Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

More than worrying about actors' salaries or accusing the stuios of being greedy (which, yes, many fans are quick to jump on), I think fans' reactions are mostly out of self-interest and respect for the properties which entertained them. They don't want part of what made the movie/TV show/band good, taken out of the equation. Of course, we're all free to ignore what comes later (in this case, more Futurama), just as Gargoyles fans and Buffy fans are free to ignore the official comic book continuations of their shows if they like, but more often than not it's the internet and fanboyism so people are gonna bitch. We do so love to complain.

I get more up in arms when a network interferes with a showrunner's/creator's process, but I also understand that it's business more than art, unfortunately. Just the nature of the beast. It's why most of the stuff on TV and theatres is crap and, several times a year, we're lucky to see something emerge that's well-made (subjective, I know).

There's certainly more important things to pay our attention to in the world, but many feel more of a connection to art than they do to human rights issues, politics, and wars, unless it directly effects them in a way they notice.
Kris - [plekopleko at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Sun, Jul 19, 2009 6:12:20 pm EDT from 174.112.16.137

Actually, Landon, I think the executives are overpaid, too. When you're talking 6, 7, 8 figure salaries, there comes a point at which... well, what does a person even do with all that money? There's certain careers where you get to the top levels and find there's just a lot of excess for its own sake. Law, banking, entertainment, sports, and politics to name a few.

I realize not EVERY voice actor is making hundreds of thousands of dollars per episode, just as not EVERY baseball player is getting paid millions of dollars per season. But the few that do drive the trend that tells everyone else you haven't "made it" in that industry until you, too, can command insane amounts of money. And it's sure crazy to me that legions of fans, many of whom may never earn that kind of money in their own lifetime, are so eager to run to the defense of the "poor actors" when a studio wants to say "now just hold on a minute." Is it not conceivable that Fox may have reasons why they might want to reduce expenses other than the one (i.e., "We're greedy and evil!") that everyone's assuming?
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sun, Jul 19, 2009 5:25:09 pm EDT from 173.88.135.205

Cuts both ways though. Each 'Futurama' actor's taxes probably fund well upwards of a dozen teachers every year who might not be there if the show wasn't a success partly through their efforts.
Ed
posted @ Sun, Jul 19, 2009 5:10:18 pm EDT from 213.187.38.226

Actors/athlete's pay scales--I'd complain about athlete's salaries before actors (but it's a personal bias since, aside from being the occasional bit of eye candy, sports figures do nothing for me in terms of entertainment and I've always thought it sorta sucked that so many kids value growing up to be someone who knows a quick, fancy way to pass a ball or puck around--and many parents encourage that-- over being smart/skilled in other areas. Disclaimer: I value physical activity/keeping healthy). However, I think it's inaccurate to say that their salaries are a direct reflection of society valuing entertainers over, say, teachers. It's more of a cause and effect thing. We LIKE to be entertained, collectively we spend a ton of money on entertainment, therefore the profits are going to trickle down to result in the performers/players being well paid (not to mention what they can make doing clothing commercials and allowing themselves to be paid to be branded by various advertisers). And the execs at the top get filthy rich. I don't know how you would convince society to pay more to send its children to school. Aside from those parents who can afford private school (or the less wealthy parents who save to send their kids there anyway), I don't think most parents think twice about putting any extra funds into potentially giving their child the opportunity to a higher standard of learning (in theory), they send their kids where everyone else does. It's unfortunate, but a lot of crusty folk already believe teachers are overpaid (they bitch about how they get a month or two off during the summer and the teachers' unions and all that).

The majority of voice actors aren't making a ton anyway. For every Simpsons or Family Guy, there're probably 20 other lesser-known animated shows or children's educational shows (puppets, etc) where the voice actors are paid much less.

Battle Beast >> Your confusion about what constitutes Season 5/the films wasn't off the mark entirely. On the air, we had five seasons (it really should have been four seasons, that's what the production numbers for the episodes indicate, but Fox split things up weirdly and stretched out the last couple years of the show--ie, it barely aired in the first halves of `00 and `01). But because the series was released over 4 volumes of DVDs and due to how most fans and possibly the creators refer to it, Futurama is regarded as a 4-season series. With the direct-to-DVD films (started in November 07 and recently concluded with the fourth one this year in February), some fans consider them a season (especially because they were written with the creators known they would be split into four episodes per film for airing on Comedy Central not too long after release--I think only the last film hasn't seen TV airing yet). But some fans consider them their own thing. An in-between before the upcoming, brand new content Season 5 (or Season 6, if going by how the show was aired and what Fox considers. Or Season 7, if you go by TV airings AND consider the films the 6th season).

As for the re-casting, it was JUST found out a couple days ago (on the 17th) from a couple of the voice actors' blogs, so no one would expected all Futurama fans to be up-to-date on that, you were simply working with old info (with news of the show returning to TV, I don't remember it being CONFIRMED that the original cast would be back, but it seemed like a safe assumption and no one was expecting this to happen). However, as others here have noted, cast re-negotiations happen once in a while in animation and given what happened with The Simpsons, this could be blown way out of proportion. It might just be a money struggle that Fox has initiated. Given how new this news is though, I'd wait for more to be said about it.

It'll indeed suck if they re-cast. I suppose the same writing and animation would still likely lead to a quality animated comedy, but it won't be the same after knowing these characters this way for so long. And I assume they're more or less keeping the continuity, that this isn't a reboot the way the Batman cartoons are lately (I can't blame 'em for rebooting that franchise after the Bruce Tim/Paul Dini incarnation of animated Batman lasted from 1992 to 2006 across five or six shows within that mega-franchise though, great as it was). If it DOES turn out to be a re-do of Futurama...it's way too soon to even consider that sort of thing.

Hey, I thought of a semi-successful way to sell Gargoyles DVDs for Canadians and help up the shows' numbers in an effort to get Season 2 Part 2 released. If you join the Disney Movie Club (but the catch is you have to buy 8 DVDs from them total over the course of two years--although that blow is softened by the first four being only 50 cents with free shipping and the remainder $9, $12, and then the last two the full price of $26), you can get Gargoyles Season 1 for $18 (plus $2 shipping if you buy Gargs when you're fulfilling the rest of your membership commitment with the other DVDs). It's listed as $31.49 on Amazon.ca and other Amazon sellers are selling it for $26.47 at the lowest (brand new) and $24 used. So price your new-from-Disney copy at $25 and make $3 or $4 bucks on it, if you think it's worth the trouble. It sells quick, I had no problem getting rid of a copy I had last year (and I'm about to sell my regular copy since I just found my second copy that Mirina Sirtis signed and can just use that as my only Season 1 DVD set from now on). You might even be able to find it for cheaper from Zellers, Future Shop, or Best Buy maybe. Find in stores, sell for more on Amazon (folks shopping on Amazon are paying with credit cards, generally are of a higher income than those who shop on eBay looking for garage sale-style deals, and are shopping for convenience instead of going out and attempting to find cheaper deals in stores). Not saying waste a bunch of time and gas driving around to different stores just to find a copy of Gargoyles to turn around in sell for minimal profit, but if you're at the mall for something else or whatever, just check under "G" and see what it's selling for.
Kris - [plekopleko at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Sun, Jul 19, 2009 4:59:39 pm EDT from 174.112.16.137

Well, if they DO use new voices, I'll be turned off. I mean, the old voices made the show!

I'll watch to see how they do, but... I probably won't like them.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Sun, Jul 19, 2009 1:46:39 pm EDT from 75.156.190.146

I guess the Simpsons casting call was already mentioned in Greg's Variety link, so sorry for the redundancy. I think Fox overplayed their hand this time though. They probably didn't anticipate the internet backlash and planned to 'come to the rescue' in time for the Comic-Con panel. At least I *hope* they anticipated the Comic-Con panel because the fans are practically going to riot if Fox doesn't announce their participation by then. Comic-Con is a major promotional tool these days so this could all blow up in Fox's face. Maybe the actors will even use the backlash to their advantage.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]
posted @ Sun, Jul 19, 2009 1:37:18 pm EDT from 216.250.163.157

Patrick - Yeah, 4 hours of funny voices after 10+ years of dedication, rejection, poverty, and tenacity. Do you think the actors should just get union minimum regardless of the success of the show? Should only the producers and studio heads be well-paid? Because they're going to try everything they can to make that happen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting

For the record, Fox attempted the same thing with the Simpsons a few years ago. The put out a casting call to replace the entire cast. It was a bluff to get the actors to accept lower paycheck. The latest voice actor contract is $400K per episode: http://tv.popcrunch.com/the-simpsons-cast-signs-4-year-deal-paid-400000-per-episode/ And you get be assured that's a drop in the bucket compared to what all the executives at Fox are making.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]
posted @ Sun, Jul 19, 2009 1:23:36 pm EDT from 216.250.163.157

Aren't pay scales in the worlds of entertainment and sports a wonderful thing? It shows what we truly value in our society when someone can make twice a much for four hours of making funny voices or taking four at-bats as most teachers make in an entire year.

33 days left until the 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, CA!
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sun, Jul 19, 2009 9:00:52 am EDT from 173.88.135.205

"It's believed that the "Futurama" cast members were asking for around $75,000 per episode;"

WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Considering all that talk about what voice actors get paid not too long ago on here... whoa...
Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!
posted @ Sun, Jul 19, 2009 6:24:50 am EDT from 84.191.188.87

Warcrafter here with another video. YAY!!!

Here, some guys thought it would be fun to re-enact the Gargoyles opening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVEsOSljYY8#
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Chuck Norris has never been denied anything. NOT EVEN REVENGE!!!
posted @ Sun, Jul 19, 2009 4:57:43 am EDT from 69.231.225.28

The con gets a lot of guests when it's in L.A. because all those people live out there. We're not engaged in a competition with previous years. Plus or minus a few people, this year's staff is the same group that organized the two previous L.A. cons... and it includes most of the staff from last's year con in Chicago, as well. So we'd be competing against ourselves.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sun, Jul 19, 2009 1:31:37 am EDT from 173.88.135.205

"With a guest list like this one, I wonder whether it's perhaps a good thing that this is the last Gathering of the Gargoyles (at least, in the near future); it would be hard for Gatherings after this one to top that."

While guests are a great thing to have, and I do love the fact Wendy Pini is coming back...the number of special guests attending isn't the end-all, be-all indicator of how good a convention is/will be. I've had a great time at cons with only a handful of Guests of Honor (Philcon) and a poor time at cons with guests a-plenty (like the last NY Comicon I attended). There's easily as many people who have attended Gatherings with no care about the guest list as those who attend solely because of the professional representation, and probably all had about as good a time as they hoped to.

I think the feeling that each Gatherings had to somehow each "top" the last, as though it were a competition, led to some over-reaching/over-extending on several fronts in many of the years...and rarely to the benefit of the event.
Lynati
posted @ Sat, Jul 18, 2009 11:45:40 pm EDT from 71.175.138.9

Greg> I knew nothing of what you psoted. I heard that info about cutting up the films into episode (which they will do) last year. And at that time, and earlier this year, I heard that all original voice cast was comming back.

I have no sources. I read it on various web sites. Sheesh.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:54:39 pm EDT from 75.156.190.146

Brook< Windi pini (sp) was at the gathering at the last LA one. She was really neat to talk to.
shara - [jeanie54_2000 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:14:09 pm EDT from 76.170.154.47

The One Known As Mochi>yup there is a futurama pannel, and theres even a live casting going on for the live simpsons show that will air on fox. Try outs are at comic con haha. i should post the details for that cause i think its funny. if your at comic con id be kewl to meet up. Ill be the alix the lion running around comic con as I am promoting madagascar 3 this year.
shara - [jeanie54_2000 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:13:24 pm EDT from 76.170.154.47

"With a guest list like this one, I wonder whether it's perhaps a good thing that this is the last Gathering of the Gargoyles (at least, in the near future); it would be hard for Gatherings after this one to top that."

Personally, I don't think something like the Gathering needs to "top" the previous events, because, well, this would basically destroy it in a search of "outgrowing" last years event.
Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!
posted @ Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:20:36 pm EDT from 84.191.228.36

Wendy Pini as another guest? Wow, that is impressive! (And all the more appropriate since she wrote the introduction for the first "Gargoyles" trade paperback.)

With a guest list like this one, I wonder whether it's perhaps a good thing that this is the last Gathering of the Gargoyles (at least, in the near future); it would be hard for Gatherings after this one to top that. So maybe going out with the 2009 Gathering is a good idea - exit with a bang.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:37:18 pm EDT from 4.244.213.203

Back again with web site updates. Wendy Pini, creator of Elfquest, has been added as a new guest!

Click my name to visit.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sat, Jul 18, 2009 5:27:27 pm EDT from 173.88.135.205

BATTLE BEAST> The voice actors from the series themselves have been talking about this. I think they know more about what's going on than you do. With all due respect.

Those Direct-to-DVD movies are not the new season of "Futurama". The new season is about to go into production. If all it was was cutting those movies up into a few episodes, there would be no issue.

But, if you keep on insisting that they are. I'm going to have to ask you to cite your source.

Here are my sources:
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118006123.html?categoryid=14&cs=1&nid=2562

http://popwatch.ew.com/popwatch/2009/07/futurama-new-voices.html
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
posted @ Sat, Jul 18, 2009 1:58:12 pm EDT from 98.148.133.212

Nope. Not recasting voices, Either. The four dvds they made had the same voice cast. and so will the new season.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Sat, Jul 18, 2009 11:04:42 am EDT from 75.156.190.146

Sometimes the voice actors are the LAST to know the studio is looking to replace them. Ask Thom Adcox about being the voice of Snap for Rice Krispies. :P

34 days left until the 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, CA!
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:55:47 am EDT from 173.88.135.205

Futurama> If they recast the roles currently (previously?) played by Billy, Katey, John, and Maurice, I see a major upset among the fanbase.

I myself would most likely refuse acknowledgment of any further enjoyment of the show if that were to happen.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Sat, Jul 18, 2009 3:20:09 am EDT from 99.22.68.150

Fox is doing what to Futurama...?!

But wait...don't they have a Futurama panel at this year's Comic-Con?

I feel as though something is amiss...
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>O.o)> Contemplating...
posted @ Sat, Jul 18, 2009 1:21:00 am EDT from 72.199.81.83

KingCobra_582> It is true. Season Five was already released. You know those direect to DVD movies? That was Season five... they are chopping them up into four eps per movies, 16 eps total.

13 eps for season 6 are in the works!!!

Woot!!! (I love the show.)
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 9:41:37 pm EDT from 75.156.190.146

Of course, the "what ifs" are ultimately pointless in a world where time is immutable (though they can be illuminating).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 8:57:59 pm EDT from 4.244.208.176

Brook> "Anyways, I'm REALLY interrested on Gregs thoughts on this. The scene always struck me as one of the more unintentionally dull scenes of the show. Demona COULD have killed them, but she didn't. Why exactly? Was she longing for her (and the rest of the clans = eggs) death? Was she horrified? Did she not care?"

I think you'll just have to wait a few weeks to get your answer. ;P
Aldrius
"There are certain advantages to being me." - Dumbledore
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 3:37:55 pm EDT from 207.112.66.144

To VoLpE: On CafePress, I think you need special permission to sell such things; they might have a problem with WWE-related stuff and copyrighted logos and the like.

However, I can custom create something for you on my own if it's just a private transaction, and we're doing it as a tribute.

Again, thanks for your interest!
Noel Leas - [nleas at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 2:54:57 pm EDT from 216.193.139.129

Off-topic> Forgive the double post, but check out what I just stumbled across via a Facebook link. I am really hoping this is not true...

http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=124464403495&h=qYVqE&u=QY11Y&ref=mf
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 1:46:30 pm EDT from 99.22.68.150

Brook> "Umh... What does anybody else think of Gregs latest ramble?

Just came about it and, true story or not, it seems like... something..."

I read it, and found it interesting, in a 'whoa, holy f***, you don't see that happen every day' kind of way. Which makes me wonder if it did actually happen like that, or if Greg exaggerated a bit.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 1:33:57 pm EDT from 99.22.68.150

I think it was Christine Morgan who wrote a "What if?" story whose premise was, what if Goliath had chosen to remain with the eggs after the massacre, rather than ask the Magus to cast his spell once more. If I remember correctly (I haven't read it in years), Demona returned to Goliath and it was his presence, his forgiveness of her actions, the understanding that the plan was to get the humans out, never to kill off the clan, that prevented Demona from feeling all the bitterness that have made her who she was in the series. Basically, the action having been posed and the consequences lived, accompanied by the forgiveness, allowed Demona to feel remorse and to get over it eventually.

If the massacre had never happened, this means Demona would still live with the desire to get rid of the humans (not so much kill them at that point than make them go away). It would also mean that the humans would never learn to appreciate the gargoyles for who they are, and would still resent them and take them for granted, which would do nothing to alleviate Demona's desire to be rid of them. If the massacre didn't happen, something else of the kind would, eventually.

In the story, she was a good mother. She had to be, being the only adult female gargoyle of the entire clan. In a situation with no massacre, the job is shared between all the clan, so she would probably not have had a particular desire other than see all the eggs hatching and giving life to a new generation of gargoyles, and to protect them (just as she protected the Trio when Mary threw a stick at Brooklyn's face). Mothering itself... I honestly don't see her as the "baby" type. Perhaps when the hatchlings would get around the equivalent of age 4 or 5 when they communicate completely and are like knowledge sponges.

(This is from the POV of a mother of 2 boys, age 2 and 4...)
Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois - [kanthara at gmail dot com]
I kick ass and take names.
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 1:24:35 pm EDT from 208.84.104.226

Brook> I think her reasoning may be oddly similar to Goliath's. A single-parent gargoyle would be an almost unheard of thing. I don't think the fact that Demona helped to cause the Wyvern Massacre means she is any less devestated by its consequences than Goliath does. I think she has just enough presence of mind to realize that if she kills the Castle Wyvern refugees, it will make her responsible for raising 36 young gargoyles alone and she just can't handle that now.

I;m not saying it makes her OK, but since Goliath did almost the same thing (the only difference being that he had slightly more reason to believe that Katherine might actually krrp her word and care for his children), I don't think that alone makes her an irredeemably horrible person.
Demonskrye - [<---Breaking the Rules at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 1:18:51 pm EDT from 146.115.115.33

"The last time she'd seen them, they were still gargoyle-haters, so her natural assumption would be that they were taking the eggs away for some horrible purpose."

You can say it.

WE ALL KNOW WHAT SHE THOUGHT THEY THOUGHT!!

"Omelette!"

Anyways, I'm REALLY interrested on Gregs thoughts on this. The scene always struck me as one of the more unintentionally dull scenes of the show. Demona COULD have killed them, but she didn't. Why exactly? Was she longing for her (and the rest of the clans = eggs) death? Was she horrified? Did she not care?
Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 1:11:58 pm EDT from 84.191.247.146

Demona as a mother> I'm very hesitant to speculate about how Demona would have fared as a mother had the Wyvern Massacre never occurred, mostly because what I find interesting about Demona is that she is a complex character and not just "the bad gargoyle" from the day she hatched. I will admit that she has a rather disturbing instinct for self preservation at the potential expense of others, but I think that is partly linked to the fact that somewhere very deep down, she at least realizes that her plan to rid her clan of the humans has spiraled out of control and that if anyone found out what she had done, it would result in her banishment at least and potentially destroy her relationship with Goliath. I don't know if this would be as much of an issue in her duties as a mother. Yes, she abandoned the eggs, but so did Goliath.

I think a big factor would be why the Wyvern Massacre never happened; if Demona had never started planning it or if she did have the plan, but never carried it through to the end. The answer would probably say a lot about this hypothetical Demona and how she might act towards her children. I think the much more likely possibility than her being either a "good mother" or a "bad mother" is that she would be somewhere in between. She might still be a bad influence on her kids when it came to humans, but I could also see her being fiercely protective of the hatchlings and genuinely loving them.

It's possible that Demona and Angela would not be close under these circumstances, but I think that would have as much to do with Demona having over thirty kids and Angela having over thirty moms to potentially bond with as anything else.
Demonskrye - [<---Breaking the Rules at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 11:58:18 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

Demona might have even been unwilling to take on the responsibilities of a clan mother. Remember the scene in "City of Stone Part One" where she sees Princess Katharine, the Magus, and Tom loading up the eggs in the cart and leaving with them? Demona wasn't present when Katharine and the Magus realized the error of their ways and that they'd treated the gargoyles badly. The last time she'd seen them, they were still gargoyle-haters, so her natural assumption would be that they were taking the eggs away for some horrible purpose. And yet, instead of going to the aid of the clan's future offspring - the last survivors besides herself of the Wyvern Massacre - she simply watches the humans taking them away, doing nothing.

(As I've mentioned before, I have a suspicion that some of Demona's unacknowledged guilt over the Wyvern Massacre includes her inaction over the eggs; she just let the humans "plunder" the rookery and made no effort to prevent it.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 7:58:31 am EDT from 4.244.213.68

I wonder if gargoyle hatchlings are as obnoxiously territorial as human siblings can be.

"Mine! Mine! Mine!"
"Will you stop touching me!"
"Moooooooom! He's lookin' at me!!!!"

Yeah, somehow I suspect Demona lacks the patience necessary for this. :P

35 days left until the 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, CA!
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"My wife and I have five children, and the reason why we have five childred is because we do not want SIX." - Bill Cosby
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 6:43:33 am EDT from 173.88.135.205

I think in part, one thing we need to consider is that Norman is a textbook sociopath. Demona, despite all her many faults, is far from a sociopath. Demona really does care about her child: she cares about every member of her species. She just despises and fears weakness and betrayal. Even Goliath, when he started to come more in line with her own thinking, she forgave almost instantly. Demona, I think really means it when she says she wants to make a perfect world for Gargoyles to live in, whether they want it or not. She's just a very irrational insecure person (gargoyle?).

Norman, on the other hand only cares about what Harry has to offer him. Harry's a social experiment, he's a shield to hide behind when Norman gets in trouble. Norman's 'good deeds' are nothing but what he says: serendipity. And because of his 'rational mind' he can't even recognize how the gaseous globulin green has affected him. He's too rational. Everything has mathematical value and conditions. (Even his love for his son.)

I doubt Demona would ever actively hide behind her daughter. Her willingness to throw the vial of poison was more in the heat of emotional desperation than anything (most of Demona's poor decisions come after she's failed and can't think of what to do next).

Whereas Norman's framing of Harry was pre-planned. He had time to think about it. He was fully aware of what he was doing. (Most of Norman's most insane decisions come from when he anticipates failure.) And I would actually go as far as to say that Norman does not love Harry. He's just invested too much into him at this point to pull out, he'd be losing 'money'. Harry is an asset.

I think for Demona, it's about emotional investment. Angela is a representation of Demona's history. Demona's main motivation in life is her passion, and Angela is that passion personified and made innocent. It's just given her one more thing to fight for. Another thing I want to add is that Demona on some level, recognizes that she's a bad person. Everything she does is a necessary evil. I think in part she lied to Angela about not know who she was for the same reason she bothered to lie to Goliath about what she'd (Demona) become: she knows it's wrong, but she can't help but be that way, it's all a necessary evil, it's all a result of her suffering while others have been living in either a paradise or purgatory. Where on the other hand Norman obsesses over his own cunning and the serendipity he's experienced in his life. He revels in who he is, and the Green Goblin persona only gives him more leeway to do so.
Aldrius
"There are certain advantages to being me." - Dumbledore
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 5:45:17 am EDT from 207.112.66.144

Umh... What does anybody else think of Gregs latest ramble?

Just came about it and, true story or not, it seems like... something...
Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 5:43:26 am EDT from 84.191.247.146

ALDRIUS> <<As a clan mother... she probably would have turned out more like an evil matriarch than anything I think. Probably something along the lines of Norman Osborn to Harry Osborn. Except less abusive (as in, not abusive at all) and more manipulative.>>

Very funny you should make that connection. Check out the question I posted in Ask Greg a few hours ago...

*** SPOILERS ***

You know, normally I don't do this, but this recent answer about Xanatos and Norman Osborn tickled me on a fanboy level:

"I think he would have been appalled at Norman's parental approach. He'd of course have to admire his business acumen and respect his machiavellian bent. But I find it hard to imagine the two has friends. "

The comparisons between Xanatos and Osborn are obviously easy. But comparing and contrasting Demona and Osborn seems to intrigue me a little more... especially on a parental level.

Now, I don't think it's a stretch to say that both of them love their children... albeit in a twisted, almost possessive way.

This is almost tough since we've gotten really only one episode of Demona and Angela ("The Reckoning") and several episodes of Norman and Harry... not to mention forty three years of comic books delving into them. But, for now, I think I'll stick to "Spectacular" in this topic.

Up front, one key difference is that Demona never got to be a parent. She met Angela for the first time when Angela was already an adult. Contrary to Norman, who raised Harry since birth but was never a good father to him.

Both Norman and Demona are willing to commit unspeakably horrible acts and rationalize them by saying they're in their children's best interests. In Demona's case, she cited protecting Angela in "Hunter's Moon Part Three" and Norman justified framing Harry because if he'd been sent to prison, who'd have made a man out of Harry.

Would Demona risk herself to protect Angela? We know she would. We've seen her do it. Would Norman risk his life to protect Harry? In the current comics, the answer is definitely no. In SSM, I'm... not sure. I'm really not.

I tend to think that both of them see their respective children as property. There are several instances of Norman treating Harry like property. And Demona did use the phrase "she belongs to me" when Thailog threatened Angela.

I definitely think Demona loves Angela more than Norman loves Harry (Hell, Norman doesn't even like his own kid). But even there, Demona was more than willing to risk Angela's life at the end of "Hunter's Moon Part Three" to escape... there was no guarantee Goliath would have been able to catch that vial.

Now, I realize I'm answering a lot of my own questions and I have my own interpretations here, but I'd be curious to read your thoughts here?

*** END SPOILERS ***
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 3:55:23 am EDT from 98.148.133.212

She might not have had any humans to blame for her personal problems, if she and her clan were in complete isolation, but in the first place, complete isolation is impossible (though the Avalon Clan came pretty close...), and in the second place, she still would have had potential scapegoats in the other gargoyles.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 3:43:43 am EDT from 74.205.192.14

I think there are a few too many factors to take into consideration when it comes to figuring out what kind of mother Demona would have been, or what it would have taken for her to accept responsibility for her actions at Wyvern.

I don't think Demona was particularly inclined to take responsibility for her actions at any point, but I also think it was more the severity of her failure when it came to the sacking of Wyvern. If one person had died from her mistake (especially if it was somebody she really cared about), I think she might have been more inclined to blame herself a little bit (though she probably wouldn't have). But the extreme circumstance evoked an extreme response. Also if Goliath had died, she wouldn't have had anybody to blame, I think a lot of her problems stem from the resentment she feels towards Goliath for not taking the clan with him. She had that easy scapegoat, that had a kernel of truth to it enough so that she could justify her anger.

Also, she's very inflexible. She's very quick to write things off as a lost cause, for example after Goliath ruins her plan to sack Wyvern, she's very quick to just move on to her next plan. (Saving her own hide) Rather than rethinking the original plan and trying to get as many Gargoyles out of Wyvern as she can.

As a clan mother... she probably would have turned out more like an evil matriarch than anything I think. Probably something along the lines of Norman Osborn to Harry Osborn. Except less abusive (as in, not abusive at all) and more manipulative.

But really, in what context is she a clan mother? Did she and the Captain just never betray Katherine? Did their plan succeed? That's a pretty important distinction. With the humans around, she'd probably just continue to resent them and try to come up with more plans to get rid of them, and yes, neglect her children in the process (or try to use them to her advantage). Without the humans around, I actually think her and Goliath would have made pretty normal Gargoyle parents. She'd have no scapegoat for her personal problems, and she'd have been forced to deal with them.

But that's just my opinion, I'm probably way off or I'm just retreading over well-covered ground.
Aldrius
"There are certain advantages to being me." - Dumbledore
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 3:13:24 am EDT from 207.112.66.144

Demona:"Okay, now children, repeat after me...Humans are our enemies!"

Yeah, good thing she didn't raise the Avalon gargoyles.

You know, I'm not sure Goliath would be that great of a father if he were still at Wyvern. He would be the leader of a large clan, I doubt he would have had much time for his kids, and probably wouldn't have given any of them personal attention. He also kind of already abandoned them in "Awakening", though we can't really be too hard on him for that.
Purplegoldfish
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 2:53:54 am EDT from 64.148.57.59

I wonder if Demona was always so unwilling to take responsibility for her actions, or if the massacre and the sleep spell on Goliath pushed her over the edge? It seemed to me that she was about to own up to her part in the massacre and the sleep spell ("What have I...?") before rationalizing that the humans were to blame. ("What have THEY done to you?")

Either way, I'm pretty sure that it was already in her nature not to learn from her mistakes, so I don't think she would have set a good example for the next generation.

Besides, I don't think she cared that much for the eggs anyway. She didn't even harass Tom, Katharine, and the Magus for stealing them. (Well, as far as Demona was concerned they were stealing them; she couldn't have known that Goliath had entrusted the eggs to them.)
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 1:28:33 am EDT from 74.205.192.14

In an effort to start up a conversation here.

Demona as a parent. Had the massacre not taken place, do you think she'd have been a good clan mother?

I tend to think... no. I think she'd have been more concerned about her authority as second-in-command and the power that came with her position than taking the time to raise the eggs. I think it's a responsibility she'd have shunted off to others. Not even necessarily consciously, but more along the lines of a lack of interest.

I doubt the hatchling who would be Angela and Demona would have gravitated towards one another.

Demona may not have been the genocidal villain she'd later become yet, but she still had a darker nature than most of the rest. She had a lust for power. She wanted Goliath to take the position of leader from Hudson with herself as second in command, not to mention her dabbling in sorcery with the Archmage.

I just can't see Demona, under any circumstances being a good mother to any of the hatchlings. Yes, she loves Angela now... but she was still willing to endanger her life by tossing that vial in "Hunter's Moon."

I'm not saying she'd be abusive, but I am thinking... neglectful.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
posted @ Fri, Jul 17, 2009 12:32:43 am EDT from 98.148.133.212

Random Gargoyles fact of the day: the first full gig for Grammy/Emmy Award-winning composer Michael Giacchino (Lost, Star Trek, Up, Ratatouille, Incredibles) was the Gargoyles game for Sega Genesis. According to his bio, he was at Disney - Burbank and DreamWorks about the same times as Greg (albeit different departments). I wonder if they ever ran into each other.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]
posted @ Thu, Jul 16, 2009 10:56:38 pm EDT from 216.250.163.157

Noel> Wow those look great! I may see if I could get a couple of those shirts :D I have a question: do you have to have special permission to make those kind of shirts? Like for example: if I wanted to make WWE-related shirts, would I have to have special permission to do so?
VoLpE - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
"I am the Parcheesi!" ~ Christian, WWE
posted @ Thu, Jul 16, 2009 5:21:49 pm EDT from 65.14.83.34

Harvester of Eyes: Awwwwww, thanks so much! I appreciated your interest last year.

If you guys are interested, I have some new "Gargoyles" related tees on my website: http://www.cafepress.com/darkcreatures/

Sections: Geek Chic - Gargoyles

These include:
A full Phoenix Gate design
Shadowy Gargoyle figure with the caption "I Believe" (from the comic)
Funny Gargoyle with a "New York City" white tee, in a tribute/parody of John Lennon.
Silhouette of Goliath and Elisa kissing with the caption, "I Kissed A 'Goyle ... and I Liked It!"
Quarrymen logo - "Join The Quarrymen Today! (Note: No one with an IQ over 45 need apply.)
"What happens at the Gathering stays at the Gathering!" (in black or white)
And many more!!

Best Wishes,
Noel Leas
Noel Leas - [nleas at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:45:35 pm EDT from 208.73.177.89

Hey guys! Since we've been on a Coco/Staghart convo recently, I thought I'd let you guys know that you should check out Kanthara's DeviantArt page; she just did a skecth of Coco and it's *faints* gorgeous XD

These are some pieces I did a while back w/ these two; hope you like them :D

http://volpe-de-fuego.deviantart.com/art/GaRgOyLeS-LoNdOn-cLaN-FuNnY-88821850#

http://volpe-de-fuego.deviantart.com/art/HP-and-the-Peculiar-Patronus-93550783

I'm not looking for any critiques or anything like that, seeing as some parts were a bit rushed due to a deadline I had to make. But I just thought I'd share these with you all since we've been talking about the London Clan recently ^^ I'm super-excited about seeing Old Pog, Lunette and the rest of the members again :D
VoLpE - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
"I am the Parcheesi!" ~ Christian, WWE
posted @ Thu, Jul 16, 2009 4:13:17 pm EDT from 65.14.83.34

For the Gathering of the Gargoyles fundraising again!

An 8.5"x11" glossy print of my piece "blam.", featuring Hunter from the Bad Guys comic, is signed and ready to go to your house for the meager starting price of $5! (find it here: http://kanthara.deviantart.com/art/blam-93406276)

The Demona with the sword, the unclaimed commission from last year's SDCC, is now up for auction for the mere starting price of $10. Guys, this is THE ORIGINAL! My inked art on 9"x12" bristol board, signed of course. Get it!!!

(if you don't know what I'm talking about, see it here: http://kanthara.deviantart.com/art/SDCC-Demona-Commission-II-93409693)

There are also three more things up for grabs: a Gambit ATC by the talented CK Russel (who makes really cool X-Men cards), a print by Mary Caldera of an original character and one by Mike Rieger, also an original character.

Find all the auctions here: http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/gargoyles-convention

Thanks for looking and bidding!
Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois - [kanthara at gmail dot com]
I kick ass and take names.
posted @ Thu, Jul 16, 2009 1:04:09 pm EDT from 208.84.104.226

Litwolf> The one I'm thinking of is in issue #8, on page 10, panel 3. In case I counted wrong, it the one with Griff "Why do these two look like Goliath?" and Lex replying "Long story." It's unfortunate, because Staghart/Amp is half off the page and upside-down and not all that large in the panel either, so it's not a tremendously useful image.

Mind you, I may be thinking about this in a different way than you are. I do like the design, but what I'm looking at is whether his head looks dimensional and is in correct perspective, if his snout looks to be the right length, whether or not his jaw and forehead are too big, and so on. Looking over the issue again, there are a few other panels where he is drawn pretty well. But that panel is still my favorite drawing of him.

I can understand why he ends up off-model so easily. Deer are pretty tough to draw.
Demonskrye - [<---Breaking the Rules at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Thu, Jul 16, 2009 8:06:19 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

Demonskyre/Patrick> Thanks very much for your replies :D Much appreciated! Patrick, if you don't mind, I sent you an e-mail with inquiries of conventions so whenever it's convenient for you, I'd appreciate your help ^^ Thanks again!
VoLpE - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
"I didn't see any pie...I saw a lot of pie CRUST..." ~ Jerry "The King" Lawler, WWE
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 11:59:37 pm EDT from 75.74.173.12

Disney has never given us any issues with the convention's name and they are most certainly aware of it, having donated surplus items to be used for giveaways to us several times in the past.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 11:14:39 pm EDT from 173.88.135.205

Amp> I also agree that his best appearance was at the end of #7 ; gotta love that full bodyshot

Gargoyles Convention> Was there any problem with having the title "Gargoyles" in the convention's name? Since it's the name of a copyrighted series, I wasn't sure if there were any issues involving that in the beginning.
VoLpE - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
"I didn't see any pie...I saw a lot of pie CRUST..." ~ Jerry "The King" Lawler, WWE
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 10:47:49 pm EDT from 75.74.173.12

Stagheart > In my opinion, the only panel where he really looked right was the one at the end of #7. I sorta feel the same way about Coco.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 9:52:01 pm EDT from 75.64.82.30

Demonskrye > Just out of curiosity, may I ask which panel is the one you think Stagheart looks best in? He is one of my favorites of all the London Clan because I thought he looked so great, so natural (I say that because I have the feel some of these animal-looking gargoyles will probably be a challenge to design). He looks better put together to me than Una.

Just curious as to your views.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 9:44:19 pm EDT from 173.69.136.16

Now this is the kind of conversation I can sink my teeth into. I heard if you play that line of dialogue backwards, Elisa says "The walrus was Paul."

Noel Leas: Sorry to hear you won't make it. One of my favorite purchases from last year was the "Xanatos/Burnett 2008" button. Even though the election is past, I still plan to wear it this year. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"'In the end?' Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends..." -Dr. Manhattan ("Watchmen")
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 6:30:17 pm EDT from 70.177.182.14

alright, alright, I give in lol. I'm starting to hear "are the first" now, though I still do hear "prefers" more, but since closed captioning, and Greg W says differently, I'll go with it.
Purplegoldfish
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 5:11:10 pm EDT from 64.148.57.59

Hey, everyone!

I know I haven't posted in a while, but I wanted to let you know that I won't be able to attend the Gathering this year, due to several factors: In addition to financial reasons, I also have health issues when it comes to L.A. smog, as some of you know. But at all the Gatherings I've been to (since 1997!), I've had some of the best times of my life, and I'll cherish those memories always.

I hope that you all have a great time, and I hope to see you at a future Gathering, wherever that may be.

Best wishes,
Noel Leas
Noel Leas - [nleas at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 4:37:54 pm EDT from 208.73.177.89

Volpe> If you look at the disclaimers at the bottom of the Gathering website pages, you'll see that it states that the Gathering is not affiliated with the Walt Disney Company. Since the Gathering is not a for-profit event, Disney doesn't seem to mind its existence, as it's basically free advertising for one of their properties. I think the only reason anyone would need or want to ask Disney for any kind of permission is if they wanted to be the official "Gargoyles" convention. But since there is no competition and Disney isn't doing much of anything with the property right now, I don't know that there would be any benefit to being officially sanctioned.
Demonskrye - [<---Breaking the Rules at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 1:59:17 pm EDT from 146.115.115.33

That last annoymous was from me. Sorry!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 1:50:03 pm EDT from 75.156.190.146

PGF> I heard the line and It's definatly "The First," although it does SOUND like "Perversed". It's "The First".
Anonymous
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 1:33:14 pm EDT from 75.156.190.146

Hey I have a question, did the staff have to get special permission from the Disney Co. in order to organize the convention? I would think that since it's in honor and tribute to a specific title it produced, special permission would be required. I'm just trying to understand how the whole convention thing works before I decide to try and tackle a Gathering of my own next year.
VoLpE - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
"I am the Parcheesi!" ~ Christian, WWE
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 1:13:57 pm EDT from 75.74.173.12

Malunis - Welcome! Are you new to the s8 comment room? I see you twittering about Gargoyles all the time. I don't have Wiki admin access, but I'm sure someone will turn it on soon.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 9:59:50 am EDT from 216.250.163.157

Hedgecock> As Landon said, I think the comic had a number of strikes against it and while I agree that Hedgecock taking too long on the art was one problem, it certainly wasn't the only one and may not have even been the biggest one. I was not a huge fan of Hedgecock's artwork to begin with, but I was pleased to see how he improved over the course of the book and I did like a lot of the new characters he designed, Coco especially. (I liked Staghart too, but there's only one panel of him where I feel like the whole design comes together just right.)

I doubt I really have to say this as I generally believe you guys are all nice and courteous people, but if you are going to the Gathering and plan to attend a panel or other event where Hedgecock will be, please remember to be polite and respectful. The only reason I say this is that I was once in the audience during a panel at another convention where a group of people decided to take out their frustrations for something that had happened with that particular property on the guest, even though it really wasn't the guy's fault. Imagine if the Gathering had a guest who happened to have written and episode of "The Goliath Chronicles" and the fans decided to air all of their anger about TGC then and there and you'll get a rough idea of how it went. It was extremely embarrassing and uncomfortable to watch and I eventually had to leave.

Again, I'm fairly sure this will not be an issue, but it can't hurt to remind yourselves to focus on the positive things Hedgecock has done for "Gargoyles."
Demonskrye - [<---Breaking the Rules at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 9:10:44 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

The closed captioning has been known to be incorrect and/or to omit words entirely, presumably in an effort to keep up with the pace of the spoken dialog.

37 days left until the 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, CA!

Also, the Hilton Los Angeles has moved the hotel reservations cut-off date ahead to August 10st, meaning a bit more time to make those room reservations!

The deadline for pre-registration remains at July 31st.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 6:48:00 am EDT from 173.88.135.205

To kinda add to the conversation here; I also believe "perverse" was not used in that sentence. Dunno, when I heard it, it was pretty clear to me. Not to be rude, of course. n_n;
Malunis - [malunis dot t at gmail dot com]
"Did you say 'THAT human' or 'that human'? Oh, nevermind, I'll figure it out. This just might be fun after all..." - Puck
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 6:20:30 am EDT from 75.64.198.144

PGFish > The examples you've chosen of Elisa saying "first" all have the word "first" appearing at the end of a line (where it would receive more enunciation, explaining why you hear the "t" sound in those instances), plus she's talking slower in those examples.

Also, it CAN'T be "the corrupted prefers"--it would have to be "the corrupted prefer." "The corrupted" is plural here, and thus should be treated like "they" or "we" when the accompanying verb is conjugated. You wouldn't say "they prefers", you would say "they prefer".

I'm with Greg W and the closed captioning. It's "are the first".
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 6:18:54 am EDT from 75.64.82.30

I can hear "corrupted prefers" with an effort (hell, I can hear "corrupt are perverse" if I try), but I still feel that the dialogue is definitly "corrupt are the first". That is what I hear, that makes more sense grammatically, that is what Greg W says it is and that is what closed captioning says it is. That is more than enough for me.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 6:04:15 am EDT from 70.230.173.149

Landon> Now it sounds like she says, " I guess the corrupt are perverse to believe. . ." haha
Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 3:54:02 am EDT from 70.115.200.18

Uhh, not sure if I'm doing this correctly, but I am commenting to gain writing access on the GargWiki. My username there is Malunis_T. Or Malunis T, apparently.
Malunis - [malunis dot t at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 3:38:22 am EDT from 75.64.198.144

Purplegoldfish - Here's the dialog taken off the DVD and slowed down, if it helps: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~thom1576/gargoyles/gargoyles-protection-dialog.mp3
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 3:17:49 am EDT from 216.250.163.157

ack! I'm still not hearing it! captions have been known to be wrong sometimes *ahem* I refuse to admit I am hearing words that aren't there! lol

here I found another example of Elisa saying "first" at 5:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBWD0fQNbWM&feature=PlayList&p=5006B2A2CCE0920E&index=149

She clearly pronounces the "t" at the end of the word, and she says it in the same way as she does in "The Cage"

I just realized how pathetic it is that I know individual words within quotes heh o_0
Purplegoldfish
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 2:58:05 am EDT from 64.148.57.59

Purple Goldfish> I checked the subtitles on that episode from the official DVD realease. Elisa is captioned as saying "The corrupt are the first to believe that somebody else can be corrupted"
Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 2:49:42 am EDT from 70.115.200.18

landon>Yes I know greg is there. I'll be at the pannel, if it does'nt interfear with some other things im involved with at comic con this year.
shara - [jeanie54_2000 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 2:36:14 am EDT from 76.170.154.47

ah darn, if Greg W is against me I know I won't win this one lol

Sorry though, whatever she says or whatever she's supposed to say, I hear "prefers" I will not back down! lol ;)

okay, at around 4:09, listen to how Elisa/Salli R. pronounces the word "first" in The Cage. It's very clear and sounds nothing like what she says in "Protection": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6SuncqZWAg&feature=PlayList&p=5006B2A2CCE0920E&index=56

See, this is what insomnia does to you-makes you debate stupid unimportant things ;P
Purplegoldfish
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 2:35:14 am EDT from 64.148.57.59

I'm with the latter Greg d: . . . Elisa says it crazy quick, though d:
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 2:11:19 am EDT from 70.190.63.238

I just listened to it again. It's definitely "are the first".
Greg Weisman
<<THE GATHERING OF THE GARGOYLES - Over Fifty Special Guests and Counting...
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 2:00:11 am EDT from 68.183.95.134

PURPLEGOLDFISH> It's definitely "prefers".
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 1:53:18 am EDT from 98.148.133.212

mmkay lol I'm having a little debate with Matt in the gargwiki about a quote. Instead of going back and forth, and since I'm incredibly stubborn I'm wondering what other people hear.

From Protection, I hear:

Elisa: I guess the corrupt(ed?) prefers to believe that somebody else can be corrupted.

what Matt hears:
I guess the corrupt are the first to believe that somebody else can be corrupted.

I listened to it several times and I"m pretty certain it's "prefers". It could sound like either if you listen quickly but I don't hear a "t" in "first"

here's the clip-the quotes comes at around 5:30. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAFZDk916xY&feature=PlayList&p=5006B2A2CCE0920E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=53

And whatever Greg quoted in his rambles, even he says they aren't always 100% accurate.
Purplegoldfish
posted @ Wed, Jul 15, 2009 1:40:53 am EDT from 64.148.57.59

Whoops, no dates. The Spectacular Spider-Man panel is on Sunday and Coraline is on Friday: http://www.comic-con.org/cci/cci09_prog_sun.php
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at gmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jul 14, 2009 11:25:26 pm EDT from 216.250.163.157

I don't think Hedgecock deserves quite that much blame. He sped up towards the end and Disney caused just as many delays with their 6 week+ approval turn around. And he created the designs for Constance, Staghart, and Shari, so he's forever an important part of the universe.

Shara - Greg is there as well:

10:00-11:00 The Spectacular Spider-Man— This Q&A session—with supervising producer Greg Weisman (Gargoyles), supervising producer/supervising director Vic Cook (Hellboy: Blood and Iron), character designer Sean "Cheeks" Galloway (Hellboy animated films), the voice of Spider-Man, Josh Keaton, and the voice of Sha Shan Nguyen Kelly Hu (Scorpion King), and the voice of the Vulture, Robert Englund (A Nightmare on Elm Street)—highlights the animated series that hearkens back to the webslinger's junior year in high school, when a not-so-typical 16-year-old must conceal his secret identity, endure the pressures of teenage life, and combat never-before-seen supervillains. Based on Marvel Entertainment's popular superhero, The Spectacular Spider-Man is produced by Culver Entertainment, a Sony Pictures Television Company, premiering its second season on Disney XD on June 22. Room 6A

And he'll be signing every day with David Hedgecock: http://www.slgcomic.com/Comic-Con-Signing-Schedule_df_470.html
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at gmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jul 14, 2009 11:22:40 pm EDT from 216.250.163.157

for any keith david fans he will be at comic con

10:30-11:30 - Coraline — Visionary director and screenwriter Henry Selick (The Nightmare Before Christmas) and Newbery Medal-winning author Neil Gaiman discuss the making of the LAIKA/Focus Features 2009 breakout animated hit film Coraline. In celebration of Universal Studio's Blu-ray Hi-Def and DVD release of the critically acclaimed stop-motion film, Selick and Gaiman will be joined by lead animator and LAIKA CEO/president Travis Knight, producer Bill Mechanic (CEO of Pandemonium and producer of Dark Water and The New World), character fabrication supervisor Georgina Hayns (Corpse Bride), and voice talent Keith David (Crash). Panelists will offer an in-depth, behind-the-scenes glimpse at how this astonishing and suspenseful adventure—the first stop-motion animated feature originally produced in stereoscopic 3D—was painstakingly brought to life. The panel is moderated by IGN movies/DVD editor-in-chief Eric Moro. Room 6A
shara - [jeanie54_2000 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jul 14, 2009 9:19:05 pm EDT from 76.170.154.47

My thoughts exactly, Todd. I think if the comics hadn't suffered so many delays (thanks to Hedgecock), their sales might have remained steady (or even increased) and we might have gotten all of Clan-Building as individual issues.

Plus, if the sales had remained steady, SLG might have found it worthwhile to renew the license for individual issues and we'd be getting even more Gargoyles stories instead of ending with these last two trades.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Jul 14, 2009 7:49:17 pm EDT from 75.64.82.30

After checking the guests page, I'm mildly surprised that David Hedgecock was invited. I had expected his past failures to meet deadlines (with disastrous results for the comic) to make him a "persona non gratis" with the fandom. Is the spirit of forgiveness at work?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Jul 14, 2009 6:43:04 pm EDT from 4.244.209.221

Completely and utterly unrelated:

Has everyone read the guests' bios over on the Gathering of the Gargoyles website?
I will confess, I hadn't until now and they are so utterly hilarious and cool that I'm pointing them out now for anyone who wants to be amused by the wit of the guests this year.
Mara - [Link to guests' bios!]
(Just don't read mine, it's falseified.
posted @ Tue, Jul 14, 2009 4:23:48 pm EDT from 69.148.196.170

The 1st review is out for the Spectacular Spider-Man season 1 DVD set and it's glowing: http://wfdvdreport.com/index.php?action=fullnews&id=1019 It'll be out July 28 and it's not too expensive either: http://www.amazon.com/Spectacular-Spider-Man-Complete-First-Season/dp/B002A5EBLW
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at gmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jul 14, 2009 1:13:53 pm EDT from 128.101.32.234

Landon> To clarify, I totally did not mean that as a knock against Greg Weisman. What I meant is that Greg puts a higher priority on being able to use his writing ability to provide for his family and himself than getting the "Gargoyles" stories out there, which is fine and nothing that I would not expect from any professional writer. I don't feel like I am entitled to any more "Gargoyles" stories - free or otherwise. I'm happy for any I can get, but I realize it's a privilege, not a right.
Demonskrye - [<---Breaking the Rules at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Tue, Jul 14, 2009 12:39:23 pm EDT from 146.115.115.33

Demonskrye - 'Heck, Greg Weisman has higher priorities than "Gargoyles." If he didn't, we would probably all get to read the entire story of the Gargoyles universe for free.'

Not related to your point, but I don't think this is a fair statement. Greg has stated in the past that he hasn't written a Gargoyles novel because he hasn't been offered a publishing deal. The reason he gave is that he can't justify the time spent in writing for free.

I personally think it's a little more than that: a professional writer loses some integrity when they start giving away large works for free. In order to make a living his craft has to maintain value. If he gives away books for free, suddenly his professional work is less valuable and he's technically part-amateur.

Another way of looking at it: in the amount of time Greg has spent answering questions on here for free and the time he's spent at conventions and writing the comics for almost free, he could have written several novels. I don't think we should disparage or doubt his priorities. Nevertheless, your initial point is sound: I'm sure Greg would be the first to say he has higher priorities than Gargoyles (i.e. family, etc).
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at gmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jul 14, 2009 11:54:41 am EDT from 128.101.32.234

I doubt there is anyone in the world who doesn't have at least some priorities that are higher than "Gargoyles," the Gathering, or any fandom or convention. Heck, Greg Weisman has higher priorities than "Gargoyles." If he didn't, we would probably all get to read the entire story of the Gargoyles universe for free. Some of us do try to make "Gargoyles" and in some cases the Gathering a priority in our lives, for any number of reasons. Some of us don't, for any number of reasons. Fact is, when the show was on the air with new episodes, the only way you had to make "Gargoyles" a priority was to ensure that you could be in front of the TV when it was on, or learn to program your VCR. For better or for worse, it does take a little more effort now to support "Gargoyles." Even the fact that I say "support" indicates a change. When the show was new, we weren't "supporting" it; we were just watching it.

Here's a question for Gathering-goers, whether you've been to them all, been to a couple, attended just one, or will be going to your first in 2009: What are your top three reasons for attending the Gathering?

I don't think there is any one convention format that works perfectly for any fandom and all of its members. There are benefits and drawbacks to big cons, small cons, online cons, stationary cons, traveling cons, narrow focus cons, broad focus cons, a couple of related panels within a con, and anything else you can think of. There are probably some people out there who think San Diego ComicCon is THE ideal convention. I've been twice and it certainly does have its advantages: there is a lot to do and see, some aspect of it will probably appeal to anyone who would go to such an event, huge numbers of interesting celebrities show up, and there's stuff offered there that you can't get elsewhere. On the other hand, it is also huge and tremendously crowded. Lines for a lot of popular events and attractions are very long. You could be at the con at the same time as someone you know - either from the internet or in person - and never meet up with them. You have to make a lot of choices about what to see and what to skip. The city can get pretty crowded and if you aren't at a nearby hotel, travel can get nasty.

I think the only thing we know for certain is that the current model that we have in the Gathering isn't working for "Gargoyles" right now. That's not to say that it hasn't worked in the past, couldn't work in the future, or that the staff did anything wrong. It's also not to say that the current format doesn't have its highlights. It is a small convention with a narrow focus, so you are likely to know people who are attending or at least know that they share a couple of your interests. The guest to fan ratio is excellent. And even as someone who hasn't attended, I can see that the staff works hard every year to put on a great show. But conventions do need to at least pay for themselves and if the Gathering is not doing that, then changes have to be made. Which I why I keep suggesting something on a smaller scale or maybe less traditional. No option is going to be perfect. A few "Gargoyles" guests and panels within a larger con may not be as much of a draw for fans, but it does offer con-goers more to see and do and cut down the amount of organizing "Gargoyles" fans would have to do themselves. An online con would be very different, would prohibit certain events, and could exclude some less tech savvy fans or fans without regular computer access. But it could be a lot cheaper, it wold be more accessible to fans who can't afford to travel, and it coud potentially be a lot of fun.
Demonskrye - [<---Breaking the Rules at The Ink and Pixel Club]
posted @ Tue, Jul 14, 2009 10:49:32 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

Happy Bastille Day, everyone! Though I'm not too certain whom to address that wish among the Gargoyles Universe cast; although Paris has provided the setting for a few scenes ("Sanctuary", the opening flashback for "Hunter's Moon Part Three", and "Bad Guys" #3, both present-day and flashback), we haven't met that many French characters in the series. Mostly Demona pretending to be French (and the less said about her assumed accent, the better). And I doubt she bothers observing any human holidays, in any case.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Jul 14, 2009 8:19:22 am EDT from 4.244.214.102

@ Ed: True that.

Though, the question springs to mind, and even if just to mine, what would actually have taken you to attend, if the money and space reason would have been taken care of.
Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!
posted @ Tue, Jul 14, 2009 7:24:36 am EDT from 84.191.202.247

Why am I not attending the 13th annual Gathering of the Gargoyles convention? Funny story actually... well, more sad than funny... My sister and I planned on going this year for our very first time. In fact, we started saving our money a year in advance and we were doing well to get enough. This was when we thought the convention would be in June, as it has usually been in June in the past. Then we found out it is at the end of August. Which is the same week most California students, college/highschool/or whatever school, start school. We were both very sad to find out that it wasn't money or location that kept us from going. It was the changed date. On my birthday too. It's kinda like it's mocking me or something. So yeah. The August date is the reason we had to back out (much to our dismay). Very depressed about it.
Charisma82
"The alien mothership is in orbit here. If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." -Zap Brannigan
posted @ Tue, Jul 14, 2009 4:18:48 am EDT from 64.128.148.204

I watched the show from beginning to end as a child though notably I found the Goliath Chronicles not quite as great as the second season. Of course as I more recently learned from purchasing Season 1 and Season 2, Volume 1 was that Season 2 was four times as long as 1. It is by far one of my favorite animated shows to this day. My appreciation deepened with the years and I got chills literally hearing the theme music again after all these years.

The familiar howls, the shedding of stone skin, the shift in mannerisms from Xanatos, the strange ties between Demona and Macbeth, and that's just for starters. I attribute my interest in Shakespeare to the show though of course in your commentaries you certainly pointed out the influence.

Originally I only had a time compressed movie version of Awakening though when watching Season 1 there are notable differences, scenes that weren't there before or scenes that explain certain dialogue. The in-between moments only get mentions in the VHS film version whereas the DVD... the whole deal.

Plenty of outstanding episodes and the voice actors as I have always said are crucial in that while countless others craft the universe, you also need the voices to bring the atmosphere. Plenty of Trek alumni among others and of course who could forget Jeff Bennett for all the voices he did including Brooklyn and Owen though of course Owen's magical counterpart Puck... to that we owe Brent Spiner.

Enter Macbeth left a question in mind for me as a child that of course went unanswered until City of Stone, which is arguably among my favorites because there we are taken back to what happen to Demona after the Massacre. Of course there are also the Weird Sisters and what happen to the eggs after Goliath joined the others in the sleep spell.

There are so many different things to be said for this show and of course I am indebted to your creativity and imagination. As show it had no peer as it was not based on any existing material though plenty of things as you have said in commentary influenced it.

It is a true gem stone and like the episode where Macbeth reads Merlin's scrolls to Broadway or the episode where Hudson inspires a new book for Jeffrey Robbins... I learned never underestimate the magic of words.
Michael - [Revan2286 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jul 14, 2009 2:08:50 am EDT from 72.88.164.127

Karine> "So there. Bad economy means lots of people have less money, true."

Unfortunately, even though I've recently gotten a raise at my job, I've got too many things (planning to possibly buy a car within the next year, paying for an acting class, etc.) that is blocking my attending the con.

So I guess I fall into that 'lots of people with less money' category.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Tue, Jul 14, 2009 1:22:15 am EDT from 99.30.142.38

Why haven't I attended so far? A combanation of three issues mainly: money, my mom, and my boss.

Fortunately, all of these issues have now been more or less resolved. My mother was commited by the state a few years ago, with my new second job, while I'm not exactly upper class, I'll be making considerably more than I have for the last few years. And since I've learned that one can live on $5000 a year, I can certainly make the necessery cutbacks to afford the trip. That only leaves the issue of vacation time. As a temp at Winegard, I'm allowed to miss three days a year. If I become a regular employee within the next year, I'll have enough vacation time to make the trip. And if my other boss won't let me take the time off? (As happened last year) Well, I'm in a better position than I was last year. Last year, losing my job with him would have meant losing the house. Next year, it would only mean a small amount of belt-tightening.
Spen
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:08:40 pm EDT from 66.43.205.110

Wait, there was an online Gathering? When was that?

I would totally support an online Gathering/Gargoyle convention. That would be much more feasable for me (and others I imagine) to attend. Sure you would loose the people who dont go onto the Net very often but I think it could be fun and doable.

Though Ive never heard of one before we started talking about it here. What usually happens at an online convention?
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 9:15:31 pm EDT from 173.69.136.16

Greg Weisman> I'd be honored and thrilled to be a panelist. Thank you for the offer. What would I need to do?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 9:03:59 pm EDT from 70.237.196.242

Here's the full list of what's off-limits to filming at the Gathering:

The "Bad Guys" lieka reel at Opening Ceremonies
The adults only panels on Saturday evening, including the Blue Mug
The Art Show (no still photography is allowed, either)
The Mug-a-Guest sessions

The remainder is left to the discretion of the panelists presenting. If someone asks for no recording or photography at any point, we ask that their wishes be respected.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 8:19:34 pm EDT from 173.88.135.205

Support the Gathering! Buy the ebay art!

*ahem* Enough of the plug. On to other stuff!

Siryn> There was a while ago an online Gathering. It had chats set up and I think a guest or two but it had writing and art contests and just hanging out. It was fun. I submitted three stories, one for each category as I recall. Anyone else remember this OL "Con"?

Just so everyone knows, I asked and the answer for taking vids is you can video tape anything but Mug-A-Guests, Opening Ceremonies, and the Blue Mug. Staff, if I got this wrong, please add whatever else it was. They said that anyone else who doesn't mind their panel filmed, go for it.
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 8:02:57 pm EDT from 71.94.79.73

I'll put my head above the parapet (already did actually, but what the heck) to basically reaffirm what Karine said from the other side of the line, which is that I'm someone for whom the Gathering just isn't a priority.

I appreciate(d) its existence A LOT. I greatly admire the dedication of the staff. I realise what it's done for the fandom. I'm sure it's a total hoot. I wish it every success.

But the overwhelming likelihood is that even under much better circumstances than the current ones, I still wouldn't attend. Since a couple of people asked, in declining order of importance:

1. I have other commitments which I'd have to break to attend. I couldn't go without letting down people I care about.

2. At the outside I could save up but I'd prefer to save the money or spend it on something more important. For example, my computer broke down in the last year and I was able to replace it fairly quickly because I'd kept money aside. My circumstances may change in the next few years to the point where I can comfortably afford it, but that isn't the case at present. And I would definitely never go into debt for a holiday (and would implore others not to, as well).

3. I haven't been away for four years. I've never been out of the EU. There are a lot of places I'd like to visit and haven't. Lots of things I intend to do but haven't done yet. I've not yet seen an opera. I've not yet seen a live performance of a Shakespeare history play. I've still a number of Arthurian sites quite local to me left to visit. I've never been skiing. I haven't swum in the ocean for years. Going half-way around the world to a hotel room even for Gargoyles just, simply, is not a priority for me.

4. I'm just not that plugged into the fandom these days. The series is long over. The comic is only twitching. TGS is gone. I don't keep in contact with all that many gargoyles fans, and of those only a fraction Gather. There are people in the fandom I'd travel to meet and hang out with if they all turned out, but I'm not overly bothered about going half-way around the world to meet new people. Nor am I one of these people who has an overwhelming urge to meet celebrity guests. The only guest actually that I really would travel to meet is Greg Weisman. But if I never meet him, I don't think I'll be crying on my deathbed. What's more important to me is that I got to know the immortal part of him -- his work.

So those are my reasons. And I hesitate to speak for anyone else, but I reckon upwards of 99% of non-Gatherers would match one or all of these. Maybe not in the same order or with the same precise rationale, but in the same ballpark.

I suppose it's possible that saying this may aggrieve some of the staff who are putting in their time and cash (though I suspect they've got bigger things to worry about), but I will say I've tried not to lead anyone on. I can't say I've never "maybe next year"-ed; I dare say someone can dig up a couple of times in the past 12 years where I have, at least ironically. But I've always tried hard not to do so, even when it would have been quite sincere. It's just not fair for the con staff. And it's certainly not fair for anyone less experienced at gauging potential attendance who might want to plan another con. It's *thisclose* to asking a friend to get you a ticket to a big music gig or sports match and then not returning their calls.

My point is, to the people who are tempted to agree with the argument "but for the staff doing x or y or z, I'd be there" -- the question isn't whether in the abstract you'd like to go. I'd like a million pounds, an island to myself, a rocket ship, cartoon birds to do my laundry and world peace. Everyone here would LIKE to go to the Gathering. The question is -- to what extent are you willing to meet the staff half-way? Because they, collectively, already bend over backwards. They've had cons up and down North America, got in all manner of guests, they've had big revelations and all sorts of Gathering-exclusive goodies.

I didn't turn up. You mostly didn't turn up. Our reasons, elaborate and sincere as they may be, are largely immaterial to the cold facts of the case. I don't really know for whose benefit the justifications are intended. It's one thing to "maybe next year" in, perhaps, good faith; but saying "maybe last year" and then pointing the finger at the staff for your own choices comes off as kind of cowardly, and at any rate deeply unfair.

In any event, what did everyone make of Greg's not-a-true-story story? I'm not sure I know what to make of it but it was an interesting read and I'm glad it seemingly wasn't in any way true.
Ed
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 7:46:28 pm EDT from 213.187.38.226

While I'm not much of a Gathering-attender (I've only been to the 2001 Gathering) - largely because I'm too much of a homebody - I still think that, if it had to end, at least the last one is going out with a real blast, with guests like Marina Sirtis.

I certainly hope that the second "Gargoyles" trade paperback comes out on July 29. I've waited so long for the final third of the Stone of Destiny story. (I also hope that if Greg gets to tell more "Gargoyles" stories after this, there'll be some safeguard to make certain there won't be more such delays as the ones that probably killed the comic book.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 7:26:07 pm EDT from 4.244.210.78

Hey, Matt - Would you be interested in being a panelist on the Gargoyles Biology and Culture panel with Jade Griffin and myself? The panel is Monday, August 24th at 11:30am. The three panelists participate in and guide the discussion (without dominating it).
Greg Weisman
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 7:14:28 pm EDT from 64.236.243.16

*Agrees with Kanthara* By moving the Gathering around, it gave fans in those areas a better opportunity to attend more afford-ably(in some cases, attend whereas they wouldn't be able to have attended. I managed to make 2 in NY, one in LA and my last was Montreal(which was the closest to home and the only one outside the US). It also gives people a chance to see other parts of the country. Going to the same place every year would get kinda boring.

As I've said in past posts, I'd really love to make this Gathering-being the calibre of guests and that this may be the last one). More than money issues, Personal health issues and that of my parents just doesn't make it possible. Hope those of you attending have a blast and-by all means TAKE LOTS OF PICTURES AND SHARE THEM! ^_^
Wingless
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 6:48:15 pm EDT from 99.245.254.123

Ah, but, we moved it around in part because people on the west coast couldn't get to the east coast, and then people on the east coast couldn't get to the west coast. Basically, we brought the con to the fans as much as we could considering our bid system (basically, if you're crazy enough and capable of hosting it, your city's the one that gets the con).

So sorry you could only make the east coast ones, but think about what those west-coasters would have had to spend every single year to go.
Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois - [kanthara at gmail dot com]
I kick ass and take names.
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 6:11:59 pm EDT from 208.84.104.226

Someone who never comments butting it, while it was seemingly a selling point in it, I think the Gathering's biggest problem was that it moved around. I do give it top priority for vacations and such yet I've not attended many because once it goes to the west coast it's too far for me to go. If it had been in one place on the east coast then I would have gone every year. If it that place was on the west coast then I likely could have gone every other year, that amount managable for an every other year type trip though only if I know more than a year early.
Anonymous
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 3:19:40 pm EDT from 71.241.1.81

Demonskrye> I will say that the Gathering has tried to branch out before with different animation panels (this year, trying to entice spider-man fans to come by having several panels and voice actors at the con, because it is something that several former Gargoyles staff/cast is involved in, and that THAT fandom is pretty large.)

With piggybacking on another con, my concern is 1. Convincing the staff - some cons it is easier to do this with then others. 2. would any older fans honestly be interested in attending another con with panels? :)

To answer your questions.
1. Disney Afternoon Convention
I'm not as into some of the Disney Afternoon shows as I am with gargoyles fandom. I know some fans ARE, but personally for myself, it would depend on who was already going to that con for me to decide and come to it. :) As Patrick mentioned, there's not new material, and some of the shows have been off the air longer than Gargoyles has. So, I don't have a full answer for this, but I would personally lean towards a No.

#2. Would fans go to a larger established convention?
It depends on what the convention was. Anthro-con, I've heard interesting things, and I do have friends who go there, but I'd want to go with friends (only because I get shy sometimes and furry cons are a little scary - in concept - to me. <:)) If it was at Comic-con, I'd always LOVE to go to that someday, so I would try to make an attempt to go there, with or without people. So, it would really depend on the general theme of a larger established convention? (Because I would want to go to a convention to do more than just.. 'hang'... I like going to panels and learning new things. <:))

#3. Can't answer since I have only missed 2 out of the previous 12 cons.

#4. Online format
I'm not sure how an online format would work? I know there have been group meetups online etc, but I don't know how you would plan an online format? I prefer traditional, but only because I am not sure if how I'm thinking of an online 'con' is how yu are thinking of an online convention. :)

#5.Is it time for a break?
Well, being a part of the current Gathering staff, I would say yes to this. (I hate to say yes to this, but... there are mitigating factors... that are making it almost the only option. :/ - Financial issues, lack of attendance, ampathetic fandom, etc. )
Siryn
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 3:16:54 pm EDT from 75.186.8.243

King Cobra> While it's not generally true, it is still true that a lot of people, good economy or bad economy, can't save up the money they need to get to the convention. Perhaps those who are most affected by the bad economy will spend the good economy paying bad economy debts.

It doesn't change the fact that attending the Gathering, or any con, really, is a question of making priorities. If you live paycheck to paycheck, you can't save up, granted. If you can't get a credit card (or other kind of credit), you can't go into debt to get there. But if you do have the disposable income, say putting 20 bucks from each paycheck into its own account/piggybank/jar/sock to spend on going to cons, the accumulated money will still be the limit of which and how many cons you can go to. You'll need to make choices. I cancelled my plans to go to Comic Con because from Montreal, California twice in the same summer is kinda nuts. However, I've made it a priority to never miss the Gathering. That's where my money goes each year.

So there. Bad economy means lots of people have less money, true. But there was good economy before the bad, and the attendance was still dwindling at that point. Money may be a concern, but priorities as to where that money goes remains what affect attendance.

And before I get attacked for guilt-tripping you all that you SHOULD make it a priority to go to the Gathering, that's not at all what I said. I'm not twisting anyone's arm here. Just saying that people will plan for what they want to do, regardless of what the con (or other activity) is. For some, Comic Con is the Must-Not-Miss. Others, it's a yearly trip to Disney World. These people plan, save up or go into debt to do these things, good economy or bad.
Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois - [kanthara at gmail dot com]
I kick ass and take names.
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:14:16 pm EDT from 208.84.104.226

Looks like Clan-Building volume 2 won't be out by 7/22:
http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/upcomingreleases.txt Let's hope for a Diamond appearance next Monday. Maybe they'll have copies at Comic-Con, who knows.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at gmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:03:55 pm EDT from 128.101.32.234

Patrick> "For those whose reason for not attending the convention in its current form is that they can't afford to travel, it seems likely that would still apply to any future meet-up or convention, no matter the size, no matter how wide or narrow the focus on "Gargoyles.""

That's not generally true. Things should get better in a few years or so from this economical slump we're currently in, and people will start getting more money, thus making a convention (not just The Gathering, but any con really) more financially feasible for those whose cash flow is currently hurting.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:42:26 pm EDT from 99.30.142.83

*Amazon.com * (unofficial) dates:

-- Gargoyles: Clan Building Volume 2 (July 29, 2009)
-- Gargoyles: Bad Guys Volume 1 (August 5, 2009)

* Diamond Comics * (official) dates:

-- unknown currently

Keep your eyes on these two pages.

http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/upcomingreleases.txt
http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/newreleases.txt

Each and every Monday afternoon at 2pm, PREVIEWSworld.com provides a list of new products arriving in comic shops for the following week!

So, if CB V2 is coming out 7/29 then you'll see it on "upcomingreleases" on 7/20 and "newreleases" on 7/27.

If BG V1 is coming out 8/5, then you'll see it on "upcomingreleases" on 7/27 and "newreleases" on 8/3.
Anthony Tini
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 11:27:26 am EDT from 159.240.11.254

For those whose reason for not attending the convention in its current form is that they can't afford to travel, it seems likely that would still apply to any future meet-up or convention, no matter the size, no matter how wide or narrow the focus on "Gargoyles." This is the one factor over which a convention has no control, and I'm sure even the people who are saying it realize how far-fetched it is to say "pay my way and I'll attend."

Would a "Disney Afternoon" con be able to make a better go of it? -- It's hard to guess. The "Disney Afternoon" has been off the air for over a decade. As with any fan convention, it all depends how hard a group of volunteers is willing to work to bring it into being.

Would "Gargoyles" fans be likely to attend other cons? -- Many already do... and many have already moved on to those other cons. Speaking for myself and not as con staff, for me it'd depend a lot on how many of my friends I could expect to see there. Something as massive as Comic Con would be of no interest to me if I knew no one else there.

Could an online con work? -- Possibly, though it wouldn't be able to involve fans who do not spend a lot of time online in the way that a traditional convention does. Again, whether it could happen depends on having people who are ready, willing, and capable of investing the time and effort into setting it up.

39 days left until the 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, CA!
10 days left to book your hotel room at the Hilton Los Angeles!
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 10:25:53 am EDT from 173.88.135.205

Siryn> You make a good point, which is why I think that anyone who wants to try to pick up where the Gathering leaves off should be looking at a new "business model" if you will, not just the Gathering with a new name and a fresh coat of paint. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but from what I have been reading, the facts are that we are a relatively small fandom of which only a small percentage comes to the Gathering - whatever their reasoning - and that has become financially unsustainable. As I see it, this means that anyone trying to start up a new "Gargoyles" convention would have to figure out how to make the convention appeal to a wider group of people, shrink the costs, or a combination of the two. This is part of why I have been suggesting that future organizers should aim for something a lot smaller than the Gathering, be it a couple of panels with an exciting guest at a larger con, smaller regional conventions with maybe a guest and a few panels, or something else. My fear is that anyone who tries to recreate the Gathering or something close to it is going to end up in the exact same situation that the Gathering is in now: too many expenses and not enough con-goers to break even.

A few other things to consider:

- Would a Disney Afternoon convention or even a TV animation convention be more of a draw that a "Gargoyles" convention? Does the "Gargoyles" name scare away people who don't know the show, even as the Gathering has branched out to cover other topics and TV shows?

- Would fans who currently attend the Gathering still want to go to a larger established convention with one or more "Gargoyles"panels and guests?

- Would fans who currently do not attend the Gathering be less, more, or equally likely to attend a larger established convention with one or more "Gargoyles" panels and guests?

- Is the traditional convention format the best option for "Gargoyles" right now. Is a kind of online con a possibility, with panels held through chat rooms or online conference calls?

- Is it time to take a break from "Gargoyles" conventions? I kind of hate to suggest this, even as someone who has never been to one. But maybe the best thing would actually be to have a few years with no "Gargoyles" convention and then try again so that there is perhaps more of an appetite among the fans to go to one. I get the impression that there were people out there kind of assuming that the Gathering would always be around whether they attended or not, so maybe what the fandom needs is a few years without a convention to work up the desire to have one again.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 9:34:49 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

As we are citing reasons we cant attend a Gathering, my problem is also location and money. I am a college student and, though my tuition is taken care of, there are still other things that require my money and attention. I usually never have more than $2,000 in my account at any given time. The only conventions I have attend that were outside of my state was Dragon*Con and that was only because my mother and I went together as we had a mutual interest in a group of guests that would be there one particular year. Beyond that, I only attend two anime cons that are within an hour's drive of my home.

If life were perfect, I think the majority of people in this comment room would go across country to attend the Gathering. However, sadly, life is not perfect. We have finances and responsibilities that take precendence over any fandom we might be a part of.

Speaking of Otakon, that is coming up in this next week. It's an anime con but I remember last year seeing someone in a gargoyle costume from across the room (Im pretty sure it was Demona). There are always flyers on tables near the entrance. I know there were talks of making flyers for the comics. Does anyone know if that came through? If so, and if its on-line, I could print some out and see if I could leave them on the flyer table. If not, maybe I could come up with a quick flyer. Im home sick today anyway.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 9:25:28 am EDT from 173.69.136.16

@ Siryn: Especially if you still have to pay for the camle.
http://blogs.houstonpress.com/rocks/assets_c/2009/05/wilco%20the%20album-thumb-450x450.jpg
Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 9:05:55 am EDT from 84.191.190.126

Purplegoldfish> No one is stuffing down anything anyone's throats. I'm sorry you feel that that is happening, but that's NOT the intention at all. :) I know, as you've stated, you're used to being bullied, but for once, may I post something and you not take it as a bullying statement but as a sincere kind question? :) Because, anyone can tell you, I'm not at _all_ a harsh person. :)

To everyone who answered my question> Thankyous! I appreciate your imput!
Everyone so far cited financial concerns, that to get them to come, we'd (or someone else) would have to pay for them. OK.

Now tell me this, if your fandom/target group of people is unable to financially come (for any number of reasons), HOW does ANYONE expect a future convention/meetup to work if your attendees honestly cannot pay for it? (I mean, yes, this is a small pool of the fandom in this chatroom, but you're still echoing a majority of issues other fans have) So, if I was a future con chair WHERE would I be able to get the money from to even host a convention? WOULD I even be able to get people to show up? <:) That's I think the key to everything here.

Solid planning is great, but you can buy the decorations, streamers, and even bake a cake, but if none of your invited guests attend... you're stuck sitting in a chair all by yourself with a party hat on. So I think, (personally as a fan, not as a con staff person), that if anyone wishes to address the convention problem... you need to think long and hard about THAT issue.... because... that's the largest problem.

Mug a Guest> I have to agree with what Lynati said, if I want to hang around Thom Adcox for example, I usually can catch him without having to go to a Mug-a-Guest panel. <:) Also, you can sometimes catch people at their OWN panels, they'll talk and keep talking, and have some great stories. (Keith David's agent last year had some great advice/input/stories on his panel last year) I don't sign up for them unless they're people I have absolutely _never_ spoken with before... and if you're on con staff, well, two things. 1. You're more than likely to be WORKING so you can't sign up anyways! 2. Between panels, guests are usually eager to talk about new projects, and what they're doing right now. Everyone who has come to a gathering has been nothing but supportive or friendly to talk to. :) Afterall, we're all only human. :) (Even Greg hehe.)

Kanthara> Thankyou! I totally stole that analogy (is that the right word?) from you when you told it to me when I was planning my wedding. XD
Siryn
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 8:02:59 am EDT from 75.186.8.243

Gathering> Picking up on last week's thread about what it would take to get you to the Gathering.

Despite my previous list of conventions I have attended, I'm actually not a huge con-goer. Two of the four cons I've been at were ones i only went to once and I don't go to any of them every year. The last one I went to was BotCon 2007 and among the reasons we went were Providence being about an hour's drive from our house and three of our friends being able to attend and share a hotel room with us. (We probably wouldn't have bothered with a hotel room if this hadn't been the case.) Aside from a handful of people I chat with online and have never met in person, I don't really know any other "Gargoyles" fans. Even my husband isn't all that into "Gargoyles." So if I went, I would be going alone, which is not something I am all that comfortable with.

While I am very fortunate in that I could afford to go to a Gathering, I still do kind of have to budget my vacations. My husband's job only allows him so much time off. I prefer to take trips with him rather than without when I can and as I said before, a "Gargoyles" convention isn't really his idea of a good time. Even if I do travel solo, it requires a certain amount of planning. I'm usually home with our dog, who has to be crated when we leave him at home alone due to his tendency to chew inappropriate items to relieve his boredom. My husband's job includes an hour commute each way, so the dog would probably still have to be boarded even if my husband was staying home. And when it comes down to a choice between attending the Gathering alone or something like going to Orlando to escape a particularly horrible winter or visiting my sister and friends who live in Oregon, the Gathering just doesn't take priority.

I think what it comes down to is that I have become more of a casual "Gargoyles" fan over the years. Back when the show was still on the air, I would watch it with my sister and discuss it in school the next day with my friend, often in conjunction with some surprisingly relevant AP English lessons. It made for a good "reinforcement system" and while I still come here, I don't think I really have that anymore. I still buy the comics, own the DVDs, have some of the toys and other merchandise, and think about the overall storyline. But it doesn't mean quite as much as it did to me over a decade ago, probably because I'm just not the same person I was. Heck, by the time "The Goliath Chronicles" rolled around, I had decided I would rather sleep in than watch them and that was even before I knew they were inferior episodes.

I hate to be one of "those people," but since the question is "What would it take to get you to go to a Gathering?" I think the answer is "A Gathering happening really close by." If I could go casually, under my own power, and check it out while always having the option to just go home if it turned out to not be my thing, then I might consider going. But the fact is, I've just never been a great potential Gathering attendee.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 7:47:57 am EDT from 146.115.115.33

Does anyone think Matt Damon would make a good Detective Matt Bluestone? He has the look but Im not sure I could buy the cospiracy theorist thing. I dont know. . .
Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 3:41:35 am EDT from 70.115.200.18

Wow... Someone beat me to it...

Next time...
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>**)> Caffeine...
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 3:41:00 am EDT from 72.199.81.83

10th~!!
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>**)> Caffeine...
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 3:40:17 am EDT from 72.199.81.83

10th! Lets do this!
Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 3:39:34 am EDT from 70.115.200.18

9th
vickyuk - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 2:52:26 am EDT from 194.129.65.79

8th.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 1:14:27 am EDT from 99.30.142.83

Thanks landon, I will be sure to buy the paperback from those links.
And just wanted to say looking forward to seeing everyone once agian this year.
Justin "I'd Rather Be Pillaging"
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:44:31 am EDT from 96.248.143.123

(666)Six in a row!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:38:34 am EDT from 69.54.209.22

Fifth! :P
rawrieatu
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:14:41 am EDT from 71.239.112.13

Fourth!
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:06:18 am EDT from 70.190.63.238

Purplegoldfish: Yeah, the mug-a-guests are actually the opposite of what you are thinking in terms of the people who usually attend them. The people who are friends with Greg Weisman mostly wouldn't bother to sign up for it, because they know they don't need to do a mug in order to talk to him. From what I've seen, most of the been-around-a-while fans step back and let newcomers have first shot at the sign-up sheets because they know there will be other opportunities (Blue Mug, other panels) to ask any questions that they haven't already asked during their years in the fandom / attending The Gathering.
Lynati - [Lynati_1 at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:06:07 am EDT from 71.185.95.192

2nd!

For folks who can't afford the Gathering, you can still play a very important role in supporting the fandom: buy the comic collections. It costs a fraction of the convention, but still has a profound effect since the publisher's margins are so thin. Even as the Gathering ends, the Gargoyles can continue for years to come in comic form, but only if the collections sell well enough.

Gargoyles: Clan Building Volume 1 - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1593620969?ie=UTF8&tag=thegatherioft-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1593620969

Gargoyles: Clan Building Volume 2 - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1593621671?ie=UTF8&tag=thegatherioft-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1593621671

Gargoyles: Bad Guys Volume 1 - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1593621930?ie=UTF8&tag=thegatherioft-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1593621930

Buying from those links above has the added bonus of sending a couple extra bucks to the Gathering on Amazon's dime--no extra cost to you.

(I know, broken record, but I'm sure there a some newbies/occasional lurkers.)
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at gmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:01:41 am EDT from 216.250.163.157

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