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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending August 18, 2008

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Interclan Breeding> A minor note here. The fishy Avalon Clan guy could be a biological son of a Wyvern gargoyle and a Loch Ness gargoyle, not merely a distant descendent of the latter. No, he doesn't look like Greg's description of the Loch Ness gargs, but he is a blend of features of the two groups. He may not have the manta-like wings and dolphin-esque lower body, but he has plenty of aquatic features (including webbed digits). I think his general form and wings came from his Wyvern parent, with many of the details coming from his Loch Ness parent. Just my thought. As for Coco, I think her Scottish heritage is much farther back. She doesn't have a blend of features, just one feature: her wings.

Bad Guys #4> Glad we have a definite date for this one. Really looking forward to it. The Gathering really boosted my appetite for this one (almost moreso than Gargoyles #9). There was a couple pages of sample art from this book there which looked great. Also, during the Biology and Culture panel, I recall Greg (seemingly out of nowhere) state that he thinks we are gonna love this issue (assumingly for its biological issues). I want to know what that means exactly.

Future Tense> I agree that it'd be pretty boring if the Clones became near-perfect analogs to The Manhattan Clan's alter-egos. That said, I like the parralelism that can happen here and there. Keep us guessing how much Puck prophesized and how much he just made up. As for Burbank, he is the same age as the rest of the Clones. He may be the first to die or the last, who can say. I'd like to see Burbank get a mate and all that. Make him standout from Hudson a bit.

Brentwood> More than just Brentwood taking out Thailog and taking his place, I like the idea of Brentwood actually running the show for a while, manipulating Thailog in such a way that Thailog doesn't even notice and thinks he is the winner (can someone say "Xanatos Tag"?). Eventually, Thailog discovers the awful truth when he outlives his usefullness to Brentwood. His own creation has been using him the whole time and he is being replaced. I think it'd be very cool if Brentwood actually ends up creating the Thailog Shock Troops and uses them (in the Clone Wars perhaps?) to kill off Thailog.
I'd love to see Thailog's final moments, seeing that he himself has been cloned and turned into a mindless drone. Though if Brentwood creates the TST, he clearly learned Thailogs lessons, not just programming them with instructions to obey him, but actually replacing half their brains with a truly programmable computer. Poetic justice. In the words of Elisa: "What goes around comes around. I wouldn't want his karma."

Anyway, last night I rode my bike in the Moonlight Ramble, a 20-mile bike ride starting at midnight and taking me (and 10,000 other riders) through the streets of St. Louis. I'm exhausted, but it was a lot of fun. I wore my Hot Topic Gargoyles t-shirt. I thought the "Stone by day, Warriors by night" slogan on the back was appropriate for the late night shenanigans. No one said anything about the shirt, but I saw lots of people looking at Goliath on the front and I'm sure lots more people read the back. Anyway, who knows. Maybe, just maybe, it inspired someone you remembers the show to go home and google Gargoyles.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

So I'm not the only one who thought Brentwood might be a tad infatuated? It would be cute if I didn't think Thailog would break his little heart... The possibility of him being the one to off the megalomaniac didn't occur to me though. If Brentwood doesn't persue a romantic relationship with Thailog, it would be feasable; but it's kinda hard to hurt someone that you have (or had) feelings for.
Using Brentwood would be beyond scummy, but I can see Thailog doing it. I mean, look what he did to Demona. On the other hand, Brentwood has the ability to become a powerful enemy if provocted. Think Thailog is too arrogant to consider the possibility?

Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf> So I figured that the smart bald guy would be the one to cause trouble? I can dig it.

It is equally possible that Puck figured that Lex's technological know-how would make him both ideal to take over Xanatos's operations and the most potentially dangerous were he to switch sides. We don't know yet if Brentwood shares Lex's affinity and aptitude for technology, but it is worth noting that his given reason for joining Thailog is that he admires Thailog's intelligence. If Brentwood does end up being as sharp as Lex, he could pose some major problems for the Manhattan Clan and, potentially Thailog.

I was in a bit of a rush last night so I didn't quite finish my point about why I think Brentwood may end killing Thailog. It'd make for great shock value and immediately elevate Brentwood's status as a villain. It would take Thailog out of the picture, keeping the rogue's gallery to a manageable size without any of the protagonists having to take out Thailog themselves. If it's true that Brentwood has a bit of a crush on Thailog and that Thailog will use this to his advantage, Brentwood could eventually realize that Thailog has been using him and decide to take his revenge. I could easily see him playing the faithful, weak-minded lackey and biding his time until the opportunity to strike presents itself. Brentwood turning on Thailog would also be a nice parallel to Xanatos's own relationship with Thailog. Xanatos wanted to create a gargoyle with a world view more in line wih his own. Thailog learned his lesson a little too well to the point where he would turn against Xanatos if it served his own interests. Brentwood could end up serving that same role for Thailog, absorbing Thailog's view so thoroughly that he eventually starts to wonder what a smart guy like him needs Thailog for.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Puck might also have chosen Lexington as the traitor because Lex would be most believable as the guy running the Xanatos Program - the one who has the most technical know-how.

The clock tower's destruction would be all the more a coincidence since, even if Puck knew about the Hunters, I don't think that they would have showed up in this Manhattan - or at least, not in quite the same manner (with neither Goliath, Elisa, not Angela present, the events of "Hunter's Moon" would have had to taken an entirely different turn in that scenario).

Also, "Future Tense" didn't fit Xanatos's style of villainy - it was far too melodramatic and extravagant. And probably too melodramatic and extravagant for Thailog as well - like Xanatos, he'd probably prefer to keep the system the way that it was and exploit it for his private benefit, rather than become an open dictator. I don't know if it's too melodramatic and extravagant for Brentwood.

Todd Jensen

Huh... I figured Puck made Lex the villian in 'Future Tense' because he'd read too much Superman ;P
Grey Wolf

Clones and "Future Tense"> I think it would actually get kind of tedious if everything that happened in "Future Tense" came to pass in some form in the real world. I like seeing little nods to it here and there, but I personally feel like a literal equivalent of every event from "Future Tense" would start to feel like way too much, even if it is done through the clones. Keep in mind that, at the end of the day, "Future Tense" was just a nightmare created by Puck with the end goal of leaving Goliath so shocked, horrified, and emotionally drained that he would be willing to hand over the Phoenix Gate. Yes, Puck is magic, but we have absolutely no evidence that he can predict the future and plenty of evidence to suggest that he was making up his tale of a post-apocalyptic Manhattan as he went along. We know that Greg is putting this stuff in as purposeful nods to "Future Tense," but in the context of the story, it could all just be coincidence. At the most, it could be the fact that Puck has had centuries to observes and learn about human and gargoyle nature and may have picked up on certain traits in the members of the Manhattan Clan that could have caused them to act in particular ways had their lives taken a different path. And while the Manhattan Clan themselves may never turn out as they did in "Future Tense," the lives of their clones may end up going in directions that result in similar ends to what we see in "Future Tense."

The use of Alex's name in "Future Tense" can pretty easily be explained away as Owen knowing that Fox was pregnant and that the couple was considering "Alexander Fox Xanatos" for a boy. So Puck had a 50/50 chance of getting it right and picked a name he was fairly certain Goliath would hear again in his real life just to screw with him.

The clock tower's destruction I would chalk up to coincidence, especially since I don't believe that we know for certain that Puck was aware that the building was the clan's new home.

Delilah and Malibu could be an example of Puck's insight into the clan. It's probably pretty obvious to most people who know him that Brooklyn is more than a little girl-crazy, so Puck may have figured that he might be able to reconcile and more with Demona if she were - as far as he knew - the last female gargoyle on Earth. I'd like to think that if Puck did ever think about a backstory for the world he created, he would have had Brooklyn and Demona get together only after Brooklyn was far more worried about leading his clan in extremely troubled times than chasing tail. I think the real Brooklyn's biggest problem is that he's too obsessed with finding a mate to actually form a real relationship, which could be the reason why his clone is luckier in love than he is.

While it's not as easy as the possible rationale for the Brooklyn/Demona pairing (aside from shock value), it is possible that Puck saw something in Lex to make him think that he could be the one to snap if pushed far enough. Maybe he noticed Lex's strong reaction to being betrayed by the Pack and thought that if Lex was ever abandoned and to his mind "betrayed" by Goliath, that combined with all the other horrors of the "Future Tense" world, could cause him to turn on his own clan. Much like Malibu and Delilah, it's not a direct parallel, which I like. Brentwood's turn is motivated not by the loss of a good leader, but the influence of a bad one. Nonethless, I can see him eventually usurping Thailog much as FT Lex took over Xanatos's position after he died. But my prediction is that Brentwood will be the one to kill Thailog. It's be a great way of both taking Thailog out of the picture and allowing Brentwood to come into his own as the villain to beat.

Lex's Halloween costume is just a cute, if unrealistic, joke for the fans. Seriously, how likely is it that Lex would pick an outfit that looks exactly like his Future Tense cyborg self except for the color? Unless Puck really can see the future, in which case it makes sense.

Maybe we will see more "Future Tense" events played out with the clones. Maybe Burbank will die fighting a future Coyote robot. Maybe Hollywood will go blind, literally or figuratively. I don't know. But I do think that with time, we'll get to see all of the clones as interesting individuals in their own right, not just less articulate copies of the Manhattan Clan or their "Future Tense" selves.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Just came across this on the Internet. It's a short pilot for the never-made animated series of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer".


Todd Jensen

Ed> I agree...Broadway going blind would be much more poingent (and interesting from a story POV) than Hollywood losing his sight
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
"A great many of those who 'debunk' traditional...values have in the background values of their own which they believe to be immune from the debunking process."--C.S. Lewis

Todd: Glad to hear that. (#3 came out on my birthday too though it didn't reach here for a week).

Bob: I think the extra-sized first one was just to start with a bang, and perhaps so that Greg could fit his adaptation of "The Journey" into two parts instead of three, meaning we'd get to the all-new stuff faster.

I think "Future Tense" might not be too good a predictor of what happens to the clones. But if it is, it would be interesting. I can certainly see Brentwood as a cyber-Lex style uber-villain, and I guess Brentwood/Delilah are close to clones of Brooklyn/Demona. Hollywood being blind would be interesting but Broadway being blind in some respects has more poignancy if you consider "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time": Hudson was inspired to read by a blind man and it would be sad but touching if having learnt to read, Broadway had to learn afresh because he'd lost his sight.

"Man created God in his image : intolerant, sexist, homophobic and violent."

Sorry for the double post, but I jsut noticed something odd in my signiture and wanted to repair it right away, lest I forget.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. There are traps everywhere--'Bibles laid open, millions of surprises,' as Herbert says, 'fine nets and stratagems.' God is, if I may say it, very unscrupulous."--C.S. Lewis

Meg> We do?

Todd> Happy birthday early.

On to the main discussion, in my humble opinion...I don't think that Sevarius (as much of a genius as he is) can really offset the aging problem with the clones. Malibu, Hollywood, Brentwood, and Thailog should live normal gargoyle lifespans, due to the artificial maturation process aging them to the aproximate age of their "parents". (assuming of course that the process didn't screw the telomeres up) Burbank and Delilah are still kinda iffy. Burbank because his "Father" Hudson is so old, and Delilah, because of her blended DNA. I mean, did Thailog really consider the full consequences of that? I kinda doubt it. And Anton wouldn't care as long as he got paid.

Remember, Dolly the sheep's clone died of Old age even though she was younger than the original. I think poor Burbank is on borrowed time, but I also think that he's got some stories left in him before he passes.

Also, here's an interesting idea/question that I'd like to pose...do you think that the regenerative properties in stone sleep might offset any flaws in Sevarius's cloning process, making only his gargoyle clones the only truly viable ones. I mean, besides gargoyles and Tasmanian Tigers, what else has Sevarius cloned? And we only saw Benjamin and Natasha (The Thylacine Clones) during one scene in Sydney. Do we really know what happened to them after that?

Matt> Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. There are traps everywhere--'Bibles laid open, millions of surprises,' as Herbert says, 'fine nets and stratagems.' God is, if I may say it, very unscrupulous."--C.S. Lewis

Yes! Bad Guys #4 comes out on my birthday!
Todd Jensen

Just in case anyone is interested, the bits that "fall off" the ends of chromosomes during cell replication are called telomeres. (Thank you, secondary school biology.)

Sorry for the double--but Burbank, Malibu, Brentwood, and Hollywood are all the same aged. They were aged artificially by Sevarius to be at their physical peak, which I would guess would be somewhere between the Trio and Goliath. So assuming cell decay isn't an issue, Burbank should live much longer than Hudson (barring, of course, him dying in the line of duty).

Also, don't forget that we seem to have an inter-clan romance brewing in the comics currently.... ;)


Good news, Bad Guys 4 appears on midtown's newsletter for next week's releases. Woot!

Just came in to say that 'Greg Weisguy' is a fantastic nickname.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]

I can, plausibly, see Burbank dying relatively early if the chromosome decay does play a part. However, Sevarius may have addressed that in the cloning process because it's just a series of junk proteins at the end that tends to get cut off, and it repeats if I remember correctly. I also think that Burbank's physical age (which I think is actually younger than Hudson's) should be considered. As for Hollywood's blindness, I was under the impression Broadway's blindness was a result of serious injury or trauma that is implied to have occurred in the past. In that case, it wouldn't be genetic and unlikely for Hollywood to undergo.

bob> You're definitely right about the Manhattan clan not knowing the clones very well. The clones' very existence is disturbing to them, and they seem to go out of their way to have minimal contact.

Since we don't know what time period might encompass the echoes from Future Tense, Burbank could very well die. By then, we might have lots of stories about the clones. And his death doesn't have to be violent; it could be the fact that his DNA is just old. Chromosomes lose bits of themselves with each successive copy (i.e. cell division), and when too much is lost, the new cells can't survive. Thus, death from old age. Since Burbank's DNA has already suffered all the losses that a gargoyle of Hudson's age has been subject to, he may not have a very long natural lifespan.

Unless, of course, Sevarius has found a way to counteract this... and in that could be the seeds of immortality. If one could keep one's cells actively dividing indefinitely without loss, well. Then one could stay alive, and perhaps the same biological age, for as long as there's enough resources (food, water, etc).

Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth-dragon at hotmail dot com]

why does the firts comic have 30 pages when all the rest have 24, i'v always just wondered this?
And since no one is really talking in here i will try to bring up a new topic. do you all think that Hollywood will go bind in the future the way Brodway does in future tense and that Burbank may die sometime soon? I say yes to Hollywood going blind but for Burbank to die i think we would have to get to know him more first. Then when he does die it will be more of a big deal. Right now it kinda feels like the clan doesn't really even now the clones very well. It would be cool to see the wind ceremony though.

"no, are ya mad these are your childern...no one threatens my eggs"- Princess Katherine- Avalon part 3

THIS IS IT! The extension for reserving a room at the discount rate for CopperCon expires today. August 28-31, 2008 Phoenix, Arizona. Who knows when you'll get a chance a chance to see Greg and David together like this again + total membership is definitely going to be less than 300 so you won't be just one face amongst hundreds or thousands.

CASFS - [cucon_publicity at yahoo dot com]

My favorite Dunmore is Dunmore, PA.
The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Anthony Tini

PATRICK - You just reminded me of a scene in a "TGS: Pendragon" story that Ed Reynolds wrote. In it, Arthur had taken on a modern-day girl as his squire, and when she first meets Macbeth and learns who she is, she's uneasy because everything that she knows about Macbeth comes from the Shakespeare play and its distorted take on him. Arthur assures her that Macbeth isn't like the murderous tyrant of the play, saying, "He's an honorable man" - to which she retorts "So was Brutus!"

My History Channel "On This Day" desk calendar also gave Canmore's victory over Macbeth for its entry for today, though it gave his name as "Dunmore" rather than "Canmore". Apparently they could have done with a bit more proofreading.

Todd Jensen

Like Ceasar, Macbeth was a king who should have been wary of the 15th of the month. Et tu, Demona?
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Incidentally, today and tomorrow are both "City of Stone" anniversaries; Macbeth overthrew Duncan on August 14, 1040, and was defeated by Canmore on August 15, 1057.
Todd Jensen

I think breeding between Clans would be more likly with clans that were spilt due to too large of a population and that wouldnt really be two completely seperate clans (like say the Green Clan and the Ishimura Clan). Splinter clans would probably keep in touch with the main clan. In general, I think that most clans lived too far apart to really mix together for breeding or any other purposes. Now some may have been close enough to have distant dealings with each other (Loch Ness and Wyvern) but, on the whole, that feels like it would be a rare occurance. Like another member said, clans would want distance between each other so as to not compete for resources.

Speaking of mixing Clans, I was thinking about this when watching the Olympics last night. We know that by 2198, the Gargoyle Nation has been founded and the Protection Act has claimed gargoyles to be protect citizens (or something to that effect). Do you think the gargoyles would be allowed to enter into the Olympics? Now, maybe not in competition with humans (that would be totally unfair on so many levels ^_^), but maybe the Clans would be allowed to have a little friendly competition against each other. What do you think? I think that would be a blast to see!

<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Todd> Yeah, that one.

ASATIRA - Did you mean the part where Sir Balin beheads her, and then announces that she was an evil sorceress who brought about his mother's death? (Yes, that part certainly doesn't get brought up often in the pop culture treatments of her.)
Todd Jensen

Future Labyrinth Clan> I didn't know about the possibility that the Labyrinth Clan might be using cloning to keep their population up. But when I was considering how Delilah could possibly end up with more human ancestry than Elisa's largely cosmetic contributions to Delilah''s DNA, it occurred to me that Sevarius and Thailog (who didn't obtain the Manhattan Clan's DNA again for no reason) might attempt to create a hybrid with more human attributes, specifically the ability to remain flesh during the day. As for how 2198 Delilah learns about her heritage, the idea that the Labyrinth Clan may take more interest in biology if they are cloning has merit, but it's also possible that 2198 Delilah just read up on the original Delilah and her unusual genetic background, noticed that the similarity between them went beyond the name, and started wondering if she might be part human as well. What I can't quite figure out is why anyone in the clan would tell her that she's anything other than a gargoyle and why she herself would let anyone else know that she's part human.

Matt> While I agree with your theory that the finned member of the Avalon Clan has Loch Ness Clan ancestry, I don't necessarily agree that the former member of the Loch Ness Clan is one of his biological parents. It could easily be a grandparent, which would help to explain why he doesn't look that much like the descriptions we've seen of the Loch Ness gargoyles. And I agree about Coco too. Her Scottish ancestor probably goes pretty far back, since there haven't been clans other than Loch Ness in Scotland for centuries and the only feature she has that differentiates her from what we've sen of the the other London gargoyles is her wings.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Algernon> Yeah, in 2198 there are rumors that cloning continues in the Labyrinth and perhaps other genetic experimentation. So, who knows.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

Aren't there rumors that the Labyrinth Clan still practice cloning in 2198. If so it would give them good reason to keep tabs on their genomes. So Delilah knowing about her human ancestry wouldn't be much of a stretch.
"Back when I first started at the very beginning, I was always trying to be old and grumpy and important. Like you do when you're young." -the Tenth Doctor

Matt> You have a good point. I was focusing mostly on past remarks about gargoyles being territorial, but territorial does not mean hostile to outsiders. And one thing I probably wasn't clear on, or plain forgot, is that yeah, populations can have a lot exchanges of individuals if they're near enough to allow it. When I typed up the earlier comment, I was thinking more of the later more disperse populations of gargoyles, not in earlier times when they were more prolific.

Side note: I'm slowly making my way through Mallory's "Le'Morte", and just got into Book 2. Man, his version of the Lady of the Lake is interesting. This is one of the many things I'm having fun learning about that differs from more general references and summaries.


Interclan Mating> I think there was more contact between clans then you guys seem to. Yes, i think there was generally pretty big distance between clans even when gargoyles were at their peak, but I think they would still know their neighbors, however distant. First off, I know Greg has mentioned that in Dark Ages there would be contact possibly with the Loch Ness Clan and maybe others (like the Scone Clan etc.) Secondly, keep in mind that it is likely that some neighbors might've come from the same clan originally and split and thus they would (at least initially) know each other well. Also, gargoyles being the territorial species they are will often make patrols of said territory. I'll bet that in the past, just as in modern day NYC, those patrols at times were long distance and caused the patrollers to spend the day away from the rookery. Surely patrollers at the bounds of their territories encountered each other. Lastly, and perhaps most debatable, I think we've seen a couple instances of interclan breeding in the series already. Constance's wings seem positively Scottish in origin, and Greg chose those wings on purpose. Not all of Coco's forebears were English. Also there is the very fishy aquatic guy that is a member of the Avalon Clan. I suspect that he had parents from two clans, the Wyvern Clan and the Loch Ness Clan.

Delilah (2198)> Greg has only said that ONE of her ancestors was Elisa, we don't know for a fact that she didn't have other human ancestors. We do know that the current clones and mutates will not be the last ones created. Who knows, perhaps there will be other hybrids. It may be that many of the gargoyles of the Labyrinth Clan have human blood in them.
Of course, I tend to think, like you, that hybrids will be rarer. But it isn't about it being visually obvious that she is part human, the point is that she knows she is and it bothers her.

Which leads me to ask, how does she know that she is part human? Does the Labyrinth Clan raise its young communally without knowledge of ancestry or do children know their biological parents and thus their background? I suppose if any clan was apt to lose this part of gargoyle tradition, it would be the Labyrinth Clan...

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

Interclan Mating> Thinking about it some more, I'm guessing that it probably happened more back when there were larger numbers of clans and either better relations between humans and gargoyles or no weapons that could shatter a sleeping gargoyle. One of the big issues that may have prevented a lot of interclan mating is how dangerous it would have been for gargoyles to travel too far from their homes. Taking the entire clan to visit another clan would mean leaving their home and rookery vulnerable, and large numbers could potentially be a disadvantage if the journey took more than one night, as it's very hard to conceal an entire gargoyle clan sleeping in stone. While an individual gargoyle who hadn't found a mate in his or her own clan may well be very motivated to look for potential mates in other clans, there would still be risks to weigh. The journey could still be dangerous for a lone gargoyle. If he or she didn't find a safe place to roost during the day, the gargoyle could easily be smashed. And if the two clans didn't have a reasonably quick way of communicating back and forth, the gargoyle could arrive to find the clan in question has no single gargoyles of mating age, has moved elsewhere, or has been killed off. It'd be interesting to know how much contact gargoyle clans in 10th century Scotland (for example) has with each other and how they accomplished things like relaying information or visiting each other.

Delilah of 2198> I was going over the pitch for "Gargoyles 2198" again and something has occurred to me. Delilah is probably either the granddaughter or great-granddaughter of the original Delilah. Now if the original Delilah was half human (which she isn't), that would make Delilah 2198 what, 1/8 to 1/16 human? That's not a lot. And Greg has since said that the aspects of Elisa's DNA that Sevarius worked into Delilah were largely cosmetic. So I'm wondering how it would even become an issue for 2198 Delilah that she's part human. With two or three generations between her and Delilah's human DNA, I can't see her looking that much more human han full-blooded gargoyles like Demona or Angela do. Even if she ended up looking very much like her ancestor the original Delilah, I'm not sure anyone would recognize her as being part human. Maybe it's more obvious to a gargoyle, but again, original Delilah doesn't look any more human than many other gargoyles to my eyes.

Any thoughts?

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Interclan mating> There's distance to keep in mind as well as territory aspects. In my mind, it's not just how much distance needs to be covered in so many nights of flight but how many resources and the amount that may determine it. If clans happen to be in relatively rich environments and there isn't much territorial disputes, you could easily have more clans within a reasonable distance of each other than an area that is poorer and may cause more dispute. If there is more dispute, then there may be more reluctance to accept another gargoyle from outside the clan.

Add to this the concept that populations change in size. Anything could cause a decline in a clan's population, and they may move and become integrated into a different clan or a different clan could absorb the original clan's territory and, hopefully, absorb some of the original inhabitants. So there's a lot for and against clans intermingling.


Matt> I'm guessing that mating with a gargoyles from another clan was only slightly more common than intergenerational mating. Keep in mind that, even when the species was at its peak, it wasn't like you couldn't walk a mile without tripping over ten gargoyle clans. We know that clans tended to split when the population became too large for the clan's territory/protectorate to support, generally when the clan's numbers started to exceed 200 or so. I'm guessing even these splinter clans would want to put a decent amount of distance between themselves and their former clan to ensure that they aren't competing for resources. So the nearest clan could be a night's flight away or longer. And you might not have a lot of opportunity or reason to meet gargoyles from another clan. Plus, choosing a mate from another clan means that one of you is going to have to leave the clan you grew up in and all of your rookery parents and siblings and friends. I'm not saying that this never happened, but it probably wasn't all that common.

Another way that clans might have received members from other clans is if a smaller, weaker clan was absorbed into a larger, stronger one. Somewhat akin to how Demona's clan was formed, but less a group of refugees from various extinct clans and more one clan whose numbers have declined sharply seeking refuge with a clan that is thriving.

As time goes on and gargoyles become more integrated into modern society, I imagine that members of the modern clans will have more opportunity to travel and meet with and potentially mate with members of other clans. We know from the summary for "Gargoyles 2198" that it will someday be pretty much standard practice for young gargoyles from around the world to be sent to Ishimura for training, increasing the likelihood that some of the will find mates from other clans.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Grey Wolf makes a good point. I think that problems arising from interbreeding were rare, esspecially in larger clans.

As for the rarity of inter-generational coupling, I believe Greg once said that it wasn't exactly common, but not unheard of either.

What I wonder is how common couplings between different clans were way back when clans were all over the place. Did gargoyles almost always mate with gargoyles from their clan even when there were several other nearby clans? Or was there a time when gargoyles would seek out mates from other clans regularly?

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

Actually, even in humans, cousin relations cause less deformaties than the media hype tells us. With the amount of genetic variations we've seen in gargates, I don't think that the odd occurance when first cousins would mate would cause any huge problems anyway.
Grey Wolf

Matt> In general, there is probably very little risk of gargoyle mating with their siblings. But we don't know if gargoyles choosing mates from generations other than their own was always a rare occurrence. I would guess that gargoyles always tended to mate with gargoyles of their own age, but in a small clan with a particularly high mortality rate, their options may have been more limited and inter-generational couples may have been more common. Also, the pheramone factor may help gargoyles avoid mating with their biological first cousins, which is much more of a risk since siblings from two generations could each have an egg in one generation.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Hi eveyone! I logged into Gargoyles Wiki now! I'd really like to help with it! Can somone give me permission? My user is IdrilFay.
Also D. Taina, thanks alot for offering to get that clip for me! I just need a picture, not a movie. Thanks.

"I have a sunny disposition and I'm always kind to animals!"

Charisma> Keep in mind that the odds are very much stacked against incestual relationships among gargoyles. As you said, gargoyles tend to find mates from the peers in their own generation, so the closest relationship there is first cousins. Occasionally, a gargoyle may mate outside his/her generation, but in that case the pheromone factor Greg has mentioned comes into play as has already been described. But even without pheromones, in a full clan it is statistically unlikely that a brother and sister or two cousins (one male and one female) would end up together anyway. Even assigning mates randomly (random male to random female) rarely results in cousins getting together and that isn't even factoring in the pheromone aversion. So when a gargoyle finds a mate in an entirely seperate generation the odds are against incest. A gargoyle looking to another generation for a mate would have to have a sibling in that generation, that sibling would have to be the opposite sex, and then they'd have to beat the numbers. Frankly, I'm not even convinced that gargoyles NEED the pheromone aversion to avoid incestual couplings.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

Charisma> Greg has mentioned before that gargoyles avoid choosing gargoyles they are closely related to as mates through sense of smell. I don't recall how much he has elaborated, but I imagine gargoyles find the pheramones (sp?) of their biological relatives to be mildly unattractive. I kind of doubt that gargoyles are aware of this phenomenon on a conscious level; they just know that they aren't attracted to certain other gargoyles and they're probably too busy being attracted to the gargoyle they will eventually mate with to wonder why.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Okay, I have a question that I asked Greg a few months back, but he responded that he'd answered it before, yet I can't find the answer in the archives. So here it is.

It is more common for gargoyles to find a mate in their own generation, but sometimes that isn't the case (like in Yama & Sora's situation). And gargoyles can have biological siblings that are a generation older or younger than them. What I'm wondering is this: Do gargoyles attempt to not mate with gargoyles that might look somewhat like them so that they don't end up with their biological sibling? I wonder, not because they see each other as biologically related and it would be weird (since they don't think like that), but because if they happened to interbreed too much, their offspring might become deformed and that would be bad for the clan.

I hope that quesiton made sense, 'cause some parts were had to word. I appreciate those who take a stab at it to ease my wondering mind and appologize if this question has already been brought up before.

"It is better to have a horrible ending than to have horrors without end."

I knew :) I asked him about it at the Mug-A-Guest during the Gathering. He said that he was having tons of fun as Dr. Facilier. He's so good at playing bad guys...
Matt> Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. There are traps everywhere--'Bibles laid open, millions of surprises,' as Herbert says, 'fine nets and stratagems.' God is, if I may say it, very unscrupulous."--C.S. Lewis

This is probably old news for everyone, but I just found out...

Keith David is going to be in Disney's next 2D animated picture, The Princess and the Frog. He is playing a villain, Dr. Facilier.
It will be nice to hear his voice again, perhaps reminiscent of Thailog.


Kris - I've had luck with Midtown Comics and they still have some in stock: http://www.midtowncomics.com
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]

Knowing Bad Guys #4 is out next week, and my copy of #3 not arriving at my comic shop back in May despite pre-ordering it, I didn't wanna be out of the loop next week. So I tried ordering from Slave Labor Graphics' online store, but it isn't working properly (and sucks pretty bad to begin with--it isn't alphabetized very well, for starters).

Anyone know of a good online store to buy single issues from ? Bad Guys doesn't show up on Amazon.com/Amazon.ca, only the main series does (plus the trade). If it's an online store that caters to Canada/sells in Canadian dollars, all the better, but I'll buy from the U.S. too.

Kris - [plekopleko at hotmail dot com]

Not at all surprised "Bad Guys #4" has been pushed back. But hey, what's one more week. I'm glad we still have stuff to look forward to.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."

After the way that the releases have been going this year, I'm not surprised; I'd be even more surprised if it *wasn't* bumped back a week. But it means that I'll be able (I hope) to buy a copy on my birthday.

I mentioned earlier a suspicion that Sevarius and Fang's big scheme to mutate a lot of New Yorkers (mentioned in the "Next Issue" description: "How many mutates does it take to screw in a light bulb? Well, if you're Dr. Sevarius and Fang, the answer is: 'Never enough!'", followed by "our mad scientist's nefarious plan for the city of Manhattan") would involve the count-down in Times Square (since we learned in #3 that the events are taking place on New Year's Eve). I'm looking forward to finding out if I'm right or not. I was wary of the idea at first, since it's been done a lot of times in action cartoons (I recall an episode of "The New Batman/Superman Adventures" where the Joker had rigged the ball for Gotham City's own Times Square-style countdown with poison gas - it ended with Batman and Commissioner Gordon having their regular year's end meeting at a small restaurant), but then I remembered how much Sevarius revels in cliches, and felt less disturbed by it after that.

And, yep, there's no way that Owen would allow Bronx to crash the party.

Todd Jensen

Darn! One more week it is then. Hmmm...that's the day my sister goes off to college for the first time. I'm so proud.

Todd> Kinda Doubt that Owen would have allowed Bronx into the atrium...it'd be too easy for him to ruin X's plan to have NY's high society "Make friends" with the gargs.

Matt> Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. There are traps everywhere--'Bibles laid open, millions of surprises,' as Herbert says, 'fine nets and stratagems.' God is, if I may say it, very unscrupulous."--C.S. Lewis

Looks like Bad Guys #4 isn't going to be out this week. It's been bumped back to the following Wednesday.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Matt> I guess we'll find out this afternoon when Diamond releases it's shipping list.
Matt> Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, You will find the same man going back on this a moment later."--C.S. Lewis

Litwolf> I tried Ed (Cowboy Bebop) before, but I have trouble finding characters. I either wouldn't want to walk around in the outfit all day long, or don't have the skill to recreate it.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth-dragon at hotmail dot com]

What a fun weekend! Ive returned home from Otakon, the super awesome anime convention in Maryland! And it was my frist tome cosplaying No-Face from Spirited Away and a whole bunch of people asked for my picture. Does anyone else cosplay (which, if you dont know, means dressing up as a favorite character)? Ive done No-Face, San from Princess Mononoke, and Kaylee from Firefly. Cosplaying is so much fun!
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Todd> LOL

Well, it would've been interesting. ;P

Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth-dragon at hotmail dot com]

Oh, and Todd, your scenario sounds just like a scene out of the Ghostbusters movie...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

A more serious question: What exactly is the status for Bad Guys #4? I've heard it IS being released Wednesday and I've heard it isn't. Whats up?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

Silly question for the week:

What if Hudson had left Bronx at the castle when he went to see Jeffrey Robbins, and Bronx had wandered into the masquerade party and made a beeline for the buffet table?

(This question probably makes it clear exactly *why* Hudson took Bronx with him to Robbins' house.)

Todd Jensen

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"But my dreams are for dreaming, and best left that way. And my zero to your power of ten equals nothing at all." -Ian Anderson

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

8th in the name of bg #4 being released this month
Whatever happened to simplicity?

Geez, this really IS a slow week.


KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.


Fifth in the name of coming home!

(man, really slow night . . .)

"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, You will find the same man going back on this a moment later."--C.S. Lewis

VickyUK - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]


Slow night...

The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>O.o)> The Olympics... Fun...

First? Really?
"Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz."