Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

I would not patronize this company, whether to get "Gargoyles" or anything else. Despite their claims that they provide DVDs of shows not currently available commercially, probably half of the DVDs they sell are partly or completely available at retail, a fact which could easily be discovered with a quick search of Amazon. They also seem to be taking the view that the onus is on the copyright holder to contact them and tell them to stop breaking the law. Greg W (or anyone who is in contact with him and can pass this along), is there any way you could make the various companies involved that you have contact with aware of this so that this site can at least be forced to stop selling the entire run of "Gargoyles" and "Spectacular Spider-Man"?

Mind you, generally have nothing against bootlegs of material that really is unavailable and will likely continue to be so for the foreseeable future. I bought a bunch of Miyazaki films as bootleg videos, never guessing that Disney would eventually release all of them on DVD in the US (at which point I bought the legitimate releases.) I got my husband a bootleg set of "The Real Ghostbusters" on DVD, but that's not going to stop me from handing my money to Time Life when they put out their amazing box set of the series. My problem is when people are putting out bootlegs which serve almost no purpose except to steal sales from the legitimate releases, which - as we know all too well - can be very damaging to the future of the property.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:33:42 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Greg = Christopher Nolan

Something big's commin up when he goes on vacation. ;)

I figure he's not in the position to talk to us. Why, we have to decide...
Brook
posted @ Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:55:35 pm EST from 84.191.228.129

Does anyone know why Greg stopped accepting questions? I figure he is on vacation or something. I hope so at least.
Monkey - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:50:59 pm EST from 70.245.20.49

"How good are the Graphics and Sound Quality on the DVDs?

Before ordering please make sure you understand that since these are not commercial packages, thousands of dollars have NOT
been spent to re-master the DVD sets. These collections are offered from one collector and fan to another and have been
amassed from various sources including film reels. Please take this into consideration. In the end ...Quality is subjective, but be
aware we have viewed countless collections over the years. We offer the best quality available anywhere!

The DVD Collector Box Sets offered by Agapetoons.com feature:
* Great Interactive DVD menus.
* Very nice graphics and sound. Most DVD sets feature graphic and sound quality from 7 - 8+ to 9 out of 10. Many are 9+!
* Fantastic DVD collector box/case with professional quality graphic and picture art.
* Wonderful professional quality picture art directly printed on the DVD. (Most cartoon re-sellers use "peel-off - stick-on" DVD
labels that get stuck in many DVD players. Our DVD sets are feature professional quality and workmanship!)
DVD General Info:

Before ordering, please be aware that the DVD's we sell are NOT commercially-produced recordings. These films and television
programs are not currently available on commercial DVD in the United States or Canada and are believed to be in public
domain.

If Agapetoons.com is wrong and you are officially involved with a title sold on this web site, and wish it removed from our site,
please send a cease and desist notification -- with credentials, along with the information necessary to contact you to the e-mail
address listed. (help@agapetoons.com)"

----

There you go.
Brook
posted @ Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:36:41 pm EST from 84.191.199.107

Doesn't sound legit, but this is what turns up as "Colectors items" on ebay later. :(

I know the exact same thing with Vinyl bootlegs. :(
Brook
posted @ Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:33:14 pm EST from 84.191.199.107

Kasei> Unless it's Buena Vista or other Disney affiliate, it's not likely a legit set.
Asatira
posted @ Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:01:44 pm EST from 68.190.20.172

I just stumbled across this site and wondered if anyone knew anything about it/about its legitimacy? http://agapetoons.com/Gargoyles.html

Apparently they're selling the complete gargoyles series on DVD? I'm wondering how this is possible or if it's legal. I was under the impression that Disney alone was releasing the DVDs...
Kasei - [okami_blade at hotmail dot com]
~Kasei
posted @ Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:37:42 pm EST from 71.170.75.149

EXACTLY!! :D
Brook
posted @ Sun, Nov 9, 2008 5:17:29 pm EST from 84.191.199.107

BROOK> <<Imagine how kickass it would be if Brooklyn would be #1 of Illuminati!! XD>>

Well, I suppose it would be on the level of the Chewbacca Defense.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Thirteenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"A good story should provoke discussion, debate, argument...and the occasional bar fight." ~ J. Michael Straczynski
posted @ Sun, Nov 9, 2008 4:32:21 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

2 Things that came up in my mind last night whilst thinking about it:

1.: Brooklyn DOES come across it during his Timedancing, and it will be the most epic moment of the entire show!!

2.: An immortal is #1 of the Illuminati, surely somebody we have seen yet.

Now, how many Immortals are there who could/would do this...

- Puck??
- Titania??
- Demona/Macbeth?? (Very!! Unlikely)
- Brooklyn whilst Timedancing??!!??!!

Uh... well, why not... Imagine how kickass it would be if Brooklyn would be #1 of Illuminati!! XD
Brook
posted @ Sun, Nov 9, 2008 3:58:38 pm EST from 84.191.199.107

With TimeDancing, it's possible that Brooklyn will come across the Eye of Odin at some point. And hey, who's to say that Demona never came across it during her long lifetime? Of course, Demona doesn't seem to have achieved much wisdom or insight if she did ever put it on.
Supermorff
posted @ Sat, Nov 8, 2008 5:13:07 pm EST from 86.158.3.84

Bluewyvern> I am partial to the Eye of Odin being my second favorite magical artifact, next to Titania's Mirror, but what a great observation. Yes, it struck me very deeply to see so much of internal Xanatos revealed! Astute of you, friend!

As for putting the Eye on other characters to see what would happen... >:) Would Demona be much different? I'd envision her as a more austere goddess persona where she believes truly without a doubt that her way is the absolute best course and is blinded by all else. She carries herself with grace, her inner fire turned to a sublime sense of right, her guilt turned outward to punish any alleged foe in her path. It seemed cool in my head anyway. I can see her. That, and she'd have lasers for eyes to zap any humans she wanted, lol.
Jade Griffin - [jade _ griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Foooooooood!!!"
posted @ Sat, Nov 8, 2008 11:29:01 am EST from 71.94.79.73

"Dear Mr. Weisman
I have read previously on this web site that basically all that is stopping you from doing a Gargoyles live action movie is that Disney owns the rights. How much money would it take to by the rights of Gargoyles from Disney?"

Now, if you happen to have so much money... then WHOA!!!!!!!!! :O You REALLY should contact Greg. But keep in mind, we're talking more then 5 0s here!!
Brook
posted @ Sat, Nov 8, 2008 9:46:05 am EST from 84.191.220.54

"Then I suppose PIT would be a good name for the group since it sounds close enough to PETA."

Well there is that and we don't really know enough about the PIT to know how they would best consider Gargoyle relations.

Margot with the Eye of Odin......Scary thought there.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail]
posted @ Sat, Nov 8, 2008 3:59:02 am EST from 69.54.209.20

If Margot had the Eye: There would be no place to run or hide 0.0
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Fri, Nov 7, 2008 11:09:03 pm EST from 71.239.117.121

Steven: Quoting Greg, "Disney would never sell the rights , and if they did, lowly me could never afford to buy them. And no one's sorrier about that than I am."

Nice thought though. Welcome to the board.
Ed
posted @ Fri, Nov 7, 2008 3:41:33 pm EST from 213.187.38.226

Dear Mr. Weisman
I have read previously on this web site that basically all that is stopping you from doing a Gargoyles live action movie is that Disney owns the rights. How much money would it take to by the rights of Gargoyles from Disney?
Steven Toby - [johnhandcock869 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 7, 2008 3:32:16 pm EST from 72.208.52.134

heh, what about Vinnie or Margot?.. I'd run the heck away if Margot ever got ahold of it ;).. not sure about Vinnie ..hmm
Starlioness
posted @ Fri, Nov 7, 2008 3:11:04 pm EST from 24.18.243.70

Then I suppose PIT would be a good name for the group since it sounds close enough to PETA.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 7, 2008 3:05:50 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

I'm sure we will se a pro-Gargoyles-team sooner or later. ;)
Brook
posted @ Fri, Nov 7, 2008 1:02:44 pm EST from 84.191.225.128

"So if there was to be a destructive, but well meaning group to support the gargoyles, what would be an appropriate name for them?"

Hmmm....That sounds tough. How about Peta or Greenpeace? They have a habit of going to extremes for the cause.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail]
posted @ Fri, Nov 7, 2008 12:52:36 pm EST from 69.54.209.21

Oh, and if Slepnir got it, he would have eight legs. :P
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."
posted @ Fri, Nov 7, 2008 10:14:47 am EST from 69.112.108.43

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!

If Brendan got it, he would gain the ability to turn invisible at will! Super conflict-avoidance powers. He would just creep away from Margot and leave her spluttering.
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."
posted @ Fri, Nov 7, 2008 10:08:59 am EST from 69.112.108.43

Eye of Odin> Personally, I probably could've only stood maybe one other episode of the Eye of Odin before it would've outlasted its storyline purpose. What I wonder is what it might've done to minor characters in the story (I'm always a big fan of the little guys who only get a little time on the show, but are cool characters anyway). Like, if Brendon had gotten it, would he finally have used it to show up Margot? If Robbins had gotten it, would he have the ability to see again? (I could see an interesting episode between him and Hudson if he wore it). Or even Matt Bluestone (who wasn't really that minor of a character, but still...), who might use it to do something about the illuminate. Just thoughts.
Charisma82
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.
posted @ Fri, Nov 7, 2008 2:47:28 am EST from 64.13.117.74

Demonskrye> Very nice idea. You know, I think I prefer my fic in treatment form, anyway. I think everyone should write like that -- saves on all the atrocious grammar and painful dialog that usually clutters up a good concept. (I'm not saying yours would be like that, btw. Just...woo. Fanfic, y'know?)

Personally, I've never missed the Eye of Odin. I think they did the best thing possible with it, which was actually associating it with Odin. (Although I would have enjoyed seeing more actual Odin-lore in the process.) I don't think the conceit of a talisman that "makes you more like yourself" by reducing complex characters to simple stereotypes really serves anyone particularly well storywise. It's the complexities that make characters interesting -- and make them who they are. The paradox of making someone more like themselves than they already are is obvious. Any one "essential" quality could be countered by one of a dozen others -- is Fox's nature essentially a beast? (Isn't everyone's?) I might have seen her as the opposite, a proud, calculating woman, some kind of ice queen. Or maybe her fairy nature could have asserted itself, and she could have turned into a capricious, spoiled brat, a trickster child. Each of those qualities is just as essential to her as any other.

And singling out a particular personality trait, while providing an (imo, not that interesting) antagonist for 22 minutes, doesn't really reveal anything, and robs us of the presence of the actual character for that 22 minutes. It served a good purpose in the Avalon arc, and gave us Eye of the Beholder, which was indeed a great episode (not for what it revealed about Fox's character, but surprise!, about Xanatos). Eye of the Storm was a bit tedious. As far as I'm concerned, it played its part. Yeah, I'm glad it's gone.
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."
posted @ Thu, Nov 6, 2008 10:13:37 pm EST from 69.112.108.43

Demonskrye> I'd actually like to read that fanfiction, it sounds interesting.

Just let us when (if) you ever post it.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Thu, Nov 6, 2008 9:11:15 pm EST from 75.60.198.163

Could the eye of odin be consideren a symbol or metaphor for drugs/alcohol BTW???
I ask because just the other day I was thinking about how most people, when they are drunk, show character traits which are pretty big, yet they keep down and controll when not drunken.
Brook
posted @ Thu, Nov 6, 2008 8:05:00 pm EST from 84.191.252.49

NAAG?

I dunno, lol.
Rebel
GOLIATH: I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING SHAKESPEAREAN NOW.
posted @ Thu, Nov 6, 2008 7:41:26 pm EST from 76.165.32.155

So if there was to be a destructive, but well meaning group to support the gargoyles, what would be an appropriate name for them?
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 6, 2008 7:19:46 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

Sounds like a great story idea, Demonskrye.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Nov 6, 2008 6:42:37 pm EST from 4.244.214.206

DEMONSKRYE - With or without the Eye, an "outspoken agitator" on behalf of the gargoyles would have been a lot of fun to see. I remember that one of the criticisms of the Goliath Chronicles was that it had all the anti-gargoyle humans portrayed as bad and all the pro-gargoyle humans portrayed as good. Now, while that's an understandable approach (since racism is wrong), there's still room in the Gargoyles Universe for pro-gargoyle humans who might go to dangerous and wrongful extremes on behalf of the gargoyles. (Indeed, we saw just that with the Captain of the Guard.) I remember Greg Bishansky's idea of a pro-gargoyle organization that could become just as violent as the Quarrymen.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Nov 6, 2008 6:41:01 pm EST from 4.244.214.206

Since I'll probably never actually write this fanfiction, I might as well share.

Working title is "Lex.exe." Sometime post "Hunter's Moon," Lex is watching Alex and feeling extremely bored. He's been thinking about all the adventures Goliath, Elisa, Angela, and Bronx had on the World Tour and feeling like his life is pretty dull by comparison. Puck, overhearing Lex's plight, decides that this is a good time to teach Alex about conjuring magical artifacts. By way of demonstration, Puck produces a replica of the Eye of Odin, designed to show anyone who uses it what would happen if they were to use the real Eye of Odin. Willing to try anything to relieve his boredom, Lex puts it on and is transformed into "Future Tense" cyborg Lex. Puck seems concerned; the Eye should only be showing Lex a vision of what his Eye of Odin experience would be like, not actually transforming him. But Lex isn't really listening. His cyborg body has all sorts of enhancements and he's eager to try the out.

Goliath is understandably upset when he sees Lex and demands that Lex get rid of the Eye. Lex argues that it's not the real Eye of Odin, so maybe it's not as dangerous. To prove his point, he takes the Eye off without any problem and turns back into his normal, flesh and blood self. After some further arguing, Goliath relents and allows Lex to keep the imitation Eye on the condition that he limit his use of it.

Out on patrol, Lex uses his cyborg abilities to aid the clan in protecting the city. He can access various maps and databases, zoom in his vision, hear sounds at street level while flying, and all kinds of other things. His brothers and Angela are impressed. They sing his praises to Goliath, who grudgingly admits that Lex's new body may be of some use to the clan. Lex later discovers that he can interface directly with computers, though doing so leaves his body powered down and unmoving. He starts using this newfound ability to battle the clan's enemies on the electronic front. He attacks Quarrymen linked bank accounts, hacks websites, leaves trails and plants evidence to lead the authorities to criminals. Lex starts spending more and more time wearing the Eye and more and more time in the computer.

Eventually, events reach a climax and Lex has to physically struggle to remove the Eye. When he succeeds, he find himself back in Alex's bedroom, no longer a cyborg. Alex looks worried and Puck is asking him how it went. The fake Eye worked exactly the way it was supposed to and Lex was only experiencing a vision of what wearing the real Eye might be like for him.

That's one idea, anyway.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 6, 2008 6:39:23 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

I, too, would like to know what would have happened if other characters had donned the eye. Demona, Brooklyn, Angela, Lex...I'd love to see what all of these characters would be like if they wore it. That's one thing that I always disliked about the episode Eye of the Storm--it effectively got rid of the Eye of Odin (at least, for the purposes of transforming the various characters), which I felt was wasteful.

Of course, I suppose you could argue that the whole oh-crap-we-need-to-get-the-Eye-away-from-this-character story has already been told several times and we don't need to see it again, but I personally disagree strongly. I wouldn't have minded a few more Eye-of-Odin episodes/issues at all, especially if the transformed character was one that I liked a lot. *sigh* Still, I suppose it's possible that it might (somehow) turn up again. I hope so.
Rebel
GOLIATH: I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING SHAKESPEAREAN NOW.
posted @ Thu, Nov 6, 2008 6:15:35 pm EST from 76.165.32.155

Eye of Odin> Here's a thought. What if Elisa put on the Eye of Odin and was split into two versions of herself, one of whom wants nothing to do with gargoyles and magic and everything else (and may even have no prior knowledge of these things) and just wants to live an ordinary human life, the other of whom is an outspoken agitator for gargoyle rights and protection, possibly to the point of putting herself and others in danger?
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 6, 2008 6:00:54 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Eye of Odin> Hmm. It would definitely depend on who is wearing it to determine its effect. Fox became a physical embodiment of her name's sake and lost a lot of her human identity in the process. You could read whatever you want into it about what it revealed about her. With the Archmage and Goliath, it acted in a way that more clearly reflected the wearers' inner-selves; the Archmage became more powerful and it allowed him to become more knowledgeable when he consumed the Grimorum, Goliath went into protector overload. I'm thinking, judging from the two later examples, it would depend on what character traits are deemed most important at the time, or the wearer's darkest secret. I could see Elisa doing a parallel version of the protector or warrior because that is also an important aspect of herself, and also being corrupted to go the extreme as well. Others, are a little harder to imagine because everyone is so complex. Who knows what noble and dark aspects could be personified.
Asatira
posted @ Thu, Nov 6, 2008 11:17:20 am EST from 68.190.20.172

This is a surprise...

Earlier today, I spent some time looking through files I backed up DVDs. I found a lot of files from a school I used to attend. Unknowingly, I came across what looks like Gargoyles character model sheets! I even found a drawing of Goliath that seems to have Keith David's signature on it!

Who'd have thought someone was sharing this stuff on a school's network drive and I barely find out today that I have this of all things...

Now I just need a way to share this stuff with everyone here...
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>*0*)> I can't believe I have these files...
posted @ Thu, Nov 6, 2008 1:53:09 am EST from 72.220.141.237

What happenned in my precint:

In m precint, we're blessed/cursed to use touch screen voting machines that make a paper trail. Naturally, one of my voting machines had to have its screen caliberted at the beginning of the day. One of my machines ran out of paper, and when I put paper back into it, it refused to work until a techician came by to reset it. Then, about 2 hours before the election was over with, I discovered I had 2 machines with paper jams. Joy. That was my election problems for the day. I am told in my county, paper jams on the machines were quite common.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 11:39:40 pm EST from 98.20.218.59

Whoops, I mean I hope it doesn't pass. Sorry, I was typing really, really fast, and was also in a hurry :(

bluewyvern: What troll? Where? I don't see one...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 9:41:47 pm EST from 71.239.117.121

Brook> I'm afraid you have triggered Godwin's Law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law

All> I'll have to second Demonskrye's plea: please, let's keep Station Eight a Politics-Free Zone. Unless it's gargoyle politics! The only leadership succession we need to discuss here is clan leaders and seconds...

Also, I forget, do we have banning here? Can we ban the troll?
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 9:07:24 pm EST from 69.112.108.43

Mmm, politics. I find that most people probably won't be able to tell a huge difference between how their lives were before and after the election. The candidates kept referencing some guy... Joe the Plumber was it? Well I think that's a generalization of the average working American citizen, and they're not going to be too concerned as long as they can work their 9-5 without being intruded on or otherwise being negatively affected.
SaxxonPike
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:20:14 pm EST from 96.42.42.25

Regarding the Eye of Odin, I think it not only amplifies one's physical features, but also their mentality. Those who are stronger in spirit would probably be affected less by it - notice the large difference in how Fox reacted to it as opposed to Goliath.
SaxxonPike - [saxxonpike at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:16:17 pm EST from 96.42.42.25

Whoa, what a day...

First off, yah, we're not supposed to talk a lot about politics in here, but I feel like I should say this once, in desregard of political beliefs:

VERY IMPORTANT:

In here, so many people today stated an opinion about the party that will rule their land that seemed a bit confused to me. Many have said "I don't like this guy!" or "There are 2 evils, but this time, I cannot decide which one is worse!" etc.

IT IS NOT IMPORTANT who rules a country, how he looks, what color his skin has, what sex he belongs to, what he prefers.

IT IS IPORTANT what somebody DOES!!

For example many people deemed a certain candidate years ago for being boring and expressed their dislike of him, and did not vote - yet this candidate would have assured that the climate of our planet earth might have been a bit better than it is now.

I'm from Germany, and a few decades ago, people voted for somebody who they thought to be a good leader, a good talker and a mn who tried to erase the cause of their problems - YET THEY DID NOT SEE how he also brought racism and fascism to this country, resulting in the second world war and... well, I guess I do not have to point it out.

WHAT I want to say is: Don't vote for the guy you think ismoe sympathetic to you, or the lesser of two evils. Read through what the guys have to say, read throug the parties programms!!

war or not war?
same sex marriage yes or no?
preservation of bio-ressources or not?
etc. etc. etc.

If you go through this, you might find that even a guy you thought off being boring has quite the answers to your issues.

And even still if you think they do not, then try to vote for a third party in the congress that is to your beliefes what the congress of your cpuntry needs the most.

Whatever you do, whatever party you vote: GET INTO IT, READ THEIR PROGRAMMS, try to talk to them (there are various ways to do this). Cause this is the most you can do to change your countrys coarse in the next years.

Thank you. :)

Now, back on topic.
Brook
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:10:09 pm EST from 84.191.232.28

Just watched "Eye of the Beholder" for the Halloween season, and it got me thinking...

Xanatos says that the Eye of Odin bestows the wearer with power and insight. We've seen what the eye can do (Fox, Archmage, & Goliath). So, what if one of the other characters from the Gargoyles universe (human, gargoyle, or faye) had put it on? Who do you think would've put it on intentionally or had it put on by accident? And, the big question, what would they have transformed into? Anyone have any ideas?
Charisma82
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:44:21 pm EST from 64.13.117.74

"...laws, penalties, assesments... that the people decide."
"You mean 'the humans decide'..."
-Elisa and Goliath

The politics we are discussing are all human in nature. Gargoyles have their own politics (though it isn't exactly ripe with bureacracy). Anyway, from we we stand in the GU now, gargoyles are not even recognized by human law as sentient. Actually, legally they don't exist at all yet. So Lex or Goliath or whoever need not worry about human laws affecting them.

Frankly, I'm gay myself, and I could care less if the government wants to recognize my marriage. I don't need a piece of paper to have a wedding or marry another dude.
I do, however, need that piece of paper to get the same legal protections and benfits that a straight couple does.

At least I do for now, anyway. Honestly, I don't think marriage of any kind needs to be recognized by the government at all. The government shouldn't be involved in any way in anyone's marriage, IMHO.

Obama represents a shift in American politics, but not much of one. I think the only way to truly change and fix America is revolution.

*gets off soapbox*
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:56:50 pm EST from 70.230.172.103

I completely agree with most of you about prop 8. Really.

All I was saying is, I don't think it's right to treat Lex (or any of the other Gargoyles, for that matter) as some kind of political poster-child for some view. Let's not politicize Gargoyles.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:49:21 pm EST from 76.165.34.215

I recommend that we not discuss the Prop. 8 issue in here. It's a hot potato issue and there's already a million other message boards and blogs full of discussions for anyone who wants to argue on the internet.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:14:21 pm EST from 76.205.124.227

Litwolf: I'm not arguing the merits of such an ideal. Just that there would be plenty of people (and one neighboring state) ready to sponsor a Proposition banning such activity. If you thought Obama was called a Marxist, wait until they get a load of the Gargoyles...
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:12:22 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

Lone Rider> Um, actually you don't want it to pass. If it passes then same sex marriages are banned.

Not to bring up politics, but I thought I should clarify.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Thirteenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"A good story should provoke discussion, debate, argument...and the occasional bar fight." ~ J. Michael Straczynski
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:05:12 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Frankly the lack of reproduction just strikes me as a flimsy excuse for persecuting homosexuals.

I mean you have many straight couples who fix themselves up to prevent childbirth. So why aren't they receiving persecution for their choices?
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:00:42 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

Landon > Why not? It would garentee that there are no orphans and multiple parents could better protect and care for kids.

I take back what I said before. There is no final tally for prop eight yet. Theyre still counting. There's still hope it could be defeated, which would stop them from amending the CA constitution to say that marriage is between a man and a woman. We'll know for certain tomorrow, I think. Im checking this site for updates, if anyone else cares to look: http://www.noonprop8.com/
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:19:30 pm EST from 209.243.38.9

I hope prop 8 passes. What gives them to right to ban same-sex marriage? Just because it's different? That's a stupid excuse...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:07:19 pm EST from 71.239.117.121

Gargoyle ideals like "children are raised by the clan rather than by their real parents"? That'd be enough for someone to fire up another Proposition, methinks.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:57:20 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

Rebel > Well, yes, obviously. I agree. I was just joking around with little Lex. And trying to make a point about how much I wish gargoyle ideals could be taught to the world.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:45:54 pm EST from 209.243.38.9

I doubt most gargoyles (gay or straight) would feel compelled to have some kind of official recognition of their marriage anyway.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:20:46 pm EST from 76.165.39.201

Ricky > Well said, my friend. I agree 100%.

Sadly, we must warn Lex to stay away from California. Proposition eight got passed and same-sex marriage in now banned. Where will Lex and Amp be able to be joined in their love now? I wish gargoyle could teach us their tolerance.

Back to SiC, I dont think there was must discussion of this but how does everyone feel about Coco being SiC in London? It surprised me a bit because she seems a bit impulsive. But Ive warned up to the idea more. I like her ^_^
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:28:07 pm EST from 209.243.38.9

Oh, boy...

Moving back to the important topics for this room (and to keep flaming down):
Lex> I hadn't really come in the room the last couple days, so I had some fun reading the discussions. I agree with a lot of what was said. Lex has his talents that have been useful to the team, and he's grown a lot. As has been pointed out, the Trio has will undergo a lot of changes that will alter how they see their relationships. At the beginning of the series, they were effectively adolescent best buds, the kind you see getting into trouble and having fun hanging out. I personally think there will still be the close brotherhood, but like alot of people, they start to diverge. And it can be seen as a good thing. I look forward to seeing how Lex will mature now that he has, for good and bad, to stand on his own more. He's the one closest to going through the awkwardness of modern human teenagers.

Second in commands> My thing with Talon is I do see him assigning someone to be his second, but probably in an informal way. More of a "if I'm gone, everyone reports to so-and-so" kind of way. Who he'd appoint is a little hard for me to decide, but most the most likely would be Delilah. Maggie is nice and all, but she probably doesn't see herself as much of a leader. Claw is out because he won't/can't talk. Delilah is very intelligent and is acting head of the clones, so it pretty much falls into place. Of course, there's always the possibility Talon could choose someone we haven't seen from the humans who live in the Labyrinth as a second. Alot of variables.
Asatira
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 12:07:47 pm EST from 68.190.20.172

The election is over, so I think we can now go back to discussing "Gargoyles" related issues. I really don't think it's the time to start comparing out political opinions, especially when we've been doing a reasonably good job of keeping them to ourselves up until now. If you want to discuss religion or politics, there are any number of places on the internet to do so. Anywhere else, my general policy is to assume that no one really cares what my thoughts on politics are and that my bringing them up is only going to get people who don't agree with me upset and start a pointless shouting match.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 12:02:27 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Thick headed, ignorant assholes
Kafka2009
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 11:31:31 am EST from 190.2.42.21

Here's a convenient place to see all the ballot measures that were voted on this time around:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/ballot.measures/

I'm pleased with some of the results, utterly disappointed with others.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 11:13:51 am EST from 76.165.38.187

Its sad that some people are so behind our times...sadly its most of humanity..GO DEMONA!!
Kafka2009
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 11:10:35 am EST from 190.2.42.21

Litwolf> I completely agree about Prop 8. I think it's really sad that in so many ways, we're moving forward, and the outcome of the election is proof of that. And yet there are still some who want to prevent equality; we're all human, we're all essentially the same, and we all love.

For two people to be able to stand up in front of their loved ones and pledge their love for each other is a special part of life, one that everyone should have the opportunity for. I don't believe that anyone should be refused their basic human rights, and marriage is one of them.
Ricky
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 10:48:52 am EST from 70.19.93.212

Im just glad the election is over, honestly. Now there's only one thing Im watching the voting on and that's Proposition Eight in CA. If you dont know what that is, very briefly, if passed, it will ban same-sex in California. MSN.com says that 52% are in favor of the passing said proposition and 48% against but theyre not done tallying votes. If it passes, I will be so mad. I dont even live in CA but I will go crazy. I cant stand people against same-sex marriage. For the sake of Lex and all other gay people in the world, I hope this proposition fails. (I apologize if anyone here is hoping for prop 8 to pass; I dont mean to offend. This particular issue drives me up a wall.)

Anyway, Rebel, I completely agree with you about Angela being chosen as SiC should the need for a new SiC come about. She's got experience and she's tough. She could handle it no problem.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 9:32:52 am EST from 209.243.38.9

Oh geeez.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 9:24:37 am EST from 70.230.172.103

Everyone is free to have their own politcal believs, I suppose. It goes far from "liking" or "not-liking" though
Kafka2009
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 9:14:14 am EST from 190.2.42.21

Yay, the county's officially skrewed. Wheee....

Sorry for people who like Obama, but I just can't stand him...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:15:57 am EST from 71.239.117.121

YEEESS AT LEAST SOMEONE WHO SEEMS TO HAVE FEELINGS ON THE PRESIDENTIAL CHAIR!!!!!!!!! Lets hope it doesnt SO happen, that a terrorist comes in a kills him...(aterroristwhomaymagicallygetpasstheguardsonthewhitehouseandwhoselastnameisSmith)
Kafka2009
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:25:57 am EST from 190.2.42.21

Demonskrye: Yeah, I figured, hence my helpful little ":P" at the end of the post, perfectly demonstrated at the end of this sentence :P
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:00:10 am EST from 157.242.221.238

Lonerider : Correct.
Spen
"Ad-lib excitement."
posted @ Wed, Nov 5, 2008 12:36:24 am EST from 66.43.205.110

I think Obama just won the election... At least that's what my Mom said...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 11:14:25 pm EST from 71.239.117.121

*an exhausted figure walks into the cr. Upon inspection, this figure is revealed to be dph, tired after working in the general election*

For those of you who were blessed/cursed not to see me at the Gathering 2006, I may be in my state paper, the Arkansas Democrat Gazette. It turns out that as I was leaving my car to return election supplies to the county clerk's office, a photographer from the Arkansas Democrat Gazette was getting out and asked to take my picture delivering supplies. Naturally, I said yes. So, there might be picture of a "Daniel Hightower" in Faulkner County returning supplies. 519 people voted in my precint. I already knew OBama would lose my precint based on recent ads targeted at whites. Yes, the day had problems such as . .

*dph collapses as he falls asleep trying to remember details of the election day.*
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 10:41:41 pm EST from 98.20.218.59

I can't vote but i'll be voting next year for a Prime Minister but there all idiots. Tony Blair was the best PM.
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 8:29:09 pm EST from 64.12.117.134

GO VOTE IF YOU CAN!!!
Battle beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 7:44:10 pm EST from 75.152.150.233

L.T. > Well, I suppose you're right. There were definitely other things that I could have voted for today. I guess I just plain forgot about all of that, what with the presidential election looming so large. I suppose I should have voted. Oh well.

Manhattan clan's future second/leader > I forgot to comment on this when I posted this morning, but I don't think Brooklyn being older than Goliath will be an issue for a long, long time. Brooklyn will only be about 80 (I think?), which is still pretty young for a gargoyle. So, I don't think that Goliath, Brooklyn himself, or any other member of the clan will be in any hurry to replace Brooklyn with a younger second any time soon.

The way I see it, one of these things will happen:

1. Goliath dies before Brooklyn's age ever becomes an issue, Brooklyn takes over as the clan leader, and appoints another clan member as his second, most likely Angela.

2. Goliath lives for a good long time and at some point, someone (maybe even Brooklyn himself) convinces Goliath that the clan needs a younger second. Goliath appoints Angela, or some other clan member. I doubt that Brooklyn would take it personally.

3. Brooklyn dies an early death, before his age ever becomes an issue. Goliath is forced to choose a new second. He chooses Angela, or some other clan member.

The reason I think that Angela will be the leader who immediately follows Goliath or Brooklyn is because, out of Broadway, Lexington, and Angela, I honestly think Angela has the most leadership potential. However, I suppose it's possible that the leader who follows Goliath or Brooklyn might be a clan member that we haven't met yet, like Nashville or Tachi. I suppose it all depends on how old everyone is when it comes time for the clan to need a new leader/second. Personally I'm hoping that Angela (or maybe Tachi) will get to lead the clan at some point--I'd love for a female to lead the Manhattan clan for a while.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 7:29:23 pm EST from 76.165.37.214

And if there was any swing dancing involved, my candidate would win in a landslide. :)
Spen
"Ad-lib excitement."
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 6:27:06 pm EST from 66.43.205.110

A ballet competition WOULD make the election more interesting. Tonight on "Dancing with the Candidates"...
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 5:08:23 pm EST from 76.205.124.227

L.T. Williams: There's always a ton of stuff on US ballots. Here's a sample of the two-page ballot I voted on this morning:
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~thom1576/ballot1.png
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~thom1576/ballot2.png
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 4:01:06 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

Ballot. Not ballet. Ballot. Sorry, all you dancers...
L.T. Williams
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 1:39:38 pm EST from 71.93.81.240

Rebel - Just curious, but is the presidential election the only item on your ballet?
L.T. Williams
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 1:37:41 pm EST from 71.93.81.240

Litwolf> The mutates won't NEED to breed if Sevarius keeps cranking them out at this rate...
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 1:03:35 pm EST from 69.112.108.43

Lex > I was always aware that, in the long run, he would make a company with Xanatos and get more involved with technology. But I never really thought about it as him withdrawing from his Clan and immersing himself in the human world. Not that he's abandoning his Clan, but it's plain to see why he'll feel so left out. It's such a shame he cant just jump to the realization that he's gay and be happy with Amp ^_^

Talon's second > A few have said that Talon and the other mutates dont think of themselves as gargoyles and therefore are not a Clan. True but the Labyrinth Clan will eventually become a founding Clan of the Gargoyle Nation. Now, there's not enough mutates to sustain a breeding population of mutates so maybe there will be no mutates down the road and it will become a fully gargoyle Clan. So maybe we're still a long way off from considering the Labyrinth Clan to be an actual Clan of gargoyles but one day they will.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 12:26:42 pm EST from 209.243.38.9

Regarding Lexington > I believe that Greg W has stated before that Lexington is NOT insecure about his size...but frankly, that's something I've always disagreed with. I think he's probably insecure about a lot of things, his size being one of them. I think that after Brooklyn returns from his timedancing, he's going to feel very, very alone.

Delilah as second > I think Delilah is really the only person down there that Talon could choose, unless he chooses a human. I don't think Maggie is suited for leadership, and Claw certainly can't lead if he refuses to talk. And Delilah already seems to be the de facto leader of the gargoyles in the Labyrinth clan, if the events of Bash are any indication.

Voting > I personally don't plan to vote, but the comments of Greg B and others who encouraged us to vote don't offend me at all. The reason I'm not voting this time around is because, normally, one candidate seems to emerge as the "lesser of two evils". But this time around, I think they both suck horribly, and I can't decide who is the lesser of the two evils. I can't believe that we have a country with some 300 million people in it, and THESE TWO are the best we can come up with. I vote in most elections, but this time around, I'm sitting it out. (I hope this was sufficiently non-political).
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 10:33:28 am EST from 76.165.34.191

Matt> Maybe I wasn't reading carefully enough, but I don't think anyone has said "vote or die" or anything along those lines in thi week's comment room. I agree that a person can make a choice not to vote and have good and valid reasons for doing so, but I don't think that makes it wrong for people to encourage others to go out and vote. My personal feeling is that the problem with not voting as a form of protest is that unless you make your voice heard in some other way, there isn't really any way for people beyond your friends and family to separate your decision not to vote as a form of protest from other people's decision not to vote for reasons of laziness or other less well thought out reasons. I respect your friends' right to choose not to vote and I certainly would not question their patriotism. (It takes a lot to get me to do that.) But fear of offending someone who made a personal choice not to vote isn't going to stop me from expressing my opinion that I think people should go out and vote. Yes, it's a free country, and that means that I have the right to say "Get out and vote" and anyone listening has the right to say "No thanks. I'll let my voice be heard in other ways."

bluewyvern> I think you may have hit the nail on the head. I was thinking that saying that Lex has more of a "dark side" than the rest of the Trio may be a little harsh just as saying the Broadway was "deeper" than his brothers may have given the wrong impression. I was also wondering if maybe part of Lex's issue is that of the three rookery brothers, he's the one who feels the most like he needs to prove himself. He's physically the smallest and though his technological prowess has proved particularly useful with the clan's sudden move to the 20th century, it's only occasionally of use in an actual fight. (Lex may have been more bummed than anyone when the helicopter was dropped from the show.) He may have thought that brokering an alliance between his clan and the Pack would be his moment to shine, but it soon went horribly wrong. The idea that he's insecure and looking to prove himself could also explain why he was so into pursuing Angela initially, even when he didn't really feel the attraction his brothers did. He may not have realized it, but he wanted to win more than he wanted to be with Angela. And as you point out, life may be getting difficult for him as Brooklyn's return from his adventures in time signals the end of the Trio as a trio. Brooklyn has matured 40 years and has a mate a kids to keep him busy. Broadway was already starting to focus more on his relationship with Angela. But unless his friendship with Amp turns into something more, Lex will not have had any such unique and dramatic changes in his life. He may realize that what he's feeling is different from the way Brooklyn felt about Broadway's relationship with Angela. He's not jealous in the same way. More than anything, he just feels very much alone.

Liwolf> I think we've discussed this before, but my personal feeling is that it's going to be a while before the issue of Brooklyn staying on as second-in-command comes up. Though seconds are generally younger than the leader, I think the main concern is that the second be someone who is fit to lead the clan should the leader be unable to do so. As Greg B mentions, it probably was quite rare for a leader to die naturally and pass leadership on to the second that way, though this may have become more common in modern times. Given the warrior lifestyle of most clans, there could easily be scenarios where the second died before the leader or where both died, forcing the clan to pick a new hierarchy. So having a younger second is only useful to a point. I don't think the age difference between Brooklyn and Goliath is going to be a concern anytime soon, but if both gargoyles seem to be living long lives and have no reason to believe they might not continue to do so, I think Brooklyn would approach Goliath and offer to step down as second so the job can be passed on to a younger gargoyle who will be able to lead the clan when both he and Goliath are gone.

As for the Labyrinth, Delilah is the leader of the Labyrinth gargoyles, so she would seem like a good choice for Talon's second, should he have one. But I don't know that we've seen enough of how the Labyrinth society works to know how this might play out. I don't think we know for certain yet if the gargoyles and the mutates all consider themselves one big clan or if the gargoyles are more of an autonomous group within the Labyrinth society.

Phoenician> I think Greg B was just copying all of the events in the timeline that occurred in between the events of "Upgrade," in part pointing out that a lot of time passes between scenes of this single episode. I doubt the Haida tribe's decision to leave Queen Florence Island had any effect on the Manhattan Clan prior to the World Tour stop there, but it does give you a sense of what else was going on in the world while Goliath was continuing to put off choosing a second.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 8:42:38 am EST from 146.115.115.33

I really like everyone's thoughts on Lexington. Very interesting stuff. Good conversation this week.

So, I hate to even say this, but I feel I should. In an hour or so I'm going to head to my polling place on my way to work and I'm going to vote. A lot of you in here and a lot of people in the country are going to vote today. Wonderful. Great. We are all exercising a right. That is cool.
But we are not performing some sort of "civic duty". There is no reason people should feel pressured to vote. The whole "Vote or Die" mentality is nonsensical and pointless. I don't agree that laziness is a good reason not to vote, but if someone chooses not to vote, I feel that is a perfectly reasonable choice. I know of more than one person who refuse to vote on grounds of political protest. These are some of the most patriotic people I've ever met. They are not being lazy or shirking on some civic duty. They are not making a bad choice, just a different one. I'm going to vote because I want my voice heard. Some people choose not to vote as their own way of making their voice heard. Neither of us makes much of a difference in the grand scheme of things, but in large numbers either of us would and will.
So lay off the "Vote or die" silliness, please. Lets encourage Americans to be patriotic and exercise their ability to do what they want, not pressure them to do something that perhaps they don't want to. This is supposed to be a free country afterall.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 7:47:31 am EST from 70.230.172.103

Lex is going to have a tough time of it pretty soon. He's already a little insecure, as evidenced by his reaction to the Pack's betrayal...I think Demonskrye hit something when she said Lex is angry over being made to look foolish. We see the same impulse when he reacts to Brentwood's defection, saying he's making him look bad...Lex is so sensitive to how others perceive him that he thinks the actions of his clone reflect on him.

I know Greg refuses to quantify these things, but I think Lex is more intelligent and more prone to reflection and introspection than the others. This can lead to anxiety over his perceived status in the clan, and bitterness over his failures. Future Tense showed that he does perhaps have a dark side. I think this will manifest itself most directly in Brentwood's future, but it reflects on Lex, too.

Lex's trial is coming. Brooklyn's timedancing detour will mark the definitive break in the Trio's relationship, with each of the other two brothers having found mates and new priorities, and Brooklyn now additionally removed by his new advanced age and prolonged absence from the group. Now Lex is the odd one out, the only one who hasn't moved past the adolescent state, having lost the reliable camaraderie of his brothers without any new social context to replace it. On top of that, he feels pressure to find a mate of his own but doesn't even know his own orientation, which piles on new challenges. I imagine that concurrently with all this, Brentwood will be acting up, making Lex "look bad" and begin to seriously wonder about himself.

Lex's skills and intrests set him at a further remove from the center of clan life. His affinity for technology and complex systems is difficult for the others to grasp or relate to -- he's like the lonely tech geek who lives in the basement and to whom everyone else comes when they need something, because they know that he's mastered arcane knowledge that they can't pretend to understand and don't really want to know anything about, but his techy tech stuff can be useful. What does he really have in common with the others? He relates better to the humans and the beast than he does strong, silent warrior types like Goliath and Hudson, or his brothers, who are too busy being boyfriends and family men to just hang like they used to. His new best friend is a baby. A superintelligent magical one, sure, but still a baby. We know in the future he seems to be more involved in the human world than clan affairs, starting a corporation and working closely with the Xanatoses. He just relates to them better.

I think he has a pretty positive future down the line, but in the near future, Lex's life is about to get hard.

As far as Brooklyn goes, I think he may suggest that Goliath replace him with someone younger, but I don't think Goliath would ever initiate the discussion. He was the one who wanted Hudson as second, so the age of his second is clearly not foremost in his mind. I think his first impulse would be to appreciate Brooklyn's maturity and experience, valuing him more as a second, rather than start worrying about his age. But I do think it will be brought up. Maybe even by Hudson.

I think Delilah for Labyrinth second in command sounds exactly right. But then again, Talon is not a gargoyle. I wonder if he'll want to run his clan like one. I don't think he even thinks of it as a proper "clan" -- I think he called it that just for effect, the same way Elisa might call her nuclear family a "clan" to draw a parallel to the gargoyles. But that doesn't mean that she thinks it's *actually* a clan -- it's a family. I think Talon looks on the Labyrinth as more of a band of refugees, including mutates, gargoyles, and humans alike in the group, and would consider it more of a democratic gang than a traditional gargoyle social unit (a foreign culture that none of the Labyrinth members ever belonged to).
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 3:21:10 am EST from 208.194.97.9

Election Day: As a student in Poltiical Science who constantly follows - well, everything - and will be helping conduct exit-polls tomorrow, I TRULY second Greg X's post of taking the time to go out to vote but also to please, please, PLEASE not bring any of it to this site. I quite prefer this CR to be a nice haven from the everything-politics which can be easily be found essentially everywhere else on the net.

I may not post often myself, but I do enjoy reading others' comments, especially when it's a good topic.

Now that I'm off with that note . . . .

Brooklyn-post-TimeDance: If anything, the potential tension between Goliath and Brooklyn due to Brookyln being the leader of his own small family would be more of a factor to Goliath picking a new second than just the simple fact that Brooklyn's older. Though I do think Goliath would see Brooklyn's journey as a positive influence.

Lex: Interesting stuff regarding Lexington . . . while I also don't think he'll go evil ala Future Tense but I do wonder if he may do something regretable, as Antiyonder mentioned. With his growing relationship with Alex as well as his past with the Pack - knowing Greg Weisman - anything can happen.

TANGENT: This made me laugh . . . .

"November 27th. On Queen Florence Island, the Haida hold a tribal meeting and most of the band votes to abandon the Island, which has been dying off for some time.

. . . In light of all that, I think we need to factor other events."

Maybe in the BIG picture, but I can't see the Haida Tribal meeting playing an influence in the selection of Brooklyn becoming the SiC. :P
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Nov 4, 2008 1:34:08 am EST from 157.242.216.244

Greg B > All the Clans we've seen have SiC's who are younger than their Leaders. Also, this post answered by Greg W agrees for a younger SiC even if we know Goliath is not going to die of old age: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2292

Another question of leadership: do you think Talon has picked a SiC in the Labrynth? I always pictured him picking Dehlila. More thoughts? Im asking for a lot of thoughts on stuff. Sorry, Im a bit bored ^_^
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Mon, Nov 3, 2008 11:19:18 pm EST from 192.146.226.148

Litwolf> <<Since SiC's have to be younger to take over for an aging leader, do you think Goliath will have to pick a new SiC?>>

When was it ever said that they have to be younger? If anything, I think Hudson is a rare exception as I doubt many gargoyles die from old age, especially considering that this clan is from the Dark Ages and lead violent lives.

That and we know Goliath is not dying from old age.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Thirteenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"A good story should provoke discussion, debate, argument...and the occasional bar fight." ~ J. Michael Straczynski
posted @ Mon, Nov 3, 2008 10:54:42 pm EST from 66.214.184.152

I mailed in my absentee ballot already. My first time voting! ^_^

Anyway, back to the gargoyle leaders, you all make good points, especially with the timeline supplied by Greg B. I always forget that other stuff happened during the month of leadership decision-making. I know Greg W hates to play the 'what if' game but I have always wondered whether Brooklyn would have gotten a chance to be Second-in-Command and Leader if the Clan was still stationed at Wyvern Castle. And Gabriel for that matter; maybe he would have been Brooklyn's SiC. Then again, there were many other gargoyles about; maybe there's a garg even better at leadership duty than Brooklyn. Any thoughts or ideas?

Also, I asked this question to Greg W and he said that it would indeed be an issue but not one we would see in the comics that have yet to be released. When Brooklyn comes back from his TimeDance, he's fourty years older. That puts him twenty years older, one generation older, than his leader Goliath. Since SiC's have to be younger to take over for an aging leader, do you think Goliath will have to pick a new SiC? If so, I think he might choose Angela, given that she was SiC in Avalon. Thoughts on this subject as well?
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Mon, Nov 3, 2008 10:45:22 pm EST from 192.146.226.148

Off topic. I know I often say don't bring up politics in here, and I still feel that way, so I am making this as non-political as possible.

Tomorrow, go out and vote. It is our civic duty. I am not going to tell you who to vote for. I honestly don't care who you vote for, that is a personal and private decision. But, vote! It is important. Your vote is the only way this whole thing can work.

Or, look at it this way, if you don't vote, you can't complain. So, if you're for Obama or McCain. Barr or Nader. Stephen Colbert or Ron Paul. Or, if you're writing in Greg Weisman. Doesn't matter to me. I encourage all of you to get out and vote.

Let freedom ring.

Note: I am not asking you to come back and report who you voted for or who you intend to vote for. Just vote! ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Thirteenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"A good story should provoke discussion, debate, argument...and the occasional bar fight." ~ J. Michael Straczynski
posted @ Mon, Nov 3, 2008 10:33:48 pm EST from 66.214.184.152

I wouldn't go that far, Antiyonder...

This whole second in command among the Trio thing makes me think of Hunter's Moon when Brooklyn retained his cool until he realized the person breaking inot Xanatos' warehouse was Demona... "So much for the element of surprise!" So, clearly he can still get all riled up when Demona is involved, but we all have emotions. Certainly we've seen Goliath make bad descisions because his feelings got in the way of his reasoning. Look how he risked the clan's safety for so long sticking around the Eyrie Building in Season One. It really comes down to the question of what makes a good leader. I'm not sure, but I will say that during the battle at Xanatos' warehouse, we did see Brook order Lexington to take care of Broadway and Bronx while he engaged Demona. He might've been focused on her, but at the same time he didn't lose focus on what is important, protecting his clan.

Just some thoughts. What a great conversation to have on the eve of Election Day (USA). Among gargoyles, what makes a good leader? Everyone is flawed. What sets a leader apart?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
posted @ Mon, Nov 3, 2008 9:43:35 pm EST from 70.230.172.103

JM> When you see Satan ice skating or Superman drinking lemonade mixed with Kryptonite, that's when Volume 2 will come out.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 3, 2008 9:33:11 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

HEEEEEEEEEERE'S Jonny...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari
posted @ Mon, Nov 3, 2008 9:32:18 pm EST from 71.239.117.121

When is Gargoyles Season Two, Volume Two going to get released on DVD? How will we get Gargoyles Season Two, Volume Two released on DVD to complete the entire series?
Jonny Modlin - [jmodlin210 at gmail dot com]
Jonny Modlin
posted @ Mon, Nov 3, 2008 8:55:21 pm EST from 76.28.91.190

You could make the "goes berserk" argument for any of the Trio, though. Maybe if Demona had been down there, Brook would've lost his cool. Maybe if the Pack had been waving around Xanatos' guns, Broadway would've lost it. Ultimately, Brook is the second because he's the best choice.
Meg
posted @ Mon, Nov 3, 2008 8:25:28 pm EST from 70.128.224.78

Another thing about Lex--someone mentioned that, of the Trio, Lex is the one who seems to have a "dark side". I would definitely agree with this--he's still one of the good guys, but I think he's the most homicidal, and perhaps the most ruthless...and more than a little bit lacking in caution and discretion.

Take "Turf", for example. Lex is the one who foolishly tried to take on the hovercraft by himself, thereby endangering both himself and Angela. Also, when he and Angela attacked the hovercraft towards the end of the episode, he pushed that guy out of the hatch, even though he realistically had NO WAY of knowing that Broadway was going to swoop down and save him. It's very strange that even though he supposedly wasn't attracted to Angela, he seemed to be the most competitive (within that single episode, at least). Brooklyn and Broadway were competitive as well, but their competitiveness seems muted compared to Lex's.
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Nov 3, 2008 7:02:26 pm EST from 76.165.39.229

Let's look at the timeline here too, it wasn't just the events of "Upgrade" that month.

From the GargWiki, provided by Greg:

**************

November 15th. The Pack attempts to rob a bank. The gargoyles try to stop them. Goliath is badly injured - allowing the Pack to escape. Hudson informs Goliath that he needs to choose one of the Trio to be his Second-in-Command.

November 16th. The Pack is approached by the Coyote robot's severed head. On Xanatos' behalf, the head offers the Pack the opportunity to be upgraded by using genetic engineering, cybernetics, armor and robotics. They agree to differing degrees. While back at the Eyrie Building, Fox & Xanatos begin a game that will eventually pit the gargoyles and Pack against each other. Meanwhile, Peter & Diane Maza confront Elisa about Derek Maza's disappearance. Elisa talks them out of filing a police report on her brother.

November 17th. Early in the afternoon, Fox wires a down payment to Preston Vogel's Swiss bank account, securing his services for her hostile effort to take over Halcyon Renard's Cyberbiotics company. That evening, Cyberbiotics launches Fortress-2. Despite Elisa's concern, Goliath follows the airship to protect it, but he is viewed as a threat and is captured by Renard's cybots. Meanwhile, Fox receives test results from her doctor, confirming she is pregnant with Xanatos' child.

November 18th. At the behest of Fox, the cybots are reprogrammed by Preston Vogel to sabotage Fortress-2. Goliath and Renard join forces to defeat them and save the ship. In the end, Vogel has a change of heart and assists. Early that morning, Fox confronts Renard, informing her father of her pregnancy. Owen learns from Xanatos that Fox is pregnant and begins making preparations for a possible attack from the Children of Oberon.

November 20th. The Guardian departs Avalon to see if it is safe for the Avalon Clan to leave the island. Avalon sends him to Wyvern Hill, where he sees that Castle Wyvern is now gone.

November 21st. Matt Bluestone meets with Martin Hacker and gets information about Mace Malone's stepson Jack Dane. Later, at the precinct house, Matt realizes that Elisa's lying to him about something. He gives her the opportunity to question Dane with him, but she passes. ("Revelations") Meanwhile in Wyvern, Tom hikes to a nearby village and learns from the locals that the castle wasn't demolished, but taken apart and shipped, lock, stock & gargoyle, to Manhattan -- where it was placed at the top of a "skyscraper."

November 22nd. Matt questions Jack Dane and gets a lead on Mace Malone. Just before sundown, he confronts Elisa in the Clock Tower about her lies. She puts him off again. ("Revelations") In Scotland, Tom hikes back up Wyvern Hill and spends some time reminiscing. He even searches the Archmage's caverns.

November 23rd. Matt finds and confronts Mace Malone at Pine Lawn Cemetery. Malone offers Matt an Illuminati membership on the condition that he pass a loyalty test. As a show of good faith, Malone tells Matt about the gargoyles and Elisa's involvement with them. Matt stews about the information for most of the night, i.e. for most of his shift with Elisa. ("Revelations") The ghosts of Hakon and the Captain hear Tom talking to himself. They discover that Goliath is possibly still alive. Tom returns to Avalon to discuss this latest news with the Magus and Princess Katharine.

November 24th. Matt Bluestone confronts Elisa Maza about the gargoyles at the end of their shift. They return to the Clock Tower, but not before sunrise. Elisa promises to introduce Matt to the gargoyles at sundown. Matt meets with Mace Malone again, who tells him that the way to prove his loyalty is to bring a gargoyle to the Hotel Cabal. Later, Elisa introduces Matt to the Manhattan Clan. He and Goliath arrange to fool Mace at the Hotel Cabal. After they arrive, they are quickly separated, and Goliath is put through the Hotel's paces by Mace. ("Revelations")

November 25th. Together, Matt Bluestone and Goliath turn the tables on Mace Malone, trapping him in the Hotel Cabal. Later that morning, Martin Hacker reveals he's been a member of the Illuminati all along. He welcomes Matt into the Society as a new member. ("Revelations")

November 27th. On Queen Florence Island, the Haida hold a tribal meeting and most of the band votes to abandon the Island, which has been dying off for some time.

November 28th. Elisa Maza, Broadway and Lexington are lured to Long Island after midnight by a false tip. They are assaulted by a creature that appears to be Goliath. That morning, mercenaries hired by Anton Sevarius steal a stone Thailog from David Xanatos. After sunset, they deliver their prize to Sevarius on an oil rig just off the coast of Long Island. Not long after, Elisa, Goliath, Broadway and Lex return to Long Island to investigate Goliath's mysterious look-alike. They find a Gen-U-Tech Systems tracking device. Meanwhile, Xanatos receives a ransom call demanding twenty million dollars in exchange for the creature. He and Owen Burnett quickly deduce that Sevarius is behind the gargoyle-napping. At Gen-U-Tech, Lexington and Broadway discover the truth about Goliath's clone Thailog. ("Double Jeopardy") Meanwhile, in Scotland, Xanatos' security team begins searching for the Loch Ness Monster.

November 29th. 2:00am. David Xanatos arrives at the oil rig with the ransom money. He confronts Anton Sevarius but quickly realizes Sevarius believes Xanatos himself is behind the scheme. It is soon revealed that Thailog has been playing everyone against each other from the beginning. He captures Sevarius, Xanatos, Goliath and Elisa Maza. All four escape, but Thailog is seemingly killed when the rig blows up. However, the next morning, Xanatos realizes Thailog escaped with the money. ("Double Jeopardy")

December 5th. The two Archmages reunite outside Avalon with the Weird Sisters, who have brought Demona, Macbeth, the Eye of Odin, the Phoenix Gate and The Grimorum Arcanorum. The three talismans are given to the "younger" of the two Archmages, and he is transformed into a double of his future self. They enter Avalon and prepare to attack its inhabitants.

December 10th. Talon, Maggie the Cat, Fang and Claw return to David Xanatos and take up residence at the Eyrie Building.

December 14th. The trio have grown steadily more at odds over Goliath's inability to choose one of them as a Second. They have begun competing to see who can stop the most street crime. Elisa, Goliath, Hudson and Bronx are captured by a newly upgraded Pack. Coyote has a new robot body. Hyena & Jackal are now cyborgs. Wolf is a mutate. And Dingo has new battle armor. ("Upgrade") Meanwhile, Halcyon Renard, who had been searching for some means to fight the disease that is killing him, discovers an incantation that will transfer his soul into the Golem of Prague.

December 15th. The trio realize that the rest of the clan is missing and -- utilizing a tip from Fox and a plan from Brooklyn -- manage to find the Pack and rescue their friends. Coyote-II is destroyed, and Dingo, Jackal, Hyena and Wolf are left for the police. (And thus Fox wins the little game she was playing against David Xanatos.) Goliath chooses Brooklyn as his Second-in-Command. ("Upgrade")

*******

In light of all that, I think we need to factor other events.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Thirteenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"A good story should provoke discussion, debate, argument...and the occasional bar fight." ~ J. Michael Straczynski
posted @ Mon, Nov 3, 2008 6:16:55 pm EST from 66.214.184.152

It does make me wonder, while Lex may not take over the world like in Future Tense, I do wonder if his grudge against the rest of the Pack would cause him to do something regretable.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 3, 2008 6:11:15 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

Interesting. It's been a long time since I watched "Upgrade" and I don't think I really caught that. So the episode is less about Brooklyn proving his leadership abilities to Goliath and more about him convincing his brothers that he's the right garg for the job. Or re-convincing, rather, since it seems like they already kind of agreed on this subconsciouesly before the issue of naming a second was raised an ego took over. I guess that Goliath's view of what happened is less that Brooklyn came up with the plan that saved the day and more that all three of the young gargoyles were able to put aside their bickering and the competition to win the role of second in order to work together and save the day, proving to Goliath that they're all mature enough to handle his naming one of them as his second.

I had kind of wondered if Lex got a raw deal in that the antagonists in "Upgrade" were the Pack, which puts him at a disadvantage. But that's not really fair to Brooklyn. He's not just chosen as the second-in-command because his brothers aren't as capable of filling the role; he gets picked because he has qualities that make him a good leader.

I've also been thinking that out of the three members of the Trio, Lex is the one who is the most angry about what happened to him during the "Trio trilogy" ("Thrill of the Hunt," "Temptation," and "Deadly Force"). Of course all three of them get angry that some point, but their reactions in general are very different and very telling. Brooklyn is not going to be a big fan of Demona anytime soon(or at least before he visits the year 2198), but he accepts that he had a role in betraying Goliath, owns up to it, and apologizes to his leader. Broadway is so devastated after accidentally shooting Elisa that he can't even face his clan. But he confesses in time to save Dracon from Goliath's misdirected vengeance and apologizes for what he did repeatedly. Lex gets angry and stays angry. Deep down, I think he knows that he's partly angry with himself for being so naive and trusting, but he's largely directed that anger outward at the Pack for tricking him and making him look foolish. He has managed to calm down some with time and I think bonding with Fox over Alex will be good for him. But getting hung up on personal grievances may ne part of his character for a long while yet and something we'll have to deal wiih as he ages.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 3, 2008 6:07:37 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Another important point from the memo:

" 15. Back at the clock tower, Goliath realizes that tonight's events only prove what Hudson has been saying all along. He must choose a second in command. He's had a choice in mind for weeks, but has been reluctant to reveal it, because he was afraid that it would drive a wedge between the trio. But tonight they worked together and saved the clan. He has to trust that they are mature enough to handle this. He chooses Brooklyn. (This without being aware of who spear-headed tonight's success.) The others are genuinely happy for Brooklyn. He proved himself to them. They take their places outside and Brooklyn looks across the city. A siren wails. He shakes his head and tells Goliath to be careful. He's in no hurry to take his place. They turn to stone."

I had always assumed that Goliath knew about Brooklyn coming up with the plan that the trio used in "Upgrade". But apparently, he didn't. He chose Brooklyn even though he didn't know that Brooklyn came up with the plan that they used to free Goliath, Hudson, and Bronx. The purpose of "Upgrade" was not to firmly establish Brooklyn's leadership skills in Goliath's mind (Goliath already knew)--it was to firmly establish Brooklyn's leadership skills in the eyes of the audience. In that regard, it was more for the audience's benefit. Although, it did prove to Goliath that the trio were a great team and that choosing Brooklyn wouldn't divide them.

Anyway, I don't think it would have mattered much who the villain in "Upgrade" was. It's true that Lex was at a disadvantage, but even if the villain had been someone like Dracon or Xanatos, Brooklyn still would have emerged as the natural leader with the right priorities.
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Nov 3, 2008 3:48:59 pm EST from 76.165.36.215

A couple of comments from the Upgrade memo gave some reasons to back up Brooklyn as the 2nd In Command:

1. My big fear is that Brooklyn didn't feel like leader material in this. To our audience he's going to come off as cautious and wimpy throughout most of the episode, with the added problem that he's subject to peer pressure. This is particularly problematic in that Brooklyn has always been defined as the MOST adventurous of our trio. Ultimately, the qualities that will define him as a leader include strategic abilities, common sense, a willingness to sacrifice... and, yes, knowing when to retreat and/or call for help. But if we make the latter quality into Brooklyn's first instinct, it will overshadow the others. And our audience won't buy him as leader. Maybe more important than all of this should be a natural unconscious quality of leadership, which parallel's Broadway and Lexington's roles as followers. When they stop thinking and slip into automatic pilot, Brooklyn naturally seems to give the orders and the others naturally follow.

2. The Pack get away in their vehicle, but without the money. Lex momentarily wants to pursue his hated enemies, but as sirens approach, Brooklyn thinks the priority should be to get Goliath back to the safety of the CLOCK TOWER. He asks Broadway to help him carry Goliath. Neither Lex or Broadway question Brooklyn's leadership at this stage. Nor do any of the three, including Brooklyn, make a point of saying that Brooklyn is in charge. He just says some very common sense things and the others see the sense in it and follow his lead.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Nov 3, 2008 1:44:02 pm EST from 96.239.199.233

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