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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending October 6, 2008

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LMAO at "Just because it fits, doesn't mean it belongs there".

OFF TOPIC: Is anybody here into ARGs??

Somebody sent my a freaky commercial - a corporation talking about virtues, and how they'd improve todays society.

Their site: http://www.citizensofvirtue.com

On first sight, this looks like a normal site of a christian organisation. Quite well maintaned, various smaller sites, interviews and testimonies - so I just thought "Ah, OK whatever...", but then that RAINBOW caught my eye: look closer, and the word HELP is highlighted!!
The whole glossiness of it all just disturbed me a LOT!!! Like, it was all too polished?
Then I found this: http://www.citizensofvirtue.com/passionix/
And this: http://www.citizensofvirtue.com/VirtuousShopping.aspx
Further links take you to their own reconception of the new testament (including "enough room for you to make notes")!!

Anyways - I don't want to make some kinda commercial or anything - thing is just it's REALLY late at night and I just stumbled over this, and through it's entire... weirdnes it just freaked me out, so, PLEASE, can somebody tell me this is a fake?? Something for a movie or a TV series or something that I missed??

Whilst not belonging to a religion, I studied the main religions through my youth, and I've NEVER seen anything like this before.


Matt> It was a rhetorical question lol.

Kris> I get the feeling that those images existed before the DVDs, but for some reason we just didn't see them until the DVDs. There's an old Gargoyles Look and Find Book that uses the same picture of Demona crouching as she's shown on the inside flap of the Season 2 Volume 2 DVD, so that just kinda makes me think that these images were probably just sitting around somewhere waiting to be used, and they finally decided to... Who knows why Disney does what Disney does.

Also, for anyone who may not have noticed, the image of Goliath on the Hot Topic t-shirt is also on the Season 2 Volume 2 DVD packaging.


Yeah, Ricky, I'm sure you are the only one eager to read the rest of Clan-Building. lol.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

Checked Previews for this month and it lists DISNEY PRESS as the publisher for the Wonderland hardcover collection (all six issues of the Slave Labor Graphics-published series that ran alongside Haunted Mansion, Tron, and Gargoyles). For some reason I was assuming that the trade paperbacks for Gargoyles would be published under Slave Labor Graphics still...did their contract run out for that as well ? Or is Wonderland just a special case ?

Has anyone else here seen "Disney Press" before, listed as publishing comics ? Maybe it's the new home of Gargoyles ?

Ricky, there's no telling, but I would guess Spring 2009 for Volume 2 of "Clan-Building" as well. I feel pretty positive that we'll see the trade paperback for Bad Guys first.

Were the character images used in the new t-shirt available at 80sTees.com made exclusively for the Gargoyles DVDs (where I recognize some of them from), or did they exist before that?

I like the new T okay, especially for Goliath, Bronx, Demona (despite it making her look like a part of the team...which she was at one point, so eh, it can fit), and the nice varied views of wings. The Hot Topic shirt is pretty cool and iconic too though (I wish the back of the shirt was text-optional. It works well as a jog-the-memory ad device to get anyone who saw the series as a kid to remember the opening monologue and the premise of the series, but it's kinda cheese otherwise).

Art-style-wise, the 80sTees.com shirt looks like it was lifted directly from high-quality cels almost, when the animation was at its best, whereas the Hot Topic shirt looks like something that was dreamed up more recently, like a lot of the art on Disney's TV-on-DVD boxed sets.

Kris - [plekopleko at hotmail dot com]


Bronx> Greg already stated that Bronx and Boudicca mated when on Avlaon. It's in the Archieves I think.

Battle beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

I like both shirts, I guess it just makes me happy to see new Gargoyles merchandise, no matter what the form.

Speaking of new Gargoyles merchandise, am I the only one dying to read the rest of Clan-Building? It's highly unlikely at this point that Volume 2 will be out in time for Christmas, but I'm hoping it'll be out not too long after my birthday, which is at the end of January. I know, I know...incredibly wishful thinking.

I don't know much about the time it takes to create comics or TPBs, but if I were to realistically estimate the release date of Volume 2, considering the time it'll take to create as well as the time it'll take to approve, I'd probably say Spring 2009. What do you guys think?


I stand by my assertion. I too was sick of seeing only Goliath on everything, before I realized how cool he was, but having that one simple image works better than just slapping together a bunch of pictures that have little "flow" to their pairing. It's hard to explain, but basically the objects on the 80stees shirt don't look like a group, but a bunch of pieces thrown together.

Now if it was a good cast shot, like, say, that official one (sans Brooklyn's absent wings), then it would be a great shirt. But not this slapdash affair.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

I actually agree with Meg. I bought the Hot Topic shirt to support the property, but I don't like it at all. Goliath seems way too big on the front and I wish there were no words on the back, or at least they could have been centered correctly. The 80s tee may not be perfect, but I think it is better. I love Lex's pose.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

Incisivis> You liked the Hot Topic tee better? I prefer this one. I thought the Hot Topic design/position was uberbland, and much as I love Goliath, I hate how the he's the only one featured on all the Gargoyles merchandise.

Because the 90s didn't become "retro" until just a few years ago.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Mochi> It's in the section "Non-80s Cartoons", so it does kinda make sense. They probably started out with just 80s then expanded.

Landon >> Never knew that t-shirt existed. However, I think that design could use a bit of work. I'm just wondering how a Gargoyles shirt ends up on a site for 80s merchandise if the TV series was done in the 90s...

Anyone have a clue as to what the logic might be behind that...?

The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: <(*¬*<) Sleeping patterns shot...

Here my reviews for the remainder of The Spectacular Spider-Man Season 1:

11- Group Therapy
Have to say that each member gets decent screentime and focus in a single 22 minute episode.

Would of liked to have seen more interaction with Sandman and Rhino since they've worked together before receiving their powers, but otherwise it was good to see their past association touched upon here.

I find the scene with Eddie to be both funny and sad at the same time. Funny because of how he describes it, sad because of what's being said.

Reading the original Alien Costume saga, I wasn't completely surprised that Peter was sleeping during the fight, but it was just as entertaining regardless considering the intensity of the action.

12- Intervention
Even if influenced by the symbiote, it was pretty unsettling to see Peter shoving (in Brock's case literally) his friends away.

As for the origin itself, I'd say that merging the movie and comic version was a good move creative wise.

Hearing Ed Asner in another Spider-Man role was a nice surprise. Makes a good Uncle Ben.

The Black & White tone didn't bother me since I've seen several B&W shows, cartoons and comics/manga. Heck, it's pretty fitting for an episode based off a 1962 story.

Seriously though, Sally felt sorry for Peter? Sounds like we're veering into a What If? territory (kidding).

13- Nature VS Nurture
Not much to say on Venom, but that the character is easily better than the comic. Eddie is more likable, and his transformation into Venom is coherent and well put together.

Getting into the earlier stories through The Essential Spider-Man, it was easy to appreciate the appearances of Peter's various love interest.

With that in mind I'm aware that Pete and MJ won't hook up right away, which is fine since this is about his early years. Besides, I find the Peter/Gwen dynamic to be just as good as the comic, maybe even better (And I'm not just saying it because of the look that she gives either, honest).

Here's to another solid 13 episodes.


when would you show a sneak peek of the spectacular spiderman season 2
naethan - [aka_ragingkid at hotmail dot co dot uk]

I would wait for more information on the official licensing relationship, and then if it were legit, and they didn't gouge on shipping, I would buy it.

But on its own merits, that's a pretty bland design. They just took a bunch of promotinal artwork images and pasted them all together for an ersatz group shot. None of the characters relate to anything; it's just a collage.

The Hot Topic design was nicer.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

I'm looking over their website, and I found this:

"80sTees does not own the rights to the characters/licenses of the characters we sell. Rather, we buy the shirts wholesale from the license holders. For instance, we buy our Star Wars shirts from a company that has an agreement with George Lucas. The company we buy from pays George Lucas a royalty for every shirt they sell to us."

I've bought from these people before. I think they're legit.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"One likes to believe in the freedom of music. But glittering prizes and endless compromises shatter the illusion of integrity." -Rush ("The Spirit of Radio")

Do we know for sure that's an officially licensed t-shirt?
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I just bought that T-shirt

Greg B> I know. Mine's about to have his 2 weeks home from Afghanistan at the end of this month.

T-shirt> I'll see about getting this one; I wish it had been set up a little better. I'd have liked to see Broadway and Brooklyn instead of Demona there, and Goliath given a more dynamic pose. Not that I don't like Demona, but having her in the position she's in doesn't give the onlooker the right idea of her relationship to the rest of the clan. Oh well. At least it's out there to be purchased. ^..^

Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]

Wow, Landon! That is sweet! Lets put our money where our mouths are and show Disney we want more Gargoyles stuff. I'll be getting one of these soon!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

Does anyone know when this shirt popped up? http://www.80stees.com/products/Gargoyles-T-shirt.asp

I guess it's clear Disney licensed to more than just Hot Topic.

Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]

Matt: Count me in too on Supermorff's theory -- the two could have mated during those brief stays on Avalon where they took occasionally took a longer break than usual.
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Well, if it makes one feel better about Bronx and Boudicca not living together, think of soldiers and their significant others. They can go months, even years without seeing each other. Because duty comes first.
Greg Bishanskye - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."

I really like Supermorff's thought that perhaps Bronx and Boudicca didn't solidify their reproductive bond until after several adventures of the Avalon World Tour. Greg has said they mated and will mate again, but he placed no dates on either event.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

Todd> I don't think you can blame Greg for all that. ;)

Bronx's intelligence was never all that mysterious to me -- basically, "superdog". It's how smart you *wish* your dog was.

"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

I still wish that Greg hadn't compared gargoyle beasts to chimps; that gave me the image of Bronx eating bananas in the castle kitchen, and when the trio come in and slip on the peels, laughing at them chimpanzee-style.
Todd Jensen

Chimps are quite smart. They bested Charlton Heston!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Greg B.> "Are the beasts even capable of complex thought like this?"

Well according to Greg W. they're supposed to be about as smart as chimps, draw whatever conclusions you may from that.

"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn

This might or might not be a copyright violations if commentaries are within the user's rights, but this YouTube user on my friends list is doing their own commentary on Gargoyles episodes:


Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Thank you so much. That sounds really cool, and even leaves open the opportunity for other GARG-related species we've not sen yet and Greg's not revealed. ;)

Brook> The shared ancestor of the two species was a 6-limbed flying creature. Gargoyles evolved a more upright posture and kept the wings, gargoyle beasts evolved a horizontal posture and only have vestigial wing bones at best (like whale leg bones, completely encased in muscle/skin and totally useless).
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth-dragon at hotmail dot com]

On a side note: I loughed out loud when I saw the pitching video for the Gargshow Greg did for Disney, where Bronx was a typical "Disney kids cartoon" creature with huge ears and eating asphalt or whatever it was...
I can imagine how Greg changed the character and then went on, kinda like this:

"Look, this is how we want to do the dog." "Ah, OK, cool." "Ok, so APPARENTLY, we changed the dog, he's now more like an animal then a cartoon..." "Uh... wait a minute, why did you chang him?" "Ergh, to fit better into the overal theme of the show?" "AH, GREAT GREAT, cool, yeah, do it, whatever..." "But..." "No, it's allright, kids'll realize it." "...OK..."


Demonskrye> Did Greg ever say when Bronx and Boudicca first mated? Was it that first time the Travellers were brought to the island, or on one of the return visits? Bronx and Boudicca may only have chosen each other as "permanent" mates after being reunited once or twice, i.e. after they had developed the reasonable expectation that they would likely continue to be reunited. That first time they parted, it may have been as simple as saying farewell to a new, close friend, rather than a mated partner.

Or maybe not. Not enough information.


I never understood where these beasts came from anyways...

I mean, they're obviously not capable of flying, yet share look and physiognomy (hope this is the right expression for it) with the Gargoyles...


Gargoyle Beasts> Greg has made a few statements on their intelligence in the past and they're pretty smart, likely smarter than most dogs. They can understand some pretty abstract commands that may mean totally different things in different situations ("help" someone, for example) and are also capable of evaluating situations and taking appropriate action without being asked. They do have their limitations though; they aren't just gargoyles that can't talk. Greg has said that you couldn't tell Bronx to wait in the shadows for ten minutes and then go find Goliath. Taking out the factor that Bronx probably can't tell time, I'm guessing you also couldn't tell Bronx to go wait in the shadows until you give a signal and then go find Goliath. He seems limited to commands that dictate immediate compliance and action and generally don't have more than one step. Greg has also cited Bronx's behavior in "City of Stone" as an example of the limits of gargoyle beast intelligence. When Demona is threatening to smash the stone Elisa, Bronx takes action to defend Elisa. But when she's reprogramming the computer to foil the plan to break the spell and potentially kill the rest of his clan, Bronx does nothing to stop her. He may be a bit suspicious of her, but he can't see how she's doing anything wrong at the moment and her tone of voice remains bright and pleasant. So Bronx does nothing. He's guarding Elisa, which is all he understands his job to be at the moment.

I think Bronx and Boudicca could have assumed that they would continue to see each other as the skiff kept bringing Bronx back to Avalon because I figure the beasts are at least as smart as dogs and dogs can be quite adept at recognizing patterns and anticipating future happenings based on that pattern. I've know many a dog who has a pretty good sense of roughly when dinnertime is every day. My parents' dog, who makes a big ruckus whenever someone leaves the house, is an expert at picking up on what cues indicate that someone is about to go away. All you have to do to start him barking is to say "Okay" or "All right" in a certain tone of voice, as I often do before I get my things and head home. So I can easily see Bronx and Boudicca realizing that the skiff keeps returning to Avalon and coming up with the assumption that they would always be reunited again.

However, the beasts seeing a pattern and thinking it would continue does not explain why they were willing to part ways the first time the skiff left Avalon. Goliath and Elisa didn't know they'd be returning to the island shortly, so Bronx couldn't possibly have known. Boudicca might have guessed that they would be coming back if she had seen other travelers leave Avalon and return shortly thereafter, but if she knew that, she would also know that travelers visiting Avalon eventually leave for good, which sort of negates her decision not to leave with Bronx.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

On a side note, it looks like nobody has actually asked how smart the gargoyle beasts are (or at least I can't find it in the beast section of the archive). It looks to me from their level of language understanding that they're more on par with dolphins or some of the great apes than dogs (equating them, I think, with human/gargoyle children?). Not sure about their problem-solving skills since I'm not remembering that point all that well at the moment. >..< They don't, however, seem to be capable of much foresight; their minds are in "now" and don't really think much about the future.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth-dragon at hotmail dot com]

Matt > Greg W has said once or twice on this site that he agrees there's probably at least one garg pup running around Avalon.

Greg B > Im gonna guess that garg beasts have the minimum intelligence of a normal dog but still they are even smarter than that. As we can see from the series, Bronx reconginzes names and many basic commands (find, stay, protect, help to name a few). But seeing each other after every adventure on the skiff doesnt need intelligence. Its more habit. They got used to seeing each other and so, after this routine had been established, they expect it to happen.

I know Greg W doesnt like comparing gargbeasts to dogs but Im gonna use an example of my dog. When I went off to college some years ago, my mom told me that my dog, Penny, had been looking for me. Penny always stayed in my room at night so, at bed time, my mother had to force her into her room since Penny would be waiting at my bedroom door. Then, each morning, my dog would run to my room and stand there until my mom let her in. After seeing I was not there, she ran downstairs and would run right to the couch, which is where I would be every morning, enjoying my book or laptop. Most animals are creatures of habit and my dog was used to seeing me. Bronx and Boudicca may have fallen into a habit of seeing each other that they wouldnt think about what would happen when Bronx went home (since no animal thinks that far into the future; they only care about the here and now).

Did that make sense? To make a long story short, Bronx and Boudicca got used to seeing each other so often and didnt think it would change, so, therefore, did not see a need to join their mate on the skiff (though I still really wish it had happened).

<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

When Elisa says, "Bronx, Hit it!" in 'Cloudfathers', Bronx knows EXACTLY what she means. Bronx ain't dumb, but he ain't Einstein either.
Battle beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Are the beasts even capable of complex thought like this?
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."

It's really not very just to keep Boudicca and Bronx separated forever. I agree with what others have said--the reason why Bronx didn't stay on Avalon, or the reason why Boudicca didn't join the others in the skiff, was because the two gargoyle beasts probably assumed they'd always see each other, since they kept seeing each other after the stops on the world tour. Had either of them known that the skiff wouldn't be returning to Avalon, I'm sure that one of them would have stayed with the other. I think the attachment to one's mate is probably stronger than the attachment to the clan...unless your mate goes batshit crazy all of a sudden, like Demona in Awakening.

Litwolf> I've also entertained the thought of Oberon leaving Boudicca in New York and how that would've been convenient. Life isn't always easy though. It'll be interesting to see how their seperation plays out.

Adam> You seem very sure that they don't have egg(s) on Avalon. The fact is, we don't know. We don't even know if Greg has decided yet. But my response to you was based on Greg's responses to us on this site over the years. The beast couple on Avalon may have no eggs, one egg, more than one egg or even hatchling(s) at this point depending on the math (which admitedly I have not done), but it is all canon-in-training until Greg nails down exactly how he wants to work garg and beast reproduction on Avalon. We do know that Greg has said that the Avalon Clan will provide eggs to the founding of the 13th Clan at Queen Florence Island so your original point is not going to happen.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

Matt- By that logic, the other two beasts on Avalon should have more than one egg by now, but they do not. They are still going by their biological clocks, so the rest of the clan should to.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

You all make very good points about Boudicca's staying behind. Especially the point made about her having a connection with the Avalon Clan and the two beasts seeing each other between each real world adventure (I always forget that that happens since its never shown in the series). The reason I didnt ask why Bronx didnt stay behind is because he's such a main character of the show, I couldnt imagine him anywhere but with the Manhattan Clan. And that would leave Manhattan without any gargbeast at all. It seemed to fit that maybe Boudicca would be as adventurous as Angela and journey to the real world.

Now, if you care to lend an ear, listen to this little plot bunny that jumped onto my brain.

Oberon brings Boudicca to the real world to search for Puck. He pauses because he has sensed Titania is close. He tries to bring Boudicca with him but she has caught the scent of her mate! Boudicca breaks the leash and goes tearing off after the scent. Oberon considers going after her but waves her off, more interested in finding his own partner. The confrontation happens and Titania goes to ask Goliath for help. The Clan leaves the clock tower to protect young Alexander, leaving Bronx all by-his-lonsome. He dozes off beside Hudson's chair but is awakened by a familar bark. He rushes to the balcony and his angry growls are cut off when he sees Boudicca climbing the wall of the building! She leaps down beside him and the two promptly get reaqquanted.

The battle with Oberon ends and the Clan returns to the clock tower. They are most surprised to see Boudicca curled up beside Bronx. They puzzle over a way to send her back to Avalon but, with no skiff, there is no way to do so. "I guess that means youre staying with us, Boudicca," Angela comments. Boudicca simply snuggles back against Bronx. And when the sun rises, Boudicca stands proudly beside her mate, ready for whatever this city may throw at them.

^_^ Wouldnt that have been so cute?! *sighs* oh well. If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak! Sorry for rambling, the plot bunny jumped on me HARD.

<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Archbishop> Sorry if I got a little touchy -- my first impression was that you were calling US pathetic for not somehow bringing the dvds into being, but I now realize you were just venting. It is a depressing situation, I know. And believe me, it has been addressed. Boy has it been addressed. We try not to dwell on it too much -- well, those of us not named Jonny, anyway.

By the way, I wouldn't give up on the Bad Guys spinoff just yet. It may not be the familiar main cast, but it's still rollicking good storytelling from the master himself about people we've met in the Gargs universe and stories that tie into the fabric of the whole -- plus it's just a few bucks per book and every sale helps the property. Maybe it's worth reconsidering?

"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

No, not scolding just complaining and unsure if it had been addressed. I do appreciate the feedback however. I wasn't angry in that rant, more like despair ridden.

Thanks regardless

ArchBishop Franken-Chokey
F-C the midget smacker!

@ Matt: I'm not sure if this is confirmed, but if it is, allow me to say, that apparently, somebody is going to have a good time on that island...

And I guess Gargoyle reproduction is safe there. :) So, regardless of whatever happens, we can be pretty sure that, thanks to Avalon, there'll always be Gargoyles in the Garg Verse. :D


i wonder wat Bronx and buddiccias childern would look like? i can see wat they might look like in my head
Becky - [beckybug1991 at aol dot com]
Becky :)

Adam> Your math looks pretty spot on to me, but your reasoning is the problem. Boudicca is already old enough to bear young. Her fellow beasts on Avalon probably already HAVE had an egg. But gargoyles and beasts are not running strictly on an internal biological clock in this matter, rather they are reproductively attuned to Earth. In the 'real world' gargoyles and beasts come into heat every 20 years not because they've aged 20 more years since the last time, but because the Earth is influencing them to enter into heat. On Avalon, those same influences are occuring, only 24 times faster because of the difference in time passage. So, the Earth seemingly cycles much faster on Avalon. That means that technically any gargoyles and beasts of breeding age on Avalon could experience heat every nine or ten months! Now, there are a couple of issues here. First of all; what is breeding age? In the 'real world' gargoyles can lay three eggs and beasts four because only that many heats occur when they are in breeding age. On Avalon gargs and beast could potentially be parenting eggs when they are younger and older than their counterparts in the 'real world'. Another issue is that it doesn't seem possible for garg or beast females to be popping out eggs every ten months, so they'd probably go through a heat and parent an egg then take a break for a while. Even so, gargs and beasts on Avalon can potentially have many more hatchlings than they would in the real world. That is a large reason that in the future the Avalon Clan will probably play a major part in boosting the numbers of various other Clans, esspecially in the founding of the new Wyvern Clan.
So, to get back to your point, the next breeding cycle occurs in late 2007/2008. Boudicca on Avalon will experience this heat and she is certainly in breeding age, so if Bronx is around she will concieve then. The next cycle would occur in late 2027/2028, which would only be ten months later on Avalon. It is uncertain if Boudicca could concieve again so soon, so perhaps she'd skip that heat. But I hope you get my point here. By 2198, Bronx and Boudicca could have many decendents, not just hatchlings of their own, but biological grand-hatchlings.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising." -Mark Twain, 'A Connecticult Yankee in King Arthur's Court'

Archbishop> Are you scolding us for something? What, exactly? Not wanting it enough? I can assure you that pretty much everyone in here has bought at least one copy of the dvds for themselves -- which is a reasonable way of showing moderate fan support, so I'm not sure why you present your own purchase of the dvds as somehow heroic just because you already had tapes and didn't NEED to buy the dvds. It's just the first thing you do if you're a fan and want to support sales.

I'm afraid you're preaching to the choir. We all bought our copies, but the problem is the larger audience of people who enjoyed the show and didn't buy the dvds, and maybe didn't even know they existed. We've been over it and over it, but in the end there's no point in complaining and assigning blame and going over the way things turned out in the past. It just clutters up the forum and puts everyone in a bad mood. There's nothing else we can do now about that except what Greg has constantly and repeatedly been asking us to do -- SPREAD THE WORD.

Only if you do intend to go out and try to help the cause by spreading the word yourself, please do lighten up your attitude or you'll just scare everyone off and help no one. You'll catch more flies, etc.

"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

Todd> I undersatand. *SIGH*

It annoys us all, I guess...

Battle beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Hey guys, just me again with your monthly nag. *L*
MGC is updated and voting is open on the Video Games topic, for the next two weeks only. Also check out the new topic (all about the show's faes, could be a ton of fun) and feel free to get inspired!

Thanks! :)

kess - [< Updated for October]

@ Archbishop: Without the anger: yes. It is a problem.

But let me clear up something: Gargoyles HAS a loving fanbase. It is vital, it is alive, and it is even "big" - but nothing over a number of 10.000.

Futurama HAS a lot more die hard fans. FUTURAMA has a lot of fans that aren't die hards, but love the series.

And, there are a lot of peoplewho love Futurama and just got the DVDs for the fun of it, yet aren't what is considered a vital part of the fanbase.

The problems with the comics was, that it wasn't promoted in a BIG BIG way (big = big enough to make 10.000 people care, who do not), that it was mostly sold in america and had just a few copies in europe (at least over here, and they sold quickly), and that Disney just... OK, no more swearing, Disney took way too long time to give greenlights. People LEAVE when something takes too long. Who can blame them?

I do not blame Disney. They're not the big bad company some people do like to show them off as, but they COULD have given more promotion to the GargDVDs. They COULD have sold REGION 2!!! DVDs FOR EUROPE, so THE SALES IN EUROPE WOULD RISE!!!!!!!!!!!! And they could have hurried some more with the greenlighting of the comics and given some more promotion to them here and there.

Yes, Futurama hasn't got a convention, but it was a new and loved show when it got cancelled. People took action right away, so it was no problem to come back.

When GARGOYLES was cancelled, nobody in the corporation had any interrest in it anymore, Greg hadn't had a hold on the rights, so it got ditched.

What matters is not that we moan about how badly organized the fanbase is!! We have to increase sales!!

And I'm sorry you didnÄt pick up BAD GUYS, even I, mister sarcasm, was VERY surprised at how fine the comics ended up!!


Ultimately it's depressing and undeniably pathetic that the so called "family atmosphere" of the franchise can't pull together enough to bring the remainder of the DVDs to life. Perhaps its because I'm a believer in the things I love that this bothers me so. Perhaps its because of my Headbanging roots that makes me so fanatical to the things I like, that drive me to want more and to help that which I love see life that I can't understand why so many people have completely fallen down on the resurrection of the DVDs.

I did my part, the second I heard that the first two volumes had been unleashed on the unsuspecting world I went out immediately and procured my own copies. I didn't have too mind you, I stayed up my entire senior year of high school (2001) taping each episode. My family had only recently installed a satellite dish and I hadn't seen Gargoyles for several years and as such had almost forgotten about them.

After the release of the DVDs I threw all my home recorded copies away, perhaps I was too premature in my in my enthusiasm. It's interesting to me that Futurama, a show that while not cancelled, was taken off the air, has comeback to life with the release of four straight to DVD movies and a possible resurrection of the franchise and yet it doesn't have yearly conventions. Granted its not owned or operated by Disney, but its still run by a big corporation all the same.

Its simply befuddling how a show that claims such fan loyalty and devotion could fail in its attempts to bring itself from VHS to DVD and that its second run at comic book syndicate would ultimately fail too (given its shoddy and very unprofessional delivery its not hard to see why its been pulled as I too have nearly stopped caring about getting the remainder of the issues.)

Could it be that the so called "die-hard" fan base was nothing more than a fabrication, created for the sole purpose of trying to regain the attention of the fickle public? That is what it looks like to me at least. At this point its easy to assume that the rest of the "bi-monthly" Gargoyle comic probably won't be coming out, and lets face it, while Greg does have some good ideas regarding possible spin offs, I for one could care less. I want to read about the main characters from the show as a whole, not individually (hence why I haven't bothered with the "Bad Guys" mini.)

It would be sweet to be proved wrong in this instance. It's too bad Disney doesn't release the remainder of the series on a limited number of DVDs, that way they'd be available for those who care about the show, just a thought at least.

(Also annoying is that 'ask Greg' isn't taking questions....not sure if this has been addressed or not but I want to rant so cope!

ArchBishop Franken-Chokey - [7thson at metal-rules dot com]
the great F-C

Sorry to double-post, but we've had a few more interesting answers on Ask Greg. It's been confirmed that none of the members of the Coldtrio have any sense of smell of taste. They do have limited tactile sense, but it sounds like it doesn't go much beyond " I sense pressure" and "I sense heat."

For the organizers of the next Gathering, Asmo and Lightflow has/(have?) suggested that the next convention include a baby shower for Derek and Maggie where the gifts brought are donated to local charities. It sounds like it could be a fun side event for the Masquerade, maybe with a cosplaying Derek and Maggie to accept the presents.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Brook> Oh goodness, no! That's Sean "Cheeks" Galloway's blog. He's the main character designer on "Spectacular Spider-Man," among various other projects. I linked to his blog a while ago to point out something he had posted of particular interest to the room here and just never removed it. It's always worth checking out. One of his recent posts was some early design test for the Spider-Man cast. But no, I'm not him. The closest I ever got to him was seeing him at a Hellboy Animated panel at SDCC.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Yes, but Boudicca would have missed her first heat as the mated pair would have had their first egg laid in 1778 and hatched in 2018.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

@ Demonskrye: Is that blog you link to actually you?? O_O

Adam> I'm not in a position to question anyone's math, but did you take into account the fact that gargoyle beasts are able to mate an concieve a mat at an earlier age than gargoyles and can consequently have at least four eggs per pair?
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

According to my math, Boudicca's next head will not happen until 2258, when the rest of the Avalon clan will be mating. Bronx will be long dead by then if he stays in the real world. Some people might have a problem with my math, but if the mated pair of beasts has to wait until they are old enough biologically have offspring, then it should hold true for the rest of the clan. Since Gargoyle are 25(50) years old when they lay their first egg, then 50x24=1200 and add that to 1058 you get 2258.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

@ Demonskrye: Kinda ridiculous picture, but yeah, would be a fun thing to her suddenly appearing in Manhattan on a skiff. :D

Hm... I think that Greg definetely has at least one Bronx story that matters in the entire canon - so I guess we'll see that sooner or later.
I still think that the arc that comes after CB centers on character development. At least I wish or it to happen that way...


Demonskrye> You're right. I hadn't thought about the world tour creating a new pattern in their lives that they'd think would continue for the foreseeable future. There wouldn't have been reason for them to anticipate the kind of separation that resulted from the skiff's landing in New York again. Boudicca not joining them was still probably due to a combination of factors, but I think your theory would have played a part in it.

The poor things probably really miss each other now. I can see Boudicca curling up on the shore and whimpering, waiting for the others to return. -..-

Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth-dragon at hotmail dot com]

Can we please tone down the language, in post with or without a point? Greg W already came in here once and asked us to cut it out and I'm not particularly looking forward to him doing it again. It adds exactly nothing to the discussion to throw in a swear every fifth sentence, so please just leave it out.

Bronx> I'm kind of worried that Bronx may end up being something of a casualty of the comic format. It's not that you can't tell a good Bronx story in a comic, but with only six issues per year when the series was being published assuming a working schedule, stories that focus on the dog-like character who can't talk are probably going to be pushed aside in favor of stories that focus more on the other members of the clan. I don't think we'll never see Bronx do anything in the comics, but I doubt we'll see a story like "The Hound of Ulster" anytime soon.

As for why Boudicca didn't end up coming on the skiff with Bronx, I have a acouple of possible theories. One is that neither of the two beasts realized that they would end up being separated for so long. Given that Bronx, Goliath, Elisa, and Angela returned to Avalon after every stop on the world tour, it's easy to see how they could come to believe that they would always see each other again before long. The other possibility is that both beasts feel that their respective places are with their respective clans of birth. As much as they may care about each other (which, from Greg's comments that beasts are also monogamous and don't usually mate again if their mates die, I imagine they do), their attachments to their own clans still run deeper. I think the answer might be a little from column A and a little from column B. I don't know that it's a sure thing that Boudicca will join the Manhattan Clan in the future, but I could easily see her hijacking a skiff and ending up in Manhattan in time for her next heat.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Litwolf> It could be that the emotional tie binding Boudicca to the Avalon clan was stronger than the affection she had for Bronx at that time. Yes, they care for each other, but they'd just met. Even though *we* know they're right for each other, they're still new to one another, the pull of family and fear of the unknown still there. I notice nobody's asking why Bronx didn't stay on Avalon to be with her. ;P

Not that I'd be that comfortable losing Bronx as a main character; I'd rather gain Boudicca, personally, but it's hard to say what will happen. We already know Fu-Dog joins the clan and is male, I'd like to see a female beast or two in the Manhattan clan.

And I don't really agree that Avalon's beast population isn't lacking. One breeding pair and its offspring doesn't really augur well for the future, since the offspring would have to look to the rest of the world for mates. It'd be nice if either the Avalon beasts rejoined the rest of the world or another clan (or clans, though Xanadu would be the best single resource) sent some of its younger beasts to Avalon to establish a stable breeding population.

Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth-dragon at hotmail dot com]

I forgot to mention: I'm also really excited for the next, urgh, "journey" to take place. The Avalon and Timedancer arcs are quite unusual plot devices, and I hope (and guess) that Greg has plans for something big, probably not a journey, but something very unusual and cool to happen between 1998 - 2000 in the Gargverse.

@ Litwolf: I'm NOT complaining - I just wanted to point out that there might be a reason for Greg not to reveal anything about Brooklyns future, as opposed to Broadway, Lex and Goliath, of who we've got hints what's going on.
I suppose that Greg will share some more information after CB TPB Vol.2 though...

As for the lack of knowledge of what is to come after CB - I'm EXCITED!! :D We allways had this image in our heads of what was going to happen, and now it's just so new, fresh and exciting... not that CB wasn't, but with what comes after, I'm really excited to see how Katana, the Othello&Desdemona and others(??) will develop,a dn what Greg is going to do with the Illuminati, Quarrymen etc.

Interresting thing about Boudicca... I dunno... too heavy for the skiff isn't an option I guess... I'm puzzled... probably she'll join the Manhattan Clan in the future...?


Kth and Brook > Im with Kth. Yeah, we dont know much about Brooklyn's future but thats kinda the point. Greg had never been required to share anything with us. We should consider it a gift to get the tinyest scrap of info from him; not complain that he's not supplying enough. I know tons of authors/creators who dont reach out to their fans at all and refuse to say anything about their stories and plots. We're lucky Greg is so open with us fans.

Since there was a comment about Bronx, I wanted to ask you guys this question. Its was something I thought of while I was enjoying an Avalon marathon two nights ago. When Goliath and gang are about to leave, Bronx and Boudicca whimper a goodbye to each other. We already know that, at some point in Avalon, the two of them snuck of to mate and now Boudicca will bear Bronx an egg. But my question is, why the heck did Boudicca not go with them?!

There's really no reason for her to stay behind. Her mate was going back to the real world and there are two other garg beasts on Avalon (possibly three, if the other pair have already breeded) so Avalon wouldnt be lacking garg beasts. There was pleanty of room in the skiff and I think Boudicca would have been a great addition to the Manhattan Clan. Besides, I havent worked out the math but Im fairly certain that Ive heard that, with the difference of time flow, Bronx might even be gone by the time Boudicca goes into her next heat. And they gotta be missing each other!

There seems to be no logical explanation as to why Boudicca couldnt have joined her mate and the others on their journey back to Manhattan. Any thoughts, guys?

<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

So does the majority of heterosexual women on planet earth.

Make a point or leave.

Thank you.


nate rogers - [asdewqt at aol dot com]

gargoyles are the shit
bob - [asdewqt at aol dot com]

Sure - my point is not that he should reveal more (or less). My point is that there are some vital REASONS for him to not reveal what happens next, because there will be some mayor twists with the next arc/season. (I think...)

Oops. Sorry for the double.

Becky> Bronx is discussed from time to time. I think he's not the subject of more discussion because it's harder to measure things like character development and relationships with a creature who can't speak and appears to be of, for lack of a better term, "animal" intelligence (though he's definitely on the high end of that scale, closer to a dolphin than, say, a dog).

Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth-dragon at hotmail dot com]

Brook> Why should Greg tell us everything? It would tip his hand, and give him fewer chances to surprise us. Not that he's lost the ability to spring the unexpected on us; even when we knew in a general sort of way what would happen in the Clanbuilding arc, he included things we never suspected. But it was still harder for him to do that when we knew so much going in. During the years when it looked like the property would never be revived, Greg let more slip than he otherwise would have, and I doubt he'll be that free with his information again. We'll just have to wait and see.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth-dragon at hotmail dot com]

About WHO???

Oh, that Dog...

Yeah... well...

Anyways, back to Brooklyn.
The issue is, that Greg's been holding back a LOT about him!
We know of his family and his arising problems with Goliath. We know that he's carrying a sort of "wound" after the TIMEDANCING.

And that's it.

So peopl are speculating a lot.
I HOPE it's not true. Killing him would open quite a weird door for the future series: we had a widow and 2 orphans in the clan. It would also open the door for Brooklyn, ergh, having quite a shit time whilst Timedancing (we know that people try to conceal his own future from him - why's that?)
See - I love the character. He's my favourite. But he's also the one, we know almost nothing about.
Greg NEVER says he's not made up his mind on a hird child, in the post he writes:
"She'd wait at least four years if not longer. (Gargoyle females share a common cycle. Katana was removed from that normal cycle by her time jumping." NOW IT COMES: "If she settled down, I wonder if she'd rejoin the normal cycle or not? With Angela, I decided she would."

"I wonder if she'd rejoin the cycle?"

This somehow sounds suspicious to me, in some way...

Greg is putting out hints to us. Hints who kinda make NO sense - he never revealed anything about Lex mate or his children cause he's gay.
He's not telling us what Titania whispered for he'll use it in a future storyline to shock all of us (hopefully).
He's not told us what happens with Goliath, and why he's forced into "hiding" - "BRIEFLY".

He's told us Brooklyn being "scarred" - yet fails to tell us what it is - and I doubt he does because of cool character design.

And he's still lacked of dropping anything CONCRETE in the time period of 1998 - 2008, except for some minor clues, plot outlines (Lex-Xanacorp, Goliath hiding, Lex "journeying" in some way, Ultrapack happening etc.).

It's like he goes "OH, yeah, the Gargoyles will leave the clocktower in S2." - but yet he doesn't mention the Hunters, the Hunters BLOWING UP the clocktower and the result of the founding of the Quarrymen.

This is what I'm saying all along: we have a vague picture of what is going to happen in the future - but we know s!!! about what ACTUALLY is going on, whilst we very well knew Brooklyn will visit Mary&Finella, 70s NY, feudal Japan and 2198, we knew Xanatos having a masquerade, Thailog bashing it and G&E being back togetehr (Greg revealed this AGES ago, and then never talked about it again, just found it a few days ago), we knew of the Coldstone in the arctic subplot... damn, we knew quite a lot about what was going to happen in CB - now, what do we know of 1998 - 2000? Well? Yeah? NOTHING!

There might be some kind of bonding ceremony between the big guy and Mrs. M., but apart from that - what's happening to Brooklyn? What about Angela and Broadway and their relationship? What about LEX - does he fall in love??

And 2000 - 2010 is even more vague.

OH, long post - my wrap up:

Brooklyn is the one we know the fewest of AFTER his Timedancing. I seriously wonder why, and I doubt that Greg doesn't know what is going to happen to him.
And I am very sure his wound is EITHE something small (like seen in FT with his hands), OR something SO BIG in a 2face TDK kinda way, we'll all go "HOLY FUCK; THIS ISN'T EVEN BROOKLYN ANYMORE!!", to make the change of his character and the end of the trio days more visible and painfull.


wat about Bronx? i don't here much about him on here?
Becky - [beckybug1991 at aol dot com]
Becky :)

HoE> Ah, thanks. I never would have noticed that. So he got his cameo *as* the gargoyle reviewer...cool.

Supermoff> Thanks for posting that. That answer reminded me of something else I'd forgotten (or never thought about) -- there were sixteen-year-old hatchlings at Wyvern. *shudder* Eugh. Poor kids.

I've also been growing to suspect a darker and darker future for Brooklyn -- serious dismemberment, emotional estrangement, and now, perhaps a premature death that would prevent a third child we had conspicuously failed to hear anything about. Good to know the ambiguity might only be because of uncertainty over Katana's cycles and not a tragic death for one or both parents. Of course, the door is still open to that, I suppose.

"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

Hey Matt, cheers for asking that question. It somehow feels more 'real' as a spin-off for having a title, even a stop-gap one. Very cool.

How'd I forget my pic?
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

"Heroes of Ulster" -- Seeing as Ireland is just one of those places with more mythology per square inch than most places on earth, I would love to see more of Rory, Molly, etc -- TV series, a mini-series comic, full-fledged comic series, a TPB, anything really.

Brook -- I REALLY hope that's sarcasm . . . last thing we need is ANOTHER question in the queue about S2V2. (But I personally wouldn't mind another smart-a** response from Greg concerning Titania's whisper.) :D

"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Brook > Too bad the Ask A Question section is still down.

Asatira > Good to know Im not the only one who likes to apply biology and whatnot to gargoyles ^_^

Oh, and, I cant remember if we had come to a consensus on this last week, but I watched Future Tense. Brooklyn has a silver bracer on each of his wrists and, on his right hand (Im fairly certain its his right) he has a black bandage wrapped around his claw. Its not holding anything up or keeping anything attached to his person. So possibly a wound? Possibly my mecha claw idea could be true? ^_^

<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs


(or when Season2Vol2. finally comes out)


Latest from Ask Greg: the proposed Rory and Molly spin-off now has a working title of "Heroes of Ulster." Sounds like it's not necessarily ever going to be the final title, but it gives us something to call it for now.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I don't see why she wouldn't lay an egg...I mean, wouldn't she have until 2008 to "re-align"? That's plenty of time.

By now, he will have made up his mind about that. :)

Could somebody please ask that question AGAIN??


Good news: I'm not as crazy as I thought, and I didn't make up that fact about Brooklyn and Katana's third child. Greg said it in the answer to question 8 in this comment: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=6

That was recorded in 1998, so who knows if it still holds?


So someone just raised the question of Brooklyn and Katana's third child. If I remember correctly, Greg once mentioned that he had not decided whether they would have a third child. If they don't, he suggested that Katana might not be able to re-align her body's biological rhythm with the natural rhythm of the Earth in time for her final heat.

I honestly can't remember where or when I read this. It's possible I may have made it up.


Litwolf> I was going through the same thing when I went through population ecology last fall. Mix that with animal behavior ecology at the same time, and a later ecology class in the spring (whose name I forget), well, there was a lot of fun thinking of how to apply it to gargoyle biology and ecology. I just don't get a chance to apply in discussion: discussions here move so damn fast! Someone always beats me to a point.

I was trying very hard not to crack myself up during my Environmental Studies class this morning. We were talking about population of species. As I had had a little Awakening marathon the night before and an Avalon marathon the night before that, my head was filled with gargoyles and so translated what we learned into how it affected gargoyles. Here's what I can tell you:

~ Gargoyles are a K selected species. This means that they have few offspring (per adult) with great parental care (the example used in class was an elephant). The opposite of this is an R selected species; they rely on many offspring to overcome high mortality rate (fish).

~ Gargoyles suffered a 'Population Crash' when humans developed tools that could shatter their stone sleep (which had been reliable protection from harm). We can guess that they will go through a 'Boom and Bust' over the next few years as the clans of the world begin to connect with each other and will attempt to spread their genes.

~ Genetic drifts between clans is what makes gargoyles from different clans look so different (snake bodies of the Mayan, fur and feathers in London, possibly gills and fins in Loch Ness).

But my favorite part was when my professor explained metapopulations to the class. Metapopulations, for those who dont know, are a collection of populations that have regular gene flow between geopraphically sperated units. He showed us a diagram, one that was very similar to this one http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/for/for76/08.gif, and went on the explain using squirrels. However, my mind had already named the units different clans and I wanted to take a pen and start assigning names to the different blobs/populations on the chart. "This one is Manhattan Clan, this one Mayan, and that one way over there is Ishimura."


It made me smile so much, I thought I might share it with you guys. Ill tell ya, gargoyles has found a way to make my Environmetal Studies class more interesting.

<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Bluewyvern: Adam appears in Gargoyles #5, as one of the party-goers. Look on page six.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"One likes to believe in the freedom of music. But glittering prizes and endless compromises shatter the illusion of integrity." -Rush ("The Spirit of Radio")

Pity Adamrulz doesn't pop in here a bit more...he posed two or three different questions in his review that he concluded with a "Who knows?" Well, we know! (Like why the comic is in b&w, and the fate of the remaining issues.)

What was his cameo, btw? I didn't get the impression that he was a fan "insider", his reviews seem very much from the perspective of a casual fan who just happened to pick up the comics and is trying to figure out what they're all about. Very enjoyable, though -- it is good to get the "outside" perspective when most of us are probably too close to tell how they're generally received. And I hope the reviews are getting at least a little attention.

"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

Adamrulz is the fucking greates!! I cracked when this bear suddenly comes up!! And how he STILL has to mention his own cameo in the series!!

Hughe props for that guy!!! He introduced the word COCKBLOCKED in a whole new context to the GargVerse!! XD


BATTLE BEAST - Unfortunately, the rules only allow me to delete ideas masquerading as questions and questions on multiple topics all in the same post. The "pregnat" question, silly though it was, didn't fall into either category.
Todd Jensen


Brooks and Katanas 3rd child:

This is a hard one...

So, females have ther heat 3 times in their life, right? I thought Brooklyn doesn't meet her up until her second heat... (god, how that READS OUT...)

Anyways, I kind of... wrapped my mind around it, that at some point... we might say goodbye to Brooklyn. :( His Timedancing gives the opportunity for him to pop up in various times and places, but... I dunno... I hope he's not the one to get killed, then again, his future after he cames back from the Timedance is really unclear. We know he has 3 Kids, we know there are rising problems with Goliahs leadership, but that's it!!

Therefore, we talked 2 weeks ago about the possibillity something *might* happen to him. We know of Broadways and Lex's future, but nothing of Brooklyn.

As I said before, the future is kind of unwritten for us. We have some story points we know of, but we had real outlines on some of the comic issues (not details - outlines). With what comes after CB, we hardly have outlines, but some rather cryptic clues by Greg.


Adamrulz does his review on Bad Guys #4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u22kWI1J5Go
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Greg Weisman : "It's good to be 45." I hope you're right on that one; I'll be finding out in seven years.

And by the way, Greg, happy Rosh Hashanah!

"Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz."

I don't know if anyone has ever brought this up before, but I find it weird that Greg has never really mentioned if Brooklyn and Katana have a third child. I have looked through the Ask Greg archives and can not find an answer. Could this mean that Greg has not thought that far ahead (seems unlikely because he usually has things like this planned ahead) or that either Brooklyn or Katana die at some point between 1997 and 2008.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

Brigadoon Traveller> Actually as someone mentioned before, the addition of Katana, Nashville and Taichi would help to make the continuity reader friendly. As we see in issue 3, Greg will implement flashbacks for the sake of the newer readers, but it works within the boundary of the story because Al is providing the information to Shari.

Same with Katana and Nashville. New readers need background on The Pack, Brooklyn and Lexington can delve into detail storywise by telling Katana about them.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Not to be rude, because I know you try your best, Todd, but... Should a question be submitted to Greg like "When will I get pregnat (sic)" ??
Battle beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

After reading the interview about "Progeny", I became particularly curious about the super-hero named Lady Merlin.
Todd Jensen

Chip: <How it relates to Gargoyles: Constantine III mentioned it during Avalon part I.>

Speaking of that scene, I always wondered why it was gonna take him so long to inspect his holdings. One would think it wouldn't take very long for him to look at his sceptre. ( ;

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"One likes to believe in the freedom of music. But glittering prizes and endless compromises shatter the illusion of integrity." -Rush ("The Spirit of Radio")

Brook> "We did not know of the stone of destiny arc, true, but the outline of the first, 5 issues and that of the last 3 are known to us"

I wouldn't say we knew the outline of the first five or of the last three; granted the first two we know because of the episode "The Journey", but aside from the double date story, there was a lot from #3-#5 we had no idea about. For starters we had no idea that Thailog was gonna show up and spoil the whole show (we only found that out from the solicitations). Plus Xanatos' trip to Washington was new; really the double date story almost felt like a side dish in the whole story of #3-5, with Thailog's return acting like the main course.

Also the last three issues, aside from the timedancer story, we don't really know the specifics of how each of these issues will play out. (The major exception to that is probably #11, which I have a feeling form the solicitations will probably involve the whole Mary & Finella dance to 20th Century plus possibly exploring the formation of the Demona-Xanatos alliance.)

I have no idea how Greg's gonna go from telling Brook's first TimeDancing adventure, to bringing him back to Manhattan 20 years older with a family in tow, without confusing the bejeebers out of new readers. But I'm confident that he'll manage an interesting way to pull it off, and am really looking forward to reading the end of Clan-Building.

Brigadoon Traveller

Oh - personally I also think that Amp isn't Lex "love interrest" - but I guess Lex does realise what he feels inside.

(JKR so STOLE that with her Dumbledore announcement rofl)


Surre, we do know things - bt not as, ergh, "laid out" as we did with CB. Goliath's trial remeains a mystery to me (has Greg spoiled something?? Is that about his "hiding"??), aswell as that trickster arc with Alex.

We did not know of the stone of destiny arc, true, but the outline of the first, 5 issues and that of the last 3 are known to us.


In case anyone's interested, I just put up some photos and stuff from my recent trip to Alaska, Land of the Raven (sadly, no pics of any ravens in this batch -- they're all on my companion's camera!). I did make the trip a bit of a quest for Raven, one of my favorite trickster characters (though I must admit I'm a little sad about how he was just a flat baddie in Gargoyles -- I hope we would have seen more sides to him if we'd seen more!). Among the things I brought back were loads of books on native folklore (I found quite a few on Russian folklore, too -- in Russian. Good thing they're illustrated), a fascinating book called "In the Company of Crows and Ravens," and a small wooden Raven totem which I prize. I also bought some comfy gloves from the Skinny Raven sporting apparel store, sipped blackberry sage tea at the Ranting Raven cafe, and enjoyed a divine massage treatment at the Raven's Nest spa, but that's all just coincidence. ;)

I watched "Heritage" again when I returned home and appreciated it anew. Especially since I had always mentally located Queen Florence Island in the north*east*, which confused me, since it clearly seemed to belong to the northwest. I realized I had it confused with Prince Edward Island, when it's actually based on the Queen Charlotte Islands, which are south of Alaska. So all's well, then.

Anyway, I had an awesome trip, and brought back a few nice pictures. Click my name to see.

"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

There's a lot that we do know, such as;
* the trickster story with Alex,
* Goliath's trial,
* Demona trying to reach out to Angela
* Queen Mab eventually resurfacing
Plus there'll be the continuation of threads started off in Clan-Building, such as the Quarrymen, the Illuminati schemes, Thailog's plans for the DNA he stole, Shari's involvement in the whole picture etc. (All of which btw still remains a mystery to us).

But I'm sure there is a lot we don't know about the future, just like there were things we didn't know about Clan-Building (such as the Stone of Destiny arc). But I like that even though Greg has given us this wealth of info, he still manages to surprise us. Personally I'd rather that what comes after CB #12 remain a mystery until such time as Greg is able to tell us.

Brigadoon Traveller

Nah, I just wanted to point out that the MAIN issues of interrest and mayor events we do know about that happen IN THE NEAR FUTUE (no 2198) have been issues in Clan Building.

Most that we know what was going to happen, happenned by now, and what is going to come is a LOT more unknown to us. I mean, when CB was announced, everybody had these ideas what would happen, and most did happen, because Greg told us about it.

What exactly happens in the ext 5 years after the CB arc is done is prety unknown to us.


Brook> I'm a little confused about what exactly you're saying. Do you feel like the rest of the Clan Building arc is all just stuff that's been revealed to us already? If that's the case, I'd beg to differ. Except for the Gathering attendees who already know what happens in what would have been issue #9, we really have little to no clue what goes down in the last part of the Stone of Destiny storyline. We know aout Brookyln's timedancing adventure and the family he brings back with him, but we don't know many of the specifics of his initial trip to Scotland or any of the adventures he has after that. As for the specifics you cited, Elisa and Goliath'd relationship has not reached an end point. We know that they will have a formal ceremony of commitment at some time in the future and there are indications that they will be raising a child together (who is not biologically theirs, of course). We still have no proof that Amp is queer as folk (if you'll pardon the expression) and even if he is, it doesn't necessarily mean that he and Lex will be mates or even that Lex is going to come out right away. It could take Lex quite a while to understand and accept his sexuality. And remember, Brooklyn went through two major crushes and one minor attempt at a date before finding love, as well as who knows how many possible flirtations before his timedancing brought him to Katana. No reason Lex wouldn't have a few romantic failures before meeting the love of his life too. Brooklyn I pretty much covered above. And "Bad Guys happening" is kind of compressing things down a bit. "Bad Guys" was planned as a potential spin-off TV series, so it's hardly done forever and we still don't really know what the last two issues have in store for the newly formed team.

Similarly, I don't think the future is quite as wide open as you seem to see it as. There are a fair number of known events we haven't seen yet in just the main story (putting aside things we know will happen in "Timedancer," "Pendragon," "Dark Ages," "2198," "New Olympians," any future installments of "Bad Guys," and any other spin-offs that might come to be). Aside from the future events for Elisa and Goliath I already mentioned, we know that Coldstone and Coldfire rejoin the clan at some point (not necessarily during "Clan Building" though it may happen). We know that Broadway and Angela will have three children and Brooklyn and Katana will have at least two. Greg mentioned many years ago that Elisa's parents would be accepting of her relationship with Goliath (as would Beth, I imagine), but Derek will have a problem with it. We know that, if all goes well, Maggie will give birth at some point in the future. We know numerous things that will have to happen before 2198 because of the way the world is in the series of that name. So Greg hasn't covered everything he's revealed about "Gargoyles" over the past decade or so in just these twelve issues.

Given the choice, I'd rather find out what happens next through a new comic or TV show or some other storytelling medium. But I don't relish the idea of waiting years or decades to find out more of what happens. I can live without knowing how it all ends, but I'd certain;y rather Greg reveal what he's been planning than keep waiting in hopes that a new venue for the stories will come along if that possibility starts to seem progressively less likely.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

VITAL INFORMATION has anybody noticed, that with th ending of CLAN BUILDING, various side stories of Gregs Garg Universe HE HAS REVEALED will, ergh, happen??

Let me count it:

- Elisa and that big guy comming together
- Lex, ergh, meeting Amp?? (you know... his... comming... out and stuff... uh... probably from what we suppose to know...)
- Timedancer, Katana, Nashville, egg and Fu Dog being revealed
- Bad Guys happening

So, what's left??

We know minor things. The oh-so-hush-hush-timeline-clues nobody could figure out in a hundred years, the Ultra Pack and Merlin. That's it!! After the conclusion of the CLAN BUILDING arc, there's LOTS AND LOTS of unspoiled, new stuff going to happen!! I mean, we really do know f**k about this!! All Greg has revealed to us (or most), did happen in a few comic issues, and now we're there and he's got all his aces in his sleeve (I'm sure). I'll be more excited for what comes after Clan Building, than for the, ugh, revelation of what was revealed earlier.

So what's gonna happen after CB?

Sure - the, now grown clan will be a bit characterised, with a lot of integration problems, I'm sure. But after that??


Thanks for the links, Brigadoon Traveller! This was the most interesting line for me: "What Weisman does give a damn about is making sure his project works to his specifications, and by publishing through an indie publisher like SLG, he'll retain the rights to "Progeny" and be able to dictate a few terms if the property makes it to the small screen."

I was wondering if this was a given or not with SLG. So with Mecha-Nation and Progeny, Greg will be immune from any licensing problems in the future since he'll own the properties (with, apparently, Guler, Cook, and Galloway). Also, regarding Progeny: "I wrote it all down, took copious notes and have a comic book universe that goes back thousands of years and into the future a few hundred and has all these heroes." Heh, does that sound familiar.

Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]

Do we have any idea at all when clanbuild vol 2 and and the bg book will be out? Any genearal date at all?

Wow, miss a weekend and you miss a lot.

Happy belated birthday to Greg Weisman!

Coco as Una's second> There is a thin silver lining in the gray cloud at the end of the comics. Greg became a lot less forthcoming with revelations when the comic was announced, but now that its over (for now) he may be a little more open to answering questions. Of course I'd rather have the awesomeness that is the comics, but I'm trying to look at the bright side.

Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]

Michelmas is also the day that both Macbeth and King Arthur were crowned; (acording to issue #8 that is).

Found an interview with Greg about his new SLG titles; Progeny and Mecha-Nation. Looking forward to these two.

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2008/09/25/greg-weisman-on-the-future-of-gargoyles-and-spider-mans-a-list-rogues/ (part one)

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2008/09/26/greg-weisman-talks-up-his-new-comic-series-progeny-and-mecha-nation/ (part two)

Brigadoon Traveller

Chip> Ah, I see.

Haven't watched the Avalon eps for some time.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

KingCobra> Michaelmas. It's a medieval holiday during which landowners, nobles etc. would basically do inventory. (I'm simplifying a bit there)

How it relates to Gargoyles: Constantine III mentioned it during Avalon part I.

Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
"A great many of those who 'debunk' traditional...values have in the background values of their own which they believe to be immune from the debunking process."--C.S. Lewis

Todd Jensen> happy what?!?
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Happy Michaelmas, everybody!
Todd Jensen

Just missed out, should have got up earler.
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

"Dean, did you pay any attention in history class?" "Yeah. Shot heard 'round the world, how bills become laws... " "That's not school; that's schoolhouse rock!" Sam & Dean from Supernatural

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.


Thanks, everyone, for all the birthday wishes. I had a great day. It's good to be 45.
Greg Weisman
"Uh... because my spider-sense was tingling?" -- The Spectacular Spider-Man (March 15, 2008)

"Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz."

Sixth. And good night!
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

Justin - [jlindley07 at gmail dot com]

Battle beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Man, thought Id get first but Ill be happy to take second. Its rare I stay up this late ^_^

And thanks for the great, in-depth disscussion last week, guys. I enjoyed it tons and tons.

<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

*blink blink*


Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]