Gorebash> Any chance that you are going to create "http://www.s8.org/spiderman/askgreg/" ?
The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Tony Tini
posted @ Sun, Oct 12, 2008 10:32:26 pm EDT from 70.15.84.29

Supermorff> Cheers, I'll take a look at the wiki now and see if there's anything I can help with.
Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn
posted @ Sun, Oct 12, 2008 2:16:55 pm EDT from 213.94.183.197

Came in late on this one, but...

I have both dvds (two of S1), the 4 S1 vhs tapes, my original S2 recordings and S1 recordings that were done just before S2 started, a VCD set of the entire series (3 episodes per disc), a DVD-r set of the entire series (24 discs - 22 for S1/2, and 2 for TGC), most of the tapes used to record Toon Disney episodes back in 02/03, and finally, a SVCD set of the original S1/2 recordings I did (1 episode per cd-r).

I also have these:

Goliath large Applause fig in box with mug
a school folder/binder thing
Gargoyles logo hat (extremely beat up now)
a Premier Gargoyles shirt
the Skybox cards
some applause danglers
All of the Marvel comic series, 1-6 of the Slave Labor series

That's about it. I did make 7 music videos in 2004. Still have those on my computer.
Nickerous - [nickerous at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Oct 12, 2008 1:14:43 pm EDT from 76.5.182.247

Supermorff: Whoops, sorry, forgot to tell you! And thanks :)
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Sun, Oct 12, 2008 12:59:03 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

lonerider> Sorry, typo. Your userpage is naturlly at User:Lonerider26, not 23
Supermorff
posted @ Sun, Oct 12, 2008 11:54:33 am EDT from 64.136.26.225

Algernon and lonerider26> I've just given you editing rights on GargWiki, which lets you edit pages, comment on talk pages, make your own user pages (which are at User:Algernon and User:Lonerider23 respectively), more or delete pages, etc etc. I had to guess (correctly) that your chosen user names were the same as the names you use in the Comment Room.

If anyone else wants to sign up, then YOU HAVE TO LET US KNOW WHAT USERNAME YOU'VE SIGNED UP WITH. The MediaWiki software we use (irritatingly) does not tell us administrators when someone has registered a new username. You can do this very easily by leaving us a message in this Comment Room.
Supermorff
posted @ Sun, Oct 12, 2008 11:29:43 am EDT from 64.136.26.225

You are all correct. His first name has yet to be mentioned in the series itself. I've modified both the Deadly Force and Jay Sato pages to reflect that. Thanks for the heads up.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Sun, Oct 12, 2008 10:16:23 am EDT from 70.230.150.190

Adam: I don't think it ever was mentioned in Bash, but, if you don't know, his first name is Jay. Jay Sato. It was mentioned in Deadly Force, but, beyond that, I haven't seen or heard anything about his first name. It's always just Dr. Sato.
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Sun, Oct 12, 2008 3:02:50 am EDT from 71.239.117.121

Adam> I have also read Bash many times, and I'm with you, I have never noticed, and can't find any mention of Dr. Sato's name in Bash. If it weren't for his page on GargWiki page I wouldn't have known his name was Jay.
Ricky
posted @ Sun, Oct 12, 2008 2:43:06 am EDT from 141.149.46.18

I was looking threw the episode guide on GargWiki, and in the episode "Deadly Force", it says that Dr. Sato's first name is revealed in "Bash". I have read "Bash" many times and I can't find anywhere in the comic were his first name is mentioned. Could you guys help me out?
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Oct 12, 2008 2:18:45 am EDT from 76.113.176.63

Lonerider> We are aware of the issue. Apparently, the software needs time to update the page. Hopefully, the problem will correct itself once we get the Features on a daily rotation. Give me a couple weeks on that.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Sun, Oct 12, 2008 1:40:51 am EDT from 70.230.150.190

Okay, weird. Every time I go to the Wiki page, the featured article is Shari, but after I click something and go back to the main page, it has a different feature. Is anyone else having this problem, or is it just my computer being stupid?
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Sat, Oct 11, 2008 10:26:36 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

Supermorff: I guess I'll sign up, if I could be of any help.
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Sat, Oct 11, 2008 10:24:43 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was asking if anyone thought Jason would turn heel. I just meant do you think if he'd be given a proposal to upgrade his body. Who knows? Maybe he'd do it to have a better chance in stopping John from doing something bad to the Gargoyles?

But I'm sure Jason would have to go through Xanatos for something like that, and if so, what would Xanatos want in return?
VoLpE - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
Meh...too lazy to think of one.
posted @ Sat, Oct 11, 2008 7:51:53 pm EDT from 65.14.83.34

Not me.

He's one of the good guys, and I guess he'll die one of the good guys. :(

Funny - I just watched HM today!! :D

Favourite part: After the Gargs fight the robbers in the subway, Elisa hugs Goliath affectionally, and calls him "my best friend". Goliath puches her away IMMEDIATELY after she says it!!
I never saw that. Very subtle scene. This is why I love this shwo - even if I tend to think "Well, it's not THAT full of stuff...", something jumps at me I never saw before.... :D
Brook
posted @ Sat, Oct 11, 2008 7:41:48 pm EDT from 84.191.237.143

Not me.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Sat, Oct 11, 2008 7:39:55 pm EDT from 70.230.150.190

*sigh* Once again, I got the names screwed up @_@ In my last comment, I meant Jason not John (LoL Don't hurt me) >_< Who thinks JASON will be approached w/ an opportunity to "upgrade"?
VoLpE - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
Meh...too lazy to think of one.
posted @ Sat, Oct 11, 2008 5:01:48 pm EDT from 65.14.83.34

Hey guys ^^ How's everyone doin'?

I was watching the "Hunter's Moon" arc and reading the comics again during my days off and I had a thought: who here thinks John's going to be approached w/ an "upgrade"?
VoLpE - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
Meh...too lazy to think of one.
posted @ Sat, Oct 11, 2008 4:57:26 pm EDT from 65.14.83.34

Supermoff> I wouldn't mind pitching in at the Gargwiki; though I'm not sure what I could do that someone else isn't infinitly more qualified to, but if you need an extra pair of hands just tell me where to sign up.
Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn
posted @ Sat, Oct 11, 2008 4:05:18 pm EDT from 86.41.199.232

Asatira> No problem. I enjoy it.

I suppose I'll take this chance to remind everyone that if anyone else feels like chipping in to GargWiki (even once or twice), then we're always happy to have some extra help. You just need to create a username, let us know what it is (e.g. by leaving us a message in this Comment Room) and then we'll get you started as soon as possible.

If you already knew all of that, then you should be helping out already! ;)
Supermorff
posted @ Sat, Oct 11, 2008 1:53:04 pm EDT from 64.136.26.225

Supermorff> Thanks for pulling all that together and updating the wiki.
Asatira
posted @ Sat, Oct 11, 2008 1:37:09 pm EDT from 68.190.20.172

Forget that last comment, I saw that you put it in there. I guess I overlooked it. My bad!
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Sat, Oct 11, 2008 1:15:18 am EDT from 71.239.117.121

Supermorff: Awesome! Should you add that they have 1 head though, in the characteristics section?
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Sat, Oct 11, 2008 1:04:42 am EDT from 71.239.117.121

I've just added a ton of information to the Space-Spawn page at GargWiki. Apart from one or two things, I think it now contains pretty much everything we know about the Space-Spawn.

Have a look: http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Space-Spawn
Supermorff
posted @ Sat, Oct 11, 2008 12:08:36 am EDT from 64.136.26.225

Supermorff: Thanks for the link! Now we know ;)

I'm willing to bet that the Space-Spawn have bodies, legs and arms. But beyond that...
They prolly have some type of internal structure, as well as a nervous system, but, again, this is all guessing...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 11:08:51 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

lonerider26> I just did some checking in the archives. Greg in fact confirmed that the Space-Spawn only have one head: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1366

I am almost entirely convinced that the Space-Spawn are corporeal (solid) entities, but that's as far as I'm willing to speculate in this case.
Supermorff
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 10:48:57 pm EDT from 64.136.26.225

Supermorf: I find it interesting as well. I just read it out of a whim, and found that particular line. Interesting to say the least...

I wonder if Space-Spawn have actual bodies, or if they're going to just be floating blobs of energy. I highly doubt the floating blob theory, though.
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 10:26:42 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

lonerider26> Possibly, although it might also refer to the fact that "Space-Spawn" is a collective noun. Since there is more than one of them, they collectively have more than one head. What IS interesting (and I think it would be a mistake to overlook this), is that Greg has revealed that they have HEADS. Period.

Brook> Regarding Dark Coon of Loon's question and Greg's answer, the word "organic" specifically means that the beings would be made of cardon and oxygen (although I understand it is not always used quite so technically). It's possible that Space-Spawn are made of other materials, and thus are not technically "organic".
Supermorff
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 10:13:17 pm EDT from 64.136.26.225

Looky what I found, quoted from an FAQ on AskGreg." DEMONA - For over a thousand years, Demona has plotted against humanity, blaming them for crimes against the gargoyle race. Now that a greater threat, the Space-Spawn, has reared it's many ugly heads..."

Many ugly heads? Am I reading the sentence wrong, or did it just say that the Space-Spawn have more than one head?
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 9:33:25 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

Thanks for pulling up those Greg responses, Brook.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 8:00:49 pm EDT from 70.230.150.190

Brook: AHAHAHA! Poor Goliath =P

I don't think they would be lava exactly, more like energy, like Matt described. Can't wait to see them, regardless of what they look like. Heck, I'm exited for Gargoyles 2198 period!
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 7:43:43 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

"Dark Coon of Loon writes...

About the Space-Spawn were they suppose to be an organic race or energy based like the Children of Oberon considering that they were born from a super nova?

Greg responds...

Neither."

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Puddle of Green Goo wins big time!)
Brook
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 7:26:06 pm EDT from 84.191.221.208

@ lonerider: Goliath: What are you... are you... MAGIC?? ONE OF PUCKS TRICKS??

Nono *sucks Goliath in, he vanishes with a pop*

Elisa: "Naughty Nono."

_______________________

Nokar = Gargamel!!
_______________________
Back to serious now.

I somehow still have the image that we might see something that is close to fire, or magma. Probably not a lava-creature, but something that would survive living inside of a burning star...
Hmm...

I mean - has Greg ever reffered to them as something more than a species?

"Anonymous writes...

Greg responds...

Some of it came from a natural bio-chemical affinity for certain types of technology. They were literally born (forged) to travel in space, for example.

Much of it came from the spoils of war and an efficient and frightening ability to mobilize a war industry to back their war machine.

Good question, though.

recorded on 08-29-03

On the question of Space-Spawn technology what exactly do you mean by "biochemical affinity"?

Greg responds...

It has to do with their biology, their anatomy. But I'm not gonna go into details at this time."
Brook
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 7:24:06 pm EDT from 84.191.221.208

Brooke: I remember that vacuum from Teletubbies! Loved that thing...
Gee, I wonder who would win ;)
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 7:16:31 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

@ Matt: Yeah, sorry - we were joking around a lot the last few days. :D
I realized you were reffering to my, urhm, "quite mind-numbing" re-written ending to TGC... so I couldn't spill I was just fooling. ;) ;)

I'm still baffled how I could come up with such a terific solution to TGC as Goliath saving Castaway and him realizing how wrong he was!!!
Most un-character thing ever...

Why not a smurf puddle o goo? A blue one with a white cap??
TELETUBBIES?? M&Ms???
THIS THING: http://www.dewaart.demon.nl/images/noo%5B1%5D.jpg ????????????????????
I'll photoshop Goliath fighting 'that' later...

Just reading GRAVITYS RAINBOW by Pynchon (yes, all 1000 something pages), and there's this scene where a huge imaginary nose-polype takes over London...

Hmmmmmmm...
Brook
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 7:12:19 pm EDT from 84.191.221.208

Brooke: Well, pbbt, if it's rated PG13, then no problem!

Matt: Maybe the Space-Spawn leader will be Papa Smurf ;) Oh, I can see it now...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 7:05:29 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

I noticed many of you doing it, but I am so silly. Until it was pointed out to me that we were not using logic or reason in this conversation, I didn't realize we were. I'm so stupid sometimes.

In that case, I think the Space-Spawn will look like Smurfs.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 7:01:41 pm EDT from 70.230.150.190

Seriously... you shouldn't see the film with 14....
There's a lot about sexuality, a lot that speaks to your subconsciousness and goes straight into your dreams and thoughts.

But if it is rated PG13, then do!! :D
Brook
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 7:00:19 pm EDT from 84.191.221.208

Brooke: Out of curiosity, what is 15/16? Is it like rated R for the U.S.? 'Cause if it is, then I can't see it (I'm 14)...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 6:58:11 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

I'm from europe, over here it's rated 15/16.

Trust me, you'll not be disappointed. The director (Ridley Scott) did BLADE RUNNER and GLADIATOR. Part 2 is done by James Cameron (Terminator 1 & 2, and most notably TITANIC ugh), Part 3 by David Fincher (Se7en, Ghit Club, The Game, Zodiac, Panic Room) and Part 4 is done by Jean Pierre Jenet (Amelie, City of lost children).

Whilst the sequels are all... different and, except for part 2, very controversial, part 1 is downright great.

Let me iknow what you thought of it. :D
Brook
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 6:38:57 pm EDT from 84.191.221.208

Brooke: Well, then I better go rent it! Wait... What's it rated?
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 6:26:21 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

@ Lonerider. 2 is VERY different from 1!! It is also good, as far as I can remember no skin ripping. LOL But there are a lot of really grotesque things going on. I donn't want to spoil anything, really. The film has got a very interresting sexual subtext I guess I'm not able to talk about here, but it is mainly a very good looking, very thrilling, dark and atmospheric thriller. There are several parts where my jaw dropped down, and from the thousands of films I've seen over the years, I recall only a few that affected me as much as this.
The cast is also brilliant, including John Hurt in one of his most memorable performances!!
Brook
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 5:59:33 pm EDT from 84.191.221.208

The Space-Spawn may not be entirely 'scientific'. We have the Children of Oberon, who are made up of magic energy. Or, maybe they are. If you take the raw energy given off from an exploding star, the as-of-yet-unknown basic components of life-creating soup, and ANY source of energy, you have the potential for a living thing. Maybe they drifted toward some planet, maybe they evolved rapidly, who knows? I have a rough idea of what they might look like, but I'm probably wrong. Let's watch Greg surprise us with something truely bizare.
Grey Wolf
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 5:49:07 pm EDT from 76.123.23.235

Brooke: Doesn't the alien rip your skin off, or something similar? That's what it looked like when I watched the trailer for the second one. And no problem :)
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 5:25:59 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

Greg: Thanks for the article link :)
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 3:59:09 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

Personally I think insect like aliens have been done to death in tv and movies, I'd like to see something more novel for the Space-Spawn.
Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 3:05:58 pm EDT from 86.41.198.254

@ Adam: You pretty much nailed it: LIKE in Starship Troopers. These kinda aliens already exist.

I doubt Greg would take something that we've already seen in some way - then there'd be no point in hiding it.

@ Matt: Silicon would be... weird... Crystaline lifeforms would be quite interresting. :)
Brook
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 2:41:18 pm EDT from 84.191.222.233

Algernon- you're right. I had forgotten about the founders.

How about this for the space-space. Bug like aliens, but instead of one type of bug, several types that do different jobs, like in Starship Troopers. One bug for infantry, one for artillery, one for command, and even one for starship (kinda like the Vong and Killiks in Star Wars).
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 2:18:52 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Adam> "you are right about Star Trek having humanoid aliens. They tried to explain that in a two part episode of The Next Generation. However, even in the expanded universe of Star Trek, I can not remember ever reading about a non humanoid alien"

Actually there are a couple of non-humanoid aliens in the Star Trek universe, you just rarely see them onscreen for budgetary reasons. One example being the Founders of the Dominion, who despite being a race of gelatinous shape-shifters with a fanatic fear and hatred of humanoid life forms, seem to spend 98% of their screen time in humanoid form.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Non-humanoid_species
Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 12:52:38 pm EDT from 86.41.217.208

Matt> I don't know that any of us are astronomers or astrobiologists or xenobiologists or whatever you would term someone who might have the knowledge to make an educated guess at what sort of lifeforms might be created by a supernova. Since it sounds like the space-spawn are something higher on the food chain than primitive single celled organisms, I'm guessing that the real scientific answer is that no kind of life that complex could be created from a supernova, assuming that any life could be created that way. (I don't claim to know if it can or not.) The answer to what kind of creature might be able to survive in outer space unaided might be the same. I don't know. "Gargoyles" isn't so much about making unassailably logical and scientific explanations for fantastic things as putting in just enough science and rational explanation that you believe all the other stuff even if it doesn't quite add up. My point is, we know so little about the space-spawn and what they might look like in order to be what we so far know them to be that it's way too early to be shooting down anyone's ideas. I don't really think the space-spawn will look like Giger aliens, if only because it's been done and re-done already. I'm just saying that, lacking any better insight into how they might look, my brain comes up with something akin to a Giger alien when I imagine them. It's more of a placeholder than anything.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 12:07:43 pm EDT from 146.115.115.33

Lava creature? It'd be interesting if they had a resemblence to Pyron from Darkstalkers.
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 12:02:49 pm EDT from 69.14.122.91

Brook> I'll admit that some sort of "lava creature" isn't something I'd considered. Maybe some sort of silicon-based lifeform. Maybe they are like crystals or something. I dunno.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 9:06:07 am EDT from 70.230.150.190

@ lonerider: Sorry, I mess these avatr pics up... :S

@ Todd & lonerider: I encourage you to watch at least the first film. It is one of the best films I've ever seen, regardless of genre, country or theme, it is one of the most outstanding films in history!!

Oh, and the alien is really, really, REALLY scary.

@ Matt: I've not been aware of that... Have we already discussed the possibility of it being a sort of Lava-creature?

VORLONS are also a good call. I liked those, albeit I missed the crucial episode, where the difference between Vorlones and shadows was described... The rest of the show (including the question: "Where the heck did the Vorlon councelman go?") didn't make much sense to me... Yea, I know, I failed... :(
Brook
posted @ Fri, Oct 10, 2008 8:01:36 am EDT from 84.191.242.189

<<But, if they are (possibly) how you described them, how would they be able to use machinery? Or communicate? Would they be able to do any of the above, or would it be simply telekinesis? If they are simply just 'energy', that is.>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorlons
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 10:52:02 pm EDT from 66.214.184.152

Litwolf> The name Space-Spawn is used in the episode "Sentinel", but the bit about their being born in an exploding star comes from the information Greg has given us about the Gargoyles: 2198 spinoff, specifically the pitch document itself. Therefore it is canon-in-training.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 10:23:23 pm EDT from 70.230.150.190

Matt - Ill have to watch Sentinel sometime soon as I dont remember this line about their creation. But we're just speculating. The pure energy idea might work but then again, Greg may fear to take something like that from Titan AE (geeze, now I suddenly want to watch that movie!)

But I do agree that, whatever their form is, Space-Spawn should not look even the slightest bit humoniod (unless, of course, they have some kind of morphing technology and then we're just in a world of trouble). The sentinel in Sentinel was already too human for my tastes, as far as aliens go. When I think aliens, I want to see something as crazy looking as possible and not humanoid in the slightest. Thats why I like Animorphs so much. You had Yeerks, Hork-Bajir, Taxxons, Andelites, all fantastically unique. Its far more fun that way!
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 10:17:32 pm EDT from 209.243.38.9

I don't know. I guess we'll see. Thats the thing about Gargoyles. Any answer only raises more questions. We don't know much about the Space-Spawn (and keep in mind my pure energy theory is just an idea of mine), but we do know that they do not seem to have followed a traditional evolution that the N'Kai probably did. They are likely to be very different, probably not even technically animals.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 10:09:47 pm EDT from 70.230.150.190

Matt: I'm aware, it was just an idea I had :) Nothing more, nothing less.

But, if they are (possibly) how you described them, how would they be able to use machinery? Or communicate? Would they be able to do any of the above, or would it be simply telekinesis? If they are simply just 'energy', that is.
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 8:53:50 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

Are any of you paying attention? They are called Space-Spawn for a reason. As Algernon pointed out (and was seemingly ignored) Greg has said that they were "born amidst the fury of an exploding star". They are going to be very different from anything you guys have mentioned (reptiles, insects, Giger aliens, etc). Maybe they will be pure energy like the aliens from "Titan A.E." maybe they'll be something else. But it doesn't sound like they are going to have much in common with animals.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 8:40:59 pm EDT from 70.230.150.190

Demonskrye: Ah, enlightenment :) I still need to see those movies...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 8:09:18 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

I saw the Space Spawn as something similar to the Aliens in the book war of the worlds. Just really a brain but using an organic looking technology
Woods
"But them pussycats is quick" Mrs. Lovett
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 7:54:18 pm EDT from 192.101.250.250

Yeah essentially "Giger alien" is a shorter way saying "the alien from the "Alien" films, since Giger did the designs for them.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 7:49:40 pm EDT from 146.115.115.33

Tod: Here's what I found out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giger%27s_Alien

I think that's what they meant. Otherwise, I'm absolutely clueless...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 7:08:36 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

Todd: I haven't the slightest idea, I was hoping someone could explain (?)
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 7:05:42 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

What's a Giger alien?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 6:56:08 pm EDT from 4.244.210.11

Brooke: Were you referring to me? I'm certainly not Rebel =P

TGC: I don't think they were absolutely terrible, but they were a let down from the first and second seasons. There weren't too many I liked though, like To Serve Mankind.
"Egon Pax, Egon Pax..." That still haunts me, to this day...
The Dying of the Light was a good episode though :) Very nice plot, and it's nice to see an episode where Hudson is the main focus. The old guy needs some love too ;)
lonerider26
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 6:54:47 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

@ Rebel: That's cool, even if it's just a sketch. :D

Yeah, I guess the goo thing is going to remain a creative demon... Although, as we've just heard, they were quite popular in Star Trek. OK OK, joking.

To the GIGER comments: I did not mean EXACTLY like a Giger hi-detailed monster, but something very dark and otherworldly and just... weird and stylish and haunting at the same time. Something different. Something that really takes it a step further.

Or they all just look like Lex or one of the NOs. ;) At least we can rule little green bald men with big eyes out...
On the other hand - with N. looking like one of the easter-island heads... is there a possibillity to potentially link the SS to something we've already seen??
Brook
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 6:20:54 pm EDT from 84.191.190.95

Adam> In the original series of Star Trek, the aliens were either obviously a human in makeup/a suit or amorphous blobs (both of which being easy to make and work with at the time). In the animated series, they had a bit more leeway, and we see Caitians at least have digitigrade instead of plantigrade legs. Star Wars showed us a lot more nonhumanoid aliens, but those were all in the background. In both cases, most still revolve around the upright, one head, two arms, two legs template.

Your suggestion sounds like the buggers from Ender's Game (author Orson Scott Card). When most people think of the truly alien, they liken it to insects most often, it seems. Not sure if it's the extra limbs/eyes, having the skeleton on the outside, utter lack of expression and visible emotion, or what, but human beings have a huge problem anthropomorphizing insects and arachnids. Even reptiles are easier. This may or may not have been some of the motivation behind one of the new mutates being modeled on an ant lion. Whether the Space Spawn will be insectile, I don't know.

I have no idea at this point, so I'm not even going to guess.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 5:39:22 pm EDT from 71.56.36.35

When I first envisioned the Space-Spawn, I imagined them to look something like this: http://lonerider26.deviantart.com/art/Space-Spawn-character-100273768

They would be about 8 ft, or higher. Have large, almost snake-like heads, either slits or beady type eyes, strange looking body, long arms and legs, three toes on both the hands and feet, and some type of tail. That's what I thought, anyway... I can't really see them looking like goo, but I can see them looking like the 'little green men from Mars'. Maybe...
lonerider26
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 5:22:58 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

Demonskrye- you are right about Star Trek having humanoid aliens. They tried to explain that in a two part episode of The Next Generation. However, even in the expanded universe of Star Trek, I can not remember ever reading about a non humanoid alien (although I maybe wrong).
Star Wars, however, has a number of non humanoid aliens. A few have been seen in the movies and many more in the expanded universe (check out the Dark Nest trilogy). Most of them are of the "bug" variety.
As for the space-spawn, I think of them as a bug species with a collective hive mind.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 4:34:09 pm EDT from 76.113.176.63

I forgot to mention one other element which will likely influence the design of the space-spawn: the need for an artist to draw them multiple times while keeping their look reasonably consistent. Have you ever tried drawing a Giger alien? Have you ever tried drawing a Giger alien multiple times from varying angles and making it look like the same creature? Have you ever tried drawing several Giger aliens multiple times for a comic that comes out every two to twelve months? And animation? Forget it.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 3:47:55 pm EDT from 146.115.115.33

...and all the poins below make the green-puddle-of-goo-theory even more accurate!! :D
Could an aspiring illustrator please draw a picture of this? XD
(Another creative demoin: what if TGC decided to replace the Quarrymen with the before mentioned gree-goo-Space-Spawn?? "Oh, that puddle's gotta hammer!!" - BRILLIANT XD )

On a side note - has somebody received a mail from the blue mug production team yet??
Brook
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 2:34:46 pm EDT from 84.191.190.95

Demonskrye> I'd be very surprised indeed if the Space-Spawn ended up being humanoid, considering what we know of their origins. Being "born amidst the fury of an exploding star", I'd imagine they'd be specifically adapted for survival in the depths of space; Based on that I'd imagine that they wouldn't even have legs, yet alone a humanoid body form.

They probably wouldn't have anything resembling verbal communication, sound being non-existent in space; other options include telepathy or a language based on bio-luminescence ala certain deep sea fish. Of course in the interests of not totally mind screwing the audience, they could be equipped with some kind of device for translating into recognisable speech.

Here's an interesting article on the kind of habitat the Space-Spawn might call home…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova_remnant
Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 2:26:56 pm EDT from 149.157.1.180

@ Demonskrye: You're right about Disney. That's why I never trust film rumours, until they're made. At some stage of prodction, somebody might think it is a good idea to have BATMAN dress up i a skimask and carrying a baseball bat, and then somebody else sees it and dumps the entire script. :(

On the Alien matter - I'm REALLY interrested to see this. A lot.

But I'd love if in some parody they'd either look like Kong and Kodos or a puddle of green goo.
The idea that earth is being taken over by puddles of green goo is just priceless to me. If they'd done an 80s Eddie Murphy movie with this plot, it would have been epic by now. lol

Anybody into a HR Giger like Alien? Not exactly, but something dark, sinister and scary looking?
Brook
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 12:34:30 pm EDT from 84.191.194.30

Space-Spawn> I keep going back to the "Alien" aliens, which probably isn't helping anything. But with virtually no information on what they look like, it's hard not to fall back on something familiar. What I want to see is something a good deal less humanoid than Nokkar. Not because they're "bad guys" but because they're aliens and aliens should look rather...well, alien. In part, I think "Star Wars" and to an even greater degree "Star Trek" have put us in the mindset that alien species are generally humanoid looking: bipdal, upright, recognizable facial features, atc. Of course, some of this is also due to our natural impulse to assign human characteristics to pretty much everything. I think the space-spawn designs are going to have to hit a balance between looking like something that does not come from our world when "our world" in the "Gargoyles" universe is populated with gargoyles and magical shapeshifters and Loch Ness monsters and the like and being recogniable enough that their expressions and emotions are clear to us.

Litwolf> I think a problem that we fans have from time to time is thinking of Disney as this single big corporate hive-mind entity. "Disney doesn't care about 'Gargoyles.'" "Disney wanted to do the spin-offs." "Disney lost interest by the third season." And so on and so forth. Of course, the reality is that Disney is an enormous company with many different divisions responsible for different product and subdivisions within them and individual people at every level. So when we say that Disney was interested in possibly developing spin-offs of "Gargoyles," what we mean is that someone in Disney television who was higher up that Greg thought that a "Gargoyles" spin-off might have been a good idea. When you think about it that way, the idea that Greg was asked to come up with these spin-off ideas which were then not produced makes more sense. You have numerous people at different levels and positions in the company who have to approve an idea before it becomes reality and convincing one person higher up that you to support your idea does not guarantee that it will happen. Companies like this aren't static either, so you can be dealing with a boss who really loves your concept and fights for it with the higher-ups one day and find yourself stuck with someone who really doesn't get what you're doing and considers your work a very low priority the next. These factors could also help to explain how "Disney" went from being excited enough about "Gargoyles" to consider more shows based on the same concept to making the third season for less money and ultimately ending the show with it.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 10:48:21 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

@ Todd: Whilst I just posted a REALLY bad ending to TGC, I figured why not try to do something in character once?

The problem is, that with the rest being so NOT in character and continuity, it is really hard to do it. It is almost impossible to include Demona or ... well, everybody else is pretty much in jail or dead by now, most noticably Thailog. :C

I'd love to see a more "Hunters Moon"-esque ending to TGC, where it's not a "happy" ending, but sorts of a step forward... a progression both in terms of characters, twists and climax. I guess - and that shows what good a writer Greg IS - the only thing that could really live up to this potential would have been if TGC would have ended S3 with the TIMEDANCER EP we now get.
Reminds me how giddy I am about this. :)
But there's really nothing that comes to my mind that could have topped AotN - from THEM!! With what preceeded it, AotN stood out positively - but really, how could the ending be REALLY REALLY improved, with it being still a realisitc TGC EP??

I try to come up with something, but somehow, it's just easier to write a bad, chliched ending to hate than a good, revealatory and in character one everybody loves. *chuckles*
Brook
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 7:48:26 am EDT from 84.191.242.34

@ Matt: Wonder what that is - bring it on!! :D

To summarize why I love the show: I think foremost Greg has done a hell of a good job in writing both characters, situations and what is known as "story arcs" that still, after years, don't fail to appeal to me when I watch them. Leaving out some of the Avalon tour, where there were episods too random for me to really like, some playing out as the exact twin of an older AT-EP with different characters, every. single. episode. appealed to me in some way.
Not only did Greg write appealing, cool looking, thoughtful and intelligent characters, no, he also set them up in a world full of Shakesperean refferences, with VERY evil evildoers and pretty much a world to convince that they're not eating children. Culture clash and old literature in one show! Coupled with some adult themes, a rather dark approach to a "family" ( = clan) and social structure. Not to mention the adult twists of Fox getting pregnant, Lex being gay, Angela almost dying in Hunters Moon etc.
Oh yeah, and Hunters Moon is probably the single best episode I ever sa on any show!!

What I wanted to express with TGC is that I think it deserves every. little. bit. of criticism it gets. But on a big scale - we should lean back and look at it as what it is: an attempt to finish what has been begun, sadly failed, but still not the worst show on the screen ever. Although lacking a feel for the characters, non-chliched stories and mostly a POINT, the show still handled themes other shows never touch, and recalling my days when I watched TGC and what preceeded and came after it - the other stuff was still either on paar with TGC or worse. The only standout for me at that time was Bob Morane (Yellow Shadow is da MAN!!!!!!!!).
Not saying it was that good - well, Bob Morane certainly was - , but that TV lacked interresting shows.
What I enjoyed about it was not the same what I enjoyed about GARGOYLES. It lacked intelligence, it lacked matureity, it lacked good character development, it lacked continuity.

As for the Spin-offs... well... I guess this is more a "taste"/"thought" thingy than anything else. We can't even have an oppinnion - let alone bad guys - because we havn't seen any of this.

@ Space Spawn: UGH...

...

Nothing like Wings...
Todd sure's right about how I think they look... Bug like?
I somehow wish not to think about how they look... with Aliens, we've been so spoiled by both Star Trek and Star Wars... I can't recall the last time an Alien design really surprised me... Darth Maul?? ALIEN??
Brook
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 6:58:30 am EDT from 84.191.242.34

I initially imagined the Space-Spawn as looking vaguely like Cthulhu - though smaller and less sanity-blastingly horrific - since "Space-Spawn" sounds like something out of an H. P. Lovecraft story.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 6:34:24 am EDT from 4.244.210.219

With Greg's recent response to The Dark Knight I thought I'd share this video for anyone who's seen both The Dark Knight and the sitcom Fresh Prince Of Bel Air:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWz5h4or-yo
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 4:27:45 am EDT from 71.120.226.102

Poster: Thanks for the info on the Goliath Reading poster. I thought I was just crazy and couldn't find it anywhere, or possibly went insane and made it up in my mind. I could kick myself for not asking for the poster when it was taken down at my high school library. I think I will try to contact that lady about the posters.
Charisma82
"Dean, did you pay any attention in history class?" "Yeah. Shot heard 'round the world, how bills become laws... " "That's not school; that's schoolhouse rock!" Sam & Dean from Supernatural
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 2:22:32 am EDT from 64.13.117.74

Last week, I confirmed something important. I finally got haberno peppers to grow out of my backyard. I harvested over 12. :-) Now, I just need to stock up on lots of ice cream. I wonder what Goliath's reaction to haberno peppers would have been like.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Oct 9, 2008 12:29:35 am EDT from 98.20.209.85

lonerider26 > Out of curiosity, and since the topic of Gargoyles:2198 was brought up, what do you all think the Space-Spawn will look like?

Good question. I always pictured them being kind of bug like. Four legs, four arms, big eyes, wings that are for show rather than flight. 'Spawn' made me think bugs.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 11:49:50 pm EDT from 209.243.38.9

Anyway, I gave all the comments I could on the review and recommended that he check out volume 1 of Season 2.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 10:05:46 pm EDT from 71.120.226.102

Brook> I considered writing a very long post disagreeing with the many (MANY) things you've posted today, but figured it was kind of pointless. Suffice to say, I disagree with so many things you've said lately that I wouldn't even know where to start. Frankly, I'm amazed that as different as our opions are, we can still both claim to be fans of the same show. Hopefully, that speaks to the power of Gargoyles to draw in people with a wide range of expectations and desires. So, I suppose I'll just tell you that I'm glad you support Gargoyles, even if most of the time I feel you are missing most of what the series has to offer.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 8:58:52 pm EDT from 70.230.150.190

TGS> I have vague memories of viewing the episodes when they ran on ABC, and hearing about them now convinces me to never watch them again, for they would be horrible.

Bad Review> I just want to say, that while I, too, love anime, <i>Gargoyles</i> is better than a lot of anime I've seen.

Posters> Eee! That site has the Sandman ones! :D
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 8:55:06 pm EDT from 216.36.154.204

Out of curiosity, and since the topic of Gargoyles:2198 was brought up, what do you all think the Space-Spawn will look like?
lonerider26
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 8:54:41 pm EDT from 71.239.117.121

Litwolf : "and was dreaming of 2198 before it dropped the ball, for whatever the reason." As I recall, Greg said that CBS was interested in it, but then Disney merged with ABC, which pretty much nixed any deals with CBS.
Spen
"Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz."
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 8:12:34 pm EDT from 66.43.205.110

Wait, how about this:

Castaway is after the Gargoyles. After some mayor action, they fight.

Fight fight fight.

Fight some more.

They fight...

Goliath accidently shoves C over the edge of a building. C falls, "AAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaah...", Goliath dives after him and grabs him. C.: "LET ME GO!!" G.: "ALLRIGHT!" C.: "NO, wait... you saved me... why??" G.: Random blah about Gargoyles protect etc., C.: "I... I'm sorry, I didn't knew!" Land in front of a camera, where Castaway retells what happens and hails G as a hero. The rest of the bystanders chime in and all hail to G.

Yes.

Killing the Gargoyles at the end is pointless though - they could've smashed them right on Wyvern then.

I somehow like Elisa blowing up all of NY in a crazy manner - imagine Disney going "Ergh... so you're blowing up NY in one of our shows, yeah?? YEAH... interresting..."

We should do a contest of best re-written ending, best = crappiest!! :D
Brook
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 7:25:40 pm EDT from 84.191.253.73

I'd forgotten about that part in "Ransom" about how Doyle can so easily break into the Eyrie Building (just an ordinary human with ordinary high-tech), but that bothered me as well.

I found "Ransom" all the more disappointing because I thought that the mayoral election would have made a great seasonal arc (I was remembering the first season of "X-Men", with the arc about Senator Kelly running for president), and then Doyle gets exposed and arrested at the end of the episode, after which we hear nothing more about the election.

I'll agree with Rebel that the ending we might have gotten to "Gargoyles" could have been worse than "Angels in the Night". Imagine this:

Castaway kills all the gargoyles and is hailed by the city's populace as a hero. Just as the mayor is giving Castaway the key to the city (or whatever the appropriate honor would be), Elisa forces her way through the crowd and shoots Castaway through the heart several times.

Or, worse yet:

Instead of just shooting Castaway, Elisa seeks revenge after the gargoyles' deaths by teaming up with a terrorist organization and helping them blow up New York City. When the terrorist leader says to Elisa, "Not that I'm ungrateful for your help, but why are you betraying your own people?", Elisa says "They're not my people."
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 6:39:15 pm EDT from 4.244.212.186

Oh, TGC - I liked the basic ideas they had. They wanted to tell pretty straightforward tales about fascism and racism and growing up - but we seen it all before and it wasn't too well handled.

But there were good points in it. :)
Brook
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 6:23:32 pm EDT from 84.191.253.73

Demonskrye > Oh, I do realize that not all of the spinoffs would have gotten to see the light of day in a series of their own. I can see how easily they all could have been rolled into the main series (Hudson could have told stories of the Clan from before the Trio was born; Brooklyn could dance out for 40 seconds, dance back in with his family, and then spend an episode or two explaining what had happened; the Redempiton Squad could have made an appereance and then dissappeared just as quickly). But, as you said, Disney seemed pretty happy to do Bad Guys and was dreaming of 2198 before it dropped the ball, for whatever the reason. And, if those had done well, its possible Disney would have expanded with the others. Or its possible Disney would have said, "Yes, these are nice ideas but stick them in the main series and be done with it". All six getting produced might have been in Greg's wildest dreams but at least he was dreaming about it! ^_^

I didnt realize Disney was so handsoff with SLG. I guess thats a good thing because they let Greg W run the show.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 5:20:40 pm EDT from 209.243.38.9

TGC> I haven't seen the episode, so I can't say personally, but I've heard people complain in the past that Goliath's monologue in "Broadway Goes Hollywood" doesn't make a lot of sense because the episode is less about the potentially corrupting allure of showbiz than about Broadway trying to use the spotlight to tell the world about himself and his clan and the Quarrymen trying to use him to prove that gargoyles are evil. Or so I'm told.

Litwolf> I don't think most people are honestly down on the spin-offs. Everyone has there own particular favorites and the ones they aren't quite as excited about. That certainly includes me, but I'd still be happy to see any spin-off happen in any form. It is true that Greg developed the spin-off ideas in part because there was an interest at Disney in expanding upon the "Gargoyles" concept at one time. But I don't think that Greg developed six spin-offs because he expected six spin-offs to be produced. I think he wanted to give the higher-ups a bunch of choices to increase the chances that they would find something they liked. It was certainly a possibility that the show could have ended up spawning a spin-off. We know that "Bad Guys" got pretty far along in the pitch, "2198" was under serious consideration at one point, and I remember hearing that "Pendragon" was a possibility for a time. But all six of them actually getting produced was probably only going to happen in Greg's wildest dreams. It's not that I don't believe they would all make interesting shows or that Greg had enough material to keep them going. I just don't think Disney would have wanted to invest that heavily in the "Gargoyles" franchise all at once unless the show/s was/were doing outstandingly well. Greg has mentioned before that any spin-offs that didn't happen would have been folded into the main series or the approve spin-offs. ("2198" stories could have been told in "Timedancer," for example.) So Greg wasn't completely banking on DIsney agreeing to pick up every spin-off. Even if they had been pitched over time, the main series and any spin-offs that did happen would have needed to boast extraordinary rating for Disney to believe that the public was demanding more and more and more "Gargoyles."

As for the Bad Guys comics happening, I think that had very little to do with Disney and a lot to do with Slave Labor. Once SLG had the license, my understanding was that they were free to do whatever they wanted with it: once-a-year graphic novels, 12 comics a year, a new issue every week, whatever. All Disney did was approve the final product. I really doubt they were micromanaging the deal enough to even consider saying "I don't think you should be doing these spin-off because they probably won't make as much money. Why don't you just stick with the main book?" Their thinking was probably more along the lines of "Did the check from SLG clear? OK then, let's review this and get it approved." I could be wrong, but I though Disney got a flat fee from SLG for each license anyways, meaning they wouldn't get any more money from "Bad Guys."
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 5:01:48 pm EDT from 146.115.115.33

Brook > Okay, I can see where you got your thoughts for each spinoff series. I saw them like this:

TimeDancer - Brooklyn gets to step into his own strength! Go him! *totally fan girls*
Dark Ages - More of life among a big Clan; new history to play with; more seeing Iago mess with Othello
2198 - whoa, into the future we go
New Olympians - *sighs happily* Another romantic tale to enjoy! <3 (Yeah, Im a hopeless romantic)
Pendragon - Yeah, I guess I am a bit curious to see where Griff and the King go
Bad Guys - Other than Yama, I dont care about any of these guys

My problem with my comparisons of TGC to any other cartoon is that my cartoon knowledge is very limited. I watched cartoons because they make me laugh; I watch Gargoyles because I care about the characters and the plot. And I dont think its too fair to compare Gargoyles to Pokemon. Pokemon is an anime; an anime that started off pretty strong. But with every season, it got worse and worse. I would number them:
1) Gargoyles Season 1
2) Gargoyles Season 2
3) Pokemon Season 1
4) Pokemon Season 2
5) Pokemon Season 3
6) TGC
7) Every other Pokemon season
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 4:54:07 pm EDT from 209.243.38.9

Gargoyles Read Poster > I checked eBay but there are no Gargoyles posters whatsoever. I even did a GoogleImage search just to try and find a picture of the reading poster but no such luck. If anyone has the poster or a picture of the poster, could you link a picture of the poster? Im really curious to see what it looked like.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 4:46:04 pm EDT from 209.243.38.9

@ King Cobra: That SAW review is spot on!! I saw that film on a filmfest and was REALLY PUMPED for it, and then it just dragged and dragged and the characters got flatter and the actions got less and less realistic and midthrough, I just looked at the nice images here and there.

@ Litwolf: Yeah, I agree - there's a LOT of it BAD, even WORSE THAN BAD!!!!!! But still, thanks to a few decent points, I give it that rating. I mean c'mon, the series isn't "BALU" - it is bad, but bad on a high level. It's not as good as the main series or Bob Morane, but still not as bad as some other series are - do I HAVE to mention POKEMON??
Brook
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 4:42:04 pm EDT from 84.191.253.73

I forgot that, with the Promo reel and all.... you gotta point...

But still, NO and Pendragon and too off for my taste, too less related to it. Might be good stories and all, but I don't know if I would watch, follow and enjoy them.
TIMEDANCER I would watch for Brooklyn, but I doubt that the entire series would be of higher quality than the Avalon tour. Yet, who knows what sirection it might have taken, right??

Dark Ages never really interrested me. It MIGHT interrest me if it headed for a more adult and dark approach of the idea, but... somehow... nah...

Now BAD GUYS and 2198 interrest me, because with BAD GUYS we really get into the heads of the guys we despised, and 2198 would have re-introduced Demona, Brooklyn, Macbeth, Cyberlex and a whole new set of KICKbleep characters who would have rocked big time!! I'm not a fan of space spawns getting eggs and Gargoyes Nations and all - but DAMN, that would have been one action packed, tight knot series.

I saw it like this:

BAD GUYS - character development,
TIMEDANCER - more dark and individual (hopefully)
PENDRAGON - more literature refferences
2198 - ACTION!!!!!!!!!! AND Sequel to the main series!! YAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!
DARK AGES - character Background
New Olympians - Whatever.
Brook
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 4:38:57 pm EDT from 84.191.253.73

Brook "TGC: GET. OVER. IT!! The show IS decent. It's got one or two or threee REALLY bad episodes, and a lot of scenes that were cliche or badly written, but it was OK."

See, I actually think the exact opposite. That the show was bad, really bad, with one or two semi-good episodes (those being The Dying Of The Light/Hudson's episode and Seeing Isn't Believing/New Olympus episode). Ive watched Brooklyn's episode from time to time (because he is my favorite character) but he acts so immature, I cant stand it. TGC just make me cringe; I cant help it.

Spinoffs > I dont know why you guys are putting down all the spinoffs. Greg W thought them up because Disney asked him to; because they thought they could make a lot of money off expanding the Gargoyles 'verse. They had plans for it and then whatever happened, happened, and we got TGC instead. Obviously, some of the spinoffs may have been more profitable (for lack of a better word) than others. Like, from just reading the summaries of each spinoff, I was far more interested in seein TimeDancer, Dark Ages, and New Olympus than Bad Guys and 2198.

If Gargoyles had kept going, I dont doubt at all that Greg W would have brought these spinoffs to life. Slowly, one by one. He could have gently introduced each spinoff in the main series (such as Griff and Authur popping in for the Stone of Destiny or how Brooklyn is gonna do his brief TimeDance in the last few comics). Everyone watching Gargoyles would go, "Hmm, I wonder what the story behind that is?" Then they would be overjoyed when they realized a whole other series has been created to answer their question.

Yes, some spinoffs flop but some do really well. Angel was a very succsesful spinoff from Buffy (in fact, when they were in their last years, I was far more interested in Angel's story than in Buffy's; that Slayer really bugged me after a while). I think the Gargoyle spinoffs had/have a far brighter future than you give them credit for. If they didnt, we wouldnt have the Bad Guys comics. Disney would have simply said, "No, your spinoffs are not gonna bring in the money we want. You, Greg W, must focus on the main series." Instead, they gave him a chance to tell one of the spinoffs. And Greg even had plans for Dark Ages, before the plug was pulled. They had a chance, a very good chance in my view.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 4:25:31 pm EDT from 209.243.38.9

Well I don't really have anything to say about TGC, good or bad. I'm not even sure I've seen any of them all the way through (except "The Journey", which I tracked down on YouTube a while back). So, instead of that I think I'll try and redirect the conversation a bit.

When I woke up this morning I had a weird, Gargoyles-related thought. In the ancient past when the Gargoyles live action movie was still a distinct possibility, one of the ideas was to have Othello survive the Wyvern Masscre with the others and sleep frozen in stone for a thousand years. He'd die during the course of the first movie, so that they could resurrect him as Coldstone for the sequel. At least, that's if my memory isn't playing tricks on me.

So I was wondering: if, in the series, Othello, Desdemona and/or Iago had woken up in modern-night Manhattan with the other Wyvern survivors, they probably would have taken on names based on New York landmarks or locations. has this been asked before? What names do people think they might have chosen for themselves?
Supermorff
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 4:22:34 pm EDT from 64.136.26.225

Brook> "HUGHE HUGHE DISNEY CENTERED OT: I just posted a link to CONFUSED MATTHEW and one of his priceless, intelligent and spot on reviews.

Guess what: he reviewed the Lion King!! Hooray, I hated it as a kid and hate it still!! :D"

Huh, and I just watched said review, (also the 'Saw' review, and ST: Voyager review) and it's kind of oddly ironic that you mentioned it. Wow.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 4:07:25 pm EDT from 68.75.27.201

Yeah - it also threw me off, I was like "Wait, they get Alex so Doyle gets elected and... oh. Has got a lot of power and money! OK!"

Still, from a writers point of view, this is very unclear - the term should be POWER - not money. As far as I know, politicians like him own more than just few money

HUGHE HUGHE DISNEY CENTERED OT: I just posted a link to CONFUSED MATTHEW and one of his priceless, intelligent and spot on reviews.

Guess what: he reviewed the Lion King!! Hooray, I hated it as a kid and hate it still!! :D

So, for everybody else, probably donÄt watch it, or watch it to try to understand me and Matthew - but this is just damn good criticism he's doing!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOwWzFOvCq8
Brook
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 3:02:25 pm EDT from 84.191.253.73

Brook> "Oh I wanted to add - the opening monologue could be seen as a comment on how Doyle tried to gain power and money as the next mayor - not on how they take in Alex to bribe Xanatos."

You've got a point there. I watch the episode (I find it one of the more tolerable EPs of TGC, despite its' flaws, so sue me.) and when Goliath does his narration, my response is always 'what the hell is he talking about? When does money play into it?'
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 2:55:30 pm EDT from 68.75.27.201

Oh I wanted to add - the opening monologue could be seen as a comment on how Doyle tried to gain power and money as the next mayor - not on how they take in Alex to bribe Xanatos.
Brook
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 2:50:53 pm EDT from 84.191.253.73

I'm just watching (=skipping through) ransom.

I like the beginning. OK - ergh, why does Lex run for the toy, whilst he could just exit? Why does he sit next to it, whilst he could have hid next to... yeah, forget it...

I like the idea of the aspiring mayor trying to gain votes by blaming Gargoyles!! Good call on right wing politics.
Then Elisa runs up and makes a pointless line.
Lex makes his big entrance and Elisa delivers another pointless line ("The streets are full of Gargoyles bashers!" Oh, zomfg!! :O)

Somehow I'm turned off at how the EP plays down like this Mel Gibson film. And annoyed of Fox...
Brooklyn and Broadway make a cool appearance, then Lex is being locked n a plate (Ugh).

The last third has some really nice action. Yay!!! :D

The cover up of Doyle is a bit lame I love Brooklyns final lines here. That Shot of him and Angela is a bit irritating though. Was dialogue cut out there??

I still think this is decent. Nothing as bad as a Bronx tale.
Brook
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 2:49:45 pm EDT from 84.191.253.73

Haha, sorry for the language. Got carried away.

TGC: Sure - the characters were empty shells most of the time. OK - you could label Fox emotionally shocked and therefore unable to stop crying, but - man, she's a tough girl. She's an ex mercenary and we know what happenned with her during Halloween.

There were tons of this. Broadway was almost completely unlikeable during the whole arc, and Elisa was... well... how do you put it?? "Side attraction"??

Still, it was above average shows - both animation, 'some' characters (Castaway is flat but a REALLY BAD guy!!!) and Atmosphere kept me watching, and few EPs turned out quite good.

Still, with Gargoyles being 9.2 in my rating, 6.5 is a huge drop - keep that in mind.

I guess the library of that guy had a Bootleg of TGC on DVD he watched too. lol
Brook
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 2:19:46 pm EDT from 84.191.253.73

Brook> Careful with the language. This is a PG forum.

Algernon> I agree with you about 'Ransom'. What also bugged me about the episode is the error I pointed out in my last post.

Not to mention how horribly out of character Fox was. I thought she was an ex-merc; why does she spend the episode doing NOTHING but crying?!
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 2:00:14 pm EDT from 68.75.27.201

Adam> I found the whole premesis of "Ransom" a bit hard to swallow; We're supposed to belive that four guys in a helicopter where able to do what the full mystical might of Oberon could not? The whole episode felt like a poor man's "The Gathering".
Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 1:33:56 pm EDT from 149.157.1.180

Personally, I would LOVE it if all the spin-offs had managed to become their own cartoon series. But, I just never felt that it was a terribly realistic possibility. I don't think that the Gargoyles Universe and the "Disney Universe" could have ever really "fit" together cohesively. Most of Disney's stuff is just too lighthearted and fanciful.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 1:27:00 pm EDT from 76.165.35.118

@ Anonymous: I agree. Totally.

But they had nice moments!! Angels of the Night is a cool Episode. So his Hudsons and Brooklyns EP, although Brooklyn is portrayed as a kid raher than the young man we see during Hunters Moon.

I hate how the Illuminaty was shown. How Goliath was sudeenly taken into court - WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT EPISODE??

But still, the series was OK. I've witnessed so much garbage over the years, especially with kids shows - TGC is mediocre, but still has its moments and good characters. OK, except for how Angela and Fox were suddenly empty shells of former incarnations... :S

I'd rate the series 6.5. It's still bad, but more allright than the people who hate the whole show with all of their guts.

OH - i FORGOT something!!

The talk ith the Spin-offs.
REBEL or whoever it was - thank you so much. You expressed my concerns about the Spin offs in a really good way!!
Although I love Gargoyles and I think gregs a great writer, a full blown series of Timedancer, Pendragon or New Olympians would have been way too much!!
I still want tio see Timedancer cause I love Brooklyns character and cause I want to see how Greg's doing it, but I wouldn't want to see it as a full blown show, or as big as the AValon tour - still the weakest part of the whole GARGOYLES output IMHO (they had good EPs there, but also rather bad EP-fillers).

BAD GUYS could work - the comic is great. But I'm happy to see it in a mini-series comicbook way. The B&W style adds so much to it... It really feels like a comic, not a tv show gone to comic.

2198 I - and I hope everybody encourages Greg - really really REALLY want to see at one point where we leave Gargoyles, i.e. after Goliaths death. I'd end the show there and proceed over to 2198 then.

DARK AGES is something I havn't made my mind up about yet. There are stories to tell, but it would feel like a re-hash to me. We allready KNOW what IS going to happen in the end. I'd love to see a few EPs being somehow tied to the next season of Gargoyles comics though.

Concluding - I'd drop NO and Pendragon, show 6-8 EPs of TIMEDANCER in the normal arc (telling here and there what happenned in flashbacks of Brooklyn during the main series, catching him again in 2198), integrate some of Dark Ages, do BAD GUYS as a mini series (might evolve, who knows??) and go with Gargoyles up until Goliaths death, probably do some more shows to show the aftermath (12 EPs??) and then head to 2198 and burn the goddamn house down with that!! :D
Brook
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 1:09:14 pm EDT from 84.191.221.216

I kinda liked TGC episode "Ransom". Not how Fox acted after Alexander was kidnapped, but how someone would use a subject like Gargoyles for political gain. Reminds me of the KKK when they had political power in the US.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 12:50:17 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Antiyonder here, just typing on a library computer.

Brook> TGC had it's good points, but wasn't well done in general. If you like it, that's cool.

1. But to paraphrase a review from The Gargoyles Fansite, one problem in particular was Generations. It was a poor goyle's version of The Reckoning, minus the shock of Demona saving Angela. As Todd points out, the episode lacks a human character that proves Demona wrong.

2. Despite Goliath's speech in The Ransom, the kidnapper's motivation was for political reason, not profit.

3. Runaways: This episode ignores development on Brooklyn's status as a maturing Gargoyle. He lead the clan during Goliath's absence in The Avalon World Tour, and yet we have Goliath saying that he'll make a good leader someday.

4. Seeing Isn't Believing: It's mentioned that Sevarius is arrested, yet we saw no arrest, nor did we see anything that he could be proven guilty of.

5. Even if Margot viewed The Quarreymen as a necessary evil, she should have been a little less trusting of Castaway in Angels Of The Night.
Anonymous
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 12:43:47 pm EDT from 66.225.14.190

TGC: GET. OVER. IT!!

The show IS decent. It's got one or two or threee REALLY bad episodes, and a lot of scenes that were cliche or badly written, but it was OK.

It wasn't OK to leave continuity to the wolfes and wrap up every storyline there was in a half-a$$ed manner. It wasn't pleasing, it wasn't well done - it was just annoying. "Genesis undone"? Irx!!!

Leaving Demona and the G/E relationship out was a downer too. But the show was overall well done. And the EP of Hudson is still one of the best they ever did. I loved that Greg took over the dialogue of him and JR. :)

The review: Well, don't let us talk about annoying fans. XD
But - yeah - GARGOYLES IS a hell of a dark show.
I thought his criticism annoying. He's talking about the SHOW!! NOT THE FANS!! I'm not one of the guys going to the convention, don't dress up as a gargoyle, don't write fanfiction etc. but YOU LEAVE THE FANS OUT!!! THIS IS BAD JOURNALISM!! I mean, when I review a record, I never go on about how sh!t the guys are who listen to this. IT'S UNREASONABLE!! Then he talks about japanese shows - WHAT IS A TOTAL DIFFERENT THING!!

And then he comes up with better cartoons... Although I agree with Batman (darkest cartoon ever), he's just talking about how other things are.

I never go like "This record is bad, like, listen to the Beatles!!" and then he goes on about Megatron and Justice League... oh man...

Fun thing is: he's just a nerd. And all he's saying is just proving how much of a nerd he is, spending his time doing youtube videos bragging about how bad the fans of a certain show are, just to piss them off!!!

If he'd be like CONFUSED MATTHEW, he'd be FUNNY!! and REASONABLE!! and would actually talk about details he disliked and things that were done good/bad.
Oh yeah - check this guy out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mllRWv6uSXA
BRILLIANT!!
Anyways, I don't see how somebody should watch this who a.) doesn't know the guy and b.) wants to get information on the show.
Brook
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 12:29:54 pm EDT from 84.191.188.70

Err, sorry for the triple. That's KathArine Fronk, with an A. Wouldn't be nice to misspell her name.
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 10:37:31 am EDT from 69.112.108.43

I just did a quick poke through the site to see if I could find it, and still no sign. I'm sure it's out of print. The person to ask about posters seems to be Katherine Fronk at kfronk@ala.org.

Hey, maybe if enough people pledge to buy, we could get a small custom print run or something. Worth asking, anyway.
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 10:36:22 am EDT from 69.112.108.43

Gargoyles READ poster> I have one of these, currently rolled up and stored away as it's desperately in need of a good frame job and sadly looking a little worse for wear these days. (It's HEAVY, it used to fall off the wall a LOT, got a little crumpled, stained with that blue tacky putty I used to put it up, corners worn... *sigh* Poor poster!) It's beautiful and I love it, though. When I first heard it existed, I went down to my junior high school library and asked the librarian for an ALA catalog, where to my delight I found the poster still for sale, as well as sets of 100 bookmarks. (If anyone picked up a READ bookmark at the 1998 Gathering, you're welcome!)

Once I placed that order, I started to get ALA catalogs at my house for years afterwards, and it always warmed my heart to flip through them and see the Gargoyles poster. Until it wasn't there any more. That was years ago, and I don't know where to get them now. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to contact someone at ALA and ask.

http://www.alastore.ala.org/

If you do ever get one, get a backup for posterity, and in any case treat it better than I did mine!
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 10:27:53 am EDT from 69.112.108.43

Rebel> The thing is, if the chocolate cake you are served has an obvious intended connection to the best chocolate cake you ever had - same brand, same restaurant, same chef, what have you - you are going to compare it to the best chocolate cake you ever had. If "The Goliath Chronicles" were merely some show that had a tenuous connection with "Gargoyles," then comparing it to "Gargoyles" would perhaps be unfair. But it's not. It was intended as the third season of the show, continuing the story from where the second season left off. Same characters, same voice actors, same setting. The only overt changes were the title, the title sequence, and adding the Goliath narrations, all of which is more of a refresh of the series than a change to a truly new concept or different show. So considering that - and the fact that it would be nearly impossible to understand what was going on in TGC if you hadn't seen the previous two seasons - I think it is completely fair for people to compare the show to "Gargoyles," maybe even impossible not to.

I do sympathize with the people who worked on TGC. As I said before, they had a pretty thankless job and not an easy one either. Animated TV shows with a continuing storyline are a little more common nowadays, but they're still far from the norm and they certainly weren't the norm in the 90s. Though it may not seem like much of a stretch, writing a series with a continuous plot is a tougher thing than writing a series of stand-alone episodes and does require a somewhat different skillset. (Please note that I am NOT saying that series with continuity are better than those with self-contained episodes. They're just different ways of telling what tend to be different kinds of stories.) It can be a tricky thing to find the right balance between telling a satisfying 22 minute story and serving the needs of the bigger arc, between writing episodes that simply keep the status quo going and making every episode a game changer. It may not have helped that the end of season two marked a big change in the future direction of the series. If someone new had taken over at the end of season one, I don't know that the results would have been markedly better than TGC, but I think at least the new creative team would have had a better idea of where the series would go from there. The world discovering that gargoyles are real was not something where the new team could work out by looking back at how it had been handled in the previous seasons. So it's not surprising that the third season fell into the familiar "X-Men" "protecting a world that hates and fears them" (sometimes largely because the world is highly forgetful or outright dumb) story.

In the end, I think it's not so much that these particular people did a particularly bad job on TGC as that "Gargoyles" really needs Greg. Greg has repeatedly said that it took a lot of very creative people to make the sow what it was, and rightly so. But in the end, it's his baby and he is the one who can best guide it forward. TGC could possibly have been done better under different circumstances and it definitely could have been done worse. The show may have lost a lot of its subtlty and smartness, but it retained many other essentials of what it was. No one tried to make it a comedy or more kid-oriented. We could have ended up with something far worse than TGC, to be sure. But I think we're all in agreement that Greg is the only person who can really continue "Gargoyles" and do it right.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 8:03:45 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

Rebel> I think that in regards to stone sleep gargoyles are just so tied into the rythyms of the planet that they stay remarkably on schedule. The Sun isn't what turns them to stone, but I do think that the visual of seeing the Sun rise does give their bodies a pretty strong visual cue. Overall though, I think it is the planet's bio-rythyms driving the process. So if a gargoyle lived underground or whatever for months, I still think they'd remain more or less on schedule with gargoyles outside, even through things like seasonal variations in sunlight.

Youtube review> First let me say that I think the guy was generally mature and respectful in his review and is entitled to his opinion. And frankly I agree with him that some of the fans are annoying, lol, I know I am. But two things really irked me about his review. First of all, he gripes that these gargoyles from the middle ages should be using swords and such and they are not. Does he not notice Hudson's sword for the entire first season? What about Goliath using that axe in "Enter Macbeth"? The other thing that bothered me (and this was a big one) is how he kept going on and on (and on) about how Gargoyles was supposed to be so dark and it dissapointingly was not. I've never found Gargoyles to be dark, and I'd never try to sell it to would-be fans as a dark show. It may be darker than Ducktales or Chip N Dale, but to me its message was always about hope and family and love. I believe Greg has also said that these were major themes in the series. I do think it has its dark moments (esspecially in the comics), but on the whole, I think it was a very uplifting series, not a dark one. I don't know where he got this notion, but it was the wrong foot for him to start off with watching the show. He had expectations that he shouldn't have had and thus he was dissapointed.
I wish he had judged and reviewed the show based on its own merits rather than on his preconceived notions and comparisons to other shows.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 7:08:57 am EDT from 70.230.150.190

TGC> "I can think of several instances where the writing in TGC suffered"

Who can't, really? The show was, as other here have said, (that is, if viewed as a stand alone and w/o comparison to the original series and the comics) decent enough, but still had too many flaws, in logic, animation errors, etc.

Too many to really list here, but here's an example, from 'Ransom'. After Goliath finds the secret room in Doyle's headquarters and takes out the 2 goons, Alex's crib suddenly appears from out of nowhere. And right when Goliath had thrown that heavy door, no less.

Things like that are what helped make TCG an embarrassing mess. Good thing it's not canon. Might've been better if the writers had followed Greg's season 3 ideas to the T, but they didn't, obviously. So we got a sequel series that paled by comparison.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 5:02:29 am EDT from 68.75.27.201

Sorry for the double post but in regards to the Goliath Chronicles and fans deep rooted hatred of it. It's kinda like the reason alot of people hate most movies based off comics, novels, video games, or even old cartoons. Someone new is in charge and they wanna leave their mark on the series. And alot of times it ends up feeling like they took the source material and threw it over their shoulder while saying "Eh, this ain't no good".

When you take something that already has a established fanbase, they tend to have expectations. Expectations that unfortunately are rarely met.
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 5:02:26 am EDT from 69.14.122.91

Charisma82 -- Your post got me curious, because I'm sure I've seen it somewhere in my past at some point . . . funnily enough, a quick google search brought me right back to the CR . . . though from five years earlier. XD From a certain 'Battle Beast' posted May 29, 2003 10:30:07 AM:

"I was at my library yesterday, and I saw a rather large poster of Goliath sitting on a rooftop corner reading, and the caption said: 'Gargoyles for America's library's.' (It should have said CANADA'S librarys...) IT WAS Goliath, but was a weird pic of him. It was a cool poster."
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 5:01:35 am EDT from 157.242.210.47

I watched the guy's "review". I say it like that because it wasn't so much a review as it was a video about a guy telling you what's supposedly better then Gargoyles. I like anime and even I feel like the guy needs to get slapped. Not for disliking Gargoyles but because of how much of a biased anime fanboy he sounded like. But I'm not gonna dignify him with a response on his video, he's obviously just trying to get people worked up.

Although it particularly made me laugh when he said "I don't think you'd ever see one of the Gargoyles die." Did he really watch the whole first season or for that matter even the first 5 episodes?
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 4:54:22 am EDT from 69.14.122.91

When I was reading through some of the stuff that Gargoyle fans own, it reminded me of this poster that was in my high school library about 5 years ago of Goliath sitting on the edge of a building reading a book. I thought it was a really cool poster combing my love of reading and my favorite tv show. So I was trying to find this poster online, or even a picture of it online, but can't find it. Does anyone here know what poster I'm talking about, and if so, where I could find it online? Thanks!
Charisma82
"Dean, did you pay any attention in history class?" "Yeah. Shot heard 'round the world, how bills become laws... " "That's not school; that's schoolhouse rock!" Sam & Dean from Supernatural
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 3:09:48 am EDT from 64.13.117.74

I don't see the problem with providing a disagreement as long as no personal jabs are thrown (such as refering to him being high).
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 1:57:31 am EDT from 71.120.226.102

Purplegoldfish> It is not worth getting upset over. It's his opinion. An opinion I completely disagree with, but an opinion none the less.

Ignore it.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 1:14:35 am EDT from 66.214.184.152

Rebel> Since The Goliath Chronicles is suppose to be a continuation of Gargoyles, comparisons are appropriate. Chances are that if TGC had a different title, different characters and no connection to the Gargoyles cartoon it wouldn't be subjected to the same criticism.

If a show is simple, it's not necessarily bad, but if it's associated with a show that has strong continuity and complex characters, then the show is expected to follow the same standards set by the previous show.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 1:10:33 am EDT from 71.120.226.102

lol forgot the link!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZKuZr_sqvE
Purplegoldfish
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 1:08:32 am EDT from 69.183.34.206

This guy talks for over ten minutes on how bad a show Gargoyles is. If you can stomach it, he's annoying and he disses the fans as unintelligent people who have never seen any other animation. I left him a few comments lol (as skydragonn).
Purplegoldfish
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 1:06:18 am EDT from 69.183.34.206

The first time I saw Gargoyles was when I was very young. I was too young to really understand or connect the episodes together and so the show faded from my memory. A year and a half ago was when I got back into Gargoyles. I stayed up really late one night and was flipping through the TV when I saw Gargoyles on ToonDisney. The name struck me as something familar, I changed the channel, and now I am firmly in the fandom and in love with this show.

Anyway, when I realized that ToonDisney showed all the epsiodes in order, I waited for the Awakenings and watched it all the way through. When I reached third season, I felt it was off. Very off. In plot, in character, in animation even. It was only when I joined the online fandom and discovered that TGC wasnt cannon that I realized why it had felt so awkward. Really, thats how I would describe TGC: awkward. It has its few shining moments (like others have said, I like The Dying Of The Light and I also really enjoy Seeing Isn't Believing) but, for the most part, the stories felt weird (I really couldnt stand Broadway going to Hollywood and, though Ive always wanted an episode completely devoted to Bronx, I got bored with his story.

The other thing that drove me absolutly up a wall was how Goliath would monologue at the beginning and end, giving each episode a moral. I felt like that made the show more childish because each episode was supposed to teach us a lesson on how we should live our lives.

I wont insult The Goliath Chronicles and say its terrible. Ill nitpick at times but I, like most fans, simply wish to believe it didnt happen. Thats my choice.

However, Rebel, one thing I must respectfully disagree with is your plea for us not to compare TGC to seasons one and two. Whether consiously or unconsiously, you always compare things. You compare food when you eat it, books when you read them, movies when you watch them. You pick the most similar thing you can thinks of and compare the two. TGC is, technically, a sequel to Greg W's Gargoyles (thats how I like to think of it). Sometimes sequels are a big hit and sometimes theyre a big flop. But they are ALWAYS compared to the ones who came before, like how the newest three Star Wars films are compared to the eldest three.

But, I think that, even if I had never seen seasons one and two, I would have still felt that TGC was bland. Yes, I wouldnt be able to say, "Oh, that character didnt act like that in the first seasons" but I would still have to suffer through the moral of each episode (like I stated before) and I would still get bored with the Broadway and Bronx episodes. I cant say that completely objectivly (because you cant go into my brain and wipe seasons one and two from my memory) but the basic stuff that bugged me about TGC would still be there.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 12:41:04 am EDT from 209.243.38.9

By the way, I've been doing a great deal of thinking about Gargoyle stone sleep lately--we know from watching the show that all the Gargoyles don't awaken from stone sleep (or enter stone sleep) at exactly the same time. In Hunter's Moon part 1 for example, there is probably a 15 or 20 second delay between the time that Goliath's stone skin starts crackling, and Brooklyn bursts out of his skin completely. Also, we know that stone sleep doesn't hinge on the mere presence or lack of sun rays, since a gargoyle can enter stone sleep even when underground and out of the sun (like Broadway in the Silver Falcon). We also know this because Lex and Hudson had "jet lag" in #7. So basically, it looks like the presence, or lack, of the sun obviously has a great deal of INFLUENCE on gargoyle stone sleep, but it is ultimately the gargoyle's own internal clock which determines when he/she will turn to stone or awaken. The sun seems to be the thing that guides the internal clock. Would you agree with this assertion?

So, what if you had a gargoyle who spent several months underground? Unlike a fish, the gargoyle would probably not go blind, since they wouldn't live in complete darkness (their eyes would surely light the place up once in a while). But, would their sleep cycles be completely accurate? If there was never any sunlight to "guide" their internal clock, would they basically sleep/awaken on a 12 hour schedule, regardless of whether the sun is or isn't up? The length of day/night varies seasonally...some seasons have long days, some have long nights, etc. Would a gargoyle who spent a long time in a cave potentially end up with sleep cycles that didn't correspond to the sunrise/sunset? So they could potentially emerge from their cave and the sun might be bright and sunny, but they wouldn't turn to stone? Their sleep cycle would probably eventually revert to normal, but they might have a few days of "lag". And what about the opposite? What about a gargoyle who spent their whole life with the sun in view (say, a gargoyle who lived on a spaceship, or a gargoyle who lived in some kind of ship that flew around in the earth's atmosphere, always between the earth and the sun), or with some kind of brilliant artificial light that accurately mimicked the sun (at least, from the perspective of the gargoyle's cells). What would their sleep cycles be like?

Also, I'm curious what you think about healing. We know that stone sleep is a "concrete cure-all" for most minor wounds, and that it can help a gargoyle survive a major wound. Humans sleep, during which time we probably heal more than when we are awake, but we don't have the benefit of some sort of "concrete cure-all", so we still heal ourselves while we are awake as well as while we sleep. Do you think that the healing mechanisms of gargoyles who are awake are as fast and effective as the healing mechanisms of humans who are awake? After all, since gargoyles would generally have stone sleep to "fall back on" it seems possible that they might not have developed the ability to heal as quickly as humans can during their waking hours.

This leads to my hypothetical question--excluding the modern medicine which humans have access to, who would be more likely to survive: a human who received a severe, life-threatening wound, or a gargoyle who received an equally severe, life-threatening wound 11 hours before sunrise? Clearly if the injury happens right before sunrise, the gargoyle is better off. But if the injury happens HOURS before sunrise, are gargoyles less likely to survive long enough for stone sleep to heal them, since they may not have developed the ability to heal during their waking hours to the extent that humans can?
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Oct 8, 2008 12:28:44 am EDT from 76.165.39.198

I agree with what a lot of you are saying. Goliath Chronicles wasn't nearly as good as Seasons 1 and 2, but....it was still decent. When you don't compare it to Seasons 1 and 2, it seems downright great compared to most cartoons (especially most cartoons nowadays, blech).

Basically, what I'm saying is that that's how we should look at it--don't look at how bad it was compared to Seasons 1 and 2, but look at how GOOD it is compared to most cartoons. As an example, if somebody served me a very good piece of chocolate cake, I wouldn't compare it to the BEST piece of chocolate cake I've ever eaten...but would rather try to look at it on its own, or maybe compare it to most NORMAL pieces of chocolate cake. Of course, everyone has a right to evaluate things their own way, and I guess I shouldn't expect everyone else to see things so optimistically.

Anyway, I know that people have a right to have whatever opinions they want to have and they have a right to state them...even if they think a particular work is an utter piece of trash, they have a right to say that, despite how much work the creators might have put in. Still, just because they have the right to do that, doesn't mean they ought to...EVERY work has SOME merit (no matter how small), and nothing deserves to be completely dismissed. Just because there are lots of people out there who ignore the good in things and only focus on the bad, doesn't mean that's a very healthy way to look at creative works.

Anyway, I suppose I'll stop arguing this, since it seems like the last several opinions have been...quite reasonable. Which is basically all I was going for anyway.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 11:44:33 pm EDT from 76.165.39.198

The reason I don't much care for TGC is, as stated by others, it doesn't really meet the standards set by the prior two seasons. A couple episodes stand out for me as generally good, or with good potential. Prime example, "Dying of the Light;" the fact Greg included Robbin's dialogue from that episode was a nod to the things the third season did well. My biggest problem was the level of inconsistencies within the episodes, especially in regards to what the public let the Quarrymen get away with. Okay, the handling of the Quarrymen in general bugged me. I recall incorrectly answering "when were they not" in episodes, they were so prominent and overused in my mind. The season could have been better overall, and it's not canon so I don't much care for it.
Asatira
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 11:40:47 pm EDT from 68.190.20.172

To me, TGC is not entirely bad. There were a few moments I actually liked (for instance, I believe with a few tweaks here and there "Broadway Goes to Hollywood" would be a perfectly good episode), though on the whole it wasn't up to the standards of Seasons 1 and 2 or the SLG comics.

But, really, the biggest reason I disregard TGC these days is because it is not canon. Watching it is like reading the Marvel comics. Same characters, but a different universe. An interesting thing to see, but mostly pointless.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 10:04:40 pm EDT from 70.230.150.190

Jurgan> I totally agree, The Goliath Chronicles weren't horrible, there are some good stories, and the animation is still fairly good. But when you compare it to seasons 1 and 2, it's pretty much an atrocity. I think that's why this is still a hot topic, because the The Goliath Chronicles just couldn't come anywhere near living up to everything that the previous seasons set up, and everything that the show was in general.
Ricky
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 9:21:45 pm EDT from 151.205.165.77

I can think of several instances where the writing in TGC suffered. Goliath's opening monologue in "Ransom," for example, might have been more appropriate if the antagonist of that episode had actually been motivated by money. I think we could also have done without "A Bronx Tail" and "Genesis Undone".

I'll let someone else post the link to the wikiality entry on PIT, if they wish. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Do you wanna know why I use a knife? Guns are too quick. You can't savor all the... little... emotions. In... you see, in their last moments, people show you who they really are. So in a way, I know your friends better than you ever did. Would you like to know which of them were cowards?" -The Joker
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 9:12:45 pm EDT from 24.125.223.13

Well, let's be honest: objectively speaking, TGC wasn't terrible. Had the entirety of Gargoyles been at the quality level of TGC, people probably wouldn't hate it. They probably wouldn't love it, either. We'd remember it as a mediocre, occasionally enjoyable cartoon, but we almost certainly wouldn't still be talking about it to this extent. The reason why it's so hated is because it was a huge step down from the series up to that point. By comparison, it's awful, but on its own, it's not really as bad as all that. Except for To Serve Mankind- that's awful. Which episodes were awful, of course, is a matter of opinion, but if you're not biased by the high standards of Gargoyles, I think you have to admit that it was decent storytelling.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 8:14:26 pm EDT from 68.58.182.37

Sorry for the double post, but:

In my copy of the Old Farmer's Almanac for 2008, today is the anniversary of the opening of "Cats" (which began its run on October 7, 1982). We know from Greg Weisman that Maggie came to New York hoping to become an actress. I found myself wondering today if she tried auditioning for "Cats" before her funds ran out, and she wound up on the streets and met Sevarius.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 7:46:06 pm EDT from 4.244.208.250

I think that the Goliath Chronicles did have a lot of flaws - and unfortunately, not all of them stemmed from unfamiliarity with the original series. Some of its weaknesses probably did, but there were some that should have been caught with even a certain amount of common sense - such as Castaway still being a respected citizen after the events in "For It May Come True". (The best explanation I can think of was that the public - including Margot Yale - were so afraid of the gargoyles that they thought it best to ignore the incident - with a tone of "He can't protect the city from those monsters if he's in prison." Kind of like how the Gotham City police look the other way where Batman's concerned because, even though he's a vigilante, they know they need his help against super-villains like the Joker. The difference is that if Batman used the kind of tactics against criminals that the "Goliath Chronicles" Castaway did, he'd be in Arkham Asylum in a hurry.)

Then there were the public always forgetting everything they'd learned about the true nature of gargoyles by the beginning of the next episode (though the ending of "To Serve Mankind" offered some solution to that problem), and the Quarrymen using tactics that would only make sense if they knew the true nature of gargoyles. (I'm not sure I'd hold the production team's failure to realize that the public would see the gargoyles as savage beasts rather than intelligent beings against them. It would be an understandable assumption, since in "X-Men", the public knew that mutants were intelligent beings rather than savage beasts. I believe it was the same way with the Neo-Sapiens in "Exo-Squad", though since I haven't seen that series and only know about it by reputation, I'm just guessing. Indeed, I hadn't realized, until Greg Weisman pointed it out, that the public would see the gargoyles as monsters acting solely on brute instinct, without the gift of reason.)

Given how often the episodes in "The Goliath Chronicles" had the regular public so easily duped, to the point of frequent riots (such as attacking Xanatos's limo at the start of "Broadway Goes to Hollywood"), I wonder if one reason why the production team only had Demona show up in one episode was that they feared it would be too easy to convince the audience that her appraisal of humanity was more accurate than Goliath's.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 6:37:37 pm EDT from 4.244.214.22

Rebel: I think Bishansky has only ever asked people to keep religion and politics out of the CR. And I agree with him. Dig around in the archives, you'll see how well some of those discussions go.

Mike Ejercito: <"Generations" was a great episode.>

You can find this on the GargWiki, but they edited out the language there. So I'm supplying the lnk to the raw version:

http://fanfic.gargoyles-fans.org/search_result.php?author=&title=Generations+-+The+Director%27s+Cut&saga=
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Do you wanna know why I use a knife? Guns are too quick. You can't savor all the... little... emotions. In... you see, in their last moments, people show you who they really are. So in a way, I know your friends better than you ever did. Would you like to know which of them were cowards?" -The Joker
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 5:45:09 pm EDT from 24.125.223.13

Rebel> I understand how you're feeling about this, believe me. My husband work in a creative field and his work gets seen and purchased and critiqued by a lot of people. And when I see people on message boards talking about how much they hate something my husband has done, I do sometimes want to jump through the computer and beat them with a two-by-four. I want to tell them that they're wrong, that their expectations are completely unrealistic, that the issues they have is something my husband had no control over, or that they just have no understanding of the industry whatsoever. But in the end, I don't. It still gets me upset sometimes, but what I try to keep in mind is that these people are criticizing my husband's work, not my husband. And though my husband is certainly serious about his work and put a lot of himself into it, it's not the same thing. Sometimes these people really aren't informed about the industry. Sometimes it's actually quite understandable that they don't get why the end product is the way it is. And sometimes their arguments are just plain stupid. But for the most part, these people are not attacking my husband. They are only looking at the end product and critiquing that, not the person who made it. Some of them probably don't even think much about the people and the process that goes into making pretty much anything.

Now if someone actually is attacking the creators and not just the work, then I'm totally with you, Rebel. That's not OK. We have very little idea of what pressures the creators of "The Goliath Chronicles" were under and what they were thinking when they worked on the series, so we really have no business assuming the worst of them. The only thing we can effectively criticize is the end product, which is what people are generally doing here. And Greg B is right; if you did creative work and release it to the public, you are taking the chance that people will rip it apart. Some people you can count on to be constructive, but not everyone is going to do that. And yes, people's feelings may get hurt, but if you're going to be creative for a living, you have to build up something of a thick skin and learn to take the legitimate criticism and ignore the nastiness and hyperbole. Ask any of the authors and artists from the fandom. Fanart and fanfic certainly isn't immune to criticism.

It's not that anyone thinks that the people who worked on "The Goliath Chronicles" weren't trying or actively wanted to make a sub-par third season of "Gargoyles." But unfortunately, working on the show was ultimately a pretty thankless job and effort alone does not make a great animated series. I have no doubt that there were people who worked very hard on shows I thought were awful - maybe even people who put their hearts and souls into making those shows. But the end product is what shos an that's all I can judge in the end.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 4:10:15 pm EDT from 146.115.115.33

Given the circumstances though, I'd have to say it's understandable that they did get Gargoyle continuity from the first two seasons wrong, but surely they should have been able to keep their own stories straight.

For instance, Sevarius never committed any crime which could be traced to him, but Goliath mentions him being jailed.

In Angels Of The Night, Margot completey trusted Castaway even though he was arrested in a previous episode. To paraphrase the review from the fansite, she should have at least viewed him with suspicion.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 3:34:25 pm EDT from 71.120.226.102

I Thought the Goliath Chronicles was ok. I still watch it occasionally. 2 episodes that I didn't like were To Serve Mankind and For it May Come True. I didn't know that it was non canon till about 2002. I don't think i'll get rid of the tape. I still got alot of cartoons on VHS I don't want to get rid off.
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 3:06:44 pm EDT from 205.188.117.134

Rebel> I agree with some of what you're saying, but not everything. If people wish to dismiss TGC as utter garbage, that's their opinion and nothing anyone says is likely to sway them from it. I haven't seen all of TGC, so I can't really comment on the whole thing. The episodes I did see were certainly not the worst cartoons in the world. They just feel like a step down and very much like what they are: episodes made with less money and resources by people who didn't have adequate time to get a feel for the previous episodes without someone with a clear vision of what the series should be at the helm. They have their moments, but they also have a lot of really bad aspects and I generally do not care for them.

I think the reason a lot of fans simply act like TGC doesn't exist and the "Gargoyles" TV series simply came to an abrupt halt is that it's easier when explaining the situation to someone who isn't familiar with the series. To say that the series never really got an ending is easier than saying "Well, there was a third season which had an ending but it wasn't done by the guy who co-created the series and those episodes weren't very good and so there really should be more." I don't really agree that "Angels in the Night" is a much better ending than most cartoon series can boast of. It's one of the ones I haven't seen, but I have read the plot synopsis, so I know enough of what happens to make general comments on it. Cartainly there are continuity based series which get canceled before they are finished. But that doesn't mean that a mediocre to bad ending is better than no ending at all. It may be better than the ending some shows received or never received, but it is certainly not the best ending "Gargoyles" could have hoped for. Looking at both "Reawakening" and "Hunter's Moon" gives us a glimpse at what can be done with open-ended closure: and ending which does not resolve all plot threads, but does at least mark the end of one arc of the story. If Greg had been working on season three and was told definitively that it would be the last season of "Gargoyles," I feel confident that he could have written something with a similar feeling, possibly even with more closure for fans, while still leaving space to work on future stories in that world if the opportunity presented itself. I just don't feel like an ending that seeks to quickly and easily solves a large and complicated problem is one that I can feel happy about having as opposed to nothing.

What I do agree with you on is that the plan for the Gargoyles universe may not have been feasible and may still not be. Greg B is correct in pointing out that the spin-offs were pitched because Greg W's bosses were toying with the idea of expanding the Gargoyles universe. It's also worth noting that the more likely an expected scenario than all of them being produced was that one of them would be picked up and important stories from the others would simply be folded into the shows that did happen. I think this might have been an example of several people putting the cart in front of the horse. The series was doing quite well, but it wasn't so mind-blowingly successful that there was an obvious market for one or more spin-offs. And, of course, by the time the third season rolled around, the attitude towards the show at Disney was much different. Going into the future though, I do kind of worry that Greg's massive plans and the fact that we all know about them means that we're just going to end up being disappointed again and again. Let me explain. Once all the trades come out, we will have 16 issues worth of new "Gargoyles" stories. That IS more than a lot of decade or more old canceled TV series could hope for. And yet, for a lot of us, it ends up feeling like a disappointment. Not just because of the frequent and lengthy delays, which are reasonable to be frustrated by, but because we know that what we got is only a tiny cube off the tip of the iceberg. And though I hope that any future "Gargoyles" projects fare better than the SLG comic has so far, I'm really not convinced that any of them realistically can show us everything we've been promised. Sure, we can all probably dig up some examples of comics or TV shows or series of books that have been going on for decades, but consider this: if "Gargoyles" continues to proceed in roughly real time (now over ten years behind the current date) and Greg really does have stories to keep it going until 2198, we will all almost certainly be long dead - Greg included - before the last "Gargoyles" story has been told. I am willing to keep believing that Greg will find a way to tell more "Gargoyles" stories, but I'm more skeptical about the chances that a scientific breakthrough will allow me to live to be 220.

As usual, all opinions expressed are mine and you're entitled to agree, disagree, or disregard.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 2:02:23 pm EDT from 146.115.115.33

<<It's nowhere near as good as what Greg has come up with, but nonetheless they don't deserve for their work to be talked about as if it is trash>>

Plenty of people work on not-so-spectacular productions all the time. Those productions then get ripped to shreds. That's part of being in the entertainment industry. It's an industry I am now part of as well.

No one is critic proof. When you put your work out there, and get paid for it, you are inviting criticism as well. Everybody works hard, but no one should come out of a bad movie and feel like they can't voice the movie was bad just because people worked hard on it. Everyone works hard in this business. But criticism is the nature of the beast.

I know that, and believe me, I am more than prepared to one day have my work ripped to shreds by people.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 1:53:04 pm EDT from 66.214.184.152

Greg > Given your frequent habit of "back-seat posting", telling people what they should and shouldn't say here, you're in no position to tell me that I don't have a right to defend Goliath Chronicles or encourage people to stop constantly saying bad things about it. Hunter's Moon may have been a better episode/finale than Angels in the Night, but regardless, my original point still stands: Angels in the Night was a MUCH better finale than most cartoons ever get.

And yes, we did get one spin-off...6 issues in a black and white comic. Not that I'm not grateful for that, because they are GREAT stories, but it was really too much to hope that every spin-off would end up getting their own TV series. That kind of thing almost never happens.

The Goliath Chronicles staff worked really hard making those episodes, hoping they would please the fans. It's nowhere near as good as what Greg has come up with, but nonetheless they don't deserve for their work to be talked about as if it is trash.
Rebel
GOLIATH: I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING SHAKESPEAREAN NOW.
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 1:40:53 pm EDT from 76.165.38.166

Landon Thomas> THANK YOU SO MUCH! That's perfect!

So... what are these Applause figures I keep hearing about?
Supermorff
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 1:17:54 pm EDT from 64.136.26.225

"Generations" was a great episode.
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 1:04:29 pm EDT from 66.214.144.141

Rebel> << Regardless of what you think about the Goliath Chronicles, the reality is that Angels in the Night is a MUCH better finale than most cartoon series could EVER hope for. >>

No, "Hunter's Moon" is an excellent finale. "Angels" was... well, I shall refrain as that kind of language is not appropriate for this forum.

That being said, Rebel, please don't tell us how to feel about TGC.

Also, as for Greg's spin-off plans. Don't talk about what's plausible and what isn't. Hell, we ended up getting a spin-off. Not to mention that Greg didn't come up with those spin-offs just for the fun of it. At the time, Disney was interested in creating their own universe akin to Marvel or DC.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 12:35:28 pm EDT from 66.214.184.152

Vicky > Why would you get rid of a Goliath Chronicles VHS? I mean sure, it may not be canon, and it may be lower quality than the rest of the series, but they're not HORRIBLE, despite what some people say. Several of the Goliath Chronicles episodes are quite good, in my opinion.

Most cartoons don't last long enough to have a decent ending. Around here, a lot of people seem to act like Gargoyles was abruptly stopped before it ended, and that the Goliath Chronicles don't even count...which isn't really true. I mean sure, Greg's plans for the future of the series are EXPONENTIALLY better than what happened in the Goliath Chronicles...but his plans were never really plausible.

I mean, did anyone ever honestly expect that a single Disney cartoon would generate tons of cartoon spin-offs, and that they would sufficiently tell all the stories in a universe that spans thousands of years? As awesome as that would have been, I doubt that that was ever a realistic option. If that's how things were going to be, Gargoyles should have started out as novels, not cartoons. If Gargoyles had been novels, then it's possible that Greg could have told all his stories, but with cartoons, that could probably never have happened.

Anyway--I'm definitely not saying that we should stop hoping for more comics or spreading the word about them...I'm just saying that we should stop being so critical or dismissive of the Goliath Chronicles. Regardless of what you think about the Goliath Chronicles, the reality is that Angels in the Night is a MUCH better finale than most cartoon series could EVER hope for.

(The above is not directed solely at Vicky, but anyone in general)
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 11:52:05 am EDT from 76.165.34.188

*SIGH* Ok. I'll list what I have... TWO copies of each comic plus TWO copies of the Trade.

Four season one VHS tapes.

TWO copies of each DVD.

Four Applause figures (Lexington, Brooklyn, Two Hudsons)

A poster of the Gargs flying from Castle Wyvern

And a couple more items.
Battle beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 11:41:57 am EDT from 75.153.189.121

I've got both DVDs, Got quite a few Episodes on VHS including The Goliath Chronicles which I need to get rid off but keep putting it off.
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 10:52:19 am EDT from 205.188.117.134

Here you go, Supermorff: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~thom1576/journey-credit2.jpg

I recorded all the episodes off Toon Disney around 2002 and captured them to files at the same time. I also bought 'The Force of Goliath' VHS off eBay so I could get the uncut Deadly Force episode, until the DVDs came out.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 10:00:17 am EDT from 216.250.163.157

I haven't been a fan as long as many of you, but I do have both DVD sets and every issue of the SLG comic.

I have a favour to ask of one of the fans who has recordings of The Goliath Chronicles. If your recordings also include the end credits, can you PLEASE check the credits of The Journey and then let me know what BJ Ward is credited as? This came up at GargWiki and I have no way of checking (since episodes of YouTube invariably have the end credits cut out).
Supermorff
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 9:20:00 am EDT from 64.136.26.225

Since other people seem to be listing additional stuff, I also have all the single issue comics and the first "Clan Building" trade. I did own all the VHS tapes of season one at one point, but I think I got rid of most of them. I may still have "The Heroes Awaken" around somewhere.

And I have the Hot Topic shirt. And the older shirt with Goliath on the side of a building holding onto an architectural gargoyle. And the poster of the clan flying down from the Eyrie Building. And the new poster of the cover of issue #1 (signed by the creative team). And several of the action figures. And the castle playset. And the Applause figures. And the SkyBox trading car set. And an audio casette game. And...
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 9:00:41 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

"I got a question for everyone. How many of us has all of the episodes of Gargoyles. I have both DVD's as well as a set of tapes (including the Goliath cronicals) that I bought in on ebay years ago. How about the rest of you?"

Ditto, and I have every comic, plus the HT shirt, as well.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 8:06:12 am EDT from 68.75.27.201

I have all issues of the recent comic, and Clan Building Volume 1. I have both DVD Releases, Heroes Awakening on VHS and all Season 2 episodes on tape (with The Journey as well).
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 1:26:34 am EDT from 71.120.226.102

I had every episode on tape once upon a time, but I have no idea where they are now and I don't own a vcr any more or ever plan to again. But I do have all the dvds and digital copies of all the episodes, plus the edited-together Awakening movie (I think), and TGC.
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 1:23:50 am EDT from 208.194.97.9

I have the offical DVDs along with the VHS tapes that came out, plus "the Heroes Awaken" on laserdisc-alas, no laserdisc player. I do have 100s of unedited videotape copes of the shows from various airings of the show over the years-some of which were original airings. Sadly, no original season one airings. Have all the comics as well. One of these days I'll have to find time and go through all those tapes and dub them to my computer.
Wingless
posted @ Tue, Oct 7, 2008 12:30:58 am EDT from 99.245.254.123

I have the Season one DVD and the Season 2 Vol 1 DVD. I have the second half of season 2 and the Goliath Chronicles downloaded to my computer.
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:30:31 pm EDT from 76.165.36.204

I have all the episodes of Gargoyles and The Goliath Chronicles on my computer, I downloaded them a couple of years ago :D. I have all the episodes of Gargoyles on my iPod, along with "The Journey" from The Goliath Chronicles. It's great to have all the episodes to watch whenever I'm in the mood.

I also have the Season 1 and Season 2 Volume 2 DVDs, 4 Clan-Building Vol 1's, and 2 of each individual issue of both Gargoyles and Bad Guys.

Excessive, yes..but what can I say, I loves me Gargoyles.
Ricky
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 8:33:01 pm EDT from 141.149.48.15

Funny you should mention it; we just got a DVD recorder and I'm in the process of dumping the second hald a season two I recorded off of Toon Disney from the DVR to disc. It'll be nice to know I have the whole thing safely recorded. And of course, should we get a DVD of the second half of season two, I will happily buy that.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 7:12:00 pm EDT from 146.115.115.33

I have both DVDs and tapes of all 65 of the first two seasons. I never bothered taping the Goliath Chronicles.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 7:04:57 pm EDT from 4.244.215.165

I only have the DVDs (and the comics)... I wish I had recorded all the episodes when they originally aired, but at the time I was recording Animaniacs... <_<'''
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: <(*¬*<) Sleep patterns shot...
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 5:49:51 pm EDT from 72.220.179.199

I have the DVDs and all the episodes on VHS, most twice, recorded from the Disney Afternoon and the ABC Saturday morning airings however many years ago.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 5:41:26 pm EDT from 76.205.81.234

I got a question for everyone. How many of us has all of the episodes of Gargoyles. I have both DVD's as well as a set of tapes (including the Goliath cronicals) that I bought in on ebay years ago. How about the rest of you?
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 4:17:16 pm EDT from 170.112.1.251

Demonskrye> I agree. Neither design is really fabulous; of the two, I like the HT one better, but of course that's my personal opinion. Not sure if I'll buy the other one or not, but there's not much else I can do in the way of monetary support for the property.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth-dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 12:59:59 pm EDT from 216.57.96.1

Shirts> I own the Hot Topic shirt and I'll probably buy the 80sTees one as well. (My husband agrees that they are a reputable site and I doubt many vendors really want to risk provoking Disney's lawyers.) My personal opinion is that neither shirt is a really great design. The Hot Topic one is a bit dull as an image and there's an awkward tangent between the bottom of Goliath's nose and the top of his fist. The text on the back is unecessary and tough to read, both because of the use of the logo font and the orange on black color, which I tend to find hard to see. The 80s Tees design is clearly a bunch of promotional art/model sheets poses thrown together. The resulting composition is not all that visually appealing and makes little sense in terms of creating a unified scene and relative character sizes. (Even if we assume Lex and Bronx are way in the foreground, they're probably still too big and Demona is freaking HUGE.) Neither one is terrible. Both have their particular strengths as well as weaknesses. I do wear the Hot Topic one out in public because I wear shirts like that in general. And even if I didn't, I'm fortunate enough to be in a position where I can afford to buy a shirt just to support "Gargoyles."

As always, if you can't afford it, don't buy it. If you think it's something you really don't want or need and don't feel like yuo can or should spend the money just to promote "Gargoyles," don't buy it. If you like the shirt or you really want to buy any "Gargoyles" product that comes out and you can afford it, by all means, pick it up.

Harmonic Convergence> The article for Harmonic Convergence on GargWiki was just edited and I'm wondering if the weather phenomenon Greg observed at Tintagel will be tied into such an event should it make an appearance in the Gargoyles universe.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 12:18:11 pm EDT from 146.115.115.33

And away we go on with the show! We hope.......
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:41:46 am EDT from 69.54.209.26

Adam -- You can have a cookie if you want **Points to cookie table**

Man, that was a slow one this week . . . what's sad is that I'm still up from when I posted . . . that's what I get for not finishing a paper early DX
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 7:11:03 am EDT from 157.242.220.118

10th. Do I win anything?
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 6:55:22 am EDT from 76.113.176.63

9th
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 4:24:58 am EDT from 64.12.117.134

8th! Yes! My favorite #.
Charisma82
"Dean, did you pay any attention in history class?" "Yeah. Shot heard 'round the world, how bills become laws... " "That's not school; that's schoolhouse rock!" Sam & Dean from Supernatural
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 3:24:04 am EDT from 64.13.117.74

7th
Kris - [plekopleko at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 2:46:17 am EDT from 24.137.192.172

6th!!
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 2:07:40 am EDT from 98.20.209.85

Fifth!
Spen
"Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz."
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 1:15:30 am EDT from 66.43.205.110

4TH!
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 1:11:33 am EDT from 70.230.150.190

Third. Wow, it's been a while.
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Don't hate me cause I'm a nerd, hate me cause that's all I am.
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 12:59:26 am EDT from 69.231.204.44

Second!
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 12:32:45 am EDT from 157.242.220.118

First?
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Mon, Oct 6, 2008 12:02:24 am EDT from 209.243.38.5