Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

*** SPECTACULAR SPOILERS ***

Okay, so the second season of "The Spectacular Spider-Man" will be airing hear in the U.S. in March. However, Canada premiered it today. I saw it, and now I'm reviewing it. How did I see it? ::shifty eyes::

Okay, it's snowing, and I am reminded of why I'm glad I live in Los Angeles and not New York City anymore. I hate that weather. Spidey is pondering what to do about Gwen, when all of a sudden he's attacked by Venom. But wait, wasn't Eddie Brock separated from the symbiote at the end of season one? Yes. This was a nightmare. But a really cool one.

And this week's villain is both one of the cheesiest, and a personal favorite of mine. Mysterio, and I love this take on him as a faux sorceror, complete with "Gargoyles" style Latin incantations. I just love the way he's talking in this. Summoning tiny little gargoyles and holographic wyverns.

"It seems Mysterio is the master of talking about himself in the third person." -Spidey. Yeah... that's Dr. Doom's job.

Spidey jumped into the freezing East River, and I'm getting chills just thinking about it.

Is that Miles Warren? Keep the lecherous old creep away from Gwen, please. We all know what that will lead too.

And Peter gets reinstated in the Conners' lab. Money talks, all Norman Osborn needs to do is speak. I love how he's now playing mentor to a reluctant Peter Parker. This is going to be interesting.

I loved the battle sequences between Spidey and Mysterio. He's so cheesy, he's great. That's what's great about Mysterio, you can just go crazy and have fun with him.

Mysterio shouted "Fulminos venite!" and lightning struck. That made me happy.

The climax, when Spidey unmasks Mysterio, and has no idea who he is had me in stitches. Quentin Beck is more of a ham than Anton Sevarius. Like Mason said, "actors..."

"As the waaaaiiiiiter..." Beck needs to go back to acting school.

Liz is all over Pete, and he hasn't spoken to Gwen yet. Uh oh.

"I figured Jonah would never unclench enough to..." Was there an edit here? Feels like it.

And why is Norman peeling an egg so creepy?

Spot the voice actor: Stan Lee as... himself. Well, Stan the Dock Worker. Loved that.

Greg Weisman as, I assume, Donald Menken... he was Norman Osborn's bespectacled assistant in the comics for a time, and a Hobgoblin suspect. Nice Owen Burnett impression, Greg.

The Tinkerer finally speaks, and he's Thom Adcox. I love Thom, and I'm glad to hear him here. But if the Tinkerer drops his pants and kisses Electro, I'm going home. ;)

Nice cliffhanger with the Master Planner. Either he's Doc Ock like in the comics, or he's the Chameleon. We'll see. I'm hoping for Ock.

A good beginning for the new season.

*** END SPOILERS ***
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 10:06:00 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Hope if Greg Weisman could checkout my now old artwork I had spent more than eight years in the making and I wasn't going to sell them without permission but it was just a hobby I used to had in fact hoping to be a real comic book artist or possibly a creator in the near future and I understand there won't be any possible Blu-Ray format for the complete Gargoyles series because of the bootleg version originated had on DVD selling on the Internet, so could you give me your personal opinions about what I had doing these years developing my personalseries before I came to do originality, thank you for the journey.
Luis Ramon Lopez Melendez - [llopezm76 at yahoo dot com]
Steelstone
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 9:50:50 pm EST from 70.45.143.19

Happy birthday, Vicki!

And a belated happy birthday to Algernon, as well.
Spen
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 9:37:19 pm EST from 66.43.205.110

I also wanted to add to the deep rich tapestry part:

Admit it: parts of the world tour were so SUCKY... sorry to say it this way, but... there are just EPs in the world tour, I wish would have landed on the cutting room floor... :(

Yeah, Mark of the Panther again...
Brook
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 7:02:44 pm EST from 84.191.238.203

"I'm not saying no one should be allowed to like TGC. You're free to do as you wish. But, honestly, I just want to know why? After the deep, rich, masterpiece of a tapestry we got for the first two seasons (and in the comic), why do you find the dumbed down version acceptable?"

I certainly do not "like" the show. The EP with Goliath being brainwashed? The EP with Goliath on trial? The EP with FRIGGIN Titania goin FRIGGIN "Hey, youknowwhat? Puck did a really cool thing, seems Goliath was quite tortured by it, so, uhm, well, he just wished for it, so, uhm, yeah let's just do the same thing with a different knack, kind of how Puck did it with the Mirror,YEAH, AWESOME!!"? THE EP WHERE BRONX BEFRIENDS A SMALL AMISH BOY?? *runs awway hyding his tears*

Though, I've seen this season 3 times by now, and I must admit that the charaters alone still impress me. SURE, they are messed up - but not worse than in some fanfic, at least I'm sure of that.

I never sat down and really opened a bottle of champain to it. I remember seeing the season and thinking WHAT?? THIS IS THE NEW SEASON?? What the... is he really bringing her ROSES in his TEENAGE HEAD??
And I still do feel about it that way.

BUT.
Let's face it: a LARGE chunk of cartoon shows is a lot lot lot worse. They dont have an interresting setting, they don't have interresting characters, they don't have those cool looking characters.

I stated before and I say it again, that to me, TGC felt like an attampt by a few guys to bring GARGOYLES to "an end". I don't even want to say Fans, cause Fans would know the material they handle.
I mean, pretty much all of the characters are put away or killed or just go "poof" and vanish. So do most storylines. There is some bad writing going on here.

But still, there are 4 EPs that I could sit down and watch and say "Hey, those are not too bad."

Of course a train is not enough to turn the tides, and of course a Gargoyles running away from his clan cause he is, let me put it in one classic word, "c+ckblocked" is stupid, but aside from that, those EPs weren't upon the worst I saw (which is "OMG, THE CLONES are DYING!! OF SOME... DULL... uh... VIRUS... uh... OMG, BABY ANTON IS UGLY!! RUN AWAAAAAAAAAAY!!"). I do not like these EPs, but I can watch them and feel that they are at least ATTEMPTS to come close.
And Dying of the Light has at least one classic moment.

I always felt that TGC was like X-Men 3, or like "Let it Be". Sure, it was far away from the rest, but I do not consider it canon. And yeah, some of this is so entirely bad, that it almost destroys the few good moments left.
Hence, I always recommend to take it as what it is: an attempt by "some guys" to fix an ending to the show (like X3) or to get the ball rolling again (like LET IT BE, what sort of failed, but at least ABBEY ROAD followed). They failed. But it is not the worst show on earth.

Apart from that... it is one of the worst things to happen to GARGOYLES.
And I do not sit down and watch it with a glas of wine in my hand when it is late.
And I will probably never watch it again.
Brook
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 6:59:45 pm EST from 84.191.238.203

TGC> I've actually never seen "Angels in the Night" so I can't comment too much on it. But from what I understand of it, my issues with it are some of the same ones Greg B talks about and the same ones I have with other episodes of TGC. It feels like a much too easy solution to a complex problem and that the only reason that it works was because it was the last episode of the show so the crew needed to wrap things up. It's hard too see why this particular incident would cause the general public to recognize the gargoyles as heroes when the clan has performed equally public and heroic deeds before and the Quarrymen have repeatedly shown themselves to have no regard for the safety of civilians. It's like every episode of TGC could begin with "Previously on "Gargoyles: The Goliath Chronicles," the Quarrymen did something really bad and the gargoyles saved the day, but it doesn't really matter because no one noticed and pretty much everyone in New York and presumably he entire world still feels exactly how they have since the first episode."

"The Journey" certainly is a good episode, but even then, I wouldn't call it "flawless" personally. The writing is quite good, but the animation bothers me and even some of the voice work doesn't feel quite up to the standard of the regular series. Heck, I'm not sure if there's an episode of the two regular seasons that I'd call "flawless" since I can probably find at least a minor flaw in just about anything.

But I do feel that everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, regardless of whether I or the majority agree with it. We can go back and forth and point out whatever happens to back up our feelings on a particular episode, but it will eventually come down to a matter of personal taste and everyone's is different. I may be alone in the fact that I'm not crazy about how the tricksters (aside from Puck) are handled in the series, but that's OK. I stand by my opinions, but I respect people's right to disagree with them.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 3:35:56 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Brook> Like I said before. If TGC was just some random cartoon with no connection to Gargoyles, it's simplistic writing wouldn't be a problem. But when a complex show gets a simple follow up, then it's an unintentional kick in the balls.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 3:03:09 pm EST from 74.61.186.169

Greg> Well said.
Ricky
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 2:30:54 pm EST from 151.205.182.84

Angels In the Night was NOT flawless. If anything, it was one of the worst. It was completely illogical, simplified, dumbed-down... and honestly, a complete slap in the face to the Civil Rights movement.

Acceptance is not that easy! I repeat, not that easy! You don't just save a train and then one, two, three, BAM! Instant parade! No, it does not happen.

If Martin Luther King Jr and his followers saved a train full of white people in the south from the Ku Klux Klan, I doubt the Jim Crow laws would have gone away.

Jews have contributed a lot, and I mean A LOT, to society, and look at how prevalent antisemitism still is in the world.

It was asinine and unrealistic. It was... a childrens' cartoon. Which ordinarily is fine, but after the show's realistic (as real as it could possibly be) take on these situations in the first two seasons, this was unacceptable.

I am sorry for the rant, but, I have been writing something for the last month and a half (well, technically I started it in late 2007, but it got shelved for a while) that deals with gargoyles, civil rights, acceptance and all that. So, I have some very strong opinions on this currently.

A few of you in the CR know what it is. I'm remaining mum until I post it.

I'm not saying no one should be allowed to like TGC. You're free to do as you wish. But, honestly, I just want to know why? After the deep, rich, masterpiece of a tapestry we got for the first two seasons (and in the comic), why do you find the dumbed down version acceptable?

It's like an artist painting the greatest masterpiece in oil paints, suddenly dies, and some salesman finishes it with crayons.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 2:26:31 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Brook> "ANGELS OF THE NIGHT and JOURNEY are still flawless EPs. Good to very good (OK, Journey is excellent)."

I agree about Journey, but Angels Of The Night? Depends on how you look at it. If you set judgment aside and look at a fun, slightly doofy way to kill 30 minutes, then, yes, it's dumb fun. However, as a possible ending (and I use those words loosely), it just doesn't work.

Ah, but then again, most of TGC (besides Journey, that is) doesn't really work either, so feel free to disregard my entire post here.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 1:41:10 pm EST from 69.223.185.221

oh PS.

just to clarify, i am IN NO WAY saying TGC was better than gregs third season. from what i've read so far i really DO like his better on the whole. as i said, the only thing i would do differently is xanatos. ..but then again, we havent read the rest of gregs season have we. nothing is final yet and we have no idea what xanatos will really turn out to be in the end. so we'll see.
sTiTcH
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 1:22:32 pm EST from 64.12.117.134

GREG>
(But that's what leads to interesting drama and character dynamics. Why would you want the characters and the story to be dumbed down? Why would you want potential obstacles in their paths removed? I personally think that's dull.
A completely reformed Xanatos is boring. He's a grey character, always has been. Why should he suddenly start wearing a white hat?
The Xanatos you seem to want has been completely neutered and emasculated.
What is the appeal of turning a deep character into a shallow one? I don't understand why a "Gargoyles" fan would want any of these characters to be less complex. Isn't one of the appeals of this series just how deep and complex these characters are?
Xanatos is a great character, why cheapen him by turning him into a more standard, Saturday Morning Cartoon character? I don't get it.
Oh, and there wasn't a lot of character growth in TGC. There was more than a bit of character regression.
And we are seeing Greg's season three right now, and hopefully it will pick up and keep going.)

i think its safe to say xanatos will ALWAYS be a complex character with his own..INTERESTING.. way of doing things. i certainly dont mean he should suddenly become donny freakin osmond. i love the idea that he can be shady at times and constantly has this conceded god complex. what i mean is, i preffer a world where he's nolonger a threat to the gargoyles. i dont want him to be an absolute dangerous villan like he was in season 1, but obviously not a roll model either.
basically, let him keep his depth and his "shifty-eyes" persona but give him a little bit of redemption.. someone you just roll your eyes at or need to slap on the wrist every now and then.. not need to run and hide in fear of your life.
(not to refference harry potter but i like to think of xanatos as sort of a snape: somewhat f@#ked up morals but a basic ability to do good)
i dont think that cheapens him. i guess personally, i just like xanatos so much as a character that i dont want to have to root againsed him.
xanatos friggin rocks!! :-D
sTiTcH
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 1:16:37 pm EST from 64.12.117.134

Vicky> Happy Birthday and congratulations on making it this far. I turned 25 myself yesterday but I don't like making a big deal out of my birthday. Frankly I'm slightly disappointed with myself for not having done more with my life by now.
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 12:41:06 pm EST from 86.41.217.116

Guys, even with the changing voice - remain cool, OK? :)

Cause THIS somehow offended me, comming from a guy who ciriticsed somebody making a remark about WW2 germany:

"You know who else hides behind masks? The Ku Klux Klan?

Why? Because they're all a bunch of cowards!"

*taps on floor* Do we REALLY have to behave like 6th graders here??
I hope not.

However, this coms to mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q3vvWUts90

:D

@ Stitch & Greg B: I can understand both of you. TGC HAD its moments, even though in other parts it was atrocious!!
Face it - compare to 90% of the cartoon shows, TGC was still good. No "Yeah Yeah" good, but kinda good. In comparison with S2 of Gargoyles however... FAIL!!
But I must admit: I LIKE the thought of Xanatos being good. At some point, it can feel just more of the same. Whilst it is not that way now, I fear it might become so in the future. I certainly don't want Xanatos do mess around 5 more years in "good-bad-good-bad" mode... it is just way too cliche for him at one point in the future.
And please, don't confuse this with less deep - I think it would give another layer to the character altogether.

"So... yeah... The Goliath Chronicles... I gotta admit that I liked "Broadway Goes To Hollywood". Except for the 'reset button' at the end. Don't hate me."

I don't hate you for that. :) But I still don't dig that EP.

Ransom is quite good. Minus the fact that Fox is so whiny. I don't really have a problem with the guys breaking in with the helicopter etc. cause, frankly, this is TGC, right? they don't have a clue what they're doing. But apart from that, this EP is quite OK.

So is RUNAWAYS, if you cut out the entire first 5 minutes (WHAT THE HELL?? Goliath was NEVER EVER more arrogant and Brooklyn has never been more immature). And some more.

ANGELS OF THE NIGHT and JOURNEY are still flawless EPs. Good to very good (OK, Journey is excellent).

And hey, more Gargs... this is not canon, the world will not go down. X-Men 3 was bad, but seriously, it wasn't DAREDEVIL or SPAWN or something like that... if you dig what I mean...
Brook
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 12:36:18 pm EST from 84.191.236.157

Greg B.> ""Ransom" would have been a lot more tolerable if Fox weren't reduced to.... that.

Fox. The real Fox would have been out there on the street beating the crap out of people until she found her son."

For once, we actually agree on something.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 11:33:33 am EST from 69.223.185.221

*Comes Staggering in with a hot tea (Don't drink coffee) and a and a very small hangover* Hi i'm 1 year older today, 27!!!!!!!!! and I got a bad cold (Thanks to the cold weather)

The Goliath Chronicles on DVD, no thank you still got it on my vhs tape anyway doubt that going to be released over here, didn't even release the first 2.
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 5:00:46 am EST from 205.188.117.134

Landon> Whoops, sorry, I didn't see your second link. (Obviously it was a good one, though, if we both came up with it. ;) )
Supermorff
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 4:40:29 am EST from 86.131.13.78

Battle Beast> Wikipedia is your friend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animated_feature-length_films
Supermorff
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 4:38:43 am EST from 86.131.13.78

Battle Beast : I wonder, on that plate of cookies, would there happen to be any Hydrox on there still?
Spen
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 3:11:45 am EST from 66.43.205.110

Battle Beast - You might save time searching for compiled lists/databases already available online. For example:

http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Genres/Animation/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animated_feature-length_films
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 3:06:32 am EST from 216.250.163.157

sorry for the triple but:
And cowards risk getting their heads shaved with a zemel in gym full of Seminole Indians. ;)
No Cowards don't risk anything, they're too scared!
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 2:39:01 am EST from 24.7.204.215

Gulliver's Travels By Max Fleischer is A Full Length Feature Film, as is All Dogs Go To Heaven And The Prince Of Egypt.
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 2:37:41 am EST from 24.7.204.215

I'm Not Plagirizing, but i won't talk about it anymore. Also I did not insult Greg, I'd never insult the creator of my favorite series, I just said i preferred Vulture to look like he looked in The Comics, i think Greg should be faithful to the comic, but that's just my opinion, okay? Besides, Me and Greg seem to get along well. Also I'm a big fan of Superman too, but like him, i have many identities, but I'll stop using them in Station 8, And Disagreeing is sometimes the same as not listening, but i did listen to everything you guys said, i just said i don't agree. Look If i can have another chance I'll take it! Also yes, Gargoyles Is Beloved to me too! Long Live Demona And Macbeth! Long Live Goliath! Hey Ho Ho.
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 2:36:09 am EST from 24.7.204.215

Sorry for the double, but I forgot why I was commenting!

HEY EVERYONE! I am seeking to make a list of FULL LENGTH ANIMATED FEATURES! If you know of any, please post them. i have a whole bunch, but just in case I have missed some, mybe people out there know of some?

I am looking for any kind of animated features... from dreamworks to disney to Studio Ghibli to foreign ones. Don Bluth, Myazaki, Disney, what have you.

Any help would be great!

Thanks!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 2:31:54 am EST from 75.156.190.146

D. Taina> You guys are doing a terrific job! Keep up the good work!

Daniel> I haven't said anything to you because I like newbies and I know how it was when I was new here.

We don't want you to leave... just please, if you love Gargoyles, talk about it, spread the word, but DON'T, DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT make a comment that you are plagerizing and ripping off our beloved show with your own copied idea.

By the by, did anyone offer you a cookie when you first came? *hands over a platter of cookies* take one! I like the Mint Oreo's.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 2:22:59 am EST from 75.156.190.146

"Ransom" would have been a lot more tolerable if Fox weren't reduced to.... that.

Fox. The real Fox would have been out there on the street beating the crap out of people until she found her son.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Sun, Jan 11, 2009 1:12:23 am EST from 24.205.39.101

Matt - I think it's fine to like certain TGC episodes; they're the same characters after all (well, sort of). My favorite episode was 'Ransom'. There were some cute scenes and a lot of good drama.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 11:35:24 pm EST from 216.250.163.157

<<You know who else hides behind masks? The Ku Klux Klan?

Why? Because they're all a bunch of cowards!>>

And cowards risk getting their heads shaved with a zemel in gym full of Seminole Indians. ;)
Leo
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 11:16:45 pm EST from 98.166.120.242

Fine I'm leaving this post, i see I'm not welcome here! Sorry for all the trouble i caused, and there's nothing to worry about! Good Bye.
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 11:11:49 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

Matt's absolutly right lets just get back to bitching about how much we all hate TGC and forget the whole thing.
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 11:09:11 pm EST from 83.71.98.161

You know what? Do whatever you want, Daniel. I'm through.

I'm going to do something constructive and work on some screenshots for the GargWiki. Which reminds me, you guys should really check it out. We're adding new stuff every day!
D. Taina - [demona3 at hotmail dot com]
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 11:07:58 pm EST from 74.213.121.140

I know i know, it was a bad place for me to post my idea, but I'm just a big a Gargoyles fan as anyone here, and i was just asking some questions about it! Look i'm not going to mention this anymore, i promise? If i can be given another chance to start over and let things go smooth, i'll be willing to take It? So can i be given another chance?
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 11:07:50 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

And again, feel free to ignore me, but all i want is to make some progress and conversations here, and i am mature! I'm just discussing things, but people take me to be Aggravating them or whining about it, which I'm not! look guys just tell me, do you want me here, or is it best if i just leave?
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 11:04:51 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

I think it's safe to say that anyone who announces to this fandom that they're developing a series about gargoyles that are stone by day and warriors by night would be greeted with a high level of skepticism regarding how original their idea truly is. But honestly... the reactions of people here are nothing compared to what such an idea would be up against in trying to actually sell it for commercial production. Fans can be tough, but lawyers are brutal.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 11:04:09 pm EST from 66.61.18.93

Sorry for the double post it was an accident!
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 11:02:14 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

And no I'm not like The Ku Klux Klan Or The Quarrymen, i promise you one day I'll make a big speech in front of people without a mask or identity! Besides I'm not even wearing a mask, i just use different I D's And Accounts! I'm not a coward, i create these identities so i can have a break from being myself and communicate with people without them attacking me, calling me names or even experimenting with what i say. Look why are we bringing this up, I'm using one identity aren't I? Can We get along now, Or No? Also look, I'm a big Gargoyle Fan as much as you guys are and have come here to discuss things about Gargoyles and Even Ideas, can't we go back to that and treat each other well, Can We? Also I don't want to anger or frustrate anyone, I'm sorry I'm causing so much problem here, i don't mean to, and i just want to bring happiness to others!
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 11:01:39 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

You know, this Comment Room was once a place I enjoyed coming to. Now I dread it. I swear I'm only here anymore for the occasional Gargoyles updates and the far more rare halfway decent conversation. Frankly, the Room has become somewhat ludicrous anymore.

I mean what the hell is everyone talking about? Let Daniel or ANYONE post whatever they want. If their post leads to a discussion and they are not mature enought to handle a real adult conversation just stop talking to them. You don't need to respond to everything everyone says. You don't need to start wars because you don't like somebody who posted something trivial in the Comment Room. Honestly, Daniel seems to be the only one with any sense around here lately because he is the only one who has suggested that we ignore him. Good idea.

Lets move on. Lets discuss something. This TGC topic seems alright. Lets talk about that. Please. If debates happen, that's great, but if one or both debators can't converse intelligently or maturely or honestly, then just let them be. Don't respond to them. Just drop it. Alright?

So... yeah... The Goliath Chronicles... I gotta admit that I liked "Broadway Goes To Hollywood". Except for the 'reset button' at the end. Don't hate me.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I'm just so tired..." -Macbeth
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 11:01:19 pm EST from 70.230.182.76

Daniel> How are people supposed to acept you for who you really are when you hide behind half a dozen false identities?
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 11:00:52 pm EST from 83.71.98.161

No it works for others too! Including me! And also why should i just stand here and say what i believe while being myself, if i knew that I'll be treated like an outcast because of my beliefs and ideas. Also you won't recognize me, don't underestimate me, i know to you guys I'm a nothing, but I'm more than that, i didn't even reveal to you guys the whole reason behind all this. And one day i hope to be a big a creator as Greg Weisman, Walt Disney, George Lucas, Steven Spielberg, Osamu Tesuka And Jim Henson ever were! Also let me just ask you guys, if i came to the board without the anonymous identity, and said I'm new to the board and would like to be shown around, but i reveal that i'm developing my own Gargoyle Series, would you have welcomed me the same way, or would you have told me to get lost and call me a rip off Artist? Well?
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 10:52:01 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

You know who else hides behind masks? The Ku Klux Klan?

Why? Because they're all a bunch of cowards!
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 10:49:09 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

No, no one would even listen to me, or immediately will just jump to conclusions if they knew who i am. Really! And no it is others' problems as well if they immediately start to treat the person bad because of who he is! Look all i ask is that I'll be treated like others here, You won't be uneasy with me, you'll talk with me about stuff peacefully and will accept me for who i am, or is this too much to ask?
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 10:44:56 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

Daniel: If you do come back under different names, we'll recognize you. You know why? Because no amount of secret identities can hide the way you express yourself. Using a different computer and getting a different IP address won't help you either. We'll know who you are. There's a reason putting on a pair of glasses only works for Superman.

This is a problem that you caused all by yourself. Why did you come here pretending to be two people? You can't go through life hiding behind a mask because you're afraid of what people might think. You have to stand by what you say, even if the rest of the world disagrees with you.

So, what can you do? You can toughen up and move on, or you can come back under a different name, get found out, and go through the same thing all over again. This is going to keep happening to you not just here, but all over the Internet, if you don't do something about it now. Your choice.
D. Taina - [demona3 at hotmail dot com]
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 10:44:09 pm EST from 74.213.121.140

Daniel: <Also look i also have other identities because no one likes me, and no one would ever want to talk to me if they knew who i really am>

That sounds like a personal problem. Honestly, if you enter a chat room thinking right off the bat that no one's going to like you, I wouldn't expect great things to happen. If you want a tip, to me the posting of different ideas under different identities because you're too afraid to stand behind what you're saying denotes a lack of self respect. But that's your problem, no one else's.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Let me get this straight: You think that your client, one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world, is secretly a vigilante who beats criminals to a pulp with his bare hands. And your plan is to blackmail this person? Good luck." -Lucius Fox ("The Dark Knight")
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 10:37:17 pm EST from 76.27.174.85

As far as the Goliath Chronicle goes, character development doesn't really describe it. The only major change is at the end where the city decides to accept The Gargoyles.

The comic on the other hand:
1. Touch more upon Goliath and Elisa's relationship.
2. Reveals the outcome of Xanatos' choice to ignore Mr. Duval's call.
3. Gives us more detail on the Illuminati.
4. Reveals that John Castaway isn't hammer crazy and is capable of maintaining a calm mannerism.
5. Dr. Sato being brought into the clan's world.

8 issues of the comics have given us more than 13 episodes of TGC.

Now as for the show itself, frankly I see the dislike of it being based on the fact that it continues from a show where complexity is the norm. If TGC was a seperate show, then I imagine people would leave or take it as a basic action show.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 10:23:48 pm EST from 74.61.186.169

Well, Sorry But Daniel Abraham Raviv is my real name so go ahead, ignore me. Also About The Superman and Clark thing, yes i know, i made a mistake on using the same computer, but it won't happen again, I'm going to get myself some new computers and use my alternate identities on them. Thk You! And also, no I seriously didn't hear or read anywhere that greg said Oberon And Titania weren't married during the time of a Midsummer Night's Dream, if you guys will just show me the link or wherever he said it instead of bashing me, then i will see for myself. But even if they're not married (Which the play never said they're married it just identified them as lovers) The Play still takes place Completely Greg himself told me, and when i say no, when they say there opinion it's just because i don't know that they're opinions and am thinking that they're saying what they believe to be facts, like when they say that A Midsummer Night's Dream did not take place in the Gargoyles Universe, but look when the questions open up again I'll ask him again and clear it up, so until then let's just drop it, and as for the links, sorry, but i forget about them because I'm so busy writing other stuff, and I am listening to what you guys are saying. Also sTiTcH> The multiple identity thing was happening before you joined us, and was found out pretty quickly. What do you mean by that, you know my other identities on other websites? Don't worry I'm getting more tricky and will soon have different computers in which to keep my identities seperate. Also look i also have other identities because no one likes me, and no one would ever want to talk to me if they knew who i really am, so i try to make other identities so people will talk to me and not shun me. Look Daniel Handler has another identity (Lemony Snicket) which he used on the internet before it became famous as a character in A Series Of Unfortunate Events. So go ahead bash me all you want, you could've just said You're not welcome here, go find somewhere else to talk about your trash, and I'll leave. I know you guys are treating me bad because of what happened with my first time here. So fine, just tell me and I'll leave, I'd rather someone tell me to leave then not be treated equally like how you treat the others here. So just tell me what you want from me and i'll do it! REALLY!
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 10:10:54 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

Allow me to add on to what I was saying...

Character growth in TGC > There was absolutly no character growth in TGC. They desperatly tried to add in things that looked like character growth but it failed. The only thing I saw that could be called 'growth' in anyway was Hudson seeing his blindness not as a weakness but as an advantage over the Quarrymen and putting his pride aside to ask for help. But that lasted only an episode, was never seen again, and wasnt even really a nessecary character growth because Hudson has never seen his blind eye as a weakness for anything. His age, maybe, but not his eye.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 9:47:23 pm EST from 71.206.9.183

Algernon and Greg B > Im with both of you. Gargoyles does have some enemies of the Clan who are without a doubt the 'bad guys': the Pack, Demona, Coldsteel, Thailog. However, I love that there are characters who switch sides for their own benefit: Xanatos, McBeth, Dr Sevarius. Xanatos of TGC just drove me crazy. Xanatos of the comics delights me to no end. He's funny and complex. And, when Goliath confronts him about sending Coldsteel and Coyote to steal the Stone of Desnity, he'll probably give them some excuse about wanting to protect the Stone or something like that.

I wouldnt have Xanatos any other way.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 9:41:20 pm EST from 71.206.9.183

I don't know. I have a new attitude about the Goliath Chronicles. If people WANT to like it, I'll certainly question their motives in liking an inferior product, but they can go ahead and like it all they want.

I've got all the albums Yes did when they were in their mind-fuckingly brilliant phase (starting with 1970's "The Yes Album" and ending with 1974's "Relayer"). I don't consider myself less of a Yes fan because I also enjoy the album "90125".

Maybe I'm using the wrong analogy, but my analogies and/or similes always involve music or food, because I'm either always listening to something when I'm lounging around the house, or else I'm always hungry. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Let me get this straight: You think that your client, one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world, is secretly a vigilante who beats criminals to a pulp with his bare hands. And your plan is to blackmail this person? Good luck." -Lucius Fox ("The Dark Knight")
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 9:41:17 pm EST from 76.27.174.85

Stitch><<"i didnt think the episodes were that bad.. lots of character growth."

I see as much "character growth" in TGC as I see in 18273461287 episodes of Scooby Doo.

To me, it felt like TGC was dumbed down to the level of the early 90's X-men cartoon. Now that I think about it, the episodes could have been easily stripped down and rewritten into an X-Men episode. "blah blah blah ...when will society accept us.... blah blah... villain of the week who hates gargoyles... blah blah... couple of cute filler episodes.. blah blah.."

Needless to say I interest in that X-Men series after only a few episodes. ;)
Leo
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 9:35:00 pm EST from 98.166.120.242

Algernon> Same. I always thought the shades of gray in the "Gargoyles Universe" are a big part of what made the series so special.

But I too have noticed a desire among some fans to make these characters less complex, and it baffles me. Why would they want that? It kind of makes me wonder why they got into the show in the first place of deep, realistic characterization is not their thing.

I mean, I love that this show is not the Superfriends vs the Legion of Doom, or the Autobots vs the Decepticons, or GI Joe vs Cobra.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Temptation" is one of my favorite episodes because it features Demona beating up rednecks. God, how I hate rednecks!" -Me
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 9:34:43 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Greg B> Agreed, I like the fact that even though Xanatos and the Clan are "allies" for lack of a better term, they're still operating on radically different moral compasses.
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 9:22:16 pm EST from 83.71.98.161

Sorry for the double post, but I need to ask...

What is the appeal of turning a deep character into a shallow one? I don't understand why a "Gargoyles" fan would want any of these characters to be less complex. Isn't one of the appeals of this series just how deep and complex these characters are?

Xanatos is a great character, why cheapen him by turning him into a more standard, Saturday Morning Cartoon character? I don't get it.

Oh, and there wasn't a lot of character growth in TGC. There was more than a bit of character regression.

And we are seeing Greg's season three right now, and hopefully it will pick up and keep going.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Temptation" is one of my favorite episodes because it features Demona beating up rednecks. God, how I hate rednecks!" -Me
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 9:04:16 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

STITCH> <<(no offence to greg, but i preffer the idea of a COMPLETELY reformed xanatos over one who still cant be fully trusted.. i wouldnt like to think of them possibly haveing to leave the castle again over a disagreement.>>

But that's what leads to interesting drama and character dynamics. Why would you want the characters and the story to be dumbed down? Why would you want potential obstacles in their paths removed? I personally think that's dull.

A completely reformed Xanatos is boring. He's a grey character, always has been. Why should he suddenly start wearing a white hat?

The Xanatos you seem to want has been completely neutered and emasculated.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Temptation" is one of my favorite episodes because it features Demona beating up rednecks. God, how I hate rednecks!" -Me
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 8:41:54 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

meh.. i would buy the goliath only to up sales so they might make more. but if i had to pick only a few, im really just interested in brooklyn, demona, and maybe lex.
(2 statues of brooklyn and demona in battle pose positioned to look like they're kicking eachothers asses... how SWEET!!)
if they never happen, i'd think about commisioning a good artist to make custom sculptures for me.

and about TGC, nah.. i wouldnt judge it that harshly. i admit the whole concept of it suddenly being ONLY goliaths tale and him doing that pointless narration was pretty dumb. i also admit the series finally of the humans finally accepting them should have been MUCH grander... i mean come on. they've saved COUNTLESS lives and made their point MANY times that they were againsed anything harmfull, and the rescue of this ONE TRAIN was enough to suddenly change everyones minds??
but other than that, i didnt think the episodes were that bad.. lots of character growth. (no offence to greg, but i preffer the idea of a COMPLETELY reformed xanatos over one who still cant be fully trusted.. i wouldnt like to think of them possibly haveing to leave the castle again over a disagreement.)
i know gregs version of it was way better, but well, we never got to see that on screen did we..
sTiTcH
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 8:30:16 pm EST from 205.188.117.134

ANTIYONDER - I've sometimes regretted never asking Michael Reaves at the 2001 Gathering if the opening of "Requiem" was inspired by the opening of the Book of Job.
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 8:23:21 pm EST from 4.244.212.222

Todd> To be honest, I think that any person in Eric's position even if they are considerate of others would hesitate or even refuse to help the realm out.

Anyway, here's the info on the unproduced 27th episode as well as the script:

http://www.michaelreaves.com/requiem_preface.htm

http://www.michaelreaves.com/pdf/requiem_sec.pdf
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 7:54:44 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

DEMONSKRYE - I saw the trope as applying to Eric, less because he disagreed with the others and more because he generally took the more selfish attitude of "Let's just go home and never mind whether Venger enslaves the entire world because we didn't stay to stop him!" (He reminded me a bit of Eustace Scrubb in the early chapters of "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader", before he got turned into a dragon.)

Though one could indeed argue that Eric had a point at times (particularly since the series never answered the question of why it was up to six children pulled out of their world into another without their consent to save the Realm, and why Dungeon Master never gave them a straightforward explanation as to what was going on - though I'm not sure if the production team meant it to come across like that or not).
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 7:36:45 pm EST from 4.244.212.222

Yes Demona. YES big gun!
Ricky
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 6:47:51 pm EST from 151.205.182.84

I like it. Hope it sells and we get a second statue. I think Demona would be the way to go for round 2. And give her a really big gun ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Temptation" is one of my favorite episodes because it features Demona beating up rednecks. God, how I hate rednecks!" -Me
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 6:44:33 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Thanks Ricky!

Goliath's face looks a tad off to me and I agree that it would be nice if he were standing on something that looked more related to a building seen in the show. But when I see how nice the Darkwing Duck statue came out compared to the concept art, I'm pretty optimistic. Oh, and for anyone who thinks that Goliath's perch looks a tad "suggestive," I'm sure the effect will be lessened when it's a 3D sculpt and there's clear separation between building and loincloth. (Unless, of course, you WANT to think of it that way. ;) )
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 6:37:12 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Bigger concept art for the Goliath statue:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uVe4Jtp_Fxk/SM2SH7E-qPI/AAAAAAAAAF0/ZSrG84bNLRQ/s1600-h/goliath-1.jpg

Awesome!
Ricky
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 6:17:47 pm EST from 151.205.182.84

Deggert> Ask Greg currently opens for limited amounts of time when something that would prompt new comments and questions happens, such as the pending release of Clan Building Volume 2 and the Bad Guys trade.

Electric Tiki is making a Goliath statue. Click my name to see an article with the concept art for it. There don't seem to be any current plans for statues of other characters, but if the Goliath sells well, maybe we'll get some more.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 4:59:59 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Temptation" is one of my favorite episodes because it features Demona beating up rednecks. God, how I hate rednecks!" -Me
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 4:58:03 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Patrick - I'm trying to imagine Bruce Wayne sitting in a room talking to himself. Just changing his voice back and forth to be Batman and Bruce. That's kinda how watching Daniel is. ... only he doesn't change his voice enough for us to notice a significant difference.
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson - [<--- Gathering of the Gargoyles 2009]
"There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee - that says, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me - you can't get fooled again." - President Bush
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 4:55:09 pm EST from 76.174.154.162

Superman and Clark Kent never appeared somewhere at the same time with the exact same tracking number floating over their head.

Gathering Update: Hotel rooms now can be booked online. Also, we still have t-shirts and copies of the Items of Enchantment Anthology left. Visit our web site for details!
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"That is why you fail." - Yoda
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 4:43:15 pm EST from 66.61.18.93

Stitch> That's your POV. I don't agree. I hated TGC when it was on, saw my favorite show being butchered. I didn't find out about the change in production crew until a month after it ended, and I got onto the internet.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Temptation" is one of my favorite episodes because it features Demona beating up rednecks. God, how I hate rednecks!" -Me
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 3:03:36 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

yo i'd be all over them if they did make gargoyles statues.. even if they're expensive collectors items. i absolutely refuse to buy those ugly freakin toys...
("icestorm brooklyn??" WTF??)

and if you can look past the dirty disney vs. greg drama and the third season that should have been, TGC really wasnt that bad! as a young kid who had no concept of the above, i rather enjoyed it as just a part of the gargoyles cult!
i just wanna own ALL of the episodes in one form or another.
if only they still made blank VHS tapes..
sTiTcH
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 2:57:15 pm EST from 205.188.117.134

Hey, I've got a comment and a question. I've been following "Ask Greg" for probably about 5 years, but I rarely come into the Comment Room, so forgive me if these have been noted/asked previously.

First, I was just over at the site for Electric Tiki, which makes licensed statues for various companies. A few months ago they announced that they had a deal to make some based on Disney properties. I just noticed, however, that in their logo for the project in the lower left corner there is an image of Goliath. Could there be some new Gargoyles statues on the way? The image can be found on their homepage at http://www.electrictiki.com/homepage/tikihome.html

Second, my question. It's been quite a while since Greg's posted anything on "Ask Greg". Did I miss an announcement about a hiatus? I saw that the question que was empty, so I thought that was the cause, but then when he didn't ramble about the announcement of volumes 2 and 3 of the Spider-Man DVDs I got to wondering if I'd missed something.
Deggert
DTE
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 1:49:58 pm EST from 72.254.163.227

Goliath Chronicles on DVD?

*shudders at the thought*
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 1:03:15 pm EST from 69.223.185.221

Blaise> I think the way that TV Tropes defines it, "The Complainer is Always Wrong" is more like "The Dissenter is Always Wrong." I tend to think that "Complainer" would refer more to those characters who are constantly miserable in the face of their situation, in contrast to the general cheeriness, steadfastness, or willingness to persevere of their respective groups. Think Eric from "Dungeons and Dragons" or Dr. Smith from "Lost in Space" (which my husband insists on watching despite the fact that I inevitably end up wondering why the other characters haven't killed Dr. Smith by now.) Like the Dissident, the Complainer exists largely to be mocked and proven wrong, especially in shows aimed at kids. But sometimes, older fans of such shows will find the Complainer appealing because he or she is a more realistic and well rounded character. Be honest: if all you had signed on for was an amusement park ride and you ended up in another world where people were trying to kill you with alarming frequency and you had no clue if or when you might get back to your friends and family, wouldn't it start to get on your nerves at some point?
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 12:26:57 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Seriously - if Disney would release TGC on DVD, yet NOT release S2V2, I MYSELF will drive over to Florida or where these guys have their main quarters and kick their behinds Seymour Skinner Style. :)
Brook
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 11:34:15 am EST from 84.191.213.94

..OK.. i missread that as "omg, goliath cronicals ON THE WAY." and i thought that was a link to a dvd site..
i am SO miserably deflated right now...
sTiTcH
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 10:39:32 am EST from 205.188.117.134

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StatusQuoIsGod

OMG; Goliath Cronicles all the way!!! :O
Brook
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 9:21:08 am EST from 84.191.234.253

Bit of trivia for anyone who hasn't read up on it, the third season of Dungeons & Dragons was intended to end with a significant turning point for the characters. Without spoiling it too much, it sets up the possibility for the kids to return home, but leaving the door open for the planned, but unproduced 4th Season.

I'll put a link to it later.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 8:48:31 am EST from 71.120.226.102

Thanks for the post, Blaise. I remember the old "Dungeons & Dragons" cartoon and rather liked it - I was particularly impressed with the "Dragon's Graveyard" episode that you mentioned. Sometimes I wonder (to reverse the original question posed by Bishansky) what it might have been like if it had been made in the 90's or in this decade (the 00's or whatever we're calling it), when the notion of continuity was catching on. Of course, the cartoon suffered from the premise that the protagonists were trying to get home, which could never happen without automatically ending the series (one of the writers from the first season, Jeffrey Scott, considered that one of its chief flaws in an interview). "Gargoyles" had the advantage that its protagonists knew they were in the modern world for good (though the Avalon World Tour probably came close to that concept - too close, I suspect, to much of the audience).

I do think that the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon also suffered from the production team apparently not having worked out exactly why the protagonists were in the fantasy world (it was called the Realm, I recall), whether it was a cosmic fluke or if they had been summoned to save it, and if the latter, why Dungeon Master (who hinted at it several times throughout the series) never said it straight out, rather than let the children focus their attention on getting home. It seems to have been a blend (unsuccessful, in my opinion) of a "Wizard of Oz" scenario (the protagonist is there by accident, naturally makes getting home her priority, and the big adventures proceed naturally from that) and a "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" scenario (the protagonists are called to that world, recognize that fact, and put aside any thought of getting home - in the book from which this scenario derives its name, they even accept that they're being asked to stay in Narnia after the White Witch is defeated and rule over it, instead of going straight home afterwards, without any protests). The cartoon took some elements from the first scenario and some from the second, but didn't put them together in a way that entirely worked.
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Sat, Jan 10, 2009 7:22:06 am EST from 4.244.209.41

HA! never mind the 80's, i've noticed that formula in alot of 90's shows too!
its because that target audience doesnt care about origins as much as they do action, and the constant suspence of "will they reach their goal this time even though they never do" never gets old because they're too young to catch on, and again, they dont really care. they dont watch cartoons for that reason.. only geeks like us do.. ^_^
so i guess its safe to say gargoyles was pretty unique all around!
sTiTcH
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 11:29:42 pm EST from 205.188.117.134

****Blaise appears in a ball of blue and green flame, accompanied by a trumpet fanfare.**** AT LAST!! I have internet access from home again! For the first time in six months, I've finally got a new computer with a faster connection!
((*Blaise looks down and notices himself slowly fading away. He seems to hit something with his fist and snaps back into full solidity.*))
Okay, so it's not all stable yet--the darn DSL modem will sometimes just stop connecting to web pages. Well, it's a work in progress (like my computer--I'm going to have to upgrade at least two major pieces of hardware if I want this thing to be able to handle "Mass Effect").

At any rate, I just wanted to add my two cents on a topic before this week runs out.

GARGOYLES AS AN '80s CARTOON> Well, I've actually walked a bit down 1980's memory lane recently with my "Dungeons & Dragons" animated series DVD, and that gave me some ideas.
For example:

-In deference to the Moral Guardians' demand that a constantly reinforced moral of any series be "The Complainer is Always Wrong"--
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheComplainerIsAlwaysWrong
--the '80s "Gargoyles" series will have a resident complainer (most likely they'd make it Brooklyn) who will always disagree with the group, always be humiliated or otherwise put in danger because he did not follow the group, but will come around in the end. Invariably, EVERY episode will end with something "funny" happening to the Complainer, and every other character having a good belly laugh at his expense.

-A major plot point of the series will be the gargoyles' attempts to get back to their own time (massacre? What massacre?). But, at the end of every episode, they will come within a hair's breadth of going home only for something (the villain, their own righteous code of honor, etc.) to force them to stay in modern times. This would NEVER be resolved.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FailureIsTheOnlyOption

-There would be NO origin episode (sorry "Awakening" fans). The pilot would take place within the current situation. All pertinent information as to "how we got here" would be given in the introduction.

A little more on the general side of things:
-The *flawless* hero has a female counterpart on the team that is obviously the only match for him. They're not in any obvious relationship, it's just that she's basically..."the chick." How does this differ from the Goliath/Elisa romance? Well, for one thing, it would be another gargoyle. Maybe Demona's good in this iteration, or maybe it's a new character. Or maybe Angela ISN'T Goliath's daughter in this version (don't think about it...). Or maybe Brooklyn's the hero and Angela goes with him instead of Broadway.

-For that matter, eating and being strong would be ALL there is to Broadway. Oh, sure he'd have the occasional spotlight episode where he saves the day, but don't expect anything in it to carry over to the next episode. He'll remain a fairly one-note character.

-Their theme song (yes, it would be a song) may feature some sort of roll call (similar to the one for TMNT). I once tried to imagine something like that...my imagination went on strike.

I must admit, this sort of speculation is fun. However, it's also kind of narrow-minded. I mean, going back to "Dungeons & Dragons," it was pretty much '80s toon all the way for the first season, but starting in the second season (especially the episodes written by Michael Reaves) it really started to show some promise. Heck, Reaves's episode "The Dragon's Graveyard" has our main heroes decide to KILL Venger (the big bad). Yeah, they're not allowed to say "kill" and they pull back at the end (Reaves even manages to make THAT work), but that was still something daring (they had to fight to get that ep made). What I'm saying is, if "Gargoyles" really had been made in the '80s, there would be differences, but not all the horrific ones we have in mind if it still kept the same creative team of Weisman, Paur, Reaves, etc. (of course, I don't know what they were all doing in the '80s, so...).
On that note, I'll leave you with one last thought of what "Gargoyles" could have been in the '80s if selling a line of toys (ala "He-Man") was the main impetus of it's creation:
-The gargoyles are the monstrous villains, the Pack (or maybe the Canmore siblings) are the heroes.
Don't believe me? Look at one of the "Main Concerns" Kenner gave when they got the nod to make "Gargoyles" action figures:
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=296

It's good to be able to do this from home again. Now if I can just get my net access to work properly....
Until next time! ****Blaise does back-flips of joy right out the window of the Comment Room. After a minute or two, a distant splat is heard.****
Blaise
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 10:17:15 pm EST from 68.122.164.94

yea, no i got that, i just found it silly.. but at the same time wanted to point out that i had nothing againsed "online identities" (to those who preffer not to use their real names). ..AND wanted to state the difference between an online identity and trying to turn your fictional characters into functioning members of real society. haha!
sTiTcH
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 2:03:56 pm EST from 64.12.117.134

sTiTcH> The multiple identity thing was happening before you joined us, and was found out pretty quickly.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 10:47:03 am EST from 71.56.36.35

stitch is not MY real name, but its always been the one i go by on the internet. not for protection of my family (doubtfull i'll join a board of murderous fans who'll track your ass down if you talk $#!t about their favorite character), or because i like to pretend im a superhero, but because i just never felt comfortable giving out my real name on the web to a bunch of strangers.
i dont pretend to be a totally different person though, im just me with a different name.
and i dont see the point of having multiple identities in a group thats, for the most part, trying to be serious.

i didnt even notice certain posters were infact the same person yet...with contradicting oppinions..

on WOW that makes sence.. but on a message board??
sTiTcH
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 10:22:17 am EST from 64.12.117.134

Daniel> I was perfectly fine with letting the multiple identities thing go. A lot of forums do allow for people using sock puppets and I understand how the comment room can be a little confusing to newcomers. But comparing yourself to Superman and Batman and Gillecomgain (really?) isn't helping your case any. I seriously doubt anyone is going to come after your friends or family in any way because they didn't agree with what you said on the internet. Most people counter the possibility of that happening by picking one username (or at least one per website) that isn't their real name. If "Daniel Abraham Raviv" is not your real name, then you're fine. If it is, then I'm very skeptical of your claim that you're trying to protect your friends and family from any negative feelings your behavior online may earn you. And do you realize that you've made one post saying that you stand by what you say and another post saying you have to use multiple identities in case people don't like what you're saying? Which is it?

I agree with D Taina that your habit of answering what are mostly other people's opinions with "No" and then going on to state your own opinion is rude and disrespectful. When I've had conversations with you in this comment room, I get the feeling that you aren't paying enough attention to what other people have written. When I pointed out that we already know that "A Midsummer Night's Dream" can't be totally accurate because Greg W had already said that Oberon and Titania weren't yet married in that time period, you responded that you didn't remember Greg W saying that, even though Greg B had quoted a question and answer from Ask Greg which dealt with that exact topic in an earlier post. Every time I or anyone else ask you for a link to back up a claim you've made - like future storylines for "Clone Wars" or an "Indiana Jones" animated series and so on, you seem to ignore it. The comment room is for communicating with other people, so I think it would help you out a lot if you would make an effort to read what people are saying to you more carefully.

Antiyonder> I maintain a great fondness for "Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends." Yes, it's very silly at times and the animation is by no means top notch and Ms. Lion can apparently breathe underwater, but it is fun, the voice cast is generally good, and sometimes it's a nice break from the more emotionally tormented vision of superheroes that seems to be more common these days. There's just something very appealing about three superheroes who all get along, all know each other's secret identities, have a secret headquarters in their home, and seldom have any worse problems that the villain of the week.

The FOX "Spider-Man" has some very strong points, including a largely stellar voice cast and lots of continuity between episodes. But eventually, I think the story lost its way and to me, it just felt too far away from the core concept of Spider-Man. The visual look of the show also proved to be a stumbling block. There are a handful of episodes where the animation looks very good, but most of the time you can see the animators struggling with character designs that aren't all that easy to animate given the schedule and budget that the show had. I think that's part of why Greg W wanted a more stylized look for "Spectacular Spider-Man", one that could be drawn consistently and animated well.

Aside from its earworm of a theme song, I have little use for the 60s "Spider-Man" cartoon, mostly because the role of Peter is completely miscast to the point where he sounds nothing like a teenager, which I feel is essential for the character.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 9:03:50 am EST from 146.115.115.33

@Antiyonder: I was religiously following Spiderman and his Amazing Friends, although that was a bit difficult, since the TV Guide gave all series as just Spiderman. My favourite was Firestar.

I have fond memories of the early 90s when I saw all those 80s cartoons. The Wall had gone down and many many more programmes became available, we got our first color TV. It was practically visual, aural and story overkill for me.

I remember that whenever I visited my grandparents (who were connected to a satellite dish) that Captain Future would come on, that series was really different somehow, although nowadays one best bears it in another language and with a few snarky friends at hand.
Anonymous
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 6:59:23 am EST from 89.246.206.63

Daniel : "Gillecomgain also keeps it a secret so his family and his reputation won't get hurt." His reputation, perhaps, but if the flashback in "Hunter's Moon, part 1" gives us anything to go by, I highly doubt that he'd have much cared for his family.
Spen
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 5:44:22 am EST from 66.43.205.110

Been meaning to give my few cents on cartoons from the 80s since it was brought up earlier this week. Looking back on them, they lack substance for the most part, but I enjoy them as guilty pleasure/fun.

I agree with The Real Ghostbusters as being the best 80s cartoon. And I will see about getting the set eventually.

Other cartoons from the decade that I would say are decent would be The Incredible Hulk and Spider-Man.

Which does bring me to my question. We've discussed our opinions on The Spectacular Spider-Man and to a degree, the 90s animated series. What did everyone else think of as far as the quality of Spider-Man (1981) and Spider-Man And His Amazing Friends?

Amazing Friends: I generally see this as another fun series. It's certainly not the best cartoon, but along with the 90s Marvel cartoons, it gave me more exposure to characters from the Marvel Universe. Plus Peter, Bobby and Angelica had some great chemistry as friends.

The solo Spider-Man series: Aside from lack of continuity from episode to episode (not counting the Doctor Doom storyline), it felt pretty much like the early Spider-Man comics.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 2:53:26 am EST from 71.120.226.102

ughhh, sorry again but Gillecomgain also keeps it a secret so his family and his reputation won't get hurt. As well as The Phantom (Not The Phantom Of The Opera but the comic book Superhero). Oh and another reason that i keep secret identities is so i can create new characters, new People, much like what they do!
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 2:41:39 am EST from 24.7.204.215

Well yes, so people won't know who i am and treat my family bad because they know they're related to me. If people think bad about me, i don't want them to think bad about my family. But thk, you gave me a good reason to keep my alternate identities and more. Thk U! Also who do i email to sign up for the Gathering Of The Gargoyles Again, Please answer Me?
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 2:33:52 am EST from 24.7.204.215

Daniel: Sure, we can talk. My e-mail address is right next to my name.
D. Taina - [demona3 at hotmail dot com]
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 2:31:32 am EST from 74.213.121.140

Daniel> well Superman denies that he's Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne Deny's that he is and that he knows Batman, and Gillecomgain would deny that he's the Hunter, so well there you have it.

They are also fictional characters. And aside from Gillecomgain, Clark and Bruce keep their identities secret for the sake of keeping their friends and family safe. I doubt you can honestly make such a claim.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 2:29:12 am EST from 71.120.226.102

Uughh, and sorry i didn't put this on my previous comment but i can't edit it, so listen, D Taina, I like your website and I'd like to talk to you about some stuff, can we be friends, or no way?
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 2:24:55 am EST from 24.7.204.215

Well no, i don't or at least i don't mean to! and no, no need for Self Evaluation, D Taina and everyone else. I'm fine the way i am and nothing will change that. Also about Denying that I'm the same person and that i know the other identities, well Superman denies that he's Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne Deny's that he is and that he knows Batman, and Gillecomgain would deny that he's the Hunter, so well there you have it, i do it as i keep my secret identity. Also you're right maybe i shouldn't have so much identities (Except for writing books and movies), for George Washington didn't care what people thought of him, he kept to his beliefs and maybe i should do the same, my goal is to make people happy not to be famous or liked!
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 2:21:52 am EST from 24.7.204.215

Daniel: I'm going to assume that you were talking to me since you didn't mention names. Yes, you do contradict yourself sometimes. Having multiple identities and then denying that you know each other sounds like a contradiction to me. If you need to resort to having different identities because you're afraid people won't like you then maybe it's time for some self-evaluation. And please, try to put everything you want to say into one post.

That's the last thing I'm going to say about this here. If you want to continue the conversation, then e-mail me.
D. Taina - [demona3 at hotmail dot com]
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 2:02:53 am EST from 74.213.121.140

Oh and one last thing, The Hunter's The Most Original Type Of Super villain ever, the closest villain to the Hunter ever was DC Comics' Red Hood. But that's it! Good working Greg!
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 1:36:18 am EST from 24.7.204.215

And I'm not contradicting myself or don't mean too! and i'm not changing the story, i stick by what i say. If you're refering to as how i have several identities it's because i don't want people to know who i am, i want to try pen names, i want to test everything i say or do, and more. So Sorry!
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 1:28:58 am EST from 24.7.204.215

Oh i thought you were talking to me, sorry! Also i love the comics too! By the way, i just went and saw Macbeth in The Chicago Shakespeare Theater, and i can't believe how they did it, setting it during modern times, putting sex in it, does anyone else here live in Chicago or just visit and saw this play. Yuck, give me Gargoyle's Macbeth anytime!
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 1:21:44 am EST from 24.7.204.215

Shara, Mochi> Wow, we have a lot of designers in here. I myself am deep in the middle of working on my portfolio and application for a graduate program in game design (deadline Feb. 1st). Shara, I'd love to hear more about what you do. And congrats on the job!
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."
posted @ Fri, Jan 9, 2009 12:10:32 am EST from 69.112.108.43

Shara> Congrats on the new job. Real life tends to take priority, so I can wait for it to come when you put out the next comic update.
Asatira
posted @ Thu, Jan 8, 2009 10:35:32 pm EST from 68.190.20.172

One other S&P matter relating to "Gargoyles": they wound up having two sword-stabbings in the series despite avoiding it in most of "City of Stone": Canmore stabbing Macbeth in the back in "City of Stone Part Four" (though it isn't a permanent death) and Constantine running Kenneth through in "Avalon Part One".
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Thu, Jan 8, 2009 8:42:50 pm EST from 4.244.212.216

Shara >> Video game design?! *gasp* You have to tell me what it's like being part of the industry, especially since you're in the industry I want to be in! 8D
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>/ \)> Stressed out... So not good...
posted @ Thu, Jan 8, 2009 7:48:58 pm EST from 209.247.78.54

Hey all sorry I have not been around.

Started a new job in video game desgin and been busy.

Gargoyle webcomic is still up and running. We have an issue almost ready to post. Due to my new job and being busy the last couple months we couldnt get an issue out.

I should have a new issue up next month. Take a look if you have not already and give us support and feedback so we can keep the project going.

Looking forward to the gathering. *HUGS*
Shara
posted @ Thu, Jan 8, 2009 4:53:16 pm EST from 76.170.153.124

That kind of junk really annoys me. Parents blaming TV, video games, and comics for their child's behavior. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Whatever happened to being a PARENT? I wish parents would stop expecting all of society to bend over backwards accommodate their children.
Rebel
GOLIATH: I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING SHAKESPEAREAN NOW.
posted @ Thu, Jan 8, 2009 4:13:56 pm EST from 66.218.211.93

Ahh, many thanks Demonskyre.

This is what happens when you work with Barnes & Noble. You hear 'novel' and you go nuts. :-P
Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 8, 2009 2:06:01 pm EST from 76.219.185.199

Antiyonder> I agree that most of the S&P notes on "American Dragon" are ridiculous and arbitrary, but I think ym point still stands. Sometimes it is just S&P reps being ridiculous, but sometimes I think they're just overcautious because our society itself is ridiculous. Even if any sane person would say that dragons are mythological creatures and insisting that they wear helmet while flying or jumping is borderline insane, I wouldn't doubt that there is some parent out there who wouldn't hesitate to say "My son was watching your dragon show and the dragon was jumping off a building and flying without a helmet so my son jumped off our porch without a helmet and now I'm going to sue you!" and get the case heard.

Guardian> I took a look and I think the people in the chat room are referring to the "Gargoyles" trade paperbacks, the collected book versions of the Slave Labor comics.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 8, 2009 9:52:44 am EST from 146.115.115.33

@ stitch: God, yeah. :) That one.
Brook
posted @ Thu, Jan 8, 2009 7:31:20 am EST from 84.191.243.80

Spen> Not a problem. :)
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Thu, Jan 8, 2009 1:33:18 am EST from 69.223.185.221

its kool brook.
i didnt know about the previous wierdos but i do know certain hardcore fans of things like to get really nasty toward "noobs" of any kind.. and i was sorta waiting for the first person to swing their nuts at me.. haha

but yea, i was on a few other boards for other things, and its amazing how hard people will adopt the series for themselves and insist on certain ideas dispite the fact that the CREATORS said they were wrong. ...much like one post i saw on here from some girl telling greg that in her mind lex will never be gay and then proceeded to gaybash. i really wish he hadnt been so polite to her.. lol
sTiTcH
posted @ Wed, Jan 7, 2009 11:10:12 pm EST from 205.188.117.134

Apologies for interrupting, but I saw over in the s8 chatroom something about novels? Could anyone clarify please?
Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 7, 2009 10:13:20 pm EST from 76.219.185.199

Is it just me, or is GargWiki's homepage messed up. I can't even log on :/
lonerider26 - [lonerider26 at gmail dot com]
"The story is told-though who can say if it be true..."~Shari
posted @ Wed, Jan 7, 2009 10:06:35 pm EST from 24.7.198.21

KingCobra : Ah, thanks. That explains why I didn't remember it; "The Green" was one of the episodes that I didn't tape the first time around, so I haven't seen it in about twelve years.
Spen
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"
posted @ Wed, Jan 7, 2009 8:17:48 pm EST from 66.43.205.110

Hey stitch,
Nothing against you. We just had some people pop in here and behave.. weird... anybody remember that Macbeth fan who typed so funny?

I recall this certain rambling by Greg about a weird atmosphere also...

It's not you, no offence. All I want to say is that in the past month, there have been many strange people popping in here, and I truly ask myself why.

And I don't really mean you Daniel, but people are a bit jumpy I guess. Especially if people stick to their opinnions, although they are proven false.

See - I look this up NOT because I'm an insane nerd fan, nor becauseI want to battle or provoke people - I am a guy who wants to discuss one of my fav. cartoon shows and check and discuss updates.

So I really feel there is no use in getting rough, on both the newby and, uh, oldby (?) side.

As mentioned before: nobody hates anybody in here. But still, people should try to not annoy others as much as they might, whether it is intentional or unintentional. A discussion does not improve by one party saying "But I AM right!!" *stomps on ground*

OK? :) OK. :)
Brook
posted @ Wed, Jan 7, 2009 5:42:21 pm EST from 84.191.236.211

its actually kinda funny about "deadly force" because a few years back when i first noticed toon disney was running the series, i noticed they totally skipped that episode the two times i was able to watch the whole series through. but being unemployed and having nothing better to do at 4:30am every day, i saw that just the other week they DID play it. ..could be they came to their senses, or just another case of disney changing exects like they change underwear.

and i saw Brook made a comment about new people.
i am new but i assure you its nothing to raise your fur about.. i've been a fan of this series since it first aired, i just wasnt aware it still had such a strong active fanbase that i could join the ranks of. and if im talking about things that have already been talked about, well, its because im new and havent heard these things the 67 times that everyone else has ^_^
sTiTcH
posted @ Wed, Jan 7, 2009 3:31:25 pm EST from 205.188.117.134

Antiyonder here. I'm using a library computer at the moment.

Demonskrye> I agree that the Kim Possible bit had a legitamite reason to be edited, but my point is that the objections to American Dragon were too much.

Brook> Deadly Force may have been intense, but parents "approved" of the episode wholeheartedly, making the pulling of the episode unnecessary. If parents objected to the episode, then holding back on it would have made sense.
Anonymous
posted @ Wed, Jan 7, 2009 12:34:37 pm EST from 66.225.14.190

Antiyonder> S&P weirdness has been with us for quite some time. The book "Batman Animated" has a page or two devoted to some of the note the Batman team got while they were working on the show, as well as a drawing designed to demonstrate every major concept that S&P considered a no-no. Some are pretty understandable; I'm pretty sure whoever wrote the note that said something along the lines of "I can't believe they want us to cut the scene where the hyenas stick their heads in the baby carriage and chow down!" was being at least a little facetious. (I don't recall how the scene went exactly in the final episode, but my guess is that the next thing the audience would see was that the carriage was actually being used to transport something like a large ham and not a baby and that the joke is that second of horror followed by humorous relief when you see what's actually going on.) Some were even kind of regretful, like the S&P rep who realized that "Oh my God" was probably the most logical and natural thing for a person to say in that situation, but wondered if there was something they could substitute that would still work. And then there's "Third thug must be Caucasian," without any context or further explanation.

If someone had come to me and said "I'm working on a 'Kim Possible' script where she can't stop herself from telling the truth about anything and there's a part where she says that even though smoking is a nasty habit and terrible for your health, it does actually look cool," I would have said "That's never going to fly." S&P may get a bad rap and sometimes deservedly so, but sometimes they are just doing there job, which is to make sure that there's nothing in the show that the majority of people will find objectionable. Because something like that can come back and bite a studio pretty badly. Can you imagine the media circus that would have resulted if that piece of dialogue had stayed in the "Kim Possible" script? No one would have bothered to point out the fact that Kim was unable to stop herself from telling the truth at the time, or even that she also said that it was disgusting and bad for your health. All we'd hear from every hysteria peddling journalist across the country is how a Disney character told kids that smoking is cool. Parents with nothing better to do would be outraged. The episode would be taken off the air and never shown again. Disney would issue a bunch of press statements and likely donate a few million dollars to anti-smoking programs. And people would lose their jobs, probably including the S&P rep. Remember the infamous "pollen scene" in "The Lion King"? It actually spelled "SFX" for the special effects department, but that wasn't enough to keep the effects animator responsible from getting fired. My point is, yes, sometimes it is just the stupid S&P being silly and capricious and making fairly arbitrary decision about what is and isn't allowed. But sometimes, it's more our stupid society that necessitates the existence of the S&P so that studios are protected from having their product offend or upset anyone.

I think we're now at the point where the mainstream accept the idea of cartoons aimed at an older audience to a point. You have your standard kids' fare - some good, some not, and you have cartoons that aren't suitable for children. They get aired in the later hours when the small fry are in bed and typically feature a bunch of warnings up front in case anyone should be unaware that this is not a cartoon for the kids. (Even "Clone Wars" has started displaying the shows content rating at the start of every act and it's really not that bad for young kids to watch.) The thing that becomes a problem is that much of the kids' stuff is totally uninteresting to most adults and much of the adult stuff is only labeled "adult" because it's completely inappropriate for the kids. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a good kids' show that appeal only to kids. And on the other side, I love "Venture Brothers" and feel that the mature aspects of the show - while not the entire reason I enjoy it - are an integral part of the series. What bugs me more are show that just use the equivalent of flashing lights to distract kids from the total lack of substance or story or supposedly "adult" show which - if you removed the adult language and nudity and graphic violence and whatever - would still work equally well as not very funny kids' shows. The sort of "bridge shows" the ones that can appeal to an older audience and a younger one simultaneously, are what's really rare. There are some children's shows that attract something of and adult following through being weird or subversive: "Ren and Stimpy," "The Misadventures of Flapjack," "Chowder," and even "Spongebob Squarepants." But the shows that speak to a vairety of age groups simply by being really smart are an even smaller minority. "Avatar" is right on the cusp and "Justice League" is so far into that territory that I'd be willing to debate whether it was even aimed at kids at all during later seasons. But there's not much out there.

There are things being done in TV animation today that we might not have seen ten years ago, but it's on a very case-by-case, network-by-network basis. The fact that Cartoon Network has done pretty well with Adult Swim or that Nickelodeon had a huge success with "Avatar" doesn't necessarily mean that any other networks will try to follow in their footsteps. And Disney probably would be the last company to try to rock the boat and really back a cartoon that isn't 100% family friendly, meaning kid appeal all the way.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 7, 2009 12:26:16 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

DF simply was "too adult" I guess. I mean it certainly is no touchy issue - quite the contrary, guns are used rather often throughout cartoon shows. But showing that they can actually inflict a lot of damage - not just to the victim but also to those close to that person - seemed to go too far...

Reminds me of how a child shot himself by accident this fall when he was on a shooting stand, trying to shoot pumpkins with an uzi... :S
Brook
posted @ Wed, Jan 7, 2009 11:46:44 am EST from 84.191.190.149

Landon> But I don't know if I believe that. Justice League, prime time, and Adult Swim indicate that there are some outlets for more mature cartoons. The biggest problem is that Americans perceive cartoons as being for kids. Disney TV would be the last company to break that (mis)perception.

But the point of this discussion is whether there's a chance for mature animation for younger viewers. Justice League fits that discussion, but Adult Swim is for the older demograph.

Like Greg W said, mature animation is merely the exception, not the rule. Still we had Avatar and W.I.T.C.H.. We have The Spectacular Spider-Man and the upcoming Wolverine And The X-Men cartoon.

But to illustrate how hard it is to make something like Gargoyles today, the behind the scenes news of American Dragon Jake Long prove that. Whereas Greg would have support from Standards and Practices with the occasional objection (Like stabbing Duncan Canmore), the creators of Amercian Dragon got plenty of objections. Here's a page that mentions them. Scroll down to the title "Smoking is cool":

http://amdrag.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_archive.html

And of course there's the fact that Toon Disney execs had a great deal of hesitation when it came to rerunning Deadly Force, despite the fact that the episode was praised by parents. If it had backlash I could understand it being withheld.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 7, 2009 10:59:35 am EST from 71.120.226.102

Gang, isn't anybody a bit... concerned about how many newlings dropped by in the past weeks that wrote ina weird style and pretty muh twited many things that both Greg has said and were seen in the show/comics?

I just really felt a bad atmosphere in here...
Brook
posted @ Wed, Jan 7, 2009 8:02:18 am EST from 84.191.235.223

Spen> That line's from 'The Green'.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Wed, Jan 7, 2009 7:41:25 am EST from 69.223.185.221

sTiTch > Clan-Building Volume 2 and the Bad Guys trade paperback are still going to be released, with all the comics that havnt been released listed as 'bonus material' for our view pleasure. Still seems to be no word on when it will be released but we can be assured that it will happen... someday ^_&
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Wed, Jan 7, 2009 3:12:43 am EST from 71.206.9.183

oh by the way
im not quite clear on this yet.. the cancelation of the comic contract wont effect the release of "clan building vol.2" (due this month unless im mistaken) will it?
or should i get my ass on ebay and start looking for the individual comics before they become colectors relics?

someone help me if they know anything.. thanks
sTiTcH
posted @ Wed, Jan 7, 2009 1:28:28 am EST from 205.188.117.134

i bet if cartoon network picked it up like it did futurama, family guy, and johnny bravo, not only would the rest of the series be released but the show would be BROUGHT BACK! i honestly dont see how anyone over there (at disney) cant see that this is a great show that only needs a little serious promo to get it noticed again.. i really wonder if they're trying to make a point by only playing on premium cable at 4 in the morning and then calling it a forgotten show with low ratings. >:( ..gee i wonder why THAT is!!...
sTiTcH
posted @ Wed, Jan 7, 2009 1:20:14 am EST from 205.188.117.134

sTiTcH - Ah, I get you now. From the 'depth' perspective, you could certainly call Gargoyles ahead of its time. In fact, much of the early Disney afternoon was exceptional. Of course I'm biased since I grew up on Darkwing Duck and TaleSpin. But I still secretly hope since Lasseter's now the head of the animation studio, he'll stumble across some of the old material and get some use out of it. I could certainly see Gargoyles doing well today. We need a new catchphrase. 'Better Than Hannah'?
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 11:35:51 pm EST from 216.250.163.157

Volpe : Off the top of my head, I can't recall Hyena having said that particular line. Do you know what episode it was from?
Spen
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 11:24:45 pm EST from 66.43.205.110

landon>
well i definatly didnt mean it should still be aimed at the "disney kids" audience. and im not talking about getting away with content (greg has said a few times there wouldnt have been any gratuity wether it was on disney or adult swim). what i mean is the actual depth of the show.. the stories, the characters, etc. it was a very mature show that i think was aimed at the wrong audience, and the corp exects had the wrong expectations of it.
and if anything, i think today we DO have a more.. we'll call it "open mind".. about cartoons not necessarily being just for kids. today animation is allowed to have more detail and highlight certain things that young kids wouldnt get or just not notice. i think if gargoyles was a 21st century teen show, it would have done itself way more justice, and probably would have been more successfull than it was. and its sad because i feel like the reason we cant grab the attention of todays audience and give it the success it should have had, is because it looks like a little kids show.

and haveing said all that, on a side note:
any writers out there, never... NNEEVVEERR... sell the rights to your work. im not exactly sure how this process works (my boyfriend does because he's in film school) but there are ways to get aired/published without giving your baby away.
sTiTcH
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 10:49:10 pm EST from 205.188.117.134

Daniel: You're contradicting the comic now? "All things are true... few things are accurate" is a line from the comics. It's actually a longer version of the line "All things are true," which is in the show. It's not "all things are accurate" as you say. That's the complete opposite of the original line. You need to figure out what you're saying because I don't think anybody has the slightest clue what you're talking about. You're always contradicting yourself and changing your story. By the way, if you want people to like you, you need to stop starting every opinion with either a "Yes" or "No" as if it were fact. That's one of the quickest ways to get on everybody's last nerve.
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 10:40:17 pm EST from 74.213.121.140

Yeah, so a while back, we had a question on what our favorite quotes from the Gargoyles series were and at the ime, I was too busy to answer. But since we're going back in time this week, I figured I'd do the same ;)

My favorite quotes are the following:

Hyena: "And since you two went through all the trouble of crashing my party, the LEAST I can do is make sure you have a BLAST!"

~

Jackal-Anubis: "Life and death at my command...I LIKE it!"

~

Sevarius: "I don't know if this will work. I'm not used to working in such PRIMITIVE conditions."
Goliath: "Just get back to work...before conditions really DO get primitive.

~

Fang: "Man, you chick are better than soaps!"
VoLpE
Killer threads! ~ Edge
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 10:36:02 pm EST from 75.74.180.96

No, All things are accurate, look can we just drop this and wait until i get the chance to ask Greg myself, is that alright?
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 10:07:44 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

Daniel> All things are true... few things are accurate.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Do not despise the day of small beginnings." -Zechariah 4:10
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 10:00:03 pm EST from 70.232.142.230

Well He said that they both took place In The Gargoyles Universe. And i don't remember him saying that Oberon And Titania weren't married then, he said the events of the play everything did take place. And to sum up with Macbeth, He combined both, the real Macbeth Story and The Play into the Gargoyles Universe, it has elements of both. Also I know the answer is yes about the Mythological beings, but the question is which Mythological beings would also be included, i was wondering if those i mentioned will be in The Gargoyles Universe, because it'll be cool to have them there and show others. You Know!
By the way many of you are staff at the Gathering Right? well if any of you were staff at the 2008 Gathering, i want to know if one of you is the guy that attacked me mentally because i criticized how the vulture looked in Greg's new Spider-Man Series, do you remember? Also later when i took Karine Charelbois's Comics (For i didn't know i had to pay for them, i'm not a thief okay, and i'm feeling guilty about it still, I'm So Sorry) you later approached me , grabbed me and said ''Next Time, ask before you take'' and all that, do you remember me now, or you don't write in this Board, I'm just asking? I just want to talk to you!
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 9:29:54 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

Sorry for the double post but...

Daniel> I think that other question would likely be rejected as an idea masquerading as a question. In order to make in vague enough to be accepted, you would have to change it to something like "Will other mythological beings appear in the Gargoyles universe as Oberon's children or something?" which I don't think would be worth asking because we pretty much know the answer is "yes."
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 9:15:58 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Daniel> No one is expressing any personal feelings here. It's just a matter of whether what you're saying is sufficiently verifiable that it can be put on GargWiki. First you said that Greg W. had told you that "A Midsummer Night's Dream" took place in the Gargoyles universe, and the wiki did get edited to say that many of the events of the play happened in the Gargoyles universe. I think it would have been too much to say "all" since we don't know that for certain and we do know at the very least that Oberon and Titania weren't yet married at the time the plays is supposed to take place, making it inaccurate on at least one count. Then you started saying that Greg had said the same thing about Macbeth and we got a bit confused, since we know the Shakespeare play "Macbeth" does not accurately reflect what happened in the Gargoyles universe. So we changed the wording in the "Midsummer Night's Dream" article from "many" to "some." Then you started saying that Greg W. had told you that only half of "Macbeth" actually occurred in the Gargoyles universe and I don't have the slightest idea what that means. What it all boils down to is that we don't have anything concrete to go on here, like an answer from Ask Greg. If one or two people who've been around here for a while comes on and says "Yes, I remember that talk at the Gathering and Greg said (whatever)," I think it'd at least be considered for inclusion in GargWiki. It's not that anyone thinks you're inherently untrustworthy. it's just that your new here and your story about this has been a little bit confusing.

Frank;y, what i'm really wondering is why you care about this so much. What does it really matter whether this gets onto GargWiki or not? It's not really a tragedy if it is actually true and it's not on GargWiki right now. When issue #8 of the comic came out, just about everyone here was 99% that the little unicorn gargoyle was Lunette and the hippogriff gargoyle was Old Pog, but the editors at GargWiki decided it was best to wait until Greg confirmed it on Ask Greg before making it official there. Ask Greg will probably open up again whenever the Gargoyles and Bad Guys trade get released, so you can just ask for clarification then.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 9:08:03 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Well Thk You. Yes i'll ask Greg next time oh by the way guys, can i ask am i allowed to ask this question to Greg, or he won't answer this, Will other Mythological Beings, Like El Pachuco, Puca', Spring-Heeled Jack, Zeus, Elektra (The Nymph, not Daredevil's Girlfriend), and Typhoon make an Appearance In The Gargoyles Universe as Oberon's Children or something? I for a long time wanted to ask this but Greg's Limits on questions are strict, so i don't know whether this is something he'll answer or not, Should i post this question as well?
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 9:01:10 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

I wasn't at the Gathering but I did post a journal of CONvergence this year and covered several of Greg's panels. When Greg responded, he corrected five inaccuracies in my original post, much to my surprise.

So it's not an insult to you Daniel, it's just that people mishear and Greg misspeaks. A wiki has to be very accurate to be of any use. When AskGreg accepts questions again, get a clarification on that point so we can all know for sure and so Greg has time to think about it and write a definitive answer. And I don't want you to leave. I'm sure everyone agrees.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 8:54:53 pm EST from 216.250.163.157

Macbeth did take place in the Gargoyles universe, look i know it's more based on the real macbeth, but Half of the play still exists, The Weird Sisters, Some Characters that only exist in the play, as well as events that only happened in the play. Half of The Play takes place in The Gargoyles Universe.
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 8:47:46 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

Daniel, just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they consider you an enemy. As far as I recall no one has posted in this Comment Room that you are not liked.

I honestly think that this is all a misunderstanding. Daniel writes in a way that is hard to read, I think, and this and what Demonskyre opined makes me think that Daniel may well be recalling correctly what Greg told him at the Gathering, but not explaining it well to us.

*shrugs*
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Do not despise the day of small beginnings." -Zechariah 4:10
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 8:33:54 pm EST from 70.232.142.230

No one is telling you that you are not liked. They are telling you that you are mistaken on the Macbeth issue. The events that Shakespeare wrote in his play did NOT actually happen in real world history, nor did they happen in Gargoyles universe history.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 8:32:45 pm EST from 173.88.151.62

why am i the enemy and the not liked one here?
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 8:13:10 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

You guys were at the gathering right, 2008? In the private conversations with Greg, i asked him did Characters From A Midsummer Night's Dream And Macbeth (I actually just wanted to ask him if Mustardseed, Cobweb, And those other fairies will appear in Gargoyles as Oberon's Children or something, but he replied don't mention their names) so i asked him If Midsummer Night's Dream And Macbeth Characters appeared in The Gargoyles Universe which he said, yes, Midsummer Night's Dream Characters and Macbeth Characters will appear in The Gargoyles Universe as well as characters from The Tempest, and They will appear and meet the main characters in future Gargoyles Productions, really i was there, some of you were there too during his interview, you heard it right? because He did!
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 8:10:25 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

Daniel> I don't believe you. Sorry.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Temptation" is one of my favorite episodes because it features Demona beating up rednecks. God, how I hate rednecks!" -Me
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 8:04:00 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Well I talked to Greg during the 2008 Gathering and he said that they both took place completely in the Gargoyles Universe , and i didn't say that he told me that The Play Macbeth was accurate completely in the Gargoyles Universe, but half of it did, characters that only exist in the play are in the Gargoyles Universe as well as some events from the play, and others also The parts where Duncan is being nice to him is in The Gargoyles universe him tricking Macbeth, much like what he did when he told Macbeth about Gillecomgain. Also he told me that A Midsummer Night's Dream took place in The Gargoyles Universe completely and that we will even see the characters in future Gargoyles projects.
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 8:03:03 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

Battle Beaste - About Whit & Stormy. Not sure if they're planning on getting married, but they are a couple. They live here in Ottawa where Whit is interning as Dr. Whit. They were over for a visit a few weeks ago ^_^. I wish others would speak up tho-cause I know there are other Garg couples out there.

As for the Gargs Cel - I'm envious. of all the Gargs merchendise I have, a real animation cel is the one thing I don't have...and really can't afford.
Wingless
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 7:29:46 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

Daniel> We had a discussion on GargWiki after you revealed that Greg W. had said that both "A Midsummer Night's Dream" AND "Macbeth" take place in the Gargoyles universe. As Greg B. has said more than once, we already know from the flashbacks in "City of Stone" that William Shakespeare's play "Macbeth" are not an accurate representation of what happened during the life of the real Macbeth in the Gargoyles universe. The real Macbeth didn't murder anyone. Duncan was an unpopular king who was slain on the battlefield, not murdered by Macbeth while he was a guest in Macbeth's home. Gruoch never egged Macbeth on to win the crown for himself as Lady Macbeth did in the play. And so on and so forth. Since Greg W. said that both plays "took place" in the Gargoyles universe and we know that the events of "Macbeth" did not take place in the Gargoyles universe as they did in the play, we can't assume that the events of "A Midsummer Night's Dream" happened in the Gargoyles universe exactly or even roughly as the play describes them. In light of that, an edit seemed necessary. i decided to change "many events" to "some events" to reflect the fact that Greg W. has only specifically mentioned a few things from "A Midsummer Night's Dream" which are in the Gargoyles universe. I stand by that edit until we have more information.

I really think this is a matter of misunderstanding. My best guess is that Greg W. actually meant that William Shakespeare wrote the plays "Macbeth" and "A Midsummer Night's Dream" in the Gargoyles universe just as he did in ours.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 7:10:43 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Wingless> Whitbourne & Stormy ^_^. > Does that mean what I think it means? Not that there's anything wrong with that...

I showed my new cousin, a day old, an episode of Gargoyles. One with a lot of Elisa. Awakening 4. My Cousin was tired and sleeping and I held the baby. We watched.

And, I am going to buy one of the cels. thanks, Demonskrye!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 7:09:23 pm EST from 75.156.190.146

Battle Beast : Mara & Aaron also met at a Gathering. And as I recall, Coyote & Ravyn met through the fandom.
Spen
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 7:07:45 pm EST from 66.43.205.110

Daniel> Once again, we SAW the Macbeth story in "Gargoyles." We saw it. We know what went down there.

As for "A Midsummer Night's Dream"

*********

Did the events of a Midsummer Night's Dream happen in the Gargoyles Universe? And if so did they happen as Shakespeare wrote them or differently?

Greg responds...

Events occurred, but I'm not going to go into it at this time.
Response recorded on August 22, 2008

***

You mentioned in response to a recent question from DPH that Oberon overthrew Queen Mab and married Titania after he fathered Merlin. Did I read this correctly? I certainly found it intriguing, since I'd always assumed that Oberon took over from Mab long before Merlin's birth. (I suppose that this also means, again if I read your response correctly, that Oberon wasn't cheating on Titania after all when he begat Merlin.)

I take it that this also means that Shakespeare's portrayal of Oberon and Titania as a married couple in Theseus's time was an anachronism in the Gargoyles Universe? (Though it's probably no worse than the fact that Bottom and his fellow amateur actors seem more like Elizabethan Englishmen than ancient Athenians.)

Greg responds...

Yes, I see the era-combining of Theseus and a married Oberon/Titania as being fairly Xena-esque in its anachronism.
Response recorded on March 13, 2007

*************

I am still thinking that you misunderstood him, and until Greg says otherwise here, or in Ask Greg, the page is not changing.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Temptation" is one of my favorite episodes because it features Demona beating up rednecks. God, how I hate rednecks!" -Me
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 6:54:06 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Are you guys ignoring me? Am i not welcome here anymore? Do You guys not like me? Tell me the truth and I'll leave, i promise!
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 6:50:39 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

@ VOLPE: see the video I posted below. :)

Yeah, Brook would so sing that song!!
Brook
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 6:33:11 pm EST from 84.191.224.59

Hey guys, why does it say this on Gargoyles Wiki"
Greg Weisman has mentioned that some of the events of the play did take place in the Gargoyles universe, although Oberon and Titania were not yet married by that point in time and the ruler of the Third Race was still Queen Mab. Greg has also suggested that the Indian changeling boy over whom Oberon and Titania squabble in the play is actually the biological son of Oberon by a human woman.
I asked Greg myself and He said That A Midsummer Night's Dream and Half Of Macbeth play took place completely in The Gargoyles Universe. Really he said that, also He mentioned that the Tempest might take place in the Gargoyles Universe as well!
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 6:28:20 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

Before I participate in this, I just wanna say that I love the 80's and 90's because those are the eras I grew up in so LoL

Anyway, so if Gargoyles was an 80's cartoon, Brooklyn would overdo his "cool" attitude all the time and he'd also have a girlfriend right away.
VoLpE
Dude, you were like totally born today! ~ Christian, WWE
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 6:25:35 pm EST from 65.14.83.34

battle Beast - well the one of note that you might know would be Roy & Kiva (mind you, Roy was an animater on the series and Kiva was a fan). Athough not a big part of the fandom now, Pogo & Angela(Mitch & Aimie) who met as a result of the gathering. And although Not quite married yet, our own Canadian couple Whitbourne & Stormy ^_^. I know there are other "Clan couples" that I'm missing, but needless to say Gargoyles has had an impact on some peoples lives beyond just as a great TV show. I just wish it would work it's magic on me that way.

Feel free to throw in your story if you have one-or know of one.
Wingless
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 1:45:52 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

Todd Jensen - Didn't Greg say somewhere that he was able to get away with the Future Tense deaths because none of it really happened? It kind of makes you wonder where Greg would have led the series if there was no S&P. I mean, within the first few comic issues, we've already had a stabbing and a hanging.

sTiTcH - Some would say that cartoons are much more restricted now than they were during the syndication glory days of the early 90's because of close media scrutiny, hence Gargoyles could only have existed in its own time.

But I don't know if I believe that. Justice League, prime time, and Adult Swim indicate that there are some outlets for more mature cartoons. The biggest problem is that Americans perceive cartoons as being for kids. Disney TV would be the last company to break that (mis)perception.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 9:59:15 am EST from 216.250.163.157

patrick> oh i think it would have done much better if it were released today, and aimed at an older audience. ..and maybe had a better (more modern) animation department. i think one of the things that lead to its "demise" was being too deep for the crowd disney wanted, and too "kiddish" for many of the older viewers who might have appreciated it in a different medium.
would lord of the rings have been half as epic if it were an animated series for the disney-freakin-afternoon?? lol
sTiTcH
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 8:59:51 am EST from 64.12.117.134

Battle Beast> I saw a bunch on eBay a day or two ago, but they're fairly pricey. Van Eaton Galleries was out of them last I looked. I think there's at least one Elisa and Goliath in the eBay batch.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 7:52:09 am EST from 146.115.115.33

My favorite Elisa Maza quote is: "You work with handcuffs as much as I do, you pick up a few tricks."

If "Gargoyles" had been a 1980s show, every episode probably would have ended with a cheesy PSA just like "G.I. Joe." And the Smurfs would have had a guest appearance in the "City of Stone" flashbacks.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 6:53:17 am EST from 173.88.151.62

Though "Future Tense", probably the most death-laden episode in the television series, is able to kill off nearly all the cast without once having anyone fall off of anywhere. Disintegrations, turning gargoyles to stone and smashing them, and a regular death from a particle beam gun - but not one death by falling.
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 6:37:47 am EST from 4.244.209.137

Wingless> Marriages? Can you name names?

Oh yes, she has already seen Gargoyles! I am looking for an animation cell for her... one of Elisa, of course.
battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Tue, Jan 6, 2009 1:23:48 am EST from 75.156.190.146

aw thanks guys :-)
i actually did see that one mighty ducks blooper on youtube.
call me a freakish fangirl but jeff bennett has coincidently played the voice of all my favorite cartoon characters from childhood till now, if not atleast appearing regularly in a favorite show. i was practically raised on that mans voice.. haha!
i was just hopeing to get a glimse of the REAL him for once, rather than a well-played character.. but oh well. i respect his privacy.
sTiTcH
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 10:39:30 pm EST from 64.12.117.134

For the Spectacular Spider-man fans: http://tvshowsondvd.com/news/Spectacular-Spider-Man-Volumes-2-and-3/11117
The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Tony Tini
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 10:27:59 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

That line never much bothered me. I always attributed it to Elisa's somewhat dry, and ironic sense of humor anyway.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Temptation" is one of my favorite episodes because it features Demona beating up rednecks. God, how I hate rednecks!" -Me
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 8:51:16 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

I would think that the most infamous line in the series is Elisa's "This is a job for the gargoyles!"

Ugh.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Do not despise the day of small beginnings." -Zechariah 4:10
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 8:45:31 pm EST from 70.232.142.230

Off topic.

ATTN. HARVESTER OF EYES! If you can get on AIM any time soon, I think I'd like a word. There is potential fun to be had.

BWA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

Everyone else, carry on. ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Temptation" is one of my favorite episodes because it features Demona beating up rednecks. God, how I hate rednecks!" -Me
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 8:35:41 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Algernon: I never said that "sing along to" was necessarily a bad thing ;) But you're right, it could be epic in its own sense . . . .

Greg B: I would be led to beleive that G's 'infamous' line is probably from the Season 2's opening titles, "The spell is broken, AND WE LIVED AGAIN!!" But yes, his line in Awakening Part II is perhaps my most vivid and favorite memory from the series.

Well, that and perhaps the Weird Sister's lines to Grouch about Macbeth's and Demona's bond as well as the Archmage's line about bending the law instead of breaking it (which involved eating a book :D)
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 8:24:34 pm EST from 68.98.115.219

MATT> I mean in the sense that it was a terrific line, but he yelled it right after rescuing someone who he didn't particularly like. Like he was mad at himself for losing his chance for revenge because he did the right thing.

It was a great moment, but it was one of Goliath's darker moments. I love it.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Temptation" is one of my favorite episodes because it features Demona beating up rednecks. God, how I hate rednecks!" -Me
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 8:13:32 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Greg B> Why do you think that Goliath's line is 'infamous'? Just curious.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Do not despise the day of small beginnings." -Zechariah 4:10
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 8:10:20 pm EST from 70.232.142.230

Todd> That, and it led to Goliath's infamous line, "I've been denied everything, even my revenge."

But, yeah, with the comics deaths can be, and have been, a little darker than the fall to the death. Tasha's suicide immediately comes to mind.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Temptation" is one of my favorite episodes because it features Demona beating up rednecks. God, how I hate rednecks!" -Me
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 7:31:36 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Some time ago (I can't remember exactly when) we were discussing about how often "Gargoyles" killed characters off by having them fall to their deaths (the Captain of the Guard, Hakon, Findlaech, Gillecomgain, Duncan - though with the fiery orb added in, Charles Canmore). While many of those deaths were done that way because of S&P (as in, they couldn't have Gillecomgain run Findlaech through, for example), it recently occurred to me that it made good sense to have the Captain and Hakon die that way.

A crucial point of the beginning of "Awakening" is Goliath being dealt so many heavy blows that he is driven to despair, and asks the Magus to turn him to stone. So it makes good sense to have the Captain and Hakon die by falling rather than at his hands. It increases the despair - not only is his clan dead, but he wasn't even able to take vengeance on the two people most responsible for the massacre. (He says it himself in the immediate aftermath, "I've been denied everything, even my revenge!")
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:53:11 pm EST from 4.245.16.19

Battle Beast - Wow! a Baby named as a result of Gargoyles. I know we've had several weddings as a result of Gargs-but I haven't heard of too many baby namings. Very cool ^_^
Wingless
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:48:35 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

Hmmm, I guess that proves I stopped paying attention. Google is your friend.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:00:41 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

Landon : Yes, Bennett was in the "Gathering of the cast and crew" segment. (Particularly memorable because at one point, he did a three-way dialogue between Brooklyn, Owen & the Magus)
Spen
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:28:49 pm EST from 66.43.205.110

sTiTcH - I don't think there is much on Jeff Bennett out there. I remember looking for a long time back when I was interested in the VO biz a few years ago and he was my favorite voice actor (still is, I suppose). I searched high and low off and on for about a year and this was all I found: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8bdBe2M8Ok I have the original movie file too. It's crappy quality because it was scrapped off an ancient MDTAS Disney website removed years ago. Besides that, Bennett has been pretty incognito in the press unlike frequent interviewees West, Paulsen, and Kenny, who are of similar talent and experience, but have had much more famous headlining roles than Johnny Bravo. I remember seeing him in the background of a Samurai Jack DVD featurette and a couple of mentions by Billy West on his website/forum and mentions in random interviews of other people, but that's about it. I can't remember if he was in the Gathering of the Cast and Crew or not. His demos are online too: http://www.sbvtalentagency.com/vo_talent_detail.php?id=125 Hopefully he'll make an another appearance at this year's Gathering.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 4:54:27 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

Demonskrye> Personally, I don't doubt that kids appreciate cartoons with kids in them, but I seriously doubt that their mindset would be "If this show doesn't star a child character, I'm changing the channel".

Spongebob Squarepants for one is Nickelodeon's top rated cartoon, and features no "regular" kid character. Courage The Cowardly Dog gets a fair amount of reruns despite the fact that the main characters are a dog and an elderly couple.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 4:54:09 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

Battle Beast> Congrats on your new baby cousin! I'm sure you'll waste no time introducing her to "Gargoyles" once she's old enough.

Anonymous> The only reason I didn't include the "Thundercats" intro is that I figure just about everyone has seen it my now. But yes, it's pretty amazing.

Stitch> I did a quick look around the internets and nothings popping yet, but maybe someone else has read or heard or watched an interview with him at some point a recalls where to find it. He's been in so many shows and films that you'd figure someone would have wanted to talk with him at some point.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 3:50:51 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Brook> Let me put it this way, I'm the kind of guy who would spend hours listening to the soundtracks of "The Neverending Story" and "Transformers: The Movie". I readily admit to having awful taste in music; hell, about the only thing I actually did enjoy about Star Trek: Enterprise was the theme tune.
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 3:37:37 pm EST from 86.41.195.135

hey this question is off-subject but im curious as hell..
do any of you know where i could find an interview of some kind with jeff bennett?
thanks
sTiTcH - [udontdzerv2liv at aol dot com]
Stitch
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 3:34:22 pm EST from 205.188.117.134

What was The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Crossover, A Fan Fiction or Something?
Daniel Abraham Raviv. - [dar111191 at gmail dot com]
Daniel Abraham Raviv.
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 3:34:20 pm EST from 24.7.204.215

Gargoyles 80s style - Elisa or Angela probably get kidnapped in almost every episode
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 3:02:27 pm EST from 205.188.117.134

80's Gargs.. hmm .. possibly one of the most annoying things of the 80's toons.. was the moral of the day spot. that's probably just as horrendous as Goliath's narrating of TGC..:p

ugh, and the fact every other character has the same voice *coughs Filmation toons*..

oh and the gargs would be neon-rainbow colors :p..

Bronx would either be a puppy (hatchling) or be like his comedy counterpart..

the massacre probably wouldn't have happened.. the sleep spell might, I dunno..

forget Shakespeare.. probably no Macbeth either..

Deadly force sure as heck wouldn't have happened.. or at least not like it would have happened now..
starlioness
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 2:48:38 pm EST from 24.18.243.70

I just booked up my room for the Gathering, Yay I can't wait
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 2:19:57 pm EST from 205.188.117.134

Robby Barrows> I disagree. The Real Ghostbusters was the best toon of the 80s. At least the early JMS seasons were. There was actually characterization and dialogue that didn't necessarily make one cringe.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Temptation" is one of my favorite episodes because it features Demona beating up rednecks. God, how I hate rednecks!" -Me
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 1:49:42 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

This reminds me of a TMNT/Gargoyles crossover I read...ah the 80s/early 90's...

Everyone remember Transformers G1 and G2? And the movie? Oh, those were so sweet and the best toons of the 80's...
Robby Barrows - [rbgecko at yahoo dot com]
SuperSaiyaMan12
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 1:45:42 pm EST from 68.116.180.70

@ Algernon: I hope you mean The 80s inda music like the Smiths, Sonic Youth and Pixies, and not the kind of music like David Hasselhoff, Boy George and Baltimorra... :|

But yep, tha song is just FANTASTIC!! :D
Brook
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 1:31:29 pm EST from 84.191.246.114

Something happy to note: My Cousin, Melissa, welcomed a baby girl on Saturday. She was unable to find the right name untill I said "Goliath." (the baby was 12 lbs 1Oz!) Anyway, she immidiately said 'Gargoyles!' She decided on Elisa. Kinda cool!

Elisa Patricia is doing fine!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 1:06:48 pm EST from 75.156.190.146

Demonskrye & Brook> Nice stuff lads, I must admit one of my biggest guilty pleasures is cheesy eighties music.
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 1:02:33 pm EST from 86.41.216.188

ALSO, there would be a song Goliath sings about how he is constantly c... how he can't get Elisa...

Kinda like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH4_mZh-bj8

Smash hit, oh yeah!!
Brook
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 12:38:55 pm EST from 84.191.246.114

Man, he 80s sure were GREAT!! :D

And NOTHING beats THIS!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VgSLBDw_X8

NAWT!!
Brook
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 12:32:30 pm EST from 84.191.246.114

Ah, yes, the good old times.

I was alwas rather partial to this -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qd_IsxgAf8

And two more more for the giggles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fb50GMmY5nk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_4Ju6ZqKPU

Is there something like that for Gargoyles?
Anonymous
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 12:11:28 pm EST from 89.246.182.242

Algernon (your "l" got exchanged for an "r" somehow, by the way)> Oh definitely. One of my regrets about "Gargoyles" is that, nice as the intro was, it never had a really amazing intro with original animation. it's one of the nicest clip intros out there, but I still can't help but wonder what might have happened if the animators had been able to create something totally original to introduce the concept of the series.

Here's once of my favorite 80s cartoon intros:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_RdPawsqgo

The theme song is highly 80s and the concept seems to draw heavily from "Fantastic Four," but the drawing and animation are just so well done and so appealing.

And a slightly more recent one, with a bit of a "Gargoyles" connection:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr8KAxTFMyU
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 10:13:34 am EST from 146.115.115.33

Phoenician> Say what you want about 80s toons; they may have been written with all the care and subtlety of an epileptic fit, but they usually had kick-ass opening titles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j2MNcYx0Ag
Argernon
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 9:48:51 am EST from 86.41.201.201

Greg B> Actually, I think it's even more likely that Elisa would be Tom, or Tom's great-great-great-etc-grandson who looks almost exactly like Tonm. My husband and I were watching the extras on the "Real Ghostbusters" DVD set and J. Michael Straczynski is talking about how he was being told that he needed to add some junior Ghostbusters to the show because "market research indicates that kids like shows about kids." I don't think this idea is entirely without merit and I certainly don't believe that it's impossible to make a good show about kids, "Avatar" being one of my favorite shows of the past ten years. But it's a truism that probably holds more sway than it should, even today, which has led to numerous shows having kid characters added in either in the pre-production process or late in the series, regardless of whether it actually makes any sense for the story.

I'll freely admit my fondness for some 80s cartoons is colored by nostalgia. But even if I could put that aside, I wouldn't think it a good thing to set the television animation of the entire decade on fire. Yes, some 80s cartoons were very mediocre and some were really bad. Some 90s cartoons were mediocre and some were really bad. Some cartoons made today are mediocre and I can think of at least one right now that makes me physically ill. But there are also some 80s cartoons that were exceptional for the time and some that I fully enjoy now, even putting aside the nostalgia factor. (The aforementioned "The Real Ghostbusters" being one of them.)
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 9:01:53 am EST from 146.115.115.33

*wakes from the deep sleep all the Star Wars talk put her into* 10th...

=D
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 8:47:36 am EST from 71.206.9.183

And if Gargoyles had been a cartoon in the 1960s, we'd probably see the clan smoking cigarettes after they had kicked the villain's ass:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqdTBDkUEEQ
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Though I've never understood how God could expect his creatures to pick the one true religion by faith - it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe." -Jubal Harshaw ("Stranger In a Strange Land")
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:36:13 am EST from 76.27.174.85

9TH!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Do not despise the day of small beginnings." -Zechariah 4:10
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 6:16:03 am EST from 70.232.142.230

Eighth. Slow night.
Spen
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 5:08:44 am EST from 66.43.205.110

lucky number 7th
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 2:37:51 am EST from 205.188.117.134

Sixth!

Don't forget that an 80's Gargoyles probably wouldn't have had such an epic opening titles; it'd likely have something you could sing along to . . . .
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 1:56:06 am EST from 68.98.115.219

Fourth. =P
lonerider26 - [lonerider26 at gmail dot com]
"The story is told-though who can say if it be true..."~Shari
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 1:28:01 am EST from 76.16.10.90

LOL Greg. Oh, Third.

What would happen if...Hanna Barbera made Gargoyles?
Robby Barrows - [rbgecko at yahoo dot com]
SuperSaiyaMan12
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 1:12:41 am EST from 68.116.180.70

2nd ;)
VoLpE
Killer threads! ~ Edge
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 1:11:46 am EST from 75.74.180.96

Two more:

- Lexington would be such a savant, he could build space ships, time machines, dimensional gateways, and anything.

- Xanatos would wear a mask and you'd never see his face.

- William Shakespeare? Who is that? Some English fart? He doesn't sell toys.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Temptation" is one of my favorite episodes because it features Demona beating up rednecks. God, how I hate rednecks!" -Me
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 12:40:54 am EST from 24.205.39.101

And to kick off the week. A lot of people are nostalgic for 80s cartoons. They call that the best period in TV animation ever. So, what if "Gargoyles" was an 80s cartoon.

- Goliath and his clan would never have evacuated the castle.

- Elisa Maza would have been a man. She'd have probably been Matt Bluestone, actually.

- Xanatos would have been a straight up criminal "mastermind" who's plans never worked. The Pack would have been his incompetent henchmen. Owen wouldn't exist. Demona and Sevarius would be his two more competent, but still unsuccessful henchmen.

- Sevarius as a mad scientist would be an expert in EVERYTHING.

- The motorcycle and helicopter would have been in every episode.

- New gargoyles would appear, as members of Goliath's clan, out of no where.

- Angela would have worn pink.

- The major plot line would have involved Xanatos wanting to gather together the three great talismans so he could rule the world. This would never get resolved.

- Alex Xanatos would never exist.

- Thailog would exist and remain loyal to Xanatos.

- Goliath would have no character flaws, whatsoever.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Temptation" is one of my favorite episodes because it features Demona beating up rednecks. God, how I hate rednecks!" -Me
posted @ Mon, Jan 5, 2009 12:20:03 am EST from 24.205.39.101

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