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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending May 4, 2009

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I wasn't telling anyone to stop discussing the cover so I don't know where that came from. I see that some people love the cover art and others dislike it, and there's very few in between. The only point I was making is that I don't care one way or the other about the "Star Wars" reference, I'll just be happy to finally have the book after all the months and months of the fandom being told that it's "coming soon."
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I really don't think cover art has very much to do with the sale of the books though. Like Landon said, there's a potentially large fanbase, but no one knows it's available or even where to get them. It has more to do with availability and accessibility I think. I've never seen these sold in stores...that's where the problem lies. I seriously doubt that even if a few extra Star Wars fanatics pick the book up soley for its cover that it will make any sort of significant dent in the sales.

Also, I don't like that Brooklyn is featured so prominently like the gargoyle messiah. This might be good for a "Timedancer" cover, but this is still "Clan Building". The title and cover picture don't match. And Huh? He's buddies with Demona?? I mean maybe he works with her to get what he wants (and vice versa) but the cover implicates more than that-and being that their counterparts on the original poster are Luke and Leia, it's more than a little weird.

Also, the first arc of the book have absolutely nothing to do with any of this. So if a casual observer just happens to flip through the first few pages to see what it's all about, odds are they will be disappointed.

Well, whatever. It seems that most people like it so I will stop complaining. I just think that more thought should have been put into the cover of possibly the last Gargoyle stories we will be getting, at least for a long time.


By the way, here are the sales number for those X-Man issues:

39 - 39,234
40 - 49,497
41 - 52,946
42 - 52,714 (Rockwell cover)
43 - 49,506
44 - 70,805
45 - 75,835
46 - 82,592

The sales ramp up at the end because the run ended at #46. This doesn't really say if the parody cover helped sales or not, but it didn't seem to hurt. There aren't a lot of new comic fans they could draw in from the geriatric crowd that appreciates a Norman Rockwell parody. That isn't true for Star Wars and I think occasional novelty can help as well.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]

Just for some perspective, here's a New X-Men cover from a couple years ago by one of my favorite artists, Skotty Young: http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~lthomas/new-xmen-42-skotty-young.jpg

Like Gargoyles #12, this is a pose-for-pose copy of an earlier, unrelated work. In this case, it's a parody of an old Saturday Evening Post cover by Norman Rockwell: http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~lthomas/norman-rockwell-shiner.jpg

It's completely different than all the other New X-Men covers, which normally feature characters in slightly invented action shots and poses in the same art style, like you'd expect. Here's the cover to the following issue to show what I mean: http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~lthomas/new-xmen-43-skotty-young.jpg

I looked at my old copy of #42 and there's little relation in the story to Rockwell's work. The featured character gets in a fight with another student at Xavier Institute. He doesn't sit on a bench or see a principal or anything.

Now, this circumstance isn't 100% comparable to Gargoyles because there's less chance someone would look at that and think it's full of Norman Rockwell stories. Rockwell didn't write fiction. But it shows there is an established comic heritage for parodying "covers" from other works, whether they be a Saturday Evening Post cover or a "cover"/poster for Star Wars: A New Hope. Robby Bevard even specified that #12 is in the "painted" style of the Star Wars poster much like the X-Men cover is in the painted style of the Rockwell.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]

Cover> I'm guessing the choice to make the issue #12 cover which became the Volume 2 cover a parody of/homage to the "Star Wars" poster was not primarily a grab for Star Wars fans, at least not in the "Hey, you know what's popular? "Star Wars." We should do a cover based on "Star Wars"" way. What seems most likely to me is that everyone involved thought it would be fun and would fit with the story, possibly more than we were anticipating. I don't think that the story is going take a back seat to Star Wars references. As Matt suggested, it could be as simple as Brooklyn realizing that his latest timedancing stop is in the 1970s when he notices that "Star Wars" is in its original run in theaters. But I'm not expecting issue #12 to be the "Gargoyles" Star Wars parody.

I'm fine with pushing the Star Wars connection as a selling point now that I know there's more to it than just the cover. But I don't expect we'll see tons of Star Wars fans buying the second trade just because of the cover and the potential Star Wars references. If the cover gets someone to look twice and hopefully pick up the book and flip through it, that's great. But there are tons of Star Wars items at retail, even if you only count current product and not the vintage stuff. It's nearly impossible for anyone to collect all of the regular Star Wars merchandise, let alone every peace of media that makes some kind of allusion to Star Wars.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I think the cover is a great idea. It raises awareness and probably helps sell a dozen extra-copies. Even if people might be let down that this ain't a Star-Wars parody (which I hardly think, because that would seriously imply people going into comic book shops, not looking through the issue or reading the text on the back and buy it without giving it further thought), I guess nobody who would write a review saying "So, I bought this comic with a Star Wars cover, but it was not a Star Wars parody, lolz, what a CRAP!!" would ever be taken seriously.

I mean, if I'd buy a book with a naked woman on the cover, I wouldn't think that this implies that the book is pornographic, nor would I suspect a record which cover is a parody of SGT. PEPPERS to sound like the Beatles.

I'd rather guess that some Star Wars collectors might actually pick it up due to the cover, and be surprised at how interresting the story actually is (the ROCK-arc, that is, at least from what we've seen).

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Star Wars parodies used to be cliche but they've been done for SO LONG they're actually in vogue again. The Robot Chicken and Family Guy specials prove that. I guess it's cyclical, oddly enough.

There's little point in showing off the awesomeness of the storyline from a marketing perspective. Gargoyles has already secured its hard core fanbase but has had a difficult time getting noticed. That's the most frustrating part: Gargoyles has fans. I see tweets about it all the time. They're just completely unaware that it has done anything in 10 years. So Greg might as well try something out of left field if it attracts the attention of a completely different set of geeks. There's evidence we could be approaching an endgame scenario for both Gargoyles and SLG here. There's no reason to be timid. They should throw all their cards down on the table and I think this cover does just that. We shouldn't cringe but maximize its potential as a promotional tool. That's what it's there for. I just hope someone writes about it before it comes out...

Besides, with "use the force, Lex" and "clone wars", Star Wars references already have precedent in the Gargoyles mythos. Greg wouldn't have picked the cover if it didn't fit.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]

Despite the fact that the Star Wars cover isa cliche. You can't argue the point that there is a significant fan base for SW that might just be tempt to buy the comic on that cover alone. Even if they don't like the contents.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

Trying a new icon.

Patrick: So what are we supposed to talk about then? All we have
now is the cover, not the contents. As an artist and a garoyles fan, I'm putting my two cents in about gargoyles artwork...isn't that the point of this message board? Obviously I will buy it no matter what the cover is because I'm more interested in the content.

I don't hate the cover, but it just doesn't feel like "Gargoyles" to me-it feels more like "bad Star Wars rip off." Using Star Wars references now is kind of cliche-everyone's done it ("The Simpson's did it!") so heavily referencing it in a creative and unique property like Gargoyles just feels like a cop-out to me. I'm really not all that thrilled by what Robby Bevard said about the amount of Star Wars references either-I want to read about "Gargoyes", not Brooklyn's crossover adventures in a Galaxy far far away.

I think Gargoyles is awesome enough without having to resort to using a popular cultural motif just to tell people how cool it is.


PATRICK - I feel the same way that you do, but I suspect that a lot of people out there will pay more attention to the cover than the story within its pages.

For the past two and a half years, I've been following a well-written webcomic on the Internet regularly. It has a great story, fine characterization, and an effective setting. And the discussion group in its forum pays some attention to that - but most of the talk seems to revolve more around the side matters (comic relief bit characters, humorous sound effects, pop culture references) than to the story itself.

Todd Jensen

I posted a comment in Guardians of Avalon, a facebook fan group.
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Now, now... Language.

Re: the Garg comics/graphic novels--if anyone here uses Facebook or livejournal, etc. please spread the word there. With so many people viewing these sites I'm guessing it would help get the news out pretty quickly. (if this idea is already out there apologies; I've been awol because of medical issues and computer viruses :P )
Bagpipes5K - [bagpipes5k at gmail dot com]

@ Litwolf: Oh, as for humor where you sound dead serious but don't mean it, I guess THAT never dies... ;)



Ah, good old times... :) ;)

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

@ Litwolf: Yah, don't let that ruin it for you. How was she during the Q&A?

Even if she didn't mean it as a joke, there's worse. I remember reading an angry fan letter in one of the SIN CITY issues to Frank Miller, who, during a signing session that went a bit out of hand, stood up and walked alog the line of waiting fans, signing their copies in a mere 2 seconds with a huge black edding, resulting in not only dumbfounded fans, but also in smeared comic books.

I've interviewed quite a lot of artists, and you definetely can see where the line is there. Some are genuinely professional and concentrated, others are bored and uninterrested in what they do. I think i've never met with somebody who I appreciated as an artist who was an idiot or behaved stupid, but I've had one case where this really young guy tried to give proof of how cool and how MUCH of an artist he was - the resulting quotes were the amusement of our staff for quite some time. ;)

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Brook > All Ill say is that both authors are from England (or somewhere really close to that_, both write Young Adult books (though the plots are as different as they can get), and both are very very famous. Im not even sure if they have met personally but the second obviously knew of the first, though I couldnt say if the opposite would be true. I dont wish to spread rumors, merely get some advice, and thats why I kept them nameless.

Everyone's Advice > Thanks for all your words. I know this second author was not directing her words at me personally but I couldnt help but feel like she was scolding me for reading this other author's works. I will say, if her words were just a joke, she needs to get a new sense of humor because she sounded dead serious to me. Even when I let the subject drop, she was still mumbling under her breath about the other author. I think it was her unprofessionalism that threw me off and disappointed me, especially since everyone else who ever met this author raved about how kind and friendly she is and all Ill be able to say is that I saw the not-so-nice side of her. If she was having a bad day, that sucks but maybe she should tell her publisher not to book her with three events everyday on a week long tour. She's lucky Im not a younger and less mature fan (and there were tons of those at her event) who would have broken into tears if they thought she didnt like them.

Anyway, thanks again. Im going to get some distance from the subject and (as several of my friends suggested) separate the 'author' from the 'person' and continue to enjoy her books.

<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Matt> I hadn't thought about Brooklyn's trip to the 1970s possibly making the cover more relevant. Good point. I hadn't really considered that we might see that part of his timedancing too; I figured we would only see his first stop and his return. It will be interesting to see how the Star Wars reference in the cover ties in to the actual comics.

Patrick> Well yeah, it won't make a bit of difference to those of us who were already fans what the cover looks like. But covers are a book's most immediate form of advertising. If you see a book with a cover that's particularly beautiful, interesting, or just stands out from everything else on the shelf, you're more likely to pick it up than if the cover is dull or ugly. That's what casual readers are going to see when they're browsing and we need them to buy the trades if we want to see more "Gargoyles" comics in the future.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

May just be my opinion, but the TPB could have a BLANK cover and I'd still buy it. I care more about what's inside it than the cover art. Since when has comic book cover art ever told us much about what's INSIDE the book, anyway? :P
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

@ Demon: Yah, I was just a bit curious, especiall in regard of the work of the two authors, which might (even stylistic) explain a lot.
Hunter S. Thompson used to take copies of his books, threw them in the air and shot them with a revolver when students visited him, instead of signing them. A lot of what is going on with artists (and what they imply) is in their writing aesthetic itself.

So, say, if the male one was Dan Brown, and the female one Donna Tart, I would imply that she definetely meant it as a joke, just looking at her interviews, writing aesthetics and the, uh, gap inbetween the range of both authors.

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

TPB cover...

uh wow, hehe I would never have expected something like that. Personally I gotta say it doesn't do much for me. I'm not a Star Wars fan (I didn't catch the reference) I also don't like Brooklyn all that much...ahem. Anywho, it just seems kind of...uncreative I guess. They just took the original poster and slapped gargoyle characters on there. I mean, will the hunter really have as big a role in the comic as Darth Vader did in star wars? Probably not.
It actually reminds me of this picture I did three years ago with Goliath and Elisa on a poster from of Army of Darkness:


You see, I did it first! lol. But that picture is purely meant to be silly, but I don't think that's the comic's intentions-it does just look silly to me though.

But, hey, if it sells a lot more copies, then it's my favorite cover! lol


Brook> Actually, I think Litwolf is being very responsible by not posting the names of the authors in question. Public forums on the internet are just that: public, meaning that anyone else on the internet can easily access all or part of what people post here. Stating the names of the two authors involved could cause a very big headache for either or both of them, especially if Litwolf did misunderstand and the statements the one author made about the other were intended as a joke. You may think that the author could just come on the internet and say "Oh, I was really only kidding" but it's not nearly that easy to correct misinformation once it gets out and it's near impossible to "prove" that you were joking and that you're not just saying that after the fact. Maybe you wouldn't be concerned if you were in the positions of these authors, but I sure would and I think you can see how other people might feel that way as well.

And just because some professional people behave in a certain way doesn't make it professional to do so. Sure guys like Axel Rose and other people who have already made it big can get away with insulting their competitors in public, but try that when you're lower on the totem pole and it's a lot harder to recover if the publicity from your statements comes back to bite you.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Some thoughts on the Gargoyles TPB cover.

I think all the gargoyles we are seeing gliding in front of the moon are Demona's Clan or maybe the Wyvern Clan members that split away before the Wyvern Massacre.

Star Wars came out in 1977, which ties in nicely with the fact that Brooklyn's first TimeDancing adventure does indeed take him to the late 1970's. And seeing this cover really makes me chuckle when I think about Brooklyn saying "Yeah, use the Force, Lex." in 'Her Brother's Keeper'.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I hide in plain sight. The demons do it all the time." - John Castaway, 'Estranged'

@ Demonskrye: I don't find it unprofessional, to be serious. I've come around enough artists who were genuinely pissed off by rivals who had more luck with their work (especially made more money with it), and voiced that in a quite rude way. Just look at Axl Rose. ;) OK, he's a dork, but still...

But I still think she meant it as a joke.

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

@ Litwolf: Who were the two authors? Nothing bad with posting names.

I don't think it was mean - quite the contrary, I think it was very sarcastic. I use to make sarcastic remarks all the time and don't even smile during them, what, in some ridiculously surreal situations, can turn some people who do not know me off (thankfully enough those are of the more superficial kind ;) ).
I mean, the 'movies' quote seems totally sarcastic to me. It's something I could see me say during a Q&A when I'd get asked about a friend of mine.

I remember when I told this one guy how the name I use was just a nickname (I've got an english name, and people now and then come up with the theory tha I made that one up to be 'cool' and I thought I might play along this time), and the next day, people told a friend of mine "GOD, he's so PATHETIC?? He's not even called that, and he STILL uses that name!!"

Ah well...

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Litwolf> Just reading it, it does kind of sound like this author was trying for dry humor that feel flat, but you were there and I was not so I will assume that you know better than I do what the intent of her words was. If she was indeed being serious about her feelings towards this other author, I think it was rather unprofessional of her to air her grievances in a public setting like that. That said, I don't see any evidence that she was trying to put you down in any way for having gone to see this other author. I can see how starting off on that note would be disappointing to you, especially when you were so excited about meeting this author, and I'm sorry that this happened to you. But ultimately, I think you shouldn't let it bother you too much. It is disappointing, but it shouldn't effect how you feel about the author's work. I know it's harder than it sounds to separate a work from its creator sometimes, but it's not as if you found out that she was involved in something terrible or some other fact that would make you question whether you wanted to give her your money by buying her work.

I'm sure any seasoned con-goer could tell you that there are many people out there who are great artists in their particulars fields, but are poor public speakers, uninteresting to talk to, or even outright jerks. My elementary school had a lot of authors come in to talk to us when I was young and I can think of at least one who just was not get at public speaking. I've met animators whose work I admire and later found out that the fun and engaging talk they gave was much more scripted than it sounded. A friend of mine went to a con and saw a particular voice actor, not somebody who does a lot of work, but he was on a fairly high profile show. This guy wasn't mean or rude or anything, but from what my friend told me and the video he brought back of the con, the guy really considered his role on the show as a job and nothing else, which was very different from the other voice actors on the show. Did this make him a bad voice actor? Heck no. His performance on the show never feels like someone just running through his lines as fast as possible to get a paycheck. He's a total pro when it comes to doing the work. He's just not cut out for the con circuit, and that's fine.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Litwolf> You really shouldn't let it bug you, I doubt she had anything against you personally. Hell you might have just caught her on a bad day, it happens. Truth is writers are human beings just like the rest of us, with all the same foibles and hang ups.

Now whether a writer's personal character should affect how you feel about their work is a diffrent question. Let me ask you this, if you were going to by a table would it effect your decision if you heard that the carpenter was a jerk?


Litwolf > Well, based solely on what you've written, I don't think what she said was that bad. Of course, I wasn't there to hear her tone or see her face, but it seems pretty mild to me. The second thing, about you loving her more because you traveled to see her, sounds to me like it was an attempt at a dry joke.

I wouldn't take it too seriously. It's easy to put our favorite authors on pedestals and forget that they are just regular people like you and me, who sometimes say things which are crass or insensitive.


Litwolf - Neither of the quotes you posted from the 2nd author sound mean to me at all. In fact, they sound like jokes. Are you 100% sure you interpreted her tone correctly? Sure that she wasn't being funny, droll, dry, ironic, etc.? Another possibility is she was just trying to make conversation and latched onto something more interesting than the usual geekgasms she has to deal with.

And even if she was slightly negative, you shouldn't take it personally. Everyone has bad days. If I had to meet and "be nice" to hundreds of people a week in 10 second intervals in order to make a living, I'd get dour pretty quick. Frankly I don't know how professional con-goers/book-signers/etc. can stand it.

But still, from the exact quotes you posted, I would guess it was a dry joke or irony that you didn't pick up on. I mean "you must love me more" does not sound at all serious.

As for enjoying her stuff, I know plenty of very abrasive creators that make content I love. A lot of the time the arrogance is deserved because they are the best. The tenacity required to propel yourself to the top of the entertainment industry can give anyone an ego. You can't take it personally.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]

Since it has slowed down a bit in here, can I ask something? Its a bit of a long post, I understand if no one answers but I thought Id throw it out there. Im going to post for Greg W's advice as well. Here's the story:

On Monday, an author came to my college campus. I was excited but not crazy with excitment; I have only read two of his books and, while they were good, they are not high on my list of favorites. I got to ask him a question and he signed my book. He was wonderful, funny, nice, full of stories and advice. I was relieved because my friends and I had heard he could be quite rude when on tour or in an interview so we were quite relieved to see that he was nice.

The following day, Tuesday, I was driving to the next state over to see an author who I could definitely say I was crazy with excitment to see. I absolutly love her books, have read them all, and was thrilled that I could finally meet her, ask her my questions, and get my books signed. I had heard from other fans that she is very sweet, friendly, and great fun to be with. I rushed over there (was a little late due to traffic but not much) and got there in time for the Q&A, where she answered the crowd's questions. I got my number for the signing line and stepped up when it was my turn.

As she was signing, I told her how excited I was because she was the second author I had met in 24 hours. When she asked who the first was, I told her his name. She looked up at me with wide eyes, saying, "Oh, I dont like him. He's my rival. His books have been made into movies." I was a little taken aback by her words and tone. She wasnt joking around, she was being serious. One of the bookstore guys working the event asked me where I had seen the first author. I explained how he had come to my college campus for a reading. The author, still signing, replied, "Oh then that means you must love me more since you traveled to see me." I didnt say anything to that; just took my books, faked a smile for a camera, and left. I didnt even get to ask more than one question that I tossed over my shoulder as I was walking away because I didnt want to stay any more. She didnt say anything specifically mean to me but I felt... down (for lack of a better word) about such a negative response when I was simply saying he was an author I had seen earlier. I wasnt giving him praise to her face nor was I trying to anger her by mentioning a rival (as I said, though both write YA books, they are not that similar besides both being fantasy). And I was there, standing in front of her, being her fangirl, not his. I truly felt letdown and went home very sad.

Has this ever happened to you? Meet an author/creator who you loved and adore and find out they are not the kind of person you had hoped they would be? I am worried this will taint my enjoyment of the series this author has written. What if I buy the newest release, read it, and all I can think about is her shaking her head at me?

Please help me with this. I am terribly disappointed by my impression of this second author and need a way to push past it. Any and all advice is welcome.

<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Hey guys, me again! It's the first of the month so head over to MGC and check out the new batch of Gargoyles fan art! ^_^ Vote on your fav from the April topic (Gargs Down Under) and see if you get inspired by the May one (Fanfic Illustrations 2)
kess - [< MGC]

@ Robby: You just got me to buy this book on day 1 (although I would have bought it one way or another - but THIS just made me anticipate it even more).
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Robby - When you say "painted", do you refer the coloring style or is the actual method different? Your coloring is done by computer, right?
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]

Robby: How you ended that post of yours made my week -- seriously. :D

Cover: It's awesome, I love it, and that's not even considering the SW reference . . . .

"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

The cover that was used for previews is the "issue 12" cover. Greg Guler did covers for issues 9 and 10, (as well as all the art for issue 10!) David Hutchison did the 11 and 12 "covers.", as well as the art for issue 11. The 12 cover is the only "painted" one, to match the obvious Star Wars rif. And yes, many elements of that really are in the the context of the book, its appropriate.

I have no idea which of the six issue covers will be used for the actual final trade cover, but I would guess its that one since thats what they solicited with.

I'm not saying anything more than that, but yeah... ya'll are going to enjoy this book. Its very awesome, with quite a few... surprises.

Robby Bevard

In Hunter's Moon 3, what do you suppose happened when the clan arrived at Elisa's apartment after fleeing the ruins of the clock tower?
gargoyleslady - [kendal dot renfro at yahoo dot com]


I guess I like it. I dont hate it but Im also not gushing with emotion towards it. Brooklyn looks stiff to me, like a cardboard cutout or something.

Is this the final cover art or something they put together for the Previews? Part of me really hopes that its not the final art because, like those who mentioned it already, people might take it to be a Star Wars comic. Then they would be disappointed and give it bad reviews because it wasnt what they had thought it would be.

<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

@ A Tini: I'm glad he chose STAR WARS instead of THIS:


The first person who does fan-Garg-art of this is SO sick...


I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

I'm just glad that Greg decided to satire Star Wars and not High School Musical. :) LOL
Anthony Tini

@ Supermorff: It's a variety of Gargoyle-shapes, but they copied and pasted them, kinda photoshop, but you only see that if you look REALLY close.

@ Rebel: "It looks more like his face has been painted, rather than he's wearing a mask."

And that might be the striking point/kickass-variety of THIS Hunter, of whom I hope it is the Hunter of 2198!! :D

I'm fine with it - remember, the cover will be quite small in the end, so it'll look a bit more organical then.

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

That cover is absolutely hilarious. I love it.

Rebel> It could be paint. On the 'scar' just below his left eye there's a deviation in the linework that makes it look like a tear - or running paint.

Any theories on the meaning of the sword (besides the obvious film reference)? We know King Arthur plays a big role in this trade, but it doesn't look much like Excalibur to me. Handle's the wrong shape. Something Brooklyn picked up in Scotland... or maybe Japan?

And there are a LOT of gargoyles in the background. One in the middle looks like Lex, but I can't make out who the one at the front is supposed to be (if anyone).

Todd> Thanks for enlightening me about the Adamses. I wanted to watch that miniseries with Paul Giamatti, but missed it. Dang.


I like the *idea* of doing a Star Wars parody as a Gargoyles cover, but that cover just doesn't look right to me. I don't know, it's like...the anatomy looks wrong. Off-model. Almost fan-art-ish. And what's with the Hunter's face? It looks more like his face has been painted, rather than he's wearing a mask.

Still, I'm super-excited to see the cover cause it's a visual reminder that it won't be long before the trade comes out. I can't wait to read issues 9-12.


The cover image would be nice as a parody poster, but right here, it doesn't tell you anything about the book's content or draw the viewer towards anything that actually happens in the book. The first cover was a generic "Gargoyles" image, but this one works even less.

The art itself is pretty nice, though, except that Brooklyn's wings are wrong.

Still, I am so glad that there's a solicitation out in Previews. I won't really be celebrating until I hold this book, but it's nice to get close.


Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

Demonskrye - I'm not trying to promote the story, I'm trying to think of any way possible to get Gargoyles into the news again. The last time it had significant coverage was when SLG announced the 4-title Disney license years ago. All the following releases were barely mentioned. Wonderland and Skelebunnies have scored some big press recently and I think it's Gargoyles' turn since it was always a top SLG seller. The Star Wars angle has broad appeal and is the best chance it has at getting publicity. I think that's why it's there: the cover is the primary selling point.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]

@ Todd: Please note that the hunter is NOT wearing a mask in the traditional sense - it looks as if it's either painted on... or tattooed-on. At least from my impression
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Clan Building 2 Cover> ***Minor Spoilers, if anyone wants to be surprised by the cover image***

I'm hesitant to play up the "Star Wars" angle too much in trying to promote the trade. Aside from the cover, I'm guessing the contents of the trade have little or nothing to do with "Star Wars," so we don't want to create the impression that the trade is one big "Star Wars" parody and then have people be disappointed when they find out the cover is the only reference. It's possible that there are a few nods to "Star Wars" in the actual story, but I kind of doubt it.

I like the cover and I think it's a fun idea. I just hope it doesn't create expectations for potential customers of something the book doesn't actually deliver.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

A further thought about the Hunter on the cover. After my earlier post, I realized that the shape of the Hunter's head resembled Macbeth wearing the Hunter's mask in "City of Stone" more than it did the medieval Hunters (Gillecomgain, Duncan, and Canmore). So an alternate possibility is that the Hunter could be Macbeth. We know that Brooklyn, Mary, and Finella will be arranging Xanatos and Demona's meeting in modern times - perhaps we'll catch at least a glimpse of Macbeth going after Demona then (except that the impression I got from the modern scenes of "City of Stone" was that this was the first time that Demona had seen Macbeth wearing that hood - she doesn't know it's him until she notices that he's feeling the pain she receives).

At least we'll find out in a little under three months.

Todd Jensen

:: meanwhile, at Quarrymen HQ ::

"Oh, I'm - oh, oh..."

"What is it, Lieutenant Sebastian?"

"It's just the gargoyles, sir. They're here."

"My God, man! Do they want tea?"

"No, I think they're after something more than that, sir. I don't know what it is, but they've brought a flag."

* * * * *

Reminder: Today's the last day to register at the current membership rates for the Gathering of the Gargoyles! It's great to hear that the trade will be out in July, in time for getting copies autographed at the con in August. :)

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Since one of the people featured on the cover is the Hunter, does that mean that we'll be seeing one of the Hunters in the TimeDancer part of the trade paperback? (Since all of the other characters on the cover are linked to the TimeDancer part of the story.) We know from Greg that Brooklyn meets Mary and Finella in 997 (though he might have changed that part); at that point, the only Hunter around would be Gillecomgain, who had received those scars from Demona three years earlier. He'd be fifteen in 997, but that might not be too young to start gargoyle-hunting back then (King Arthur was also fifteen when he drew Excalibur from the stone). I look forward to finding out if we get at least a cameo from Gillecomgain in the latter half of the trade.

And it's certainly an amusing cover. Thanks for sharing it.

Todd Jensen

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!

"including a chapter (issue 10) drawn by series character designer Greg Guler, making this a truly special book."

HYPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

*looks at the cover*


*looks at it again*

Somehow... I feel as if this is going to b totally epic and amazing, and blow out the previous GARG-comics out of the water. Nothing against them, but if the entire TIMEDANCER-arc is as amazing as the STONE-arc, PLUS this kickass coverartwork that totally grabbed me... if thisis any indication of the quality of the remaining four issues, I'm totally on to this!! :D

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Sorry for the double post

I just relised I should have put spoiler tags up so i'm very sorry to anyone who probably didn't want to know about the cover yet when Vol 2 is out in July, so again I very sorry.

VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

WOW, I love the cover. Demona is there too, WOW i'm gobsmacked, I can't believe i'm seeing Demona. (Gets excited and starts jumping up and down on my bed) I can't wait till July.
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

And feel free to link/hotlink these images:


They should have plenty of free bandwidth.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]

I think the new cover is news-worthy in a pop-culture-kitsch kind of way. I suggest submitting a link to any comics/pop-culture/nerd news sites and blogs you can think of. Here's what I've been writing:

Subject: Disney's Gargoyles do Star Wars

I have a cool link to suggest: http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Gargoyles:_Clan-Building%2C_Volume_Two

The Gargoyles comic line from SLG might be ending this summer, but it goes out with a bang. Volume 2 of the trade paperback is out in July and features an inspired Star Wars parody cover (reference: http://twitpic.com/496yo ) It was scanned from the May edition of Previews.

Landon Thomas (just a fan)

I've submitted a link suggestion to Boing Boing, CBR.cc, and comics.ign.com. I think it would be right up Blog@Newsarama's alley, but I can't find a contact link for them or the main site. So I just wrote a post on their forum and hopefully someone will notice: http://www.newsarama.com/common/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7288

I think now is the best time for publicity since it's just out in Previews and the Star Wars angle is fresh. Once the comic is released, it might get lost in the shuffle. Please rattle some cages to SPREAD THE WORD.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]

Ok, I retract the expensive part, but the pound part still stands.

*snigger* That looks interesting.

I preordered it, although I have no idea why Amazon Germany claims that the original price is in Pound (and therefore on the expensive side in Euro)


Direct link: http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Gargoyles:_Clan-Building%2C_Volume_Two

Wow, the new cover is stunning and not at all what I expected. Such an outright parody is a bold move for a trade cover but I think it's the perfect way to end the first cycle. Definitely grabs the attention and doesn't hold back. It's inspired, but I just hope it doesn't come across as too funny. So according to the Wiki, it was a collaboration between Greg Guler and David Hedgecock?

For those wondering what the joke is: http://twitpic.com/496yo

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]

The cover is already available for viewing over at the GargWiki.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I hide in plain sight. The demons do it all the time." - John Castaway, 'Estranged'

I just stopped by Newbury Comics (which is more of a music and video store than a comics store if you don't live in New England and have one near you) and they had the May Previews on the shelf. So I opened it up, flipped through and sure enough, the solicitation for Clan Building Volume 2 is in there. Also, Slave Labor is listed under Amaze Ink/Slave Labor, so if you need to point it out to your local comics retailer, flip to the Comics and Graphic Novels section and check the "A"s.

The cover is not any artwork that we've seen before. It could be what the cover of issue @12 would have been had it been released singly, or it could be a new piece of artwork. I can describe it if anyone's interested, or we can just wait until it shows up online.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Antarctica wasn't always at the southern pole of the planet, and the polar regions weren't always covered in ice. Dinosaurs once lived on the land that now forms Antarctica. The Cretaceous period ancestors of gargoyles may have lived there too. As for why few land-dwelling species live there now, the scarcity of food, extreme cold, and lack of sunlight for half the year in the vast area beyond the arctic circle has a lot to do with it. I'd wager that "cold doesn't affect us" is a relative thing. Goliath might be able to say that when it's zero Fahrenheit in Norway, but he might feel differently about -50 F with a hurricane force wind chill.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I'd suspected from early on that Quincy Hemings had some connection with Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings (or at least, that Greg Weisman chose his surname as an allusion), but hadn't thought about the "Quincy" part of his name being a reference to the Adamses. Thomas Jefferson *did* know John Adams, John Quincy Adams's father, well, though, which would strengthen that possibility. (They were on the committee to write the Declaration of Independence together - Adams gave Jefferson the job partly because Jefferson was a good writer, partly because he thought it would be a good idea to have someone from one of the southern colonies write it since most of the leadership in the American Revolution up until then had come from the northern colonies, and he didn't want it to seem "New England's war" - that was also why he'd suggested George Washington, a Virginian like Jefferson, to lead the army - and partly because Adams had made himself so unpopular thanks to his prickly tongue that he feared that if he wrote the Declaration, the Continental Congress would reject it simply because he was the author. Later on they became enemies thanks to political differences - Adams believed in a strong central government, while Jefferson wanted a weak central government, with the power resting in the states - but later on reconciled and became friends again. They both passed on on July 4, 1826, the 50th anniversary of the adoption of the Declaration of Independence - and people back then found that as astonishing as they do now.)

The Illuminati probably did have some connection with the Founding Fathers (note that its symbol is the one-eyed pyramid, which is now on the Great Seal of the United States), though we don't know the details. Even if Quincy Hemings isn't Thomas Jefferson's son, he could be a grandson. We know that he must have been a grown man (or close to it) by the beginning of the 20th century, since he began working at the White House while Teddy Roosevelt was president.

Todd Jensen

Rebel> I'm pretty much thinking that Antarctica's extreme day/night cycle was too much for the gargoyles to handle, even if they did have a long time to potentially adjust to the chances as the continent gradually moved to where it is today. Obviously not every species can successfully adapt to changing conditions, even over long periods of time, or not species would ever go extinct without either human interference or a sudden major cataclysm. We know that gargoyles or gargates were alive on Pangaea and it seems like a reasonable assumption that some of them would have ended up on what became Antarctica. But we also know that by the time the continents were in their modern forms, there were no gargoyles in Antarctica, so something must have happened to them. Barring something like interference by a member of the Third Race, the most likely scenario would seem to be that they could no survive in the antarctic. So maybe they adjusted to some of the gradual changes in the day and night cycle of the land mass they were on. But as the nights and days grew progressively longer, it was just more than their bodies could reasonably adapt to and they died out. Or maybe they adjusted to the initial cooling temperatures and even became somewhat more hairy than the average gargoyle before finding the freezing climate too much for them and eventually going extinct in that part of the world. It's all just hypothesis at this point and I'm quite open to other suggestions.

Google searches aren't turning up anything for the Volume 2 cover. Since the Volume 1 cover is a slightly modified cover to issue #1 I would guess that this is probably a cover to one of the unreleased issues, likely #12 since we know it has Brooklyn and the preliminary artwork we've seen for the #10 and #11 covers doesn't fit with what Jack said about the cover for the trade (though they may have changed since the versions we saw.)

I hope somebody pops in with a nice image of the cover and maybe the covers for what would have been issues #9 - #12 for us. It's not that I feel entitled as a fan, but the Volume 2 cover at least is now publicly available and the more art we have, the better we can do promoting the trades.

My "not a spambot" code for this post is 975"fae," which I know is not a term Greg favors as a synonym for the Third Race, but still, fun coincidence.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Sorry for the double.

Is there anywhere the cover for Vol 2 can be viewed online?


Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not like the unusual day/night cycles on Antarctica would have happened all of sudden. Wouldn't Antarctica have drifted to its current position over a period of thousands or millions of years? And if so, it would have been an extremely gradual transition from Pangeae conditions to Antarctica conditions. It seems like the gargoyles would have had time to adapt to it. The seals and penguins managed.

But, perhaps there are some conditions that gargoyles simply cannot adapt to, and characteristics that they can't compromise on.


So, did anyone else see the cover to Clan-Building Vol 2 in the new Previews? I loved the cover, cause it's something only Brooklyn would do.
Jack-Pumpkinhead - [jtjgundam at hotmail dot com]
Lord, what fools these mortals be.

Lurker> If gargoyles or early gargates were present on Pnagaea, I would think that there must have been some of them on the land mass that eventually became Antarctica at one point. I know gargoyles are very attuned to the rhythms of the earth but "This land area will eventually break off from the rest and become very cold, so we'd better get off" seems a bit far-fetched. Though that raises the question of why gargoyles didn't continue to survive in Antarctica. The obvious answer would seem to be that it got too cold for them, but do we know for certain that gargoyles, who can deal with winter conditions in nothing but a loincloth, can't survive in antarctic temperatures? Maybe the problem was the unusual day/night cycle. The lack of rest and ability to heal their bodies for long periods of time may have proved impossible for them to overcome. Or if Sevarius's theories are correct, perhaps the lack of stone sleep for such long periods of time meant that they were unable to absorb solar energy at the rate they normally would and eventually became weak for lack of it. Or maybe it was something else, like insufficient food supply.

Anyone have a better idea?

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I also think it's likely that Quincy is Jefferson's son. Even if it ends up not being the case, I do believe that Greg named him after Sally Hemings and (probably) John Quincy Adams. I'm not familiar enough with American history to know whether Adams may have played a role in Quincy Hemings' early life or not.

I know this isnt possible since Greg said No Gargoyles have lived on Antartica BUT:

Wouldnt it be an interesting story if there were gargoyles, before the clan that will be formed there. It has been said that Antartica was not always a frozen continent. So I thought it would have been cool to see a story where the Gargoyles discover a lost clan that went to Anartica before it froze then ended up being stuck there. Obviously, there are some gaps in this, adaptation, food supply, etc but I think it is, in the least, an interesting concept.


Battle Beast> I think it was mentioned before, though I was not the one who thought of it. It seems quite likely to me, given that Quincy has been around for quite a while. I wonder if his membership in the Illuminati was helped by the fact that he had a very famous and powerful birth feather, or if it was intended as "payment" in exchange for him not broadcasting the fact that he was Jefferson's illegitimate son. Or maybe neither.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Lets make it fun again!!!

I for got to post this, but there is a character named Quincey Hemmings. Was it ever pointed out that he may be a decendant of Sally Hemmings, Tom Jefferson's Mistress? (It probably was; I just don't remember.)

Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Female Ligers can reproduce (with Tigers and Lions), male Ligers can't. Same is true for a few other cat crossbreeds.

Top Ten> I tend to wait if I do have something to say (which I don't always) in part because I don't want to participate in the Top Ten when I really don't think it's worthwhile anymore and partly because if I have a short comment, I don't want to risk it getting overlooked because people are just skimming over the tops ten.

As for the Thanksgiving Parade analogy, tradition can certainly be a great thing, but following tradition just for its own sake can become kind of pointless and counterproductive. If the Thanksgiving Day Parade had been reduce to seven people marching down the street in no particular formation with on person arhythmicly beating a drum and another holding up a balloon (not a giant character balloon, just a regular balloon), I might be inclined to kill it if I had the power. The Top Ten was fun when there really was a race to be among the first to post after a room refresh, but that's no longer the case.

It's not something I lose sleep over, but I'd be very happy if we could at least stop commenting on how slow the silly thing goes every week and how quiet the room is and just do it.

Chameleon Gene> I had thought the theory also attempted to explain how a number of gargoyles we've seen can so closely resemble other animals likes snakes, wild pigs, deer, lions, etc. Hence the word "chameleon" in the name. Personally, I'm less puzzled by how gargoyles can boast such a wide range of physical characteristics and more confused by how the various clans have gone for centuries or longer of extreme geographical separation (among the surviving modern clans, at least) and not evolved to the point where they are separate species and not capable of interbreeding. Then again, some animals that we do classify as separate species are able to produce surviving offspring, though I'm not sure if any of these hybrid species, like the liger, can produce viable offspring themselves. Anyway, if we assume that gargoyles were present on every continent except for Antarctica even before the early human population spread to all corners of the world and that settled gargoyle clans did not normally travel long distances, it's remarkable that they aren't more physically different from one another.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

We have neither Thanksgiving Day nor a Thanksgiving Day parade.

The top ten is a tradition. You wouldn't just up and kill the Thanksgiving day parade, would you?
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

"Everyone who doesn't care about the top ten just sits around waiting for it to be over"

If you have something to say and the top ten isn't over yet, why not just start a post with something like "4th!" and then skip down a few lines and post about whatever discussion topic you have in mind? There's no reason the top ten can't take place at the same time as a discussion.


@ Asatira: These are the monets when I think about how awesome it would have been if GARGOYLES would have had a biologist in the team, just to render all the gene/evolutionarry issues, ya know. ;)
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Chameleon gene> Demonskyre, I'm kinda surprised it isn't in the archive somewhere, but then again, it's a pretty vague concept. If I recall, when Greg has tried to explain his use of the "chameleon gene," he means that somewhere in the general gargoyle population's DNA there's something that allows for the variety of physical features and wing types. For example, there is a lot of physical differences between the Scottish clan type versus the English clan versus the Guatemalan clan types. A lot more than you would expect in one species of animal. The chameleon gene(s) are, in theory (and overly simplified here), what accounts for the expression of so many kinds of physical traits within one species. It's never really been pinned down and explained because Greg isn't a serious biologist or geneticist. We tend to look towards our various biologists to try and work it out.

The Spectacular Spider-Man vol. 4 is out today and closes out season 1. No official word on the box set yet. The only scheduled US release remaining is the rerelease of vol. 1 next Tuesday to fix the title.

Free Comic Book Day is Saturday. I'll take a look at Previews then if no one else has.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]

Tony> I haven't been to my local comic shop in a while and I don't know if the May Previews is out yet, so I can't say if volume 2 of Clan Building was indeed solicited. If I go this weekend and the new Previews is out, I'll try to check.

Slow Room> I've had some trouble getting on to the site myself, though it seems to be working so far today. However, I would like to point out that one of the reasons I dislike the "top ten" countdown is that it generates no discussion except about how slow the room is today. Everyone who doesn't care about the top ten just sits around waiting for it to be over and then someone almost inevitably says "Gee, it sure is quiet in here." If you want to get things moving, don't just point out how long it's been since the last post or start making cricket sounds (no offense meant to anyone in particular who has done this, but it really isn't all that funny after you've seen it five times before). Start an actual discussion. If we all just sit on our hands and wait for someone else to start things off, it's going to be longer ad longer before we move from talking about how no one is talking to talking about actual interesting topics.

That said, does anyone want to try to explain the Chameleon Gene Theory, since Landon asked about it last week?

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Wingless> Explains a lot. Like why it took me like 4-5 tries before I could even get in here.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

I didn't know!

Thanks, Wingless!

Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

hello everyone:). Hope everyone here is having a good start of the week.
Dan - [vodocius at yahoo dot com]

Anyone check out "Previews" and can you report if Gargoyles Vol 2 TPB solicitation appears in their May edition like SLG claimed it would be?
Anthony Tini

Not slow, the server has been up and down like a yo-yo. Ye can't post when ye can't get to the site.

Wow. Slow, eh?
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

De-lurking to claim tenth!

9th in the name of The Spectacular Spider-Man vol. 4 release this week!
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]


Seventh. (This is the slowest top ten in months!)
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I hide in plain sight. The demons do it all the time." - John Castaway, 'Estranged'


And I never got a rush from posting in the Top Ten. Unless I had chemical assistance.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair!" -The Joker


I'm obviously not the only person who forgot it was Sunday.


3rd yay, starting work in 20 minutes boo.
VickyUK - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

(2nd)Second! Whatever happened to the posting rush when the room clears?
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

Wow, this place is dead.

Uh, 1st.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.