive thing could easily symbolize "Gargoyles".

2. It would require organizing a very large number of people and coordinating the sending. The idea is to have a large number of whatevers come pouring in to Buena Vista Home Video or Disney's comics division or wherever at roughly the same time. If what we end up with is three bags of Skittles (which are just an example and have nothing to do with "Gargoyles", unless you count the fact that both Skittles and gargoyles come in many colors) over the course of a week and then two a month later, it could easily backfire and further convince Disney that the fanbase for "Gargoyles" is tiny.

I also thought I would pose a question to you guys, the answers to which might help us figure out some new strategies: Think of a time when someone convinced you to watch a show or read a comic or a book or see a movie or whatever that that person liked and you didn't know much about. How did that person convince you? It can be someone you know in person, someone you've only talked to online, whatever. Just as long it was an individual that got you into the thing rather than an advertising campaign. You don't have to have become a super devoted die-hard fan of whatever it was either. It's probably better if you ended up liking it, but even if you didn't, that person was at least successful in getting you to check it out. And preferably not "Gargoyles," unless you have a really terrific story of how a friend got you to check out the show. I figure we've pretty much all told our "how I found 'Gargoyles'" stories and gone over them for potential ideas.

Also, has anyone else checked out that "Save Disney Shows" website that was mentioned on Ask Greg a few days ago? If anyone is interested in pursuing it, it might be helpful to our cause. Personally, I think their goals may be a little bit too broad. I agree that removing a 65 episode limit on all current Disney TV shows and getting more airings and DVD releases for older shows are things worth pursuing, but I'm not sure I want to promote the saving of a bunch of tween-focused live-action shows or series that really don't need more than 65 episodes (as is sometimes the case). They seem to have categorized "Gargoyles" as an "older show" which means they would be seeking more TV showings and DVD releases rather than a return to production. But the forum is relatively active and there may be some members who would be interested in the comic or have ideas for promoting the DVDs. At the very least, they have a good library of flyers and handouts to promote their cause, which I would like to see on one of our sites.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Litwolf> In brief:

Comic/Single Issue - Periodical styled comic of relatively short length, usually released on a semi-regular schedule. What "Gargoyles" is currently.

Trade Paperback/Coolection - Several single issue comics published together in book format, sometimes with additional material. Some comics are also collected into hardcover volumes which, of course, you wouldn't call trade paperbacks. What "Gargoyles" is published as when six issues are completed and collected into one volume.

Graphic Novel - A long form comic which was never published in periodical form before being a book. They may contain chapter breaks, but are not designed to be read in pieces over the course of several months and therefore don't have the regular breaks or climaxes in story that you would see in a trade paperback comprised of single issue comics. What "Gargoyles" will become is SLG is able to reach a new deal with Disney.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Demonskrye and Asatira > So Im still mixing it up :P I understood in the long run that it meant several chapters/issues being placed all in one book. The term 'graphic novel' is what confused me because I instantly thought of a 'manga' and was thinking that Gargoyles was suddenly being moved from 'comic'-style drawings to 'manga'-style drawings. But it will stay with the 'comic'-style we got now. I think I understand it for real this time, though please correct me if I am still wrong ^_^

In other random news, my Borders moved their graphic novel section when I wasnt looking! I searched around twice before finally realizing it had been moved upstairs, next to the Children's section. But I like it. It feels more open than when they were hiding it in the corner of the store like it was a dirty little secret :P


Litwolf> To further clarify. A graphic novel is written with the intention of all the content being published at one time. What Clan-Building vol. 1 is is a trade paperback, where previous individual issues/chapters that were already _published_ are put together into a volume. (Yeah, I'm nitpicking, but there's an important difference)

Litwolf> Just for your future reference, "graphic novel" can also refer to a long form comic that is originally published in book form and never published in single issues.

Bluewyvern> I've heard of those shops. I think the one in my neck of the woods is cryptozoology themed.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

And on that note, I just discovered the existence of the Brooklyn Superhero Supply Co. http://nymag.com/listings/stores/Brooklyn-Superhero-Co/

Must go soon. Though it'll be hard to pretend to be a superhero when really all I want is to be a supervillain, thanks to Dr. Horrible...

"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

On that note, The Legion Of Superheroes will be making an appearance on Smallville in the upcoming season.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

haha i liked legion of superheros.

Off-topic: For anyone here who enjoyed Legion Of Super Heroes, if you haven't heard about it, James Tucker is currently working on Batman The Brave And The Bold. Basically it's a Batman Team Up series, but James Tucker intends to aim for the older audience as well. Some info can be found here:

- Toon Zone's "Brave & the Bold:" James Tucker, Michael Jelenic, & Linda M. Steiner: http://news.toonzone.net/article.php?ID=25153
- Interview with Diedrich Bader, Voice of Batman: http://news.toonzone.net/article.php?ID=25156
- Teaser video: http://news.toonzone.net/article.php?ID=25151

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Oh, I finally understand the differance between the comics and graphics novels, the graphic novels being the books made up of several comics. I think that would be better in the long run for all of us. When the comics come out, I have to order them online, but I was able to buy Clan-Building 1 at my local Borders. It would definitally reach more people in the graphic novel section of a book store. I hope we get a chance for that in a year or so.

Chip> I prefer to see it as your version is succinct while I'm more verbose. :)
Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I wonder if, after the initial shock of the cancellation news settles, there'll be less of an intense effort to keep the series alive than there was after the initial cancellation in 1997. Much of the effort then was fueled by the response to how the Goliath Chronicles (it was generally felt) skewed the series in such a dreadful fashion. But the comic book was more true to the tone of the first two seasons and its events and atmosphere had (for most of the readers, at least) met with approval. So the comic's revival, followed by the second farewell to "Gargoyles", would feel less like the loss of a loved one, and more like a brief reunion with that loved one to heal the wounds of the first parting, followed by a second passing. (Though some might see it as more like a delicious meal being taken away before you'd taken more than a few bites.)
Todd Jensen

Demonskrye> Wow, you said that so much better than I did. *slinks quietly away*
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, You will find the same man going back on this a moment later."--C.S. Lewis

Battle Beast> There are a couple of issues surrounding that idea. One is that fan-fiction in general occupies a kind of legal gray area. If you're writing fanfic, you generally don't want to ask the copyright holder if it's OK because they will probably say "no." Fan-fiction survives because it generally keeps a low profile and in most cases, it's not worth the copyright holder's time to fight it. There are some companies who are known for very aggressively defending their copyrights to the point of alienating and angering fans. But a lot of copyright holders recognize that most fanfic authors write because they love the property, that there's no money to be made by taking them to court, and that taking legal action against an eight year old over her "Hannah Montana" Mary Sue story is very, very bad publicity. But one of the main creators of "Gargoyles" writing "Gargoyles" fan-fiction might be enough to attract Disney's legal team, especially if the fan-fiction in question is making a profit. Which brings up the second point: Greg has pretty much said that he doesn't want to write "Gargoyles" for free. Much as he may love the Gargoyles Universe, he does write for a living and it's understandable that he wouldn't want to devote a significant amount of time and effort to writing a series without being paid for it. Maybe a short prose piece here and there on Ask Greg, but not a full series. One of the facts that does keep most fan-fiction in that legal gray area is the fact that no money is being made from it. Start charging people to read you fan-fiction and the copyright holder's lawyers will swoop in like vultures.

Writing stories where the names and locations are changed but the characters are essentially the same is a possibility, but it has its own drawbacks. If too little is changed, Disney has an excellent case for copyright infringement. Change too much and it stops being "Gargoyles" and becomes its own thing.

CrzyDemona> Any hints as to when the rest of us will get to see PARIS? I am signed up for e-mail alerts, but some news would be nice.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

battlebeast>the webcomic is a fan run project. Its nonprofit.

The website is



Battle Beast> Because Greg probably would not want to write under the label "fan-fiction", and frankly I wouldn't want him too.

Part of what makes the canon so exciting is that it IS canon, not fanfiction. Besides, Greg created the show, so if he were to write "fanfiction" web comics, Disney would probably sue for copywrite infringment on the grounds that Greg made the series and thus it isn't truly fanfiction. (And they'd be justified.)

Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, You will find the same man going back on this a moment later."--C.S. Lewis

Well... we'll always have PARIS. ;)
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson - [<--- Blue Mug Productions - 18+ ONLY]
The story is told... though who can say if it be true...

There is a web comic out there, right??? So... why not get Greg to write it... and someone draw it... and call it "fan fiction..."

Or is there legal hoops to jump through there too?

Battle Beast
That is all I will say.

Trying to go in chronological order...

Brigadoon Traveler> We have two stories left in the Clan Building arc for Demona to laser bazooka blast her way into: the Stone of Destiny storyline (or its conclusion at least) and Brooklyn's first timedancing adventure. It's possible that she's going to show up in the next issue and if she does, I would wager that she's trying to throw a wrench into whatever scheme Thailog is planning rather than hanging around London, where there already plenty of action without her making an appearance. But there's already a whole lot going on in this story with tons of characters, including several we've only just met, so Demona might be a bit much. That leaves the Timedancer story. So where could she fit in there? Just about anywhere. Since she's immortal, she could potentially show up in any adventures Brooklyn has that take place after her birth. Plus, we know that part of the focus of this story is how Brooklyn facilitates the breaking of the spell cast on the survivors of the Wyvern Clan, so it's not beyond belief that the other gargoyle who had a talon in breaking the spell might be around while Brooklyn is getting Mary, Finella, and the Grimorum to where they belong.

Todd and Ed> It is something of a double-edged sword. A continuation of the main "Gargoyles" series is probably what the majority of fans most wanted to see happen, but it's also the one that relies the most on readers being familiar with what has happened previously. Some of the spin-offs might have helped new readers to feel less overwhelmed by previous continuity, but could have potentially alienated hardcore fans who wanted to see the main storyline continued or more casual fans who may have simply not recognized the connection of some of the spin-offs to the original TV series. Not to keep playing Monday morning quarterback, but I do kind of wonder if "Bad Guys" was the best choice for the first spin-off. I know Greg felt for some reason that this story needed to be told now (and I'm still not sure why, though it may have been intended to set up for something in an upcoming story arc). But in some ways, it was pretty tough on new readers. If I've never watched an episode of "Gargoyles" before and all I know about the story is what I've read in the main comic and I see a spin-off comic called "Bad Guys," I'm probably going to think that I'll be seeing stories about Thailog or the Quarrymen, or that bad guy robot gargoyle, or the gargoyle redhead who showed up in issue #1 briefly, or maybe even Xanatos. Instead, I get a story about a group of characters, most of whom I have never seen before, who I guess were all "bad guys" at some point before the comic began. It's not an insurmountable obstacle, but it is pretty tough on the new reader.

Ed> At the time I wrote the essay, the direct-to-DVD sequels were still happening. Since then - due in no small part to the continuing partnership between Disney and Pixar and Lasseter and Catmull's attempts to get Disney Animation back on track - they've pretty much ceased production.

I agree with your thoughts on the live-action movie. I generally do not like live-action movie adaptations of animated material (and I'm really not looking forward to the live-action "Avatar" movie). It's like studio execs think that live-action will somehow "legitimize" the property and make it more palatable to a wider audience. Aside from that (blasphemy ahead), I'm not really bowled over by the summary of the Weisman/Reaves treatment for the movie from back when it was more of a possibility. It's not so much the "I hate it because it isn't exactly like the show" issue; more that I feel like there are problems that come from trying to squeeze a little too much material into too short a time frame.

As for the "more modest proposal" for the "Gargoyles" license, I think the trick is going to be finding something where Disney feels that the effort spent on their end is worth the relatively small licensing fee that SLG can afford. It may mean just the main book and no spin-offs. It may even mean that we actually end up getting LESS material per year than we would have if the comic had been released on schedule. It's way too early to speculate, but I do think we should keep in mind that Dan Vado will need to figure out a deal that meets both SLG's and Disney's needs when he does go back to the table and if that ends up meaning less comics for us, well, it's definitely better than nothing.

Matt> I would say it's just a genetic quirk like Lex's wing structure, except that I seem to recall that Greg once mentioned that there was a significance to Coco having membrane wings instead of feathered ones. (It is entirely possible that I am remembering this wrong, as I haven't been able to find it in the archives.) My personal theory is that Coco has a Scottish ancestor. If members of the London clan noticed that the Scottish gargoyles joining their clan all had membrane wings as opposed to their feathered ones and used Scottish ancestry as the answer when younger gargoyles asked why some of their siblings had wings that looked different, it could explain how Griff correctly identified Goliath as "Scottish stock" at a time when the only surviving Scottish gargoyles were the future Manhattan clan still trapped in stone sleep and Demona. Just a theory, though.

Greg W> Just a general bit of advice to everyone: if you're having a rough day and something is making you upset, it is usually best to refrain posting anything on the internet that is remotely confrontational. The internet will still be here after you've eaten or slept or gone for a walk or done whatever it is you need to do to calm down and get some perspective. Then you can reply to whatever someone else said without letting your unrelated issues influence you and saying something you might regret later.

As Greg W stated, part of the issue here is that SLG is a very small comics publisher while Disney is a very large company, which means that what SLG sees as a hefty or prohibitively expensive licensing fee is not very much money at all to Disney. I wouldn't be surprised (though of course I have no way of knowing) if Disney gave SLG a bit of a break on the licensing fees because they were excited about the possibility of gaining a foothold in a market and age group where they don't have much of a presence, all the while hoping that sales would allow them to later raise the fee to a price that better reflected the cost on their end. Though the book sold well, it wasn't enough to allow SLG to pay a higher licensing fee and Disney didn't feel the current rate was enough to justify the work required on their end.

The reason I don't really like the "Disney hates Gargoyles" or "It's all Disney's fault" arguments is that they seem rather defeatist to me. Of course I wish Disney would do things like advertise the DVD or fast track the approval of the comic or try to figure out where they could cut expenses so that SLG's current licensing fee would be enough for them. But that's not going to happen and those aren't the only issues the property has. The main thing is that if I really believed Disney was entirely to blame for "Gargoyles" not coming back in a big way, then I would also have to believe that we should all just pack it in and find something else to do. Because if "Gargoyles" is never going to be a real sustained success until Disney takes a serious interest in it and starts pouring money into it, then there's nothing we can do. I don't want to sit around blaming Disney because I don't want to believe that the future of "Gargoyles" rests solely with a giant corporation which has not shown a huge amount of interest in the property in quite some time. I want to believe that other people - especially the fans - can still have an influence on whether "Gargoyles" keeps coming back or just fades away.

Kris> I agree it would be frustrating if people who have only been collecting the single issues of "Gargoyles" end up having to buy the trades because the single issues don't finish the story. I personally buy both, but I know not everyone can or wants to. If anyone is in a situation where they absolutely cannot or will not buy both the single issues and the trades, where it must be one or the other, I would suggest that you stop buying the single issues and just get the trades. It means you have to wait longer for new material, but it's the only way to guarantee that you will get the entire story. If you are getting the trade and you decide that you don't want to have the single issues anymore, your local comic ship MIGHT allow you to trade them in for store credit. You definitely won't get everything you paid back and you might not get much money at all, but you may get a little to offset the cost of the trades. I would suggest that you wait until the trades actually come out, since the store may want you to use your credit right away. And of course, you can also give your single issues to someone who might enjoy them if you don't want them anymore.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I still wonder if the Hunters, after 1057, came across any gargoyles other than Demona; their astonishment at discovering Goliath and his clan in New York suggested that they'd believed that all the rest of the species had been wiped out in the final battle between Canmore and Macbeth (though after so many centuries, they probably wouldn't have remembered that specific - I get the impression that they'd forgotten their links to Duncan and Canmore by this time). But it's possible that the remark "I thought only the Demon survived" referred to a different incident than Canmore's massacre of Demona's clan.

Incidentally, Greg isn't the only person mixing King Arthur with Shakespeare (especially "Macbeth") in the comics now. The first book of a new series of graphic novels recently came out, "Knights of the Lunch Table: The Dodgeball Chronicles". It's a humorous translation of the Arthurian cycle to a modern-day middle school (young Artie King is enrolled at Camelot Middle School, and discovers that he's the first - and only - kid able to open the legendary locker 001-XCL); not only does it offer counterparts to many Arthurian figures (Morgan le Fay, Merlin, Percival, Gawain, and Guinevere), but also the three witches from "Macbeth" (as the lunch ladies) as well. Merlin (here Artie's science teacher and faculty advisor) refers to the "Is this a dagger I see before me?" scene in "Macbeth", and has a pet crow or raven (I'm not sure which) named Oberon. (And, for a particular treat, look at the names of two boys who, according to the local urban folklore, met with dark ends....)

Todd Jensen

Thank you Greg W.

Constance> I think Greg W decided to have Constance have leathery wings for a reason. I think there is a story there. If a few Scottish gargoyle survivors made it south and joined the London Clan, that would explain how Griff knew what "Scottish stock" looked like. For all we know this could've happened in the 20th century. What if another Scottih Clan had survived the centuries only to finally be destroyed (perhaps by the Hunters?) very recently? A survivor may have made his/her way to London and joined up. Anyway, these are just my creativity demons, who knows, right?

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

gxb - I'll admit to being partly wrong and partly right. I imagined the comic went through only 3-4 different people not the small army. I was also wrong about them just picking on gargoyles; it turned out they wanted to do away with small deals.

Disney's loss and our loss. Disney has forgotten its roots.

Heck, by ending the comic books, that might increase the sales of the last issues of the comics. :-) Slg didn't get royally screwed over by their deal with Disney. They got Greg Weisman for 2 new comics. As Greg's rep goes up, interest in his previous works goes up. We all have to learn patience from time to time.

Whatever happened to simplicity?

In the spirit of looking forward...

The rest of the series (or most of it) coming out in trade paperback form makes it easier for others to check out when I mention it at places like Television Without Pity and TVshowsOnDVD.com or wherever else I find time to post. There are a number of Gargoyles fans out there who just plain love(d) the series, some who've checked out the comic, but also a majority who are curious about the comic but not paying attention often enough or aren't willing to invest the time to follow the issue schedules (and good luck getting a non-comics fan to pick up Previews to pre-order every month).

So trades make things easier as far as sharing goes.

It might be a little annoying (and unfair, but this is the way things have worked out) for some fans that they'll probably need to buy the Clan Building Volume 2 trade paperback to get the remainder of the story (same might be the case for Bad Guys, though getting out #5 and 6 isn't that much of a stretch, is it?). Especially if they were only planning on getting the single issues, this will cause them to double-dip for issues #7-9 and maybe #10, they'll own two copies. But I know a lot of you were buying both formats anyway, so hopefully not too many people will mind. This isn't unprecedented anyway--not even for Slave Labor Graphics. A quality series of theirs from a while back, Sparks, only saw five of its intended eight issues released due to cancellation, the remaining three didn't see print until the collection. Fans who'd been following the monthly issues had to suck it up and buy the trade if they wanted the rest of the story.

If the graphic novels work out, awesome, we'll have complete stories faster. Might help the book be more visible in the graphic novel section of book stores too (if it goes to Kingdom Comics and they publish it in the smaller manga-sized format, it could even stand alongside the Kingdom Heart comics).

This is getting ahead of things, but I don't think we should try to predict a hypothetical graphic novel release schedule based on the current (officially) bi-monthly comics. They could get a reasonably quick artist to commit to working on a 6-issue-sized graphic novel and have it out a lot faster than 12 months from start to finish (putting aside coloring and lettering). Depending on how profitable the series is deemed in GN form, if they could hire a few artists, we could see more than two Gargoyles collections per year. It'll depend...

I'm optimistic. If Dan Vado can't get it going again for Slave Labor Graphics, and they'll definitely try due to it being one of their top sellers, then it won't be impossible to fan-campaign Kingdom Comics some day down the road into putting out Gargoyles comics.

This is all potentially a blessing for the comic.

Kris - [plekopleko at hotmail dot com]

Yeah, Greg, you're right. As I told you elseware, it was a combination of that, and massive frustrations I'm having on another project that set it off. I definitely agree that now is not the time to play the blame game.

So, DPH, I am sorry I went off like that.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
What would David Xanatos do? Well, he wouldn't sit at his computer bitching and moaning, that's for sure.

See, rudeness is less fun when you're the recipient.

Guys, please. I realize these are trying times. But it does NOT help to start eating our own. It's more essential than ever to maintain civility. Make this a place where even the casual fan and the curious browser would feel welcome.

I will note AGAIN -- in an attempt to offer more clarity -- that sales of the book (including delays that may have affected sales) were NOT at issue here with the non-renewal of the license. At issue was the amount of money (small to Disney but large to SLG) that Disney was getting paid relative to their costs and the hassle. They stated to Dan that they were divesting themselves of all small, insignificant licenses, and that included both Gargoyles and Haunted Mansion unless Dan was willing and able to raise the license fee to a level that made it worth their while and justify their administrative costs. But that level would have made the license unprofitable for SLG, thus he could not accept their offer. And though I understand that it seems ridiculous, you need to understand that multiple people from multiple divisions at Disney were/are reviewing the book. And I'm sure Business Affairs (read lawyers) created large additional costs for Disney. Contracts, negotiations, etc. The fact is that it's a big company with a ton of overhead and they just don't work lean. I won't deny the frustration that we all share, but as always it is pointless to place blame. That's looking backward. It makes much more sense to look forward.

And to be good to each other.

Greg Weisman
"Uh... because my spider-sense was tingling?" -- The Spectacular Spider-Man (March 15, 2008)

GXB> Seriously. Shut up.
Greg Weisman
"Uh... because my spider-sense was tingling?" -- The Spectacular Spider-Man (March 15, 2008)

If I had to guess, I'd say that the leathery wings that Constance has are a less common trait in the London clan. Maybe the normal wing type for London gargoyles is the feathery kind, and the leathery ones come from a little "scottish stock" that mixed in with the London clan over the years?

Or maybe it's just a perfectly normal recessive trait within the London clan that did not originally come from somewhere else.


Matt> Simple answer: genetics.

I think of it along the lines of, for example, 'why does Lex have flying squirrel wings while Goliath's are more bigger and more common among the species?'.

A gargoyles' style of wing depends on said Gargoyle's DNA.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

So. Lets talk about Gargoyles.

It has been like a million years since we discussed an actual "in-universe" thing. Lets see... Anyone have any theories about why Constance has bat-like wings and not feathered ones?

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

Demonskrye: 'Lumpmoose (or would you prefer "Landon")'
Thanks for asking. Landon's fine.

Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]

I'll just quote what South Park had to say about people and conspiracy theories.

Kyle: You know that 1/4 of Americans are retarded right?
Stan: Yeah, at least 1/4.
Kyle: Here, let's do a test. There are four of us here, you're retarded, that's 1/4.

Kyle: ::after the conspiracy is blown:: So who caused 9/11?
Stan: What do you mean? A bunch of pissed off Muslims.
Hardly Boy: Yeah, what are you, retarded?

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
What would David Xanatos do? Well, he wouldn't sit at his computer bitching and moaning, that's for sure.

Yeah.... because the "Haunted Mansion" and "Pirates of the Caribbean" are cute musicals about fairy-tales or anthropomorphic animals. And does no one recall how dark and moody portions of "Fantasia" and "Snow White" were?
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

As I've said before, I think that so many people are prone to suspect that Disney was deliberately trying to sabotage "Gargoyles" because "Gargoyles" doesn't fit the Disney stereotype (being a dark and moody action-series rather than a cute musical about fairy-tales or anthropomorphic animals, say). It's probably the same kind of thing as a man being suspected of having murdered his wife (even if all the evidence points to her having died of natural causes) if it was known that he had an unhappy marriage but couldn't afford a divorce (to use an example from murder mysteries of the Agatha Christie variety).

If the public sees the suspect as having a strong motive for the deed, then it'll be hard to convince them otherwise, no matter what the evidence says. If "Gargoyles" had been produced by Warner Brothers rather than by Disney, I don't think we'd have as many conspiracy theories.

Todd Jensen

DPH: <The people wanted to end the contract with slg and that's it.>

Yeah, because everyone knows that Disney is trying to sabotage the fandom. Seriously, if they didn't want the contract, there's an easier way that involves less work: don't spend money on it in the first place.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"You and my mother, you're like peas in a pod. She can't dial a phone either, but she's seventy years old. What's your f**king excuse?" -Tony Soprano

Demonskrye/Todd: I do think the main comic's density has been a big issue. I remember a reviewer commenting that he was a fan of the show back in the day and even he couldn't figure it out (and this was for BG #2 which I think is easily one of the most accessible issues). In this respect, starting with Bad Guys or Pendragon or, for the name recognition, 2198, and extrapolating back to fill in the blanks might have worked. But then again, the main comic had decent sales, and getting a continuation of the original is a powerful draw and most readers get that (Buffy and Farscape are the same, except their backstories are all on DVD).

Demonskrye/DPH: I remember reading a comment from a few years ago where someone at Gladstone said Disney's approval process was so rigorous that it would be a herculean task to get any book on a regular schedule. And recently it was said -- possibly here or on Newsarama? -- in connection with the Pixar deal that the contracts were vast. What are the lawyer's fees on that? Anyway, I can easily imagine how the costs would mount up quickly, while whatever the comics bring in for them is, relatively, chump change.

What I find puzzling is -- surely the costs for Gargoyles and Haunted Mansion aren't wildly different from the costs for doing the Pixar tie-ins at Boom? I guess it's an economies of scale thing.

Demonskrye: I didn't know they were persisting with the movie sequels. I agree that these are pretty short-sighted; they cash in on the properties in the short term, but it just makes everything look tired and cynical; a big problem for a company which tries to market itself for its 'magic'.

I actually think a cinematic movie is much more likely than a D2DVD release (certainly not a D2DVD before the rest of the televised episodes are released and sell superbly, and good luck shifting TGC). They mooted a film once, it has some cachet. If Fox can do 'Alvin and the Chipmunks'...

I've never been that keen on the idea of a feature film myself though. To be truly great, it would need to reinvent the universe for the silver screen and the risk with that is that tie-in materials would be sought to complement a new continuity. We've got it good right now that Greg seems to be, kind of by default, the go-to-garg-guy, but that could change in a heartbeat if it became something with any serious money interest attached. Worse, there are so many ways the property could end up being remembered forever after not as "the classic 90s TV series" but rather a byword for failure like 'Gigli' or 'Batman & Robin'.

Anyway, I'm really optimistic the GN format would work if SLG can get it going. It doesn't matter if someone only remembers to check for new Gargoyles books once a year if they're only released once a year. And hopefully Disney's costs could be more readily absorbed into the costs of a book as opposed to a serial.

I'm curious by exactly what Greg meant by a "more modest" plan though. If the plan was to do 6-part arcs, would the GNs be a corresponding size? If so, one of those a year would be equivalent to a year's worth of releases -- more than the comic ever managed, in fact. Perhaps it would just be the main book, no spin-offs. Or maybe the more modest plan would simply mean that the licenses would be negotiated book-by-book, not by periods of time? I suppose hopefully they'll come through next year and we'll find out.


Back at school again since I haven't replaced my broken monitor yet. I, too, was at the SLG panel at Comic Con. Though I was disappointed yet not surprised at the same time, I was glad to hear that Dan Vado will not give up on the property, regardless of what Disney is doing...

Speaking of Disney, I went to their booth during the convention. Only one person at the booth knew what I was referring to (the DVDs, etc.). He told me there was no plans for a release date anytime soon. However, he also mentioned that someone had been calling Disney quite frequently about Gargoyles (and a certain name popped into my head when the guy told me that, though I only told the guy I may know who it might've been).

In short, I'm siding with Bishansky on this, especially when he said, "...it's not over until Greg says it's over."

I'm definitely looking forward to its continuation, no matter how long it'll take...

The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Tired... Comic Con withdrawal is now sinking in...

DEMONSKRYE - That was an interesting thought about having the new "Gargoyles" stories be set in the same universe, but involving a new set of characters. "Star Trek" wasn't alone in doing it; J. R. R. Tolkien had Bilbo retire at the start of "The Lord of the Rings" and pass his mantle on to Frodo, and C. S. Lewis gradually phased the original four children from "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" out of the Chronicles of Narnia for other characters. And it would have the advantage of not needing as much backstory for a new audience.

The chief disadvantage that I can see with that is that a lot of the people who wanted "new Gargoyles" wanted specifically to be told Greg's vision of how things went after "Hunter's Moon" and "The Journey", such as doing the "human hostility/Quarrymen" thread correctly (instead of the way that the Goliath Chronicles mishandled it), and might have been less interested in getting the adventures of the Redemption Squad or King Arthur and Griff instead. Indeed, I have suspected that a lot of the protest over the show's ending, and desire to get it back, was because of the way that the new production team mishandled the third season. What people wanted the most wasn't so much new tales from the Gargoyles Universe in general, but Season Three done correctly.

Todd Jensen

DPH> Seriously. Shut up.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
What would David Xanatos do? Well, he wouldn't sit at his computer bitching and moaning, that's for sure.

Demonskyre - <But eventually, she does get to the latest "Gargoyles" comic. It doesn't take long to read, of course, but she has to go over it carefully. Check the dialogue for anything that might be a problem. Make sure no one snuck in a loincloth that's not covering everything it should. Maybe she has to go consult her boss about whether the word "bastard" is permissible in this case. But let's be generous and say she's really fast and the whole process take about an hour. (This is assuming that there is only one person involved in the approval process, which we don't know either.) So even though Disney get money from Slave Labor without having to write or draw or print or in any way deal with the production of the comic, there is a cost to them: they have to pay their employee for the hour that she worked.> I think there is a low level employee doing this work. This person can't be working on gargoyles full-time. Administrative costs my foot. I can understand passing on administrative costs as part of the licensing fee if Disney had a whole team - more than 3 people - working full-time on approving comics from slg. At the rate they approve comics, I have trouble that they believe that's the case. The people wanted to end the contract with slg and that's it. Either that or somebody at the accounting office has no idea had to calculate costs.
Whatever happened to simplicity?

Forgive the double post. Forgot to adjust the setting.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Hotmail> Well, that account's gone. I had to make a new one under a new name.

Think I'll stick with my gmail account on here, though.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Thanks Greg for the feedback. Every cloud has a silver lining eh?

Personally I hope that we do get to go down the graphic novels route, but regardless I'll be happy with whatever Gargoyles canon material we hopefully get in the future.

"(Oh, and for those of you who wish Demona could have figured more prominently in the comic... well, guys do you really think I'd do a twelve issue re-introductory story arc in Gargoyles without prominently including the crazy red head? Please.)"

This line from Greg really caught my attention; it kind of confirms something I was thinking about with the new Timedancer arc, in particular with issue 12. This is all 100% speculation so far, but anyone remember the two Withheld entries for Febraury 28th and March 1st 1991 entries in "This Day in Gargoyles Universe History"? I've got a feeling that these two dates may crop up in this arc with the story centering around a certain crazy red head building an alliance with a certain amoral billionaire to awaken her long frozen clan. And what better way to end the Clan Building arc than to explore the backstory to how the original Manhattan clan awaken from their stone hibernation. Greg's comment above makes me think that my suspcions may be correct.

The only problem to all the above is that the solicitation for issue 12, vague though it may be, doesn't seem to confirm or suggest any of the above. Solicitation for issue 11 on the other hand...

Brigadoon Traveller

Michael Ejercito> I'm guessing that Nigerian e-mail scams were never addressed on the show because Lex tracking down a scammer's real address in Nigeria and sending the information along to the local authorities does not exactly make for riveting television.

Lumpmoose (or would you prefer "Landon")> As I've made clear before, I have absolutely no idea how Disney's licensing review process works. I am, however, pretty sure that there isn't any person whose sole responsibility is reading and approving the "Gargoyles" comic. So let's say there an employee who has to review 75 Hannah Montana books, 30 Suite Life of Zach and Cody books, 15 other Disney comics, and the "Gargoyles" comic. What do you think she's going to give priority to? What do you think she'll be pressured - by her bosses, the licensors, or whoever - to work on first? And what do you think is going to keep slipping back to the bottom of the pile?

But eventually, she does get to the latest "Gargoyles" comic. It doesn't take long to read, of course, but she has to go over it carefully. Check the dialogue for anything that might be a problem. Make sure no one snuck in a loincloth that's not covering everything it should. Maybe she has to go consult her boss about whether the word "bastard" is permissible in this case. But let's be generous and say she's really fast and the whole process take about an hour. (This is assuming that there is only one person involved in the approval process, which we don't know either.) So even though Disney get money from Slave Labor without having to write or draw or print or in any way deal with the production of the comic, there is a cost to them: they have to pay their employee for the hour that she worked. The fact that it took nine weeks for her to do the job (and keep in mind Greg said BG #4 is at the printer and could have potentially come out next week, which may mean it hasn't been at Disney quite that long) is irrelevant from Disney's point of view. It doesn't cost them any more or less if she approves the book the day it comes in or waits six months to get to it. She worked for an hour, she gets paid for an hour. As long as she isn't spending the remainder of her day doing nothing, Disney probably isn't going to be concerned. Where they do get concerned is when they look at what they're paying (for her salary, her boss' salary, maybe electric bill for her computer, etc, etc) versus what they're getting in licensing fees. And, more importantly, whether that hour spent approving "Gargoyles" could be making considerably more profit if it were being spent approving one or two more Hannah Montana books.

Is it fair? Not entirely, no. Does it create a vicious cycle, where the comic isn't a big moneymaker so approvals aren't prioritized so the comic gets delayed so fewer people pick it up so the comic isn't a big moneymaker? Probably. But it's not a deliberate campaign to kill the property and it does make some degree of sense from a financial standpoint. You put the most time and resources into the projects that you think will make the most money and I think it's been a very long time since Disney has felt that "Gargoyles" has the potential to make a lot of money.

IF we do end up getting a new SLG deal for graphic novels, it would be great, but we should be realistic about what we expect. If the comic was coming out on its intended schedule, we would be getting 6 issues of the main book and 6 issues of the current spin-off title per year. The collected books currently cover six issues at a time. Assuming that Dan Vado decides to continuing putting out material the same rate and continue producing the spin-offs (which is not a given), we're probably looking at two graphic novels per year, one every six months if they spread the out evenly. That's fine, but graphic novels have their own benefits and challenges. Like you said, some people do prefer them to single issues, not without reason. You get more to read all at once, they're carried by a greater variety of stores, and they hold up better than single issues. (My first release copy of "Batman: Mad Love" has seen better days.) I usually buy comics in single issues, but if I really enjoy a series, I'll get the trades later on. But six months or more between new material is a long wait and it could be tough to keep more casual fans interested until the next trade is released. And I would be kind of sad if we only got one Guler cover for ever six issues worth of comics.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I find this line particularly hilarious: "According to SLG's President, Publisher and Owner Dan Vado, the Disney execs told him that the money they were taking in did not justify their administrative costs"

Because taking 9 weeks to read BG #4's 22 pages must have cost a bundle. I hope they're not covering for some other reason like disinterest.

As other folks have put it, in the long run, this could be a good thing for the series. The last two years have been an exercise in patience and consolidating to graphic novels a couple times a year be a significant improvement. It would reduce printing errors like with #6 and #8. Casual fans would be much more willing to pick it up infrequently rather than try to follow the current bizarre release schedule. I've also heard from many crusty old comic readers that they much prefer waiting for the trades instead of picking up single issues. Big boy bookstores and Amazon are also much more willing to stock graphic novels than the weekly Diamond haul. So if our miracle happens, we could be tapping back into that 7,500 person market that bought the 1st issue and beyond. Well, here's to wishful thinking.

Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]

I get a lot of e-mail from Nigeria, asking for help in transferring millions of dollars.

I wonder why this topic was never explored in the show.

Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]

Greg's Response> Much as I expected. I would have been very surprised if Greg has decided to throw in the towel at this point and that obviously isn't the case. Most of it is what we already knew or could have guessed, but there are a few helpful bits of information. I hope the information on what SLG heard from Disney will put to rest the "Disney turned down free money" argument. We don't know exactly what the Disney licensing and approval process entails, but we know they have employees who have to be paid and probably computer related expenses as well and every licensed product has to contribute to paying those costs enough to make the time spent on the product worthwhile. To simplify, if you have machine that makes ten widgets that you sell for a dollar each and it costs $100 to make a production run of all ten widgets, you need to sell 10 of each widget to break even and more to make a profit. If your regularly sell 30 or more of nine of the widgets, but only 7 or less of the tenth one, you're still making money, but one widget isn't covering its cost. You could just keep letting the other nine widgets make up for the underperforming tenth, but you'd probably be better off discontinuing that widget and making a new one that might turn a profit. Disney apparently figured that the time and resources spent on the Slave Labor comics on their end was not worth the money they were getting in return and could be better spent elsewhere.

It is very heartening to know that Dan Vado hasn't soured on the idea of a "Gargoyles" comic and is looking at negotiating a new deal with Disney sometime in the future. I'm guessing that he and Greg have developed a pretty good working relationship, based on the fact that SLG is publishing two new books written by Greg. It is still going to help to spread the word about the comic and the trades when the comic is finished, since SLG needs to turn a profit too and the better the trades sell, the better the chances that Vado will feel good about the chances for "Gargoyles" graphic novels.

Algernon> Ah, my mistake. I thought you were referring to the fact that the original "Star Trek" was not tremendously successful on its first run but went on to become extremely popular and spawn a huge franchise for Paramount to mismanage. ;)

Of course, one of the things that has helped "Star Trek" to survive and reincarnate again and again is that new expressions of "Star Trek" can introduce a completely new set of character and keep the concept the same rather than continuing the same story and relying on the fact that viewers have seen the previous series and remember what's going on. It kind of makes you wonder if it would have been better to make one of the spin-offs as a comic instead of continuing the main "Gargoyles" story, so that new readers could jump in more easily and fans' knowledge of the series would be more of a bonus than a requirement.

Ed> I would tend to agree that direct-to-DVD "Gargoyles" movies are pretty unlikely, only slightly less so than the live action movie getting made. I'm mostly just throwing out all the possibilities I can think of. I wrote an essay a few years ago suggesting that Disney should dump the largely second-rate sequels to classic animated films and use the direct-to-DVD format to try out some more risky, less typically "Disney" projects in a form that carries less risk than a full theatrical release. If Disney ever did decide to do that, "Gargoyles" would be a good candidate. But I agree, it's unlikely.

King Cobra> I received the same e-mail. I pondered it for a bit and decided that your grammar is generally better than that and that there were probably any number of people you would contact way before me if you really were in such a financial spot. I was going to e-mail you to let you know that your address book had probably been grabbed by a spammer, but now you know. Good luck getting your e-mail fixed and scammer-free.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

A little bit of fun to try and bury the bummed feeling over the books.

Here's a video from Comic-Con of Jonathan "EXCELLENT" Frakes busting into song at a nearby bar during the con.


Reminiscent of


Matt> Thanks. I'm trying to get the password on it reset, but MSN keeps giving me the run-around and it's honestly giving me a headache.

Maybe I'll know how to deal with it better with a few hours sleep and a clear head.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

King Cobra> I got the same email. I pretty much knew it wasn't you, but couldn't figure it out. Anyway, hope you get things worked out alright.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

The vast majority of the e-mail coming out of Nigeria is from scammers. Most of the stories unravel quickly when one realizes that no one goes to Lagos for legitimate business or to attend college. The biggest businesses in Lagos are internet cafes and advance fee scamming.


In other news... The Gathering of the Gargoyles still has some t-shirts and Anthologies left from this year's convention. Get 'em while they're hot... the remaining copies of the Anthology in particular are likely to go quickly.


Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Kimberly T.> I just read your posting and it is as I have feared. Someone's hacked into my hotmail account.

I just want to alert you that I am neither in Nigeria nor able to get into my Hotmail account, due to, as you've said, an apparent hacking in by person or persons unknown to me. Just the fact that said individuals would use my name in that attempted internet scam is appalling to me. Wish I knew who the dips**t was. I'd report his/her sorry ass.

For the time being, until this matter is resolved, you and everyone else can reach me at another email address.


KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

for some reason after I read Greg W's sig .. I heard an explosion.. hmmm..

well, I do think Gargs can revive itself again.. we got the gathering in 97, the DVD's in 04 and 05 (I think we were damn lucky to even get the first half of season 2) ... in 06, we got the comic, 07, we got Bad Guys, now we also have the first half of the paperback and continuing to finish (at least some) part of the real season 3 that's not Fanfic or The Goliath Chronicles..

that's pretty damn, good if you ask me..

who knows what's next ..might be another few years.. but if we've learned anything from Demona and the Weird Sisters .. what's time to an immortal :)


Disappointing news.

I concur that GARGOYLES might work best in graphic novel format--I've thought that for a while now, actually. It lets Greg tell a complete "episode" or two in a single go (as opposed to the comics, where at best it takes six months to tell an "episode"--people's memories get stale). I think this would work better for the comic--not that getting individual issues was bad, but #1-2 and 3-5 read better when read altogether, IMO, than when they're parsed out over a longer time period. The art quality would also improve, if an artist didn't feel pressured to crank out an issue faster than normal because of the lengthy approval process. And perhaps best of all, the graphic novel format would drastically cut down on delay issues. (And probably gives the rest of the spinoffs a greater chance to be made, to be perfectly frank.) So. As long as both Greg Weisman and Dan Vado have interest, not all is lost.


You don't need to hack an email account to forge someone's name. Anyone with the right skills can easily fake the 'From' line of an email. 'Nigeria' is the tell-tale sign that this is a scam. More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_fee_fraud Usually they promise money in return for your bank account number but this one just preys on a kind heart and asks for money outright. Never send your bank number or wire transfers overseas or you can lose lots of money. Just ignore it.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email]

Never mind the previous post; D. Taina and A Fan have both confirmed that he was chatting online with them yesterday, and I think if he'd been enroute to Nigeria, he'd have said something about it. It's just another Nigerian money scam, this time by someone who's hacked King Cobra's email account.
Kimberly T - [kimbertow at yahoo dot com]
Kimberly T

I want to say right at the start that I don't plan to make a habit of this, okay? Not that I don't get along with most everyone in Gargoyles fandom, but I just don't do chat rooms; I have a 56K modem, I type slowly and compulsively correct myself, which slows me down even more. I'm only commenting here to post this, from an email I just received. It's definitely from King Cobra's hotmail account; only question is whether he's really the one who wrote it:

I am sorry I didn't inform you about my urgent traveling to Africa for a program called Empowering Youth to Fight Racism, HIV/AIDS, Poverty and Lack of Education, I think i will be able to return the next day. the program is taking place in three major countries in Africa which are Ghana, South Africa and Nigeria. It as been a very sad and bad moment for me, the present condition that I found myself is very hard for me to explain. I am really stranded in Nigeria because i forgot my little bag in the taxi where my money, passport,documents and other valuable things were kept on my way to the hotel am staying,I am facing a hard time here because I have no money on me. I am now owning a hotel bill of $1,000 and they wanted me to pay the bill soon else they will have to seize my bag and hand me over to the Hotel Management.I need this help urgently to help me back home,I need you to help me with the hotel bill and i will also need $1,200 to feed and help myself back home so please can you help me with a sum of $2,200 to sort out my problems here? I need this help so much and on time because i am in a terrible and tight situation here,I don't even have money to feed myself for a day which means i had been starving so please understand how urgent i needed your help.
I am sending you this e-mail from the city of Lagos in Nigeria,I will appreciate what so ever you can afford to send me for now and I promise to pay back your money as soon as i return home. The only way to receive money from abroad here is through Western union money transfer or Money gram. I will be waiting to read from you so i can give you details to send money to me.

King Cobra

So. I've heard that King Cobra chats, or used to. Can anyone here contact him by some means other than email, and find out if KC's really gone and gotten himself in one stupid-ass bind, or if it's just that his email account has been hacked by someone who took the time to read his 'sent' emails and find out how he signs his emails, the better to scam his buddies with? I'm betting the latter, but I'd like to make sure.

After he's contacted, if it turns out there really is a serious problem, I can be reached at my regular email address, found in all my stories.

Kimberly T - [kimbertow at yahoo dot com]
Kimberly T

*Sigh*, well I can't say as I'm surprised with all the delays and all. But if Greg still has hope than I do too. Who knows? Maybe by the end of the SLG run, it'll be picked up by Kingdom or another company which can get stuff out on time better.

Thanks Greg. I feel better now.

If things can work out that kingdom or whoever picks up and starts publishing the series, that'd be cool, but I honestly think that graphic novels, maybe one or two a year, might be best. Guess we'll see what happens. I'm gonna keep the faith and I'm not gonna give up on this series, but part of me does feel that our second golden age is over. Maybe that is a bad way to put it, maybe the "frozen in stone hibernation" analogy is better, more apt.

Anyway. Lets keep pushing and get Gargoyles into its next stage, whatever stage that ends up being.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

****There is an explosion and a great ball of black flame bursts into being. The flames eventually change color to red and merge into the form of Blaise.**** That's an approximation of my feelings regarding the "Big Bad News."

THE (CURRENT) END OF THE RUN> Yeah, words could not adequately measure my disappointment when I read that the run would have to end because of the new licensing fee, but I'm not devastated. Maybe the fact that I read Greg Weisman's statement first helped, but like Greg B. I also had been mentally and emotionally prepared for something like this for quite some time. I just heave a sigh and think "back to the drawing board." But that does NOT mean "back to Square One"--the good Mr. Vado is still going to look into publishing "Gargoyles" material, and in spite of delays the comic did gain some momentum. I'll remain optimistic for the moment, and save the mourning bands until after the remaining 8 issues are published (if I have to use them at all).

Until next time, farewell. ****Blaise raises his arms and begins to float upwards. As he rises, light (seeming to come from above) suffuses the Room until it becomes blinding. Suddenly, the light is gone...and so is Blaise.****

"Rather than be sad it's over...be glad it happened."--no idea where it's from.

Thanks for your comments, Greg. (And, while I'm at it, thanks for your regular visits to the comment room to talk to us and encourage us. I think it encourages us to support the series by knowing that the man who came up with it is willing to post here on these matters.)

ED - I don't have any doubts about how good "Progeny" and "Mecha-Nation" might be. I don't go in enough for the mainstream super-hero genre to really notice them. (I remember watching the first season of "Max Steel" because Greg was working on it, but it never grabbed me, and I suspect that it was because I don't go in enough for the secret agent genre.) Though maybe I should give them a try, for the reasons you've mentioned.

Todd Jensen

I am upset to hear that neither series got renewed. That was not something I was expecting to read this afternoon. Is this out of the blue? No, for many of the reasons already discussed. I'm not going to bash anyone. I'm glad to have gotten what we've gotten, and glad that we will at least finish the story arcs of BAD GUYS and GARGOYLES in some way or another. Am I hopeful that it will be picked up again, either by SLG or another publisher? Yeah, a bit. So things are not hopeless. We'll get new stuff, that's what I'm glad about.

Cheers, Greg. And very, very good luck!

Cool to hear Dan Vado's still got his eye on the series, and knowing that Disney are upping the price because of financial concerns is, I guess, a relief.

I'm really looking forward to reading the #10-12 story in (probably) one go. Would be nice to get a big-sized #10 for Guler's art, mind.

Todd: I know how you feel, but this stuff really isn't complicated in the slightest. It's like another e-mail program except less difficult to set up.

Demonskrye: I can't see D2DVD movies being remotely financially viable. Novels would be a big time commitment from Greg, and would a publisher take it on? Webpublishing may be a solid solution. But would Disney want to spend their time on such a small-scale endeavour? Might be interesting to test the waters with something like the Gargoyles Encyclopedia.

Another thing. I know people are saying of PROGENY and MECHA-NATION that they're not enthusiastic for this reason or that reason or that it's not Gargoyles. But I think the books really deserve the benefit of the doubt for two reasons.

1. It'll be a great thing for SLG and Greg to have a success that's not made payable to Disney. As long as Greg's personal fanbase is strong, SLG will still have a big incentive to keep pushing Disney for a deal; and as long as there's buzz around Greg's work, Gargoyles will get attention from new fans as well.

2. They're likely to be very good: whatever your first impressions, remember Greg's penchant for tapestry-building and incorporating ideas from diverse sources. I'm reminded of when Firefly came out. I remember at the time hearing Buffy fans heaping scorn on it because the creator was abandoning Buffy and Angel or whatnot. Once the thing was worm food, suddenly people realised it was something special. New comics have a tough enough time as it is and it would be a great shame to realise too late that it's another winner.


I'll hope for the graphic novels. I like that much better than the single comic issues. More to read, cheaper (relative) in transport, easier to shelf.

Diamond doesn't show an August 6th release date for Bad Guys #4: http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/upcomingreleases.txt but maybe SLG hasn't informed them yet, or something.

This the key line for me: "After a year, he (Dan Vado) hopes to go back to Disney with a different, perhaps more modest offer to do Gargoyles Graphic Novels. Might work out. Might not. But he's still game"

There's plenty of stories still to come and in that time any number of things could have between Greg/Dan/Disney/Kingdom/etc. So I was wrong before in that the fans should 'pick up the torch' in trying to save the series since there's still hope on several fronts for the big wigs to sort it out themselves. But as Greg says, we should keep spreading the word on the great stuff upcoming in the current line.

Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]

THE BIG BAD NEWS (and a little bit of good news).

As many of you have probably heard, we found out Saturday (7/26/08) at San Diego ComicCon that the GARGOYLES (including BAD GUYS) license will not be renewed after it expires on 8-31-08.

Just to be very, very clear... this is NOT the result of poor sales. GARGOYLES is still one of the best selling book SLG publishes (if not THE best). BAD GUYS doesn't do too badly either by SLG standards. Of course, delays didn't help sales... and there are probably other factors that reduced the upside -- including the writing -- but none of that is the point.

According to SLG's President, Publisher and Owner Dan Vado, the Disney execs told him that the money they were taking in did not justify their administrative costs. So they raised the license renewal fee to a rate that put it beyond SLG's reach. (Dan had hoped to renew both Gargoyles and Haunted Mansion -- though not Tron or Wonderland -- but neither book will now be picked up.)

I don't know what effect recent announcements about Kingdom Comics and Boom! Comics had on this decision. Dan was told one thing had nothing to do with the other. No one at either company has approached me about doing Gargoyles, and I don't know that there will be any interest now that the license is coming to an end.

That's the bad news. But there is a bit of a silver lining.


We will finish both GARGOYLES: Clan-Building and BAD GUYS: Redemption. That's the equivalent of seven more issues of material.

BAD GUYS #4 should be out next week. The book is done and has been done for some time. It's been sent to the printers.

GARGOYLES #9 will hopefully be out next month. David is done with the art. All that remains is for Robby to color it and David to letter it -- tasks that both these gentlemen have proven able to do with great speed.

Whether or not the remaining issues (BAD GUYS #5-6 and GARGOYLES #10-12) are published as individual issues is a bit up in the air. BAD GUYS #5 and GARGOYLES #10 have decent (if long) shots at getting out in time. But whatever doesn't get out as individual issues will still be scripted, drawn, colored or toned, lettered and published as "BONUS MATERIAL" in individual trade paperbacks that will collect GARGOYLES: Clan-Building Volume II and BAD GUYS: Redemption. And these compilations WILL come out! There's still a lot of work to be done. (Personally, I still need to script Gargoyles #11-12.) So I WON'T take this moment to thank everyone and say au revoir. That'll come later. For now, we're still a going concern.

In addition, Dan hasn 't given up on us. He wants to put out these two new trades and keep all three trades available for sale (and btw we sold a bunch of the trades at ComicCon -- when I left Sunday at 1pm, hours before close of con, we only had a handful of Clan-Building Volume I left to sell). After a year, he hopes to go back to Disney with a different, perhaps more modest offer to do Gargoyles Graphic Novels. Might work out. Might not. But he's still game and just in case it isn't 100% clear...


I'm as determined as ever -- if not moreso -- to continue bringing you canon Gargoyles stories. The eighteen issues we've done/are doing have only whetted my appetite! I'm still going to be out here swinging... for more comics or graphic novels, for the DVD releases, for a live action film, etc. But I can't do it alone! So please don't you guys give up on Gargoyles either!

Remember, a few years ago, we didn't even have this. In that time, we will have brought you two big arcs, six big stories, eighteen "episodes" and numerous sub-plots, plot-twists, new characters and old familiar favorites. Would we have Shari, Quincy, Coco, Amp, etc. if the fans haven't kept the faith?! No. Would we grok the Illuminati number system?! No. Would we have seen Goliath and Elisa declare their love?! NOPE!!! (Oh, and for those of you who wish Demona could have figured more prominently in the comic... well, guys do you really think I'd do a twelve issue re-introductory story arc in Gargoyles without prominently including the crazy red head? Please.)

So what can YOU do? Well, nothing's changed on that front, really. We still need people to buy comics, trades, DVDs, HOT TOPIC T-Shirts. We still need people to attend the GATHERING. (Check out www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com ) And whether or not you've spent all the disposable income you have to spend on the property, then help us SPREAD THE WORD!!!! Make sure every gargoyle fan knows about what's out there. Show friends the first 39 episodes on DVD. Lend them the comics or trades. Create converts.

And mostly... just keep the faith.

Greg Weisman

Algernon: While I don't dismiss the idea that Gargoyles will get another chance at continue, does Star Trek and Transformers work as a comparision. I say that as Gargoyles doesn't quite have the same name recognition as them.

Yeah, I know this is the part where I'm suppose to do my Disney tirade, but oddly enough, I don't feel the urge to do so. It was good while it lasted, and perhaps the fandom will increase after a while should Greg do more comics and shows.


Demonskrye> "I also assume you meant Star Trek:TOS, unless you're talking about the animated Star Trek for some reason."

I actually was refering to the animated trek. Like the SLG comic, the animated trek was an attempt to revive a decade old series in a new medium. But just because it didn't last long or wasn't uber popular didn't keep Star Trek from from trying again with greater success.

My point is just because this attempt to revive Gargoyles wasn't the mega success we hoped it would be doesn't mean we'll never get another chance.

Frankly I never had high expectations for the comic. There were a lot of factors working against it from endless delays to the apparent financial burden it was placing on SLG. Plus I honestly think the time wasn't right.

We're going through a period when 80s nostalgia is very big in our pop culture as evidenced by stuff like the Star Wars prequals, Michael Bay's Tranformers and the latest Indiana Jones film. Nowhere is this more true then the comic book industry. Next time your in your local comic book store try counting how many Transformers titles you see on the rack.

It is my fervent belief that sooner or later the 90s nostalgia will start. When that happens it will be our best oppertuinity to bring back Gargoyles. It might not happen for years but our chance will come again.

And even if it doesn't I'm more the grateful for what we've been given. The fact that I'm holding an actual issue of Bad Guys in my hand is to my mind, nothing less then a small miriacle. My attitude is frankly one of celebration. I'm not going to star thinking; "oh man, we're only getting twelve issues of Gargoyles comics!" I'm going to be thinking; "oh man, we're getting a whole twelve issues of Gargoyles comics, and a mini series to boot!"


Issue 12, (what we now know as the last issue) is called Phoenix...but I think it means more than just the Phoenix Gate: the phoenix rises from the ashes when it dies...so too, I think, will Gargoyles.
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, You will find the same man going back on this a moment later."--C.S. Lewis

Well, let's try this when I'm awake and w/o all the spelling errors
The 11th hour has arrived!
TODAY (7/28/08) is the last day to reserve a room for CopperCon 28 at the convention rate (the date on website is in error). On August 1st the membership rate goes to full price.
Looks like the total membership will be less than 300, so if you've ever wanted to meet both Greg Weisman and David Hedgecock and score some real face time with them this could be your last, best chance. Ever?
ALL THE DETAILS AT www.coppercon.org

CASFS - [cucon_publicity at yahoo dot com]

Some additional thoughts:

Anonymous> Well it really wouldn't make much sense for Ed or I to talk about how people would pay for the material, since neither of us is Greg Weisman or someone who works with him, so anything we do come up with has little or no bearing on what may or may not actually happen. No matter what medium any future "Gargoyles" stories are told, there are probably some people who will find it hard if not impossible to get a hold of them. As you yourself noted, overseas fans probably don't make up a huge chunk of the readership for "Gargoyles" and overseas fans who won't use PayPal are probably an even smaller minority. It is fine if you feel that way, but any purveyor of entertainment can only go so far in trying to make sure everyone who wants the product gets it. Any medium has its own distribution issues. We know that some people have had trouble getting the SLG comic for reasons unrelated to the frequent delays. In the end, it's on you to decide whether you'd rather get to read new "Gargoyles" stories or avoid using payment methods you don't like. Of course, we don't even know if this is an issue yet and we won't until we hear what Greg W has to say on the matter.

Todd> If "Gargoyles" ever does return as a podcast, I wouldn't worry. You really don't need much more than an internet-enabled computer with speakers to listen in. I could probably show you how to retrieve and listen to podcasts in the space of a few hours (though you may want to ask someone else, since I have a Mac and I'm guessing you don't.) Again though, it's probably premature to worry about problems we might have accessing any future "Gargoyles" stories when we still haven't heard from Greg.

Algernon> I agree. The only reason I would give up all hope of "Gargoyles" ever continuing in any form was if Greg Weisman outright said he wasn't going to keep working on it. As several of us have said before, it's pretty amazing that the SLG comic happened at all. That being said, I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for the next incarnation of "Gargoyles" and I do realize that this won't make it any easier to convince Disney that the property is worth supporting. But I don't see much point in throwing in the towel and never thinking about "Gargoyles" again for the rest of my life.

I also assume you meant Star Trek:TOS, unless you're talking about the animated Star Trek for some reason.

Avatar> Someone brought this up previously, but I was away on vacation, so I didn't get around to watching the finale until last Friday. I enjoyed the whole series immensely and it now joins the select few animated series which are the standard that I judge all others against. Unfortunately, I have to agree with Greg Weisman's past statement on "Ask Greg" that it doesn't seem to have spawned a bunch of similar shows and i don't know when we'll see its like again. (I think Nickelodeon did try to duplicate the success of "Avatar" with a show I remember as "Skyland," but the level of quality just wan't there.)

As to why "Avatar" managed to finish its story where so many other animated shows with continuing stories have not, I think a lot of stars aligned correctly for "Avatar." The popularity of anime was proving the potentail of not only characters with big eyes doing martial arts, but action-adventure cartoons with an overarcing epic storyline. The show was good, it found its audience, and it became popular. I think a big factor was that "Avatar" was written with an end in sight. Even if the creators didn't know exactly how the show would conclude from the first episode, I think most viewers could tell pretty early on that Aang would eventually have to confront the Fire Lord and that based on the structure of the first season, there probably wouldn't be more than four seasons total. (It ended up being three.) Three seasons, or even four seasons, is not an unachievable goal. Based on what we know of Greg's plans for "Gargoyles," there is enough material to cover over 200 years in the Gargoyles Universe. The television series ran in an approximation of real time, with the year in the Gargoyles Universe being the same as the year in the viewer's world. Had that continued to be the case, it seems highly unlikely that Greg would have ever been able to tell the entire "Gargoyles" story as a TV show.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I can't say I'm suprised, I've pretty much been expecting this for the last two years. Still I'm not going to be nashing my teeth over this. Frankly I'm just relieved that we're getting the rest of Clan-Building and Bad Guys.

And as far as I'm concerned Gargoyles isn't dead yet, merely in stone hibernation for the forseeable future. There are many examples of franchises that have had failed revivels only to come back later, stonger then ever. Star Trek: TAS floped after one season only to come back with four TV series and eleven movies. In a more pertinant example, the Transformers G2 comic barely made it to twelve issues despite being written by fan favourite Simon Furman. Then along comes Beast Wars and suddenly folks can't get enough of Optimus Prime and Megatron beating the crap out of each other.

My point is that people shouldn't get disheartened. We all knew this was an uphill battle to begin with but just because we got knocked down a peg dosn't mean we should just give up.


My Hope filled first, so there! :P
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, You will find the same man going back on this a moment later."--C.S. Lewis

:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
Battle Beast
That is all I will say.

Well, we can hope in one hand and **** in the other and we all know which one will fill first.

I'm waiting on news from the man in charge to see if he can or plans on striking a deal with Kingdom or another comic book publisher. Maybe he's done. Does anyone know for certain other than Greg himself? No. So I suggest we be patient and possibly change the topic from this ****ty news.

The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Anthony Tini

Oh ouch...some wake up call. Not that I'm surprised, but it wasn't what I wanted to read at first thing in the morning.

I guess the next thing to do, is make a play for Kingdom Comics...*SIGH*. We've got hope after all...plenty of hope.

Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, You will find the same man going back on this a moment later."--C.S. Lewis

The 11th hour has arrived!
TODAY (7/28/08) is the last day to reserve a room for CopperCon 28 at the convention rate. On August 1st the memebership rate goes to full price.
Looks like the total membership will be less than 300, so if you've ever wanted to meet both Greg Weisman and David Hedgeock and score some real face time with them this could be your last, best chance. Ever?
ALL THE DETAILS AT www.coppercon.org

CASFS - [cucon_publicity]

It's sad to hear about the license. Lets hope it won't take another ten years to get new material again.

Apropros fanfiction, besides fanfiction.net and gargoyles-fans.org are there any larger fanfic archives or communities for Gargoyles? Current fare at both sites is rather few and rarely fits my interests.

As for novel or podcast. You have great ideas, but only ever take about paying somehow, never how. You won't get me to use Paypal and I won't send anything across the sea. (Although oversea fans probably made only a very small percentage of the readership.)

Concerning Progeny and Mecha Nation, if the designs are like the preview, I won't bother to go through the hassle and money drain of importing the comics. I just despise that style. On top of that, the countless slew of mary sueish, crappy human-turned-robot fanfics in the Transformers fandom have turned me off quite thorougly of that idea.

At least we are better of with the Gargoyles comics than the Tron fans were. That comic started at the same time as Gargoyles and the sixth and last issue hasn't even been announced yet, and the characters are hardly ever reconizable (and apparently changing age, so whether that is intentional or just bad drawing, I don't know).
-And it didn't even feature Tron (I'm sick of the whiny human Jet Bradley and his psycho trip.)


Well this certainly isn't what I wanted to see first thing in the morning. (Not that I'm blaming you, IRC Goliath. I'd rather know than not know and I have no desire to kill the messenger.)

I agree very strongly with much of what Greg B has said. After so many years since the end of the TV series without any big surge of nostalgia putting the show back in the spotlight, it's really amazing that the comic happened at all. When all is said and done, we'll have 18 issues worth of new stories, which is more than a lot of fandoms could ever hope for. Of course I would have preferred for the comic to continue, but I'm still happy that we got what we did.

I also agree with Patrick that we don't have nearly enough information to be jumping to the conclusion that Disney just upped the licensing fees and that's why the comic wasn't renewed. That may be what happened, but it's also possible that SLG proposed a lower price that more accurately reflected what they could afford given the production costs versus the actual sales of the comics and Disney wouldn't drop the price. It could also be that SLG's costs are higher than when they first bought the license. Rising oil and gasoline prices are effecting the cost of just about EVERYTHING and comics- which need to be transported from the printer to your local comic shop - are no exception. It's easy to assume that the huge monolithic company is at fault, but we do need to keep in mind that the Disney Company is made up of many many individuals with varying roles and agendas, for good or ill. Remember, if someone at Disney who was responsible for comics licensing hadn't told Slave Labor that there were these people who had worked on this show called "Gargoyles" and really wanted to start it up again as a comic and maybe SLG should talk to them and try to work out a deal, we'd all be sitting around looking at the "TRON," "Wonderland," and "Haunted Mansion" comics and wishing that "Gargoyles" could have had a comic too.

Ed, I think you're on the right track in thinking that maybe the next incarnation of "Gargoyles" won't be a comic or a TV show, but something else. It would be great if Kingdom Comics or Boom! Studios picked up the license, but they both seems to have a specific focus in what Disney properties they're working on right now. Plus, both they and Disney can now unfortunately look at the numbers on the SLG comics and conclude that there just isn't sufficient interest in a "Gargoyles" comic, whether or not that conclusion is fair. It may take quite a bit of convincing for Disney to decide that revisiting "Gargoyles" again is a worthwhile endeavor, but maybe a new medium would help.

Radio podcasts are certainly a viable option. I had suggested a long time ago that podcasts would be a good way to create additional commentaries for the "Gargoyles" DVDs without even needing approval from Disney. It would have its own challenges, but it's worth investigating. Other possibilities I;ve though might work for continuing "Gargoyles" are novels, paid subscription website (which you could use to tell stories in any number of ways), and direct-to-DVD movies. All have their own benefits and challenges and I'd love to discuss them further.

I'm eager to hear what Greg has to say about the end of the SLG comic and the future of "Gargoyles" once he's home and recovered from Comic Con.

Demonskrye: - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I'm too cautious around technology that I'm not familiar with to go in for podcasts, so I'm afraid that if "Gargoyles" switched to that format, I'd be likely to lose out on it.

I'll probably continue to hope for "Gargoyles" to be continued in some form, though, instead of just Greg coming out with "Progeny" and "Mecha-Nation", since one of its features that most appealed to me was the use of history, legend, and classic literature (which came most to the fore, in the comic, in the Stone of Destiny story). I don't think that the premises of "Progeny" and "Mecha-Nation" will allow for such incorporation as well as the premise of medieval Scottish gargoyles awakening in the modern world did.

Todd Jensen

Thanks for being the bearer of bad news, IRC Goliath.

Not a huge surprise, but very depressing. Fingers crossed for Kingdom.

And please, can we not play the 'blame game' at all? It does nobody any good and you could make a case against more or less everyone involved if you really want.

The up-side:

* Greg Weisman has original comics coming out again. His profile is higher than ever. One way or another we're going to get great Greg material and the chances of new Gargoyles material must be higher too.

* It's clear that Gargoyles *can* sustain a comic, two in fact, despite terrible delays. We were always competitive with other licensed franchises, e.g. Sonic. The comic must be a decent prospect still if a company can afford to keep it on track and absorb Disney's license fee.

* Greg's expanded the world in an interesting way -- and there's still 7 more issues left to come.

Also, I think we should all remember to be grateful to all the people who made the comic happen AT ALL. To the people at SLG -- Dan Vado, Jennifer de Guzman and whoever else. To Greg Guler and Kaioto. To all the artists, and particularly David and Karine. It's incredible the comic has come as far as it has.


A crazy thought.

Does anyone think it would be at all feasible for the series to be continued... as radio podcasts?

For a very rough potential example:

A season of six half-hour monthly podcasts written by Greg Weisman, read by Jeff Bennett. Possibly featuring Carl Johnson's score from the show and promo art from Greg Guler. $19.95 for a subscription or $3.50 an episode.

Very simple. Very small.

I realise there are two major problems: -

1. Disney may not even consider it. They stand to make not-much-money and yet could be associated with something that could be risky. If they did license it, they may make it very expensive -- as they proposed to do with Creature Comics.

2. How to get the start-up cash?

But after that, it strikes me that it might be the most sustainable future for the show.

In terms of costs, you'd have the costs of the voice actor and the recording studio. (How long would it take to record 3 hours' material?) Then there's whatever post-production is entailed, the cost of bandwidth and some kind of secure sales software. I don't know if radio would be more time-consuming to script than comics.

I'd guess these costs would be smaller than those entailed in the comic: producing art, colours and lettering, then inking, printing and distributing nationally and internationally. And half an hour on the radio would probably be the equivalent of two or three comics in terms of story.

Take-up: if it was advertised in the comics, and perhaps plugged on Newsarama or what have you, there'd be at least a few thousand *potential* people.

I don't know what a reasonable price for this would be. No doubt it would be expensive compared to most Itunes TV or whatnot (judging from UK prices, I'd assume most shows are in the $3-4 range per download). But then, people are paying that for each comic already, and potentially the radio episodes would have more story.

It would also be much more accessible. Not everybody has a local comic shop, but I'd think more people have -- or can gain access to -- Itunes. Hopefully it wouldn't be too difficult to distribute internationally. And perhaps the problem of people forgetting the comic is out would be avoided with up-front subscriptions, and if the shows are recorded at once, there's no reason why it should be delayed.

Big Finish Audios do a similar thing with Doctor Who -- during the years it wasn't on TV, they started releasing regular radio dramas on CD. These had the benefit of a larger core audience and the original television voice actors so it's not a perfect comparison, but still...

Just putting it out there. What do other people think?


Man, what a way to start my week. With bad news.

My first reaction to this news was to swear. A LOT! But then I read your comments and you guys made me feel better. Yeah, its sucks that we got a second cancellation. But its a miracle we even had an opportunity for a second cancellation. Only one other fandom comes to my mind that got a chance like this, another fandom Im proud to be a part of: Firefly. Cancelled show but us Browncoats got our movie! Gargoyles was a cancelled show that got its chance as a comic series. Yes, it a series that was cancelled in the prime of its life (and I say prime because there was plans for a continuation of Bad Guys plus plot lines for Dark Ages, Timedancer, and Pendragon) but Gargoyles got the chance to live again!

And, heck, Im just glad we'll get to see even the smallest glimpse of a Timerdancer plot. If they had cancelled the comics during this current arc without any plans to show the three Timerdancer comics, I would have held onto my anger for a lot longer.

But Im curious as to the details behind this cancellation. So I hope Greg Weisman hurries back from Comic*Con so he can give us the full scoop. But thank you, fellow fans. Youve given me hope again. Especially you, Landon Thomas, because you are so right that we'll have a nice long drawn-out ending ^_^


Unless someone revealed the price tag at Comic Con (which is doubtful), we have no basis to say that fault lies with Disney for being "too greedy". They may not have been asking any more for the license than they charged the first time, but other costs have gone up in the meanwhile. Who knows? If we're going to play the blame game, I think most of it has to lie with the production schedule and it's impact on sales to casual fans.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Pity that Disney apparently got too greedy. Though I wasn't that certain that the license would get renewed, anyway, after all those delays in the issue releases (which were probably the chief reason for the low sales).

I hope that this doesn't spell the end for any official continuation of "Gargoyles" in some other form. Disney could now say, whenever anyone petitions them to bring "Gargoyles" back, that they tried to do so and their attempt failed. So I have the suspicion that any further "Gargoyles" stories after "Clan-Building" and "Bad Guys" will be fanfic.

Maybe Greg will simply revise the remainder of the "Gargoyles" stories that he'd wanted to tell for "Progeny" and "Mecha-Nation" (of course, it would probably take a lot of revision to make them fit the rules of different universes). It won't be the same as a true continuation, but (short of telling us how they'd have wound up at "Ask Greg") I don't think he'd have any other options after this.

Todd Jensen

Lose the battle . . . win the war. We might lose the slg license only to have Kingdom comics do gargoyles comic with Greg Weisman. That's a victory. But for now, we need to hear from Greg Weisman before jumping the gun either way.
Whatever happened to simplicity?

Dang. Well, hmmm. Eager to see what Greg has to say. Man.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]

Brigadoon> "(really want #9 to come out asap, been dying for this one.)"

Yeah, join the club.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Comic cancellation> Man does this suck, big time. Seven more issues to go though, and I've got a feeling that these may be some of the best issues we're given.

Interestingly I found this the other week over in the archives. http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=161
From what I gather, it was written in late Febraury 1997 when Greg got the news that the original series wouldn't be renewed. Its an interesting read, all the moreso considering that 9 years after this was written we did have a comeback.

I'm not really surprised that the comic did get cancelled, considering the long waiting times between each issue (it's been almost eight months since we started the stone of destiny arc and still no resolution). This can't have made it easy to keep new readers hooked for so long.

Oh well, we had a nice run while it lasted, got some cool new characters, some interesting story developments (really want #9 to come out asap, been dying for this one.) What's interesting is that the cancellation didn't happen on Disney's part which means that they may still be interested in the property (although with a higher profit margin). The clan made a comeback once, hopefully they'll do it again.

Progeny/Mecha-Nation> was anything announced, revealed at comic-con about these two properties?

Brigadoon Traveller

I'm pretty bummed about it too. But, like everyone else, I'm glad that we at least got the issues that we've gotten. They've been great. My only regret is that Demona didn't feature more prominently (and I know that there are a variety of reasons for this, but that doesn't keep me from wishing we had seen more of her). The new stories have been awesome, and the new characters will doubtless provide fuel for lots of fanfiction or fanart in the future. I'm with dph, though, I don't see why Disney raised the fee. That seems pretty silly to me, but whatever.

On another note, has anyone seen the trailer for The Watchmen? I read the graphic novel a while back and loved it, and the movie looks STELLAR.


Comic cancellation> I'm disappointed, but at the same time, I'm happy to have gotten as much of the comics as we did. I agree with D. Taina. We should keep Gargoyles alive.

I have a feeling that, eventually, we'll get new Gargoyles stories again. Whether in a new comic or a new series or whatever medium. I'm confident this is not the end of it.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

I'm with Greg B in that I'm not *completely* crushed by this news, only thoroughly tenderized. The plus side for me is that we still have seven great issues left to go and given the comics' languorous release dates, we're sure to have a nice, slooooooooooooooooooow end to the series. ;)

And as far as I'm concerned, anything by Greg is golden. We've got original stories coming next year with Progeny and Mecha-Nation. And the Spectacular Spider-Man has great momentum. I hope long and fruitful run will give Greg some weight to throw around in the biz and he'll get some of his original characters on the air again, Gargate or no.

I have to disagree with the sentiment behind Greg B's statement here: "As far as I'm concerned, it's not over until Greg says it's over."

Assuming I'm correct in my Gargoyles fandom lore, it was only through the effort of the fans that the Gathering was founded and run every year. And it was through the initial effort of a single fan, Martin Lund, that we've been blessed with any of these comics in the first place. I'll hold my tongue until Greg rambles, but I think we, the fans, should be prepared to pick up the torch again.

Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email]

Higher not hirer
Whatever happened to simplicity?

GXB - you're right. We got more than enough material to keep us going again for a long while.

But it's still stupid for Disney to up the cost of the license. That license represents essentially free money to Disney. Their profit is the license fee minus the cost of getting hiring somebody to review the comic to meet Disney standards. Apparently Disney's profit margin wasn't good enough for this deal and they thought it should be hirer. Talk about expecting too much. I thought Disney was getting a decent profit margin off the licensing agreement. Oh well. Maybe, kingdom comics will pick it up.

Whatever happened to simplicity?

It's like hearing the news of Gargoyles' cancellation all over again. Well... the fandom survived one cancellation; we'll survive another one. I'm grateful we're getting Gargoyles: Clan Building and Bad Guys. Just think of all the fanfic and fanart that's going to come out of this. I know the fandom will be stronger after this.

During this difficult time, I think we should all remember the following exchange from "City of Stone"...
Xanatos: I'm cancelling your show!
Demona: I think not!

See, Demona's not giving up on the show. ;) So, let's make sure these final issues sell well. Let's keep Gargoyles alive.

D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

Just to be clear, and I wanted to be the first to comment on this.

This is not the end of the world. Far from it. First, let's put things in perspective.

We are getting eighteen issues altogether that we would not have otherwise gotten, and honestly, we never had any right to expect to get. We got to re-visit the "Gargoyles Universe" and it was a great re-visit.

Am I disappointed? Yes. Am I heart broken? Not really. I've been emotionally prepared for this ever since it took us six months to get #2. But, we came back before, we can do it again.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not over until Greg says it's over. I'll wait for him to comment on it, but this is not going to affect me as a fan. I'm not jumping ship over this.

But, on a personal note, I already got more from "Gargoyles" than I had any right to expect. Inspiration for a career in the biz. Friends I love and trust with my life. If that is the most I ever get from "Gargoyles," I think it's great.

Do I want more? You bet your ass I do. But, in the mean time, we wait on Greg. See what he says he wants to do. In the mean time, I say we do what we can to make sure these final issues sell and sell well.

Good night.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
What would David Xanatos do? Well, he wouldn't sit at his computer bitching and moaning, that's for sure.


and crap about the Gargoyles license. :(


First a blackout, now this. Anyway, ninth.

Hello clan...

I have bad news from the SLG panel that took place this weekend during San Diego Comic Con:

The comic license will not be re-newed because the price Disney asked for was simply too high.

The current plan is too finish Gargoyles through issue 12 and Bad Guys through issue 6. However, it is unknown at this time how the material will be released. Depending on the availability of the artwork and the timing of the current license's expiration the remaining issues may not get published individually but may be released as a graphic novel. Regardless of how the material is deliever, Greg assured us that they will be completed (as in story, artwork, and color... except for Bad Guys whose artwork will remain black and white) one way or another. So on the bright side at least we will get to see the end of Gargoyles: Clan Building and Bad Guys.

The rest of the details I'll leave for Greg to fill in when he has time.

(IRC) Goliath
Why did the chicken cross the road? Ask Gorebash.

D. Taina

Make that 6th!!
Whatever happened to simplicity?

5th in the name of hoping to hear about a release date for bg #4 within a month.
Whatever happened to simplicity?

5th in the name of my New Volkswagon Gecko Green 2008 Bettle!!! Woot!
Battle Beast
That is all I will say.


What's the bad news?

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

3rd.... bad news?
"It is better to have a horrible ending than to have horrors without end."

Second-and it's a week of bad news:-(...


Since I'm signed up for my first Gathering next year, I'm going to start posting with my real name, Landon Thomas, rather than my internet name, Lumpmoose.

Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email]