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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending September 21, 2009

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DESERT COYOTE - [SPOILER] I've also wondered how Alex is going to respond to the new hatchling.

"Clan-Building Volume Two" gives us our first look (except for that glimpse of the hatchling Angela, Gabriel, and Boudicca in "Avalon Part Three") at gargoyle children, with Lunette, True, and Nashville; each one even gets to say something. (True's suggestion of a Wind Ceremony for the massacred gargoyles, which Demona rejects, stands out the most to me - True's only the gargoyle equivalent of nine or ten, and she's having to face a horrifying slaughter. Of course, kids that age - human as well as gargoyle - probably had to face that kind of thing often back in the 10th century, but it's still unsettling, especially when you see the look on her face.) [/SPOILER]

I remember Greg's remark that the Wyvern clan had young gargoyle children, the equivalent of eight years old, at the time of the Massacre - but of course, they couldn't show them because their deaths would never have made it past Standards and Practices.

Todd Jensen

Received CB2 as a birthday gift from my wife the other day, and devoured it. There's a few things that struck me about it.

[SPOILER] Did anyone else notice that when the Stone spoke to the four men (MacBeth, Xanatos, Arthur and Peredur), the clock read 1:07 for each of them? I wonder if there's any significance to 1:07. Suppose that's one for Ask Greg.

Artwork was high-quality throughout the book, and deceptive at times. Robby Bevard did an awesome job disguising Ben Dunn's pencils so that they didn't look like an extension of Ninja High School. Additionally, I think because it was Dunn doing the pencils that may have contributed to the "young" look to Katana people have been wondering about ... since Dunn works in general with the "manga" style of artwork and domesticates it, all of his females generally tend to look young (as proof, check out all of the women in "Phoenix": Finella, Demona, Elisa, Angela, even Mary has that young appearance).

Some small notations: I wonder if there's anything significant to the London clan having no beasts? The final scene with the Stone next to the Grail reminded me a lot of two old friends meeting up at a bar. Were they to continue the series beyond this volume, what kind of new mayhem would erupt around the Castle once Egberto hatches? (first image: "Oh look, Alex has a playmate!") I love the payoff on why Fox buying a pair of Manolos was important to the Stone of Scone storyline. Finally, the writing of the TimeDancer portions in 997AD was excellent in its historical reference and reverence.

Excellent work all around. [/SPOILER]

Desert Coyote - [<- Buy my book, please?]
The Gargfic writer formerly known as Coyote the Bando

Thanks for your review, Matt. I'm looking forward to your Chapter Six review.

[SPOILER] I include some basic information on the original Falstaff in the GargWiki entry on him (including the significance of the Falstaff of "Bad Guys" originally being named Oldcastle), and on his associates in the articles on Falstaff's team (all five of them are named after Falstaff's fellow rogues in the Henry IV plays). I don't know if you've read them or not; of course, it's no substitute for reading the plays themselves, or seeing them performed. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Matt: A comment on your review . . .

[SPOILER] The giant tapestry is pretty does seem pretty conspicuous for a secret society to have . . . but then again, I do remember there being little Illuminati-symbol-shaped buttons at the Hotel Cabal d:

Maybe the powers-that-be were confident enough that only those in-the-know would see the conspirative decor ;) [/SPOILER]

"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Yeah, Amazon just notified me that it has shipped out a copy of CB:V2 to me. (I already had several copies, but this copy will be donated to my local library along with BG and CB:V1. I encourage all of you to donate copies of the trades to libraries if you have the funds!) So I guess Amazon has them in stock now.

Anyway, speaking of 'BG"...

My Review For Bad Guys #5, "Strangled"...

[SPOILER] - The first thing I did upon checking in at the Gathering this year was seek out my copy of Bad Guys, Volume 1 and read it. Couldn't go through the Gathering out of the loop, could I? Anyway, the point is that I first read this chapter several weeks ago, and many times since then. I'll try to focus on my initial thoughts, however.

- As usual, I'll start with the cover. After a very cool "Louse" cover, it seems we are back to the somewhat dull 'Wanted' poster covers. It isn't that I don't think these covers are a fun way of highlighting the character of focus in the chapter, 'cause it works well for that purpose, but in terms of drawing new readers in, in terms of color and action, they just don't grab me. This cover is also the only one we don't get to see in color at all, which is a shame, but since it doesn't strike me as being particularly colorful anyway, I suppose we are not missing too much by only seeing it in b&w.

- Moving on to the content, we start off back at our island battle. A cool thing here is that these island battle scenes have moved from being flashbacks and become the current story (intercut with new flashback scenes). So, a robot has its grip on Hunter and Dingo really gets to be the hero here. He flies in at high speed, rescues the damsel in distress and vanquishes the monster. Fun stuff and a cool sequence, and the strongest indication yet of the relationship between Dingo and Hunter. Too bad Hunter has no interest in being a damsel. She is so fun as she lets her guard down for a second and then snaps back into tough-girl mode. I get the sense that Dingo both loves and hates that about her.
Meanwhile, Yama saves Fang without a word (quite the contrast between these two and Hunter and Dingo). Yama dives down to the island and immediately draws his swords to take on a couple smaller 'bots. This is a fun little battle also. It is neat to see that when Yama is disarmed, he still has his natural weapons, his strength and claws. A gargoyle without weapons is still a gargoyle.
So, Hunter comes crashing in and the others land nearby, bringing our team back together. There is a brief moment where Dingo helps Hunter to her feet and she brushes him off followed a few moments later by him guarding her from the supposed trap behind the island doors, which she again ignores. These two really get a lot of subtle, but fun, play in this chapter. Of course, the Hunter-Dingo relationship serves as a great reference to Harry's relationship with his mother.

- And speaking of Harry's mother, lets not forget these very interesting flashbacks. We get to learn a lot about Dingo's past. We see that he was a good kid that came from a rough part of town and was raised by a seemingly 'good guy'. A simple thief who raised poor Harry to live a life of crime. It really makes me want to go back and watch some of those Pack episodes again. Dingo was always the good guy doing the bad guy thing. Which is, of course, a fun contrast to John Oldcastle, the bad guy doing the good guy thing. I recall at the 2008 Gathering in Chicago, Karine had a panel in which she talked about various issues she had drawing this chapter (which she had been doing at the time). One thing she mentioned in particular was that one panel was simply hard to draw due to the content. I remember thinking to myself that after drawing a suicide, what could be worse. I suppose the answer should've been obvious given the title of the chapter, but the last page of the comic was a surprise to me. Pretty sick, this John. I have to wonder why he killed Mariah though. What happened? And he seems to so calmly adopt and raise Harry afterwards. Anyway, a true villain. Which is ironic since Dingo seems to think somewhat highly of the man, though I get ahead of myself.

- Anyway, so the Squad moves into the island itself. Matrix gets a brief moment to shine here (haha), and the team comes across the most hilarious piece of art a secret society would ever possess, a giant tapestry with their insignia on it. "Guess we came to the right secret lair." Uh, yeah. And after this long battle with the drab, mindless robots outside we get this quick battle with this colorful bunch of characters inside. These new people are fun. They've got some neat tricks. I love how easily 'Doll' takes out Fang. And the dude with the swords taking on both Yama and Matrix is a lot of fun too. But Dingo knows this Pistol guy and immediately guesses who else is around. So John (AKA Falstaff) makes his appearance. I have to admit that I don't know much about the Shakespearean Falstaff, but this guy is quite the character. We saw that he had gained a lot of weight through the montage of training Harry, but here he has obviously been living the easy life. I love that he walks around with a turkey leg this whole scene. He ominously welcomes Dingo and his friends to "Eastcheap Isle" (uh, haven't you been attacking them the whole time?) and then 'strangles' Dingo with a bearhug. Creepy. Falstaff is an interesting character. He seems so cheerful and friendly and Santa Claus-like that you have to like him, but knowing what he has done... Well, suffice to say that Greg Weisman really likes to push the boundaries in Bad Guys of what is right and wrong, who is good and bad and who we are supposed to like or dislike. Fun stuff.

- So, all in all, a great chapter. We got a lot of interesting background on Dingo and finally moved beyond the Bad Guys Leica Reel. The story order is well laid out. The flashbacks don't just inform the present story, they are a rich part of it, enhancing it. When going from a present day scene to one of the flashbacks, there is no jarring shift because the two seemingly separate stories work so well together. It is very reminiscent of the Stone of Destiny story in the main Gargoyles comic in that the presence of a flashback at a particular moment actually adds new insight that wouldn't have been so clear had the story been told entirely chronologically. I suppose this is what Greg meant when he said that working the Stone of Destiny story has helped in how he wrote Bad Guys. Anyway, truly brilliant, great stuff! [/SPOILER]

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

Amazon finally has CB vol. 2 fully in stock: http://www.amazon.com/Gargoyles-Clan-Building-Greg-Weisman/dp/1593621671 Hopefully they'll discount the price soon. Amazon is currently the only store with all 3 books in stock.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]

Bluewyvern - See this page of Ask Greg:


Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

BLUEWYVERN - I'm not an expert (I only attended one Gathering, and never served on the staff for any of them), but the impression that I had was that they were running out of money - were even getting into debt - and decided that they'd better end the practice for financial reasons.
Todd Jensen

Hey, all. I've been away for a while, but decided to check back in with the release of the trades and soak up the news and reviews. Poking through Ask Greg, I did see references to one or two things that confused me...what's this about there being no more Gatherings? Why stop now? Hope someone can fill me in.

So I did some Internet-spelunking and found out some more information about Greg's upcoming Mecha-Nation . . . Though it looks like most of the information I garnered was already posted on Ask Greg, so nevermind. That'll learn me to check the good places foist.

But does anyone know when Mecha-Nation and Progeny will be solicited?

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Found something funny. It's not related to Gargoyles.

I wonder what Demona's inbox looks like?


Off topic:

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Another "Bad Guys" tidbit.

[SPOILER] Bardolph's ability is breathing fire. I think that this might be adapted from the original Bardolph of Shakespeare, who is described as having such a florid complexion that Falstaff and his friends make a lot of jokes about it, comparing him to fire. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

For one thing, he answers when he has time. Second, he answers the questions in the order they were submitted. Meaning that he would answer all questions submitted before September 1st before answering questions from September 2nd, and so on.

Before asking a question though, submit it here to see if anyone in the comment room can answer it first.


So, how does this Ask Greg work really? I've had approved questions since freakin' July. Does Greg just choose whatever questions he wants to answer? Does it really not matter whether it's approved? It's looking like I'll never get my questions answered.
A little confused - [geofferyvolcovici at kings dot edu]

Still no CB#2 tpb yet. Clearly seems some of us are still in the same boat for this book. I'll worry about it if it takes amazon.ca way too long to get this in. I'll only order from SLG themselves as a last resort. But I'm sure amazon will get it sooner or later as Diamond dist. serves the mass market for many comic publishers, SLG included.
I posted 2-3 weeks ago, I thought Bad Guys trade was smaller then CB#1's trade but they are the same size, as I finally pulled out my first CB vol. 1. Yes you are right to whoever corrected me about this at the time. Now I wished they actually were the 6x9 size just to be a little "bigger". SLG really went all out to cut back on paper costs on the chosen size for these Gargoyles trades.


GUARDIAN - That was the name of the comic book miniseries that Greg's going to be doing soon. Maybe I spelled it wrong; it might have been "Mecha-Nation", or something like that. I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough with it for the spelling to have clicked into my memory.

[SPOILER] I began wondering something about the Illuminati's treasure room on board Falstaff's ship. When the Illuminati capture the Stone of Destiny, it's taken to Castle Carbonek, to be stored alongside the Holy Grail. But the rest of the Illuminati treasure is being kept in Eastcheap rather than at Carbonek. I wonder whether this might be another sign that much of the Illuminati membership is up to something behind Peredur's back, something that even Duval might be in on without Peredur knowing it. Why wouldn't they store the rest of their wealth at Carbonek, alongside the Grail and the Stone? One possible answer is that Peredur's at Carbonek - and they don't want him knowing about that huge treasure hoard. So they deliberately keep it away from Carbonek, and thus away from Peredur's eyes. Maybe I'm stretching here, but I do wonder all the more now whether Peredur's in a "If the Tsar only knew" situation.

I mentioned a while ago my speculation that Lohengrin, the Knight of the Swan, and Percival's son, might have been in the Illuminati, and one of the Illuminati's artifacts stored at Eastcheap is a knight's shield with a swan depicted upon it. Hmm.....

Note that there's a spear there as well - maybe not *that* spear, since the Radio Play isn't canon, but it catches my eye, all the same. [/SPOILER]

DEMONSKRYE - I wonder whether Greg's original title, "Redemption Squad", might have been better in that case. I think it catches the essence of the spin-off (that the protagonists are seeking redemption - [SPOILER] summed up so well by Yama at the end [/SPOILER]); "Bad Guys" could be potentially confusing, not just for the reason that you mentioned, but even because people might think of it as a spin-off about full-out villains (like the animated series Greg Weisman and others once pitched for Disney where many Disney villains, like Captain Hook, would be teaming up to take over the world) instead of about former antagonists who'd had a change of heart.

Todd Jensen

Re: Gargoyles Accessibility to Newcomers . . . I'm no so sure I would have enjoyed the comics as much as I did if things were to fast forward a bit. The Gargoyles universe is so rich with stories that it seems almost impossible to perform any sort of fast forwarding without missing some key elements.

Of course, this doesn't take into account that Greg could easily have written a number of 'flashback' comics to explain what happened between Hunter's Moon and the fast forward . . .

Re: Comic Delays . . . I'm sure they did, Demonskrye. If Gargoyles was to be a monthly comic, and finding artists was becoming a problem, to the point that a monthly comic becomes a bi-montly, then tri-monthly, and so forth and so on . . . Yeah, that's gonna pose a problem to Greg's timeline, I'm sure.

. . . People need to perform research all the time. I'd prefer it to be research over a fun property than something for school. :-P But, I see your point, Demonskrye. I guess I'm just too much of a diehard Gargoyles fan to allow for such things as "But I don' wanna do research!" :-P. I, personally, do it all the time. I find it therapeutic. But that's just me.

But . . . Would someone like Thailog need all that much of an introduction? He looks like Goliath, but is colored differently; therefore, conventional wisdom suggests that he's an evil twin or evil clone. Gottah love pop culture and clichés. ;)

In any event . . . Todd, what's this 'Meka-Nation' you referred to?

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

I think another way to approach the subject is to ask, if anyone here has ever gotten into a show or comic with continuity and still enjoyed it. Some moments I recall:

1. This is more recent, but I recently watch some Season 5 episodes of Star Trek Deep Space Nine without knowledge on the first four seasons, and I enjoyed the episodes as much as I did The Original Series (which are all standalone episode).

2. Before making an effort to get the Captain Atom series written by Cary Bates and Greg Weisman, I pick up issues 42 and 45 in the discount bin. True, I didn't have background knowledge on the character, it didn't hamper my reading at all.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

DEMONSKRYE> Here's the thing. As far as we know, the comic was selling very well for SLG. They are still interested, and if the sales figures for these trades are decent (by their standards), then we should be golden... well, for SLG. We'll see if they can negotiate something with Disney.

But, I honestly think that as long as it sells at least well enough to keep going (and it was), then we shouldn't have to worry so much about the others. Besides, the episodes are available on DVD, and YouTube. If anyone wants to find out about it, they can.

Greg Bishansky

Matt> Thanks...but if Todd finally got his Bad Guys @ Left Bank Books, then odds are the Fantasy Shop has mine...if not...then I will call Starclipper. (I prolly can't pick it up till next Friday anywho...payday)
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Loooong story...some of it even true--Brooklyn

still waiting for my copy of vol 2 but i can wait :p
Saber - [dal1986n at hotmail dot co dot uk]

Guardian> I could be wrong, but I don't think that the delays that the comic suffered had any effect whatsoever on which stories Greg decided to tell and how. The only difference between the lineup Greg had in line for a potential season three and the one we got for the comic that I remember hearing about was that Brooklyn's timedancing adventure was originally going to happen sooner, but got bumped back so that readers could get to know Brooklyn better before he underwent some major changes. Of course, if the delays hadn't happened, we probably would have had more comics, but that doesn't really change the fact that the issues we got are rather intimidating for new readers. I don't know that they would have stuck around to find out if the next six issues will explain the things that have been confusing them.

Yes, interested readers could go on the internet and get answers to their questions, but as the review pointed out, that shouldn't be something that they have to do. If it's just that no one would know that "Coco" and "Amp" are names taken from the comedy development of "Gargoyles," then I'd have no problem with it. You don't need to know that to understand the story; it just makes things a little more fun if you do. But the impression that I'm getting is that new readers would have to go to the internet to understand key characters and concepts. One of my bigger gripes is how little we get of the idea that the gargoyles protect Manhattan. It's one of the central ideas of the series, but it's not given a lot of attention in the comic. Most of the last six issues don't even take place in Manhattan. It would be like if "Awakening" was followed immediately by the World Tour. It would be very hard to get you bearings. If the information isn't in the comic, it's not fair to expect either readers or reviewers to seek it out elsewhere. They are more likely to move on to a comic that doesn't require additional research.

Antiyonder> Completely new characters like Shari can be helpful because they can sometimes act as "window characters" who are as new to the situation as the audience is and need to have things explained and characters introduced to them. But when you have several characters who appeared on the show but have never been seen in the comic all showing up in one storyline, it can get really confusing for a new reader if the characters aren't introduced in such a way that the new reader knows at least as much about the characters as is required to understand the story just from reading the comics.

Todd> I think the solution you suggest, or something like it, might have been good. In hindsight, knowing that we would only get 12 issues of the main book and one spinoff miniseries,I'm glad that we got the major stories that we did. But I do like more character focused stories like a lot of the season one episodes and I think it would have been helpful to have a couple of single issue stories like those episodes to introduce us to the clan, their foes, their current situation, and their life's mission before throwing so many other characters and locations into the mix.

I do realize that Greg did no have an easy task here. As you point out, "Gargoyles" is neither something everyone understands on a basic level like "Star Wars" or a recently ended TV series with a still large fanbase like "Buffy." Greg couldn't just dive right in to new material and expect everyone t be up to speed. But if he spent a lot of time on exposition for newcomers, the longtime fans would get impatient. I remember some of us were pretty anxious to get past the two issues that retold "The Journey," though the delays certainly didn't help.

I'm pretty sure I've talked before about how continuity is a double edged sword, rewarding fans who stick with the property, yet potentially alienating those who miss a crucial story or come in late. In the case of the comic, I think the timeline might have ended up doing more harm than good since Greg had to get time sensitive stories in at certain points and had no space for "clan protecting Manhattan" stories. I know Greg said that the order in which the spinoffs were supposed to come out was determined by what story had to be told when, but I still can't shake the feeling that "Bad Guys" was not the best choice to start with. I assume that the events it chronicled would have eventually tied in to another story, but it just doesn't feel like a natural spinoff of the comic. If a newcomer to "Gargoyles" was reading the main book and found out there was going to be a spinoff called "Bad Guys," they would probably expect stories about Thailog, Castaway, maybe even Xanatos. Though two of these characters do show up in the comic, it's only briefly and they aren't the main cast, which is made up entirely of characters that readers of the comic have never seen before. I wonder if maybe "Dark Ages" would have worked better as a first spinoff. It would have focused on the idea that the Manhattan clan is originally from 10th century Scotland, which doesn't get a ton of play either, and set up readers for the Timedancer story arc in the main book, which in turn would lead nicely into the next spinoff.

I agree that the comic did have to please the hardcore fans, since they're the ones who have been hoping for more "Gargoyles" since the TV series ended and would ideally form the core audience for the new comic. But it's become very clear that we're not a big enough fandom to make a product successful without some outside interest, and I'm not sure that the comic was accessible enough to new readers.

Demonskrye - [<---"9" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Antiyonder - That might be a good way to look at it actually. The shipping delays imply that SLG didn't print as many this time around. Selling out a small supply is better than overprinting with copies languishing on the shelf. Spreading out the sales among small supplies of both trades at the risk of not meeting all demand right away might have made more economic sense to SLG. Now they can pay for more printings with the sales of the first.

Speaking of which, Amazon says they'll get in CB#2 on Monday: http://www.amazon.com/Gargoyles-Clan-Building-Greg-Weisman/dp/1593621671 That's over a month late. Does that delay match the time it takes China to print and ship another stash of CB#2? Maybe. We won't know anything for sure until Dan Vado decides to tell us/Greg.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

MATT - Thanks for the news. I'd thought of going to Starclipper at one point to buy the trade paperbacks, as I'd done before, but didn't know if they'd have any out on the shelf - and Left Bank Books was within walking distance, as Starclipper is not. Though it's a pity, since I'd enjoyed visiting Starclipper and University City around it. Maybe I should go there again some time, even though there won't be any new "Gargoyles" material there, just to have a pleasant look around.

[SPOILER] Did anyone notice that the Illuminati's treasure room included, besides so many pieces of art from around the world and throughout history, an ordinary everyday lamp? I wonder what the story was behind that.

It also contained something that looked a bit like the top of the TARDIS from "Doctor Who", but it might have been just my imagination. [/SPOILER]

Now to weigh in on the "accessibility to new readers" question. I think that "Gargoyles" has a couple of disadvantages here. It wasn't popular enough to be easily recognizable in pop culture references, like, say, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", "Star Trek", "Star Wars", etc. Bringing any of those back and making them accessible to the audience isn't so difficult, since the core elements have been absorbed into the popular consciousness.

Also, the whole point of bringing "Gargoyles" back was to tell what happened after the events of "Hunter's Moon". That obviously ruled out the customary way of relaunching a super-hero property: rebooting the continuity (so that, for example, "The Spectacular Spider-Man" has a different continuity from the 90's FOX animated series). We know that Greg Weisman had thought of that for the movie version, and even posted a ramble on it some years ago (around the time that the first "X-Men" movie came out), but I don't think he even considered that for the comic book, and doing that would certainly defeat the purpose of the relaunch.

Perhaps one solution could have been to, instead of beginning the story in the immediate aftermath of "Hunter's Moon", set it an indefinite period afterwards, during which the public have calmed down, the gargoyles have gone back to patrolling the city, etc. (which would also have meant that Greg's hands wouldn't be tied by the timeline so that the Halloween and Stone of Destiny stories - both of which would be fixed in the calendar - would have to come so soon after the opening, since "Hunter's Moon" is also fixed by the calendar). But it's too late for that now.

And maybe the comic had to be aimed at the established fans all along, since they'd be the ones who'd most want a continuation of "Gargoyles". To those who weren't familiar with the series and just wanted a good story, that could as easily be answered by an entirely new series in a separate universe, such as Greg's upcoming "Meka-Nation" (I hope I spelled it right) mini-series.

Todd Jensen

Those figures probably don't include the sales we made for SLG at the Gathering last month.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Landon Thomas> The sales are in for the trades: http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/15821.html

Clan-Building vol 2 - 884
Bad Guys - 647

That's down from Clan-Building vol 1 sales of 1,454 from January 2008: http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/12097.html

Though to be technical, between sales of both recent trades, altogether that's 1,531 trades sold. :)

On that note, one of the libraries in my area order a copy of Clan Building 1 and 2, while one of the comic stores in the area recently sold a copy of Clan Building V2 and Bad Guys.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

If anyone snagged one of those last two Gargoyles "Read" posters, could you say so? It's not that you did anything wrong, obviously. But I'd like to figure out if they ended up with Gargoyles fans or in the trash at ALA.

Forgive the double post but I did find something of interest. It's not the ALA Read bookmarks but these do seem to be authentic unless someone else can prove otherwise.


There are nine sets if anyone is interested. If I have no luck with ALA, I might buy a set if theyre not all gone.

<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Ah, it feels nice to be using my own wireless. Im glad its working again.

ALA 'READ' Poster > I got a reply to the email I sent that had asked about posters, bookmarks, and anything else that may have been Gargoyles related. Same answer, 'Item no longer availabe'. Ill see about making another inquire, possibly to a different ALA email but I fear we may be out of luck. Im bummed. I had been hoping they might discover a box of bookmarks that I could have bought off of them and share the prixe with all of you. Oh well. Ill keep trying! I havnt given up yet! And, should all this fail, Ill probably make a poster just for fun of screencaps (though if a true artist steps up and makes a nice Gargoyles READ poster, Id buy that :D).

Here's a thing to ponder: do you think ALA might be interested in renewing their Gargoyle merchandise? They have a large variety of posters: about authors, actors, books, movies, TV shows, and graphic novels. They were interested when Gargoyles was a TV show; now that its a graphic novel (and even has Brooklyn's breaking of the 4th wall about 'hitting the books'), maybe that might renew their interest with Gargoyles. Perhaps something like that would encourage sales and for Disney to take SLG offer when its made. Hmm, I wonder. Wouldnt that be wonderful. Maybe Ill post a question to Greg about how that deal came into being and if anything could be done to renew it with a focus on the trades...

<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

To my fellow St. Louis fans (aka Chip and Todd)> I'm amazed you guys have had such trouble getting a copy of Bad Guys. I walked into Starclipper and they had several copies on the shelf and I didn't even expect them to have it yet! Anyway, Todd, I'm glad you've got your copy at least and Chip, you might try giving Starclipper a call and see if they have any copies left in stock. Their number is 314-725-9110.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

Demonskrye> Actually the new characters work in favor of the new readers:

[SPOILER] If you need to explain a plot point within the story, it can be explained storywise by bringing the new character up to speed. Moments such as:

1. Al telling Shari about the Mutates and the Clones.
2. Shari telling Thailog a brief history of The Coldtrio. [/SPOILER]

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

I'd like to give my own thoughts on the comic's accessibility to new readers, but I'd better save it for later. My copy of "Bad Guys" finally arrived at Left Bank Books today, and I wanted to give a quick review.

[SPOILER] The big treat, for me, was Falstaff and his gang. In the final story from the comics - and the last canonical "Gargoyles" we're likely to get for a while, or at all - we get more Shakespeare into "Gargoyles", and the first big use of the history plays. (Falstaff spills over into "The Merry Wives of Windsor", which is one of the comedies, but that play's got the same kind of relationship to the Henry IV plays as the Goliath Chronicles has to the first two seasons of "Gargoyles".)

And not just Falstaff, but his familiar gang: Mistress Quickly, Mistress Doll (based on Doll Tearsheet), Bardolph, Pistol, and Points [sic]. (In the Henry IV plays, the character's name was Poins; I don't know if that's a deliberate change or a typo.) But even more than that, I laughed when Falstaff's original name turned out to be John Oldcastle, and his headquarters was called Eastcheap Isle.

(Some of the laughter, though, died away, when I found out on the last page of "Strangled" what *really* happened to Harry's mother.)

We also learn that Fiona Canmore's one of the Illuminati (not a complete surprise, since I'd seen that speculated already). I hadn't expected her to show up, as I had Falstaff, but in light of Hunter's identity, it makes good sense. One of those surprises that work (like the Illuminati having 666 membership slots or Coldstone and Coldfire showing up at the end of "Rock and Roll" to help out against Coldsteel).

I liked Dingo all the more when he wanted to avoid destroying Eastcheap because of all the historical artifacts and artwork there; it reminded me of Hudson and Broadway urging Goliath not to destroy the Scrolls of Merlin.

Falstaff says that the Illuminati are trying to save the world, and though it's common for well-written villains to claim they're on the side of the angels, especially in temptation scenes, I think he may have a point. We know from "Rock of Ages" that Peredur's apparent goal for the Illuminati was to make things ready for Arthur's original date for re-awakening - apparently when the Space-Spawn invade in 2198 - certainly a worthy goal. Though at the same time, from what I've seen of the Illuminati's actions so far, I'd say that they've fallen victim to the "end justifies the means" argument that the Director and "Monsieur Le Maire" discuss during their phone conversation. (And when the Space-Spawn *do* invade, the heroes of the Resistance have apparently little or no connection to New Camelot, New Camelot's main role is to run into trouble after the Master Matrix is stolen, and the Illuminati even join forces *with* the Space-Spawn.)

I thought that the ending was great - unconventional in that the Redemption Squad don't succeed in taking down the Illuminati or even seriously hindering their operations (all that they do is capture one of Falstaff's henchmen) - but at the same time, it's clear that what really matters is their quest for redemption. I got a kick out of the comical elements in it - Yama noting Matrix's single-minded pursuit of law and order with a smile, and Fang's exasperation when Yama turns to stone in the middle of his speech - Greg knows not to make it too unrelievedly serious.

So that's the last of the new stories. Eighteen chapters, telling us much more about the gargoyles and their world, and I enjoyed them. Even if we don't get any more, I'm delighted with what we got. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Don't forget, Demonskrye, that the SLG run was plagued with other problems as well. It's entirely possible that Greg wasn't able to tell the exact story he wanted to because of these problems. I, personally, believe that if given the time, Greg would have pulled it off.

Plus, if people were really interested, they could have easily typed Gargoyles in a Google Search and bam, lead 'em right here. Or GFW. Either way, there's links to the GargWiki around. It wouldn't have taken long for an interested comic reader to find some treasures while Internet-spelunking.

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Landon> Not an overly negative review, but still a little disheartening, if not surprising. This is not the first time we've seen the comic described as being for the hardcore fans only and casual readers should not bother. And to be totally honest, it's an opinion I can't really disagree with.

I think Greg W is a very smart and talented writer, and I enjoyed reading the comics. But I think he had a balancing act to pull off between the longtime fans who wanted to see new material without a lot of recap and the potential new fans who needed to be introduced to "Gargoyles" and its core concepts, and my feeling is that he tended to err in favor of the existing fans. I completely understand that it's not an easy task. How do you make new readers understand the significance of something like Thailog's return? Yes, you can have an explanation of who these character are and what they did during the TV series prior to Thailog showing up, but it's never going to be the same. For longtime fans it's "Oh wow! Thailog's back!" while for new readers it's "Oh hey, it's that guy I just read about." But beyond that, I think the comics ended up being pretty tough for a newcomer to pick up and get into. Has there been a count of how many new to the comic characters were introduced in just the past six issues? And add to that the fact that a new reader might only have the faintest inkling of who Goliath and Angela and Xanatos and the rest of the main cast are. Someone new to the series would barely know who Brooklyn is before he suddenly ages 40 years and likely becomes a very different character.

Again, it didn't stop me from enjoying the series, but the more I think about it and the more I see reviewers of the comics saying that the TV series is required viewing and not merely informative, the more I worry that the comic really never had a chance to find a new audience.

Demonskrye - [<---"9" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Here's the first Clan-Building vol. 2 review I've seen outside of a message board: http://www.gaijinside.com/trade-review-gargoyles-clan-building-mana-from-the-heavens/
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Rebel > Sad but true. Well, Ill give it one last try.

I sent an email asking, not only about the poster, but about the bookmarks and any other ALA product that bore Gargoyles on it. Hopefully a broader net will have better luck.

Litwolf (library)

Todd> Yeah, still no Bad Guys Trade for me either...The Fantasy Shop said that Diamond is having shipping issues. *SIGH* so, all I can do is wait and TRY to avoid BG spoilers.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Loooong story...some of it even true--Brooklyn

Wow, that is an awesome fond, Charisma. Something like that would have been great for the Gathering auction. Congrats and kudos to finding one a home on your wall. *applauds* :)
Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Litwolf > There were only two left. It's quite possible that another s8 visitor got to them before you.

Darn! I sent an email to the feedback section of the ALA product site last night and got a reply back this morning. All it says is:

We sincerely apologize, but the item is no longer available.

I'm gonna keep on asking. Someone let me know if they have better luck.

Thanks for putting up the pictures of the Reading poster, Charisma. Of course, it makes me want it all the more now! :D Ill keeping fishing around.

Litwolf (library again)

STARLIONESS - [SPOILER] I doubt it. For one thing, there clearly was no sign of a gargoyle-Pack battle raging in "Bad Guys" #4. Also, Brooklyn's Timedancer adventure - and the Pack battle came at the end of it - was dated "1997", so the new year had clearly already come. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

The "Read" poster was also available in a bookmark form. Used to use it in my "Can clan" website. Remnants of the site are still up(since I lost the password. click my name for a clear look at the bookmark pic. I'd love the poster tho-along with the poster I've seen of this:

Love both those pics. If you got em, I envy you terribly


Uh, oops. Here it is. For real this time.


"The alien mothership is in orbit here. If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." -Zap Brannigan

Litwolf> Hope I did this link right. If so, I have pictures of the Goliath Read poster hanging up in my room. If not, then I have no idea where the link will send you...
"The alien mothership is in orbit here. If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." -Zap Brannigan

Gargoyles Poster> The goliath gargoyles poster is not listed on the ALA website. You have to request it. It's been a while since I requested info from the ALA website, but I'm pretty sure that I went to their feedback section. There you give them your e-mail address and you tell them that you're looking for the disney gargoyles poster made in the mid 90s with goliath on it and send it to them. One of the workers there got back to me quickly via e-mail and said she'd look for the poster, but since she's already found the last 2, I don't think you'll have to wait 5 months like I did for her to say she'll send one of them to you. Like I said, it was $16 for the poster and $4 for shipping. I sent them a check and I had the poster several days later. Good luck to those of you trying to get the last of them!
"The alien mothership is in orbit here. If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." -Zap Brannigan

For REAL, Charisma! Good find! I'd love to have one of those!

Who do I need to contact?

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

Charisma > Im on the ALA site now. Who did you contact about the poster?
Litwolf (at the library)

Charisma > OMG I need to do that right the hell now! On the off chance I cant get my hands on it, any chance you could post a picture for all of us to gaze at? That would be wonderful!
Litwolf (at the library)

For those interested in a Gargoyles poster: I contacted the ALA store (promotes and sells stuff for reading) about 5 months ago and asked if they had any of those old reading posters with Goliath sitting on a building reading a book from Shakespeare (if any of you remember it). They said they'd check their archives, and they finally got back to me this past month. They only had 3 in stock. I bought one of them and it arrived a few days ago. I am extatic to have it now, seeing as I've searched for one for a long time. So for any of you who remember this reading poster and wanted to buy one, there's only 2 left at the ALA store for $16.
"The alien mothership is in orbit here. If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." -Zap Brannigan

Dropped by to provide a link to Gathering pics, which I finally found time to stick up:


All that's left now is cleaning up the Journal for "Ask Greg."

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I don't know. I'm making this up as I go." -Indiana Jones

well, I got Bad Guys from my local shop last week.. not sure If I wan't post a review .. since most people don't have it yet..

though I do have to wonder about why Yama looks so much like Goliath..and why Fang's desgin is so different on the cover..

but I do agree with Greg B. on this one.. I'd love to see more of the Redemption Squad maybe even crossing over with the main Gargs storyline..

and now that I think about it... Black and White would be a good choice for Dark Ages since it's in the past..

o.k maybe I'll throw a mini-spoiler about Bad Guys and Gargs here..

[SPOILER] I wonder if Goliath's clan was busy with the Pack when Fang and Sevarius dropped that Mutate Virus in Times Square... *wonders* [/SPOILER]

speaking of Katana, I also wonder if she'll be facing towards the castle when the clan is sleeping.. or maybe she'll just turn around after Brook tells her too..


CHIP - So you're still waiting for the "Bad Guys" trade paperback as well. I can relate. *sigh*

DEMONSKRYE - [SPOILER] I've been curious about Katana as well, especially since she's the first non-Scottish gargoyle in the Manhattan clan. (I consider Angela Scottish, even if she comes from Avalon; she and her rookery siblings came from a Scottish clan, and were raised by Scottish humans.) It certainly expands the clan's cultural horizons - though Elisa, who's also a member of the clan, isn't Scottish or of Scottish descent either, and probably did much to expand the clan's cultural horizons already. [/SPOILER]

[SPOILER] So far, all I've seen is the "D" (when I went back to check my copy of "Clan-Building Volume Two") - but it could indeed be the Daily Bugle. It's now up on the Tidbits section; maybe Greg Weisman will confirm it or deny it when he notices it. (And it reminded me of one of my favorite parts of the Radio Play - Spidey's line to Goliath "You can talk? You can read? And what you read are the Jolly One's editorials?" [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Re: Clan Building Availability . . . Forgive me, Landon, I may have used the wrong terminology. The exact wording in BookMaster is "Search Our Dealer Network," which means bn.com-accredited third-party dealers may have it available, but the company on a whole does not at current. Whether or not this can and/or will change, I do not know. That would require us to get more copies in our warehouses/stores, and that seems to be a problem for everyone right now. That's what I meant what I said 'Maybe this is a good thing.' This shows SLG that demand (if this is a result of purchased copies and not SLG deciding to end printing) is enough that warehouses run out.

Re: Gargoyles as humans with wings . . . I always assumed, and maybe that was a mistake on my part, that Angela had a case of 'starry eyes' when she first met Goliath. As I said previously, with the stories Princess Katharine and the Magus would have undoubtedly told the little hatchlings, meeting this mystical figure in the flesh would have been a big impact on the Avalon Clan -- and it was -- from what I remember.

I'd also like to ask another 'clearing the air question.' Is it possible that, as humans, Princess Katharine and the Magus injected some of their own philosophies of raising children without even realizing it? They're only human, after all, pardon the pun.

And another question: who's to say Goliath told Katharine and the Magus anything[ about raising a clan before being cast under the sleep spell? Would he have been willing to talk about Gargoyles at all when he was so suicidal*?

*(Re: Awakening commentary, Greg states that Goliath is essentially committing suicide despite knowing there are still eggs to care for.)

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Guardian - Heh, 'Out of print' has pretty negative connotations to me, but hopefully selling out the 1st printing is all this is. I don't know how that could happen when SLG still have CB#2 in stock and Diamond only sold 884 copies, but hopefully they just underestimated demand this time. I'm pretty sure SLG can print as many copies as they want since Dan Vado is briefly mentioned a possible special edition version of Gargoyles. The content doesn't change and is already approved.

The most annoying part for me is that there's not one single store I can point people to that has all 3 books in stock.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Guardian> Now that I think about it, it is possible that Angela had no idea that Goliath was either he biological father or her rookery father before Sevarius brought it up. If Tom, Katharine, and the Magus weren't aware of the gargoyle custom of communal parenting, they wouldn't have referred to Goliath as the hatchlings' father. They might have realized that Angela was probably Goliath's biological daughter, but I doubt they ever told her that, judging by her reaction when Sevarius breaks the news. I think she must have known that Goliath was a part of her extended family and maybe even realized in a very abstract way that he could have been her biological father. But between her human upbringing and the age difference between them no being what it should have been, she probably never really thought about the possibility until Sevarius revealed their genetic connection.

When the episode first came out, I remember a few fans suggesting that prior to learning that he was her father, Angela had been harboring a bit of a crush on Goliath, but I think I'll stay well away from that particular can of worms.

So maybe what Goliath mistook for a fixation on biological parentage was just Angela realizing for the first time that Goliath was her father in any sense of the word.

I still do think Angela is a little more interested in biological parentage than the average gargoyle. My theory is that she won't fully embrace communal parenting until she really sees it in action and realizes that it is a very positive and loving way to raise children, not "now that I know you're my biological daughter I want nothing to do with you."

Algernon> That's the thing. Goliath is actually a pretty good dad until Angela realizes that she is his biological daughter and his fears about playing favorites, keeping his culture alive, and Demona all surface. I agree that, had he been around, Hudson would have given Goliath a talking-to very similar to the one he gets from Diane Maza. Hudson probably had to work through the issues of raising multiple children much as Diane did and likely realizes that there are going to be times when you give special attention to one child because that's what the situation calls for. Hudson was probably closer to Goliath that he was to some of the other gargoyles in Goliath's generation, but that was because they shared interests and spent a lot of time together. And he didn't have to worry because the children he didn't bond closely with would likely bond with other gargoyles from their parent generations.

Demonskrye - [<---"9" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Guardian> You're correct that Angela didn't realise the biological connection between her and Golaith until Sevarius reaveled it in "monsters". Though Golaith clearly knew from the beginning, since Eliza points out that Angela bears a strong resemblance to Demona in "Avalon Part One". He just didn't get uncomfortable until Angela started making a big deal about it.

I just want to be clear on something. From the way I remember it, Angela doesn't find out she's Goliath's biological daughter until a few episodes on into the World Tour, episode titled Monsters . . . (Okay, that's relatively early on in the World Tour, I just checked).

No one here is assuming that Angela already "knew" Goliath to be her father when he first arrived on Avalon, right? I always figured it that he was more of a heroic figure and/or celebrity in her eyes in the beginning. I mean, with the stories Princess Katherine and the Magus (and maybe Tom) would have told, certainly there would be a small case of starry eyes when Angela first met Goliath.

As for Clan Building availability . . . I was working last night and, bored, checked BookMaster (I'm an employee of the Barnes & Noble company). It looks like Volume 2 is out of print. I think this is a good thing. Maybe this will spurn SLG to print more copies? Or can they not do that since their contract was not renewed?

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Demonskrye> I think you hit the nail on the head as to why many in the fandom were turned off the idea of communal rearing. Mainly that Golaith sucked at it, at least at first. He seemed to be under the impression that not favouring Angela because of biology meant treating her with cold indifference.

A good example of this would be his outburst at the beginning "sanctuary" when Angela had the sheer gall to address him in an affectionate manner. I like to think that had Hudson been on the World Tour, he would have gently lead Golaith aside at this point and smacked him upside the head for being such an ass.

Unfortunatly a lot of folks seem to assume that Golaith's "keep the hell away from me" style of parenting is the norm or even the ideal among Gargoyles.


Antiyonder here.

I posted my question in the ocmmunity portal, but would I be permitted to make a section for the other Gargoyles VHS releases on GargWiki?


Greg B> I think part of the reason why some fanfic authors dump the communal raising aspect of gargoyle culture is that we haven't actually seen it work yet. I personally don't agree with fans who suggest that the gargoyles of the Avalon Clan were raised communally by Tom, Katharine, and the Magus, because we have no evidence that any of them even knew that gargoyles raise their young communally. Certainly I think the Magus was involved in raising the clan, but it's not clear whether the young gargoyles saw him more as a father or a favorite uncle. Angela may "get" communal parenting in theory, but I'm not convinced that she is at the point of completely embracing it herself yet, the point where she would choose to raise her own children that way. The only two gargoyles who have the right to call her "daughter" who she has spent a reasonable amount of time with are her biological parents. She has met Coldstone and was aware of what he and Coldfire were doing when Coldfire had control of Angela's body, but most of those encounters have been brief and in "Reuinion" she was still thinking of Coldstone as "Gabriel's dad" rather than one of her own fathers.

This is one of the things I'm looking forward to seeing if/when we get more "Gargoyles" stories. [SPOILER] I want to see how Coldstone and Coldfire act towards Angela, how she in turn regards them, and how this effects her perception of communal parenting. As for Katana, I think it's going to be very interesting to see her progress in both accepting that she and Brooklyn really are done traveling through time and learning to regard these total strangers as her clan. [/SPOILER]

Additionally, I think there is a human tendency to look at the gargoyle method of parenting as depriving the children of something. Between our own upbringing and the incredibly crappy job Goliath did of introducing both Angela and us to the idea of communal parenting, I think some of us get the mistaken impression that all gargoyle children are aware that they have a biological parent and think that this relationship should be important, but that parent and child are forcibly kept apart and prevented from even acknowledging their biological bond. This is not true. Young gargoyles are probably well aware that they have two biological parents. They just aren't brought up to put any more importance on that relationship than their relationship with any other gargoyles in the generations that were parents to theirs. It just doesn't matter to them because that's how they've always been raised. If you and I found out we were born at the same hospital, we might think it was neat, but we wouldn't suddenly be best friends because of it, because our upbringing places no value on that fact. Had the Wyvern Massacre never happened, Goliath and Angela might still have had a very close relationship. Or maybe they wouldn't have, because Angela would have had many other parents to interact with. She would have been particularly close to some, not as much to others. As it turned out, the Wyvern Massacre did happen, and centuries later, Angela decided to leave Avalon for Manhattan with a gargoyle who happened to be her biological father and developed a close relationship with him. If Gabriel had been the one to accompany Goliath to Manhattan, Goliath probably would have developed a close relationship with him. He just wouldn't have briefly jeopardized it out of fear that he was favoring his biological child over his other children and concern that too much emphasis on biology would inevitably lead to Demona.

Demonskrye - [<---"The Tell-Tale Heart" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Chip> I noticed it too and figured it probably was the Daily Bugle, but since it wasn't 100% clear, I let it go.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

Greg> I was so surprised that I was the only one who noticed that.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Loooong story...some of it even true--Brooklyn

::Reads Chip's review:: Huh... ::checks his copy of Clan Building Volume 2::

Holy crap, it IS the Daily Bugle.

Greg Bishansky

Sorry for the triple post, but...

Greg Bishansky> I agree with you...I am an avid fanfic writer, sometimes I bite off more than I can chew, but one of the things that fascinates me the most about WRITING gargoyles fics is the fact that gargoyles are a separate spieces and that they have their own culture and ideals. I am particularly interested in how the gargoyle culture melds occaisonally with human culture (like Ishimura, or the fact that the Mayan gargs speak Spanish) and yet remains it's own distinct culture.

I can't stand fics that take away gargoyle culture, and I seldom read them...

Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Loooong story...some of it even true--Brooklyn

Okay, this has been the most anticipated story-line in the entire Gargoyles Fandom…and man it did not disappoint.
First, a shout out to the AMAZING art by Greg Guler…Karine Charlebois said that the art was beyond description at the 08 Gathering…but seeing it now—it knocks Karine from my favorite gargoyles comic artist to my second fave. (No offense to her, I do still LOVE her work)
So Brooklyn goes gliding away from the Eerie Building…presumably to get away from the Lovey-dovey couple. Too bad they appeared to have followed him. The look of annoyance on Brook's face was priceless. (Oh, incidentally…it took me ages to figure out what the sign on the building they landed on said. At first, I thought it might be the GOLDEN CUP building from the series, or perhaps the CASABLANCA HOTEL. I finally realized that it's THE DAILY BUGLE. Clever…you placed so many GARGOYLES references in SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN; it was kinda nice to see a Spidey reference in Gargs.)
You waste no time, the Gate appears, and Brook tries to pick it up…and it disintegrates. An enormous two-page Phoenix emerges and swallows Brooklyn whole, leaving Broadway and Angela behind, looking on in horror…I could hear Broadway's voice…
997, Brook emerges from the flames…I note that the Phoenix itself does not seem to appear, but rather an orange glow just off-screen. It makes me wonder if the Phoenix actually shows up when Brook is arriving, or if he just tumbles out of the flames, with no actual Phoenix manifesting.
I recognized Gillecomgain, Constantine III, and Mail Brigti right away (though, I did not know Mail's name…just that he was Gilly's father.) Their reaction's to Brooklyn's appearance was not unexpected. Brigti seems indifferent…oh look, a gargoyle. Oh look, a cow. Oh look, a horse. No big deal.
Gilly calls Brook a "demon". BIG shock there. (Rolls eyes) Constantine orders them to kill it. It reminds me of his "I don't like Gargoyle Eggs" line in "Avalon Part 1" C and G fail miserably to take Brook down…but this fourth figure…Brother Valmont, uses potent sorcery to shoot a flaming arrow that hits Brooklyn's leg.
From what the Magus said in "Avalon Part 3" I thought one needed a conduit to use magic…like the Grimorum, but this guy seems to be able to use magic without one.
The next few pages are the most interesting to me…Brook breaks apart the arrow and it bursts into magical flames…makes me wonder if it would have done that if he'd left it in.
Finella tears the wanted poster off the door…and mysteriously…there's another…and when the guard tears off the poster…there's yet another. Is this another one of Brother Valmont's magics?
And then the minions come…and it can't help the gargoyle-human relations that Brook is red…with horns. Based on Finella's expressions, I don't think she's ever seen a gargoyle before.
Moving on…Maol Chalvim and Kenneth III (AKA The Grim). I like The Grim, but it surprised me that he's Bodhe's dad…and it upset me slightly that when I did the historical research that Maol would overthrow him. But…I liked Findlaech's appearance too.
Then we some cool new gargoyle designs, including a new beast in the foreground, only to see them get smashed. I especially liked the female with the "beard" of spikes. She was cool. And another wanted poster is posted.
And Brooklyn awakes…I love how much Mary has changed in her attitude in just three short years…and Brook makes a Quantum Leap reference…very cool, considering that that show was quite popular in the 90's. (And still is in some circles)
I love that Brooklyn GETS why he's here so quickly. He understands how Avalon works, and figures that the Phoenix works the same way. I also think he's actually pleased with the situation…considering that he's now away from Broadway and Angela…I would be too in his shoes…and I HAVE been in those shoes before.
And we end with a full page picture of Demona that was so cool I took a picture and made it the wallpaper on my phone, and I'm not even that big a Demona fan. I note she's holding the wanted poster…and wonder if there is a new one on the cave wall. [/SPOILER]

I think that I will post my reviews of 11 & 12 at a later date, but I look forward to the arrival of my Bad Guys.

Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Loooong story...some of it even true--Brooklyn

Okay, I've been holding off on reviewing till I had my Bad Guys Trade in my hot little hands…it's been almost four weeks and I still have no BG trade…*Sigh* so I figure I might as well review now.

Not much to say here, I've been sitting on this story for almost a year, as I was in the 2008 Radio Play. (Playing Griff—My Favorite Character—thank you again for the gift of that role again Greg, and whoever else was involved. Wish I could have been at the 09 Gathering…but I just couldn't afford a trip to LA…apologies) I knew how it would turn out, but the art was spectacular…and using the art, Greg managed to throw a few more curves my way.
I didn't expect to see Macbeth battling alongside Robert the Bruce…makes me wonder just how involved Mac was with Scottish History. Didn't expect Duval to be a cyborg…THAT was a huge curveball. Also, I didn't realize it before, but even though she appeared, Fleur's name was never spoken aloud…which means it's technically still Canon in Training, even though she herself has appeared and is ranked "3".
Also didn't expect to see Leo and Una atop Knight's Spur…that was a pleasant surprise…though I was disappointed that we couldn't get a good look at Old Pog…I really like that gargoyle [/SPOILER]

Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Loooong story...some of it even true--Brooklyn

In an attempt to jump start some conversation.

Gargoyles: Unique Species? Or Humans With Wings?

Everyone seems to have their own views and beliefs and pet peeves when it comes to Gargoyles and fandom creations. Ultimately, the whole point of fanfic is to do your own thing with it. But, why, and I mean, why, is the most popular thing to do to steal the gargoyles culture.

I think I understand how this whole thing got started. A lot of people seemed to misinterpret exactly what Goliath was doing when he was trying to discourage Angela from asking about her parentage, and finally "acknowledging" her as his daughter.

That was all, mostly fear over the Demona factor. Angela was interested in her biological parentage, Goliath wanted to keep her away from Demona. He was afraid of Demona being a corrupting influence on the young gargoyle. That, and he didn't think he should give her special treatment over her Rookery siblings. But like Diane Maza pointed out in "Mark of the Panther", "Angela is the only hatchling with you."

Yes, Angela is his daughter, biologically. But Gabriel and Ophelia are still just as much his children as Angela is. Goliath didn't reject his gargoyle culture. Gabriel and Ophelia can call him "Father" without it being weird. They are all his children.

And, according to Greg Weisman, Angela and Broadway eventually have three biological children, and Brooklyn and his future mate Katana have two. But they are all children of the clan. Lex will be as much these hatchling's father as Brooklyn and Broadway.

And you know what? I think it's really cool. It makes the species unique, gives them their own culture, their own way of doing things. And that is one of the things that appealed to me about the series. It made this fictional species feel real.

But most fanfics I read (more like all) tend to reject this cultural difference and turn the gargoyles into "humans with wings". Take away the wings, talons, tails and the turning to stone, and there is no difference between them and humans. And, I want to know why? Do most fanfic writers not like it? Do they just not understand it? Or did they just misinterpret what was going on with Goliath and Angela?

And, on the whole Demona equation, Greg answered that better than I could here:


Very recently, a friend of mine and I got into a debate over a small scene in "A Handful of Thorns" where Brooklyn and Katana asked the entire clan to be Gnash and Egwardo's rookery parents. I, of course, didn't see any issue there. But my friend did. He thought it was forced, and that after so many years of time dancing, Brooklyn's patterns of thinking would have changed.

I disagree, of course. This is how Brooklyn and Katana were raised. This is what they know. It's their nature. Clan bonds are that powerful.

The other disagreement came from Greg's plans for 2198, specifically, gargoyles still practicing communal raising of their eggs. He likened them to Native Americans, and thinks that the only way they'd be allowed to live in society is if they integrated culturally.

So, the human need to Christianize and civilize "the other."

Now, let's be clear, my friend isn't condoning this. But the Native American tribe connection is the one he makes.

However, as I see them. Gargoyles aren't another race. They're another species. Changing their nature and the way they raise their eggs, which is fundamental to them, is akin to trying to get a male lion to not sleep all day, get to eat first, while a lioness does the hunting.

That, and the eggs take so long to hatch, anyway, and gargoyles tend to lead such violent lives, and this aspect of their nature is a necessity, otherwise you have a lot of orphaned eggs.

In the end, we both agreed that it came down to the whole nature vs nurture argument. He kept his Native American comparison, and I kept my pride of lions comparison.

But I figured it would make a nice debate here. I know we've had it before. But I think it's fascinating to discuss.

Greg Bishansky

Hello guys, I'm back.

(Well, technically, I never left, been lurking for a while) The internet is down at my house, so I've been lurking using library and school computers, & I've been quiet cuz I didn't wish to take the time to find a new quote. Just wanted to pipe up and see [SPOILER] if I can figure out how to work these new spoiler tags [/SPOILER]

Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Loooong story...some of it even true--Brooklyn

The sales are in for the trades: http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/15821.html

Clan-Building vol 2 - 884
Bad Guys - 647

That's down from Clan-Building vol 1 sales of 1,454 from January 2008: http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/12097.html As I understand it, those numbers are how many copies comic shops have ordered from Diamond. So it doesn't include Amazon/BN sales, Gathering and Comic-Con sales, or SLG's own online & Boutiki sales. Of course, the CB#1 figure didn't include those either, but I'm not terribly worried. Comics retail has deflated over the past year and more folks have moved to online sales--it was simply more difficult to find Gargoyles trades in stores this time around. We don't know what SLG's internal numbers are or what their threshold is.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Kris - Amazon is the cheapest, *except* for Clan-Building volume 2. They're selling it at full price: http://www.amazon.com/Gargoyles-Clan-Building-Greg-Weisman/dp/1593621671 I think that's because they've never reached "in stock" status with the book so they've never had a stable inventory on which to apply a discount. They've only shipped out some pre-orders but have been incapable of meeting demand. No one knows why yet.

I recommend buying from SLG: http://www.slgcomic.com/Gargoyles-Clan-Building-Volume-Two_p_1249.html Both stores charge full price but Amazon has an unknown ETA. There's no reason to worry about which method carries the most weight--your options are limited to one at the moment.

But I'm curious about why you never got a copy from your comic shop. I haven't heard about SLG or Diamond ignoring comic shop orders. Did your shop actually say they ordered the book and were rebuked or could they have just forgotten to place the order?

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Kris> GargWiki has a full color, logo-free version of the Dingo cover in the article for "Strangled":


Demonskrye - [<---"The Tell-Tale Heart" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

KRIS - I know how you feel; I'm still waiting for my bookstore to get in the "Bad Guys" trade paperback, four weeks after it came out.

[SPOILER] I wonder whether Magus the horse is the same as the horse that drew the cart bearing the eggs from Castle Wyvern to Kenneth's court in "Avalon Part One". It would fit the recurring characters motif of "Gargoyles". I'd like to ask Greg about it, but I'm afraid that it would seem an idea masquerading as a question. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

I personally don't like it when gargoyles are drawn with nails. I like it the way they are drawn in the TV show. I think it looks so much better that way.
Audra - [birdygirl85 at hotmail dot com]
I <3 Brooklyn

@the talon's thing:

I suspect it's more a case of it being more work than it's worth to animate the long fingernails reliably, they aren't drawn on the human characters either. The Marvel comics had them with fingernails as well. The painted artwork on the second season DVD set has them with fingernails, too. And I think biologically it makes more sense for them to have long hard nails instead of the whole hand claws.


My store never got a the copy of Clan-Building Volume 2 that I ordered. I just got back from a 3-week stay in Montreal and it never came in. They got Bad Guys (a week after most of you guys got it at comic shops), but not Volume 2.

Where should I buy it from that will help the most ? I could wait for SLG/Amaze Ink to possibly re-list the trades in Previews and try ordering it again, but the comic shop seems like it will have the least amount of sales resonance. They only order the one copy that I want and they don't replace shelf copies of Gargoyles with more, simply to have it on their shelves.

Buying from Amazon, on the other hand, you're helping deplete their stock and they often re-order (and in bulk, not just replacing the copy you ordered).

What about buying from SLG directly ? Does that carry any more weight than buying from third party ?

If I'm not mistaken, Amazon is the cheapest way to go for me as a consumer, so there's that to consider too. Although in the past-- we're talking like 10 years ago--ordering directly from SLG resulted in fun stuff like free preview comics/pamphlets and stuff along with the comics and trades I ordered from them.

Has Greg Weisman ever indicated where it's best to buy from ?

Re: Bad Guys
Is there anywhere I can see the Dingo cover colored ? That's one of the few disadvantage with the digest-sized trade paperbacks, no color on those covers for the black and white book. Speaking of the covers, why did Greg Guler draw Fang all weird, once again, in the Redemption Squad group shot cover ? Karine got him down perfect in the interiors (agreeing with whoever previously said that she would be a perfect artist for the main series, her style is about as close to the look of the show--when it was looking its best--as you can get). Otherwise I liked most of Guler's Bad Guys covers, especially Dingo's and Hunter's.

Hope SLG does hardcovers eventually, I don't like the smaller format, prefer the standard comic-sized pages (main reason why it's worthwhile to hold on to the individual issues we did get, for now).

Where there any fixes/changes to the art or dialogue, from the "bi-monthly" issues to the trades ?

Kris - [plekopleko at hotmail dot com]

[SPOILER] Do we have any canon-in-training information about where/when Brooklyn, Mary, and Finella will be dropped off by the phoenix? Seems like it was sometime in the 70s, but I'm not really sure where or when.

Also, my memory is fuzzy on this as well, but didn't Tom tell Goliath in the Avalon episodes that he had been periodically traveling to the outside world to see if Goliath and his clan had awakened? If this is true, could 1970s Tom end up running into Mary and Finella on one of his trips to the outside world? I'm trying to think back on the episodes and see if this would be inconsistent but I'm drawing a blank. [/SPOILER]


How wonderful it is to have new Gargoyles material!!! It's so much fun to read the new comics, read the radio play on Ask Greg ... boy, I've been having fun catching up with the new stuff in the last few weeks. :) The art in the comics has been incredible, and the storytelling has been so wonderful too ... makes me remember why the series itself was just so darn great.

Some thoughts ...
[SPOILER] Do you think maybe we've seen Lexington's love now? It might have been mentioned a little bit already, and maybe I was reading too much into it ... but it struck me in the comic how Lexington was a bit too eager to make friends with Staghart, definitely seeming to sort of admire the guy. Even though Coco insists that "No one calls him Amp," Lex is quick to jump in and say that he'll call him that. Coco and Staghart also seem to laugh just a little *too* hard when Lex asks if they're mates. Ah well, again, maybe I'm reading a bit too much into it ... [/SPOILER]

I'm also really glad Greg decided to post the Gargoyles/Spider-Man crossover radio play on Ask Greg. How enjoyable, and I like how it gave us a little bit more continuation on many of the Gargoyles characters and plots ... my favorite being that Goliath and Elisa do get some more kissin' action. Part of me was afraid that they wouldn't be as romantic of a couple in later stories ... not sure why I thought that way, but I'm glad that they do at least agree that kissing is an okay custom in their relationship. :)

Again, so good to see new material ... take care everyone!


Just wanted to post my next review...

My Review For Gargoyles #12, "Phoenix"...

[SPOILER] - So, we have finally come to the last chapter of Clan-Building. As with Issue #11, I'll do my best to review this one with my initial impressions at the forefront, though I know I won't be able to resist mentioning further information and insight from the Gathering.

- Again, lets start with this awesome cover. After all the mixed feelings I've had about the numerous covers (both from Gargoyles and Bad Guys), I'm happy that this final cover really hit all the right spots. It is brightly colored and visually interesting. It is funny due to the obvious Star Wars reference and thus works well to grab the attention of comic book store shoppers. It has a lot going on without giving anything away or being too busy. I really think it is the best cover (aside from Issue #1 and possibly #5) and so I was thrilled it made it to the cover of Clan-Building Volume 2.

- On to the meat of the book now (and boy, is there a lot of meat, this thing is crammed full), we open, no in 997 with Brooklyn as I suspected, but rather in 1997 with Goliath. His monologue here is really great. It bookends this chapter, but more importantly it bookends the Clan-Building series as it parallels directly with Goliath's monologue to Elisa (and us) in Issue #1 about his clan. You could even say it goes all the way back to the opening sequence of the Season 2 episodes. Anyway, it works beautifully here. I can't help but think of Closing Ceremonies at the Gathering when I read it now. Greg Weisman talked about how the moment was so bittersweet, and it was... is. But reading this issue, and Goliath's monologue in particular, really gives me hope for this franchise and this fandom.

- Meanwhile, a thousand years ago, Brook is giving his own inner monologue, but he isn't doing it in quiet solitude, he is giving it in the thick of the Battle of Rathveramoen! I like that even as people are dieing all around him and his own life is truly at risk, his thoughts dwell on his family back home. We worries that they are worried about him, but of course, they barely have time to worry at all, but he doesn't know that yet. But he realizes to get home to see his family again, his job is to help the Grim win the battle, keep the Grimorum out of the wrong hands, and keep the last bunch of gargoyles in Scotland safe. Of course, all of these objectives are in jeopardy of going undone. Ironically, the battle itself seems to be going well. Brooklyn, "Demona" and the clan are kicking some ass (or rather breaking some necks, slicing some flesh and causing some heavy damage from high-altitude drops). This battle is a lot of fun visually. And there is a lot going on. Brook has a couple really great moments. First he and a fellow gargoyle, "Bro", have this great exchange about being rookery brothers. It was very cool to finally meet a rookery sibling of the trio (knowing that they were, of course), but it wasn't until the Gathering where Greg Weisman pointed out that the gargoyle behind these two watching this exchange is probably Brooklyn's BIOLOGICAL brother. How cool is that?! We get a great example of how relationships work within gargoyle clans. So cool, and such a contrast to what we see going on with the humans, where blood relationships define everything (and seem to be causing a lot of trouble). Then Brooklyn gets a very cool moment with Demona where they discuss Goliath. She is such a hypocrite here. She bitches that when the humans are finished fighting each other, they will come after the gargoyles, but her plan is to kill their human allies once they've defeated their rivals! Does she even hear herself? Well, this is Demona, her own worst enemy after all.

- While the battle rages, not far away, the Grimorum has finally fallen into the wrong hands. Mary and Finella (and Magus the horse) do what they can to get the book back, but to little avail. Valmont uses the book to cast a pretty nasty spell that seems to amplify the one he has used a few times before. Fiery arrows rain down on the battle and a lot of gargoyles are injured or killed. We get a really sad scene of the sacrifice of one gargoyle for her mate. But this whole thing makes me so angry at Demona. She uses these deaths (both in this chapter and in City of Stone) as fuel for her hate, but in doing so she negates all that they are fighting and dying for. And THEN, she remarks how she cannot undo these awful things that have happened. Well, duh, girl, but making things worse is not the solution! What a hypocrite and a bitch! She drives me nuts, and to all of the Demona-apologist fans out there I ask you to pay attention to what is going on here.

- Meanwhile, the humans are battling it out. Constantine and the Grim seem evenly matched until Constantine threatens Bodhe, then the Grim really lets him have it. Constantine's reign as King ends as it begins, with someone getting stabbed, though at least this isn't a cold murder, but a death in battle. The Grim has that over Constantine. And speaking of Bodhe, he seems to be getting trounced by Gillecomgain, which is no surprise in that Gille is twice his size and probably much more skilled in battle. Bodhe seems to barely survive, and only luck saves him when Gille gets distracted by his father's death, but you can tell the event probably traumatized him for life (Greg indicated at the Gathering that this event, the murder of the Grim a few years later and the murder of Bodhe's own sone a few years after that all lead to his behavior in City of Stone. This all has made Bodhe very interesting to me). Findlaech really comes across as a good guy here, he wanted to share with his brother and Mail Brigti refused, he didn't want to kill his nephew because after it all he didn't want to end his brother's line. It really makes me wonder what Findlaech thought when Maol Chalvim usurped the Grim a few years down the line. And speaking of that, some of Constantine's final words seem almost prophetic. He senses Maol's thirst for the throne and blattanly tells the Grim of it. He even inspires Gillecomgain to become the first Hunter.

- Anyway, the battle ends, the arrows are stopped and just when things seem to have called down the Phoenix reappears. Brooklyn is understandably annoyed. He doesn't get to see what comes next, and we can relate, we don't either. Guess it is off to hit the history books to see what happened next... for now. Before he is off, Brook smoothly recovers the Grimorum from Demona and passes it back to Finella and Mary. I was a bit surprised that Finella didn't get a chance to use magic herself as I thought she would due to her talk in #11, but I wasn't surprised that Mary and Finella asked to go with Brooklyn, having had that idea spoiled for me years ago online. I suspect that all three of them thought they would be going right back to the time and place Brook came from and I suspect therein lies Mary's real motivation. I think she wants to see Tom again and knows he is safe and alive (and married) in Brook's time. Well, we don't get to find out... yet. The Phoenix, once again, seems to have Brooklyn singled out and we can assume the "Time-Fowl" snatched up Mary and Finella and the Grimorum too.

- So we, the audience, pop back to 1997 to the moments right after Brooklyn left... and he reappears. We are told that he is not alone, and I think the less-informed (or less spoiled) fan might think Finella and Mary are with him, but most of us know better. Back at the Castle, Hudson and Lex finally come home from London and as I suspected Coldstone and Coldfire came with. I'm thrilled that they are finally members of the Clan in full. And then we come to probably the most anticipated moment for fans for the last ten years. The reveal of Brooklyn's family. I have to admit, I didn't know what to expect outside of a female Ishimuran gargoyle, her and Brook's son and a gargoyle beast (and an egg, okay I had a good idea what the egg would look like). Katana is very cool. I love that we finally have a beaked female in the canon, I love that attention was paid to her number of fingers and toes to reflect her clan of origin. I do have a slight worry that the two beaked gargoyles would end up together. I know that a beaked gargoyle could just as well mate with a non-beaked gargoyle, but I worry that some fans might not see this. I dunno. A minor worry for me. Gnash is a lot of fun, he seems older than his age indicates. Must be the weapon. Really, the whole family seems like they have a lot of stories to tell. Or rather, for Greg to tell. I like Brooklyn's line about his journey being a long story and "some of it even true". Ties us nicely with the journey Goliath set us on back in #2 and with Shari's tales. And lets not forget Fu-Dog. I LOVE Fu-Dog's design. Very cool. I hope he and Bronx get along. Other nice things about this final scene include Hudson laughing and being so happy. When I see him here, I think back to his line in "The Gathering" where he is so happy that they are not the last and not alone. He gets to see his decimated clan grow. How cool. I really like how Angela wants to hold 'Egwardo'. I never thought about her never having seen an egg before (I suppose I figured she saw the clutches in Ishimura or ChacIxChel), but I love the motherly aspect this gives her and Broadway's reaction to it. A lot of fans seem to focus on Katana's reluctance to let go of the egg, but I don't see that as that big of a deal. It isn't like she violently refused, and after all they've been through, you have to understand her reluctance. Anyway, Elisa's reaction to showing up was really cool. I mean she was probably expecting Goliath, Bronx, Broadway, Angela and Brooklyn at most. Instead she comes out of the elevator too see this whole motley crew. Coldstone, Coldfire, Katana, Gnash, Fu-Dog and even Brooklyn must've been a real shock. I like her "Whoa... Goliath...?" But, there isn't time for explanations, we have to go kick some butt. As Greg indicated at the Gathering, I'm sure they did. All these gargoyles versus Wolf, Jackal and Hyena. As Lex states, they'll "never know what hit 'em!" A GREAT ending to this awesome Clan-Building arc. Of course, it is "Never The End..." Not for the Manhattan Clan or the Gargoyles series or the fandom. This comic couldn't have been released at a more poignant time. Great job, Greg. Really, this is awesome stuff. And ALL of the artists made it work so beautifully as well. Thank You!

Eagerly awaiting Gargoyles #13, "Manhattan, Chapter One"... [/SPOILER]

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

Litwolf> I actually really like the art in that issue, but that does bug me too. I'm right there with you, I can't picture the gargoyles being able to claw their way up the side of a building with fingernails. But I just take it as that particular artist's interpretation, and try not to dwell on it.

I just noticed something interesting about the last issue of CBV2, Phoenix. Correct me if I am wrong but the gargoyles have always been shown to have talons. Straight up huge claws on their hands. No fingers or anything like that. Just talons. In 'Phoenix', they have fingers, and fingernails! Rather than talons, they seem to have long and sharp nails. Its especially obvious on the very last page [SPOILER] looking at Goliath's hands holding Elisa [/SPOILER].

Interesting, I think. Do you think its wrong for the artist to have drawn gargoyles this way or simply an artistist's choice? Personally, it kind of bugs me because I like gargoyles having huge claws that can rip through solid stone.

<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

I think it could have been either way, really. The illuminati probably didn't consider Mace Malone to be "indispensable", so even if they were aware that Matt double-crossed him, they might have found it...more amusing than upsetting.

But then again, it's possible that Matt duped them.


PAUL> I think it's pretty obvious that Xanatos doesn't inform the Illuminati of everything he does. They certainly didn't know about his plan to swindle them out of the Stone of Destiny.

And who says the Illuminati are insidious? I think it's way too soon to say that. We still don't know much about them or their goals.

Greg Bishansky

Greg B> It wasn't that obvious to me. As insidious as the Illuminati are, I think it's quite possible that they knew about Matt's interference and approved of it. In fact, Matt's gambit seems a lot like something Xanatos would do, and they certainly approve of HIS schemes at least tacitly.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Both sticker sets are still available guys if anyone wants! One is 100% complete, the other is missing only #77. They're 100% free to you!

And I still need to get off my butt and finish my gathering journal. It's like 4 pages long and I need to edit it down.

Andrea - [SailorV77 at yahoo dot com]

Sorry for the double post, but I forgot one more change to canon-in-training.

Before, at "Ask Greg", Greg indicated that all the London gargoyles look like lions, unicorns, and griffons. But now we know about Constance and Staghart, who resemble a wild boar and a white stag respectively. That's also a change.

Todd Jensen

PHIL - Greg mentioned once that he had thought of changing some canon-in-training information around to ensure more surprises for his readers, though he also seems to have decided to do it mainly in cases where he's had further thoughts on this aspect of the Gargoyles Universe or that, rather than just for its own sake.

So far, the comics have agreed more with canon-in-training than they disagreed with it. Canon-in-training that became canon:

1. The Illuminati are behind the Quarrymen.
2. Jon Canmore and Castaway are the same person.
3. The Double Date.
4. Goliath, Elisa, Angela and Bronx met Coldstone in Tibet during the Avalon World Tour.
5. Coldstone and Coldfire are Gabriel's biological parents (though I doubt they'd consider that important).
6. The London clan's country estate.
7. [SPOILER] The Illuminati leadership is at Carbonek, where the Holy Grail is kept, and includes some version of Percival. [/SPOILER]
8. [SPOILER] Brooklyn is whisked away on his Timedancing adventures when the Phoenix Gate appears in front of him, Broadway, and Angela. [/SPOILER]
9. [SPOILER] Brooklyn's first Timedancing adventure has him protecting Mary and Finella (along with the Grimorum) while Constantine and his men hunt them. [/SPOILER]
10. [SPOILER] Brooklyn returns to modern-day Manhattan forty years later, from his perspective, but only a few seconds later from Broadway and Angela's, and returns with Katana, Nashville, an egg, and Fu-Dog. [/SPOILER]
11. Dingo's real name is Harry Monmouth.
12. The Redemption Squad is composed of Hunter (Robyn Canmore), Dingo, Matrix, Yama, and Fang, and founded much the same way that Greg Weisman said it would be.

The two big canon-in-training deviations are:

1. [SPOILER] Peredur and Duval are two different people. [/SPOILER]
2. [SPOILER] The Phoenix itself, rather than the Phoenix Gate, being responsible for Brooklyn's Timedancing (which provides, incidentally, a great explanation for why Brooklyn wasn't able to return to the present for forty years from his perspective - instead of handling a magical talisman which can send you back home if you speak the incantation correctly, he was dealing with a magical fiery bird with its own agenda). [/SPOILER]

So far, we've had more canon-in-training confirmed than denied (and that's not counting such smaller matters such as the use of the terms "gargate", [SPOILER] "Humility Spell", and "Wind Ceremony" [/SPOILER] or female gargoyles laying three eggs in the course of their lives), but we have had a couple of changes, and should be ready for more. And that's not counting the outright surprises (Thailog now a member of the Illuminati, Brentwood teaming up with Thailog, now as a willing assistant rather than a mindlessly obedient slave, Shari's entrance, Dr. Sato befriending the clan, Maggie's pregnancy, [SPOILER] Brother Valmont, Constantine and Gillecomgain's team-up [/SPOILER], etc.).

Todd Jensen

Not necessarily. My interpretation (then and now): Matt completed his entire task to the letter. From the point Goliath entered the hotel, he was Mace's responsibility. Mace should have adapted for any contingency. I would think the most powerful organization in the world wouldn't appreciate shifting blame or shirking responsibility.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

PAUL> Obviously Hacker didn't know that Matt gave Goliath the key.
Greg Bishansky

Another "revelation" has struck me, that I didn't find any answer to in the archives.

At the end of "Revelations," Hacker tells Matt that his job had been to get Goliath to the Hotel Cabal, and it wasn't his fault that Mace couldn't keep him. However, since Matt had given Goliath his key and attacked Mace before Mace could kill Goliath, it seems pretty clear to me that it WAS Matt's fault that Mace couldn't hold him.

So my question is this: Was Hacker's comment about it not being Matt's fault an outright lie, or did Hacker simply not know the truth about what Matt did to Mace?

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

TODD & MATT> [SPOILER] The reason I think Duval is the one that gets mentioned and not Peredur... I think the lower echelon members don't even get to hear the name "Peredur." It's a secret society, after all, the identity of Number One should be shrouded in secrecy. They know there is a number one, but that's all they know.

Greg also mentioned, and I'm paraphrasing from memory, at the 2008 Gathering, that Duval serves as Peredur's "right hand man." So, Duval probably handles the day to day affairs while Peredur focuses on the big picture. [/SPOILER]

Greg Bishansky
I think it's cute in a deluded sort of way to consider yourself part of the "we" when you own about 1/100,000,000th of the company.

Recent discussion has got me thinking.

Nine years ago (has it been that long?) there was an Arthurian survivors contest at "Ask Greg". With the recent "Stone of Destiny" storyline in which Percival seems to have been split into Duval and Peredur, I'm wondering what other changes have occurred on the list of Arthurian survivors.

Just to refresh your memory (and for those who don't remember it at all), here's the list as of nine years ago:
1. King Arthur Pendragon. Slept under a spell in the Hollow Hill.
2. Merlin. Son of Oberon by a mortal woman. Imprisoned in the Crystal Cave.
3. The Lady of the Lake. One of the Oberati.
4. Sir Percival. The Fisher King. Mr. Duval. Founder of the Illuminati. Spends a lot of time in Castle Carbonek, a sort of mini-traveling-Avalon, where time passes differently. Also uses the Holy Grail to maintain his youth, though at a very real physical cost, due to his, shall we say, sins.
5. Lady Blanchefleur. Percival's wife. Queen of Castle Carbonek. She lives there and uses the Grail. The only cost being her estrangement from Percival.
6. Morgana le Fay. A changling in the old-fashioned sense.
7. Nimue. A sorceress with connections to Merlin, the Oberati and Morgana. (Think about it.)
8. The Green Knight. An Oberati.

So what do you think? Has anything changed in the past decade? Are there still only eight survivors? If we replace "Percival" with "Peredur" and take out the reference to Mr Duval, is the list still accurate?

I submitted this at "Ask Greg", but it will be a while before he gets to it. What do you all think?

Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]

MATT - [SPOILER] Good question; I've wondered about that as well. And we know that at least one of the recipients of the Illuminati's longevity, Mace Malone, was definitely not Holy Grail-achiever material.

On the other hand, Duval's present condition suggests that, as Greg says, he's had to pay a price for his actions. Though we don't yet know exactly how he became a cyborg.

To be fair about it, while the Grail is traditionally the font of purity, there are a couple of passages in Malory that raise questions about it. In an early section, King Pelles - whom you may remember from "Gargoyles" #8 as Merlin's partner in the borrowing of the Stone of Destiny from Fergus - has an evil brother named Sir Garlon who can turn invisible, and rides around the countryside, stabbing people in the back - but this assassin is permitted to enter Carbonek. And Pelles later on arranges the conception of Galahad through unscrupulous methods. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Todd> [SPOILER] I like your thoughts about Duval a lot, and I do think it is telling that Greg chose to use Duval and not Peredur in the Radio Play, but I wonder; if Duval does all the dirty work, what is his explanation for his (presumed) long life? Isn't it the Grail that provides these upper echelons their immortality? [/SPOILER]
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

[SPOILER] And it also ties in with one of the big queries I've had about the Illuminati leadership in the past.

The Illuminati have gotten involved in a lot of shady things already. Their members include Xanatos, Thailog, Castaway, and Mace Malone (though he's now deceased), they support the Quarrymen, they're organized crime's silent partner, they operate the Hotel Cabal, and they stole a national treasure. But their leadership is connected with the Holy Grail, which traditionally held those around it to high moral standards. That sounds difficult to reconcile. Maybe, however, if Peredur isn't directly involved in those actions, it doesn't count - though Duval's still permitted in Carbonek. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

[SPOILER] No, Todd, I think you have a point. Honestly, I think there's a lot of sense to the idea that, with so many members, the actual number 1 of the Illuminati doesn't really try to involve himself too much in the actual nuances of enacting his plans. I mean, he has 665 members under him of varying degrees of usually great importance. [/SPOILER]
Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix at live dot com]

Count me as another person who'd like to see the Quarrymen get more exploration in future graphic novels. I still think that the Goliath Chronicles did a grave disservice in portraying them all (after "The Journey") as professional mercenary-types, with the frightened citizens nearly all gone. Of course, they might have wanted to avoid repeats of Vinnie's role in "The Journey" - I can't imagine panicky civilians wanting to be part of an organization that hires cybernetic criminals, fires artillery in downtown Manhattan, or attacks passenger trains with plenty of humans on board, no matter how afraid of gargoyles they are. (I've sometimes wondered whether the almost exclusive "professional thug" membership of the Goliath Chronicles Quarrymen could explain the "why are they trying to kill the gargoyles if they know that the gargoyles are really protectors?" plothole - maybe the Quarrymen are really just a bunch of criminals who want the gargoyles out of the way so that they can rob the city unhindered, and the "hate group" atmosphere was just a cover? But even if that's what they were, they could have handled their campaign much better - especially Castaway's open leadership of it. There's a reason why Lex Luthor, the Kingpin, and the Tombstone of "The Spectacular Spider-Man" take care to dissociate themselves from the super-villains they hire to get rid of the super-hero.)

Read the final act of the Radio Play a short while ago. Fun ending. I thought it [SPOILER] especially appropriate that the Illuminati wind up with the Spear of Destiny, since it's usually linked to the Holy Grail in the Arthurian cycle. Of course, the Spear of Destiny in more modern mythology usually tends to be divorced from its Arthurian associations, such as striking the Dolorous Blow that cripples the Fisher King. [/SPOILER]

One other thought. [SPOILER] Shari says that the Spear and Crown are being sent off to Duval. [/SPOILER] That reminded me that it's always Duval who gets mentioned as the big Illuminati authority - he's the one who calls up Xanatos in "The Journey", for example. [SPOILER] Nobody mentions Peredur, beyond the indication that he's the Number One at the top. Maybe this is left over from Greg's original plans, but could Duval be some sort of front man for Peredur? The guy who handles most of the day-to-day work of the Illuminati, while Peredur thinks of the overall plan, such as making things ready for Arthur's (expected) return in 2198? [/SPOILER]

Of course, this may be reading too much in a line from a non-canon crossover Radio Play.

Todd Jensen

Paul> I'm guessing he just spent it on something during his stay in 975.

I searched "Xanatos" and "coin" in the Ask Greg section and didn't find the question I'm about to ask, but I can't believe that nobody asked it.

What did Xanatos do with the rest of the coins that he had received for rescuing Princess Elena?

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Personally, I enjoyed Bad Guys as a whole overall (especially in the trade paperback form) because of the consistency of the art throughout. Karine Charlebois did an excellent job. I hope that if SLG ever gets the Gargoyles license again, that SLG and Greg Weisman hire her to do the next spin off.

I also wish that we had had a consistent artist for the main Clan Building story. The changing artists are very evident when reading through the trade and actually distracts from the story, in my opinion.

Overall, I'm happy we have complete trades, complete stories, and I hope we get more in the future.

Anthony Tini

Personally, I enjoyed Bad Guys as a whole overall (especially in the trade paperback form) because of the consistency of the art throughout. Karine Charlebois did an excellent job. I hope that if SLG ever gets the Gargoyles license again, that SLG and Greg Weisman hire her to do the next spin off.

I also wish that we had had a consistent artist for the main Clan Building story. The changing artists are very evident when reading through the trades and actually distracts from the story, in my opinion.

Overall, I'm happy we have complete trades, complete stories, and I hope we get more in the future.

Anthony Tini

Battle Beast > I was kidding.
Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix at live dot com]

Depressing how casually it flies by that in a list containing blood, profanity and some of the violence we've seen in the comic, Lex ultimately having a gay mate is the most dicey. I'm not saying anyone here is drawing an equivalency or that it's not probably a realistic assessment of the way corporate America would assess the situation. It just icks me out.

(Anyway, 'Doctor Who' has nary a drop of blood or blue language or anything explicitly saucy beyond innuendo, but it has no hang-ups about depicting characters of different sexualities. Its audience figures are enormous, the toys and sticker books sell like hotcakes. Kids worship Captain Jack.)

Todd: I really like your point about the Tiger replacing Dingo. As for your speculation, the real-life return of the Stone of Destiny meant that story had to come earlier but it's possible that time could go much more quickly in future issues. [SPOILER] It would be easy to skip three months to the arrival of the Ultra-Pack; I just wonder whether Greg would want to do a Coyote 6 story so soon after a Coyote 5 one. [/SPOILER] I think the multi-trickster story and Renard's death are ones I'd especially like to see (and they might be logical bedfellows since they'd probably involve Fox on some level). I also think Broadway is overdue a bigger role in the comic. But above all, I'm most excited to see the evolution of the Quarrymen (I thought all the different shades of opinion in the NY cast were fascinating). And Queen Mab. Really hope Greg is able to get to her story since it sounds like it could be quite epic.

I do wonder whether if we do see more 'Gargoyles' material it's more likely to be spin-offs for the time being. Partly because the B&W books are cheaper to produce, partly because the spin-off casts are much smaller and have fewer people and plots to service and partly because [SPOILER] Clan-Building gives a bit of closure to that corner of the universe. [/SPOILER] Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing more of the spin-offs for the time being, especially given how well 'Bad Guys' turned out.

"The last time I was sentenced to death, I ordered four hyper-vodkas for my breakfast. All a bit of a blur after that... I woke up in bed with both of my executioners. Lovely couple, they stayed in touch! Can't say that about most executioners." -- Captain Jack

Staghart isn't Gay, that we know of... but Lex there... that'd be interesting.
battle Beast - [SUPPORT SLG]
That is all I will say.

I suddenly want a story involving Lex and Staghart going to a Gay Day.
Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix at live dot com]

Greg> YOu can think it's deluted all you want; the fact is, I still *own* part of the company. And the more shares I buy, the more I will own.

I went to the Share-Holders meeting, and I've voted on several issues. (they let you do that.) I get a dividend check, too.

You gotta start somewhere. I never said it would be easy.

battle Beast - [SUPPORT SLG]
That is all I will say.

Finally got my hands on a copy of JLA Showcase #1 from February 2000 in which Greg wrote his Capt. Atom/Gargoyles parody. It is too much fun. Picked it up off E-bay for like 6 bucks too.



I would like to see more about the Quarrymen.

Most of them seem to be humans who are simply afraid of the gargoyles, not knowing much about them. How many of them would be anti-gargoyle zealots, perhaps willing to upgrade the way Jackal, Hyena, or Wolf did just to be able to take on the gargoyles?

Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]

Battle Beast> You do realize that ten shares is nothing, right? If you find the walk around Mickey Mouse actor's half eaten donut on the sidewalk, you'd probably have just as much pull at Disney. Maybe more.

The walk around character probably has more stock.

Greg Bishansky
I think it's cute in a deluded sort of way to consider yourself part of the "we" when you own about 1/100,000,000th of the company.

Demonskrye> No, I realise that. I see your side, too, and I realise that.

But yes, we are in the business of selling admissions, and we don't want to say no to one groupe because of their lifestyle. We want money, plain and simple.

battle Beast - [SUPPORT SLG]
That is all I will say.

I would imagine that pretty much any group that wants to buy park tickets is allowed to. Those parks are in the business of selling park admission and then selling overpriced food and souvenirs to the people inside the park. Why on earth would Disney ever turn down ANY group that wanted to bring hundreds of customers into their park? It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with business.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Demonskrye - I did in sort of a coy way by putting @SLGPublishing in the middle of a tweet thanking followers. The next step is voting for the winner on 9/24. If SLG is a finalist, we'll need to get votes from comic fans far and wide to have a chance.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Battle Beast> There are people in the world and the U.S. who would raise a stink if Disney did anything to actively encourage Gay Days at the Disney parks. And I'm sure there are people who are unhappy that Disney doesn't actively prohibit Gay Days at the parks. So Disney takes the corporate middle road, allowing the event to take place so they can enjoy the monetary benefits, but never officially condoning it so they don't upset the people who are opposed to it or give the impression that they're taking a political stand.

Just pointing out that it's not as though Disney feels tons of pressure from one side of the issue and absolutely none from the other.

Landon> Did you tell Dan Vado that you were going to inform the "Gargoyles" fandom about the Shine a Light voting? If you haven't, I think it would be good to mention it. There's no way we can know what votes come from where, so I don't think it would be fair for us to take sole credit for SLG's numbers going up. But if you let Vado know that you did it, he can draw his own conclusions about how useful "Gargoyles" fans might be to have around.

Demonskrye - [<---"The Tell-Tale Heart" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

A few more thoughts about what the future might hold for Goliath and his clan (assuming that we get more graphic novels in the series):

[SPOILER] According to the Gathering reports printed here, the subtitle for the next arc would be "Manhattan", indicating that the next few adventures would be set in New York, in contrast to the abroad tone of "Clan-Building Volume Two" (where most of the story was set in Great Britain, chiefly Scotland and London). Here are a few possible prospects for the clan's city adventures, based on what we already know.

1. As I said before, the ending of "Phoenix" was clearly a set-up for the formation of the Ultra-Pack, though I don't know if that would be the very next adventure; it would probably take a while for Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf to make all the necessary contacts and plans to build the Ultra-Pack - particularly reaching the point where we'd have a more advanced Coyote robot to set things up. (In "Upgrade", several weeks intervened between the Pack's foiled bank robbery that motivated them to upgrade themselves and their big fight with the gargoyles.) But I'm certain that the Ultra-Pack's emergence is in the near future.

2. In "Turf", Tony Dracon's star was clearly waning. For the first time in the series, he was still in prison at the start of the episode, rather than out on bail as in "The Silver Falcon" and "Protection"; evidently he's lost enough of his power and influence that he can't muster up the legal trickery he once did. And the events of that episode would have broken his power still further. So what will he be doing, now that he's no longer the big mob boss? And who'll take his place as the big mob boss? (Probably not Brod, since things didn't go well for him in "Turf", either.)

3. There'll almost certainly have to be more stories about Castaway's campaign against the gargoyles; I'd like to see those, especially to serve as a further antidote against the Goliath Chronicles handling of the Quarrymen - though "Invitation Only" and "Estranged" were a good start.

4. Linked to that, I'm certain that before long, we'll also have to have the story that Greg Weisman was talking about, where Goliath is apparently captured but a lot of the city authorities question whether they should put him on trial, because most of them (like Margot Yale) think that gargoyles are just wild animals. (The story that "And Justice for All" should have been, but isn't.)

5. There should be some exploration of the changes made to the clan at the end of "Phoenix". Not only are Coldstone and Coldfire back, but we have three new members - Katana, Nashville, and Fu-Dog - to learn more about. And Brooklyn's now much older than Lex and Broadway; that should certainly provide some great drama. (We got a taste of it in "A Handful of Thorns", even though it isn't canon.) Not to mention that the clan will probably be building a new rookery in the castle for Egwardo (since the old rookery wasn't transported to the Eyrie Building along with the rest of Castle Wyvern, being a cave below the castle rather than part of the castle itself). Fortunately, it doesn't need to be a large one, since they've only one egg - though in a little over ten years' time, there might need to be room for more.

6. We know that Greg also planned stories about Halcyon Renard's death and about at least one of the tricksters from Avalon trying to kidnap Alex. And there's Demona, too; what will she be doing in the aftermath of "Hunter's Moon", besides recovering the Praying Gargoyle's crystal? (Obviously hiding, since she's allowed Thailog to regain control of Nightstone - but eventually, she'll be doing more than that.) And there's Thailog and Sevarius's plans for all that genetic material they took from the gargoyles in "Bash" - as people have said before, we could be in for a genuine Clone War in the Gargoyles Universe.

Quite a bit. Let's hope that SLG gets to do further graphic novels, so that those stories can be told. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Any Futurama fans see the latest movie "Into the Wild Green Yonder"? The Tazmanian Tigers are spoke of and shown in the movie very briefly.
Anthony Tini

I agree.. not to mention Hyenas and Tazzie Tigers aren't canids but resmeble them.. as do Gargbeasts.. ( at least Bronx does)

I had another thought yesterday about the Tazmanian Tiger. I've mentioned before my suspicion that he'll be the new member of the Ultra-Pack when it forms, since he fits the tone (criminality combined with a "pack animal" moniker - though I don't know if thylacines really were pack animals). But then something else came to me.

Coyote was Fox's successor in the Pack, and he didn't just echo her in being named after a wild canid. Both foxes and coyotes have a reputation in legend and folklore for cunning, even becoming trickster figures (Reynard the Fox, Coyote the Trickster).

The new member of the Ultra-Pack would clearly be Dingo's successor, in the same way that Coyote was Fox's. Dingo and the Tazmanian Tiger both come from the same part of the world, Australia and its environs (such as Tasmania). They even did battle in Sydney. So the Tazmanian Tiger would parallel Dingo in the same way that Coyote paralleled Fox.

Todd Jensen

And away we go on with the show!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>^^)> Gargoyles cards...


lol, I will assume I am either seventh or 8th. Anyway, I never posted this early!

Good job on helping out SLG get those votes. Last I saw they were up to 95! Yay! Hope they make it to the next round.

Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Sixth! Kanye West is a douche! Lady Gaga and Pink are amazing!

Dinsey CAN'T discourage GAY DAYS. Why? Do you nknow what kind of back-lash they'd get from the Gay Community? Belive me, we don't need that kind of bad publicity, like we don't allow Gays in or what ever.

(And by "we" I do mean Disney and I since I, owning 10 shares of Disney Stock, I do own Disney. Techinically. Sort of. The more shares I can puirchase, the closer I can come to helping get Gargs going... at least on DVD. But I need A LOT more shares. It helps that I am allowed to go to the annual shareholder's meeting... They still won't allow me into Disney land free yet... :/)

battle Beast - [SUPPORT SLG]
That is all I will say.

battle Beast - [SUPPORT SLG]
That is all I will say.

That is the one nice thing about being laid off. Since I no longer have to get up at 4 AM, I'm still awake in time to claim fourth.
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"

Nix that -- Third! d:
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Desert Coyote - [<- Buy my book, please?]
The Gargfic writer formerly known as Coyote the Bando