Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

2198> To be honest, I don't really get why Brooklyn goes out of his way not to learn about his future and the future of the gargoyles he knew. If he didn't already know that time is like a river and that nothing he or anyone else does can divert it from its course. In other fictions, time travelers who want to avoid learning what befell them and the people they care for use the rationale that learning of some event that they may wish to avoid could cause them to make efforts to prevent it from happening when they return to their own time, potentially altering the future in unforeseen and possibly harmful ways. If Brooklyn knows that history is fixed and whatever he did in the past is always going to be the way things were, why would he feel the need to avoid learning about the years prior to 2198, at the very least finding out if and when he gets home? Is everyone Brooklyn ever meets really going to go out of their way not to tell Brooklyn anything he doesn't already know about Goliath, even though the guy is considered a legendary hero to gargoyles everywhere? At a minimum, Brook is goig to go home knowing that Macbeth hasn't killed Demona by 2198. So why does he feel the need to keep himself from learning any other details of his potential future?

"His great sacrifice." It would seem to suggest that Goliath made the ultimate sacrifice for the cause of peace between humans and gargoyles. But it's still very vague. You could also say that his "great sacrifice" was continuing to protect and work for harmony between the two species in the face of overwhelming odds only to die before seeing his dream brought to fulfillment. If I had to come down on one side or the other, I would say that Goliath probably does give his life for the cause in a very dramatic way that gives the GMPA the final push it needs to be passed. But in the strictest sense, the exact wording doesn't make it 100% clear that Goliath dies of unnatural causes.

Incidentally, does anyone know why the word "minority" is in "Gargoyle Minority Protection Act"? Wouldn't it be easier to just call it the "Gargoyle Protection Act"? My best guess is that this echoes wording used in other United Nations legislation, but does anyone have confirmation of that?
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 4:37:48 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Brook> Keep in mind that the Manhattan Clan will raise its hatchlings traditionally. Meaning children generally won't be aware of their parentage, nor would they or the parents particularly care. This will become more apparent by 2198, as the Clan will have grown considerably by that time. Greg Weisman has indicated that Samson hatched in a rookery (2158) that had many eggs and his exact ancestry is unknown. I wouldn't be surprised if Brooklyn had descendants among the Manhattan Clan of 2198, probably descendants of Nashville and Tachi (and perhaps a third egg). But whether he did or not, would he care? He was raised to not even look for a biological parent-child relationship, why or how would he even look for grandchildren or great-grandchildren. And why would he look at all? Brooklyn will not even know he EVER found a mate nor would he know if he EVER returned home. Yet.

If we see descendants of Brooklyn in 2198, I don't think Brooklyn or Greg Weisman would make a big deal about it.

Supermorff> In the document, where Greg is describing the back-story for the series he writes: "...Despite this, Goliath, the leader of the gargoyles, maintained hope that one day humans and gargoyles would live in peace. And eventually, that day came. Shortly after Goliath's death - and due in no small measure to his great sacrifice - the 'Gargoyle Minority Protection Act' was adopted by the United Nations."
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 2:08:45 pm EST from 70.230.145.71

*Comes running in out out of breath* OH MY GOD I just seen the teaser trailer for Transformers Revenge Of the Fallen IT LOOKS WICKED I can't wait till the full trailer and the film of cause *Runs out the room to go watch it again*
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 1:36:08 pm EST from 205.188.117.134

Matt> That's cool. I was really wondering what the wording of it was. Because it seems to me that, for that kind of thing, the wording could make a pretty big difference in the actual meaning of it. But maybe I'm wrong.
Supermorff
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 11:57:33 am EST from 86.131.21.39

Ah.
(Yeah, I meant his children/grandchildren popping up by 2198)

This is, however, interresting, because we have so little knowledge of anything of him or his family post-Timedancer-return (except for potential leadership-problems with Goliaths decisions)
Brook
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 11:51:22 am EST from 84.191.245.98

Brook> Nope. Nothing about Brooklyn's family. For one thing, the Brooklyn of 2198 only has Fu-Dog with him, not Katana or the hatchlings. Furthermore, Brooklyn takes special effort not to learn too much about his own fate in the past, which probably means that in Gargoyles: 2198 we will discover little about what happened to Brooklyn and family after he returned home.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 11:21:24 am EST from 70.230.145.71

@ Matt: Actually, did the paper say anything about the future of Brooklyns family?

Just being curious...
Brook
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 10:02:37 am EST from 84.191.245.98

@ Litwolf: I would assume that this would only "turn" her, if the cause of Goliaths death is so BIG a symbol to not go unnoticed, even by Demona.
As stated before, I doubt it is an act of saving all of humanity. Whilst this is the natural and romanticized cause of such actions, I would find it way more tragic if it would be for a smaller cause, then again leading to a greater good by inspiring the GMPA.

I don't know about Angelas death... sure, Demona would feel remorse when her daughter dies, but also would have the satisfaction that at least she led a long and healthy and happy life, with finally being accepted by humanity. I guess she would feel remorse that she wasn't closer to her, but I doubt it would turn her mind.
(I WONDER how Demona reacts to the GMPA, just on a side note)

However, your comment made me think of the fact that Greg has hinted at 2 Gargoyle-Human relationships. If Demona ever were to fall in love with a human, not onlx would it be another brilliant twist, but also a clever comment on homosexuality, Demona not being ready to accept what she feels.
Then again, if both Big G and Demona would fall for humans... well... a bit unlikely...
Brook
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 10:01:45 am EST from 84.191.245.98

Supermorff> Yeah, the information about Goliath's sacrifice was revealed in the expanded 2198 document that Phil and I won. A lot of other fun tidbits are in the document, though I think most or all have been mentioned in here over the years.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 9:39:18 am EST from 70.230.145.71

Brook > Goliath's death 'turning' Demona? Interesting thought. Though, personally, I think it will be Angela's death that will 'turn' her, perhaps realizing that she should have spent less time trying to destroy humanity and more time being with her daughter. But I think this could only happen if Angela were to die of natural causes. If she's killed by a Quarryman or some other hateful human, Demona wouldnt be 'turned' at all; just way more angry.

But, we have a long span of time between now and when the Space-Spawn attack (whem Demona is thought to be good because she helps with Samson's rebellion) and we know she is to have two great loves in her life. So maybe one of her great loves will be the one to 'turn' Demona. I am so curious as to who her great loves are... or even more importantly, what her great loves are: human, gargoyle, fay, or something else entirely? ^_^
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 9:29:32 am EST from 209.243.38.9

Guys, could we PLEASE agree to not act like 13 yearolds again...
Just saying, before this all starts out like last month...

@ spideyfan: I'm thrilled to see how Greg W handles Carnage. Having only read MAXIMUM CARNAGE so far, I can see why people dislike the guy, but also made out a bit of potential. I still think that Venom is "better" though, in terms of a villain. I'm quite surprised they tones down Venom just to make a worse symbiote-villain.

@ Litwolf: That is a scenario I could imagine. I just wanted to ask if people could see Demona actually turning by Goliaths death. But right now, I guess her emotions would rather be that of anger (as stated by you) or immense regret, paired by an even bigger grudge against Goliaths murderer. (Only when you've completely lost someone, you realise what you've lost etcetc)

Also, I guess she might blame Elisa for his death. In Ds eyes, she must be the one who "made" Big G all human-friendly.
(Indeed, it would be interresting to see how events would have played out if Elisa would NOT have existed)
Brook
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 7:25:14 am EST from 84.191.218.228

I've seen the episode, dude. You don't need to point it out to me.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Genetic engineering helps us correct God's horrible mistakes, like German people." - Mr. Garrison
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 1:48:27 am EST from 24.205.39.101

I'm half asleep so I should have typed "must have been". <Greg.B Just having fun and its the second check wikipedia by googleing doctor octopus. All right I'm going to bed.
spideyforever
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 1:47:06 am EST from 75.118.70.61

Good news It's brief so all you haters just blink and you won't see him. On another note this must what started the rumor that Carnage would be in the show.
spideyforever
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 1:42:19 am EST from 75.118.70.61

Spideyforever> Actually, it's the third season, and plenty of us already know about the cameo.

So, he appeared. No skin off my back.

Stop trolling.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Genetic engineering helps us correct God's horrible mistakes, like German people." - Mr. Garrison
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 1:41:17 am EST from 24.205.39.101

Got some good news for me bad news for you guys. The 1st episode of season 2 will have an appearance by Cletus Kasady(just him though). If you look up Doc Ock and scroll down to television appearances it says it under Spectacular Spider-Man. The symbiote is most likely to appear in Season 3. Tough beans Carnage haters.
spideyforever
posted @ Sun, Feb 1, 2009 1:28:52 am EST from 75.118.70.61

Demona at Goliath's Wind Ceremony > I think if Goliath were to die right now, at this point in the comics, Demona would probably come to the ceremony and start off saying how she remembered Goliath to be a strong leader back in the times of Wyvern Castle. Then she would say he became corrupted by the humans and would use that as a 'point' to attempt to sway the rest of the Clan to join her cause.

At least, thats the face she would give to the public. In truth and in private, I think she would dwell a lot on the past, remembering when she and Goliath had been warriors side-by-side, mates, and leader and SiC. She would probably consider the night of the massacre to be his true death, in her eyes, since thats when she truly seems to have lost him.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Sat, Jan 31, 2009 11:06:25 pm EST from 192.146.226.148

@ Demonskrye: "Under certain circumstances, Demona might find it in herself to hurt or even kill Goliath, but I don't think she'd be doing a happy dance over his death. Thailog, sure. Thailog's a bastard. (Though he might be saddened by the loss of his favorite pin cushion.) But even as much as things have changed between them, Goliath was once the gargoyle Demona loved. I think there's a lot of evidence that a part of her does want Goliath at her side again; she's just not willing to compromise her principles to get him back. Her relationship with Thailog is a big indicator of this. She thought she had found a Goliath who shared her world view. A large part of the reason Demona hates Goliath as much as she does is because he did love her, but he's horrified by what she's become and doesn't hesitate to point out truths that Demona can't accept: that the centuries have made her merciless and and vicious, that many of her actions make life for all gargoyles worse rather than better, and that she was largely responsible for the Wyvern Massacre. It hurts her because on some level she knows it's true, but also because it's coming from someone she loved."

I want to hug you. :)

THANK YOU so much. I agree 100%!!! Couldn't have put it better myself, and therefore just nod and agree. :)
(Apart from Thailog... I think he would just go "Ah, well... so, who's next? Xanatos? Awrite...")
Brook
posted @ Sat, Jan 31, 2009 9:56:50 pm EST from 84.191.254.238

The more guests at the con, the bigger the fan attendance will be. The bigger the fan attendance, the more Disney will take notice, the more exposure "Gargoyles" gets, and the better the con does. All of that leads to the ability to continue doing more cons and hopefully GROWING THE FANDOM.

There is no secret conspiracy to morph The Gathering of the Gargoyles into a "Spider-Man" con. In 2006, we brought out nearly the entire voice cast and production crew of "W.I.T.C.H." and here we are in 2009, still a "Gargoyles" con. I wish we didn't get all this "worry" and "concern" every time the con reaches out to other fandoms. Bringing in more people is a GOOD THING.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sat, Jan 31, 2009 7:41:00 pm EST from 66.61.27.56

DEMONSKRYE - I've wondered about both as well. On the other hand, the only person who ever uses that expression in "Gargoyles" is Iago/Coldsteel, so it might refer to something far more specific to him.
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Sat, Jan 31, 2009 7:40:18 pm EST from 4.244.212.190

Rebel> I could be wrong about this, but I think part of the reason for the con featuring so many guests related to Spectacular Spider-Man this year is because this year's Gathering is in L.A., making it very easy for a lot of hard working cast and crew members from the show to attend. There are other reasons, of course, such as SS-M being a current show and the large number of actors who had roles on both shows. But if the next Gathering isn't so California convenient, you may not see as many people from SS-M being willing to make the trek for a convention that's really about another show.

I think the worst case scenario would more likely be that SS-M split off into its own con that, for the time being, was bigger than the Gathering. But even if the show is doing very well, I don't really see that happening, since fans of the show are probably more likely to go to local or larger cons that feature cast and crew from SS-M along with a ton of other things they may be interested in rather than showing up for a con focused only on the one show. For the time being, I think it's better to concentrate on the potential good results of Spider-fans coming to the con to see the people who work on SS-M and deciding to give Gargoyles a try as well.

As for Demona at a Wind Ceremony for Goliath, I imagine that her words would be - much like her - complicated. I wouldn't want to see her suddenly going soft and apologizing for her actions over the past 1000-plus years, but I also don't want her using the opportunity solely as a platform to express her own beliefs. I could see her expressing some degree of admiration for his lifelong struggle to forge a peace between humans and gargoyles and maybe even admitting that she herself once believed that he could make it happened. But it wouldn't stop her from saying that this dream is impossible to achieve and that Goliath's efforts were ultimately futile. If she were to express any regrets, I think it would be that she failed to open his eyes to the "truth" - that humans will never accept gargoyles as their equals - before it was too late for him. If the GMPA has passed by the time of the Wind Ceremony for Goliath has passed, I think she might point out that swaying the minds of a few powerful humans one time cannot change the opinions of all humanity or truly make the world and safer for their kind. Depending on who else is present and how receptive an audience she thinks she may have, she might use the occasion to try to win allies, in part by pointing out that the gargoyle who most strongly believed in gargoyles and humans living side by side has been killed for his beliefs (whether that's true or not.)

Under certain circumstances, Demona might find it in herself to hurt or even kill Goliath, but I don't think she'd be doing a happy dance over his death. Thailog, sure. Thailog's a bastard. (Though he might be saddened by the loss of his favorite pin cushion.) But even as much as things have changed between them, Goliath was once the gargoyle Demona loved. I think there's a lot of evidence that a part of her does want Goliath at her side again; she's just not willing to compromise her principles to get him back. Her relationship with Thailog is a big indicator of this. She thought she had found a Goliath who shared her world view. A large part of the reason Demona hates Goliath as much as she does is because he did love her, but he's horrified by what she's become and doesn't hesitate to point out truths that Demona can't accept: that the centuries have made her merciless and and vicious, that many of her actions make life for all gargoyles worse rather than better, and that she was largely responsible for the Wyvern Massacre. It hurts her because on some level she knows it's true, but also because it's coming from someone she loved.

Todd> One of my personal theories is that the dragon of "By the Dragon!" is Gargouille and that gargoyle legend somehow connects him with the origin or the gargoyle species. (My other theory is that it's the dragon that gave Castle Wyvern and Wyvern Hill their names.)
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Sat, Jan 31, 2009 7:23:11 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

REBEL - Good question - and one that mildly concerned me when I read it. The danger seems all the more plausible not only because "The Spectacular Spider-Man" is still on the air, with new episodes coming out soon, but also because Spider-Man's much better known than the gargoyles are (and has been around longer). On the other hand, the title "Gathering" does come from "Gargoyles". So I suppose only the future can answer that question.

Has anyone here been watching "Huntik" on Saturday mornings? So far, I've been rather enjoying it - it's drawn on a few real myths and legends already, such as the Golem of Prague (who should be familiar to "Gargoyles" fans) and Gargouille (a legendary dragon that lived near Rouen, and whose name was a supposed origin for the word "gargoyle" - Gargouille never made it into "Gargoyles", but with a name and background like that, I'm sure that Greg Weisman would have worked him in somewhere). And this morning's episode featured two sites that should be familiar to "Gargoyles" fans: Notre Dame Cathedral, and the Parisian catacombs (where the young Canmores confronted Demona after their father's death).
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:40:55 pm EST from 4.244.212.190

Sorry for the double.

Incidentally, what do you guys think Demona would say if she was at a Wind Ceremony for Goliath?
Rebel
posted @ Sat, Jan 31, 2009 3:42:10 pm EST from 199.80.70.70

Jesus. You guys sure are TALKATIVE.

Anyway, I'm pleased about the update from Greg. I'm confident now that we will get those trades one way or another, though who knows when?

Also, I have a question in regards to the Gathering. As most of you know, I've never attended a Gathering before, but I want to someday (perhaps this year). Anyway, I read in Greg's update that this year's Gathering is going to focus on both Spectacular Spider-Man and Gargoyles. This is cool, but it's got me a little worried. Is it going to be like that again next year? If having a Gathering for both Gargoyles and Spectacular Spider-man becomes a regular thing, I'm worried that in a few years Spectacular Spider-man will start taking precedence over Gargoyles and there will be lots of people there who are fans of Spectacular Spider-man, but not of Gargoyles. Basically, I'm worried that eventually Gargoyles might end up taking a backseat to Spectacular Spider-man at the Gathering. I hope this doesn't happen. Can somebody allay these concerns? I think it's great that The Gathering can feature Greg's other projects besides Gargoyles, but I just hope it never loses its original focus.

I STRONGLY suspect that SSM will get a 3rd, and maybe even more, seasons after the second season. While I truly hope this happens, it also increases the likelihood that more and more people in the future will want to attend a convention about it.

Anyway, so is this a realistic worry or am I just being paranoid?
Rebel
posted @ Sat, Jan 31, 2009 3:07:13 pm EST from 199.80.70.70

Oops, mental blip. Obviously the first thing I meant to say was "Thanks, Todd!"
Supermorff
posted @ Sat, Jan 31, 2009 8:15:38 am EST from 86.131.13.78

I'm pretty sure it was Matt and Phil, yeah.
Supermorff
posted @ Sat, Jan 31, 2009 8:11:10 am EST from 86.131.13.78

Todd> I think Matt won one of them, try asking him.
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Sat, Jan 31, 2009 8:02:31 am EST from 213.94.147.112

SUPERMORFF - Goliath's sacrifice was mentioned in the "Gargoyles 2198" proposal, which Greg Weisman gave to the person who won the "Gargoyles 2198" contest in "Ask Greg" (the one that scared him off doing any similar "fill-in-the-blanks" for the other spin-off proposals). Unfortunately, I can't remember now who won it.
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Sat, Jan 31, 2009 7:18:59 am EST from 4.244.208.129

I've just discovered a wiki about the history of various fandoms, and Gargoyles has a page: http://www.fanhistory.com/wiki/Disney%27s_Gargoyles

However, it's really bare, and doesn't have information on even the huge events, like setting up AskGreg or the first Gathering or... well, anything. It would be great opportunity to spread the word if somebody more knowledgeable than I (who has probably been in the fandom for longer) could add something - ANYTHING - to this page.

(Regarding my question about Goliath sacrificing himself, does nobody know where the info came from, or did the question just get lost by being tacked onto the end of my Rhapsody review?)
Supermorff
posted @ Sat, Jan 31, 2009 4:16:23 am EST from 86.131.13.78

Ah, OK, I can see what you mean... I find him chilling in the Journey alone... "DREAM OF ME, GOLIATH!".. *shudder*

Thailog has become a favourite of me, except for issue #6... that Toga was just a bit too much... apart from that, I really really like the guy... "If I wanted to kill him, I would have aimed for the heart!" Classic!
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:54:01 pm EST from 84.191.242.123

Brook> I like Castaway, I think he has the potential for epic villainy. But we've barely been introduced to the character and so far he hasn't done anything to really wow me the way Xanatos did in "Thrill of The Hunt", or Demona in "City of Stone" or Thailog in... well anything Thailog's in actually. Ask me again after the next Quarrymen-centric story.
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:27:49 pm EST from 86.41.193.46

@ Algernon: I find that interresting, the Dr. Doom remark, because I have vast problems to really compare Demona with any other villain than The Joker and, uh, Darth Vader.

Would you really consider Castaway a B-List villain? Currently, I think he is my favourite ATM, although Thailog was just BRILLIANT the last time round we saw him.
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:08:19 pm EST from 84.191.242.123

Brook> Gargoyles has a lot of themes, including guilt and revenge. Heck, I'd say Demona's entire character is all about guilt and revenge.

Goliath is going to die sooner or later, we know that for a fact. From a thematic stand point if anyone is going to pull the trigger on the Big G then it should be Demona. She is to the Manhattan clan what Dr. Doom is to the Fantastic Four.

Frankly it wouldn't have the same dramatic punch if Goliath was killed by a relative b-list villain like Castaway or Coyote. The only other Garg villain with that kind of personal connection to Goliath is Thailog.

P.S. And Demona is a racist by any reasonable definition of the term.
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:53:03 pm EST from 86.41.193.46

*** "RHAPSODY" SPOILERS***

I've read "Rhapsody" before and love it. Too tired for a proper review but a few disjointed thoughts.

I love the great iconic images here. Demona killing Goliath with a Quarryman hammer. Xanatos's fate, a shell of a life for someone who sought eternal life as an end in itself. Demona alone again.

Demona comments about humanity's perversion of religion, but uses the image of the gargoyle race as an instrument of terror and fear; adopts the weapon of one of her greatest foes, and then complains that Angela brooked gargoyle tradition by not letting her speak at the wind ceremony. What a nerve. And creepily, we leave Castaway being blessed so the great tradition of using the good to pursue evil agendas continues. If the saying "write what you know" is to be believed, Greg obviously knows all about perversion. ;)

It's a great Demona story, and I think a very credible prediction as to how her character may wind up, but I think "Rhapsody" also deserves credit for being a truly great Angela story. With Demona there are obvious pitfalls but Angela is much more subtle and easy to whitewash. I think here she's got an interesting and nuanced role. She argues for peace while Demona agitates for war; while Demona plots to 'protect' her daughter, Angela is ordering the gargoyles to protect even and especially the Quarrymen. And it makes so much sense emotionally to me that the endgame of her relationship with Demona isn't hatred but... resignation. Moving on, putting Demona behind her, leaving her alone. It's a much more final, and fitting, ending. Gives me chills.

Funny Demona tells Goliath about the Atlantean crystal. If she could just learn to shut up, she'd probably have had another shot.

*** END SPOILERS ***
Ed
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:48:11 pm EST from 213.187.38.226

@ Harvester: That was just an example that would NEVER happen in the Gargverse, to illustrate Demonas actions.
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:18:34 pm EST from 84.191.191.121

Greg B: I'm starting to wonder if Brook even understands Goliath, either.

Brook: Are you just using Goliath admitting to Demona that he was in the wrong and apologizing to her as an example to prove a point about Demona? Because that would never happen. Goliath's not the one at fault. It's Demona. He told her point blank in "Awakening Part Five" that the massacre would never have happened if she hadn't conspired with the captain, and he was right.

And as far as Goliath never lifting a finger to help Thailog is concerned, part of me wonders if Goliath doesn't feel partially responsible for Thailog's current state. His first reaction when he saw Thailog was to call him an abomination and try and beat the shit out of him. Granted, I don't know what his thoughts are after the stabbing. But even after Demona tried to kill him several times, it still took Goliath a while to really accept the fact that their love was over.

Yes, Goliath has his dark side, but in the end, he also has a strength of character that Demona does not have. Hell, he never particularly liked the princess (at least in the tenth century), and he still chose to rescue her over his own personal satisfaction. Put Demona on that clifftop instead, and she'd probably have let the princess fall to her death while she tore Hakon and the Captain to shreds. Because as Revel stated earlier, Demona is selfish.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I'll prove I'm the goodguy, even if I have to smash this entire city and beat you to a mushy pulp!" -Coop ("Megas XLR")
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:15:26 pm EST from 71.62.136.51

I would rather like to discuss one of the three questionsI have asked: About each ones personal take on the theme of reflections (to which Algermnon, if I spell it right, answered), the questions of which alterations would be OK to you in a possible adaptation to film of GARGOYLES S1 and which is your fav. 80s originated Batman villain.

Mine is Black Mask. :)
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:31:31 pm EST from 84.191.195.11

I agree, but I'll just answer what other people ask or elaborate where they misunderstand. :)
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:16:53 pm EST from 84.191.195.11

You have said 'Im sure'. See?

"I'm sure Goliath dies before turning 45 (human years).
Yes. I'm still sure before he turns 90/45. It is nothing that is a fact, I know - I'm just kinda sure, on the inside... It is like how I say that I'm sure that Riddler turns up for Batman 3 or that Jack will die in the ending of LOST - I'm just sure it will happen." > Brook

Its one thing to have a hunch or a perdiction; its quite another to sound as confident as if you are reading over the creator's shoulder as they work.

Im sorry, Im not trying to pick a fight with you or anything. I was just showing you that you did say 'Im sure' so you would not be further confused. But Im gonna let it go now, having just seen Greg B's comment. Youve got your opinions and Ive got mine and everyone else has their own and we're just going in circles now.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:00:59 pm EST from 209.243.38.9

Brook>

http://3alleypub.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

That is all.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Genetic engineering helps us correct God's horrible mistakes, like German people." - Mr. Garrison
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 4:58:22 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

@ Antiyonder: What makes her so darn interresting. :)
I would never really go and voice something like "Demona is racist.", though this might certainly be an interresting dicussion. Anyways, exactly this pov, this "I am right, all others are wrong.", acompanied with her being responsible for a lot of what happenned to her HERSELF and being human in daylight makes a character so diverse and interresting.

@ Litwolf: "1 - Never say 'Im sure' about a fictional story unless you have proof from the creator of what will happen. Youre voicing your hopes for Gargoyles (Goliath dying young and Brooklyn never reaching 'elder' age) as facts because you are saying 'Im sure'."

I never said that, and don't know how people could misunderstand that - I just said that I couldn't picture them as old persons in my head, and further have problems with fanfictions were there is a jump of over 30 or so years, because, as adressed by others, the changes that took place during that timespan altered the characters so much, that any attempt to characterise them at an old age can only relate to either speculation or their former self. *takes deep breath*

"In all honesty, it makes you sound arrogant and like a know-it-all. Say "I think', say 'I hope'; never ever say 'Im sure' unless you have evidence to back it up, not just a fan's dreams."

Ah, OK. Just wanted to say "sure", even though i do not know the masterplan, because I really, really, REALLY, REALLY cannot see Demona killing Goliath, just as I cannot see the Joker killing Batman or vice versa, both due to reasons of timeline (GMPA being passed as a consequnce, even if not a direct one, of Goliaths death) and of overall themes of the show (protection and reflections rather than guilt and revenge). Of all the mayor villains, Demona is the only one to who I wouldn#t attribut that she has would kill Goliath.

Let me take this further: List of % of villains whose actions might lead to Goliaths death from my pov:

Castaway 50%
Thailog 30%
Coyote 15%
Demona 5%

Oh, and I did say there were good parts in the fanfic, and overall it was OK and well researched. Still, a lot of it made sense to me from 1 1996 perspective, but not from a 2056 perspective or fro a look at how Greg is handling the characters and themes throughout the progression of the show/storyline.

That and the re-curring saids.
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 4:48:38 pm EST from 84.191.199.143

Algernon> Exactly. As they say "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 4:43:52 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

Brook> "Demona, even if she is false, believes in teh greater good of her kin."

Or as Malcolm reynolds might say: "Nothing worse than a monster who thinks he's right with God."
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 4:14:10 pm EST from 86.41.216.28

Brook >

Because I had a portion of time on my hands, I decided to read back through the entire week's comments (because I had just skimmed them before). I want to say a few things to you:

1 - Never say 'Im sure' about a fictional story unless you have proof from the creator of what will happen. Youre voicing your hopes for Gargoyles (Goliath dying young and Brooklyn never reaching 'elder' age) as facts because you are saying 'Im sure'. In all honesty, it makes you sound arrogant and like a know-it-all. Say "I think', say 'I hope'; never ever say 'Im sure' unless you have evidence to back it up, not just a fan's dreams.

2 - You've said youre not a fan of fanfiction and you don't seem to like playing 'What If' games. If that is the case, rather than reading fanfiction and telling the author that you didn't like their story because you personally cant see it happen, just don't read it. Its like when people get into shipping wars (relationships in fictonal worlds). There are a lot of pairings I don't agree with because I cant see that ever actually happening. But I don't read another ship's stories and say I dont like it because I disagree with you. I just avoid reading it. Perhaps you should do the same.

3 - Sarcasm does not translate into text at all unless you use a sarcasm tag. Trust me, Ive had this happen to me many times where someone misunderstood what I said and got mad because they didn't realize I was being sarcastic. I have since then made sure I don't make sarcastic comments on the Net because people cant hear my tone of voice or see my facial expression and know Im being sarcastic.

Just some friendly advice for you =3
Litwolf (at the library)
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 4:01:20 pm EST from 209.243.34.245

Rhapsody>

SPOILERS

I quite like this. Like Brook, I don't have much time for other people's fanfiction where it conflicts with my own theories about what's to come, but this occupied a part of Gargoyles that I hadn't given much thought to so I could easily accept it. I think the slight lack of description was probably a good thing, allowing the readers to imagine the (currently) CIT characters or older-versions of canon characters. The only real description I can remember (and I read it a couple of days ago now, so I'm bound to forget something), was pointing out how different characters looked at this point in time than they had in 1996 (e.g. Fox has grey hair and Tony is bald).

The treatment of the main characters, especially Demona, is very good. And the irony of Demona resorting to using a Quarryman hammer is just superb, as others have said already.

The story is well-written too. The "he said/she said" thing didn't bother me - I didn't even notice. There were a couple of things that got my attention: there's a run-on sentence near the beginning (when Elisa says "Don't lose hope, I never have.") and some of Fiona's phrasing I had to re-read before I understood what she meant. Other than that, it was all very clear (and that's usually my biggest beef with fanfic).

A couple of other little things: I never would have thought of making Fiona an Illuminatus, but it works so well. Also, I had a bit of a chuckle when I saw the names Rachins and Blum. I assume these two were picked because they voice Norman Osborn and the Green Goblin respectively on TSS-M?

END SPOILERS

GregX> "Here, here is what we know. ... Goliath sacrifices his life, and shortly after, due to this sacrifice, the GMPA passes."

I hear this theory quite a lot in the fandom, but I'm not sure where GregW revealed it. Does anyone know? At the back of my head I have a memory of GregW saying something like "Goliath gave his life to the cause of humans and gargoyles living in peace", but right now I can't even find where he said that (I thought it was in the 2198 document, but it isn't). In any case, when I first read that I assumed it meant "Goliath devoted his life to the cause", rather than "Goliath lost his life for the cause". I understand it could mean both, but since everyone seems to think it means the latter, I wonder if Greg clarified this issue somewhere, perhaps at a Gathering?
Supermorff
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 3:37:21 pm EST from 86.131.13.78

@ Antiyonder: That was not my point. Yes, she does that. I still think that she is not an all black person. She might be all black when it comes to humans, but even there she has shown some scale of gray...

Thailog has got charcater, yes, but he does all these things because he believes only in HIS greater good. Demona, even if she is false, believes in teh greater good of her kin - what makes her character even more interresting and varried, because her kin (take for example the Manhatten clan) does SO not agree with her.

But she's not The Joker, who also seemed to have had a sucky life, yet wreaks havoc and carnage just for the sake of it.

I'm not saying she is better or anything, just different.

Thailog would kill Goliath if he would want to. He has no value to him whatsoever.
Demona would consider it, and probably come to the notion that he is a possibly ally. Her handling of Xanatos throughout the first Season proves that for me.
I mean, think of it, she could have a clan, a family etc. If she would kill Goliath, Angela would not be that amused.

What Demona is looking for is a world where she is respected, loved and looked up to as a hero, and not down to like a monster or a manic.
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 3:20:52 pm EST from 84.191.246.196

Brook> I think Thailog's got plenty of soul and character, and while he maybe more cunning a devious them Demona but when it comes to raining down shear carnage and misery upon their fellow sentient beings, he's a rank ameture by comparison.

Look at City of Stone for example, we see her smashing stone humans to dust while giggling with glee. She's essentially murdering innocent people with giddy abandon. I've yet to see Thailog sink to that depth.

Sure Demona's had a long suck life but so has MacBeth, you don't see him plotting global genocide.
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 2:53:40 pm EST from 86.41.216.28

Gah, I want an edit button... Thing is: I don't want to excuse her crimes, I just wanted to show why my view of her is a much more varried character than what Greg B sees in her.
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 2:39:27 pm EST from 84.191.196.83

@ Antiyonder: Sure she does. My point was just that I wanted to make clear that to me, Demona is way more than just the arch-nemesis of Goliath. She is neither black, white or gray - she is a very collourful character. She is right now half Gargoyle half human. She would like to kill all in her way, yet also be a leader and do the right thing. She wants to be amother for her child, yet hates the father of said child for his ignorance and naivity (which, ironically enough, she posesses so much of: Humans = bad and amoral, must kill them before they kill more of my kind).
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 2:36:45 pm EST from 84.191.196.83

True, but he doesn't really care if Goliath is his ally or his foe. I find him more mephistophelic than Demona.

(probably mephistophelic is the wrong word here, for Demona tried to conquer many a soul for her develish plans - then again, as stated before, I would rank Thailog on a much more evil scale than Demona. In her, I can find a soul and character - in Thailog I just can't, he's just one evil sucker.)
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 2:31:18 pm EST from 84.191.196.83

Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to include something:

Brook> She is a villain, but not your everyday "born to be bad" villain. She's got a lot of depth and character, and things she cares about. One day, she will understand her mistake... Oh well, in another 100 years...

Sure she is sympathetic and has the potential to do good, but that doesn't mean her actions should be excused. If she is to find redemption infact, it will be due to her taking responsibility for her crimes rather than making excuses for them (Maybe saying something along the lines of "What have I done?").
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 2:28:35 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

Brook> Thing is that Thailog didn't fight Goliath for the sake of it. He wanted Goliath to join him in Double Jeopardy only to be rejected as an abomination.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 2:22:40 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

@ Incicivis: "Demona have a tragic background, but her actions account for something, and so does the fact that a lot of her tragedies were self-made. There's a time when even the saddest story in the world can't soften your view towards a person because the acts they've committed are so horrible."

Sure - still, I would never say Demona is the 100% evilest person ever. That might either apply to Alex from Clockwork Orange or the Joker.
She is a villain, but not your everyday "born to be bad" villain. She's got a lot of depth and character, and things she cares about. One day, she will understand her mistake... Oh well, in another 100 years...
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:40:33 pm EST from 84.191.245.83

@ Litwolf: It was a rather sarcastic remark. Considering that she tries to do this for a 1000 years... Fail!!

"She chose to work with the Captain and Hakon to betray the castle."

The humans who mostly feard and or hated her. (No wonder, considering how she approached them)

"She chose to leave and save her own skin rather than warning any of the others."

If she wouldn't have had, she might have been dead as well. I doubt the clan would have fled immediately. I find it amoral, but I can understand it.

"Demona did it all to herself, and if you missed that, than I just don't know what to tell you."

Dear Greg,
PLEASE, read my posts.
Just like before, when you suddenly switched "I'm sure" with "I know", I fear that you do not read them carefully.
I did not say that she wasn't the one who did most of it to herself (or big chunks of it). I am fully aware she did. But still, many, many things we know of would not have occurred if she could have trusted the humas whom she allied herself with.
Of COURSE she made many, many mistakes. The one with Macbeth you mentioned was probably the biggest one post Wyvern. But still, the Demona we get to know on 1995 is not that close to that person at all. There are another 800 or so years inbetween, and in that time span, the horrors and crimes she saw humans commit would have not been all her fault.

I see Demona as a very torn character. I mean, she has lost it all, then again is still looking for a home. She cloned the Manhattan clan to have her own clan (now I got it right... checks.. oh, yes). She tried to put Goliath under a spell so he was with her. She allied herself with Xanatos to get her clan, her family, back.

She IS a villain non the less. But she is not a big bad baddy and it is all her fault. Part of it is, and the denial of this is a very, VERY important part of her.
Of course she articipated in it, if she saw something comming her way by that, but she (probably, by what we know now) did not start these things.

"Yes, and if that poor little Austrian weren't beaten by his step-father and was accepted into art school, maybe he wouldn't have been a genocidal sadist. Clearly it's not his fault."

Actually, that might be the case. Probably he might have stuck with painting postcards and babbling shit at some pub rather than ovethrowing the government.

Anyways, you can't compare that. Demona is driven by a 1000 years! Mr. H was not. In her normal lifespan lifetime, she was a bitter and lonesome woman, but far from the genocidal maniac she is now. And I doubt she would have killed ALL humans just after Wyvern massacre or the Macbeth debacle. She hated them, but she wasn't the Demona we used to know. And babbling about "one time they will pay." and actually programming a freaking virus and doing all that praying gargoyle junk to kill ALL HUMANS and being INCHES away from doing so is very, very different.

"<<If Golaith would approach her, and tell her he was wrong and would now join her, Demona might be baffled, but also very, very, VERY happy.>>

......................... WHAT?!

She would then plot to kill him, and lead the clan in her war on humanity.

She is not going to change with a hug."

REALLY?

Just take a look at Awakening. She DOES change with a hug. "OH, you're not with me? OK, then I'll kill you!"

I truly believe this! IF Goliath would EVER turn her way, and CONFRONT her, and tell her so, Demona would be DAMN glad... and humanity would have one huge problem. I wouldn't trust those damn incompetent hunters at saving us.
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 1:38:04 pm EST from 84.191.245.83

Demona have a tragic background, but her actions account for something, and so does the fact that a lot of her tragedies were self-made. There's a time when even the saddest story in the world can't soften your view towards a person because the acts they've committed are so horrible.

RHAPSODY SPOILERS

Further thoughts:

As to the problem with just using "said", it can be easy and difficult to get around. Easy, because you can rearrange the sentences or use colons or something, but it gets hard when you have to figure out how to balance it. And avoid adverbs for speech whenever you can.

I would have disagreed with using hair colours to describe characters, such as calling Demona "the redhead" (all one word). Pro writing doesn't normally do this, and it's jarring in fanfic. Using names and pronouns mostly ought to do, though you can sneak designations by species in there.

And Greg, I have to ask: were the living stone gargoyles inspired by Harlan Ellison's story "Bleeding Stones" which featured the same thing? :)

RHAPSODY SPOILERS END
Incisivis
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:48:41 pm EST from 142.13.23.62

"No, seriously, I think she should aim for a lot less ambigious projects than erase the ENTIRE human race." Brook

You make it sound like its as easy for her as picking up a new hobby. She HATES humans, all of them, for what they have done to her personally and all of the gargoyles over generations. She wants humans to be destroyed so that gargoyles can live in a world without fear and be on top. What reason does she have to abandoning that goal?
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:48:18 pm EST from 209.243.38.9

Brook> <<Thailog is Satan!!>>

Not yet, he's not.

<<Demona might have killed a lot more people, but she has become what she is now due to the things that happenned to her, not the actions she has chosen.>>

You cannot be serious. She chose to work with the Captain and Hakon to betray the castle. She chose to leave and save her own skin rather than warning any of the others. Funny, she was willing to put her clan's lives into Hakon and the Captain's hands, but not her own.

She chose to stop eves-dropping without hearing what Macbeth would say to Bodhe. She chose to ALLY HERSELF with the new Hunter who was using Macbeth's connection with gargoyles as a propaganda tool!

Demona did it all to herself, and if you missed that, than I just don't know what to tell you.

<<Sure, you have got to look at her actions, but don't forget that, besides her actions, the place she comes from and the reasons why she became a mace weilding sadist are very different from others.>>

Yes, and if that poor little Austrian weren't beaten by his step-father and was accepted into art school, maybe he wouldn't have been a genocidal sadist. Clearly it's not his fault.

<<If Golaith would approach her, and tell her he was wrong and would now join her, Demona might be baffled, but also very, very, VERY happy.>>

......................... WHAT?!

She would then plot to kill him, and lead the clan in her war on humanity.

She is not going to change with a hug.

<<If Goliath would do the same with Thailog, Big T would laugh his behind off and proceed to skin Big G alive.>>

This is also a lot closer to what Demona would be doing than what you say she would be doing.

<<over centurys she has witnessed genocide, murder, conspiracies, abuse and gore. She has seen what men are capable of. The Holocaust. Bartholemews night. 100 year war. If this time span has thaught her anything, then that the only person she can trust is herself, and the only person with the right moral codex is her>>

Yes, and how many of those terrible things did she participate in herself when it suited her? Probably more than we know.

You just don't get this character at all.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Genetic engineering helps us correct God's horrible mistakes, like German people." - Mr. Garrison
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 12:04:25 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

@ Greg B: Thailog is Satan!! The guy is just one egoistic mojo, and Goliath has got no connection to him whatsoever, besides his DNA.

Demona might have killed a lot more people, but she has become what she is now due to the things that happenned to her, not the actions she has chosen.
And still, Goliath has a connection with her. Even though he hates her for what she has become, and vice versa, they share a daughter and a past. To me, this is a very important point in the whole relationship these two have with each other, for usually the arch-nemesis of the protagonist is his reflection from the outside (Faust, Joker, Sauron) rather than an ex-lover and mother of his child.

Sure, you have got to look at her actions, but don't forget that, besides her actions, the place she comes from and the reasons why she became a mace weilding sadist are very different from others.

If Golaith would approach her, and tell her he was wrong and would now join her, Demona might be baffled, but also very, very, VERY happy.
If Goliath would do the same with Thailog, Big T would laugh his behind off and proceed to skin Big G alive.

"Demona has had centuries to learn and should know better and yet doesn't."

Here I disagree entirely!!
From a mathematic perspective this might sound quite right, but think about it - over centurys she has witnessed genocide, murder, conspiracies, abuse and gore. She has seen what men are capable of. The Holocaust. Bartholemews night. 100 year war. If this time span has thaught her anything, then that the only person she can trust is herself, and the only person with the right moral codex is her ("Humans are all alike in their heart: egoistic saists!").
If anything, it is more than reasonable she got to be the way she is now. I guess if I would live a 1000 years, I would also become a cynical, pessimistic madman.

Demona turning nuclear would be epic.

No, seriously, I think she should aim for a lot less ambigious projects than erase the ENTIRE human race,
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:53:39 am EST from 84.191.226.68

Brook> <<OK, I could not see him saving Thailog, for he is just one ungrateful, sadistic and effed up mojo.>>

Really? Just out of curiosity, how is Thailog worse than Demona? When it comes right down to it, how?

Demona has killed a lot more people than Thailog. Sure, Thailog used and betrayed Demona, but Demona used and betrayed so many others. Yes, Thailog pretended to love her, but is that so different than Demona pretending to love Macbeth?

Hell, Demona used Angela in a scheme to kill her entire clan. Granted, Demona came to actually care for Angela and backed out when Angela's life was on the line. BUT that doesn't change the original sin, and that she was willing to kill everyone else. If Thailog pointed that gun at Angela last, everyone else would be dead.

Plus, there is the whole mass genocide on the human race thing. Thailog hasn't done that yet.

Thailog is a bastard, no disagreement there. But his list of misdeeds does not rival Demona's at all.

If anything, Thailog is just being what he was programmed to be. Demona has had centuries to learn and should know better and yet doesn't.

*** Rhapsody spoilers ***

<< Personally, if Greg would pick this up again, it would be just Hunters Moon 2.0 to me (OK, probably minus the Hunters, but Demonas plot would be close - genocide on the humans, praying Gargoyles saving them).>>

The Praying Gargoyle will eventually come back. That's canon-in-training. As for the scheme. There are only so many ways to commit genocide on the human race without destroying the gargoyles and making the planet uninhabitable for them. Revel can attest that I gave this a lot of thought.

Would you have preferred she attempt to go nuclear? Yeah, that would have turned out well.

*** End spoilers ***
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Genetic engineering helps us correct God's horrible mistakes, like German people." - Mr. Garrison
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:37:12 am EST from 24.205.39.101

Brook> I agree there are a lot of parallels built into the Gargoyles mythos, though I wouldn't assume that we can deduce the entire master plan based on what we've seen so far. Greg is to good at throwing us curve balls.
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:05:29 am EST from 86.41.206.0

Oh, I totally forgot: what do you guys think of the overall image of mirrors/reflections of characters and events throughout the show that I mentioned earlier?

Would you agree on this?
Personally, I find that there are so many (for example Coldifre/Coldstone/Coldsteel to Brooklyn/Angela/Broadway, Demona and Castaway, Elisa and Derek etc.), that it would be easy to foreshadow what would come. (I shoul have paid closer attention that there is no such reflection to lexington, and could have easily foreseen Brentwood...)
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:39:49 am EST from 84.191.226.68

Brook> I could very easily see Goliath giving his life to protect whoever the Hunter was at that point, in part because it would be such a nice mirror of Jason saving Goliath from Jon.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:51:48 am EST from 146.115.115.33

@ Demonskrye: Yeah, it's still a bit rough around the edges, but still... ;)

No, actually, I just wanted to express what big a point for Goliaths character it would be to sacrifice his life for a villain.

Heck, Jordan almost sacrificed his life for the very creatures he hunted for years.

My personal guess, as to how Weisman is going to develop this story, is that Goliath dies due to actions by humans, and so the voters of the GMPA realise that Gargoyles HAVE to be protected - just look at the "Black rights movment" in the 60s. I can envision Weisman having plans that come close.

As to what those actions are, and how Goliath dies, I do not want to wrap my head around.
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:44:15 am EST from 84.191.226.68

@ Greg B: OK - just had the image you did misunderstand moist of my points.

@ Revel: I can see where you're comming from. It is very logic and all. Personally, if Greg would pick this up again, it would be just Hunters Moon 2.0 to me (OK, probably minus the Hunters, but Demonas plot would be close - genocide on the humans, praying Gargoyles saving them).

I find it funny so many people disagree with the idea of Goliath sacrificing his life for a foe of his. Goliath has often tried to safe people, regardless of how it would affect his own health. OK, I could not see him saving Thailog, for he is just one ungrateful, sadistic and effed up mojo. But besides him, in the very right situation, I could even see him try to safe somebody like Castaway... to some degree.

I'm really, really curious how Greg handles Goliaths death... Shame Ive got to wait some 60 years to read THAT story. :(
Brook
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:15:50 am EST from 84.191.226.68

Writing> It's not so much that "said" is an evil word and should be avoided at all costs as that anything being repeated over and over again is going to get kind of boring. If I read a story where the writer went out of his or her way to avoid using "said" or anything like it by constantly using a separate sentence to denote who was talking - as in "'I've been denied everything, even my revenge!' Goliath's cry of fury ripped through the night sky. "Tom's eyes were wide with shock and worry. 'Goliath! You have to help your friends!'" - I'd get sick of that too. As Todd points out, the word "said" can be useful when you don't want the verb to overshadow the dialogue. But I think the trick is to mix it up a bit so it doesn't feel like you're writing to fit a preset form.

Goliath Saving Demona?> ***Very minor RHAPSODY SPOILERS AHEAD***

I hadn't given it too much thought previously, but I'm not sure Goliath giving his life to save Demona makes a whole lot of sense. Of course, everyone's free to have their own opinions and write their own fanfics whether they fit with the canon or not. But Greg B's story is drawing heavily from the canon and canon-in-training and what we know from that is that something about the nature of Goliath's death will aid is the passing of the Gargoyle Minority Protection Act. In light of that, Goliath sacrificing himself to save Demona wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. All the general public would see is a gargoyle protecting another gargoyle. Some who might already be a little sympathetic to gargoyles might be touched at seeing Goliath willing to give his life for another gargoyle. But anyone who knows anything about Demona would likely be very unimpressed that Goliath would choose to save her life so that she could go on to pursue her quest to eradicate humanity.

And all that aside, why would he bother when Demona is immortal. Goliath has probably been aware since "Sanctuary" at least that Demona can't be permanently killed unless Macbeth is the one pulling the trigger. So the only way this makes sense is if Macbeth is trying to kill Demona and that would require some explanation since he's moved away from such suicidal thoughts over time. I'm not saying it could never work as a fanfic, but you'd have to explain a lot to avoid making it seem like Goliath allows himself to be killed to save Demona from what for her is a minor inconvenience.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:13:27 am EST from 146.115.115.33

* FANFIC SPOILERS *

The thing that most struck me about the destruction of the crystal powering the Praying Gargoyle (since Revel brought it up) was that it's brought about more by Demona than by Goliath. Instead of Goliath deliberately smashing it to keep Demona from using it again, we have Demona delivering such a berserk attack on Goliath that he involuntarily crushes it as a result of his injuries. Demona's rage and fury undoes her once again.

* SPOILERS END *

The pieces of advice on good writing that I've read generally advocate using "said", on the grounds that it draws the reader's attention towards the words that the characters are speaking, rather than towards the verb itself. Also, in well-written dialogue, the things that the characters say should be vivid enough that you can tell just by reading them in what tone they're saying it, without variants on "said" to help out.
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:56:22 am EST from 4.244.210.172

Revel: Demona selfish? Naaaaaah...
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I'll prove I'm the goodguy, even if I have to smash this entire city and beat you to a mushy pulp!" -Coop ("Megas XLR")
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:48:52 am EST from 71.62.136.51

Revel> Personally I don't even think Demona has to be pushed to some psychological point of no return. I think any issues she might have had on that score were delt with by the end of season one.
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Fri, Jan 30, 2009 3:27:40 am EST from 83.71.103.112

*One last RHAPSODY point*

To add one last point to those that feel Demona would not go through with killing Goliath or would cave at the end and only maybe hurt him I offer this line of thought.
The Praying Gargoyle, out of all the magical conduits she has used (that we have seen her use) is the only one that grants her the power to protect all the gargoyles in the world. Goliath crushing the statue was annoying but she was able to recover the crystal, shes immortal, she can wait. However having the crystal destroyed is another matter entirely. There is no more Atlantis (that she is aware of) there is no other way to replace it, no way to destroy humanity and NOT her people so in her eyes he has just doomed them all.
Everyone has their breaking point and in Demona's blood glazed eyes Goliath becomes not just that annoying bastard who foils her plans and licks the boots of humanity, no he is the focal point of all things that are wrong. He is a cancer and must be destroyed. I too at first was against the idea of her using the hammer. I didn't think she would be that far gone to do it but after seeing the rough drafts and talking about it with Greg B it makes so much sense. At that moment she doesn't care that it's a Quarry hammer, it's a weapon and it will do the job. On top of all that you have to keep in mind that through out all of this she thinks SHE is the hero she is protecting her daughter and gargoyles everywhere. And of course don't kid yourself, she's being selfish too.
Revel - [samrx5 at msn dot com]
In the immortal words of Socrates when he said, "I drank what?!"
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:36:10 pm EST from 74.193.119.47

Brook: I'm confused as to how Goliath sacrificing himself for Demona against humans accomplishes anything good. All that would do is further fuel Demona's stance against humans. If Goliath has to die, then at least his death should be meaningful to those he protects, and will be a step towards peace and understanding between humans and gargoyles.

I don't think he would leave Demona to the wolves as you suggest, but I don't think he would willingly risk himself for her sake. Rewatch "The Reckoning". He warned Demona of the fire on the roller coaster, but didn't make any effort to save her.
Purplegoldfish
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:05:31 pm EST from 64.148.56.90

I certainly enjoyed Rhapsody and added it to my favorites. I found the Wind Ceremony and Angela's talk at the end with Demona to be moving.

Though I found it odd that Dracon would show up. Not that I think of him as a mustache twirling villain mind you.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:36:10 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

****WARNING: "RHAPSODY" SPOILERS****

Brook: Once again, Angela tells Demona at the very end that the act JUST BARELY passed. I interpret that to mean that it was probably a small handful of votes, maybe one or two. And just because something is law doesn't mean that everyone has to like it.

So, with that being said, I've discussed some of my thoughts on the story with Bishansky in private, but figured I'd post a few here as well, if only to join the conversation.

First off, I disagree with someone who felt that the story didn't have an intro. I thought the opening blurbs (flashing back to Paris in the 1920s and Saint Damien's in 1996) served as a good establisher. Likewise Demona retrieving the statue in 2056. Right off the bat, we can see that the last sixty years haven't done much to improve Demona's attitudes towards humans and genocide (a welcome departure from a lot of Demona fics).

I also like how we got that moment between Goliath and Elisa before we saw the rest of the clan. And several of those interpretations were well thought out. Lexington and Staghart... doesn't seem very farfetched. And I enjoyed the irony of David Xanatos's fate: He finally lost his battle against one of his biggest fears.

To be honest, I felt we got just the right amount of expose here, leaving the large-scale stuff to the imagination.

And once again, Demona overplays her hand. It's not enough that she's about to eradicate humanity, she just can't resist giving them a taste. I kind of like how that paves the way for her undoing here, much like how in 1996, if she'd just thrown the vial to the ground without explaining her plan, she'd have been breaking out the champagne and cigars.

I also like the interpretation of the Quarrymen. Jack seems to be as level-headed as his father. And to be honest, we haven't seen too much of the Quarrymen in canon Gargoyles. What we have seen of them in TGC or fanfic usually paints them as vandals. I think this is the first fanfic I've ever read that really paints them plausibly. They leave their hammers out of sight for the protest outside the UN, and when they do take action, it's to save the hostages in the church. The old woman expressing her thanks to Jack towards the end was a very nice touch.

Goliath's death... well, we got a nice bit of foreshadowing from Jack. He vowed his hammer would kill a gargoyle. From that, I had a feeling where it was going. Wouldn't put it past Demona to pick up a Quarryhammer. She's spent several centuries killing with a mace, after all. On top of that, she destroys the crystal at the center of the statue. That, and Demona's brief reaction after the deed is done was interesting. She was probably starting to think it might never happen. Sadly, no one showed up at the last minute this time.

And yes, I'll admit, my eyes got a little misty when I read Elisa's line to Goliath. Hey, my room's not that well-ventilated, and I haven't dusted in a while. ( ;

But seriously, I also felt the Wind Ceremony was just the right length, and we heard from all the key people. I especially liked Fox speaking for her husband, and Thailog speaking from beyond the grave. Also, and this was a small thing I pointed out to Greg, I especially liked how Nashville referred to Brooklyn by name, instead of calling him "dad." I forgot how he and I got on the subject, somehow we got to talking about the number of times Angela called Goliath "father" after "Mark of the Panther" versus how many times she called him Goliath. But anyhoo...

And this is going back to what I told Brook earlier: I like how the GMPA barely passed. I imagine that a lot of those people joining the Quarrymen were people who had loved ones that were killed by Demona's animated statues. Hey, the Aryan Nation and the KKK still exist today. Just because there's a law against hunting gargoyles, it doesn't mean people can stop hating them. The Quarrymen still have the right to assemble.

I was initially hoping that we got more of a reaction from Demona at the very end, but now I think it's something better left to the reader's imagination. But we can imagine she'll probably be trying to make up some excuse that makes sense only in her mind. It's like Angela said, she's her own worst enemy. That's another thing that's been batted around in the CR and ASK GREG, but had never actually been said in a story. Great way to end it.

***END SPOILERS***

Great fic. Definitely one of my favorites. Greg B showed me a few paragraphs from it early last year, and I'm glad he got to finish it.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Don't. You're too young to experience that much pain." -Ivanova ("Babylon 5")
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:48:15 pm EST from 71.62.136.51

spideyforever> There really isn't much to say about Carnage other than the fact that he's insane, merged with an Alien Symbiote and kills before and after his daily meals.

And frankly, I don't see anyone on here calling you an idiot.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:39:14 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

Brook > So you'd honestly rather see an exchange like this?

Elisa: "Oh my god, they killed Goliath!"
Angela: "You bastards!"
Demona: "LOL i pwned u n00b!"
Broadway: "At least I still have chicken."
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 9:19:00 pm EST from 66.61.27.56

Brook> No one is hurt. You're just beating the dead horse. Your criticisms have all been noted, and you are saying nothing new.

Thank you, come again.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:55:48 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Greg: "Brook> I disagree with your interpretation. Sorry."

What is yours of the situation then?

And please, no need to get rough. I would like to talk some about this. No need to feel hurt.
Brook
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:53:54 pm EST from 84.191.205.153

Brook> I don't mind criticism. I really don't. But honestly, I am tired of hearing from you on this subject. You have made your points, you have made them quite clear, and I disagree with you on most of them.

Thank you, come again.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:50:41 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Demonskrye> Thanks for the comments. Nope, I did not map out the entire sixty years. And honestly, I tried to keep the focus of the story down to Demona, Angela, Goliath and Elisa. I gave the others little moments, and I am sure there are hundreds of view points from which to tell this story from, but those four were the heart and soul, so naturally, they were the focus of it all.

It's hard to juggle a huge cast, so I had to make a choice there. I would have loved to give everyone a character arc. But, like I said, this was conceived of, and thought of as a short story. So, there we go.

Brook> I disagree with your interpretation. Sorry.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:49:00 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

"I don't know a writer in the world who isn't challenged to avoid constant repetition of "Goliath said," "Demona said," "Elisa said," etc."

REALLY?
SERIOUSLY?
Nothing against Greg, but I know lots of writers who don't applay ANY "said"s. And this would be my main advice to you, Greg, just leave out describing what they DO; but rather what the person next to them sees. Kinda like: "OMG, Goliath is dead!" the expression of shock was still on Brooklyns face. "Hahaha, I totally owned him!!! Quaryman hammer, hahaha, I OWNED you GOLIATH!!" with a thundering sound, Demona threw the hammer to the ground." etc. Add some more time and better expressions, and it will be totally cool. :)
Brook
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:45:35 pm EST from 84.191.205.153

Ask Greg> Good to get an update. It's not a ton more information, but at least we know that the comics portions of the trades are pretty much ready to go, save for a little lettering error. (I'm not sure if things like a forward, cover design, etc particular to the trade itself are all set.) It would have been nice to know where the May/June dates came from, but it's possible Greg may not know.

Bowen Statue> The way I remember hearing it, the Bowen "Gargoyle" statue was originally supposed to be a Goliath statue, but Disney wanted to much money for the license so slight changes were made to make it different enough to avoid lawsuit. I guess something was worked out since then and it's back to being Goliath. I think I'll save my pennies for the Electric Tiki statue, but if anyone feels this is more up their alley or has the money to buy both, feel free.

Rhapsody> ***POTENTIAL FANFIC TYPE SPOILERS***

Most of the stuff being brought up as problems doesn't bother me all that much (which is not to say they aren't legitimate criticisms). I don't know a writer in the world who isn't challenged to avoid constant repetition of "Goliath said," "Demona said," "Elisa said," etc. It's not any easy thing to do, but I didn't feel like Greg B was doing a particularly bad job with it. As for the characters not feeling like they're really sixty years older, it's a tough balancing act. Change them too little and it doesn't feel like they've really aged. Change them too much and they don't seem like the same characters at all any more. Greg is drawing pretty heavily from the canon and canon in training here. We honestly don't know a ton about what happens to these characters in the future and as much effort as I'm sure he put into writing this story, I kind of doubt Greg thought up sixty years worth of incidents for each of them to be influenced by. We can see some of how they've changed over the years, maybe more as a group then individuals, but that really doesn't seem like the focus of this story.

The one thing that I did notice while I was reading was that some of the dialogue in the first part felt a little exposition heavy. Characters seemed to be thinking about or discussing things that they and everyone else already knew so that the audience could stay informed. It didn't persist throughout the story and it wasn't a deal killer for me, but it was something that caught my attention.

As for Goliath's death, I do agree that the symbolism of Demona using a Quarrymen hammer to kill Goliath was too good to pass up. The problem that I had was reconciling the violence of her attack with the following scene. I was envisioning the clan mourning Goliath as kind of like a pieta. (Incidentally, I don't know if you intended Goliath getting speared in the wing to be kind of a Christ allusion, but it crossed my mind since I got the idea of where the story was going.) Thing is, it's kind of hard to envision Angela and Elisa tenderly grieving over Goliath's body when his head is spread over a three foot radius. ;)

***SPOILERS END***
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:40:36 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Greg: "Then I thought about Greg's revelation that Goliath's sacrifice of his life would lead to the passage of the GMPA. What could he sacrifice himself fighting? Demona's latest scheme of genocide seemed the natural."

One more thin: I find this highly illogic. To me, this sounds as if, out of gratitude, humans vote for the GMPA - not because they see the Gargoyles as humanoid, intelligent creatures that should be taken a lot more care of than the "OMG, monsters" from 1996.
Brook
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:32:51 pm EST from 84.191.205.153

Purplegoldfish: You're right. I'll stop feeding the trolls, starting... now!

Count me in as another fan who went to Ask Greg, expecting bad news, and got the complete opposite! That's great news about the trades. I can't wait to have them in my grasp!
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:20:08 pm EST from 74.213.121.140

I know I've been posting a lot today. But I'll say a little more about "Rhapsody"

*** FIC SPOILERS ***

First off, I was not expecting my story to get the amount of attention it has. I'll admit, it's a little overwhelming. But, you throw something out there, you get attention, or you don't. So, I am very flattered by all this.

I actually began this, and wrote out the first ten or so pages well over a year ago. This story was originally meant to be a part of the Gathering 2008's "Items of Enchantment" Anthology. The item of enchantment I picked was the Praying Gargoyle.

Now, there are a lot of things it could have done in the past that I could have explored, but I wanted to use the canon characters. Since Greg has said that, if left on holy ground, the Praying Gargoyle will regenerate after sixty years, 2056 became the year I was going to play in.

Then, I started thinking about what the other characters would be doing. What would the gargoyles' place in the world be?

Then I thought about Greg's revelation that Goliath's sacrifice of his life would lead to the passage of the GMPA. What could he sacrifice himself fighting? Demona's latest scheme of genocide seemed the natural.

Also, Goliath in 2056, is the same age Hudson is in 1996. Something about that just felt right to me.

Fiona Canmore was thrown in there to tie things together, in a way. That was a notion I came up with because I wanted her there to set Jack Castaway against Demona. Greg revealed that as of 1996, she is still alive at the age of 107. So, I figured, make her an Illuminatus and give her the rejuvenation drugs. Maybe she was Jon's contact and helped set him up as Castaway. But, really, I figured she was a nice throw back to "The Last"

I tell you, doing the math to figure out how old everyone was was a bitch, especially with characters affected by time travel like Brooklyn and Griff.

Also, the date I picked, October 23rd, is when the Hunter's Moon that year will actually fall. It was not just a random date. I did the research.

Now, as for why the story is "so short," well, as I said, it was conceived of as a short story for the Anthology. The Anthology had a 5,000 word limit. The final product is over 14,000 words. It was too big for the Anthology, and my life getting hectic is one of the reasons why I shelved it.

In the last few months, I graduated from film school with a major in producing and a minor in screenwriting. So, yes, my style is a little more cinematic. I am working on three screenplays at once, as we speak.

But, during my last couple of months of unemployment, my muse kicked in and wanted me to dust off the story and finish it. I'm starting a new job soon, so I figured, why not? Finish it while I still have the time.

And I did, it spent almost a month in edits, being polished, alone. I didn't want to just throw it out there. I put a lot of care into this, and had great editors working with me.

Could it have been longer? Sure. Did it need to be? I don't think so. Yes, it was conceived of as a short story, and that's how it is. I didn't set out to write a novel. I have projects that I am working on that I hope to make money with that I am devoting that time too.

But, don't think for a moment that I did not pour my heart and soul into this. I actually broke twice while writing it.

I am glad that most of you liked it. Two of you hated it, but that's okay. Much better writers than me have had their works hated . I am just flattered that something I wrote inspired this level of discussion.

In any event, here's the cast list and all the ages.

Cast & Ages
Goliath - 1118 (59)
Demona - 1118 (35)
Coldstone/Coldfire - 1118
Brooklyn - 1098 (69)
Katana - Unknown (69)
Lexington/Broadway - 1098 (49)
Angela - 978 (49)
Fiona Canmore - 169 (70)
Griff - 158 (51)
Zafiro - 138 (69)
David Xanatos - 101.
Staghart/Constance - 98 (49)
Fox - 90 (50)
Robyn Monmouth - 90
Elisa Maza - 88
Tony Dracon - 86
Nashville - 78 (39)
Sphinx - Unknown
Terry Chung - 72
Alexander Fox Xanatos - 60
Tachi - 58 (29)
Jack Castaway - 50
Artus - 38 (19)
Gwenyvere - 18 (9)
Lancelot - Still an egg.
Thailog - Deceased

Nope, no regrets. I am proud of this one.

Thank you, all.

*** END SPOILERS ***
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:13:53 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Greg B> To be honest, I'm not surprised your anonymous critic is chossing to remain anonymous. Minus a few misconceptions, the reviewers criticisms seem to be valid, if not neccesarily agreed upon by the majority here. And thats the real thing. Someone who doesn't like your fanfic is naturally going to be in the minority and risks attack. That is why I suspect that Anonymous is, in fact, a regular to this room who is choosing, at this time and perhaps for good reason, to remain unidentififed. I could be wrong.
And no, it isn't me, lol. I enjoyed the story. There were parts that were very interesting and entertaining. There were also parts that bothered me or felt out of whack with the Gargoyles Universe, though I admit your loyalty to canon and canon-in-training was clear. The point is, these are my opinions. This is your story. I think most everyone can agree that it rates higher than the bulk of Gargoyles fanfic that has been written. Just my two cents.

And count me in as someone who nervously read Greg Weisman's recent post. I was bracing myself for bad news, but it looks like good news to me. So hooray!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:11:45 pm EST from 70.230.145.71

Spidey > Could you please just drop it? Obviously, there are not many Spiderman fans here (personally, I am not a Spiderman fan and have no idea what youre talking about), nobody is bashing you or your favorite character, and youre only getting skipped because people are not in the mood to talk about Spiderman, we want to talk about Gargoyles. Just leave it alone, please? Join our Gargoyles conversation or take your Spiderman conversation to a Spiderman chatroom.

Greg W > *still really happy over trade news*

*skips off to maybe hopefully finish Gargoyle fanfiction?!*
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:02:12 pm EST from 192.146.226.148

YEAH!! :) Somebodys reading this... :)

@ Purple: Sure. No problem with that. :)
Then again, watch out for loopholes here. Sure, Demona might be immortal, but who knows what comes around.
Also, Goliath saving her would not be a surprise to me, imagine Goliath going "Ah, heck, no, let her die..."
Also, I did not mention what he safes her from. Or who he safes her from.

Anyways, my idea is that Goliath is killed due to the actions of humans.
Brook
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 8:00:57 pm EST from 84.191.205.153

You know what just ignore that I absolutely wasted time typing that.
spideyforever
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:56:44 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

<D.Taina I know I know I realized that after my post. I was referring to the Carnage bashers calling me an idiot and of course there was an unnecessary post by a certain Greg B(He knows what I mean) and the fact that I swore but didn't call any body an idiot or any name(gay,retard,etc. I did use dumbass but other than that nothing(that I know of). Bottom line I didn't call anybody idiots for bashing Carnage so unless you want me to fight fire with fire don't call me one.
spideyforever
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:51:39 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

Thanks for alerting us to Greg Weisman's new post, Bishansky. So now we know that all (or almost all) of the writing and drawing is done. That's extremely good news.
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:49:01 pm EST from 4.244.208.240

Well that's something. I'm glad to hear that both trades are (mostly) done. I can't imagine why it would take so long to release them but I'm sure there are reasons.
Purplegoldfish
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:40:34 pm EST from 64.148.56.90

Greg W's update > *sighs with relief* I feel better now that we have more information. Thank you Greg W!!! Now we know that at least the trades are done so its all on the publisher to release them. Hopefully maybe they will change their minds about the release date, maybe move it up? *crosses fingers*
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:39:19 pm EST from 209.243.38.9

Greg Weisman just posted a major update over at Ask Greg. Check it out.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:20:50 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Purplegoldfish: To be accurate, we know Demona doesn't redeem herself before the events of 2198, but there's never really been any indication that she WILL once the Space Spawn takeover, other than that it could possibly be her last chance to do so.

But yes, if she does manage to find redemption, it won't be until well after Goliath's death.
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:01:11 pm EST from 157.242.214.54

Spideyforever-guys, why are we feeding the troll?

Brook: You don't agree with GregB's interpretation of events, but I don't agree with your story idea. I can't see Goliath dying for Demona. Sure in the dark ages he would have, but not now. First of all, he knows she's immortal and can't die anyway, second of all he's lost all love and respect for her. Third, she represents a danger to the people that he loves and protects. In a way, she's probably already dead to him-I doubt he would put that much effort into saving her.

And I think Goliath dying for Demona would be a lot more tragic than Goliath dying for all the citizens in Manhattan. Mainly because his death would be in vain. I doubt the GMPA would pass because of that, and we know that Demona doesn't redeem herself until long after Goliath's and even Angela's lifetimes. So this would accomplish nothing. Eemona would probably just use it as another excuse to go on a killing spree, which kind of defeats the purpose.
Purplegoldfish
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:44:54 pm EST from 64.148.56.90

Tony> It basically the same generic just-different-enough-from-goliath-to-avoid-giving-disney-money gargoyle statue he did a while a go. If they're going to do a proper Goliath statue, they could at least give him the right number of fingers.

If I were you I'd skip this and save up for the Electric Tiki figure instead. Still it's good to see more official merchendise on the streets so to speak.
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:28:12 pm EST from 83.71.103.112

According to the comments, it's based on a generic gargoyle statue he made earlier:

http://www.heo.com/Bowen-Designs-Collectibles-Statue-Gargoyle-58cm-xxl-ss2433.asp
http://www.sideshowtoy.com/mas_assets/large/2433.jpg?affiliate=toyark
http://chilejuguetes.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/randy-bowens-gargoyle-st2.jpg

Notice the 2006-2008 copyright for the old design and 2009 for the new. The old statue was obviously inspired by Disney's Gargoyles but changed enough to avoid a lawsuit. Now he's licensed by Disney but didn't change his original design that much so it's still quite a bit off. I don't mind the attempt at realism and it is kind of growing on me. But I wouldn't pay $275 for something that off-model, especially when it's 2 feet tall.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 6:17:25 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

Do you guys click on The Barracuda's name and see this statue? Looks kinda lame, what do you guys think?

http://www.toyark.com/news/disney-toy-news-38/bowen-releasing-new-gargoyles-goliath-statue-722/
Anthony Tini
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 5:53:21 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

***WARNING: "RHAPSODY" SPOILERS***

Anonymous: In all fairness, at the end of the story, the GMPA passes by a hair's breadth. Angela even says so. And it still doesn't necessarily mean that the whole world loves gargoyles. As Greg B said, Quarrymen recruitment increased, as well. Just because they can't hunt gargoyles doesn't mean they've lost their right to Free Assembly. That's still protected by the Constitution.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Don't. You're too young to experience that much pain." -Ivanova ("Babylon 5")
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 5:47:08 pm EST from 71.62.136.51

Spideyforever: First, you scream, "I DIDN'T CALL ANYONE AN IDIOT." And then, "AS MANY TIMES AS YOU IDIOTS WANT." So, which is it? :P
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 5:31:02 pm EST from 74.213.121.140

I found this site on a Spidey-related Google search so I'm asking the Spectacular Spider-man related questions. Actually Greg Weisman designed this for Gargoyles but lets fans ask about any Greg Weisman projects(past and present).
spideyforever
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 5:29:43 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

*** Fic Spoilers ***

<<It was too fast, quite frankly, just like in the last TGC episode, Gargoyles save a bunch of people and are suddenly "loved">>

Which didn't happen in what I wrote. "Suddenly loved," nope. Didn't happen.

Lyndon B. Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and prejudice didn't vanish. Actually, the KKK became even more popular. Kind of like what I wrote with the GMPA and the Quarrymen.

"I have to agree with Brook, it didn't feel like the characters had aged at all, they felt just like their 1995 counterparts. And in a certain way it also felt like a cop out to not have Elisa and Goliath's nameless(!) child appear as more than a mention by the two of them, apparently we just missed him on the phone (*rolls eyes*) and he is stuck in Scotland (*rolls eyes*) to never be mentioned again (still stuck in Scotland when Goliath's Wind Ceremony happens, while everybody else managed to come)."

Except that HE WAS THERE! I even said that he was there.

"our adopted son and his wife and children, I'm glad they finally made it here; and to everyone else who touched our lives."

See, I wrote that. Not my fault you missed it. That, and honestly, I did not want to create this character. I am leaving that to Greg. I don't want to define this kid.

<<Brooklyn's time travels: check (son, named, only appears once, second child not even mentioned).>>

Both Nashville and Tachi are in the story.

In the mean time, it's hard to take seriously the criticisms of someone who won't sign their name to a review. Instead of rolling your eyes, why don't you grow a pair and sign your name.

*** END SPOILERS ***
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 5:29:39 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

SpideyForever> Little tip man: trying to play the race card with a bunch of people who've never met you or have any clue what you look like is not the soundest tactic.

And people aren't ignoring you cause your black or a Carnage fan, they're doing it because your an asshole.
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 5:20:14 pm EST from 213.94.176.77

Greg B > Haha! Same here. Wonders never cease, eh?

That said, my internet time is up at our local library and I don't have internet at my apartment, so I'm out for the day. Peace.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 5:15:37 pm EST from 199.80.70.82

>Because there is no detail other than it "drips." You have to imagine it all yourself. We were very careful infact in editing to keep it relatively PG-13 so to speak.

There aren't many things which can drip after a head has been hit multiple times by a hammer wielded by a rampaging Gargoyle. And just to be cheeky, you can't say that there wasn't gore when there is gore in the fic. I can quote it if you want.

I found it rather unconvincing that Goliath's death changed everything so "easily", everybody was quite sure that Castaway had the better arguments even afterwards. It also didn't feel like the voting people had much knowledge of whole consequences the incident could have had or Goliath's reasons. Angela and co were quite sure that it wouldn't pass, and then, oh, surprise, surprise, the motion went through.
It was too fast, quite frankly, just like in the last TGC episode, Gargoyles save a bunch of people and are suddenly "loved" (for obvious reasons TGC couldn't do the death).

I have to agree with Brook, it didn't feel like the characters had aged at all, they felt just like their 1995 counterparts. And in a certain way it also felt like a cop out to not have Elisa and Goliath's nameless(!) child appear as more than a mention by the two of them, apparently we just missed him on the phone (*rolls eyes*) and he is stuck in Scotland (*rolls eyes*) to never be mentioned again (still stuck in Scotland when Goliath's Wind Ceremony happens, while everybody else managed to come).

In parts it read like someone went down a checklist and ticked of all the people and events, some of them only known via Greg, and threw them in a story.
Macbeth, Tony Dracon, Thailog, Ultra-Pack, Mab: Check.
Known clans mentioned (with leaders if applicable): check.
Unamed adopted son: check.
Demona: check.
Angela not reconciling with her mother during her lifetime: check. (insinuated)
Praying Gargoyle: check.
Angela and Broadway's children: check.
Brooklyn's time travels: check (son, named, only appears once, second child not even mentioned).
Oberon and Titania: check.
Quarrymen: check.

I hope that the real story plays out a lot more subtle than that and that the act doesn't immediately get through jsut because Goliath dies or at least Goliath dies more epically.
Anonymouse
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 5:14:57 pm EST from 88.130.182.19

Rebel> I know you and I disagree a lot. But I'm really loving you today :)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 5:09:17 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Gah, that should read "overlooked," not "looked over." Different things. Sometimes my Spanish comes back to haunt me. :P
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 5:08:28 pm EST from 74.213.121.140

Spideyforever: Okay, I'll walk you through this. See that big logo on the top left? It says "Gargoyles." Not "Spider-Man." Not "Carnage." This is a Gargoyles comment room. Here, we talk about Gargoyles. Your off-topic comment was looked over because we were talking about Gargoyles. Do you understand?
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 4:57:44 pm EST from 74.213.121.140

spideyforever > I don't think you're black. A black person who has experienced any racial discrimination at all would not compare racial discrimination to "discrimination" faced by fans of a particular character, which is a voluntary decision and is frankly very insignificant. While similar in principle (technically), full-blown racism and someone's question getting overlooked in a comment room are completely different in magnitude, to the point that making the comparison at all is insulting to people who have actually experienced racial discrimination.

Furthermore, no one deliberately skipped you because you were a Carnage fan. They skipped you because your question either didn't interest them or they didn't know enough to give you an answer. That's all. I've had my questions overlooked before, and it's not a personal slight. It's just because no one has anything to say.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 4:51:46 pm EST from 199.80.70.82

I DIDN'T CALL ANYONE AN IDIOT. I JUST WANTED TO STOP BASHING CARNAGE AND GOT PISSED ABOUT ALL OF IT. THAT WAS NOT NECESSARY AT ALL. SKIPPING ME CAUSE I'M A CARNAGE FAN AND YOU DON'T LIKE CARNAGE IS LIKE SKIPPING A BLACK PERSON'S QUESTION BECAUSE THEY'RE BLACK. YOU GUYS CAN'T EVEN FIGURE THAT OUT COME ON. THINK BEFORE YOU COMMENT!!!! I JUST WANTED TO KNOW WHAT YOU GUYS THOUGHT.

P.S. I'M BLACK SO JUST SAY NIGGER AS MANY TIMES AS YOU IDIOTS WANT.
spideyforever
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 4:44:50 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

But Demona and Goliath are not Wile E. Coyote and the Roadrunner. I'm not saying that Demona will kill Goliath one day, but to say that she should continue to try, but should NEVER succeed, is, in my opinion, not treating them in a way that is in keeping with how the Gargoyles Universe is. It's always been a universe where things change, the status quo gets shaken up, characters age and evolve, etc. It's a universe that continues to surprise me. Nobody knows who will kill Goliath or precisely how he will die, but it could just as well be Demona as anybody else. For all we know, it COULD be Jackal and Hyena, or Castaway, or Coyote, or whoever. Just because they have all failed so far doesn't mean one of them might not succeed one day.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 4:43:12 pm EST from 199.80.70.82

Spideyforever> <<Yeah skip me cause I'm a Carnage fan. That's like skipping someone's question and comment because they're black. In other words it's like being racist.>>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKjxFJfcrcA
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 3:31:05 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Haha, sorry guys, dunno how I came up with Demona cloning Thailog. i guess I mixed it up with her helping Xanatos rviving Coldstone... XD

@ Rebel: Yeah... though, that is, to me, the main flaw, if I can name one - I find it unlikely, Demona will kill Goliath. She tries, yep. But so do Jackal and Heyena.
I can't even say what it is, it just feels very... wrong if Demona kills Goliath in the end...

@ Greg B: Sure. These were never objective points, but rather subjective. The only objective one was, as stated before, the style of writing. It felt to me like a treatment for an EP. Then again, I have high standarts (my mother is a writer and I'm writing the screenplays for my (short)films). So, yeah, whatever.

I will not write my own fanfic though. Greg is handling the material PERFECTLY in EVERY way so far, there is nothing to alter for me.
I'm writing on the script, just to see how far I can take it for myself, and because I'm a bit left in the gray with the production of my short...

I think it is better to "perfectionise" (god is that the word? I hope so) what we already have, rather than making up what might happen. Adapting is so much more interresting to me than making up when it comes to an episodic story...
Brook
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 2:48:04 pm EST from 84.191.205.153

Thank you Incisivis, about you agreeing the gore was not excessive. Because there is no detail other than it "drips." You have to imagine it all yourself. We were very careful infact in editing to keep it relatively PG-13 so to speak. That there are bad things going on and "Red Shirts" dying everywhere but you don't see it you just have to use your imagination, which is a fine wire to walk. Like any writer knows you want to point the audience in the right direction but let them picture the scene details themselves. Like any fic story you have to take it for what it is, there are going to be things you like and dislike, same as when a book is adapted for the silver screen. And don't let that humility fool you, Greg B did the work on this Todd and I just polished it.
Revel - [samrx5 at msn dot com]
In the immortal words of Socrates when he said, "I drank what?!"
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 1:31:15 pm EST from 74.193.119.47

Oh, just one more thing. I want to thank my editors, Todd Jensen and Revel for their help with this story. They both rocked and it came out much better than it would have without them, and I thank them for that.

Todd posts here, and announced it. But, I hope Revel steps in and says something. He contributed a lot.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 1:22:40 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

REBEL> You are 100% correct. I'll admit, I was working on a response, but you're right.

Brook> I had to be true and honest to what I can see based on what we know at the moment. Go ahead and write yours, and be true and honest to what you think will happen. Both stories can stand on their own.

And, yeah, Demona did not create Thailog. Sorry. ;)

Incisivis> Thanks!
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 1:21:17 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Brook: "Somehow, I still think that Demona trying to kill Goliath is a part of her anger. I still think, that for her, in a perfect world, Goliath would not be dead, but understand her and join her. She even CLONED him, for gods sake!!"

Really?! Wow, I had no idea that Demona was Thailog's mother, too. Now that's just wrong on so many levels...
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 1:21:12 pm EST from 74.213.121.140

Sorry for the double. Some additional posts were added while I was typing my last one.

Brook > All I can say is that you need to write a fanfic of your own rather than expecting other people to read your mind and write what you would have written. Your idea is good, really good, but it's not fair for your to critique someone else's story simply because they didn't take it in the same direction you would have.

And Demona did not clone Goliath. Xanatos did.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 1:16:27 pm EST from 199.80.70.81

spideyforever > Out of genuine curiousity, why are you still posting here? I'm not saying that you should leave, but I don't see how this place could possibly hold any enjoyment for you.

As far as team-ups go, I dislike them and I prefer it when they don't happen. To me, they usually seem like gimmicks rather than genuine attempts to tell good stories. One of my favorite comic book characters from the "Image Universe", Wolf-man, recently had a crossover and team-up with another character, Invincible. I was really disappointed when I heard it was going to happen, but thankfully, the writer, Robert Kirkman, pulled it off nicely. However, he created both of those characters, so I think that had something to do with it. He used the crossover to further both characters' stories, and at the end, established them as allies. It all went very well. So, this proves that team-ups and crossovers CAN be done well. However, I doubt this is the norm. If Spider-man teams up with anybody, it needs to be done in such a way where it's not just a gimmick and it actually tells a good story. Both characters involved in the team-up need to be respected as ends and not merely used as fodder for the story. If Greg W did it, I'm sure this would be the case. But I can't say the same about everybody. So, I don't know. I don't really want a team-up, but if it happens, so be it.

Greg B > I haven't read your fanfic yet, but I intend to. Judging from what everyone else has said, it sounds really good. However, there is something I wanted to mention for your consideration. It's a conclusion I've come to from taking several creative writing workshops/classes at my university. In my experience, if someone gives you some "constructive criticism" that isn't helpful, it's probably best to just ignore it. If you respond to unhelpful constructive criticism in a way that shows that you don't consider it helpful, you may inadvertently discourage other people who would offer genuinely helpful or useful constructive criticism from doing so. People that you know well will certainly not be dissuaded, but others might be. Just a thought; take it or leave it. Anyway, kudos for tackling something as significant as Goliath's death.

Brook > I understand what you are saying, but none of us knows for sure what the future holds for the Gargoyles universe. I'm sure your ideas are good and that you like them a lot, but the story Greg has written is most definitely not outside the range of possibility, based on what we know so far. Try not to think about what you WISH would happen, and instead consider whether something COULD potentially happen, and then evaluate how well the fanfic author pulled it off. Then go from there in creating your review.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 1:10:32 pm EST from 199.80.70.81

SPOILERS FOR RHAPSODY

Yeah, it's true that bad fanfic still gets tons and tons of positive reviews, but when you've got something where most reviews are articulate and have a little depth, I think it's safe to say you've got at least some quality happening there. :P

Demona WOULD kill Goliath. Anything they would have meant to each other is long gone, and her killing him is almost poetic in how it relates to what has gone before.

Characters do age, and it is an interesting exercise for authors to try to imagine their heroes as elderly without degenerating into comedy or a complete loss of what made them memorable. Unfortunately, it's also true that with fanfic, one can't stray too far away from what the audience knows, so the characters' core personalities had to remain relatively intact. On the other hand, who's to say that some things *wouldn't* have remained durable? Age is age, but personality is also personality.

Excessive gore? No. There needed to be something to help the audience form a picture in their minds.

Angela, I liked. She still had some lack of distinctive elements, but at least she was bold, decisive, and every inch the leader.

The GMP would, yeah, just in that time period be gaining its legs. Look at the long trudge of other social movements, then consider that gargoyles are another SPECIES rather than just a race or a gender or a sexuality, and a species that looks like "demons" to the ignorant.

And of course we all expected GregX to do this, but I appreciate a story where Goliath and Elisa adopt instead of concieving a biological child.

END SPOILERS
Incisivis
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 12:53:38 pm EST from 142.13.23.62

Ha, now I got your attention. :)

@ Greg B: No need to get bitchy. As I said before, all these things are my speculations, and, if there were a GARGOYLES-money-game the things I would bet on.
We KNOW Goliath does die at some point in the next, what was it, 40 years??, and that it will be violent (what I personally find very, very sad, the guy would have deserved to live a long life). For somebody who in the oast has very often criticised people due to the exact words they wrote down, you seemed to have skipped that I said "I am sure" not "I do know". I am sure as in "Hey, I'm sure Geroge Lucas had not a clue when writing EPISODE 1." He might have had a clue, but it is my assumption he did not.

I wouldn't say that the characters are timeless a la Simpsons. They do age, of course. My problem wit that is their aging in fanfiction.
I'm in general not fond of fanfiction. Largely, this might be due to the amount of books in my room I still have to read (here we go, Mr. James Joyce) and my disappointment with the VERY well written TGS (basically cause I kept looking back and forth, and still, even as close as one thing can be to canon, it wasn't close to what we have now in storyline and character development).

For example, take Brentwood. If a fanfiction is written before the comic, that takes place in, say 2030, in which Brentwood is a criminal mastermind - I couldn't see it. I would flip through it, say "What the hell." and discard the story as being dull. I do not know what led up to this, and I do not know why Brentwood underwent the change of... well, mindless slave to criminal mastermind.

My problem with the story was basically that the characters, although a lot older, did not feel like they've truly lived as long as they would have. In TGS, the Timedancing Brooklyn was quite a bit different to the one we knew from beforehand. In the story, I could just not see these characters act and talk at that age, with all these years inbetween.Probably they will in Gregs universe, but I doubt it (if you look at the change Goliath went through, beginning post Awakening until Journey, he has changed SO MUCH, and that was just one year).

Now on to Demona.

Greg is using many, many reflections of characters in GARGOYLES. What the Joker is to Batman and Venom to Spidey, Castaway is to Demona, Thailog to Goliath, Elisa to Derreck.

SURE, Demona tries to kill Goliath, many many many times. But could you ever see her succeeding? If you imagine to look back on the finished show, could you really imagine Demona being the one to kill Goliath?

It would be a lot more dramatic, for example, if Goliath would try to save Demona and die in the course of that. Just imagine Demonas face when she realised that he sacrificed himself for her - who tried to kill him a dozen of times, who tried to kill his clan dozens of times and who tried to kill every single human being on the face of earth... once? Oh well, lots of time left for THAT...

It would also be a mirror to HUNTERS MOON 3, where Jason takes the bullet from John to safe the very creatures he tried to kill over and over again.

These are just my personal ideas. Sure, everybody has his or her own, but I think from a greater scheme, it does make a lot more sense both dramatically and and characteristically.

Somehow, I still think that Demona trying to kill Goliath is a part of her anger. I still think, that for her, in a perfect world, Goliath would not be dead, but understand her and join her. She even CLONED him, for gods sake!!
Brook
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 12:47:42 pm EST from 84.191.205.153

Brook> "Also, I could NEVER, EVER see Demona kill Goliath. It just doesn't fit with the theme of reflection throughout the show."

Wha-? Dude have you watched Gargoyles recently, Demona tries to kill Goliath all the time and she'll probably keep trying to kill the Big G until she gets it right or someone beats her to it.
Algernon - [PadraigG8 at yahoo dot com]
"I'd rather be a climbing ape then a falling angel"- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 12:21:16 pm EST from 86.41.219.159

*** FANFIC TYPE SPOILERS ***

Brook> "Also, I could NEVER, EVER see Demona kill Goliath. It just doesn't fit with the theme of reflection throughout the show."

Pardon my language, but just what the hell are you basing this on?

Okay. You can't see the characters old, as they are clearly ageless like on "The Simpsons." Goliath doesn't live that long, as you clearly have access to Greg Weisman's secret timeline, and you know that Goliath will die saving Demona.

Here, here is what we know.

- 2008 is way too soon for the GMPA to pass.
- The Praying Gargoyle takes sixty years to regenerate.
- Goliath sacrifices his life, and shortly after, due to this sacrifice, the GMPA passes.

Aw well, can't please 'em all.

*** END SPOILERS ***
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:49:16 am EST from 24.205.39.101

Just saw this. Looks all right even though the model and details are off, but I thought this was out a while ago. I remember seeing pictures.
The Barracuda
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 11:04:30 am EST from 204.174.35.47

Frank Paur talks with Newsarama about the new Marvel DTV movie he directs, Hulk Vs:

http://www.newsarama.com/tv/090127-animated-shorts-paur.html
http://www.newsarama.com/tv/010929-AS-Paur2.html
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 10:58:52 am EST from 128.101.32.234

@ Phoenecian: Sure, but they were minor characters to the storyarc, and it was after all a GARGOYLES EP.

Reading the fanfic, I was left with the impression that the characters were almost like their 1996 counterparts, only with an older age applied to them, but besides that not very much altered by time.

Also, I could NEVER, EVER see Demona kill Goliath. It just doesn't fit with the theme of reflection throughout the show.

(my secret idea is that Goliath actually dies SAVING Demona)
Brook
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:46:48 am EST from 84.191.188.247

spideyforever> It is not at all uncommon for people's comments to get ignored, even if they are relevant to "Gargoyles," the topic being discussed, or what have you. It's not unique to this website either. Sometimes a comment sparks off a huge conversation, sometimes it just gets ignored. Under most circumstances, it's nothing personal. People are just too focused on another topic or don't feel that they have anything to say about what you've posted. As Landon pointed out, the primary focus of this comment room is "Gargoyles" and while introducing other topics is perfectly all right, but you should understand that not every off-topic comment (or even every on-topic one) is going to get a response. Again referring back to Landon's comment, there are plenty of web forums where you could probably get much more interest in discussing Spider-Man. Speaking only for myself, I feel like you've made your feelings on Carnage very clear several times over. I don't really have a tremendously strong opinion of the character one way or the other, so I really didn't feel like I had anything to say to your last comment.

Saying that ignoring your comment is the equivalent of racism is not going to make anyone more sympathetic to your feelings or viewpoint. Race is something that you are born with; you have no choice in the matter. Liking or disliking a particular fictional character is something you choose to do. You are entitled to your opinion, of course. But if some of us don't share your opinion or opt not to engage in conversation with you about it for whatever reason, it doesn't mean that we are some how prejudiced against you because you have a differing opinion.

You are perfectly free to talk about pretty much whatever you want here and the individual members of the comment room are free to respond to you or not. If you feel that you are being unfairly ignored or that there is a bias against you here, you are equally free to try other websites where people may share more of your interests. It's your decision, but you're really not going to get much response anywhere if you continue telling people to shut up when their opinions differ from yours or taking offense when people aren't replying to everything you say.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:43:57 am EST from 146.115.115.33

Yeah, the last time I checked, not liking a one-dimensional character who really just had one requirement, and that was to look cool so he could sell comics, makes one a racist. Of course, that's only if the person using the word doesn't have any clue what it means. Which I imagine he doesn't. You'll note that his first comment was to tell us all in capital letters to shut up, and then he goes and calls us immature. I'm also trying to figure out why he would complain about no one responding to a question. I thought he had a life. Or, maybe since he doesn't know what words mean, his definition of life is "tube sock and the Maximum Carnage graphic novel."
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Don't. You're too young to experience that much pain." -Ivanova ("Babylon 5")
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 7:01:32 am EST from 71.62.136.51

Greg B > Just read your story and I loved it! You actually made me tear up a little near the end. I posted a full review on Fanfiction.net. Keep up the great writing!
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Thu, Jan 29, 2009 12:06:35 am EST from 209.243.38.9

spideyforever - You may get a better conversation about TSS-M's comic connections here: http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=223717 You're on a Gargoyles website and you can't assume everyone knows who Carnage is. Most people here watch TSS-M because they're Greg Weisman fans, not necessarily because they're Spider-Man comic fans.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot mail dot service]
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 11:59:49 pm EST from 216.250.163.157

Spidey: No one's skipping your question because they're rude. They probably don't have anything to say. It happens all the time, and it's not really a big deal. It's irritating when you want people to respond, but not everyone wants to talk about the same things.

TPB: I'm looking forward to the Time-Dancer Arc, but I'm really excited to see the conclusion of the Stone of Destiny Arc. I'm eager to see Coldfire and Coldstone in action.
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 11:47:07 pm EST from 68.55.57.46

Spideyforever: You're comparing hating a fictional character to being racist? That's... pretty sad.
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 10:42:52 pm EST from 74.213.121.140

Yeah skip me cause I'm a Carnage fan. That's like skipping someone's question and comment because they're black. In other words it's like being racist. I may get ticked and swear like a lot of people do but I don't purposely skip questions because of they're content, length, or because of who posted it. Real mature guys.
spideyforever
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 10:18:19 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

I believe Greg has commented that Gargoyles will end immediatly before Gargoyles: 2198. Meaning the series will end around that time, just as Dark Ages will end (and Gargoyles began) in 994. And we know Goliath doesn't survive until 2198, so we know the series won't end with his death.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 8:34:31 pm EST from 70.230.145.71

Brook: I never imagined seeing Katherine, Tom, or the Magus in the old years when I first some them in Awakening. Especially Tom. Granted, I never thought we'd see them again either, but following the end of Avalon, Part I, I'd new we'd be seeing the Princess and the Magus again.

GregB: Count me too as someone who enjoyed reading "Rhapsody." While Greg Weisman's future account of 2156 may fall into place differently, I do beleive you remained essentially true to his characters. Especially like Thailog's little 'contribution.'

Your last post got me thinking about Brooklyn post-TimeDancing. When Brooklyn returns home, he will eventually interact with Demona, in some story to follow. That being the case, I wonder how restrained Brooklyn is going to be when he sees someone he fought alongside with in 2198.

After 40 years of timetraveling, I imagine he's probably learned that Time is immutable, so I doubt any conversation with Demona (or even Macbeth, for that matter) would be an attempt to change what he's already seen. Still, I'm curious what the interaction will be like.
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 8:33:14 pm EST from 157.242.212.180

"First of all, only Greg Weisman is sure when Goliath dies. Not you. Not I."

Yes. I'm still sure before he turns 90/45. It is nothing that is a fact, I know - I'm just kinda sure, on the inside... It is like how I say that I'm sure that Riddler turns up for Batman 3 or that Jack will die in the ending of LOST - I'm just sure it will happen. This of course does not indicate that it WILL happen, but it is my conception of the story.

"And as for Brooklyn, he is going to age thanks to "TimeDancer" and unless he gets killed between now and then, he will be an elder."

I know that too - but as I stated before, I just can't imagine SEEING him as an elder - it is not that I say he WILL not be an elder - I just cannot SEE him as one.

This probably has to do with my thought of GARGOYLES ending shortly after Goliaths death. Like any show (XFiles, Buffy) it just has to end one day. To me, the perfect end would be shortly after Goliaths death, with us still witnessing the grief and aftermath of his death.

After that, 2198.

"Just, FYI, characters age. People age. That is a reality, and in spite of all the gargoyles and the magic and animated statues and all that, I had to be honest, I had to be real. The Praying Gargoyle takes sixty years to regenerate, I did not make that up. That is how old these characters will be sixty years after Hunter's Moon.

If I de-aged them in the interest of "fan service," then I would be a dishonest hack. I'm sorry, but I don't think Oil of Olay is ever going to get that good."

Sure - I stil somehow can't really "see" this as an EP. I can't really see an 88 year old Elisa, for example. You can age her, and she will age - but in my head, I just cannot wrap my thoughts around it. Probably also because I know of the tim span between 1996 and, uh, 2056. There is a LOT going on, and I guess a LOT will happen to the characters. Some will die, others might leave the clan, arcarcarc etc. Therefore, I do not have a fixed image of these guys.

Just as an example - what would happen if 2012 Lex would be killed? The characters might be altered so much, that it might be difficult for us to recognise them fro their former self. Therefore, it is impossible for me to wrap my thoughts around a timespan THAT long.

Imagine asking me 1969 what a potential beatles reunion record in 2009 would sound like - and I couldn't wrap my head around it, for there are so many styles inbetween (Electronic music, Punk, Krautrock etc.) and so many alterations to the members (John Lennon being shot), that it is impossible to imagine what it could be like.
I also would like to add that this is pretty much my prble with TIMEDANCER from my point of view (I have got now, before reding the comics): Brooklyn ages 40 years. 40 YEARS!! I cannot possibly imagine how many things he loses, how much his character is altered, and how he reacts to things happening in 1998 after 40 YEARS OF TIMEDANCING!! This is just a massive amount of time, and a masive amount of action taking place.

To me, right now, I'm less concerned about how Katana will look like - but more what a person Brooklyn will be on the inside.
Brook
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 8:08:51 pm EST from 84.191.211.44

PURPLEGOLDFISH :: FANFIC TYPE SPOILERS::

Believe me, I gave Angela and Elisa's reactions to Demona here a lot of thought, and I do believe they are angry at her. But there is a difference between anger and hate. And that that comes down to is that I think Demona would be more comfortable being hated than being pitied. She'd prefer it, and as such neither one of them are going to give it to her. Hate is an emotion that Demona is very much at home with. Pity, not so much.

But, Angela's goodbye there at the end was very final. In my mind, as far as this story goes, she won't be visiting Demona again. She wants her well treated, well taken care of, and unable to endanger anyone else. But that's where it ends. Brooklyn might visit her, since he fought alongside her in 2198 and no longer holds any anger towards her. But, I doubt anyone else will.

Brook> You had me until...

"I just can't see the Gargoyles at that age... I'm sure Goliath dies before turning 45 (human years). Brooklyn as an elder... can't imagine it somehow..."

First of all, only Greg Weisman is sure when Goliath dies. Not you. Not I. And as for Brooklyn, he is going to age thanks to "TimeDancer" and unless he gets killed between now and then, he will be an elder.

Just, FYI, characters age. People age. That is a reality, and in spite of all the gargoyles and the magic and animated statues and all that, I had to be honest, I had to be real. The Praying Gargoyle takes sixty years to regenerate, I did not make that up. That is how old these characters will be sixty years after Hunter's Moon.

If I de-aged them in the interest of "fan service," then I would be a dishonest hack. I'm sorry, but I don't think Oil of Olay is ever going to get that good.

*** END SPOILERS ***
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 7:48:01 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Okay, maybe I used a poor choice of words. My logic is that in Greg B's story, he seems to be using the idea that Brooklyn's timedancing happened, which explains his age.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Though I've never understood how God could expect his creatures to pick the one true religion by faith - it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe." -Jubal Harshaw ("Stranger In a Strange Land")
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 7:37:57 pm EST from 71.62.136.51

Brook: As far as Brooklyn is concerned, if the teaser we got for Issue #10 is any indication, he's probably going to go Timedancing, which probably means he'll be gone for forty years. Meaning he'll be pushing sixty by 2056. It makes sense to me.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Though I've never understood how God could expect his creatures to pick the one true religion by faith - it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe." -Jubal Harshaw ("Stranger In a Strange Land")
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 7:31:26 pm EST from 71.62.136.51

SO, one more thing - what would you say to these things being/being altered in a feauture film??

- No Pack, Fox being in it though (possibly a criminal... change that to a criminal... a kickass criminal...)

- No Derreck. No Mutants. (No Sevarius... now)

- No Coldsttone (impossible, me thinks)

- Elisa NOT being shot by Broadway

- No Macbeth (at least for now)

What do you think?

I have my own image in my head and on paper - but what would you leave out/alter??
Remember: 1 film.
And please, no "Oh, i'd leave Awakening as it is and just re-film it!" or "I'd never do it, cause I think a film would suck." - I want to read some realistic thoughts on this.
Brook
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 7:13:58 pm EST from 84.191.211.44

@ Greg B: I just skipped over the fanfic. I say SKIPPED cause I did, and so, my criticism is pretty superficial. But I thought that the writing could be improved quite a bit. Many times, I stumbled over "Brooklyn said/Goliath said/Demona said". Many things are expositional, and many passages read like a treatment for an EP.

Me in particular, it wasn't my cup of tea, because I just can't see the Gargoyles at that age... I'm sure Goliath dies before turning 45 (human years). Brooklyn as an elder... can't imagine it somehow...

To me, it felt like a summary for something bigger. I can see your images - just try to describe them a bit more like how the characters see the situations, not how a camera lense sees them.

THE SCRIPT: SOOOOOOOOO, a quick update on this one - I'm writing on the treatment (FANFIC; once again!! I WON'T SELL OR DO THIS!! I just do this because I've got free time and do it for myself), and it looks like it is going to be a mixture of AWAKENING and REAWAKENING. I'm currently thinking about tying other scenarios of S1 into it... but I'm not too sure... Probably some cameos a la Victor Zarsz in BATMAN BEGINS... but it looks like some fun. :)
Brook
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 7:02:30 pm EST from 84.191.211.44

GregB: You're welcome. It's very close to what I imagine what the canon would be, so that makes it that much more heart rendering.

Spoilers:

I had that exact thought with the quarryhammer being iconic and it would be that much more apparent to the spectators how Goliath had sacrificed for them. At first I was kind of annoyed how Angela and Elisa weren't angry at Demona, but thinking about it, I actually feel the same way-more pity than hatred. It takes some great writing skills to make me NOT hate the character responsible for bashing in the head of my favorite character.

Spoilers End
Purplegoldfish
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 6:31:54 pm EST from 64.148.56.90

Demonskrye> ::FANFIC TYPE SPOILERS::

I'll leave that all up to the readers' imagination. I have a clear idea of what it looked like, but, contrary to what Anonymous said before, I did not want unnecessary gore. So, I kept it purposely vague.

But considering Demona's actions, as well as the nature of the weapon she used, I think it's easy to guess.

I suppose I could have had her kill him in some other manner, but I just loved the irony. In a way, for me, it symbolized just how low she had sunk. She used a weapon that was crafted for no other purpose than to destroy her kind. It's kind of like how a mace was once her weapon of choice, and taking that notion to it's logical conclusion.

Had to do it. The imagery just seemed too powerful for me not to use.

*** END SPOILERS ***
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 5:32:24 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Sorry about the double post but I also like Spectacular Spider-Man. I'm pretty sure Tombstone is the show's Kingpin. If they could get the rights they could have him come to power in the 3rd season after the gang war. Too bad Roscoe Lee Browe(from the 90's series) is gone RIP. As for Carnage he should be introduced later (we need lots of Venom before him). Anyway he should threaten to kill but get stopped by Spidey(it's why he had a hard time killing Spidey's family in the comics). Can we have several people get injured on kids shows. He should be voiced by Robert Englund(already does Vulture because I've always saw his personality similar to one of my favorite horror icons Freddy Krueger. What do you think about all this?

P.S. This is my last post about Carnage except for responses. I don't have an obsession with Carnage, I have a life thank you.
spideyforever
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 5:25:16 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

spideyforever - I like The Brave and the Bold, but the team-up concept almost forces them to place novelty ahead of story. I personally consider the story to be the most important part of a cartoon. TSS-M's current focus is on its existing cast of characters. Greg has said he'll do the occasional team-up episode eventually, but only if it aids in telling Parker's story. I think this is the way it should be. JLU had a successful team-up formula because they spent a couple seasons establishing the principle characters before bringing the DCU into the series.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 5:20:10 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

Greg B> ***FANFIC TYPE SPOILERS***

To be honest, I was kind of wondering if Goliath's head was anything more than a bloody smear by the time Demona was done. Not that your description was overly graphic, but I can't imagine that the results of her repeatedly smasking a Quarrymen hammer into Goliath's skull wouldn't be pretty messy.

***END SPOILERS***
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 5:13:30 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Yes, I do realize. I am a very long time fan of the character.

As for my thoughts:

<<Spider-Man 4>>

Hated Spidey 3. Not looking forward to a fourth. Get Dunst out of there, which might happen as I doubt she wants to be there anyway.

<<Ultimate Alliance 2>>

Looking forward to it.

<<and the Venom spin-off?>>

For the love of god, no. Besides, I am pretty sure we saw Eddie Brock get disintegrated, complete with a skeleton.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 5:13:09 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

I didn't say anytime soon just an idea. I just thought Marvel should fight back against DC and make their own Team UP show. I didn't think about the rights issue.

P.S. You do realize Marvel Team Up was the name of a comic series where Spidey was the main character right? BTW what are you thoughts on Spider-Man 4, Ultimate Alliance 2, and the Venom spin-off?
spideyforever
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 5:07:16 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

Peter LeBrun> I don't think they should, because that would require Sony losing the rights to produce "The Spectacular Spider-Man" and I would much rather see more episodes of "Spectacular" than an entirely new show.

The reason why we aren't seeing team-ups on "Spectacular" is because of licensing and rights issues with different characters. It's why the show doesn't have Kingpin. But, Tombstone has been so great that I don't miss Kingpin.

And the Spider-Man corner of the Marvel Universe is so rich, I don't think Spidey teaming up with Wolverine would really enrich the show.

Nope, I like the current format, and I am hoping, and crossing my fingers that we get a lot more of it.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 3:40:15 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Once again since non one responded who thinks Marvel should make a Marvel Team-Up cartoon where Spidey( the main character in the comic so don't criticize why I said him ) teams up with different people from the Marvel Universe? I got the idea from Batman the Brave and the Bold.
spideyforever
I
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 2:34:40 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

"Getting good reviews on Fanfiction is the norm, not the exception. You can post absolute nonsense there and get good reviews. > Anonymous"

Oh I most defnitely disagree. I have seen critical reviews of fanfiction and I myself have written reviews suggesting changes that could be most (mostly when I think a character has been written completely out-of-character). I always leave honest reviews. True, some people post positive reviews for nonsense but its a better reader who takes the time to give reasons of why they enjoyed the story and how they think it could be improved upon.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 12:37:34 pm EST from 209.243.38.9

DENIS> <<Do you plan a sequel, Greg? I sure hope so!>>

Nope, I don't. I think the story stands on it's own and no sequel is required.

Unlike Hollywood, I don't like to "kill the golden goose." ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 11:36:42 am EST from 24.205.39.101

this fanfiction is a pure jewel!
And very respectful of canon, to boot!

I've read it during lunchtime, and I felt moisty eyed at several points.
Do you plan a sequel, Greg? I sure hope so!
Denis - [quinceyfordersl at gmail dot com]
He's fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 11:34:15 am EST from 87.65.155.37

Anonymous> <<Getting good reviews on Fanfiction is the norm, not the exception. You can post absolute nonsense there and get good reviews.>>

This, I agree with. My e-mailed reviews have meant a lot more as far as I'm concerned.

<<I'd have suggested against a communication device called Bluetooth, it sounds contemporary and not like something likely to be used fifty years in the future.>>

Well, we weren't using communication devices called telephones fifty years ago. But, do please look into your crystal ball and tell me what we will be using. ;)

*** Spoilers ***

<<I also found the description of Goliath's death unnecessarily gory. >>

Food, shelter and oxygen are necessary. Everything else is unnecessary. And, honestly, I see some detail, but no gore.

It's not like I added a dripping eyeball to the end of the hammer, or that she licked the blood from her hands.

*** End Spoilers ***

Though, while I appreciate the review, I'd appreciate it a hell of a lot more if you signed your name to it (even a net handle) instead of just 'Anonymous.'
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." -Goliath
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 11:28:05 am EST from 24.205.39.101

Getting good reviews on Fanfiction is the norm, not the exception. You can post absolute nonsense there and get good reviews.

I'd have suggested against a communication device called Bluetooth, it sounds contemporary and not like something likely to be used fifty years in the future. I also found the description of Goliath's death unnecessarily gory.
Otherwise it was an interesting read.
Anonymous
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 6:30:14 am EST from 88.130.176.176

for those who may not have been here for this, greg w. was just in here a couple of weeks ago to add his 2 cents on a debate. im pretty new myself so im not sure how often or NOT often his visits usually are, but i think it's safe to say he's not ignoring us. if the comics release dates had come up in the conversation he joined, im sure he would have said something then.
now i guess we just gotta wait till he looks back in and sees us going crazy with questions :-)
sTiTcH
posted @ Wed, Jan 28, 2009 4:08:34 am EST from 64.12.117.134

Greg Bishansky> Impressive fanfic. Most impressive.
The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Tony Tini
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 11:56:57 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

It's said that if you stand in front of a mirror and say "Greg Weisman" three times, he will appear and leave a comment.

The way I look at it is the sooner the trades come out, the sooner it's over.
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 10:47:29 pm EST from 69.112.108.43

Demonskrye > Okay, thanks for clearing that up. Its still frustrating to the point of driving me crazy but at least they have some reason for it (even if I, a humble fan, think its a fairly BS reason). Oh well. Nothing to do but wait and suffer like all fans must when the fate of their fandom hangs in the balance.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 7:12:23 pm EST from 192.146.226.148

Just a fresh question:

Which are your top 5 post-1980 BATMAN villains, and why??
Brook
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 7:12:17 pm EST from 84.191.189.195

BISHANSKY - You're welcome. I've noticed that the reviews it's received at FanFiction.Net so far have been favorable ones.
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 6:57:14 pm EST from 4.244.209.120

Litwolf> There is a difference between typical Hollywood gossip and someone involved in a negotiation talking about what's happening. You'll hear all kinds of rumors and gossip and overheard snippets getting thrown around by reporters whose job is to try to figure out what the big guys are up to. The official word from the actors and studios and other other people in the know is frequently "no comment." Sure, sometimes they're happy to hint at or outright confirm a sequel to a popular film or a big star signing on to the project. But a lot of the time, they're just as happy to keep their collective mouth shut, and with good reason.

Let's say that Warner Brothers was pursuing Disney about doing a live-action "Gargoyles" film. (This is one of those unlikely examples I sometimes use.) More than likely, reporters are going to get wind of the discussions and make them known to the public. But if someone from Warner Brothers goes on record saying "We're in talks with Disney and things a re looking very good" or even "It's pretty near a done deal," Disney will likely be howling and someone is probably going to get fired. Why? Largely because making that statement in an official capacity basically says to any other studio who might be thinking about talking with Disney about doing the "Gargoyles" movie "Go away. It's as good as sold to WB." Which means that other studios that could potentially offer Disney more money for the rights to do a "Gargoyles" film aren't even going to bother to make a bid.

A good friend of mine got severely chewed out over a scenario very much like this. The stakes weren't as high as a Hollywood blockbuster and in his case, it was an honest mistake, but the ink wasn't dry on the contract yet and he was told in no uncertain terms what a big potential problem he had caused.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 5:14:46 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Todd> Thank you for posting the link to "Rhapsody" in here, I appreciate it.

Grey Wolf and PGF, thank you for the comments. Much appreciated. PGF, you are the third person to tell me that it made them cry. That is beyond flattering. Thank you.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 3:49:35 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

Speaking of waiting If there are any Star Wars fans on here don't forget how long it took for The Force Unleashed to come out. Also Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 comes out this Christmas or New Year's and 09 just started which sucks. It's even worse that Australia gets it in March. I'd go there and get their version but then Spidey might be all "MY SPIDER SENSE IS TINGLING MATE" or Thing might be all "IT'S CLOBBERIN TIME MATE "or Human Torch "Flame On Mate" even Hulk might say "Hulk Smash Mate". Anyway it's too risky. If you want decent voices you'll have to wait for the American version. I don't want any Australian voices in it after I heard Wolverine's voice in Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends. On a later note does anybody else think they should make a Marvel Team Up show based on the comics where ol' Spidey teams up with various heroes from the Marvel Universe. I got this idea because of Batman the Brave and the Bold.
spideyforever
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 3:38:21 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

It's all good guys. Don't fret. LOST fans only had to wait a mere 8 months from the end of Season 4 to the beginning of Season 5. We'll show those LOST fans what waiting is really like!
Anthony Tini
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 3:09:17 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Greg B > I understand Greg W not saying anything to us unless he was the given the okay. I knew an author who (just recently) was shown the book cover for one of her books-to-be-released by the artist before the artist was given the 'okay' on their cover art. The author mentioned to her editor how much she liked the cover and both her and the artist got scolded for having 'too much interaction'. So that part I understand.

But bad buisness to talk about possible deals? I see it all the time with movies and other books. Possible sequels, possible movement to a new company, possible dropping of people involved on the project. All that kind of stuff. Thats all gossip of Hollywood. And we were even told that SLG planned to talk to Disney in a year about more Gargoyles. So I dont see why they wouldnt be able to tell us that there were talks going on and whether the talks had any potential to either stop the Gargoyles we're already waiting on or give us new Gargoyles. Im sorry but I honestly dont see any sense in with-holding that info from the people who care about Gargoyles and want to spend their money on buying the new comics.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 2:53:33 pm EST from 209.243.38.9

Here is the thing. It is bad business to go public with information when business is being discussed. If something was going on that we needed to know, and Greg was at liberty to discuss it, he would do so when he had the chance.

But Greg is also a professional. And he tends to not announce things until he is given the go ahead.

And that is as it should be.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 2:33:55 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

I apologize if I sounded a bit whiney before and I am not trying to say Greg W doesnt care about us or has forgotten us or anything like that. I do understand we are not his main priority and he has a life and all that stuff. Im sorry for before.

However, I completely agree with Rebel. Its not that there is no information to give us; its that they chose not to for whatever the reason. If production of the books has slowed because they are in negotiations to get more Gargoyle single issues, is it such a big deal to tell us that? Or, if something has gone wrong (slow printing, missing artwork, artists falling into black holes), I would also like this information so we can at least know that something has gone wrong and there is a reason behind the delay.

That they didnt tell us that the Jan date was impossible and now the earliest would be May; I see absolutly no reason not to tell us this. I would rather be told here and now that the tradebooks are not gonna be released until the end of 2009 than go on for four more months with no information. Its frustrating beyond belief and, from where we stand, there is no reason to keep us in the dark.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 2:30:17 pm EST from 209.243.38.9

In situations like this, I think the best thing that can be done for the fans is at least tell them what is going on. Personally, I would rather hear terrible news than hear NO news and just go on wondering what the hell is going on. Even if the news is the worst possible news (like, the TPBs aren't coming out period and Gargoyles is over forever...just an example) I would still rather hear it as soon as possible than continue to wonder and speculate. Even if the news is bad, but not dire, I would still rather be temporarily bummed than continue wondering. Uncertainty is worse than bad news, IMO.

There is lots of information that could be told to us. It's not an issue of "when they know something, they'll tell us". There are definitely people who know something and could tell us something; they're just not doing it. I would rather the people in-the-know be totally forthcoming with us than try to protect us from bad news or conceal from us what is going on.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 2:03:29 pm EST from 199.80.70.81

Our Lotto 649 was $43 Million on Saturday. I didn't win, but had I, I might have bought the liscence for a few more issues. (A Fandom Donation?) It was a pipe dream, of course... but I like all of you want more issues, too.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 12:42:22 pm EST from 75.156.190.146

I hope they are not negotiating about single issues.
Single issues aren't worth their price. It's better to get one complete story per year or longer, than piddle little morsels every few months.

Getting out the trade paperback and then doing real graphic novels would be better, with them you at least have something substantial in your hands.
Not to mention that they could slow the story down, the comic so far felt rather rushed.

I'm assuredly not trying to hunt down another single issue and will wait for someting thsat can be easily bought in bookstores or Amazon.
Anonymous
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 12:21:34 pm EST from 89.246.196.97

Litwolf> While I'm also frustrated at the lack of information that we have on the status of the trades, I wouldn't be too surprised or event disappointed if we didn't get a full account of what's going on right away. I've seen cases before where you have a company that makes a product and fans of said product and a period of time where not much information on the status of the product is getting to the fans. There's a small independent toy company (I hesitate to even use the word "company" as it's essentially four guys) that produces high quality action figures. A while back, some of their figures were running way behind schedule and the fans weren't hearing anything about what was going on. As it turns out, production had ground to a halt when the overseas factory producing the figures shut down and the molds for the figures were stuck in a warehouse somewhere. Eventually, the company was able to recover their molds and get production started up again at a new factory, which was when they made a statement about the status of the figures. They had decided it was better to wait until the situation was somehow resolved before saying anything rather than to give the bad news as it happened and bum everyone out (as well as potentially decrease interest in the product.)

If SLG is talking with Disney right now, it may well mean that they won't have anything to report on the trades until the negotiations come to a close. Even something as simple as "The talks with Disney are going really well right now" could be unwise if it gets our hopes up and we either expect more than ends up happening or get even more disappointed if the negotiations take a turn for the worse. From situations I've observed in the past, it's generally in the best interests of anyone and everyone involved in a negotiation not to make any public statements until the inks is dry.

Greg W has been generally helpful on keeping us updated on the status of the comic, and if he knows anything more than we do, I'm sure he'll tell us. Personally, all I want to know is how far along the trades are in production (pencils, inks, lettering, colors, final touches, all set to go, or whatever), what exactly SLG still needs to work out with Disney, and when and why the dates for the trades for the trades slipped from January to May and June and now probably later. That said, I understand that Greg has other priorities and answering our questions earns him no money and probably isn't all that high on his list of things to do. I'm sure he'll tell us what he knows when he has time and feels he has something worthwhile to tell us.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 12:10:11 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Litwolf> "And where is Greg W? Im a little disheartened and disappointed that he hasnt checked in with us and given us an update. I know its not required of him or anything like that but an update a month from him or SLG or Disney wouldnt hurt anyone."

Jeez, cut the man some slack. He's got a career, a wife, two kids and a major tv show to take care of. I'm sure he'll update us as soon as he can.

In the meantime he's got way more important things to to then baby sit a bunch of internet nerds. Heck the way I hear it the man hardly gets two or three hours of sleep a night these days.
Algernon - [padraig dot j dot griffin at nuim dot ie]
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 11:55:46 am EST from 149.157.1.180

Yeah, SLG's phrase "unfortunately the former release dates of May and June are probably not going to hold" is pretty funny (in a masochistic kind of way). No one keeps closer tabs on publicly available information on new Gargoyles releases than this comment room. If anyone mentioned a new release date, we'd know about it. Yet SLG tries to pretend that May and June are 'the former release dates' that everyone already knows about.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 11:39:54 am EST from 128.101.32.234

Litwolf> "Well, this new about the tradepaperbacks is just downright depressing, especially since no one bothered to tell us fans about the pushed back release date to May/June. Honestly, I dont mind the delays and waiting. As someone said before, it means we get a drawn out end (though, at this point, Im being pushed to the limit of my patience)."

I side with you there.

As far as Greg W. goes, I'm a little disheartened about the lack of feedback myself, but he's most likely just too busy, with his career and his family, to check in here all that much. That's my guess. Maybe he thinks we'd appreciate the (eventual) release more if we're kept in the dark. Who knows?

Brook> Sounds cool. I'll keep a patient eye out for said link. And you're right. It IS difficult to write a proper screenplay. I know from experience.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 11:24:19 am EST from 69.223.182.135

@ LIT: PErsonally, and this is just me, I guess that they are currently in negotiations about a new license, which would also guarantee single issues of the remaining EPs.

This way, all would have to be hush-hush, and it might take for the single issues to get approaved til May.

Cause really, May/June as a release date is INSANE!! 9 was done by October, wasn't it??
Brook
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 11:22:13 am EST from 84.191.191.143

Well, this new about the tradepaperbacks is just downright depressing, especially since no one bothered to tell us fans about the pushed back release date to May/June. Honestly, I dont mind the delays and waiting. As someone said before, it means we get a drawn out end (though, at this point, Im being pushed to the limit of my patience).

What is driving me crazy is why the heck SLG and Disney are being so darn secretive about the status of the books! Its all shrouded in mystery! We dont know whether the paperbacks are completely finished and SLG and Disney are just finishing up some paper work or if the art for all the comics got eaten by a polar bear and now everything has to be redone. Thats all I want right now. I want some honesty as to the status of the comics and their release dates. I have favorite authors who update their site everyday with how many words they have written in their current draft. But we cant even get an honest answer for whether the art work is done or not.

And where is Greg W? Im a little disheartened and disappointed that he hasnt checked in with us and given us an update. I know its not required of him or anything like that but an update a month from him or SLG or Disney wouldnt hurt anyone.

Im starting to get even more frustrated than when Nick pushed back the release date of Avatar season three by like seven months! At least they were honest with us fans and told us what was going on.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 11:14:03 am EST from 209.243.38.9

*Sigh* Well I'm still holding my breath for some good news.
Purplegoldfish
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 11:13:55 am EST from 64.148.56.90

@ KingCobra: I'm still in the beginning stages, ya know. ;) I've not really got loads of time (being a journalist AND trying to pull a shortfilm together AND having a personal life is kind of a lot), so I guess it will take some to finish, but if it is, I'll upp it somehwere and drop you guys a link to read it. :)

Writing an entire screenplay in english is also not as easy as I thought. I mean I speak and write fluid english, but when it comes to a screenplay, dscriptions of actions and places, it can be kinda hard...

I decided to start after we discussed a potential GARGfilm on here, with me arguing that a film that would be based loosely on AWAKENING, but as kind of an "updated" version would be brilliant, and loads of people arguing against it... I still wonder why we dropped that discussion alltogether.
Brook
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 9:31:00 am EST from 84.191.191.143

PurpleGoldfish> Since i probably caused the confusion, let me see if I can clear it up.

Vado made a post on the SLG blog about Clan Building Volume 2 and the Bad Guys trade, quoted several posts down by Landon. He says that "work continues on the remainder of the story" and SLG does still plan to release it. He goes on to say that they are "still working out the licensing with Disney" and that because of this, "the former release dates of May and June are probably not going to hold."

What this says for certain is that the trades are still being worked on and are still intended for release and that the earliest we would probably see them is May and June, but that is sounding unlikely. Anything beyond that is people's own speculation.

The big question is where these supposedly former May and June release dates came from, since the last thing anyone here had read was that we would be seeing the trades sometime this month, and we're probably the people with the most vested interest in keeping track of information like that.

"Work continues" is a very vague phrase, which could mean anything from "the books are done and we just need to sort things out with Disney" to "the artwork is still being finished."

The fact that DLG is still working out the licensing with Disney is what has me concerned personally. My impression prior to this was that, even though the license to produce new single issue comics has expired, SLG was free to publish trades collecting the single issues, plus the remainder of each story arc as "bonus material." So why are SLG and Disney apparently back at the negotiating table? We don't know. All we can do is speculate. Maybe there's a time frame in which SLG has to publish the trades of the Disney material like there was for the single issues and once that's up, SLG can't put out the trades anymore. Maybe Disney got a look at the trades and said "You are clearly just using this "bonus material" as a way to produce additional comics after your license has expired. The Clan Building volume has more "bonus material" than actual previously published comics. That's not how the license is set up. If you want to make new 'Gargoyles' comics, you have to renew the license." A few other people have speculated that maybe something good is happening, like SLG approaching Disney about a new license for more "Gargoyles" comics. Last we heard, Vado's plan was to wait a year or so before coming back at Disney with a new offer, but last we heard the trades were going to be out now, so who knows? Maybe it's none of these scenarios, but something completely different.

So that's what's up. We know very little and the new information we have seems to have raised more questions than it answers. I hope that Greg W or someone else in the know can help to shed some light on what is going on with the trades and possibly the future of the comic. But until then, I doubt anything can stop people from speculating.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 8:49:18 am EST from 146.115.115.33

Brook> I'd be interested in reading that. I love reading stuff in a screenplay format.

Care to send it my way? :)
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 8:46:27 am EST from 69.223.182.135

Just to get the information out (cause everybody is really, REALLY anticipating Greg Ws response, who, I'm sure, is on a scheduled vacation ;) ), I wanted to announce that I'm loosely writing on a Dark-(K)Night-y screenplay of GARGOYLES, mainly for myself. Of course, thise is totally insane - but I see how far I can push it. ;) All fanfic of course.
Brook
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 8:22:05 am EST from 84.191.191.143

Any moment now we're likely to start seeing conspiracy theories here again about Disney wanting to kill "Gargoyles" once and for all.

I encountered a similar situation last year, when one of my favorite webcomics, "Gunnerkrigg Court", was to be brought out in book form. It was originally due to be published in May 2008, but the publishers were going through a big administrative change, and so it wound up getting repeatedly delayed (to the dismay of Tom Siddell, who writes and draws it), until at last it was published at the end of December 2008. Though at least it got published (I even bought my copy last week, and I highly recommend it; don't let the fact that it's about a young orphaned child with remarkable abilities at a weird British boarding school scare you off - the tone and atmosphere is extremely different from that of Harry Potter).

Yes, the Quarrymen of "The Goliath Chronicles" are indeed cardboard villains (I've commented before on how they went overnight from frightened citizens to professional bad guys); I don't think that anything would make sense of their motivations other than their being just plain crazy.

I mentioned the release of Bishansky's fanfic "Rhapsody" here yesterday, and it handles the Quarrymen, I think, much better than the "Goliath Chronicles" did. In particular

* SPOILERS FOLLOW *

Demona, as part of her big scheme in the story, seizes a church - she needs it for the holy ground on which to activate the Praying Gargoyle for her final attempt to use it to wipe out the human race - and has her mercenaries holding the worshippers there prisoner so that they can't interfere. The Quarrymen, upon discovering Demona's scheme, break into the place, defeat the mercenaries, and rescue their captives - thereby being hailed by a lot of the New York citizenry as heroes.

* SPOILERS END *
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 7:50:45 am EST from 4.244.209.182

TPB> May or June? What the hell is this? What happened to its' supposed January release?

about Spideyforever> I agree with David. Let's just let it drop.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 7:27:20 am EST from 69.223.182.135

"Vengeance begets nothing but a vicious cycle of further vengeance." Spideyforever apologized. It's time to let it go.
David - [souiofangelus at aol dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 5:09:58 am EST from 64.12.117.134

Wait,what's going on with volume two now? Now it's not gauranteed a realease?? I know that bitching and moaning and blaming doesn't do squat, but I'm really starting to hate Disney.

And is Vado making stuff up or what? May/June? The last we heard was January! I figured we wouldn't be getting the trade this month but this news is really disappointing.

And damn it GregB, your story made me cry lol. Very nicely written.
Purplegoldfish
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 2:50:42 am EST from 64.148.56.90

do you think its possible that when confirming the allowence for clan building vol.2 and bad guys, they asked for MORE and now the whole things screwed up?
(more being a contract to write more gargoyles)

as much as i'd like to see more gargs (and dvd's), i really hope thats not what happened. at this point i'll take whatever disney will give WITHOUT the standard licencing bitchfit.
sTiTcH
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 2:41:26 am EST from 64.12.117.134

Can we get a comment from Greg Weisman on the Comic? I thought they were allowed to release the TPB's... why negotiate?
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Tue, Jan 27, 2009 12:49:51 am EST from 75.156.190.146

Algernon> Honestly, I spent most of TGC waiting for Castaway to break out the weather controling machine.

Or a Christmas Special in which he tries to ruin Christmas if the Gargoyles refuse to surrender.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 11:21:48 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

Sorry for the double post. I meant figure of speech. Nice sarcasm by the way.
spideyforever
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 11:08:16 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

haha You know it was just a figure Patrick
spideyforever
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 11:06:12 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

Actually, many people are able to engage in debate without turning green and smashing everything.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 10:33:57 pm EST from 66.61.27.56

People lose control when the get really pissed so I just went Hulk on y'all.

P.S. I'm mot southern just like to talk that way.
spideyforever
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 9:12:18 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

I like smart and cunning characters too by the way(Green Goblin and Doc Ock especially) but I like Venom and Carnage pretty much because I grew up in their golden age. Carnage disapppeared in the 2000's and eventually died but Venom stayed. However since Spider-Man 3 I highly question their future in the Cinema because Raimi doesn't like Venom and Carnage either which is he didn't do any effort on Venom's voice. We'll have to see about Carnage. I think he'll be good if they dark knight him up like they did with Joker. Unfortunately that's impossible because Warner Bros. and Marvel don't mix and I really want to see the direction Chris Nolan would take ol' Spidey in. They might even make a Spin-off about Venom fighting Carnage( Venom=protagonist Carnage=antagonist no Spidey included) which sounds cool but I'm not too sure about.
spideyforever
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 9:08:49 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

Peter> I would hope they wouldn't be bashing us personally and instead be debating the merits they perceive in those characters. You know, mature conversation.

The thing is, we're talking about fictional characters. You're attacking real people. There is a difference.

I know plenty of people who like Carnage who would not have resorted to that.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 8:53:10 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

sorry Greg I was pissed and wanted to fight back. Lucky for you guys I'm probably the only Venom and Carnage fan on this site. If there were more you'd probably be getting a lot more bashing trust me.
spideyforever
peter lebrun
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 8:50:33 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

You know what new information means! New speculation!

"Talks with Disney" is good if it means they're negotiating a new contract for future graphic novels. This new contract could theoretically cover the upcoming TPBs as well. "Talks with Disney" is bad if Disney interprets 'bonus material' differently than SLG and doesn't want to approve any new issues. I certainly hope for the former because it means more volumes are to follow. My only point is that based on Greg's updates last year, SLG-Disney negotiations are unexpected at this time.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 7:23:22 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

Landon: I'm going to remain positive and be happy that we at least heard something regarding the comic.

Plus, it appears that they've continued to be in talks with Disney, so that's something to be hopefull for. (full series, mini-series, one-shot TPBs, what-have-you, colored or black-and-white, I'll take anything)
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 6:29:40 pm EST from 157.242.220.116

I'm pretty puzzled about this myself. I don't recall hearing anything about May and June either, and now it even seems like that isn't going to pan out?

Greg W, can you offer any clarification? I'm starting to worry, particularly since Dan Vado mentions they're still "working out the licensing" with Disney. Just so we're prepared, is there any possibility that licensing issues could prevent the trades from being released at all?
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 6:29:09 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

This is the first I've heard about release dates as late as May and June - and now it appears it's going to be even later than that. Pity.
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 6:25:50 pm EST from 4.245.22.86

hey are you going to be my friend ok I'm good not bad ok
joshua - [jrk456 at yahoo dot com]
Joshua
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 5:18:54 pm EST from 68.255.61.219

A new Century, a new Garg Comic....
Brook
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 4:46:40 pm EST from 84.191.245.134

Gargoyles news from http://slg-news.livejournal.com/ (the editor-in-chief of SLG, presumably):

"Hi, folks! I've been getting a lot of questions lately about the release of Gargoyles Volume 2 and the collection of Bad Guys understandably so, since you've all been left hanging! What I can tell you now is that work continues on the remainder of the story, and we still plan to release it. However, we are still working out the licensing with Disney, so unfortunately the former release dates of May and June are probably not going to hold. I'll let you know as soon as we can be sure of a firm date. Sorry for the wait, and thanks for your patience!"

Ummm, *former* release dates of May and June? Has anyone ever heard those dates? And does this mean we'll have to wait until July or later? :(
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 4:18:03 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

Greg B> I think Carnage would have been more fondly remembered if he had been killed off after his first or second apperence. He was genuinly creepy in his first story arc but every subsequent story just gave us more of the same. As a creepy one shot villain he works, as a recurring antagonist he's a dramatic dead end.
Algernon
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 3:12:40 pm EST from 149.157.1.180

Peter> What you should have done was tell us why you like Carnage and why you disagree with us. Not tell us to shut up and yell things like "fuck you" or anything like that. If you were born in 1990, you're an adult now, and the rest of us were all talking like adults.

I was born in 1981, so I wasn't even a teenager yet when Carnage debuted. Or Venom. I was in the target audience at the time, but sorry, for various reasons, those characters didn't do it for me.

I prefer my villains to be sharp, intelligent and scheming. That's why I like Xanatos. That's why I like Demona. That's why I like Thailog. That's why I like Norman Osborn and Doc Ock.

A killer who kills just for the sake of it holds no interest for me. What's his motivation? What drives him? Why? The problem is, as Algernon pointed out, every single Carnage story is the same, at least as I see it. He is the summer blockbuster of Spider-Man movies. Fun the first time, but the sequels kept getting worse and worse.

It doesn't help that he was introduced via an editorial mandate to make Venom look "not so bad" when Marvel decided they wanted to turn him into a good guy (which his creator was completely against).

If you love him, more power to you. I don't.

Green Goblin all the way.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown." - Malcolm Reynolds
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 2:38:56 pm EST from 24.205.39.101

On another note (This is for all the people on here who have bashed Carnage) I already did before my last comment just scroll down under last week's comments and you'll find it. Anyway Carnage(and Venom) are awesome. I especially love Carnage's personality though. Practically the only thing he can think about is killing. He has some great quotes too. He reminds me (personality wise) of one of my favorite horror icons Freddy Kreuger. On a further note I was born in 1990 and got to know Spidey through the 1994 cartoon which I still on Disney today. As a result of that show Spidey is my favorite hero. That got into reading his comics several of which features Venom and Carnage and of course all the other classic villains. I even have a Carnage action figure I bought that looks wicked cool. I'd show you an image on here if I knew how to upload it. In conclusion Carnage is a badass and I was just lashing out at people because I wanted to fight back at all the bashing that was going on. I'm sorry if it looked I was overreacting and didn't mean to offend anyone. I guess if you didn't grow up reading comics in the nineties you probably might be as big a fan as nineties kids are. One things I'll admit is adding the tons of additional symbiotes they've added(aka Toxin not saying he sucks or anything) is overdoing it way too much. Venom and Carnage are the only true symbiotes. Sorry if this really long peace out.
spideyforever
peter lebrun
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 2:22:36 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

Nicktoons Network of all places. Channel 93 where I live. Don't know about you so check your local listings. Also search Youtube it's on there I already checked.
spideyforever
peter lebrun
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 1:45:12 pm EST from 75.118.70.61

Demonskrye - I mentioned Wolverine & the X-Men in here weeks ago, and other than CrzyDemona saying she hated it, no one else noticed. I never really followed the comic and personally, though I watched the original series, there was too much action and not enough characterization. YTV has had the new series on since late last fall and I've seen a pile of episodes-and I've been quite enjoying them. As I mentioned at the time-it's odd that both YTV and Teletoon are airing the show in Canada.
Incidently-This coming Sunday-February 1st at 10AM-Teletoon will be airing the first 4 episodes of Wolverine & the X-men, if you've not seen it and want to check it out. Would like to know what the rest of you think. BTW, Where is it airing in the US?
Wingless
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 12:29:38 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

@ Vicky: Without BATMAN TAS?? :S
Brook
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 11:29:11 am EST from 84.191.212.64

Wolverine and the X-men is brilliant, i've already seen 1st 14 episodes. I think it's 10 times better than X-men Evolution and more darker. I like the early 90s cartoon as it's a classic. X-men will always be my favorite Marvel superheros but X-men is 3rd in my top favourite cartoons with Gargoyles 1st (of cause) TMNT 2nd.

I can't wait till Hulk vs Wolverine/Thor DVD comes out
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 10:49:57 am EST from 64.12.117.134

Todd> I think your problem is that your approching the TGC Quarrymen the way you would canon Castaway or any other Gargoyles Villain, trying to find internally consistant characterisation and motivations.

What you really need to do is think of them more like the cartoon version of Cobra or the 80's Foot Clan, dastardly one dimensional villains who do dastardly things for no reason beyond that is says so in the script. Honestly, I spent most of TGC waiting for Castaway to break out the weather controling machine.
Algernon
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 10:47:42 am EST from 149.157.1.180

Todd> The reasoning behind the human antagonists hatred of mutants in "X-Men" is somewhat complicated, probably due in part to the fact that the story has been told and retold bu various creators so many times over the years. Genetic purity may be part of the rationale for humans hatred of mutants, but I don't know that it's the entire story. There have certainly been characters who regard mutants as something other than human which has no place among "normal" humans. But the argument that mutants are the next step in human evolution always seemed to me more like Magneto's way of thinking, he being the one who prefers to think of mutants as being a different species of sub-species. The problem with ordinary human believing that mutants are the next evolutionary step is that it requires those people to also admit that mutants are actually superior to humans in some way, which I doubt would be a very popular viewpoint.

The argument i hear most often and the one that makes the most sense to me as one that people might be able to convince themselves is right, is that mutants are potentially dangerous. Many of them look exactly like ordinary people, able to conceal their abilities until they need or desire to use them. Wolverine looks like an ordinary guy but at a moments notice, he can produce blades from his hands. Telepaths like Professor X and Jean Grey can potentially use their powers on people without them even being aware that it's happened. Of course, some mutants use their abilities to help people and probably he vast majority just try to lead ordinary lives. But individuals who choose to use their powers for their own gain or to harm others and groups like the Brotherhood, demonstrate the potential harm that mutants can do with their powers. So people get scared and come to believe that, for the safety of the majority, it's better to have all mutants registered, cured, locked up, or some how "controlled" than to risk even one mutant causing cataclysmic damage, especially if that one mutant happens to have the power to turn anything into an atomic bomb. Taking away rights from a small and relatively powerless minority and claiming that it's necessary because of the potential harm they may do has happened in the past and unfortunately is not totally unheard of to this day, so it makes sense to me as a possible argument for people who want something done about the mutant "problem."

I think there is a lot of potential for this to be applied to "Gargoyles." One of the problems facing the clans of the world right now is that most humans know almost nothing about gargoyles, so to much of the population of the world, their potential to do harm is limitless. It's not just that they aren't yet aware that gargoyles are protectors by nature; for all most people know, gargoyles could be able to lift 300 times their own weight, deflect bullets, and shoot lasers out of their eyes. Down the line, when humans come to understand what gargoyles can and can't do a little better, I think the Quarrymen's biggest arguments for "gargoyle control" will be Demona, Thailog, Brentwood, and any other gargoyles who may stray from the gargoyle way. One of the many failings of "The Goliath Chronicles" was underusing these gargoyle antagonists, especially Demona. If she had been identified attacking humans, the Quarrymen would have at least been able to point to her and say "See? Gargoyles are evil and they want to kill us all!" or at least "Gargoyles can be dangerous, far too dangerous to be allowed to run free." As is, all the audience got was the Quarrymen constantly claiming that gargoyles were bad in the face of the clan doing nothing but good and being the only gargoyles most people ever saw, which somehow led to the citizens of New York completely buying the Quarrymen's baseless argument.

Though gargoyles are not mutated humans, I think there is still some potential in the idea that the very existence of gargoyles could threaten humans simply because of its potential to take us down a peg. Once the dust settles from the initial discovery that gargoyles exist and humanity comes to understand that gargoyles aren't wild beasts, they're going to realize that what they have on their hand is a completely sentient species, capable of speech and cognitive thinking on the level of an adult human that has been on Earth at least as long as humans and has as much right to the place as we do. If that happened in real life, I'm guessing the reaction would not be universally positive. Even people who don't necessarily think that gargoyles are going to take over the world (which wouldn't be beyond consideration, since they do have this miraculous healing ability and it will likely be a long time before its clear to anyone exactly how many gargoyles are left in the world) may be a little nervous about the implications of having to share the planet with a species capable of communicating its own wants and needs to us in no uncertain terms when for centuries, we've been so comfortable having the place essentially to ourselves.

Incidentally, has anyone else seen "Wolverine and the X-Men yet? I caught the first two episodes and aside from a rather annoying marketing campaign, I think it's pretty good.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 9:29:47 am EST from 146.115.115.33

That was a good read. Thanks for the link, Todd, and well done, Greg B!
Grey Wolf
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 9:06:59 am EST from 76.123.26.18

Sorry for the double-post, but Greg Bishansky's just uploaded an excellent "Gargoyles" fanfic entitled "Rhapsody" (I was one of its beta-readers). To read it, go here:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4818572/1/
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 8:01:54 am EST from 4.244.209.156

A thought I had about the infamous plothole in the "Goliath Chronicles" that we were discussing a couple of weeks ago: how do the Quarrymen rationalize their hatred about the gargoyles if they know that they're really noble protectors? I wondered if that could have been another example of the new production team thinking too much in terms of "X-Men"?

In "X-Men", it would make sense (in a twisted way) for mutant-haters to be aware that some mutants act like super-heroes, and still hate them. They believe in humanity's gene pool the way it originally was, and to them, mutants represent deviations. It wouldn't matter to them whether mutants use their powers for good or for evil; what matters is that mutants aren't regular humans, and that they might even be a sign that Mother Nature's done with regular humans. They're fueled by an obsession with genetic purity.

But that doesn't apply to the gargoyles, since the gargoyles aren't humans. They aren't even that closely related to humans on the zoological family tree. I think that the "Goliath Chronicles" production team overlooked that when they were making the series.

I wonder if much of the "Goliath Chronicles" would have made more sense if the gargoyles *had* been mutant humans instead of members of a non-human species (though not all of it, since you'd still have such things as Castaway still being a respected citizen after the heavy artillery incident).
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Mon, Jan 26, 2009 7:23:08 am EST from 4.244.209.156

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