Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Re: "Merlin"> It played fast and loose with the source material, and there were more anachronisms than I could count (particularly in the costumes). Neither of these are totally unexpected, and wouldn't be so bad except that everything Ed said about uninteresting characterisation and plot are bang on the money.

Re: Mutates > I suppose Talon and Maggie's kids would technically be called mutants rather than mutates? That is, of course, if they resemble their parents as they are now and don't just look like regular humans. I kinda think that, no matter how much we like exploring the science of Gargoyles, plot is rather more important. What the kids look like will depend less on whether Sevarius' formula affected Maggie's eggs, and more on what Greg thinks will be more interesting from a story perspective. It could go either way.
Supermorff
posted @ Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:53:11 am EDT from 86.168.25.37

i wonder wat maggie and talons childern would look like
Becky - [beckybug1991 at aol dot com]
Becky :)
posted @ Sat, Sep 20, 2008 9:43:33 pm EDT from 71.7.116.47

This is my first post long time lurker
Matt- in response to if Maggie and Talon's child would we a mutate. When a human female is born she already has all eggs(gametes) produced. So in Maggie's case the question becomes did sevarius mutate her gametes as well. With talon I don't think there would be much of an issue seeing as men constantly create more sperm and that would likely carry the mutations. So I think will have to wait and see what Greg does.
Woods
"But them pussycats is quick" Mrs. Lovett
posted @ Sat, Sep 20, 2008 8:45:56 pm EDT from 192.101.250.250

I hope that by the end of "Clan-Building" (though I'd understand if there wasn't room for it), we'd get to have a glimpse of Elisa telling Peter and Diane Maza that they're going to be grandparents.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Sep 20, 2008 7:04:36 pm EDT from 4.244.209.19

Greg: Well said.

"Merlin": I didn't rate it, but I didn't expect to. Bland characters, plodding script, stunt casting to mixed effect and some of the usual fantasy claptrap. The sets and costumes are okay but it's just dead-behind-the-eyes. I thought it would be the sort of thing that I'd love if I was 7 but now I suspect I'd just have wandered off. I get the logic of departing from the source material, but what they've come up with instead is so dull. Magic users are driven underground by a king who is persecuting in the name of securing his kingdom, inviting more magical terrorism. Because the world needs another post-11 September allegory. There's also a healthy dash of 'Billy Elliot' and the dragon off 'Excalibur'.
Ed
posted @ Sat, Sep 20, 2008 6:04:45 pm EDT from 213.187.38.226

I just watched the new BBC show Merlin and I thought it was pretty good.
VickyUK - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Sat, Sep 20, 2008 3:28:40 pm EDT from 64.12.117.134

Okay, this is a general post and not directed at anyone in particular. I know quite a few people who are in the comics industry professionally. It's a very, very tough field, and I just want to explain why just having a fan artist do it is unfeasible.

It takes professionals, who do nothing but work on comics, a solid month to produce twenty-four pages, and even then, they often fall behind for one reason or another. Some books take two or three months to produce. And that's just drawing.

A single page can take anywhere from three to twenty hours to draw, depending on how practicied and skilled the artist is. To ink a page takes another four to eight hours, depending on the quality, and that's mostly just tracing.

Coloring, just to do the basic component flat tone, takes about an hour, and then depending on how much material (characters, backgrounds, etc.) can take anywhere between three and thirty hours.

Lettering is generally pretty quick, that's about half an hour a page.

These numbers are of course, for practiced professionals, who do very little but draw and produce on a regular daily bases, and often work twenty hour days to meet deadlines.

With an unpracticed individual, that time on any step of the process can easily double or triple, plus the quality is not likely to be as high. Any given comic, even a black and white one, takes several hundred man-hours to produce between a team if its to be of any sort of quality. Faster quicker pages can be produced, but they tend to show it. It's possible to do a page an hour, but that doesn't mean you should.

Artists have to eat too. Sheer love for a property is not enough. "Pro bono" is fine for a commission sketch that you spend an hour on. It is NOT fine for two to three solid weeks of work. Add to all of this the fact that a proper trade would be one hundred forty to one hundred eighty pages long, even a dedicated team from Marvel or DC would still take a solid six months to create a decent product.

That's thousands of hours. Now suggesting that one fan artist randomly do this for free, in their free time? What, a few hours on a weekend? That just doesn't work.

Now, I don't doubt that there are some fan artists who would leap in to do it if Greg asked, but would they know what they were getting into?

Just saying.

Wow... hope you got through all that. ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."
posted @ Sat, Sep 20, 2008 12:28:11 pm EDT from 75.56.245.4

thanks Landon. it sounds interesting
Becky - [beckybug1991 at aol dot com]
Becky :)
posted @ Sat, Sep 20, 2008 11:50:27 am EDT from 71.7.116.47

Talon and Maggie's kid(s) will not be mutates in the normal sense. A mutate is an organism that was MUTATEd. I disagree with HofEyes on this, but I think that their DNA was in fact altered to incorporate the new genes. Sevarius mentioned gene slicing to get desired traits. If that is the case then most or all of the cells in their bodies are no longer human. Effectively, they are a new hybrid species. BUT, there does exist a blood barrier between the gamete making organs (testes and ovaries) and the rest of the body, I believe, and it is possible that the sperm and eggs involved are still 100% human. This is especially true in Maggie's case as all the eggs in her body were made long before she was mutated. So, it could go either way. The child(ren) could be a bat-winged cat creature (with eel and human DNA) or they could be entirely human or maybe they would be half and half. With so little information on how the mutagenic formula works and what it did to their bodies it is hard to say. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'
posted @ Sat, Sep 20, 2008 11:13:37 am EDT from 70.230.176.201

Stormer: That depends on how deeply the mutation runs. At their cores, they're still human, even if their appearance has been altered. Meaning that they probably don't possess the gametes of a cat and a panther. So I think the popular theory is that their offspring would be human.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Do you wanna know why I use a knife? Guns are too quick. You can't savor all the... little... emotions. In... you see, in their last moments, people show you who they really are. So in a way, I know your friends better than you ever did. Would you like to know which of them were cowards?" -The Joker
posted @ Sat, Sep 20, 2008 9:58:53 am EDT from 24.125.223.13

Battle Beast> In the interests of clarifying (as opposed to continuing an argument), it doesn't always work to ask someone who is a very talented illustrator to do a comic. There's certainly overlap in the skill set and there are people who've transitioned from illustration to comics, but it isn't a guaranteed thing. Like I said, it's similar to the difference between taking a still picture and shooting a movie. With a comic, you have to consider not only composition and clarity and keeping the characters on model; you have to worry about how panels relate to one another, how they direct the reader around the page, and how they work together to communicate the story.

Do I think that there might be a fan artist out there who is capable of doing comics and would do the graphic novel pro bono? Maybe. But all the reasons I mentioned before why this wouldn't and shouldn't happen still stand. "Gargoyles" needs to e a property that's capable of making money for the people who work on it, not a charity case. Believe me, I wish that creative people could just do the work they want to do without being concerned about money and success and everything, but that's not how the world works. A professional artist is going to want to get paid so as not to risk setting up the precedent that he or she or all artists on "Gargoyles" or comics artists in general will and should work for free. A more casual fan artist may be willing to work for free, but then we're at the mercy of that person's drive and ability to commit time to a project which doesn't pay.

News from GargWiki> Greg has slightly altered the title of what would have been issue #11 of the main book from "Tyrant" to "Tyrants." Feel free to begin discussing the potential implications of this.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Sat, Sep 20, 2008 9:16:47 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

Maybe someone who is a fan fiction artist who would take the challenge of drawing the comic TPB for free... not nessecarily a "comic artist..." per se. Thats all I was saying there. But I've dropped the issue... so to speak.
Battle beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Sat, Sep 20, 2008 12:41:27 am EDT from 75.153.224.39

In the comic, "The Rock" that Maggie's pregnant. Will her child be a mutate like her, and Talon? Or will it be a human?
stormer23 - [www dot dhlcats at comcast dot net]
posted @ Fri, Sep 19, 2008 10:12:53 pm EDT from 67.161.70.239

Plenty of artists on creator-owned books won't see a dime up front, and many won't see a dime at the end either because sales on these books are generally so low. But it's a very different proposition working for your own property compared to working for Disney's.

In any event, I'd be utterly astonished if there's a fan who can produce, whatever, 96 pages say, of professional quality in their spare time. (And if they can, they shouldn't for the reasons already given).

As for Greg, I dare say he has quite clear ideas about what he would do next so I wouldn't worry too much about hitting the ground running. If a book was commissioned tomorrow and the artist was lined up, there would be characters to design first up, and potentially Greg could supply script pages as the artist goes. If he's doing 2 pages a day, he'll easily keep ahead of the game.

We also need to be realistic about the volume of stories we're going to get. Even if the artist is an independently wealthy rabid fan with the talent and speed of John Romita Jr, I doubt SLG will tie up many more resources in 'Gargoyles' without the trade paperback format really taking off -- just the up-front cash they'd need to front for a TPB would be substantially larger than a single comic.

If they go the TPB route, I'll be pleased. If they can get into a rhythm of one or even two releases a year, I'll be beside myself. New material is new material, let's not sweat a few months either way.
Ed
"It's more amazing to me that a man [Jesus] walked around and said that stuff. There's nothing more amazing than human kindness. You don't have to say later, 'Oh, probably half-God.'" -- Ricky Gervais
posted @ Fri, Sep 19, 2008 6:13:47 pm EDT from 213.187.38.226

A big reason why no professional artist would give their services for free, no matter how much of a fan they are, is it would set a precedent of being someone who'll work without pay, thus making it that much harder to get paying work in the future.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Fri, Sep 19, 2008 5:27:14 pm EDT from 76.227.130.251

I know where you guys are comming from.

So, if in a year's time SLG sines a contract to put on TPB's, we'd still have to wait several months for the book to be finnished. If it was done and waiting, we (as fans) wouldn't have to wait as long.

That's all I was saying.

Free> You're going to tell me that NOT ONE FAN would volunteer their drawing services for the fandom? \Weather or not they'd Possibly get paid later?

I never said anything about GREG not being paid, either.

Anyway, it was just an Idea so I'll drop it. I understand where you are comming from, too.
Battle beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Fri, Sep 19, 2008 11:41:54 am EDT from 75.153.224.39

Battle Beast> Add my voice to the others saying that this probably will not and should not happen. Drawing a comic is not an easy thing and it takes a lot of time and effort. If we're looking at roughly one year of lead time to do the equivalent of six single issues of new material, that's the same pace as an issue every two months. So it's not really like having more time to get it done. As for artists doing the work for no pay simply because they're fans of the product: if that worked, every comic industry-wide would be drawn for free.

Greg has to support his family. Artists have to support themselves and their families. Casual fan artists who do it as a hobby generally aren't going to have the time to work on the comic full time because they have other things to deal with like school and work. (Not to mention, how many of them can actually draw a comic? It is a particular skill set. Saying someone who's a good illustrator can do a good job drawing a comic is like saying a good still photographer is capable of filming a moive.) I doubt anyone is more committed to "Gargoyles" than Greg and even he has said that he isn't going to do actual work on it for free.

I understand that your intentions are good, but this is really only slightly more likely than the entire cast and crew of the TV show coming back and making a new season for no pay in hopes that it will get picked up and they'll make money on it. Creativity takes work and people deserve to be reimbursed for that work just as much as anyone else.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Fri, Sep 19, 2008 7:52:12 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

"I am sure that there is SOMEONE in the fandom who would draw/ink/color the TPB#3 PRO BONO."

Tell me this person's name, and I'll be sure to add them to my list of Suspected Replicants. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does?" -Gaff ("Blade Runner")
posted @ Fri, Sep 19, 2008 7:09:57 am EDT from 24.125.223.13

"I am sure that there is SOMEONE in the fandom who would draw/ink/color the TPB#3 PRO BONO."

Artists have bills to pay, too. Why would you assume someone would spend untold hours drawing, inking, coloring, and lettering six comic books worth of material for free instead of devoting their talent and energy to a paying job? In fact, not only would someone be working pro bono, they'd be LOSING money because art supplies are not free.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Fri, Sep 19, 2008 7:05:39 am EDT from 76.227.130.251

I know its just an idea, but seriously it's not one that should really be entertained.

Greg has a family he has to provide for: wife, kids, and pets. It's only practical and sensible that his time be devoted to wherever his paycheck currently comes from.

Seriously, I give the man enough credit for keeping his Gargoyles passion to the extent he has:

Not only has he continued to develop storylines and add to his Master Timeline during the little free time he had in the ten years between his departure of Gargoyles and the comic's first issue. That, he continues to receive and answer questions here, attend every Gathering to date (as well as other conventions), help get Disney to release the DVDs (and participate in them for free) and in general keep our interest in the series alive.

Greg has said he'll continue to support future Gargoyles material in the future, but its only reasonable that he be expected to work on it as humanly possible as he can.
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Fri, Sep 19, 2008 2:59:52 am EDT from 157.242.213.81

Demonskrye> I am sure that there is SOMEONE in the fandom who would draw/ink/color the TPB#3 PRO BONO.

If Greg had it ALL DONE, ready to go to the printers as soon as the writ was dropped on a new contract, then we wouldn't have to wait as long, is all I'm saying.

Disney can't sue for having drawings in a house or on a computer. And if Greg keeps them locked up untill the new contract if and when is finalized, all I'm saying is that we, as fans, get new stories faster.

It's just an Idea.
Battle beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Fri, Sep 19, 2008 1:31:20 am EDT from 75.152.109.85

Becky: You may want to read this: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=795

It says that the unreleased Gargoyles issues will be coming out as a 'graphic novel' (or more accurately, a trade paperback). Also take a look at this: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=787

It says that next year Dan Vado of SLG (the Gargoyles comic publisher) will try to convince Disney next year to support a Gargoyles graphic novel for post #12 material.

So for the foreseeable future, all new Gargoyles stories will only exist in a graphic novel format.
Landon Thomas - [<- Toonzone forum reviews]
posted @ Thu, Sep 18, 2008 10:57:21 pm EDT from 216.250.163.157

i just thought of sumething what about a gargoules graphic novel or like manga? its somthing i just thought of
Becky - [beckybug1991 at aol dot com]
Becky :)
posted @ Thu, Sep 18, 2008 9:50:08 pm EDT from 71.7.116.47

Finally got BG#4...and literally read through in less than 5 minutes. I swear those pages go by so quickly. Now I'm left yearning for more. Can't wait for the TPB to be released...
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>^^)> Caramel Frappuccino with extra caramel...
posted @ Thu, Sep 18, 2008 7:46:16 pm EDT from 67.101.237.11

MATT - You just reminded me again of the question I keep on thinking over #9: who waits more impatiently for the trade paperback - the people who weren't at the Radio Play and want to find out what happened, or the people who were and can't talk about the events in it until the trade paperback is published?

Though I hope that the matter of "Brooklyn's suddenly 40 years older" would be reserved for #10 through #12; after reading #7 and #8, I'd say there would already be so much taking place in #9 (the resolution of the battle, the rest of Shari's story about the Stone of Destiny's history, the significance of Fox's shoes, the return of Coldstone and Coldfire, etc.) that I'm not sure there'd be room for a post-TimeDancer Brooklyn as well - unless in the very last panel.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Sep 18, 2008 6:51:40 pm EDT from 4.244.214.73

Battle Beast> I see what you're saying, but all Greg can do is write the script and that really doesn't seem like it's been the cause of the holdup in getting the comics out. There's no way that any new material is going to get produced if the people involved aren't getting paid for it. Even Greg's commitment to doing unpaid work on "Gargoyles"is pretty limited. I'm sure Greg will be thinking about the next graphic novel long before there's any deal in place and will be all set to start writing once the deal and the money are there. For the time being though, I imagine he'll be working on projects that get him paid.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Sep 18, 2008 1:30:20 pm EDT from 146.115.115.33

I think that Greg should have a FULL trade paperback waiting for release. Once the next one is finnished, the liscense is up, right? So, if he has one finished, at the ready to be released if/when the liscense is renewed for tpb's, then we wouldn't have to wait as long.
Battle beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Thu, Sep 18, 2008 12:55:50 pm EDT from 75.152.109.85

Curse you, issue #9!

I tended to think about the issue of Brooklyn as a conversation that happens sometime in the future. But you guys may be right that we'd see some initial awkwardness as Brooklyn readjusts to his role as second-in-command and Goliath realizes that Brooklyn s now far more experienced and capable that he was before. I don't know that it's going to result in any big blow-ups. Goliath isn't an unusually strict leader. He's been in command of gargoyles who were his age, gargoyles who were older than him, and probably gargoyles who he believed were better warriors than he was. I don't think it's going to be too hard for Goliath to allow Brook to act with a reasonable degree of autonomy. He already trusted Brooklyn enough to make him second-in-command with the very real possibility that Brooklyn might have to take his place sooner rather than later. So there's no reason he wouldn't mostly trust Brook's judgment now that he's older. And Brooklyn might even feel glad to be able to pass the buck to someone else, to not have to be ultimately responsible for the safety of his family anymore. What could happen that would definitely be interesting is that Brooklyn would come back having built up Goliath in his mind as this paragon of leadership over his 40 years away and realize that Goliath is as mortal and fallible as anyone. Some questions may come up and some arguments may be had, but I doubt either Goliath or Brooklyn is going to end up hugely resentful of the other for any substantial period of time.

My guess is that a couple of decades down he road, Brooklyn will approach Goliath about choosing a new second. Goliath might protest that Brooklyn is an excellent warrior who has already proven his leadership potential. But Brooklyn will argue that the second should be someone younger who can lead the clan into the future should the need arise, and that's not him anymore. I can't really see the idea to replace Brooklyn coming from Goliath; remember, his first impulse in naming a second was to pick Hudson. Goliath will eventually see Brooklyn's point and Brook will abdicate his position as Goliath announces his new second in command.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Sep 18, 2008 11:34:07 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

@Matt: I'd enjoy to see this movie being done, actually. Somebody over at imdb pointed out how incredible it would end up when Guillermo Del Torro would do it, and I have to agree.
Also, if the movie does well, there'll be a surge in the whole GargUniverse production. A movie doesn't hurt, really.

And DARN; this issue 9 issue... grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

I'm so f**************** PUMPED to read the Timedancer episodes...

Brooklyn is my favourite character, yet from all I've heard, I think that he might... "depart" after his timedancing, rather sooner than later... I'd hate it, but... I dunno...
brook
posted @ Thu, Sep 18, 2008 9:43:31 am EDT from 84.191.199.207

Matt> It's funny you mention it that way round, because a while ago I kinda had the idea that it would be the exact opposite: Goliath suddenly realises how long Brooklyn's been a leader of his own clan/family, but Brooklyn firmly identifies Goliath as the Manhattan Clan's leader.

That isn't to say that, when they disagree, they might both consider themselves in the right of it due to their own experiences. Now I'm interested to see which way it might go.
Supermorff
posted @ Thu, Sep 18, 2008 9:43:28 am EDT from 86.131.22.145

If I remember correctly, it'll only be Angela and Broadway who around for Brook's dissappearance and reappearance, not the whole Clan. At least, thats what I recall Greg saying long ago.

And I like the idea that down the road Brook's age over Goliath's will be an issue. I can see them getting into a dispute on a course of action. Goliath feels (justifiably) that he is the Clan's leader and Brooklyn's superior and Brooklyn feels he has basically been a leader longer than Goliath and his age and experiences entitle him to a larger part of the decision process for the Clan.

I have another thought, and I almost typed it, but I remembered that it relates to the story in #9 and therefore I can't say it. Oh well.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'
posted @ Thu, Sep 18, 2008 9:04:25 am EDT from 70.230.176.201

Just wanted to point out Greg's response to one of Litwolf's recent questions. Apparently, the exact duration of time that Brooklyn will disappear for from the point of view of the rest of the Manhattan clan is 40 seconds. I'm guessing Greg likes the symmetry of every second of Brooklyn's absence representing a year of his adventures. Also, if Brook is gone for less than a minute, it means the rest of his clan will probably still be standing around wondering where he went (or just noticing his absence, depending on where everyone is when Brooklyn departs). Too much longer and they might start wandering off to search for him. We're also told that Brooklyn's status as second-in-command will become an issue now that he's suddenly older than Goliath - just not during "Clan Building." Which makes sense. The clan will likely be busy getting caught up on what happened to Brooklyn on his journeys, adjusting to all the changes his traveling has caused in him, and of course, welcoming his new family to the clan. Given that and the fact that Brooklyn will only be the equivalent of a 40 year old human to Goliath's 30, I doubt that the issue will come up for a while yet. Hopefully, the fact that Greg says it is an issue means that both Goliath and Brooklyn will live long enough to feel that it's worth discussing, rather than Goliath being killed before naming a new second or Brooklyn being killed, forcing Goliath to choose a new second. But we'll just have to see how it plays out.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Sep 18, 2008 7:30:14 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

I really enjoyed watching the podcast, both halves. How many times can you say "awesome" in one conversation, huh? XD
Asatira
posted @ Thu, Sep 18, 2008 1:36:15 am EDT from 68.190.20.172

Greg Weisman's video podcast is now up at http://www.comicsoncomics.com/

Check it out. Blaise and I got to attend the recording... he's the one who doesn't stop laughing. ;)

It was fun. And I hope you all enjoy it. If you don't recognize Greg, it's because he shaved his beard off. ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."
posted @ Wed, Sep 17, 2008 9:30:02 pm EDT from 75.56.245.4

I'd rather get a canon TPB written by Greg released once or twice a year than a ambiguously-canon movie. I don't want a movie. I want the continuation of the Master Plan, either in Gargoyles or any of the spin-offs in some format. TV, novels, TPBs, comics, whatever.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'
posted @ Wed, Sep 17, 2008 9:18:04 pm EDT from 70.230.176.201

that would be interesting to see a gargoyles movie
Becky - [beckybug1991 at aol dot com]
Becky :)
posted @ Wed, Sep 17, 2008 7:45:48 pm EDT from 71.7.116.47

Karen> "Come on Greg and sell it"

As much as we'd all like to see it, Greg can't just sell it. It's not his property to sell, sadly. It's Disney's.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Wed, Sep 17, 2008 6:48:45 pm EDT from 75.42.209.28

I am waiting for Gargoyles, The Movie! Since Spider-man's been done, this is the only story I really need to see done as a live action movie. It's an awesome story and the medieval times are my favorite movies as well! Does Disney have to allow such a thing? Come on Greg and sell it or hit them up on the "comic" end. Maybe they'll want on the band waggon with all the Marvel hits.
karen young - [katyo_1 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Sep 17, 2008 5:35:48 pm EDT from 67.142.130.12

True. But Greg has said that the Manhattan clan will gain new members from other clans. One of us might be right, but both of us could be wrong. Greg has thrown a monkey wrench into what we assume before, so he could very well do it again.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:36:36 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Adam: yama and sora are from different generations.. so it's not unheard of just unlikeley.. so are Bronx and Boudicca.. and even Broadway and Angela.. (though that's because of the avalon thing and such..)
Starlioness
posted @ Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:15:41 pm EDT from 24.18.247.8

Starlioness- I don't think that Tachi and Artus would be mates because they are from different generations. In my opinion, Artus could be a possible mate for Brooklyn and Katana's third child (if they have one and it is female).

Also, Zafiro and Obsidiana would have had a child that hatched in 1978. They also will have a child in 1998 and another one in 2018. Jade and Turquesa would have eggs in 1998, 2018, and 2038. Jade and Turquesa are the same as biologically as Goliath while Zafire and Obsidiana will be the same as biologically as Brooklyn when he returns from his Timedancer adventures.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:02:51 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

I think it'd be cool if Nashville and lunette were mates.. could have a beaked (maybe) feathered winged gargoyle later on..

but I'm just grasping at straws here..

then there's the possibilty of Tachi and Artus..

be also interesting if Nash didn't have Brook's beak.. haven't seen a fanart of Brook's son without it..

speaking of Katana.. what if she had a beak or something similar like a muzzle or a long-nose like the Tengu were described in Japanese folk-lore? hmm..

and my math may be wrong but, could have Zafiro and Obsidiana had a child in 1978?.. we know the eggs survived the massacre but the hatchlings most likely didn't at that time.,, :(... or maybe they just didn't have one yet..
Starlioness
posted @ Wed, Sep 17, 2008 12:37:28 pm EDT from 24.18.247.8

Rebal- interesting, i agree with you about what there daughter would look like. I also would like to see a beaked female, but not on Brooklynn's daugther
Becky - [beckybug1991 at aol dot com]
Becky :)
posted @ Tue, Sep 16, 2008 10:37:22 pm EDT from 71.7.116.47

Becky > Who knows? Personally, my hopes for Tachi are that she gets Brooklyn's coloring, hair (both its color, and its slight wispyness/spikiness), and horns. IMO, these are Brooklyn's most awesome physical traits, and I'd love to see them on a female. I think red skin and a white mane would look great on a female, and the horns would look good too. I hope she gets most of her other traits (facial shape, wing structure, digit number, tail, etc.) from her mother. I know a lot of people are clamoring for a beaked female, but I actually would rather Tachi didn't have a beak. I definitely want to see a beaked female...I just don't want Tachi to be it.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Sep 16, 2008 8:59:20 pm EDT from 76.165.35.216

Happy birthday, King Harry!

And more importantly, happy birthday to Jennifer Anderson!
Spen
"Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz."
posted @ Tue, Sep 16, 2008 8:35:44 pm EDT from 66.43.205.110

Rebel- I, like you, have some problems with calculating the Avalon clan. One of the things that I have a problem with seems to be a double standard. The mated beasts on Avalon had to wait until there proper age to mate and lay an egg. So I think that should also apply for the Gargoyles. By my calculations, the Avalon eggs should be laid (hatched) in 2258(2498), 2738(2978), and 3218(3458). And in Boudicca stays on Avalon and Bronx in New York, Bronx would be dead by the time Boudicca is in her second heat.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Sep 16, 2008 7:06:32 pm EDT from 76.113.176.63

I wonder what Broklynns and Katana's childern would look like?
Becky - [beckybug1991 at aol dot com]
Becky :)
posted @ Tue, Sep 16, 2008 6:14:20 pm EDT from 71.7.116.47

I think the scottish stock will come largely from Avalon clan eggs. If the avalon clan's breeding cycles correspond with the real-world breeding cycles, then, in Avalon time, the Avalon females could theoretically go in heat every 10 months...actually it would probably be longer than that, since I don't know off-hand how long the "pregnancies" would last or how long it would take their bodies to recuperate. I would say that the Avalon females going into heat every 10 - 30 months, in Avalon time, would be a safe, conservative estimate. The Avalon gargoyles are all near breeding age now, so, it shouldn't be too long before they start producing eggs. If the Avalon females are capable of producing more than three eggs apiece in their lifetimes, and could theoretically lay a new egg every 10 - 30 months, then the Avalon gargoyles would quickly (in Avalon time) have eggs running out their ears. It's possible that the Avalon gargoyles will realize this, and, at some point in the near Avalon future (but distant "real world" future), the Avalon gargoyles will start sending eggs off to the Manhattan clan. There could theoretically be a sizable new batch of eggs from the Avalon clan every 15 - 30 years or so (real world time). I haven't figured out all the math exactly, so this is just a guesstimate. I'm also very tired, so if I've made some glaring errors, that's why.

Here are some thoughts I have about different stages of gargoyle reproduction, and whether each stage is governed by earth's time, or relative time. Let me know what you think.

Going into estrus - governed by earth time...every twenty years in the "real world", theoretically every 10 months on Avalon, though probably longer to allow for pregnancies and allow the body to recuperate and such. In other worlds, the Avalon females might skip every other heat cycle, because they are pregnant or recuperating.

Pregnancy - governed by relative time...wherever you are living, it will seem to take the same amount of time to you. This would almost have to be the case, since it seems impossible that an Avalon female could sustain a pregnancy for 12 years Avalon time. Let's assume a pregnancy lasts 6 months. From the perspective of a gargoyle living in Manhattan, a Manhattan pregnancy would take 6 months. From the perspective of a gargoyle living on Avalon, a Manhattan pregnancy would take about a week (wow). From the perspective of a gargoyle living on Avalon, an Avalonian pregnancy would take 6 months. From the perspective of a Manhattan gargoyle, an Avalonian pregnancy would take 12 years (jesus christ).

Egg gestation - probably governed by relative time...it couldn't be governed by earth time because an Avalon egg would almost certainly rot if it had to actually stay in the egg for 240 years Avalon time. An egg in Manhattan will hatch in 10 years, from a Manhattan gargoyle's perspective. An egg in Manhattan will hatch in 5 months, from an Avalon gargoyle's perspective. An egg on Avalon will hatch in 10 years, from an Avalon gargoyle's perspective. An egg on Avalon will hatch in 240 years, from a Manhattan gargoyle's perspective. This all seems likely, since Angela's rookery was taken from Wyvern in 995, but they didn't hatch until 1058.

Thoughts? I hope the whole "relative time" and "earth time" thing makes sense. Also, please note the quotation marks around "real world". I am well aware that Avalon is real (in the GU), it was just an easy phrase to employ.

If there is some new news about gargoyle biology and reproduction that I haven't heard yet, feel free to inform me. I haven't been able to visit here as much as I'd like.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Sep 16, 2008 6:01:15 pm EDT from 76.165.34.107

Brooklyn's and Katana's children will be half Scottish and half Japanese. Since there is no known Scottish mates for them, Nashville and Tachi will have to take mates from other clans, which will further diminish the "Scottish stock" within the Manhattan clan. Now, there third child, if it is a female, could possible be a mate for Artus. And Nashville and his mate would have their first child in the same rookery as Gwenyvere. There is no question that the Manhattan clan will servive into the future, the question I have is were their be enough clan members of "Scottish stock" to start a new Scottish clan. With new members coming from other clans, that would further diminish the Scottish blood within the Manhattan clan.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Sep 16, 2008 4:27:26 pm EDT from 76.113.176.63

Yep it does. Infact Brooklyn and Katana will comeback with a young hatchling and an egg (and Fudog too of course).
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Sep 16, 2008 3:22:02 pm EDT from 71.120.226.102

Demonskrye> Minor point, but doesn't Timedancing mean that Brooklyn and Katana will produce children TWO generations before Broadway and Angela, rather than one?
Supermorff
posted @ Tue, Sep 16, 2008 2:34:47 pm EDT from 86.131.22.145

Galax> That's what they're doing.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."
posted @ Tue, Sep 16, 2008 1:36:04 pm EDT from 75.56.245.4

Wouldn'd it be a good idea, to release the second paperback only with issues #7 to #12 and an extra paperback only for all six "BadGuys" issues?
Galax - [Dark-Galax at web dot de]
posted @ Tue, Sep 16, 2008 1:28:16 pm EDT from 85.177.214.211

Happy 621st Birthday Harry!
The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Tony Tini
posted @ Tue, Sep 16, 2008 1:24:47 pm EDT from 159.240.11.254

Today is the birthday of the original Harry Monmouth, King Henry V of England.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Sep 16, 2008 7:37:04 am EDT from 4.244.209.76

Harvester of Eyes> We don't know if male gargoyles remain biologically able to father children throughout their lives, but it's largely a moot point. It is very rare for a gargoyle to take another mate after his or her mate dies. It's only slightly more common for gargoyles to take mates from another generation. So aside from the fact that Greg has already indicated that Hudson will not mate again, it seems very unlikely that Hudson would not only take a second mate, but that the gargoyle in question would be young enough for them to produce at least one egg. It just goes against too many gargoyle social traditions and norms. So Hudsn may not be biologically sterile, but he is culturally past breeding age.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Sep 16, 2008 6:44:05 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

Adam> Well, there ya go. None will take up permenant residence in the near-term. So what is your question? Down the road, a group of Avalon Clan gargoyles may be the bulk of the founding members of the new Wyvern Clan. Maybe it'll be a hundred years down the road or whatever, but thats that.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 11:22:03 pm EDT from 70.230.148.155

Hey does anyone know where their are some good up 2 date wallpapers or images of the Gargoyles...And are there any fans that live in North Carolina if so hit me up...
DC - [Darqkloud at aol dot com]
NightGlider
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 10:20:47 pm EDT from 24.211.245.84

Matt, go to the ask Greg archives and look under the Avalon Clan. About a third of the way down, it says "Adam Carlson writes..." (that's me) and I ask if any of the other members of the Avalon clan join Angela in the real world and Greg answered "Eventually, others would visit. But I don't immediately see anyone else taking up permanent residence outside Avalon." As for taking eggs from Avalon, I have issues with how the time difference between Avalon and the real world works on Gargoyles.

Demonskrye- We don't know if the future Labrynth clan is made up of just clones or a combinations of clones and mutates.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 10:17:20 pm EDT from 76.113.176.63

I believe Greg has also said that it was mainly the Clans with a nostalgic connection to Wyvern (Avalon, Manhattan and possibly Labyrinth) that would found the new Clan there. And since all the members of the Avalon Clan and most of the members of the Manhattan Clan are of Scottish descent, that tends to be the type that would settle there. That said, Greg has also confirmed that there wouldn't be any attempt at racial purity or anything and it seems quite likely that some of the founding members of the new Wyvern Clan will not be of Scottish descent, or not entirely so.
Also keep in mind that we really don't know when this Clan will be founded. Sometime in the next 200 years or so is a long time. By the time the new Clan is founded, Manhattan could be a large Clan and Avalon could be bursting at the seams with young gargoyles.
I'd like to see Greg's response where he said gargoyles from Avalon would not come to live in the outside world. Can anyone find that? Did he mean in the near future or something? We know that the Liberty Clan is founded with members from the Avalon Clan, so eventually some do leave the island, or their eggs do at least.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 9:37:39 pm EDT from 70.230.148.155

Todd: What I found confusing about Demonskrye's comment was the line that Hudson is past breeding age. That's really what my own comment was based on.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"It's not about money. It's about sending a message. Everything burns." -The Joker ("The Dark Knight")
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 9:03:53 pm EDT from 76.27.172.55

Greg mentioned once that he had no plans to give Hudson another mate. He explained that one of the cultural traits of gargoyles was that they mate for life - and then he undermined it by having Goliath and Demona break up and Goliath and Elisa slowly moving towards being a couple. So, to reinforce the "gargoyles mate for life" concept, he decided to keep Hudson a widower.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 7:06:37 pm EDT from 4.244.210.202

<Hudson - A "widower" and past breeding age. No possible offspring.>

That's interesting. I know that female gargoyles can only produce an egg three times in their lives, but do the males reach an age where they stop producing gametes? I know that human males continue to produce sperm until the day they die.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"It's not about money. It's about sending a message. Everything burns." -The Joker ("The Dark Knight")
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 5:49:45 pm EDT from 76.27.172.55

Adam> Keep in mind clans can be started with very small numbers of founding members and relatively little breeding potential. We know the Labyrinth clan survives until 2198, despite having started with only four members (after Brentwood's departure) and one breeding pair. (Though it's possible that further cloning may help to increase their numbers.) As for the Manhattan Clan:

Hudson - A "widower" and past breeding age. No possible offspring.
Goliath and Elisa - A gargoyle-human couple. May raise an adopted child, but no biological offspring will result from their union.
Broadway and Angela - Three known future offspring
Brooklyn and Katana - Two known future offspring. Whether a third will be hatched is unknown.
Lexington and Male Gargoyle X - No possible biological offspring.
Bronx - Mated with Boudicca of the Avalon clan. Four eggs (I think?) possible, but dependent on the currently separated pair being reunited to mate again.

So best case scenario, the original Manhattan clan could produce six gargoyles and four gargoyle beasts. Not huge numbers, and at least some of those children will need to find mates outside the clan, partly because Brooklyn's timedancing means that he and Katana start having kids a generation before Broadway and Angela, and partly because with only two breeding pairs in the clan, it would not be long before all of the clan's offspring were blood relations. Yet we know the Manhattan clan survives and even grows. So maybe the New Wyvern clan could start from similarly small numbers of gargoyles with a Scottish bloodline and expand their ranks later on.

That said, your thoughts about gargoyles with Scottish heritage living in the London clan have come up before and it's quite a popular theory. Between Coco's wings being membrane rather than feathered and Griff immediately and correctly recognizing that Goliath is a Scott by birth, it seems likely that the English and Scottish clans of the past had some kind of a history together. I'm not sure how strictly "Scottish stock" is defined. Maybe gargoyles like Coco, who have some but not exclusive Scottish ancestry could be among the founder of the New Wyvern clan.
DemonskryeW - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 5:29:13 pm EDT from 146.115.115.33

Grey Wolf- when Greg has talked about the Loch Ness clan, he seems to imply that they are aquatic of some kind. I'm get the impression that they might have fins and gills. Not what I think of when I think of Scottish stock. And the only female of the Labrynth clan in Delilah and it seems that the two clans of New York stay seperate.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 5:02:51 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Adam: What about the Lochness Clan?
Grey Wolf
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 4:44:24 pm EDT from 76.123.23.235

Adam -- I wondered if it might not come from eggs from Avalon and some from Manhattan or Labyrinth (who are all theoretically Scottish stock, although one's got some Elisa thrown in). But I like your idea of hidden Scottish in London.
UncleDeadly
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 4:38:33 pm EDT from 128.114.181.128

When the new Wyvern clan is formed, I wonder where they will get gargoyles of "Scottish stock" to make the clan. There is only one female of Scottish stock in the real world (Angela), not enough in my opinion to have one clan of Scottish stock, let alone two. I asked Greg a while ago and he said that members of the Avalon clan would not be moving to the real world, so that rules them out. I think, will nearly 200 members of the London clan, I think that there could be a minority of that clan that is Scottish stock.

I think that the Londan clan started as one clan, but gathered members form other clans that were destroyed (kinda like Demona's clan). They easily could have gotten members from the southern part of Scotland.

What do you guys think.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 1:26:39 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

The Ask Greg submission function was shut down because there's almost 150 questions in the queue and no new material to discuss. I'm guessing it will reopen when Greg gets caught up, the trade paperbacks are published, or the new season of Spider-Man starts, whichever comes first.
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 1:16:51 pm EDT from 134.215.196.82

any idea when the ask a question section will be avalibe to ask questions again? why was it shut down in the first place?
RandomStan
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 11:31:55 am EDT from 209.243.47.170

DEMONSKRYE - As far as I know, there are no stories connecting Gorlois (or anyone else in the Arthurian cycle) to living gargoyles. Though, as I've mentioned before, the appearance of the London clan does tie in with the many appearances in the Arthurian legends of lions, wild boar, and white stags (and a few of unicorns and griffons).

Igraine, Gorlois's wife, is sometimes portrayed as of Atlantean descent in modern Arthurian fiction, though there's no trace of that in the medieval works. I look upon it as one of the modern additions like Merlin living backwards.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 10:11:29 am EDT from 198.209.226.130

Todd> The connection there is so odd and unclear that I'm hesitant to mention it again, as we've already covered it in the "gorlois" article. Greg has said that his choice of "gorlois" as the Atlantian word for "gargoyle" wasn't random, but we have absolutely no indication of what the connection might be. Do you happen to know if the name "Gorlois" means anything or if there is anything in Gorlois's history that would suggest a possible connection to either gargoyles or Atlantis or both?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Griif and Arthur at least encounter some very unusual weather during their visit to Tintagel.
DemonskryeW - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 7:53:53 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

DPH - I'm afraid I didn't have any strong thoughts on the subject.

DEMONSKRYE - I've also sometimes wondered if Greg's account of Arthur and Griff's visit to Tintagel would include a fictionalized treatment of his spiritual experiences there.

Perhaps the one thing we didn't touch on in that article was "Gorlois" being also the Atlantean word for "gargoyle".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 7:45:06 am EDT from 4.244.210.84

Todd> (from last week) I've never been there myself, but my impression from the articles I saw while researching Tintagel Castle for the GargWiki article was that Tintagel hasn't gone overboard to the degree that the gargoyle theme park would have. I imagine Arthur is already pretty overwhelmed reading through all the various books based on his life. Who knows if he'd find Excaliburgers insulting, amusing, or just bad. (My research also led me to Greg's report on his trip to Scotland, where he states that it's near impossible to find a good burger in the U.K. I don't quite remember if I agreed with that statement the last time i was there and I certainly don't know if Excaliburgers follow that trend.

Anyways, since Greg's own experiences at Tintagel have been pretty near spiritual, I imagine Griff and Arthur's time there would concentrate more on the wonder and significance of the place that the tourist trap aspects of it.

dph> Well, I'm not Todd, but I did find that response interesting. I think the implication is that, though both mortal magic and Third Race magic are magic, the way in which the species use them is completely different. I think your analogy may still have some truth to it though, as I'd think magic is less of a learned skill and more of an innate ability for the Third Race (though I could be wrong).

Ricky> I do wish we could have finished out the "Stone of Destiny" storyline and "Bad Guys" before the single issues ended, but I can wait if needs be. Much as I enjoy "Gargoyles," I tend to think of everything we've received since the end of the show as a bonus, since the future of the property always seems somewhat uncertain and its life has been extended well beyond what most shows get.
DemonskryeW - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 15, 2008 7:07:08 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

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